Suchergebnisse

Debarun Bhattacharjya (" Formulating Asymmetric Decision Problems as Decision Circuits " and " From Reliability Block Diagrams to Fault Tree Circuits ") is a research staff member in the Risk Analytics team within the broader Business Analytics and Math Sciences division at IBM T.J. Watson Research Center. He received his Ph.D. in management science and engineering at Stanford University. His primary research interests lie in decision and risk analysis, and probabilistic models and decision theory in artificial intelligence. Specifically, he has pursued research in probabilistic graphical models (influence diagrams and Bayesian networks), value of information, sensitivity analysis, and utility theory. His applied work has been in domains such as sales, energy, business services, and public policy. He has coauthored more than 10 publications in highly refereed journals and conference proceedings, as well as two patents. He was nominated by IBM management for the Young Researcher Connection at the Institute for Operations Research and the Management Sciences (INFORMS) Practice Conference in 2010. Email: debarunb@us.ibm.com . May Cheung (" Regulation Games Between Government and Competing Companies: Oil Spills and Other Disasters ") is an undergraduate senior in the Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering at the University at Buffalo. Her research interests are in decision analysis, optimization, and simulation with respect to complex, high-impact decisions. Email: mgcheung@buffalo.edu . Léa A. Deleris (" From Reliability Block Diagrams to Fault Tree Circuits ") is a research staff member and manager at IBM Dublin Research Laboratory, where she oversees the Risk Collaboratory, a three-year research project funded in part by the Irish Industrial Development Agency around risk management, from stochastic optimization to the communication of risk information to decision makers. Prior to joining the Dublin lab, she was a research staff member with the Risk Analytics Group, Business Application and Mathematical Science Department, IBM T.J. Watson Research Center, Yorktown Heights, New York. Her primary interests have been in the fields of decision theory and risk analysis. Her work is currently focused on leveraging natural language processing techniques to facilitate the construction of risk models, distributed elicitation of expert opinions, and value of information problems. She holds a Ph.D. in management science and engineering from Stanford University. Email: lea.deleris@ie.ibm.com . Philippe Delquié (" Risk Measures from Risk-Reducing Experiments ") is an associate professor of decision sciences at the George Washington University, and holds a Ph.D. from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Professor Delquié's teaching and research are in decision, risk, and multicriteria analysis. His research is at the nexus of behavioral and normative theories of decision, addressing issues in preference elicitation, value of information, nonexpected utility models of choice, and risk measures. Prior to joining the George Washington University, he held academic appointments at INSEAD, the University of Texas at Austin, and École Normale Supérieure, France, and visiting appointments at Duke University's Fuqua School of Business. He is on the editorial board of Decision Analysis and has completed a term as an associate editor. Email: delquie@gwu.edu . Lorraine Dodd (" Regulating Autonomous Agents Facing Conflicting Objectives: A Command and Control Example ") is a highly respected international contributor to command and leadership studies within military and UK governmental command, control, intelligence and information analysis, and research. She has an honours degree in pure mathematics and an M.Sc. in operational research and management science from the University of Warwick majoring in catastrophe theory and nonlinearity. Her main interest is in sense-making, decision making, and risk taking under conditions of uncertainty, confusion, volatility, ambiguity, and contention, as applied to the study of institutions, organizations, society, people, and governance. She uses analogy with brain functions and coherent cellular functions to develop mathematical models of complex decision behavior. Her most recent studies include an application of a multiagency, multiperspective approaches to collaborative decision making and planning, and development of an "open-eyes/open-mind" framework to provide support to leaders when dealing with complex crises and "black swans." She has developed an understanding of the nonlinear, slow and fast dynamics of behavior, in particular, of means of organizing for agility in complex and uncertain environments. Email: l.dodd@cranfield.ac.uk . Rachele Foschi (" Interactions Between Ageing and Risk Properties in the Analysis of Burn-in Problems ") has an M.Sc. and a Ph.D. in mathematics from the University of Rome La Sapienza, where she also worked as a tutor for the courses of calculus and probability. Currently, she is an assistant professor in the Economics and Institutional Change Research Area at IMT (Institutions, Markets, Technologies) Advanced Studies, in Lucca, Italy. Her research interests include stochastic dependence, reliability, stochastic orders, point processes, and mathematical models in economics. Random sets and graphs, linguistics, and behavioral models are of broader interest to her. Email: rachele.foschi@imtlucca.it . Simon French (" Expert Judgment, Meta-analysis, and Participatory Risk Analysis ") recently joined the Department of Statistics at the University of Warwick to become the director of the Risk Initiative and Statistical Consultancy Unit. Prior to joining the University of Warwick, he was a professor of information and decision sciences at Manchester Business School. Simon's research career began in Bayesian statistics, and he was one of the first to apply hierarchical modeling, particularly in the domain of protein crystallography. Nowadays he is better known for his work on decision making, which began with his early work on decision theory. Over the years, his work has generally become more applied: looking at ways of supporting real decision makers facing major strategic and risk issues. In collaboration with psychologists, he has sought to support real decision makers and stakeholders in complex decisions in ways that are mindful of their human characteristics. He has a particular interest in societal decision making, particularly with respect to major risks. He has worked on public risk communication and engagement and the wider areas of stakeholder involvement and deliberative democracy. Simon has worked across the public and private sectors, often in contexts that relate to the environment, energy, food safety, and the nuclear industry. In all of his work, the emphasis is on multidisciplinary and participatory approaches to solving real problems. Email: simon.french@warwick.ac.uk . L. Robin Keller (" From the Editors: Games and Decisions in Reliability and Risk ") is a professor of operations and decision technologies in the Merage School of Business at the University of California, Irvine. She received her Ph.D. and M.B.A. in management science and her B.A. in mathematics from the University of California, Los Angeles. She has served as a program director for the Decision, Risk, and Management Science Program of the U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF). Her research is on decision analysis and risk analysis for business and policy decisions and has been funded by NSF and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Her research interests cover multiple attribute decision making, riskiness, fairness, probability judgments, ambiguity of probabilities or outcomes, risk analysis (for terrorism, environmental, health, and safety risks), time preferences, problem structuring, cross-cultural decisions, and medical decision making. She is currently the editor-in-chief of Decision Analysis, published by the Institute for Operations Research and the Management Sciences (INFORMS). She is a fellow of INFORMS and has held numerous roles in INFORMS, including board member and chair of the INFORMS Decision Analysis Society. She is a recipient of the George F. Kimball Medal from INFORMS. She has served as the decision analyst on three National Academy of Sciences committees. Email: lrkeller@uci.edu . Miguel A. Lejeune (" Game Theoretical Approach for Reliable Enhanced Indexation ") is an assistant professor of decision sciences at the George Washington University (GWU) and holds a Ph.D. degree from Rutgers University. Prior to joining GWU, he was a visiting assistant professor in operations research at Carnegie Mellon University. His areas of expertise/research interests include stochastic programming, financial risk, and large-scale optimization. He is the recipient of a Young Investigator/CAREER Research Grant (2009) from the Army Research Office. He also received the IBM Smarter Planet Faculty Innovation Award (December 2011) and the Royal Belgian Sciences Academy Award for his master's thesis. Email: mlejeune@gwu.edu . Jason R. W. Merrick (" From the Editors: Games and Decisions in Reliability and Risk ") is a professor in the Department of Statistical Sciences and Operations Research at Virginia Commonwealth University. He has a D.Sc. in operations research from the George Washington University. He teaches courses in decision analysis, risk analysis, and simulation. His research is primarily in the area of decision analysis and Bayesian statistics. He has worked on projects ranging from assessing maritime oil transportation and ferry system safety, the environmental health of watersheds, and optimal replacement policies for rail tracks and machine tools, and he has received grants from the National Science Foundation, the Federal Aviation Administration, the United States Coast Guard, the American Bureau of Shipping, British Petroleum, and Booz Allen Hamilton, among others. He has also performed training for Infineon Technologies, Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, and Capital One Services. He is an associate editor for Decision Analysis and Operations Research. He is the information officer for the Decision Analysis Society of INFORMS. Email: jrmerric@vcu.edu . Gilberto Montibeller (" Modeling State-Dependent Priorities of Malicious Agents ") is a tenured lecturer in decision sciences in the Department of Management at the London School of Economics (LSE). With a first degree in electrical engineering (Universidade Federal de Santa Catarina (UFSC), Brazil, 1993), he started his career as an executive at British and American Tobacco. Moving back to academia, he was awarded a master's degree (UFSC, 1996) and a Ph.D. in production engineering (UFSC/University of Strathclyde, United Kingdom, 2000). He then continued his studies as a postdoctoral research fellow in management science at the University of Strathclyde (2002–2003). He is an area editor of the Journal of Multi-Criteria Decision Analysis, and he is on the editorial board of Decision Analysis and the EURO Journal on Decision Processes. His main research interest is on supporting strategic-level decision making, both in terms of decision analytic methodologies and of decision processes. He has been funded by the AXA Research Fund, United Kingdom's EPSRC (Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council), and Brazil's CAPES (Coordenação de Aperfeiçoamento de Pessoal de Nível Superior). His research has been published in journals such as the European Journal of Operational Research, Decision Support Systems, and OMEGA—The International Journal of Management Science. One of his papers, on the evaluation of strategic options and scenario planning, was awarded the Wiley Prize in Applied Decision Analysis by the International Society of Multi-Criteria Decision Making. He has had visiting positions at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA, Austria) and the University of Warwick (United Kingdom), and is a visiting associate professor of production engineering at the University of São Paulo (Brazil). He also has extensive experience in applying decision analysis in practice; over the past 17 years he has provided consulting to both private and public organizations in Europe and South America. He is a regular speaker at the LSE Executive Education courses. Email: g.montibeller@lse.ac.uk . M. Elisabeth Paté-Cornell (" Games, Risks, and Analytics: Several Illustrative Cases Involving National Security and Management Situations ") specializes in engineering risk analysis with application to complex systems (space, medical, etc.). Her research has focused on explicit inclusion of human and organizational factors in the analysis of systems' failure risks. Her recent work is on the use of game theory in risk analysis with applications that have included counterterrorism and nuclear counterproliferation problems. She is a member of the National Academy of Engineering, the French Académie des Technologies, and of several boards, including Aerospace, Draper Laboratory, and In-Q-Tel. Dr. Paté-Cornell was a member of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board from December 2001 to 2008. She holds an engineering degree (applied mathematics and computer science) from the Institut Polytechnique de Grenoble (France), an M.S. in operations research and a Ph.D. in engineering-economic systems, both from Stanford University. Email: mep@stanford.edu . Jesus Rios (" Adversarial Risk Analysis: The Somali Pirates Case ") is a research staff member at the IBM T.J. Watson Research Center. He has a Ph.D. in computer sciences and mathematical modeling from the University Rey Juan Carlos. Before joining IBM, he worked in several universities as a researcher, including the University of Manchester, the University of Luxembourg, Aalborg University, and Concordia University. He participated in the 2007 SAMSI program on Risk Analysis, Extreme Events, and Decision Theory, and led work in the area of adversarial risk analysis. He has also worked as a consultant for clients in the transportation, distribution, energy, defense, and telecommunication sectors. His main research interests are in the areas of risk and decision analysis and its applications. Email: jriosal@us.ibm.com . David Rios Insua (" Adversarial Risk Analysis: The Somali Pirates Case ") is a professor of statistics and operations research at Rey Juan Carlos University and a member of the Spanish Royal Academy of Sciences. He has written 15 monographs and more than 90 refereed papers in his areas of interest, which include decision analysis, negotiation analysis, risk analysis, and Bayesian statistics, and their applications. He is scientific advisor of AISoy Robotics. He is on the editorial board of Decision Analysis. Email: david.rios@urjc.es . Fabrizio Ruggeri (" From the Editors: Games and Decisions in Reliability and Risk ") is the director of research at IMATI CNR (Institute of Applied Mathematics and Information Technology at the Italian National Research Council) in Milano, Italy. He received a B.Sc. in mathematics from the University of Milano, an M.Sc. in statistics from Carnegie Mellon University, and a Ph.D. in statistics from Duke University. After a start as a researcher at Alfa Romeo and then a computer consultant, he has been working at CNR since 1987. His interests are mostly in Bayesian and industrial statistics, especially in robustness, decision analysis, reliability, and stochastic processes; recently, he got involved in biostatistics and biology as well. Dr. Ruggeri is an adjunct faculty member at the Polytechnic Institute (New York University), a faculty member in the Ph.D. program in mathematics and statistics at the University of Pavia, a foreign faculty member in the Ph.D. program in statistics at the University of Valparaiso, and a member of the advisory board of the Ph.D. program in mathematical engineering at Polytechnic of Milano. An ASA Fellow and an ISI elected member, Dr. Ruggeri is the current ISBA (International Society for Bayesian Analysis) president and former ENBIS (European Network for Business and Industrial Statistics) president. He is the editor-in-chief of Applied Stochastic Models in Business and Industry and the Encyclopedia of Statistics in Quality and Reliability, and he is also the Chair of the Bayesian Inference in Stochastic Processes workshops and codirector of the Applied Bayesian Statistics summer school. Email: fabrizio@mi.imati.cnr.it . Juan Carlos Sevillano (" Adversarial Risk Analysis: The Somali Pirates Case ") is a part-time lecturer at the Department of Statistics and Operations Research II (Decision Methods) at the School of Economics of Complutense University. He holds a B.Sc. in mathematics from Complutense University and an M.Sc. in decision systems engineering from Rey Juan Carlos University. Email: sevimjc@ccee.ucm.es . Ross D. Shachter (" Formulating Asymmetric Decision Problems as Decision Circuits ") is an associate professor in the Department of Management Science and Engineering at Stanford University, where his teaching includes probability, decision analysis, and influence diagrams. He has been at Stanford since earning his Ph.D. in operations research from the University of California, Berkeley in 1982, except for two years visiting the Duke University Center for Health Policy Research and Education. His main research focus has been on the communication and analysis of the relationships among uncertain quantities in the graphical representations called Bayesian belief networks and influence diagrams, and in the 1980s he developed the DAVID influence diagram processing system for the Macintosh. His research in medical decision analysis has included the analysis of vaccination strategies and cancer screening and follow-up. At Duke he helped to develop an influence diagram-based approach for medical technology assessment. He has served on the Decision Analysis Society (DAS) of INFORMS Council, chaired its student paper competition, organized the DAS cluster in Nashville, and was honored with its Best Publication Award. For INFORMS, he organized the 1992 Doctoral Colloquium and has been an associate editor in decision analysis for Management Science and Operations Research. He has also served as Program Chair and General Chair for the Uncertainty in Artificial Intelligence Conference. At Stanford he served from 1990 until 2011 as a resident fellow in an undergraduate dormitory, and he was active in planning the university's new student orientation activities and alcohol policy. Email: shachter@stanford.edu . Jim Q. Smith (" Regulating Autonomous Agents Facing Conflicting Objectives: A Command and Control Example ") has been a full professor of statistics at the University of Warwick in the United Kingdom for 18 years, receiving a Ph.D. from Warwick University in 1977, and has more than 100 refereed publications in the area of Bayesian decision theory and related fields. He has particular interests in customizing probabilistic models in dynamic, high-dimensional problems to the practical needs of a decision maker, often using novel graphical approaches. As well as teaching decision analysis to more than 3,000 top math students in the United Kingdom and supervising 23 Ph.D. students in his areas of expertise, he has been chairman of the Risk Initiative and Statistical Consultancy Unit at Warwick for 10 years, engaging vigorously in the university's interaction with industry and commerce. His book Bayesian Decision Analysis: Principles and Practice was published by Cambridge University Press in 2010. Email: j.q.smith@warwick.ac.uk . Refik Soyer (" From the Editors: Games and Decisions in Reliability and Risk ") is a professor of decision sciences and of statistics and the chair of the Department of Decision Sciences at the George Washington University (GWU). He also serves as the director of the Institute for Integrating Statistics in Decision Sciences at GWU. He received his D.Sc. in University of Sussex, England, and B.A. in Economics from Boğaziçi University, Turkey. His areas of interest are Bayesian statistics and decision analysis, stochastic modeling, statistical aspects of reliability analysis, and time-series analysis. He has published more than 90 articles. His work has appeared in journals such as Journal of the American Statistical Association; Journal of the Royal Statistical Society, Ser. B.; Technometrics; Biometrics; Journal of Econometrics; Statistical Science; International Statistical Review; and Management Science. He has also coedited a volume titled Mathematical Reliability: An Expository Perspective. Soyer is an elected member of the International Statistical Institute, a fellow of the Turkish Statistical Association, and a fellow of the American Statistical Association. He was vice president of the International Association for Statistical Computing. He served on the editorial board of the Journal of the American Statistical Association and is currently an associate editor of the Applied Stochastic Models in Business and Industry. Email: soyer@gwu.edu . Fabio Spizzichino (" Interactions Between Ageing and Risk Properties in the Analysis of Burn-in Problems ") is a full professor of probability theory at the Department of Mathematics, the Sapienza University of Rome. He teaches courses on introductory probability, advanced probability, and stochastic processes. In the past, he has also taught courses on basic mathematical statistics, Bayesian statistics, decision theory, and reliability theory. His primary research interests are related to probability theory and its applications. A partial list of scientific activities includes dependence models, stochastic ageing for lifetimes, and (semi-)copulas; first-passage times and optimal stopping times for Markov chains and discrete state-space processes; order statistics property for counting processes in continuous or discrete time, in one or more dimensions; sufficiency concepts in Bayesian statistics and stochastic filtering; and reliability of coherent systems and networks. He also has a strong interest in the connections among the above-mentioned topics and in their applications in different fields. At the present time, he is particularly interested in the relations among dependence, ageing, and utility functions. Email: fabio.spizzichino@uniroma1.it . Sumitra Sri Bhashyam (" Modeling State-Dependent Priorities of Malicious Agents ") is a Ph.D. candidate in the Management Science Group at the London School of Economics (LSE). Her Ph.D. thesis is supervised by Dr. Gilberto Montibeller and cosupervised by Dr. David Lane. Her research interests include decision analysis, multicriteria decision analysis, preference modeling, and preference change. Before coming to study in the United Kingdom, Sri Bhashyam studied mathematics, physics, and computer sciences in France for two years, after which she moved to the United Kingdom to complete a B.A.Hons in marketing communications and then an M.Sc. in operational research from the LSE. She worked as a project manager at Xerox and, subsequently, as a consultant for an SME (small and medium enterprise) to help them set up their quality management system. Alongside the Ph.D., and participating in other research and consultancy projects, she has been a graduate teaching assistant for undergraduate, master, and executive students at the LSE. The courses she teaches include topics such as normative and descriptive decision theory, prescriptive decision analysis, simulation modeling and analysis. Email: s.sribhashyam@lse.ac.uk . Jun Zhuang (" Regulation Games Between Government and Competing Companies: Oil Spills and Other Disasters ") has been an assistant professor of industrial and systems engineering at the University at Buffalo, the State University of New York (SUNY-Buffalo), since he obtained his Ph.D. in industrial engineering in 2008 from the University of Wisconsin–Madison. Dr. Zhuang's long-term research goal is to integrate operations research and game theory to better mitigate, prepare for, respond to, and recover from both natural and man-made hazards. Other areas of interest include healthcare, sports, transportation, supply chain management, and sustainability. Dr. Zhuang's research has been supported by the U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF), by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) through the Center for Risk and Economic Analysis of Terrorism Events (CREATE) and National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START), by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) through the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), and by the U.S. Air Force Office of Scientific Research (AFOSR) through the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL). Dr. Zhuang is a fellow of the 2011 U.S. Air Force Summer Faculty Fellowship Program (AF SFFP), sponsored by the AFOSR. Dr. Zhuang is also a fellow of the 2009–2010 Next Generation of Hazards and Disasters Researchers Program, sponsored by the NSF. Dr. Zhuang is on the editorial board of Decision Analysis and is the coeditor of Decision Analysis Today. Email: jzhuang@buffalo.edu .

