Antonioni, George 1-1 Transcription
In: CIC Antonioni, George 1-1 - Final.pdf
Part one of an interview with George Antonioni. Topics include: Family history. How his mother started in the restaurant business and opened the Lazy A and then the Il Camino. What it was like making pizza and working in the Lazy A. How his parents came to the U.S. from Italy. His parents settled in Leominster. Italian clubs in the Fitchburg-Leominster area. George's childhood memories of food, reading, and travel. Speaking English at home. His mother's work history. Working in the family restaurant business. George's education and work as a principal and teacher in the Leominster school system. How he knew Norma, his wife. ; 1 WENDY: This is Wendy Rhodes online with the Center for Italian Culture at Fitchburg State College. It's Monday, September 24th, 10:20 AM, and we're here at the home of… GEORGE: George Antonioni, 24 Dillon Street, Leominster, Massachusetts. WENDY: Okay, and with us is… ANNE: Anne Masifero. WENDY: And… NORMA: With Norma. WENDY: Okay. So George, thank you for agreeing to do this, first of all, and maybe we should start with the restaurant business. Can you tell me about your parents? GEORGE: Yes. My parents came over as children; in fact, they came over the same year, 1916. My mother was 10 years old and my father was 12. And they grew up… my father at first was in Oakdale living with his uncle on a farm, and upon reaching 16, he moved back to the Leominster-Fitchburg area. My mother lived down on the Railroad Street with her parents until she, uh, married my father at which time they moved to Leominster because they both worked at DuPont. And over the years, my mother always had a yen to cook. WENDY: Could you just tell us your mother's name? Including… GEORGE: Ilda, Ilda Cattel. And, um, in fact they lived in Fitchburg. And as we grew up, my parents, of course, were not able to go to school too long. My mother stopped school at the age of 13, and my father at about 14 or 15. But my mother was tri-lingual; she could speak French, Italian, English and wrote as well as any high school student. And my father was a well-educated man for he always read, and they insisted on us studying at all times. We were at times a semi-Italian family and other times an American family. We did not speak Italian at home. But during the war, my mother finally convinced my father that perhaps she could have a restaurant.2 WENDY: And which for? Which restaurant? GEORGE: This was the Lazy A Restau-, at World War II. And upon coming home, my mother was cooking in the house and sending products out. She was making a lot of pizza and éclairs. And then, in 1948 they started The Lazy A Restaurant. It's not an Italian name, but that was the lazy Antonioni's. WENDY: [Unintelligible - 00:02:57] GEORGE: You could not be lazy there. WENDY: So where does the term "lazy" come from? GEORGE: My brother, I believe, thought of the name The Lazy A. And so we carried that restaurant for 10 years, I believe; and it probably was the third Italian restaurant that the city had had because Monti's was, I believe, the first and still in existence, and that was started way in the '30s. And then for a brief period there was another Italian restaurant, Concheto's. You probably remember that. That was very highly successful but did not stay in business for too long. And then The Lazy A came in. And The Lazy A is now called The Gondola and it's still in business. And then… WENDY: Where is The Lazy A? GEORGE: On Lancaster Street. WENDY: Now, is this close to where you lived? GEORGE: Yes, we lived on Longwood Avenue, so the house was on Longwood Avenue and the restaurant was on Lancaster Street. [We're home from three blocks] straight through, so there's no problem about having to travel; and I had married and my wife came to Leominster to live, and we stayed with my folks because I was still in college, and we're all working in the restaurant. And then we get out of the business, and my mother got anxious again and wanted to go back in business again, and so they started the Il Camino Restaurant, which is down on Central Street. And that too was a highly successful restaurant; but at this time they start and 3 get up in age, you know. My brother was not interested in taking it over; he was a lawyer and I had just been promoted to junior high school principalship, so I wasn't interested in taking the business over. Only my wife was, and we didn't do it. So it's a strange thing. We sold the Lazy A to Mary and Gus Lelli; and Gus is a partner in the business, and his wife is an Angelini. And then when we sold the Il Camino, that's Lelli's wife's sister is an Angelini also. Well, married and this [Chikielini], and her daughter bought the restaurant; so we actually sold it both times to Angelinis, but the Daigneault's on it 'cause the husband is a survivor. WENDY: Okay. The Angelini… GEORGE: Still a lot of Angelinis. WENDY: I haven't interviewed anyone yet by that name. But getting back to the restaurant business, can you explain a little bit more about your mother? You said that she started making éclairs and pizza? GEORGE: Yes. WENDY: So what does that mean? She made it for whom? GEORGE: Well, we lived at -- the Lancaster Street lots faced DuPont, and my mother was known as a very good cook. And she used to make pizza, and so they would order it from her. So when they left on Fridays especially, she would have a large number of pizzas and have it delivered at DuPont. And éclairs. Because of those, they didn't eat meat on Friday evening. So pizza was a big item. So we take over 30, 40, 50 pizzas; and so my father knew that the business would succeed. But just in case the business did not succeed, the original building was such that you could convert it easily into a four-room house. So the financial risk wasn't as great as it probably would have been if you built it as a restaurant per se. WENDY: Who made all of the bread dough or the pizza dough?4 GEORGE: We made it. What we would do on a Friday, my mother would be the cook and take care of all the restaurant part. My father and my brother would be making the pizzas, that is, putting the ingredients on; and we had another person who'd be rolling the dough. We didn't flip it like they do now; we bought a pie-making machine, okay, down in Boston, and my mother had bought some dough down there and she worked it around and they could get a nice round pizza right there, so. I think they bought it from Johnson and Johnson, and I think after that Johnson and Johnson's [unintelligible - 00:07:51] the pie-making machine is a pizza machine also, because it's… WENDY: Can you explain the workings of it? GEORGE: Well, I guess if you… all it was a set of rollers, and you would feed the dough through the roller and it'd shape it as you push the tube. And you get any size you want depending on how big the pizza dough you put through. And then you put it in the pan and you put all of them aside and let them raise. Because on those days, raised pizza dough was the rage. It wasn't like today where you have all the thin pizza crust. It was still thick dough on those days. WENDY: Now, is that called Sicilian? GEORGE: Now they call it Sicilian pizza, but everybody who made pizza in the old days was more of a half-inch thick. WENDY: And what kind of toppings? GEORGE: On the toppings, my brother and my father would put tomato, a little bit of oregano, grated cheese -- the mozzarella hadn't really come in yet because mozzarella's a later thing. But those days it was grated cheese, and we put on anchovies. Friday was popular. At the end of the week, you put peppers, onions and hamburg. We use to call that The Summer Special. And while they did all that work, I had the easy job; all I did was answer the telephone, wrap 5 it in, give the pizzas to the customers. For two hours that's all I did. WENDY: That's all you