The Marriott,Slaterville City Oral History Collection was created by the residents of the town to document their history. Each participant was provided with a list of questions asking for; stories about their childhood, schools they attended, stories about their parents and grand,parents, activities they enjoyed, fashions they remember, difficulties or traumas they may have dealt with, and memories of community and church leaders. This endeavor has left behind rich histories, stories and important information regarding the history of the Marriott,Slaterville area. ; 31p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in.; 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Abstract: This is an oral history of Julian Morris Powell. It was conducted September 23, 2007 and concerns her recollections of the history of the Marriott-Slaterville area. JP: I am Julian Morris Powell. I was born January 20th, 1911. I am getting a little older now. I am ninety-six years old. I don't think quite as fast as I used to. My dad was Thomas Ezra Powell and my mother was Catherine Morris Powell. I am the only child born of the two of them. I don't have any full brothers or sisters. My dad had a family and his wife passed away, my mother and him lived in the Marriott ward close together for years and years and their partners had left and my dad had six children and my mother had three. They married, and I am the only child of that marriage. Dad and mother and ten children and I was the youngest of any of them. Here is a picture of the Marriott ward basketball team. I will talk real short about them. Well over here in this left side is Clyde Hipwell. His dad Bill, moved over there from West Weber, and his mother was born and raised in Marriott where he was born. Deloss Bingham was the son of Dell Bingham. He was born in Marriott and grew up there and lived there all his life. His mother died when he and Delbert were just young children. The other one is Cornelius DeFriez. He is next to the youngest in the big family of the DeFriez family. He played basketball with us for maybe a year or two, but not too much. The next one is Marvin Buck. He was born and raised in Marriott, a son of Luther and Sara Buck. He lived there all his life until a few years after he was married. The next one is Euki DeFriez. He played with us for several years. He is an exceptionally good ball player. I would have to say at this point that he was the best athlete in the DeFriez famiy. There were quite a few of them and they were tall but he played with us several years and a good all around player and fast man. The next one is Clyde Morris. He played with us some and then he went and played up at the Agricultural College in Logan. He and his brother and Delbert Bingham went up and played and won the championship up here in high school. Then they went up and played, the four of them, up in the Utah State Agricultural College and they won the championship up there. The other DeFriez one that I said was Wesley and he played with us several years. The next one is Wayne Stanger. He played with us a few years. The next on is myself. We went to the Salt Lake tournament eight consecutive years and then the war came on and we were out for a couple of years. Then we went back again and I coached the Marriott team and we went to Salt Lake for the finals eight consecutive years and then we went back another two or three years. The next one is Elmer Slater. He didn't play with us too much. He was kind of short and small but he was always on the job and did the best that he knew to do. The one sitting over in this left hand corner was Delbert Bingham and the one on the right hand side down was Jay Clifford Blair. He coached us for several years. We went up here in Weber and Ogden City and we went down there under his direction as the coach for about five years. Then he quit and I took over as a player and the coach for several years. Clifford was an exceptionally good athlete and he played for the Farm Bureau for Marriott. The Farm Bureau league has one of the best catchers in Weber County. Well this was a good team. This picture doesn't have one of the better players that was on the team named Sam DeFriez. He wasn't as fast as some of the players but he was real tall and he was real strong. A lot of times he would never come back on defense. We played a five man defense and a lot of times he would never come back on defense because he would stay close to the basket and very few times he would miss. He shot if he was close to the basket. One of the best players—he didn't play with us too many years, but when he did play I would say he was the best score man that we had. We were playing up in the Weber gym up 24th street in a tournament and he said to me, "When I put up one finger I want the ball and I want it now." He put up his finger for me to throw it and get him the ball. He was in a good position to score and a kid from up in the balcony hollered down, Sam and his family all came here from Holland and this kid from up in the balcony hollered down and said, "Where's your wooden shoes?" He turned to look up there to shake his fist at them and I had let the ball go. The ball hit him right on the side of the head and dropped him just hard right down, and he hit on his shoulder. I ran over to him and rubbed him and got him up, and he played the rest of the game but he hit right on his shoulder. I thought maybe it had hit his head but it didn't. It knocked him flat down. He was an exceptionally big man and a good player. One time I was playing and about five or six players were under the basket pushing it up trying to get it in, he didn't jump, he stood there and he had his one leg bent and I just ran in and the ball was up bouncing around the basket. I ran in and I stepped right just above his knee right on his leg with a basketball rubber shoe and tipped the ball to his brother Euki and he scored. Sam come back and was rubbing his leg. He said, "I wonder what went wrong with my leg." But I had stepped on it with a rubber sole and it had kind of burned his leg but he was an exceptionally good player. Never to give up. We went down eight consecutive years from this area to play in the church finals in Salt Lake. We went eight consecutive years and then missed a few. We were playing and they notified us—I was coaching them then—and they said that they had one too many teams in the tournament at Salt Lake for the finals. Then we'd flip a coin to see if we went or if we didn't go. I said, "Well who is the other team?" And they said, "You and a basketball team from Pocatello, Utah were tied to go in," and it was up to one of us to go. He said, "Would you like to flip a coin?" And I said, "No. Send them down and we will play them." They sent them down and we beat them. Then one time, nothing to do with the church basketball but they had a tournament up at Malad, Idaho and they sent a team from down here up there. They went up for one night and played at Malad. Marriott got beat so the kid that was going to drive that day said he wasn't going up to play anymore because they got beat. So we had a guy working there, his name was Lee Dopp. He had his car in the shop getting it fixed and they would give him a V8 Ford. So we got our heads together and Clyde and Floyd Morris and Delbert Bingham, and Riley Shaw who was my brother-in-law and me. We had to drive fast to get up there to play that afternoon. We didn't know we were going until noon. We drove up to Malad and played in a tournament there and we played the Fort Hall Braves and we beat them in the afternoon and we went out and got something to eat and came back and played the Mendon Wildcats again that night for the championship. We beat the game in the afternoon and we won the next one again at night. When we came back they had fixed his car from the Ford motor company and they came out to bring his car back to him and his wife said, "Well he is out of town." They said, "Where is he?" She said, "He is in Malad." They said, "Oh he can't take that car across the state line!" But we came back, we got back after midnight. We went up the next morning to the Ford motor company and I said well we was broke down and this guy took us up there and brought us back and they said, "Okay." They wouldn't press any charges against us. While we were in the process of playing a lot of basketball for the church, some professional teams would come here and play. Sometimes we would play them a full game and sometimes we would only play them a half. But they were professional players. A team came from a clothing store in Wichita, Kansas and they were all white players. I have never seen a team with as pretty of suits as they had on. They were professionals and we played them and they liked to shoot long shots and not play any rough stuff. I don't think I ever did see them shoot a long shot that went in. It just seemed like they didn't score up close and they were a professional team. They would pass the ball around in back of their selves and to another player and that was the best team that we did play, the Wichita Kansas Clothers. Then we played the Iowa Ghosts. They were all black and they were traveling across the country. We played them maybe two or three consecutive years. They would come through and they would call and say they would be here on certain dates and they would pick someone and we played them. The center's name was Sue K. Simmons and we both got the ball in the center of the floor so the referee called a tie up ball. He was about seven feet tall. I crouched down just a little bit, and I thought well maybe if I jump as hard as I can jump he will stay flat footed and just tap it. Maybe I can jump as far as he would just reach and I could block the ball. So I crouched down and when the referee blew the whistle to start I jumped as high as he stood flat footed and he just reached out with his right hand and put it around me and put me right around his hip and reached up with the other hand and knocked it down to one of his players. His name was Sue K. Simmons of the Iowa Ghosts. The Globe Trotters were all black and we played them several times, when they were traveling through, particularly toward California. They would call in here and sometimes we would play them a full game and sometimes we'd only play them a half game, but they were all professional players. We tried to beat them but we never could come close in doing it. One—I can't remember what his name was now—he was black and little and he was a guard. He went out around me, I was over close to the side and about half way down the gym, and he stepped right out around me and down to the basket. A little later in the game he wanted to do the same thing and he came right around the sideline dribbling and when he went to go out around I just leaned over and caught him on my right shoulder and he lit about the third bench up on the bleachers. I can't recall his name right now. He was a play guard and was fast but he wasn't that big. One time when we were playing mutual ball and going, like I said, eight consecutive years down to Salt Lake and after that we went a few years after, after the war. We had a good team. The Marriott family had moved up in the twelfth ward, and it came our turn to play them to see who was going to Salt Lake, and it happened to be my Aunt Nell Marriott's birthday that day and so they said, well, they would close her birthday a little earlier in the evening because they wanted to go to the ball game because Marriott was going to play the twelfth ward. They brought a couple of guys down to Salt Lake to play with them and when we were in there warming up that night Deloss Bingham came over to me and he said, "Did you see the shoes that Russell Marriott has got on?" And I said, "No." I looked at his shoes, we were just getting ready to play them and warming up and he said, "He has got all leather shoes on. I have never seen anyone with all leather basketball shoes on." I said, "Well, we don't care what kind of shoes he has got on but we have got to beat them." So we started to play. Russell was a good player. He was left-handed and he liked to go up and play next to the wall on the outside, just inside the boundary and then cut in to the basket and he would shoot with his left hand and he was hard to guard. We were well aware of that fact and they had one of their best players with him. I remember his name was Fred Shots. He was an exceptionally good player and Russell was expecting him to score real well. He had played with us several years and we knew where he liked to play. He liked to go up the left side and stay just inside and then come in and scores with his left hand and to reach over a lot of times you would foul him. But we were aware of that so before he would cut in to the basket we would travel right along the side of him and crowd him a little bit so he couldn't get that left hand up. He would have to cross over. Sometimes he would lose the ball and he would whirl around. When he went to do anything that was real hard for him to do he would always stick his tongue out to the side like that. He would stop and stick his tongue out and whirl around with his fist but by the time he got turned around everybody would be gone. He would turn around several times with his tongue out, biting and swing with his right hand because we wouldn't let him score with his left. We beat them and we got four points ahead of them right on the start and then they never did catch us. Just a little while before the end of the game they put Woodrow in and he was a younger one, they put him in but he only played a couple of minutes and they took him out. We never did get behind. We stayed ahead of them all the way through. They had a cheering crew there and a group of young people in a section for the twelfth ward and they were really trained to cheer for them. But when the game was over, Russell's dad, Will Marriott, he was there sitting with the twelfth ward. They had just moved in the twelfth ward about a year before that. We all had suits on with Marriott written across them. When the ball game ended and we were still ahead of them, we stayed ahead of them all the way through. Russell's dad, who was my uncle, got up and was real cold and he went down off of the bleachers a little ways and with his hat in one hand and his overcoat over his arm on the other and turned and walked in front of the twelfth ward cheering crew and he said, "What the hell is the trouble? Can't anybody smile?" And then he came over and congratulated us for beating them. I always thought that he wanted us to win although he had moved into the twelfth ward. We had his name Marriott wrote right across our suits. I was always of the opinion that he was glad that we beat the twelfth ward but he came over and congratulated us and then smiled and walked out of the gym. It was cold that night. There were only about sixty-five families in the Marriott ward. They had a dance hall there and a stage in the one end. They took that stage out and that gave us about another thirty feet so it was a pretty good sized gym for us to play in. Some of the toughest teams we had to play in the league for the mutual was probably North Ogden and Plain City and the Eighth Ward of Ogden, the Fourth Ward of Ogden, and the Seventeenth Ward of Ogden. Other than the Plain City—they were all pretty well city wards. They had a big group of people to pick from because they were big wards. And we only had about sixty-five families in the ward. Sometimes they had good players and they would find out where the best team was and so they could go over and rent an apartment. Some of them were married guys and some of them were single. They would go and rent apartments in that ward so they could play with them. One night I remembered I was playing and Clifford Blair was coaching us for several years. I don't remember right now just who we were playing but we were getting to the end of the game and we were only three or four points ahead and Clifford called a timeout. Deloss Bingham was playing forward, he was not very big but he was fast and a good scorer. Coach called a timeout and we went over to see what he wanted and we were real close. We were just a few points ahead of them. He said to Deloss Bingham, "What the hell is wrong with you? Why aren't you going like you are usually doing?" He said, "I got the skin off of my foot and I have got a sore foot." And Clifford said, "You'll go back in and forget you got a damn foot!" Now that is the kind of coaching we did get. He came back in and we won the ball. We played four nights to get to go and we had to win. I played the first night and I turned an ankle. That was the only time in all of the time I have played that I ever turned an ankle, but I turned an ankle that night and we still won the ball game. The next morning I went up to Doctor Seidner. He was in the office and I pulled off my shoe and I said, "Can you see anything wrong with my ankle here or what you can do for it?" He said, "I don't see much of anything wrong with it." So I thanked him and pulled my shoe on and walked down the hall to Doctor Clark Rich. Now his dad was a doctor before him, Ezra and Edward Rich. They were half brothers but they were both doctors. Technically Ezra Rich came to our house when I was born to deliver me. But I walked down the hall and his son Clark Rich was the only one in his chair. It was in the morning and he was looking at the early newspaper. I went in and pulled my shoe off and I said, "Can you see anything wrong with my ankle?" He said, "A blind man could see what is wrong with that!" So he took a bandage and bandaged it up and he said, "Now I'll undo that and you watch how I do it. You bring it up the outside; you take it down on the inside and bring it up on the outside." And he banded it up again. He said, "I'll tie that up for you and you keep this, I won't put it that tight." Then he said, "Tonight, when you get ready to play you tighten that up real tight and at the half your foot will maybe go a little numb. At the half you come out and loosen it and then before you go back in, tighten it back up again. Always pull it up from the outside out." I did that and I played alright and at the half I loosened it a little and pulled it back up. It did get a little numb but I played that night and went down to Salt Lake and played in the tournament. It never bothered me; I just tied it up every night for the rest of the season. I was born in 1911 and World War I with Germany was in 1918 and so I was seven years old when the war was on. They took one of my brothers. Carl went up to Logan to the training camp and Clifford Blair, he was twenty-one on the fourth of June. He had to register on the fifth of June. He said, "Oh why couldn't I have been born later and I wouldn't have had to register?" When that war came on, I was only seven years old, but we had a lot of sugar beets and they took him and Frank Tribe who was my oldest sister's husband. Guy Wecker was my other sister's husband, and Clifford Blair and then a lot of the men of our neighbors in our community, took them in World War I. They took them in the late summer. My mother went up and got a letter. I remember going with her, I was seven years old and we went up in the Eccles Building and saw Caleb Marriott. He had just graduated and opened an office as an attorney. My mother had been to an attorney and wrote a letter to the government to see if Clifford could come home to harvest the sugar beets. We never did hear from them so we went in the Eccles Building and kicked on the door. Caleb Marriott had just graduated and he was admitted to the bar. He would take his lunch with him, eat his lunch, and then he would take a nap for an hour. The door was locked but his dad said he would be there. So I went there with my mother and I kicked on the door. I remember kicking on it with my shoe and he opened the door and he had taken a nap. It was just after lunch. My mother went in and told him what we wanted and he said, "I will write a letter." He wrote a letter and in two weeks Clifford came home. He was in Presidio, in California in the camp. He sent that letter there and he released him and he came home. We got all the sugar beets out and then he went back. Well when—I was going to tell you about General Pershing. When I went there with my mother when they marched them all from 24th street down and down 25th and into the railroad yards, I would guess that they must have had 150 men in uniform, young ones that they had picked up then. My brother and our neighbors were among them. I went with my mother and they marched them down off of the hill and into the railroad yards. They had a passenger train there and it had bars on the window. They didn't let them stop to speak. You didn't bother them at all. They had officers with them and they stayed right in line. They walked up the steps and into these cars, a whole trainload of them with bars on the windows. I stood there with my mother and I know I cried. I cried a little bit because I thought I would never see them again with the bars on the windows. They went to the camp and later on in the early fall, they sent General Pershing. "General Pershing is coming to town! He'll be at the Depot and he'll talk shortly." I pleaded with my mother and we went with a buggy and a horse, tied it up, and then walked over to the Ogden Depot on 25th street. We waited just about five minutes and they switched the car. They had a wooden platform there on wheels that they had made. It was just a platform on wheels but it was high. They pulled the passenger car in and it stopped right in front of us and a couple of men went over and wheeled this wooden platform over to the door and they opened the door on the passenger train and General Pershing walked out onto that platform. He had all the ribbons and the citations on his suit. He didn't have a hat on, he was gray-headed. He was a medium sized man and he walked out on that step and he said, "We are going to end the war and we are going to send your boys home." I thought that was the best news that I had ever heard. He talked for, oh, maybe two or three minutes at the most, then he waved goodbye and stepped back in and they moved the car I guess to some other place for him to speak. I waited for that time and sometime after—that was in about August I'd say and along in November all the whistles started to blow. There weren't many cars around then but there were a few. They were honking the horns but there were a lot of whistles blowing in Ogden City and you could hear them out where we lived in Marriott, just down 12th street. Our family was gone working on milk routes and farming and whatnot. Just my mother and I were home. She said, "The operator won't talk to you on the phone, so you go catch that gray horse and go from where we live over across 12th street and the railroad track over to 17th street and ask Mrs. Wecker." Her boy was Guy Wecker and he had married my sister before he went in the military. "You go over and ask Mrs. Wecker if she can get the operator to tell her what the whistles are and the trains blowing." So I got on the horse and rode over there and they had a little fence up in front of their house. Her daughter was there and she said, "What can I do for you?" I said, "I want to talk to your mother." So her mother came out on the sidewalk and I said, "I want to know if you can call the operator and find out what all the horns are blowing and all the whistles are blowing." She said, "You tell your mother that you can't talk to the operator, but she just keeps saying, 'They have caught the Kaiser.' And then in a second or two she'd say, 'They caught the Kaiser.'" So I said, "But she wants to know what the whistles are." And she said, "Well you tell her that they have caught the Kaiser." So I went on home and my mother was standing in the yard by the house as I rode in on this old gray horse. She came right over to the horse and she said, "What did she say?" I said, "She said to tell you that they have caught the Kaiser." She put up her hand and smiled all over. She said, "The war is going to end. The Kaiser is the head of the German army and they have gotten him so the war is going to end." I thought that was the happiest time that I had. Sure enough, in about December, just about Christmas time, they shipped those boys from our community and a lot of other soldiers home. They were home for Christmas. Years after that, I was seven years old then, and when I was about sixteen or so I was in a meeting and they said, "Other than your dads or your fathers, who would you think was the greatest man that you ever saw or talked to?" I guess there was about fifteen in that circle and I was almost to the end, not quite, and they went around. When they come to me I said, "It was General Pershing. He was the best man I ever knew and ever did see." They said, "You didn't know General Pershing." And I said, "Yes, I did. I went up to the train and he walked out on the little platform and he said, 'We are going to end the war.' That was in about October and then in November, about a month or so later, I guess that was about August and I said, "He said we are going to end the war and send your boys home." I said I thought he was the greatest man I had ever heard speak. If I knew the future, like I remember the past I would be pretty smart. It isn't hard for me—at times I recall lots of things that have happened in the past and I grew up pretty active. Like I said, when the war was on I was seven years old and when it ended I'd had a birthday and the war ended in 1918 so I was only seven years old that winter. Then coming in the spring in January I became eight years old. I was active, and we had a big family, four girls and six boys. I don't have any full brothers or sisters. My dad lost his wife, she died with a heart attack and my mother married my dad and I was born when she was thirty-four years old. She had three children and he had six. They had known each other, born and raised in the same ward. They decided they would get married. They had lost their partners so I was the tenth child. When I was a kid I enjoyed growing up with this family. Although I was on one side and some on the other, that didn't bother me and didn't seem to all the way through my life. I respected them as my full brothers and sisters. My oldest sister on my dad's side was Ethel and she used to curl my hair. I was blonde. I had kind of golden colored hair and she used to put it up. They didn't have bobby pins and stuff like that then, they had hair pins. She used to tear strips of cloth and put my hair up in curls. When I got three years old I thought maybe somebody would think I was a girl, so I said, "I guess I had better go have my hair cut." My mother took me up the next morning and just down 24th street, right by the Eccles Building there was a barber shop, a big long barber shop. I walked in there and climbed in the first chair. It was in the morning. The barber got a board and put it across the arms of the chair and set me up on there so he could reach me. He cut my curls off and laid them all in an empty chocolate box. He laid it in there and wrapped it up and tied a string around it. That was the first cut I had ever had. I guess I was about three years old. I took the box, and when I went home I had this box under my arm. I handed it to my sister Ethel; she is the one that always curled my hair. I handed it to her and she cut the string on it and undid it and my curls were all laying kind of golden color in there and she cried. She put her arm around me and she cried because that was the first hair cut I ever had. Like I say, I was born in Marriott in 1911 and I don't remember much about Ogden City until I was about three years old. We had a dairy farm and a crop farm and whatnot and ran that all with the horses on iron towered wagons. My dad had two retail routes and two wholesale routes. There was no refrigeration then. You had to pack things in ice in the summer and cover them in the winter to keep them from freezing. When we would go into town—in Ogden City we sold all the milk. My dad had a big herd of cows and then he bought a lot of milk. Ten gallon cans and then processed it. We delivered that into Ogden. You might say we had to put ice in the bottom of the wagons in the summer because the jarring of the wagon would churn the bottles of cream and we'd have whipping cream and coffee cream and milk. The jar of the wagons would shake that whipping cream and when you would get it into town it would have about an inch or half inch of yellow butter on top. We had to pad those wagons all up with canvas and then put ice on them or whatever to keep them cold in the summer and keep them from freezing in the winter—drove them all with the horse wagons. Then there were a few grocery stores around and I remember going to town once in awhile with my mother. We drove a horse and buggy, and up in the front was a dashboard and you had a lap robe you threw over your legs, and there was a socket where you could put the whip if you had one, and we drove a single horse on that buggy. It had a top on to keep the storm off you and put a lap robe on you, then go into town and tie them up on the side of Washington Boulevard. When the circus would come to town, a man would come along on his bicycle and he said, "Take care of the horses because the elephants are coming." People didn't want the horses jumping around. I thought that it wasn't the elephants and he wouldn't go any farther. He'd go to the South or the North but he wouldn't go any farther up to the circus grounds. He could smell those animals. When we were downtown there were a few grocery stores here and there. Henry Tribe ran a grocery store and it was out this way in Ogden. As you went over there was another grocery store. Then there was somewhere—what was the name of them—Piggly Wiggly. My brother Carl decided he was going to go and get a job and he went to work and they gave him a job in the store, Piggly Wiggly's but he only stayed there about two months. He said all he was doing was stacking shelves. Piggly Wiggly's was in and then Safeways. But the grocery stores were far apart and then they were long. There were a lot of people on the street then. Very few cars, maybe a car here and there, maybe a Ford car and then a Buick car, a few long but very few cars. At the grocery stores a few and the clothing stores, clothing store—there was one on the West side of Washington—it was called the Golden Rule Store. It was a clothing store. Wright's was another store on the northwest corner of 24th street. Wright's clothing store was across the street from the Eccles Building which is still there. Bank buildings then weren't there. A few grocery stores, a lot of clothing stores. It was wet until 1918, and then it was against the law to sell or have liquor or whiskey. Of course, there was some bootlegging going on where they made their own whiskey and sold it. As I grew up as a kid, going along the sidewalk, there were a lot of people walking on the sidewalk and not many vehicles, so they would be walking along the street and it wouldn't be anything to see two or three men sitting with their feet in the gutter, they would be sitting there drunk and then you would go over here a ways farther and there would be a few more. Then they had policeman come along. They didn't take them in all of them, but they tried to keep the streets cleared up. Then a lady would come along and maybe have a package in one hand and a couple of kids trailing along her side. She would stop a young man here or there and ask them if he would go into the saloon—saloons were over there where you would buy whiskey and drink. This was just before 1918 and she would ask them, "Would you go in and see if you can get my husband to come." They would go in and sometimes they would go in and sit at the bar and other times they would bring them out and they were wobbling, they were drunk, and sometimes they couldn't get them to come out. It wasn't anything to go along the street and have several drunks on Washington Avenue. You don't see that now. Lots of people walking. Like I say, 1918 it went dry so they couldn't have any alcohol. Then in Ogden City, 25th street was noted as one of the special streets in Ogden. The trains stopped—all the passenger trains then had a big station just below Wall. You walked off of Wall onto a big passenger—oh it was five hundred feet long and two hundred feet wide where you went to go in and seats were all in there where you went in to wait for the train to go out of town or for one to come in and meet people and then they came. There was hotel right on the corner of 25th and Wall and they had a lot of business in there for people that rode the passenger trains and then came up the street and the Marriott Hotel and then you'd get up farther and the Broom hotel was there. That was a prominent hotel on 25th street, the upper part. Then across the street, the skyscrapers you might say went in as a hotel over across Washington. It wasn't anything then to see quite a few people. There were saloons all over—three along 25th street and a couple or three along Washington. That all "went dry." Then in just a few years they come along with "three-two beer." Old man Becker was in the Brewery business in the eastern states and he and his boys Gus Becker and Albert Becker. He had come down and opened a brewery on about 21st and Lincoln. There was no Wall Avenue come across there. He opened a brewery in there and they run that and they were allowed to make "three-two beer." So he opened that and built the brewery there. He first put it in and they sold Becco, didn't have any alcohol in it but it had Becker's Becco. The people drank that. He sold quite a lot of that. People thought that that helped their health and the doctor's recommended it for some people. Then they made all kinds of soda water and different brands of soda water there. Then two percent beer came in. So they had to make that. We had a contract with them to haul all the malt that was there—it was a three story building, the first one was the ground floor and then on the second was the big kettle, it was as big as these two rooms and that is where they brewed it. The next one was the barley and the hops and that. They had a big copper kettle there and they made that. You could see the thing going out of the top, little pipes going out where the alcohol went out. That was a "three-two beer." It couldn't test any more than that. They brought one of their son-in-laws from California and he was a doctor in California. He came in and they put him in the chemistry room. He had to test it so it couldn't go over three-two in two-three beer—two-three I guess it was. You would go into a store and as soon, and as you went in they had a clerk who would come, the same in the grocery stores. In the clothing stores someone would wait on you as soon as you went in—try to sell you a suit of clothes or a pair of shoes. The best shoes you could buy were five dollars. Suits would cost you maybe thirty dollars for a suit of clothes, as good of clothes that you could buy. Shirts and whatnot—people wore shirts and then they had a collar—you brought a collar and put it around you and fastened a little brass button here and then you would put the necktie on. The shirts you would buy didn't have any collars, work shirts did, but the dress shirts never had any collar on it. They would just come around and button here—then you put a tie on top of that. It was quite a job for our family to keep all the collars and all the shirts—they had to wash them and iron them out and then they put the tie on top of that. Maybe wear the shirt a couple of times with the collars. I remember several of the stores that came along, like Piggly Wiggly and Safeway and others. Then there was—I remember the Egyptian theatre. It was later in years and they had the stars all show up in the ceiling. The Peery's owned the Egyptian and the Ogden Theater and Glassman's owned the Orpheum Theater and the Alhambra was down on Keisel Avenue. You would go to the shows and it would cost you—when I was a kid it would cost you fifteen cents to get in. Adults were about thirty-five cents to get in to the shows. I remember when Willard Marriott went back to Washington D.C., he met his wife Anna Sheets. He met her in the University of Utah. He had been on a mission. He went on a mission and when he came back he went to Weber Academy here and Aaron Tracy was the President then. When he came back they had closed that and he went down to the University of Utah. There is where Willard Marriott met Anna Sheets. She was going to the University of Utah and he met her there, got acquainted with her and he married her. Before he married her he bought a new model-T Ford and went up north and sold woolen goods, most of it from the Utah Woolen Mills in Salt Lake where they took the wool and refined it and made woolen clothes. He went up there and stayed all summer. When he came back from his mission he went up there and stayed all summer and sold woolen clothing and blankets and everything. That is where he met his wife and then he came back and went up again and then he got married and I remember him, Willard Marriott, stopping at our house in the morning—it was about eight o'clock in the morning—and he had a model-T. He had come in and my mother and I walked out to his car with him and Anna Sheets was sitting in this model-T and my mother said to him, "Have you got good tires on this car?" I walked around it and I couldn't see a bit of tread on any of them. They were all bald tires. She was sitting in the seat there but we wished him well. Now here is what he said and I shouldn't