KURT JANISCH'S POWER AND SEXUALITY IN ELFRIEDE JELINEK'S GREED Annisa Firdausi English Literature, Faculty of Languages and Arts, Surabaya State University firdausi.annisa19@gmail.com Drs. Much. Khoiri, M.Si English Department, Faculty of Languages and Arts, Surabaya State University much_choiri@yahoo.com Abstrak Kekuasaan sering didefinisikan sebagai kemampuan seseorang yang kuat untuk mendapatkan keinginannya atas kehendak orang yang tidak berdaya. Orang-orang yang memiliki kekuasaan dapat menggunakan kekuasaan mereka untuk mengambil keuntungan untuk mereka sendiri, mengontrol orang lain dan dapat juga memanipulasi orang lain. Orang-orang yang memiliki kekuasaan juga seringkali menggunakan kekuasaan untuk memuaskan nafsu seksual mereka. Michel Foucault (1978: 83) berpendapat bahwa jika kekuasaan hanya dilihat sebagai kemampuan untuk memiliki keinginan, atau jika konstitutif pada keinginan sendiri , untuk afirmasi: anda akan selalu dan sudah terjebak. Skripsi ini difokuskan pada kekuasaan dan seksualitas Kurt Janisch di novel Greed oleh Elfriede Jelinek. Tujuan dari penelitian ini adalah untuk menggambarkan bagaimana kekuasaan Kurt Janisch yang digambarkan dalam Greed oleh Elfriede Jelinek, dan untuk mengungkapkan bagaimana kekuasaan Kurt Janisch mempengaruhi seksualitasnya. Skripsi ini menggunakan beberapa proses analisis, yaitu: (1) mengklasifikasikan kutipan yang relevan dan sesuai dengan rumusan masalah, (2) menggambarkan kekuasaan Kurt Janisch dengan menggunakan teori five bases of power oleh John RP French dan Bertram Raven , (3) mengungkapkan bagaimana seksualitas Kurt Janisch dipengaruhi oleh kekuasaannya dengan menggunakan circles of sexuality oleh Dr Dennis M. Dailey. Akhirnya, hasil analisis menunjukkan bahwa dalam novel ini Kurt Janisch menyalahgunakan kekuasaannya. Dia menggunakan setiap kesempatan yang ada untuk memaksa orang dan mengintimidasi rekan-rekannya yang lebih muda. Dapat dikatakan bahwa ia menggunakan kekuasaannya secara paksa – itu termasuk dalam coercive power. Selain itu, perilaku Kurt Janisch dalam mengintimidasi rekan-rekannya yang lebih muda dapat diklasifikasikan sebagai legitimate power. Dia juga menggunakan jenis informational power karena ia menyembunyikan informasi yang dapat membahayakan dirinya. Dengan kekuatan yang dimilikinya, ia memaksa perempuan untuk berhubungan seks dengannya. Saat berhubungan seks dengan wanita, Kurt Janisch melakukan beberapa kekerasan seksual, pelecehan seksual kepada anak, dan perkosaan yang termasuk dalam lingkaran sexualization. Fakta-fakta tersebut adalah bukti bahwa Kurt Janisch menyalahgunakan kekuasaannya untuk mendapatkan kepuasan dalam hubungan seksual. Kata Kunci: Kekuasaan, Seksualitas, Greed, Circles of sexuality Abstract Power is often defined as the capability of someone strong to achieve his desires over the will of powerless people. Powerful people can use their power to take advantage for themselves, control people can even manipulate someone else. Powerful people also oftenly use power to satisfy their sexual appetite. Michel Foucault (1978: 83) argues that if power is seen as having only an external hold on desire, or, if it is constitutive of desire itself, to the affirmation: you are always-already trapped. This study focuses on Kurt Janisch's power and sexuality in Elfriede Jelinek's Greed. The purposes of this study are to describe how Kurt Janisch's power is depicted in Elfriede Jelinek's Greed, and to reveal how Kurt Janisch's power affects his sexuality. This study does some processes of analysis, they are: (1) classifying the relevant quotations which are in line with the problem of statements, (2) describing Kurt Janisch's power by using the theory of five bases of power by John R.P. French and Bertram Raven, (3) revealing how Kurt Janisch's sexuality is affected by his power by using Dr. Dennis M. Dailey's circles of sexuality. Eventually, the result of the analysis shows that Kurt Janisch power which is depicted in the novel is abusive. He uses every opportunity that he has to force people and intimidate his younger colleagues. It can be said that he uses his power coercively--it is the coercive power. Moreover, his behaviour in pressing his younger colleagues is classified as legitimate power. He also uses the kind of informational power because he hides informations that can harm him. With the power that he has, he forces women to have sex with him. While having sex with women, Kurt Janisch does some sexual violence, child abuse, rape and sexual harassment which are included in the sexualization circle. Those facts are proofs that Kurt Janisch is abusing his power to get his only satisfication in sexual intercourse. Keywords: Power, Sexuality, Greed, Circles of Sexuality INTRODUCTION Power is often conceptualised as the capacity of powerful agents to realise their will over the will of powerless people, and the ability to force them to do things which they do not wish to do. Power is also often seen as a possession, something which is held onto by those in power and which those who are powerless try to wrest from their control. In The History of Sexuality, Vol. I, Michel Foucault argue that if power is seen as having only an external hold on desire, or, if it is constitutive of desire itself, to the affirmation: you are always-already trapped. Moreover, one must not imagine that this representation is peculiar to those who are concerned with the problem of the relations of power with sex. (Foucault, 1978: 83). The act of using one's position of power in an abuse way is called power abuse. This can take many forms, such as taking advantage of someone, gaining access to information that shouldn'e be accesible to public, or just manipulating someone with the ability to punish them if they don't comply. Abuseis the improper usage or treatment of an entity, often to unfairlyor improperly gain benefit. Abuse can come in many forms, such as: physical or verbal maltreatment, injury, assault, violation, rape, unjust practices; crimes, or other types of aggression. Abuse of power is different from usurpation of power, which is an exercise of authority that the offender does not actually have. Sexuality is complex and spans a vast array of human experiences including family relationships, dating, sexual behavior, physical development, sensuality, sexualization, reproduction, gender, body image and more. It is a fundamental and natural part of being human, for people of all ages. Defining sexuality can be difficult, but it may help to think about Amy Schalet's description of sexuality as posted on medscape.com, "as the expression of an age-blind desire for meaningful intimacy and connection with others". Sexuality is much more than sexual feelings or sexual intercourse. It is an important part of who a person is and what she or he will become. It includes all the feelings, thoughts and behaviors of being female or male, being attractive and being in love, as well as being in relationships that include sexual intimacy and physical sexual activity. Jelinek's works are mostly concern on patriarchal hierarchies define the engines of commerce and commerce defines personal relationships, its individuals' sexuality. Besides The Piano Teacher and Women as Lovers, Greed is also regarded as one of her novels which concern on sexuality. So, this thesis will analyse Elfriede Jelinek's Greed in the terms of its sexuality. In Greed, Kurt Janisch has a big power over the country. Unfortunately, he uses his power to harm and threaten other people. Kurt Janisch is a greedy and ambitious man. He likes to have many properties. But the way he try to get it is so nasty. He uses his power as a country policeman to get properties. He is somehow uses his power abuse. At one time, he would like to have a drink without paying it. According to him, he does not need to pay the drink because he has an authority there. Kurt Janisch realizes that he has a big power. His power is, however, influence his sexuality. He would like to have sex with women in his country just to have their properties. The women, who realize that Kurt is a powerful man, can not reject his attitude. He sometimes stop a woman for speeding then have sex with her beside her car. After that, they went to her house and Kurt can have that woman's property. In accordance of background study above, it can be simplify to discuss among two problems that emerge as significant concern toward this novel. How is Kurt Janisch's power depicted in Elfriede Jelinek's Greed? How does Kurt Janisch's power affect his sexuality in Elfriede Jelinek's Greed? This study will uses two theories which are in line with the statement of the problems. The first problem is how Kurt Janisch's power depicted in Greed. This statement will use the concept of power. This concept is originally introduced developed by social pschologists named French and Raven. This concept is united and merged with the bases of social power which people use in their daily life. There are five kinds of power in this concept, they are coercive power, reward power, legitimate power, referent power and expert power. There is also an additional kind of power, which is the informational power. Then the second problem is how Kurt Janisch's power affects his sexuality. This statement will apply the concept of sexuality, especially in the circles of sexuality. This concept is developed by a man known as the pornographic professor, Dr. Dennis M. Dailey. It is about the circles of sexuality which is experienced by every human being. There are five circles, they are sensuality, sexual intimacy, sexual identity, reproduction and sexualization. RESEARCH METHOD Research methodolgy that used in this analysis here must be qualified as an applying in literary appreciation. The thesis is regarded as a descriptive-qualitative study and uses a library research. This study uses novel of Elfriede Jelinek entitled Greed that published Seven Stories Press, 140 Watts Street, New York in 2007 as the data source of this study. The datas are in the form of direct and indirect speech of the characters, dialogues, epilogues and quotations which indicate and represent aspect of power abuse and sexualization which is experienced by the main character. This thesis is using the library method in collecting the data. It does not use the statistic method. That is why it is not served in numbering or tables. Library research used an approach in analyzing this study. The kind of library research which is used here is intensive or closely reading to search quotations or phrases. It also used to analyze the literary elements both intrinsic and extrinsic. The references are taken from library and contributing ideas about this study from internet that support the idea of analyzing. The analysis is done by the following steps: (1) Classification based on the statement of the problems. This classification is used to avoid the broad discussion. There are two classifications in this study. They are the depiction of power and how it affects the sexuality. (2) Describing Kurt Janisch's power which is stated from the quotations or statements. (3) Describing how Kurt Janisch's sexuality which is stated from the quotations or statements. (4) Revealing the relations between power and sexuality. The quotations that showed how the character's sexuality is affected by his power are taken as data. (5) Drawing the conclusion based on the analysis which is in line with the problems. ANALYSIS The first section is about the describtion of Kurt Janisch's power as a country policeman. Kurt Janisch, the country policeman, is the main character in this story. For three generation, his whole family hold the power over the country. His father is a former police colonel while his son, Ernst Janisch, is employed by the Post Office as a telephone maintenance man. He attended a technical secondary school, whose graduates call themselves engineers. Being a country policeman makes Kurt Janisch hold a big power over his people. "Such a forceful, big man, who is capable of unleashing almost any kind of event." (Jelinek, 2007: 10). Kurt Janisch is described as a forceful man. This is deal with his job as a country policeman. He has quite an authority to control people in his country so he is also described as a 'big man'. He knew that he is the one who is more capable of making any decisions in his country and the people must live with his decisions. People mostly obey the figure of authority because they have been conditioned to do so. In this case, Kurt Janisch is in a position of power, so they are required to do so by law. Most citizens are afraid to disobey laws because they don't like the outcome or the embarrassment. The country policeman then uses his power to force his people. He forces everyone to get what he wants. From the way Kurt Janisch is described as a forceful man in using his power, it is shown that Kurt Janisch uses the kind of coercive power. As mentioned by French and Raven in the previous chapter, coercive power happens when a powerful man forces other people to do something they do not want to do (French and Raven, 1959: 87). In this case, Kurt Janisch forces his people (mostly women) to do sex and give him their properties. The behaviour of Kurt Janisch can be classified in coercive power because he is also 'capable of unleashing any kind of event'. It might be true that he is doing his job well by helping his people in any kind of situation. But on the other side, the word 'any kind of event' means that he can unleash people who is guilty by giving him somtehing in return. For Kurt Janisch, he only wants sex or properties. People are forced by him to do so, and they did it because they are powerless and have no other choices. Not only unleashing any kind of event, he could also 'create' event so that he would get what he wants. Kurt Janisch is sometimes also in charge of maintaining traffic order. Once in a while he stop the car and inspect it. He thinks, he will get a slight advantage from it. "The country policeman only has to take advantage of the opportunity, because in their own car everyone makes a mistake once." (Jelinek, 2007: 44). He believes that the termination of some cars, there will be some drivers who commit traffic offenses. They could be not carrying the driving license or they could even carrying drugs. If there is an offense, then he will offer them some choices. Such things like he will give him a ticket or they can give him a bribe. As a country policeman, Kurt Janisch may stop and search any person or vehicle for stolen or prohibited things. Generally weapons such as knives and guns that are made or adapted for use in accordance with certain offences which include fraud, criminal damage, theft, burglary and taking a motor vehicle without authority. But a police officer cannot simply stop and search anybody he likes. In this case, Kurt Janisch has proven that he is abusing his power. He stop and search without any reasonable grounds and he even take advantages from it. He can do this just because he has a warrant card which he shows them everytime he do stop and search. It makes people do not dare to reject him. Since Kurt Janisch has a greedy nature, he uses any ways to satisfy his ever-increasing demands. Because he is a country policeman, then he can use his power to fulfill his greediness. One of his ways is force women to give him properties. "His fingers are itching to angrily beat the woman if she doesn't want to give up her house voluntarily," (Jelinek, 2007: 278). There is no word 'to give up' in the Kurt Janisch's dictionary in getting properties. Therefore he does not hesitate to use violence to get it. In this sentence, it can be seen that Kurt Janisch had thought that he would hit the woman if she refused to give her home. However, he also forced her to hand it over voluntarily. It does not matter whether she is really voluntary or not. The important thing to him is that people know that she gave her house voluntarily. The forcing behaviour that Kurt Janisch did in getting a house can be classified in coercive power. He uses his power to force someone to do what he wants. He did not hesitate to commit coercion because he knew that he is powerful. Therefore, the people will not dare to report him. This action can also be called as an abuse of power. The effect of abuse of powerin the government is that the citizens suffer. When the government abuses their power, the society cannot benefit as it properly should because those in position to help are not staying within the realm of their job. Kurt Janisch is not only misusing his power to his people in his district. People in his office also admitted that he is quite powerful. "He is otherwise something of a disrespectful man, the country policeman, and so he demands all the more respect from the young recruits." (Jelinek, 2007: 195). Kurt Janisch is always look nice and warm in front of the women. But to his co-workers, he is described as a disrespectful man. He likes to putting someone down, trying to make them feel low and treating someone in a horrible manner. Sometimes he is also showing his co-workers that they mean less than nothing to him. He is both rude and ignorant towards another persons feeling. This behaviour is shown by Kurt Janisch mostly to the young recruits. He asked them to show him more respects. While in fact, he does not respect them as much as they do. He thinks that it should be the way, since he is a senior and they were just a young recruiter. What Kurt Janisch does to his young recruiters is included to legitimate power category. A leader who has ability to control other people's feeling by giving them rewards or punishment is a kind of leader in legitimate power. They can give them rewards or punishment to anyone. They also can do anything to them as punishment. The subordinates have no right to reject the rewards or punishments which the leader gives. According to French and Raven in this legitimate power theory, Kurt Janisch's subordinates will only obey him as a country policeman not spesifically in person. This power is therefore not strong enough to be Kurt Janisch's only form of influencing or persuading. Even so, he keeps doing it. For him, it is a matter of pride. "he will take every opportunity to press up against younger colleagues, to pass his hands over their hips and to let them properly feel his little fellow," (Jelinek, 2007: 298). From the sentence above, we can see that Kurt Janisch is sometimes does not hesitate to commit physical violence against his younger colleagues. Once his younger colleagues are making mistakes, he would give them some lessons rudely. He treated them that way in order to make sure that the will not do the same mistake twice. But somehow he became too far. It is shown that he would use every opportunity he has to press up his younger colleagues. However, he press up his colleagues violently. He put his hands around their hips and punch it. He punches them quite strong so they can feel how dissappointed he is. He thinks, if he do it that way, they will learn something. Kurt Janisch is granted many powers in order to keep the peace and protect the general public. There are, of course, limits on his behaviour and if people feel he has used unlawful practices, they should contact a lawyer for legal advice. But Kurt Janisch does not get any complaints for all his behaviors which are beyond the limits. "They have the power to make people disappear without trace forever." (Jelinek, 2007: 261). In addition to maintaining security and protecting the public, Kurt Janisch also sometimes assigned as an investigator. He admitted that policemen have a big power in almost everything. It is shown in the sentence above that they can make people disappear without any trace left. It means that he could kill people and no one will know that he is the culprit. He could use his power as an investigator to throw all the evidences. So people would not know how the victim died and who did it forever. For this, Kurt Janisch uses his power as informational power. He holds an information and he manipulated it to his people. Informational power is based on the potential to use information. Providing rational arguments, using information to persuade others, using facts and manipulating information can create a power base. In this case, Kurt Janisch is keeping the information secretly and even organizing it neatly as if nothing happened. Then, the second section will show the effects of power in Kurt Jansich's sexuality in the novel. Sexuality is also become the main idea in this novel. The country policeman is already married, but his sexual life with his wife does not appear much in this novel. However, his sexual life with other women is much exposed. It is so much easier for him to get any women when he comes in as a figure of authority. "These female proceedings have to be conducted and intimately handled, even if what the Janischs do is not described like that. They combine the pleasing with the useful." (Jelinek, 2007: 26). Everytime Kurt Janisch helps women, he proceeded them 'differently'. Not only him, but his son is also joining him in handling the women. People believed that both of them are treated them unfairly. However, the Janischs have their own argument. They think of it as give-and-take. Whenever they help women, those women have to please them. Kurt Janisch is the one who is quite influential here. He uses his power to manipulate women in his sexual experiences. His act of control and influence women unfairly means that he is in a sexualization cycle. In this cycle, people can do things like flirting or even rape to get what they want. It can cause the women to feel shame and humiliation, but since he is a country policeman, they can not do nothing about it. "What interests the country policeman about women also lies more below the waistline," (Jelinek, 2007: 199). Kurt Janisch is really do not care anything else when his lust is appearing. He's not interested in what she says. He's interested in what she has. More importantly, he is very interested in the women's organ right under their waistline. He thinks that if he can control their vagina, he can control her completely. He knows that once a lonely woman has been satisfied, he will get what he wants more easily. People in various professional and institutional settings endure many forms of unwanted sexual acts that are perpetrated against them by people in positions of power. These perpetrators abuse their power, authority, trust, influence, and dependence to obtain sexual intercourse. (Buchhandler and Raphael, 2010: 3). The act that Kurt Janish has been done is somewhat an act of disrespectful through women. Women needs to be taken care and be loved. Men are using sex instrumentally in order to obtain and retain power over women. An evolutionary perspective does not deny the linkage between power and sex but suggests that the direction of causation is misperceived. Rather than men using sex to obtain power, it is much more accurate to say that they use power to obtain sex. (Browne, 2006: 147). Even they are being treated harshly and disrespectful, these women did not protest or report. Most of them are even delighted that they can have sex with a country policeman. "Two legs spread, for him alone, just like that, and a whole house puts in an appearance right in the middle." (Jelinek, 2007: 117). It is easy for Kurt Janisch to get what he wants. With the power that he has, he only needs two legs spread, like it is stated on the sentence. It means that he can conquer and persuade women to have sex with him. Once the women were already conquered, then they will give him whatever he wants. This makes Kurt Janisch addicted. When he realized that he could get what he wants so easily, then he will do it continously. However, to get two legs spread, Kurt Janisch is forcing them to do so. This behaviour can be classified in the coercive power. It is so, because Kurt Janisch is forcing the women to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation and threats. Coercion is one method by which a powerful agent can exercise and maintain his dominance over another. When one has the power needed to credibly threaten another, one can use that power to impose one's will on her regarding many choices. In law, coercion is classified as a threat crime. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in a way contrary to their own interests. Coercion may involve the actual infliction of physical pain or psychological harm. This act of coercion that has been done by Kurt Janisch in sex can also be called as the act of rape. Often those men who see women as sex objects and as inherently inferior to men are more likely to commit to rape. Men who hold these beliefs think that they are entitled to control women's sexuality, and to determine what a woman really wants. Such men also think they are entitled to shape women's sexual and nonsexual behavior, and to decide what is acceptable or unacceptable. Therefore, women should meet male needs on demand, men are entitled to force their desires onto women, and therefore, men are entitled to rape women. (Lowell, 2010: 160). Sexual abuse of power, like rape, constitutes serious harms to victims precisely because it typically violates these rights. The right to remain free from sexual coercion stands at the basis of these violations: sexual coercion occurs whenever a person engages in unilateral sexual acts with another person, by exploiting that other person's body for the purposes of his own gratification, arousal or one–sided sexual pleasure, against the will of that other person. A little blood is coming from her vagina. What has he stuck in there this time, bigger than a slap in the face, smaller than a tractor? Perhaps the neck of the beer bottle? (Jelinek, 2007: 82) Not only described as a forceful man when it comes to sex, but he is also described as a crude person. It is stated in the sentence above that after having sex with a girl, a little blood is coming from her vagina. She also feels a great painful when she woke up. She wonders why is that happen. It was not the first time she has sex, so it is obviously not a virgin blood. It can happen because of two things. Either she was on her period or Kurt Janisch was hardly forces his cock into her vagina. From the sentence, the right answer is the second one. She is wondering what he stuck in her vagina. The pain feels more painful than a slap in the face. She presumes that he inserted the neck of the beer bottle which is very hard and painful. This is also the act of sexual assault that has been done by Kurt Janisch. it is the act of having intercourse while doing a physical violence or using a tool. It can cause a great painful, a wound and even a fatal injury. Sexual assault can also included in case of rape because Kurt Janisch forces his cock that cause her to feel great pain in her vagina. This time, he uses his overpowering strength to the woman. It is classified in the sexualization cycle because he once again use his power to manipulate and harm his victim. Like the other victims, this woman is afraid to report him to the police officer. Eventhough she dares to report him, Kurt Janisch will take care of the case. He is also capable to remove all the evidences so that her accusation will not be proceed. As a figure of authority, Kurt Janisch has done too many crimes in his country. Not only raping, but he also done such act like sexual violence. He is surely has a sexual problem. "he's blowing his trumpet into such a young girl, she's no more than a child," (Jelinek, 2007: 83). Not enough with raping and sexual violence, he also dare to do a child abuse. It seems like his candidate for intercourse is not only adult women, but also a child. Through the statement above, we know that Kurt Janisch has an intercourse with a young girl who is described as no more than a child. This action can also be classified as raping. It was told in the story, an adult woman who has had sex with Kurt Janisch saw him having sex with a young girl. She was jealous and claimed that his trumpet is should be hers. Although Kurt Janisch has too many crimes, many women are still go after him. They all want to be treated by the country policeman. The fact that many women are after him, it makes him feels like he can own and control them. Moreover, he can control them because he is a country policeman. He did almost every crime in sexuality, like flirting, raping and even seduction. But his crimes are never been reported. His crimes are all covered by himself. He handles his own crime so nobody can jailed him. He is the one who can send people to jail and he obviously does not want to send himself. This is the power of authority, after one can control and manipulate someone, than everything can be done. Kurt Janisch has chosen to use his power to satisfy his need: sex. When his desire of sex is flaming, he would easily pick any woman to have sex with. His sexuality has become more complex lately. He would not care who the woman is, or does the woman wants it or not, he will just do it. "The age of the children is unimportant, they can be almost sixteen like Gabi," (Jelinek, 2007: 128). It gets worsen when he started to choose a young girl as a place to release his lust. It turns out that he did not do it once. He chose Gabi, who is almost sixteen to be his victim. Kurt Janisch admitted that he does not care about her age, evethough he knows that she was almost sixteen which means that she is still under age. All he cares about is just he has some place to release his lust, so any women will do. Kurt Janisch is now got into a serious problem. His act of raping a girl under age can be classified as child sexual abuse. Child sexual abuse is fundamentally an act of violation, power and domination. The sexual abuser's power, knowledge and resources are far greater thatn those of the child. So the abuser exploits this power difference to take advantage of the child. Children are dependent upon adults for their survival and for affection and understanding of the world. Kurt Janisch thinks that asking a girl who is in her puberty to have sex would be very easy. Girls that age are still fragile and tey can be easily manipulated. In this case, the one who manipulated her is someone who holds a big power over the country. This girl, who is known as Gabi, is just under sixteen. She is still innocent and easily trust any adults. That is why Kurt Janisch uses any tactics to get her. He gives her attention and gifts, manipulate and even threaten her. Gabi trusted him since he is the country policeman. But she never knew that he only wants her virginity. Kurt Janisch has done something terrible to Gabi. Girls at age 16 are emotionally unstable. He does not think that what he has done to her gave a big impacts in her life. Gabi does not want to let him go. She believed that she and Kurt Janisch has become a couple. But Kurt Janisch who only uses her as a relief from Gerti. He does not want that kind of relationship, so he dump her. Gabi becomes very depressed and aggressive. She still wants to be with him. However, she can not reported what Kurt Janisch has done to her. She was afraid to tell anyone. Besides, it was a shameful experience for her. So she just keep it to herself. CONCLUSION The conclusion is divided into two in accordance to the statement of problems. From the analysis that has been done, it can be conclude in the first conclusion that Kurt Janisch has a great power in the country. He is described as a forceful man because he oftenly forced people to do domething that he wants. People mostly obey him because they have been conditioned to obey the powerful people. Otherwise, people who disobey them will get a punishment. As a man who has power in his country, he tries to get any advantages he might get. He is powerful enough to get anything he wants from his people. He is described as a powerful man because he can unleash any kind of events. However, his way to unleashing any kind of events is by forcing people to have a sexual intercourse with him, otherwise, their driver's license will be taken. Whenever he has an opportunity to take advantages, he would go for it. He will make an entrance as a figure of authority. He even forces people in a bar to give him free drinks because he said that he is on duty. While he is on duty as a traffic cop, he would also like to take advantages from the women drivers. He knows that women drivers are mostly make mistakes. So there he goes, stop and search them, threaten them and finaly forces them to give him what he wants. Kurt Janisch's act of forcing people can be classified in coercive power. It can be seen that he oftenly forces people to do what they do not want to do. Besides using the coercive power, Kurt Janisch is sometimes also use the legitimate power. It is shown when he deliberately pressing up and beat his younger colleagues when they do mistakes and do notwant to obey him. He likes to show his seniority against his juniors in the police office. He wants to be respected, but he does not want to respect his colleagues. Kurt Janisch who is sometimes also in charge of search team uses the kind of informational power. He thinks that country policemen also have power to make people disappear without any trace left. He has the capability to hid and manipulate the information he gets to protect himself from any harm. That is why the crimes that Kurt Janisch's done are never been proceed in the court. So, Kurt Janisch's power that is described in this novel are very big. It can be said that Kurt Janisch is abusing his power. The second conclusion is about how Kurt Janisch power affects his sexuality. In the analysis chapter, it can be seen that Kurt Janisch likes to controlling another person in many cases. He also applied this act to have sex with women whom he forced. He likes to help women with their problems and ask them to have sex with him in return. The women can not refuse because they know that they are forced by someone with enormous power in their country. Since then, Kurt Janisch likes rough sex. He oftenly hitting the victim of both on the face and the mouth. This is the act of sexual violence. Then he also hurt the sex organs of a woman because he put his penis too hard. It causes the woman's vagina bleeding hard. In addition, he also did verbal violence by telling the women that they are just toys for Kurt Janisch which can be played at his will. The harshest thing that he did is child abuse. He raped an under-age girl named Gerti and Gabi and cause Gerti to commit suicide. All of his victims do not do any resistance. They have been threatened by Kurt Janisch to keep it. If they leak it, they will bear the severe consequences. Kurt Janisch can do violence to his victims because he feels that he is a powerful person. He can rule in all respects, including in sexual intercourse. In this case, he will not care about the effects that would arise from the sexual violence he was doing. The act of rape, sexual violence and sexual abuse can be classified in a circle sexualization. Sexualization is using sex or sexuality to influence, manipulate or control other people. So, with the power that he has, Kurt Janisch can easily rape any women and he likes to do rough sex. REFERENCE An Explanation of the Circles of Sexuality. Advocates for Youth. 2007. Web. November 27, 2013. Barnett, Jordan. Kaplan's Triphasic Model. Sex Wiki. April 11, 2011. Web. December 25, 2013. Browne, Kingsley R. Sex, Power, and Dominance: The Evolutionary Psychology of Sexual Harassment. Detroit: Wiley InterScience, 2006. Buchhandler, Michal and Raphael. Sexual Abuse of Power. Selected Works. March 2010. Web. April 15, 2014. http://works.bepress.com/michal_buchhandler_raphael/9 Foucault, Michel. The History of Sexuality, Vol. I. New York: Pantheon Books, 1978. French, and Raven. The Bases of Social Power. Michigan: University of Michigan Press, 1959. Hutchinson, Paul L. and Gage, Anastasia J. Power, Control, and Intimate Partner Sexual Violence in Haiti. Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 35, No. 1, 2006. Jelinek, Elfriede. Greed. New York: Seven Stories Press, 2007. Lowell, Gary. A Review of Rape Statistics, Theories, and Policy. Undergraduate Review, 6, 158-163. 2010. Schalet, Amy. Must We Fear Adolscent Sexuality?. Medscape Multispecialty. December 30, 2004. Web. December 18, 2013. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/494933 Wrobel, Szymon. Power, Subject and the Concept of Rational Action, in: A Decade of Transformation, IWM Junior Visiting Fellows Conferences, Vol. 8: Vienna, 1999.
BACKGROUND:Achieving universal health coverage (UHC) involves all people receiving the health services they need, of high quality, without experiencing financial hardship. Making progress towards UHC is a policy priority for both countries and global institutions, as highlighted by the agenda of the UN Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) and WHO's Thirteenth General Programme of Work (GPW13). Measuring effective coverage at the health-system level is important for understanding whether health services are aligned with countries' health profiles and are of sufficient quality to produce health gains for populations of all ages. METHODS:Based on the Global Burden of Diseases, Injuries, and Risk Factors Study (GBD) 2019, we assessed UHC effective coverage for 204 countries and territories from 1990 to 2019. Drawing from a measurement framework developed through WHO's GPW13 consultation, we mapped 23 effective coverage indicators to a matrix representing health service types (eg, promotion, prevention, and treatment) and five population-age groups spanning from reproductive and newborn to older adults (≥65 years). Effective coverage indicators were based on intervention coverage or outcome-based measures such as mortality-to-incidence ratios to approximate access to quality care; outcome-based measures were transformed to values on a scale of 0-100 based on the 2·5th and 97·5th percentile of location-year values. We constructed the UHC effective coverage index by weighting each effective coverage indicator relative to its associated potential health gains, as measured by disability-adjusted life-years for each location-year and population-age group. For three tests of validity (content, known-groups, and convergent), UHC effective coverage index performance was generally better than that of other UHC service coverage indices from WHO (ie, the current metric for SDG indicator 3.8.1 on UHC service coverage), the World Bank, and GBD 2017. We quantified frontiers of UHC effective coverage performance on the basis of pooled health spending per capita, representing UHC effective coverage index levels achieved in 2019 relative to country-level government health spending, prepaid private expenditures, and development assistance for health. To assess current trajectories towards the GPW13 UHC billion target-1 billion more people benefiting from UHC by 2023-we estimated additional population equivalents with UHC effective coverage from 2018 to 2023. FINDINGS:Globally, performance on the UHC effective coverage index improved from 45·8 (95% uncertainty interval 44·2-47·5) in 1990 to 60·3 (58·7-61·9) in 2019, yet country-level UHC effective coverage in 2019 still spanned from 95 or higher in Japan and Iceland to lower than 25 in Somalia and the Central African Republic. Since 2010, sub-Saharan Africa showed accelerated gains on the UHC effective coverage index (at an average increase of 2·6% [1·9-3·3] per year up to 2019); by contrast, most other GBD super-regions had slowed rates of progress in 2010-2019 relative to 1990-2010. Many countries showed lagging performance on effective coverage indicators for non-communicable diseases relative to those for communicable diseases and maternal and child health, despite non-communicable diseases accounting for a greater proportion of potential health gains in 2019, suggesting that many health systems are not keeping pace with the rising non-communicable disease burden and associated population health needs. In 2019, the UHC effective coverage index was associated with pooled health spending per capita (r=0·79), although countries across the development spectrum had much lower UHC effective coverage than is potentially achievable relative to their health spending. Under maximum efficiency of translating health spending into UHC effective coverage performance, countries would need to reach $1398 pooled health spending per capita (US$ adjusted for purchasing power parity) in order to achieve 80 on the UHC effective coverage index. From 2018 to 2023, an estimated 388·9 million (358·6-421·3) more population equivalents would have UHC effective coverage, falling well short of the GPW13 target of 1 billion more people benefiting from UHC during this time. Current projections point to an estimated 3·1 billion (3·0-3·2) population equivalents still lacking UHC effective coverage in 2023, with nearly a third (968·1 million [903·5-1040·3]) residing in south Asia. INTERPRETATION:The present study demonstrates the utility of measuring effective coverage and its role in supporting improved health outcomes for all people-the ultimate goal of UHC and its achievement. Global ambitions to accelerate progress on UHC service coverage are increasingly unlikely unless concerted action on non-communicable diseases occurs and countries can better translate health spending into improved performance. Focusing on effective coverage and accounting for the world's evolving health needs lays the groundwork for better understanding how close-or how far-all populations are in benefiting from UHC. FUNDING:Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.