Ali Abbas (" From the Editors… ") is an associate professor in the Department of Industrial and Enterprise Systems Engineering at the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign. He received an M.S. in electrical engineering (1998), an M.S. in engineering economic systems and operations research (2001), a Ph.D. in management science and engineering (2003), and a Ph.D. (minor) in electrical engineering, all from Stanford University. He worked as a lecturer in the Department of Management Science and Engineering at Stanford and worked in Schlumberger Oilfield Services from 1991 to 1997, where he held several international positions in wireline logging, operations management, and international training. He has also worked on several consulting projects for mergers and acquisitions in California, and cotaught several executive seminars on decision analysis at Strategic Decisions Group in Menlo Park, California. His research interests include utility theory, decision making with incomplete information and preferences, dynamic programming, and information theory. Dr. Abbas is a senior member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) and a member of the Institute for Operations Research and the Management Sciences (INFORMS). He is also an associate editor for Decision Analysis and Operations Research and coeditor of the DA column in education for Decision Analysis Today. Address: Department of Industrial and Enterprise Systems Engineering, College of Engineering, University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign, 117 Transportation Building, MC-238, 104 South Mathews Avenue, Urbana, IL 61801; e-mail: aliabbas@uiuc.edu . Matthew D. Bailey (" Eliciting Patients' Revealed Preferences: An Inverse Markov Decision Process Approach ") is an assistant professor of business analytics and operations in the School of Management at Bucknell University, and he is an adjunct research investigator with Geisinger Health System. He received his Ph.D. in industrial and operations engineering from the University of Michigan. His primary research interest is in sequential decision making under uncertainty with applications to health-care operations and medical decision making. He is a member of the Institute for Operations Research and the Management Sciences (INFORMS) and the Institute of Industrial Engineers (IIE). Address: School of Management, Bucknell University, 308 Taylor Hall, Lewisburg, PA 17837; e-mail: matt.bailey@bucknell.edu . Anthony M. Barrett (" Cost Effectiveness of On-Site Chlorine Generation for Chlorine Truck Attack Prevention ") is a risk analyst at ABS Consulting in Arlington, Virginia. He holds a Ph.D. in engineering and public policy from Carnegie Mellon University, and he also was a postdoctoral research associate at the Homeland Security Center for Risk and Economic Analysis of Terrorism Events (CREATE) at the University of Southern California. His research interests include risk analysis, risk management, and public policies in a wide variety of areas, including terrorism, hazardous materials, energy and the environment, and natural hazards. Address: ABS Consulting, 1525 Wilson Boulevard, Suite 625, Arlington, VA 22209; e-mail: abarrett@absconsulting.com . Manel Baucells (" From the Editors… ") is a full professor at the Department of Economics and Business of Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona. He was an associate professor and head of the Managerial Decision Sciences Department at IESE Business School. He earned his Ph.D. in management from the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) and holds a degree in mechanical engineering from Polytechnic University of Catalonia (UPC). His research and consulting activities cover multiple areas of decision making including group decisions, consumer decisions, uncertainty, complexity, and psychology. He acts as associate editor for the top journals Management Science, Operations Research, and Decision Analysis. He has received various prizes and grants for his research. In 2001, he won the student paper competition of the Decision Analysis Society. He is the only IESE professor having won both the Excellence Research Award and the Excellence Teaching Award. He has been visiting professor at Duke University, UCLA, London Business School, and Erasmus University. Address: Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Ramon Trias Fargas 25-27, 08005 Barcelona, Spain; e-mail: manel.baucells@upf.edu . J. Eric Bickel (" Scoring Rules and Decision Analysis Education ") is an assistant professor in both the Operations Research/Industrial Engineering Group (Department of Mechanical Engineering) and the Department of Petroleum and Geosystems Engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. In addition, Professor Bickel is a fellow in both the Center for International Energy and Environmental Policy and the Center for Petroleum Asset Risk Management. He holds an M.S. and Ph.D. from the Department of Engineering-Economic Systems at Stanford University and a B.S. in mechanical engineering with a minor in economics from New Mexico State University. His research interests include the theory and practice of decision analysis and its application in the energy and climate-change arenas. His research has addressed the modeling of probabilistic dependence, value of information, scoring rules, calibration, risk preference, education, decision making in sports, and climate engineering as a response to climate change. Prior to joining the University of Texas at Austin, Professor Bickel was an assistant professor at Texas A&M University and a senior engagement manager for Strategic Decisions Group. He has consulted around the world in a range of industries, including oil and gas, electricity generation/transmission/delivery, energy trading and marketing, commodity and specialty chemicals, life sciences, financial services, and metals and mining. Address: Graduate Program in Operations Research, The University of Texas at Austin, 1 University Station, C2200, Austin, TX 78712-0292; e-mail: ebickel@mail.utexas.edu . Vicki M. Bier (" From the Editors… ") holds a joint appointment as a professor in the Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering and the Department of Engineering Physics at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, where she has directed the Center for Human Performance and Risk Analysis (formerly the Center for Human Performance in Complex Systems) since 1995. She has more than 20 years of experience in risk analysis for the nuclear power, chemical, petrochemical, and aerospace industries. Before returning to academia, she spent seven years as a consultant at Pickard, Lowe and Garrick, Inc. While there, her clients included the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the U.S. Department of Energy, and a number of nuclear utilities, and she prepared testimony for Atomic Safety and Licensing Board hearings on the safety of the Indian Point nuclear power plants. Dr. Bier's current research focuses on applications of risk analysis and related methods to problems of security and critical infrastructure protection, under support from the Department of Homeland Security. Dr. Bier received the Women's Achievement Award from the American Nuclear Society in 1993, and was elected a Fellow of the Society for Risk Analysis in 1996, from which she received the Distinguished Achievement Award in 2007. She has written a number of papers and book chapters related to uncertainty analysis and decision making under uncertainty, and is the author of two scholarly review articles on risk communication. She served as the engineering editor for Risk Analysis from 1997 through 2001, and has served as a councilor of both the Society for Risk Analysis and the Decision Analysis Society, for which she is currently vice president and president elect. Dr. Bier has also served as a member of both the Radiation Advisory Committee and the Homeland Security Advisory Committee of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Science Advisory Board. Address: Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering, University of Wisconsin–Madison, 1513 University Avenue, Madison, WI 53706; e-mail: bier@engr.wisc.edu . Samuel E. Bodily (" Darden's Luckiest Student: Lessons from a High-Stakes Risk Experiment ") is the John Tyler Professor of Business Administration at the University of Virginia's Darden School of Business and has published textbooks and more than 40 articles in journals ranging from Harvard Business Review to Management Science. His publications relate to decision and risk analysis, forecasting, strategy modeling, revenue management, and eStrategy. He has edited special issues of Interfaces on decision and risk analysis and strategy modeling and analysis. Professor Bodily has published well over 100 cases, including a couple of the 10 best-selling cases at Darden. He received the Distinguished Casewriter Wachovia Award from Darden in 2005 and three other best case or research Wachovia awards. He is faculty leader for an executive program on Strategic Thinking and Action. He is the course head of, and teaches in, a highly valued first-year MBA course in decision analysis, has a successful second-year elective on Management Decision Models, and has taught eStrategy and Strategy. He is a past winner of the Decision Sciences International Instructional Award and has served as chair of the INFORMS Decision Analysis Society. He has taught numerous executive education programs for Darden and private companies, has consulted widely for business and government entities, and has served as an expert witness. Professor Bodily was on the faculties of MIT Sloan School of Management and Boston University and has been a visiting professor at INSEAD Singapore, Stanford University, and the University of Washington. He has a Ph.D. degree and an S.M. degree from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a B.S. degree in physics from Brigham Young University. Address: Darden School of Business, 100 Darden Boulevard, Charlottesville, VA 22903; e-mail: bodilys@virginia.edu . David Budescu (" From the Editors… ") is the Anne Anastasi Professor of Psychometrics and Quantitative Psychology at Fordham University. He held positions at the University of Illinois and the University of Haifa, and visiting positions at Carnegie Mellon University, University of Gotheborg, the Kellog School at Northwestern University, the Hebrew University, and the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion). His research is in the areas of human judgment, individual and group decision making under uncertainty and with incomplete and vague information, and statistics for the behavioral and social sciences. He is or was on the editorial boards of Applied Psychological Measurement; Decision Analysis; Journal of Behavioral Decision Making; Journal of Mathematical Psychology; Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory and Cognition (2000–2003); Multivariate Behavioral Research; Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes (1992–2002); and Psychological Methods (1996–2000). He is past president of the Society for Judgment and Decision Making (2000–2001), fellow of the Association for Psychological Science, and an elected member of the Society of Multivariate Experimental Psychologists. Address: Department of Psychology, Fordham University, Bronx, New York, NY 10458; e-mail: budescu@fordham.edu . John C. Butler (" From the Editors… ") is a clinical associate professor of finance and the academic director of the Energy Management and Innovation Center in the McCombs School of Business at the University of Texas at Austin, and the secretary/treasurer of the INFORMS Decision Analysis Society. Butler received his Ph.D. in management science and information systems from the University of Texas in 1998. His research interests involve the use of decision science models to support decision making, with a particular emphasis on decision and risk analysis models with multiple performance criteria. Butler has consulted with a number of organizations regarding the application of decision analysis tools to a variety of practical problems. Most of his consulting projects involve use of Visual Basic for Applications and Excel to implement complex decision science models in a user-friendly format. Address: Center for Energy Management and Innovation, McCombs School of Business, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX 78712-1178; e-mail: john.butler2@mccombs.utexas.edu . Philippe Delquié (" From the Editors… ") is an associate professor of decision sciences at the George Washington University and holds a Ph.D. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Professor Delquié's teaching and research are in decision, risk, and multicriteria analysis. His work focuses on the interplay of behavioral and normative theories of choice, with the aim of improving managerial decision making and risk taking. His research addresses issues in preference assessment, value of information, nonexpected utility models of choice under risk, and risk measures. Prior to joining the George Washington University, he held academic appointments at INSEAD, the University of Texas at Austin, and École Normale Supérieure, France, and visiting appointments at Duke University's Fuqua School of Business. Address: Department of Decision Sciences, George Washington University, Funger Hall, Suite 415, Washington, DC 20052; e-mail: delquie@gwu.edu . Zeynep Erkin (" Eliciting Patients' Revealed Preferences: An Inverse Markov Decision Process Approach ") is a Ph.D. candidate in the Department of Industrial Engineering at the University of Pittsburgh. She received her M.S. and B.S. degrees in industrial engineering from the University of Pittsburgh and Middle East Technical University, Turkey, in 2008 and 2006, respectively. Her research interests include maintenance optimization and medical decision making. Address: Department of Industrial Engineering, University of Pittsburgh, 3600 O'Hara Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15261; e-mail: zee2@pitt.edu . Peter I. Frazier (" Paradoxes in Learning and the Marginal Value of Information ") is an assistant professor in the School of Operations Research and Information Engineering at Cornell University. He received a Ph.D. in operations research and financial engineering from Princeton University in 2009. His research interest is in the optimal acquisition of information, with applications in simulation, medicine, operations management, neuroscience, and information retrieval. He teaches courses in simulation and statistics. Address: School of Operations Research and Information Engineering, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853; e-mail: pf98@cornell.edu . L. Robin Keller (" From the Editors… ") is a professor of operations and decision technologies in the Merage School of Business at the University of California, Irvine. She received her Ph.D. and M.B.A. in management science and her B.A. in mathematics from the University of California, Los Angeles. She has served as a program director for the Decision, Risk, and Management Science Program of the U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF). Her research is on decision analysis and risk analysis for business and policy decisions and has been funded by NSF and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Her research interests cover multiple-attribute decision making, riskiness, fairness, probability judgments, ambiguity of probabilities or outcomes, risk analysis (for terrorism, environmental, health, and safety risks), time preferences, problem structuring, cross-cultural decisions, and medical decision making. She is currently Editor-in-Chief of Decision Analysis, published by the Institute for Operations Research and the Management Sciences (INFORMS). She is a Fellow of INFORMS and has held numerous roles in INFORMS, including board member and chair of the INFORMS Decision Analysis Society. She is a recipient of the George F. Kimball Medal from INFORMS. She has served as the decision analyst on three National Academy of Sciences committees. Address: The Paul Merage School of Business, University of California, Irvine, Irvine, CA 92697-3125; e-mail: lrkeller@uci.edu . Lisa M. Maillart (" Eliciting Patients' Revealed Preferences: An Inverse Markov Decision Process Approach ") is an associate professor in the Industrial Engineering Department at the University of Pittsburgh. Prior to joining the faculty at the University of Pittsburgh, she served on the faculty of the Department of Operations in the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve University. She received her M.S. and B.S. in industrial and systems engineering from Virginia Tech, and her Ph.D. in industrial and operations engineering from the University of Michigan. Her primary research interest is in sequential decision making under uncertainty, with applications in medical decision making and maintenance optimization. She is a member of the Institute for Operations Research and the Management Sciences (INFORMS), the Society of Medical Decision Making (SMDM), and the Institute of Industrial Engineers (IIE). Address: Department of Industrial Engineering, University of Pittsburgh, 3600 O'Hara Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15261; e-mail: maillart@pitt.edu . Jason R. W. Merrick (" From the Editors… ") is an associate professor in the Department of Statistical Sciences and Operations Research at Virginia Commonwealth University. He has a D.Sc. in operations research from the George Washington University. He teaches courses in decision analysis, risk analysis, and simulation. His research is primarily in the area of decision analysis and Bayesian statistics. He has worked on projects ranging from assessing maritime oil transportation and ferry system safety, the environmental health of watersheds, and optimal replacement policies for rail tracks and machine tools, and he has received grants from the National Science Foundation, the Federal Aviation Administration, the United States Coast Guard, the American Bureau of Shipping, British Petroleum, and Booz Allen Hamilton, among others. He has also performed training for Infineon Technologies, Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, and Capital One Services. He is an associate editor for Decision Analysis and Operations Research. He is the information officer for the Decision Analysis Society. Address: Department of Statistical Sciences and Operations Research, Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, VA 23284; e-mail: jrmerric@vcu.edu . Phillip E. Pfeifer (" Darden's Luckiest Student: Lessons from a High-Stakes Risk Experiment ") is the Richard S. Reynolds Professor of Business at the University of Virginia's Darden School of Business, where he teaches courses in decision analysis and direct marketing. A graduate of Lehigh University and the Georgia Institute of Technology, his teaching has won student awards and has been recognized in Business Week's Guide to the Best Business Schools. He is an active researcher in the areas of decision making and direct marketing, and he currently serves on the editorial review board of the Journal of Interactive Marketing, which named him their best reviewer of 2008. In 2004 he was recognized as the Darden School's faculty leader in terms of external case sales, and in 2006 he coauthored a managerial book, Marketing Metrics: 50+ Metrics Every Executive Should Master, published by Wharton School Publishing, which was named best marketing book of the year by Strategy + Business. Address: Darden School of Business; 100 Darden Boulevard; Charlottesville, VA 22903; e-mail: pfeiferp@virginia.edu . Warren B. Powell (" Paradoxes in Learning and the Marginal Value of Information ") is a professor in the Department of Operations Research and Financial Engineering at Princeton University, where he has taught since 1981. He is the director of CASTLE Laboratory (Princeton University), which specializes in the development of stochastic optimization models and algorithms with applications in transportation and logistics, energy, health, and finance. The author or coauthor of more than 160 refereed publications, he is an INFORMS Fellow, and the author of Approximate Dynamic Programming: Solving the Curses of Dimensionality, published by John Wiley and Sons. His primary research interests are in approximate dynamic programming for high-dimensional applications and optimal learning (the efficient collection of information), and their application in energy systems analysis and transportation. He is a recipient of the Wagner prize and has twice been a finalist in the Edelman competition. He has also served in a variety of editorial and administrative positions for INFORMS, including INFORMS Board of Directors, area editor for Operations Research, president of the Transportation Science Section, and numerous prize and administrative committees. Address: Department of Operations Research and Financial Engineering, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544; e-mail: powell@princeton.edu . Mark S. Roberts (" Eliciting Patients' Revealed Preferences: An Inverse Markov Decision Process Approach "), M.D., M.P.P., is professor and chair of health policy and management, and he holds secondary appointments in medicine, industrial engineering, and clinical and translational science. A practicing general internist, he has conducted research in decision analysis and the mathematical modeling of disease for more than 25 years, and he has expertise in cost effectiveness analysis, mathematical optimization and simulation, and the measurement and inclusion of patient preferences into decision problems. He has used decision analysis to examine clinical, costs, policy and allocation questions in liver transplantation, vaccination strategies, operative interventions, and the use of many medications. His recent research has concentrated in the use of mathematical methods from operations research and management science, including Markov decision processes, discrete-event simulation, and integer programming, to problems in health care. Address: Department of Health Policy and Management, University of Pittsburgh, Graduate School of Public Health, 130 De Soto Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15261; e-mail: robertsm@upmc.edu . Ahti Salo (" From the Editors… ") is a professor of systems analysis at the Systems Analysis Laboratory of Aalto University. His research interests include topics in portfolio decision analysis, multicriteria decision making, risk management, efficiency analysis, and technology foresight. He is currently president of the Finnish Operations Research Society (FORS) and represents Europe and the Middle East in the INFORMS International Activities Committee. Professor Salo has been responsible for the methodological design and implementation of numerous high-impact decision and policy processes, including FinnSight 2015, the national foresight exercise of the Academy of Finland and the National Funding Agency for Technology and Innovations (Tekes). Address: Aalto University, Systems Analysis Laboratory, P.O. Box 11100, 00076 Aalto, Finland; e-mail: ahti.salo@tkk.fi . Andrew J. Schaefer (" Eliciting Patients' Revealed Preferences: An Inverse Markov Decision Process Approach ") is an associate professor of industrial engineering and Wellington C. Carl Fellow at the University of Pittsburgh. He has courtesy appointments in bioengineering, medicine, and clinical and translational science. He received his Ph.D. in industrial and systems engineering from Georgia Tech in 2000. His research interests include the application of stochastic optimization methods to health-care problems, as well as stochastic optimization techniques, in particular, stochastic integer programming. He is interested in patient-oriented decision making in contexts such as end-stage liver disease, HIV/AIDS, sepsis, and diabetes. He also models health-care systems, including operating rooms and intensive-care units. He is an associate editor for INFORMS Journal on Computing and IIE Transactions. Address: Department of Industrial Engineering, University of Pittsburgh, 3600 O'Hara Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15261; e-mail: Schaefer@pitt.edu . George Wu (" From the Editors… ") has been on the faculty of the University of Chicago Booth School of Business since September 1997. His degrees include A.B. (applied mathematics, 1985), S.M. (applied mathematics, 1987), and Ph.D. (decision sciences, 1991), all from Harvard University. Prior to joining the faculty at the University of Chicago, Professor Wu was on the faculty at Harvard Business School. Wu worked as a decision analyst at Procter & Gamble prior to starting graduate school. His research interests include descriptive and prescriptive aspects of decision making, in particular, decision making involving risk, cognitive biases in bargaining and negotiation, and managerial and organizational decision making. Professor Wu is a coordinating editor for Theory and Decision, an advisory editor for Journal of Risk and Uncertainty, on the editorial boards of Decision Analysis and Journal of Behavioral Decision Making, and a former department editor of Management Science. Address: Booth School of Business, University of Chicago, 5807 South Woodlawn Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637; e-mail: wu@chicagobooth.edu .

India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who has been in power for ten years, is seeking a third term in office. His goal is to restore the country to the preeminent position it supposedly lost due to previous Muslim and British rulers.He is kicking off the 2024 election year with the inauguration of the Ayodhya temple intended to liberate Hindus from the alleged enslavement they endured for 1,200 years.His supremacist ideology aims to transform the Hindu majority into an electoral majority. By intertwining politics and religion, it turns Muslims and Christians into aliens worthy only of the status of second-class citizens. Rarely has Hindu nationalist pride been so deeply flattered in India as at the start of 2024. With general elections looming in the South Asian giant – a huge ballot set to stretch over the months of April and May to allow hundreds of millions of voters to go to the polls – Narendra Modi is running for a third five-year term. He aims to make the religious question the common thread running through his campaign. On January 22nd, 2024, before an audience of 8,000 devotees, the head of government of the world's most populous country (1.43 billion inhabitants) led the solemn consecration of the Hindu temple currently under construction in Ayodhya, a holy city located on the Ganges plain. Boycotted by the opposition, this surreal piece of stage management is one of the most significant political events in India's contemporary history since the country gained independence in 1947.This inauguration marks the fulfilment of the Hindu supremacist fantasy formulated almost a century ago by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the association of the nation's volunteers founded in September 1925 in the city of Nagpur, at the exact geographical centre of the Indian subcontinent. The apparatchik Modi, born in 1950, was indoctrinated in the organisation from the age of eight and made his career there, before winning election mandates from the 2000s onwards. As the central core of the Hindu nationalist constellation around which dozens of student, workers' and farmers' organisations, publishing houses and charities orbit, as well as the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), the Indian People's Party – its political showcase –, the RSS considers the Ayodhya temple its ultimate Holy Grail. Narendra Modi made it happen. Ayodhya is becoming what Mecca is to Islam: the holiest place in Hinduism. The prime minister opened an international airport on December 31st, 2023, to draw millions of pilgrims from all over the world. In the eyes of the Indian people, the far-right leader is now either a timeless sage, detached from the material condition, or a fanatical guru.An authoritarian regime with theocratic overtonesNever had an Indian prime minister indulged in such a masquerade, but the West was unmoved. After receiving Narendra Modi in Paris with the greatest possible republican decorum for Bastille Day on July 14th, the French national holiday celebrating the homeland of human rights, Emmanuel Macron was the guest of honour of his Indian "friend" on January 26th, 2024, in Delhi. Initially, Joe Biden was to have been invited to the Republic Day military parade marking the anniversary of the Indian constitution. The US president reluctantly declined to attend in the wake of the recent attempted assassination of an American citizen of Indian origin in New York, an opponent of the Modi regime. Washington accuses the Indian secret service of being behind the attempt on his life.Yet India is well and truly in the process of exiting the democracy camp and sliding into an authoritarian regime with theocratic overtones, and not because prelates are taking the reins of the country – Hinduism has no clergy whatsoever – but because the policies pursued at the top of the state are driven solely by religious considerations, in defiance of the secularist thinking of India's founding fathers, Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru in particular. The current government is at pains to consign them to the dustbin of history, as well as other figures who are less well known in Europe, such as Nehru's right-hand man Vallabhbhai Patel and Babasaheb Ambedkar, the principal drafter of the constitution enacted in 1950.Like Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey, Narendra Modi is striving to merge religion1, nation and leadership, flying in the face of India's secular constitution. Describing India as "the world's largest democracy" no longer makes much sense today. More or less free elections are still held at the national and state levels, there is still a multi-party system and political changeovers occur regularly. But the foundations of democracy and the rule of law that typically accompany that are being eaten away and undermined one after another. The judiciary has been brought to heel, all the way up to its highest level, the Supreme Court. India's election commission, which is supposed to guarantee the pluralism of universal suffrage, has been placed under executive control; as recently as December 2023, the reform of the procedure for appointing its members made them entirely dependent on the government. In ten years, 17,000 international NGOs have been expelled from the country; opponents and what remains of the independent press has been severely repressed, and history has been completely rewritten in school textbooks. Fear reigns everywhere.The latest figures released in 2023 show that the ruling party attracts more than two-thirds of private donations to politics, and in a very opaque way. It has an unrivalled strike force, both human and financial, which it deploys without limit, particularly on social media. The BJP has become a bulldozer against which opposition parties have virtually no resistance in the northern half of the subcontinent, with the notable exception of Punjab state in the west, and Bengal state in the east, the traditional stronghold of Indian communism. Only the southern half of India holds its own, with the BJP proving unable to make inroads in most of the Deccan states, from Kerala to Telangana, taking in Tamil Nadu.Three heavyweight institutions have taken note of India's worrying new situation, downgrading it on the scale of democracies. For the past three years, the Swedish V-Dem Institute at the University of Gothenburg has classified India as an "electoral autocracy", a regime that looks like a democracy but which one by one scuttles all the checks and balances that could safegard the balance of power. The American NGO Freedom House counts it among "partially free" countries, while the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance, an intergovernmental organisation based in Stockholm, places it among the "declining" democracies. In the World Press Freedom Index compiled and published by Reporters Without Borders, India has dropped to 161st place out of 180.Iniquitous laws, often inherited from British occupation, on the offence of sedition or religious conversion are used to silence any dissenting voice. Anyone who is not on Modi's side is automatically considered an enemy of the prime minister, an enemy of Hindus and an enemy of the nation. Renowned political analyst Pratap Bhanu Mehta said as much recently in an interview with The New York Times: Indian democracy is under "very worrying" assault and "a sense of fear" is spreading about "the direction it is taking".1Back on August 5th, 2020, for the laying of the foundation stone of the Ayodhya temple, Narendra Modi was transformed into a high priest, dressed from head to toe in a gold-coloured tunic and draped with a saffron stole, the orange fetish of Hindu nationalists. The date had not been chosen at random. Exactly one year earlier, his government had brutally placed Jammu and Kashmir, the only Muslim-majority state in the Indian Union, under siege, blocking internet access, imprisoning local leaders, abolishing the regional executive and parliament and banning all foreign journalists. A year later, surrounded by priests and ascetics, the Hindu nationalist leader performed a Vedic liturgy, chanting endless mantras before unveiling the foundation stone of the future edifice.On many other occasions, Modi has shamelessly mixed politics and religion. On December 13th, 2021, the member of parliament for Varanasi (formerly Benares), the holy city with its famous funeral pyres where the most fervent believers dream of achieving moksha, the end of the cycles of reincarnation, inaugurated an architectural complex leading to the Ganges by immersing himself in the river, again dressed in saffron, his forehead crossed with the tripundra, three horizontal lines drawn in ashes that symbolise the god Shiva.More recently, on May 28th, 2023, India's strongman took religious symbolism a step further by unveiling the interior of the new parliament building in Delhi. Drawn to the theatre since early childhood, the septuagenarian leader indulged in a totally inappropriate show. He did not see fit to invite the president of the republic, Droupadi Murmu, even though, according to the constitution, parliament is the product of the people and the head of state, however symbolic the latter's role may be. Narendra Modi lay on his stomach in front of around 30 half-naked sadhus, contemplative recluses, before entering the new hemicycle with his face deep in contemplation, carrying a long golden sceptre against his chest, which he religiously placed next to the high chair of the speaker of the house. That day, for all to see, the temple of democracy was converted into a Hindu temple.The monarchical ceremony enabled Modi to appropriate the symbolism of a relic dating back to the Cholas, the Tamil dynasty whose Hindu empire (300 BC-1279) gloriously resisted the Muslim invasions that swept across the north of the subcontinent from the 7th century onwards. It was also used to stage a hoax. According to the prime minister's entourage, the sceptre in question was given to Nehru by the British on the day they left India. Vehemently contested by historians, this account was a means of legitimising an Indian right wing invested with an allegedly divine power. All the better to make people forget its past collaborationist activities with the British crown. In the three decades leading up to 1947, the Hindu Mahasabha (Hindu Grand Assembly), a forerunner of the BJP, had distinguished itself for its involvement in the workings of the occupying power's administration.An outrageous cult of personalityA century later, it is a question of concealing this fact and acquiring new virtue, at a time when the 21st century is shaping up to be "India's century", as Modi is convinced. This is why he worked so hard to ensure that his country took over the rotating presidency of the G20 from Indonesia in 2023, when it should have held it in 2022. It was a ploy designed to make Modi look like one of the world's leading politicians in the run up to the Indian general elections. The pomp with which the leaders of the 20 countries in this club were received at the Delhi summit last September was only matched by the propaganda deployed by the Indian authorities to capitalise on it.Accustomed to an astonishing cult of personality, Modi's face is everywhere: in railway stations and airports, on bags of food rations distributed to the most destitute, on Covid vaccination certificates, in the press to the point of overkill. One figure speaks volumes: his government spends the equivalent of €230,000 a day on buying advertising space in the media. Since the end of December, life-size cardboard cutouts of Narendra Modi have been set up in all railway stations and schools so that Indians, from the youngest to the oldest, can take selfies with him. It is an election stunt, financed with taxpayers' money. For the G20 summit itself, it was impossible take two steps on the capital's streets, or in any of India's major cities, without coming across a giant portrait of the prime minister bearing the logo of the world summit and the slogan chosen for the occasion: "One Earth, One Family, One Future". In other words, the future of the planet will not be played out without India.For the Hindu nationalist leader, the primary goal is to restore the country to the first-rate position it lost because of the Muslims and the British colonists of the East India Company. First-rate, because India invented not only yoga and Ayurvedic medicine, but also, and millennia ago, aviation, cosmetic surgery, in vitro fertilisation and the internet – at least according to several BJP leaders, who spout such nonsense with the utmost seriousness at scientific conferences. If Modi wants to free Indians from the slavery of which he claims they have been victims for 1,200 years, it is because he believes the time has come to heal what the writer Vidiadhar Surajprasad Naipaul (in 1976) called the "wounded civilisation". According to the winner of the 2001 Nobel Prize for Literature, India's decline began in 1565, when the sultanates of the young Mughal Empire brought down Vijayanagar, capital of the last great Hindu empire, now an archaeological site known as Hampi, in Karnataka.This saga, seen as an unmitigated disaster by RSS militants, is analysed as the inescapable culmination of Hindu vanity by Salman Rushdie in his latest novel, Victory City (2023). A native of Bombay, the American-British writer spins a mythical tale of the rise, then decline and fall of Vijayanagar after it became a reactionary dictatorial regime, which the reader might take as an allusion to the current situation in India: "Many people are suffering from this new hard line but they are keeping quiet, because (the king) has created a squadron of henchmen who react harshly to the slightest sign of dissent. There is a hard core, a small group that rules, and most people of a certain age fear it and hate it. Unfortunately, a significant proportion of young people support it, saying that the new 'discipline' is necessary to safeguard their identity."The principles of secularism trampled underfootWhatever the historical interpretation, the erection of the monumental Hindu temple at Ayodhya is presented by the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP), the World Hindu Council, an association linked to the RSS and responsible for the work, as a victim-based interpretation of this distant past. It is intended, it says, to "save the world from Christians and Muslims".2 The consecration of the temple could have passed for a political act like any other had Narendra Modi been inclined, since he came to power ten years ago, to cut the ribbon on a new mosque