tell you this but I will anyway. He wouldn't care. My mother said, "Well that is a long ways to drive this model-T to Washington D.C." He had come from up north and a lot of places that he went, he couldn't collect his money where he had sold clothing and blankets and things. When he came back he said, "Mrs. Sheets," that would be his mother-in-law, "gave me five hundred dollars and said you can use that and go on your honeymoon from here to Washington D.C." So he said, "I have plenty of money." Anna Sheets mother gave him five hundred dollars. Now that is what he said right there in front of our house. They were going to drive this model-T back there and go on their honeymoon. He went back there and he and another man, Sterling Colton, went back to Washington D.C. and opened the A & W Rootbeer stands. Russell and I once in awhile we'd go in to town and walk over by the Egyptian Theatre and they had a barrel going around of A & W Rootbeer. Once in awhile Willard would send a letter, an envelope that would have some A & W tickets in there. We'd go in there and get a couple of mugs of A & W Rootbeer on the tickets he would send for it. That was quite a treat to go in and get free A & W Rootbeers. Ogden City has grown in the last several years, then they put the mall in and it fell apart and there is a lot of Ogden City that has moved into the upper bench and over into Riverdale and out into places. Ogden City isn't anything like it used to be. They put the big mall in there and then they couldn't make it financially. Other than the banks—the city itself has slipped away. Years and years ago, 25th street was well known all over the country. The trains would come in and stopped in the depot at 25th and Wall. Then people went up and there were several hotels in there and restaurants. When you got almost to Washington, right there by Kiesel Avenue, by Washington and Kiesel, was a place opened by two men, it was a long restaurant. It was Ross and Jack's Burger with spuds for a quarter. They had more business there than they could take care of hardly. You could go any time of the day or the night and they had customers there. My dad furnished them all the dairy products for that place. It was Ross and Jacks and you got a big hamburger, potatoes and gravy, and a vegetable for a quarter. That is what it was advertised—Ross and Jacks dinner for twenty-five cents. You got a big hamburger, the potatoes and gravy and a vegetable for twenty-five cents. Ketchup and other things were all sitting there, you could help yourself to them. I remember they had a sign there one time it had come out and it said, "Go easy on the butter boys, it is forty cents a pound." It was a long restaurant, the cash register in the front and rows down here and clear down there, and there were people there—twenty-five cents. J. W. Randall came and wanted me to put in one hundred and thirty thousand ton of sugar beets in two big piles. They were a half a block long and eighteen feet high. I told him, "I don't want to." He said, "Yes, you put them in." And I put in one hundred and thirty thousand ton of beets in with beet forks, with just men by hand. He said, "Don't hire all the guys." The depression was on then. "Try to hire them all around Weber County where they have grown sugar beets." I finally agreed to do it and I paid those men four dollars and twenty cents a day. The twenty cents went for insurance. Each one was insured for everything for twenty cents. They got four dollars and they worked for eight hours. I put that in and he said, "Don't hire everybody in your community, hire them all around Weber County." I had to turn guys down and they put it on an endless belt, here was the pile a half a block long and another one here. It had a pipe flume with the top lids, you took them off. The water would run fast, pumping it and it circulated and washed the beets in and we put them on a belt and they went over and dumped into this flume. I put a hundred thirty thousand ton of beets in with beet forks. Not one man did I ever have to correct, never had one quit, never had one get sick, never had one get hurt, and I never told one he had to do more work or correct him in his throwing. It never stormed. We put them in, through all of November, the factory guy would look up there and if you would watch the moon, the moon will be up here and as it goes down it isn't the moon. It looks like it has turned but it hasn't. He would look up at the moon and say, "That is a wet moon, you'll have to hurry Juke, it is going to storm." We had a platform and you'd come up here and it had a tent of canvas. So if it did storm they were under it. It had a little caterpillar electric on each end of it. It was as long as the pile of beets was wide. It had a little electric caterpillar end. Steve Crowley worked for the sugar company and he stayed and when they would throw the beets in from here to there and have to reach for them, it was electric and he'd put it in and it would crawl up close to the pile. When they reached them—a lot of those guys would sit with their rump right on the edge. It had a four by four along here and a belt, the belt kept going and they would sit right with their butt on that and throw those beets on. That was in 1935, it was the year Sharon was born. The year that Franklin D. Roosevelt took the presidential election by a landslide, was in November of 1932. Remember that the President goes in on an even year. He goes in on '32, '36, and right on up. When they picked those potatoes up I gave them six sacks, six hundred pounds apiece. Some worked 'til noon and they got three hundred pounds. They were red bliss potatoes, just perfect and I said to them when they left that night at five o'clock, it would have been the day before Election Day and the night after election in 1932 it started to snow. You never saw the ground until spring. That was the toughest winter I ever saw. They went over and voted and that night they put Franklin D. in and the next day we got through. The price of potatoes—I took them out in the spring, I carried them upstairs, downstairs, Wesley Hewitt didn't have a job and he lived in a house that charged him seven dollars a month. He couldn't pay the rent so he worked it out. We delivered those potatoes, upstairs, downstairs, traded them in for groceries. They were thirty cents for a hundred pound bag. Uncle Will Marriott moved into town. They had moved into town off of the farm and he come to me and he said, "Do you want to rent the lower farm?" I said, "Well yes I would rent it." So I rented that lower farm for him. I put it all in sugar beets, and if you crowd it there was seventeen acres. The Warren canal ran along the east end and the riverbed was on that end. I ran them from there right through. I put that into sugar beets and I got three dollars and eighty-five cents a ton for them. Now, earlier, a few years before that, the sugar beets were up to twelve dollars and they stayed there. My dad was a bishop for a dozen years. My mother and my dad went down to conference and when they came back we had a long table and there was twelve of us at the table. I sat at the far end and my dad sat at the head end. When they were there one of our family said, "Well what did they tell you at conference?" My mother said, "President Smith,"—Joseph Fielding was the President—he got up and he said, "If you are in debt, get out as fast as you can and if you are not in debt, stay out because the price is going to go down." Sugar beets were twelve dollars a ton. We had every piece of ground around in sugar beets. In fact, we got a furlough for Clifford to come home and dig sugar beets in September. They were twelve dollars a ton, and they started going down in 1932, Uncle Will and Aunt Nell Marriott and Russell and them had all moved into town. They had moved up to the 12th Ward. The spring of 1932 I put it all in sugar beets, seventeen acres and I got three dollars and eighty-five cents a ton for them. I grew that whole field down there and I got a check for eleven hundred and something dollars, I had a good crop. I dug those potatoes and quit and went down and hauled beets for everybody. I hauled over sixteen hundred ton of beets on a 1932 Chevrolet truck and I loaded them all with beet forks. I hauled them beets in and I had almost three hundred ton and I got a check. When he came, they were all good beets and I dug these potatoes and quit and went down and the next day and that night I finished the potatoes it snowed. It started to blow from the east and it snowed. I still had about four acres of sugar beets, I left them right by the road, right on this end and I had to dig them in the snow. I went down the next morning and I had four—this is a coincidence—I had four toppers, topped them all by hand and put them in wind rows. I had two red-headed guys, Wesley Hewitt and the Dana kid. I had Joe and Bill Elmer, they lived on 17th street and were both married men. These two topped the row and these two topped the row and I drove right down the middle of them. I put a team of horses on the truck and I never drove them. They were good horses, I had used them all fall. They were the last beets I got out. Here is the seat, the mirror stuck out here, I hung the lines on the mirror and I loaded this corner and a man here and then the two would throw, all with beet forks. Guys would come and say, "I'll come on and drive those horses for you." I would say, "Nope we don't talk to them." I left them standing, I got out right here, didn't shut the door, leave it open, when I got in all I would do is touch the gas and they just knew to go. They would start to pull and when I let the gas off they stopped. We rent right up and never got stuck a load. Uncle Will came down there, he came down there and Myer and Wright, Myer and Wright was in his arms. He came down in the spring they were all like this. Myer would run out over here and I said, "That sand is hot." That was in the spring. He said, "He'll be back in a minute," the old man said, Uncle Will. He did, he ran about from here to the front door and here he had come back. He had burned his feet because the sand was hot. He picked him up. That was in the spring. In the fall, the same place Uncle Will came down there alone and I was getting the last of them out the last day. I had a team of horses on there and no driver, they would pull right up and when I put the gas down that is just like saying "get up" to them and when I take the gas off they stop. We loaded them and he drove down there with his car and stopped outside the bridge of that lower field and he said, "I have never seen horses pull like that without a driver." They would go right up and come right out. They listened to the gas. When you would give them the gas they went. When you quit the gas they stopped. When Aunt Nell and Uncle Will come to my mother's house and came in the front door and talked to my mother a little bit, my mother said—her and I were there, the only ones—she said, "Willard is making a lot of money. He is about a millionaire." Aunt Nell spoke up and she said, "Yes, the poor boy. It has cost him over ten thousand dollars income tax." Then Uncle Will chuckled and laughed and she was real serious and he chuckled and laughed. He said, "I have come to get the rent," from the farm I had rented. I walked in the other room in the bedroom and I had the cash there. I got a check for eleven hundred dollars. I counted it out and Uncle Will was sitting here and she was sitting here. I gave him half—I didn't get quite eleven hundred, but I gave him five hundred and fifty dollars. That was half of it. I went there to give it to him in cash and Aunt Nell spoke up and she said, "No, he don't get it, you give it to me." It put me in a spot. I said, "Well, he come and ask me if I wanted to rent it and I rented it off of him for five hundred and fifty dollars and I will have to give him the money." So I give him the money, I gave him just a few dollars over half of what I made. They got up and left. I guess Aunt Nell thought that I made too much money so they didn't rent it to me anymore. I sold the potatoes at thirty cents a hundred and I sold the sugar beets for three dollars and eighty-five cents. I went camping with Russell Marriott, Roy Hodson and Clyde Covington, they were cousins, and myself. We got up there we slept way out in the wild and the first night, we had our own food and some blankets and stuff. We camped out there the one night. The next night we came in and we were still out quite a ways from the camping grounds so we pulled up there and the car was like this. We made the bed here and we had plenty of food. The running board was on the outside there. We put some food under those running boards. Clyde Covington wouldn't sleep outside, he was scared, so he slept in the back seat. Russell slept here and Roy Hodson here and me here. Our heads right by the running board of the car. I woke up for some reason, I guess by the noise. I woke up and it was just coming daylight. I woke up and I could hear something. I sat up in bed and I looked about—oh judging thirty feet from where we were sleeping there was a black bear and it was standing facing us and it was growling. I think that was what woke me up, it was growling. I woke up and I looked up there and she was standing on all four feet facing us. I said to these guys, "Hey! Do you want to see something?" "Nah," they slept. They finally woke up and Roy Hodson was in the middle, he raised up and he saw that bear and he went right down in and pulled the covers over him. Clyde Covington was in the car and he was jumping around like a squirrel in there and Russell was over here. I looked that thirty feet away and they got calmed down a little and that bear just kept growling. I reached around here and Uncle Will and Russell and Woodrow and them had just shingled the barn on the farm over there and they had the shingle—so I took one of the shingling hatches that they had and put it under my pillow. I reached around and I thought, "Will I give that bear time to move?" She didn't want to move. I think it was a female bear. So I reached around and I felt there and I got that hatchet in my hand and took a hold of the handle of it. A hatchet is a long blade but it is narrow. I got up on my left knee and that bear still stayed there and she kept growling, and I would say it was twenty-five feet. I got up on my knee and I looked at that and thought, "Maybe if I throw that I can pin her right between the eyes." When I brought my hand up like that, that bear whirled around but it was too far gone. I brought it back like that, she whirled around, and I let it go just as hard as I could throw it and it stuck up right the side of her tail. The full length of the blade went right in her. She ran about twenty-five feet with her hind legs looked like they were going faster than her front ones. She was hunched up but it was a female bear. She ran about twenty-five or thirty feet and the hatchet fell out. But it stuck in her that long. I jumped out of bed and run out there and got it. It was covered in blood all over the hatchet. I brought it back and showed it to them. She never came back. We gathered up camp and right here, she had been in there before, and never woke anybody up. I think she had a cub—I am satisfied she had a cub bear back—a bear will come and get the food and leave the cub back there. Right here by Russell Marriott's head, here was the car, that high and right under the running board by his head we had some bacon and a little sack of sugar, maybe a five pound and half of it was gone. That bear had come and reached in right the side of his head and took that little sack of sugar and we traced it and it had sprinkled a little sugar all over here and there. It had torn the sack a little. All the way out there was a little bit of sugar. She had taken that—she had to get within six inches of his head but she must have reached in with her paw and got that sack with the sugar in and brought it out and took it. Then she fed the cub. That is how close she had come to that kid's head and never woke him up. We never saw the bear again.
Part one of an interview with Dorothy Giadone Poirier. Topics include: Where in Italy her grandparents came from and what they were like. Her father's work history. What her parents were like. The foods her mother would prepare. What her parents thought when Dottie's first marriage ended and their acceptance of her new husband. Memories of her family. Dottie is half Italian and half Sicilian. What family meals were like when Dottie was growing up. How Fitchburg, MA has changed over time. Her family moved to Leominster, MA. Her father's activity in the community and in politics. Memories of working in her father's furniture store. How her father got into the business. What it was like when her father passed away. What the customers were like at the furniture store. ; 1 DOTTIE: Oh, I bumped into her a lot at [Shritzer] or whatever. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 00:00:09]. DOTTIE: Joe and Alice. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. DOTTIE: A lot of times they say well, come by and have a drink before, and I say no I'm going out. Uh, so I met him in the parking lot, and he said you better not say you can't meet -- you can't come for breakfast. Oh, I says, no. I'll be there. SPEAKER 1: Okay. [Unintelligible - 00:00:27] with the Center for Italian Culture 1002, and being interviewed five minutes of eleven. So thank you, Dottie. DOTTIE: Pleasure. SPEAKER 1: So you were telling me a little bit about your father, your father Bill Giadone. DOTTIE: Yes. Yes. SPEAKER 1: And just how influential he was in Fitchburg. DOTTIE: Very, very. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. Can you tell me a little bit? Mm-hmm. LINDAY: Oh yes. His grand -- his mother and father both, they were still -- I mean, they didn't die until I was, had -- I was a young adult. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. DOTTIE: Uh, his father was a very typical Italian, very stern. Mother was the salt of the earth. Just a sweet lady. In fact, one time I made a comment, I says to my husband, "Gee, sorry you didn't meet my grandmother, you would have just adored her." And then I says, "My grandfather—this is no baloney—you would have gotten along good with him." So he was man's man, my grandfather. But as a child, you don't realize that and you became frightened of him. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. DOTTIE: If he said be quiet, be quiet, except my younger sister. SPEAKER 1: Where did they come from? DOTTIE: My grandfather came from a small town in Sicily called [Pepepezzia]. 2 SPEAKER 1: Would you know how to spell…? DOTTIE: [Unintelligible - 00:01:43]. SPEAKER 1: Okay. So he came from Sicily? DOTTIE: Yes. SPEAKER 1: What about your grandma? DOTTIE: My grandmother also. They were both -- came over. I'm not sure of the exact -- well, maybe if we kind of -- my father was born in 1908, and he came here when he was six years old. So that was 1913? SPEAKER 1: Fourteen. DOTTIE: Fourteen, yeah. So that's when they came here. And they settled in Fitchburg, but I'm not sure exactly where they -- well, I guess at one time they lived on Hale Street when they were kids. I mean, I don't remember. I mean, back when my father was a kid. And my father went to -- I think he went to start the sixth grade, and then he left, and he worked around here in a bakery shop, I guess. I think it was Padua. And when he was 15, 16 years old, he [unintelligible - 00:02:40] something for a young fella to do that. And, I guess he went with some fellas, his friends from the area, and they got an apartment. And the reason he started shaving with a straight razor, which because every time he went to shave his razors were gone or dull or whatever. So he says I'll fix them. I'm going to learn how to shave with a straight razor. So he shaved with a straight razor up until the time he got an electric razor. SPEAKER 1: Really. DOTTIE: Yeah. So as a kid growing up, he shaved with a -- he had the strap and he shaved with a straight razor. SPEAKER 1: So you remember watching him do that? DOTTIE: Yes. Yes. And then he said that he worked his way up to bellboy, bell captain. He worked for the Yale Club in New York, and he said he got an education there as being a bellboy with the guys from Yale. Also, while he was in New York, he said he only did it for a while because the people were not clean at [unintelligible - 00:04:00]. I guess he tried everything, 3 and he says -- my mother tells the story, and she said, "Well, he gave that up quickly because someone came in that wasn't clean," so your father says, not doing this. So then he came back to Fitchburg for maybe a visit, and at the time they would have dances, and that's how he met my mother. He was running a dance thing. And he started an oil business and married in '32, so almost right away, and he had that oil business -- I want to say until [Audies], and that's when he started a furniture store. Actually, it was -- he was selling appliances. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. Right on Water Street? DOTTIE: Right on Water Street. And then he had a small little store, and then he bought a larger store where we lived. The bottom part was the store, and then upstairs was -- we had a fairly large apartment. SPEAKER 1: And that was at 3 -- 320 Water Street. DOTTIE: 320 Water Street. SPEAKER 1: Now, the oil business that he started, do you remember -- do you know the name of that? DOTTIE: Yes. Giadone's. And then he also had a gas station. SPEAKER 1: Now, how did he get involved in that? Do you know? DOTTIE: I don't remember. All I know is he had the gas station and he also had the oil business. I guess he started the gas business as someplace to put his trucks. So -- and he also, I guess, they delivered ice at the time too. SPEAKER 1: Okay. Do you remember…? DOTTIE: My mother, Fiona [Barzarelli], she was in Fitchburg, and it came from [unintelligible - 00:06:01]. SPEAKER 1: Okay. So they first were connected in New York? DOTTIE: Yeah, that area. That's where -- but she was very young. When she -- my mother had a very, very hard life because her mother was paralyzed, so she had to feed and clothe my grandmother, plus she had to do all the cooking. She had two brothers that she had to do the cooking and cleaning for. SPEAKER 1: And this was in Fitchburg by that time.4 DOTTIE: This was in Fitchburg, yeah. So…. SPEAKER 1: What did her father do? DOTTIE: Her father worked at a foundry in Fitchburg [unintelligible - 00:06:35] another foundry. And he worked in the Fitchburg area. And my grandfather too. I forget where he worked, but he worked in the area. SPEAKER 1: Now, did you know them also? DOTTIE: My grandmother I didn't remember. She died when I think I was two or three years old. I mean, these are the stories that -- Alice would know my grandmother better because she was older. SPEAKER 1: Okay. And Alice…. DOTTIE: Adante, yes. SPEAKER 1: Is she a [unintelligible - 00:06:59]? I don't remember. DOTTIE: Yes. Yes. Her father and my mother were brothers and sisters, so. And we were brought up close. She has -- well, she had -- there's only three now because one passed away. She had four brothers. SPEAKER 1: Okay. DOTTIE: And her mother and my mother were very close even though they were sister-in-laws. So my mother was close with my father's sister also. SPEAKER 1: So your mother had to take care of her mother? What happened when she got married? DOTTIE: Her father lived with us. My grandfather lived with us until I think I was seven or eight years old. I remember him just a little. Then my mother's brother, the other brother, went away and came home with this cousin of theirs, and he lived with us until he passed away. And he was only a cousin, and my mother would get -- 'cause men, you know, have as they get older they get a little sloppier and stuff. So my father would [unintelligible - 00:08:04] a relative. SPEAKER 1: So was that kind of expected back then…? DOTTIE: Yes. Just take care of your mother and father. They lived, like I said, they lived with us. My father, really -- today most men I don't think put up 5 with it. But my mother took care of her parents and her cousin. I mean, they never lived alone as a couple. SPEAKER 1: Ever lived alone? DOTTIE: Nope. Because when they got married she had my grandmother, and then she had my grandfather, and then we got Renaldo, which was her cousin. Excuse me. And then the kids came along. SPEAKER 1: Now, when grandparents live with their daughter or a son, what happens when…? DOTTIE: Well, see I wasn't too young to have known that, but as far as I know it's because of the way my father was. I'm sure he made the decision. When I was -- my grandfather was a very quiet man, my mother's father, so I don't know about the mother, because like I said, I was only two or three when she died, and I don't remember her. She had arthritis; her hands were closed. But my mother said she was a strong lady as far as her personality, because she would stick a broom in her hand, you know, this way, and make sure her bed was made to her satisfaction. And my mother cooked like better than most chefs. SPEAKER 1: Your mother did? DOTTIE: Not even having recipes and stuff, and she would just -- unbelievable. My friends would say, we're going to take you to a restaurant that you're not going to complain about. And I'd say, well, okay. But even today, to this day I go out and I still complain about where we've been and what we've -- you know, the food is not -- like I said, my mother was such a good cook. SPEAKER 1: Give me some examples of what she would cook. DOTTIE: Anything. I mean, we never had -- I mean, I'd come home and her dining room buffet would be covered with all kinds of pastries. I'd go, "Ma, we having company?" And she says, "No, I felt like baking," and she baked, but every night we had some form of pasta, because my father liked a little dish of pasta, or it would be soup or a little dish of spaghetti. But he always had to have his meat and vegetables and salads. We always had a balanced meal, and we didn't even know it because, we'd have the pasta 6 first, and then we'd have meat, and vegetables and we'd have salad last. And we'd have dessert. And that was -- I mean, that's how we ate. I mean, when the holidays came around, I mean, we had a little more, but every -- they would say, do you eat like that all the time? And we'd say, what do you mean? We just took that for granted because that's how my mother cooked. My father didn't like leftovers. So if he had a meeting or something, she would call my friends and say come for supper, and we're having leftovers, and my girlfriend's husband says, Fiona's leftovers are better than most restaurants' first course. So they came. I mean, she'd switch around, right. She'd call Tommy and [unintelligible - 00:11:39] and say come for supper, and my father didn't like beef stew or stuff like that. So if he was going to be away or a meeting or going to go to a convention or something, we would have that when my father wasn't around. So she would do things that. I mean, she pleased my father -- my father came first. If my father -- we would have the store closed at 6:00 so we would have dinner at 6:30. So my father got stuck with a customer, we would not eat until my father came home. So it was -- we had sat down to have dinner every night together. And when I started working at the store and then my father would say, he'd start talking about business and then I'd start clearing the table and my mother would say, "Well, I'm not done." I'd say, "Well, I am," because she would, you know, I would say, "Dad, you know what? You're a great father, but a boss, you leave a lot to be desired." SPEAKER 1: And how did he…? DOTTIE: He laughed. But he was an ace. Oh, you're lucky [unintelligible - 00:12:47]. "What are you, crazy? I can't take a day off." The day off I get is the day I have. I can't take just the day off and tell him I'm going shopping. What are you, crazy? Well, play sick. I live at home. How can I play sick? SPEAKER 1: But you stayed? 7 DOTTIE: Yeah. Stayed there until I got married. So I mean, you do what you do because -- we had a girl working for us, and she would be black and blue because my father would go -- he would start, you know, you didn't do this right, you didn't do that right, and I'd be pitching it because I didn't want to answer him. And so she'd go, "He's your father." I'd go, but he's wrong. I'd be, "Josie, if he's told you this was black and it was white and you would say, 'Yes, Bill, you're right.'" I'd go, "Josie, that's not right." And she'd say, "But he's your father and he's your boss. You've got to say yes," and I'd go, I can't do this. SPEAKER 1: But evidently he liked having you around. DOTTIE: God, yes, because we argued, but we still, you know, he would say, "Well, my daughter will -- she'll pick out the colors for you, and she'll do, you know, whatever," but he was tough. But I loved him dearly. I mean, he was, you know -- my first husband I separated from and I started to date Teddy, and I wasn't really -- your father that you're dating again. You know, I'm in my 30s now, I mean, I'm still -- but you know what they got you over here. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 00:14:35]? DOTTIE: Yep. So I go and I tell -- I said, "Dad, I'm dating," and he says, "Yes, I know." I mean, who told you? He says nobody. He says your whole personality changed. SPEAKER 1: And he waited for you to say. DOTTIE: Yes. But I, you know, if you think they don't. You think they don't know you but they do. LINSAY: Now, did you move back in with your parents when you got separated? DOTTIE: Yes, I did. But I got separated and I went back home, and then we got together again and we went back to an apartment, and then the second time I just stayed in the apartment. SPEAKER 1: What did your parents think of your getting separated? DOTTIE: Well, they were glad because they didn't really like him. Teddy, they adored. Teddy they adored, because he was wonderful to my parents. He 8 was absolutely -- if he did nothing else for me he was just wonderful to my parents. To me, it was important. I mean, he -- my father called him and said I have to go here. He'd go, "Okay, Bill. When?" and I'll pick you up and whatever. He would do that. And my mother by then was in a nursing home. Before that, he just loved her. So he, you know, would take her out to dinner, and she just loved that, because my father was always busy with other things, and so we'd take her. And she just, you know, she just thought Teddy was -- she'd say, I want to go somewhere that we don't bump into someone he knows, because he was that type of person. If he didn't know someone when we walked into the place, he knew them when we left. That's sure. I actually believe, and the reason it's felt that way is because when -- I think they had a French priest that baptized my mother, and he couldn't -- that was how he felt it. So that's how -- the only other person that has that name is a cousin. SPEAKER 1: And was she named after her? DOTTIE: I think maybe she -- her real name is Virginia. In fact when people refer to her as Virginia… but you knew her as, you know, we always called her [Bunah]. SPEAKER 1: But her first name is Virginia? JENNIEFER: Yes. SPEAKER 1: Okay. DOTTIE: And she was -- her father died before she was born, which was my mother's brother. My mother had two brothers, and the two brothers had large families. Alice comes from -- which there was five and the other was eight. And this last one that was born was the Balderelli, but she never met her father because he died before she was born. The mother was pregnant for him when he died. That's a large family. And my mother's nieces and nephews were all close. They would all stop by and see her -- not every day, but three of the girls were -- I mean, they would come at least once a week to see her. SPEAKER 1: Now, what made them so close?9 DOTTIE: My mother -- one of my mother's niece was getting married and the father didn't approve, so my mother and father did the wedding for them. And for one reason or another, she was -- but even the guys would -- one of the guys worked for my father, and we'd just -- I don't know, I just can't explain it. And my father's family too, we were close, too. I never had any brothers, and my two cousins on my father's side are the brothers that I never had. During the holidays, my father's -- not so much the Balderellis because they were such a large family and they, you know, they but on the holidays, my father's brother and sister, we would always get together on Christmas Eve, and then it got to be too much for my mother, and then one of my cousins took over on Christmas Eve over at his house. And then as we got older, everybody, you know, got their own family. So we started to go to my sister's home. SPEAKER 1: Now, did your mother work? DOTTIE: She worked at the store. UNKNOWN: She also worked at home. DOTTIE: My father never had her on the payroll until later, until the doctor says, you know what, she works as hard as anybody, in fact, when the help saw my mother come, they'd go, oh, my God. She would work as hard as anybody. She cleaned the store. She decorated the store. She did the windows until later on. I mean, she worked as hard, so when she became -- when it came time for her to collect Social Security, they came and interviewed me. I and her. So this little twirp, I said, would you fire your mother? He's such a -- he's so -- he didn't even ask for help if she came into work. I mean, we weren't lying. She worked there as hard as anybody else. SPEAKER 1: But there wasn't any record? DOTTIE: There wasn't any record until later on when he put on her the payroll, but it wasn't really a record type thing. So they said, well, she never -- I says, well she worked harder here than most of us did. SPEAKER 1: So you mentioned the doctor? 10 DOTTIE: Dr. Silva was a close friend of my father's, and he said you should have her on the books because she's there as much as anybody. And so my father said, yeah, you're right. So he put her on his, you know, in [unintelligible - 00:20:43]. SPEAKER 1: So how did you mother feel about that? Was that kind of liberating, or…? DOTTIE: No. She didn't care one way or another. I mean, my father paid for everything. You know, we would just, you know, he would -- my mother'd go uptown and she'd, you know, the [unintelligible - 00:20:58] charges all over. And so she says your father is gonna complain. I says, "Ma, if you spend $5 or $500, he's going to complain. So spend the $500. He's going to complain one way or another." I says, "Ma, he's been saying that since you've been married he's going to shut your account. Did he ever do it? No, he's not going to do it." SPEAKER 1: Before we turn the recorder on, you had mentioned that you're half Italian, half Sicilian. DOTTIE: Yes. SPEAKER 1: So tell me about that. DOTTIE: I mean, I never thought about it. I just said, if anybody asked me what I was, I would say I'm Italian. And so I still say I'm Italian. But people who live in Sicily and other -- see, they figure that's the boot part and we're close to Africa. It was just a big joke. And it still is. But I feel that I'm Italian, and in my heart I know I am. So I say I'm half [Mathogen] and half Sicilian, which I am. And I'm proud of my heritage. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. So if you could think of what attributes are given to the Sicilians? DOTTIE: I don't know. I just think that what I could -- the only thing I could see is because my mother is such a good cook, and that's one thing, and my father was forceful in his -- and that's how I perceive to be a Sicilian. They're kind of, you know, forceful. And the [Mathies] are on the quiet side because my uncles were quiet. Well, I don't remember the one that 11 died early, but my other uncle was just this solemn man and just a sweetheart. I mean, just [unintelligible - 00:22:44]. SPEAKER 1: Was there any good-natured jesting done? DOTTIE: Yes. SPEAKER 1: You know, about being Sicilian in the house. DOTTIE: Oh yes. Oh god, between my Uncle Jeff, you're lucky that my sister married you and you're Sicilian, you're up close to Africa. I mean, just jokingly, you know. But when my uncle was [unintelligible - 00:23:06] took sick, he and my father went on a trip for almost two months. They toured the United States, and my father would say, "Oh my god, if you stopped in this restaurant and your uncle looked at it, he'd say we're not eating here." He said, he'd be starving but if he didn't like the looks of it, he said we'd have to drive another 50 miles. SPEAKER 1: So food was very important? DOTTIE: Yes. SPEAKER 1: To the family? DOTTIE: Yes. My uncle married a French woman, and she cooked as good as my mother. Alice's mother is French. And she was as good a cook as my mother. SPEAKER 1: Tell me about the preparation of the food and the table, you get the impression all of that is very important, the presentation. DOTTIE: Yeah. When I tell you it's -- another thing my mother had a knack to do, if my father came home with five extra people for dinner and didn't call my mother, there was still enough food to serve these people. If he phoned after a meeting with people, my mother would put out a spread, and I'd look at sisters and say, where did she get that? She just had a knack of, you know, putting things together and making it look beautiful. In fact, my husband did all the cooking and I set the table so it looked pretty. SPEAKER 1: But did your mother also set the table each day too? DOTTIE: Well, I guess, us kids did that. But it was -- when we all sat down to dinner together, both sisters got married early so there was -- if I was 12 working she'd say, okay, and I was living in my own apartment, she says, "Well, come for supper before you go home," and I'd say, yeah okay. My sisters say, "Oh, you're lazy. You don't want to cook." I'd go, yep, you're right. So she would make sure that we stopped at least two or three nights, and most of the time if it was someone's birthday, she would have us all for dinner and cook our special, whatever we liked. And it was obvious whoever's birthday it was, and most of the time it was one of the other sisters that was there. So one night we're all there and my father says, whose birthday is it because nobody assisted, and we called everybody. But most of the time, I mean, she'd -- I mean, she could have 10 people at dinner and think nothing of it. SPEAKER 1: So there was always enough to eat? DOTTIE: Oh. If you asked my mother if you wanted her to go shopping at [Filene's] or go to a gourmet grocery store, she'd say I want to go to the gourmet grocery store. I mean, she -- I'm going into Boston in the north end and like to try different -- she says, "Okay, I got to go to the grocery store before you take me home." I said I just got to go in for a loaf of bread and she'd be in there an hour. I'd say, "Ma, Ma, you said a loaf of bread." "Well, I decided I need to get this, this, and this." Mm-hmm. Things that people consider gourmet now. We had polentas growing up. We had risotto growing up. We had baked Alaska pie growing up. I mean, we had lobster [nugood]. We had baked stuffed lobster. We had razor clams. Some people don't even know what razor clams are today. SPEAKER 1: Tell me, how would she make those? I'm familiar with them. DOTTIE: Razor clams. She would just -- what she would do is steam them first, take the, you know, the clams out and then chop them up and make stuffing with it, and then put them back in the shell and put a little bread crumbs and bake them in the oven. I think they were absolutely delicious. I'm telling my husband about razor clams, he says, "I've never hear of razor clams." We're at the [unintelligible - 00:27:18] walk in the beach 13 and I said see, see that, see that clam? That's a razor clam. Of course, I think you had to -- I hadn't seen them in years. SPEAKER 1: I never see them in the stores. I've seen them at the beach. DOTTIE: Yeah. I've never, ever seen them -- I haven't seen them in the stores for years. And another thing is that -- well, she didn't do this because there were certain things that she didn't make. Uncle did. SPEAKER 1: French uncle? DOTTIE: No, my Italian uncle on my father's sister's husband. I think he was from Poland. My middle sister was the finicky eater. I mean, my father would say, "Barbara, have a little wine." "But daddy, I don't like it." "Honey, just try the wine, it'd do you good." So, but my sister and I would, you know, we always had the wine and the champagne. We've had the, you know, he always made sure we had a little just so that when we were older that we were accustomed to drinking and we didn't go out, and you know, and the cabinets would be -- whatever was in the house would be open to all of us. All of us. So now my sister gets married and she lives upstairs from my aunt and uncle, and she called and said, "Oh, Uncle Charlie made me --" we called them "babaluccis" in Italian, and I said, oh yeah. My sister says, "That's nice, thank you. Bye," and hung up. I called and I said, "Uncle Charlie, you like Barbara better than me." He says, no honey—because he had an accent—I like you both the same. I said nope. Oh no, he says, I like you both. I said, well, you make Barbara babaluccis and I didn't get any. The next day I had a pair. SPEAKER 1: What are babaluccis. DOTTIE: They're the snails. They're little snails -- he used to do them in a sauce that was absolutely delicious. And another thing my mother never made was tripe. And I never had it because I didn't like the smell. My grandmother would cook it and it was ugh. It was bad. They bought it and they had to clean it, and it was terrible. So now I used to have to go with Teddy, and we'd go out and they have tripe. I got ugh. So he goes, try it. So I say okay. I tried it. Delicious. Now, my aunt's sister-in-law 14 comes from New Jersey, and she makes a whole batch for my husband, but my mother still never cooked that. That was one thing she never cooked, and baccala. But 99 percent of everything else, she did, so. My favorite was that she used to do this roast pork with the center cut that she used to have, then we cut the bone so that we could have the bone. We would fight for the pork, so she'd make sure that we'd all get a piece of it. But that was my favorite, favorite dish that she did. SPEAKER 1: Now, I know that everyone would sit at the table. Was your father given priority, first serving? DOTTIE: He was given the first serving, but we all had -- the only thing that we didn't have that he had because we didn't like it was liver, because he liked liver occasionally. But he was served first. But whatever he had, we had. And the other thing, I don't think as kids, we didn't like lamb chops, so my mother would make something else for us. But now lamb is my favorite meal now. But you know, like I said whatever my father had, we had. Nothing was taken from us. I mean, he would serve for us. But if he had steak, we had steak. I mean, we'd choose not to have it. That was because didn't want it. But I have a friend that came from a family of nine, and father would have butter and the kids would have margarine, and so we said that if he could have steak and the kids would have something else, and so we had a brother, so this brother says, "When am I going to have this steak and butter?" He says when you start to work, and you know, contribute. They came home and he says, well, here's my money I want steak and butter or whatever, and the father says, oh no, some of it's for your room, some of it's for the clothes, and some of it's for this. You still don't have enough money for steak. SPEAKER 1: Now, who served the food at the table? DOTTIE: My mother never sat down. She did. I should say she was always on the edge. My father -- we always ate in the dining room in Leominster because we'd -- I'd say 90 percent of the time -- we had a large kitchen but my father felt claustrophobic, so 90 percent of the time we ate in the 15 dining room because it was it the stove and this thing was here and the dining room was here. So it was actually closer to the dining room than it was to go across the kitchen to the other part. But my mother served. SPEAKER 1: Now, would your father…? DOTTIE: It didn't matter. No. It didn't matter. SPEAKER 1: You know what I want to do? It's because just that you're… DOTTIE: Sure. I'm sorry. SPEAKER 1: No, right here, because you're… DOTTIE: Oh, I'm sorry. SPEAKER 1: No. It's all right. I'm just afraid it will [unintelligible - 00:33:02]. Okay. Back to your father. Do you have any idea why his parents chose Fitchburg? DOTTIE: They must have had friends here. Not really. No. I don't know why they really, no, I don't -- no, I don't. No, I don't remember hearing why they choose here. SPEAKER 1: And also, but I think the recorder wasn't on; you were talking about an experience… DOTTIE: They just said that it was tough growing up because they originally -- they lived in the patch, which is considered Italian when they were growing up. First it was Irish, and then they moved out and then the Italians moved in, and they moved out. Now I think it's the Puerto Ricans that live mostly in that area. I don't think there's anybody left even down, you know, beyond it, because this is Water Street, and down this way almost every house was Italian. SPEAKER 1: Well, there's Doris… DOTTIE: Oh yeah, she's still there. Yeah, she's still there. I forgot. Yes, she is. She lives down Railroad Street. Yes. Lovely lady. I mean, you see her, she makes you feel she's so happy to see you. She comes and gives you -- so good to see you. SPEAKER 1: She's special. DOTTIE: Yes, she really is. 16 SPEAKER 1: So do you remember any…? DOTTIE: All I can remember is that, you know, I grew up there. I worked there, and so I was, you know, eight years ago. So I was there, you know, all my life, and you see the changes as, you know, you grow up but… SPEAKER 1: So tell me about the changes. DOTTIE: Well, you could walk down the street, and you know, you knew everybody, and it was amazing how many [unintelligible - 00:34:57] that was on that street growing up, and each one of them -- I don't know how they survived, because each one of them had a large family, and there must have been a dozen stores from 5th Street to 1st Street. And they had -- there was [colors] and there was the [Cabones], there was [Ilinestis]. There was another two Cabones. There was a [Casthetes]. There was a Gloria chain, which is -- I still, I don't know if they should have one in Leominster too, but part of the Gloria chain was in where our store is now. It was -- my father's furniture store originally was built as the garage where they would park cars. And when we were across the street, he bought this building, and he converted it into a furniture store. And one time, Coca-Cola had rented the warehouse, and they had 12 trucks on the roof of this building. The building is still standing very, very strong. Some of the parts of the building are fallout shelters. That's how -- 'cause it was built so well. And it is -- it [unintelligible - 00:36:37] Water Street up to Spruce Street up to Hale Street, 'cause when you look at the building in the front, it doesn't appear to be latched. It goes all the way up to Spruce Street and Hale. Spuce Street is the street just before the store. Okay. And Hale Street is the street that runs parallel with Water Street. So that building goes all the way up to Hale Street. SPEAKER 1: And you mentioned that it was a fall out? DOTTIE: Part of it is. SPEAKER 1: Wow. Yeah. And when did that come about? DOTTIE: Well, I think World War II. They came in and they, you know, they check out the buildings and stuff and put up these things. 1953, that's when he 17 converted the garage into the store because, well, right now, if you were to go in there the ceilings don't appear high, but there is six more feet. They dropped the ceiling. Or they dropped it to a, you know, a fall ceiling. But beyond that there's six more feet. SPEAKER 1: I thought you just mentioned -- were those grocery stores? DOTTIE: Yes, they were little groceries, and… SPEAKER 1: Your mother must have been in heaven. DOTTIE: She did -- she [unintelligible - 00:37:49] I said no. I'm going to a different store. Well, this one has this one in her [unintelligible - 00:37:53], and as they stopped, you know, maybe they'll pass away or whatever, they, you know, they spaced up, because there's nothing on there now. There's not a grocery store on Water Street now. Maybe there is, but up for a -- but after they stopped existing -- she bought very, very little meat from the supermarkets. She bought it from Sal's Grocery Store up in -- they would deliver to -- 'cause I've been everywhere in Leominster. They would deliver to the store, then we'd take it. I would say, "I want a pound of this, I want a pound of that. I want two pounds," whatever she wants, she'd give them an order and he'd deliver it. SPEAKER 1: So they still have these grocery stores, they weren't run by the -- they were run from daughters? DOTTIE: Maybe, not really, no. I can just remember just one. It was -- he adopted, but it was not even a son. It was someone that worked for him, but he ran it for a while. And it's actually a parking lot now of this [unintelligible - 00:39:04]. There was a grocery store there in the building up above it. I mean, they had like tenement houses that we needed parking lots, so then my father bought that building and tore it down. SPEAKER 1: Know everyone who lived in the patch more or less. DOTTIE: More or less. In fact, it was about -- I wanna say 12 years ago, they had a patch reunion, and it was wonderful. They had, you know, it was some people you hadn't see in years and wonderful. We should do it again, of 18 course. It's a lot of work, but no one has, you know, taken any initiative and done it again. SPEAKER 1: Did anyone take pictures? DOTTIE: But I do remember, I had this lady, this Mrs. [Impressor], was just a sweetheart of a lady and sometimes she would just come in the store just to fill her -- she was turning 100, and [unintelligible - 00:40:01] called me. She says, "Dottie, how come you haven't sent in your return?" I says, I was hurt, because one of my girlfriends got invited, and I says, I wonder why [unintelligible - 00:40:11] sisters, Dottie? How come you didn't send in the return?" I says, 'cause I didn't get -- that was when, again all Italians were there, so it was, I went to a wedding and hadn't seen people in a lot of years. SPEAKER 1: So do you remember who the organizers were of the class reunion? I may like to talk to them. DOTTIE: I'm going to say Marie Cabone had something to do with it, but that's not her married name, her married name is… SPEAKER 1: We can get it later. DOTTIE: Okay. She may have had something to do with it. I'm not sure. SPEAKER 1: So tell me about the changes in the patch. So when did… DOTTIE: Interesting. You know what? You go to work every day you're going to see some things -- I want to say it started to change -- my aunt was walking down in front of the store, someone knocked her down and stole her bag. I says, I don't this believe this happening. First of all, it's my aunt, and second of all, in front of our store, so that was heartbreaking. SPEAKER 1: When was that about? DOTTIE: I want to say maybe 30 years ago. SPEAKER 1: Wow. DOTTIE: Time goes by so fast, because my aunt's been dead since I want to say '80. Time goes by so fast, maybe it was 25 years ago. At that time they'd leave the doors open, and you know, you never locked your doors or anything. You never thought about it, never thought about having an alarm system.19 SPEAKER 1: Did you ever [unintelligible - 00:41:57]? DOTTIE: No. First of all to let the store, anything [unintelligible - 00:42:04] built a store for furniture must be, and we had it, so we just -- fortunately we had a good clientele, and things were, you know, we were all right as far as, you know, our customers would come in and we'd advertise, so it was fine up until [unintelligible - 00:42:27] and then it just wasn't fun anymore. SPEAKER 1: Did your parents continue living about? DOTTIE: No, no, we moved to Leominster when I was… and we moved to… SPEAKER 1: Why was that done? DOTTIE: Why was that done? Well, my father and mother needed -- they bought the land on I'd say Ellis Street, and at that time my uncle, who was a plasterer and bricklayer, came and said to my father and mother there's a beautiful house in Leominster that's for sale. It's only six months old, and my father and mother went to look at it, and they fell in love with it because it was -- it is a brick Tudor, I want to say an English Tudor. And it was at that time one of the nicest houses in Leominster. So they got it for a good deal so they bought it. SPEAKER 1: Did life change after moving from [unintelligible - 00:43:32] Street? DOTTIE: No, because we still went to church in Fitchburg, I still worked, all my friends were in Fitchburg, I went to school in Fitchburg. In fact, someone said to me later on in life Dottie, how do you like living in Leominster, I said I've lived here most of my life, they said you wouldn't think so. In fact, up until a few years ago, people would ask me where I was from and I would say Fitchburg, and I'd say -- now I'd tell them I'm from Leominster because things have changed you know, it's a different… it's changed immensely. It's not the small community that it was. In fact, up until I worked, because I had property in Fitchburg I voted in Fitchburg up until ten years ago. SPEAKER 1: Ten years ago.20 DOTTIE: I would say. Of course I wasn't active like I was when I was working. I belonged to the Chamber of Commerce; I belonged to the government stations. And when you retire, you get away from that, and it isn't as… see, my father was active in everything, he was active in politics, he was active in the community, he was active in the church, he was active in the Sons of Italy, he was active in politics, so he was very active in the community. In fact he and a couple of his friends were instrumental in him getting elected mayor. SPEAKER 1: So he was instrumental with that. DOTTIE: They were very good friends, yep. In fact he was instrumental in John Volpe becoming governor. SPEAKER 1: Really? Tell me about that. DOTTIE: He and John Volpe became friendly when they belonged to the Sons of Italy on a state level. So John Volpe called my father and said to him, "I am running for governor," and "Can you help?" My father said sure. So he called one of his, campaign manager called my father and he says, "We're coming into Fitchburg on Monday, can you introduce him to -- or can I introduce him to a lot of people in a short period of time?" So he actually closed the store down and had every one of us call our friends, customers that we thought would come, and he had open house at his house. And at that time, well he still, he belonged to the Rotary and he belonged to… I don't know if he belonged to [unintelligible - 00:46:19] we got the book and we just called people up and said… I'm not Republican, they said we don't care, just come, we want faces, a lot of people. So we booked. It was the early part of June so he says we'll have it outside, and at that time there was too many people and it wasn't enough time, so we had to have it catered. 21 So I called the caterer, he had all the summer furniture in the store delivered to the house and was going to have it outside. Well, it poured like you can't believe. We had tons and tons of people still and he called my father a few days later and he says Bill, if I have six friends like you throughout the state I'll be elected, and he was elected. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 00:47:07]. DOTTIE: No, the only job my father ever got for that was -- and because Joe Adante asked him to take it was to be on the Board of [unintelligible - 00:47:18] and so he took that. The only thing he go from helping so much was people would come in and say can you get me a low number plate, and he would buy the letter, and I got a low number plate. In fact because sometimes you don't think, I got my number plate is 99G, so I got that. But the woman that did it had to do some research because it was the ninth month, the ninth day in [unintelligible - 00:47:54]. And my father had -- in fact my brother-in-law still had, it's 52W, he was 52 years old [unintelligible - 00:48:03] the first time. He had 52W. So now he's running again, and Joe Ward is running against him, and he's from Fitchburg. My father, I says, "Are you crazy? You can't go out and campaign for him," I said, "It's suicide." I said, "You have a business." He said, "I also have the right to choose who I want to vote for." So he called up Joe Ward and he says to him, "Joe, I've known you for a good many years, but you know my affiliation with John. We've been friends for years. I would say that if John wasn't running I would help you campaign." He says, "I can't thank you enough for calling, and I still think you're gentleman." He also was Republican chairman in Fitchburg and Leominster area for a long time. SPEAKER 1: Who was? DOTTIE: My father. SPEAKER 1: Your father? DOTTIE: Yeah.22 SPEAKER 1: How did he get involved in politics? DOTTIE: Well, because [unintelligible - 00:49:15] like Pete Levante was running for mayor. That way, he was active with -- he'd gotten involved with John Volpe, and then he just was campaigning, he was Republican chairman for a long time in Fitchburg and Leominster area. That's how he got involved in it. And he would always take people home to the house and we got involved in it. This is changing the subject because he would say yes to you, if someone asked him something and he couldn't do, well he could do it, but to take someone somewhere he'd say yes that's fine, we'll do it. He'd say, "Dorothy, do this," and I'd get angry and I'd say I can't make a decision on my own, but I always had a -- especially with the nuns, when I was young they didn't drive, they didn't have their own car. So if they had to go somewhere, they would rely on the community of, you know, our parish to take them somewhere. Because we always had two cars, they would call my father and say I have to go such and such a place. "No problem. Dorothy, take them." I'd say, "Why do you do that?" He says, "What do you mean why do I do what?" Make decisions for me. He says "I don't make decisions, you do." But it was fun. One time he called me from Florida and said you have to be in so-and-so's wedding. I says dad, I don't know them. He said that's all right. I knew the family but I didn't really know, you know I didn't know the bride at all. He said that's all right, I do. I said but dad, I'm already in five weddings, I can't afford it. He said that's all right, I'll pay for it. So I'm in this wedding, didn't really -- well, I knew the guy that was with me because it was, you know, I knew the family, but the bride and groom. Marty's father, you know Pete Levante, was because most of them were Italian, he was invited to all of the weddings, but he says Dorothy, I says what, he says, you're doing this for a living. My sisters were quiet and 23 they never worked at the store. I should say my middle sister's quiet, my other sister, we call her Mouth because she has to have last lip Susie, she has to have the last word. SPEAKER 1: And from the church, your father was involved with the church also? DOTTIE: He was, you know he'd collect on Sundays, and also if they needed money they'd come and he'd help collect. When I was young they used to have these carnivals or you know when they have people at merry go rounds with stuff. SPEAKER 1: Like an amusement… DOTTIE: Thank you, yes. And they would run those in summer months, and he became very friendly with the pastor. In fact they would go away for a few -- you know, like to go to Florida. My mother wouldn't go because she had us kids, and so my father would go with the priest. SPEAKER 1: And what was his name? DOTTIE: Father [Campanelli]. He ended up being in Worcester, he was Monsignor Campanelli. And we had Father John Capolano who was at our parish for a long time. So one time I said can I have a new dress, not this week, "Well if Father John came and asked you for money you'd give it to him." He'd say, "Listen here, young lady, anything I gave to the church I always got back tenfold." So he was, you know [unintelligible - 00:53:00] he was involved with that. But I was baptized, communion, confirmation, got married out of there, probably die and be buried out of there. So definitely, definitely. SPEAKER 1: Do you think… DOTTIE: That generation, the men were superior. I have two cousins that my father treated, I mean he was wonderful to us, but he treated these guys like they were his sons. And he was just good to them. In fact one of them worked for him for quite awhile, and he's a multimillionaire now in Leominster. SPEAKER 1: Who's that?24 DOTTIE: Charles Tito. But he started with my father, and his brother worked for -- no, Sam never worked for us, maybe on the summer or something. I was close with them, just thought these guys were the best. SPEAKER 1: Was education? DOTTIE: Yes, but he never had it. But he thought it should be, you know, you should have -- in fact I could have gone longer but I chose not to. Then after, two or three years later I decided, I said I think I want to -- he said well if you want to go back you've got to pay. I said well if the [unintelligible - 00:54:39]. SPEAKER 1: Was it an option for you to work at the store or was it just assumed? DOTTIE: Assumed. Because first of all if I had left, when I left [Deed], I should have gone to work out of town for a few years just to get an idea of how things are run differently. But it was assumed that I would come to the store and stay there. Everything. I said it's a good thing I wasn't a boy because… no, good thing I never learned how to drive the truck, because if I did he would have sent me out on the truck too, because I did everything there. I mean, you didn't say, you know, when you go to a store today they go that's not my department or that's not my job. Those words did not exist with my father. I'll never forget one time he says to me call this person up, they owe us money. I says, okay, "Hello, Mrs. Jones or Mr. [unintelligible - 00:55:49]?" And he says, "You haven't been in for a while," and he hung up. So I said he hung up on me, I mean no one ever did that to me. So he said call him back. He says, "If you don't stop calling me back, I'm going to come down and hit you with a baseball bat." Well, I mean I started to cry. My father said, "Give me that phone." But then after a while you learn how… I mean, if he did that to me now I'd say go ahead, come, I'll have one too. 25 But as a kid, I mean first of all you wouldn't talk to anybody that way, we weren't brought up -- I mean, even to this day you know how you see policemen you get nervous, you were always brought up to respect your elders and authority. But today, you know, even like if you said the teacher said this, you never went home and said the teacher said this because they'd say whatever you did you deserved it. But today… I have a friend that's a teacher. He came in the store and his hands were all scratched. I says, "What happened to you." He says, "I was taking a second grader to the principal and he was scratching me." SPEAKER 1: That would have been unheard of? DOTTIE: You would never, ever. I mean, if the teacher said whatever, you never went home and said the teacher said or did whatever, because they were always right no matter what. SPEAKER 1: Did you ever feel that you were treated differently? DOTTIE: I'll tell you what, because all my friends were Italian. In fact, I told this to Alice just recently. I says I was blessed because there's a big difference between my sister and I, there's like almost eight years difference. I was the first girl born in the family, I was the first child born in my mother and father's close friends. So I was [unintelligible - 00:57:55]. I had grandparents that weren't my grandparents that, you know, my mother and father's friend's parents, I mean they couldn't treat me any better if I was their grandchildren. Back then grandchildren missed out because they passed away before, you know, they had kids. So I had -- everybody was my, you know, I was loved a lot, my uncles, my father's friends, my aunt. Like I said I was the first girl in the family. My aunt had two boys, but I was the only girl. And the others didn't have children until later on, so I came along and my sisters came later. And my father wasn't as busy when I was born. And as my sisters came along, he became more and more active in the community. In fact he was even 26 president -- not president, he was treasurer of the Boy Scouts in Nashoba Valley, and he never had any boys. SPEAKER 1: So it seems as though he… DOTTIE: That's right, he was always, he was president of the Chamber of Commerce a couple of times, he was involved with Rotary. SPEAKER 1: What was that about him? DOTTIE: He liked people. He liked to be active. He liked to be busy. See, that was his hobby more or less because he didn't golf, he didn't do any of those things. So he kept busy and active in politics and whatnot. SPEAKER 1: Did he ever have a talk with you as far as being [unintelligible - 00:59:42]? DOTTIE: Maybe we just kind of -- no, I don't think so. I think he just took it for granted that, you know, it was amazing how far he came, he had a lot of foresight because he took chances where, you know, it was unheard of. Like he bought this building that was like a shell, and he -- the man that built was… bought it to… he built it to park cars and it… and my father turned around and he said, "Well we could put a store there, right?" and he did. SPEAKER 1: Well, how did he get involved in the furniture business? DOTTIE: He started with the oil business, then from the oil business he started -- he went to school to learn how to install burners, you know oil burners, 'cause he was selling the oil then he needed the burners. Then from that there he started to sell appliances, and from appliances he started to -- you know, furniture, you know, little by little, and then he would go to the furniture shows and started the [unintelligible - 01:00:55]. SPEAKER 1: Did he have [unintelligible - 01:00:58]. DOTTIE: No. SPEAKER 1: No. DOTTIE: People would say, "Oh yeah, he had [unintelligible - 01:01:02]." No. One time he went to the bank to borrow money because he didn't have -- he wanted to buy I think a car load of, I don't know, refrigerators or 27 something, and he went to borrow I want to say a thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact amount. And because he was not really established, they said no. And he -- the doctor that was friendly with us, he loaned him the money. SPEAKER 1: What was his name again? DOTTIE: The house. But she was -- I said why don't you use this. Oh I can do it quicker. SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, by the time you rent [unintelligible - 01:01:46] you know. Anyway, we just had to replace the batteries, and now we're back in business. So you said -- you were talking about your father and the furniture business, how the doctor helped him, loaned him money. DOTTIE: Yes, and he paid him back, and then they remained… he was like a brother… they were the closest thing to a brother. I mean, he was Jewish, and -- but they really remained friends until they both passed away. SPEAKER 1: Really? DOTTIE: Yes. He was -- in fact, on Christmas day my father and I would… we would go to visit them, bring a gift to both of them, he and his wife, and we would have coffee or whatever on Christmas. We would do that Christmas morning, or was it before? I can't remember if it was Christmas morning or just before Christmas, because -- I mean, they just were you know… he never ever did, never! He had, you know, basically the same friends that he had all his life. [Unintelligible - 01:03:01] too. Where I have, you know, the same friends as we had since I was a kid, I don't -- you know, you acquire a few on the way, but basically the same people I've been involved with most of my life. Well, of course I never… I never moved out of the area, so… My sister one time said that if I was on welfare, I would still be a millionaire because of my friends. Yes, yes. So like I said feel I've been blessed in 28 that respect. Priest last night says how would I want to be remembered? I want to be remembered that I loved and I was loved. SPEAKER 1: Yes, that's… DOTTIE: Well, if you really want to make money you can make money. But I think friendship is more important than anything, because you can't buy that. 'Cause once the money is gone, the people that you bought are gone. You have money going up and you don't coming down and you have true friends; your friends are going to be there for you. Not really, no, I think that's an individual thing. I don't know, 'cause I -- first of all I think because my mother and father always entertained, I tend to still do that. I don't do it as much because my husband was the one that did the cooking and stuff, so not a lot of, you know, people coming into dinner and… SPEAKER 1: You and me. DOTTIE: I mean we would have brunches like, we'd invite half the, you know, the complex. I mean… SPEAKER 1: Did you live in Maine or was that… DOTTIE: We just had a summer -- I mean, it was the condo that we would go in, in the winter months, but not like going in the summer. We would still just go on the weekends. But I would take Saturday… I'd work Saturday and leave Saturday, and then I would take Monday and Tuesday off instead of taking a -- sometimes I would take a couple of weeks, but towards the end we just would take longer weekends [unintelligible - 01:05:21]. So we had it up until… I sold it -- it's going to be three years. We were together about 25 years but legally married about 12, I guess. Eighty-four, but he was just a -- like I said, like the people that we went last night to the funeral, they said we were just talking about Teddy Christmas time. He was the type that -- like I said, he would holler and scream, but that would be over within two seconds. And I mean, he just 29 [unintelligible - 01:06:00] go get him, give him a cup of coffee, get him a drink, do this. I think so. I'm not so much as business-minded, but personality wise I think he had a lot of my father's traits because they all, they both like people. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 01:06:20] furniture store? DOTTIE: He was actually a leather [unintelligible - 01:06:25] he managed -- he was bartender and he managed it. It was at that -- right now it's where the weather vane is. It used to be called King's Corner, and he worked there for a good many -- but he looked after when my father passed away and I had to run the store so he would come in to help out, but not really work at it. But he helped out. SPEAKER 1: When did your father pass away? DOTTIE: 1984, the year I got married. SPEAKER 1: Oh. [Unintelligible - 01:06:54] DOTTIE: Yes, yes, yes. SPEAKER 1: What was that like? DOTTIE: That was not as enjoyable, because first of all I loved, I loved to wait on customers, and you know, sew and decorate. That was my forte. Than I had to worry about bills, I had to worry about hiring, I had to worry about firing, I had to worry, had to -- all the responsibilities that go with running a business, and it wasn't as fun. One time Teddy said I stopped doing that because it wasn't fun. I guess it comes to that point when you realize, 'cause I -- you know, sometimes it's "Oh, I hate going to work, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it." But you say that just to [unintelligible - 01:07:41]. Actually I enjoyed working with the customers, and even to this day if I'm out and they said, "Oh, I'm sorry you don't have the store anymore," or, "You know what? I still have the sofa that you sold me 20 years ago." So it's just a store, it was when it was time to close it. So I know what I 30 should have probably done, and I still have the building, which has been up for sale, really, for the last couple of years… of last year, but it's, you know, we should have done it two years ago. SPEAKER 1: So you were involved for so long in this store. How long did you work there about? DOTTIE: I got out at -- let's see I was 18, 19, 20… till I was about 58, so 20 to 58. SPEAKER 1: I imagine your customer base, did it change over time? DOTTIE: Believe it or not, if we started with the grandmother and father, then we got the daughter or the son, and then we got the son's kids, and so we're -- a lot of it was just the same generation. I mean, we got new customers; don't get me wrong. I think the biggest -- at one time we had Devon's, you know, Devon used to have soldiers, okay, so I said it was Fort Devon's. And I had a customer come in and said so and so sent me, and I says -- of course the name didn't hit a bell, and they says, "Oh yeah, they were in Germany." Excuse me? Yeah they said they knew we were coming here, and they said we'll need furniture, and they said to make sure they said you come see us. And we did we got a lot of word of mouth and had one customer that they would come in every week, and I would chat with them and they'd buy a chair or something small. I'd give them -- we always had coffee, we had coffee, so we'd offer my customers coffee. I mean, I would tell the girls or the people that were selling -- when they come in that door you treat them like they are coming into your home and bring me to them. So when a customer -- I would try to cultivate them. And so like this customer buys this enormous house, and now they need it furnished, and so now they also need draperies and… oh, my sister [unintelligible - 01:10:25] just had a flair for decorating. You are going to handle the drapes, you are going to -- we have this company that we 31 dealt with where, you know, on a small basis as far as if you came in and said I want some draperies, I said, "Okay, measure your walls and whatever," and we had a small company that we would deal with. So this was -- and when I tell you, this house, they called it the castle. I mean, it had -- it was unbelievable! Now she did all the draperies, and I sold them every room of furniture except I think they had already bought a dining room set, but everything else I did. Now, at the time -- this is over 20 years ago, thousand dollars, so that was a lot of money, but with the furniture, [unintelligible - 01:11:19] says, "Well, how are they going to pay for this?" I says, "I don't know." I just was going crazy. About two or three days later the lady walks in and she says, "Can we go somewhere?" "Yeah, we can go in my father's office," so she closed the door, and she goes boom-boom-boom, she whipped out $20,000 of cash. I almost had a heart attack. That was my biggest sale. I mean, one person. Did they have a complaint on anything? Nothing, except something I gave them -- the man says, "Oh, the top of the shelf is scratched." I said, "Oh, you didn't pay for that." Oh, okay. It was pebble stone base, and it was going to be [unintelligible - 01:12:07] going to put a statue on it. So I said well, I'm not going to charge you for this because it's got a few scratches on it. So he says everything's okay except, you know, the base of this is scratched. I said, "Well, you didn't pay for that." "Oh, okay. Thank you." SPEAKER 1: So how in the beginning of your involvement, how did customers pay? DOTTIE: How do they pay? On a weekly basis. They would come in, and they would -- I don't even know if we charged them interest. I guess then we started doing what we called a pre-payment plan, which was considered cash in 90 days, but it had to be broken into three payments. 32 And then we had the company that would buy the paper if, you know, rather than carry -- I forget the company we used. I don't know if it was… one of those companies. And then sometimes if it was a good customer that's been doing business they didn't want to go through that, then we would charge them the interest for the year, however long it took. And then we had customers that just paid weekly that came in for years and years and years. That was part of their, I mean, weekly… I had friends that would come in just to have coffee. I mean, they would have the day off, and they'd come in with their -- one friend had a grandmother that was -- she says, "Oh, let's go see Dottie. We'll have a cup of coffee." That like that Mrs. [unintelligible - 01:13:42], she's like, "Oh, let's go see Dottie. We'll have coffee with her." So I miss that part; I miss that closeness with the customers. Like I said, I treated my customers like they were my friends. Just because -- I did it mainly because it was easier to sell them, and then they kept coming back. And like I said, I enjoyed that part of it. Well, the trends went from outer out -- you know, they have the outer margin, and then it went to your country, which stayed in for until I almost closed, and then they had a lot of traditional, which was -- I remember one time a customer came in and said, "That sofa is down the street for $500 less," and I says, "I don't think… /AT/pa/mb/es