do? GEORGE: That's how big a business it was. WENDY: We can stop and take a break. GEORGE: Excuse me? WENDY: Would you like to stop? GEORGE: Yeah, I get a… WENDY: Okay. GEORGE: We had a very big business, very big business. And of course, Norma was out, blown all the way to sink. As I said, Norma would be there also and she'll be a waitress and take care of the dining room; and then when the other girls came in, Norma's day was not done. Now she became my mother's assistant and go on with cooking also. WENDY: So you must have liked it. NORMA: I did like it. WENDY: Sounds like a lot NORMA: [Unintelligible - 00:10:08] WENDY: You don't mind doing it. NORMA: I don't mind doing it. GEORGE: When I married Norma, she didn't know how to cook. WENDY: I guess that helps [laughter]. GEORGE: Norma was working… well, in the economy [unintelligible - 00:10:25] things like that. Actually she was down at the MIT Lincoln Lab a while also. So she had been around, but she didn't cook, assisted with the cooking at home. NORMA: I was the cleaner. WENDY: You were the cleaner? I could see why you'd want to learn how to cook then.6 GEORGE: But now she's an excellent cook. My brother said she's the best in the family on cooking. From a beginner to the top. And that's pretty how much we did it. WENDY: Let me clarify something. You said that your mother began with the pizzas and the éclairs because she was primarily catering to the DuPont crowd and you would bring them. Now, was the restaurant open? GEORGE: No, not at that time. And just before we opened, actually, she was delivering pizzas on Friday noontime to Foster [Grant], which was a big company in town on those days, and -- I still have one of the big pants that we used to use. And we'd take those up there and they would sell them in their lunchroom, because they had a lunchroom. It was such a big place and they'd buy four to six sheets of pizza every Friday. WENDY: And then they would reheat them, or…? GEORGE: Well, they come up hot and we'd give them right up there to them. And I don't think they had to reheat them, but they would sell them. And it's quite a thing. She had a going business before she was even opening the door. WENDY: Yeah, when did she begin making the pizzas to deliver on that Friday? GEORGE: The delivering of the pizzas started during the war after I had gone into the service. So by 1945 I'd say she started doing it regularly. WENDY: But as she began making the pizzas, you said that she would deliver them on Fridays but it must have been a process all week? Can you… GEORGE: No, no. WENDY: No? GEORGE: No, to make the pizza, you can make the dough couple hours ahead of time to get it raised, and then we'll start cooking them. Doesn't7 take long. Pizza's a quick item, actually, and it cooks in 15 minutes at the most. WENDY: So there wasn't a lot of preparation? NORMA: She got up early in the morning. GEORGE: On that day, yeah. WENDY: Preparing time. GEORGE: Because she did éclairs also, she'd make huge trays of éclairs. She used to make them with a custard filling, and people liked them. She'd been making those before. My mother was an excellent baker. She was very good at baking, and people knew it and they would call up and ask her to make éclairs. She wasn't a cookie person, you know. People think of Italians as cookie persons, but my mother was more cakes and éclairs, cream puffs. WENDY: Did she bring any of those recipes from the old country? GEORGE: No, I don't believe so, 'cause she came over as a -- as I say she was nine, ten years old depending on what part of the year she came over 'cause she was born on 1906 and she came over in 1916, so. WENDY: But her mother -- did she travel with her mother to this country? GEORGE: She came over with her mother. In fact, [pure witness of the game], she came over on the same trip. We have a picture of them in my daughter's house. My daughter's great aunt [unintelligible - 00:14:01] old family pictures, and she's got one on the wall there, my grandmother coming over with the girls. [Unintelligible - 00:14:10] four with my Ma on that picture? NORMA: Four of them at that time. GEORGE: See? That had to be quite a trip. Mother coming with four daughters. WENDY: Did you hear anything about the trip? GEORGE: My mother used to talk about it, yeah. They had a lot of trouble on that ship coming over. I think there was a murder. The ship had 8 been used when they came over to transport some beef, and all these people going back spat up and get rowdy and they had trouble amongst themselves, and there were submarines. It was not a pleasure cruise. So it was… I imagine it was a howling experience. WENDY: So she traveled here with her and mother and her sisters. GEORGE: Yeah, came directly to Fitchburg. WENDY: Did anyone else travel with them? GEORGE: Not to my knowledge. They came as a family unit, and that was it. WENDY: But you have an uncle or a brother. GEORGE: Well, my grandfather was already over here, and she had been over here before. WENDY: Your grandmother? GEORGE: Yeah. She had been over here before. My mother had never been here before. My grandmother had been here to visit my grandfather obviously; and same thing with my father, he came over with his father, though, and then his mother was supposed to come over with the sisters. So one of the sisters was [unintelligible - 00:15:47] and they had to wait 'til she got married, you know, before they could come over. And in the meantime, my grandfather on my father's side went back, but he left my father here with his brother down in Oakdale. And my father never saw his father again, actually, 'cause he didn't go back. WENDY: Okay. GEORGE: He was working on the railroad, the reservoir, one or the other. Because right there in Oakdale, we have a big sand area that they were using, and my uncle's farm was probably half a mile away to the woods, which I've traveled many times. So it wasn't too far to go to work, and he's kept working there, and then he'd go back to Italy. All these men in the old days used to leave home and go to 9 work, make some money and go back the other way. So they have made many trips. In fact, they have a watch. It's in the bank vault right now, but it was my grandfather's watch and it's 1885. So he had made trips over here previous of that trip. WENDY: Your grandfather was here and your father was here. GEORGE: Yeah, they stayed on the farm. WENDY: Okay, and how old was your father when he made the trip? GEORGE: He would be 12. WENDY: About 12. What part of Italy did they come from, your father? GEORGE: My father came from what you'd call Central Italy on the Adriatic side, and it is what they call them the Marque. And [unintelligible - 00:17:38] is the big city where he came from; they lived around the city. Then my mother came from up in Revine. That's not the one everybody thinks of. They always think of Ravena along Maine, this is only Revine, it's R-E-V-I-N-E, and it's way, way up in the mountains. The closest town you'd recognize would probably be Cortina. It was a mile away, up in the Dolomites. I was there, so. WENDY: Oh. GEORGE: I was there this past November. I've been there twice, actually. It's really out there, it's really out there. Oh yeah, one of the cousins. They're at Pieve di Cadore. We visit those places twice. I've been to my father's area once. We stayed there four days when I went to visit my uncles, you know. We took the children over one time to see the whole place. WENDY: When you say they're out there, what did you mean by that? GEORGE: You mean…? WENDY: You said the village with your uncle. GEORGE: Oh, it's really out there, way out in the boonies. It's really interesting. In fact, the village is practically dying, but now we went back this last time, this restaurant is building a huge 10 conference [sauna there]. So that might revive town. I think there was 60 to… like 60 children on the school