here, on a new church there. Given India's religious diversity, doesn't the secularism enshrined in the preamble to the Indian constitution establish a secular model in which the state authorises the presence of all faiths in the public arena and ensures each individual can express their beliefs, whatever they may be?Modi, however, has done nothing of the sort. Accused of having allowed anti-Muslim pogroms of an exceptional barbarity to take place in 2002 in his native region of Gujarat, a state bordering Pakistan he had taken charge of a few months earlier (the United States banned him from the country for years over the violence), he has only one idea in mind: to establish the superiority of Hindus over the rest of the population. And to assimilate the Indian nation to Hinduism, seen not as a religion but as a millennia-old culture, a philosophy, a way of life and even, for the most radical, a race. His political family sums up this vision in the term "Hindutva", a concept coined by Vinayak Damodar Savarkar. According to the ideologue to whose ideas the founders of the RSS subscribed, to deserve Indian nationality it is imperative to be Hindu. And a Hindu can only be someone who considers the territory3 of India not only as their homeland, but above all as their holy land.This view effectively relegates to the rank of second-class citizens all those who belong to a religion described as "foreign": Islam and Christianity, of course, as well as Zoroastrianism imported by the Persians, and Judaism, whose representatives are now very few in number in India. In contrast, the BJP regime, which has been in power since May 2014, is much more tolerant of religions closely or distantly linked to Hinduism, because of their indigenous character, like Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. In this respect, the policy pursued by the autocrat Modi is populist, since in the name of a supposed homogeneity of the people, in this case the overwhelming Hindu majority, it fosters popular resentment against real and above all supposed foreigners, in order to promote a policy of exclusion by authoritarian means. Arbitrary arrests of Muslims and Christians, as well as the destruction of their homes and businesses, have become commonplace, generally under the eyes of an impassive police force.This policy, incidentally, confirms the disturbing affinities observed for nearly a century between the Hindu nationalism promoted by the RSS and Zionism, affinities that have been strengthened by the emergence of Islamist movements on a global scale. As the French researcher Christophe Jaffrelot has analysed in a number of recent publications, "majoritarianism", whether Hindu or Jewish, feeds on "ethno-nationalist ideologies that give priority to factors such as race, territory and nativism" and sees the individuals who make up the Muslim minority as "sub-citizens"3.It is no coincidence that Israel, a strategic partner for more than 30 years and a leading arms supplier, has grown considerably closer to India since Narendra Modi took office as prime minister and Benyamin Netanyahu has been in power in Israel. After the Hamas terrorist attack on Israel on October 7th, 2023, the Indian leader drew parallels with the Mumbai attacks and hostage-taking perpetrated by Pakistani Islamists in November 2008. With just a few months to go before the Indian general elections, he has found a fresh opportunity to wave his Islamophobic red rag to rally Hindu voters around him.Emigration on the riseMaintaining the confusion between Islam and terrorism is a tried and tested practice for him. When he was elected Gujarat chief minister in 2002, he referred extensively to the September 11th, 2001, attacks in the United States, as well as the terrorist attack on the Indian parliament in December of the same year. In 2019, when he was up for re-election as prime minister at the end of his first term, he made security the central theme of his campaign in the wake of a terrorist attack on an Indian army convoy in Kashmir, ordering surgical airstrikes on Pakistan in retaliation. This operation won him re-election by a landslide, with a record absolute majority for the BJP: 303 seats out of a total of 543.If Modi can bring the religious question to the fore in 2024, it is because he holds all the power in his hands. In 2014, he masked his intentions to reach the top. With the Hindu nationalists behind him, he preferred to seduce the rest of the electorate, on the sound advice of his communication experts, by promising them "development", in the image of the Gujarat model that he prided himself on having put in place in his home region, after ensuring that he had the employers and a number of prominent billionaires in his pocket.The promise of better days ("achhe din"), of economic growth and its expected benefits, has nevertheless fizzled out. Over the last ten years, India's gross domestic product (GDP) has grown by more than 60%. But in the previous decade, when the Indian National Congress was in power, it grew by nearly 100%. Narendra Modi says he is in charge of "the fifth-largest economy in the world", except that on a per capita basis, the wealth produced is no better than that of Bangladesh or Zimbabwe. Since he took office, public debt has soared to exceed the value of GDP, unemployment has reached record levels (to the extent that the publication of official statistics has been banned), causing more and more young people to flee abroad in search of a good education.Hundreds of thousands of people desperate to find work are also leaving the country, as highlighted by the plane intercepted on French soil before Christmas 2023. The aircraft belonging to the Romanian charter company Legend Airlines, was taking educated Indians, many of them from Gujarat, to Nicaragua, from where they hoped to go to Mexico and then into the United States. In 2023, no fewer than 100,000 Indians attempted to enter the country illegally, compared with 64,000 in 2021 and 20,000 in 2019. Currently, 2 million Indians leave their country every year. And since Narendra Modi came to power, 1.4 million Indian citizens have renounced their nationality.The tragedy of migration comes on top of an unprecedented widening of the gap between rich and poor, with 1% of the Indian population owning three-quarters of the national wealth, while the poorest half owns just 3% of that same wealth. India ranks 132nd in the UN Human Development Index, and according to the World Bank, 30% of its inhabitants live on less than $1.90 a day. When the government renewed the basic food aid programme last year, aimed at families who were not getting enough to eat, it was forced to recognise that there were 800 million beneficiaries. More than one in every two Indians.An openly Islamophobic discourseOne thing is certain: the completion of the Ayodhya temple brings to a close a sequence of three decades of debates, crises and bloody riots between the Hindu majority on the one hand, who make up 80% of the population and who Narendra Modi's BJP needs to turn into a majority at the ballot box, and the Muslim minority on the other, which accounts for "only" 14% but represents 200 million people, the third-largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia and Pakistan. To appreciate the political stakes involved in this Ayodhya affair, one needs to know that the supreme holy city is the birthplace of Rama, the mythical ruler of antiquity who became a deity in the Middle Ages. Rama, whose epic Ramayana recounts the quest for his wife Sita kidnapped by the devil, is as important to Hindus as the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. In the highest echelons of the BJP, it is not uncommon to hear it said that Modi is "the new Rama". As if the prime minister were a living god relegating all the great national figures of the past to insignificance, first and foremost Nehru, whom Modi has vowed to beat in terms of longevity in power (almost 17 years).The commemoration of the return of the royal couple Rama and Sita to the city of Ayodhya, illuminated by millions of candles, gives rise every year to Diwali, the festival of lights considered in northern India to be the Hindu New Year. Diwali is another way of forgetting the era when India was ruled by Muslims, which it was in whole or in part until the 19th century. Ayodhya, an ancient town on the great plain of the Ganges, was chosen by the founder of the Mughal Empire, Zahīr ud-Dīn Muhammad, Babur, to build a mosque at the beginning of his reign. In the 18th century, the building began to cause controversy, with some Hindus claiming that before Babur's mosque a temple dedicated to Rama had stood on that very spot, an assertion that has never been confirmed by any archaeological excavation, or even by his birthplace.In the early 1990s, the leaders of the BJP organised a procession covering several thousand kilometres in the north of the country, from the west coast of Gujarat to Ayodhya, with the aim of rallying crowds around the idea of demolishing the mosque and building a grandiose Hindu temple in its place. The nationalist parade drew in 75,000 volunteers and sparked outbreaks of violence in many places, under the leadership of the party president at the time, Lal Krishna Advani. This unprecedented operation culminated on December 6th, 1992, in dozens of rampaging fanatics climbing the domes of the mosque to demolish it with pickaxes and hammers, triggering a period of riots that left 2,000 people dead, the vast majority of them Muslim, and thousands injured in various parts of India. Behind the scenes, a local BJP boss in his forties with a chubby face and black beard meticulously organised every detail of the procession. His name? Narendra Modi.ReferencesNaipaul, Vidiadhar Surajprasad. India: A Wounded Civilization, V.S. Naipaul, Paperback, 1976. Rushdie, Salman. Victory City, Random House, 2023. Notes:1- "India is transforming. But into what?", Pratap Bhanu Mehta, The New York Times, December 12th, 20232- According to Triloki Nath Pandey, a VHP leader, in an interview with the author in 2019.3- "From Savarkar to Golwalkar, why Hindutva admires Zionism", Christophe Jaffrelot, Kalrav Joshi, The Indian Express, December 7th, 2023 Guillaume Delacroix is co-author with Sophie Landrin of the essay "Dans la tête de Narendra Modi" (Actes Sud, in press)All the publications express the opinions of their individual authors and do not necessarily reflect the views of CIDOB as an institution.DOI: https://doi.org/10.24241/NotesInt.2024/300/en

India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who has been in power for ten years, is seeking a third term in office. His goal is to restore the country to the preeminent position it supposedly lost due to previous Muslim and British rulers.He is kicking off the 2024 election year with the inauguration of the Ayodhya temple intended to liberate Hindus from the alleged enslavement they endured for 1,200 years.His supremacist ideology aims to transform the Hindu majority into an electoral majority. By intertwining politics and religion, it turns Muslims and Christians into aliens worthy only of the status of second-class citizens.Rarely has Hindu nationalist pride been so deeply flattered in India as at the start of 2024. With general elections looming in the South Asian giant – a huge ballot set to stretch over the months of April and May to allow hundreds of millions of voters to go to the polls – Narendra Modi is running for a third five-year term. He aims to make the religious question the common thread running through his campaign. On January 22nd, 2024, before an all-male audience of 8,000 devotees, the head of government of the world's most populous country (1.43 billion inhabitants) led the solemn consecration of the Hindu temple currently under construction in Ayodhya, a holy city located on the Ganges plain. Boycotted by the opposition, this surreal piece of stage management is one of the most significant political events in India's contemporary history since the country gained independence in 1947.This inauguration marks the fulfilment of the Hindu supremacist fantasy formulated almost a century ago by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the association of the nation's volunteers founded in September 1925 in the city of Nagpur, at the exact geographical centre of the Indian subcontinent. The apparatchik Modi, born in 1950, was indoctrinated in the organisation from the age of eight and made his career there, before winning election mandates from the 2000s onwards. As the central core of the Hindu nationalist constellation around which dozens of student, workers' and farmers' organisations, publishing houses and charities orbit, as well as the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), the Indian People's Party – its political showcase –, the RSS considers the Ayodhya temple its ultimate Holy Grail. Narendra Modi made it happen. Ayodhya is becoming what Mecca is to Islam: the holiest place in Hinduism. The prime minister opened an international airport on December 31st, 2023, to draw millions of pilgrims from all over the world. In the eyes of the Indian people, the far-right leader is now either a timeless sage, detached from the material condition, or a fanatical guru.An authoritarian regime with theocratic overtonesNever had an Indian prime minister indulged in such a masquerade, but the West was unmoved. After receiving Narendra Modi in Paris with the greatest possible republican decorum for Bastille Day on July 14th, the French national holiday celebrating the homeland of human rights, Emmanuel Macron was the guest of honour of his Indian "friend" on January 26th, 2024, in Delhi. Initially, Joe Biden was to have been invited to the Republic Day military parade marking the anniversary of the Indian constitution. The US president reluctantly declined to attend in the wake of the recent attempted assassination of an American citizen of Indian origin in New York, an opponent of the Modi regime. Washington accuses the Indian secret service of being behind the attempt on his life.Yet India is well and truly in the process of exiting the democracy camp and sliding into an authoritarian regime with theocratic overtones, and not because prelates are taking the reins of the country – Hinduism has no clergy whatsoever – but because the policies pursued at the top of the state are driven solely by religious considerations, in defiance of the secularist thinking of India's founding fathers, Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru in particular. The current government is at pains to consign them to the dustbin of history, as well as other figures who are less well known in Europe, such as Nehru's right-hand man Vallabhbhai Patel and Babasaheb Ambedkar, the principal drafter of the constitution enacted in 1950.Like Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey, Narendra Modi is striving to merge religion1, nation and leadership, flying in the face of India's secular constitution. Describing India as "the world's largest democracy" no longer makes much sense today. More or less free elections are still held at the national and state levels, there is still a multi-party system and political changeovers occur regularly. But the foundations of democracy and the rule of law that typically accompany that are being eaten away and undermined one after another. The judiciary has been brought to heel, all the way up to its highest level, the Supreme Court. India's election commission, which is supposed to guarantee the pluralism of universal suffrage, has been placed under executive control; as recently as December 2023, the reform of the procedure for appointing its members made them entirely dependent on the government. In ten years, 17,000 international NGOs have been expelled from the country; opponents and what remains of the independent press has been severely repressed, and history has been completely rewritten in school textbooks. Fear reigns everywhere.The latest figures released in 2023 show that the ruling party attracts more than two-thirds of private donations to politics, and in a very opaque way. It has an unrivalled strike force, both human and financial, which it deploys without limit, particularly on social media. The BJP has become a bulldozer against which opposition parties have virtually no resistance in the northern half of the subcontinent, with the notable exception of Punjab state in the west, and Bengal state in the east, the traditional stronghold of Indian communism. Only the southern half of India holds its own, with the BJP proving unable to make inroads in most of the Deccan states, from Kerala to Telangana, taking in Tamil Nadu.Three heavyweight institutions have taken note of India's worrying new situation, downgrading it on the scale of democracies. For the past three years, the Swedish V-Dem Institute at the University of Gothenburg has classified India as an "electoral autocracy", a regime that looks like a democracy but which one by one scuttles all the checks and balances that could safegard the balance of power. The American NGO Freedom House counts it among "partially free" countries, while the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance, an intergovernmental organisation based in Stockholm, places it among the "declining" democracies. In the World Press Freedom Index compiled and published by Reporters Without Borders, India has dropped to 161st place out of 180.Iniquitous laws, often inherited from British occupation, on the offence of sedition or religious conversion are used to silence any dissenting voice. Anyone who is not on Modi's side is automatically considered an enemy of the prime minister, an enemy of Hindus and an enemy of the nation. Renowned political analyst Pratap Bhanu Mehta said as much recently in an interview with The New York Times: Indian democracy is under "very worrying" assault and "a sense of fear" is spreading about "the direction it is taking".1Back on August 5th, 2020, for the laying of the foundation stone of the Ayodhya temple, Narendra Modi was transformed into a high priest, dressed from head to toe in a gold-coloured tunic and draped with a saffron stole, the orange fetish of Hindu nationalists. The date had not been chosen at random. Exactly one year earlier, his government had brutally placed Jammu and Kashmir, the only Muslim-majority state in the Indian Union, under siege, blocking internet access, imprisoning local leaders, abolishing the regional executive and parliament and banning all foreign journalists. A year later, surrounded by priests and ascetics, the Hindu nationalist leader performed a Vedic liturgy, chanting endless mantras before unveiling the foundation stone of the future edifice.On many other occasions, Modi has shamelessly mixed politics and religion. On December 13th, 2021, the member of parliament for Varanasi (formerly Benares), the holy city with its famous funeral pyres where the most fervent believers dream of achieving moksha, the end of the cycles of reincarnation, inaugurated an architectural complex leading to the Ganges by immersing himself in the river, again dressed in saffron, his forehead crossed with the tripundra, three horizontal lines drawn in ashes that symbolise the god Shiva.More recently, on May 28th, 2023, India's strongman took religious symbolism a step further by unveiling the interior of the new parliament building in Delhi. Drawn to the theatre since early childhood, the septuagenarian leader indulged in a totally inappropriate show. He did not see fit to invite the president of the republic, Droupadi Murmu, even though, according to the constitution, parliament is the product of the people and the head of state, however symbolic the latter's role may be. Narendra Modi lay on his stomach in front of around 30 half-naked sadhus, contemplative recluses, before entering the new hemicycle with his face deep in contemplation, carrying a long golden sceptre against his chest, which he religiously placed next to the high chair of the speaker of the house. That day, for all to see, the temple of democracy was converted into a Hindu temple.The monarchical ceremony enabled Modi to appropriate the symbolism of a relic dating back to the Cholas, the Tamil dynasty whose Hindu empire (300 BC-1279) gloriously resisted the Muslim invasions that swept across the north of the subcontinent from the 7th century onwards. It was also used to stage a hoax. According to the prime minister's entourage, the sceptre in question was given to Nehru by the British on the day they left India. Vehemently contested by historians, this account was a means of legitimising an Indian right wing invested with an allegedly divine power. All the better to make people forget its past collaborationist activities with the British crown. In the three decades leading up to 1947, the Hindu Mahasabha (Hindu Grand Assembly), a forerunner of the BJP, had distinguished itself for its involvement in the workings of the occupying power's administration.An outrageous cult of personality A century later, it is a question of concealing this fact and acquiring new virtue, at a time when the 21st century is shaping up to be "India's century", as Modi is convinced. This is why he worked so hard to ensure that his country took over the rotating presidency of the G20 from Indonesia in 2023, when it should have held it in 2022. It was a ploy designed to make Modi look like one of the world's leading politicians in the run up to the Indian general elections. The pomp with which the leaders of the 20 countries in this club were received at the Delhi summit last September was only matched by the propaganda deployed by the Indian authorities to capitalise on it.Accustomed to an astonishing cult of personality, Modi's face is everywhere: in railway stations and airports, on bags of food rations distributed to the most destitute, on Covid vaccination certificates, in the press to the point of overkill. One figure speaks volumes: his government spends the equivalent of €230,000 a day on buying advertising space in the media. Since the end of December, life-size cardboard cutouts of Narendra Modi have been set up in all railway stations and schools so that Indians, from the youngest to the oldest, can take selfies with him. It is an election stunt, financed with taxpayers' money. For the G20 summit itself, it was impossible take two steps on the capital's streets, or in any of India's major cities, without coming across a giant portrait of the prime minister bearing the logo of the world summit and the slogan chosen for the occasion: "One Earth, One Family, One Future". In other words, the future of the planet will not be played out without India.For the Hindu nationalist leader, the primary goal is to restore the country to the first-rate position it lost because of the Muslims and the British colonists of the East India Company. First-rate, because India invented not only yoga and Ayurvedic medicine, but also, and millennia ago, aviation, cosmetic surgery, in vitro fertilisation and the internet – at least according to several BJP leaders, who spout such nonsense with the utmost seriousness at scientific conferences. If Modi wants to free Indians from the slavery of which he claims they have been victims for 1,200 years, it is because he believes the time has come to heal what the writer Vidiadhar Surajprasad Naipaul (in 1976) called the "wounded civilisation". According to the winner of the 2001 Nobel Prize for Literature, India's decline began in 1565, when the sultanates of the young Mughal Empire brought down Vijayanagar, capital of the last great Hindu empire, now an archaeological site known as Hampi, in Karnataka.This saga, seen as an unmitigated disaster by RSS militants, is analysed as the inescapable culmination of Hindu vanity by Salman Rushdie in his latest novel, Victory City (2023). A native of Bombay, the American-British writer spins a mythical tale of the rise, then decline and fall of Vijayanagar after it became a reactionary dictatorial regime, which the reader might take as an allusion to the current situation in India: "Many people are suffering from this new hard line but they are keeping quiet, because (the king) has created a squadron of henchmen who react harshly to the slightest sign of dissent. There is a hard core, a small group that rules, and most people of a certain age fear it and hate it. Unfortunately, a significant proportion of young people support it, saying that the new 'discipline' is necessary to safeguard their identity."The principles of secularism trampled underfootWhatever the historical interpretation, the erection of the monumental Hindu temple at Ayodhya is presented by the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP), the World Hindu Council, an association linked to the RSS and responsible for the work, as a victim-based interpretation of this distant past. It is intended, it says, to "save the world from Christians and Muslims".2 The consecration of the temple could have passed for a political act like any other had Narendra Modi been inclined, since he came to power ten years ago, to cut the ribbon on a new mosque here, on a new church there. Given India's religious diversity, doesn't the secularism enshrined in the preamble to the Indian constitution establish a secular model in which the state authorises the presence of all faiths in the public arena and ensures each individual can express their beliefs, whatever they may be?Modi, however, has done nothing of the sort. Accused of having allowed anti-Muslim pogroms of an exceptional barbarity to take place in 2002 in his native region of Gujarat, a state bordering Pakistan he had taken charge of a few months earlier (the United States banned him from the country for years over the violence), he has only one idea in mind: to establish the superiority of Hindus over the rest of the population. And to assimilate the Indian nation to Hinduism, seen not as a religion but as a millennia-old culture, a philosophy, a way of life and even, for the most radical, a race. His political family sums up this vision in the term "Hindutva", a concept coined by Vinayak Damodar Savarkar. According to the ideologue to whose ideas the founders of the RSS subscribed, to deserve Indian nationality it is imperative to be Hindu. And a Hindu can only be someone who considers the territory3 of India not only as their homeland, but above all as their holy land.This view effectively relegates to the rank of second-class citizens all those who belong to a religion described as "foreign": Islam and Christianity, of course, as well as Zoroastrianism imported by the Persians, and Judaism, whose representatives are now very few in number in India. In contrast, the BJP regime, which has been in power since May 2014, is much more tolerant of religions closely or distantly linked to Hinduism, because of their indigenous character, like Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. In this respect, the policy pursued by the autocrat Modi is populist, since in the name of a supposed homogeneity of the people, in this case the overwhelming Hindu majority, it fosters popular resentment against real and above all supposed foreigners, in order to promote a policy of exclusion by authoritarian means. Arbitrary arrests of Muslims and Christians, as well as the destruction of their homes and businesses, have become commonplace, generally under the eyes of an impassive police force.This policy, incidentally, confirms the disturbing affinities observed for nearly a century between the Hindu nationalism promoted by the RSS and Zionism, affinities that have been strengthened by the emergence of Islamist movements on a global scale. As the French researcher Christophe Jaffrelot has analysed in a number of recent publications, "majoritarianism", whether Hindu or Jewish, feeds on "ethno-nationalist ideologies that give priority to factors such as race, territory and nativism" and sees the individuals who make up the Muslim minority as "sub-citizens"3.It is no coincidence that Israel, a strategic partner for more than 30 years and a leading arms supplier, has grown considerably closer to India since Narendra Modi took office as prime minister and Benyamin Netanyahu has been in power in Israel. After the Hamas terrorist attack on Israel on October 7th, 2023, the Indian leader drew parallels with the Mumbai attacks and hostage-taking perpetrated by Pakistani Islamists in November 2008. With just a few months to go before the Indian general elections, he has found a fresh opportunity to wave his Islamophobic red rag to rally Hindu voters around him.Emigration on the riseMaintaining the confusion between Islam and terrorism is a tried and tested practice for him. When he was elected Gujarat chief minister in 2002, he referred extensively to the September 11th, 2001, attacks in the United States, as well as the terrorist attack on the Indian parliament in December of the same year. In 2019, when he was up for re-election as prime minister at the end of his first term, he made security the central theme of his campaign in the wake of a terrorist attack on an Indian army convoy in Kashmir, ordering surgical airstrikes on Pakistan in retaliation. This operation won him re-election by a landslide, with a record absolute majority for the BJP: 303 seats out of a total of 543.If Modi can bring the religious question to the fore in 2024, it is because he holds all the power in his hands. In 2014, he masked his intentions to reach the top. With the Hindu nationalists behind him, he preferred to seduce the rest of the electorate, on the sound advice of his communication experts, by promising them "development", in the image of the Gujarat model that he prided himself on having put in place in his home region, after ensuring that he had the employers and a number of prominent billionaires in his pocket.The promise of better days ("achhe din"), of economic growth and its expected benefits, has nevertheless fizzled out. Over the last ten years, India's gross domestic product (GDP) has grown by more than 60%. But in the previous decade, when the Indian National Congress was in power, it grew by nearly 100%. Narendra Modi says he is in charge of "the fifth-largest economy in the world", except that on a per capita basis, the wealth produced is no better than that of Bangladesh or Zimbabwe. Since he took office, public debt has soared to exceed the value of GDP, unemployment has reached record levels (to the extent that the publication of official statistics has been banned), causing more and more young people to flee abroad in search of a good education.Hundreds of thousands of people desperate to find work are also leaving the country, as highlighted by the plane intercepted on French soil before Christmas 2023. The aircraft belonging to the Romanian charter company Legend Airlines, was taking educated Indians, many of them from Gujarat, to Nicaragua, from where they hoped to go to Mexico and then into the United States. In 2023, no fewer than 100,000 Indians attempted to enter the country illegally, compared with 64,000 in 2021 and 20,000 in 2019. Currently, 2 million Indians leave their country every year. And since Narendra Modi came to power, 1.4 million Indian citizens have renounced their nationality.The tragedy of migration comes on top of an unprecedented widening of the gap between rich and poor, with 1% of the Indian population owning three-quarters of the national wealth, while the poorest half owns just 3% of that same wealth. India ranks 132nd in the UN Human Development Index, and according to the World Bank, 30% of its inhabitants live on less than $1.90 a day. When the government renewed the basic food aid programme last year, aimed at families who were not getting enough to eat, it was forced to recognise that there were 800 million beneficiaries. More than one in every two Indians.An openly Islamophobic discourseOne thing is certain: the completion of the Ayodhya temple brings to a close a sequence of three decades of debates, crises and bloody riots between the Hindu majority on the one hand, who make up 80% of the population and who Narendra Modi's BJP needs to turn into a majority at the ballot box, and the Muslim minority on the other, which accounts for "only" 14% but represents 200 million people, the third-largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia and Pakistan. To appreciate the political stakes involved in this Ayodhya affair, one needs to know that the supreme holy city is the birthplace of Rama, the mythical ruler of antiquity who became a deity in the Middle Ages. Rama, whose epic Ramayana recounts the quest for his wife Sita kidnapped by the devil, is as important to Hindus as the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. In the highest echelons of the BJP, it is not uncommon to hear it said that Modi is "the new Rama". As if the prime minister were a living god relegating all the great national figures of the past to insignificance, first and foremost Nehru, whom Modi has vowed to beat in terms of longevity in power (almost 17 years).The commemoration of the return of the royal couple Rama and Sita to the city of Ayodhya, illuminated by millions of candles, gives rise every year to Diwali, the festival of lights considered in northern India to be the Hindu New Year. Diwali is another way of forgetting the era when India was ruled by Muslims, which it was in whole or in part until the 19th century. Ayodhya, an ancient town on the great plain of the Ganges, was chosen by the founder of the Mughal Empire, Zahīr ud-Dīn Muhammad, Babur, to build a mosque at the beginning of his reign. In the 18th century, the building began to cause controversy, with some Hindus claiming that before Babur's mosque a temple dedicated to Rama had stood on that very spot, an assertion that has never been confirmed by any archaeological excavation, or even by his birthplace.In the early 1990s, the leaders of the BJP organised a procession covering several thousand kilometres in the north of the country, from the west coast of Gujarat to Ayodhya, with the aim of rallying crowds around the idea of demolishing the mosque and building a grandiose Hindu temple in its place. The nationalist parade drew in 75,000 volunteers and sparked outbreaks of violence in many places, under the leadership of the party president at the time, Lal Krishna Advani. This unprecedented operation culminated on December 6th, 1992, in dozens of rampaging fanatics climbing the domes of the mosque to demolish it with pickaxes and hammers, triggering a period of riots that left 2,000 people dead, the vast majority of them Muslim, and thousands injured in various parts of India. Behind the scenes, a local BJP boss in his forties with a chubby face and black beard meticulously organised every detail of the procession. His name? Narendra Modi.ReferencesNaipaul, Vidiadhar Surajprasad. India: A Wounded Civilization, V.S. Naipaul, Paperback, 1976. Rushdie, Salman. Victory City, Random House, 2023. Notes:1- "India is transforming. But into what?", Pratap Bhanu Mehta, The New York Times, December 12th, 20232- According to Triloki Nath Pandey, a VHP leader, in an interview with the author in 2019.3- "From Savarkar to Golwalkar, why Hindutva admires Zionism", Christophe Jaffrelot, Kalrav Joshi, The Indian Express, December 7th, 2023*Guillaume Delacroix is co-author with Sophie Landrin of the essay "Dans la tête de Narendra Modi" (Actes Sud, in press)All the publications express the opinions of their individual authors and do not necessarily reflect the views of CIDOB as an institution.DOI: https://doi.org/10.24241/NotesInt.2024/300/en