Publisher's version (útgefin grein) ; Background Achieving universal health coverage (UHC) involves all people receiving the health services they need, of high quality, without experiencing financial hardship. Making progress towards UHC is a policy priority for both countries and global institutions, as highlighted by the agenda of the UN Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) and WHO's Thirteenth General Programme of Work (GPW13). Measuring effective coverage at the health-system level is important for understanding whether health services are aligned with countries' health profiles and are of sufficient quality to produce health gains for populations of all ages. Methods Based on the Global Burden of Diseases, Injuries, and Risk Factors Study (GBD) 2019, we assessed UHC effective coverage for 204 countries and territories from 1990 to 2019. Drawing from a measurement framework developed through WHO's GPW13 consultation, we mapped 23 effective coverage indicators to a matrix representing health service types (eg, promotion, prevention, and treatment) and five population-age groups spanning from reproductive and newborn to older adults (>= 65 years). Effective coverage indicators were based on intervention coverage or outcome-based measures such as mortality-to-incidence ratios to approximate access to quality care; outcome-based measures were transformed to values on a scale of 0-100 based on the 2.5th and 97.5th percentile of location-year values. We constructed the UHC effective coverage index by weighting each effective coverage indicator relative to its associated potential health gains, as measured by disability-adjusted life-years for each location-year and population-age group. For three tests of validity (content, known-groups, and convergent), UHC effective coverage index performance was generally better than that of other UHC service coverage indices from WHO (ie, the current metric for SDG indicator 3.8.1 on UHC service coverage), the World Bank, and GBD 2017. We quantified frontiers of UHC effective coverage performance on the basis of pooled health spending per capita, representing UHC effective coverage index levels achieved in 2019 relative to country-level government health spending, prepaid private expenditures, and development assistance for health. To assess current trajectories towards the GPW13 UHC billion target-1 billion more people benefiting from UHC by 2023-we estimated additional population equivalents with UHC effective coverage from 2018 to 2023. Findings Globally, performance on the UHC effective coverage index improved from 45.8 (95% uncertainty interval 44.2-47.5) in 1990 to 60.3 (58.7-61.9) in 2019, yet country-level UHC effective coverage in 2019 still spanned from 95 or higher in Japan and Iceland to lower than 25 in Somalia and the Central African Republic. Since 2010, sub-Saharan Africa showed accelerated gains on the UHC effective coverage index (at an average increase of 2.6% [1.9-3.3] per year up to 2019); by contrast, most other GBD super-regions had slowed rates of progress in 2010-2019 relative to 1990-2010. Many countries showed lagging performance on effective coverage indicators for non-communicable diseases relative to those for communicable diseases and maternal and child health, despite non-communicable diseases accounting for a greater proportion of potential health gains in 2019, suggesting that many health systems are not keeping pace with the rising non-communicable disease burden and associated population health needs. In 2019, the UHC effective coverage index was associated with pooled health spending per capita (r=0.79), although countries across the development spectrum had much lower UHC effective coverage than is potentially achievable relative to their health spending. Under maximum efficiency of translating health spending into UHC effective coverage performance, countries would need to reach $1398 pooled health spending per capita (US$ adjusted for purchasing power parity) in order to achieve 80 on the UHC effective coverage index. From 2018 to 2023, an estimated 388.9 million (358.6-421.3) more population equivalents would have UHC effective coverage, falling well short of the GPW13 target of 1 billion more people benefiting from UHC during this time. Current projections point to an estimated 3.1 billion (3.0-3.2) population equivalents still lacking UHC effective coverage in 2023, with nearly a third (968.1 million [903.5-1040.3]) residing in south Asia. Interpretation The present study demonstrates the utility of measuring effective coverage and its role in supporting improved health outcomes for all people-the ultimate goal of UHC and its achievement. Global ambitions to accelerate progress on UHC service coverage are increasingly unlikely unless concerted action on non-communicable diseases occurs and countries can better translate health spending into improved performance. Focusing on effective coverage and accounting for the world's evolving health needs lays the groundwork for better understanding how close-or how far-all populations are in benefiting from UHC. ; Lucas Guimaraes Abreu acknowledges support from Coordenacao de Aperfeicoamento de Pessoal de Nivel Superior -Brasil (Capes) -Finance Code 001, Conselho Nacional de Desenvolvimento Cientifico e Tecnologico (CNPq) and Fundacao de Amparo a Pesquisa do Estado de Minas Gerais (FAPEMIG). Olatunji O Adetokunboh acknowledges South African Department of Science & Innovation, and National Research Foundation. Anurag Agrawal acknowledges support from the Wellcome Trust DBT India Alliance Senior Fellowship IA/CPHS/14/1/501489. Rufus Olusola Akinyemi acknowledges Grant U01HG010273 from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) as part of the H3Africa Consortium. Rufus Olusola Akinyemi is further supported by the FLAIR fellowship funded by the UK Royal Society and the African Academy of Sciences. Syed Mohamed Aljunid acknowledges the Department of Health Policy and Management, Faculty of Public Health, Kuwait University and International Centre for Casemix and Clinical Coding, Faculty of Medicine, National University of Malaysia for the approval and support to participate in this research project. Marcel Ausloos, Claudiu Herteliu, and Adrian Pana acknowledge partial support by a grant of the Romanian National Authority for Scientific Research and Innovation, CNDSUEFISCDI, project number PN-III-P4-ID-PCCF-2016-0084. Till Winfried Barnighausen acknowledges support from the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation through the Alexander von Humboldt Professor award, funded by the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research. Juan J Carrero was supported by the Swedish Research Council (2019-01059). Felix Carvalho acknowledges UID/MULTI/04378/2019 and UID/QUI/50006/2019 support with funding from FCT/MCTES through national funds. Vera Marisa Costa acknowledges support from grant (SFRH/BHD/110001/2015), received by Portuguese national funds through Fundacao para a Ciencia e a Tecnologia (FCT), IP, under the Norma TransitA3ria DL57/2016/CP1334/CT0006. Jan-Walter De Neve acknowledges support from the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation. Kebede Deribe acknowledges support by Wellcome Trust grant number 201900/Z/16/Z as part of his International Intermediate Fellowship. Claudiu Herteliu acknowledges partial support by a grant co-funded by European Fund for Regional Development through Operational Program for Competitiveness, Project ID P_40_382. Praveen Hoogar acknowledges the Centre for Bio Cultural Studies (CBiCS), Manipal Academy of Higher Education(MAHE), Manipal and Centre for Holistic Development and Research (CHDR), Kalghatgi. Bing-Fang Hwang acknowledges support from China Medical University (CMU108-MF-95), Taichung, Taiwan. Mihajlo Jakovljevic acknowledges the Serbian part of this GBD contribution was co-funded through the Grant OI175014 of the Ministry of Education Science and Technological Development of the Republic of Serbia. Aruna M Kamath acknowledges funding from the National Institutes of Health T32 grant (T32GM086270). Srinivasa Vittal Katikireddi acknowledges funding from the Medical Research Council (MC_UU_12017/13 & MC_UU_12017/15), Scottish Government Chief Scientist Office (SPHSU13 & SPHSU15) and an NRS Senior Clinical Fellowship (SCAF/15/02). Yun Jin Kim acknowledges support from the Research Management Centre, Xiamen University Malaysia (XMUMRF/2018-C2/ITCM/0001). Kewal Krishan acknowledges support from the DST PURSE grant and UGC Center of Advanced Study (CAS II) awarded to the Department of Anthropology, Panjab University, Chandigarh, India. Manasi Kumar acknowledges support from K43 TW010716 Fogarty International Center/NIMH. Ben Lacey acknowledges support from the NIHR Oxford Biomedical Research Centre and the BHF Centre of Research Excellence, Oxford. Ivan Landires is a member of the Sistema Nacional de InvestigaciA3n (SNI), which is supported by the Secretaria Nacional de Ciencia Tecnologia e Innovacion (SENACYT), Panama. Jeffrey V Lazarus acknowledges support by a Spanish Ministry of Science, Innovation and Universities Miguel Servet grant (Instituto de Salud Carlos III/ESF, European Union [CP18/00074]). Peter T N Memiah acknowledges CODESRIA; HISTP. Subas Neupane acknowledges partial support from the Competitive State Research Financing of the Expert Responsibility area of Tampere University Hospital. Shuhei Nomura acknowledges support from the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science, and Technology of Japan (18K10082). Alberto Ortiz acknowledges support by ISCIII PI19/00815, DTS18/00032, ISCIII-RETIC REDinREN RD016/0009 Fondos FEDER, FRIAT, Comunidad de Madrid B2017/BMD-3686 CIFRA2-CM. These funding sources had no role in the writing of the manuscript or the decision to submit it for publication. George C Patton acknowledges support from a National Health & Medical Research Council Fellowship. Marina Pinheiro acknowledges support from FCT for funding through program DL 57/2016 -Norma transitA3ria. Alberto Raggi, David Sattin, and Silvia Schiavolin acknowledge support by a grant from the Italian Ministry of Health (Ricerca Corrente, Fondazione Istituto Neurologico C Besta, Linea 4 -Outcome Research: dagli Indicatori alle Raccomandazioni Cliniche). Daniel Cury Ribeiro acknowledges support from the Sir Charles Hercus Health Research Fellowship -Health Research Council of New Zealand (18/111). Perminder S Sachdev acknowledges funding from the NHMRC Australia. Abdallah M Samy acknowledges support from a fellowship from the Egyptian Fulbright Mission Program. Milena M Santric-Milicevic acknowledges support from the Ministry of Education, Science and Technological Development of the Republic of Serbia (Contract No. 175087). Rodrigo Sarmiento-Suarez acknowledges institutional support from University of Applied and Environmental Sciences in Bogota, Colombia, and Carlos III Institute of Health in Madrid, Spain. Maria Ines Schmidt acknowledges grants from the Foundation for the Support of Research of the State of Rio Grande do Sul (IATS and PrInt) and the Brazilian Ministry of Health. Sheikh Mohammed Shariful Islam acknowledges a fellowship from the National Heart Foundation of Australia and Deakin University. Aziz Sheikh acknowledges support from Health Data Research UK. Kenji Shibuya acknowledges Japan Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology. Joan B Soriano acknowledges support by Centro de Investigacion en Red de Enfermedades Respiratorias (CIBERES), Instituto de Salud Carlos III (ISCIII), Madrid, Spain. Rafael Tabares-Seisdedos acknowledges partial support from grant PI17/00719 from ISCIII-FEDER. Santosh Kumar Tadakamadla acknowledges support from the National Health and Medical Research Council Early Career Fellowship, Australia. Marcello Tonelli acknowledges the David Freeze Chair in Health Services Research at the University of Calgary, AB, Canada. ; "Peer Reviewed"
Transcript of an oral history interview with Priscilla Dole Hatch, conducted by Sarah Yahm on 11 June 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. The bulk of her interview focuses on Priscilla Dole Hatch's family and their long-standing relationship with Norwich University; also discussed are her experiences as an elementary school teacher and her memories of Northfield, Vermont. ; 1 Priscilla Dole Hatch, Oral History Interview June 11, 2015 Interviewed by Sarah Yahm SARAH YAHM: Hmm. Well, we'll keep trying. This may not work. We might need to reschedule but we're going to give it a shot. I've been having some trouble with my equipment. Um, okay, so you've been here for eighty-something years? PRISCILLA DOLE HATCH: Eighty years actually. SY: Eighty years. Was this the house you were born in? PH: No. No. When my family bought this house when I was four years old. SY: Wow. But you were born in Northfield. PH: Born in Northfield. SY: And where was your, what house were you born in? Where was your original house? PH: The house up on, um, the corner of Stagecoach and Route Twelve. SY: Wow. PH: Right across from the library. SY: Okay. So, you've seen a lot of big changes in your lifetime. PH: Oh, yes. SY: Yeah. So, I guess I'm wondering, so your family has a long-standing history with the University. Right? Could you talk about that relationship a little bit? PH: Okay. Which one? My grandfather? SY: Both. PH: Both of them. Okay. My grandfather Dole, Charles Dole, was acting president for two years. It was at a time when Norwich was having financial difficulties. So, he used his own money to pay the instructors. Of course, there were fewer instructors then than there are now but, um, he did that and then he had, four boys went to Norwich, his four sons. And then he had two brothers I believe that went to Norwich, at least one, maybe two. And then, my other grandfather, Ira Holden, he went to Norwich, I think, two years, because he liked to play football. That was the 2 reason. But then he had to go back and work on the farm. So, he only stayed in for two years. SY: So, I'm wondering, okay, so you were born in Northfield. You grew up here but I'm wondering what your first memory is. PH: My first memory. I don't know if it's from pictures or really a memory but I remember living on Cross Street. And it was a duplex house. We had a family living beside us. Excuse me. We had a family living beside us and there were two boys in the house. And they were, we all played together and had a good time. And let me tell you what I did. Uh oh. One day, I decided to take a walk and I was three, I think. So, I, my mother discovered that I was gone. And so, she started looking for me and they were digging a cesspool line all the way down Vine Street at that time. Of course, they're pretty deep. So, she went the whole length of the cesspool trying to find me. She thought I was fallen in there. Anyway, in the meantime, I had walked down Vine Street but didn't fall in the sewer, walked down Vine Street and then I went down over the bank, walked the tracks until I got into town, into the depot. And then, I went across the, I went across to, um, East Street. Now, I went to visit my mother's hairdresser. That was my point of travel. So, she, of course, was just about crazy and she went to, she finally got the telephone call from her friend, saying, "I have a little girl down here. She walked in just a little while ago." P.S. then, when I got home, I was put on a rope and I was able to, it was on a run and I could, I could move around that way. But I had to stay on that. The little boy next door, the reason I mention him, the little boy next door came running into the house one day, that day, and he said to my mother, "Don't worry, Mrs. Dole. Don't worry, Mrs. Dole. She's all right. I let her go." (Laughs.) SY: Uh oh. PH He thought was, that's pretty much, that's the first big memory I have. SY: How old were you when that happened? PH: About three. SY: About three, oh. So, that was a young memory. PH: I was young. Yes. SY: So, what was Northfield like as a kid? What were your favorite places? What did you do? Where'd you go? PH: Well, we had the, we had the concerts down on the common. We used to go to that in the summer. My father played in the cornet band and as he did at Norwich too. And, oh dear, what else did we do? We didn't have a lot. I mean, we just pretty 3 much played together as kids. My father worked in the post office. And so, he was busy all the time. We didn't have long vacations or anything like that. We pretty much lived at home. And then, I used to go up to my grandmother's, up on Twelve A and they had a farm. And that was when I really had fun, up there too. That was great, great sport. SY: What would you do? PH: Well, if you were really good, you were allowed to ride the hay, what do you call it? SY: Wagon? PH: Wagon! Thank you. The hay wagon, back from the field, when my grandfather was, you couldn't ride it when there was any hay on it. He was too nervous about that. But you could ride once. You could ride down. And so, we used to do that and in the summer, once in a while, I could take a friend and go up there. Then, in the winter, we used to go up to the sugar house because he made maple syrup. You went up over the tracks there and up on the hill behind the, I don't know how to describe that, um, he had a bridge that went across Dog River there and that he had built himself. And then, because he had to take horses upwards to draw the sap. Anyway, he had the sugar house up there and I was allowed to go up there. We would take an egg, one egg with us and it had to be a raw egg. We took that up. He'd put it in the sap. And then, come lunchtime, we had a hard-boiled egg that was cooked in the sap. SY: Oh! Did it have a maple-y taste? PH: Just a tinge. And if it didn't, we thought it did. (Laughs.) SY: Of course, it doesn't matter if it did for real. Yeah. PH: Right. SY: Absolutely. So, I'm wondering what your impressions were of Norwich were as a kid. Did you have much interactions with the cadets? Did you ever get on campus? Do you have any memories? PH: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Of course, they were always around. They had more freedom then. They were off campus more. Once we moved here, I don't know how it always happened but they used to come here and, you know, they'd get sick of campus food and they'd come over and have dinner or something like that. My father was acquainted with quite a few of them. And so, you know, I'm just talking three or four, something like that. But they, this kind of got to be their second home. 4 SY: And how did your father know them? Just through the post office or because he was an alum? PH: No. I think through the Masons. He was a Mason and they were learning to be Masons. So, they'd come over here and study, study the, whatever it is. Then, of course, they'd stay for dinner. I can remember my mother making homemade English muffins. They were so good. They would sit down and have those and coffee after their lessons. And they would come. It was interesting. They just seemed to be glad to have a home atmosphere and feel like they could come over whenever they want. Sit on the porch or what have you. So, I knew quite a few of them that way. Of course, we used to go the football games and the basketball games. Then, when I got older, I knew a few of them. Let's see. What did we do when I was older? I dated some of them. SY: Yes. So, you did. You dated indecipherable. So, what did that mean? Going to the balls? PH: I did. Some. Mm hmm. Went to the ball and to the fraternities. They had the fraternities there. We would have parties. One of the boys that I met that I really thought a lot of, after graduation, he came back to visit. On the way back, he was going to grad school in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And on the way back, he was on a flight that went down. So, he was killed unfortunately. Great, great, great cadet. Really nice, nice young man. Anyway, uh. SY: That's very sad. PH: Pardon me? SY: That's very sad. PH: It was terrible. SY: And how old were you when that happened? PH: I was, oh, by then, I was, I had dated him so I was, how old was I? I was nineteen, twenty. SY: And when were you allowed to start dating cadets? PH: It was interesting because then, if you dated a cadet, the town boys wouldn't date you. SY: Why was that? PH: They were jealous, I think. There was a definite demarcation there. You went with one of the other and you didn't go with both. You always had to make a decision. 5 SY: What, why'd you make the decision that you made? Do you remember your teenage thought process about it? PH: Actually, until after I got out of school, I did not date any cadets. I did date the town boys. But then, after that, I don't know. I don't know how it happened. A lot of the boys went away. That was '48 and it was getting close to the Korean War. A lot of them went in the service. Then, I met some through them coming here. I met two of them when they came here. And one of them I dated and we went to the ball, the junior, what was it called, junior. SY: The ring ceremony? PH: Pardon me? SY: The ring, uh, I always forget what it's called. The junior weekend. PH: There was junior weekend but there was a special name for I can't remember what it was. But anyway, it had the king and the queen and the whole nine yards. SY: Yeah. Yeah. PH: Yeah. SY: Would town boys be sort of mean about? PH: No. They just wouldn't date you. It was kind of a, a hidden thing, you know. Nobody talked about it. Nobody said, "I won't date you if you date." That wasn't even part of it but it just happened. That's the way it was. SY: That's very interesting. Let's rewind a little bit and let's talk about, because you're a teenager during World War II. Let's talk about what it was like during World War II in town. Do you have any memories of that? PH: I do. I do. SY: Could you talk about those? PH: I do because I had an uncle and two cousins that were in the War. They were Marines. I was, let's see, at that time, I was trying to think the other day how old I was when the Germans marched into Poland. That was '39, so I would have been eight. I can remember lying in bed and this was a direct route for the planes to go over from Portland to, I think, Massachusetts. I used to worry. I'd hear those planes and I think, "Oh. Are they going to?" You didn't know who they were. Whether they were our or theirs. I used to think about that, lying in bed and I used to think about my cousins, worrying about them, where they were and what they 6 were in to and so forth. Plus, other boys that were in town, you know. You worried about them too. It was an interesting time. I can remember when I heard that the Germans had gone into Poland in 1939. I was walking to school and I met up with somebody who had heard it on the radio and they mentioned it. It was a shock. It was a real shock. Because, of course, we didn't have TV and all of that to get instant information. So, it was hard to take. SY: Yeah. Do you remember deprivation during the War? Do you remember rationing? Do you remember blackout curtains? What was the day to day life like? PH: We had all the curtains on all the windows were all blacked out. SY: So, in this house, all of these windows were blacked out curtains. PH: All the windows were blacked out and, uh, then, they had the civil patrol. What was it called? I think it was called civil patrol. They would go out and canvas the town to see if they could see any light. If they did, they knocked on your door and told you something was leaking somewhere. SY: And was it your job to pull down the curtains? Whose job was it to pull down the curtains? PH: Whoever was near them at the time. Not anybody's job really. SY: Were those blackouts scary? PH: No. No. You just had them all the time. You pulled them down all the time. No. We got used to it. My mother and father were spotters, up on the hill up here. They would go up. Now, my father and friend went from six to twelve because they were working. My mother and the friend's wife went from twelve to six in the morning. So, they were up there all night. SY: Looking for planes? PH: Yes. When a plane went over, they had to notify. If it was going this way, they had to notify if Massachusetts. If it was going that way, they had to notify Portland. SY: And did they have phones with them? How did they? PH: Mm hmm. They had phone service up there. SY: Wow. PH: Mm hmm. SY: And they did that every night? 7 PH: No. Once a week. SY: Once a week. PH: They were scheduled. Different people were scheduled once a week. SY: And it was rotated. PH: It was rotated. It was constantly covered. Somebody was up there. SY: Anybody ever see anything? PH: Just the planes going over, you know. Yeah. No. Nothing happened. Thank goodness SY: No. Nothing did. Do you remember when all of the Norwich cadets left campus and enlisted? Do you remember that? Could you describe that? PH: I do. And then, the ASTP came in. SY: Yes. Could you describe that and tell that story? PH: Well, it's all of the sudden they just were, they left and there was no fanfare, not much fanfare anyway. There was more fanfare when ASTP left. They marched to the train and they went that way, as I remember. SY: Did you see them marching? PH: I think so. I know I saw the ASTP when they went down. SY: What does ASTP stand for? PH: I knew you were going to ask me that. SY: Ha! Ha! PH: Army training service? They were soldiers. SY: Yeah. PH: They were soldiers that, non-com soldiers, you called them, I think. They were up here to, I think they had different stretches like six weeks, six months, I mean. I don't know. I'm not sure what their schedules were. But they were up here and that was time we still had horses at Norwich. They had to, they had to take care of them. In fact, we had two friends, two of the AST people, their wives came and 8 stayed here. One, she could only get away like weekends. So, she'd come here. And then, the other one, she was, oh God bless her, she was only eighteen years old. She followed her husband up here. What the people did around here, they took them in. And they could live with, we had one that lived with us, the one I mentioned for room and board. And they just worked, you know, did the dishes. SY: And they weren't associated with Norwich? They were associated with the Guard or something else? PH: No. They were with ASTP that was up there. SY: But that was up on campus? PH: That was on campus. The boys were on campus. SY: Oh. I see. So, all the Norwich cadets left. And then, the campus was used probably to do some training for the military. PH: Exactly. SY: Okay. Now I understand. Okay. And you remember when they left. And you're a little kid, at this point, watching this happen, watching the country mobilize for war. What were you thinking watching all this? PH: Right. I had to, I don't know. It was just something else that was happening, I think mainly. I don't think, I mean, we knew about it and it was talked about and we were concerned. But we didn't really know what was happening, you know. We couldn't visualize. SY: Was there part of it, because when you're a little kid, any event is sort of exciting, even if it's scary. It's a little bit like a snow day like, "This is a new thing that's happening!" Do remember being excited by all the fanfare? PH: It wasn't that much fanfare, really. It really wasn't. Everything just sort of happened, you know. The fanfare was when they left and I can remember going down to the train with the girl that lived here. And, of course, she was weeping because he was going off. He was going to war then and she was going to have to go back home. She was very distraught. I can remember walking with her down to watch them march down, follow them and to get on the train. It was tough. It really was tough. SY: Was she waving? PH: Yeah. SY: Yeah. And crying? 9 PH: Crying. SY: That sounds hard. PH: They all were. All the girls that were here. Many, many people took the girls in so they could be near them. It just, they were friends forever. SY: Yeah. You stayed in touch with them? PH: Mm hmm. SY: Yeah. PH: Yeah. SY: Wow. Do you know what happened? PH: Went to visit them in Florida many, many years afterwards. SY: Oh. Look at that. So, what about rationing during the War? Were you able, what foods weren't you able to get? How did that, how did daily life change? Did the town feel empty without men? PH: Well, we didn't, we didn't have much trouble as far as meat was concerned because my grandfather had a farm and he butchered the cows or had them butchered. So, we were all right with that but butter and sugar were the two things that were difficult. And, of course, you had your stamps and your little coins that you use. It was an interesting time. You'd go to the store and, oh, and we'd take our fat, fat that you had that you dried out like if you had bacon, if you were lucky enough to have bacon. If you had bacon, then you'd dry that out and you'd take the fat down and they'd give you maybe two cents. SY: For the lard. PH: It was like a donation almost for the lard. SY: And what would they use it for? PH: They turned it back in for, they remade something with it in the war effort. SY: Interesting. Was cloth hard to get? I know that cloth was sometimes rationed. PH: I, probably, probably it was. I know my mother, my mother made everything. She made all the clothes and everything. I don't know if cloth was hard to get. I really don't. 10 SY: Okay. So, you remember your little ration book and stamps and going around and getting things. And was cooking different? Did you cook differently than you had before the war? PH: If you had a pound of bacon, you stretched, I mean a pound of hamburger. You stretched it. You put an egg in it because eggs we could get. You put an egg in it and you'd put some breadcrumbs in it. You really stretched it to make it go. SY: Do you feel like you kept some of those habits throughout the rest of your life? PH: Some of them. SY: Because you also were a Depression baby. You were born during the Depression. PH: Right. SY: Yeah. So, did you feel that that influenced you as an adult, those early years? PH: Oh, it has. SY: How so? PH: My children tell me is has. (Laughs.) SY: Oh, yeah? They're like, "Mom!" So, what types of things? PH: Oh, dear. Well, I'm frugal. That was one thing that I learned. Make it work. What other things? I don't know. Maybe the way I cook. I think that might have some influence on that. And making food go. When you're first married, you don't have much money no matter where you are. You tend to fall back on those old ideas. SY: Yeah. So, were there a lot of men missing in the town? Did it feel empty? PH: Yes. Quite a few. Quite a few of the boys went. Yeah. SY: And boys you grew up with too. PH: We lost one. Tom. Tom Mayall. We lost him. He was missing in action, finally declared dead. They had a funeral for him here. His body wasn't brought back. They had a funeral here. And then, about two years later, he came to life. He was not dead. He was prisoner. I think he was a prisoner. And he surfaced. SY: Do you remember how that news was spread? Tell me that story. That's a great story. 11 PH: Everybody was excited. Everybody, whether they knew Tom or not, they were excited. SY: And had you known him? PH: I did know him. SY: Yeah. So, do you remember where you were when you heard that he was alive? PH: I don't. I don't remember. SY: Do you remember when he first came back to town? Did he come by train? PH: I don't remember how he came to town. I remember just having him here and his mother being so excited and, oh, she was so excited. She had other boys that were in the service too. SY: What a reprieve! Can you imagine? Every mother who loses a son is like, "Maybe it's a mistake." What an incredible thing for it to have actually been a mistake. PH: Yeah. SY: Wow. You said your uncle and cousins were in the War and they were okay? PH: Yes. SY: Any aftereffects? Things like PTSD? Were they different afterwards? PH: No. SY: No. Did they talk about it or did they not talk about it? PH: They didn't a lot. No. My husband didn't either until shortly before he died. I mean, it wasn't that he wouldn't talk about it. He just didn't talk about it. If you asked him something, he would answer you, but he was not, he just didn't make a big deal out of it. That's the only way I can describe it. SY: But then, before he died, he felt the need to talk about it. PH: He did talk about it more. Yes. He was an avid Marine. He was very proud to be a Marine. The other two cousins, actually I had several, my favorite cousin, he was in and his brother and his father was in. And they met over in Okinawa. We have a picture of them where they met, the three of them in Okinawa. Uncle Ray, I think he was a general at that time. He graduated. He's on the flag up there at Norwich. Are they still there, the flags in the chapel? 12 SY: I think so. PH: And his two sons. He met his two sons over there. That was kind of nice. SY: So, he had been a Norwich graduate as well. PH: Mm hmm. SY: So how did you meet your husband? PH: In college. SY: And where did you go to school? PH: At Castleton. SY: You went to Castleton. You met him at Castleton. After the War? PH: Yes. Oh, yes. SY: What did you study? PH: On campus. SY: No. What did you study? PH: What did I study? Oh, teaching. I was a teacher too and he was a teacher. SY: What subject? Or did you teach elementary? PH: I taught elementary and he taught junior high. Then, another interesting thing that happened to me, I laugh about it now. They had a course. I don't know if you've heard about it. They had a course here in Norwich in aviation, in the summer. You've heard about it? Okay. I can't think of his name, the one that taught. Oh, he was wonderful. All of them were. Anyway, I took that course. One day, it hit me. I said, "I'm the first girl to go to Norwich, to take a course and go to Norwich in our family." It was like, okay, so there was my uncle, my grandfather, and my father and brothers. And then, I had the chance to go. SY: You might have been one of the first girls ever to take a class at Norwich! PH: That's right. SY: So, what year was this and tell me what it was like? 13 PH: I think it was 1950. Oh, we had a wonderful time. It was all teachers. I used the material a lot afterwards. I wish I could think of the man's name. SY: And what were you learning? Were you learning to actually fly? PH: Aviation. Mm hmm. Well, we had an hour, two hours in the simulator, the simulator here. We did a lot with, we learned how they studied air currents and all of that and the principals of flying. Enough so that we could take it back and give the kids an understanding of it. They loved it. I did a unit on it afterwards, the first year afterwards. Oh, it was so much fun because they got so excited to be able to do something so different. We had to make planes. They had to fly. I can't remember how long they had to fly but they did. We had to pass that. That was very important we passed that. SY: So, you had to make planes, like miniature planes, and they had to fly successfully so that you could demonstrate understanding aerodynamics. PH: Right. Right. SY: And you got to be in a flight simulator. PH: You got to be in the flight simulator. We took a trip to Sikorsky in Connecticut where, you know, they were building, they were building, I think, helicopters. Maybe they're doing that now. I'm not sure. Anyway, yeah. We had to fly. It was just a wonderful course. Nobody could ask for a better course. They were working so hard to make it successful. They really just put their all into it. SY: And it was other teachers. So, there were other women in that course. PH: Oh yes. SY: Lots of other women in that course. I wonder if you guys were technically the first group of women to take a course at Norwich. PH: I think we were. SY: Huh. How did that feel? PH: I was excited because I liked the idea of going there. SY: And your whole family had gone there. So, it makes sense that you were like, "What about me!?" Yeah. PH: It was really fun. It was a different experience. I'm trying to think how many were in the class. It must have been, I don't know. There were twenty-five of us, maybe. 14 SY: I wonder how long they ran that course for. PH: Only a couple, three years. They dropped it. I never knew why. I always felt bad that they did. SY: Yeah. PH: Because it was a wonderful teaching tool. SY: And it's exciting that they were also attempting to connect to elementary school teachers, right, and create an aviation curriculum. So, it sounds like you worked for most of your adult life. PH: I taught until I went down to New York. And then, I stopped teaching when I went down there. I substituted. That was all. And then, I decided I wanted to be home when my children came home. So, I stopped working. I didn't stop working. I stopped teaching. (Laughs.) SY: Yep. Let's not make that mistake. PH: No. SY: You were working hard. PH: But anyway, yes. That was it. We were there twenty-five years. Then, we came back here, retired back to this house. Been here since '82. SY: I have some more questions. I'm wondering, when you were a little girl, what you wanted to be when you grew up? What were your dreams of what you were going to do with your life? PH: You're going to laugh. I wanted to be a teacher. SY: I'm not going to laugh! And why did you want to be a teacher? PH: Probably because my mother was. I suspect that was my motivation. SY: Where did your mother get her teaching degree? PH: She got it at Montpelier Seminary. There's a seminary down there. SY: So, that was Vermont College, wasn't it? PH: And then it was Vermont College. Yes. But she did not want to teach in village schools. She only taught in the country schools. She loved it. She absolutely loved it. 15 SY: Why not the village schools? Why the country schools? PH: The children are entirely different, entirely different. They're so appreciative, everything you do. You can't do enough for them. They don't have a lot, you know. They just are super kids. SY: So, she was never your teacher. You were going to the village school and she was teaching in the country. Or did she stop teaching when you were born? PH: The way it happened was the superintendent came to her and he wanted her, because right after she got married, she was teaching down in Braintree. After they were married, she came, they came back here. About five years later, I was born. And then, she wanted to stay home with me. I guess I was four at the time because I was going to be five when school started. The superintendent wanted her to teach and she said, "No. I'm not going back in to teaching until Priscilla goes to school." He said, "Well, maybe I can arrange that." He said, "I can't put her in the village school because the cut-off date is six." And I would have been five. He said, "But maybe I could put her up here in the center across from the library, up on the hill." He said, "Maybe I could put her in there and it won't cause a ruckus. Then you could teach." (Laughs.) Who'd do that? SY: So, is that what happened? PH: That's exactly what happened. I went to school up there for a year. And then, I came back down and I went to second grade in the village school. SY: So, you come from a, your mother loved teaching, it sounds like and you love teaching. I guess, where was your first teaching job and what were your joys and failures? I've taught, so I know there are joys and failures. PH: There are. My first teaching job was right here in Northfield. SY: Where you'd gone to school. PH: Yep. And I had what I'd call the best class that ever went through the Northfield school system. 1957, the class of 1957. And they were, oh, they were just wonderful kids. I've kept in touch with them all these years. I go to their reunions. They're just wonderful. SY: What made them so great? Well, what grade were you teaching? PH: Then, I was teaching sixth grade. I was teaching in an overflow class, an overflow group, because there were so many, they divided them. So, I only had nineteen. Perfect! 16 SY: Oh, because this is the baby boom. This is the post-war boom. That was the first year of that. If they were twelve, then. PH: That's why there was so many and that's why they divided them. I really considered myself lucky. To have such a class. Oh! All just wonderful and they've done very, very well. SY: What types of stuff did you do with them? Do you remember some of the curriculum you did, some of your projects? PH: Oh, dear. We had to stick pretty much to the, you know, one time, it was a Friday afternoon and everybody was like this, you know. And so, I said to them, we had to do, it was a literature, world literature. We had a little unit on that. And so, they were working around the Australian area. So, I said, "How would you like to learn to sing Waltzing Matilda?" Well, they thought that was a good idea and I figured it was good for anything else, right. So, the only way that I could do it was by rote, because I had nothing to do it with. I was singing to them and there were two doors on either side. The superintendent could come in. Of course, anybody could come in either door. So, I'm singing away there to them and then, I'd have them do a part of it and then I'd sing some more and then we'd do all of it. I did it that way. I happened to be singing and I didn't have the voice I have now. I happened to be singing and Walt Gallagher was the superintendent and he came around the corner and I looked up and I saw him and I don't know what, there must have been a look on my face or something. He said, "Oh, I won't bother you now. I'll be back later." (Laughs.) SY: (singing) Waltzing Matilda! Waltzing Matilda! PH: That's exactly what I was doing. It was fun. I loved it. I did. I loved teaching. That's all I can say is I really enjoyed it. SY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It must have been nice to teach in the school that you had gone to. You probably knew the, there were probably just a couple families and you knew all the families. PH: I knew the families but I also taught with some of the teachers that taught with my dad. SY: That's a strange experience, huh? PH: It was very strange. In fact, the eighth-grade teacher, I mean I always called Ms. Lyon, Ms. Lyon, you know. That's what you call her, I mean. She was very strict. When she was the principal, you know, you were scared to death of her. One day, she said, "Priscilla." And then she paused, she said, "Priscilla, call me Vesta. Don't call me Ms. Lyon anymore." Okay. (Laughs.) 17 SY: Yeah. PH: And it was the hardest thing for me to do. The others, there were a couple of others there, I didn't have any trouble with. But to call her, it was really wicked. Oh. I was so nervous. SY: That's hilarious. PH: I had been afraid of her in school and it sort of carried through. SY: What was your biggest challenge as a teacher? What was the thing that was hardest for you in the classroom? PH: What was the what now? SY: Your biggest challenge as a teacher. What was hardest for you in the classroom? PH: Discipline. SY: Yeah. What the expectation then of how you were supposed to discipline kids? PH: Well, of course you didn't harm. I wouldn't think of hitting them. No way. But, it just, I don't know, I never had that much trouble with it really. I had one incident and he's a graduate of Norwich. No names. He was a challenge personified, really. I knew I was going to get him. The others teachers had so much trouble with him and I determined, right at the beginning, I determined, "I'm going to win this child over." So, he came in. He did a couple of things but he came in one day and, uh, I don't know what he did. Oh. Yes. I had already put his desk down beside mine. I was headed this way and he was headed this way. So, he was sitting there for several things he had done and then, I don't know what he did now. I can't remember. I sat down and I put the children to work. I sat down and I wrote and I wrote and I wrote and I wrote. I put it in an envelope. And then, I put his mother's name on it and I put it on the corner of his desk. This is in the morning. He's got to look at this until lunch time. So, I guess you'd call it torture. I don't know. He sat there and looked at it. So, he went home. When he came back, I said, "Did you give your mother the note?" He said, "I threw it on the table as I was leaving." I said to him, "Well, that means you've got to wait all afternoon to find out the result. That's going to make it even worse. Isn't it?" And so, that was that. The next morning, I went in. He's sitting at his desk. Now, I went to school about 7:30. Early. I did my best work with planning in the morning. I went in. There sits Gary. I said, "Did you get locked in last night?" He said, "No." He said, "The janitor let me in this morning." I said, "Why are you here so early?" He said, "I just had to tell you," he said, "I didn't know how much you cared about me." Because in the note, I had written, "It's only because I care so much about so much about, that I really want him to do well. Seventh grade is very important because it will be the start of his really having to buckle down in high school and learn to do well. I 18 know he can do it but he's doing too much extracurricular fooling around." He said, "Nobody's ever liked me in school." SY: What a success that is! What a success! PH: It really was. I consider it the biggest success I had in all my teaching. I had written on the bottom to ask his mother to please come in to see me. She came in and we talked about it. She said, "What can I do? What can I do to help this along?" I said, "Well, I don't know." I said, "He's very fond of his football equipment." And so, she took his football equipment away from him and told him he couldn't have it back until I wrote a note saying that it was possible. So, I let him go about six weeks. I was going to win this one. Finally, one day, I sat down and I wrote a note. Put it on his desk. He took it home. The next morning, I came in, same time, there sits Gary, full football uniform on, hat, all this stuff they wear, ball under his arm. SY: That's very sweet. PH: Is that a wonderful story? I love it. I just love it. SY: And how did he end up doing? PH: All I can say is he now, I think he's the registrar of one of the biggest colleges in the country. SY: Look at that! He did all right, that kid! PH: I wish I could tell you his name, but I shouldn't. SY: No. Oh, you shouldn't. That's a very sweet story. PH: Oh, it was wonderful. I was so pleased. He was so cute. After I left teaching, he even wrote me. He would write me letters. He was one of the ones, when we had the, when I had the units on aviation, he really got into it. He did so well on that. He really did. He was interested and excited about it. I remember him probably being the most excited than any of them. SY: It sounds like you were a wonderful teacher. PH: Oh, I don't know about that. We did have a good time. We had a good time. Hopefully, they learned. SY: Were you sad when you were moving to New York, to leave teaching at the village school? Did you teach? PH: I did. I was. Yeah. 19 SY: Did you have a send-off when you left? PH: No. Not really. Not really. SY: So, why and you lived in Northfield your whole life so you must have been sad about leaving Northfield or were you excited about moving somewhere else? What was the, I assume your husband got a job. PH: I was excited about going down there. I just wanted to do something, you know, outside. I knew I could always come back. I liked New York. I really did. Teaching was different. SY: How was it different? PH: I had, I was called in to teach first grade one day and I was pregnant with my youngest son. And so, I kind of hesitated but I said, "Okay." I would go in. I had this little kid who, I had put them all to work and when you go in, you don't have any lesson plans and you've got to figure out something quick. You've taught school. You know. So, I worked on that and then, I was walking up the aisle, between the, of course, the seats were all together. I was walking up the aisle and this little kid stuck his foot out, tripped me and I just barely, just barely held myself up and got out of it. I got home that night. I said to Stanley, "That's it. No more. Not now." SY: What was, you know what? I'm just realizing your chair is kind of squeaky. I'm wondering if maybe we should switch chairs because the squeak is coming up. PH: Is it? SY: Do you think this chair is less squeaky? PH: Could be. SY: Let's try. We'll just move my chair over and hope it's a little less squeaky. Trade. PH: This one's more solid. SY: That's more solid? Okay. Then let's do that one. There we go. So, what was it like to live in Huntington after having lived in Northfield? How was life different? PH: We lived in Northport but he taught in Huntington. It was different but I had very nice neighbors. That made it, you know. SY: And it was suburb then, right? 