system, so that tells you how the town was going down, down, down. But as I say, there's a hotel-restaurant that's building a -- 100 or 500 units they wanna build there. It's gonna be big. And you wonder how anybody's gonna get there, but they're gonna get there, you know. NORMA: I forgot to tell you that his mother lived in a castle. GEORGE: [Laughter] NORMA: They called it a castle, and it looks like a castle. GEORGE: But it's not really a castle, you know… NORMA: They called it's a castle, though. GEORGE: Yeah. That had to had been either some nobleman's home or a religious site at one time, but you still got the [slots] where they used to pick the gums on the arrow, so you know, it's interesting. WENDY: And they lived there just their family? GEORGE: That time it was just their family, yeah. But now, I think it's just their family again. But they have a system over in Italy that they sold parts of the houses. So… you own this section and you own that section and I own this section, but they bought the whole thing back now, so they own the whole thing. But [unintelligible - 00:20:24] of Pieve di Cadore, we three families that own parts of that house, it's almost like each one had own tenement; and we're not talking condos. These are old houses, and that's the way it was. WENDY: Do they all have a private bathroom? GEORGE: They have private bathrooms, but then there's a general bathroom on one floor that you can use. They're well-constructed houses, nice houses, and it's a nice area [unintelligible - 00:21:15] 'cause the air is clear as a bell, and… the scenery is magnificent. WENDY: Are there any tales about Ma leaving the village and going to the port city to come here?11 GEORGE: No, no. My mother didn't say too much about that. But once again, her family had been in the United States, aunts and uncles, what have you. They have been coming here since the 1800s at the Civil War. In fact, one part of the family had an open-air kitchen; they used to sell down in Pennsylvania down in the coal mine areas. But if you're familiar with the United States' history, the coalminers' staff had a lot of trouble unionizing and all that stuff, and things got very, very… bad. And fighting and things were going on, so they came back home. And they also had a catering business up in Pieve di Cadore. So they were hardworking people; they've been all over. My grandfather had been all over Europe and [unintelligible - 00:22:33] in Turkey as well as United States before he decided to settle here. WENDY: And why is it that they decided to… GEORGE: Well, it's like everybody else. They're looking for a good life and avoid turmoil. In Europe, there was always turmoil, or had always been, always building fortifications and things like that type of war, so they come over here. WENDY: And then specifically took the [unintelligible - 00:23:00]? GEORGE: Well, someone went to Fitchburg, maybe to work up in the quarry, because the Venetians, which my mother is, they're [unintelligible - 00:23:14] way up on top of the hill over towards the quarry. And that's where they lived, most of them. My grandfather lived down in the, what we call the patch area, but most of the Venetians didn't live there; they lived way up to what we call [unintelligible - 00:23:33]. And I don't know how many families there were about, but there weren't too many Venetians. They had their own club and everything; they tended to segregate just like all the Italians in -- you came from one section of Italy, you went to that club, you didn't go to any other clubs. Like in Leominster, there were six or seven Italian clubs. Can you imagine that? They 12 work, and all of those, I would say, work within a half-mile radius, seven clubs, six or seven clubs. WENDY: The club brings up an interesting question. Do people consider themselves Italian or do they consider themselves part of a particular region? GEORGE: I think when they talk amongst themselves, they were Veneziano, [unintelligible - 00:24:31], Sicilian or whatever. Of course the Sicilians tend to think of themselves as separate anyway. If you've ever been to Sicily, they don't call themselves Italians; they're Sicilians. But on Lancaster Street itself, there were one, two, three, four, five clubs within a quarter mile. We go from [unintelligible - 00:24:56], there were five clubs. And there was one on the back of [unintelligible - 00:25:01], I was a Saladini and then you had Colombo Hall on the [unintelligible - 00:25:06]. Can you imagine? What other nationality would do that? WENDY: Right. GEORGE: They did it, and Fitchburg -- or at least three, I think. That doesn't help you any, you know. In those days when you want them to do something, you need political power. You still do, and they were fragmented, you know. WENDY: Is there any attempt to unify? GEORGE: There was the Sons of Italy, but the Sons of Italy was never strong up in this area. In fact, even to this day it's basically a social club, I think, if anything. I think it exists, but that's what it is. They don't get that involved in politics, to my knowledge. But I don't know. WENDY: Why don't we talk about the particular club that your parents had joined? GEORGE: My father, even though we lived in Leominster, did not join one of the clubs in Leominster because he'd grown up in, you know, from 16 on or 17, he had lived in Fitchburg; so all his friends were up 13 there and he was one of the incorporators of the Marconi Club, [unintelligible - 00:26:23] founder of the club. And so he never left that club. And in fact I joined it for a while, but there was no call for me to go up to Fitchburg if I want to join the club, so I stayed there for two years. But I remember that club, they started up in, you know, room in a three-decker, and they move around, I guess to find the cheapest rent, and they finally decided to build the club that they had still in existence. They were hardworking people. I remember them working in the wintertime building that thing. And imagine, you'd get some man outside, [unintelligible - 00:27:09] out there, banging away on its soles and soils, trying to get the trench in so they could get the water. And [unintelligible - 00:27:19] was doing some of the brick masonry, and you know, lock in all that [unintelligible - 00:27:24] working away, donating their services for their club. WENDY: Why do you think they found it important to join? GEORGE: I think everybody has to belong to something, and that was their -- they're with a feeling they belong and they felt safe with these people. They grew up with them; a lot of them were childhood friends from the old country. It's like talking… well, if you went to the California and suddenly there's 10 Leominster people there, families, they'll just have to stick together. Especially in those days when language was a problem. WENDY: Do different regions of Italians have trouble talking to each other? GEORGE: It can happen. The language picks up certain sounds. For example, in the [uplands] who probably pick up a little of the French accent; and if you live up where my mother comes from, sometimes the words sound almost Germanic. I still maintain that when I sit there and listen to some of these people talk from that region, "strada" was almost like "strasa" at times, you know. And then if you go down to Sicily, I think the two regions are so far 14 apart that language is a part of the problem. They all had their own idiosyncrasies and what have you. See, in the United States, it isn't quite as bad, you know. We all understand each other. Some of those have their pronunciation, but it isn't that much different than the [unintelligible - 00:29:15], you know. WENDY: On Americanization classes, I realize that both of your parents came here at a young age, so they maybe learned in a public school. What about your grandparents? GEORGE: My grandparents, I'm not sure what they