The impact of infectious diseases on populations all over the world has long been recognized as an imminent global crisis.[1]The 21st century has seen an increase in outbreaks of emerging infectious diseases ("EIDs"), which threaten the health and safety of citizens all over the globe.[2]EIDs are diseases that have "recently appeared in a population or have already existed but are rapidly increasing in incidence or geographic range,"[3]which explains the widespread fear such disease outbreaks can incite. However, despite how many times EID outbreaks have made global news headlines in contemporary history, the international community has struggled to adequately respond, leaving vulnerable populations at risk. Many factors contribute to the disproportionate impact of EIDs on vulnerable populations, including those stemming from disparities regarding poverty and gender. Socioeconomic status influences health, to the point where "poverty breeds disease and ill health leads to poverty."[4]Data on gender differences in infectious disease outbreaks also show that disease does not affect everyone equally.[5]Although both men and women suffer from different diseases due to biological inequalities and social differences,[6]women are particularly vulnerable due to the lack of attention and integration of women in global health policies and management strategies of EID outbreaks. One case study that demonstrates the disparate impact on vulnerable populations during EID outbreaks is the current Ebola Virus Disease ("EVD") outbreak in the eastern region of the Democratic Republic of the Congo ("DRC"). This outbreak began in August 2018 and has grown to become the second largest EVD outbreak on record.[7]As observed in the 2014–2016 West African EVD outbreak and other large-scale EID outbreaks such as Zika or SARS,[8]the 2018 Eastern DRC EVD outbreak has had a significant impact on women. While research has been conducted on "diseases of poverty" and the vulnerability of women in EID outbreaks, the preference to deal with the immediate outbreak instead of addressing more systemic societal concerns forgoes the focus on the individual and their human rights. As a result, little has been done to bring in a human rights perspective to the management and response mechanisms of such outbreaks. A human rights perspective not only brings to the forefront these core issues of inequality, but also introduces supplemental and useful tools for considering how to achieve the most effective response to these emergencies. The first section of this paper provides an important background to the relationship between poverty, women, and EIDs by considering both legal and public health perspectives. The second section analyzes the role of women in global health, particularly in responses to EIDs, by examining how women have been impacted in past EID outbreaks and the current 2018 Eastern DRC EVD outbreak as a case study. Finally, this paper concludes with a discussion of how global health policymakers and healthcare professionals can address this gap by applying a gendered lens to EID outbreak management. Background The human right to health as a foundation for addressing inequality in poverty and gender As human rights have developed throughout history, the issue of health has consistently been regarded as a core, fundamental human right.[9]Beginning with the United Nations ("UN") Charter (1945), this emphasized the need for international cooperation in Chapter IX, particularly for finding solutions to health problems.[10]In 1946, the World Health Organization ("WHO") Constitution declared that the objective of the WHO is the "attainment by all peoples of the highest possible level of health."[11]In 1948, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ("UDHR") referenced this same objective for health in Article 25(1): "everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health of himself and his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care, and necessary social services . . . ."[12]In 1966, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights ("ICESCR") stated in Article 12: "The States Parties . . . recognize the right of everyone to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health"[13]and to achieve this, highlighted the "prevention, treatment and control of epidemic, endemic, occupational and other diseases"[14]as a vital prerequisite for success. The drafting history of this provision demonstrates that the object and purpose of this provision was to obligate States to address the prevention of disease and malnutrition, two major factors which pose obstacles for achieving health for all.[15]Additionally, the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights ("CESCR") General Comment 14 further explained ICESCR Article 12(2)(c), stating that "The right to treatment includes the creation of a system of urgent medical care in cases of accidents, epidemics and similar health hazards, and the provision of disaster relief and humanitarian assistance in emergency situations"[16]and "[t]he control of diseases refers to States' individual and joint efforts to . . . make available relevant technologies, using and improving epidemiological surveillance and data collection on a disaggregated basis, the implementation or enhancement of immunization programmes and other strategies of infectious disease control."[17]With these core international instruments, basic standards of health, treatment, and particularly disease management all set the stage for a baseline of States' obligations to respect, protect, and fulfill the right to health. Currently, the Sustainable Development Goals ("SDG") also highlight the right to health. In SDG 3.3, States' target to end "the epidemics of AIDS, tuberculosis, malaria and neglected tropical diseases . . . ."[18]is particularly relevant because neglected tropical diseases ("NTDs") are a subset of EIDs and mainly affect the poorest populations in the world.[19]SDG 3.c to "substantially increase health financing and the recruitment, development, training and retention of the health workforce in developing countries, especially in least developed countries . ." and 3.d to "strengthen the capacity of all countries, in particular developing countries, for early warning, risk reduction and management of national and global health risks"[20]are both also important goals for addressing the disproportionate disease burden on States that currently lack the capacity to respond to health crises such as EIDs. These goals, voluntarily assumed by States, continue to build upon the human rights foundation of the right to health and further solidify the importance of addressing health through a human rights framework. Just as the right to health has been established through international treaties, women's rights have also been protected through Article 12 of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women ("CEDAW"), which "obligates States Parties to eliminate discrimination against women in the field of health care and to ensure women access to appropriate services in connection with pregnancy."[21]Like the CESCR, the CEDAW Committee further explained the importance of protections for women's health through its General Recommendation regarding CEDAW Article 12, stating that the "duty of States parties to ensure . . . access to health care services, information and education implies an obligation to respect, protect and fulfill women's rights to health care."[22]Additionally, another CESCR General Comment addresses women's health in particular by articulating "State obligations as including identifying how gender roles affect health and removing legal restrictions on reproductive health, among other things."[23]These international treaty provisions demonstrate the importance of protecting the right to health especially as it applies to women. Poverty as a determining factor of health outcomes in EIDs Poverty is a main determining factor of EIDs in communities[24]because "poor health and poverty are intertwined in developing countries. Poverty breeds disease and ill health leads to poverty."[25]With almost 900 million people living in extreme poverty[26]across the globe, understanding how poverty and disease are related is urgent.[27]Poverty is an important factor which contributes to more opportunities for infectious diseases to impact humans.[28]NTDs are a subset of EIDs which particularly thrive and persist under conditions of poverty.[29]One disease example is tuberculosis ("TB"), which is often described as a "disease of poverty" because it is "significantly associated with poor housing, low literacy and nutritional status, and lack of access to health services."[30]NTDs are often called infectious diseases of poverty and are the result of the "complex interaction of biological, social, and environmental factors [because they] disproportionately affect poor and disadvantaged populations in which the poverty context reinforces risk and vulnerability."[31]This is compounded by the fact that disease "control tools such as drugs, vaccines, and diagnostics often do not reach the populations that most need them because of social issues . or because they are ill adapted to the cultural, social, and economic realities in which people live."[32] Another connection between poverty and disease is that since EID outbreaks such as the 2014–2016 West African EVD outbreak, the 2015–2016 Zika outbreak, and the current 2018 Eastern DRC EVD outbreak can have a very significant impact on a community, they can essentially reach the level of a crisis or disaster. When disasters hit, people living in poverty are much more vulnerable.[33]On top of this, women make up approximately 70% of people living in poverty worldwide, so this indicates that overall, women are more likely to be affected by disasters in poverty-stricken areas.[34] Gender as a determining factor of health outcomes in EIDs Another key determinant of health is gender.[35]The term "gender" refers to societal and cultural factors that are different between traditional male and female roles.[36]Studies on the relationships between sex and gender to infectious diseases have been conducted across a variety of disciplines, which has actually acted as a barrier to application of this research in outbreak settings because each discipline tends to work in isolation.[37]Thus, to fill this gap, it is important to integrate a gendered lens into outbreak response and management. Disease does not affect men and women equally.[38]Women are a particularly vulnerable group because they "disproportionately bear the burden of poverty and disease."[39]Thus, vulnerability is deeply gendered.[40]Not only do over 80% of women in the world live in low- or middle-income countries,[41]putting them at higher risk for more EIDs, women also live longer in general. Over a lifetime, the "social context of women's lives place exceptional burdens on the quality of life lived." Understanding the pre-existing biological and socio-cultural conditions in which women live is an important foundation for understanding their vulnerability in crises and disasters. Risks related to health concerns from cooking fumes in the home and complications with pregnancy "overlap with developing countries and are exacerbated in the contexts of poverty combined with conflict . [and] such risks are further aggravated in situations of humanitarian crisis."[42] State and international core obligations to protect health for all Although there are international instruments protecting health, given the vulnerabilities of those living in poverty, especially women, it is not surprising that many States lack the capacity to "progressively realize and ensure that a minimum core of a properly functioning health system and infrastructure . exists for people to gain access to health services."[43]While States are required to "take all appropriate measures subject to available resources,"[44]to prevent diseases, the States that experience the most NTDs "are least able to counter the existing imbalance in disease prevention research and development."[45]The lack of capacity in many States in the Global South has been attributed to "historical vulnerability from slavery, colonialism, neocolonialism, bad governance, and neoliberal reform policies like structural adjustment."[46]In addition to States' obligations, there is also an "obligation of international co-operation under the right to health."[47]If a State lacks capacity, the international community is called upon to address this problem via a 'collective responsibility.'[48]The ICESCR addressed collective responsibility, stating that States should realize the rights in the Covenant "individually and through international assistance and co-operation, especially economic and technical."[49] Case study on the 2018 DRC EVD outbreak The most recent EVD outbreak began in August 2018 in the eastern region of the DRC, originally concentrated in North Kivu and Ituri provinces.[50]It has since grown to be the second largest EVD outbreak on record, the largest being the 2014–2016 West African EVD outbreak.[51]Although this is the tenth EVD outbreak to take place in the DRC, there are many factors which differentiate this outbreak from those in the past.[52] First, past outbreaks in the DRC have not been concentrated in the eastern region of the DRC. This region has been a conflict zone for decades and violence continues today.[53]Compared to the 2014–2016 West African EVD outbreak, North Kivu province houses an even denser population than Guinea, Liberia, and Sierra Leone combined, and also shares borders with four more provinces and two other countries.[54]This subregion of the DRC has a history of insecurity and presence of well over one hundred active non-state armed groups,[55]which still remain in the region after conflicts such as the DRC independence in 1960, the bordering 1994 Rwandan genocide, and the civil war that established the regime of recent President Joseph Kabila.[56] In the broader context, the history of the DRC has not provided a backdrop conducive to effective management of deadly EIDs. Centuries of colonialism led to decades of armed conflict, which continues today and has spread deep-rooted mistrust for the government across the country, especially in the Eastern DRC.[57]The DRC is also one of the three poorest countries in the world, despite its rich natural resources, so while colonialization may no longer be an issue, there is still an ongoing presence of exploitation.[58]These elements all contribute to the context in which the current 2018 Eastern DRC EVD outbreak is taking place, which is important to understand for the purposes of analyzing the impact of EIDs on women in poverty. Women play an integral role in global health and applying a gendered lens in all levels of EID responses provides better protections for women and more effective management strategies of EID outbreaks The role of women in global health Informal caregivers The 2014–2016 West African EVD outbreak began in December 2013, but in just eight months, data reported that "55-60% of all Ebola fatalities in Guinea, Liberia, and Sierra Leone were women."[59]Additionally, news headlines asking "Why Are So Many Women Dying from Ebola?" revealed that "women in Ebola-hit countries do not enjoy the promise of equality called for under human rights law."[60]Since increased risk in transmitting EVD comes from basic day-to-day interactions, traditional gender roles put women in especially vulnerable positions.[61] One role that women in many societies fill is that of the caregiver in the home. This societal expectation for women to care for the family greatly contributes to the disproportionate impact that EIDs such as EVD and HIV have on women.[62]For especially fatal diseases such as EVD, women are not only caring for more individuals, but the work is also laborious and dangerous because the disease is spread through direct contact with bodily fluids.[63]This is a particular challenge because often the intensity of the care given at home is equal to that given at a health care facility, yet not all women are formally trained health care professionals.[64]There is a gap in education and important information for women as informal caregivers, which further perpetuates the disparate impact of EIDs on women. As caregivers and due to traditional gender roles, women are also often heavily involved in the mourning and burial rituals once their loved ones have died and they are the "ones to perform funeral rites such as washing bodies and preparing them for burial."[65]During the 2014–2016 West African EVD outbreak, one area of Sierra Leone reported that as many as 365 deaths were connected to one funeral, and when the outbreak first began in Guinea, approximately 60% of all EVD cases were connected to traditional burial practices.[66]Since EVD is still transmissible after death and women play such a prominent role in these rituals, their gender role as caregiver and mourner puts them at a disproportionately higher risk of infection.[67] Additionally, while women in many societies are seen as the primary caregivers in the household, when they fall ill the roles are not reversed. Instead of the men taking care of the women, other women in the community are responsible for caring for each other.[68]This is partially due to socio-cultural aspects of what are appropriate roles for men and women, and also contributes to women being more vulnerable to EIDs. Nevertheless, while the role of women as caregivers is clear, in past EVD outbreaks it is shown that "men dominated informational meetings on the disease,"[69]leaving out the key voice of women and putting them in a vulnerable place without adequate information or agency to voice their concerns during these discussions. Health workers The healthcare workforce is also a vulnerable population during EID outbreaks due to the nature in which the disease is spread, such as EVD. Since EVD is spread through contact with bodily fluids once the patient has started to show symptoms and even after death during burial, the level of close contact that healthcare workers have to infected patients puts them higher risk of transmission. Healthcare workers are between 21 to 32 times more likely to be infected with EVD than the general adult population during an outbreak.[70]Especially in countries where the healthcare workforce is already scarce (i.e. West African countries during the 2014–2016 West African EVD outbreak), losing healthcare workers to EVD is especially challenging for effective management of the outbreak.[71] While men often perform higher-level healthcare positions such as doctors due to gendered differences in education levels, women also play a very important role in the healthcare workforce. In almost all countries, the nursing staff is predominately female, and nurses make up a considerable amount of the healthcare workforce.[72]For example, during the 2014–2016 EVD outbreak in Sierra Leone, 70% of the healthcare workers were nurses and midwives.[73]The work conducted by nurses differs from doctors because nurses are often the healthcare workers who are in direct contact with the most patients, making them more vulnerable to contracting diseases.[74]The WHO reports that "nurses and nurse aids account for more than half of all health worker infections."[75]As a result, since nurses are overwhelmingly female and the duties of nurses put them at higher risks of contracting diseases, "the occupational exposure of nurses can be considered a gender related exposure."[76] Another important consideration related to the high infection rates of healthcare workers is that a decrease in healthcare workers also results in a decrease in availability of health care services for women.[77]This is especially significant in States that already lack adequate health infrastructure and resources. Because women already experience many health inequalities, disasters such as EID outbreaks only exacerbate them further.[78]Especially given the specific provisions under international law to protect women's health, the lack of available health care services for women due to a decrease in healthcare workers is a serious concern. Global health security requires a gendered lens to adequately address the disparate impact of EIDs on women Global health security recently emerged in the 21st century. It expands upon the definition of public health security[79]and also includes "the health consequences of human behavior, weather-related events and infectious diseases, and natural catastrophes and man-made disasters . . . ."[80]Also, "public health emergency preparedness" brings in an additional legal aspect, in both a proactive and reactive manner to best prepare and respond to such emergencies.[81] Because women play such an integral role in global health and are greatly and differentially impacted by EIDs, it is important to consider these issues with a gendered lens. The CESCR recognized this by recommending that States "integrate a gender perspective in their health-related policies, planning, programmes and research in order to promote better health for both women and men [because] a gender-based approach recognizes that biological and sociocultural factors play a significant role in influencing the health of men and women."[82]Thus, women are a key voice that should be "included at all levels of planning and operations to ensure the effectiveness and appropriateness of a response."[83] However, though these recommendations have been made by many international actors, little has been done to integrate women into global health security responses. During the 2014–2016 West African EVD outbreak, women were "invisible" at every point of international response.[84]It is clear how women are closely intertwined in EID responses, "yet they are invisible in global health strategy, policy or practice . [and] only made visible through motherhood."[85]When it comes to addressing gender during a disaster such as an EID outbreak like EVD, the tendency is to focus on "Ebola first, gender later," as if gender concerns are an optional add-on that others can address after the outbreak has ended.[86] However, not only do women play important roles in global health security, but particularly in societies like the DRC's North Kivu province, women are often leaders and heads of households. They are not only responsible for caring for their families, but their position gives them social power as well, and they care for entire communities.[87]This is especially important for EIDs like EVD because community fear and distrust of governmental and international actors in recent outbreaks have greatly complicated the EVD management response. In just seven months after the start of the 2018 Eastern DRC outbreak, studies reported "low levels of trust in government institutions and widespread belief in misinformation about EVD,"[88]which has led to "reduced adherence to EVD preventative behaviors" such as vaccinations.[89]To combat these challenges, it is vital to build up community trust by "engaging locally trusted leaders and service providers . . . to build trust with Ebola responders who are not from these communities."[90] One example of how the WHO has tapped into women as a resource[91]to address this is through a partnership with Mama Mwatatu, a woman so well known in her community in North Kivu she earned the nickname "Mother Counsellor of Beni."[92]Listeners of her radio show are mostly female, so the impact she has had on the EVD management efforts in Beni has been significant.[93]On her broadcast, she answers her listeners' questions about EVD, emphasizing the reality of the disease. If she is unable to answer a question, she "carefully notes it down and consults with WHO experts,"[94]thus forming an invaluable partnership between the WHO and the local female community. Julienne Anoko, a social anthropologist for the WHO has also proven the power of women by collaborating with the Collectif des Associations Feminines to educate 132 women leaders about EVD and send them out to their local communities to conduct a two-week information campaign, explaining EVD vaccines, treatment, contract tracing, and the vulnerability of women and children to EVD, ultimately reaching over 600,000 people that would not have otherwise been reached due to fear and stigma.[95]These are just a few examples of ways in which women can contribute to the management of an EID outbreak. They are a key connection to the local population, and at a time when trust of authority figures is low and belief in misinformation is high, it is vital to reach all corners of affected communities. Conclusion Gender might not be the first element global health policymakers and healthcare professionals responding to an EID consider, but it should be. Applying a gendered lens to EID outbreaks reveals the disproportionate impact of EIDs on women, due to their higher rate of living in poverty and susceptibility to disease as a result of gendered roles in many societies. Women's rights in health have been codified in many provisions in international law, but the connection between gender and EID response has not yet been developed. Due to women's heightened susceptibility and integrated role in EID management, empowering women to do global health work in their communities and supporting them is an extremely effective way to combat not just this current EVD outbreak, but to strengthen global health security as a whole.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with Dr. Frank K. Bartlett. Dr. Bartlett discusses 50 years of medical practice in Ogden, including practice during the Depression and starting the first laboratory in the basement of the Dee Hospital. He also talks about the stock market before, during, and after the Depression, and building a house during those years. ; 16p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Dr. Frank K. Bartlett Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Dr. Frank K. Bartlett Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Bartlett, Dr. Frank K., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Frank K. Bartlett. Dr. Bartlett discusses 50 years of medical practice in Ogden, including practice during the Depression and starting the first laboratory in the basement of the Dee Hospital. He also talks about the stock market before, during, and after the Depression, and building a house during those years. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Where did you live during the Depression years? FB: In Ogden. MT: And what was your profession? FB: I was a physician. I was a physician here for fifty years, from 1915 until I quit. I'm now eighty-four. MT: What do you remember about the Depression years that might set them apart from other years? FB: Well, I was a comparatively young man. I had been in practice for fifteen or eighteen years. I had been in the war, the First World War, in France for a year and a half and come back. I didn't have any money to speak of. What money we had in those days, we didn't invest in the stocks because the stock market wasn't very popular with people at all. But we almost invariably invested in bonds, 3 percent or 3½ percent bonds, buying them at $100. When they'd go up to $102, we'd sell them. There was no income tax to pay, and so we just kept that $200 or $300 we made as pure gold. But then along in the early 1920s, people began to invest in the stock market. I remember that distinctly, and I would put some money in Continental Oil, or New Jersey, or something like that. The oils were just coming into their own and they were doing well. Westinghouse, I remember, 2 it was selling around $100. It went down to $17. Gosh, we were just about broke. Everybody's investments in the stock market went down to just about nothing. You know, it hit us in two big waves, if you remember. It piled down, and they said, "Well, it won't go any further." And then it was down again as far. And so people were very, very skeptical about stocks. There were some good buys if you had the money, but you couldn't get the money. Even government bonds were way down under $65. I remember Gus Becker over here, who was a beer maker. He was buying government bonds at $65, 3 percent bonds, or 4 percent bonds, and they would come back if anything would. I had a little money in the bank that I had saved. There wasn't a house being built in Ogden at that time, not one house. The architects were starving, the contractors, bricklayers, plasterers, carpenters. There wasn't a house going up. I bought this lot up here from Kelly Goddard for $2,500. It was paved. It had the sewer into it, and water into it, and I bought it from him for $2,500 and built this nice home here for practically nothing. In fact, I think I paid for this home - McClanahan was the architect - and this was the only house going up in Ogden. I think he was glad to get it and a chance to make a little money. He charged me $1,000, and you see that it's a nice home. You know what it cost me to build it? You couldn't build it for $75,000 or much under $100,000 today. It cost me $17,000 to build this home. Everybody wanted to dig the basement. Everybody wanted to plaster. I carpeted the whole house - and here's the same carpet that I put in over 40 years ago - for $1,000, the whole house. I showed you how things had depreciated in 3 value. Nobody was selling anything. Nobody was doing any business at all because, as I say, all the value of your equities in business and industry just simply dropped to nothing. I'm not sure, but during the Hoover administration, or following the Hoover administration, when we hit bottom - and there was no better president, no more honest president than he was that ever lived - but it wasn't that. The opposite party, the Democrats, blamed it onto Hoover. But it was a worldwide Depression, not only here, and I think I have a book on the stocks that I had at that time just to show you how things dropped down. Anaconda Copper dropped from the $50's down to $3, and Westinghouse from $100 down to $17. You can see [how] a man's worth was sliced to practically nothing. We were even afraid to keep our money in the banks. And you couldn't borrow money; you couldn't get it. The banks wouldn't loan it. People were taking their money out of the banks for fear that they would go broke. As far as industry was concerned in this town, this was the only house being built in Ogden in 1931 - the only one. Now look at them, hundreds and hundreds of them because Ogden is just beginning to expand. The railroads at that time carried passengers more than they do now, and passengers were a big part of their revenue. Trains were elaborate. People who were traveling wore great big diamonds, and the service on the trains was immaculate and luxurious just as it is in Africa today on the train that goes from Kimberly to Cape Town. I was on that a few years ago, and that train reminded me of the trains that we had here a few years ago. It was just beautiful and elaborate, with every convenience that you wanted and the finest food and 4 waiters and all the rest. But now you go in the depot, and it's flea-bitten, dirty, unoccupied, and all business is in freight. And they're getting rid of a lot of their tracks to sell them into iron mills, steel mills. But there was a time when Ogden's depot was a bustling place, and people were going in and out, and that was during that time. Red-caps by the dozen. Now, as far as the medical business was concerned, people were sick then just like they are now, and we had to take care of them. And I did. I was a young man, anxious to build up my business. And if anyone called me at three in the morning, if he lived across the tracks, I went. Whether I got my money or not. A lot of people I didn't get anything from because they didn't have it, but that didn't make a difference. But you won't get a doctor now to go out at three in the morning. He'd say, "Get him to the hospital. I'll see him in the morning." It's a different attitude entirely. Since the government has interfered so much in the practice of medicine, we have had a great change in the attitude of the doctors toward their practice. It was a doctor-patient relationship all up until the last ten years. Since then it's gradually been a function of the government to take care of everybody's illness almost. If you don't have any money, you don't have to pay anything. But not then. MT: What were some of the major problems that you had in your business at that time, Doctor? FB: Well, medicine is always the same. I had an office in the old First National Bank, where the ZCMI building is at present. It was an awful, old, rundown building when I was in it. But I went into practice with our old family doctor, who was a 5 homeopath. They believed in practicing medicine by giving little tiny pills about as big as a pinhead. If you had a fever, you got achinaide [sic]. It helped to knock the fever down. It didn't have any effect on the illness itself. In fact, in the days when I came to Ogden, there were no antibiotics at all. I discovered an epidemic of typhoid in Ogden, in about 1917, before I went into the First World War. I think that was the year I went to France. I found a case in west Ogden, and it looked to me like it was typhoid. He had rose spots on the belly and a big spleen, and the fellow was running a fever and diarrhea. He had all the symptoms of typhoid although I had never seen one before. It was following the severe rain that we had, and people were going up into the Coldwater Canyon - we got some of our city water from Coldwater Canyon - and it wasn't protected against people defecating around the streams, you know the watershed. It got in our watershed. Before we got through, there were seventeen cases of typhoid in Ogden after I had reported this to the Health Department. Well, we had to take care of people then just like we do now except that there was a more personal relationship between the patient and the doctor. You went out to his home. Babies we delivered for $25, and we included the pre-birth care and usually two or three house calls after. But now it's $200 for a woman to have the baby, and then she usually has to be in the hospital. So the practice of medicine was very primitive. As I say, we had no antibiotics. I remember so many cases of healthy men, as healthy as you are sitting right there. A pain in their sides come on, which meant, of course, the pneumonia extending out into their pleura. And in two days, they would be dead. And so medicine was tough, and 6 you had to pay pretty good attention to your early colds. Now, it doesn't make any difference. Mastoids were plentiful. Many people were operated on for mastoids on the face and middle ear. You very seldom ever see a mastoid any more. The drugs kill the bug. But the new things, you have the viruses now prevailing, and there is nothing known right now to stop a virus infection so far, no medicine at all. MT: Did you have more difficulty collecting your fees during the Depression than other times? FB: Oh, sure. There were so many people out of work. As I say, when I was building this house, I was met on every corner by some fellow - contractor wanted to shingle the house, another wanted to dig the basement, and another one wanted to lay the brick. They were all out of work, and had been out of work for a couple of years. This Depression didn't cease for two years, didn't begin to recover, and. MT: What was your reaction during the stock crash? Did you hang on tight to what you had, or what did you do? FB: You couldn't sell them because you'd practically give them away if you did. I say I paid $20 something for Anaconda, and when it got down to the bottom, it was $3, and you couldn't sell it for that loss. Westinghouse was $100 down to $17. I just happen to remember those two, but I didn't have very much in the stock market. I was soon back from the World War, and when I was over there, I didn't think for a minute that the franc - which was equivalent to our dollar - would ever be down. It was silver, but before long, the francs were selling down for three or four 7 pennies. And the marc, the German marc, we thought surely if you bought them for practically nothing, you could put them on your wall for wallpaper, it was that cheap. I bought quite a few of those. I was young and inexperienced, of course, and foolish. Before long, I had a lot of worthless marcs on my hands. I didn't keep them. It would have been interesting to have kept them just to look at them. But I think I have a book of the stocks that I had at that time, but I have most of these even now. MT: Then you had your stock outright, rather than having bought it on the margin? FB: That's right. I wouldn't buy anything on the margin. If I had the money, I bought it. That's why I built this house. I had the $12,000 in the bank, cash, and with it, along with what I could earn in the next year or two, I paid for it, the whole thing. But just the carpets alone, which you couldn't replace today for $5,000, I bought for $1,000 over the whole house. It goes to show you the difference in the price, that the dollar has slipped. MT: It also shows me what you can do when you are prepared. If you have the money and things are down, then you can take advantage of the situation. FB: You would take advantage of the situation, you would, anybody would. I know of patients that stayed with me all my life. I didn't charge them anything; they didn't have it. I carried them, or I put it down so low that they could just sneeze at it. We had to do that. Every doctor had to do that. And the rooms in the hospital at the Dee, which was built about 1910, I think, when I started practicing medicine, you could get a good, private room for $3.50 a day. Now look at it. Now, I don't know what more I can tell you. 8 MT: Were there any special things that you did at that time either to build your practice or to help your patients out in paying their bills? FB: Well, I was a young, enthusiastic doctor just coming in, like they are today, except that we did a lot more sacrificing. We had an old Ford with the flaps on it. That was my first car. I built my own shanty on the back of a house that I paid $3,000 for when we first moved here. It was an old, sand-rolled brick house, and I thought that we had a mansion when we had it stuccoed, put in a fireplace, and built a tin garage for it. In those days automobiles weren't very good, and you had to drain them at night because you either used kerosene in them as an antifreeze, or you drained them out and brought out two kettles of warm water in the morning to put in before you could get it started. The roads were terrible. The people wore dusters when I started to practice here. If you went out of the city, you had to put on your duster because the dust was so thick. By the time you got out a few miles, you didn't know who you were. I remember crossing - going fishing up on the Lost Creek out of Blackfoot - and I remember getting on that dirt road and going a little ways, and you'd hit a hole and broke a spring or two. We always carried extra springs. I met a farmer coming this way, and I said, "How's the road from here on over to Lost Creek?" "Oh," he says, "this is good road that you're on here." That's the way things were. You had to put up with a lot of inconveniences. I remember the first operation I performed was out on the hillside going up from Pleasant View in a little, old, unpainted two-room house. The farmer had a daughter. I went in with an old family doctor here, and this old doctor had 9 misdiagnosed this case. They didn't know anything about surgery anyway in those days, to speak of. Surgery was just being developed, as you well know. There were a few good surgeons in the big cities but out in the country . Dr. Rich himself told me that for a pain in the belly, put chicken entrails on the belly and fresh manure, hoping that some miracle would occur. You can't believe that, can you? And they didn't believe in vaccination when I first came to Ogden very much. It was against the religion - let God take care of things, just like they do in Central Africa. There's been more changes in medicine, more advancement in medicine than ever in the world before, and so much so that there's a prevention for almost any disease except the virus. They still haven't come up with anything for the virus. But everything else. But you asked me what we would do with these poor patients. We'd just let them alone. We just went to take care of them. Sometimes I was paid in chickens. I had chickens in the kitchen, which my wife objected to. One fellow gave me a goat to pay for what we had. But as far as homes were concerned, in 1914 and 1915 I bought a home for $3,000. You can't even get through the front gate for that. It was an old house in the bottoms, and I had it stuccoed and had a fireplace put in, and I built a shanty behind. The fellow who left it had left a garden of frozen parsnips, which we lived off practically. So we were all poor when we started out. Now, I didn't know any rich people in those days, when I was a boy. In fact, I didn't get acquainted with them. We had a family of five, my father did, and when we didn't have work here in Ogden on the railroad, he was a cabinetmaker, 10 and a very good one. He went to Heber City and built a Mormon church there, and a school, and he came back after two or three weeks with a sack with flour, or five pounds of butter that he had been paid by, and a wagon. So those days, they were kind of rough, and they were kind of tough, just like they were in medicine. But things kept improving, and one of the first antibiotics we used - I can't remember the name of it. It wasn't an antibiotic, really; it was a medicine which you took, and it turned you pink all over. I can't remember what it was called now, it slips my mind. I remember Jack Goodly, here in Ogden, was on the police force, and he had an abscess on his face. I gave him this medicine, and he was as pink as a painting. He got over it anyway, and whether he ascribed his getting better to the medicine or me was immaterial because I don't think either of us had much to do with it, really. It was just an act of God. But I will tell you that during those early days, and it was near the time of the Depression, we had nothing for acute infection to help them out, not any more than they did ten years before. We knew appendicitis and how to diagnose better, but our x-ray machines were very poor. I started the first laboratory in Dee Hospital. They had no microscope, no nothing, no Petri dishes, no nothing. I brought them up from my office because I was primarily trained as a pathologist in Rush Medical, and I started the first laboratory up there in the basement. That was in 1915. Today, if a man has a slight pain today, they go through all sorts of expensive maneuvers to find out what it is. People died like flies of acute infection. I remember one fellow in particular that I was very fond of. He was tall, 11 slightly ruddy-faced, red-haired druggist. He worked in what was then called Ballkins Drugstore, fine, big strong fellow. He got a little cold and had a pleural pain, and old Dr. Camahan, who took care of him and who liked to discuss the Japanese-Russian War.gave him a bottle of medicine or something, and he was dead in two days. You think a young man with a family, a pain in his side, we watched very closely because we knew that meant the beginning of a lobar pneumonia, and we didn't have a darn thing for it. Don't think that the practice of medicine and the people who have gone before, don't think they haven't gone through an awful lot of tough sicknesses without anything to do. Do you know that during the plague in the twelfth century, there were over 25 million people that died in Europe? And we have had a little of that lately. We have a vaccine for it. We give it to them, and they don't get it. The medical schools, when I went to study medicine in 1906, I went to the University of Caldwell. We had a combined course of six years to get our bachelor's degree and our medical degree, and on top of that, I took a master's degree. You could work. I worked waiting tables, cutting meat, in the library, and our tuition was $45 a quarter, which I usually paid for by working for it. Now you can't get into medical school today unless you can prove to them that you have adequate funds of at least $1,000 a year to pay for your upkeep. Because you cannot work and go to medical school, so tough are they, and so tense are the requirements on studying. That's the difference.