Interview with Phyllis Lanza Caligaris. Topics include: Family history. Immigration of her grandfather, Emmanuel Montagna, and grandmother, Francesca Marrama, to the United States from Italy. Work history of her grandfather and how he would create a business, build it up, and sell it. Eventually, he opened Monty's Garden Restaurant in Leominster, MA. Her grandparents rented rooms to Italian immigrants in Leominster. What Monty's was like when it first opened, the people who worked there, the menu, the patrons, the hours. How the business changed over the years as it was passed on from Phyllis' grandfather, to her father, to her husband. Memories of her grandfather. What it means to be Italian. What it is like to be in business with family. ; 1 SPEAKER 1: It's Friday, December 7th. It's 10:20. We're at Monty's Restaurant, Central Street in Leominster. We're interviewing Phyllis Lanza Caligaris, and thank you, first of all, Phyllis. And I'm not sure; did I say your last name correctly? PHYLLIS: Correctly. SPEAKER 1: Okay. All right, and it's my understanding that your grandfather started Monty's. PHYLLIS: Yes. SPEAKER 1: So can you tell me a little bit about him personally? Not just the restaurant business, but… PHYLLIS: Okay. SPEAKER 1: What you remember about him? PHYLLIS: I can't determine what year he immigrated to the United States. There's no records in the Ellis Island files, so I assume he sailed into Boston. As with the rest of his siblings, I cannot find any info. But I know he was born 1879 and died 1960, and he came to America from a town called LaRocca. SPEAKER 1: Can you spell that? PHYLLIS: L-a capital R-O-C-C-A in the province of Abruzzi, A-B-R-U-Z-Z-I. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: I have no idea what year. SPEAKER 1: Now, what is his name? PHYLLIS: Emmanuel Montagna. SPEAKER 1: Okay. And when he came, you think, to Boston, was it alone? Or was he traveling with other people, do you know? PHYLLIS: I have no idea, I have no idea. SPEAKER 1: Did he ever mention why he left? PHYLLIS: Well, I imagine like all other immigrants, for a better life here in the United States. In Italy, there were no jobs, no future. As well as my father immigrated to the United States as a young boy at the age of 12. But this person, my grandfather, when he immigrated -- I don't know too 2 much about his early childhood, only from when he married my grandmother, and then his education and his endeavors from that point on. And if you'd like me to… SPEAKER 1: Tell me what your grandmother. Who did he marry? PHYLLIS: He married Francesca Marrama. SPEAKER 1: Can you spell that? PHYLLIS: M-A-R-R-A-M-A. SPEAKER 1: Okay. And was she from Abruzzi? PHYLLIS: The province of Abruzzi, but the town, the next town to LaRocca called Pendama. And that is spelled P-E-N-D-A-M-A. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: But they didn't know each other, and they met in Reedville, Mass, which is outside of Boston. They married in 1900 at the Stone Church where the reservoir is in West Boylston. And he, when he was a young man, was in construction and worked on that and helped build that church. It has nice memories, you know? To think that he worked on that church and helped build the reservoir, and he got married there. SPEAKER 1: Now was that -- I don't really know the history of that church. Was it indeed a church? PHYLLIS: Oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then for the longest time, it went idle, so to speak. And I still don't know today if they've refurbished it and are using it. SPEAKER 1: They don't use it as a church. I've actually never been inside, but I do know a lot of couples get their wedding. [Crosstalk] But I believe there aren't even windows in it. I think it's just a construction. PHYLLIS: Yeah. SPEAKER 1: So anyway, what was he doing in Reedville? PHYLLIS: I have no idea. For most of this history, comes down to me from my mother and what she remembered. And when I asked the question how they met, she said they met in [Ricco]. SPEAKER 1: Okay.3 PHYLLIS: And then at one point my grandmother was living in West Boylston, and he was working construction on the reservoir and the church; and whether they met there, I don't know, but I know they got married there. SPEAKER 1: Now what was your grandmo-, oh your grandmother was Marrama, okay. PHYLLIS: Marrama. SPEAKER 1: Marrama, okay. PHYLLIS: And she was 16 years old and he was 21. SPEAKER 1: Do you have any idea of why your grandfather would've come to Leominster? PHYLLIS: Usually, what happens with immigrants, they go to the town where other family members have gone before them, and they live with these family members until they get on their feet. And I'm sure that was the case because all of his siblings located in the Leominster area. SPEAKER 1: Okay. Do you want to tell me more about the church or West Boylston? PHYLLIS: No, no. I have no history on that at all. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: I do have a lot of history on him, and he couldn't speak English when he came here, so he knew in order to advance himself he would have to -- he taught himself as well as going to night school. And I was reading an article about him, and this is quoting the article: "After moving to Leominster, he took advantage of night school, where he was accorded one of the best pupils in the school, making rapid strides under the tutorship of Attorney J. Ward Healey, who was principal of the night school at that time." You know, it just was interesting. SPEAKER 1: Now where was that clipping from? PHYLLIS: It was from a 25th anniversary write-up about my grandmother and grandfather. SPEAKER 1: Oh, I see. Now, did your grandmother speak English? PHYLLIS: No, I'm sure she didn't. SPEAKER 1: So you didn't know her?4 PHYLLIS: Yes, I did. By the time I arrived, she spoke broken English, but you could understand her. See, these people were self-taught. You know, in order to survive, you had to learn English. SPEAKER 1: So he was working construction. How did he get involved in the restaurant business? PHYLLIS: That comes at the end. This gentleman was into everything. SPEAKER 1: Oh, okay. PHYLLIS: Everything. You'd be amazed at his life. They had three children. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: One son, who died, and two daughters. One of the daughters was my mother. SPEAKER 1: Okay. Why don't you tell me their names, the daughters? PHYLLIS: All right, okay. One was Mildred Lanza, Mildred Montagna Lanza, and the other one was Alice Montagna Tossi. SPEAKER 1: The son who died? PHYLLIS: His name was Henry Montagna. SPEAKER 1: I never thought of Henry as an Italian name, and I keep hearing it. PHYLLIS: I thought about that. I thought about that. And knowing my grandparents, I would've thought that they would've named him Henrico, which is Italian for Henry. But on the gravestone, it says Henry. So I was really surprised because that is not an -- well, they do have Henry in Italian. SPEAKER 1: I just interviewed someone with -- a Henry is in their family, too. PHYLLIS: Really? SPEAKER 1: So, okay. So unfortunately, their baby boy died. But you can just continue and tell me what you know about him. PHYLLIS: All right. My grandfather was as an ever-young man as well as through his adulthood, was a very enterprising man. In 1911 he opened the first movie house in Leominster called the Past Time. It was a silent movie house, and he charged 5 cents per person, and he gave away dishes to attract customers. The movie house was located in the old wood block in 5 the center of Leominster in Monument Square, and I imagine it was located there because he lived there with his family on the 3 rd floor. SPEAKER 1: Now, I think it was pretty common for theaters to offer dishes and plates, was it? PHYLLIS: Yep. SPEAKER 1: Do you have any of those original plates? PHYLLIS: No, no, no. Because I wasn't even born. My mother never kept anything, and I don't think Depression glass was in 1911. That was -- Depression glass was 1929, you know, so. But my mother told me this, she said… SPEAKER 1: So this is about 1911 then. PHYLLIS: 1911 when he opened the first movie theater in Leominster called the Past Time. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: And after the movie house, he went to work for Yale Novelty Manufacturing Company on the corner of Johnson and Lancaster Street in Leominster. And my grandmother also worked there, and they made celluloid hairpins. SPEAKER 1: Now, is this before your mother would've been born? PHYLLIS: My mother was born in 1904. So this was after. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: I think 1906. I think he was 2 years old when he died. SPEAKER 1: Right, so was he born… PHYLLIS: He was born first; probably 1902. SPEAKER 1: Okay. Working at the Yale Manufacturing Company, and when is this? Did they sell the movie house, or…? PHYLLIS: He would start businesses, prosper, and then sell them. And this is the events, how they transpired, according to my mother. So I don't know who he sold the movie house to, but then he went on to the Yale Novelty. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: Also worked for the Far Florist Company on Orchard Street, and there he developed a love of flowers and gardens, which would be incorporated 6 into the name of his last endeavor, which was this restaurant, Monty's Garden Restaurant. SPEAKER 1: Now, where did Monty come from? Montagna? PHYLLIS: Okay, that is the last endeavor, and that will explain all the names. Okay, if I can explain them? SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: And getting back to the timeline, he then opened the first pool parlor on Pleasant Street where the day and night store is. And during his ownership of the pool parlor, he promoted wrestling matches at the town hall featuring a man named Jack Morrow. Now, Jack Morrow was Italian, but they Americanized his name. I don't know what his Italian name was. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: Next business, he started the first bus line in Leominster at the start of Lancaster Street bringing workers down to the viscaloid shop on Lancaster Street. He had an open-bed truck with chairs in the back of it, and he would transport workers that worked in the factory down there. And eventually, if he made more money, he bought buses and had a bus company. The bus company he then sold to his brother Antonio Montagna. SPEAKER 1: I was wondering, did he have a partnership with his brothers when he was doing this? PHYLLIS: No, no, no. He did this all on his own. SPEAKER 1: On his own? PHYLLIS: Yeah. His next venture was an open food store in Monument Square, which is right where Friendly's is about now. And it was called the Montagna Food Company. As the business grew, he became partners with Luigi DiGiovanni, and he sold out to his partner, and the store was eventually to be named the Gloria Chain store, which became a full-service Italian market. SPEAKER 1: The Gloria Change Store? PHYLLIS: Chain.7 SPEAKER 1: Chain. PHYLLIS: Chain, C-H-A-I-N. SPEAKER 1: Where did Gloria come from? PHYLLIS: I have no idea; you'd have to ask descendents of Luigi DiGiovanni. Now, his next venture was selling oil burners in a building at the rear of 35 Central Street. It was called the Rainbow Oil Burner Company. And his future son-in-law, Phillip Lanza worked for him. He then bought the 3-decker building in the front of this 35 rear Central Street. He bought the 3-decker building that faced Central Street, and his family lived on the 3rd floor. The 2nd floor he rented out rooms to roomers, and the first floor he rented out to retail business. Always had an income coming in. And he had a lot of vision and he could foresee in 1933 that the repeal of prohibition was going to happen. So he went out and applied for the first liquor license in Leominster and opened the first restaurant in Leominster called Monty's Garden Restaurant. SPEAKER 1: This is the first restaurant? PHYLLIS: Restaurant, yep. SPEAKER 1: Wow. PHYLLIS: Now, Monty's… SPEAKER 1: Now what year was this? PHYLLIS: 1933. Monty's is short for Montagna; they used to call my grandfather Mr. Monty. And garden was because of the murals he had painted on the walls. And in fact, we still have some of the murals in the old section of the restaurant. He just loved the flowers and gardens. His home on Fort Pawn when he had it built, he had trellises and flowers hanging gardens all over and maintained them mostly himself. SPEAKER 1: Now, did he paint these murals, or he had…? PHYLLIS: He had them painted by a gentleman from Connecticut, and I believe his name is still on the mural, I think. We'd have to go look. Now this restaurant is still in the family, and with the 5th generation great-great 8 granddaughter working here, [Alana Fruschett]. Two of my daughters and one of my sons runs the restaurant. The other children, another son owns his own restaurant in Worcester. SPEAKER 1: And that was Stefano's. PHYLLIS: Stefano's, and my daughter and her husband own the pasta company below the restaurant, and her sister works there. So everyone in my family is in the food industry in one aspect or another. SPEAKER 1: Wow. So this is the same location as 1933, well I can see that it is. PHYLLIS: Yeah. SPEAKER 1: And did you ever think of expanding downstairs, to have the restaurant also downstairs? PHYLLIS: Well, my grandfather never wanted -- everybody's asked, why is the restaurant upstairs? Because he wanted to have retail stores down there to have the income. Plus, there are a lot of taverns located in this area. And he didn't want the people frequenting the taverns to just pop into the restaurant. Going up the stairs kind of prohibited -- it made for selective customers, let's put it that way. Okay? SPEAKER 1: So is this a 2-story building? I guess I didn't pay attention. PHYLLIS: Three-story. SPEAKER 1: Three? So what's above? PHYLLIS: Right now, they're using it for office space and storage. SPEAKER 1: And what was it used for back then? PHYLLIS: They lived on the 3rd floor, my grandparents and my aunt and my mother. Second floor was for roomers. He had tenants, you know, that would rent rooms. SPEAKER 1: On the second, here? PHYLLIS: Yes. SPEAKER 1: In this building? Behind the restaurant, or where? PHYLLIS: You know, this is a 3-story building. SPEAKER 1: Aren't we on the 2nd? PHYLLIS: This is where the roomers were, on this floor. 9 SPEAKER 1: Oh okay, before he opened the restaurant. PHYLLIS: Before he opened the restaurant. Once he opened the restaurant, on the 2nd floor -- he still had roomers on the 3rd floor because by then my aunt and my mother had moved out into their own homes. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: So they still rented rooms up there, and my grandmother was such a hard worker. She not only helped with the restaurant in cooking and cleaning, she'd have to take care of the rooms of the roomers too, you know? SPEAKER 1: So let's talk a little bit about the boarding, the rooms. Who did they rent these rooms to? PHYLLIS: Well, you know, what I mentioned how when an immigrant comes to an area where there are other relatives or people that they knew in Italy, they want to congregate or relocate in the same area that they do? Well, sometimes they're not necessarily people that have families here. So they didn't have anyone and they didn't know where to go, or where to live, or they didn't have the funds, and people would tell them to go see Mr. Monty, he will help you. So my grandfather rented out rooms to people that -- immigrants from Italy. And some were not immigrants, some were just people that relocated here and they would just say Mr. Montagna has a rooming house, he will help you. You know? And many people came here and rented rooms at one time, just to get started, you know? SPEAKER 1: About how many rooms are we talking about? PHYLLIS: About 4 rooms. SPEAKER 1: Four? PHYLLIS: Four rooms. Once he had the restaurant, now I don't know how many rooms -- there must have been quite a few rooms on the 2nd floor before the restaurant. See, I only have knowledge of the four upstairs. But before them, I have no idea. SPEAKER 1: And now there are offices up there, you said? PHYLLIS: Yeah, yeah.10 SPEAKER 1: So was it basically word of mouth? PHYLLIS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can remember when I lived above the restaurant with my family, because I think it was a stopping place for many people because we didn't have to pay rent, and we still had roomers, and I remember the Salvation Army calling a lot of times asking if we had rooms for people that they couldn't house, you know? But after awhile we just stopped doing it because it was too much work. By the time my father took over the restaurant, and my mother -- I remember she had a few roomers, but then by the time -- and then I had, when I lived up there, I took care of some rooms too. But after I moved out, they discontinued having the rooms. SPEAKER 1: Now, did your mother or sister also get involved n the restaurant business? PHYLLIS: Well, my aunt -- no, but her husband did work as a bartender for my grandfather early on in 1930s. SPEAKER 1: I'm not sure, did you give -- you did give me her married name. PHYLLIS: Yes, Tossi. SPEAKER 1: Tossi, okay. So your mother. PHYLLIS: My mother. SPEAKER 1: She worked so hard? PHYLLIS: Well, that was my grandmother. SPEAKER 1: Yes, your grandmother. PHYLLIS: My father also worked for my grandfather as a bartender, and later on becoming the cook. And my mother worked very hard too. She didn't do much down here in the line of cooking, but she cleaned the downstairs, and she cleaned the rooms for the roomers, so she worked hard also. SPEAKER 1: Now your grandfather, was he primarily a manager/owner of this restaurant, or did he actually cook? PHYLLIS: No, he didn't cook. He was out front management, the best salesman you could ever have. He treated his customers like royalty, knew everybody by their name, his old cronies, would pour them extra drinks, you know. 11 He'd be behind the bar most of the time, and that's where his customers wanted to see him, behind the bar. "Oh, here's Mr. Monty. Hi Monty, how you doing? How's this going?" You know, that's part of the out front management, know your customers, treat your customers well. And I have to go into his other life away from the restaurant. He had a very active life, and that is my next segment. SPEAKER 1: Okay, can we still talk about the restaurant a little bit more? PHYLLIS: Sure, sure. SPEAKER 1: Who did he hire as a cook? Was that also a family member? PHYLLIS: No, no, these two gentlemen were from Boston. He hired a Paul [Solafia], and we used to call him Tiny [Bissonet]. Now his descendants are still around as well as Mr. Solafia's descendents, but they have both passed on. And after that, then there was my father in the kitchen, and my father taught my husband what he knows today. And then my husband passed all those learning techniques to my sons and one daughter who worked in the kitchen. And you know, it's been passed down like that, same recipes. SPEAKER 1: Back then was there a specialty that people would come in for? PHYLLIS: I should show you the old menu. SPEAKER 1: Oh yeah. PHYLLIS: Do you want to [show that]? SPEAKER 1: Well we'll look at it after we're done. PHYLLIS: I mean, when you consider spaghetti and meatball and a salad for 50 cents. SPEAKER 1: That would be like a dream come true now, wouldn't it? PHYLLIS: Oh boy, that was wonderful. And don't forget, this was the only restaurant. You know? Maybe they had diners, but this was the only restaurant, and they served Italian and American food. At one point he was serving Chinese food, chop suey, chow mein, and remember the Asian gentleman coming in and delivering his product, and it seemed funny that an Italian restaurant would serve that. But then you think back, there was no other really sit-down nice restaurant. SPEAKER 1: Was there an Asian population that used to come in?12 PHYLLIS: No. SPEAKER 1: So this is just… PHYLLIS: This is, you know, people that were used to going to Boston to get Chinese food, thereby thinking again, you know, why let them go to Boston when they can get it here? My grandfather was always thinking, always thinking. SPEAKER 1: Now, who primarily were the customers? I mean it's my understanding that people back then, let's say Italians, didn't really go out to dinner. Or is that just a myth? PHYLLIS: That's a myth. That's a myth. Many couples today that have passed on used to tell me when I worked here, you know, we got engaged up here in the booth. I presented my wife with her diamond, or I asked her to marry me, and they continue to bring their children and their grandchildren. So it's a tradition, you know? Oh boy, when I was working I would hear many stories from the customers, "Oh, your grandfather did this," or he was that. But to pinpoint people, there were so many, and there were a lot of Italians. SPEAKER 1: There were. PHYLLIS: A lot of Italians, a lot of politicians because my grandfather was involved, not directly with politics but committees, civic committees. But we'll go into that after we finish here. SPEAKER 1: Well I imagine it was sort of exciting back in the early '30s and mid '30s to share the Italian culture with the rest of Leominster. Do you remember ethnic group coming in and maybe being used to that kind of food? PHYLLIS: Well, I really don't want to pinpoint. SPEAKER 1: You don't have to pinpoint particular people. PHYLLIS: Just even particular ethnic backgrounds, you know. But I remember working when I had customers come in. Sugar on the [unintelligible - 00:26:58]. Another time I remember serving—because I waitressed here too—I remember ketchup on their spaghetti and sauce. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't go back to the table, you know. 13 But your Italian people were used to eating food like that, that they would serve here, and American people that weren't familiar with some of the dishes. But once they tasted it, you know, they would always order certain things. And of course the menu items changed over the years. They still served meat, steaks. SPEAKER 1: So did your grandfather introduce that, steak? PHYLLIS: Oh yes. He used to go to Boston, I don't know how many times a week, whereas now with the expressway, and he would go to the butcher shop and he would buy sides of beef and cartons of fruit and cartons of fresh vegetables and bring them back. And I remember going with him when I was a little girl; it was so interesting, you know, and everybody knew him in Boston in the market area. But he could get a better price by doing it that way than going through a third person, you know? A middleman. So you know, I can remember when my father was cooking here seeing him go in the big walk-in cooler and taking a knife and cutting off steak, of a side of beef. Or cutting off a certain portion and making hamburger or a roast or whatever, you know? Those are my memories of the kitchen. SPEAKER 1: Now, did he have maybe a different clientele? Let's say for the bar area, there were kind of regulars there? PHYLLIS: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people would come in just to have a drink. But these were -- they were not the tavern people that would go for a drink. They'd come in, in suits, and you know, they may have a drink before they went to the movies. See, the movie house was right adjacent to this building, and many people would either come before the movie or after the movies because we were open until two o'clock at that time. SPEAKER 1: Two o'clock in the morning? PHYLLIS: Yep. The only restaurant in Leominster, you're going to stay open for your customers when, you know -- of course the movie house would run two shows, and people would want to eat after the show or before. SPEAKER 1: Would it be a full menu still until two o'clock?14 PHYLLIS: Oh yes, oh yeah. I can remember when my father came into the business, he would tell me it was really hard to work until two o'clock in the morning and then go to bed and get up the next day and work the next day, you know? So when he took it over, he did away with two o'clock. Twelve o'clock. And then when my husband came into the business, it was 11, and then it went to 10. He said this, you know, it's too much. SPEAKER 1: I was just reading that Americans in particular, they're getting up earlier, they're going to bed earlier. So do you see that? PHYLLIS: Well, yes. SPEAKER 1: I mean, not necessarily not to go to dinner. PHYLLIS: Well yes, we do. Because your dinner hour is -- you have your early birds at four o'clock; those are the ones that go to bed at eight. And then about 8:30 it dies down, and you'll have your stragglers who are coming in after shopping, or a movie will come in, and we're open until 10 for that. SPEAKER 1: It's so different let's say in Europe where things are just heating up then, right? PHYLLIS: I went to Spain and things -- you know, 10 o'clock was very early for them to go out to eat. You know? And breakfast, you couldn't get any breakfast until 11. SPEAKER 1: It's so different. PHYLLIS: Unless you just wanted a coffee. SPEAKER 1: So first of all, was the restaurant set up in this way? PHYLLIS: No, this room here was always here, but there were booths all along the wall. They remodeled it to make it a banquet room, and the addition -- oh goodness, I can't think of it. They put the addition on -- my daughter would know, from seating maybe 50 people, we expanded it to… SPEAKER 1: When he opened it he could seat about 50? PHYLLIS: Well yeah, yes, yes. I'd say that, 50, 60. But when my husband and I took it over, our business was booming so much that people -- there was a 2-hour wait. SPEAKER 1: Now when was this?15 PHYLLIS: 1960, when my husband -- well, we knew, first of all we asked our children before we think of an addition, are you willing to stay on and work? And they said yes. And we went on and added a whole new kitchen and a whole new dining room, keeping the same décor in the booths that our customers insisted upon. They said if you don't have these booths in your new section, we're not coming back, you know? And they were so happy to see that we did. SPEAKER 1: There's so much more pride… PHYLLIS: Oh God. SPEAKER 1: So now your grandmother, how involved was she in this enterprise? PHYLLIS: Well, she went right along with my grandfather. She helped cook, she helped cleaned the downstairs for the downstairs restaurant, and she maintained the cleaning in the rooms of the roomers. So she was busy, she was a hard worker, a very hard worker. SPEAKER 1: So your grandfather, he must have been satisfied finally because this is his -- was this his last endeavor? Or was that… PHYLLIS: Well, it was his last business endeavor. SPEAKER 1: Business? PHYLLIS: Yeah, once he moved from above the restaurant, he built a home on Fort Pond, and he was more or less in retirement. He would still come in to check and make sure everything was okay, that my father was doing what he wanted my father to do; but eventually he became sickly, and that's when he stopped. SPEAKER 1: How many days was it open? PHYLLIS: He had it open seven days a week. SPEAKER 1: Wow. PHYLLIS: But this is my grandfather the businessman, you know? You have customers, they want to eat, you open seven days a week. SPEAKER 1: So I don't imagine you had a big Italian population for Sundays, or did you?16 PHYLLIS: No, it was mostly the other ethnic backgrounds that came in on Sunday. Because, you know, the Italians always gathered at their grandmother's house or their mother's house for Sunday dinner. It was, you know, a lot of loners, a lot of other ethnic background couples that would come as a treat to go out on Sunday, you know? SPEAKER 1: Do you think this was all of his employees back in 1933? PHYLLIS: Oh yeah, yeah. SPEAKER 1: And did they typically stay with him for a long time? PHYLLIS: Well, I was born in '34, the only ones I don't remember, this gentleman, this gentleman, the rest I remember. SPEAKER 1: So the two… PHYLLIS: I don't remember their names except her. They stayed. Her name is Gabrielle [Grenash]. SPEAKER 1: Grenash? PHYLLIS: I don't remember the others. SPEAKER 1: So it looks like two, four, twelve, eleven to twelve employees. PHYLLIS: Yeah. SPEAKER 1: And I think marking before the tape was running, but can you just explain those costumes a little bit that the waitresses wore? PHYLLIS: Well, in Italy, each little province or town had their own native dress, and I think he probably wanted to incorporate that with the red, the white, and the green colors of the Italian flag. So where my grandfather came from, the women wore these vests, and it was like a -- what's the word? SPEAKER 1: Bra? PHYLLIS: Bustier? SPEAKER 1: Oh yeah. PHYLLIS: You know, similar to that with black and white peasant blouse. Their hair in some kind of black scarf. And I'm sure it was similar to that where my grandfather came from, and he wanted something that was going to be reminiscent of Italy and with the Italian colors as well. Now, I don't know if I still have [age groups]. The first one did go into something similar to 17 that, trying to keep a tradition, but then it just became too cost-effective, you know, [unintelligible - 00:36:47] them and launder them and everything. SPEAKER 1: I'm thinking of keeping them clean. PHYLLIS: Well, yeah. SPEAKER 1: Because that looks difficult to do. PHYLLIS: Yeah. SPEAKER 1: There's so much white. Now, was he open for lunch also? PHYLLIS: Oh yeah. SPEAKER 1: For lunch and dinner. PHYLLIS: Just lunch and dinner seven days a week. Then as a new generation took over, they'd cut the hours down, although my father did keep seven days a week. When my husband and I took it over, we decided on Tuesday to close, on Tuesday because all the other restaurants were closed on Monday, so why not stay open on Monday? SPEAKER 1: So you have some of your grandfather's marketing expertise, evidently. So tell me what a day in his life was like owning the restaurant. PHYLLIS: Well, it was mostly -- you know he'd come in to his office, he'd go over the books, he'd do his bookkeeping, you know, his daily bookkeeping. And then he would take my grandmother and then go into Boston and spend the day in Boston purchasing the items I told you. And going to visit other friends, and then coming back so he could work the bar at night. SPEAKER 1: This is obviously after he became successful, but that's when you really remembered anyway. PHYLLIS: Yeah, I don't remember him working at the floor. I have pictures of him -- or in any other businesses he had, I wasn't around. And you know, it seems as though they didn't save too much then, like pictures and things. It was hard to come by some of these pictures that I do have. Now my children are all clamoring for them, you know? They want to carry on this heritage, and I'm so glad I talked to my mother. SPEAKER 1: Oh, I know. You have…18 PHYLLIS: So glad I talked to my mother about all this. SPEAKER 1: So what's the day for you like? Was it similar in any way? PHYLLIS: Well, when I was working here, I just worked the weekends because they were the busiest, keeping in mind I had six children at home [unintelligible - 00:39:13], and I'd be working. It was so busy, so very, very busy. Very stressful. Worrying about my children, are they okay, my teenagers, what are they doing, are they home on time, getting ready to seat the next customers, getting a call from home, it was horrible, it was horrible, that aspect of it. But the other aspect, the gratifying aspect was seeing customers that were older than me coming back and telling me stories about my grandfather, "Oh, Mr. Monty did this," or, "We've been coming here for 25 years," and knowing your customer by name. You know? They loved that if you recognized them, it meant something to them. And my husband was even busier than I was. He would be working 60 hours a week, it was hard for him. And that's when he decided to start cutting down the hours, the night hours, closing hours, and closing one day a week. He says, "I need that one day—not to relax, just to get things done," to have improvements done, or repairs done, or certain cleaning done to the stove, and things like that. He needed an extra day; and on his day off he was here all day. SPEAKER 1: Actually, you both talked about this. So you're glad that you continued with the business? PHYLLIS: Yes in one aspect because it's a two-sided feeling. The good side was it provided us with a very excellent way of life. Secondly, the other side of the coin, we had no family life. You know how the Italians get together on Sunday? We didn't have that. My husband was always working. So my father, who loved -- I'm an only child, so he just loved being with my children. He would take us out to dinner with all my children, so they got used to going out to eat very 19 young and being very critical of the menu and, you know. Being in the food business, you know, they grew up that way. Holidays my husband insisted, when he had the business, we close on Christmas, close on Thanksgiving, and close on Easter. We were open for New Year's Day, but you know, you had everybody that had hangovers come in on New Year's Day, so my husband said, we're closing New Year's Day, too. And that was really the only time we could get together as a family. So you have your advantages and you have your disadvantages, and you try to mesh them together. SPEAKER 1: Now, does that mean your grandfather was open during Christmas Day, Thanksgiving Day? PHYLLIS: Always the businessman. I remember coming up here into this room having Christmas dinner with my grandparents and my mother, and myself and my aunt and her family, and my father having to cook, you know, for us, for our customers that came in. You know, and he'd run in, you know, because he was busy in the kitchen. I always remembered that. I remember one Thanksgiving I had it by myself in a booth, I felt so terrible. Because my father was working, and my mother, she was upstairs, she didn't want to come down, and I don't know where the rest of the family was then, you know? But I remember being alone then. SPEAKER 1: Did that in any way become a stimulus for you to have six children? PHYLLIS: Well, it provided the stimulus to have as much family get-togethers as possible. You know, there's a lot of family time, let's all be together. If you want to bring your friends over that's okay, but this is our time. Tuesdays, Tuesday night it was a special time; either we went out to eat as a family, or we had people over. But that was our Sunday dinner, like -- because everybody would be home, my husband; and I would say don't plan anything for Tuesday night. That's our family night, you know? And I feel badly because today my children have to work around the schedule here, so they guard their time-20 off very, very much. So, "Ma, this is my only day off, you know? I'm going to do this; I'm going to spend time with my family." So it's hard even to get together now with them because they're, you know, six children. My son is working hard at his restaurant, my daughter downstairs who works all week long wants her Sundays to herself. In that aspect I'm sorry that we're not an average Italian family. But on the other hand, it's providing us with other things in life. SPEAKER 1: I'm sure you did the right things only because your children are in the business. PHYLLIS: Oh yes, oh yes. We provided a business for four of our children who -- my son also worked here, but then he wanted to have his own restaurant, which I think is wonderful. Now he knows how hard his father worked. You know, when I go to visit him, he'll say, "I can't get everything done. "This has happened, "that, and then one thing or another, and I laugh and I look at him and I say, "Think about your father, what he went through." SPEAKER 1: Your mother saw her father work like that. PHYLLIS: Yeah. SPEAKER 1: You saw your father. PHYLLIS: And she was used to it by the time her husband was in the business; she was used to seeing her father work all those hours. So she didn't -- I never heard her complaining that much about my father having to go into work certain nights, days, holidays, because she was brought up in that. Although I saw it, and I accepted it, I didn't like it. But I accepted it because it was our way of life, you know? But now the restaurant has provided my husband and I with so much opportunity, to travel and to do the things that we couldn't do, to have a social life, to have friends, and you know, we're appreciating that now. SPEAKER 1: Good. Your mother, your grandmother, you? PHYLLIS: Well, my grandmother did. I remember going to visit and staying with her at their home on Fort Pond, I used to love to go there because she would cook my favorite foods, like pancakes from scratch and different kind of 21 pastas, and it was nice being there. And we were right on the pond and I would bring all my friends over, and she'd feed everybody and we'd go swimming. My mother cooked when she lived in her own home, but when she moved above the restaurant, she didn't cook. "You hungry? Go ask your father for something to eat," you know? We didn't have meals together. My daughters all cook, are wonderful cooks. The one that has the store downstairs, out of this world, she's fabulous. But they all cook. And both my sons, even the son that works here, he cooks. So it's all in the food industry throughout the whole family. SPEAKER 1: Now I see… PHYLLIS: Oh yes, the veal parmesan was a specialty. SPEAKER 1: Was that offered every day? PHYLLIS: Yes. You know, as the different owners took leadership of the restaurant, they brought in different foods, you know, different menus. My children today have much more on their menu than we had only for the fact that preparation time, you know, you can only do so much. You can't be making these very fancy dishes to order because we had a small kitchen and you couldn't do that. When they expanded, then they started expanding their menu. I will show you the original menu that's on the wall in the waiting room. SPEAKER 1: Was Friday a big fish day? PHYLLIS: Oh yeah, yes. He also went in and bought his -- I'm sorry, he bought his fish fresh in Boston also, transporting it back and forth. You know, he made sure he'd be there first thing on Thursday to pick up his fish supply, scallop, shrimp, haddock. SPEAKER 1: That leads me to another question. I was wondering if Fridays are still a big fish day. PHYLLIS: Oh yeah, oh yes, yeah. You'd be surprised, especially with today's customers are so health conscious. They'll have fish any time during the week, not only on Friday because it's, you know, it's good for you. So we 22 have a few specialties during the week of fish as well as our fish menu ever, not just on Fridays. SPEAKER 1: Is that different? I'm wondering, do people really primarily fish only on Fridays back then? And now it's more [accepted]? PHYLLIS: I have to think. You know, fish was very inexpensive years ago. Today fish is as expensive as steak, you know, certain types of fish. So I would assume fish could've been on the Italian table more than once a week if they could afford to buy it. You know, there was only one fish market in Leominster at the time, and I still remember my own family having fish more than once a week on Fridays. But I can't speak for others. You know, with the sauce, you can make a marinara -- what do you call it? I need to get -- a certain kind of sauce made with squid. SPEAKER 1: I don't know what it's called. PHYLLIS: I can't think of the name, senior moment. I'll think of it. And that's made with sauce. So Italians would have that with pasta, or they would make, good pasta. Anything -- clam sauce, they would make. And that wasn't just on Friday; that was anytime, you know, that the mother wanted to cook it. SPEAKER 1: Now did you call -- do you just call sauce "sauce"? I mean did you ever call it gravy? PHYLLIS: No. SPEAKER 1: Why is that? PHYLLIS: I don't know. But any Italian that's Italian calls it sauce. Anybody else, if they're not Italian, calls it gravy. When people say I want gravy, if somebody says gravy they bring them out brown gravy. SPEAKER 1: So how have things changed over the years? Let's say the clientele. PHYLLIS: The clientele changes with the times. I remember when I worked I had a lot of yuppies, that they wanted to go out; and no matter what the cost, they wanted good food. And they expected for you to provide that with a smile and excellent service, and then they were yours forever. I remember that in particular, a lot of young people, young professionals…23 SPEAKER 1: What year, about? Oh, they have to come. PHYLLIS: Do they have to come? SPEAKER 2: Yeah they have to -- unless you guys want to go into the lounge. PHYLLIS: Go into the lounge. SPEAKER 1: Sure. PHYLLIS: And then he had a mahogany bar, a 10-foot mahogany bar. But when that 4th generation came in, they decided it would be a business move, a better business move, to increase the size of the other dining room to have large parties come in. So, you know, the little bit of business the bar did there, they decided to take it out. SPEAKER 1: So the 4th generation is your children. PHYLLIS: Yes. SPEAKER 1: And you said the 5th is working too, your grandchildren? PHYLLIS: One of my daughters Darla is waitressing here. Who knows what she wants? It's a start. They all started working here when they were young, all my children. As soon as they were tall enough to wash dishes, they were behind there washing dishes. And then they learned how to make the salads and work the kitchen line. SPEAKER 1: How has the restaurant business changed over the years? Oh, first of all we were talking about the clientele and how you mentioned the people who were coming in. PHYLLIS: Yeah, that I thought were yuppies. SPEAKER 1: Yuppies. And I asked you what year. PHYLLIS: '79 is when we remodeled. SPEAKER 1: Remodeled? PHYLLIS: And enlarged the restaurant. SPEAKER 1: So how have people's expectations changed when they come out to eat? PHYLLIS: I think they're more knowledgeable today. Even then in 1979 people knew what they wanted. They wanted good quality, and they let me know about it. Whereas years and years ago, they just took whatever you put in front of them and were happy. They never would complain. Not that we 24 didn't give them good service or good food, but I note the clientele today are very discriminating, if that's the correct word. They know what they want and you gotta provide it. SPEAKER 1: I noticed the sign when we just walked in here to the lounge is catering, you offer catering now? PHYLLIS: Yeah, they just started doing that. You know, a lot of the restaurants are doing that now. People would come up and -- see, we don't deliver, but people would come up and say, well I want such and such for a group of 30. And we would suggest certain foods, certain sizes; do you want it hot or do you want it oven ready? You know, it's a big help. A lot of people -- you know, more people are eating out. There's two workers in the family all the time and they don't have time to come home and cook. So anything that makes life easier for them, and that's why the store downstairs, she has all prepared foods that people can buy by the pound and go home and heat it up and have a meal. SPEAKER 1: But do you do a take-out? PHYLLIS: Oh yeah. SPEAKER 1: When did that really start, do you think? PHYLLIS: Forever. SPEAKER 1: Forever? PHYLLIS: When my grandfather had it, he was -- I remember having take-out, and the customers that were shut-ins would call a taxi and call here and say, I'd like such and such, and the taxi is picking it up. SPEAKER 1: So you went from only one restaurant, you're the only restaurant in town, so now there's so many. PHYLLIS: Five or six Italian restaurants. And we know the owners very well, because they're all mostly Italians other than the ones that are in Fitchburg. And we're all very friendly with them, you know. SPEAKER 1: Do you try to offer something different than let's say their restaurants offer?25 PHYLLIS: Not really. We go our own way and do our own thing. They're always looking for new menus, new preparation of foods, different foods introduced, you know, all the specialties, that they will try different. LINDA: Hi, I'm Linda. SPEAKER 1: Linda. PHYLLIS: She's interviewing for Fitchburg State College. SPEAKER 1: We're almost done. SPEAKER 2: All right. Did you want to look at that box on my truck so I can leave it here? Because he's worried about these two. PHYLLIS: Nothing but good about you, honey. SPEAKER 1: A different type of menu. PHYLLIS: Menus. People are starting to come in. SPEAKER 1: Let me ask you about your grandfather as far as he was civic-minded. PHYLLIS: Yeah. SPEAKER 1: Okay. PHYLLIS: They would ask him to be their Marshall of their mini-parade, and I remember seeing a picture of my grandfather on a horse leading a parade. SPEAKER 1: Maybe the historical society has that. PHYLLIS: Maybe. I know they have a wonderful film that they just put on video that I was asked to go and see, and my grandfather is in many of the scenes, and my grandmother as well. I could not believe my grandmother was in them. SPEAKER 1: How exciting. PHYLLIS: It was. And the most exciting part for me was the last shot. They had shots of all the children in all the schools, and these Lancaster Street schools, it showed a shot of all the children, and of course they put the nursery school children in the front, there I was. I couldn't believe it. And I knew it was me. I knew it because I said I had a coat just like that. And I go, "Oh my God, that's me." It was so interesting. SPEAKER 1: Now, who produced that?26 PHYLLIS: It's the historical society. They showed it to the public, I had a private viewing, and then they showed it to the public and as soon as they get enough money, they're going to mass produce them to sell to different people. SPEAKER 1: Was this related to Italians or just Leominster in general? PHYLLIS: Leominster in general. It had pictures of the restaurant, scenes of the waitresses serving customers, my grandfather standing there, my grandfather behind the bar with my father and my uncle. They had a shot of the walk-in cooler with the beef hanging. I think it was a promotional film depicting what's in Leominster because certain businesses were depicted also, like Fuller Lumber Company that no longer exists, shots of them; DuPont; people coming out of work. So it looked like a promotional thing. It showed city council and my grandfather was on a lot of committees. So anyway getting back to -- he was a founding father of Saint Anna's Church. He served on many committees, and one of which was the selective service board, otherwise known as the draft board. And I remember hearing how difficult it was for him to draft some of the sons of his closest friends, draft them to go to war. It was very difficult for him. And as I said before, he helped many immigrant Italian families to get established once they arrived in Leominster; and if anyone needed financial help for a business or money to send their son to college, they would always come and ask my grandfather for a loan. And you know, he would help many Italian families become assimilated in the American culture; and as a result he became godfather to many Italian sons and daughters, many, because that was a note of compliment to someone to ask them to be godparent to their child. And as I said, he was a man ahead of his time with his wisdom, his vision, his kindness and generosity. And that's how we'll always remember him. SPEAKER 1: He died when you were in your 30s or so?27 PHYLLIS: No, I was married and had children. He died in 1960. My husband was working at the restaurant. We were living above the restaurant and I had three children. SPEAKER 1: But the point is you really got to know him. PHYLLIS: Oh yes, yes. I'd like to think I was one of his favorites. I wasn't afraid of him. He was a very stern man. He seemed stern to all the grandchildren, but he really was an old softie. And I'd always -- when I was away at school, when I was at private girl's school, and I'd come home, and I'd always want to be with him, or I would like pestering him, you know, and he would make like I was pestering him, but really not, you know? And I used to kid with him, and I used to play with his single strand of hair that he had, that you could curl it, and he'd let me do it, you know? But the others never got close to him because they thought he was so stern, but he wasn't. I'll always remember him. SPEAKER 1: You know, a question comes to mind, because usually I ask people if it was important for them to marry Italian. PHYLLIS: Yes, it was. SPEAKER 1: But in your instance I'm wondering how important it was to marry someone who liked the restaurant business. PHYLLIS: Well, when I first met my husband, that had no bearing whatsoever how I became falling in love with my husband, because his parents also owned a variety store/restaurant in Leominster, and he worked there. So in 1960 after we came back from Italy—because he was in the service—he had a decision to make whether to stay in the service and go to Korea, or get out of the service and either take over his father's business or take over my father's business, and he chose this restaurant. SPEAKER 1: And briefly about the last name Caligaris. You said it's Italian. PHYLLIS: It is. If you're in Italy, it's spelled with a C. In Greece, it's spelled with a K because there's no C in the Greek alphabet and there's no K in the Italian alphabet. And we assumed that it was an intermarriage between 28 some Greeks, you know. The Caligaris originated in the southern part of Italy, but my husband's relatives came from northern Italy; the [Piedmont] area, which is not in Italy. We have Turin and Milano, so you can see they intermarried and then they moved to northern Italy. And his family had vineyards in the province of Asti, where they make Asti Spumante. They used to make barberra wine, red wine. It's interesting going there to see the oxen come up the hill loaded with mounds of grapes. People would handpick the grapes. I remember my mother with the scissors, snipping off the grapes and putting them in the basket. [Unintelligible – 01:06:20] SPEAKER 1: Your grandfather was the founder of Saint Anna's, was he a religious man? PHYLLIS: Yes. He had the -- what do I want to say? The degree, the bishop Evans degree in the Knights of Columbus; it's one of the highest degrees you can get. And he was very active with the Knights of Columbus. Very religious, very generous to the church. SPEAKER 1: What would he think of the business today? Let's say he walked up the stairs like I just did. PHYLLIS: I often think about that, and I would say, if only my grandfather lived, you know, to see his different generations, what they've done to the restaurant and how they've improved on it and how his grandchildren and great grandchildren and great-great grandchild have still maintained ties to the restaurant, that would please him so much. SPEAKER 1: He would be shocked by the way food is prepared now? PHYLLIS: No, because my grandfather, as I said, is before his time. He knows there's always improvements. You have to be better and best yourself, so he would understand this. You know, he wasn't set in his ways. No, he would be very proud, very proud. He would be very proud that the new section still maintained the atmosphere of the old. He would be the happiest to know it was still family that was running the restaurant. SPEAKER 1: One more question, what does it mean to be Italian to you?29 PHYLLIS: We have such a proud heritage. I can't imagine being anything else than Italian. We're a very warm people, loving, family-oriented, giving. We understand the plight and unfortunate incidents of other ethnic people because we were in their place at one time, you know, and I think that helps us to understand the other ethnic backgrounds. I think being Italian has given me a wonderful sense of different types of food, not only Italian food but other foods that we would be willing to try, because it would be different. I'm sure you've heard of the saying Italians live to eat, not eat to live. And that is so true, so true. The first thing someone comes to your house, sit down, "Have this, have that," you know, that's our first thing that comes to mind is food. It's a big part of our life, a part of our heritage. Unfortunately the younger people don't have the time—let's put it that way—to become involved where they can be with fellow Italians like the Italian center down on Lancaster Street where we are members of and we have social gatherings with a lot of other Italians. You know? And it reinforces our heritage. Unfortunately the younger people don't do that. So consequently what's going to happen, the heritage, it's going to lose its meaning, you know? And there's so many intermarriages that it's thinning out, you know? My generation, they really would've liked you to marry someone of your ethnic background, which I did. The generation before mine, it was insisted upon. You marry your own. You know? Like every other ethnic background went the same way. But today's generation, it doesn't make any difference. SPEAKER 1: Did it make a difference with your children's generation? PHYLLIS: No, no. They were the ones that intermarried other backgrounds. I have -- let's see, one child that married a half-Italian, that's the best we could get. She was half-Italian. And all the rest married, you know, French, or Irish, Yankee or whatever. 30 And you know, they adapt to our ways. They learn how to eat the foods that we eat, albeit it was very foreign to them. But now they love it. And I have one French son-in-law and he keeps reminding me, "Oh Ma, remember when you put that on the table for the first time and I didn't know what it was? And now I love it." SPEAKER 1: Now, were the spouses involved with the restaurant? PHYLLIS: At some point as an extra job, you know, bartending, one thing or another, you know? The wife would bartender or waitress. You know, that was just as extra money, not really -- the family really was the mainstay. They managed the restaurant and manned the restaurant. It's best not to have the in-laws on any decision. It has to be family, and they have to get along. They make a big effort. SPEAKER 1: Do they? PHYLLIS: They make a very big effort to get along. They have meetings. If anything happens they discuss it, which is good. You just can't have siblings run a restaurant and they're not happy about it, and it festers and festers, and -- no. That's why it's so out of the ordinary to have a restaurant go five generations. And if Alana is really not in a management end of it, who knows what she wants to do? Taking business administration, so who knows what she wants to do? SPEAKER 1: Are there any restaurants in the state, let's say, that span five generations? PHYLLIS: Not that I know of. SPEAKER 1: That really is amazing. PHYLLIS: What happens with people -- like in the Boston area, I know the Union House is an old restaurant. They claim to be the first restaurant in Massachusetts, and sure, if it's still owned by the same owner. SPEAKER 1: I thought it was sold. PHYLLIS: It could be. SPEAKER 1: I don't know. PHYLLIS: That never entered our mind. SPEAKER 1: Never?31 PHYLLIS: Never. SPEAKER 1: Even now? PHYLLIS: Never. Never entered our mind. SPEAKER 1: What was your hardest experience? PHYLLIS: Working those weekends when my children were home, worrying about them, not being able to be there to go over, you know, what was going on in my house. I found that very difficult. The stress working here -- I loved being—I'm a people person—I loved being with my customers, interacting with them, hearing if they enjoyed it, if they didn't enjoy it, why. But the stress was the cause of a heart attack for me. So after then my children became really involved and said, "Look, you just go up in the office and do a few things, and between the four of us we'll take care of the downstairs." And then eventually after awhile, they could handle everything. So I didn't have to work. SPEAKER 1: So what role do you play now? Do you play any in the restaurant? PHYLLIS: Nope. I come in, see my children on Friday, "Hi, how are you? How are you doing? How is this one doing? What's up?" and this and that, and just to keep in contact, go downstairs and see my two daughters. Once in awhile I'll go into Worcester to see my son and his wife and four children. SPEAKER 1: Do they live in Worcester? PHYLLIS: Yes, yeah, yeah. I'm enjoying life now. My husband and I are really enjoying life and we're reaping the rewards of hard work at the restaurant. And I know someday my children will too. They believe in more -- other management, other family members being managers, thereby giving them more time off to be with their families. They still work the weekends, but not all of them. One will be here. And then they rotate, so they all have time off, which is good. With my husband and I, I had no sisters, and his brother has another profession, so it was kind of all up to us to do it. SPEAKER 1: Please tell me now, your two daughters that work downstairs, that own that -- what's it called?32 PHYLLIS: The [Pasta] Company. My daughter, Sandra [Osborne] and her husband Richard own that. And I'm going to have to take you down there to show you. SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I want to see that. PHYLLIS: And just recently her sister came to work for her, and it's so wonderful. SPEAKER 1: And what's her name? PHYLLIS: Lynn. SPEAKER 1: Lynn? PHYLLIS: It's so wonderful that she's working for her sister just because family is there. When my daughter's not there she knows her sister is, and all will be run right. SPEAKER 1: And now the children up here, what are their names? PHYLLIS: Leslie. SPEAKER 1: Leslie. PHYLLIS: There's Dean. And they all have their own department that they run. Leslie is the -- she assists, manager, bookkeeper. Dean is the out front manager, hiring, firing waitresses, training them. Brian does the bar and hiring the bartenders and the cooks, overseeing the kitchen, at times, cooking himself, dishwashers. You know, it's divided up nicely, but at one point I was doing it all. My husband was doing the bookwork, but I was doing the hiring and firing of everybody, and it was so stressful. SPEAKER 1: And Steven is at Stefano's. PHYLLIS: Yeah. And, you know, his wife helps him. She has her own teaching job, but she helped him on the weekends, and his oldest daughter works on Saturday because it's that busy, as a waitress. And he was telling me that she knows the business already, that she could manage that business. So I can foresee his children going right through his business, which is -- it's good. You know, there's nothing like having family there. SPEAKER 1: That's right. Thank you, is there anything else you'd like to add? PHYLLIS: No, I think I covered my grandfather's life pretty much.33 SPEAKER 1: He sounds like a wonderful man. PHYLLIS: Wasn't he? SPEAKER 1: Remarkable. PHYLLIS: A remarkable person, you know? And my son said to me the other day -- he was interviewed by Maria Populous, she has the "Cooking with Maria." SPEAKER 1: Oh, okay. PHYLLIS: And they did an hour-segment on Stefano's and they interviewed him. At the initial interview, he said how disappointed he was that he never got to meet who all started this, you know? Shot of him cooking and doing his specialty, what he liked, and then his other two chefs. It was great. I was so proud of him. SPEAKER 1: So proud of your past, and it sounds like you're so proud of your future. PHYLLIS: Oh yeah, I've often said I want to be in the know. You know, when you look in the world today, you always have to be thankful for what you have because things could've been -- my parents had a good life, my father and mother, well, they worked hard. They worked very, very hard. SPEAKER 2: I'm putting my [unintelligible - 01:19:40] so don't worry about it. PHYLLIS: Okay dear. My children, they'll have a good life, because they married men who have good businesses, and they'll support them with a good life. So I can rest knowing that all my…/AT/pa/tf/es
Part one of an interview with Frances Mercadante. Topics include: Poem for Dorris Catrell. Becoming the Italian Woman of the Year. Her work as a teacher. Being a woman with a family and a career. How her children were well cared for. How expectations and values changed from generation to generation in her family. Her mother played the organ. How her grandparents met in Boston, were married, and had her mother. How Frances' great uncle, Father Angelo Cappenella, ended up coming to the United States from Italy and was positioned at Saint Anthony's Parish in Fitchburg, MA. Frances' mother moved to Fitchburg to help care for her uncle at the rectory at Saint Anthony's. What life was like for Father Cappenella. Speaking Italian. The Venereen Sisters at Saint Anthony's. The importance of family. The tradition of family meals. How Frances dealt with her son's divorce. ; 1 LINDA: Linda [Rosenwan] for the Center for Italian Culture. It is Wednesday, October 24, 2001. We're with Frances Mercadante at her home at 306 Canton Street in Fitchburg. So she is about to read a poem that I believe she wrote. Did you write this poem? FRANCES: Yes, I did. LINDA: For a friend, Doris Catrell. FRANCES: For a friend, Doris Catrell [Disgene]. Doris, small statured woman, a warm smiling face. Whenever she greets you, it's with a hugging embrace. Impeccably dressed each Sunday as she comes to lead the parish in song with her clear, lilting voice at the 8 o'clock mass. After mass, carrying communion to the ill, she brings them consoling joy and contentment. Then, to the Blessed Sacrament she travels spending an hour with the Lord in the Eucharist. During the week, she's at mass each day, later has coffee for our group to enjoy. Always uplifting whenever we're burdened, encouraging and kind in conversation. At home as a child, I remember her presence, practiced the church services with mom in the choir. Reaching high notes as a soprano with ease, always ready to do her part. Later when Saint Anthony's School was in session, she volunteered to cook, serve, and chat with the children from our school and no one, too. Her workers enjoyed her pleasant manner. She was there when our family and neighbors required special care, assisting her parents in their senior years. Helped Margie, a neighbor, when her health began to fail. And still took care of her own family's needs. She has four loving children, Carla, Michael, Jerome, and Antonia; one special granddaughter, Ashley. Has a strong, loving bond with each of them, and especially enjoys their calls and visits. 2 She has a green thumb that is obvious to see as you approach her cottage with bursts of color from flowers of all kinds profusely growing in her yard. Doris, a woman of faith, family, and friends has left an indelible mark on my life. LINDA: Now, what was the occasion that you wrote this? FRANCES: I wanted it to be part of my Italian cultural evening. And I said it would be nice for me -- well, I had already done Luigi Relley years ago in class, in a creative writing class. I said I was going to look into getting a picture of the two of them and frame the write-ups that I did so parishioners going by, especially the older ones and then some of the families, would recognize the two people and want to read them. And that was the whole purpose. LINDA: So this was read at the awards, too? FRANCES: No. LINDA: No? FRANCES: It was just on a table with all the other material that we had, and people could read it if they wished. LINDA: So explain to us just briefly about becoming Woman of the Year, the Italian-American Woman of the Year. FRANCES: Italian-American Woman of the Year. There is a committee of people that look at individuals and usually see whether or not we have been in the community, active in the community somewhat, and also doing well with our church, our family, an all-encompassing thing. When they look at a person, they want you to be many things. I personally felt that I was more involved with church, family, and career. And I did some outside material with, probably, the ecumenical group. I had been in that for a number of years and enjoyed that. And then, I used the telephone to solicit for the Red Cross and cancer, TB-ers. 3 But I wasn't, supposedly as far as I was concerned, the type of person they should select because I wasn't as outgoing as being in politics or being very active in the elderly communities that they have in the cities and whatnot. I just didn't have the time because of my career. I stayed in quite a number of years until -- let's see, I was going on 69 when I left. And a lot of people leave at 52. So I didn't have the time. I enjoyed teaching, and I hated to give it up. LINDA: So now explain to us about being a teacher. I understand that you were the first. Were you the first married woman? FRANCES: Yes. When I came back to Fitchburg from Windsor, Connecticut, I had my training in Windsor, Connecticut. I went to college in Chicopee [unintelligible – 00:05:35]. And when I looked for a position, my mother, of course, wanted me to stay home in my own hometown. She knew I was going to be engaged and getting married, and she really looked forward to that. And I stayed on, was substituting this for almost six months, and was called maybe three times. And I said, "I'm never going to get any experience doing this." And it was a time when they were not hiring as many teachers. LINDA: And what year was this? FRANCES: This was 1953. And so I decided to use a teacher -- what do you call them? I'm trying to think of a word. Where you would look for a position, they would have the listing of different schools. And Massachusetts had a few. They were in Walpole and quite far from Fitchburg, on the other side of Fitchburg, really, going toward the cape. And then, there was this job that I found in Windsor, Connecticut, and my brother-in-law lived in Connecticut in Plainville, in New Britain. And so I decided to look into the Windsor, Connecticut job, and it started in January. And I was taking care of a fifth grade class and decided to accept the position. And I was very, very happy that I did. I had a Mr. John O'Neal, who was just delightful, as a principal. And the teachers were 4 very, very friendly. And it was a very good start for my career as a teacher. We lived in a home where there was a widow with only teachers boarding there. LINDA: And this was before you were married? FRANCES: Before I was married. So I stayed there for the rest of that year and the following year. And then I returned to Fitchburg and looked for a position here, and I was selected at the E Street School. At that time, the superintendent had just been changed, and we had a Mr. Johnson from New York, from the state of New York, I don't know exactly where. And I told him, I said, "You know, I'm going to be getting married." And at that time, they said, "Well, usually you have to retire. You could sub, but you cannot be a permanent teacher in the classroom." And he said, "No, Fitchburg is laidback." He was very get up and go. And he said, "Things are changing." And he said, "They've already changed in New York. So I don't want you to even worry about getting married and losing your job because I think it's going to change within this year." And I said, "Well, all right." So I just listened to him. And as it was, he was correct. So then, I told him the following year… LINDA: And what year is this? FRANCES: I'm very bad with years, so I think it was '54. And I told him, I said, "I'm having a child." And I said, "I know that's definitely a no-no. I'll have to leave." He said, "Oh, no it isn't." He said, "That is changing, also." And so he said, "You continue, but you get your doctor's permission that you're fine and you're able to do it." So I was the first married woman in Fitchburg and the first pregnant woman in Fitchburg. And I stayed on until that whole, entire June, and I 5 had my baby August 6 th. And everybody was very accepting. I was in a small four-room school with just four classrooms and a Mrs. McKeel, who was delightful. She was [unintelligible – 00:10:19] and knew my family. And I was very well treated, so I had no complexes about it at all. LINDA: So you didn't receive any dissention even from the community? FRANCES: No, no, I didn't. Well, I think because I was inobtrusive or unobtrusive. I did not make waves at all. I just did my job, and I was very low-key. That's the way to put it. LINDA: Now, where was this school? FRANCES: This school was on Lindbergh Street, which is Route 2-A going to Boston, the old Route 2-A. And that's where I started here in Fitchburg. And then I decided to stay out until I had my family. So I was out of teaching for six years. I returned to teaching when my husband decided he was unhappy with private accounting and really would like to start his own public accounting business. In those days, a CPA could not do any advertising at all. And I knew he was worried about the fact that he wouldn't be able to support his own family. So I decided to try to get a position, and we could live on my salary. And in the meantime, I spoke to my youngest sister, who is 10 years younger than I, and she was dating seriously. And I said, "Would you mind instead of working somewhere to take care of my children?" And she agreed. And so I had a wonderful setup if I was able to get the position. I talked to my pediatrician because I was very worried about the children. And he said, "If they're ever very seriously sick, I will take the car and drive right to your house." And so I never forgot Dr. Pick for that. And he gave me a couple of articles to refresh my mind that women have a right to have a career as well as a family. And they can do both very well. And so I did. 6 I was given a position by Miss Lyons. She was the assistant superintendent at the time. And I had a fourth grade at Hastings School. And that's where I started my career in teaching. I stayed there four years, and when Crocker School was built, I was one of the first to go into that new school. And I stayed there until I retired. So I was there for 68 years. LINDA: Sixty-eight? FRANCES: Sixty-eight. I'm sorry, 35 years or 36 years, 35 or 36 years. LINDA: Wow. FRANCES: So I was 68 years in age. That's what I meant to say. LINDA: First of all, your family sounds as if they were very progressive, especially your husband. FRANCES: Mm-hmm. The CPA business, of course, you had to wait for the telephone to ring. You could not advertise. LINDA: Why not? FRANCES: It was against their rules and regulations at that time. And it stayed like that for quite a number of years. And now, of course, they can do anything they want, advertise… LINDA: So how did he begin? Did he just hang a shingle out? FRANCES: He had to put a shingle out. And I don't know if he could even put something. I think he could put an announcement in the newspaper, and that was it, and just by word of mouth. And then there were public accountants and private accountants that knew him and liked him and offered to give him one of their jobs, and that helped him to get started. And then he get to know more people. And through word of mouth, really, it was developed. LINDA: And he continues today? FRANCES: Yes, he continues today. And he has his youngest son. And it's a thriving office. Instead of being a one-man band, he has three or four CPAs now there, I think, working in the office. LINDA: And what's the name of the business? 7 FRANCES: It's Mercadante & Mercadante. And then, my daughter-in-law took a payroll business that he had only eight people and made it into, I think, 70 clients now that do the payroll with her. LINDA: And what is that business called, or is that under Mercadante? FRANCES: No, it's her own payroll business. I honestly don't know the actual name of it, but Nick will be able to tell me. LINDA: So were the hardships worth it at the beginning? FRANCES: It was. I still had guilt complex about leaving the children. I came home at three; and in the first years, I did not take any courses. I just took the courses that were given at the school after school hours. And my sister would stay an extra hour, an hour and a half. And then I would come home, and I would just spend my time with the children and then cooking a full meal, and I would have my sister stay with me and have a full meal with her husband. And then eventually, she was married the second year and had a little girl. And I would babysit her little girl—I had a crib for her—so that she could go out and enjoy herself on occasion with her husband. And it worked out very, very well. LINDA: So she must have lived nearby. FRANCES: She lived nearby, yes. And then, when she expected her second child, then my mother talked to me about a Mrs. [Grassi], who was her very dear friend who was 65 years old. And Mrs. Rose Grassi was just unbelievable. She accepted the position here. She lived only five houses down the street from me in this… LINDA: Are we talking about this address? FRANCES: Yes, this address, right on Canton Street. And she enjoyed every single bit being another grandmother. We called her the third grandmother in the family. She was so loving and caring to the children. I would have to hide housework from her so that she wouldn't get worn out because she would always put her whole effort into caring for the needs of the children 8 first, and then worrying about the little things in the house that she thought I wouldn't have time for. She was just so special. And Fridays were a special day for the children. There was always a special goodie because it was the end of the school week and she wanted to have a special treat for them, might have been apple muffins or cookies. She made oatmeal cookies. She did so many things that were special. And to this day -- well, I'm thinking back college days. They would come home, and I never had to tell them to go and visit their grandparents, but they also would never forget her. They would go down and see her husband, Joseph, and Rose. LINDA: And now, these are other Italians, too? FRANCES: They're Italian. And, of course, both of them are deceased. But when Ann Marie got married, she went to the nursing home with her bridal gown on and her husband and had a picture taken. And she has that picture at our house. And whenever we have family gatherings, we talk about her remarks and how she used to cater to Anthony being the youngest child. And she'd say, "Oh, my goodness, your wife is so strict with that little [peachy mean]." Peachy mean is the little one. She doesn't realize he's still little; he shouldn't have the same choice that the other children have. And so we would talk about that. And so then, she would tell that to my husband. She didn't want to hurt my feelings, and so she was hoping that he would tell me to cool it with that youngest son of mine. But, oh, she was just a special, special person. To this day, I miss her whenever I go by her house. LINDA: Now, do you think that you would have continued with your teaching probably if you didn't have your sister and someone like Mrs. Grassi? 