did. I think in those days, you could -- if my grandfather, which he must have done, gone to classes, I think you could get your whole family in under your citizenship. You didn't have to go yourself. The wife and children, I think, automatically could become citizens when you did. So, I'm sure when he was back in Italy, he'd be going to night school, because he was another person who loves to read. I still remember my grandfather reading all the time. He's like my father. The two men in my life were men who liked to read with an educating process on. My father still read the Italian newspaper almost 'til the day he died; and the only reason why he read it was so he wouldn't lose his language because there was no one to speak to anymore in Italian, a very few people. So he kept getting the Italian newspaper. WENDY: Now, is that something that the club perpetuated, with the Italian language? GEORGE: No, no. When I became a member of the club which was after the War of Ceylon, 1947, '48, a lot of the discussions were in English even though they're all old Italians, most of them. They all would speak in English at the meetings. Otherwise, the guys like myself who would be new members and young -- you know what happens to the young guy, he becomes the secretary. They were talking in 15 Italian, it wouldn't come out like so. They pretty well-learned how to speak English. The men did anyway. Some of the women… I won't say their station in life, but what they did, they didn't go anywhere in those days. You know, it's not like today; we all get in the car and take off. The women tended to stay home more. Now, the women do the driving half the time, so. But those days, women didn't go too far. WENDY: What kinds of things do they do at the club? GEORGE: Well, the men, if they went on their own, the Marconi Club was a little different. For a while they even had a [unintelligible - 00:32:06], but that didn't last too long because it's kinda noisy when they're busy playing cards. Most of the men would play a game they call three-seven, and they played for the beverages or candy bars or whatever you wanted. If you won the game, you either could have a glass of beer or candy bar or whatever. But big gambling games, I never witnessed any of them. They might have had some, but most of the men were there just for recreation; they weren't there to make a fortune. And actually, before I went to the service, there were a group of bakers. They would come in on Friday night at 11 o'clock, they're all done working for the weekend, and they started to bring in pizzas; they bring a tray of pizza, and they hand it out. After a while they began to smarten up, you know, but more and more people were coming, and now they bring two trays, three trays, so they start to sell the pizza. But I remember my father waiting for them to come in on a Friday night so we could have a slice of pizza, each of them. We'd take one home to my mother, maybe two slices probably 'cause my brother was old enough, so we have family pizza by the pan they were selling it, you know. And it became a big business up there. I think the Marconi Club kept 16 selling pizza, spaghetti, and cola very recently. It's quite a business. WENDY: Was the club open every day? GEORGE: The club used to open up generally at night because most of the days the men were working. But then later on the club opened up in the afternoon, and I don't know what it's doing now. I hadn't been there in many, many, many years. WENDY: So who would round the club? GEORGE: They would have the board of directors, so to speak; and then they would have a bartender, and then the treasurer acted like the steward. So that's how they ran it. And you had your monthly meetings, and the steward would get up and explain how much money came in, how much money went out, all that, you know. Every month was a big time financial statement. We got news of how little money came in or how much, it was always the important thing. WENDY: Were there dues? GEORGE: Yeah, we used to pay, I think $1 a month, and it was a… we'll get [in club] in that if you get sick, you would pay the sick benefit. It wasn't very much money, I mean, it could probably get $8, $10 a week, which was not big money, but it helped out with the fee, with the salaries were in those days. But if you were very, very careful, you just didn't get it for staying home. You had to be sick; and if you're sick, you get the benefit. 'Cause the sick committee was always checking, so it's quite a thing. You had to see it to believe it, because everybody want to take care of everybody but nobody wanted anybody checking what they were supposed to be doing, you know. So it's good, it was a nice club. Then they used to run some dances. Dances weren't too successful there for some reason, but they ran a few. In fact, and I played for 17 a couple of them with our sisters. Yeah, we talked about all-girl band [laughter]. NORMA: I can't believe I'm hearing those stuff. GEORGE: They were the originals. So that worked out. And one of the strange things was—I don't know if Anne remembers this—we even had Italian prisoners of war up there one time. Were you there? [Laughter] ANNE: [Unintelligible - 00:36:17] GEORGE: [Laughter] World War II. A lot of Italians were taken prisoner, so there are a lot of them down in Boston. And apparently Italian prisoners of war weren't considered dangerous, so on a Saturday night they would take them out or something and -- to different club and organizations. So we have a dance or something, they came up once or twice to my knowledge, and they circulated with the people, and they'll look at and then women talk to them because they see if they knew anybody from where they came from, you know, hope against hope, you know my family or something, you know. But down in Boston, they'd be there out all the time. In fact, some of them married Boston girls after the war. WENDY: Was there any marriage in here? GEORGE: Not to my knowledge, no. But down in Boston, there were. They used to have the fence and the girls would go over them and talk to them. In fact, I was just reading a book about the Italian prisoners of war down in Alabama and how friendly they became with the girls down there. They'd go up to work in the fields and what have you as prisoners of war. So everybody knew them. And I ran into one of them when I was in the army. I was going overseas in California, and the Italian prisoners of war were doing the cooking and I was with the KP to get that one out. When you stand there and you're cleaning out a soup tureen and the Italian isn't, you won the war. We're winning this war. And they used to say they 18 had, you know, an American soldier got this beer garden at the camp; they used to say the Italians and the wine garden—I don't know how true that was but that was one of the stories. That's when I was on camp Enza, guess that was outside of Riverside, California. But a lot of strange things in this world. WENDY: Let's get back to your childhood. You said that you grew up in a home that was half-American, half-Italian? GEORGE: Yeah. On a Wednesday night, you know, they say that's Italian spaghetti night, we might be having corned beef and cabbage. My father since he was alone used to eat in diners a lot, 'cause he lived in boarding houses 'til he get married. So he picked up all these habits of different food, and when he married my mother, my mother said, "What would you like to eat?" And he'd say, "I like those, I like that." So we used to eat a lot of those things, you know. WENDY: Now, how did she learn how to cook corned beef and cabbage? GEORGE: What? WENDY: How did she learn how to cook something like that? GEORGE: My mother was very clever when it came to cooking. She could make almost anything taste great. In fact, I used to go up to my mother's after I was married many, many years. We'd go up and