20 PH: Yes. We even had some potato fields. SY: Really? PH: Yes! SY: Wow! PH: Not now. SY: I was trying to figure out where Huntington is. PH: North Shore. SY: North Shore. And where's Levittown? PH: Levittown is closer to the city. SY: Closer to the city. PH: And it's in the middle. SY: But these were, like, some of the early post-War suburbs, right? PH: Mm hmm. SY: Were all the houses kind of alike? Were they designed neighborhoods or were they older than that? PH: No. You know, Huntington was, Northport especially, they had a lot of cottages out there. People went out there in the summer. A lot of them were converted cottages. Now, they're McMansions. SY: Of course. Yeah. PH: It's entirely different. Even the house that we had, it was built in the fifties. When I go by, I can't believe it. They just sold it so I was able to look at the pictures of the inside and they've done some beautiful work in there. Good ideas. No. They're not side by side really. Now, it's condos and big senior units and things like that. SY: So, how did you like being a mom? PH: Oh, I loved being a mom. SY: You did? Some people like staying at home with their kids and some people don't. You liked it. 21 PH: I did. SY: You really like kids, it sounds like. PH: I do. SY: How many kids do you have? PH: Pardon me? SY: How many kids do you have? PH: Three. SY: Three. Okay. Are they still living out on the island or are they scattered? PH: They are. They're all down there. SY: That's good. So, you can spend winters down there with them. PH: Right. I said, "We left and they didn't." SY: Yep. What made you and your husband decide to retire back up here? PH: After my mother passed away, father passed in '60, after my mother passed away in '75, the house was ours. We'd come every summer, just doing the work that had to be done to keep it up. Other than that, we closed it. He was from Vermont. He was from Calais and I was from Northfield. It was just a given to do this. Get back to where it's quieter and less expensive to live. Right now, it's horrendous to live down there. Awful. SY: Were any of your old friends still around when you came back? Did you still feel like you knew people? PH: Oh, yeah. SY: So, it was easy to slip right back in. PH: Right. Oh, yes. No problem. Between relatives and friends, it was easy. SY: Yeah. PH: That's why I say I have the best of both worlds because I go down there for six months and I see all my friends down there and then I come up here and I have all my friends up here. 22 SY: So, of course, Northfield has changed over the course of your life but I bet there's also ways in which its stayed the same. I'm wondering your thoughts about that, ways it's different and ways it's similar. PH: Well, if you take this street, for instance, every house on this street, except for the one's that painted purple, every house is the same as it was. Off this here, we now have another street off it. That wasn't there. It wasn't spruces. It was grove up there of fir trees. It was gorgeous. They took them down. SY: Oh, that's sad. PH: It is. The Common, the Common down there has changed. And, of course, Norwich has changed. That's what we watched. SY: How have you seen Norwich change? PH: Oh, my goodness! As the buildings go up, it's just amazing. And all we ever had was the, you know, Plumley. SY: The armory. PH: Couldn't think of it. Yes. Plumley. But now they have Kreitzberg. It's just amazing. It's amazing what they've done. And that's all been since, except for the building up on the Quad, all these other new buildings have all been built since the '50s. SY: Yeah. Do you remember how you felt when you heard that girls were going to be allowed to come to Norwich? PH: Oh, that was great! Yeah. I thought it was great. Nothing wrong with that. And I was so glad when we had a girl cadet colonel. I was excited. Didn't know her but I was excited. SY: Yeah. What about it excited you? PH: Oh, I just thought it was wonderful. She did so well that she could do that. SY: Yeah. PH: She had to go over some hard bumps probably to get there. SY: I would imagine. For sure. Yeah. PH: That's, you know, the Common and Norwich, that's basically the changes that have been made around here. Not too many. 23 SY: No. I guess not too many. And, I guess, the house hasn't changed that much. No. PH: No. We haven't changed it. I had the kitchen redid. We made the kitchen larger. There was a sunporch out there and a little pantry. We put that window in which was just like this window. Did that when we first came back. Other than that, no. We haven't changed it much. I like a kitchen where people can sit when you're cooking and you can talk to them. SY: Who doesn't? That's what a kitchen is for. PH: That's right. SY: That's what a kitchen's for. I wonder if you have any last thoughts or reflections about Northfield, about Norwich, about I don't know, last thoughts. You're at this point where you're probably looking back on your life and thinking about it in some ways and, I don't know, what are you proudest of? Are there things that you regret? PH: Hmm. SY: That's a hard one. PH: That's a hard one. Yeah. That's a hard one. I probably do but I can't think of. SY: But mostly, it sounds like you feel pretty good. PH: Oh, I do. I do. SY: Yeah. PH: I don't have much to, I don't have anything to be upset about or sorry. Just getting older. SY: Yeah. PH: I said, "I don't mind." My son's going to be 60. I said, "Gee, I didn't mind when I was 60. That was a good age." I said, "70 wasn't bad either but 80 has been…" (Laughs.) SY: Yeah. It's been hard. Yeah. PH: Awful. SY: Really? 24 PH: Yeah. SY: Yeah. PH: But oh well. It's all a part of it. SY: It's part of the process. PH: It's part of the process. SY: Yeah. Exactly. PH: Nothing you can do about it. SY: No. There's nothing you can do about it. PH: I have such a marvelous support group here. SY: Yeah? Tell me about it. PH: Oh. I'm so lucky. I mean, everybody looks out for me. When I go away, of course, you see my one cat has been roaming around. Got a couple of those, another one, I mean. I have a cat sitter who comes in and lives here. He's very good. He just looks out for the cats. They like him I think better than they do me now. (Laughs.) That's what I tell him. He looks out for me. I get phone calls. "Anything you need at the store?" I am going to have a woman that I go to the store with because I don't have the stamina now to lift everything and put it in and do all of that so. She'll help me with that. At the end of the street, I have Bill Lyon, who, anything goes wrong, he's right here, fixes it. I had a leak in the basement down here along the edge. I have a friend that, her husband's an engineer and she said, "Oh, he should look at that. He can tell you what to do." So, he came down and looked at it. He said, "It's really bad. It's going to cost about $3,000 to fix that." And I go, "Okay." I'm thinking, "Oh, gosh!" Then, Bill said, "Let me take a look at it." He takes a look at it. The next thing I know, the next morning, I wake up and I hear pound, pound, pound. What is that? I go around and I look and he's down there. He's working on it. He's fixing it. He fixed it! All fixed. SY: They're taking good care of you. PH: Yeah. SY: Yeah. I know another question I have – town/gown relations. How have you seen the relationship between Norwich and the town change over time? PH: Very good question. Very good question, because there's always been, the only word I can use is jealousy, a bit of jealousy of Norwich. I always say, "If it wasn't 25 for Norwich, Northfield would be Bethel." You know Bethel? Northfield would be Bethel! I said, "I don't know how you can say that because, I mean, yes, they've taken a lot of the houses over here, down." They've done things that are maybe not to everybody's liking but the good they do. Helping with the EMTs. There's just so many things that they are responsible for, helping with the police department, the money they give for that. Sure, granted, they use them. I think people resent the fact that there's no tax and nothing coming in to the tax indecipherable, but it's a college. SY: Did the cadets also have a reputation for being kind of wild at different points in time? PH: Yes. SY: Carousing in town. PH: But it depends who you ask, you know. It really does. They were boys! (Laughs.) They would do some things some times. I don't know if you ever notice the centennial stairs had chips on them. Those chips were made, if I can remember, those chips were made, I believe, I'm going to say 1950 but give it a couple years either way. They did things like that. They rolled a cannonball down those stairs. SY: Oh my. PH: That was bad. SY: Wow. PH: It was bad but it's kind of funny now. SY: Do you remember when all the horses, during the War, all the horses left at one point, didn't they? Do you remember that? Visually, what was it like? How did the leave? PH: They must have put them on a train. Must have. SY: You didn't see it? PH: I didn't see that. That was right after the ASTP left, about that same time, '40s that they left. Oh, I know what I wanted to show you. SY: Okay. I'm ready. I won't go anywhere. I'll stay right here. PH: Oh. I'm sorry. Are we still working? SY: No. No. Is it something that should be on tape or not on tape? 26 PH: Not on tape. I don't think so. It's about the drum. SY: Oh. PH: I mentioned the drum. SY: And where does the drum come from again? PH: Will that be all right? SY: Yeah. Okay. So, tell me again about William Holden. PH: He was in Gettysburg. He came back here to Northfield. He was a very active man. It will tell you some of this in there. No. Maybe it won't. He ended up having a farm up on 12A. He was in the slate business with my other grandfather that lived on Dole Hill. That's where that comes from. I forgot how hold he was when he went into the Corp. Anyway, he was there for the duration of that. Then, he came back. He did a lot of things but he was a great part of the town business, things that went on. I believe he was also in the legislature. He just kind of had his hand in every pot. SY: Did you hear stories about him growing up? PH: Let's see. I was pretty young when he died. I can just barely remember him. SY: This is Holden or Dole? PH: Holden. SY: Holden. So, your grandfather you remember? PH: Yes. SY: Yes. PH: Well, not very well. Grandfather Dole, no not very well because died in, actually I can't remember him. He died in '29 and I was born in '31. SY: Okay. So, you never met him. PH: Never met him. SY: Yeah. 27 PH: No. I just know stories about him. Change the subject here, there's a book. There are two journals, big fat books like this. You know them. I think they go from 1885 to – SY: This is Norwich history? PH: Yeah. SY: The Ellis? Ellis? Yeah. PH: Okay? All right. It tells you about Dole. SY: About Dole? Yeah. I actually wonder about your father too. Do you know what his experiences were like at Norwich as a cadet and did he enter the service afterwards? PH: I could tell you a story. SY: Yeah. Tell me a story. PH: When he was at Norwich, he used to go home on the weekend. You could go home on the weekend. His mother made all sorts of goodies, little pies, cakes, and everything. He'd come down and he'd sell them to the cadets. There's stories about him coming back with great big boxes of goodies. They'd all be waiting for him when he got there. SY: He was a little entrepreneur. PH: Yes. He was. SY: Do you also remember, after the War, when married Norwich students were living in this sort of family housing? Do you remember that? PH: Mm hmm. SY: And it was, I guess it was over by the intersection with Route - PH: It's on 12A. SY: Yeah. Do you remember that? PH: Mm hmm. SY: What was that like? 28 PH: They were little duplex houses. There was one bedroom, one living room, sort of a dining room, and the kitchen was off that. That's what they were, pretty crude, but livable. That's where, they lived there. A lot of professors lived there too. SY: Yeah. PH: For housing. SY: For housing. People were desperate for housing after the War. Well, I don't think I have any other questions. That was great. Then, this article about the drum, where was this from? What newspaper? PH: Okay. I don't know. See, my grandmother, great-grandmother, W.W.'s wife, so that's in the late 1800s, she would take anything that was happening in the paper about them. See, even down here, there's something, I think. Isn't there? SY: Yeah. PH: Right here. Were they celebrating a – SY: Yeah. PH: She had a book, a medical book and I wish I had it downstairs. She would paste articles in it. So, I don't know whether that came from a Vermont paper or, doesn't look like a Northfield paper. SY: No. It doesn't. I don't know. Well, I'll hand it over and we'll see if we can figure it out. PH: I figured it's documentation. As you read it, you'll see, because they never had anything to know. SY: Anything about the drum. PH: Anything about the drum. SY: Your family donated it but they don't know anything about it. PH: W.W. donated it. SY: I'll go find out what the deal is with it. PH: I'd love to know when you find out. SY: I will. 29 PH: Because I've never known. I mentioned it once when I was up there and they didn't have a clue. SY: There's a new registrar. He's very conscientious. End of Recording
Part one of an interview with John Clementi. Topics include: Memories of John's father, Sandro Clementi. His father's work history and how he became an executive in the plastics business. His father's business contacts in Italy. How his father brought new designs to his company and how the company grew. His father owned a pool hall. John's memories of the family trips to Italy they would every summer when he was growing up. What Italy was like around 1960. Speaking Italian in the United States and in Italy. Italian dialects. John's thoughts on discrimination. John's experiences at Leominster High School and at Deerfield. How John went to Boston College Law School. John left litigation work and joined his father at Plastican. How he met his wife. What Latvia, his wife's homeland, is like. How John and his father divide tasks at Plastican. What sort of products the company makes. The ethnic diversity that exists within the company. ; 1 LINDA ROSENLUND:This is Linda [Rosenlund] with the Center for Italian Culture. Today we're with John Clementi, a [Plastican] located on Industrial Road in Leominster. And today is Thursday, December 13, 2001. John is the son of Sandro Clementi and brother of Anna Canlangelo. So, John, um, could you tell about, first of all, your father, your -- you were telling me before I turned the microphone on that he's really… JOHN CLEMENTI: Yeah. Um, he, um… you know, I think that people that know him, that have known him for any given amount of time would, um… what I think, would all agree that he's just a, an extremely talented, um, gifted person, uh, has the ability to, uh, look beyond the present. He, he, he has a remarkable gift for, for being able to predict trends the way that, that the world is heading. He has a wonderful knowledge of, uh, human nature, um, which is [unintelligible - 00:01:14]. And he – and he's just a very talented executive. I think he has, um, he possesses all of the skills that one would think of in terms of being a very, very effective, uh, executive. Um, and, and I, I think he, he's been able to… exhibit those skills in all sorts of different situations and venues. [Unintelligible - 00:01:34] remain a constant, at least in my experience, having worked with him over the course of the last, uh, 25 years or so. LINDA ROSENLUND:Growing up, was, was he the owner of the… JOHN CLEMENTI: Well, um, growing -- no, I think that he… Plastican really wasn't formed until, um, late '60s, early '70s. Uh, I remember my dad in various roles. I remember him as the proprietor of a, um… of a pool hall. Um, and, and going with him on Sunday mornings, uh, to go clean the pool hall up. I remember him, um, as a, um… as a foreman in a plastics factory, um, working at the [unintelligible - 00:02:21]. And, uh, him sort of coming home, um, eating dinner and then go work another job, so, you know. I 2 think I -- my first true recollections of my dad are probably in that capacity. I still remember the blue uniform and the, you know, the grease and the plastic chip. I mean, I was at an age, I think at that time, I was probably maybe four or five years old. And if he did, then I wasn't old enough to understand. I clearly remember is that, you know, he would come home briefly and back. It's still sort of a joke. At the time, the Mickey Mouse Club was the popular children's show. They came on at five o'clock. And if you would ask my father, to this day, Mickey Mouse, he sort of has this negative psychological reaction because it was sort of his signal that it was time to go to work to the other job. And so that's sort of the way I remember my dad coming home and spending with us, you know, a brief amount of time around dinner and then going back out to work another shift. LINDA ROSENLUND:Asking him how it was that he became involved with Plastican, and it's my memory that he was perhaps worked in sales? JOHN CLEMENTI: Yes. I think we need to kind of go back before Plastican. His first involvement with a proprietary company was with Yankee Plastics. And that would have been back, I think, in 1956. And I think that's where the story comes in about the real estate agent and being made aware of this particular company. It would be around the time that I was talking about earlier. He was working in a plastics company anyway. He was working at Star Manufacturing Company as a shift supervisor. And as such, he more or less had to know the ins and outs of operating the plow from -- I mean, even as a child, in those days, he was literally hands-on. He would come home, as I say, covered with grease and plastic dust in his hair and on his clothes and so forth. He knew intimately the details of running a plastics operation. 3 He was also fortunate, you know, I think he would tell you that he was, in that the owner of that company was an Italian himself. And his name was Nick Dimassa, D-I-M-A-S-S-A. And Nick had been in the United States for a long time. He was the kind of person who -- you know, he was a boy, he was a very elegant figure, you know, just sort of the [block] of white hair and always had a [unintelligible – 00:05:25]. He was a successful manufacturer back in those days and my dad worked for him. And my dad often tells me the story that… you know, I think Mr. Dimassa told him, you know, that instead of making money for him, for Mr. Dimassa, that at some point maybe… well, because he was too talented to work for other people. Then the opportunity arose with this company, Yankee Plastics, which was a small action molder or custom molder that manufactured the kinds of things that are really no longer manufactured in the United States anymore. And by that, I mean… LINDA ROSENLUND:Making that no longer made. JOHN CLEMENTI: Right. So… LINDA ROSENLUND:Like what? JOHN CLEMENTI: Like, you know trinkets and giveaway items—small, little things. And basically for other companies, for other people. It wasn't a proprietary line. It was a line of products that were manufactured for the others. And the product line, from what I could tell, at least at that time as a child, you know, seem to have evolved and that the things that he made were bigger. You know, [unintelligible - 00:06:32] larger. And that line seemed to evolve from the kinds of things that we were just talking about into things like pitchers. And the company evolved into a proprietary housewares manufacturer. And I think probably the turning point for that company, for Yankee Platsics, happened to… in the early '60s, that probably had emerged as a leader in 4 design, especially in plastic design. Because I think it's safe to say that plastics is an ersatz material, a substitute for something else—wood or net, or -- in a sort of view it's a surrogate, whereas in Italy, at the time, emerging from the war, plastics was a new material. It was different. It had a higher value to most people. And subsequently, extraordinarily talented designers in Italy were designing plastic housewares, and my dad saw that and realized that very mundane items were being designed to be extraordinarily beautiful, and brought some of those designs to the United States and began to manufacture them on a proprietary basis, and began selling them to companies that were at the time, you know, the equivalent of the big-box retailers that we know of now as K-Mart or Walmart. It would have been a Woolworths or WT Grant. And so he started manufacturing these products for those kinds of companies, and I think that's really where the company began to assume a different… LINDA ROSENLUND:Now, did he hire anyone from [ideas forward]? JOHN CLEMENTI: Well, it was interesting at the time. From around 1960 on, we would spend a good part of our summers in Italy. We would go back to the ancestral town, Corfinio, and the whole family would. And, you know, while we were there, my dad made business contacts in the north of Italy, Turin and Milan, where the plastics business was happening—not only just for Italy but for Europe, in a way. And he made contact with various designers, the most prominent of which was a house called Leonardo, and had some designs done for plastic housewares. And I mean mixer, decanter design, that was just kind of thing where, if you saw it today, it would be just as beautiful today as it was. You know, classic, modern design. And he picked up on that. And, you know, purchased some designs from that house and began to sell them, manufacture the products and sell them. 5 He didn't even know the process but continued, I think is… you know as we continue to maintain a relationship with Italy in terms of going there in the summer, I think he was probably more aware of what was going on in Europe, both by way of Danish and Swedish and Finnish. Right from the very start his proprietary line probably had an edge in terms of quality. I think he was probably… he was a leverage, I think, pretty much to the Hilton those days. But I think that what happened was, once these designs hit, they were just enormously successful. In fact, there was one item, I think if you ask him specifically, there was one item that really was all the [doctoring gamble], which item was sort of a revolutionary item. It was the decanter that now I think we all probably recognize, the one with the measuring lines on the outside and the flip top, little spout on the top, you know, where you take the soft lid and put it on top. And now it's an archaic item, but in those days I think it was a bit revolutionary in that it replaced, you know, the glass pitcher that lemonade would go in, for example. That, I think, was probably the item that provided most of the working capital to go ahead. I would say that was the most significant item. LINDA ROSENLUND:Ask for a design they have an idea of art and then they make contact with? JOHN CLEMENTI: Well, in those days there was a—and there still is, in fact—a national houseware show in Chicago. And I believe that they saw it in Chicago, because my dad would exhibit with everybody else. And I think they saw the item and liked it and tried it on, and it became wildly successful [unintelligible - 00:11:42] a springboard for other items. In fact, I think that was the first, and then the items from Italy that were really high fashion came later. So that, I think that was probably the item that really made the difference. And of course, you could -- the world thinks that 6 came from that. In other words, you had the decanter, now you make the tumblers that go with the decanter, and it sort of becomes a set, and off you go. And there are other sets then, you know, that… pitchers and tumblers, you need bowls, and so you make bowls. And then you need colanders. You know, all of that sort of houseware items that we've come to realize is sort of … you know, the staples of plastic housewares—laundry baskets, lace baskets, all of those things. The line eventually evolved and grew so that it went from things like small tumblers to wastebaskets and trash receptacles, big, 34-gallon trash receptacles. The company evolved, such that from, let's say, from, 1967 it went from a small custom molder to a full-blown housewares manufacturer with a proprietary line. There's a real difference. I mean, custom molder, you're a job shop working for other people. And then as a proprietary line, you are a brand name, and you are manufacturing for yourself. And I think that was a crucial revolution, really, as far as… LINDA ROSENLUND:After more… JOHN CLEMENT: Yeah, I think -- you know, in Leominster, where in those days there were scores of custom molders, custom molders being people who manufactured items for other companies. You know, I think everybody's dream was to have their own proprietary line because you could essentially control you own fate. And my dad was… you know, enough of a visionary to realize that even early on, and thus the importance of coming up with designs that were at the time, at least, you know, innovative and different and would provide an [entrée] in places like Woolworths, for example, that he might not otherwise ever be able to get into given the existence of companies like Rubbermaid at the time. So I think that was a big, a major factor in, you know, being successful going forward. 7 No. Mr. Dimassa was the owner and chief executive of the company called Star Manufacturing, and that's where my dad was a shift foreman, where he learned the art and science of plastics. And he left Star Manufacturing to purchase Yankee Plastics, which was not much more than a garage type operation, very small manufacturing plant with, you know, with not much in terms of sales and not much in terms of machines. But he left Star Manufacturing to buy Yankee Plastics with his life savings and start, you know, in the business as a proprietor. I heard them talk about it. And I heard my dad talk about it and… basically say, I think, with a lot of admiration, that my mother just -- my mother never ever reminded him of what he was doing and what the risks were involved and, you know, the potential downside. Basically, she was there to support him in whatever he felt he needed to do, and that she always basically had faith in what he was doing. She never had much doubt that it was going to be successful. Yes, yes, yes. LINDA ROSENLUND:… while he was at Star Manufacturing? JOHN CLEMENTI: I'm not sure of that, but I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that he was doing both, yes. He was working two jobs at the time. LINDA ROSENLUND:I never really understood… JOHS CLEMENTI: Well, I think it's… again, I hate to speak for him in that regard, but I think it's because it was a [solicit] income that didn't require a tremendous amount of sophistication if terms of the language, in terms of, you know, business relationships, banks, regulatory agencies. You know? It's a pool hall. People put down money and play pool, and that's that. So it's fairly straightforward, easy kind of business to get into. That doesn't mean you're necessarily successful at it, but it's… you know, if I had to guess, I would think that was the reason. 8 LINDA ROSENLUND:Well, I don't want to put words into his mouth or your mouth either, but I can remember, when asking him about social clubs, he said, "Oh, no. I never belonged to a club," but I got the impression that the pool hall was… JOHN CLEMENTI: I don't know. I don't know about that. I think he probably met a lot of people that way that he might not have met otherwise. But I never had any impression from him that it was a social thing. To me, it was strictly, from what I could tell, a business thing. And it wasn't… again, from what I could tell, the clientele there was not… Italian. It wasn't Italian American. It was just at the pool hall in another town and, you know, in the early '50s. And my dad would always say that, you know, was unfortunate, but pool halls always did well when economies didn't do well. Because people were laid off and had time on their hands, you know, what do you do? And, you know, the pool hall is strictly, from what I could tell at least, an economic thing. LINDA ROSENLUND:At the pool hall, when he fought Yankee… JOHN CLEMENTI: I believe he did. You know, I'm pretty sure that he did. In fact, I think that it was before he did that, and it wasn't simultaneous in my recollection. LINDA ROSENLUND:Are there any differences in your whole life… JOHN CLEMENTI: Gee, you know, to tell you the truth, no. My life, my social life was more or less the same as it always was, which is substantially different from the way things are nowadays in a sense that, you know, people visited each other unannounced. You know, people would show, you know, the Italian talking about the Italian, relatives and friends and acquaintances. There was certain informality, you know? It was not unusual maybe a couple nights a week to have people show up at your house for coffee after dinner and talk, or in the summertime to show up and sit up on the porch or whatever. You know, and that continued 9 right on through. So to that extent, nothing really changed. My dad had been working a lot of hours anyway, so he continued to work a lot of hours. And really, our lives… you know, at least for a child, which is what I was, really didn't change. I mean, I think it's fair to say things, you know, things got moved. When I was in the second grade, we moved to another house that was newer and nicer. But substantially, not different from what it was before. So I can't say that life really changed at all at that time. Again, I didn't perceive that anything had changed. The big thing that would've convinced me as a child that we, you know, that we were doing well and that, you know, my dad was a successful person, was, you know, the trips that we would take to Italy in the summertime. Because at a certain point, I realized that not everybody went to Europe every summer. You know, as time went on I realized what a big deal that really was. LINDA ROSENLUND:Were you going to… JOHN CLEMENTI: At the beginning… I can't remember exactly. I don't think she was still living there, but we had -- we just had lots and lots of relatives there. And we have -- the ancestral home was there, and it's still there, the house that my dad grew up in. And at the time, there was sort of a ritual that happens with Italian immigrants from Central Italy and Southern Italy that have kind of gone on this, you know, sort of the… the exodus from Italy, especially in the post-war. They returned in the summertime, usually for the month of August. And it's a little known fact, but there are… tens, if not hundreds of thousands, of Italian immigrants in places like Australia, Argentina, Canada, huge number of Italian immigrants. France, Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium. And these people in the summertime returned to Italy because, among other things, it's vacation in Europe the whole month of August in Italy. No one works. It's a vacation month. 10 And people -- it's kind of a class reunion for everybody. And so, for example, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that our little town of a 1,000 people becomes a town of maybe 3,000 people in August. And so this became sort of a ritual with our family that we would go back for the month of August and… you know, my dad would basically see the people he grew up with, his classmates, his friends, his relatives. And my mother too, because obviously my mother was brought up there as well. And so, you know, it sort of became, as I said, a ritual, or something that was expected. Of course, in the meantime, my dad was, you know, was also doing business, going to design houses, mold makers and talking to the people in the business in Italy who were sort of making it happen over there. And, you know, would build some tools in Italy, get some ideas et cetera. SPEKAER 1: Do you want me to stop this? JOHN CLEMENTI: Yeah. And as I say, for my dad it was business and pleasure, you know, well… nice for me because it afforded me a chance to see cities like Milan and spend some time in big cities whereas… you know, outside of the usual tourist traps, if you will, and get to visit, you know, some companies, and to see Italy as an economic entity as opposed to a tourist entity. And I have to say it was a significant education to me. Because among other things, it allowed me to keep the language, which, you know, was usually lost at some point. But that became I think a very important part of our lives, because for 10 years, I'd say from 1960 to 1970, I think we went every year. Yeah. And just last year my daughter, who is now a senior at Dartmouth, learned Italian and spent a term in Sienna. And we were able to visit her there and that was just a real joy. I was thrilled that she decided on her own that Italian was the language she wanted to learn. And so that was sort of gratifying. But we, 11 the family has been back to Italy, and… I think they enjoy very much and I think they're proud of that side of the family that it's of Italian heritage. I hope that they, you know, continue on and will… learn more about Italy and become more involved with the culture. But that's something they almost have to do on their own, simply because having married someone who is an Italian, it becomes a little bit more difficult. LINDA ROSENLUND:… recruit some of his friends in Italy that have come to America? JOHN CLEMENTI: No. I think… interesting, going back to Italy in those years… I never perceived an overwhelming desire on anybody's part at that time to come to America. Because I think by then, it was pretty much over. Italy was enjoying an economic boom. People were doing well. There was a migration in Italy. People from the south went to the north to work—places like Turin and Milan—to work for companies like Fiat, you know, Pirelli. You know, big companies. And so, there was very little impetus at that time for anybody to come to the United States. I think that was pretty much over. LINDA ROSENLUND:Now, when you… JOHN CLEMENTI: All the time. And it was, it was sort of a wakeup call, because when we first went to… Italy in 1960, it… it was a lot different from what it is today, in many ways. Our little village was primitive. There were maybe three automobiles. There were only a couple of television sets, and they belonged to fraternal organizations. There was no television before until eight o'clock in the evening. It was just so different from what we as Americans expected in terms of lifestyle. Most of the houses didn't have full indoor plumbing. Animals—horses, oxen—were used for transportation. People worked in the fields largely with their own physical labor. It was a very rudimentary agrarian 12 economy, much like what you would see in a third world country today. It would be unfair to call it a third world country because there were obviously other things going on in the big cities, et cetera. But for a ten-year-old child, it was a real eye opener. It was very exciting in many ways to be able to be stepping back in time. But by the same token, I realized that it was a life that was substantially harder than what I was used to. And the natural result of that was to think, "Boy, if we didn't come to the United States, this is the way we would be living now." LINDA ROSENLUND:… back to the village? JOHN CLEMENTI: Well, extraordinarily well. All of our relatives and friends were happy to see us. I mean, they really couldn't have done more for us. They were very lavish in their hospitality and would just about do anything for you to the point of almost being an embarrassment. And so to that extent it was just wonderful. For me, it was a lot of fun because, as I said before, at that time there was a language gap. I'd learned Italian before I learned English, but then I went to school, and, like most American kids, children of immigrants, you don't want to speak the language in public. And so the Italian, while you could understand it, you were always hesitant to speak it. And so when I got to Italy, if I wanted to communicate, I realized that I got to try to speak it as well. And… they had some fun with me and, you know, my brand, my version of the dialect that's spoken in our little village. But we got along well and we had a lot of fun, and it just sort of drew from there to the point where when I was in high school, going back -- I don't think that it was sort of like, "Oh, he's back again." And, you know, I knew everybody and they all knew me, and it was sort of like going to a summerhouse, like [unintelligible - 00:29:35] or something. It was, it became that kind of thing. 13 LINDA ROSENLUND:… dad must have spoken the dialect as well? JOHN CLEMENTI: Yes. LINDA ROSENLUND:So how did he communicate with the businessmen…? JOHN CLEMENTI: Oh, it's interesting, this whole notion of the dialect. I think you'll find, even in Italy today, that some sort of switch goes on and off when you enter the region or when you enter the village. You speak dialect, but when you're anywhere else you speak Italian. It's a phenomenon that I don't think exists here in the United States, where people speak both pure Italian and dialect. And this is true wherever you go. And I noticed this when we do business, as we still do today, with companies in Italy, especially up north. We communicate in Italian or in English, but I know that the people that I'm dealing with, the principals, they'll communicate with their employees in their dialect, which I absolutely don't understand. And if I communicated with my relatives with them present, they wouldn't understand me either. LINDA ROSENLUND:I thought that was more of a recent… JOHN CLEMENTI: I would think, and I hate to speak for Italians, but I think what they would tell you is that people who -- descendants of peasants, say, for a lack of a better term, when they would go to the big city, would speak relatively poor Italian, simply because they spent all their time speaking dialect. But they would know, they would know what they should be saying. And so as time has evolved and education became such that everybody is literate, everybody in Italy speaks the same language. But when they go home, they speak their dialect. And it's a really interesting phenomenon that I don't think as an American I would ever come close to understanding if I didn't go over there to see it firsthand, how someone could be extremely literate. Well, for example, I have a cousin who has written a book—actually, I think books—about classical history, Julius Cesar et 14 cetera. Extremely literate in Italian, and yet when he walks down to the piazza to talk with the guys, boom. He speaks dialect, and just as quickly can go in and out of that mode. So it's a phenomenon that I think still exists, probably to a lesser extent, because I think young people with mass media, watching television, listening to the radio, the Italian becomes modernized, and it is what it is. LINDA ROSENLUND:… now there find it difficult being [unintelligible - 00:32:44]? JOHN CLEMENTI: It's in central Italy. LINDA ROSENLUND:But did he found it difficult going to the north and being taken on seriously by the businessmen up there? JOHN CLEMENTI: You know, I don't think that occurred because… let's not forget, I mean, in the business world he was American. And it was an American company. And even though he spoke Italian, speaks Italian, knows the culture, you know, I think that's the way he was dealing. I think he was always taken very seriously. However, that doesn't discount the fact that there is a, to this day, a dichotomy between north and south. There is a certain… I don't know how to put it, but there's a definite culture clash between the north and the south of Italy. And the northerners view themselves as much more sophisticated, refined than the southerners. And as the southerners, you know, have a similar view of themselves compared to the northerners. In fact, there was actually a movement in the north of Italy to secede from the country. There were this movement, as recently as four or five years ago, for people from the Po Valley to create a country called Padania and secede from the country of Italy. And it doesn't look like it could be real, but I assure you, very real phenomenon. But that was there, and I think that's still there. But I don't think it ever affected my father's ability to do business there. 