Theory Talk #75: Tarak Barkawi on IR after the West, and why the best work in IR is often found at its marginsIn this Talk, Tarak Barkawi discusses the importance of the archive and real-world experiences, at a time of growing institutional constraints. He reflects on the growing rationalization and "schoolification" of the academy, a disciplinary and epistemological politics institutionalized within a university audit culture, and the future of IR in a post-COVID world. He also discusses IR's contorted relationship to the archive, and explore future sites of critical innovation and inquiry, including the value of knowledge production outside of the academy. PDF version of this TalkSo what is, or should be, according to you, the biggest challenge, or principal debate in critical social sciences and history?Right now, despite thinking about it, I don't have an answer to that question. Had you asked me five years ago, I would have said, without hesitation, Eurocentrism. There's a line in Chakrabarty's Provincializing Europe where he remarks that Europe has already been provincialized by history, but we still needed to provincialize it intellectually in the social sciences. Both sides of this equation have intensified in recent years. Amid a pandemic, in the wreckage of neoliberalism, in the wake of financial crisis, the defeats in Iraq and Afghanistan, the events of the Trump Presidency, and the return of the far right, the West feels fundamentally reduced in stature. The academy, meanwhile, has moved on from the postcolonial to the decolonial with its focus on alternative epistemologies, about which I am more ambivalent intellectually and politically. Western states and societies are powerful and rich, their freedoms attractive, and most of them will rebound. But what does it mean for the social sciences and other Western intellectual traditions which trace their heritage to the European Enlightenments that the West may no longer be 'the West', no longer the metropole of a global order more or less controlled by its leading states? What kind of implications does the disassembling of the West in world history have for social and political inquiry? I don't have an answer to that. Speaking more specifically about IR, we are dealing now with conservative appropriations of Eurocentrism, with the rise of other civilizational IRs (Chinese, European, Indian). These kinds of moves, like the decolonial one, foreground ultimately incommensurable systems of knowing and valuing, at best, and at worst are Eurocentrism with the signs reversed, usually to China. I do not think what we should be doing right now in the academy is having Chinese social sciences, Islamic social sciences, Indian social sciences, and so on. But that's definitely one way in which the collapse of the West is playing out intellectually. How did you arrive at where you currently are in your thinking about International Relations?By the time you get to my age you have a lot of debt, mostly to students, to old teachers and supervisors, and to colleagues and friends. University scholars tend not to have very exciting lives, so I don't have much to offer in the way of events. But I can give you an experience that I do keep revisiting when I reflect on the directions I've taken and the things I've been interested in. When I was in high school, I took a university course taught by Daniel Ellsberg, of the Pentagon Papers. As many will know, before he became involved in the Vietnam War, and later in opposing it, he worked on game theory and nuclear strategy. I grew up in Southern California, in Orange County, and there was a program that let you take courses at the University of California, Irvine. I took one on the history of the Roman Empire and then a pair of courses on nuclear weapons that culminated with one taught by Ellsberg himself. I actually had no idea who he was but the topic interested me. Nuclear war was in the air in the early 1980s. Activist graduate students taught the preparatory course. They were good teachers and I learned all about the history and politics of nuclear weapons. But I also came to realize that these teachers were trying to shape (what I would now call) my political subjectivity. Sometimes they were ham handed, like the old ball bearings in the tin can trick: turn the lights out in the room, and put one ball bearing in the can for each nuclear warhead in the world, in 1945 this many; in 1955 this many; and so on. In retrospect, that's where I got hooked on the idea of graduate school. I was aware that Ellsberg was regarded as an important personage. He taught in a large lecture hall. At every session, a kind of loyal corps of new and old activists turned out, many in some version of '60s attire. The father of a high school friend was desperate to get Ellsberg's autograph, and sent his son along with me to the lecture one night to get it. It was political instruction of the first order to figure out that this suburban dad had been a physics PhD at Berkley in the late '60s and early '70s, demonstrating against the Vietnam War. But now he worked for a major aerospace defense contractor. He had a hot tub in his backyard. Meanwhile, Ellsberg cancelled class one week because he'd been arrested demonstrating at a major arms fair in Los Angeles. "We stopped the arms race for a few hours," he told the class after. I schooled myself on who Ellsberg was and Vietnam, the Cold War, and much else came into view. Meanwhile, he gave a master class in nuclear weapons and foreign policy, cheekily naming his course after Kissinger's book, I later came to appreciate. I learned about RAND, the utility of madness for making nuclear threats, and how close we'd come to nuclear war since 1945. My high school had actually been built to double as a fallout shelter, at a time when civil defense was taken seriously as an aspect of a credible threat of second strike. It was low slung, stoutly built, with high iron fences that could be closed to create a cantonment. We were not far from Seal Beach Naval Weapons Station and a range of other likely targets. All of this sank in as I progressed in these courses. Then one day at a strip mall bookstore, I discovered Noam Chomsky's US foreign policy books and never looked back. At Cambridge, I caught the tail end of the old Centre of International Studies, originally started by an intelligence historian and explicitly multi-disciplinary. It had, in my time, historians, lawyers, area studies, development studies, political theory and history of thought, and IR scholars and political scientists. Boundaries certainly existed out there in the disciplines. But there weren't substantial institutional obstacles to thinking across them, while interdisciplinary environments gave you lots of local resources (i.e. colleagues and students) for thinking and reading creatively. What would a student need to become a kind of specialist in your kind of area or field or to understand the world in a global way? Lots of history, especially other peoples' histories; to experience what it's like to see the world from a different place than where you grew up, so that the foreign is not an abstraction to you. I think another route that can create very interesting scholars is to have a practitioner career first, in development, the military, a diplomatic corps, NGOs, whatever. Even only five years doing something like that not only teaches people how the world works, it is intellectually fecund, creative. People just out of operational posts are often full of ideas, and can access interesting resources for research, like professional networks. How, in your view, should IR responding to the shifting geopolitical landscape?  The fate I think we want to avoid is carrying on with what Stanley Hoffmann called the "American social science": the IR invented out of imperial crisis and world war by Anglo-American officials, foundations and thinkers. Very broadly speaking, and with variations, this was a new world combination of realism and positivism. This discipline was intended as the intellectual counterpart to the American-centered world order, designed, among other things, to disappear the question of race in the century of the global color line. The way it conceived the national/international world obscured how US world power worked in practice. That power operated in and through formally sovereign, independent states—an empire by invitation, in the somewhat rosy view of Geir Lundestad—trialed in Latin America and well suited to a decolonizing world. It was an anti-colonial imperium. Political science divided up this world between IR and comparative politics. This kind of IR is cortically connected to the American-centered world fading away before our eyes. It is a kind of zombie discipline where we teach students about world politics as if we were still sitting with the great power peacemakers of 1919 and 1944-45. It is still studying how to make states cooperate under a hegemon or how to make credible deterrence threats in various circumstances. Interestingly, I think one of the ways the collapse of US power is shaping the discipline was identified by Walt and Mearsheimer in their 2013 article on the decline of theory in IR. In the US especially but not only, IR is increasingly indistinguishable from political science as a universal positivist enterprise mostly interested in applying highly evolved, quantitative or experimental approaches to more or less minor questions. Go too far down this road and IR disappears as a distinct disciplinary space, it becomes just a subject matter, a site of empiricist inquiry. Instead, the best work in IR mostly occurs on the edges of the discipline. IR often serves as cover for diverse and interdisciplinary work on transboundary relations. Those relations fall outside the core objects of analysis of the main social science and humanities disciplines but are IR's distinctive focus. The mainstream, inter-paradigm discipline, for me, has never been a convincing social science of the international and is not something I teach or think much about these days. But the classical inheritances of the discipline help IR retain significant historical, philosophical and normative dimensions. Add in a pluralist disposition towards methodology, and IR can be a unique intellectual space capable of producing scholars and scholarship that operate across disciplines. The new materialism, or political ecology, is one area in which this is really happening right now. IR is also a receptive home for debating the questions thrown up by the decolonial turn. These are two big themes in contemporary intellectual life, in and beyond the academy. IR potentially offers distinct perspectives on them which can push debates forward in unexpected ways, in part because we retain a focus on the political and the state, which too easily drop out of sight in global turns in other disciplines. In exchange, topics like the new materialism and the decolonial offer IR the chance to connect with world politics in these new times, after the American century. In my view, and it is not one that I think is widely shared, IR should become the "studies" discipline that centers on the transboundary. How do we re-imagine IR as the interdisciplinary site for the study of transboundary relations as a distinct social and political space? That's a question of general interest in a global world, but one which few traditions of thought are as well-equipped to reflect on and push forward as we are.That's an interesting and forceful critique which also brings us back to a common thread throughout your work: questions of power and knowledge and specifically the relation between power and knowledge in IR and social science. I'm interested in exploring this point further, because so much of your critique has been centered on how profoundly Eurocentric IR is and as a product of Western power. Well, IR's development as a discipline has been closely tied to Western state power. It would seem that it has to change, given the shifts underway in the world. It's like Wile E. Coyote in the Road Runner cartoons - he's run off the cliff. His legs are still moving, but he hasn't dropped, yet. That said, there's no singularly determinate relation between power and the historical development of intellectual traditions. Who knows what kind of new ideas and re-imagining of IR's concepts we might see? As I say, I think one reflection of these changes is that we're already seeing North American IR start to fade into universal quantitative social science. As Hoffmann observed, part of IR's appeal was that the Americans were running the world, that's why you started a social science concerned with things like bipolarity and deterrence, and with analyzing the foreign policy of a great power and its interests and conflicts around the world. Nowadays the Americans are at a late Roman stage of imperial decline. Thinking from the command posts of US foreign policy doesn't look so attractive or convincing when Emperor Nero is running the show, or something altogether darker is waiting in the wings. IR is supposed to be in command of world politics, analyzing them from on high. But what I've seen over the course of my education and career is the way world politics commands IR. The end of the Cold War torpedoed many careers and projects; the 1990s created corps of scholars concerned with development, civil war and humanitarian intervention; in the 2000s, we produced terrorism experts (and critical terrorism studies) and counterinsurgency specialists and critics, along with many scholars concerned in one way or another with Islam. What I have always found fascinating, and deeply indicative, about IR is the relative absence until relatively recently of serious inquiry into power/knowledge relations or the sociology of knowledge. In 1998 when Ole Waever goes to look at some of these questions, he notes how little there was to work from then, before Oren, Vitalis, Guilhot and others published. It's an astounding observation. In area studies, in anthropology, in the history of science, in development studies, in all of these areas of inquiry so closely entangled with imperial and state power, there are long-running, well developed traditions of inquiry into power/knowledge relations. It's a well-recognized area of inquiry, not some fringe activity, and it's heavily empirical, primary sourced based, as well as interesting conceptually. In recent decades you've seen really significant work come out about the role of the Second World War in the development of game theory, and its continuing entwinement with the nuclear contest of the Cold War. I'm thinking here of S.M. Amadae, Paul Erickson, and Philip Mirowski among others. The knowledge forms the American social science used to study world politics were part and parcel of world politics, they were internal to histories of geopolitics rather than in command of them. Of course, for a social science that models itself on natural science, with methodologies that produce so-called objective knowledge, the idea that scientific knowledge itself is historical and power-ridden, well, you can't really make sense of that. You'd be put in the incoherent position of studying it objectively, as it were, with the same tools. IR arises from the terminal crisis of the British Empire; its political presuppositions and much else were fundamentally shaped by the worldwide anti-communist project of the US Cold War state; and it removed race as a term of inquiry into world politics during the century of the global color line. All this, and but for Hoffmann's essay, IR has no tradition of power/knowledge inquiry into its own house until recently? It's not credible intellectually. Anthropologists should be brought in to teach us how to do this kind of thing. You've been at the forefront of the notion of historical IR, and in investigating the relationship between history and theory – why is history important for IR?Well, I think I'd start with the question of what do we mean when we say history? For mainstream social science, it means facts in the past against which to test theories and explanations. For critical IR scholars, it usually means historicism, as that term is understood in social theory: social phenomena are historical, shaped by time and place. Class, state, race, nation, empire, war, these are all different in different contexts. While I think this is a very significant insight and one that I agree with, on its own it tends to imply that historical knowledge is available, that it can be found by reading historians. In fact, for both empiricism and historicism there is a presumption that you can pretty reliably find out what happened in the past. For me, this ignores a second kind of historicism, the historicism of history writing itself, the historiographical. The questions historians ask, how they inquire into them, the particular archives they use, the ways in which they construct meaning and significance in their narratives, the questions they don't ask, that about which they are silent, all of these, shape history writing, the history that we know about. The upshot is that the past is not stable; it keeps changing as these two meanings of historicism intertwine. We understand the Haitian revolution now, or the indigenous peoples of the Americas, entirely differently than we did just a few decades ago.That raises another twist to this problem. Many IR scholars access history through reading historians or through synthetic accounts; they encounter history by and large through secondary sources. One consequence is that they are often a generation or more behind university historians. Think of how Gaddis, for instance, remains a go to authority on the history of the Cold War in IR. In other disciplines, from the 1980s on, there was a historical turn that took scholars into the archives. Anthropologists and literary scholars used historians' tools to answers their own questions. The result was not just a bunch of history books, but entirely new readings of core questions. The classic example is the historical Shakespeare that Stephen Greenblatt found in the archives, rather than the one whose texts had been read by generations of students in English departments. My point here is that working in archives was conceptually, theoretically significant for these disciplines and the subjects they studied. For example, historical anthropology has given us new perspectives on imperialism. While there is some archival work in IR of course, especially in disciplinary history, it is not central to disciplinary debates and the purpose is usually theory testing in which the past appears as merely a bag of facts. In sum, when I say history and theory, I don't just mean thinking historically. I mean actually doing history, being an historian—which means archives—and in so doing becoming a better theorist. Could you expand on these points by telling us about your recent work on military history? I think that military history is particularly interesting because it is a site where war is reproduced and shaped. Military history participates in that which it purports only to study. Popular military histories shape the identities of publics. Staff college versions are about learning lessons and fighting war better the next time. People who grow up wanting to be soldiers often read about them in history books. So our historical knowledge of war, and war as a social and historical process, are wrapped up together. I hope some sense of the promise of power/knowledge studies for larger questions comes through here. I'm saying that part of what war is as a social phenomenon is history writing about it. It's in this kind of context that the fact that a great deal of military history is actually written by veterans, often of the very campaigns of which they write, becomes interesting. Battle produces its own historians. This is a tradition that goes back to European antiquity, soldiers and commanders returning to write histories, the histories, of the wars they fought in. So this question of veterans' history writing is in constitutive relations with warfare, and with the West and its nations and armies. My shorthand for the particular area of this I want to look into is what I call "White men's military histories". That is, Western military history in the modern era is racialized, not just about enemies but about the White identities constructed in and through it. And I want to look at the way this is done in campaigns against racialized others, particularly situations where defeats and reverses were inflicted on the Westerners. How were such events and experiences made sense of historically? How were they mediated in and through military history? I think defeats are particularly productive, incitements to discourse and sense making. To think about these questions, I want to look at the place of veterans in the production of military histories, as authors, sources, communities of interpretation. My sandbox is the tumultuous first year of the Korean War, where US forces suffered publically-evident reverses and risked being pushed into the sea. In a variety of ways, veterans shape military history, through their questions, their grievances, their struggles over reputation, their memories. This happens at many different sites and scales, including official and popular histories, and the networks of veterans behind them as well as other, independently published works. Over the course of veterans' lives, their war throws up questions and issues that become the subject of sometimes dueling and contradictory accounts. Through their history writing, they connect their war experience to Western traditions of battle historiography. They make their war speak to other wars. This is what military history is, and how it can come to produce and reproduce practices of war-making, at least in Anglo-American context. Of course, much of this history writing, like narrations of experience generally, reflects dominant ideologies, in this case discourses of the US Cold War in Asia. But counter-historians are also to be found among soldiers. The shocks and tragic absurdities of any given war produce research questions of their own. At risk of mixing metaphors, the veterans know where the skeletons are buried. They bear resentments and grievances about how their war was conducted that become research topics, and they often have the networks and wherewithal to produce informed and systematic accounts. So as well as reproducing hegemonic discourses, soldier historians are also interesting as a new critical resource for understanding war.This shouldn't be that surprising. In other areas of inquiry, amateur and practitioner scholars have often been a source of critical innovation. LGBTQ history starts outside the academy, among activists who turned their apartments into archives. Much of what we now call postcolonial scholarship also began outside the academy, among colonized intellectuals involved in anti-imperial struggles. Let me close this off by going back to the archive. There are really rich sources for this kind of project. Military historians of all kinds leave behind papers full of their research materials and correspondence. The commanders and others they wrote about often waged extended epistolary campaigns concerned with correcting and shaping the historical record. But more than this, by situating archival sources alongside what later became researched and published histories, what drops out and what goes in to military history comes into view. What is silenced, and what is given voice? We can then see how the violent and forlorn episodes of war are turned into narrated events with military meaning. What is the process by which war experience becomes military history?Given the interdisciplinary nature of your work, what field you place yourself in? And are there any problems have you encountered when writing and thinking across scholarly boundaries?In my head I live in a kind of idealized interdisciplinary war studies, and my field is the intersection of war and empire. Sort of Michael Howard meets Critical Theory and Frantz Fanon. This has given me a particular voice in critical IR broadly conceived, and a distinctive place from which to engage the discipline. The mostly UK departments I've been in have been broadly hospitable places in practice for interdisciplinary scholarship and teaching, so long as you published rather than perished. Of course, interdisciplinary is a complicated word. It is one thing to be multi-disciplinary, to publish in the core journals of more than one discipline and to be recognized and read by scholars in more than one discipline. But work that falls between disciplinary centers, which takes up questions and offers answers recognized centrally by no discipline, that's something harder to deal with. I thought after Soldiers of Empire won prizes in two disciplines that I'd have an easier time getting funding for the project I described earlier in the interview. But I've gotten nowhere, despite years of applications to a variety of US, UK, and European funders. Of course, this may be because it is a bad project! My point, though, is that disciplines necessarily, and even rightly, privilege work that speaks to central questions; that's the work that naturally takes on significance in disciplinary contexts, as in many grant or scholarship panels. I think another point here is the nature of the times. Understandably, no one is particularly interested right now in White men's military histories. What I think has really empowered disciplines during my time in the UK academy has been the intersection with audit culture and university management. Repeated waves of rationalization have washed over the UK academy, which have emphasized discipline as a unit of measurement and management even as departments themselves were often "schoolified" into more or less odd combinations of disciplines. Schoolification helped to break down old solidarities and identities, while audit culture needed something on which to base its measures. The great victory of neoliberalism over the academy is evident in the way it is just accepted now that performance has to be assessed by various public criteria. This is where top disciplinary journals enter the picture, as unquestionable (and quantifiable) indicators of excellence. Interdisciplinary journals don't have the same recognition, constituency, or obvious significance. To put it in IR terms, Environment and Planning D or Comparative Studies in Society and History, to take two top journals that interdisciplinary IR types publish in, will never have the same weight as, say, ISQ or APSR. That that seems natural is an indicator of change—when I started, RIS—traditionally welcoming of interdisciplinary scholarship—was seen as just as good a place to publish as any US journal. Now RIS is perceived as merely a "national" journal while ISQ and APSR are "international" or world-class. This kind of thing has consequences for careers and the make-up of departments. What I'm drawing attention to is not so much an intellectual or academic debate; scholars always disagree on what good scholarship is, which is how it is supposed to be. It is rather the combination of discipline with the suffocating culture of petty management that pervades so much of British life. Get your disciplinary and epistemological politics institutionalized in an audit culture environment, and you can really expand. For example, the professionalization of methods training in the UK has worked as a kind of Trojan Horse for quantitative and positivist approaches within disciplines. In IR, in the potted geographic lingo we use, that has meant more US style work. Disappearing is the idea of IR as an "inter-discipline," where departments have multi-disciplinary identities like I described above. The US idea that IR is part of political science is much more the common sense now than it was in the UK. Another dimension of the eclipse of interdisciplinary IR has been the rise of quantitative European political science, boosted by large, multiyear grants from the ERC and national research councils. It's pretty crazy, strategically speaking, for the UK to establish a civilizational scale where you're always behind the US or its European counterparts. You'll never do North American IR as well as the North Americans do, especially given the disparity in resources. You'll always be trending second or third tier. The British do like to beat themselves up. Meanwhile, making US political science journals the practical standard for "international excellence" threatens to make the environment toxic for the very scholarship that has made British IR distinctive and attractive globally. The upshot of that will be another wave of émigré scholars, which the British academy's crises and reform initiatives produce from time to time. Think of the generation of UK IR scholars who decamped to Australia, an academy poised to prosper in the post-covid world (if the government there can get its vaccination program on track) and a major site right now of really innovative IR scholarship. To return to what you mentioned earlier regarding the hesitancy to go to the archives, this is also mirrored in a hesitancy to do serious ethnography, I think as well. Or there's this "doing ethnography" that involves a three-day field trip. This kind of sweet-shop 'pick and mix' has come to characterize some methodologies, because of these constraints that you highlight…A lot of what I'm talking about has happened within universities, it's not externally imposed or a direct consequence of the various government-run assessment exercises. Academics, eagerly assisted by university managers, have done a lot of this to themselves and their students. The implications can be far reaching for the kind of scholarship that departments foster, from PhDs on up. More and more of the UK PhD is taken up with research methods courses, largely oriented around positivism even if they have critical components. Already this gives a directionality to ideas. The advantage of the traditional UK PhD—working on your own with a supervisor to produce a piece of research—has been intellectual freedom, even when the supervisor wasn't doing their job properly. It's not great, but the possibility for creative, innovative, even field changing scholarship was retained. PhD students weren't disciplined, so to speak. What happens now is that PhD students are subject to a very strict four year deadline, often only partially funded, their universities caring mainly about timely completion not placement and preparation for a scholarly career, a classic case of the measurement displacing the substantive value. The formal coursework they get is methods driven. You can supervise interdisciplinary PhD research in this kind of environment, but it's not easy and poses real risks and creates myriad obstacles for the student. A strange consequence of this, as many of my master's students will tell you, is that I often advise them to consider US PhDs, just in other disciplines. That way, they get the benefit of rigorous PhD level coursework beyond methods. They can do so in disciplines like history or anthropology that are currently receptive both to the critical and the transnational/transboundary. That is not a great outcome for UK IR, even if it may be for critically-minded students. Outside of a very few institutions and scattered individuals, US political science, of course, has largely cleansed itself of the critical and alternative approaches that had started to flower in the glasnost era of the 1990s. That is not something we should be seeking to emulate in the UK.So yes, there's much to say here, about how the four year PhD has materially shaped scholarship in the UK. There is generally very little funding for field work. Universities worried about liability have put all kinds of obstacles in the way of students trying to get to field work sites. Requirements like insisting that students be in residence for their fourth year in order to write up and submit on time further limit the possibilities for field work. The upshot is to make the PhD dissertation more a library exercise or to favor the kind of quantitative, data science work that fits more easily into these time constraints and structures. Again, quite obviously, power sculpts knowledge. It becomes simply impossible, within the PhD, to do the kinds of things associated with serious qualitative scholarship, like learn languages, spend long time periods in field sites and to visit them more than once, to develop real networks there. Over time this shapes the academy, often in unintended ways. I think this is one of the reasons that IR in the UK has been so theoretic in character—what else can people do but read books, think and write in this kind of environment? As I say, the other kind of thing they can do is quantitative work, which takes us right back to the fate Walt and Mearsheimer sensed befalling IR as political science. Watch for IR and Data Science joint degrees as the next step in this evolution. Political Science in the US starts teaching methods at the freshman level. They get them young. We have discussed the rather grim state of affairs for the future of critical social science scholarship, at least in the UK and US. To conclude – what prospects for hope in the future are there?Well, if I had a public relations consultant pack, this is the point at which it would advise talking about children and the power of science to save us. I think the environment for universities, political, financial, and otherwise may get considerably more difficult. Little is untouchable in Western public life right now, it is only a question of when and in what ways they will come for us. The nationalist and far-right turns in Western politics feed off transgressing boundaries. There's no reason to suspect universities will be immune from this, and they haven't been. In the UK, as a consequence of Brexit, we are having to nationalise, and de-European-ise our scholarships and admissions processes. We are administratively enacting the surrender of cosmopolitan achievements in world politics and in academic life. This is not a plot but in no small measure the outcome of democratic will, registered in the large majority Boris Johnson's Conservatives won at the last general election. It will have far reaching consequences for UK university life. This is all pretty scary if you think, as I do, that we are nearer the beginning then the end of the rise of the right. Covid will supercharge some of these processes of de-globalization. I can already see an unholy alliance forming of university managers and introvert academics who will want to keep in place various dimensions of the online academic life that has taken shape since spring 2020. Often this will be justified by reference to environmental concerns and by the increased, if degraded, access that online events make possible. We are going to have a serious fight on our hands to retain our travel budgets at anywhere near pre-pandemic levels. I'm hoping that this generation of students, subjected to online education, will become warriors for in-person teaching. All of this said, it's hard to imagine a more interesting time to be teaching, thinking and writing about world politics. Politics quite evidently retains its capacity to turn the world upside down. Had you told US citizens where they would be on January 6th, 2021 in 2016, they would have called you alarmist if not outlandish. I think we're in for more moments like that. Tarak Barkawi is a professor of International Relations at LSE. He uses interdisciplinary approaches to imperial and military archives to re-imagine relations between war, armed forces and society in modern times. He has written on the pivotal place of armed force in globalization, imperialism, and modernization, and on the neglected significance of war in social and political theory and in histories of empire. His most recent book, Soldiers of Empire, examined the multicultural armies of British Asia in the Second World War, reconceiving Indian and British soldiers in cosmopolitan rather than national terms. Currently, he is working on the Korean War and the American experience of military defeat at the hands of those regarded as racially inferior. This new project explores soldiers' history writing as a site for war's constitutive presence in society and politics.PDF version of this Talk