9 FRANCES: I think it would have been very difficult for me because I was a very -- they say cancereans are, but I'm very family-oriented, and I worry about the children and not being there if they really needed me. I was very fortunate that the family stayed very healthy in those teaching years. And so when I did have to take time off, it was very few and far between, so I wasn't hurting my teaching career by having a lot of substitutes in and out covering my class. I didn't want to do that because I felt that was my responsibility to my school. LINDA: You're of the generation that really invited people into your home to take care of children. How do you feel about outside daycare now with all the daycare centers sprouting up? FRANCES: I think I would peruse them very carefully. And it wouldn't be just one visit; it'd be several visits to make certain that you walk in there unannounced on certain days just to see what happens when they do have a child that's having a bad day and how they're caring for the child. And that would be my feeling. Then I think you could rest assured. I know we had a girl here on our street—and I know her mother very well —was [unintelligible - 00:21:12] daughter, Nana. And she has done a beautiful job. She takes care of 6 months old right to toddler age. And she has a lot of patience, but she only has maybe five or six children that age, so she can give them a lot of undivided attention. And she has her house set up for it. LINDA: What do you think are the most important attributes to taking care of children? FRANCES: I think loving them and making them feel secure is so important, because you are really taking the place of parents. And they feel very left out, that initial shock. Even when they are starting elementary school, we have a lot of problems with the first time they go to kindergarten or the first time they go to first grade, whatever it might be. That separation is very difficult for children. It's very difficult for parents. And so I think if you 10 have a warm, loving person that gives them the security that they're not going to be invasive and not take mommy and daddy's place, but be there for them, is very important. LINDA: What did you do to make sure that your children still felt important in your life? FRANCES: Oh, I would say, when I came home -- first of all, I always told them if there was anything majorly wrong and they felt they needed me, that they could call dad's office, and either Dad or I would pick them up at school so they would not be left thinking that no one would take care of them if they had something really seriously bothering them or if they were seriously hurt, you know, physical harm. And then when I came home, it was always a special treat. And that treat was to get together, and snack time was talking time. But even though I was talked out teaching, I made sure that I spent at least a half hour talking about the different things that may have happened. Some of them were very talkative and outgoing, and the others were very withdrawn. And so I had to reach them by just questioning very gently and not pushing the issue. And eventually, they started to tell me. If there was something on their mind, it would come out. But it was just during snack time before we started homework. And I would do that. And it worked out. I don't know, I think our parents that had to work in my generation had it easier because we all had the same rules and regulations in every household. So when they were playing with their friends, they heard the same rules. And they didn't feel that they were being slaughtered and overruled by very strict parents that had to work. They didn't feel that it was a difficulty. They just took it upon themselves, "Well, mom has to work because dad is starting a business." And then, of course, I could have left teaching. And 11 they were in the middle grades at that time. And I said, "If you don't mind, mommy would like to --" I'm always with Nana because I'm with the grandchildren now. I said, "Mommy would like to stay on stay on teaching. But if it becomes a problem," and I said, "we'll talk about it." And I stayed on because I wanted them all to get a good education, and I had them very close in years. They were 20 months apart, and the last two were 16 months apart. And so I knew that when the education started and paying the college bills, it was going to be very difficult. And our parents were good-hearted people, but they didn't have any kind of money to help us out. It was going to be our problem. LINDA: How did your mother feel about you working? FRANCES: She didn't mind it at all. Of course, she was an organist for so many years. But of course, that was part of her life because she started playing the organ when she was in her teens for the church. And she did it free of charge. And then I think probably when she was 30 or 40, they started to give her a dollar for playing the mass. And she had to take a cab down to the church there with the dollar. LINDA: So in a way, she was out of the house anyway. FRANCES: She was out early in the morning and then back at home all day. So if we got sick, Mother was there at the house. And the only time she was out of the house was Saturday mornings, and Dad was usually there or she would have a babysitter, or my grandparents were there. So there was always somebody reliable there. And then Sunday masses, she would play one or two. And we would be at one. And then Dad probably took us home. And it was never a problem. LINDA: Now, can you speak a little bit about the different generations? For example, what your parents expected and then what you expect and what your children expect. FRANCES: Well, I think that they wanted us to be kind to one another. Family was very important to them. And they enjoyed having the relatives come to 12 visit and putting a huge spread on at different times. We had my grandmother's people from Roxbury that would come up. And oh, they were such fun times. I remember my grandmother's brother, Uncle Rocco, and -- oh, maybe Great Uncle Rocco. And he was full of fun and had a beautiful singing voice, and they would get at the piano and my mother would play the Italian tunes. And then, of course, there'd be always a delicious meal to eat, and dessert. And then they would head back to Boston to Roxbury. And with my mother's sisters, I think we were the only ones that had a car. And then, we would take turns taking one family to the beach with us. And sometimes, my mom would leave us at the convent with the sisters if we couldn't fit everyone, and we would spend the afternoon with the nuns. And we enjoyed that. Now, in this day and age, they would think that was horrible. But they played games with us. Oh, we had a wonderful time. And there was goodies there. And then, Mom would pick us up probably six or seven o'clock. But it took much longer to get to Boston or to the beach because we had the old Route 2, and you had only two lanes. And it was a two-hour, almost, I think, trek to get to Boston. And so, family get-togethers were very, very important. And I think we all remember them as happy times. In our own individual families, we always had birthday parties. We did not get 10 or 15 presents. We got one present. And so the material things were a minimum. We got school clothes when we started school. And then when the change of the season came, we got warmer school clothes. And Mom and Dad very rarely bought new things for themselves. 13 We all dressed on Sundays. They were Sunday outfits. I remember that clearly. You would never wear dungarees to church. When my youngest sister was 10, and -- I was 10, and she was maybe just starting out, when she get to be 10 years old, that's when the dungarees started. But girls usually wore shorts in the summer with the skirt over. And it was a different era completely. And we didn't mind it. I don't remember anyone complaining. LINDA: So do you remember rejecting any of your parents' values? FRANCES: No. We went along with it. And sometimes, we'd be stubborn and bark at something, "Well, why can't I have a little more time doing such and such?" whether it be a game or whatever. And she'd say, "Well, it's time to hit our homework," or get busy for the things at hand, whatever it might be. And I think that's about the only thing I remember. And if we were arguing with our sister over some stupid thing, it might be, "Well, did you take my sweater out of my drawer? I didn't find it in my drawer, and you must have worn it. And now, it's in the wash. And you didn't ask my permission to do it." And I had my grandchildren two weeks ago, and the same thing happened. Olivia came in and she had on a sport shirt that belonged to her sister, Tanya. And I said, "What are you doing?" And she said, "Well, Tanya was ready to start an argument." And I said, "You know," I said, "when Aunt Theresa and I were growing up," I said, "she used to take something she loved to wear and wouldn't even ask me. And then, she'd put her jacket on and start walking down the street. And she'd say, 'Well, I'll wait for you at the corner.'" 14 And I said, "I never thought to look inside the jacket. But when she came home…" And so the two girls started to laugh. And I said, "You see, that doesn't change in families." Then I said, "It would be nicer if you asked permission, because there are some things that should be favorites and that should be left alone and then other things that you could share." And so that's the way my mother brought us up. In the very same way, she talked to us about that and she said, "Sharing is wonderful, and we should learn to do that. But there are some special things that you want to be yours, and that's okay." So I thought that was a good way of teaching my grandchildren, remembering their mother's words. LINDA: Now, your children have they taken many of your values and the way that you brought up your children? FRANCES: Yes, I would say so. Now, they have, of course, in-laws that are not of our same background. But still, in all, they have been following the same ideas. They're very loving girls. I have two daughter-in-laws, and so that makes a big difference. And then, we've had a lot of family get-togethers where they take turns. And I feel really wanted and so does the rest of the family. And I think that's half the battle, really. LINDA: Now, do you have two daughters and two sons? FRANCES: I have one daughter and three sons. Now, my oldest son has since been divorced. Now, I don't know how many years it is now. But they have joint custody, and I am very friendly with my ex-daughter-in-law to this day. And so when Christmas comes, I always remember her. And when I had my special affair, Italian Woman of the Year, she sent me a beautiful bouquet of flowers and a beautiful card with lovely notes from herself and the three girls. LINDA: Now, what is the son's name? FRANCES: Nicholas, Dr. Nick, yeah. LINDA: And what is her name? 15 FRANCES: Her name is Jayne. And she still goes by Mercadante. J-A-Y-N-E, she spells her name. LINDA: Now, is he remarried? FRANCES: He has not remarried. No, he's dating someone spasmodically. And he feels that his responsibility right now is his three girls. LINDA: And what about your other sons? FRANCES: And my youngest son is married to Deborah. And she… LINDA: And what is his name? FRANCES: Anthony. LINDA: Oh, okay, this is your youngest. FRANCES: Yes. And sometimes we call him Tony. And Dominic is unmarried, and he's up in Belfast, Maine, and he's certified architect. LINDA: And he's unmarried. FRANCES: Mm-hmm. Then I have my daughter in Harvard, and she's married to Roy Castor, and they have two beautiful daughters. I have all their pictures on the piano so I could look at them. LINDA: And what's her name? FRANCES: Ann Marie. And it's A-N-N and then M-A-R-I-E. LINDA: Ann, okay. Thank you. FRANCES: And she's a nurse midwife. She became a nurse midwife. And he is a small-town lawyer. LINDA: Interesting. Now, you talked about your mother playing the organ. FRANCES: Yes. LINDA: And I know that you're an organist, also. FRANCES: When she became elderly, she wanted me to continue, so I worked with her at the organ and played some of the masses when she was unable to. And then she finally retired, I think after 60 years of playing. But she started at, I think, age 12. So did I, just playing benedictions. So when people read my write-up for Italian Woman of the Year, 55 years of playing, or 50 years, it was really taking those years that I had played 16 occasionally, just benedictions. But I really played maybe 30 years, 40 years. LINDA: Now, did your mother play… FRANCES: She played funerals, weddings, yeah. LINDA: How did she learn? FRANCES: She learned from the sisters. I think it was the sisters that were at Saint Joseph's Church in Fitchburg. And I think they were the Sisters of Notre Dame. But they were a French order of nuns, and she learned from one of the sisters that taught piano and then taught organ. LINDA: And how did you learn? FRANCES: I took from the Mr. Williams here in Fitchburg. And then when I went to college, I took from Sister Lawrence Newey. So I had some training from two professional people. And so did she. LINDA: Does the tradition continue with your children? FRANCES: No. Well, Tanya is a very good player, piano player, and doing well with it. And then, Sophia, my 10-year-old, is playing. And my 9-year-old is playing the piano. She's starting with the Suzuki, Allesandra, my daughter Ann Marie's youngest daughter. And then, Antonia, her oldest daughter, is learning the flute, and has played the flute. And Olivia, who is the second one in my son's house, is learning the clarinet. And she's now starting with the saxophone. And I think we're going to start Nicholas—he's going to be 7 this month—probably with the piano because he seems to like it. He goes there and he doesn't pound on it like most children do. So we think that there's an interest there. LINDA: But your children don't play? FRANCES: No. Tony had lessons and Ann Marie did. And they gave it up in, I'd say, the upper grade school years. No interest. LINDA: So now tell me -- I guess we should get -- first of all, I feel like we're really rushing and we are because we only have about an hour and there's 17 a lot to cover, but I know that you have a very strong connection with Saint Anthony's. FRANCES: Yes, I do. LINDA: And there's a reason for that, and I'd like you to explain that. FRANCES: Well, first of all, my mother was born in the North End in Boston, and she came from a mother and father that came directly from Italy to the North End in Boston. Her mother came at age 15 to live with Aunt and start her life there. My grandfather was already there, and he was 10 years older than my grandmother. And they lived in the same apartment dwelling, many floors. I think probably there's six to eight floors in those apartment buildings. And he got to know her by seeing her scrubbing the floors, that they were very immaculate. And they get to talking. And he married her. And she was just, I would say, 16 when she got married. And she had my mother at age 17. And my mother was so small that she was three pounds. In those days, they did not have the hospital care that we have. And they used to open up the oven door and have it on a very low heat, and they would put the bassinet close to the oven door to make sure that the baby stayed warm enough, plus the blankets and whatnot. But they really worried about a three-pounder. And today, of course, there would be a facility for that. And my mother grew up very healthy and always had a weight problem, which is unusual for being so tiny as a baby. But she had a very healthy life. Now, when my grandfather had spent maybe several years or more in Boston, he became very unhappy and missed Italy tremendously. So one summer, he said he wanted my grandmother to take a trip back with the 18 three older children and see whether or not she would like to go there to live, because he was not too happy with… LINDA: Now, this is your mother's parent? FRANCES: My mother's parent. This is her father. So they decided to go back, and they did take the boat from Boston, and they went to Italy. And, of course, I think in those days, it must have taken almost three months to get there, or two months anyway. And when they arrived, it was summertime there, and for some unknown reason, my grandmother became ill there. We don't know if it was a change in the water, the kind of food, but they ate the same more or less diet. So we just don't know, but she became quite ill, and they had to come back by boat. And because she was so ill, my uncle was -- my great uncle, Father Angelo Cappenella, was a seminarian professor in Naples. And so he asked the bishop for permission to escort them back to the United States, and the bishop gave him permission. And so he came with the three children and his sister-in-law back to the states, and my grandfather just acquiesced and decided he had to learn to love this country as his own. But I'm sure it was just leaving his family. I think he was a very, very quiet man and very bonded to family. And you had people in the North End, but they weren't your family. They were acquaintances. And then after a while, he was comfortable. So then what happened is my uncle was situated in [Hayville] in the Boston Diocese. And Father Maseo, who grew up with him in the same town in Italy, told him that he had to go to the Springfield Diocese, and they wanted him to work in his diocese. And so eventually he was given the Fitchburg place where Father [Rossomano] -- and going to look here and see. This was in 1907. Our father, Reverend Pasquale Russuomo, an Italian missionary began founding the Saint Anthony Parish with 200 determined Italian 19 Americans. The springtime of 1908, April 26 brought the dedication and consecration of the new church building. And under Father Rossomano, returned to Italy in the fall of that year. Monsignor Angelo Cappenella assumed the pastorate duties for the young parish. He was only Father Cappenella at that time. And so that's where he was assigned. And then going on from there, do you want me to tell the history of the church? LINDA: No. FRANCES: All right. We'll stop there. LINDA: What I'd really like you to do is -- we may have time for that, but really tell me how your mother then got involved with Saint Anthony's Parish. FRANCES: Okay. My grandfather, knowing the custom in Italy, which was if you had a parish priest in the family, the family members would take care of the rectory in his name, help with the altar, and serving in every capacity until they had sisters to help out or nuns to help out. So he talked to his wife, and he said, "We're going to have to send at least two children there. I don't want him to be alone." And so my grandmother went right along with it. And she said, "What I'll do is take the train back and forth. I'll stay two days with them, make the food ahead of time, teach them how to do certain things, and then I'll come back and spend four days here." And so Aunt Anna became the second mother in command in the North End. And that was my mother's second oldest sister, and she helped my grandfather. And so they came to Fitchburg, and… LINDA: Tell me what their names were. FRANCES: Mary and Michael. And they were both Cappenella. Now when he came, he realized that to have these children have a normal life, they really should get back to their families. But the only one who eventually did go back to his family was my Uncle Mike. My mother, staying here as long as she did, had a niche here, and she made friends, and she didn't want to 20 leave my uncle. And my grandmother used to come often enough. And then the grandparents, and my grandfather and the family, would come on Sundays every once in a while. And they would have family dinners together. So she, more or less, I think accepted being here in Fitchburg with her grand uncle, her uncle, my grand uncle. LINDA: When did she start? FRANCES: She was 12 years old, which is a very young age. But when you look at age in those days, my grandmother was 16 when she was married. They had a maturity that we don't have in our own generation, let alone our children. They are really children at that age. They can't make serious decisions, yet these children seemed to be able to. They had a maturity about them that was inhuman. LINDA: Now, where did she go to school? FRANCES: She went to St. Bernard's Elementary. And I think she only went up to the sixth grade. LINDA: And tell me what she did at the rectory. FRANCES: At the rectory, she worked at the church washing linens, setting up the altar, doing all the things that the sisters did in later years, getting the music ready for the different functions and the masses. And then in the rectory, she had to clean it as a house, all the chores you have in a regular home: cooking, cleaning. She did some sewing, ironing, all of that. And then, of course, he was very helpful. He was an uncle who did not just sit. He would help her with the dishes and help her with the cleaning and whatnot because he felt it was a sacrifice for those two children to be away from their parents. And he appreciated the fact that they were there. LINDA: So this is about the time she must have learned how to play the organ? FRANCES: Yes. She started taking lessons, I would say, early on, maybe 14. I would say about that age, probably. 21 LINDA: And did she look to the nuns as mother figures, do you think? FRANCES: I think that she just relied on her own mother when she came here. She was very, very secure. I think my uncle priest had a kind way about him. So he was sort of second father in command, and they related to him very well. He was not an abusive person. He held his temper. I think later on in the parish, we heard that he would lose his temper at times because that parish was built up on pennies. People did not have a lot of money, and it was very difficult for them to get into the habit of giving to the church, because in Italy the churches were paid by the government, a very different thing. And so when they came here, they couldn't understand why they had to support parish. That was a very difficult thing. LINDA: Did parishioners have to purchase a pew, let's say? FRANCES: I don't remember that much. But if the church was being redone, they would want a family name. So I know the windows would have a family name on them. I think some of the pews did have years back, but I don't know because they've been changed several times. And different statues were given in honor of a beloved person that died in their family. And so that was done. LINDA: So tell me a little bit about Father Cappenella, well, uncle to you. FRANCES: When I was growing up and my mom and dad were married, we lived three houses away from the rectory. The parish owned a three-tenement house that gave them money from the rent they collected to support the things they needed to have in that parish. At first, he had no nuns, and so the Irish teachers were wonderful to him. He had four or five of them. Alice Lyon was one. Mary Courtney and her sister were two more. Alice Keeney was another. And I don't know what he would have done without those Irish teachers volunteering to teach Christian doctrine and helping out with the linens, too, and helping my 22 mother out. So they were just wonderful to my uncle priest, and he always appreciated it. And eventually… LINDA: So were they just volunteering their time? FRANCES: Volunteering. Absolutely, after teaching, volunteering. LINDA: And now, where were they from? FRANCES: They were from St. Bernard's Church. Our mother church was St. Bernard's on Water Street. LINDA: Now, they must have needed the permission from [unintelligible 00:52:37]. FRANCES: Yes. And I'm sure that he gave them permission. And so that was a wonderful tribute to that pastor in caring for a mission church that was just starting out for those people who came from Italy and did not know the English language quite yet. And so he would start his mass in Italian at first. And then as time went on, it was just one mass in Italian and all the other masses were in English, because most of the Italians had that feeling of wanting to be accepted in this country, and they wanted this adopted country to love them the way they loved their natural home in Italy. And so they thought learning the language was an asset to them. And so a lot of us who had mothers and fathers who could speak fluent Italian did not have that training of hearing the language because they would just talk to the children in English, whether it was broken English or not. And they would speak only to the grandparent in Italian. Now, very many of the families did that, but there were still some families that talked Italian only at home. But that's the way we were brought up. And there were many families like ourselves where they just spoke English all the time. LINDA: Looking back on that, do you think it was important for assimilation reasons? FRANCES: When I think of the problem we're having with the Spanish people, I think that maybe it did help. And I taught in a school where the people came 23 from Finland and brought their children to school. And they spoke fluent Finnish at home. But when those children came to school, they learned the English language. And they did not put up any hesitation about the fact. They felt that this was their adopted country, and that when they got home, they would speak the fluent Finnish with them. But they were also going to learn the English from their children. And the attitude is very different. Now, I don't know about the Canadian French, because, of course, they can come from the country of France, they came from Canada. And I think it was very similar because they kept their language, but they also learned English. LINDA: But on the other hand, the Italians really didn't keep their language, did they? FRANCES: No, we didn't. I would say there are very few families who did. That's my own personal opinion. But I know Doris's family spoke fluent Italian. And there's still some that were doing it, but it wasn't the majority. I think it was difficult for them to go into the workplace not knowing more English. And I think that's where the change occurred. They wanted to do well in where they worked to be able to support their families. So that was a definite must. We have to be accepted. We have to do our part. And secondly, the Italian language, even though they loved it, had to take a backseat. That's my personal opinion. LINDA: Did you ever feel it important to teach your children Italian? FRANCES: I was hoping that they would pick it up in school because I sent them to a parochial school, but none of them did, because it was just in class. And then they never attempted to try to talk except in class. LINDA: And you don't speak Italian? FRANCES: No, I never do, no. And that's why I'm taking beginning Italian right now. 24 LINDA: Did you speak Italian when you entered school? FRANCES: No. No. English. LINDA: So your parents spoke to you in English? FRANCES: Always in English. LINDA: Well, that's because it was really their parents who came over. FRANCES: Yes. LINDA: We're going out of time. FRANCES: All right. Well, do you want to continue, and I'll just skip that meeting? LINDA: Oh, I don't want you to do that. I can always come back. FRANCES: Oh, sure. LINDA: I can come back at a later date. FRANCES: But if this is a convenient day for you, why don't we just try to get quite a bit of it done? LINDA: Okay. FRANCES: I think we should do that. LINDA: Okay. So again, I'd like to go back to Father Cappenella to get some maybe personal stories, anything that you can share that probably the average person may not know. FRANCES: Well, he was a very giving person, and he felt even though he had the help of those Irish teachers, he needed to get sisters here to bond the parish together more so. And he felt that with the nuns, they could teach Italian. They could teach embroidery, have a pre-school. And all of these things would help the new families coming directly from Italy. And it would nurture his parish, too. So he moved out of the rectory—that was part of the church in those days. There was sort of like a little L, and there was about three floors. And when I first went to the convent, that's where we would stay, so I got to know it very well. And he decided to move to Salem Street and then to the house, the [Ritchie] house. And he stayed there until a new rectory could be built. And so he did that. 25 And when he had those sisters, then they took over the pre-school and started [Sagalopi's]. LINDA: Now, who were the sisters? FRANCES: These were the [Venereen] Sisters. And, let's see, I think that is mentioned here. They came in 1919. Four sisters of a congregation of [unintelligible - 00:59:29] Venereen Sisters arrived from Italy to teach in the day nursery, to conduct classes in religious education, and to assist the pastor in caring for the needs of our expanding community. And it says, at that time the sisters lived in the -- well, was really part of the church. It was really the rectory, the initial rectory on the church. LINDA: So Father Cappenella was really instrumental in bringing [unintelligible - 01:00:03] here? FRANCES: Yes, he was. Absolutely. Yes. And that was a very close time, especially the first nuns that came. Oh, he was very fond of them and couldn't do enough. In hot weather, I can remember the years when he was able to afford a car and he would take us to Quentin when he had to confess the sisters and the presentation at their convent. They always sent a different priest so the nuns would feel comfortable confessing their sins. And he would take us for a ride and buy ice cream for us. And then when we got back to Fitchburg, he would say, "Now, I'm thinking all our nuns with all those robes on," and he said, "this hot weather," he said, "we have to stop at a store and I have to buy them a box of ice cream." In those days when you went to an ice cream place on the road, they just had the cones. They didn't sell it by the bulk as they do today, so we had to stop elsewhere and get them their ice cream. And I always remember that. And there were things that -- he always wanted to make sure they had enough heat in the wintertime, and then if he got too much from someone's garden -- but most of the time, people would take some, I 26 should say, to the convent. But if they forgot and he had over an abundance, he would always bring extra food down there or give them special treats that they couldn't afford. And he just felt that they were really the heart and soul of our parish. And I feel that that's why we grew so well through the years from one generation after another. It was those initial Venereen Sisters who really, not only gave us stronger faith, but the family life being so important, they instilled it in us in the way they treated us and the way they talk to us. And I think that helped all those good families, and it helped my mother's generation, the first families, and then my generation. And when I get together with people that are in their 60s and 70s, they still remember, and someone their age still remember those first nuns with joy and with special feeling. We just can't help it. They're part of our life, our parish life. And we have such a warm feeling about them. LINDA: So tell me more of what they did for the community. I know that they preached a stronger faith and a strong family. FRANCES: Yes. LINDA: But how did they lead by example? FRANCES: Well, they were very instructive with the children. So they had classes in Christian doctrine. And through their example, of course, they taught us plenty. But they were actually teaching us Christian doctrine, and not only that, the classes in pre-school, bonding with us in things of everyday life, not just faith, just not religion, but games, playing games with them. I can remember one little Italian game that I'm teaching my grandchildren. We had to, in pre-school, make believe we were butterflies. And we would flip our hands and walk and just hop around in a circle. And then she would teach us—and this was Sister Michaelena—and she would teach us sofaleena bella bianca vola bola nuncy stunka, which means 27 butterfly, butterfly beautiful and white, always flapping their wings and flying and never getting tired. And fly here vola coo a volala, fly there never, never getting tired. And so that little nursery rhyme was the little game of running around in a circle with our hands flapping up and down. Those brought a lot of happy memories back. As a child, a very young child, I can remember that. And a lot of my fellow friends my age remember those things. Now, we also remember that when we were at mass, we had to tow them up. There was no talking, and we had to pay attention. And in those days, it was difficult because it was in Latin. And you know how bored our children are with just going to church, let alone sitting there for an hour listening to Latin. And there wasn't the -- well, people participation the way we have it today. And so, it's a big difference in the worship of the mass today in this generation and when we were little. And I think it's much for the better. But we still honored our parents and our grandparents and our sisters with good behavior. If we were an itchy type child, we just wiggled in our seats, but we stayed where we were supposed to. I think it was definitely a deep respect and care and love for the teacher as well as our parents that made us do that. That's the only thing I can think of because I brought up four children, and my oldest one was a very big itch and is very active compared to the other three. And I would have to tell him several times whereas the others I never had to tell them. But we have all different personalities. And I'm sure there were some of us in that generation that were very antsy and wanted to move about. But because of the respect we had and the love for our parents and our priest and our nuns, we held back. We held back enough [gap and go]. I don't 28 know what you would say, but tolerance. Yet it was more than tolerance, was caring. LINDA: I get the impression that maybe you don't think there is enough caring and respect today. FRANCES: I think that the parents are too involved with making too much money and huge houses, and the sense of giving has gone to extremes. And I think the nurturing and the loving, we're so tired because I think in this day and age to do the shopping and take care of a family, have a part-time job, if not a full-time job for both mother and dad, is overwhelming. And the children are in so many organizations today. You're in the band, as I am, picking them up from soccer, field hockey, then it's instruments that they're taking up, dance. And we're spreading ourselves too thin in the meat and potatoes. The most important thing is family life and spending some time with our families. And there are some families today that don't even have one meal together. Now, that was something I insisted on when my boys were in high school and they were into different sports. I didn't care if the last one came in at 7:00 p.m. at night. We ate at 7:00 p.m. But I wanted us to eat as a family. So they could have snacks to hold them over, but I wanted us as a family to have a meal together. And very rarely, we had a conflict where we just couldn't do it. I tried to make that a rule, not just Sundays. And Saturdays were fun days for us. We had really leisurely breakfast in the morning, and we took turns making it, and we invite my milkman in. And I can remember how amused he was when Tony was making breakfast and he was in the third or fourth grade doing it. 29 But I think we have to go back to doing that. We've got to cut back on some of the stuff that's not needed. And too much material things, we don't need, too. LINDA: So whereas you worked really to support your family it was important. FRANCES: That's right, we did. LINDA: Your feeling is perhaps some of these people don't need to work as hard or even work at all if they're only buying more. FRANCES: Yeah. LINDA: Is that it? FRANCES: That's it. But, of course, today the