15 LINDA ROSENLUND:What about accent? JOHN CLEMENTI: You know, again, I think that America has been remarkably fair and welcoming to my father and people like my father. I've probably been -- you know, my father, and people like him who have accents that become self-conscious about it and so forth, I think my dad would tell you that he's been treated fairly, you know, by banks, local banks, who had faith in him early on. And I don't think he's ever forgotten that. I honestly believe that when it comes to discrimination, I think it's there, but I think that to be fair about it, I don't think it's ever been an impediment to me or to meet people, Italian Americans who have a certain sensibility, a certain sensitivity, you know, that it exists. I mean, you know, there will always be… you know, the untoward comment, the, you know, the references, you know, the mafia references that [unintelligible - 00:36:02] me personally. LINDA ROSENLUND:Not even at… JOHN CLEMENTI: Not even at Deerfield. In fact, particularly not at Deerfield. And that's one of the reasons why I personally love the place so much. Because, you know, I think everybody knows and everybody knew at the time, you know, Deerfield was sort of the quintessential Yankee. But the headmaster at the time, Mr. Boyden, Frank Boyden, who's sort of a giant in secondary education, he treated us all the same, and I never… certainly institutionalized from Deerfield. You would get a wise comment from a kid here or there, you know? I chucked out to the usual ignorance that you would find in a high school. I felt that Deerfield, to me, was crucial in my life. I think it was the single most important… Well, let's see. The ethos at Deerfield then and even now was, work hard, play hard. And a certain discipline at the place. By discipline I don't mean a military style discipline, but there was a 16 lot of work to do. It was hard. It was a real interaction between the faculty and the students. And I often tell people, we were as students probably respected by the faculty far more than we deserved. And the place sort or inculcated a sense of responsibility, a sense of giving back to the community. You know, a sense of [unintelligible - 00:37:50] your affairs in a courtly manner. You know, being mind and being understanding. You know, I don't think that was necessarily happening in high school for me. I think it just took my… just took who I was and sort of took me to another level, sort of challenged me, stretched me. I often feel I could've graduated from Deerfield and not gone to college, I'm not sure how much of a difference… It was mine. I mean, I was just going through my sophomore year. You have to realize, it was 1966, and the world was sort of getting to be a little topsy-turvy. You know, the drug culture had made [unintelligible – 00:38:38] in Leominster. And, you know, it was just a confused age. I was doing well in school, at least in terms of grades, but I didn't feel I was achieving very much. But I was probably doing well in a group of… really doing all that well. I thought I was just going through the motions, to tell you the truth, and I felt this sense of malaise about it that, you know, that hammer is going to fall here sometime. And you know, I don't like the way this… and, you know, I just started researching prep schools. I just thought I need to get out of here, down to Deerfield. There were kids that I'd gone to school with who had left and gone… More than anything, what happened was I went --when I was feeling this malaise, I just decided to go to the library and pull out catalogs, where I can get some catalogs. And, to tell the truth, they were very exciting. You know, [area in Dover], 17 Deerfield, you know, the idea that you could play sports on any level, you could study subjects that weren't necessarily offered in high school, and I think the idea of being away from home. I wasn't afraid of it because I've, you know, gone to Europe. It was kind of all of those things put together. I mean, my parents were a little bit taken aback, "Why do you want to leave? What's this all about?" But, you know, after going through the process, the tours and all of that, I think they kind of said okay, and so off we went. LINDA ROSENLUND:So you apparently knew… JOHN CLEMENTI: Yeah. But at time it was fairly clear that we could afford it. I think I knew that in my mind. After all, as I said before, we've been going to Italy now for, you know, at that time, seven, eight years, six, seven years. And so I didn't doubt that that was the case, so… LINDA ROSENLUND:… get the sense that your family was very successful and perhaps -- so [unintelligible - 00:40:58] the other students. JOHN CLEMENTI: [Unintelligible - 00:41:01] at Leominster High? I mean, I had that sense, you know, occasionally, but it really wasn't an overriding factor. I mean, I was pretty much of a happy camper in a way. I had a lot of friends, I loved sports. I was on teams with people. I never felt different, I never felt singled out, I never felt exceptional. It was really… as I said before, it was more a question of worrying about sliding down the slippery slope, if you will. Because, you know, I knew friends that, you know, one year were afraid to go to a dance and in the next year were dropping acid. So it became a kind of thing where I really felt that I wasn't going to progress hanging around. I thought I needed a change of venue. You know, I mean, the factual answer is yes. But I never -- it was important in a sense that they monitored my grades and spoke to my teachers and made sure 18 that I was doing what I ought to have been doing. But I think as time went on, as I got into high school, I think their ability to influence what was going on became less and less, simply because the issues I think became more and more complex. And, you know, they were dealing with them was less and less, simply because now instead of talking to a teacher, you have to talk to every one of these teachers and you need to have a better knowledge of what was going on. I think another thing that I've realized quite honestly is I think is the reverse of what you were asking. I was a sophomore in high school. I believe there was a switch for my philosophy of tracking students to a philosophy of open classrooms. And I have been attending school with same group of kids more or less since seventh grade. And as a sophomore, all of a sudden I realized I was in classes with kids that I'd never been in classes with before. And I think I came to the realization, and then I looked around and I thought it was me, and I thought, "Oh, I'm no longer in the top group. I'm now in the lesser group." But then I realized there were another two, three kids that I knew were very bright, that I knew were, you know, smart as anybody in the class, if not smarter, that were with me, but that there were classes where all the kids were bright. I don't know if this is true, but I surmised that if your parents were on the ball, if your parents knew what the score was in school, that they knew who the good teachers were. And along with the program, then you would be one of the guinea pigs in the open classroom. And this is sort of getting back to your question, "Why did you go to Deerfield?" I think what really set me off was an English class that I was in, in which… it was pretty clear that the class remain in the [gamut] from the brightest kids in the school to probably the least talented in the college curriculum. And the class 19 became a series of same kids putting up their hands, coming up with the answer, being ridiculed by the kids that didn't have the answer, who felt insecure and [badly]. And then what would happen is you would just realize this wasn't advancing the knowledge of the class. And so I thought: "If this is the way it's going to be, then it may be time for me to…" that was another; that was a pretty important fact that I neglected to mention, but… I felt badly for the teacher. Because what happened was she just started teaching to the mean. It all fell apart, in my opinion. [Laughter] SPEKAER 1: And I'm talking about… during high school. JOHN CLEMENTI: You know, I hate to speak for him, but wouldn't have surprised me if he did. I think he probably did. LINDA ROSENLUND:Did he push you for an education to go to college, or… JOHN CLEMENTI: Oh, I don't think he ever did. I don't think he ever expected me not to go to college. And by that time, having gone to Deerfield, you know, that was a totally different culture. And, you know, everybody was going to go to college. In fact, the game changed when I went to Deerfield. Another big reason why I went to Deerfield is in those days I really wanted to go to an Ivy League college. Go to on Ivy League college? Well, interestingly, my sophomore year in high school I was on the debate team, and we had a pretty good debating team in those days. And we went to [unintelligible - 00:46:37] which were up at Dartmouth and Hanover. And I remember to this day, because it was in February and it was classically Hanover, snowing all day long. But… I just, you know, I want to do it, this is where I want to go. You know, I want to go here. At that point, I think that kind of finalized the decision to leave Leominster, because my ability to get there would be seriously stained. And so, you know, I started applying to these other places, [unintelligible - 00:47:11] whole 20 thing evolved. My parents had interestingly -- it's funny, because I had a discussion with my dad about it. You know, my dad, his recollection is he sent me there. My recollection is I wanted to go there. Because really, we have no relationship to any of those kinds of schools. Back to funny story. When I… about that time, and it was in the winter, was in February, I think, I had applied to all these schools and I was now on my schedule. And my dad was still working, you know, hands-on. And I'll never forget, we had an interview at Phillips Andover Academy. And my dad was still, you know, he picked me up, he was still dressed in his work clothes. We went to Phillips, sitting in the admission's building. You know, there's old piano, old room, books, and a fireplace roaring. And it was really warm, and dad was just exhausted. And he just fell asleep. Officer was critiquing my [laughter]. And so, you know, that was kind of my recollection of that episode, which now I think is really funny and is really kind of -- but now I think about it, it's like, "Sure, he was tired. The guy was working really, really hard. He was exhausted." I mean, I dragged him out of the plant to come to this… I knew what was going on, you know, in those days. Not then, you know, they didn't know. They kind of got it from other people, it's the kind of deal was, you know, Philly, you know, that kind of thing. And I think in Deerfield they kind of started to get the idea, because Deerfield was the soul, it really still is. It's just, you know, [unintelligible - 00:49:12]. And don't forget, it was 1966. You know, [GI dye] shirts, long hair, the whole bit. Boom, Deerfield, you know? Coats and ties, suits, you know? You think they were kind of blown away by that. I think they thought to themselves, "This is the best thing that ever happened." You know? My mother tells me now that it broke her heart when I left. 21 LINDA ROSENLUND:What were parents' weekends like or parents'…? JOHN CLEMENTI: It was… it was fine. You have to realize, going back, in a way. And so, you know, I think that kind of went away. There's a kid growing up and that's why I see these Hispanic people working here a lot, and I really emphasize. I know what it's like. You know, they want the same things we want. We all want the same things. But Deerfield was… my parents, I think they're very proud of Deerfield. They… it's something I wish they had, gone to public schools, but quite frankly, I just… in this day and age I just never felt… I just didn't feel that public schools were living up to -- I went to Bancroft school in Worcester, and then they went to Deerfield. My girls went to Deerfield and my son is at Deer- -- I have a long Deerfield tradition. LINDA ROSENLUND:You keep the tradition? JOHN CLEMENTI: But I can get them to go elsewhere but they keep following me. So [unintelligible - 00:51:06] letters at Dartmouth. I have senior and freshmen, both of whom went to Deerfield. They've had wonderful careers. Now I have a son, Alex is a freshmen at Deerfield, and… yeah, I think when I went it was $3,700 a year. It really is. It's a… LINDA ROSENLUND:Follow up with you a little bit, then you decided to pursue a law degree? JOHN CLEMENTI: Yeah, I went to law school. You know, it's something I wanted to do from when I was in high school, really. And you know, it was… I went to Boston College Law School. But, you know, I had to decide what I wanted to do—did I want to go to a big city and, you know, could I come back here. I'd been interning here for this firm that I eventually joined. And they liked me and I liked them, and so when it came to, you know, the time to figure out what I wanted to do for a living, I'd lived in Boston at that time for three years. And that was great, but I -- there was a 22 chance to, you know, make an impact going back to my hometown and going to a small town all the time. You know, all the time. And, you know, I think it was just… have a guaranteed job in the city and all that stuff. I thought that that's what I wanted to do. So I joined the law firm and… I enjoyed it and had fun. I liked the people a lot and I liked the law a lot. And it was really a joy with people I met in the law. And at the time I was doing mostly litigation. I was mostly in court doing mostly criminal work. And… that was fun. But at a certain point I realized that's not what I really wanted to do for the rest of my life. And just about at the same time I came to that conclusion, this company, Plastican had been formed and had been a going concern for about… seven or eight years. And… we had a plant; you know, in Leominster, about 70,000 square foot plant, and there was potential to get it bigger and to do other things. But my dad, at that point the jobs and so forth became much more specific in a point became this, "Listen, there's a lot to do here. There's a lot of potential here, but I'm at the age where I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to go [unintelligible - 00:53:56] all over the United States to do what we need to do." And so, I thought about it and realized that it was exciting, it was a lot of upside potential, and so I left the law and joined the company, and in sort of a COO, beneath my father. And the first task at hand was to set up some sort of a operation in the west, and so I went out and scouted the west and decided upon Dallas. And we… at the warehouse operation there we built a plant, begin to manufacture product there, and established a plant in Dallas in Texas. That was in 1978. And off we went. And then, a few years later, we realized that we had a plant in the east, a plant in the west, but there was a lot of business in the southeast. Florida 23 was a growing state. Georgia, the Carolinas. We really needed a place, a plant there. And so I, you know, we did the same thing, and I went down to and scouted the Southeast and came upon Macon, Georgia after much research and lots of trips to Georgia. In the meantime we add it on to the plant in Dallas, and since add it on to the plant in Macon. And then three years ago we built, we purchased a plant in Phoenix, Arizona, and so now we have a plant in Arizona. As for the Plastican side, we have four plants, and we're selling people coast to coast, so to speak. LINDA ROSENLUND:Now, you get an experience with the plastic industry? JOHN CLEMENTI: Oh, yeah. You know, in high school was the summer job, you know, was… you know, before it was time to go to Italy, in June, July, we worked in the plant, and so… but it was all about in terms of how it works and what you do. I had experience with that. I was here all the time in the summer, so I knew everybody and I knew everything that was going on. Well, you know, that's interesting. Yes, because I did have a part time job after school working at a local accountant's kind of doing arithmet- that was sort of after school from, like, 2:30 to 5:00. So I guess the answer is yes. I don't know how that happened, but I did have a part-time job, yeah. I think it was just the winter, because I didn't play any sports in the winter. LINDA ROSENLUND:… that you were [soft]? JOHN CLEMENTI: No. To be honest with you, I don't remember. I think I probably wanted the money. You know, in high school you could use a little more money. Yeah, I played baseball. It's the sport I cared about most. And I played football too. And that was another reason actually that I went to Deerfield, because Deerfield had great baseball, got my hand at another level. And so that was another impetus. 24 I think they just assumed that that's what kids do. It's interesting because… my parents never saw me play. You know, my dad was always working and my mother, you know, didn't really care, which was fine with me. And… it's another story. My dad saw me play the last game I ever played on the parents' weekend, right before graduation. And it was interesting, because he… you know, he was sitting in the stands and so forth and so on. And… so, we played the game and that was at that. After the game he said to me, "You know, I was talking to this really nice man in the stands, and he said that he thought you were a pretty good player." "Well, that's nice," I said. He said, "Well, you know, it's interesting. His name was DiMaggio." Well, it wasn't Joe DiMaggio, and I don't know if he was related to him. As it turns out, it was Dom DiMaggio, who played for the Red Sox, played centerfield for the Red Sox, and his son Paul was in my class. And, you know, it was kind of funny that, you know, Dom DiMaggio tells my father that kid's pretty good. Who's that kid? And he says, "That's my kid." And it was the only game he ever saw me play. And to this day, I have this sort of… conflict, you know, when I see, you know, soccer moms and little league parents and so forth. I think myself, all the fun I had playing, my parents weren't there. And I'm thinking, "You know, maybe I had a lot of fun because they weren't there." And I didn't have to do anything for anybody, you know? You know, I played, and whatever would happen, happened. And inevitably I had fun, and that was at the end of it. You know, I didn't have any dad telling me what I should have done or mom screaming at me for doing something or -- you know, it was kind of -- I left it there. So when I talk to parents now about that whole thing, you know, who feel compelled to see every single game, the every single practice. And I personally don't feel that way; I just don't 25 feel that way. I go to watch my kid play football, but, you know, if I don't go I don't feel it as a big deal. I don't have to do it. You know, that's another story. And so, the Dom DiMaggio thing was really, was a fun thing, to this day. LINDA ROSENLUND:Did you ever feel like you could go beyond? JOHN CLEMENTI: As I got older I realized how far I was away from going on. At Deerfield I played with guys that went to the major leagues. And, you know, I realized what the difference is. There's a difference, you know? [Laughter] LINDA ROSENLUND:… like who? Who played in the major league? JOHN CLEMENTI: Well, there's a guy who's now the coach at Brandeis, a guy named Pete Varney who's a footnote in history because he was the fellow that caught the famous pass in the Harvard-Yale game, 29-29 tie with the… the headline in the school paper was: "Harvard defeats Yale: 29-29." They scored I think, 26 points in, like, three minutes to tie the game, and he caught the extra point that tied the game with no time left on the clock. So Pete Varney was a footnote in history. But he played for the Chicago Red Sox and, you know, he's a big, strapping guy that could really hit. And the, [Ralph Teiner], the announcer of the [unintelligible – 01:00:45] for the Giants was at Deerfield. You know, just the slew of kids. A kid named Willie Roberts who played for the Houston Oilers and footballer Gary Bonner who said, "All the Russian records are…" you know, you can tell. I mean, there's a difference. I wasn't a very good athlete. I was a good player because I really liked the game and I knew how to play it, but I didn't have the ability to become [laughter]. I wish I did, but I didn't. LINDA ROSENLUND:And getting back, we talked about this just a little bit before I turned the recorder on.26 JOHN CLEMENTI: Oh, well. I mean, I ask the same question you were asking me. Because their kids, you know, they were… people from our village, from Corfinio, that are living here in Leominster who gave their children Italian names—Sandro, Pulino, Vega, Rosana—I mean, real Italian names, which are lovely and I love -- you know, I love them. And I said, "You know what's this, John? Why not Giovanni?" And dad and mother both said, "No! We named you John on purpose so you wouldn't get stuck with one of those names." Kind of interesting that they were thinking that way. To me it was kind of surprising that they were thinking that, because, you know, I think about it now, my dad was 22 and my mom was 21. It took a little bit of thinking, you know? No, I was born… LINDA ROSENLUND:But coming in, I thought you were born in Italy. JOHN CLEMENTI: Well, that's kind of interesting the way life works too, because she is very similar to me in the sense that her parents immigrated at just about the same time. And they were born in Latvia and were displaced people because they were invaded by the Russians, and then by the Germans. And they were taken to war camps in Germany. And her parents met in the war camp in Germany. All of these people who were displaced people were given the option of returning to their homeland or [remain there]. And because Latvia had been occupied by the Soviet Union, by the Russians, the word had gotten out as to what life was like on the other side. They decided not to go back to Latvia, and I guess were able to immigrate to the United States through the auspices of a church group, essentially as refugees, but even more so. So my wife was born in Germany. They didn't emigrate until… they immigrated though. It's interesting, you know, marrying a Mediterranean, marrying a [unintelligible - 01:03:52], 27 essentially in Nordic culture. But I think the common bind, you know, bound, being bound together by the immigrant thing, we understand a lot of the same things. You know, the bit about all of that stuff. All of the things, the feeling awkward, the sharing understanding of those things. Grew up in New Jersey. And it's really funny, you know, I've… her dad was a very successful contractor. And… she and her siblings all went to private schools. She went to private school. It was sort of like the same thing. The same thing happened, you know. You think you're unique and you realize you're far from it. LINDA ROSENLUND:How did you meet her? JOHN CLEMENTI: Blind date. Blind date. It was the Feast of St. Anthony in the North End. And law school at the time and a friend of mine who was living in Boston who said, "J, you know, my girlfriend has a friend, you know, up from New Jersey," and, you know, "would you like to go out with her?" "Sure, why not?" In those days, and I guess still today, every week in the summer there's some feast or another, and I go up there. It was a bit of a happening, and so… we had a blind date, and that was that. LINDA ROSENLUND:[Unintelligible – 01:05:29] JOHN CLEMENTI: Yes, it's really… I think back now, and it really is. Because you know, immigration, from Western Europe was over for the most part, by then. You know, there were very few immigrants that came to this country, you know, much after, 1948, '49. I meant, from Western Europe. I mean, they came from other places, from South America and Asia, Africa, but not many from Western Europe. So, it was -- yeah, it was… I think so. Yeah, definitely. You know, I guess, of the heart, it doesn't work that way. [Laughter] LINDA ROSENLUND:And a different religion. 28 JOHN CLEMENTI: Yes, she's a Lutheran. Yeah, I think it… my parents were remarkably disciplined in bearing, in that regard. And so were hers. They were both smart enough to know that, you know, if this has been what's… you know, go along and let's respect the choices and… you know. You know, it's been fine. It's really interesting. They feel both. As I say, my oldest one speaks Italian. My middle one really looks Italian. And my little guy, you know, I think he's at that age where, you know, he doesn't really feel -- but, we went to Latvia last summer, visited Latvia for a week. And it was great because I wanted to go, I wanted to see one of these former Soviet countries and see what life is like there. But it was good for them to see where their grandparents came from and, you know, to really get -- when I say, you know, they've been to both places and I think it's fair to say they feel a real affinity for both places. It really was… the impression you come away with is that it's a country that's really trying hard. Very interesting. You see construction cranes everywhere in the capital city, which is Riga. And very interesting phenomenon there. The country is divided in half ethnically. Half of them are ethnic Russians and half of them are ethnic Latvians. Who are, the Latvians are basically Teutonic in what they are, you know? They're very Germanic. And the Russians are Russian. And there's a real split there. And there's a great deal of resentment left over from the Soviet occupation. And there's resentment both ways. And the leadership of the country is very interesting, because when the country was liberated, children of immigrants -- and immigrants could come back as citizens. And so the prime minister of Latvia is a Canadian woman. And all of the signs in Latvia are written in three languages: Latvian first, English second, and Russians are not too thrilled about that. But the Latvians understand that, 29 you know, English is the -- it's really interesting. I mean, it's just, watching the country develop. You know, the average income there is, like, $250 a month, you know? They email some in Latvia. They're fully aware of everything that's going on in our culture, movies, CNN. Kind of, like… community is in sort of a weak fog, everything that's happened in the last 20 years up an away, and kind of bringing the country into the modern period without having to go through all the baggage of what has gone before. So, it's a real eye opener because all of the vestiges of Soviet domination are still there. I mean, these horribly snotty apartment buildings that are so depressing. You know, it's depressing architecture. And on the other side, avant-garde, hard music. It's a country that is leaping, you know, just jumping right out of the '40s into the, you know, the 2000s without anything in between. And it's happening. LINDA ROSENLUND:Are you hoping to do business…? JOHN CLEMENTI: Honestly, we don't export much of our products, so I never really thought -- on a personal level, no. I think it's just the… it's interesting. You fly through Frankfurt, boom. You know? Connect to Riga. Yeah, it's only an hour. Then from Riga we went to Stockholm, Sweden, which is only an hour. And there's a flight to Estonia. LINDA ROSENLUND:From Stockholm? JOHN CLEMENTI: Mm-hmm. Probably. We were in Stockholm this summer ourselves, we were in June, been there in June. LINDA ROSENLUND:Is there actually, by Stockholm, it was the… JOHN CLEMENTI: Yes, I was surprised. I don't know why I was surprised, but Stockholm just impressed me massively. It's a really beautiful, beautiful city, very impressive. You know, they have that magnificent park across the bridge, really impressive to me. LINDA ROSENLUND:… all of a sudden they've been able to…30 JOHN CLEMENTI: Infiltrate [laughter]. You know, that's a funny kind of situation. By the time that I became a member of the club, I think there was no longer any need to infiltrate. I think that that had changed completely. I remember a very dear friend of mine who was a member at the time—I was a lot younger—asking me if I wanted to be a member. Really hadn't given it much thought, and I said no. And since I've spoken to Jewish people, it was a real thing there. You know, there was, there were clear notions of the time when a Jewish person couldn't be a member. And I think some of those people sort of said, "Well, you know, that was then. This is now." So, you know, to me, I kind of view it as a… doesn't have nearly as social significance it might have had 20 years ago, or 25 years ago, when it really [unintelligible - 01:12:13]. It's no longer relevant to me. I don't think it's any longer a symbol of anything. I don't think so. LINDA ROSENLUND:No? JOHN CLEMENTI: No, I really don't. No. I think those days are long gone, honestly. You know, they may exist somewhere, you know? In the South, or you know, New York. Maybe it's important what club do you belong, but I don't think it's important at all. SPEKAER 1: … product these days at Plastican? JOHN CLEMENTI: Five-gallon bucket is and always has been the most important product. It's the workhorse of the rigid packaging industry. You know, we package everything from swimming pool chlorine, driveway sealer, paint, driveway, drywall compound, detergents, industrial chemicals, you name it. And back then it's five-gallon buckets. So it's a staple item. Lots of them, but that's the good news. The bad news is there are lots of us doing it, and so it's a very competitive business. You know, technology has always been an important part of what we do, and so…we try to keep on the cutting edge in terms 31 of technology. And only can make them quickly but also to make them well, so that the quality of the product is consistent over time. Packaging products get transported vast distances, and so it's important that the seal is really good and that the product is real good. We purchase recycled resins, and so we manufacture product out of recycled plastic, reclaim containers from customers that want us to so that we can assist in closing the circle. We have a very interesting product, which is the curbside recycling bin, the blue boxes you see on the side of the road. We manufacture those as well, and we manufacture those for the state of Massachusetts. And what we do there is we use recycled resin to manufacture the recycling bins, and so it's kind of -- well, I don't know. The way we kind of divided the tasks in the end, I basically run the day-to-day operations. I'm [unintelligible - 01:14:42] marketing personnel, human resources, purchasing, for the most part, the day-to-day operations of things. My dad, on the other hand, is concerned with things like capital purchases, big machines, molds. And he purchases raw material, resins. You know, the raw material. That's kind of the way we divide things. So, you know, the day-in-day-out headaches are mine. And [unintelligible - 01:15:19] aspect is his. That way, you know, we're constantly talking, so it's… we're always engaged in a dialogue about how we should do this how we should do that. And when one of us is on vacation or away, obviously the other takes up the slack. You know, I think it will continue to be more competitive going forward, you know? With globalization and consolidation, there are fewer and fewer companies to sell to. And this is an issue, that more and more purchasing power. And so the only alternative is to become more and more competitive. So… you know, I will be focusing our efforts on ways in which 32 we can make the company more competitive and more user-friendly to the buyers. One of the things about consolidation is with the added mass these companies are adding, what they do is they expect their vendors to provide more and more by way of service. Whereas you might have had good quality and good price, I think going forward that might not be enough. We have some products for the swimming pool industry in particular that are really innovative. "How I get these darn things off?" And with consumers [unintelligible - 01:16:50] is that you have to make sure that they don't come off. And so if you run into a conflict -- but we think we designed some products that make it easier to take the lid off and put it back on while making sure that nothing leaks in the meantime. So that's where -- I think that's the most exciting item that we're introducing. For those who have a one-gallon paint can, that has revolutionized things as well. LINDA ROSENLUND:Packaging? I mean, do you do everything on…? JOHN CLEMENTI: R&D? Marketing, mostly. So yeah, I will do that here. So this is our latest baby. LINDA ROSENLUND:Is that on the market yet? JOHN CLEMENTI: No. Not yet. LINDA ROSENLUND:… revolution. I think the other… JOHN CLEMENTI: Maybe. [Laughter] LINDA ROSENLUND:Well, you never know… JOHN CLEMENTI: You never know. SPEKAER 1: Is security an issue here? JOHN CLEMENTI: In terms of intellectual property? Yeah, it's an issue everywhere. So far so good, though. I mean, our products have been patented. We spend a lot of time and effort. I think we're pretty secure, but who knows? Here, I think in Plastican we have about 300. I think companywide we -- I think we have a very good 33 track record. I mean, I'd bet that fact that four employees that are going to be celebrating 30 years with us in a couple of months. We have very little turnover management, almost none. As far as our shift employees are concerned, the day shifts are very stable. It's really the -- it goes with the nature of the beast. When you're running 24 hours a day, there are some people that would only work 11 to 7 and 11. And there are other people that would never do it. The toughest shift tends to be 3 to 11, because it's kind of in the middle of the day and… that shift. But other than that, we're pretty fortunate with turnover here. Yeah, I think it's safe to say that we're no different from any other manufacturers in the Commonwealth. We have a lot of people of Hispanic -- I think we have a cross section of the people who live here. LINDA ROSENLUND:Can you mention that again? JOHN CLEMENTI: Yeah. Well, we have a lot of Hispanic employees. I'd say it's probably the major ethnic group that we have. And we also have a lot of Asians—Koreans, Vietnamese, Hmong. And so it's pretty much the reflection of the people that live in our area. I would hope so. I'd like to think that we've give people opportunities to advance themselves, you know, professionally, economically. I too provide opportunities to people. As I said before, we've been fortunate in that our recruitment and retention, we've just been very successful people come here. But I think everybody wants to leave a legacy of fairness and opportunity, and I hope to do the same./AT/lj/es
The Mercury November, 1909 HELP THOSE WHO HELP US. The Intercollegiate Bureau of Academic Costume. Cotrell & Leonard, ALBANY, N. Y. Mak^« °f CAPS AND GOWNS To Gettysburg College, Lafayette, Lehigh, Dickinson, State College, Univ. of PeMi -ylvania, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Wellesley, Bryn Mawr and the others. Class Contracts a Specialty. Correct Hoods of Degrees To The Class of '10. We have begun our college campaign for next Spring and Summer. Over 25,000 employers look to Hapgoods for their men in sales, offices and technical positions in all departments. Most of these Arms use college men. They arrange with us to cover the en ire college world for them. We have a unique preposition of in mediate interest to any college man who will be open for a propo-sition. Let us tell you about it. Write to-day. TXL _,_^ _j c^ 17^ ,-~ " TIM JVJtTJOJVJJ, ORGJJYMZJITtOJV Of HfipGrOQEltB, BMUMM- BUOHMUBS. Commonwealth Trust Building, Philadelphia, Pa. HOTEL GETTYSBURG, Headquarters for BANQUETS. Electric Lights, Steam Heat, All Conveniences. Free Bus to and from station. Convenient for Commencement Visitors. RATES $2.00 PER DAY. -/i/very G-ttaartea. B. B. Cqwoll, Proprietor. All our drugs aud chemicals are sold to you under a positive guarantee, pure and full strength. H. C. LANDAU, DRUGGIST. EVERYTHING A FIRST CLASS Drug Store should have Opposite Eagle Hotel. lfm0Vmmt*f^mt^mftlwt^n GETTYSBURG COLLEGE Gettysburg, Pa. - LIBRARY - I WE RECOMMEND THESE FIRMS. Established 18S7 by Allen Walton. ALLEN K. WALTON, Pres. and Treas. ROBT. J. WALTON, Supt. HUMMELSTOWN BROWN STONE COMPANY QUARRYMEN and Manufacturers of BUILDING STONE, SAWED FLAGGING and TILE. Waltonville, Duphin Co., Pa. CONTRACTORS FOR ALL KINDS OF CUT STONE WORK Telegraph and Express Address, Brownstone, Pa. Parties visiting quarries will leave cars at Brownstone Station on the P. & R. R. R. For Artistic Photographs —GO TO— TIPTON The Leader in PHOTO FASHIONS Frames and Passapartouts Made to Order. D. J. REILE, Clothing, Gent's Furnishings Sole Agent for the CRAWFORD SHOES, 13-15 Ohambersburg St. Come and Have a Good Shave or Hair Cut —AT— HARRY B. SEFTON'S BARBER SHOP 35 Baltimore St. Barber's Supplies a Specialty. Also choice line of Cigars. R. E. ZINN & BRO. DEALERS IN Groceries and Choice Provisions. Carlisle St., Gettysburg. THE GETTYSBURG DEPARTMENT STORE Successors to the L. M. Alleman Hardware Co., Manufacturer's Agent and Jobber of ' HARDWARE, OILS, PAINTS AND QUEENSWARE, GETTYSBURG, PA. The only Jobbing House in Adams County. PATRONIZE OUR ADVERTISERS. * 2 a, ft ft * « « » » *w ft *« a * * «« ft * ft ft .-■> a» * « Seligniqq ARE GETTYSBURG'S MOST RELIABLE TAILORS And show their appreciation of your patronage by giving you full value for your money, and closest attention to the wants of every customer. Give Them a « »»« *««* » « ft Your Patronage * « *»« » a »« »a * » «» ft ** ft »« « « ft «««»« * « ft « e» ft « ** »« « «« «« « ft * » « ft »* PATRONIZE OUR ADVERTISERS. A Special Proposition Is open for the first person ID any com-munity who will deal with us for a Piano or Organ. WEAVER ORGANS AND PIANOS have no question mark to the quality. I IIII I .__ _ _ Z WEAVER ORGAN AND PIANO CO., MANUFACTURERS, I YORK, PA , U S A. MAIL THIS COUPON TO US. Send me special proposition for the purchase of a Piano. Name Address m * .-I-. •I" •■!•■ T\ •*■ ± Students' Headquarters —FOR— HATS, SHOES, AND GENT'S FURNISHINGS. Sole Agent for WALK -OVER SHOES ECKERT'S STORE. Prices Always Right He Lutheran PubliGatiori Society No. 1424 Arch Street, PHILADELPHIA, PA. Acknowledged Headquarters for anything and everything in the way of Books for Churches, Colleges, Families and Schools, and literature for Sunday Schools. PLEASE REMEMBER That by sending your orders to us you help build up and develop one of the church in-stitutions with pecuniary ad-vantage to yourself. Address HENRY 8. BONER, Supt. THE [UIERCORV The Literary Journal of Gettysburg College. VOL. XVII GETTYSBURG, PA., NOVEMBER, 1909 No. 6 CONTENTS. THE WBONG OP WASTE 2 DAVID M. CRIST, '10. FEESCOING A LOST ART 3 ELMER STOUFFER, '11. A HALLOWE'EN STOEY 7 SAMUEL BOWER, '10. THE VOTEE'S DOMINANT PBINCIPLES: WHAT THEY SHOULD BE 12 ROT V. DERR, '10. IS GEEMANY A MENACE TO THE WORLD'S PEACE? 15 C. M. ALLABACH, '11. A NAEEOW ESCAPE 16 R. L. MCNALLY, '13. THE "BACK HOME" BOY 20 EDWIN C. MORROW, '12. THE EVOLUTION OP THE BEAST 22 EDWARD N. FRYE, '10. THE SPIEIT OP THE PLACE 24 HARVEY S. HOSHOUR, '10. EDITORIALS '. 29 EXCHANGES 31 GETTYSBURG COLLEGE Gettysburg, Pa. | - LIBRARY - I THE MERCURY. THE WRONG OF WASTE. DAVID M. CRIST, '10. jO the contemplative mind one of the saddest things in the world is the waste that is going on, and has gone on ever since civilization dawned. Much of this waste is wretched, needless, wicked; it means human efforts thrown away; it is one form of homicide for it sacrifices life and the material that life thrives on, and thus it hampers progress. What does a grain of corn amount to? Nothing, we hear the wasteful man say. Yet the secretary of agriculture of Missouri computes that one grain on every ear of corn grown in his State alone would add one hundred thousand dollars to the wealth of the State each year. We have all been told what a large sum the saving of a few cents a day will amount to, if allowed to roll up for a period of years, yet we all go through life really unmindful of the possi-bilities there are in such little things. A Kansas statistician has recently figured that the men of that State are constantly wearing on their coat sleeves eighty thousand dollars worth of buttons which serve no earthly use. It is easy enough, of course, to over do economy and make it ridiculous, and it is often most difficult to say whether a given policy is wasteful or economical. In this country our railroads work their locomotives very hard, and wear them out in a few years, whereas in England locomotives are used very carefully, and are kept in service several times as long. The English blame our railroads for being wasteful in this, whereas our au-thorities hold that it is better to get the best wear out of any ma-chine in a reasonable time, and then scrap-heap it, and replace it with something newer and better. Large scale producers such as the Carnegie Steel Company of Pittsburg, have owed their success in no small degree to their lavish expenditures, or industrial experiments, and for the in-stallation of new machinery as soon as its superiority to that in use has been demonstrated. So ideas to what is waste will differ. Unquestionably we are wasting our coal, oil, natural gas, and THE MERCURY. 