have corned beef. I still like corned beef. So we just have all these -- lot of American food. We were not heavy on ravioli and things of that type 'cause my mother worked in the factory all the time, so those things took time to prepare. You gotta make the ravioli and things like that, you've got to… so we [unintelligible - 00:40:01] things like that, but not all the time. WENDY: But there must have been other differences besides the food. GEORGE: Well, we're only two boys in those days, so we traveled around a lot, and my father had a car, we always had a car. And most of the people stay pretty much in the neighborhood, so we would always 19 be going someplace. Like they had taken me to the World's Fair back in late '30s, things of that type. So we're going places. My father -- I still remember my father taking me to the library when I was -- my first trip to the library. When I took my daughter to the first trip to the library, things hadn't changed in the Leominster Library in those days, so we went there. It reminded me of when I went with my father. And they always let me read, you know. On those days, you weren't supposed to read comic books because they weren't good for you. My father let me read comic books, and that was very good because you picked up vocabulary. You learn a lot of vocabulary and you learn a lot of history. And so he constantly would buy me -- books were never a problem. WENDY: You said you went to the World's Fair. GEORGE: Yeah. WENDY: He drove to New York? GEORGE: We took the bus. WENDY: Okay. GEORGE: We took the bus. Of course that was quite an experience because, you know, the bus stops periodically for a rest stop and something to eat, so my brother and I thought it was the greatest thing ever because every time we stop, we get something to eat, you know, candy bars or something. I always had something. And we got to New York and we stayed at my aunt's. She was a nurse in New York, Mrs. Andriski, and she goes down in Oakdale actually, and she and her girlfriend who came from Fitchburg also were nurses. So they worked nights, so we were there and there was no [intrusion] upon them 'cause they weren't there anyway. And during the day we'd go to the fair. It's quite a thing. WENDY: World Fair in Italian Pavilion? GEORGE: Oh, yeah, we went to the Italian Pavilion. That was a one-week first stops, and then we went to the G Building and we did our 20 rounds. It was quite a thing. [Unintelligible - 00:42:35] obviously to see the Magna Carta, still remember that. And Crown Jewels. So it was interesting. My mother was -- I keep saying my father, but my mother was a real [unintelligible - 00:42:51] on this occasion. She made sure there was a Parent's Day; she made sure my father went because he would be working nights so he could go on the daytime. Those days, you'd want in the daytime for most of these things, so he would go. He'd be the only man on the room unless Mr. Anderson -- he was the only other man that'd be there. Usually all these Italian women are sitting there, listening, and there'd be my father and Mr. Anderson. At nighttime, it was a far from -- she'd be there. She'd always be there. School was important to her; and in fact, more important than my father. My father always believed that you could trade some things like that, and he was like trades can do the same thing for you that college can. But she was always, "You gotta go to school." WENDY: So there was never a question of you or your brother going to college. GEORGE: No. We'll always gonna go to school, that was a given. And make sure we got enough good grades to go [unintelligible - 00:44:07] hear about it when report card came. It worked out good. WENDY: So you never felt any influence to go into the restaurant business? GEORGE: No, no. They never tried to talk me into [unintelligible - 00:44:22] restaurant business. I have, when it comes to cooking and labor, I have two left hands, so it wouldn't work. Right, Norma? It would not work. NORMA: [Unintelligible - 00:44:37]. I couldn't tell. GEORGE: They used to put me out front. You're the maître d'. Get [unintelligible - 00:44:43] kitchen. It's dangerous. WENDY: Did you say that your mother was tri-lingual, or is that your grandmother?21 GEORGE: My mother. She would -- spoke French fluently, and she could speak Croatian French. WENDY: [Unintelligible - 00:45:00] she lived in the [unintelligible - 00:45:03] area? GEORGE: No, she lived down the patch, that's Italian. Italian and Sicilian. But when she worked in the factory as a little girl -- 'cause she was only 13 when she started, she started to pick up all these languages. All of that language -- as you well know; the younger you are on foreign languages, the better off you are. And she's being young like that, she paid attention, and she could talk French. WENDY: Did she ever try to teach you? GEORGE: Teach me French? No. Once I got into the… fourth, fifth grade, I think they decided that they might have made a mistake in not teaching us Italian. So they'd send me off to St. Anthony's for a couple of weeks in the summertime, and my mother got a whole set of Italian grammar books for kids, and she start to teach me some Italian. But by that time, it was too late. I did take Italian in high school, though. It was too late. I understood it and I could read it, but I couldn't speak it. WENDY: In the home, they always spoke English, too? GEORGE: No, they talk Italian when they didn't want us to understand, but they soon discovered that was a mistake, especially with me. They knew I could talk Italian, I could understand it. I wouldn't speak it, but -- in fact, my grandmother was very upset that they weren't teaching us to speak Italian when we were little kids, but I think my father wanted to make sure we were fluent in English, learn what would be our mother tongue, English, you know, and I was -- so that's what you had to do. WENDY: It's interesting that your grandmother felt differently. GEORGE: Yeah, yeah. WENDY: Can you remember any discussions or anything?22 GEORGE: No, I just… I know that she was upset that we didn't speak Italian. My grandfather didn't seem to bother at, all but he always talked English to me anyway so, you know, you'll never -- my grandmother would mix the two languages a lot but my grandfather was -- you'd think he came from America too. WENDY: Although she started working in a factory at 13? GEORGE: Thirteen. WENDY: [Unintelligible - 00:47:27] GEORGE: Had to be in Fitchburg, I don't know which factory. It was supposed to be 14, but she got in at 13. WENDY: She ever talked of those days? GEORGE: Not too much. The only thing she regretted was she had to leave school. She liked school, but… I don't know how many children were there, six or something like that in those days, and I guess times were tough. She was the last one they pulled out of school; she and her oldest sister did not go to school. From then on, my Aunt Toni who was next. She became a registered nurse and Ere, I think, went to business school; Doris didn't go to school beyond high school. Ellen got married, so she didn't go beyond high school; my Uncle became a dentist; and my other Uncle had a high position on industrial business down in Connecticut—he was a Holy Cross graduate. In fact, he and I graduated together… the same class. That was due to the war, yeah. WENDY: What year was that? GEORGE: '49. 