Transcript of an oral history interview with Mrs. Carol Todd, conducted by Sarah Yahm at the interviewee's home in Roxbury, Vermont, on 12 May 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Carol Todd was the wife of Norwich University president, W. Russell Todd, and the founder of the Norwich University Center for Volunteer Management. Included in the interview are reminiscences of Mrs. Todd's early life and education as well as her experiences at Norwich University. ; Mrs. Carol Todd, Oral History Interview May 12, 2015 At interviewee's home Interviewed by Sarah Yahm Transcribed by C.T. Haywood, NU '12 May 20, 2015 SARAH YAHM: You know what hold on I haven't turned this on yet and we're talking about interesting stuff that might be good to have on tape. But what were you saying about "should?" CAROL TODD: Well I, when General Todd was a young officer and we were first living at Fort Knox I learned a good deal about what I came to feel was my responsibility or at least what I should do for those wives who are around me, who might need me, who were just like I was with their mother wasn't there, their family was far way. And in those days when you were in Kentucky and your folks lived in New England it was a long way away. There was none of the technology that we enjoy now. Now I never was very good at this but I tried my best and I eventually did the work not directly for these young people but through an organization called Army Community Services, which was a social work organization, which now has become very strong and has professional people that do it. But when it started it was folks like myself who saw the need to be available. And we did what people's family would do for people who are in need or really need, kept an eye on folks is what happened. We all lived on post in the 1950s almost everyone lived on post in government quarters, government apartments. And we were neighbors. We were friends. We knew each other. We did things. We went for walks with the babies in a baby carriage. It's a different world and I understand that but I don't know how we got on the subject but it's…. SY: Well it's interesting because JoAnn Kelley who I interviewed talks about… CT: Oh yes! Interesting yeah… SY: Yeah about um when they were in Germany I guess you know Mike Kelley was away for a couple days for some reason. CT: Sure. SY: …for some reason she had already lost most of her vision and she talks about the incredible support of the women living on post with her enabling her to be able to do what she needed to do, right? Her kid got hurt and needed to go to the hospital and the degree to which the other, the mothers just dropped everything and took care of her kids and got her to the hospital and got her kid x-rays. And she felt that very powerfully in Germany. CT: Yeah and isn't it wonderful that she was the recipient of that kind of attention, because it must have been pretty tough to be alone. I think the whole ethos of this type of 2 community has changed in this whole country. It isn't just the military that it's changed in but and it isn't just the Army. I think the whole, but, for instance in those early days wives did not work. Ha! Heavens no! I knew of one of my friends who had a job who worked for a while. And I had come from a pla--from a situation where I had been working full time and could have probably managed to continue doing personnel work which is what I was doing. But I thought, "Huh," but nobody does that, you know, that isn't what we do here, you know. SY: Did you miss it? Because you, I mean you were you know you'd had a very good education, you were trained, you were? CT: I really didn't miss it at all. I really didn't. It was, we had such a good time. It was really fun. It was really fun for a while and one of the couples to whom we were close then, they lived around the corner and down the street a little bit, we are still close to. They live in Saco, Maine and the name is Nutting, Jane and Wally Nutting, and we still talk a lot and send birthday cards and visit once or twice a year. Unfortunately they both have some health issues, well don't we all at this age if you come right down to it. And so we don't see them as often as we'd like. But there was some very, very strong bonds. We took care of each other's children, we took care of each other. It was, it was easy and it's what people did and it made it easier to do I think than perhaps a different situation. And we were poor. You've got to remember in those days there was no extra cash. Everybody was counting out to see how much money they have left for the last week in the month and… SY: And were some--were you paying for your housing or was your housing free? CT: No we were paying for it. Because there were all kinds of arrangements but everybody paid for it in one way or another. Either they deducted it from your salary if you lived in certain kinds of housing. We lived in what was considered contract apartments and I think we paid $65.00 a month which seems like, it seemed like a lot then. It was for us then. And everybody and nobody, everybody, all the women were wearing their clothes from their trousseau you know because that's, there was no running out and buying new outfits and stuff like that. Yeah. SY: So let me actually, let me officially start this interview because I need to get us on tape. CT: Please do. SY: So I'm here interviewing--though I'll transcribe that and use that it's super interesting. So I'm here interviewing Carol Todd. Its May 12, we're at her house in Northfield. Is this technically still in Northfield? CT: As a matter of fact the house is in Roxbury though the garage is in Northfield. SY: [laughs]3 CT: Winch Hill Road is, you know the dividing line goes right through our garage as a matter of fact. We can show it to you. It's painted on the floor the garage. SY: That's hilarious, yeah. It's like the Derby Line Opera House and Library. CT: Oh yes, right, right [laughs]. It's true. SY: So okay let's actually, let's start from the beginning because oral history it's a story of a life. So I guess where did you grow up? Where were you born? CT: I born in Beverly, Massachusetts which is just north of Boston - 28 miles we used to say - in 1928. I can remember, we've got a picture somewhere in our files of the funny old car that my father had to, came home from the hospital, a funny sort of thing, an open sort of sedan thing. My parents were older parents which made my birth very exciting because my mother was 37 or 8 by the time I was born and that was considered geriatric practically. She never had the first labor pain. She didn't have the baby and didn't have the baby when it was due. So finally the doc went, "Hmmm better do something about this," and it was determined well before I was born that I was no doubtful a boy. There was no question about it. I had such a slow heartbeat which I still do. But no I wasn't a boy was I? And he was to have been named for my father, it would have been William Henry. So when I was a girl, some of the doctor or one of the nurses said, "Well, what are you going to name her?" and she said, "Well I guess I'll have to name her Wilhelmina Henrietta" which caused everyone in the delivery room to have a good laugh. But instead I was named for my grandfather's mother who had died giving birth to him in 18--what is it? '34 I think, yeah. I get the numbers kind of mixed up. But no he was born in '54, 1854. And anyway, but I was named for her my name being Caroline but I've been called Carol ever since. Because at the time in the thirties Carole Lombard was very, very famous and very fancy. So lots of people who were named a word like Caroline would be named, called Carol and that's, I still use Caroline for my legal name but other than that. And then I grew up in Beverly, small town, 20,000 people more or less. Went to the public school there. Could walk to school, could walk home for lunch, back for the afternoon, back home in the afternoon, play outside in the in our yard or in the yard next door. Go sliding on down the street on the little hill in somebody else's backyard. I had ah [cough] (pardon me), I had friends that I knew in kindergarten that I graduated from high school with and one of them I still play Words with Friends to this day with. One of these girls is still my friend. It's really fun. Everybody went to a different church and I thought, was only thinking about that this morning. My sister and I and one other, Eleanor, went to the Washington Street Congregational Church which is around the street from us. But my friend Pauline went to the Baptist church which was up the corner, and Elizabeth Ann went to the Episcopal church and then another friend went to the Dane Street Congregational Church and nobody thought this was odd. I mean this is how it was. People were all mixed together I think in the public school system which was a really good thing. I can remember in the sixth grade how thrilled I was when a new student came whose name was Emilio Zarzanello. So my last name being Wyeth I was no longer the end of the alphabet when we lined up by names. So I loved Emilio Zarzanello.4 I thought that was grand. Went to all the way through the public school there, went to junior high. It was a building called Briscoe which still stands in the center of town which is the same school that my grandfather had gone to and it had been condemned during the time he was there so you can imagine what it was like then. Went to high school there at Beverly High School and that's where I met my husband whose family lived in Wenham, Massachusetts, which is an area just north of where we lived that had no high school. So he was tuitioned into Beverly High School, and I guess we just, we had lockers, adjacent lockers, you know how kids used to in high school. And l loved that high school. It was really great. Had extremely good teachers, some. A wonderful English teacher who pushed and shoved me hard to love words, to recite poetry, to do this sort of thing. And a history teacher named Mr. Bellmore who taught us how to take exams which was a marvelous thing to do. Every Monday morning he passed out a piece of paper on which there were 5 questions and these were things we were going to learn this week in American history. On Friday he would choose one of these topics, throw out a question in regards to this, give us blue books just like you had in college and said, "You now have 20 minutes to write me an essay on this subject." Well once you got the idea and got onto it all you had to do is learn the material and recite it back in written form, which he then corrected, spelling, punctuation, to say nothing of the facts and by the end of senior year I could take an exam in almost anything if somebody would frame it just correctly. And it helped me tremendously in college to have had that training. It was a good high school. SY: Absolutely. Do you remember your first impression of your husband? CT: Yeah I do. I just thought he was so handsome and he was wearing a bright red cable knit sweater that his grandmother had made for him. Isn't that funny? Yes I do. But the interesting thing was his mother had just had a baby. A what? We were astonished. And that baby is his brother Dick who we still are very. very close to but all those years through high school Russ was a big draw for girls who loved to go up to his house and push the baby carriage and knit mittens for Richard and this sort of thing. It's funny isn't it yeah? Our parents, both sets of parents sensed it once this was an important relationship for both of us. So my mother called a woman whose name I've really tried hard to remember, but she lived in Wenham and mother knew that - her name was Miriam something - she knew that Miriam would have known the Todds through the town. So she called up to ask Miriam who these people were. Meanwhile the Todds who lived down the street from this ladyhad called her to say, "Do you know who these people are that live in Beverley?" And she assured both parents that this was okay that this you know is a good relationship and everybody relaxed and said, "Okay." We went to a lot of activities together in high school. SY: I was just gonna say. So this is what year? You were born in '28 so this is… CT: We graduated in '46 so it's late forties. SY: Okay so, yeah what were, what was dating like in the early forties? What were the protocols? 5 CT: Well, the boy usually called up or said, "Do you want to go to the movies?" That's what we did; we went to the movies. And the first few times we dated we went with his parents, his mother and father, because Russ didn't drive because he, I suppose he wasn't 16 come to think--oh he must have been. Well I don't know why we wend, but anyway we did, we went with the Todds and a couple of times. And then my mother and by then my father wasn't well, but anyway and we were living with my grandparents. But my mother said, "Why don't we have him for dinner before you go out?" I don't know where we were going so he came for supper and that was a big success because he was reasonably comfortable doing that. He had met them and we lived about 5 or 6 maybe 7 miles apart. They weren't really in our neighborhood but it was another town. And that we also used to do things like go to a large picnics that the coll--school would have like the chemistry department would have a picnic and we'd all go. And I can remember one time we won a three legged race. Because you see physically we were very much the same size. Of course we're not now because I've shrunk more, but we were then. I have longer legs and he had a longer torso but we could do things like, we're very much the same shape and size which was handy for three legged races if nothing else. SY: Exactly. I'm also realizing that you grew up during the war. And so I'm wondering what your memories of wartime in Beverley were like? Do you remember blackout curtains? Do you remember rationing? CT: Oh yeah, all those things. Blackout curtains were fun. Well they weren't fun but it was interesting because you had to have them, and you had to pull them down and sometimes you pulled them down and fasten them on the sill. But if you didn't do it just right they'd unroll and go "brrrt" go up and everybody'd "oh no." We also had to paint the bottom half of the headlights on the cars because we lived near the ocean. You know we lived right there on the Atlantic Ocean. So you had to do that in order that the, to take care of the submarines so they wouldn't see you when they came in close to shore. Which of course we learned they did later. We learned quite a bit about that. My father was in the Coast Guard Auxiliary. He was of the wrong age to be in the second world, in either of the world wars. He was too young for one, too old for another. And so he used to go out with the other men on his team and walk on the beaches in Beverly and sometimes in other towns nearby looking for lights in the ocean and he'd come home. All night they'd be out, you know, like 8 or 9 hours maybe longer at night. I can remember how tired he would be and every once in a while he'd say to my mother, "It was worth it, it was worth it," meaning they'd seen something and notified the people in Boston who took care of it, you know. They had a telephone system. It wasn't like a cell phone but they had some sort of a telephone system they could call. And he also in the summertime went out in a boat with his friend Homer Riggs and looking for people who are off our coast that didn't belong there. Which was sort of interesting too. We collected tin foil when you chewed gum. You got, you know each one was wrapped in a tin foil. Maybe it still is I don't know, and we made balls of tin foil. We collected newspapers. As we recycled them then we recycled them then in the World War II. We 6 also collected bacon fat. Nasty trick but you put any fat into a tin can or some sort of a receptacle that would have a lid. I can't remember what else. Oh my mother was a hoot. She decided if my father was going to be in Coast Guard Auxiliary she'd have to do something so she joined the Red Cross Auxiliary and learned to cook for large numbers of people. I have a recipe book somewhere - cocoa for 100, meatloaf for 250, you know. She never did it, she never had to do it. But they were prepared for any kind of emergency. Well the only emergency we ever had was in our town. There were icehouses full of saw dust where they stored the ice from Wenham Lake and Kelleher's Pond which was near our house and stuff. Well time had come for those things to burn. Nobody set fires but I went to at least 3 icehouse fires during those years which, because my father would get us up in the middle of the night. They always burned at night it seemed. SY: Why would they being set on fire? CT: They weren't set on fire it would be combustion, you know, some sort of combustion, internal combustion. No, they were not set on fire. SY: Oh okay. CT: No, it just, they were accidents that happened I guess. SY: But there were a lot during that time period which is interesting. CT: Yeah, I guess, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. SY: I don't know because it would be hard for an icehouse to be set on, it just seems strange to me. CT: When icehouses empty and there's no ice in there dripping. SY: Oh the sawdust I didn't realize that. CT: You see, would dry out [phone rings in background] I suppose that maybe lightning set it on fire. I really don't know. SY: But you would wake up and you would go - CT: And my father would say, "come on quick!" so my sister and I we'd jump [sound of getting ready in a hurry] and run down and mother would be in her suit in case she had to make coca for 100, and the 4 of us would go off. And the thing was to be sure to be watch your step because my mother like both of my sister and I tend to trip on things. So my mother once tripped over a fire hose and skinned her knee. Caused great trouble because then the other Red Cross volunteers all came around in excitement to give her a bandage. That was big stuff. SY: Because everybody was all dressed up with nowhere to go, they had nothing to do but make hot cocoa for 150 [laughs]. A Band-Aid for the woman who tripped! That's hilarious. 7 CT: And she's one of our volunteers too, "Oh dear there goes Helen again." But anyway it was sort of an adventure for us. Now the other thing about World War II that made a huge impression on me - down at the end of our street, the end of our street was right on the water itself. We lived about 5 or 6 houses up. I could count them maybe I'm not sure how many. Anyway, lived a family that had a little girl that we babysat, I babysat for and my sister did and we helped take care of this girl. Nice little handicapped - she had I'm not sure what but she was handicapped. But we, so we enjoyed her. She was a nice girl. And their father whose name was Les Buck was on the train. His father, her father was on the train going into Boston one time because the Boston went in from the, from Beverly, every day so people could work in what we called in Town. In town was Boston, not, and uptown was Beverly but in town was to go to Boston. So he goes in, he's going in town, and he's sitting there minding his own business and he had had language lessons when he was in high school like so many of us do, and he could figure that the people in back of him were speaking German. Didn't know quite what they were saying but it was clearly German. "Hmm," he said. So when they got to Boston, to the North Station, he just got off and walked into where - in the railroad stations then they had a lot military police and there were shore police from the Navy all the way around Boston - and went up and said what he'd heard. And said, "those are the two men right there," and they run right over and took them away. Just because they were speaking German which sounds awful doesn't it? SY: I mean who knows? They could have, right… CT: It could have been German. Who knows, but we always thought they'd come aboard out of a submarine which is apparently did happen many times, but we thought that pretty exciting. SY: Yeah because it happened on your street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. CT: But if Russ were here, he'd tell you another story about our family which is World War I that he unearthed, and that is that somewhere in the papers that he's got of our family there's a letter that my grandfather got beginning of World War I saying: "Dear Mr. Lee, because of your exemplary behavior and your role as president of a bank in this small town you are hereby appointed by the governor of Massachusetts and the President of the United States to be on the alert on anything untoward that might happen in your community. We are aware that on the same street where you live there is a Mr. Carl Klink and Mr. Klink is now a U.S. citizen but has many relatives overseas." And you can just hear this letter. Mr. Klink, charming man, ran a bakery uptown and they said, "if at any time you have concerns about anything going on your street. You are at once to…" you know it's terribly officious letter… SY: And it's good that it was your grandfather and not somebody else who was sort of a paranoid bully, right? And would have taken him out of the bakery. CT: It's possible, yeah. We knew them really well. His wife was a friend of my grandmother's. His daughter went to school with my aunt. His granddaughter was in my 8 sister's group of friends, you know. And so my grandfather just filed it under you know, but Russ found it not long ago which it's funny. SY: It's so interesting. CT: There must have been people all over this country that got letters like that, don't you think? And now we wonder about you know privacy and all that kind of stuff, yeah. SY: That's fascinating. CT: Isn't that interesting? SY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well and the "if you see something say something", right? The post 9-11 signs everywhere. I didn't realize that that's how it was done in World War I. That's fascinating. So what about the Depression, how did your family fare? CT: Well my father had a very bad experience. We're never going to get to, we're never going to get me grown up at this rate. But my father had a very bad experience and I'll try to tell it straight because it's a little difficult. He was co-owner of an automobile agency and they sold Chryslers and Dodge and maybe one other kind of car. I was pretty young when this happened. And he went off to work every day and they sold the cars and everything worked fine. His partner was a man named Mr. Berry like in strawberry, Ralph Berry. And the story goes that one day he was ah, he got up go to work, went down to the garage what they called it, where this agency was, there were no cars, there were no records, there was nothing in the office and Ralph Berry was gone and so was every single cent in the bank that belonged to this agency. This was before the days when we had limited partnerships and we had legal protections for people who entered partnerships. In other words this man stole everything and it caused a great deal, a great deal of distress as you could well imagine. My father eventually after a few days had what they called a nervous breakdown. Now I suspect it was a depression of some sort. I don't know what it was. But I know I don't what it was. But I know that he had he to stay in bed and the curtains had to be down and my sister and I either had to be very quiet or go across the street to where my grandparents lived and go stay. We stayed over there for a little bit. And I, how long it went on I don't know, but eventually of course he got over it, whatever it was. But what else could it have been but depression? He didn't have a stroke. I don't know. He, as a result of this always had high blood pressure so it must have happened in 1937 or '38. Or no even before - '36 or '37, because by '38 when I was 10 years old, he was okay I can remember. But anyway and he died very young from auxiliary problems from having high blood pressure which in those days they didn't treat. The only thing they did he was he was supposed to be on a salt free diet. You know almost everything, even eggs have naturally some salt in them and you don't have to add anything. But my mother made salt free bread. Oh there were all kinds of goings on but he just continually got worse and worse and he died when I was a, well he died in 194-, he died in the November of 194-, October of 1949. So the last few years of his life were pretty uncomfortable for him and for all of us you, know. But Mr. Berry got off from this scot-free to the best of my knowledge I don't know otherwise. Had the nerve shortly 9 after my father died to buy a beautiful big house in Hamilton which is another small town outside Beverly, with horses and big yards, and gardens and stuff. Married a second wife and came back to town. And I thought, "What gall?" now somebody, I hope nobody listening to this ever was a relative of this man. But he just caused an awful lot of heartache in our family. But shortly after that I think it was this didn't happen to my father alone. This sort of thing was going on all over the country. Times were getting hard, the Depression was hard on people and my mother and father managed to take care of us somehow, I don't know. There was no social security. I'm sure they used up every cent of savings they'd ever had. I know when we needed things like when we got to be a certain age and wanted to go to camp my grandparents always gave it to us for our birthday present. Winter coats magically appeared, you know. I can re--the only time I ever remember anything happening that affected me personally was I said to my mother, "I really need a new pair of shoes these are getting so worn out," blah, blah, blah. And she said, "Carol I know you do," and she said, "and you can have a new pair of shoes. We're just gonna have to wait until the first of the month." And so we waited until the first of the month and I got what I needed. But there was no ah, they didn't. We were very very fortunate. SY: And they protected you from--I'm sure they were filled CT: Absolutely! SY: with money anxieties but they protected you from that? CT: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. SY: And so your father never really got his footing back? CT: Well in a way he did. Because after he sort of got his wits back together he and a friend of his who is a doctor, and the father of one of my girlfriend's, and another gentleman who we knew got together and bought cranberry bogs in Rhode Island, in a little small town called Greene, Rhode Island that's on the border with Connecticut; in Marshfield, Massachusetts which is near Quincy and Duxbury; and a third one that I for the life of me can't remember where it was. And they formed little company called the Summit Cranberry Company. These were all cranberry bogs that at one time had been very productive and had been let go and they had the great pleasure of investing enough money in it to make them all productive. It was just the time that Ocean Spray was getting going and Ocean Spray kept trying to buy them out or buy their product. "No," said these strong New England gentlemen, "we are independent growers." They loved being…well of course it was their downfall but they remained independent growers and they sold through an independent agent. Only berries to be sold in crates in the grocery store, never anything boxed or barreled or made into juice or jelly [laughs] certainly not. Just straight cranberries and they had various, all these different kinds and my mother used to go and help during harvest season. She used to go down and live at one of the bogs with my father while he was managing the harvest and she would go and I don't know did things with the various women and stuff. 10 SY: A lot of the Cape Verde immigrants worked? CT: They did, yeah. Except the foreman who was the only man I remember. His last name was Thibodeau and that's French isn't it? SY: French-Canadian. CT: So he probably was French-Canadian and he had a daughter named Lilian who was my sister's age. And one year at Christmas in the midst of all this my family got together and they said now, "We want to tell you we always put aside a certain amount of money for your Christmas." And they said, "But we just feel this year that Lillian and her sister (whose name I forgot) need Christmas treats more than you do. Would you mind if we took some of your money and gave them?" We said, "No fine with us, we like these little kids too." Which they did and you know to this day I have no idea that we got any less or any different than we ever did. We never knew the difference, you know, but I love it that they told us what they were going to do. SY: Well I think they were modeling. They were teaching you something, yeah. CT: Yeah. SY: That's very interesting so he did manage to do it. So okay do you remember going down there during harvest time? CT: Oh yeah. Sure. SY: Did you help harvest? CT: No. We were always too small. They used women and no. And I think it sort of would have been against the ethic to have the boss's children paddling around in the. But interestingly enough wherever cranberries grow so do blueberries, and we would always pick all the blueberries we could and we'd bring them home and blueberry jam and blueberry pie, and give them to the neighbors and you know stuff like that. We picked blueberries. And if my sister were here she'd tell you a story that I'm not sure. She always says that one time when she was picking blueberries she began to feel really cross because my mother was sort of supervising her and saying, "Don't pick this one we don't want any green ones" [nagging sound] and she looked around and it wasn't my mother it was a bear that was standing by her. But that was the presence she felt was a bear. SY: Oh that's Blueberries for Sal. That's a children's book that I've read, she mixed that up. Blueberries for Sal is a story in Maine of a little boy named Sal picking berries. CT: It's Robert McCloskey isn't it? SY: Yeah, yeah. CT: Isn't that, that's where she got it. SY: That's where she got it. She thought it was her own story! [Laughs] that's hilarious. 