6 timber supplies in this country, but under the conditions it does not pay to husband these material resources. A few years ago the world became alarmed because its fuel supply seemed to be coming to an end. Now, we are harnessing the rivers, water-falls, and even the glaciers, and making them do much of the work that coal hitherto has done. There is no small doubt that before the coal supply is ex-hausted the world will be so completely electrified that the use of coal will have become obsolete. The waste of timber is more serious, and yet as lumber rises in price other materials will be developed to take its place, witness the present rapid introduc-tion of concrete for building purposes. This country would not be what it is if it had been developed UDcler such a saving policy as has necessarily dominated the rise of European nations, so it would be well for us to remember the words of Benjamin Franklin when he said: "What maintains one vice would bring up two children. Eemember many a little makes a nickle. and farther, beware of little expenses; a small leak will sink a great ship." FRESCOING A LOST ART. ELMER STOUFFER, '11. EW people realize that the frescos which they see on the walls of buildings are the remnants of a once great art. An art which for the number of men who were engaged at it and scope of application never had an equal. The history of this great form of art is long and of itself interesting to read. It is not the purpose in this article to give the history beyond what is necessary to the illustration of the subject in hand. It shall be our purpose to discuss the art as we know it, and the methods of the frescoer of to-day. It is claimed by many that the art of frescoing was known to the ancient Egyptians, but this is doubtful. If they knew any-thing at all about it, it could not have been more than enough THE MERCURY. •to cover the walls of their houses with the crudest and coarsest kinds of earth colors mixed with water. True one can find buildings decorated in patterns which are supposed to be genu-ine reproductions of ideas found on the walls of Egyptian ruins, but the methods of getting these actual designs are never told. The whole is fanciful and not certain enough to receive much consideration. The Greeks were familiar with the art of fres-coing but the extent to which they developed the art is uncer-tain. The excavations of Schlieman have brought forth some old decorated pieces of walls which were thought to be frescoes, but careful examination has shown them to be mere earth colors applied in various designs. The Hebrews it is certain knew nothing of frescoing. It was not until the beginning of the Christian era that the art rose to its fullest development. The Christian artist wanted an art which would properly express the emotions. The stirring scenes of the early Christian times were the subjects for the •church decorator to work upon. The art which he would use must be able to express faith, hope, joy, sorrow, grief, pain and things of that nature. Sculpture, the art of the Greeks, would not answer his purpose for that is essentially an art of repose. Frescoing seemed the only one capable of answering his purposes so he employed it. Even then the early decorator was held in check by ecclesiastical interference. In decorating the churches he was not permitted, even though he had the impulse, to use any type not traditional. For this reason we find nearly all the fres-coes of this period consist of the gaunt, pinched bodies of an-chorites and saints. In the sixteenth century this art reached its highest state of development. In this period some of the world's most famous frescoers lived, and some of the most noted frescoers were executed. Several of the works produced in this period are extant to this day. The wave of Iconoclast fanaticism which swept over Europe in the sixteenth century struck the art a blow from which it has never wholly recovered. In England nearly all the paintings were destroyed. In some churches they were merely defaced, hut in those churches where the frescoes could not be destroyed without permanently injuring the buildings, the despoilers cov- THE MERCURY. «red them up with lime. On the continent of Europe the hatred was not so intense, and it is doubtful whether any works of real value were destroyed. It is true, however, that when the Icono-clastic wave had swept away, the art was practically dead. In America very little is known about frescoing. Our near-est approach to it are the distemper paintings with which we decorate our theatres and churches. Several reasons might be mentioned for this, but the most reasonable seems to be that Americans are too impatient to apply themselves to a trade in which the first and chief requisite is painstaking precision. The Americans as a class are too much in a hurry to take the time which it is necessary to do a good work of frescoing. The aver-age American does not care what a piece of work costs but he invariably does want his work done at once. So little interest is taken in the art in America that not one color manufacturer is to be found who so much as manufacture the kind of color which mural decorators use. The American decorator must depend upon the shops of Germany for the colors which he uses. German workshops also supply America with her supply of deco-rators. Frescoing as clone in former times required a great deal more skill than it does to-day. The work was all done while the plaster was still soft. The decorator decided in the morning just about how much surface he wished to cover that day. The plasterer, who worked right with him, then finished that much. With a sharp pointed awl or some other instrument the deco-rator then marked the design in the plaster, and proceeded to his task. Sometimes a small design of the work in hand was made and kept lying by to refer to in case the decorator became puz-zled as to how to proceed. The necessity of this can readily be seen when one remembers that some of the great works of this kind were fifteen and sometimes twenty years in the accomplish-ment. If all which was marked could not be done in the day the plasterer cut the unfinished portion off and they began all over again. An almost perfect knowledge of pigments was ab-solutely essential to the decorator of the old time. Lime in dry-ing causes many colors to fade and some to become darker. It was necessary for the mechanic to know just what effect the lime tf**ftiufvrxv GETTYSBURG COLLEGE * Gettysburg, Pa. LIBRARY 10 THE MEBCURY. "An unlucky spot," sighed Proud Patrick. "He ain't the first, nor thirteenth to be tuk tar." Hattie came running in with the holy water bottle and Mis-tress Proud Patrick eagerly bathed poor Oiney's head. As the cold drops fell showering upon his face Oiney winced in spite of himself. "The color is comin' to his cheeks," said Hattie as she knelt over him solicitously. "The fire is warmin' him. He's comin' roun' all right." "God be thanked for holy water bottle said Mrs. Proud Pat-rick. "Let's raise him up a bit," said Del. "An' a drop of nice warm sweet milk with a pinch o' ginger and sugar might do the poor fello' good," said Hattie. "Bether couldn't be," said Del. "An' a bowl o' tea," added Chris. "An' a drop o' spirits," said Joe. At this insinuation a perceptible glow over-spread the features of the unconscious one and to the delight of Del and eve^one there, a sigh escaped his lips. "God be thanked," said Hattie. Del bent over his patient and softly whispered, "Oiney." Oiney slowly opened his eyes and looked wonderingly and in-quiringly about him. "Del—is—is—thet—you ?" "Yis, yis, me darlint." "Del—where an' where can I be?" "Make yer min' aisy, ye are in a dacent house an' with dacent folks. Mister Proud Patrick and Mistress and Hattie McPher-son. Del then asked for a drop of whiskey and tried to persuade Oiney to take it but he refused. "Just a drop," said Del. "Only a toothful," said Mrs. Proud Patrick," and take it as medicine. It'll send the blood through yer veins." But Oiney looked gratefully at Mrs. Proud Patrick and ten-derly at Hattie, but still refused to touch the whiskey. The patient grew rapidly stronger on the beef tea which was THE MEKCURY. 11 tendered by loving hands and thanked the whole family for the trouble they had gone to in his behalf. "But ah, ye knows I can't be kapin' ye dacent folk out o' bed all night—it's almost mornin' now." "Oh, that's all right," volunteered Hattie. "It's no bother an' as to me uncle an' aunt, there, they can go to bed any time now seein' ye are on the fair way to mendin' yerself; an' me an' Eosie-an' Matthew 'ill tarry a while an' git ye somethin' to eat." "Uncle," she continued, "you an' me aunt can now take yer-selves off to bed seein' poor ill Oiney here is gettin' along bet-ter. Myself an' Eosie an' Matthew 'ill take care of him jes as good as if you was here." So with more thanks Oiney bade them good night and wished them a sound sleep and pleasant dreams, and assured them he would never forget their timely generosity. Then Hattie warmed some sweet milk and supported Oiney while he drank it. He was soon sufficiently strengthened to make his way to the fireside with the help of Hattie and Eosie, where he and Hattie sat down together. Oh, I'm ever so glad you're comin' roun' so fast," Said Hattie. "Faith an' I know the doctor I'm thankin' for the same," re-plied Oiney, his eyes beaming upon her. "Och, don't bother me Oiney, it's a poet you should a' been born—you've a tongue as sweet as any poet's." "Well, it's no poet you should a' been born, darlin' but in the Garden of Aiden." "Array, go way with ye." "Yis. in the Garden of Aiden, when man was alone an' com-fortless." "But the Bible never mentioned Adam takin' 'fever gortach," and Oiney reflected. "Oh, Adam would a' got it some how if he had a thot that it would a brot you in its wake." "Houl on Oiney. Take yer arm away out o' that. Take it away. Tre' ain't no danger o' my takin' waikness—no fear of it." "An' thr' all blamin' poor Adam 'cause he ate the apple"— went on Oiney, philosophical!}', gazing into the fire, still keeping ^■^■i^^n^^^^^^^^^^^H 12 THE MERCURY. his arm across her as if absentmindedly. "I know well if I was Adam an' some people I know was Eve, an' that if this partick-ler Eve offered me the same size o' rat pizen and sayed, Here Adam, my sweet, take this, its good, I'd swallowed it an' swared it was honey." "My, what a nice fellow you'd make for the lucky woman that gits ye," said Hattic. "But will ye take away yerself an' take yer arm out o' thet." "Oh," said Oiney in surprise. "Is that where my arm is?" Yet absentmindedly he went on philosophizing upon man's lonely lot had not God given him lovely woman to be a joy and a blessing forever. Del whiled away the early morning hours for Eosie, the maid, and poor Chris and Joe Eegan smoked their pieces of pipe. When the gray dawn began to filter through the blackness of the night, Hattie and Eosie who now had to begin their day's work, bade their sweethearts a merry good-bye after promising to meet them on Sunday evening at the Crooked Bridge. THE VOTER'S DOMINANT PRINCIPLES SHOULD BE. WHAT THEY ROY V. DERR, '10. .NDIVIDUAL right of franchise is the heart of a demo-cratic government. The stability and perpetuity of a nation such as ours depend upon the righteous use of the ballot-box j while corruption and dissolution are the fruit of its abuse. The right to vote becomes a cherished privi-lege by the young man as he approaches twenty-one. At this point a searching question confronts him. Will he be influenced by seductive tradition and paternal inheritance? Will he con-tinue to cast his vote as father always did? Or will he permit his privilege to be directed by certain guiding principles? This is the vital question. When one thinks of the untutored multi-tudes who become the prey of scheming politicians, it becomes an THE MERCURY. 13 important question. But what should these dominant motives, of action be? If our voter is a man of any education or good judgment, he will seek to have a general knowledge of the country's condition and needs. He aims to know the issues at stake, and the plat-form of his chosen party with regard to them. Why ? That he may decide whether the candidate in question is fully qualified for the position. In other words he will endeavor to vote intel-ligently. Not merely boasting a long ancestry who were stal-wart Democrats or life-long Eepublicans. Very often such a spirit is but ignorant pride and betrays the lack of intelligence and reason. The voter should not only be able to state his party,, but also to tell why it is his preference. But the careful voter will not stop with an investigation into the ability of the candidate to fill the duties of office. He goes further and deeper. He will seek to know the aspiring office seeker as a man. What is his character? A man of self-con-trol and integrity ? Will he prove faithful to the trust ? These questions must be answered affirmatively by the conscientious voter. Strict sense of civic duty demands nothing less. The loyal citizen will not cast his vote for incompetent or unworthy men out of mere favor or friendly acquaintance. To do so weak-ens the dictates of his moral conscience. The highest motives should control our franchise; the prosperity of the State, the-welfare of the community, and the best interests' of all concerned. This is true loyalty and genuine patriotism. Above all, for the thoughtful man the dominant principle will be party subordinate to the man. Some one may ask would not such universal independent voting destroy political parties? They are essential to counter-balance one another in government. In answer the true voter will use his influence in securing the best men on the party ticket of his preference, if for some reason these are not chosen, but undesirable nominees instead, the strict sense of civic duty will compel him to refuse to vote for those men. Partisanship must bow before right and duty. Prejudice and tradition must yield to justice and intelligence. It is bet-ter to cut one's ticket and prove traitor to one's party than to iise one's franchise in voting for incompetent or unworthy men. Then he will have nothing to regret. L GETTYSBURG COLLEGEI Gettysburg, Pa. LIBRARY ^^^■^^^^B^^^H 14 THE MERCURY. Who is to blame for corruption in politics? For partisan legislation and bad government? Those holding office we say. But our nation is a democracy! We boast of the rule of the-people! The boomerang springs back upon the voter himself. Corrupt legislation reflects itself upon the public at large. If office holders prove unloyal to their country's trust, it shows that the voters were not careful enough to elect the best men. This situation is but a practical application of the fable in which the indulgent master gives shelter, under his tent, to the imploring ass who in turn ungratefully kicks him out! What, then, should be the voter's dominant principles? To serve his country and State, not only party and self. To know the needs and conditions of his nation or community. To elect the man best fitted to fill the position, that is the man of capabil-ity and character. The former involves the ability to discharge his duties well and efficiently. The latter includes those quali-ties of honesty and integrity as will enable the office holder to stand fearlessly against bribery, partiality or injustice. Such is the type of man whom the true voter will strive to elect. So long as the right of franchise is jealously guarded and highly prized, there will be no need to fear the downfall of our repub-lic. But she shall ascend higher as a moving power in the eyes of the civilized world. Her destiny will not approach soon, but with the oncoming years, she shall exert an untold influence-among the nations of the world. THE MERCURY. 15 IS GERMANY A MENACE TO THE WORLD'S PEACE ? C. M. ALLABACH, '11. T can hardly be denied by those who have noticed the trend of international politics that Germany is the greatest obstacle to the world's peace to-day. This has become strikingly evident in recent years. Diplomatic relations between the English and Germans have been strained for more than a decade. The famous Kruger tele-gram of 1896, the intense commercial rivalry, the hostile attitude of the German people during the Boer War, the biting criticism of the press, and finally, the manifest intention of Germany to wrest from Great Britain her maritime supremacy, have all com-bined to make the situation critical. To England, this mari-time supremacy is a matter of life and death; to Germany, it is an object of mere desire or ambition. Examples of German aggressiveness are numerous. The first American experience of it was in the Samoan Islands in 1888, and a second in 1898, when Germany sent a powerful fleet to the Philippine Islands. Japan felt it in 1895 when Germany joined Russia and France in forcing her to recede from the Liao-Tung Peninsula which bore no small weight in furthering and hasten-ing the outbreak of the Russo-Japanese War. All Europe and America was unfavorably impressed by the attitude of the Ger-mans in the Boxer uprising. Then, too, it is generally known that Germany took the initiative in the Venezuelan blockade in 1M2, and since the power of Russia has been considerably les-sened by the Russo-Japanese War, the Germans appear to be even more aggressive than before. These actions truly speak louder than words, but the words are not lacking either. The German Kaiser's speeches are teeming with expressions which clearly reveal the German attitude. Among many others he said at Cologne in 1897: "We have great duties in the world. There are Germans everywhere whom we must protect. German prestige must be preserved abroad. The trident belongs in our hands." In 1900, upon delegating to Prince Henry the command of the Oriental fleet, he said: "Im-perial power is sea power. The two are mutually dependent. 16 THE MERCURY. Should anyone infringe our rights, then use the mailed fist and earn your laurel wreath." To departing soldiers he used such terms as these: "Spare nobody." "Take no prisoners." "Give no quarter." Such expressions are not the mere workings of an individual's maind, but are the sentiments of a nation expressed through its chief executive. It is true, too, that Germany is the greatest obstacle to the policy of limitation of armaments and obligatory arbitration. It was with great difficulty that the German government was per-suaded to consent to the establishment of the permanent Court of Arbitration. She opposed nearly every policy advocated by England. She held strict views of belligerant rights and voted against every specific proposal of obligatory arbitration. The Germans have rejected the advances since made by the English to enter upon an Anglo-German understanding concern-ing the cost and extent of their naval programs, claiming that no formal proposal has been made and therefore no official transac-tions have followed. Since Germany was not in harmony with the proposals of the Hague Conference, there seems to be but one remedy to check the steadily growing martial spirit of the sturdy Germans, namely, an alliance between the two greatest branches of the Anglo-Saxon race, England and America. Unless some such alliance is formed, the law of "the survival of the fittest" will be the outcome; of which the fittest is the strongest, the best or-ganized, and the most unscrupulous. A NARROW ESCAPE. R. L. MCNALLY, '13. JHNEAKEY was feeling blue that night as we sat together in the lobby of The Eoyal. He awaiting the arrival of a certain well-padded person, whom he pleased to call his victim,—and very impressibly informed me would be his last one,—while I was trying to pass away the night of idleness. Sneakey started to tell me all about his intended re- THE MERCURY. 17 form, and was in the midst of a "profound resolve" with his fist in the air intending to bring it down on the handle of my chair, when the arrival of a ponderous white steam car arrested his at-tention and without a sign or signal he arose from where he sat walked over to the door where the fat and hearty autoist would have to enter. Only once did he glance back at me, and then very quickly. I thought 1 noticed a shade of distress in that glance, but dismissed the thought of the fact that Sneakey, above all, would ever shrink from a job. Sneakey followed this particular individual over to the desk and watched him register, lighting a cigarette in a cool and un-interested fashion, but carefully noticing in his mind the rooms to be occupied by this person. He didn't return to where I was sitting, a very wise thing on his part, but strolled over to the bil-liard room, where fifteen minutes later, I found him actively en-gaged in a game with a stately looking, shifting-eyed sport. I walked on through and out on the street, took a car, and was soon in my room snugly seated in my large chair, planning, and thinking I had spotted a large elegantly finished mansion across the park, occupied solely by an old gentleman of eccentric habits. his brother, two house maids, and a general utility man. Next morning after breakfast I strolled across the park to in-vestigate my intended loot and map out a course that would be sure to bring me safely to my goal. I bought a paper afterwards and nothing could be printed clearer, nor more prominent to me than the little three-lined announcement that Sneakey, the one and only friend I had to depend upon, had been intercepted in an attempt to enter the rooms of a wealthy guest and was being held for trial. Of all the news, this was the most distressing. But what could I do but accept it as a present from our dreaded enemies, the plain clothes men. I did not know what to do for tools, and to attempt such a task alone would be almost fool-hardy, and Sneakey's presence was an excellent solution to both of these quanderies. But, since he was taken into the strong arms of the police, I could do nothing else than depend on luck. It was now 10.30 A. M., and I thought I might run across an old acquaintance, but there was none I could think of, let alone trust as an accomplice. After dinner I made a list of what I t^^^m^^^m 18 THE MERCURY. was in need of and among the things I needed most was a pair of wire nippers in case I would need them. Now I knew that Sneakey had a pair so I walked over to his room, having to pass the seat of my night's work, and picked the lock. Hanging across the back of a chair was a coat made up with the lining of a smoking jacket. I quickly realized its value and took it over to a tailor's and ordered it pressed, and put into proper shape. In the pocket of this coat I found a cigar which I took as a charm for my safety because I found it in the pocket of the most valuable tool I could have possibly came across. Placing the cigar carefully in my pocket the next thing to do was to get a mate at all hazzards. Scotty kept a rather notable pool room where I had been in the habit of spending some time and where I knew I could find a collection of choicest men of my profession. On entering I could hardly believe myself when who should step up and shake my hand but Harry Musser. I hadn't seen him for years, and why, I'm sure, is not because he had fallen into the same ill luck as Sneakey. I told him all of my plans and asked him to go along and help "cinch it," but woe for my hopes; he had a job on hand at White Flains, and was leaving that night on the 11.30 boat to ge to White Plains about 2 A. M., and be safe from all view to carry out his aim. Well, this was the last hope, and I decided to go alone. I saw Harry off and returning to my room put on the coat nicely tailored, and walked across the park and on around to the rear entrance of this house. Just as I entered the hedge I heard West Hall Hedge clock strike one. Walking up to the porch I started operations by climbing the vine, since I had to dispense with Sneakey's excellent tact of pitching a rope ladder. Gaining the level of the window sill I swung across and caught hold of the sill and hung suspended until I could grasp the shutter and pull myself up so that I could place my foot against the opposite side of the window frame and gradually work myself up inch by inch until I was standing on the sill holding on to the shutters. I was starting to work on the win-dow when I heard somebody walking on the pavement. When he got opposite the place where I was he stopped, lit a cigar and gazing aimlessly about, turned his steps and walked up the gravel walk and sat down on the porch almost under me and smoked. THE MERCURY. 19 After about fifteen minutes I did not see or hear him stir, and concluded he was asleep. Much was my chagrin when I found the window pulled up tight against the upper frame. To get in was almost impossible, and to get back to where I came from, was impossible. I had to decide some way. I knew that it would be safer to get out through the house than to get past that night watchman below, so taking a small finger-nail clip from my pocket, I dig two crescent shaped holes in the window frame, and placing my fingers in them bent all my effort toward pulling it down. It yielded, and carefully lowering it, I climbed in, down on the floor and I thought noislessly over to view my room in general, when all of a sudden, the lights were turned on brightly and a small buz sounded on the wall which I knew was a signal. Then locating the door, I made for it, but was barred by a huge porpous of a man whom I concluded was the butler. I had to pass him to liberty, and being much smaller, knew a struggle would be useless. I waited until he charged, then side-stepping I gave him a lucky stroke in the stomach. He wasn't long in the fight. Throwing my hat in a corner, I ran my fingers through my hair, put the coat inside out, the cigar in my mouth, ran down to the front door, to escape, preparing lest the police should arrive before I got away. Two officers were coming down the pavement at a good speed. I did not know what to do in so-tight a place. I decided to use strategy, so assuming a horrified expression, I called to them that here was the place, and ex-plained that the old gentleman had became suddenly worse, and that I was sent by him to bring his son, who lived some distance-from the house. That story wasn't believed in full by them, and! they decided to go along with me to bring his son. The two fol-lowed me for a square, and then stopping, I reasoned that two of them should go back to the old man, and assist the butler in car-ing for him, while the other officer and I went for the son. To this they agreed, and we two sped, where, I did not know until, reaching into the pocket of this coat, my hand fell upon the wire nippers. I just happened to think of Sneakey. I knew he wouldn't be in his room so I made a short cut there and pound-ing on the door received no reply, until a doctor next door put his head outside the door and informed us that that gentleman mi^^^^^^^^^^^^mwg^^^^^^^^^^^^^m 20 THE MEECUET. had left yesterday morning and had not returned yet. Now I knew to go along back to the house would mean my arrest so I told the officer that he should go on back to assist the other officer and the butler, while I awaited until this doctor would dress and go along with me, that we would follow in a few moments. When the officer left, I feigning that I intended to wait, followed after him down to the street level and proceded over by a back street to my rooms. Next day I learned of Sneakey's sentence of two years and went around, packed up his furniture to store it. In the pro-cess of this packing I was assisted by this doctor who told me of the very strange call he had last night. THE "BACK HOME" BOY. EDWIK C. HOBBOW, '12. EE we, the great American people, interested in the farmer boy? "We are. Why should the attention of the richest, most commercial nation of the earth turn to the humble youth of sunburnt face and freckled nose "back home ?" There are several conspiring reasons which cause the lines of national interest to deflect from their normal course toward that obscure spot on the map where is growing to man-hood the average country boy. One of the first reasons, perhaps, is to be found in the fact that he is "the boy back home." Somebody has said, "God made the country, but man made the town." Well, what man made the town? It was the man from the country; and it is the man from the country who is making the town grow and prosper to-day. It is from the hay-field rather than from the gutter; from the garden rather than from the crowded quarters of the town, that men are being drafted to fight the great battle of the world's market place and public halls. The bulk of brains, the brawn, and the character of this country has come from the country; and from the country will come at least many of our big men of the succeeding gen-eration. THE MERCURY. 21 The country boy is running America to-day; his name is legion. Abraham Lincoln, the greatest monument in American history, has established a standard of idealism for all American frontier boys. President Eoosevelt was a western rancher. William Jennings Bryan, who, despite conflicting views and re-gardless of politics, is an international character, wears overalls on his Nebraska farm. Anthony Comstock, one of the greatest and best moral forces in America to-day, came from a New Eng-land farm. Homer Davenport, one of the best known political cartoonists in the country, grew up on a far western farm. And so the list may continue down along the directory of the "Who is Who"—including United States senators, merchant princes, economic, scientific and philosophic authorities; light of the bar and pulpit; writers, artists and musicians; there is no seat of the mighty where the farmer boy has not sat. If there is anybody in this whole country of ours who is a free citizen, it is the country boy. He is as free as everything about him,—the air, the sunshine, the birds, the snow. Out here in God's own country, a boy can not help growing to manhood brave and strong and clear-minded. Simple taste, simple appe-tites, a simple home, these are a wholesome curriculum for a boy's individual education. Plain food, regular hours, and plenty of healthful exercise,—these create a strong body, the only fit setting for a strong mind. The farmer boy grows up away from the atmosphere of riotous vice. He is not bred in the shadow of corporate domination and "higher ups;" he recognizes no "higher up" in this world than his Father. He is imbued with the faith that a man who dares can, and that a man who can should. He has confidence in himself, and belief in his future. That is what we by times call by one of several names: Energy, backbone, enterprise, jasm, initiative, perseverance, grit, gump-. tion. Whatever it is, it is a winnig quality,—it is power. The thoughtful men are realizing this to-day as they never-did before. Employers know it and want young men from the country; educators feel it and rejoice over the country bred scholar. The voter knows it; and the politician knows that he knows it, with the result that we get in office to-day some honest and fearless men, who stand for the best in American polities,, though tied until almost powerless. 22 THE MERCURY. It is no disgrace to have come from the country, and the boy from the country need not be afraid to apply for a job. His record is good, and nothing need stand between him and success. THE EVOLUTION OF THE BEAST. EDWARD N. FRYE, '10. |OWJST from the mountains came two beasts into a plain upon which grew a few blades of grass; they stood facing each other with snarls. Finally the battle be-gan to rage as to which should get those few blades. It became a life and death struggle, and the turmoil was great. It was a case of the survival of the fittest. The strong one con-quered and the grass was his. The other lay in the dust and gore with his life slowly ebbing away. Thus as I look out over this great country and see the strug-gle of man for life, for liberty and for progress, and then think that he is called beast and materialist, I am reminded of the story of the beasts. The charge is not wholly untrue. Man is a materialist, but a materialist by necessity, a materialist because he is a creature of society and society is warring to keep him bound. His materialism is a bread and butter problem. His materialisms are the necessities of life, nourishment of the body and a life with its comforts. The problem is how shall he pro-cure those necessities upon which his life depends, and how can he add to his daily life those comforts. These are the foremost thoughts in his mind. His hunger must be satisfied and his body clothed, likewise he must care for his wife and his children. Of course he is a materialist and what else could he be. What would give him existence? Surely not spiritualism. The life of man is made up of more or less materialistic wants. And he has been called a materialist because he is forced to center all thought on these wants. He has been called a materialist be-cause he is demanding that which by right is his and which so-ciety will not grant. He has been called a materialist because the other big beast, capitalism, is contending with him for the THE MERCURY. 23 last blade of grass. He is being driven to the very brink of de-spair with only one thought: "How can I live," and with one problem to solve: "How can I procure bread and butter." He is forced further and further to the point of starvation and still that mighty hand reaches out to grasp more from his little to swell its fortune or fill its coffers. Thus the working man is forced to lift up his voice and cry for his rights when the Ameri-can aristocracy consider him nothing more than a machine to further their interests. Whentheworkingman is reduced to a thing he becomes a materialist by necessity. He cannot lie back on the oars and pray that the Almighty God may give him bread, for then he would starve. He is therefore compelled to concentrate his energy, to rise up against such conditions and let his voice be, heard in order that he may receive that which by divine right is his. Then only when he receives that right can he turn his at-tention to the other phase of life, the spiritual side. To bring this about there must be an evolution of social condi-tions, not a revolution as the one who stands without the turmoil describes. The working man must rise up out of his present condition and let it be known that he is not a mere beast for the purpose of serving capitalistic interests and when of no more use to be turned off to starve or to be an object of charity. The capitalist, who is the real materialist, and in a sense a pragma-tist, must realize that the so-called brute is his social brother, born with all the privileges of a human being and with a soul that is equally precious in the sight of God. The capitalist must recognize that life is not a mere dream for the other fellow, but that it is a reality demanding a certain share of this world's goods to make it a joy and to prepare that soul for its rightful inheritance. This will take place when he ceases to say of his social brother: "Beast, beast," and in turn shows him his love. If the capitalist would change his perspective what a change would surely be in human affairs and in human lives. How much strife would be eliminated and how much deeper would be the spiritual life. Then man could think more seriously of things that are spiritual. The stomach of the working man would be filled and his physical wants attended to. You must satisfy those physical wants before you can hope to have him seek the wants of the soul or to develop him spiritually. 24 THE MERCURY. THE SPIRIT OF THE PLACE. HARVEY S. HOSHOUR, '10. S the autumn twilight closed in upon the old Thomaaton campus, so fraught with traditions and memories of a century's existence, there seemed to be an element of discontent, quite foreign to the place indeed, which per-meated everyone. Grant Hilsey, if the conversations which were conducted in low tones throughout the quadrangle were correct, the cause of all this discord, was throwing off his football togs in a room luxuriously furnished in every appointment. He then took a quick shower and dressed thoughtfully. Yes he was right. Something would happen tonight. Something must happen. What should he do ? Should he go to the mass-meeting or stay in his room? What was best for the college? All these ques-tions played havoc in Hilsey's mind while he was dressing and while he ate a late supper at the training table: The old chapel on the hill was that night the scene of the largest mass meeting Thomaston had ever known. Tomorrow-was the day for the "big" game with Greenvale, and the slogan of the meeting was, "Thomaston expects every man to do his duty." After speeches short and to the point by various mem-bers of the faculty, the 'Varsity men were called for one by one, and responded with short talks, promising their best efforts on the morrow. "What's the matter with Captain Hilsey?" shouted the cheer leader. The answer was an irresolute, "He's all right," amid a hubbub of hisses and jeers. The cheer leader looked aghast. "Let's see him. We want Hilsey," clamored the crowd, seem-ingly ashamed of its first action. Every one turned to the rear whence they expected Hilsey to come but there was no answer. Hilsey was not there. The captain had come into the meeting late and had sat in the rear, listening to his men as they spoke. He, too, would do his best to win. How could he lose, leading men with such spirit? Then came the jeers. He had known they must come, but he could not check the hot tears that kept swelling to his eyes. There was still one chance. He was in the rear seat and had not THE MERCURY. 25 been noticed in the excitement of the evening. H suited his ac-tion to the thought, and when the crowd turned to look for him, he had gone forth, unseen and alone. The leader shook his megaphone for silence and said in a voice that quivered just a bit, for he was a friend of the captain, "Pel-lows, tonight we have insulted one of the best captains Thomas-ton has ever known. He has picked the team with the best in-terests of the college at heart, regardless of what his enemies may say. For four years we have seen Grant Hilsey fighting for Thomaston honor. Where is the man who ever saw him betray the college. We have elected him captain, and upon him our hopes of beating Greenvale depend, and yet we hear criticisms, "improvements," and even jeers on the eve of our gratest game. It's mighty fortunate he isn't here to see this, for you know the Hilsey pride and its hard to tell what any one of us wouldn't do under his circumstances. Now fellows, lets make it so he can hear it. "What's the matter with Hilsey?" "He's all right," came back witht the roar of thunder. The dissatisfaction over the picking of the team and the captain himself seemed to be go-ing fast. "Who's all right?" Hilsey," re-echoed the crowd. "We want Hilsey," they yelled, but none appeared. The leader again motioned for silence. "Boys," he said, "one more rick-etyax for Captain Hilsey." The yell was given with a lust. All feeling was gone now in the spirit of the place which gripped every man in a way which was irresistible. With a "last long ray for the 'Varsity," the most successful mass meeting Thomas-ton had ever seen was over. When Grant Hilsey emerged from the building all seemed a confused mass. He had been publicly insulted and even jeered at. Last year, after the season which had ended by "sweeping Greenvale off the face of the earth," as the Thomastonian had it, he had been the hero of the college. He had made the run that had won for his Alma Mater, and it was quite natural that Hil-sey should be elected captain of next year's eleven. The election had been unanimous. He had come back this fall eager to pro-duce another victorious team, but the material was new and hard to get into shape. He had done his best, fairly and squarely, with the result that his associates characterized him as a deserter, for he had not chosen the, team entirely from his own "clique." 26 THE MERCURY. He was too fair for that. He was also criticized by that class of students—all too common everywhere—whose chief concern it is to kick, who are too good for everybody, yet whom nobody wants, and who still, somehow or other, exercise an influence,—probably only due to their persistency,—on every college community. The result was that Hilsey had become the most unpopular man in the college. As he walked through the campus he had grown to love, his mind was crowded to overflowing. What should he do? The Hilsey pride asserted itself. He would show them. No Hilsey could be played with in this manner. They had said that his team was "crooked." Let them improve on it. They would see that they couldn't do without Grant Hil-sey. Eevenge would be his and sweet would be his revenge. Instead of going to his room Hilsey went across the campus to his fraternity house. It too was deserted. He would send for his trunk after the game. As he sat musing on the porch the old walls loomed up before him. How he longed to graduate. But he was a Hilsey and a Hilsey never gave in. What did he care for the place anyhow? There were surely others just as good. The night train for Watauga was almost empty that night. All traffic was turned toward Thomaston for the morrow's big game. It was too late for Hilsey to go home when the train got in, so he resolved to stop at the hotel till the next day. Through-out the night and the morning his mind was in one vast whirl. He would wait till evening before going home. He remembered that all his people were at Thomaston to see the game. Some-how or other he felt that he was shirking something. Maybe he ought to go back to Thomaston even though his fellows had de-serted him. What did these unworthy sons have to do with old Thomaston anyhow ? He remembered a little essay of his on college spirit, on which he had been complimented highly. He was a Freshman then. He remembered the past three years, their ups and downs, their fortunes and misfortunes. Yes, they were happy years, all too happy but they were gone for good now. The Hilsey pride had shown itself. But that essay on college spirit kept forcing itself into his mind. That was theory he knew, rather sentimental at that. Was there such a thing at Thomaston as real live college THE MERCUKY. 27 spirit? He had done his best but did he have the spirit which could endure all for the sake of the college. Anything but gibes, he thought. But what else had he endured. He had failed at the first trial. He was a failure, a quitter, and Thomaston had expected every man to do his duty. Again the college walls loomed up in his mind. Yes, he loved them, he loved their •every stone, he loved their traditions and their lore. He looked at his watch. Could he make it? The Thomaston spirit asserted itself. He signalled a passing car, which he recognized as one of his father's. "Fast as you can to Thomaston," were his orders. It was a long ride but never for an instant did Hilsey's intentions change. There was such a thing as college spirit, Thomaston spirit. He was completely in its spell. As the car neared the campus he heard the cheer leader call, "Now then Thomaston." It thrilled his very heart. That was Thomaston, his Thomaston. "To my room," he fairly yelled to the chauffeur. The campus was de-serted. Over the green hedge which surrounded the athletic field, he could see a mass of crimson and gold. That meant Thomaston, the Thomaston he longed to fight for. It was the work of a few minutes to jump into his togs. Never was he so proud of the hugh "T" on his sweater. To think that he was so near forfeiting the privilege of wearing it. As he neared the field he heard a count—one-two-three—and then a long drawn out —nothing, all from the opposing side. His heart gave a throb. There was a chance yet. He flung off his sweater. He would show them that the Hil-sey pride was swallowed up in his college spirit. A great shout arose as the wearers of the crimson and gold saw Hilsey. They forgot enmities. He, their only hope, had come back to make them win. His judgment had been vindicated for his team had played wonderfully, and, but for a beautiful kick would have held Greenvale to no score. "Ten minutes to play," announced the time-keeper as Hilsey took his place at quarter. The team had been holding well be-fore. Now with a leader they played an aggressive game. Slowly they marched up the gridiron. Once they lost the ball, only to regain it on downs. Thomaston enthusiasm knew no bounds. There were no spectacular runs, ten yards being the greatest 28 THE MERCURY. single gain. With one minute to play a touch-down was made and the goal kicked. "What's the matter with Hilsey?" again shouted the leader. Never was such a yell heard as when they cried, "He's all right." The game was over. Again the colors of Thomaston flew high. Hilsey was late for supper again that evening. The sun was setting beyond the chapel hill with a blaze of crimson and gold, which seemed to him to be in honor of Thomaston's victory, his victory. The old chapel looked dearer than ever. In a few short months he would receive his diploma there. "It's the spirit of the place," he murmured as a crowd of students came down the street, wood in one hand and oil cans in the other. "There he is now. We want Hilsey," they cried." Yes," he muttered, as he was being hoisted upon the shoulders of his ad-miring fellows, "its the spirit of the place, the college spirit, the Thomaston spirit." I H E HE RCU RV Entered at the Postoffi.ee at Gettysburg as second-class Matter. VOL. XVII GETTYSBURG, PA., NOVEMBER, 1909 No. 6 Editor in-Chief SAMUEL FAUSOLD, 'IO. Exchange Editor G. E. BOWERSOX, 'io Business Manager PAUL S. MILLER, 'IO Ass't Bus. Managers C. M. ALLABACH,'ii S. T. BAKER, 'II Assistant Editor RALPH E. RUDISILL, 'IO Associate Editors E. J. BOWMAN, 'II C. M. DAVIS, 'II Advisory Board PROF. G. F. SANDERS, A. M. PROF. P. M. BIKLE, FH. D. PROF. C. J. GRIMM, PH. D. Published each month, from October to June inclusive, by the joint literary Societies of Pennsylvania (Gettysburg) College. Subscription price, one dollar a year in advance ; single copies IS cents. Notice to discontinue sending THE MERCURY to any address must be ac-companied by all arrearages. Students, Professors and Alumni are cordially invited to contribute. All subscriptions and business matter should be addressed to the Business Manager. Articles for publication should be addressed to the Editor. Address THE MERCURY, GETTYSBURG, PA. EDITORIALS. fore, his duty to cultivate it. THE CONYERSA- What a world TIONALIST. of meaning this word contains! What a flood of memories it brings to us! Un-consciously there leaps to the im-agination the pictures of talkers who have given us many a pleas-ant hour. The human voice is probably man's greatest gift. It is his dis-tinguishing feature. It is, there- Indeed this should be his ambi- ^■■■^^^■H 30 THE MEECUEY. tion: to be affable, clear, optimistic and pleasant; to develop a ready wit and the happy accomplishment of speaking the right word at the right time. Indeed to keep silent always is as great a fault as constant babbling. Franklin expressed the idea as follows: "As we must account for every idle word, so we must for every idle silence. Conversation is not a wooden thing; it is elastic, happy and free; it runs, hops and skips. Indeed man's greatest asset is speech and harmonious conversation between two or more should be made the supreme pleasure of life. Conversation costs us nothing in dollars and cents; it com-pletes our education; discovers friends for us and can be enjoyed at all times and in all places. Although conversation is common to all ages, we believe the golden age of youth makes most of it. The young man or woman—particularly the college man or woman—uses the gift of speech to give expression to the bright-est hopes for the future. The collegian, in fact, lives in the fuT ture and oh! what a loss it would be to him to be deprived of the pleasure of building castles in the air. Talk is the great instrument of friendship. By it as Steven-son says, "Men and women contend for each other in the lists of love like rival mesmerists. By it friends can measure strength and enjoy that amicable counter-assertion of personality which is the gauge of relations and the sport of life." Conversation generally drifts to the two great subjects, "You and I." Of course the third party may be given passing consid-eration but vain humanity can not long escape the subjective. This fact is quite noticeable in the chat of two college chums. It invariably has to with the welfare of the speakers directly or in-directly. This being the case the conversationalist should be careful to clothe his old subjects in new garments and to bring them forth from the mint, as it were, with new and ever delight-ful aspects. Yes, let us continue to talk! Let us enjoy our talks, but let us seek to find more and more ways to benefit from them. THE American business world is a rapidly flowing river. To get into this rapidly moving stream, man must hustle and not be slothful. The competitions of modern life have become so keen THE MERCURY. 