1949. WENDY: [Unintelligible - 00:48:53] strongly about your education? GEORGE: I think she felt strongly because her home aren't going to school, my father not going to school. But those days, it was quite common. They didn't go to school. I still remember living on Longwood Avenue and boys becoming 16 or girls becoming 16, 23 that was beyond the school, get a job and they make $12 a week, something like that, if they went to work. WENDY: And you never felt that call to begin making money? GEORGE: No. Actually we were two boys. Most of the families had three, four, five kids, probably be a widow or a widower, you know. We lived well compared to a lot of them. So it never happened, you know. We had always had a small garden, we had chickens, we had some rabbits, and so it was always plenty of food; and my mother was an excellent person on canning. She could can almost anything. You'd talk about buying corn on the cob -- she didn't freeze it; she knew how to can it, corn on the cob. And it wouldn't be a lot of log. Remember that, Norma? She just had a lot of corn left over one time, hated to see it go to waste or fed to the chickens, so she just vacuum-packed it. That was good. She can do the same thing with -- I remember being in the service, I'd get a jar, and then it would be fried rabbit. Oh yeah, I like rabbit, I like rabbit. But she wouldn't waste anything, it was amazing. And she could sew, she make my trousers, shirts, and then my father bought her an ironing machine one time. I don't know if you remember those things, they used to call them a [mangle]. It's a circular item, and she had it, and my father bought an old electric sewing machine, and the man came to look at it and show how to run those sewing machine, they saw that and they [unintelligible - 00:51:23] "What can you do with that?" She says, "They can iron shirts," everything. I see her do something, so she'd get all this things and says, "I'll give you a job on Saturdays to demonstrate these ironing machines at Sears and Roebuck." So for a year or two, that's what she did. Every Saturday afternoon she'd go up there, take all our laundry, and iron it to people. She's a very clever woman, my mother. WENDY: So did she work while you were in school?24 GEORGE: When I came back from the service, she didn't work anymore in the factory, because now I had a sister and then a child after I came back, our second sister. We're two families; we got two younger sisters and my brother and I. I'm 20 years older than my younger sister, almost to the day. She's December what, Norma? Fifth? NORMA: December 2nd. GEORGE: Second, she's the 2nd and I'm 15th. 20 years difference. WENDY: Is she working prior to the… GEORGE: Yeah, she always worked in the factory. My mother always work. My mother couldn't sit still. She had to work all the time. My wife is like her; she can't sit down. WENDY: I'm always in awe of everything these people were able to get done, but they'd still work. It's amazing. GEORGE: She would can all of it. We had canned blueberries, canned raspberries, strawberries, all kinds of tomatoes, jelly. She used to make [unintelligible - 00:53:02] school when they used have what they used to call hospital days, and you would bring canned goods and things like that. And my mother gave me some apple jelly to bring, and the teacher looked at it and looked out to the window, it was clear as a bell. She went down and got another teacher, "Come over here, I wanna show you something." She's still [unintelligible - 00:53:22] she hold it and, "Look at that." WENDY: Without machine? GEORGE: Without machines. Norma could tell you stories about my mother. She knew my mother all her life, so… very clever. Her mother was an excellent cook, and mother was a real cook. WENDY: You wanna talk? You wanna say anything? NORMA: She looked tremendous, she knew everything and she could do anything. Anything you ask her do, she could do it. WENDY: How could she do all these work, working during the day? Was it weekends, or after…?25 GEORGE: When she came home at night. My father would start to prepare some of the things for her, you know, then he'd go to work and she'd come home and… and since he wasn't home, you know, he's at work and then were just two boys, so she'd get working on something, keep busy, and that was it. WENDY: So when you were [unintelligible - 00:54:17] passed away? GEORGE: No, my father died around, what, 86, Norma? NORMA: 80 when he died. GEORGE: He was 80 when he died. So, around 80, about 1984 when he died. Or no? NORMA: No, [unintelligible - 00:54:43]? WENDY: Okay. Maybe I just assumed, but you said there were two families. But I think what you said was you're… GEORGE: Oh, I'm different. WENDY: Okay. GEORGE: There was a girl who died in between, and she always wanted a daughter, so then they had the girl. Then they figured she's growing up alone, so they had a second one. WENDY: She wasn't busy enough? GEORGE: No, no, no. By the time the girls came, my brother and I were fairly grown up. I was 16, so I can help out with the little girl and keep her busy and things. And then when I went to service, my brother was old enough to help out. Like he'd deliver a lot of the stuff. He wasn't in school, so, you know, he was -- it's quite a thing. WENDY: So let's go back to the restaurant business. So after she became successful with these pizzas, can you fill in the blanks? They aren't, for example -- I get the impression that they had always thought they would open up a restaurant when these pizzas became popular.26 GEORGE: Yeah. My mother was really strong, and my father was conservative, you know. He had reached the point that DuPont were, you know, your job is secured for life now and do we really wanna get involved in this when they had two little children. And my mother kept insisting, so they get the building. We bought the land in the back there because my father want the [unintelligible - 00:56:28] to go to work. Those were on empty lots that DuPont owned then. The DuPont was selling all the lots they had, and the buildings. Because in the old days, the factory used to buy up a lot of land and houses, and then the people would then rent them from them. Well after the war—just prior to the war, rather—they started to sell some of the stuff up during the Depression. And there was this one lot sitting there which was directly in back of ours, so my father was able to buy it for a very ridiculously low price in those days, and just cut a hole in our fence and we had an entry to the Lancaster Street. And we put a little garden there, and… since the lot was there and the expense of buying land was no longer a problem, we'd put the building up. And as I say, it was not a huge building. I got a picture of this some place, the original building. So they started, and the business was so successful. It was so successful I think within six months they had to add to the back part of it for kitchen expansion. And then a year or two later, they added to the dining room section; they doubled that up in size. Then later they put an entrance on the side to get down into the basement area. We were there 10 years, that's all. By that time, everybody is getting tired; 'cause in a family business, everybody's gotta work. WENDY: So when did she expand the menu? Was that immediately? GEORGE: Immediately. We had a full menu right away. She didn't do just the pizza. She wanted a restaurant. And so we had all the different 27 types of spaghettis and manicottis and all that stuff. It was an Italian restaurant. WENDY: So you said she really didn't cook ravioli or manicotti at home? GEORGE: No. WENDY: So she determined… GEORGE: But she was an excellent cook. A successful restaurant is one that -- where there is no waste. So if you make something and it's not going to sell, you get two choices: you've got to find a way to use it or throw it away. My mother was so clever. We used to have veal, for example, and there'll be little pieces left over when they churn the cutlets from the bone, just little pieces, and what are you gonna do with it? So it's still on the menu, veal casserole. [Unintelligible - 00:59:24] wine and [unintelligible - 00:59:25], and all of a sudden something that was waste is a big seller. In fact, if I were to go to one of the restaurants now, that's what I would have. WENDY: Historically, I hear of something. I hope that hasn't been happening a lot in time. It's just suddenly, but suddenly [unintelligible - 00:59:47]. Okay. Thank you. So were these all her recipes that she used? GEORGE: Yeah. WENDY: Was she the only cook? GEORGE: She was always the lead cook. She had help, but she still made the determinations of what would go in and what wouldn't. Norma would work with her, and if my mother wasn't there and then Norma would be the lead cook. But it's always family. WENDY: How many [unintelligible - 01:00:21] was it open? GEORGE: Six. We had long hours in those days, not like today where the restaurant opens for six, eight hours. Those days it opened at 12 noon, it closed at 12 midnight. 