11 CT: She probably--you can see as a little kid it just seems so much like the experiences she'd had. What a hoot and a half. SY: That's hilarious. CT: We're not going to let her hear this. Sorry, sorry. SY: You should buy her a copy of Blueberries for Sal and send it to her in the mail [laughs]. CT: Golly isn't that funny. SY: It's one of my favorite children's books it's lovely, yeah [laughs]. CT: Oh I am blushing here. SY: It's so funny. Okay so that's the forties at that point? CT: Yeah and then we went to high school and we worked hard and we had 2 or 3 good teachers, but some hm-hm. Oh Latin, my mother insisted we take Latin because she majored in German in college and she thought Latin was absolutely essential that everybody have lots of Latin. Because it was so good to help you figure out what all the words in other. To this day playing Words with Friends I'll give Pauline a French word and she'll say, "No you know you can't do that." But so we took French and we took lots of Latin in school and we had a French tutor whose name was Madam DeBesey and she was a French refugee of sorts, who made us come to her house and have tea and crackers after school one day a week. And have conversational French. It's so awkward you know, but we both learned a good deal. So that when I actually went to live in France I just turned on my high school years and was able to manage. SY: So your family wasn't part of the military. It doesn't seem like the military was part of your upbringing. CT: Oh, no, no except my father being in the Coast Guard Auxiliary. No, no we didn't know anything. But Russ' family was and when you talk to him he'll tell you about his dad and stuff. SY: And so when you and Russ started dating and seeing each other and it looked like it was going to get serious, you must have realized that you were probably going to be married to a man in the military. And what were your thoughts about that about that life? CT: Oh that's a good question. I don't--certainly in the high school years and in the first few years in college I just thought it was interesting that he was up here at Norwich going to school. I was in Northampton which isn't that far away and used to come up on the train to see him, and it was kind of fun except there were those fraternities. And I'm just too much of a stick in the mud or too, I don't know, I didn't find all this hilarity and all this drinking and stuff. I was just, I was just uncomfortabl,e it just didn't suit me. And so we became friends with several couples literally who were married and we were just 18-19 years old, but who were married and lived a more somber life here in the, you've 12 heard them talk about people who lived in the trailers down where Kreitzberg Library is. And some of these people who were, I was more comfortable with because they were more staid I suppose. And but we used to do things with the fraternity too. Russ had a good time working with them and we came up here, Junior Week was so much fun where they had polo game matches. SY: Can you pause for a second? Because I realizing your chair is making noise. CT: Oh yes I squeak this chair. SY: Let's just switch out the chairs is that possible? CT: Okay, sure. SY: Because I don't want because it's squeaky yeah. CT: I never even noticed it. SY: Yeah I didn't notice it until a little a while ago. Do you want me to move it or you got it? CT: No, no I've got it. Let's try that one. That's a newer one, give it a wiggle first and see. Better? SY: Quieter, way quieter [laughs]. CT: Yeah these are pretty old chairs. Alright good, I'll try not to. SY: Oh don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. I just thought you know why not get a less squeaky chair. Okay alright so you're coming up, so do you remember your first impressions of Norwich? CT: Not really, but one of things I really miss terribly is how beautiful Central Street was. When I came here Central Street was an arch of the most gorgeous trees all over the top and they took down the last of them, the one between the president's house and the next door just this spring. Beautiful trees. It was a very pretty place in the right weather. One of the times I came up here we've got a marvelous picture somewhere of me getting off the train and being met at the station downtown with the, by Russ and our friend Jim Ricker who was in, he also went to high school with us, and he was there too. So Jim came down too and a band from the university to meet the girls getting off the bus, ah, off the train. And I thought that was pretty swift you know. We always, the women in those days dates did not stay in the dorms [laughs] heaven forbid! We stayed with people around town and Russ can tell some funny stories about trying to get dates, places for me to stay because of course his father had gone here and his mother had come up to visit him and these people all remembered his dad because Dad Todd was a terrific dancer and they all thought this was fun to have Tommy Todd's son, you know, now coming to see him. So I got to know a few people who lived in town that way because I stayed at their house. It was fun. I was glad when put do--I was glad when they closed down the 13 fraternities it didn't make sense it and we still know people who fuss at it at with us and Russ just nods his head and said, "What can you do you know, it's how it is." SY: Change tradition, grumble, grumble. CT: Yeah. SY: Yeah. CT: But and you see that was talking about too and I'm talking about the changing tradition how it bothers me in another way when it's something that affected me more such as what goes on in Army life. It's just hard as you get older. It is. SY: It is hard, yeah change is hard. Okay so you would come up and you would stay with people in town? CT: Right. SY: And you would, oh so Junior Week you were talking about Junior Week. CT: Oh yes I had, let's see they had polo matches, which were great fun to watch. They had equestrian fancy riding, what do you call that? Dressage. They had all kinds of basket--not basketball, baseball games and other things that were really fun to do, as well as a dance. But the dances were really big time, they would pay somehow to have very big bands come here - Artie Shaw and all these people. Do you know who the Ink Spots were? Now the Ink Spots, I never saw them, but apparently they did come to Norwich once because as we speak somebody on behalf of the museum is trying to buy a poster that says the Ink Spots are coming to Norwich University. SY: I interviewed a guy two weeks ago, I'm blanking on his name, super nice man lives in town. Northfield, I mean Norwich graduate, who or I don't know if he graduated but he was at Norwich for a couple of years ,and he was in a band that played all the time during that period of time. CT: Oh I'm sure. SY: But I'm sure you know him but I can't remember his name right now. CT: I'm glad to hear you say you have the same trouble because I really can't remember a lot of these people's names. My vision and mentally I can see so many of these people and what fun it was. SY: Ha-Hammond? Hammond is his last name I think. He's in town, yeah but he was he played the saxophone and he played at all of these events on campus. CT: I'm sure. SY: Yeah. CT: I don't think….14 SY: Who knows? CT: I don't know that name. SY: Okay so you're at Smith during this time and what's your vision when you're at Smith of what your future's gonna look like. Are you thinking like when I graduate, were you thinking when I graduate I'm gonna get married, when I graduate…? CT: No I wasn't. Now that's interesting because Russ was always a part of my life from the time I met him. I think in a different way than most people get married so quickly to each other. He was just, I knew so much about him and his mother and his father and his brother and his sister-laws. But I also knew that somehow I needed to do something. I wanted to do something before I got married because in those days once you got married you probably weren't going to have a career. I don't know that I put it in words or said I wanted a career, (oh dear there's the rain) but I did want to, I guess try my skills. I guess maybe that's what I was thinking. So when it was time for me to graduate I majored in sociology with a lot of economics which I wasn't so good at, a lot of French, a lot of English literature. But the best courses I'll just don't mind telling anybody I ever took at Smith or anywhere else were art appreciation my senior year and music appreciation my French year. Those have lasted me so well so well. I oh well that's another whole story but so I always say to people I know going to college, don't just focus on what you might do for a career there's so much more to learn, don't sell yourself short. SY: That's what the liberal arts are about, developing yourself, right? CT: That's right yeah. Oh that art course was fabulous. Well anyway the upshot of all this is, so it's time for me to graduate and my sister however has still got another year. she's two years younger. But she was just a year behind me in school. So she was at Smith too and my father had died so I went into the--we all has appointments with somebody in the administration. Her name was Mrs. Mindel, but I don't know what her title was. And she said, "What are you going to do when you graduate?" I said, "Well I don't know for sure but there's a course at Radcliffe I'd really like to go to, a one year program in business administration. It is essentially the first year of the Harvard Business School which does not accept women as you know. But it's very much the same thing and I just would really love to do that and see if I can get some skills there that I could use." And she said, "Okay, let me think about this." So she called me back and she said, "Here's the deal," she said, "I'm going to call your mother and I'm going to suggest that if she will pay for you to go to this program at Radcliffe, I will give your sister full room and board and tuition for her senior year at Smith." What she was doing was giving me a graduate program. And they did. SY: Wow and I wonder….what an interesting arrangement because she wanted. CT: And my mother was just thrilled. She wanted me to have that opportunity. SY: That's great! 15 CT: It is--I have never heard of anything like it. SY: Me neither. CT: And I said, "really?!" And I know that the course I went to was nowhere, it was nothing dollar wise, I don't know what my mother paid but it was nothing like. But she knew, she knew that I was, that the family was having trouble financially and that we would've, they would have seen that Anne went, she would have finished, we would have found a way. So, "oh great," I said so off I went to be a bridesmaid in 2 or 3 weddings the way you'd often do it after in those days after college. And started in August at this program. Lived in Cambridge on Brattle Street. It was just a wonderful experience, learned how to write a one page memo that told, said everything you wanted to in you know 3 paragraphs. I just learned so much a lot about personnel work a lot about accounting. SY: Were you in classes with the men in the MBA program? CT: Oh no, no, no. We weren't even supposed to talk to them. No, no, no. SY: How did they make that clear to you? They said no talking to them or no interacting? CT: No, one of my classmates eventually, Jan Campbell eventually married the guy she met there, no. It was just. We were on the Radcliffe campus which was on Garden Street, do you know that area on Garden Street? And I lived at 69 Brattle Street and we had, we fixed our own breakfast, had lunch at the dining facility that was on campus, and then took turns fixing dinner. There were 9 of us that lived - I can make something for 9 in a flash - that lived in this house. And then the rest of the students who did not live in this house of which there were another maybe 10 or 12 lived at home or boarded somewhere else. But they were people that, I was the only person, there were two of us from Massachusetts. Everybody else was from another state. There were woman who were old as 30 [chuckles] old ladies. There were people who had majored in all kinds of different things, and the jobs they went onto afterwards were fabulous. One of my classmates had a seat on Wall Street. She was fabulous, Marilyn whatever her name was. And people worked for Bergdorf Gord-Goodman, Bergdorf Goodman as a buyer. Ah Jane, became the alumni, alumni director of Radcliffe before it amalgamated with Harvard. Interesting people. And it was a fabulous year. We had classes for a while then we had the first internship program, and I was sent to a--if I say Raytheon it was, it may have been Raytheon factory where I assembled the starters in the ends of a fluorescent tube. Did you even know there was one there? [laughs] Ah I am not dexterous. I never was dexterous and I tell you my experience on an assembly line where dexterity counted was so interesting. Because I didn't, I was not the star, I was the one that was holding them back. I was the bum. I was the rich girl from the college who was interfering, and the task was to win over my place in this --you know. Nobody said this, but that was the idea, to see what I could do in a situation like this. And it turned--and in the midst of this Russ has graduated from college and gone into the Army, and in the midst of this he came home to say good-bye to everybody when he went to Korea. And those were pretty bad scary days 16 so it was kind of a tough month in lots of ways. So he went off and I finished the st--this job and then went back and had some more classes and then in the spring this whole bunch of us got sent down to New York City where I worked for B. Altman which is, you remember which was a big. I had wonderful time doing that. I worked in their personnel office interviewing employees who had grievances and all kinds of things like this. It was very interesting. SY: And so you were living in New York on your own? CT: Well we, but we all had to live in a female hotel. Did you even know there was such thing? On 34th Street. And we lived there, just for a month. We were just there for a month and then we came back and had some more classes and finished up, I suppose in June. Meanwhile the recruiters are coming out and looking to recruit some of us and I got a job offer to be a personnel assistant at Mill Parr Incorporated which was an electronics research firm in Alexandria, Virginia. Well I knew what research was. But electronic research was really, I had no idea what they were talking about. It was such an experience. So I moved down to Virginia because I had a good friend who lived there and I could stay with Betty. And eventually worked there until Russ came home from Korea and we were married not too long afterwards. But it was a wonderful experience. SY: Do you want to get some water? CT: Yeah I think I'll just have sip here. SY: So do you remember -- did you see him off before he went for Korea? Do you remember, did you talk about if he didn't come back? Like what were the conversations? CT: Oh no, nope, no. He took me out to dinner at a local hotel, Hawthorne Hotel in Salem, which is nice hotel. And we had gone a lot of times I guess, well I don't know. But I just remember that we sat there and looked at each other and no we didn't. And I think we both knew that it was a go but we just had to wait. And I had told him before and he had asked me a million times to marry him and I said, "no, no, I got things to do, I got things to do." And I said, "I've done some things, you know, I'm good." I just had to fulfill that part of me I guess is what it comes down to and talking to you about it helps me clarify for myself what I was doing. I was just needing to know who I was, I could do things, I could succeed, not only academically but I could succeed when you put that thing to work. If not in the eyes of everybody but for myself I knew that I was good to go, you know, I could do things. SY: Yeah you had to live on your own in the world for a little while. CT: Yeah, and my mother who interestingly enough had gone down to Smith too and graduated in 20-in 1913. She was determined that both my sister and I would have that background, you know, that we'd be able to be on ourselves if we needed to be that we could be strong women, yeah. SY: Yeah it's important to know.17 CT: Yeah. SY: You never gonna know what's gonna happen in life and she'd certainly had enough upsets in her life to know that you needed to be able to make it on your own. Um, I had a question that I just lost. Okay so you're living in Alexandria by yourself, are you guys engaged at that point? CT: Nope. Nope. Russ called me from Kor--no not from Korea from Japan. They had R&R in Japan and he called me up and said he would be home on the (I don't know--I've forgotten it was January something) I said great and he said, "Well would you come to New York and meet me?" His parents by then had moved and were living in Scarsdale, New York. And he said, "Come, you know, spend the weekend at the folks." I said, "I will and let me know when," and he said, "I will." And we just talked a little bit. And said, well that's what happened. I guess we were past having to really verbalize a lot you know? We knew what we were doing. We just had, I had to grow up, time had to pass. People would say, "How could you date somebody for so long?" and I said, "Well we didn't date exclusively," We--oh he used to date a friend of mine, not a friend, a woman I knew that I couldn't stand, and I swear he dated her just to make me mad, you know. It was alright. and I dated this guy Jim Ricker a couple of times and he was practically engaged to somebody else. It didn't matter. It was something else. And I dated some guys from MIT who were a funny bunch. We just needed to have some experiences before we settled down is what it comes to. SY: But it sounds like you also knew that that was eventually where you were going. CT: Yeah. SY: Yeah. Oh this is what I was going to ask. In his oral history interview he talks about how he was kind of messing up and not doing so well in school at first and how you were like "you get it together, or we're done." Is that true? CT: Yeah it's true. Let's see when that was. I don't know exactly but it was in the summertime and I was staying at my grandmother's house which because they had what they called a maid's room upstairs. They used to have, they used to have full time help of course nobody did then. A wonderful bathtub with claw feet you know. But anyway so I was staying there. So he came down and we went out to play tennis one afternoon and we were hitting balls around and I finally said to him, "You know if you don't settle down and get some good grades and make some sense out of going to college," I said, "I just am not going to marry a loser. This is just ridiculous, you know you've just got to." And he just [sounds of bickering] and he was furious. He was mad and I was mad and he went home. He went back to New Hampshire or wherever he came from and then after that he's always done well academically. Because he just, he was acting like Maggie like our granddaughter I told you about. He was just having "such a good time." SY: At those fraternities? CT: Yeah. And in the military part of it. He really liked that, you know. 18 SY: Yeah. So okay, so you've been working on your own, right? You get married and suddenly your whole life changes. So what's your new life like? How do you learn what you're supposed to be doing? What the expectations are being married to him? What's his rank at that point? CT: Second lieutenant. SY: Second lieutenant, okay. CT: Or maybe first, he may have been a first lieutenant by the time we've, yeah he was. He'd gotten promoted in Korea. See he was over there during the worst of Korea and he…. SY: And did you know what was going on with him over there? CT: He wrote letters all the time. SY: And were they honest? CT: No, no not really, no. Just as well. He had a classmate that was killed you know? Somebody from Norwich, Pete DiMartino, maybe his name was. Be sure to ask him to tell you sometime because we should remember that. No not really. I just trusted him. I wasn't, he's been in a lot of bad scrapes and I never really have worried about him. I just trust him to know what to do. He has more common sense than most people I know, and he wouldn't try to second guess something, he'd do what was right. And he'd rather do what's right and fail and do what's wrong, you know. And he had a strong sense of doing the right thing and he did. Has he told you about how he won a Silver Star? SY: No. I haven't but I haven't interviewed him yet, so I've read other people's interviews. CT: But do make, be sure that he does tell you that. Because he never tells people. He won a Silver Star in Korea at a very young man. SY: So okay, so you're, where do you get married? CT: Oh where'd we get married? We got married in Beverly at home. At the church around the corner where I grew up. And some of these same people that I told you I had known in kindergarten were bridesmaids, plus Russ's sister who's a bit younger, then my sister too. It was really nice, it was the kind of wedding people had then where we had the wedding at the church and then walked back to the house and had a reception in the backyard with beautiful garden that we discovered florists will help you make if your garden isn't looking so well and you want to have a party. You call the florist and they bring in big pots of things and dig them in. Most gorgeous garden you ever saw. It was all gone the next day or the day after they just dug. It was fabulous and yeah, we had a good time. We went on a honeymoon down to Cape Cod where some other cousins had a cottage at the beach at a tow--place that's now called New Seabury but I know it's near Barnstable I think. But anyway we went there and had a nice time. And then we drove 19 out to Fort Knox and I'll tell you that summer I had been hot in my life but nothing like that humidity, you know? I thought this place is the pits. One of the wedding presents, he'd love to tell you this story. One of the wedding presents we got was a hand mixer, but it was so hot in that house he said, "I'm going to take the hand mixer and I'm gonna make us a window fan." I said, "Russ you cannot make a window fan out of a hand mixer," and you said, "You watch me." I don't know what he did. It had do with baking pans and ice cubes and the motor from this poor little hand mixer which can turn two little beaters. Well we laughed so hard we almost died laughing. But it helped not at all, but he had a great time thinking he could fix it for me you know. SY: Taking care of you that way. It's very sweet [laughs]. CT: I have learned to say when he tells me about a new invention, "ah I don't think so." [both laugh] He's usually right. He fixed something yesterday. He's a good fixer. It has to do with being so practical and having such good common sense. I don't ever fix anything I just "oh look it's broken," you know. SY: So what did you do during the day because he was working on the base? What were you doing? CT: What did I do? SY: During that time….? CT: Gosh I don't know. We lived next door. Well one of the fun things we lived next door to young George Patton and his wife Joanne who we have been so fond of all these years. And well that's one of the things I did now come to think of it. Joanne had gone to fancy place for her honeymoon, so I think that is not a good thing to do. She'd gone I think they had gone I think to Bermuda. I think they'd gone to Bermuda and she had gotten rheumatic fever. I think that's it. I think it was Bermuda but I may be wrong but I think so. And so she had to go to the hospital because she was really sick. Well the hospital was not air conditioned naturally. So one of the things that her husband George who had no common sense you may know, he decided that we would provide her with cold drinks and it would be nice if I could help with this. I said sure. So he had a pitcher and I, we still have one like this, a pitcher that has an insert so you put ice cubes in the middle and then you. So about every so often I had to run over and change her ice cubes [laughs] but I was glad to do that. I really liked her and I still do. She was a good, she's almost 3 years younger than we are, maybe more. She'd just graduated from college when they were married. Oh so many funny stories about them. Gosh, well anyway we had a good time. I also had this friend, this Jane Nutting that I mentioned before, who I'd known from before and she was my friend. And there was a girl named Ann something lived across the street who was pregnant and that was kind of fun watching her because we were all pregnant because that's what you did then. SY: So you were pregnant? 20 CT: I was pregnant right away. Char—Tom was born in April, so. But I didn't feel sick or I didn't have any problems for a while, all through the summer. And then I came down with something that I still have because it's a really funny disease. It's called erythema nodosum which you may never heard of because most of the doctors I've run into also say they never heard of it. But it's an allergic reaction to catching a cold in the spring or the fall. In that first fall I caught a cold and then my legs, and I didn't have it as much in my arms as on my legs would break out in huge areas of black and blue. And every time a new area popped out my temperature would rise and I would look like I was sick. Well I wasn't sick it was just until that black and blue got established. Then my temperature went down and I went on my merry way. But because I was pregnant they were sure something dreadful was wrong with me. Well it wasn't and somebody finally must have checked in the medical dictionaries and found out what this was, and decided not to worry about me because I had it then and I've probably over the years had it 5 or 6 times. Which is in the spring and in the fall if I get a cold I make every effort to get rid of it right away because I don't want to go into the next stage. And I haven't had one now for a long long time. But that was that was part of it and so the first Christmas that we were married Russ's sister Jane, who was young, a bit younger, was teaching school in New York state somewhere and she said, "I think I'll come down and spend Christmas with you so you won't be so lonely." Wonderful. So she came and flew down to Kentucky and we got her a date with a British foreign officer who was there attending a class, who fell head over hands in love with Jane. Jane was appalled really his name was Anthony, "really," she said. He kept saying to her, "Oh I want to take you back to England with me. You'll love my mom." My mom, and her woollies and her tea and I don't know, Jane was, she kept saying, "I'll stay until Christmas, but I got to go home." We had parties, lots and lots of parties in those days in the neighborhood next door and parties were just people getting together and bringing your own beer, you know, and maybe somebody would get some crackers and cheese out but no big deals. And then the units would have parties and you'd get invited to the post to a party. Meanwhile Russ has gotten to be the aide-de-camp to the commanding general, partially because George Patton's mother, Mrs. Patton - darling, darling lady - had come to visit. And one of the funniest memories I have of that early summer, Joanne's in the hospital with rheumatic fever. I'm running around trying to take Mrs. Patton to where she wants to go. She doesn't have a car. So every time she needs to go somewhere, "Oh Carol would you mind running me?" "No, I'd be glad." So one day she came over to our house and she said, "I am just too exhausted, so can I just sit in here and visit with you?" I said, "Certainly, Mrs. Patton." Well my mother and aunt had given me an old two-seater couch that must have belonged to I don't know who, whose springs had long since lost their elasticity. She was a little tiny lady, she sat down and disappeared. So that she was sitting with her knees up around her -- you know how people do it? I thought, "Oh this is so bad!" Well I said, "wouldn't you like to sit," I had one decent chair, "Wouldn't you like to sit here in my wing chair would you like to sit here? I would be so happy to you know." "Oh, no, no, this is fine." So she sat there until Russ came home from work for lunch. Because they came home for lunch and he said, "Oh hi Mrs. Patton, what are you 21 doing in the hole there? Can I help you up?" "No, I'm fine." So she said, "What's up with you?" and he said, "Well they just they asked me if I want to be aid to a General Collier." And she said, "Oh good idea, aren't you excited about." And he said, "I don't know if I should be doing that or not." And she said, "You should, you should, it's a good thing to do." She said, "Go upstairs and put on a clean uniform while Carol gets your lunch on, I'm going home now and you just be your natural self. You'll get chosen." Well of course that's exactly what happened and he did it for the next year or so. But I'll never forget her sitting there in that yellow couch with her knees, oh how I felt bad. But she was always friends with us ever since, and when Tom was born she sent him a lovely baby present. And well then she went home and Joanne Patton's mother came who also is a general officer's wife but instead of being the kind you'd put in your broken couch. She was Mrs. Holbrook and she was a bit fancier. By then I'd caught on, you see, and I managed to keep her sitting in the good chair. But she used to come over all the time and it was the same sort of thing. She'd come over and say, "I do need to run down to the PX," or "My friend Peggy so and so is having a coffee would you mind dropping me off?" well it was lucky that Russ - I don't know how I got the car, Russ must have gone in with a friend knowing that I needed to, because we lived about 2 miles from where the guys were working. Oh it was a hoot but that was one of the things I did that summer and that maybe is how I learned about the community you know come to think of it. This is such a good experience for me too, I'm thinking about these things that are more critical. Maybe that's how I learn this is what you do when people need you, you fill in and do what you need. And it's fun as long as you, I didn't have anything else to do you know. That was good and I wore all my, I can remember wearing one of the dresses I had from my trousseau, a really pink really nice beautiful cotton dress and I decided to put it on one day because we were going to drop off Mrs. Holbrook I guess at an event. She was going to a coffee and could I come back at x hours let's say 11:30 to take her home again. Okay. Don't--nobody says would you like to come in, or I'd like to introduce you to my friend, no no. So I come back at the appropriate hour and I park where she told me to park and I wait and I wait and I wait. By and by all the ladies come out, the coffee it's over, and they're leaving and getting into their cars and she walks across the street and interestingly enough her hostess--oh I can see her now--she walked with her. They came over to the car and Mrs. Holbrook jumps in but her hostess says, "Oh Carol," she said, "You're so kind to take," what's her name home and all this. I said, "I'm very glad to do that," and she said, "And what does your husband do in the Army? And what does your husband do in the Army my dear?" And my dear cleverly remembered and I said, "Well he's working as an assistant instructor at the Armored School," or whatever it was. And she said, "Oh that is so interesting. My husband works for the same Armored School." Course he was the commander, you know, and she said, "I was hoping he has a wonderful time with…" She was so gracious as compared to what the other side was doing. I thought even then I thought "ha ha this is what makes a difference" you know. She was so gracious and she was so sweet to me when she had no reason to be, you know?22 SY: And do you think she said something to her husband too? Do you think like your relationships with women and other wives in some ways helped your husband's career? Is that the way it worked? CT: If so I don't know. I don't know, maybe, maybe, but I don't know. SY: If you'd been rude it might have hindered his career? CT: Well that's right. "Oh boy he married a dud," yeah. And in a way, in a way it was interesting because most of the lieutenant's wives were college graduates. Most were. I'm trying to think of anybody who wasn't. Either that or heiresses, a couple of them were really very wealthy ladies who whenever they had a party served champagne, yeah champagne this is [inaudible]. But that's right but that marriage didn't last either that's interesting. She's the only person I ever knew who got infected by dropping a pickle, a pickle fork that she was polishing on her foot when she had no shoes on. It went [makes dropping sound] and she didn't pay any attent--I thought now that is a odd thing to happen to somebody. SY: That's a strange injury. CT: But I haven't forgotten it have I? SY: And you're careful with your pickle forks I bet. CT: Never polish a pickle fork is the answer. SY: Clearly. Alright note to self. CT: If you could even find one. SY: Yeah I was just gonna say. CT: Yeah, long time ago. This is way back in the 19, early 1950s and the Army was a different game than it is now. It was a different game. It was, it was always good that Russ had graduated from Norwich. Always, it always was even so long ago. And now it's really, but when Russ got to be a general officer he was the first one in years and years and President Hart was so thrilled because they hadn't had anybody promoted in a long time. SY: Yeah. Okay so then where do you go next? I mean we don't need to go through every one of your placements. CT: Oh I can't. SY: But I guess where were the places you liked best? And what were the places you liked least? CT: And people ask me that too and I can't help but say the same thing that has sort of been my whole life. I seem to be pretty adjustable or limp I don't know which it is. But wherever I am at the time for the most part I'm fine, I'm just fine. Ah we had a really bad 23 experience - our Tom was born as I said the next April, cute little guy and he was fine and life went along until the spring when he was (in January he would have been what 8 or 9 months old) and he was learning to crawl. And I was in the kitchen, I don't know, just fixing something for dinner. Russ was reading the newspaper, watching the baby, and the baby crawled across the floor. We didn't even know he could crawl this much you know, we just had plunked him down. He crawled across the floor and I had started a coffee pot. We used to call them a Silex pot, they had [oops] two sort of bulbs, the water went "brrrp" went up into the top and then dripped down. And I had started a pot of coffee for our dinner and he heard this noise I'm sure, crawled across thought: "Hmm what is this?" and saw the cord hanging down, you know, like this. Put his hand on the cord and it broke open on the back of his neck. Ah we picked him up rushed him to the hospital and they had moved the emergency room the week before or something. Of course we didn't, who pays attention to stuff like, so we got to the hos--we got to the right place and the person, the doctor on duty was a dentist. Nicest man you'd want to know but he was no surgeon and he said, "I'm going to I'm going to have to cut off this beautiful handmade sweater this child has got on." I said, "Why not, oh yes." He said, "I'll ruin the sweater." I said, "Ruin the sweater," you know. He was in the hospital -- it was