31 that there are no opportunities for the lazy. Man must either work or go to the wall. In every community this fact is under-stood but too often not believed. Should not these student days be hours of industry and benefit ? Many a night is spent in folly and the following day suffers. The only real and lasting enjoy-ment in life is to be found in work. Everything which man creates decays when neglected, but nothing in nature goes to pieces so fast as man in idleness. The conditions of all our faculties and enjoyments are found in the full exercise of all our powers to the limit of their capacity. There are examples of college men ad inflnitissium whose voice touches no sympathetic chord in the activities of to-day. Their thoughts never got beyond college politics and rivalries of secret societies. They have always been idlers and now are hopeless failures. As in the lower life the busy bees have no room for the drone, so in a college community the diligent students have no room for the dilatory. Let us conscientiously answer the ever-present question would our parents approve of their money's time and benefit ? and give tireless attention to our own work and advancement and when the commencement clock strikes we shall all be ready for our liberal professions. EXCHANGES. | GAIN it becomes our pleasant duty to examine and com-ment on our exchanges. We are gratified to see so many of the former papers again appear this year; as well as many new ones. A few of the former ex-changes have not yet made their appearance, but we trust it is only a matter of a short time until we shall again have the pleas-ure of receiving them. The matter of criticism is quite a relative one; some papers choose to tear every thread of good out of productions by hostile criticism; others are too apt in praising. It has always been our custom to act the part of appreciative critics in dealing with our friends. Of course there is often a necessity to make the harsher 32 THE MERCURY. kind of criticism, but in so doing we shall always do it with a friendly spirit and trust no offense is taken. Of the few exchanges to reach our hands this year one of the best is "The Gilford Collegian;" its departments are all well ordered and literary contributions are of a high order. The ora-tion, "The Solid South," is a very pertinent production; it deals in a broad and sensible manner with the reasons of southern solidity and shows how the causes for it no longer exist and that the idea belonging to a past time should be relegated to its pro-per place by the thoughtful citizens. The story, "The Heart of a Woman," in the same issue is very clearly written and not only causes much amusement but some serious thought. The October issue of "The College Student" is filled with well written articles. "The Crime of the Congo" and "The Crucible of Life" show much preparation and skillful arrangement of material. "We gratefully acknowledge all exchanges received. PATRONIZE OUR ADVERTISERS. IN this Drama of Four Year's Course, Play your part without dad's horse ; This to do is up to you With just a little tact between each yearly act, In some domain take a stroll And sell ALUMINUM for next year's Role (roll). Every summer hundreds of students make BIG MONEY selling Aluminum Cooking Utensils. For particulars address LOUIS HETZEL, Gettysburg College, GETTYSBURG, PA. THE STEWART & STEEN CO., COLLEGE ENGRAVERS, 1024 Arch Street, PHILADELPHIA. MAKERS OF INVITATIONS, PROGRAMS, MENUS, VISITING CARDS, DANCE CARDS, MONOGRAMS, CLASS AND FRATERNITY STATIONERY. P. S. MILLER, '10, Representative, Who has a full line of samples. EDUCATION The times an .1 the Schools demand that the best things shall be done and in the best manner. Watermans^FountainPen accomplishes everything that can be required of a good writing in-strument. Made to last for years of service and give its owner the satisfaction which comes with owning "the best." From all dealers. The Globe trade-mark i» our guarantee .742 Market St. San Frm 136 St. Jftinei St., Moi.trenl 12 Golden L*n«. ton-ton G Ru« A* lUnovm Paris PATRONIZE OUR ADVERTISERS. FUIOTTU^E Mattresses, Bed Springs, Iron Beds, Picture Frames, Repair Work done promptly. 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Transcript of an oral history interview with W. Russell Todd conducted by Joseph Cates at the Sullivan Museum and History Center on May 16 and May 19, 2016, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project. W. Russell Todd graduated from Norwich University in 1950 and was president of the university from 1982 to 1992. In his interview, he discusses his thirty-two years of active duty in the U.S. Army as well as his experiences at Norwich University. ; 1 W. Russell Todd, NU '50, Oral History Interview Interviewed on May 16, 2016 and May 19, 2016 At Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Joseph Cates JOSEPH CATES: This is Joseph Cates. Today is May 16th, 2016. I'm interviewing General Russell Todd. This interview is taking place at the Sullivan Museum and History Center. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. OK, first tell me your full name. RUSSELL TODD: William Russell Todd. JC: When were you born? RT: I was born on the first day of May, 1928, in Seattle, Washington. JC: What Norwich class are you? RT: Class of 1950. My father was 26. My son was -- I'll think about that. JC: Well, we'll get back to that. Tell me about where you grew up and your childhood. RT: For the first year of my life we lived in Seattle, Washington. Dad had a job with a lumber company out there, getting experience to come back to work for his father, who ran a lumber company just outside Milton, Massachusetts. So I grew up for the first nine or ten years in Milton, Massachusetts, a very nice place, right on the edge of where Mattapan and Milton come together. There was a lot of traffic. Well, just for an example, during that period of time I came up with my dad to his fifteenth reunion, and the difference in traffic between where we lived and what we found up here was considerable. When I got back to school on Monday the teacher said, "Russell had a day off. He's now going to tell us what he saw." Well, nothing came to mind, and I stood and told them that I had seen something they had never seen, miles and miles and miles of dirt roads. Now I live on one. (laughs) JC: Was that the first time you were ever at Norwich? RT: Yeah. JC: What was your impression of it when you first saw it? RT: It was a very interesting period of time. It was just before World War II affected the United States, and many, many people were sending their sons to Norwich -- rather than perhaps better prepared schools -- because they could get a commission. They assumed that everyone was going to go to war, and the opportunity of getting an education and a commission together at the same time really appealed to a lot of people. Our football team got everybody we wanted of great quality. We won all the games in that time 2 frame. And we had some very, very fine people who came back in 1946, the year I entered the university, and they made a big impression on my life. JC: I'm sure. I assume the buildings were the same. There weren't any new buildings between the time that you went and -- RT: As a matter of fact it was 1941 I believe, and two buildings on the main parade ground were being dedicated. One wasn't quite finished, and the other was, and two new dormitories shows you an example of what I was saying, how it was a golden period in Norwich's history. But saying that, the opposite is true when the war ends. You remember that we had, what, 15 cadets come up here after the Civil War. They all got off the train, (laughs) yeah, we don't think much about that. It's happened each time there's been a war. The incentive, or the idea, or the concept of perhaps having to serve didn't appeal to a lot of people at the end of wars. JC: Right. You kind of have a boom before the war and a bust after the war. RT: Yeah. JC: What made you decide to come to Norwich? RT: I think probably that trip did, that and the fact my dad was always talking about it. He would make us on Saturday nights -- eating beans and franks -- to sing Norwich songs around the table. (laughs) JC: Do you remember any of those Norwich songs? RT: There's a good one. What is it? "Oh, My First Sergeant" "Oh, my first sergeant, he is the worst of them all. He gets us up in the morning before first call. It's fours right, fours left, and left foot into line. And then the dirty son of a buck, he gives us double time. Oh, it's home, boys, home. It's home we ought to be. Home, boys, home, in the land of liberty. And we'll all be back to Norwich when the sergeant calls the roll." JC: That's wonderful. (laughter) I've heard in some of the oral histories "On the Steps of Old Jackman," but I haven't heard that one before. (Todd laughs) So when you came here with your father, was that during homecoming? RT: Well, homecoming and graduation were the same period of time. It was fascinating to me. It was a cavalry school. They had all kinds of drills that we went to and watched, and prizes were awarded. People loading up the water-cooled submachine guns on horseback and racing around, then taking them down, and putting in ammunition blanks, and firing -- you know, first, second, and third prizes kind of thing. Oh, yeah, that impressed me. Then, of course, the parades were fun to see. But it took about three days to get through graduation and homecoming as a single entity. JC: When you came to Norwich what did you major in? 3 RT: That's an interesting story. As I said, Norwich was having trouble at that time recruiting people, and I got recruited by the president of the university. We met in Boston, and he asked me all the things I was interested in, and to him it looked like I should be an engineer, and he wanted me to take an exam that would carry that forward. Well, I took the exam, and I became an engineer, and about the first part of the second semester I discovered you really had to do the homework. I really didn't like that much, and I wasn't doing very well, so I changed my major to history and economics. I really found that fascinating. JC: Well, tell me about what it was like being a rook here. RT: Yeah, another interesting thing. I was sold on the rook system, and my dad had always talked about it. When he brought me up here, people would drop off their suitcases, and go right out onto the parade ground, and start being ordered around by the corporal. I thought that was great. I never seemed super. But I didn't have many followers on that. I was very anxious that my father leave, and get out of there, and go home, and I convinced him to do that. But after, oh, maybe a month the class, who had elected class officers by that time, called a class meeting, and we all got together -- I've forgotten where now. "We got to stop this. We got to tell these guys we're not going to put up with this nonsense. We've got to show our power." I stood up and said, "Gentlemen, this isn't what we want to do. We want to put up. We want to show him we can do it," and I got booed right off the stage. However, they eventually made me class secretary, so I didn't lose all my friends that day. (laughs) JC: Now let's talk about post-war Norwich, because you did say there's kind of a bust. There isn't as many people. RT: Yeah, I think we had 200 in our class, and there was no really classes of Bubbas. Norwich toward the end of the war, when they were really desperate to get money to pay salaries to the faculty, had a high-school level. I think it was two years, the high-school level, and many people went into that and came up here, and that toward the end made some income for the university. But what it did for us, as an incoming class of freshmen, we had our officers, lieutenants, who were younger than we were, but they'd been here two years. You know, that didn't sit over very well either. That was difficult. JC: And the cavalry was still here at that time. RT: It was, yeah, for the first two years of my term and tenure at Norwich, at that point. JC: What do you remember about the horse cavalry? RT: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Well, let's just put it this way. The first person I visited in Northfield when I came back as president was my old sergeant [Kenoyer?], who we hated. He was tough. But on the other hand, we really liked him, and I felt very, very sorry for him, and I really wanted to see him. His son had won entry into West Point, and 4 about two nights before he was to report in he and a bunch of his buddies were in an automobile accident. I think they were hit by a train and killed. Sergeant [Kenoyer?] was never the same after that. He continued to ride horses in the parades in Northfield and that kind of thing. But he was a character. His education was perhaps at the level he was working, taking care of the horses, and taking care of the riding. He was a good man, but, for example, I had a roommate named George Pappas who was scared to death of the horses, and some of the horses knew it. They knew when you were afraid. And old George would step into the stable area, ready to put on the harness, and that old horse would just back him into the wall and lean on him -- oh, you win. Then, of course, [Kenoyer?] would come by and say, "Kick him in the neb with your knee!" Well, no one was going to do that, trapped in there. So George, he decided that he would skip equitation classes, and instead he took 10 demerits for every single class that he was supposed to be at, and he spent his first semester walking around the parade ground on Saturdays carrying a rifle, doing tours. Many things can be said about George. That's a whole other story of absolute wonder. But it was difficult. We only went down once a week actually to use them, but there really wasn't a hell of lot you can learn in one-hour time once a week. But toward the end of the freshman year we were out trotting around in the neighborhoods, etc. I remember one time one of the captains in the Army ROTC program there, officers, Army officers, lead us on a parade, and we went out across the railroad tracks and up into the hills. And on the way back the horses got the idea they themselves would like to jog back to the stables, and we came charging down that hill totally out of control. Some of the horses and men went all the way to downtown before they came under it. I went through the football practice. (laughs) It wasn't everything it was cracked up to be. Now there were some people here, including a classmate by the name of Bob [Bacharat?] [00:13:18] who really was a polo player. He came from Switzerland. I think that's the reason he came to Norwich was to be able to play polo, and we played polo in that time frame with people like Miami who flew their horses up here. Now, I never saw the plane, but we were told all this and a few years earlier, before the war, that Norwich was playing the big colleges and winning. Toward the end of the first year we played something called broom polo, which they'd throw out a basketball on the floor, and then you'd have to hit it with a broom to get it to go to the goal. Those kinds of things were fun to watch. I remember one time George, my roommate, in skipping class went up into the stands, which are on the south end of the hall, but up above in a balcony, and he opened the window and got a snowball, several of them, and put them up there. When somebody would go by, the stove down on the floor -- there were four stoves in that place -- they'd get red hot, but they really didn't make a hell of a lot of difference when the temperature was 30 below or whatever it might have been outside. And the horses, when you'd take them from the stable to the riding hall, would fight you all the way; they didn't want to go out in that cold. But George, on one occasion, dropped snowballs on those red-hot stoves, and you can imagine, they hissed. As the horse went by, this great hiss came out, and the horse would throw the guy, or run for the far -- I went hell bent for election to the far wall. And when he stopped, I went right up onto his neck and was hanging on. Sergeant [Kenoyer?] came over and gave me hell, you know, "You didn't take control of that horse." (inaudible) [00:15:36] There are people lying down all 5 around, and the horses are running around. Well, there's a certain romance in having the horses, so long as you're sitting in the stands watching a polo game. (laughs) JC: Had you ever ridden a horse before? RT: No, never. JC: So you didn't have any experience with horses. RT: Neither did anybody else. Yeah, yeah. They were wonderful animals though, for the most part. JC: Now you said a lot of the people that were there before the war came back after the war to finish up. RT: Mm-hmm. A lot may be too much of an adjective to use, but Alumni Hall was essentially filled with non-married veterans, or veterans who hadn't brought their wives back. Civilian clothes and having nothing to do with the military. The rest of the dormitories were filled with 200 and whatever it was cadets, and the very few upperclassmen like the one I mentioned who came up through the high school route. We didn't have a lot to do with them, and they were very serious about their studies in the classrooms, very serious about their studies. The fraternization took place after the first of the year when we could go into a fraternity house, and I remember the older veterans -- older, 22 maybe -- who were in Theta Chi, where I was, were a remarkable bunch of people and very, very much appreciated. They didn't always come to dinner with us, but they were in the house and participated with it. They ranged all the way from a parachutist in Europe to a lieutenant colonel in the air force. So that's a big gap. But they were great guys who made fraternity life reasonable. JC: Well, tell me about Theta Chi. Why did you choose that one? RT: Oh, yeah, the same old story, the same reason I came here. My dad was a Theta Chi. Why, of course that's what I'd do. This is my father's fraternity, you know. JC: So what were the fraternities like? RT: They weren't too bad. When General Harmon eliminated them, I thought it was the right thing to do, because there weren't fraternities at other military colleges. And when they were started I really believe they were very useful. They were much more an eating club, and since there wasn't a mess in the university in the 1850s. If you look into some of the old records you'll see at graduation time they invited the alumni back to have dinner, and they had dances. They had inter-fraternity baseball and football, etc. We were trying at my time, in my fraternity, to replicate that. It wasn't perhaps as successful as it might have been. It was great fun to beat SigEp in baseball or something. But it was a different part of the university. I remember one time when I was a corporal, and one of the men in the rank under me, in the barracks, was in the fraternity. We get down to the fraternity, 6 and he would give me a hard time for giving him a hard time. It wasn't what I thought it should be, but it was a good time. I mean, don't misunderstand me. Well, it was a fraternity. (laughs) The girls came in by train, if they were away. Carol came up several times on a train to spring break, or a winter carnival, and that kind of thing. That was good sport to have a place where we could party. There was no drinking - baloney, there wasn't. (Coates laughs) I remember one time we were having lunch, and one of the seniors, one of the veterans that had come back, was the president of the house, and he said, "Our Theta Chi member on the faculty, old Professor Woodbury, is going to be our chaperone for the party. Does anybody know Professor Woodbury?" "I know Professor Woodbury. My father told me about him. I've met him once." He said, "Good. You and your date will sit in the living room with the Woodburys while we're down in the basement drinking." (laughter) It wasn't much fun that night. We had the bars hidden behind sliding doors, or doors that pulled down, and all this kind of stuff, so if we got word that there was someone from the faculty coming we could close it up and all sit down, smile, and look like there was no alcohol in the place. JC: Can you tell me a little bit about winter carnival and some of the dances that you all had? RT: They were good sport. Much of the fun though centered around the fraternity at that time. Yes, of course we went to the dance, etc., but before going to the dance we probably went to the fraternity, and certainly after the dance we went to the fraternity, and that was really good sport. In my senior year my roommate, Rollin S. Reiter, from Ohio decided that in his fraternity they were going to have a special Christmas party. Now, it didn't make an awful lot of sense, because it was right at exam time. We took exams right in that time frame, so he really had to work to get these guys. They were going to do it in tuxedoes, not in our uniforms, so that slowed it down a little, too. But one of the guys, Chubby Jordan, who has since passed away, he was a brigadier general in the Massachusetts National Guard later on, an ex-marine. He didn't want to go do it, so they convinced him that he had to do it, and they would get him a date. When he went to the fraternity house, he was introduced to the worst looking girl in the place, and he immediately started drinking beer and avoiding her and all this. It wasn't even the girl they were going to match him up with, and they just were teasing him something awful. When he got very sleepy they put him on the pool table, laid out flat like in a mortuary and put two lit candles, one at either end of him on the pool table. It was a sight for sore eyes. (laughs) JC: I bet it was. Now you were on the rook committee while you were there? RT: Yeah. In my sophomore year I was the head of the rook committee, elected by the class. During the summer period of time I had to get together with the printers and the university and go through this business. There were big posters that said "Beware, Rook, Beware," and then they listed all the things down. We'd get them printed up here by John Mazuzan down in the Northfield Press, and then we'd sell them to the rooks at $1 apiece. I don't know what we did with the money, in the class coffers I guess. Yeah. I remember that President Dodge, who had no military experience previous, but was a very, very well known scientist and had been the dean of one of the big Midwestern schools in that area, 7 he was brought in by some hefty people on the board of trustees. He didn't fit. He didn't understand us. He was a great academic and did some very fine things for the university. But he called me in one day, as head of the rook committee, and said, "When will this period end?" This was right after supper. I said to him, "Sir, it's very clear. It's right on the chart." He said, "I want it to end at Thanksgiving." I said, "Sir, I don't think you're talking to the right guy. You should really be talking to the commandant of cadets, your left-hand man." He said, "Well, I don't know if I can convince him," and I thought, oh, my God, what have we got here, you know. (laughter) He was a fine gentleman, but the minute it was possible for the alumni to discover that General Harmon might be available, in May of my senior year, Dodge was gone. The alumni just -- it wasn't working the way they wanted to see it work. JC: So Harmon was not president any of the time that you were here? RT: His inauguration was held at the same time as my graduation. It was one thing. He had been here for maybe a month, and I remember that we had a football banquet, and they invited General Harmon to come. And he stood up and told us all that he had been here as a cadet, and he had come back in 1935 as the commandant of cadets, and he loved and understood this university, and he was going to make it famous, you know, kind of, "Yeah!" Just the kind of story we needed. Then he told us a story that just curdled me. It was a dirty story. I'd never heard some guy stand up in a dinner and tell a dirty story. It sort of surprised me. He had that reputation. As a matter of fact, one time later in my career, when I was in the army, I was asked by my boss if I would go back to Hamilton, Massachusetts, where I had lived at one time and see Mrs. George Patton, and tell her that her son-in-law -- as a brigadier general -- was about to be sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky. He was married to one of Patton's daughters, and he is now a bachelor. I was to go with three sets of quarters' plans and say, "Which of these, General, would you choose, because we at Fort Knox can now get the house painted up and ready for you, and all this kind of stuff ahead of time?" Well, Mrs. Patton agreed. When the time actually came general orders was late in his itinerary and couldn't be there, so she said, "Why don't you and Carol just come to dinner, and we'll talk about this? I will pass your message to Johnny when he comes through next week, and your leave is over." So that was just fine. But we had a quiet period in that Mrs. Patton was at one end of a long table, and I was at the other end, and Carol was in the middle, and there was a little old maid with a bonnet on her head, and an apron moving around quietly around the room. Everything went silent, and I said, "I can handle this." I said to Mrs. Patton, "Mrs. Patton, do you happen to know General Harmon?" And she said, "Indeed, I do, Russell, and he's a very disgusting man." (laughter) Now as it turns out, she gave an award right after that, she gave an award at Norwich of a similar pistol of General Patton's famous (inaudible) [00:29:38] to the leading cadet. But she was clear. (laughter) JC: Yeah, I've heard stories about General Harmon. RT: He did a great job. He stayed too long, but he did a great job. 8 JC: Well, what clubs were you in when you were here at Norwich? RT: Yeah, I went out for football. I'd come from a little school in Wenham, Massachusetts, where we played six-man football, and if one guy was sick, it didn't look like we were going to play, you know, kind of thing. I went out for football in Beverly High School, and that was danger. I mean, I wasn't up to that. When we got to Norwich I said, "I'm going back out for football. This looks like --" They were mostly freshmen. There were some veterans that came back, and there were some very good veteran players who came back but weren't interested in playing football. They wanted to study and have a family life. So Norwich had a terrible football team during that period of time. About the second day of practice Joe Garrity, who'd been a friend of my dad's who I had known, put his arm on my shoulder as we walked back to the locker room and said, "I've got a job for you." And I thought to myself, I'm going to be quarterback for the freshman team. And he said, "You're my manager, how about that?" and I said, "Oh, OK." Later in life, when I became president, the alumni director here, Dave Whaley, took me out to visit various alumni clubs. In Chicago a fellow named Hale Lait, who played football and was co-captain in his senior year, started to walk up to us, and Dave says, "Mr. Lait, do you know General Todd?" Hale Lait says, "Shit, he used to wash my jock." (laughter) And it was true! We had a big laundry over there. JC: Were you in any other clubs while you were here? RT: Yeah, I'd have to think upon it. We had an international relations club that I became president of at some point of time under -- oh, come on, his name is skipping me. I'll come back to it. But we brought I people to speak on the issues, and then Norwich formed an alliance with the other colleges where we were all working together, and that was sort of fun working that out. Oh, incidentally, when I was manager for the freshman team I had to write all the letters to the other schools and make all the arrangements, all that kind of thing. It sort of surprised me that the university wasn't doing that; the athletic department wasn't doing that. JC: Did you have a favorite professor when you were here? RT: Yeah, and I just told you I couldn't remember his name. (laughter) Sidney Morse. JC: Oh, OK. RT: Old Sidney Morse was a terrible lecturer, but he was a genius, you know. He understood American history, and that was his forte, and he also was a wonderful human being and understood us. He really got me to dig in and start getting decent grades. He would lecture, but he would have side comments on this thing, and there we are taking notes left and right. I never wanted to miss a class under any circumstances. He invited some of us -- one of them being me -- over to dinner, and he was just a great sport. He was not a big man in stature, but a big man in intellect. JC: Was there a professor you particularly didn't like? 9 RT: Oh, there were some who I'd rather not name who I didn't appreciate or think that they were at the level they should be. JC: What was the favorite class you ever took here? RT: I guess it was history. That's what I worked at. Let me go back to what I didn't like. We lost -- somehow, I don't know how -- one of the economics professors, and President Dodge brought in somebody in mid-semester, and this guy had written many books and was well appreciated around the world, but he was terrible. He couldn't remember any names, he refused to take any attendance, so people didn't come. You could answer him back and forth. I was told, I can't vouch for this, I was told by the people that say they did it. They invited him out the night before his final exam to join them for dinner in Montpelier, and when the time came, they picked up the tip, and went down to the railroad station, and put him on a train going to Montreal. (laughter) I believe it was true. But he just wasn't accustomed to teaching at our level in that circumstance. He was someone that should have continued writing his books. He was essentially a sociologist, but that was a while. I got called in by the dean for skipping class, and the dean was a great guy at that time. I was a little embarrassed by it, but the class was mostly veterans in this particular -- in economics. You know, they had their way. They weren't required to come to class. If they didn't come to class it chalked up one of a series you could have freer, but cadets didn't have that, so I just played like I was a veteran to old Mumbles [McLeod?]. That's what they called him, Mumbles. When the dean called me in, I got right back on it. JC: Decided you'd rather go back to class. RT: Yeah. JC: Did you ever get in much trouble when you were here? RT: Not really. I came close a number of times. Well, let me go back and talk about Carol. Carol and I met one time when we were in about the ninth grade. She was in Beverly, Massachusetts, and we were living in Hamilton, Massachusetts, at the time, and the Congregation youth groups met at a third place, Essex, Massachusetts. There were lots of people of our ages. You know, these groups didn't know each other. And I spotted her. She was -- wow! Wow, yeah. But I never got to speak to her before we broke up and went back. A couple of years later in Beverly High School -- we'd moved to Wenham, and Wenham didn't have a high school, so I went to Beverly High School. Todd with a T and Wyeth with W happened to have lockers opposite each other on the wall, and I said, "My God, there's that girl." I went over and spoke to her, and she invited me to her birthday party, and that'll show it all started with us. But it came to a point in our sophomore year when I had changed from engineering into history and economics. I had to make up some subject material that I didn't get in the first part, and I went to the University of New Hampshire trying to make it up. I went down on the weekend to her house in Beverly, and I stayed with her aunt 10 who lived next door. She was on my team. But Carol when we were -- she said, "Let's stop this tennis game for a minute. I want to talk to you." We walked up to the net, and she said, "You know, I'm through with this relationship. You're never going to be serious about anything you do in your life; you're going to be a perennial sophomore. I want to do more with my life than you are going to do, and this isn't going to work out." OK, I'll show you. I came back and studied like hell for the last two years I was here and sort of caught up. But it was interesting, when I was invited back at graduation time to be the officer who commissions everybody, and at that time the university ordered a master's or a PhD, you know, honorary to the speaker. Loring Hart didn't tell me whether I was supposed to say anything or not, so I had in my pocket a little thing I would say. It went something like this. It is indeed an honor to be here. I represent my classmates in this ceremony, and I'm very proud of the way Norwich is moving. But I would like you to know that 25 years ago, this very day, I received a letter from the committee on academic degrees and standings that read to this effect: "Dear Cadet Todd, The committee has met and has agreed to allow you to graduate (laughs) based on the circumstances that were not your fault." (laughter) So, you know, that's the way life went for me. I dug in and did relatively well. But another interesting thing about that. I don't know about anybody else, but I had a picture in my mind of VMI, and the Citadel, and all these places as being superior to Norwich in their military training, etc. But when I got in the army I discovered that 50% of them were duds, and it just changed my life around and my feelings about my institution. Yeah, it was strange. JC: When you graduated from Norwich what was the first -- you went into the army. RT: Yeah. JC: Did you go straightaway into the army, or was there a period? RT: Well, some of us -- I think it was 12, maybe as many as 15 -- received an opportunity to go into the regular army, not into the reserve army. I was one of those. About half of my classmates who were given that ability to do that chose not to do it, so there were a number of us that went. Upon graduation we received our commission in the United States Army Reserve, and then two weeks later I was brought into the regular army with another commissioning thing, which happened to be by my father's Norwich roommate, Colonel [Rice?] in Boston. He was running something in Boston for the army at the time. That was sort of fun. Then I went immediately off. We graduated about 15 or 17 May or something, June rather. On the second day of July, I reported in to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment Light at Fort Meade, Maryland, as one of these people you had a regular army commission. So there wasn't any time -- there was time enough in between that the family all went down to Cape Cod for a two-week vacation, but I graduated and went into the army. JC: Now did you get married before you were in the army? 11 RT: No, no. No, no. I was still trying to get back in Carol's good graces. Before I left -- well, I went, as I said, to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. Now the army was doing something really stupid at that time. They had been told to reduce the army's personnel requirements, and rather than reducing in any reasonable way, they chose to take one-third of every squad, one-third of every company, one-third of every battalion, one-third of every regiment. It was a paper army. It couldn't really operate well at all. But when the war broke out in Korea they took from those drawn-down forces and sent them over as individual replacements, supposedly to go into units that also had the same kind of vacancy that was created now. So we had almost no reasonable training while I was in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment before going to Korea, and these people went into units for which they were not trained. The army was really messed up, really messed up. General Abrams one time in discussing this with a group of officers, after he'd become chief of staff of the army, had tears running down his face. "No army should ever do that to its people. There is no excuse for it, and as long as I'm chief of staff I guarantee you that our units will be ready to fight, if we have to fight." You know, oh. It was a terrible mess over there. So before leaving that unit in which I had a miserable career for that short period of time. For example, it wasn't two weeks later that the post's military police battalion left Fort Meade and went to Korea. Company A of my organization, of which I was a lieutenant, became the post's military policemen. Now, we know nothing about being the post's military policemen, not a thing. There wasn't anything in ROTC, there wasn't anything that lead us to believe. What I knew about policing was I'd seen in movies, and I hid behind the "Welcome to Fort Meade" sign in my sedan, and chased down someone that was speeding, and discovered it was the chief of staff of the post. At midnight I went over and had a bed check in the post's prison, to see that there weren't any knives in there. But I got called in and said, "Hey, come on, get off it. You can go to jail for what you're doing," you know. (laughs) It was crazy. I was trying to do my job as I knew it, but no one was there to supervise me in any way. JC: And how long were you doing that? RT: I left there in September. I went in in July, left in September, and got to Korea in late November, first having leave and then going to the West Coast, going through the checks and balances of travel over there. Just about that time MacArthur announced that the war would be over by Christmas, and as a result the army slowed down the number of replacements they were sending over. This was just about the time that the marines invaded Inchon, and it was followed up with the 7th Division behind them, and trapped the North Vietnamese soldiers below us. It was really a magnificent maneuver. So we were just sitting around in California waiting to get orders. Every weekend we'd go into town, and we'd go into some bar and then talk out loud about how we've got to go, and waiting to go to war, this kind of thing. Somebody would pick up the bar tab. (laughs) Then we crossed the Pacific during a hurricane, and that was something most unusual, as you might imagine. The piano broke loose in the lounge. It had been a troop transport in World War II, and they converted it to be a troop ship but for families to go to Japan or other places. At that time these ships were the property of the army, it wasn't the navy. 12 I remember distinctly there was a captain on board, mostly lieutenants, but this captain on board was a ranger, and he'd a big, puffed-up chest, and walked among us, and told us to stand up straight, and "Take your hands out of your pockets." When he'd get tired of doing that he decided we should have bayonet drill, and issued the bayonets, put them on our rifles, and went up on the deck. Oh, God. I said, "I'm not playing this game." There was a ladder still going up the funnel, in wartime where they had a station to look for submarines, OK. I went up there while everybody else was screaming and hollering down below and got away with it. It's a wonder I ever went anywhere in the army. (laughs) JC: So what was Korea like? RT: Well, let me describe it. We arrived the day before Thanksgiving in Inchon, got off the boat. There was a long, long tidal process; the ship couldn't get close to the docks or anything else. So they threw the nets over the side, and we were to go over the side of the ship and climb down into a small boat to go in. But we had all our personal gear with us. We were carrying great bags of stuff. I had two bottles of whiskey in my bag, and some damn fool says, "Drop your bag into the boat." I did. (laughs) But as a matter of fact, they took our uniforms away from us at that time and said, "We will hold them here, because if everybody goes home at Christmas it won't affect you for a while, and you'll be in a regular army uniform." But we got on the boats and went on the shore. They fed us what was left over from the Thanksgiving dinner, and a lot of canned fruits, put us on a train, and sent us up to North Korea. Each of us, each lieutenant, was on an open freight car, you know, enclosed but with doors on both sides, and each one of them had a little stove in it. It was cold, and we headed north, and every time the hospital train came south on that one track we would pull over maybe an hour before it came by, and then stick around and get back onto the thing. In my one car I had 27 people. Those cars were small. They were Japanese-style freight cars, and they were small. We had nothing but straw on the floor and a sleeping bag, but it was a summer sleeping bag, not a winter sleeping bag, and the stove didn't really heat the thing at all. There were slots in the side of the thing. Anyway. We didn't have any ammunition, and we would get shot at on the train. Now, nobody I know of got hit, but it made quite an impression. But still they didn't issue us any ammunition. There was a major in charge, and he was in the last car, which was a caboose kind of car, tight, a good stove, etc., etc. So whenever the train stopped we as lieutenants would run back and sit in his car with him and then take off again. Many of the soldiers would get off and run in to find somebody in the little town we stopped in and buy rot-gut whiskey. Boy, they were in trouble. One of the people in the car behind me, I was told, went blind on the spot. Maybe he was cured later, but it made an impression. We finally got to the capital of Pyongyang, and they put us on trucks and took us to what used to be a hospital. We went on about the fourth floor and were on cots, or on the floor, kind of thing, and at midnight that night some captain in the army came in and said, "OK, everybody out. Get down on the truck below. Let's go. Get your gear together." Well, we all didn't get there first, and the last of us were turned around and sent back. That batch was never heard from again. The next morning we were loaded on trucks and sent up. But before going they fed us a good breakfast. We went down into 13 the basement of this place -- it was steaming and dark down there -- and we had breakfast on some slate or granite tables. Steam is pouring out of the coffee pots, etc., and I filled my cup with coffee and took a big drink to discover that it was maple syrup. I went forward that day sick as a dog, sitting at the end, at the tail of that truck yurking all the way. I'm sure all those men I was traveling with, "Look hey there, look at that lieutenant. He's so scared he's puking," you know. We went on and eventually we came to a stop, and the captain who was leading this convoy came back and told us to get off the trucks and go into these schoolhouses that were available, right immediately, I mean, just saw them and said, "Take them." We went into the schoolhouse, and he turned around and went back to get "another load," quote, unquote. We never saw him again; he never came back. Here we are with no ammunition, carrying