28 WENDY: Incredible. [Unintelligible - 01:00:39] dad worked at the restaurant? GEORGE: My father would work there during the day, and then he would go to work at 4 o'clock at DuPont, then he gave that up once he got the -- after he got his 25-year pin, he left and stayed just at the restaurant. WENDY: And you said you and your brother also worked there? GEORGE: Yeah, we worked there. My brother was a good cook too. He's the one that can do many things. He takes after my mother on that respect. He can cook and he can do electrical work and do tile work. You name it, he can do it. WENDY: And what is his name? GEORGE: Attilo. WENDY: Attilo. Is he called [unintelligible - 01:01:28] GEORGE: Oh, Tony. WENDY: So can you tell us a little bit about what it was like working in a restaurant? NORMA: It was hectic. I have a little girl with me and she used to stay with me while I waitressed and worked in the kitchen. [Unintelligible - 01:01:43] my daughter, and then when the [unintelligible - 01:01:45] stay with me too and he'd hold on behind me while I was waitressing… with his finger, he used to -- he know how to play [unintelligible - 01:01:54] jukebox. He'd know every song that was there. And he used to dance, and army people used to come in and just watch him. And we really wanted him to be something, but [unintelligible - 01:02:08]. GEORGE: Wow. I didn't want… NORMA: He was good. He's staying and he danced, and he was about three or four years old when he was doing this. GEORGE: Younger than that when he started.29 NORMA: When he started. But somebody signed him somewhere, but I'm not [unintelligible - 01:02:23]. No? GEORGE: No. NORMA: No, he stopped her after that. And he was [unintelligible - 01:02:29]. Soldiers used to come just to see him. GEORGE: Yeah, with them [unintelligible - 01:02:35] big in those days and they -- we had a lot of army trade, and they'd come up and they look to him and give him a quarter, so he'd play five songs and … NORMA: And he knew every song there was, too. WENDY: So how did he learn to sing? [Unintelligible - 01:02:52] GEORGE: Just listening. We'd have a stack of records like that, 'cause we had a jukebox, people would come around and they changed them, and they'd give him a bunch of them, you know. And he'd pick one up and he was four years old and maybe at best pick the record up and say, "What's this one, Georgie?" "It's a concerto." WENDY: Wow. GEORGE: [Unintelligible - 01:03:20] concerto. He couldn't read. It was scary. That's why he could do it though, unbelievable. WENDY: Do you think your mother enjoyed the restaurant? GEORGE: Oh, she loved it. She loved it. She didn't wanna get out of it; but everybody was tired, everybody was tired. We reached a point that you don't wanna do it anymore, so we got out. But then they went back in again, and… WENDY: What year do you think that was? GEORGE: I think it was 1958, about 1958 they got out. Then by '62, something like that, they went back in again. When they get through, they went cross country with my two sisters. I think they went for about six weeks; they made this trip down to Mexico all around the United States and back to Leominster. And again, went back to Italy, you know. They wanna see America first. He liked the United States. He was always… he'd be what you call a 30 patriot. He was in the National Guard; he always loved to talk about his being in the National Guard, you know. He loved the United States. He went back when his sisters became ill, and after that he made several trips to Italy. WENDY: 1958, and they were back into it by '62? GEORGE: '62 or '63, they went back in. WENDY: So what happened? They got some left and… GEORGE: And my mother was ready to again. But they didn't stay that many years after that because [unintelligible - 01:05:10] going to sixties now. And my brother and I were not really that interested in doing it. In fact, I'd worked Friday night and he'd work Saturday night. And all I did was… I was the maître d', so I wasn't doing much of anything. But she wanted us there, my brother and I, and he was on Saturday and I was Friday nights. WENDY: Did you work there too? ANNA: I only worked there about a year and a half. WENDY: With the Il Camino? GEORGE: Yeah. WENDY: Can you tell me about the history of it? For example, did she purchase the restaurant from someone else? GEORGE: No. She wanted to go back in business, and so she had my brother start looking for land; and that's pretty much what he does, a lot of titles—he's a title man. And he found this piece of land that was just sitting there and was surrounded by, I think, the land owned by [Blocks] Incorporated, but there was one watch just sitting there. And so they bought it, and they started off with the original building. And this restaurant was not quite like the Lazy A; it was more of an -- I won't say it's upscale, but it was basically a restaurant, not a pizza combination. Times have changed and the pizza was no longer the big thing for a restaurant, we thought, and so they built this restaurant with the idea of [unintelligible -31 01:06:48]. And it took off right away. In fact, it's about so fast that they had to add a little room in front. They had to -- was it two rooms, Norma? NORMA: Two. GEORGE: Yeah, put two rooms in the front. One was a lounge and the other one was another restaurant, dining area. And then they added in the back so the place, just kept growing; but as I say, as a full restaurant, delay gets even more intense than a… I was not going stay that much more, and my brother as I say, was -- his practice was starting to pick up, so. And the girls were too young. Well, Jeannie was in college and Margaret was at the restaurant, but she had got married, so. WENDY: Mother is still doing most of the cooking at the time? GEORGE: All 'til the last day, 'til the last day. She loved it. Her mother was the same way. When they had their restaurant, I think they were happiest when they were in the kitchens. Wouldn't you say, Norma? NORMA: Oh, yeah. She loved to cook. [Unintelligible - 01:07:59] and my mother did all the cooking. WENDY: That's a good trainer. Was there a push for education for your sisters? GEORGE: Yes. Margaret went to Rivier for one semester. She did not like college, and she came back and went to work with my mother; and she married and had three children. She's a widow now. And my sister Jeanie went to -- up in -- what is it? NORMA: Merrimack. GEORGE: Merrimack, Merrimack College. And she [unintelligible - 01:08:39] she has a good job. She's been there for many, many years. In fact, starting next year she can even retire. When you're 55, you can do that nowadays. And she's the boss; she has no children. But she takes after us, and that she's a reader too. She 32 loves to read, read, read, read. In fact, she just came back from China with my sister Margaret. They both went and Margaret said -- Norma asked her, she's too much talking, so the first two days, she didn't said anything, she just read. [Laughter] WENDY: [Laughter] So tell us a little bit about your schooling. I know you're a graduate of Holy Cross? GEORGE: Yeah. WENDY: Prior to that? GEORGE: I went to Leominster High School and graduated in '44. I started college in July