thing has changed. Education is far more expensive than it was when we were bringing our children up. And so now, if you wanted them to go to a school—and even your state schools have gone up in the price of education—you're going to, if you have your children close in age, go out and have an extra pay coming in just for the education. It's that difficult today to educate your children. LINDA: Getting back to sharing a meal, do you feel that was part of your Italian heritage? FRANCES: Yes, I think that my mother made that very distinct because my grandmother did, too, before her. It was always -- she wanted us at least once a month to go to Boston and be with the rest of the family. And if she couldn't have everybody at the meal, we had to come for cake and coffee, those who lived in that grid, to join us so that we were all together. She wanted everyone there. And my mother was the same way. And when my mother was unable to do it physically, we would take turns and do it for her and take turns at our homes so that she would have that feeling at least once a month of all the children. LINDA: Do you continue that tradition? FRANCES: I certainly do. What we do is birthdays are very prominent. And we try to limit the number of birthday get-togethers. So we take the month of October and group them together. Now, Poppa G has a birthday in October, October 4th. And CeeCee, our youngest granddaughter, is 30 October 17. So when the family gets together, we try and get a Sunday where everyone can be together, or Saturday, and we have a cake for each one, a little cake for each one. We have plenty of ice cream. And we make the meal together. And they really enjoy it. And the cousins get to know one another more. And they learn to adjust to the temperaments, too, because sometimes one of them is off kilter on that day and wanting their own way, and they have to learn to bend like they do with their own siblings in their own home. And so I think it's a good lesson for them, and it sort of bonds the family. LINDA: Just talking to you for this short while, I feel that you don't mind bending. FRANCES: No, not at all. No. That's so important. And I try to adjust because I know I'm dealing with daughter-in-laws that come from a different background, who probably never had this. And it's too much togetherness in my family. And so I try to take the median of let's join the birthdays together. And then now with the family getting too big, at Christmastime we've started picking names because they were opening up too many presents. And I didn't like it, and neither did some of the parents. And so we started the limitation. Now the children know they're only going to get two names, two presents, one from their family and one -- I'm trying to think how they do it. It's just been recent that we've been doing that, those past two years. I know we do it at Thanksgiving time. We put names in a hat or a bowl, and usually it's a bowl. Oh, I know what it is. I'm thinking of every parent picks one for their child and so that everybody has one name. And so everybody gets at least one present. Now, we were doing the godchildren, but then we decided no, we're going to do it at birthday time. And so it has cut down the pressure of Christmas tremendously. And now 31 we can really enjoy Christmas and work on food and what we make, the specialties of food. And it's just the one gift. And I think it ends up with two gifts that they get. And I've forgotten how we do it. I have to ask my daughter again. LINDA: Is that the same for you and your husband? You just have it for one? FRANCES: Oh, yes, yes. And for their birthdays, the grandparents always remember every child, because that's the way we want it. LINDA: Now, again, you sound very patient. Has your patience ever been tried? FRANCES: Oh, yes, many times, because sometimes they don't want to have it on a certain day. And I will wait, and sometimes the month goes by. And I will say, "Well, I'm missing having our get-together." And I just wait it out, and it comes to fruition. LINDA: So not just about the birthdates, but just life decisions. FRANCES: Oh, yes, definitely. We have to bend. I have to realize if they're coming from a different culture, a different mom and dad than I had, and if I can't be bending how can my children be bending with their wives or husbands? And that isn't a good example. And then it's not definitely a good example to the grandchildren. And so there are going to be changes and difference of opinion because we're all different. We all don't vote Democratic or Republican. And so we've made a rule, but we're not supposed to talk politics. And things are going to irritate for no reason. They have nothing to do with our family life, and they're not going to infringe on our family feelings by any means. It's not going to change it. And so we drop those things. LINDA: And how is a woman like yourself, who is so strong with her faith and Italian, accept your son getting a divorce? FRANCES: It was very difficult for me. But he didn't want the divorce. She wanted the divorce. And irregardless of it, you have to go along with -- if their marriage -- I definitely talked to them about going to counseling, and they did. And after that, I said, "You have to really think about the children 32 and what's going to happen and make your decisions caring about the children because," I said, "they are going to be hurt the most." And they have done that. At first, there was bickering going on, and so they separated. He went to the condo so that there wouldn't be that going on. Until they calmed down. Now the relationship is fairly good. And they're able to talk about the problems at school, the problems at home with each other and be very, very understanding of each other and caring. And that's very important to me. Another problem I have with this marriage and divorce is that we were family friends of her mother and father for five years. And so her mother died 10 years ago, and I was very close to her. And so I, of course, saw her very close to her dying days, and I told her that I would always be there for Jayne, no matter what. And I don't find it difficult to be there. She hurt my son, but he hurt her, too. And the angels are in Heaven, as my mother said. So I have to look at both their personalities and both their qualities. She wants to go on. She does not want him anymore. I cannot make her love my son if she doesn't love him. And so I have to think about my three grandchildren and the fact that she's a very loving mother. And I have to go from there. And that's where I'm at in this stage in my life. And he's doing much better than he was. And she was his first love and his only love, and it was a very big adjustment for him. But he's over the worst of it now, I would say. But he still worries tremendously about his children. And sometimes, they have a different philosophy about education, or it might be jobs in the summer, simple things. But there 33 could be problems, and they have to learn to talk it out and… /AT/pa/pdj/es
Part one of an interview with Arthur DiGeronimo. Topics include: Arthur's family history and how his father came to the United States. Arthur's early life growing up in Fitchburg and Leominster, MA. Memories of visiting his grandparents in East Boston. His father's military service and work history. Arthur visited his father's birthplace, Lacedonia, in Italy. His childhood memories of visiting Lake Samosa, working for his father's market, and going to school in Fitchburg. Arthur's family life in general growing up. The importance of education. Arthur attended Becker College. His time in the service during World War II. What it means to be an Italian American. The traditions his family has carried on. Arthur's thoughts on the difference between his generation and his parent's. How his sons joined the family supermarket business. How life will be different for the later generations of his family. ; 1 LINDA ROSENLUND: This is Linda Rosenlund with the Center for Italian Culture. It's Thursday, September 27 at 2:35, and we're here with Arthur DiGeronimo and Anne [Rosevero]. And I'm Linda Rosenlund, like I said. So Arthur, thank you for making time for us. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, it's nice of you to come, after a little telephone tag [laughter]. LINDA ROSENLUND: Right, that's what happens with busy people. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. LINDA ROSENLUND: So can you tell me your full name and when you were born? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Sure. Arthur Paul DiGeronimo. I was born right here in Leominster. We're at the office at my executive offices for my business, supermarket business. And funny thing, right across the street was where I was born, by the North Main Street. This is 75 North Main Street. I was born right across the street from here. That was in nineteen -- not sure it's 1926. LINDA ROSENLUND: Wow. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: A couple of years ago. [Laughter] And you want something about my family, probably? LINDA ROSENLUND: Sure. First tell us your parent's names. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Sure. My mother's name was Mildred, and my father's name was James. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. Now, did they come to -- they came to this country, didn't they? You can shut that all the way. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: My mother was born in Fitchburg, and my father was born in Italy, in Lacedonia, Italy. My father… came to this country when he was nine years old. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: With his father and two of his brothers. 2 LINDA ROSENLUND: Now, what region is Lacedonia in? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Lacedonia is… it's in Naples. It's Avellino, but they call us… Napolitans, which is from Naples County. Even though it was a quite few miles from… Naples. It was about, Avellino was about maybe 50 miles, and Lacedonia is another 30 miles going out toward the other coast. ANNA ROSEVERO: [Adriatic]. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Right. LINDA ROSENLUND: So, you said that your mother was born here? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: My mother was born in Fitchburg, right at -- they call it the Patch, on Water Street in Fitchburg, which I was very proud of even though I don't know where they got that name from, but that's that. And there was strictly more Italians there than anywhere. Mostly Italians lived on that Water Street section of Fitchburg. And then I went to school in… well, that's right. I was born in Leominster, we moved to Fitchburg in the first grade. And so I went to Fitchburg School until my sophomore year, and then we moved to Leominster right on North Main Street, right near here, too. And… 124 North Main Street, to be exact, and we're 75 North Main Street at the office here. And I finished my junior and senior year in Leominster High School. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. So when did you move back to Fitchburg? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: We moved when I was six years old. LINDA ROSENLUND: Six. Now, did you move back to the Patch? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No, no, we moved from the south side of Fitchburg, which was called [the South Pole]. Yeah, it was on Mountain Avenue in Fitchburg, which is off of South Street. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. So, can you tell me a little bit about the Patch? Anything that you remember?3 ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No, other than… I mean, I never lived there, but I can tell you too much about all the years when they used to have markets. They used to have [Gloria chain] markets and DiMinno's market, who was a cousin of ours, the DiMinno family. The DiMinno family's mother and my father were brother and sister, so those are my first cousins. LINDA ROSENLUND: So your mother grew up on Market Street? I mean, the Patch? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Water Street. Water Street. Yes, yes. LINDA ROSENLUND: So did you know your mother's parents? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, very well, yes. Yeah. They were Spadafora. They had a street tenement block, and downstairs was a drug store by the name of [Darmin] Drug Store if I remember correctly. My memory isn't as good as it used to be. And… my grandmother and grandfather lived on the second floor, and my aunt and uncle on the third floor. LINDA ROSENLUND: And what were your grandparents' names? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: My grandparents' was Spadafora, Michael and… Marianne. LINDA ROSENLUND: So can you tell me a little bit about visits with them? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, yes. A lot of visits. But they did move to Boston, to my mother's sister. She went to live in Boston with my mother's sister's family. And that was in East Boston, you know, on Bennington Street in the East Boston. LINDA ROSENLUND: How old were you at that time? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I don't recall that. I would think it would be early in life, maybe even… no. If it comes to me, I'll let you know about how old I was. At this point I can't… and I remember going to Boston to visit quite a bit, Sundays with my father, his only day off from the market. He started the business, my father and uncle started the business, and I 4 remember as a child him driving my family to Boston to visit with my aunt and uncle and my grandmother and grandfather. We got to know cousins who were involved. And my aunt had five daughters. She didn't have any sons. So, when I went down for a visit, they treated me like a brother, you know? I'm talking about the cousins, the girls. They were about my age, and they loved to see us come, my brother and I. I didn't mention my brother Michael. I had a brother, Michael, who was killed in World War Two in the Yankee division during the Battle of the Bulge. It's skipping all around, but this is the way it's coming to me, you know? LINDA ROSENLUND: Oh, that's all right. That's how it happened. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: My aunt's name? Aunt Jeanette. LINDA ROSENLUND: Jeanette? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: My aunt Jeanette and my uncle was uncle Peter. [Foralla], their last name was [Foralla]. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. Okay. So basically, you remember visiting your grandparents… ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, quite often. LINDA ROSENLUND: … in East Boston, but not really Fitchburg? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: In Fitchburg… well, you know, I don't recall. Yes, yes, because I remember when my grandfather died, I was old enough… to see my grandfather when he passed away. So… so, yes. I recall, I recall going to Boston as I got older, you know? Like, I'm talking about the years, maybe, when I -- my teen, my teen years, we used to go to Boston. And Fitchburg, my grandmother and grandfather were… I was a lot younger then. LINDA ROSENLUND: So what were dinners like? 5 ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: We used to love to go to for dinner. Actually, Italian food, the pasta, the meatballs, slashes in the pork, yeah. Fond memories are there. I can always remember the good eating times [laughter]. LINDA ROSENLUND: So tell me what a Sunday was like when you would go visit. Did you go to church, or…? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, no, we'd go to church here. We'd leave after church and drive down -- fond memories of [unintelligible - 00:09:17] we couldn't make it in an hour, it took a little longer. But our mother, what fascinated me the most was going through the tunnel. It's not the Callahan, the [unintelligible - 00:09:32] Tunnel, yeah. [Unintelligible - 00:09:34] We got to go through a tunnel, you go underwater, you know, and you're just a little, you're not too old, and it was thrilling to do it, you know? And we'd always, I'd always kid my mother, I'd say, "Gee, can we move to Boston?" because it was fascinating, you know? It was so much different than being in the small, small town, you know? But we had some nice times there. My uncle, which is my mother's brother, Uncle Tony, he was a druggist. And on the first floor tenement home in East Boston, he had a drug store on the bottom floor. But what a great guy he was also. All my uncles were, but… I can remember fond memories of him. We would raid his drug store when we were at the… because they lived on the second floor, my grandmother and grandfather and uncle, and business was on the first floor. And my uncle Tony and his wife lived there also. And he would open up that, he would -- we could go downstairs five times a day and have ice cream. He used to make ice cream, sodas and we used to raid the place and he never complained once. We'd 6 come in, he'd leave his customers to come and take care for us, you know? Because we didn't go every week, you know? Maybe once a month or twice a month, something like that, you know? So, it wasn't that we went a lot of times. But fond memories of eating ice cream cones and… I'll never get vanilla ice cream sodas; I used to have three or four before we'd leave come back Sunday. And he loved doing that. And my grandfather, God love him, he was a very quiet man. But he was, if you got to know him, he was very, very witty. You know, I can remember him doing little dances for us. And before we left, every one of us kids got a half a dollar. In them days, you know, that's like, probably like a donut, you know? We enjoyed them. And I have a son, Michael, that I named Michael, who's -- I think you know Michael too. He's very like my grandfather on my mother's side—very quiet, and yet he has the same characteristics as my grandfather. Very, very similar. I mean, he is today too. It's funny that I named him Michael, you know? And I named him Michael because of my brother, who was killed in the service, and my grandfather. And my grandfather on my father's side. I mean, my -- yeah. My grandfather on my… LINDA ROSENLUND: Your great-grandfather or you grandfather? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: My grandfather, his name was Michelangelo. So a lot of Michaels in the DiGeronimos. LINDA ROSENLUND: Interesting. Now, those sodas that you were talking about and the ice cream, was there any place like that in Fitchburg or in Leominster that you used to go to? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, yeah. Downstairs at [Dormin's], and I don't really recall that going into drug stores when I was too young. 7 But, you know, the general ice cream cone has taken us to places around town for ice cream cones and things like that. Yes. LINDA ROSENLUND: So tell me about your father. How old was he when he came here? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: My father was nine years old. Yeah. And he entered the service in nineteen… when the war broke out, the World War One, now. Okay. He went, he was drafted, went in the service, he served. Then when he got out, he went to work in a foundry, and he didn't like to work there because for health reasons, you know, the breathing and everything, working in the foundry. And that's when he went to business with his brother who, Michael, who was killed, who was wounded in the World War One. And the two of them started with a supermarket in 1923. Not supermarket, I'm sorry, market. [Laughter] You'd thought it was big. Oh, about twice the size of this office! [Laughter] And that's what they started on Mechanic Street in Leominster. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. Now, about your father, who did he come here with? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: He came here with two of his brothers, and his father brought them over. My grandfather was married three times. And it wasn't because he divorced or anything, but his first wife died very, very young, and his second wife was my grandmother. And I never knew her. She died of a -- I don't think, she was just close to 40 years old. She died very young also. But she had a lot of children, many. I would think about a lot of them, probably, with the [unintelligible - 00:15:21] then after she died, he went to Italy and he married, he brought back another Italian lady that was to be my… step grandmother. And she had one, 8 which would be -- you probably know… my uncle Tony DiGeronimo, whose son is a priest, Michael DiGeronimo. So they're related, you know, they're half. He was a half-brother to my father. LINDA ROSENLUND: Why did your father decided to come to Fitchburg? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, no. No, we were in Leominster first. We moved -- yeah, we moved to Fitchburg. I'm sorry, yeah. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay, so… ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: We moved to Fitchburg when I was six, so I lived here until I was six years old. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: And then we moved to Fitchburg and then we moved back my junior year, my sophomore year. LINDA ROSENLUND: So, why Leominster then? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, the business is in Leominster. We all -- why did we go to Fitchburg? LINDA ROSENLUND: No, I'm sorry. [Laughter] ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: That's right. LINDA ROSENLUND: Why did your grandfather choose Leominster to settle? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I don't know if I can give you an answer to that, really. Just coming into this country, yeah, I think it had something -- it must have something to do with building of the railroads, I think. Something -- I really, I would have to ask. Maybe my sister would probably know. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. I was just wondering if there were any family stories of why Leominster was chosen. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I don't know. I really… I'd have to think about that one. LINDA ROSENLUND: Now, was your grandfather a laborer in Italy? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. Not a laborer, no. He was like a sheriff. He was in charge of a jail. He didn't own it. I mean, he just worked as the principal in the jail that they had in Lacedonia.9 LINDA ROSENLUND: Now, that's a new one. I haven't heard that yet [laughter]. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah. That's the truth too. And I guess he left just to get to better things in America, like a lot of the Italians who came here. But he came earlier, that was in his first trip over. He came earlier then went back and got two of his sons and daughters and brought them back. Yeah. LINDA ROSENLUND: Have you been back to the village? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I certainly have. LINDA ROSENLUND: Tell me about that. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah. A few years back my wife and I and my sister and her husband, Mike [DeBitteto], the four of us went to Italy for 17 days. Just a few years back, not a lot, a lot of years, maybe seven or eight years ago. And naturally, we had to go to… you know, when you're in Rome and then you go to Naples and you go to Capri and Positano, Amalfi Drive and the things like that. And then, oh it's time to go find Lacedonia. Well, what a job finding that! I mean, well, it's near Avellino, that's the thing. So, we got our directions and we took a ride through the [Malfi Drive], and… oh, humorous story. We rented a limo for the day with the driver, and I don't want to drive out there not knowing where I was going. And I asked him, I says… he says, "Where are you going?" We said, "We're going to Avellino. I want to go find out where my father was born, and that's in Lacedonia." And he says, "Yeah? This is Lacedonia. You never heard of it?" Now, here's a kind of a guy who should know his way around Italy, right? So, he says, "It's near Avellino?" I said, "Yeah," so we got out of Avellino. Well, he stuck. He didn't know where to go from there. So he started asking different people. And we couldn't talk Italian. My mother and father never spoke to 10 me, and I regret today, I would love to have had them to talk Italian to me every day. And, you know, besides the English language, I would have loved to really learn it. But I can understand a little, few things here and there, you know? I pick up on something. In fact, I know a few words in Italian. Not bad ones either, I'm talking about some pretty [laughter]. I can start off a little. Anyway, he finally talked to someone in this town there about Lacedonia. And he says, "Lacedonia?" He says, "That's about 30 0r 35 miles toward the Adriatic, right?" And I said, "Fine, let's go!" right? And the he says, "No, no, no," he says, "You gave me $300 to take you to Avellino," he says. I said, "Look, take me there. Whatever it is, I'll take care of you. Don't worry," you know? So, anyway, he complained all day long that he had to drive another 35 or so miles. So as we drove through -- and nice highways, up that way, gee, I saw a sign that said [Forgio] about 20 miles. And we were near Lacedonia, but it was kind of like Lacedonia was this way and Forgio -- I didn't know we were that close to Forgio. And I'm always kidding my friends who, their parents are from Forgio -- Forgians, they call them. And I kid them that, "Oh, that's not even in Italy," you know, "just Lacedonia is in Italy" [laughter]. But, so we got up there. It was up a little mountain. You could see it from a highway, you know? It was out in the -- cute little place. And we got into town, and I'll never forget… we saw my father's birthplace, of which we surely took pictures. I have pictures of all that. You know, one of the biggest shows of my life was going to see where my father was born. Don't mind me. I break up a little. But we did that. We went to -- oh, we were 11 walking along one of these streets, and I look down the road and I see DiGeronimo Market. LINDA ROSENLUND: A market? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah. I forget -- what was the name for market, do you know? ANNA ROSEVERO: Is it [unintelligible - 00:23:05] bodega? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Something like that. But they had a big sign on the road and everything. I really got excited at that. So I went down, and there was a little, small inn, about as big as this, about as big as my office here, no bigger than that. And he had all kinds of meats, fresh meats and cold cuts. He didn't have canned goods. It wasn't a full market, you know? But he had fish and different refrigeration cases, little produce, no groceries, really. So I walked in there and he was still waiting on a customer. Now, he doesn't know me. I didn't know him and he doesn't know -- his name was John DiGeronimo. And I… I didn't know how to start talking, because he started asking me, you know, what do I want to buy, you know? So I took my license plate and my license number, right, out of my wallet, and I handed it to him. I said, "I'm a DiGeronimo." He looked, he come, and he hugged me. He, "Follow me." My wife and I and my sister, we go, closes the market up right across the street to his home, right across the street. And there we met -- now, this has got to be a distant cousin I have, we couldn't even put out parents, but we must have been related somehow, you know, distance, [unintelligible - 00:24:52]. But we went over there and we met his wife, a lovely lady with two of the nicest daughters, and they were, they treated us as if they had known us… you know, we were so thrilled, and 12 they wanted us to stay overnight with them. I mean, they couldn't have been any more far, you know? And they didn't know we were coming or who we were, you know? They just -- we had some pictures with us, and we showed them pictures of my father, things about my father lived, he was born here and things like that, you know. But that was one of the nicest things. And naturally, they wouldn't let us go. We had to eat, we had to eat before we -- and now, the little guy is getting real nervous. When we finally left—and we must've stayed at least two or three hours with them—they wouldn't let us go. We kept saying that we got to go, and they actually stopped us. And we didn't want to barge on anybody, you know? So, anyway, we had a good time with them exchanging our family pin. Gloria did most of the talk, because Gloria, my wife's mother and father, were from Italy also. And that's another story, but you probably don't want to hear that one, I don't know. But they're from… I'd say Abruzzi, Corfinio and Abruzzi, and we went there too. Yeah, we -- I'll tell you a little bit about that. LINDA ROSENLUND: Yeah. Now, what year are we talking when you went back? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: When we went back? Oh, I'd say five, six years ago. LINDA ROSENLUND: Interesting. Did you see any family resemblance? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, yes, yes. Definitely DiGeronimo trait, and don't ask me what it is. We got to the nicest man, and I can't say enough about him. And we correspond, we used to. Now we haven't for the last couple of years. But first when we got home, we started back and forth, but it was nice. We sent them things and they sent us things, stuff like that. But it's a warm feeling, you know? 13 LINDA ROSENLUND: I have to ask you something, and it's not even about this, but you just mentioned -- did you mention your sister was married to… Michael? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: DiBitteto. LINDA ROSENLUND: Oh, it's very strange because I went to Assumption College with Mike DeBitteto. But when I came here and heard you talking, I thought of him immediately. Because there's something about you. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, it's got to be. It's got to be Michael. LINDA ROSENLUND: He worked at the insurance, yes? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes, right across the street. LINDA ROSENLUND: [Laughter] I've lost touch with him now, but I used to know him very well, and somehow you… you resemble him a little bit. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: He is my nephew. LINDA ROSENLUND: Very strange. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. Nice boy, very nice boy. LINDA ROSENLUND: As soon as you said the name, I thought, "I have to share this." [Laughter] ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Are you going to leave a [catch], or I can tell him… LINDA ROSENLUND: I don't have one, but I'll leave my name. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Name? Yeah, yeah. I'd love to tell him about it. Yeah, great. LINDA ROSENLUND: Good. Interesting. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah, that's who I was with, his mother, with his mother and father on that trip, 17 days. We had a great time. LINDA ROSENLUND: Did you? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. We want to go back now. They want to go back, so it's just, "Whenever you're ready." But I was playing on something next year, but I hope we'll be able to go by then. Things may be under control. They may have enough of 14 these maniacs so that we can live our lives again, you know? LINDA ROSENLUND: I was with a woman this morning who has a son that lives in Spain, and she told me that he told her that they arrested 30 people yesterday from Spain. Terrorists. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, wow. LINDA ROSENLUND: So, I think there's a lot happening in other countries. Maybe we're not even hearing about it. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh yeah? That's right, that's right. LINDA ROSENLUND: And that's scaring themselves to think that somebody [unintelligible - 00:28:57]. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I know. LINDA ROSENLUND: So, why don't you tell me a little bit about growing up in Leominster? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: In Leominster? Shoot, Leominster I can't. Leominster I can't… LINDA ROSENLUND: Oh, I know, in Fitchburg, I'm sorry. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: This is the first grade. Oh, in fact, we moved from North Main before we went to Fitchburg. We moved from North Main Street here, we moved down to French Hill on 8th Street. And that's where I lived until we moved. I lived maybe five years there until we moved to Fitchburg. I'm surprised why you didn't ask me why we didn't move to Fitchburg with here from Leominster and my father's business in Leominster. Well, I had an uncle. I had an Uncle Mike who was closer to my father then my Uncle Louie, who came into business with my father. And he had a barber shop in Fitchburg. And he had a two-tenement house on the south side of Fitchburg, a nice, nice area and everything. And he wanted my father to move. He had the downstairs; he wanted [unintelligible - 00:30:18] live 15 upstairs and he wanted my father downstairs. So that's when we moved to Fitchburg. Now, my uncle never drove, and he… everywhere my father went, took his brother. They were so close. You know, a lot of brothers are close, but these two, I've never seen two brothers that close. I mean, they just lived their whole lives together. And he died of cancer on Easter Sunday. I'll never forget the barber. He was 46 years old. Yes, that's Ernie DiGeronimo's father. Yes, Doctor Ernie, you know him? LINDA ROSENLUND: And this is Michael? Michael? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: His name was Michael. LINDA ROSENLUND: Michael. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah. I told you, a lot of Michaels. [Laughter] But he was a great guy. My father, we had a camp down at Lake [Samosa], in the early '30s, and his family, we'd get in the car and the truck, and we'd get down the lake. He was always there. As a kid, I can always remember him being there. And we got along great until he passed away. Then my father was so shook he wanted to move back to Leominster. And that's when he bought the home on North Main Street. LINDA ROSENLUND: So tell me about Lake [Samosa]. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes, Lake [Samosa] No, I can remember my young [laughter] the days down there. My father, his business, we used to close Wednesday afternoon, 12 o'clock, we used to close. That was -- and Sunday, both the only days that market wasn't open. And naturally, in the summer months, that's where we used to spend all our time. In fact, we used to stay there, not just visit, not just go down for the day. You know, my mother used to stay there with the kids and everything. My father used to commute back and forth. 16 That's when I really [laughter], that's when I really started to work at the [laughter] in the market, in my father's market because, you know, he's going to work and I'm nine years old. And in them days, that's when the fathers wanted their sons—at least my father—wanted us to learn the business and do the things that we could do to help in his business. That's how we get started in my father's business. We used to -- you know, today everything comes in a 10-pound bag. In them days a 100-pound bag and you had to get a paper bushel bag, and we had to scoop the potatoes and then tie them up with twine. And that's how they sold potatoes in them days. And, I mean, it's the same thing is to have to bag those, and there were other things that we did. And I used to deliver my father's circulars, which today is an advertising thing like this. But it wasn't like that in them days; it was just maybe a piece of paper with the items that he was featuring. And we couldn't mail them. The mail was too expensive to mail them. And so my cousin Joe and I used to, once a week, a certain day, we used to deliver these to every home—not every home in Leominster, not the ones way out, but French Hill, the Italian section, West Side. We used to deliver these to every home, just drop them off at the door and keep going. I never [laughter], I never liked dogs because [laughter] -- that's why I've never had a dog to my children. They always said, "Dad, get me a dog." I had an experience with one and, you know, I was delivering, and he took a chunk out of me. But it wasn't serious, but it was enough to scare me from dogs. But Joe and I used to, we used to kid each other about it. We'd say, "Uh-oh, who's got to take this house?" [Laughter] God forbid if we had to do it, I mean, 17 you go back there, there's [imitates growling], you know. There we skipped a few houses [laughter]. You've got to answer to your father. LINDA ROSENLUND: Would you walk or take your bike? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, walk. LINDA ROSENLUND: Walk? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Walk. Yeah. I didn't have a bike. LINDA ROSENLUND: No? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, we -- you know, we didn't have a lot of money in them days. And I remember having bikes, but I was a little older when I got a bike. LINDA ROSENLUND: Do you have any of those old fliers? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No. LINDA ROSENLUND: No? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No, I don't. I may have some ads I used to put in the… oh, that's when we had the business here. I go back that far. LINDA ROSENLUND: So tell me what a day was like for you when you were about eight or nine? For example, did you go to school first, and then… ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes, oh, yes. Oh, I had to go to school, yes. LINDA ROSENLUND: So just tell me, give me an example of what a day was like in your life when you were about that age. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, I'll tell you maybe in Fitchburg, because I was six years old when we moved to Fitchburg and there was a school on South Street, Steep Hill in Fitchburg. You know where it is, because it's back and forth all the time, right? Hosmer School it was called, H-O-S-M-E-R, Hosmer School. It's a different thing now. Well, I went there for my second grade to my eighth grade. And from where I lived in Mountain Avenue, I had to walk down that hill. And you wouldn't mind it. Today I would mind if I had to 18 climb up, right? We had to walk to school. There were no buses, you know, school buses. You walked. And then when I went to Fitchburg High School, I had to walk from way up from Mountain Avenue all the way to Fitchburg High School, which was at the other, almost at the other end of town, right? But getting back to what you had asked me, yeah, I remember teachers' names. I remember… [Crotty], the principal. And she had that little whip, that little -- and she wasn't afraid to use it, you know? LINDA ROSENLUND: But I'm sure you never misbehaved. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No, no, no. I never got hit, but I got some -- you know, a few taps and words, you know? Then there was a Miss O'Brien. She was my seventh grade teacher. I had a hard time with her, I don't know why. I don't think she liked me. You know, I'm not going to say this, because I don't want you to, I don't think she liked Italians. LINDA ROSENLUND: Oh, no? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, that's what I always thought. Because my brother would say boo, he had a mouthful, because my brother -- and I was quiet. I was really quiet, and I still am, but no one believes it. [Laughter] She had Michael, and then three years later she had me. And she gave Michael a really hard time. And Michael told me, he says, "Oh, you're going to get Miss O'Brien," and I says, "Yeah, I know it." But there are other -- Miss [Cunahan], and there was another O'Brien in the third grade. She was a peach. She was [unintelligible - 00:38:43]. I can still remember her, short, heavy-set woman, the nicest, a good teacher. I learned a lot from her. Geez, I'm surprised I remember these names. They're coming to me. LINDA ROSENLUND: It's funny how it comes back.19 ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: It's coming to me after, you know. But I enjoyed Hosmer. I played basketball as a kid at Hosmer. We played other elementary schools and things like that. And Miss Crotty, she was -- we used to have a field day at [Trocca] field, and we used to wear our… the same colors of the school. I think I was in yellow. I can't remember now. But we used to always dress with the colors, and we were proud of our Hosmer School, you know? Forget about Nolan School. You probably went to Nolan, didn't you? Sure. And, well, we were from Hosmer, and naturally, you know, everyone from there, [Wallow] Street School. We used to play basketball to all these schools, and it was nice. We'd get to meet other kids. But you always came from the best school, right? LINDA ROSENLUND: What would you do during your field day? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I don't know. What would we do? I can't recall, but I remember going to Crocker Field with the family, and playing different games and things like that. Yes. LINDA ROSENLUND: So getting back to working, though. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, no. I've got a good story. I've got a good story. But we'll all get back to work. All right. I got to be a pretty good basketball player. My freshmen year, our team went undefeated, and we were going to the junior high. They called it junior high in them days. Now, the freshmen, the seniors, it's all high school now. So we left [unintelligible - 00:40:41], which was our junior high school. And my team was undefeated. The same guys were going into high school. Well, as I was getting older, my father kept relying on me more and more to do work. And, you know, so I never told him about the basketball. I was a little too young to have to report every day. But you know, I got to 20 be a sophomore, he kind of wanted me there mostly every day. Now, I had to come, get on a bus, come to Leominster. And I'll never forget my sophomore year, [unintelligible – 00:41:37] basketball season came, all the guys, we all went out for basketball. And I heard all the other guys I played with on the first team, they went to the varsity in their sophomore year and I was very unusual, because I wasn't going to be there. I went the first day to practice, and I didn't tell my parents. So my father thought, after school I'll have to come down to the market, and when he closes at six we go home, right? Well, I got there around five, 5:30 and, "Where you've been?" I says, "Dad," I says, "I'm going to play basketball for the high school [unintelligible- 00:42:24] Coach Oliver." Do you remember Johnny Oliver? Yeah? He lived at the corner of Mountain Avenue. And then I says, "Maybe he's putting me on the varsity because I'm a neighbor." It was my old team. It wasn't just me, you know? So anyway, "Playing basketball? But you got to work." Well, I never played another game. And you know, today it's so much different. You push your children to play sports and things like that, but my father was a lovely man, but he was very, very strict. I suppose he had to be at the business he had to run, and he relied on me. And you know, to him, that was all right, because I probably I wouldn't have had this if I tried to do something else in life. You know? So I always praise my father. I say, "Dad, thank god you disciplined me enough…" it broke my heart, you know? I'm only -- how old am I, 15 years old, you know? Fourteen, 15, and not to be able to play, which, I loved the sport anyway. LINDA ROSENLUND: Were you different with your own children? 21 ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, totally. [Laughter] Yes. And they all… most of them -- Jay, my oldest boy, David was the captain of the basketball team. Steven was captain of the basketball team his year and his year. So they were real -- they must've got a little few genes from me. Michael didn't go out for sports, and Jay didn't go out for sports. David played in the band. Oh, he enjoyed that too. He has a group now, they don't call them the… it will come. But they play locally. They're a band, they're a rock band. They play loud, loud music. I've gone a couple of times, but it's not my music. LINDA ROSENLUND: So he's not played for the Leominster band then? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No. He played for the Leominster High School when he was in high school. Yeah. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. So tell me about the neighborhood that you lived in. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Here, I can't remember it all, because I don't think I was two years old when we moved down to French Hill on 8th Street. I remember down at 8th Street, though, the… no, I was on 7th Street. I'm sorry. 8th street was bound. The next street over, and I'm thinking the Lombardis. The Lombardis and Finney, they lived on 8th Street, and our backyards were together. And the Lombardis they were good friends of ours many years, and we're still very, very friendly with them. And they had a mother who did all the gardens and did all the cooking, and her husband passed away. And she brought up all their family. And I don't know how she did it, but she was an amazing woman. And she was very friendly with my mother, Clementine Lombardi. Her and my mother were like sisters, you know. And she used to make the bread, and you could smell it, but you know, we could smell it, and in the summer months especially, you know. But that's the young years that I can 22 remember, you know, playing with your sleds and things like that you do when you're kid, and hanging out the summertime in the yard with the Lombardi family and all the neighborhood. I had some good neighbors. I had some friends. But you know, to be that young and remember, you still have good memories of those things. Playing in the garden -- she never, Clementine never complained. Everything that she had was ours too, and she treated us like her own. She really did, she was a wonderful lady. She lived to be close to 100, yeah, Clementine. Lovely lady. And always visiting my mother. I'd drive her down, or Paul would take her down to my mother's, and my mother would get down there. So they were very, very close. She lived much longer than my mother, passed away at 79. Clementine lived to the almost a 100. Ninety-eight, I think. Wonderful, wonderful, hardworking lady. Boy, she worked. Of course, my mother didn't work, because my mother had to look kids. We had five. But those were nice days. LINDA ROSENLUND: You had five? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I got six. My mother. Yeah. I had two brothers and two sisters. LINDA ROSENLUND: Okay. When I read some information about you, just from the Fitchburg Historical Society, they only listed your brothers for some reason. I don't know why. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: My brothers? LINDA ROSENLUND: Well, your brother. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Are you sure it wasn't my son? LINDA ROSENLUND: Arthur and Michael. There was no mention of sisters. So I didn't even know that you had any. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, really? 23 LINDA ROSENLUND: It was just an article, so maybe they were concentrating on the business, so they didn't… ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, all right. I'm going to give you this. You're going to read it and if you can pick anything from it that you'd like, that's fine with me. You don't have to mention the business. I don't -- you know, if that's not part of it, that's fine. LINDA ROSENLUND: Oh, it may be part of it, but it's just that we're trying to center on the history. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah. LINDA ROSENLUND: Fitchburg and Leominster and the Italians coming in. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Sure. LINDA ROSENLUND: So how was life different for your sisters then, growing up in your family? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, I don't know… other than being close to the brothers and brother and sister relationship, we got to live in -- well, we had a five-bedroom when we were up in Fitchburg, and my sister had… I remember my brother and I had a double bed, and Rita was the third one, and she had a single bed in the same room and everything. I mean, you never hear of that today. They want their own room, you know? It's a little different. And there was a closeness, because at night we talked and, you know, fight and whatever, you know? Not physically, but, you know, verbally. But you get very close to the family that way, you really do. Because my brother Michael was killed in the services two years older than I was, yet he treated -- I mean, he was with his friends. You know, three years, growing up, is a big difference. But he never treated me like too young to hang around with. My brother was very good to me. And I was good to him. Well, he was good to me. Let's put it that way. I 24 might have been a pain sometimes [laughter], you know? Little brothers are. LINDA ROSENLUND: So your sisters, though, were they expected to work at the supermarket? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No. They had to take care of the home. That's what my mother had to do, bringing them up. And the girls had the different life. You know, in them days I don't think there were many high school women or girls who worked at the store, really. Maybe it's because I never saw my daughter or my sisters work, you know? But no, my father never called on the girls to come and do work in the store. And you know what? In my business, we never pushed ahead my daughters. I never pushed them. My daughters can do the business. Of course, my brother Jimmy, he's got the three boys, and Joe's got the two girls, but they never came into the -- Joe's, they never came into the business either. Just I don't know why but he just didn't push it. Not that they wouldn't come in. Like Jane, my daughter Jane, I mean, coming into the business, sure, they went to work as a cashier in the store, but they didn't come down to do the things that my sons do versus what my daughters. Like Lisa, when they got 16, they worked at my market. Not full-time, part-time, like a high school girl work. You know, cashier or stuff like that. Yeah, they did, but they didn't come into the business as such. LINDA ROSENLUND: Was education important to your family when you were growing up? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They all went to -- you mean, you don't mean my family? You mean my… LINDA ROSENLUND: Your parents. Was it important to your parents?25 ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, yes. Yes. Well, we were in the service, and we all went to college. I went to Becker's College, and I got an associate's degree in business. And then I was going to further my education and go for my bachelor's degree, but my father lost his stepbrother, who worked quite a bit for him. His stepbrother, yeah. And he went into business for himself, and he left when I was just starting another year of business school. And I guess I was the one who only went for two years. My cousins went for four years, so they couldn't come into the business. So I was the first one into my father's business full-time after my education at Becker College. I came in. My father needed help very bad, and so I says, "Dad, this is going to be my living." And I stopped going, and I came into the business. I had to help him out. Because, you know, my father and uncle, they couldn't do a lot of things that my step-uncle could do. He took all the [wasted] delivery; he took all of the orders. He could write clearer than my father and my uncle. And when he left, it left a big void in my father's business, and that's when I went in, in 1950. 1950 I went into my father's business. And in '55 we opened up, this was our first supermarket. Yeah, five years later. Yes. And I had… my two cousins who came into the business after finished college, so they came in. My brother Jimmy, who had the four years left to go, he didn't come in until four years later. It will be a lot in there if you read, you can get some stuff out of. LINDA ROSENLUND: It sounds as if you never thought of doing anything else, about working? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No, that's when I made the decision that that's what I wanted to do. And not only to help my father, naturally, 26 but to, you know -- because I got married in 1951, so I had to make up my mind to go full-time to work, you know? And that's what I knew most of over the years growing up and [unintelligible - 00:55:16] in the service. I spent two years in the service. Went overseas, 18 years old. LINDA ROSENLUND: After graduating from high school? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah. Yeah, 1944. LINDA ROSENLUND: Tell me a little bit about that. I know it must be painful for you to talk about it. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, I took my basic training, and then, the Battle of the Bulge, I was just through my basic training. I was going overseas, and we got word that my brother was killed. And I went overseas as an infantry replacement, because so many Americans got killed at that time that they were calling. They shortened my basic training, and I'm on the ship going overseas, and I joined my officer right after the Bulge in Bastogne, Germany as just the rifleman, an 18-year-old. I didn't know what it was about and all, but I got through it. I don't know how, but we did. LINDA ROSENLUND: So you got active duty then? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. Yes. I was -- once a bullet goes over your head, you get a combat badge. And I'm very proud of it. I still have it on top of my bureau. It's a blue picture of a rifle, and the only time you could get it is if you were… LINDA ROSENLUND: I've been watching that special HBO, have you seen that? It's called Band of Brothers. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I watched part of it. I didn't watch too much of it. I went to see a Ryan, what's that? LINDA ROSENLUND: Private Ryan. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Private Ryan. It stayed with me a little. Usually stuff like that doesn't, you know? I went two years ago, when it first 27 came out, and my wife says, "Do you really want to go see that?" And I says, "Yeah." But you know, we were [unintelligible – 00:57:31] at the time, let me tell you. And my daughter Lisa was down for a week. She was [unintelligible - 00:57:34]. And she was down with her husband and we went to the theater, and we went to see the Ryan movie, right? Private Ryan. And my daughter and my wife went to see some other movie in the same building. I can't say I enjoyed it, you know. It was so real, it really was. But I get over it. I mean, you know, but that's why I haven't looked, but they tell me it's a great series. LINDA ROSENLUND: So last Sunday, the segment was called "The Replacement," so -- and you just told me… ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Wow, really? LINDA ROSENLUND: Yeah. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah, that's how it went over. You know, it would have been nice if I could have gone over with [unintelligible - 00:58:37] same guys and everything when you go for replacement. LINDA ROSENLUND: I never even thought of it before. But then watching it, just to see how hard that was. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yeah. LINDA ROSENLUND: You weren't even sure who was on your team and who wasn't. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, yes. Yes. Well, I lived in the [unintelligible - 00:58:57] and I don't brag about that. I was in the foxhole for two weeks. It was just [unintelligible – 00:59:01] and chocolates and… just keep your head down, they said. Keep your head down; the artillery will take care of everything.28 LINDA ROSENLUND: So you actually stay in that foxhole? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, yes. Yeah. It's like a dream, "Did it really happen?" You know, "Did this really happen?" And we lost half a battalion. We went to a town in Germany, and we were dug in, and we were supposed to take the town over but we heard there was some SS troops, German troops—those were the tough ones, the SS. And the air force didn't want to bomb before we went in. They didn't think there was that much in there, but we had heard there were, you know? So the air force didn't want to bomb, so they made us go in, and we lost a lot of our guys. They could've bombed that town, but maybe they didn't want to hit the civilians. You know how we are in America. LINDA ROSENLUND: They showed something like that last week. There was, you know, the infantry comes in and they kind of case the area, and they saw a German tank. But the tank was hidden by a brick building. So one of the infantry soldiers ran up to a British tank and told the guy, "There's a tank right there around the building." And he said, "I was told not to damage any buildings." ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, boy. LINDA ROSENLUND: So he was forced… ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, I've got to watch that. That's quite different from Private Ryan, isn't it? LINDA ROSENLUND: And what's nice about it, it's just one hour. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. That's enough. LINDA ROSENLUND: A little bit too much. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. LINDA ROSENLUND: So tell me about being Italian. What does that mean to you? 29 ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: I don't know. Being Italian. You know, we're all Americans, but I don't know, there's just something, I have such respect for the Italians that… like they can do no wrong. But I know there's bad in every nationality. But I'm very proud of being Italian. I'm an American, but very proud of the heritage. I don't know, I'm proud of it because I'm proud of my father's heritage. But you know, I think now, what about my children? I mean, they have to be proud that I'm an American. And I was proud my father was an American also, you know? Though it isn't that -- I was so young when we came from Italy that he really was an American. You know? I mean, he didn't go to the only one -- he finished the eighth grade, and that was it, then he had to go to work. So in them days, that's the way it was. But I don't know if I answered your question, but yes, I'm very proud. LINDA ROSENLUND: You said that you're proud of the heritage. What does that mean, that you're proud of the [unintelligible – 01:02:22]? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: What the Italians brought to this country, you know? I got books, the magazines that I read on some of the famous Italians, who -- you know, I like to read about them. Anything to do with Italian, I'll -- you know, I'll spend time doing a lot of reading. But normally I'm not a big reader. I couldn't sit, takes me a -- even on a cruise, to do one book? Forget it. I can't even do a book on a cruise, you know what I mean? I'm not really a reader. I'm a short reader. LINDA ROSENLUND: So did you ever feel differently then maybe some of your friends that weren't Italian while you were growing up? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Not a bit. Not one single bit. I had a friend here that lived on the North Main Street here. His name was Bill [Chase]; 30 he was one of the closest friends of mine. He didn't have to be Italian, no. But, you know, I've had a lot of Italian friends also. But no, it never bothered me no matter what nationality they were. I was friends with some Jewish boys, nice boys. It never -- you know, sure, I'm proud of being Italian. I can kid someone say… you know, I can dig the Irish or something like that, but… or the French, nothing like… a lot of the times when I'm in their company, I'll say, "Too bad you're not Italian," you know, "we're the best." Kiddingly, you know, different thing. But never really mean it. I had some close Irish friends, very close Irish friends too. I tell them jokes about the Irish, something like that, and they tell me about being Italian. But no, there never -- all these years in business when the salesmen came in, if he was Italian, it didn't make a bit of difference or whatever nationality he was. If they had the goods and I wanted to buy, I bought it. I don't care. I did business with Jewish companies, wholesale companies. And you know what I can say? Maybe I shouldn't say it [laughter]. The Jewish people are good business people. They respect getting business from you and really, they are… it's amazing. It's amazing how you, in America, at least, a lot of people -- doesn't make any difference. We're Americans. That's the way I look at it. Yet I love the Italians. So, you know? LINDA ROSENLUND: Are there any customs or traditions that you tried to carry over in your own family? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Like pasta on Sunday? Definitely. My wife, every Sunday, she's got to make the sauce and -- all from scratch. The meatballs, the sausage, the pork. You put some pork in there too. All my kids and… no one can make meatballs 31 like my wife. And my wife has taught my daughter-in-laws exact, and they do the exact thing, and what do you think the kids will say? "How come it doesn't taste like granny's?" It's wonderful to have a reputation like that, isn't it? [Laughter] And I play bocce. For years I played bocce. And I love the sport. And you know what? There are -- now that I'm in two leagues [unintelligible – 01:06:28] and Italian center league, and there is many non-Italians that can play bocce as good as Italians. And you say, "Gee, how come?" You know? It's in our blood, but I guess all through the years that we played with some French and Irish and you know what nationality, they're as good as any Italian playing bocce. They know why. You know, you think that would be -- see, there's where the Americanism comes in. If you want to play, you can be Irish, you can play. And you get to be as good as anybody if you play at it. Golfers, look at the golfers today. You know, there aren't many Italian golfers. I don't know, you know? But anyway… LINDA ROSENLUND: I was thinking of the hockey players, how they all used to be Canadian. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: French. You know, but if you get away from that… I'm not a hockey enthusiast, but there are a lot, there aren't that many black hockey players. And I wonder why. They're fast. But in basketball, it's all you see now in basketball, you know? But football you see a lot of Italians in football. Why I don't know, but you do, but not in basketball. Not in basketball. You got to be fast, you got to be tall and fast. And I always kid my two boys who played basketball, I say to them, "David and Steven, oh, you guys only had the speed that some of the blacks have." There's something 32 about the blacks. They've got those flight feet, you know? But I don't mind them either. I like to watch basketball, and they're a big percentage of them. If it bothered me, I wouldn't get so interested in it. But I do. LINDA ROSENLUND: What kind of celebrations did you have for, let's say, Christmas? Have you followed tradition? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Oh, yes. Yeah. Night before Christmas, we have our seven fishes. We don't have any sauce that night. That comes the next day, with the ravioli. Now and today, we look forward, my kids look forward to the Christmas Eve dinner versus Christmas Day dinner. I don't know why, but you know? Christmas Day, you might have turkey, roast beef, and you have your ravioli. But that night you don't have any of that. It's all fish. It's all fish. The kids, the calamari, the pasta, the sauce, the -- what do they call it -- the [aglio e olio], right? Pour that white sauce over the pasta, as good as the red one [laughter]. But that's the tradition. And we exchange our gifts that night. Because if the kids, when the kids were young, the boys wanted to be Christmas morning with their kids, with their own kids, where they can open up their gifts and then they can put together the toys that they got. And then at night they come over to our house after they've had the day with themselves. But they will stay the night before until 11 or 12 o'clock. But then we give all the gifts out, you know? LINDA ROSENLUND: Do you feel like your generation rejected any values from the first generation? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: No, I can't think… the only thing I would say was… my father being that strict and no sports was on his game. I mean, his business is bringing up the same [unintelligible - 01:11:16] working hard. But you know, I never… I don't 33 know if I could ever tell my son, "I need you in the business. You can't play basketball." You know, especially if they're good at it. You know what I mean? But you know, you don't have to be that good now today. As long as they play the game, as long as they play the sport, it's the only thing I can really… I didn't reject it. Disappointed, yes. But I learned a lesson from it. When I got married, I said, "I'm not going to let it happen to my kids. If they want to play." It was a different situation. My father couldn't afford to pay people to do work in the store, you know? And today we have a business that we don't have to rely on -- I don't have to have my Sean, who just started college, I don't have to have him work in the business. He did. He worked in high school. David had him working in high school, but it isn't that he had to, you know what I mean? But it's good for him. It's good for all. I've got my little Katie, who turned 16, she's at St. Bernard's, and she works in the store. That's wonderful. But they don't take away from soccer or sports or Sean's baseball for the high school. He was their catcher for three years. And my son David never stopped; he never said no, he had to get to work at the Victory. And it's just a different world. It's different. It's a better world. I think it's a better world when you can have your kids, you know, spoil them rotten. [Laughter] What the heck. And, you know, the parents enjoy it as much as the kids do, playing ball. You can't miss a game. When Sean was playing over the [unintelligible - 01:13:29] field, what do you think I wouldn't do? I'd leave the office and go to watch the game. I didn't want to miss it. We missed that, yeah. In the years I was building the business, you know, if I 34 couldn't drive the kids to the play—and they all played little league and basketball and soccer—my wife used to drive them there if I get home from work late from the store, but, you know, throughout the years of this business. But truth is it's nice they can do these things today that we weren't able to, that my father wasn't able to do. And I'm sure if he lived in this generation, I know he'd be the same way. He wouldn't… how can you say it? I don't know. I'm trying to think of a word, it won't come out, but that's all right. LINDA ROSENLUND: Would you have been understanding if your sons didn't want to join you in the market business? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, there's another -- where do you get all these questions from? [Laughter] They are good. I'll never forget. I'll tell them when they get out of college -- my first boy, Jay, went to college, he went to Georgetown, three more years, became a lawyer. I wanted to set him up in an office in Leominster. I says, "We've got a good name in Leominster, you've got a good start." I says—and this is the way I put it—"Do you want cocktails for lunch, Saturdays and Sundays off? Or do you want to come to another business and work night and day, Saturdays, Sundays and nights." He said, "Dad, I want the business." And he helped build the business to what it is today. It's 20 years now. He's been the president of our company, and if it wasn't for him I probably would have sold out a few years back, you know? And my other boys they did the same thing. They finished their college, they all went to four years college, and I says to David, my next boy, "You want to come into the business?" "Yep, I'm ready." And I says, "You don't have to. If you can find something else 35 that you like, go ahead and try it. And then you can come back into the business. I never, never, never said: "No, you're coming to the business," not one of them. And they know that. You can ask them. I always said to them, "God forbid if the business didn't go, I don't want you to say that I forced you into the business." I want a clear mind on that, right? And my other two, I did the same thing to them. They all wanted to come into the business. It's very unusual, you know? Of course, you have family too? That's wonderful, yes. LINDA ROSENLUND: But they all got the hard work ethic? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. They're all good workers too. They're not -- you know, they like this sport and stuff like that, and they have to take their children here and there, fine. But they do their job. They all do their job, which is very nice, you know? I'm very proud of them. I'm proud of my wife for bringing them up too, when I was still in business. You know, this guy's got me. I've got to share. If they didn't come over for two days, I've got to go up his house. LINDA ROSENLUND: Now, that's your grandson? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes. LINDA ROSENLUND: What's his name? He's your youngest grandson. ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Jack. LINDA ROSENLUND: Jack? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Yes, Jack. And I don't mean to single him out, don't worry. I had a lot of fun with all my others too. But this time I'm a little older and I've got a little more time, you know. If I go home for lunch, which I did today, she wasn't there today, I was disappointed. I thought she'd be there. [Laughter] She was [unintelligible - 01:17:41] devil, spoiled rotten and everything else. You should see 36 when he comes into this office, my. He's got to sit, I let him sit here. And then when we have to leave, right? He won't go. I've got to pick him up, pick him up to the car. He thinks I'm going with him and I don't, he's screaming out there. [Laughter] LINDA ROSENLUND: So how do you foresee your grandchildren's life different, as it will be different from yours? ARTHUR DIGERONIMO: Well, gee… you know, bringing up that question now, it's… when I've seen this happen, when this broke out, I didn't think of me, I thought of my kids and my grandchildren. What kind of a life is it going to be for them? You know, we were lucky. We were lucky, right, Ann? We had all this freedom for so many years, and now it's gone, but we can't act that way. We have to go forward as if everything's going to be all right. But you know, who knows what's going to happen? And I think that my four grandchildren, my kids too, because they're all in there. My daughters in their 30s, and my boys in their 40s, you know, they're still young, too, [unintelligible - 01:19:06] world, you know? Sorry, Jay. Jay, come on! Say hello to Anne and Linda. This is the guy I've been talking about. We're doing a little Italian culture. Maybe you can help me in a few questions. [Laughter] No, not the business. Why didn't grandpa, why didn't your great-grandfather come over to this? I know he took dad. He took your grandfather, and uncle… why did he come to Leominster, Fitchburg?/AT/lj/es
Issue 4.3 of the Review for Religious, 1945. ; MAy !'5, 1945"' ' ",, ris in rl÷|ncjs~ ampere " ~ ~v~ ~ '~ f~ -";~ ,~ ¯ 7ESUS CHEST IN ~THE WRITINGS OF R~MI~RE--.~" ~,7- '-~ "~ Dominic U~ger,.6.F.M~Cap: . ~. sMEDITATION, . BOOK~ , FOR MINOR~. ~S~MINAKIES Vo1. IV, No~ .3~ ~'/Publish~d 3~onthl¢; Jan~arg, Mar~h,'Mag July'September~and No~ember a~ ~h~ Cdlieg~iPres~ 606 H~ms~n Street, T~peka K~ns~s ~b~ St. Mar7 s College St. M~gs w~th ecclesiastical approbatton. Entered as~second class matter-Januar~ 15 1942 . at thvPost O~ce Topeka Kansas underthe act of ~arch 3+ 1879~' ~'~ *~ . ?"Edit0rih1.Board: Adam C. Ellis, S.J., G. Au~usfifie Ellaid,. S.J., Getaid"Kelly, S J.~: Editorial-Secretary. Alfred F. Scfine~der S J ~ . : Coplright 19~ b7 Adam,C. Ellis: permission is hereb7 grantld for quotations 3"~" of reasonableTl¢ngth,, provided due credit, ,be given this review" and the' author. -("Subscription price: 2 'dollars a,year . ,? . . ~ " ~ ~rmte~ m.U.S;t~; .- ~ . . J' / 89)~.~, ~' Our deification is as certain ds the dogma of the divinity ~;, . bf Christ/of which it is the complement. oit is novmereiy "for itself-that ~l~e:'holy Hiamanity of Jesu.s" has ~e~ei~;ed, tfie ,,_ ~f-ul:nessof the di~Jinity through the personal union with the °~.~ -Wbrd,, bu~ als0.to make all humanity divine b~ granting'a :ihareiof Hii plenitude to all whowish to receige, His ~' ~ 'muni~tion. ~ Wh.en God ~redestined His own Son to be the :i'~7 ._ ¯ S0~a 0[ l~a~ry, "He p~e ~destined us t,o become His ~ad0pfed:sons ,b~y' union~with His onb/-begotten Son. (Ephes!gns~l:5). In becoming incarnate the" W;~d "of Gbd communk~(ed ¯ ~H.is di~iinity inca very personal manner to one soul and one ~ ,body in Christ. But his limitless love, embracing th~ whol~ _ world, mad~ it poss!ble for all,o .men toshare in-tha.tpartici- , . patton of the divine¯life. "His (Christ's) InCarnation ~a~ , -- no other end or aim, than to c6mmunicate His divine" life. ~ - to us: , ,~ . - But if-the'fulness 6f the diyinity!belongs.~shbstantially to.Jesus .- ~ Christ gl0ne (C01. 2:9), all who are united to Him by holy ba'ptis~rri .~'becoNe parta~kers in this fulness each according to his measure (John- ~ ~1:16),.: .-.,Ali o~iaer individual -natures belonging, to o~hd ia~e ~.~ Adaha shall be called, to unite themselve~ to-tBi~ privilqged nature, and to recei~'e by t'his union a very real communication,of its divine~iife. ¯ There shall be but one only, Go~d-Man: but" all men who. shal1~ be ~DOMINIC- UNGER~ Son of the~Heayenly :~E~th~r; but~all those.,who shall be willing-t~ receive~ thii~only Son shall becomethereby thd adopted sons of His Ffither add shall adqfiire - ,g s~rjct, right to share in H)s heavenly inhe/i(affce. "-(Tbe" Ap6stlesbip oLPr~g~r,,~p. 138: and The Laws o~ Prodidence, p. 90.)- ~ . ,"L It is possible for Christ to b~ the Head ~f all men and to i m~ke'~hem divine becahse.He is personally' unit~d"with Go~ ahd because He possesses the fulness of divine life. which He " fofcef~!y stated b~.Father Ram~{rd:- ~ . ~ Jesfis Christ is, therefore,.3n a ver~ real sense, the Head of huma~ ity ~nd of tile w~ole spiritual creation: .for from Him alone~do~s thd 'divine li~e ~our itself forth on angels and men, as really as animal lif~? ~s~reags' fr6m'the h~ad into every ~a[t pf our body." From Himhnd ~'flom Him alon~ proceed all supernatural acts which are d~ne 'io-heaven arid earth. We capnot acquire the least ;merit, do the least ~c~i'on,.conceive the least" thought,pronounce the least w~rd. in the supernatural order, if these different ~mov¢ments are not in-~ur hearts. *~througb~ an ~mpul~e'of His Divine~ Heart. This adorable ~art is 'for: all h~manity, in the order of grace, what ~he sun,.in ~fie physical okder, is for the earth and th~ 6ther planets which'gravitate~around it. - ~- The fact that Christ h~s, made it possibld --;_re~el~eHls o~n Bo'dyafid Blood in~the Eucfiari~t is ~an?- argument that He ifitend~d usto be divine. This union of -man~ith