guns, living in a schoolhouse, and the Chinese are moving in on us. They were moving down the mountains on both sides of this thing, and then there was a tremendous, tremendous loss of life up the mountain further, coming toward us. The 38th Regiment that I joined after we got out -- I get the men out, and then I jumped on a mess truck headed south, all trying to find where the headquarters for the 38th Regiment was. The 38th Regiment was part of the 2nd Division, and it lost in about two days, coming through a real tight trap -- there was a river, there was a road that wasn't wide enough for two tanks to pass, and then there was a mountain again on the other side, and the Chinese are up on both sides just raking the convoy. One truck stops, you know, they've got to push it off the edge to get the convoy going again. Now I wasn't a part of that, but I joined the company that did, and when I finally caught up with my unit, it was because I had stopped in from the schoolhouse when I saw the 1st Cavalry Division people pull on in close to us, so I went over and inquired. I walked into the TOC, the tactical operation center, and there was a major sitting in front of a map, on a stool, making little marks on it. I waited a while, and he didn't notice me, and finally I said, "Sir, could you tell me where the 38th Regiment is?" and he turned around and said, "No, but where's the division? Where is the 2nd Division?" I said, "Sir, I have no idea. We're trying to find it. We were left off down here." He said, "I don't know where they are. If you --" It was that confusing. They lost something like 4,000 men coming out of that gap. Now, I wasn't affected, not at all, in any way. I was scared to death at times, but then after that I joined the 38th Regiment. When I went in to meet Colonel Pappal -- yeah, something like that -- he shook hands with one, and passed me a bottle of whiskey with the other one, and said, "Son, you're going to need this." I reported in to the battalion commander, and he at the time was meeting with his staff in a little hutch where the Vietnamese -- the Vietnamese -- the Koreans built their houses of mud and mud brick, and they would cook in an open room attached to the house, and the smoke would go under the floors and heat the house. We were sitting on one of those floors, warm and toasty, and they were passing the bottle of whiskey around this circle as we talked about (inaudible) [00:59:47]. By that time the bottle of whiskey got pretty hot. (laughs) It was a very strange circumstance. When he finally got to it, the battalion commander said to me, he said, "Todd, you're going down to A Company." I said, "Sir, and who commands A Company?" He said, "You do." I had about as much opportunity to learn infantry tactics and lead a rifle 14 company as nobody at all. My buddy who I was traveling with who had some experience in World War II in combat in Europe, came back and went to the University of Illinois, and then came into the army the same as I did, through the (inaudible) [01:00:34], he was sent down to a company that already had an experienced commander. You know. Nobody was thinking. I sent the first sergeant back to division headquarters, he got commissioned, and he came back, and essentially he told me what we ought to be doing. Then we did it. Until MacArthur issued an order, that probably came to him to do it, that said all armored officers that had been assigned to infantry units are to be returned to armored units. So I went down to the regimental tank company of the regiment where my company commander, before coming over there, was an infantry officer who was aide to camp to the commanding general who gave him the tank company in the 38th regiment who didn't know a damn thing about tanks. It was really screwed up everywhere. At a point when I was running the rifle company, I was told that a replacement was on the way, flying in, and he would replace me as company commander. Oh, great, that's good news. The guy showed up, and during World War II he had been in the air force as a bombardier. He had absolutely no infantry experience. He had joined the nearest reserve unit to his home when he was discharged. It really wasn't working out. Where we got replacements, the adjutant would go down and say, "Has anybody been through armored training?" Nobody. Nobody. So there wasn't anybody to send to the armored company except the people that came in (inaudible) [01:02:41]. So we were training these guys, but we weren't -- there were some old sergeants that really knew what they were doing, and that's we made. We eventually had a pretty good tank company. I remember my sergeant was a gruff, old son of a bitch. I walked up to a formation he was holding one day, and his back was to me, and I was walking toward the platoon. And I heard him say "The kid says we got to --" I said uh-oh. "Sergeant [Beach?], come with me," and we went in to see the company commander. I told the company commander that I couldn't resolve this one. He said, oh, very well, I'll assign someone else." Sergeant [Beach?] remained behind. Wow, I've done it. Sergeant Beach comes out. I said, "What happening Sergeant?" and he said, "I'm going to be the lieutenant in charge of the other platoon." Ahhh, God, you know. (laughs) It just wasn't the army I knew later on. Yeah. It was a very sad arrangement. It really wasn't until General Walker was killed in a jeep accident, and he was the 8th Army commander, and they sent General Van Fleet over to run it, and we by that time had moved 125 miles to the rear. We were running as an army. Word got out very quickly that General Van Fleet's orders were "I don't want to see your plans of defense, I want to see your plans of attack." And everyone says, "Sure, sure, General. You look at them, and you'll be all alone up there." Well, by God, he took that army and straightened it out and moved it forward and stopped the Chinese, without much additional support. It was amazing to see that happen. I'll never forget that, that one man deciding that he's going to turn the army around and you'd better fall in line. I did have one experience before that happened when I was with the tank company, and I was in a jeep riding down a road, and the division commander had decided that since we had all these losses, and we're all screwed up, that he had a way to make us all feel proud of ourselves and identify. The methodology he used was that one regiment would have a mustache, another regiment would have sideburns, and another 15 would have goatees. Crazy, just crazy. But I'm driving down the road, and an assistant division commander, a one star, is coming this way, and he went right by, and I saluted, and then he stopped and hollered back at me. I jumped out and ran down to his jeep. He said, "You're not obeying the division commander's orders." I said, "Sir, what do you mean?" He said, "You shaved." I said, "No, sir, I've never shaved." (laughter) God. Yeah. But General Van Fleet really pulled that into order, and he relieved a lot of people. He relieved my brigade commander, gave us a lieutenant to be the colonel's slot in the brigade, who turned out to wind up with four stars in the end. They made the mechanism work. JC: Amazing. Now, you were awarded the Medal for Valor in Korea, weren't you? RT: Yeah. I got a Bronze Star for Valor and a Silver Star for Valor, neither of which I really want to talk about much. I think somebody else would have done better to have them than me. I mean, I was pleased, happy to receive it, proud to wear it on my uniform kind of thing, but there was a lot of that going on to bolster up morale of everybody. JC: Is there anything else you want to say about Korea? RT: I don't know. At the end it was a pretty good experience. When we had gone into a stalemate, we started a rotation system back to the United States, and it was a point system. If you came within a certain period of time, then you could go back at a date specific, so we all knew when we'd be going back. There were points for the kind of job you had and all this kind of thing. It was interesting, I went back to Japan, spent a few days in Japan. When we got on the boat I was assigned -- as I had on the way over -- to a large stateroom, and I think there were 12 of us in it, and up and down cots. It was the same gang I went over with. You know, the timeline of where you engaged in combat were the same for all of us, in different units, and that was really pretty special. Two of them, only two of them, didn't come back, and they were both infantry officers. To the best of my knowledge, from the 38th Regiment that I was familiar with, the lieutenants didn't go back whole. The majority of them were killed. Those that were wounded were wounded seriously enough that they didn't come back to the unit. So it was us armored guys that, essentially, came back together, went over together and came back together. Stopped in Hawaii on the way back, pulled into the port, and there's all these hula girls down on the thing, people with big signs, "Welcome Home, Veteran." I said, "Hell, I'm not a veteran. That's a guy that sits outside the post office trying to sell pencils." (laughs) That came as a bit of a shock to us. But, yeah. JC: Well, once you got back to the United States where were you stationed? RT: Before I got back to the United States, on R&R in Japan, I knew of my rotation date. I called Carol, who by that time had finished her year after Smith at Radcliffe, taking the first year of the Harvard Business School program at Radcliffe -- business school faculty, business school-devised location, Radcliffe. I called her and said, "How about meeting me in New York City on such and such a date at the Biltmore Hotel? We'll meet under the clock." Now, meeting under the clock, there'd been a movie about that whole 16 business. So she did, and we went to my family's house. They'd moved to Scarsdale, New York, at that point. I asked her to marry me. She said, "Give me a couple of weeks." So I went back to visit my family. They're not my immediate family, my grandparents in Quincy, Massachusetts, and my other grandparents in Dorchester, Massachusetts. I went to -- my uncle, my mother's brother, ran a hardware store that had originally been his father's, and he said, "What are you going to do about a car?" I said, "I got to get one." I sold my car before I went over. He said, "Well, I've got a good friend who's honest, and I think we can get a good car." So I went over that afternoon and bought a car and called Carol, and I said, "I bought a car today." She said, "A convertible?" and I said, "Yes," and turned it in the next day and got a convertible. (laughter) I'd do anything to make sure she's sweet. She said yes, we were married on the nineteenth of June of that year, and she obviously had to quit her job to become an army wife. JC: So where did you all go after that? RT: The first station when we returned, and I'm talking now about the same group of army officers that went over and came back together, also went to Fort Knox, and we lived in newly-built quarters that were built by a civilian contractor on the edge of there, which were great for a newly-married couple, but they certainly weren't anything special. George and Joanne Patton lived next door to us, a small world, yeah. I've lost my train of thought here now. (break in audio) JC: And we'll get back started. All right, so we were talking about Fort Knox. RT: Fort Knox being a first assignment together in the army was really great. So different. I mean, Fort Knox was organized. Everything was working well. People were happy. Not that we weren't working hard, because we really were. My first assignment was to a training division. It took the number of the division, the third, and replicated it and then trained, basic training. I was in the 2nd Brigade headquarters working on the planning and that kind of thing. I really was disappointed that I wasn't one of the company commanders, but it turns out that that was a tough job. In the tank company, the guy that headed the tank company had more tanks than a tank division, and it was a mess to keep them all straightened out and going around. So one day I went back home for lunch, and Mrs. George Patton, Sr., was sitting in the living room of our house talking to Carol. She had come down to Fort Knox because George and Joanne had just been married, and Joanne got some kind of disease when they were on the honeymoon in the Caribbean. And I reintroduced myself to Mrs. Patton, and we sat down and talked. She asked me what my job was, and I told her. I said, "But I've got to go. I've got an appointment this afternoon to see the commanding general. They're looking for an aide to camp to the commanding general, and I really don't want that job. I really would prefer to get an opportunity to command a company in the division here." She said, "Russell, General Collier is a very, very fine man. He has a 17 fine family life. He is a very, very successful soldier who commanded the 2nd Armored Division at the end of the war in Berlin. You could learn an awful lot working for him." So I went over, and I got the job, and for the next two years I was the junior aide to the commanding general. I did such things as travel with him when he went to different places for different purposes. My buddies all got a hold of me when they found out I was going to do this job, and all had things they wanted changed at Fort Knox, and I was to be their agent in telling the commanding general how he could change the place. Very early on we went out of the headquarters, down the steps, into the car, went past the post theater. I thought, well, here goes. I said, "Sir, do you realize that on this post now an officer must be in his full dress uniform in order to go to the movies?" He said, "Yes, I know that, and it will remain that way." I didn't have many new ideas for him after that. (laughs) He'd go over to the armor school, and the people that are teaching in the combat kinds of business would say, "This is what we're doing now, General, and what do you think? We'd like your approval of it," and I'd sit in the back of the room and listen to what was going on, and understand it. I would hear the people that had served in combat talk about what you ought to do, and I got a great education. Also, every year there was something called the Armor Warfighting Conference. Twice I was there for that. They bring in all the people that belong to the Armor Association, or were serving in an armored position, all the senior people, and they'd talk about what the army ought to be doing in armor. One of my jobs was to go into the airport in the general's big sedan and his chauffer and pick these guys up and drive them back to the post, and I'd chat with these guys, and it was really fun. I got to know an awful lot of people, army commanders, army staff members, and all this. I really felt pretty special that I'd had this kind of an opportunity. Then we also had at Fort Knox in that time frame an armor board. This armor board, when General I. D. White was the commander at Fort Knox -- before General Collier -- that the chief of staff of the army was not pleased with the way the chief of ordnance was managing the tank program and gave the responsibility to the commanding general at Fort Knox. All the bigwigs gathered at Fort Knox to make decisions about what the next tank would look like, what the next armored personnel carrier would look like, etc., etc. Again, I sat in the back of the room, and young captains and majors, most of them West Point graduates who'd gone off to graduate school and were coming back and using their talents. It was a great, great opportunity for me. We were always invited to the house when the Colliers were having a party, and people would say, "Oh, you're going over there and pass the cigarette butts around with them, aren't you?" "No, we don't do that. We're part of that group." Mike Popowski here in town, his dad was one of those colonels on the post at that time. I really got to know all those people. Not that it was doing me any good, but I learned from them, you know. I learned how to act, I learned when to shut up. It was very useful, and it was a great time. The Colliers were magnificent to us. We had a child while we were living there -- it was Tom, and Tom got burnt badly in an accident at our house. He was crawling across the floor, and there was a coffee pot that started percolating, and he looked up and pulled on the cord, and it came over and broke open on his back. The Colliers came over and relieved us of our 24-hour duty, and they took it over; they sat with that baby. We were their family. It was amazing; it was wonderful. 18 Yeah. I began to really understand what the army was about, that it could be a good army. JC: Well, after Fort Knox where did you go? RT: Let's see. Oh, yeah. When General Collier left, he was to be promoted and going to go to Korea, and he offered me the opportunity to go with him, and I told him that I would much prefer to have a tank company in Europe. While I loved the guy and his family, I wanted a tank company in Europe. He said, "We'll take care of that," and he called up the commanding general of the 2nd Armored Division in Europe, the one that they call Chubby Doan, and told him the situation and that I would be on orders to go over to the 2nd Armored Division and a tank company. He said, "I'll give him a tank company." So, wow! You know, we made it, and off we go to Europe. We pull into Bremerhaven, which is the northern port in Germany, and they send forth a little craft to meet the boat. A sergeant first class climbs up the rope ladder and comes over and starts telling people what their orders are going to be, and I was ordered to something called the 13th Military Intelligence Group. I thought, oh, my God, something's wrong here. The colonel who was in charge of us all on the boat, for the boat trip, he got his orders, and he opened it up, and it's the 13th MIG. He said, "What's an MIG?" I said, "The best I know it's a Russian airplane." (laughs) It turned out that he thought he was going to the 1st Infantry Division for a regiment. Well, we got off the boat, and both of us went down to this intelligence group, went through two different fences, guards posted in towers and all the rest of it, and slept in an open bay area over the officers' club. There were a number of other offices there, and they said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "I don't know. I'm here by mistake. I'm headed to the 2nd Armored Division." They said, "No, no, you aren't. We're all in the same business, fellow. Tell us where you're going." And I said, "No, no. I'm an officer, and I'm going to --" They said, "We understood an armored officer was coming, and he was going to go underground and behind the Iron Curtain, and report on the Russian movements." Holy Crow! That's not for me. So the next morning I went down and asked authority to see the commanding officer of the 513th [sic] MIG. He spoke with me, and he said, "No, you're going down. You're not going to do that; that's rumor. You're going down to the headquarters in Heidelberg, and you're going to be an intelligence officer in that headquarters." I said, "I'm not an intelligence officer." He said, "That's your orders." OK. So I went down to Heidelberg. General Jim Phillips was the G2 at the time, and I asked to see him, and I went right up to his office and told him my sad story, that I was going to go to the 2nd Armored Division -- and he was an armored officer -- "Now here I am an untrained specialist in your department." He said, "What were you going to do?" I said, "Well, General Doan in the 2nd Armored Division had accepted me to come and be in tank company." He says, "I'll talk to him about that," and he reached over -- they had a red phone system that red phones went to the different generals in different locations -- he picked it up and dialed 27 or whatever it was, and General Doan answers the phone, and I'm sitting there. He said, "I got a young captain sitting here that tells me he's supposed to be in the division. Tell me about him, what are you going to do with him?" Well, poor old General Doan hadn't remembered much about the phone conversation a couple of 19 months before or something, and said, "Well, I'm going to make him my aide." And he said, "Like hell you are. I'm keeping him here for that." (laughs) I did it all over again for another two years in the headquarters at [Usera?]. [01:26:32] It was a great experience. General and Mrs. Phillips were a mother and dad to us; they'd invite us to Sunday dinner, and little Tom would crawl around the floor or under the table, and General Collier would feed him peanuts or something. It was a wonderful time, and when the Colliers would take a trip and borrow the commander in chief's train, we went with them. It was marvelous. I saw all of Europe. I knew most everything that was going on in the intelligence field, and it was a great experience with wonderful people. But when he got assigned to go back to the United States, I took the Colliers up to the port to put them on. When I came back, this again on the commander in chief's train, I had the train stop in Mannheim, and I got off in Mannheim. I wasn't going to be stopped again and reported in to the 57th Tank Battalion and for the last year there had a tank company. That was probably the greatest experience of my life. It really was a good experience. We were hard training, we were well trained, good people. In the beginning we had a wonderful commander who was a major, and the division commander, General Doan, didn't want to put a lieutenant colonel in that slot. He wanted this man to get that experience, but eventually they had to pull him and let -- the lieutenant colonels were backing up. So we were out maneuvering and we came to the last day of the maneuvers, and the new battalion commander arrives, and we have this party in a beer hall. The new commander arrives, and one of the company commanders in Charlie Company walked up to the head table with two boots of beer. You know what that is? Glass things that replicate a boot. Big. He puts one in front of each of the two commanders and says, "Let's see who's the better man." This poor guy that has just got off the train coming down from Bremerhaven and crossed the ocean picks up his boot and starts to drink. The battalion commander we love drinks it down and wins the contest, and the new battalion commander was so tight from drinking that beer too fast his feet slipped out from under him as he sat at that table and went right down under the table. (laughter) That was his first day of duty, and he didn't improve much after that. We were all pretty cocky, the company commanders; we were doing a lot of good things. But he knew nothing about it. We told him -- we were told that he had served in a tank battalion in World War II, and that's all we knew about him. It sounded great to us, a guy with some real experience. Well, it turns out that he reported in to a replacement company, and they said, "Take this truckload of men and go forward to point A. There will be a sign on the road at so many miles or kilometers. Turn left in there, and that's where your unit will be." Well, he got down there and made the turn, then went up, and three Germans come out and say, "Achtung! Put him in the compound!" and he went directly to the prisoner-of-war camp. He never had any experience. He'd been a public information officer before, and he was terrible. He was so bad that in a morning meeting every time, when he would suggest something the other three company commanders, we'd sort of nod or shake no. And "Well, what's the matter?" You know why? We didn't get any leadership out of him at all. When it came time to leave there, I had probably the most frightening experience in my life. He stood up in front of the entire battalion officer group and said, "Well, now that Captain Todd is leaving maybe I can take command of this battalion." Oh, my God. 20 Oh, my God. He gave me an efficiency report that would sink anybody, but it just turned out that in that moment of time the army changed the efficiency report system whereby your commander rates you, and his boss rates you, and then a third person rates what they did. Well, the third person turns out to have been the fellow that had been recently the brigade commander, and he knew me, he knew my performance, etc., and he sent back the efficiency report to be redone. Ho. (laughs) Yeah. Those were good times though, good times. Scary times, but testing, really testing you. JC: Because you were right there in Germany during really the height of the Cold War. RT: Yeah. As a matter of fact, one time we were out on maneuvers, 200 miles from our base, when the French and British moved into Suez, because the Egyptians said they were taking over the canal. There we are sitting out in the woods saying, "Oh, my God," because the president had said, "Oh, no, you don't." Eisenhower said, "No, you don't. You can't do that. We give you a lot of money to bring your economies back from the war, and we'll stop it tomorrow unless you withdraw." But we didn't know all that, and my guys are saying "We're going to gyro to Cairo," you know, that (laughter) kind of stuff. We finally came back. But if we'd had to go, I haven't seen a unit that would be any more ready than we were. Yeah. It was really a great exper-- In a company command, everybody doesn't have to bypass the battalion commander who's a dud. But when you do have to do that, then you're really thinking on your feet. It was great. JC: What was your next assignment after that? RT: Would you believe back to Fort Knox? JC: Oh, really? RT: Yeah. I went back there to go to the Armor Officer Advanced Course, which was a nine-month course in there, in which they were teaching you at the next level. Now the course we took before at Fort Knox was a course we should have had before we went to Korea. I came away with a great impression of how good that was. It was excellence. When I saw General Collier working with the instructors and telling them how to handle this kind of thing. When I came back three years later, it was a well-organized organization. In fact, General Abrams had been there as the head of the command department. It was a first class education. I really and truly look back upon my Norwich experience as not up to that standard that the army was producing there. At the end of that course I had talked my way into becoming one of the instructors in the command department, and I was thrilled to death about that. On graduation day I'm sitting in my chair on the aisle, and as the assistant commandant went by my seat he stopped and said, "You're going to be working in my office." (laughs) So I then worked for Colonel Chandler, who was a first-rate soldier. He had been horse cavalry, in the Philippines, and was on the Bataan death march. He was really very much a gentleman, very much strong willed, and very much of a tutor, and I worked out of his office. My job was to arrange the schedules of the classes, and we had all kinds of classes -- enlisted classes, officer classes -- so that they would mesh how 21 many people, how many classrooms do we need, how many instructors do we need, on what day are we going to do it? I was bringing home page after page of long paper, and on the kitchen floor working out the details of making this thing work. It was great, but, again, there was an intermediary. There was a lieutenant colonel who was my immediate supervisor who, again, I thought to be a dud. On my first day of working there he said, "That's your desk right over there." And I'm, "Yes, sir." I went over to my desk. Now what do I do? Here I am, I found my desk. There was a major sitting at a desk facing me who never looked up. He was just scribbling away, scared to death of this guy evidently. A few minutes later he came over and said, "Well, here's the first project I want you to do. This is it. I want you to study this, and then rewrite it, and we'll discuss it." Fine. It wasn't five minutes later, he came over and said, "No, I want you to do this one instead." I went through about six of those before I understood what I was doing. I was hopeless that anything was really going to happen. That same day he came over and looked over my shoulder, and I looked up, and he said, "What are you writing there?" I said, "Well, sir, I'm writing myself a note so that I will be able to put these things in the appropriate order." He said, "Well, you're not saying it very well." (laughter) It was awful. My out was Colonel Chandler, and a major got assigned to the office, and he very quickly understood what was going on here and went in and talked to Colonel Chandler, and Colonel Chandler moved him out. Again, we got a very, very fine operating organization going. It was good; it was very successful. But, you know, every time there's some kind of a roadblock in your career, you've got to stop and figure out how the hell you're going to get around it. JC: What was after Fort Knox? RT: Twenty more years of -- let's see. I graduated from Fort Knox. I was selected below the zone for a promotion. Do you know what that means? JC: Uh-uh. RT: When you're considered for promotion a board meets in Washington, and everybody whose career appears between this date and this date is considered. Isn't that right? Well, what they started, and I don't know if they're still doing it or not -- I think they are -- they would go below this zone and choose certain people to be examined with this group, and I was lucky enough to do that and really jumped ahead. In the headquarters there was Major Howard from Norwich University. Major Howard didn't graduate from here, but he was an instructor when I was a student here. He was in another department, or I didn't see much of him. But when I came out on the below-the-zone list, there were two of us at Fort Knox that came out on it, and he called me on the phone, and he said, "Well, I thought Frank would make it, but I never thought you would." (laughter) So things are weird, but Leavenworth was an exciting time. I was a captain. The majority of people were majors and lieutenant colonels. A real shock of my life in the first day was seated at tables, and there's a blank card in front of you, and the instructor said, "Now write your name on it, not your rank. Write your name on that card." Well, the guy sitting opposite me was a lieutenant colonel, and I was a captain, and I don't know his rank. What do I call him? We were all calling each other by their first names 22 rather than you find in a unit. That (inaudible) [01:41:04] like that, I'm up against it here. So I worked hard, harder than I've ever worked, and at the end of the halfway mark in the course they gave us standings of where you stand in the course, and I was number five or something. I said, "I'm working too hard." Yeah, that was good, a good period in our life. We had Saturdays and Sundays off. I had a little golf group I played with on Saturdays, and Michelob beer was local out there. We'd buy a pitcher -- the loser would buy a pitcher of beer, and that was a big deal. That was a big deal. JC: So when did you go to graduate school at the University of Alabama? RT: Strange you should ask that. When I came to the end of the course at Leavenworth a general officer, a brigadier general, came out to the course to announce to the armor officers, to the infantry officers, etc., what your next assignment would be. About the third name he read was a good friend of mine, and when he read off where he was to go this guy went "Ooohhh." The general looked down at him and said, "What's the problem?" He said, "Sir, I don't think anybody in your office ever read my request." "Oh." He said, "Major so-and-so, come out here." The guy comes out from behind the curtain with a big notebook, and the guy flaps through it, and he looks down, and he says, "I don't know what you're complaining about. It says right here, 'Anywhere in the world but Fort Knox.' And you're going to Fort Knox, your second choice." (laughter) Then he got to my name, and he said, "I want to see you right after this." I thought, oh, God, what now? So I went in, and he was in his office. There was a temporary office. And he said, "We've got a problem here," and I said, "Sir, what is it?" He said, "Well, they've got you going to graduate school, and as the chief armor officer I want you to go to an armored unit." I said, "I have a choice?" He said yes. I said, "Where will I go if I go to an armored unit?" He thought for a minute, and he said, "You'll go to the tank battalion in Hawaii." I said, "Can I discuss this with my wife at lunch?" and he said, "Sure," and I came back and said, "We have decided that we're going to go to graduate school," and that's how that worked out. JC: So you went to Tuscaloosa instead of Hawaii. RT: Yeah. (laughs) JC: Now, what degree did you get at Alabama? RT: MBA. It was a good tough course, but it was in the process of changing the curriculum of business schools, and some of it was very tough. Part of it was very simple, but some of it was very tough. I established a schedule where I went in very early in the morning, got in there before 7:00 every morning, went down to the basement of the library where I had an assigned carrel and started working until it was time for a class to begin. I'd go up to the class and go back to the basement, eat my lunch in the basement, go home at 5:00, and hardly ever did any midnight work at home. We lived a good, wonderful family life in Tuscaloosa. Now, it wasn't all easy. There had been the problems of the colleges not admitting blacks, and the president of the United States pushing hard to make them do it. 23 Then there were the riots at Ole Miss, right at that time. The army sent down its chief person who determines whether the applicants will go to college -- army applicants -- and to which college they will go to. So we all gathered, and there were people taking nuclear physics, and [we have to?] discuss with him, and he talked it back and forth, etc. Finally one young captain in the back said, "Sir, this is all very interesting, but the army's practically at war with our citizens. What the hell happen-- What do we do? What are our orders, and what are our instructions here at the University of Alabama, if the same kind of thing breaks out on this campus?" This poor old duffer who'd been the president of some college someplace sort of shook his head and said, "Well, I hope you'd be on the side of the government." (laughter) That hit right in the heart of soldiers. But it was a good program. When I left I was going to be assigned to the headquarters in US Army Europe in the comptroller's office, and you're required to stay in that position for three years to make up for your being chosen for that job. They want to use your knowledge and experience. Just before I left they changed it, and I went to the US Army Support Command in France, which had 57 separate organizations that it commanded, to include a pipeline that came in at St. Nazaire and went out to all of the air bases and army refueling, etc., and repair of tanks, repair of everything. We took German factories over, used Germans. It was a very, very exciting assignment in terms of technology, but I got assigned to the comptroller's office in that damn headquarters, and I was one of three soldiers. The rest were all civilian employees, or French. One of the people that worked for me was from Yugoslavia; he'd escaped Yugoslavia. So it was a mixed up kind of place. We lived at a French house down by the railroad station. We didn't want to live in the government quarters, we'd done enough of that. We wanted to have an experience in France. From that point of view, it was wonderful. The job was terrible, just terrible. They expected me to know everything that they did in their routine because I'd been to this business program. Well, I had to really move fast to catch up with them. My boss was a man by the name of [Birossi?]. He'd been an Italian-American soldier in World War II who married an Italian and never went home, and when they created the support command then he stayed on in Europe and became a very important man in the headquarters as the budget manager of this very vast organization. I worked like hell to try and get it straightened out. They first gave me the responsibility of working the budget of a couple of the major organizations, one the tank rebuild plant, which was -- God, it looked like General Motors out there. I finally got frustrated with it all. We'd all sit in a room, roll out our papers, and bring in the guy, the comptroller, from that organization, and you'd sit facing each other with Mr. [Birossi?] looking over your shoulder, and you'd work out a budget for them. How the hell did I know? I didn't have any basis for doing it, but we'd discuss it to get it. When this was all over and calmed down I said, "This is stupid as hell," to [Birossi?]. He said, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "We've got the world's best information technology program right in this headquarters, those guys that are working the plants do it all by technical means, punch cards, and here we are sitting around trying to argue about a number on a sheet of paper that doesn't mean a damn thing." He said, "What do you suggest?" I said, "I suggest we go to talk to them, get onto their system somehow, and work this thing out that we can make a reasonable stab at it." He said, "OK, wise guy, do it." 24 Now, there was a lieutenant colonel in this overall office who was Birossi's boss, and I went to see him and told him, I said, "Now, I'm not competent to do this. There's no question about it. However, if you give me two of those young captains of finance that work down the hall from me, I can get this thing started and going." So he assigned these two guys to me, and we changed the whole system of how we did the budgeting of US Army Europe. I got some kind of an award for that. Then they put me in another job where I had all kinds of stupid responsibilities. I had a responsibility for efficiency of each of these many, many organizations, and I got permission to send people -- Frenchmen -- back to the United States to be trained in each of those depots to do it. Then we pulled all of this together right as the secretary of defense had initiated a program to improve work force relationships, his program, and they sent it out and said, "Everybody in the army, navy, and the air force will use these procedures." And my two-star boss said, "No, we won't. We're not doing that. We got a god system, we just got it started, and, well, that's the way it will be." OK, you're the boss. So six weeks later, maybe two months later, there's a message sent to the commanding general that said "We're sending over someone from the Department of Defense to look at your program." I got called in to the CG's office, and he said, "You got two weeks to put this program in place." Well, you know, I was put into a position where I got attention, and I could do what I wanted to do, and I could get help to do it, and everything just sort of worked together. It was a great experience. But, again, it's a case of speaking up and saying what you think is wrong and finding a way to do it. I went in on the train from Orleans into Paris to the IBM plant with boxes of punch cards in my (inaudible) [01:53:43] and brought them into IBM, and we worked it out with them to do it at first before we turned it over to our own organization. That's because if we screwed it up, we'd screw them up badly. But those two finance captains did all the work. I just plowed ahead. Another time, in that same job -- I really thought -- when I got there I said, "My career is ruined. My career is ruined. Who's going to believe that I was in a damn headquarters for a support group? No, uh. I'm an armored guy. No." But anyway, they came up with another program, again, out of the Department of Defense. This time it was to work specifically with -- I can't remember the name of it, but, again, it came out of the secretary of defense's office, and again I got the job to do it. But this time I had an opportunity to start from the beginning with it. It was a matter of saving money, and we were supposed to put out programs, out to our subordinate units, and help them find money and other ways of doing business (inaudible) [01:55:09]. We started with the laundries, a simple thing, and went into the laundries with the people we trained, and they would say to the laundress, "How can you do your job better?" They'd say, "Well, I've been working at this for six years. If we did this, and that, and the other thing," and all of a sudden we weren't doing anything but saying "How do you do it?" and then helping them do it, and getting their boss to agree to it. Well, then you had to take all this information and turn it over to another agency who would check your figures, and numbers, and back and forth, and everything. That all seemed to work out, and things were going along rather well when they put me in for an award as the civilian of the year for product improvement. I was called (laughs) into Heidelberg, and they put on a parade, and the commanding general and I are -- there were other people, for other reasons, being recognized that day. I'm standing 25 beside the commanding general when the troops are passing in review, and he said, "What the hell are you doing here? This is a civilian award." I said, "Sir, you signed it." (laughter) And off we went. I just kept working. Living there was great sport, except the French are crazy. We lived in a neighborhood, as I said, on Rue de la Gale, and the house was an old one. It was rent controlled, and we had to slip the landlord money on certain days, and you'd walk up to his house with a paper bag full of money. A door would open, a hand would come out and grab the paper bag out of your thing, the extra money for the -- crazy. In the neighborhood we never made close friends except in one instance. Our youngest daughter, Ellen, went to French school. The other two kids refused; they were smart enough not to do it. Ellen and her friend [Pascale?] (inaudible) [01:57:36] walked to school with her mother and Carol, over to school. The ladies walked back from school. After lunch, walked over, back to get, march them over, again, at the end of the school day. And they talked, and they talked, and they talked. Not a single word of English was ever spoken for three years between these two women. We get back to the United States and got a very nice letter from her, in English, and she said, "You never would have improved your French the way you did if you knew I had been a nanny in Great Britain and speak English." (Cates laughs) Now, that's the dirtiest, rottenest trick I can ever imagine happening. (laughter) When we had a problem with the house, you'd try and go out and find someone that would fix the faucet. Now, there are four sizes of pipe, and there are 12 sizes of faucets, and there are 14 sizes -- and they ask you which one do you want? You don't know. So somebody has to come and measure it and go back, and two days later you've got water running again. When it came time to buy coal, we went down to the place you buy coal, and it was a storefront on the main road, right in the main store, and he's got little glass canisters with different kinds of coal in the window. You don't buy coal that way anywhere else in the world. We went in, and he wanted to know how many radiators we had in the house, and how many veins each radiator had, and how many sections were in the stove, and then he could figure out how many tons it would take to heat the house. He didn't ask if there was any broken windows, or open doors, or boards off on the roof. They did it totally unscientific. Then when you come to that decision, then they say, "Now do you want it from Belgium? Do you want it from --" you know, down the list. We want anthracite from Belgium, OK. Then they come and dump it in the house with buckets in the window of the cellar, and the whole house is covered with coal dust everywhere. And it was expensive. Living there was not easy, but we made a pact that we were going to go once a month with the kids to Paris, every time, every month, and we did, and we traveled a lot. Not any great distances, but we loved parts of France. But the French were very difficult to live with. JC: Oh, I'm sure. I've been there once. (laughs) RT: The worst one was my father had a cousin who was, in relationship to Dad, it was about six up from him in the corporation, and he was the chairman of the board. We got a call that he was coming to visit the French company that was owned by the American company, and they were going to come down and see us in this hovel (laughs). And just about the time we knew that they were coming but not exactly when they were coming, 26 the French left us with a bit of a problem. When they put in the sewer system, they left the septic tank in the house, in the basement, made of clay, and it began to leak. Do you have any idea what living in that house was like? You couldn't flush a toilet. When I'd go off to work and leave Carol, they had a deal with these crazy guys coming in, and eventually they came in. One guy came in, and he took off the top of this thing, and then he went away. She chased him down, and he said, "Oh, you've got to hire somebody else. The union won't allow me to put the hose down in here and suck out what's left. You've got to find that guy." And it went on, and on, and on, and trying to live in that house. Fortunately we got it cleaned up before Uncle George showed up for lunch. (laughter) JC: Sounds like it was quite difficult living in that house. RT: It was very difficult. Every single day one of us crossed the street to the bakery that was directly across the street from us, and we'd order a demi pan, and bring it back for breakfast, or something else. And every single day that one of us went, my own experience was I'd walk in the door -- "Bonjour, Madame." (laughter) The only guy that spoke to us lived next door, and the reason he spoke to us was that nobody else in the neighborhood, or the town, or the city would speak to him, because he had been a butcher during the Nazi occupation and gave the Nazis all the best cuts of meat. We had no phones. It took three years to get a phone, and it was a three-year tour. If you got a phone, you had nobody to call; they'd all gone home. They're crazy, just crazy. (laughs) JC: So what was the next assignment after France? RT: Well, while in France the Vietnam War broke out, and people lieutenant colonel level in Europe were being pulled back to the United States and given a command in Vietnam. So I applied to get a command in Vietnam, and they said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, you haven't finished your tour for having gone to graduate school. You can't possibly go." This is talking to somebody back in Washington. Then another job opened up, and they needed a lieutenant colonel in an armored battalion, and I called them back again. I said, "I'll come back to this job after that. How about that?" "Nope, we can't do that. We can't do that." Eventually they said, "OK, when you come home from --" I put enough pressure on them. "When you come home from France, we'll send you to Vietnam." And when we came home from France, they said, "No, you're going to go to the Armed Forces Staff College. You've been selected among the army, navy, and air force to go to the Armed Forces Staff College, for six months. After that, we'll get you a job that will get you to Vietnam." Well, you know, it's frustrating, just terribly frustrating. After the Armed Forces Staff College they told me I would go to Vietnam, but first I would go to pick up 57 tanks that had just been manufactured of a new design, and I was to form the tank battalion in the United States, train it in the United States, and take it to Vietnam. When that day came, ready to go, we had three rounds blow up in the chamber back at Aberdeen Proving Ground, and they said, "Hold it. You're no longer on the list to go. But you are going to go to the Naval War College." I couldn't get to Vietnam! It was very difficult. 