because it was wartime, and I figured I could get some time in before I went to the service. It would also guarantee me a place when I came back. So I finished my freshman year in February of '45, and I was in the army in March of '45. I came back and went back to school, and I've taken some extra courses, somewhere by accident, and so I found out if I went to summer school I wouldn't have to do my second semester junior year, and I graduated in '49 instead of '50. Then I went to [unintelligible - 01:10:24] and I stayed up there for a few months teaching elementary school, but I didn't like it. And so I came back to Leominster in 1952; I was in the Leominster school system. I became a principal of junior high school. I was the first Italian secondary principal. Christine McDowell was the first elementary one; her name was [unintelligible - 01:10:52]. She was the first, I believe, elementary school principal of Italian descent. WENDY: But you were the first secondary? GEORGE: Yeah, and I became the high school principal, and I was the first one there full-time. Dr. [Anthony] did it temporarily while they found a principal. And then I succeeded the man that they had found, [unintelligible - 01:11:20] two and a half came in. And he was not the first curriculum coordinator of Italian decent, Robert 33 Duppal would come to Leominster and worked for a couple of years, but Robert Anthony, Dr. Anthony, he became the first assistant superintendent of curriculum. He was a native son also. And Dr. Amadeo became the first Italian superintendent in Leominster. But after I became junior high school principal, a whole wave of Italian descent children of Leominster became elementary school principals. Salvatalis and Negliosis and Sardeli, Bacani, they all came in after. And then Chino Salvatori became a junior high school principal. There was a whole wave of us, but that's the way of America anyway. If you've studied history, whatever wave comes, through they take those jobs and their children will want different types of jobs. Just like the old story of the Irish cop, they had their wave and they moved on, their children did not become policemen, they took better jobs. And same thing with the Italians, they moved up, [unintelligible - 01:02:46] loaded with doctors and lawyers and everything now are of Italian descent. WENDY: Did you ever considered going anywhere else to teach? GEORGE: I had taught as I say in [unintelligible - 01:12:58] for a short time, but I didn't like elementary. So I came back to Leominster and waited for a slot opened. And as I say, did that until 1988, and when I was 62 and I retired. But I went down at St. Andrews, and I did the five-year short-term—it was supposed to be shot-term, but it was five years before I left as elementary school principal down there. So I taught everything from pre-K to high school. WENDY: And how did you meet Norma? GEORGE: I've known Norma all my life. NORMA: His father and my father lived in a duplex house in Italy. And my mother and his father used to go to school, elementary school in Italy with each other, and we were friends… GEORGE: Yeah. I've known her from day one.34 WENDY: Wow. Did anyone suggest that you get married? NORMA: No. WENDY: No. NORMA: I asked him to go to my high school prom, but he had to go into service so that was the end of that. But while he was in the service he used to write to me, and when he got home, started going together, and that was it. GEORGE: Fifty-three years later. WENDY: Fifty-three [unintelligible - 01:14:20] and 54 in February? GEORGE: Yeah, it'll be 54 years in February. WENDY: I have a friend who's talking to her the other day, and she said that a lot of marriage nowadays is anything over seven years. GEORGE: My daughter was 25 last week. Twenty-five years of marriage. WENDY: So the parents feel when you came to Leominster to teach? GEORGE: Oh, they were happy 'cause I was gonna stay. Nobody wants their children to move, you know that. So they're happy that I got a job in Leominster. WENDY: But it wasn't just a job. You became a teacher. GEORGE: But I never left the community, [laughter] actually. I mean, when I went to Holy Cross, I was a base student. I didn't live there. And they always knew I was gonna be a teacher 'cause I always said I was gonna be a teacher. That was always… I'd made up my mind. By the time I'm in seventh grade, I knew I want to be a schoolteacher, so that was it. So there was no big surprise, and they accepted it. I don't know if they wanted me to be a lawyer or something else. My brother became a lawyer but I didn't, I just wanted to be a schoolteacher. I was happy. I used to be a very happy schoolteacher. WENDY: What made you become a… GEORGE: Combination of things. Like my wife said, "Before you take the job, are you sure you wanna be one? Don't do it for the money." 35 And I said, "No, I won't do it for the money." But the money was good compared to teaching, and it was a new challenge. But if I didn't become a principal, I'd have been happy anyway. Like my wife said, I always used to sing going to school in the morning, so I was happy. I had a happy life. I was also the audio-visual director, so I had a couple periods off every day to do that. So it was a combination that you didn't get bored, you know, you taught your classes and then you went into these audio-visual materials. And I always kept busy and never had any big problems with children, so that's fine. In fact, I still run into students who remember our days in class and the punishments, which are big jokes, you know, and it was fun. And even when I was looking for better jobs, I'd go to the school boards; some of them were my pupils, and they would joke with me what we used to do in class and all. I actually get people coming up—Norma can tell you that—they still come up and say, "Remember when…" NORMA: [Unintelligible - 01:17:23] write papers, that's what I always hear. WENDY: Write papers. What subject did you teach? GEORGE: I was a Social Studies teacher. I had taught a little bit of English in junior high when I was a long-term sub there, but basically a Social Studies teacher. I teach world history and geography and economics, current events, government, depending upon what they needed in that particular year. I always used to like to teach three subjects. I didn't like teaching one subject all day, so I teach three. And every year I get a new set of textbooks so I wouldn't bog down, repeating the same things all the time. This year I'd get a new history book and next year I'd get a new geography book, the next year I'd get a new economics book or government book. So it's always something different, and it was a lot of fun.36 WENDY: How did you see education change from the time that you were at Leominster High School? GEORGE: Well, of course, there's more technology involved now, but they haven't changed that much, you know. They're not as reluctant to speak as they were in the old days, but you can still control them, you can still -- they still can be reasonable. They have to know why more now than they did in the old days. For example, I would punish children as a principal, then I would say, "What did you do? Did you egg the teacher on?" And most of them would say, "Yeah." So, "Then what do you want me to do about it? [Unintelligible - 01:19:13] punishment coming?" But he said this, "Did you egg him on?" "Yeah, I did." "I'll speak to him, but I also have to punish you too because you egged him on." And he was, "Okay." That's that. They wanna be treated fairly. The old days, you know, they're the boss and we're not. But today, you let them know the ground rules and it works out pretty well. At least I think it that. I haven't taught for a few years now, but when I was at the end of my career, they would come in and see me and they'd sit and talk. And I always had a jar of candy, you know./AT/jf/rs/es