27 JC: What was the Naval War College like? RT: Terrible. The Naval War College, well, we called it the sleeping room. They had two major speakers every day, one in the morning, and one in the afternoon. That was fine. I mean, I loved to hear them, and they did have a message, but it wasn't work. It was sitting there like you're turning on the television. There was no challenge to this thing at all. Now you could go and get a master's degree along with it from George Washington, but I couldn't, because I had a master's degree, so they weren't going to let me take that program. So they hired somebody the University of Massachusetts had fired from their Economics Department, an old man, to be my mentor and take me through a separate program -- nothing comes out of it other than a dissertation at the end. OK, I'll put up with it, but he was awful, and it was a waste of my time. You never had time between these people to really go to the library and do something. It was 20 minutes. What can you do in the library in 20 minutes? No, you don't. Everyone went and get good coffee, sat around and talked, etc. Oop, time to go back into the bedroom. There was nothing going on in terms of substance in the place. When I had my first time as directing my little group, I worked long and hard on the assignments, and came in the next morning and said, "OK, let's see. Now we had readings in this one, and then we had a differing opinion from this requirement, and then this one, and another one. Commander Jones, what do you think about this?" "Oh, shit," he said, "You don't think I pay any attention to that, do you? I'm in the George Washington program. I'm not going to do any of this." That was a general attitude. There wasn't any depth to what we were doing. One day the admiral in charge, who'd married a British lady and had just come back from another tour in London, said, "How would you like to have lunch at my house with a guest speaker, Todd?" I said, "Gee, that would be very nice, sir." I got up there to discover there were 12 or 13 of us at separate tables and he and the speaker was at another table. What did we do? We sat around and chatted, and ate his food, and left. He said, "How'd you like that?" I said, "What are you referring to, sir?" He said, "Well, the opportunity to be with the speaker." I said, "We weren't with the speaker. You were with the speaker." "Well, how would you handle that?" "I'd put in a round table, and we'd all sit around and talk." "What a great idea." Really, really bad stuff. So he did, and then he invited me to come, and I went, and he said, "How did that go?" I said, "Sir, that was wonderful. But if you did that in the classrooms it might help, too." "We don't have round tables in the classrooms?" He'd never been in a classroom. We didn't have one single naval officer who was nuclear qualified come to the course. They sent them to the National War College. We didn't have one single graduate of a senior college who was on the faculty. I could go on, and on, and on about how bad it was. But one day, in Vietnam, I was sitting at my desk outside General Abrams's office, and I got a call from the naval head in Vietnam. I'm trying to think of his name. I know it as well as I know my own. But anyway, he called me and said, "Russ, I got to see General Abrams." I said, "Well, he's tied up at the moment. Come on up and sit down, and I'll get you in just the minute I can break into it." He said, "Good," and he came up. We sat there, and he said, "I got to talk to General Abrams. They're going to announce this afternoon that I'm the new chief of naval operations, and I don't want him to hear it from anybody else but me." I said, "Oh, have I been waiting for this." He said, 28 "What are you talking about?" I said, "You can do something about the Naval War College that I couldn't," and I laid it out for him, and he fired the guy when he got back there. This is Zumwalt, Admiral Zumwalt. He fired the guy and changed all the programs. I mean, they were tough on him, and they've got a good school there now, or at least the last I knew of it, a very good school that has been accredited. But it was awful. JC: Did you finally get to Vietnam after the Naval War College? RT: Yeah, that's why I was sitting in General Abrams's office. I was to be sent over to be on the command list, which meant this list of people the army feels are capable of doing a job as colonel in a combat unit. They sent my name over, and then they called me back and said, "We've withdrawn your name." (sighs deeply) I said, "Come on, guys. This isn't fair." He's "Hold it, hold it, hold it. They're looking for an assistant to General Abrams, and we've sent your name in." I said, "Look, I've met General Abrams a few times. I don't think he was very impressed with me. I don't think he'll select me off of any list of yours." He said, "There is no list. We only sent your name." (laughter) So I went over there, and I sat for, oh, eight months I guess in General Cao Van Vien's office, who was the head of the Vietnamese armed forces, and I acted as a liaison between General Abrams and General Cao Van Vien, of which there was no requirement. Those guys talked to each other whenever they wanted to. But I represented General Abrams when General Cao Van Vien called the other -- the Koreans, the Australians, the New Zealanders, etc., etc. -- together on a Monday morning to have a meeting, and that was interesting, and I learned a lot, and I met a lot of people. Eventually the secretary of the staff rotated home, and I took his slot. You actually work for the chief of staff, but I read and decided which messages that came in that night would go into General Abrams the next morning, so I got to work very, very early and stayed very, very late, day after day after day, seven days a week. But I really loved working for the guy. Every Saturday morning we would meet with the commanders of the army, navy, air force, etc., the CIA, in the basement of our building, and it was general so-and-so, admiral so-and-so, etc., and Colonel Todd. And Colonel Todd sat in the back of the room and checked -- again, a great learning experience. Watching the interrelationship between these very, very senior commanders was a great experience. Then I went with General Abrams every Monday morning down to brief the ambassador. We'd drive down in his sedan. On Sunday I'd prepare a book for him that he'd go over, and then he'd have that in front of him. He never read it. He never sat in front of the ambassador and read it. I'd be on pins and needles all the time that he'd turn to me and say, "What the hell's this?" (laughs) But he was great. Then I got a command. I left the headquarters and went out and joined the 24th Division as a brigade commander, and I'd been there about eight days when it was announced that the brigade was to go home. (laughs) The next day I got a call on the radio, out flying around in my helicopter -- I had seven battalions in the brigade at the time -- from the corps commander, General Davidson, and General Davidson said, "Meet me at coordinates so-and-so," and we both flew into a point. He said, "I'm pulling you out of this. I've got a problem with the Royal Thai Army. The officer we have working 29 with them is not acceptable any longer to the Royal Thai Army. I need somebody tomorrow, and you're it." That was the craziest thing I've ever been involved in. Wonderful, wonderful Thai commander, who began his military experience at age five in a military academy run by the government. He finished his education in France. The French owned Indonesia. Thailand (inaudible) [02:16:30]. So there we were. Day in and day out, he and I would receive the same briefing. He'd get it in Thai, and his aide-de-camp would give it to me in English. We never ever, ever came to the same solution. We were generations in thought apart. For example, in World War II Thailand never declared war on anybody, but went to war against the Allied forces when they thought Japan was winning. This fellow was a captain in the Thai Army, and he did something very spectacular -- whatever it was, I don't know, very heroic. He was called back to the capital, and he was given the Royal Order of the White Elephant or something. They'd give out five for every war. This was something very, very special, parades, the whole business. He went back to his unit, and then the Thais decided that the Japanese weren't winning the war, and they changed and became our allies. Now you're not going to believe this. They called him back and took the medal because he was fighting on the wrong side. (laughs) I could go on forever on this. My brain couldn't absorb it. When I'd left that and gone back to the United States, I guess when this happened -- I don't remember where I was, but anyway, I wrote him a letter, and I said, "What in the world is going on in Bangkok? You were the commander of the 1st Division, responsible for the security of Bangkok. Your father-in-law is the dictator. They're rioting in the streets, and, to the best I know, nothing's happening." He wrote back to me, after some (inaudible) [02:19:06] time, and said, "Well, you just don't understand our way of thinking. The soldiers had killed some civilians who were rioting, so I went back to my BOQ and stayed there two weeks, and when I came back my father-in-law had been deposed, and the fighting was over." Huh? (laughs) And it wasn't that he wasn't a good soldier, and it wasn't that he was afraid of anything. No, we'd fly around in his damn helicopter and take it places I never would have gone. On the other hand, he had some VIPs coming over, and he said, "We can't take the helicopter today. I'm going to use it tomorrow for some Thai VIPs, and I don't want any fingerprints on it, I don't want to make sure there's no bullet holes in the thing. We'll just take this other thing." What? We couldn't come together. At one point, the real one that almost got me in trouble -- I think it was on Thanksgiving -- our base camp also had three units in it from the 1st Cavalry Division, and the Thais, and the Thais who were responsible for the security, and I was responsible to the US headquarters. Well, on the big army base, maybe 15 miles away, on Thanksgiving night everything went up in the air, flares, and shooting, and machine guns, and all the Thais thought this was great, and they all did it. He called me in the next morning, and he laid me out. He said, "No Thai would ever do that. Your Americans did this." Well, OK, I'll suck it up. "I assure you it won't happen again, sir." So come New Year's time, I put out to my staff with each of his units, where they normally served, to stay with them all night and record everything that happened in that TOC. Next morning he got me again when I went in there. I said, "Sir, before we say anything else, I suggest you talk to your TOC officer." He went down there, and those 30 guys, we made them record everything, and he discovered that it was his units that were doing it. What do you suppose his answer to that one was? JC: I don't know. RT: He called in his senior officers and said, "I'm resigning from the army. You've let me down." And he went back into his hooch and stayed there for about three days. I woke up at the end of three days early in the morning, and the whole goddamn Thai Army that was posted in Vietnam was out there in a formation. I walked out to see what was going on and stood behind him -- he was up on a platform -- and they all apologized, etc., and he forgave them, and they went back into the woods to their positions. They'd left their fighting positions to come back and apologize to the commanding general. JC: Oh, wow. RT: (laughs) You can find one worse than that, I'll bet. My goodness. JC: Want to stop again? (break in audio) JC: Let's stop here, because we've done about another hour and 10 minutes. (break in audio) RT: Let's -- (break in audio) [02:23:15] JC: All right, this is Joseph Cates. Today is May 19, 2016. This is my second interview with Major General Russell Todd. This interview is taking place at the Sullivan Museum and History Center. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. So when we left off last time we had gone through Vietnam, and you're ready for your next assignment. What was that? RT: OK. When the Royal Thai Army left Vietnam I moved out to a brigade, as I said earlier. But the time with the brigade was very unsatisfactory to me as a professional. It was a little more than a month, and that's not what I considered to be a command. So thinking about what would happen when I got home, I called to the Pentagon, talked to the people in armor branch. A lieutenant colonel sits on a desk and shuffles the papers for colonels and helps make the decisions. I told him I wanted to have a particular command at Fort Lewis, Washington, that I knew the command was about to change. And they said, "Oh, we've already appointed somebody to that port. But you are coming back to go to the Pentagon." 31 I had fought off the Pentagon earlier in my tour. When I was working for General Abrams I got a call from the Pentagon that said "We're bringing you back to the United States because a new position has opened up, and it calls for a brigadier general, and although you're only a colonel, we want you to fill that position." And I said, "Tell me about it." They said, "Well, you're going to be the army's first drug-and-alcohol-abuse officer." I said, "You've been watching what I'm drinking." He said, "No, this is what we've got in mind for you." And I said, "That isn't going to work. It just isn't going to work. I'm over here on a two-year tour, and if you want me to leave here, I'll give you General Abrams's telephone number, and you can call him and ask him to release me." Well, no, they didn't think they would do that. (laughs) So when I went back I went to the Pentagon, and there I went to work for a four-star general who I had met several times, because he traveled to Vietnam back and forth, General Kerwin, a wonderful, wonderful soldier. And when I reported in he told me that I was going to be the head of the department that he supervised for the Modern Volunteer Army. My job would be to coordinate all of the programs that were going on both at posts, camps, and stations around the country and around the world, and also within the Pentagon, to evaluate where we ought to be going. Well, OK. It wasn't my first choice. I had about, oh, 10 lieutenant colonels working for me in a very small office that didn't have any windows, and there was a lieutenant general working in the chief of staff's office whose title was the chief of modern volunteer army. So I was torn between two very senior officers who didn't agree with each other very often, and the job went on, and back and forth, and up and down, but a lot of answering letters from the Congress and this kind of thing, and then evaluating things that came from the field. Well, one day I was up in the next level in the Pentagon, because I'd been called by that lieutenant general, and he started chewing me out just something awful for reasons I couldn't explain. Finally he said, "I'm going down and see General Kerwin." My boss. What the hell's this about? So I was standing alone in his office. He went out a side door, and I said, "I've got to get to General Kerwin quick." So I picked up -- they have red phones that go between the very senior officers. I picked it up and dialed General Kerwin's office, and he has to answer that, no matter what's going on. And I said, "Sir, we got trouble," and told him what was going on. I saw him later in the day. He said, "Thanks. That really made a difference." From that moment on, he treated me like I was one of his best friends and had faith in what I was doing. Now, they did bring back in a major general who had just stopped commanding the 82nd Airborne Division, and he came in, and he was my immediate supervisor. But General Kerwin made a proposal -- not a proposal -- instructions to everybody about that time that said "Everybody that works for me in the deputy chief of staff personnel office is going to spend four years in this job." I could see my chances of getting a second shot at a brigade just going out the window. Carol and I had bought a house in Washington, the first home we ever owned. In France it was a rental, and everything else was army quarters. So this was special. She loved that house. She took a job in Washington, DC, in the personnel department, and then she had done a lot of that before, and that was sort of a big part of what she had done at Radcliffe after Smith, and she loved that job. In fact, everywhere we went she tried to find a job that would keep her busy and active. 32 So there we were, balancing back and forth. Now what do I do? Well, I'll go back to my old trick and call the people in my branch on the phone, and I called this young man early one morning before anybody else was in the office, and he happened to be there. I told him my plight, that I'd been really cheated in that one month I'd had in the thing, and General Davidson had said I was coming to Europe with him to command a brigade, and that didn't work out once he found out I'd never been in the Pentagon. "So I want a command, and I want to lay it out right now. I want you to start working on it." He said, "Sir, I'm not sure I can do that." I said, "Well, what time do you come to work?" He said, "Well, I'm in here by 8:00 every morning." I said, "Get in at 7:30 on Monday, because I'm going to call you every goddamn Monday I'm sitting at this desk," and I did. Eventually he said, "I've made an appointment with you with my boss, Colonel [Touche?], who oversees all the branches for colonels." I walked over, and it was my old friend from Fort Knox who had been the senior aide when I was the junior aide to General Collier. He had talked it over with the committee that makes these kinds of decisions, and they were going to put my name in nomination to go back onto the brigade commanders list. Great. A few weeks later I get a phone call that says "We put your name before the committee, and you are on the list, and you're number two." Uh-oh. I'm supposed to spend four years working for General Kerwin? (laughs) So a little later they call back and said, "Whoa. Wait. In the 2nd Armored Division the brigade commander has moved up to be chief of staff, and that brigade is open." I said, "OK. Now you guys call General Kerwin and tell him that you're pulling me out." They said, "Like hell we will." (laughter) So I went to see General Kerwin, and he sort of grimaced and (inaudible) [02:32:24]. He said, "You know my policy." I said, "Yes, I do, sir, but this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for me." And he said, "I'll tell you tomorrow." So the next day he called me, and he said, "Against my better judgment I'm going to let you go to that command. But let me tell you this. The day that's over you're coming back to work for me." I said, "Yes, sir. Thank you." I ran home. (laughs) A little later, in time, the moving truck was in front of the house. I'd gone home, checked out of the office, done everything appropriately, and gone back, and there was a phone call waiting for me at home. General Kerwin. He went on to say what he really wanted me to do, wouldn't I know, is that -- "Sir, we've made our deal," and he says, "OK, but remember, I'm going to get you when you get (inaudible) [02:33:21]." And that was very pleasing to me. I loved the idea of working for him. But, again, it was a matter of just working your way through the system. It was terribly important to my career and to me. People were telling me that "You don't have to do this" kind of thing. You know, "You've done all those kinds of things." But no, that wasn't the career I wanted. So I went to the 2nd Armored Division and took over the 3rd Brigade of the 2nd Armored Division at Fort Hood, Texas, and that was a real fun thing. I really enjoyed it. I had a lot of good people working for me. Some of them went on to become general officers later on. The first thing that happened was they told me that the brigade in one month is going to move to Germany on Operation [Forger?]. Does that mean anything to you? Well, in the Cold War we had built all kinds of home hutches and places to store tanks and materials that take a lot of time to get into the theater. If they said, "OK, the balloon went up. Come over here," you wouldn't have had any -- you'd have to wait for your 33 tanks for a month. So they had all those vehicles and stuff over there, and every year we went over and exercised the idea of flying over -- not me, the army did. It was my brigade's turn, and it was just great. I had planned that thing for every possible contingency, in my mind, and we laid it out with the staff. I said, "Now if this happens, or that happens, or this happens, this is what we'll do. Plan A, B, C, and D." And damn, I figured everything except it was going to snow at Fort Hood, and the air force wouldn't show up. (laughter) So we were about two days late getting there, and it slowed things up. But we went out on maneuvers for about a month and a half, and that was a great experience. I'd done it as a company commander when I was stationed in Europe, but as a brigade -- when I went over I've been detached from the 2nd Armored Division of the United States and attached to the 1st Infantry Division, when I got over to Europe. There for the first time I met a fellow named (laughs) -- I met someone, a senior officer, a brigadier general who, because my brigade wasn't part of his division, I had to go through the ropes of him looking over my shoulder for the first three weeks of what we were doing. It wasn't easy. Eventually he and I had a good reputation among each other, and then we're good. It worked out pretty well. Well, his name is Fuller, Fred Fuller. Just to move that part of the story a little further forward, when I went to Forces Command he was the DESOPS, and I was the assistant -- correction, he was the DESPER, personnel, and I was the assistant DESOPS. And again, good friends, you know. No, sir. I had to prove myself all over again to him. That was tough. That was tough. Then when I became division commander at Fort Hood, would you believe they made him the corps commander, and my boss again? And again, I went through the process. I called it rook training, he wanted to test me on everything that was going on, and then eventually he agreed, and we got along. That was a very difficult relationship I had with that individual. So we came back from Germany after the Reforger, and it was time to change division commanders. A general officer that I had met once or twice but didn't know came in as the two-star commanding the (inaudible) [02:38:26]. This was a fight for my life. He, in my opinion, didn't represent a good soldier. He would drive in his jeep with the two stars on the front, down the street, and the men in the division would say, "Hi, General," and he'd wave back, "Hi." No saluting, none of this. He would come around in my battalion and ask the company commander and the battalion commander to see their operational reports, and particularly the readiness reports, whether or not this tank would go or that one. He required them, not required them, but pushed hard for them to like take something off this tank and put it on that tank, and now we've created another tank that this one isn't working, this one if you take the parts and put it on this one, that's one less tank, but will look that much better. It was everything how you looked. Eventually he was promoted to lieutenant general and shipped to Europe, and his chief of staff caught on to his way of life, reported it. He got thrown out of the army, reduced to major general, and was retired. But that was a tough fight, that was a tough fight. In town now there's a major general, retired, John Greenway. Maybe you've met Phyllis. JC: I have. RT: Well, John Greenway was my chief of staff in the brigade, and I don't know how many times he saved my life. He'd say, "No, no, no, don't go up there and tell that general off. 34 Don't do it. Stop here." One time I actually said, "The hell with you, John, I'm going up there." I was really mad. Again, he had ordered my people to do something that was not proper. So John called up the division chief of staff, who was a good friend, and said, "Russ is on the way. Stop him." (laughs) So I never got in to see him, and I calmed down, and the chief of staff discussed it with me in a way. But it was a difficult, difficult system to live with, but I had wonderful people working for me. JC: Well, that's good. RT: Yeah. JC: What year is this? RT: Oh, my God. (inaudible) [02:41:04] I can't remember my birthday. (laughter) It was about '60 something, yeah. I came back to the United States, and I was assigned to forces command, where General Kerwin was, the man that said, "You're going to go work for me," and I went to work for General Kerwin just as I'd been promoted by the system to be brigadier general. I worked for him for two years and then another year with General Rogers, who went on to be the chief of staff of the army, and it was great. Real professionals who understood various ways of handling people beautifully. I must admit, he had a chief of staff who wasn't quite up to speed in my opinion, and as a result I found myself bypassing the chief of staff, which really isn't a very good idea. But both General Kerwin and General Rogers, when I was there, would call me on the phone directly and ask me to do something. As the junior brigadier general at Fort McPherson, Georgia, they immediately appointed me to be club officer, and to be the president of the Association of the United States Army chapter at Fort McPherson. I was really the junior guy in that headquarters as far as a general officer is concerned. The biggest thing that happened to me really there was that that's when we had the baby lift out of Vietnam, and then we had the evacuation of Vietnam. In the operations business at forces command, we had the responsibility of preparing those units in the United States, wherever they might be involved, to prepare them for the influx of people. I was up a lot of nights and really mad at the air force sometimes. They would bring in planes early, before we could finish taking people off the previous planes and get them, kind of thing. They finally came around. But it was a real wonderful experience as far as I'm concerned. I had the thrill of getting a thank you letter from the president and being called in by the State Department, who had the responsibility of taking these people once they arrived in the United States -- when they arrived in the United States the army was responsible for them. We took old barracks and tried to fix them up to be for families and all the rest of it. And the next step was to put them out into the population in America, and that was done by the State Department. At the end of this, the State Department gave me an award and invited me over to Foggy Bottom, and it was carried out in the formal part of that. It's a very ordinary-looking building, but inside, on the top floor, they have collected and put in there all the furnishing and antiques of America. They would go to somebody that had something that the State Department wanted, and they would say "We would like to have it, and we will replicate it exactly, and give you back the replication." They built -- it's a museum, it's a wonderful, wonderful museum of 35 American furniture through time. I was really impressed with it being there. I wasn't that impressed with the State Dept- people in Vietnam. (laughs) It was very interesting. JC: Yes, sir. So this was around 1975, that would be (crosstalk; inaudible) [02:45:47]. RT: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I did one or two year. JC: Where were you from Fort McPherson? RT: From Fort McPherson, when my immediate boss left General Rogers called me in and said, "I want you to be my full-time top guy and deputy chief of staff operations." I said, "No, General, that isn't right." "What are you talking about, it isn't right?" I said, "You want someone that's been a division commander to be in that job. I mean, you're dealing with all those division commanders, and if the guy that's passing the instructions hasn't had the experience of being a division commander, it doesn't come through right." And he said, "All right. All right." About a year later I was on a board in Washington. You're sent in to do a lot of those things. Interestingly enough, on this particular one I was the head of the board for captains being promoted to major, and I got in trouble with General Rogers. The instructions we had were "These are the formulas, etc., that you follow when you're looking at the history of their being in the service. You can add to this other things, if you, as a board, want to do it." The first thing we added to it was that any captain who had served a normal period of time as a captain in the combat arms branches and had not had a company wasn't to be promoted on this occasion to major. Passing up a captain, you pass up the real army and the real understanding of the army, and, oh, boy. It turns out that we eliminated from being promoted five captains at West Point, instructors, and that reverberated around the world. (laughs) General Rogers finally calmed down. Then on another occasion when I was away in Washington he called me on the phone and said, "The major generals promotion list has just come out." I said, "Oh, good. Who's on it?" and they said, "You are." Oh, wow. After I went back he called me in his office and said, "Now, I'm going to send you to Fort Hood to command a division." Previous discussion, you got to have a command. I said, "Oh, my. Where's George going?" And he looked at me with this great strain on his face and said, "George who?" I said, "George Patton, 2nd Armored Division." I had been in the 2nd Armored Division twice. Four men have commanded the 2nd Armored Division, three of them during World War II. I knew that was my place in life. Well, he said, "You're going to the 1st Cav." Of course, when I'd been there as a brigade commander the 1st Cav was the enemy. (laughter) It was a little difficult to change my mindset that I was now the head of the 1st Cavalry Division, but it turned out to be a good assignment, too. We were immediately assigned a mission of working on something that was called Division '86, and this was the '76-'77 time frame. What we would do is to experiment with different organizational concepts, try them out, and another R&D organization would evaluate whether this was a good idea, or whether it wasn't a good idea. But, man, was that a lot of work. We had soldiers picking up their mattresses and marching over two streets, and then joining another company, because now we were trying -- we were going to have tank platoons with only four tanks rather than five tanks, 36 and these guys had to fill in for the -- you know, back and forth, and up and down. It was a crazy time, but it was very, very rewarding. We lived next door to George Patton and Joanne Patton, and as a matter of fact we had become very close friends over the time we were in the army. We went home on vacations sometimes by accident at the same time, back in New England, and other times purposefully. But we celebrated our twenty-fifth wedding anniversary together, both divisions, at the club, and it was officers. It was really good sport. JC: Was that your last command? RT: No. They sent me to -- at one Fort Hood, after two years of commanding the division, I went down and commanded something called [Tecada?] [02:51:38], which was a research and development experimental station kind of thing. I was doing to the rest of the world what they'd been doing to me, for two years I guess, at which point I was shipped over to Europe to be the deputy chief of staff for operations under General Kroesen. He was one of the most magnificent soldiers I'd ever met. I worked for him once before for a short time, but he was first class. Then I got a call from Loring Hart, president of Norwich University, who I'd gotten to know -- over his 10-year span as president -- pretty well. In my traveling around at various times, I was the head of the Norwich Club of Georgia, the Norwich Club of Fort Hood, the Norwich Club in Europe. They'd come over to visit, and we became close. I had come home on leave to see my dad, who was in bad trouble health wise, and I got a call from Loring Hart to my dad's home down in New Hampshire. He said, "I need you to come up here. I need to talk to you; it's important." And I said, "Gee, I don't know. Dad is not well, I don't know how long he's going to live, and I can't be here very long, so I really and truly want to see as much of him as I can." He said, "Well, afterward, after this weekend" -- it was a big alumni weekend -- "I'll stop in to see you." I said OK. Well, Mother got a hold of me, and Dad got a hold of me and said, "Go on up there." Dad said, "Get a hold of my classmates and tell them I'll be there next year." Well, I knew most of his classmates. When I arrived I found them at lunch in the Armory, and I walked down to the table, the half where they were, and started saying this lie about my father, he's going to be getting well, and he'll see you next year when he comes. All of a sudden the most unusual thing happened. There was this great noise in the Armory, and it kept getting louder and louder and louder. As this individual coming into the room got closer to our table, I discovered that it was General Harmon coming back, and all of these people were saying, "Ernie, Ernie, Ernie, Ernie." I couldn't believe it, you know, really and truly. It showed me just exactly how much he was loved by this institution. That doesn't mean he didn't make a lot of mistakes at times, but he really pulled us out of the woods. So Loring Hart stops in at the house and says, "The board at Norwich University has told me that 10 years is enough, and I'm going to retire. I want you to put your name on the list to be considered." I said, "You're a PhD, you taught English, you became the dean of the university. I don't have any of that." He said, "And you don't need it either, because I'm absolutely certain they're going to choose a soldier." I said, "What do you know, I'm qualified." I went back to Europe, told my boss, and then came back. I made a couple of trips back and forth. I told my boss, which was General Kroesen, what was 37 going on, and then went to see the chief of staff of the army to tell him that I was putting in my papers. You know, after you've been division commander you owe the army something, because of the experience they've given you. So I went to see General "Shy" Meyer, who I'd known in Vietnam, and I was a little dubious here. What will he say? So I told him, and he jumped up from behind his chair, rushed around to my side of his desk, shook my hand, and said, "Boy, that's just exactly what I want to do when I get out." (laughter) Then, unfortunately, and this doesn't have to be spread around, he told me that my name had been submitted to be promoted to Lieutenant General, and it is now before the Congress. Had I not put this in and had I been selected, I was going to go to one of two different jobs, and neither one of them sounded as much fun to me as coming home. Not that I could change my mind. Once you've told the army you're retiring, you're retiring. You don't change your mind. So that's how I got here. JC: What were the other two choices? RT: To be the chief of staff of USEUCOM, which was for the European theater of all of the activities there, and the other one was on the joint staff, doing the DES-OPS kind of work, which is called the J5. JC: So you come to Norwich. Talk a little bit about the application process, because I know Phil Marsilius says in his oral history that they gave you an eight-point plan that they wanted implemented. RT: Yeah. Very unusual I thought, and very useful. Before I get to that (laughs), Carol and I came. We went to New York City and joined a committee of the board who were involved in the selection process. The plane was late, the taxis weren't running, and we were late getting to this thing. Carol was a little nervous that that showed that maybe we weren't working hard enough to get there. They said to me, "We've just finished lunch. Do you want something to eat?" and I said, "Oh, yeah. How about a bowl of onion soup?" Carol said to me afterward, "You could have chosen anything but that cheese dangling out of your mouth." (laughter) But, to me, we had a wonderful conversation, and quite frankly I left in the cab going back to the airport with a member of the board who sat there and congratulated us, because they were certain that the board was now going to select us. Yeah, interesting. Where were we in our discussion? JC: The eight-point plan. RT: Yeah. I can't tell you what the eight-points are right now, but they were all reasonable, one of which was to make Vermont College work, the system of the two institutions together, and that's interesting, too. On that point I tried very hard -- they put a lot of pressure on Loring to go up to Vermont College at least twice a week. He'd go home, changed out of his uniform into civilian clothes, go up to Vermont College, and I don't know what he did, presumably he did good things, and came back again. I got into that routine with him, and I found that Vermont College was in deep trouble, I mean, in my opinion. Over time Vermont College had reduced the quality of their education in order 38 to sustain the number of students they needed, and they had all kinds of programs going that didn't make a lot of sense. They had a nursing program that was excellent. Excellent. They had just bought some programs from -- oh, what's the name of it? JC: Goddard? RT: Goddard College, and they were difficult to mesh into the family. For example, I hadn't been here very long, and I got a call from Mrs. Lippincott, who was the chief officer of Vermont College and had previously been Loring's assistant. I got a call that said, "There's going to be a graduation on Friday" -- this was about Wednesday -- "and it's going to be outside at Vermont College. It's going to be one of the Goddard programs that's graduating at this time. They would like to invite you to be part of their graduation." So I said, "Fine, I'll be there." But before I went I hadn't heard anything more, so I called up to find out, and I said, "Now, what's my role in this? Do I hand out the diplomas? Do I make a speech, do I congratulate them from the platform? What do I do?" They said, "Oh, no, they just want you to sit there and be present. They do all this themselves." OK. I can live with that, and we'll see what happens. The first student to graduate came up, gave a little speech, each one of them, and then took their diploma and put it from their left hand to their right hand, and went back to their chair. The institution wasn't involved. This happened seven or eight times before I really said this is something we've got to look at. Then they decided, or they didn't then decide, the next thing was to have a musical rendition. They had a fellow with a fife and a piano player, and they pushed the piano out toward the group, and the front leg broke off pushing it through the grass. They somehow got it jacked up and started, and the flute player -- well, it was awful, just awful. The next day I said to my vice president, Jim Galloway, major general, retired, I told Jim what had happened, and he said, "You know, you weren't the first. I was the first. The same sort of thing went on, but it was crazier when I was up there." I said, "Tell me." He said, "The flute player was in a tree." (laughter) So we spent some time trying to bring it into the focus. Quite frankly they had some fine professors. They just didn't have a system involved. JC: I've always heard Goddard is a little strange. RT: Well, put it this way. One time Carol and I invited the president of -- oh, in Burlington. JC: UVM? RT: N