January 13. He was in the hospital in the hospital for about--his birthday, probably until the first of April. Had numerous, not transfusions, but trans--what do they call it? When they take your skin from one place put it….? SY: Transplants CT: Transplants, numerous transplants. He was just a baby. They had never worked on baby before at Fort Knox. The doctor was terrific, the surgeon, he got on the telephone with the same burn center I told you about before where Steven was in San Antonio. This is 50 years before and tells, says, "Okay, when you go to do the transplant you get on the phone with me. I'll take you through it step by step and you can do this, you can do this." And if you just see my son right now without a shirt on all you'd see is a ring around his back like this where they hooked on the transplant. Everything took and he's fine. He's never had a minute's problem with his, they took all the skin off his chest and put it on his back. They took it all off his thigh and put it on his arm. This arm unfortunately after he'd been, it turned out alright, but after he'd been in there awhile all bandaged up with catheter tubes running though it to keep his wounds soaking wet so they could work on him. They said to me, "Say Mrs. Todd. Funny little thing on your son's arm," he said, "What is that?" I said, "I don't know," "What do you mean what do you mean what is it?" he said, "It's looks as though he might have had a vac" I said, "Oh yes he had his vaccination done just before this happened." And they said, "Well you are the luckiest people in the world because it has festered and scabbed over, and all this water running through it has not opened the scab. If it was he'd have generalized vaccinia all over his whole body." But he didn't, he didn't, worked out fine. He barely has a tiny little mark there now. He's a great big 60 year old man with, you would never know. It was just if and they were so good to us and we stayed in a private room in that hospital at Fort Knox with him. One of us was with him all the time except when people began to say "We can 24 stay with him. We can keep him happy." He was-he is a very good natured person. He still is, he's very patient and even as a baby he would just lie there and look at, you know, we had a thing what do you call it, twirly thing over his head so he could…. SY: A mobile… CT: Mobile, yeah and he had a music box that he loved. I bet I used to wind that thing endlessly and as long as there was a little music going he'd be quiet. SY: You must have been beside yourself though with worry? CT: We were, we were, yeah. But people were very supportive. He was working for General Collier and Mrs. Collier used to come and babysit him. She said, "I'll stay with him. Go get your haircut or something. Run around the block. Get some fresh air. Do something." It was a long winter. And yeah, yeah. And then he came home from the hospital. He could not sit up he could not stand up of course. SY: Oh because he missed all those developmental milestones? CT: Within 2 weeks he was not only sitting up he was pulling up and he was walking in a month and he was, he just made it all up in no time at all. It was amazing. SY: And I assume, I mean he was so young he doesn't have any memories of that time? CT: None. SY: Okay. CT: The only thing he remembers is the last doctor we saw during this said to us, "When he is," I think 12 was the age, I remember 12, "I want you to take him to a plastic surgeon and have them check out these sites and there may be a place where they'll feel it needs to be repaired." They said, "We can't guarantee this will last him his lifetime." But he said, "Take him and the guy they'll know." So we were living in Germany at the time and we took him to a, wherever this was, Stuttgart to the hospital where the surgeon was, and explained the story to him. And he said, "Okay. Okay little guy come on over here. Can you climb on my lap? Sure." He loved to climb up into your lap and they played and talked and you know made his arms and legs go and he said, "If I throw a ball down the hall, will you run and get it?" he said, "Sure," so they threw it down the hall and he ran down. He was not that old, he was near 6 because he was still, and he ran down the hall picked up the ball and came back and the guy said, "Everything he's got, every muscle moves the way it's supposed to. He's fine," He said, "There's no indication to do anything." He said, "if the time comes when he gets psychotic about it, and hates the fact." He hasn't looked at his back, how often do you look at your back? Like never. He has no more and his legs and place and his chest they grew back, it all grew back. He's fine. Isn't that funny? It's wonderful. We used to say to each other that if we ever had to pay for this in a private hospital Russ would have had to get out of the Army and get a big paying job or something because the bills must have been huge. 25 SY: But they took care, it was all taken care of? CT: It was 7 dollars a week to keep him in the hospital because you had to pay for the food. Well he ate 2 jars of chopped liver, I don't know what it was they were eating you know. We were worried. On the other hand, you know I think it had gone past, we couldn't worry anymore and we had to have faith that they were gonna and I think having a good attitude helps in all these things. SY: You don't have time to be filled with anxiety. You just have to do it. CT: No, no, that's right. SY: Yeah. CT: And and neither of the girls ever had anything serious so we were fortunate, yeah. SY: Now, Phyllis Greenway has some crazy stories of you know of her husband you know her being I don't remember where they were maybe it was Fort Knox and her husband being assigned to Hawaii and her having to fly across the country with all of her stuff and the baby and do all this stuff by herself. Did you have experiences like that of just sort of having to manage these moves alone? CT: Oh yeah lots. Yeah. The first move overseas Russ had gone in the fall and I went in probably in mid-December and took Tom. He was, let's see. Yeah and he was fine by then. This was, but he had the cutest little red snowsuit with a little head and we, he and I went down to Fort Hamilton which is Staten Island maybe, and went out with a group of Army wives in a chartered flight. But we swear that the pilot had a date in Paris because we flew to Paris and they put the plane down and it was 6 or 8 hours before he came back. And we thought, "Just a minute, just a minute, we need to go Heidelberg, get over here!" and then we flew on to Frankfurt or wherever it was, yeah. But yeah and then lots of times when we moved I moved I would be -- they seemed to have a way of finding they have to be somewhere else when the. But the one thing I insisted on was that somebody else was gonna do something else with the equipment like the TV and anything else that had a cord that I didn't know how to wind up and put an elastic around sort of thing. I said, "If you can't do it, you got to get one of your buddies to come and help me. I'm just not gonna fool with this stuff." And it got more and more complicated as the older we. And the last person who ever was the one who got tapped to come and do that was John Greenway. When he was Russ's deputy he came and organized all my stuff when it was, when we were moving from Fort Hood to Georgia I guess to Fort MacPherson, yeah. SY: That's funny you guys have known each other for a long time. CT: Oh yeah we knew them well before that. Phyllis is a wonderful cook. I hope you've talked to her about that. SY: I have actually. And she's made motions about having me over to dinner. So I should remind her of that. And she has all that beautiful French cookware too [laughs].26 CT: She does and she's a good cook. SY: I believe that we talked about cooking a little. I'm trying to think because there's this, you know there's so much to talk about here and I don't want to skip over important milestones but we should also probably get to Norwich huh? CT: I think so. Well time passes [both laugh] and um let's see…. SY: Oh well let's talk about volunteering. So you begin to take on this sort of professionalized volunteer role it seems like the Army started to recognize that what you were doing was critical. So could you talk about that? CT: That's absolutely true and I'm trying to think where we were. I think it was those years we lived in France, '63 to '66. We lived oh goodness this is so--I'm gonna have to write a book. So it was such an interesting thing. We lived on the French economy. Fortunately my lessons came swirling back standing me in good stead because our youngest Ellen went to French school, the words I didn't know she probably did which was handy. But we had, we lived in a really nice house. Odd situation but it was nice and you could walk to the over to post. And during those years there were lots of young enlisted people who lived in very difficult places. They didn't speak French, they didn't know the people, and the Army Community Services began to be formed to offer assistance. You had to come on post but there were buses that ran around the community that brought people and we taught things like how to run a, do a checkbook. We taught people very basic things - here's where to find out how to buy food, you know the things that you want, here are the words in French. If you can't get to the commissary and you do go to a, here are the things in a French grocery store that you can buy that are gonna be almost exactly like you'd buy at home if you buy this, you know. It's just very very basic things but even before that, even before I had Tom I had developed somehow a reputation of being somebody who could give talks to other groups of women about really simple stuff. And it started out being with Army etiquette. That was way back when, way way back before I had any children, that first year because I knew one of the colonel's wives. I don't know how well I knew Betty Chandler or how I knew her but I did know her and she said, "Well you know could you do this?" So I started giving these talks which has led me to feeling more comfortable addressing groups of people. Particularly if it's about something I know something about. Tough when you don't, but you can usually fake it some [laughs] and then call on so and so to fill in the gaps or something. But that's really how I started doing this and then time passes and I'm always volunteering to do something. Some things I loved doing, some things I was terrible at. I really really was not good at working in a hospital. I have to go to the hospital you have to make me well if I'm sick. I will be nice to, you know, but I don't want to be there. I really did not like being a Gray Lady but that's what they used to call them Gray Ladies. For one thing you had to wear these awful gray dresses. They were made of heavy, heavy cotton and every time you went it had to be starched and cleaned. Well I couldn't afford sending mine to the cleaners so the day before I went I'd spend, you know, starching and ironing this thing. Well the whole thing was absurd so that I decided that was no good. 27 But I could do things like teach somebody how to balance a checkbook. I could talk to people about the basics of baby care and this sort of thing, and so I was glad to do it. But I began to realize as many, many senior people did the longer you're in this game how great the need is help other people use volunteers well. And how important it is that volunteers be used with compassion and common sense so that the gift that they're giving you of their time and talents and everything else are maximized for their benefit and yours. Because when you go and do something as a volunteer for somebody and come home feeling disappointed or abused it's no good. It doesn't have to be that way and that's how I got into this volunteer administration role which eventually is what became the sort of the climax of my time doing this. I worked in thrift shops, I worked every sort of thing, organized all kinds of events in this sort of thing but the best thing I really think I did was begin to show them how important it was that the people who manage and lead volunteer programs have an understanding of some of the basics. Such as a volunteer needs to have a job description. A what? I said a job description. You don't need it be very long, it does not have to be complicated, but if you ask someone to do a task you have to know what the parameters of this job are. Ah amazing! Ah and because of this I wound up going with Joanne Patton as it turned out to Colorado to the University of Colorado at Boulder, and that's a wonderful place, to go through a summer program and I did it twice with her about how to help people become good volunteer managers. And that woman's name was Marlene Wilson and she wrote the first book ever for volunteer managers - and I think I've still got my tattered copy in there - in about 1980. And so it really was during the time that we were here that I began to do more and more of that. And I think that may be one of the contributions I made was generally to people I ran into I kept trying to say, "Let's get this straight. Exactly what are they supposed to do? How are you going to thank them down the road? Is there a chance that they could be the boss of this? They could be the team leader? Or no." Those things need to be thought through and you need to put the whole task in language that everybody feels comfortable with. SY: Yeah what was the assignment that the chief of staff gave you in Europe? CT: [chuckles] Well that's right. That was the last time, that was in late '70s before we came here in '82. They began to realize how important this sort of thing was, so they asked me to take this assignment to, on behalf of the Army, to go around the various places where Americans were stationed and talk about this with the commander and the commander's wife and anybody else would listen, and some of the volunteers to be sure people were having a good experience volunteering. And I wrote a quarterly newsletter for them about what was going in Bad--what's her name over here in Frankfurt or Heidelberg just sort of encourage people and just say we were all in this together and we're trying to make life better for all of us here as volunteers and it's worth it to do it. And you met with various levels of success but it was worth doing, it really was. SY: And did you also see gaps in the kind of Army infrastructure? CT: Oh yeah. 28 SY: Yeah, yeah, what did you notice? What did you? CT: I noticed that there would be places where the commander and his wife could care less about the situation. And perhaps there were needs for transportation for one thing, so that people who lived what we called on the economy, lived out in the community, could not easily get -- if the husband went off to a duty somewhere else or on the "into the field" as we used to say to do exercises, the wife would be stuck out in the. So we used to talk about setting up transportation networks, you know, could Mrs. X contact Mrs. Y and they could work out something together or not. Or do we need to work on finding some way that a bus goes around talks to people, yeah. That was one of them. But mostly there was a tremendous, very, very nice response to my interest. And because I was doing it sort of with a little bit of authori--I didn't mean authority, but people knew that they were supposed to listen. And I enjoyed doing that. And that made it very easy for me to move into the role that I had here because it's the same thing, or least it was the same thing. SY: And that's actually a question, how do you think you -- I mean the first lady of Norwich, the president's wife, that role of being sort of the president's wife - how did you conceptualize it? And how do you think you conceptualized it differently than the women who'd come before you? CT: I knew Marilyn Hart and we must talk about this again before we go further. I knew Marilyn Hart because they used to come and visit us a good deal. Wherever we were there would be Norwich events and often, I don't know often but enough that I felt like I really knew her. You know she's a really nice lady had 2 kids, got a son Matthew and a daughter whose name is I've forgotten I'm sorry to say. But and we would talk and visit I would take her on functions and things like that. And I knew darn well that I never could never fill the same function that she did. She had been a faculty wife. She had worked with him all the years helping him do things. I'm sure she corrected papers. I'm sure she did everything. She was really smart. But she had a fabulous memory a fabulous memory. I admired that so much. She would -- the receiving line he would be first and she would be second and any number of people, they could be students, they could be people from the State Department would come through, she would know who they were just from seeing them. And she would say to him, "Joe Smith, English class of '64, '64, he shoveled snow for you one time." And he would say, "Joe, remember the time you came and shoveled snow?" I could never do that. That wasn't, I couldn't do that. On the other hand she wasn't comfortable organizing a luncheon or saying, "I think we should do something or support." There was a woman here whose husband was the athletic director her name was Jen, his name was Wally Baines, her name was Jen Baines. And Jen wanted to have a faculty picnic twice a year. "Good. Let's do it." The Harts had the role in this, not of encouraging them and seeing people came and this sort of thing, but of sitting at the door with a checklist seeing who showed and who didn't show up. Well no matter what anybody thinks, no matter how much you might [inaudible] you gotta remember who showed and who didn't show up. It set things off in a bad note. So we29 said well we won't, we don't need to do that. So I'd say to Jen, "How many people you think are going to be there?" "Eighty-four." I said, "Eighty-four? Wow that's great. Just about everybody." I said, "Is everybody who might like to come, do they know about it?" She said, "Well I don't know about the people in physics." I said, "Well what should we ought to do?" I said. She'd say, "Well I ought to." "Or maybe you ought to call up somebody." I said, "I'll be glad to call up somebody just to be sure they know." That's nothing. That doesn't hurt anybody's feelings. I think I spent a lot of time sort of trying not to hurt people's feelings. SY: And easing things over, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah so that was a big part of your job, right? CT: Yeah it was, yeah. I'll tell you something else Marilyn Hart did which I think was amazing. She addressed a Christmas card to everybody on the University's list. I think there were 800 names on that list, not only people who worked here but people in town, people in Burlington. And the first year when they came to me at Christmastime and they said, "Here's your list," I said, "Give me a break here, what do you mean?" And they said, "No this is the job of the president's wife to address the Christmas cards." I said, "Then there won't be any this year. You don't want me doing it believe me you don't." They said, "Whose going to do it" and I said, "Don't ask me, I don't know. You'll have to figure it out." Since then somebody on the staff has just had to start addressing about in September. But you can do that, you know? You can address the envelopes anytime. SY: Yeah but that, you weren't, that wasn't the way you wanted to spend your time. CT: Oh I wasn't--I wouldn't even consider it yeah. SY: So talk about the role you did end up playing. The Peace Corps was pretty critical huh? CT: I wound up working almost working full time in lots of ways as a volunteer, because I was always a volunteer. It's what I did. SY: Though by the end you were getting paid, right? CT: Pardon me? SY: You were getting paid by the end, right? CT: Yeah, in a way. In a way. My hus--did I tell you? explain this to you? Yeah about how Russ took part of his salary and had it given to me instead. SY: So it was symbolic, but it seems important. CT: Well it, by that time it was to me, really, yeah. And I don't know how much the university knows about that. I, I don't care if they do or not. SY: It's the same money going to the same family I don't think it matters, but. 30 CT: Well it did because it helped my social security contributions. But not enough to do any difference. That was okay I was glad to--the whole business about the Peace Corps Prep Program started because I was very active in this Association for Volunteer Administration which was a national organization. Ah really a…a busy, a small organization, but a good organization for people who are in the same area, who are interested in making volunteerism not effective, effective is a good word for it is. And it was before we had national volunteering, before, it was when the Peace Corps was getting going, it was well before AmeriCorps and all this business was started. And these women met once a year and I eventually became the vice, one of the vice presidents for this and served on lots of committees I think because I come across as being efficient, reasonably efficient. And Chris Frankland who was the president asked me to fill out, fill in a second national role and I did that. And I really liked doing it, I liked the people I worked with. It isn't, the organization is now defunct. They made a big mistake in hiring an executive director that they didn't vet appropriately. The man wiped them out every single cent and disappeared and they never, they never could get going again. They had lost all their assets. SY: It's like Mr. Barry. CT: It is! it is! It's the same idea! It is the same idea! Oh my goodness, aren't you smart. I never thought of that. Ah yeah it is. Well anyway, but anyway so that's now defunct. But anyway, still I had these ideas that I should do this. But during the time that I was active in this association we had a national conference as we did each year, and I went and I honestly do not know whether it was in Buffalo or somewhere. But anyway someplace I'd never been and we were having a big luncheon and I was sitted, seated, next to one of the women who was to be a speaker whose name was Loret Miller Ruppe. And Loret Miller Ruppe was the head of the Peace Corps at that time and we were just [chatting sounds] you know just chit chatting, lady talk. And the speaker for the luncheon got up to speak and it was Father, Father Theodore Hesburgh who was the president of Notre Dame. And he essentially said he thought it was high time that higher education took on the role of training students to do volunteer work in the same way they chose to train young men and women to be part of the national service, part of the Army, Navy, Air Force, etcetera. And he said, it is just as much of a need for people to be trained to be good volunteers to head up volunteer organizations. I wish I had a copy of his speech, I never did, but that's essent--I listened to him I thought, "Oh my socks." Russ and I had talked about this ever and ever so many times since when he'd become president that one of roles he saw needed to be fulfilled, somebody needed to do something about the fact that the students who were not in the Corps, most of them at Vermont College in those days when we still owned Vermont but some of them down here in Northfield were not having the same opportunity to become leaders as the people in the Corps were. They were not being given that opportunity to do something beyond themselves, to stretch, to learn the outside world. And he said, he said "I don't know," he said, "I just don't know how to do that." And I said, "Well I don't know how do that either." 31 But when he, Father Hesburgh did, I thought, "I know how to do this. I've got this idea." And I turned to Loret Miller Ruppe and I said, "Ma'am I think Norwich could do that." She said, "Carol, Norwich would be a perfect place to do it. Do you think you can?" and I said, "I'll ask," and I said, "Please don't say anything and I'll go and call and see." So I called Russ, got him out of a meeting and I said, "Don't say anything just listen," and I said, "I need to tell Mrs. Ruppe if we're gonna try." And he said, "We will." He said, "I'll find a way, we will." Well it must have been just before a board meeting because the next time the board met they said, "If you want to try it, go ahead." Meanwhile back at Norwich we have somebody who's a vice president named Peter Smith. Do you know Peter? Who he is? He had run for Congress from Vermont. Well there's more to it than that but anyway and been defeated. No, wrong, he had become a congressman. He, I'm not sure about his career. He had either been in--no he hadn't been in Congress at that point, he had been the lieutenant governor of Vermont. And he had written a Ph.D. thesis on Vermont College which was terribly interesting for Russ to learn when he took on. He knew about Norwich when he took on the job, he didn't know. SY: Why, I wonder what his thesis was about? CT: About the fact that Vermont College had absorbed all those programs from Goddard which is about as far off block as Norwich is you know they're kinda [chuckles]. Well it was a big job to try and pull all this together, but we were giving it a go. So he said, so I called Russ and he said yes to it. The board said yes to it. Peter Smith meanwhile said, "Let me see what I can do about getting you a grant." Good thinking. He got us FIPSE grant, do you know what FIPSE? The Fed, now the Federal, no the Fund for the Improvement of Post-Secondary Education, Department of Education. If I was smart enough I could have told you the amount but I don't remember but he got us a grant to get started. Now if I had taken a salary we wouldn't have had much money left so I was, I didn't need anything. So we had some money and I made up out of whole cloth as best as I could a program that looked like ROTC training but wasn't, was focused on various on other things, which one of them was learning how to manipulate, to act in a culture that was not your own. This was one of the things and having appreciation for others, for other communities. And so it took a while to get this thing sort of organized and once I got a program sketched out I had to go before a committee of the faculty to get their approval. Can you imagine? I was a wreck, but I thought, "Okay I can do this." So I went before the committee and I made my little talk and do you know David Westerman? Oh Professor Westerman, David Westerman he's a geologist. But he's also the guy who is the head of the program at the University for Student Research. You guys really need to be aware of this. SY: Oh you know his name's been mentioned to me because he also collected some geology artifacts I think. CT: Oh I'm sure. SY: Yeah, okay. 32 CT: I think he goes to South America and brings home chips of stuff. I don't what he does. He is the most understanding, thoughtful, articulate. He's, I'm a big of David West--. David Westerman was on that committee and he said, "Well Carol, I'll tell you what, I think you've got some good ideas." He said, "You need to smooth it out a bit but I say you're a go." And he met with the rest of the committee and I said "What did they say?" "Oh sure, good, approved." And I thought, "Oh, he saved my life." I mean he just and then he was helpful in giving me some ideas. And what I'd really like to do is to, maybe another time when we get together is to get into your records, what it was the program looked like. It was a 2 year program for anyone who is not in the Corps. That's all you had to be, not in the Corps. You had to be any elsewhere. And you took classes and you did internship in the summer. And the internships were on Indian reservations. I can remember somebody went overseas on their own ticket to get into something, you know. I really have lost a lot of the details but I spent about 2 years maybe 3 working on this. And one of the big things I had to do which was very helpful was send reports into this FIPSE organization. They assigned a women, I'm sure I'll remember her name if I think of it long enough. She wanted a report from me every Friday. Well I couldn't do it. I finally got to every other Friday, you know you'd spent too much time writing the report then actually out doing something which got to be kind of old. But with their support we were able to get this thing rolling. We were able to hire former Peace Corps volunteers to act as professors. And one of them was Don Hooper. Does that mean anything to you? He lives here. Do you know Don and Alison Hooper? SY: You mentioned it to me, yeah. CT: They make the wonderful cheese, goat cheese, Chèvre. Well anyway I'm sure that somewhere I've got the list of who those people were. Then it got to the point where it had gotten too much and there was enough money left in the FIPSE pot to hire a director, which we did. And it worked reasonably well. But when my husband's time here was over and President Schneider came and things changed there was, I don't know how to put it, it just didn't work out anymore. And they had not been a big success. There hadn't been hundreds of students flocking to it. Every once and awhile you'll hear about somebody from the, from Norwich that goes into the Peace Corps. The Peace Corps itself is not what it was. It's nowhere near as near well-funded. They don't have the leadership of somebody like Loret Miller Ruppe. You know things change. But it wasn't a bad idea, it wasn't a bad idea. SY: No it's a really good idea. So because you know you can go into Peace Corps without previous training right? CT: Absolutely. SY: So this was just to create more effective Peace Corps volunteers? So it was sort of an auxiliary program to the Peace Corps training that would follow? Was it sort of like a? CT: Well no they weren't that interested in it but it was a way of encouraging people to do this kind of service, and to do it effectively. Yeah that's right. And there were people 33 that were int--there was a guy named Mike Kim and Michael Kim was one of these ones who went through it and he eventually became a priest interestingly. SY: I'm interviewing him next week. [interview pauses and resumes] SY: So what were we, what were we talking about? Oh yeah so another thing I read in your husband's oral history was that when you first got up here it must have been mud season, looking at the place you were like, "I don't know about this?" CT: Well of course I'd been up here a lot as a student. But then you're sort of rose colored glasses, you know. But the day that we drove up here to be interviewed for the job it was March at its most March-like, and as we came down the road, which was not this lovely access road we have now from 89. Oh no, twisty turny. There was a cow - did he tell you about this? There was a cow standing beside the side of the road behind a fence. Literally it was up to its udder in the mud and I thought, "Russell," I said, "We cannot live here. This is just awful." He said, "Oh for heaven's sakes. It's just one cow…" I said, and I thought to myself, "Okay, if…" I knew he wanted the job so much. He would have loved, he always hoped he could get the job to be the facilities manager here because he said, "I could love fixing it up." He said, "Never mind, we'll get a facilities manager to fix it up." He said, "Oh this is going to be so great." I thought, "Uh huh." So we came to the interview and we stayed in guest quarters where at the time where the infirmary is, not the new one the old one. And as I told somebody once long ago and I thought it was rather apt, it smelled like your grandmother's cottage after it had been shut up for the winter you know that awful musty [sniffing sound], "Oh it's getting worse here by the minute." And then Jackie and Jerry Painter who you don't know they live in Micminnville Oregon, he was the treasurer, they came and picked us up in their lovely new Buick and it made all the difference in the world. We had a wonderful, fun dinner and they had us in stitches laughing it was so friendly and nice and it was, I thought, "Okay, we can do this. This will be alright. We can clean up the guest quarters. We can do this." Then we were interviewed and I don't remember much about the interview except when we were all siting around. Nobody interviewed me much I don't think. I don't know what I did. But finally Ken Smith, who you don't know, he's dead now but and you wouldn't know. But nice, nice guy, said, "and now General Todd I see that you have no Ph.D." Russ said, "That is correct." And Ken Smith said, "and what do you intend to do about and when will you be getting your Ph.D.?" And my husband said, "I intend to do nothing and the answer is never. Any more questions? No, alright we'll move on." But Ken Smith became his dear, dear friend just a wonderful. Ken Smith could write one of those citations on a, on a, on some sort of a document or when you get an honorary degree, the citation, oh they were wonderful. His use of the English language was just gorgeous. I really loved him. He was great. But anyways so I really didn't like it much so I said, "Okay," if you get the--Oh and then we went to New York City to some lovely club I don't know where, to be interviewed by the board who was meeting there too to interview us the very same weekend because we had just come home from Europe to do this. Fortunately I had new Blylie suit so I was feeling very fine. I always bought a 34 new suit or a blouse if I was going to be in an interview and it seemed to help and I do advise that for interviews. So we went to New York and we got--and Russ was starving, you know if I'd get nervous I don't care if I ever eat. He just gets hungry and hungry. And so we went there and went into this interview and these people were all finishing their lunch and they said, "Have you had any lunch?" Russ said, "No, I haven't." And they said, "Let's get a menu for the Todds." I have no idea what I had, no idea at all. But he decided he'd have French onion soup. Can you imagine eating French onion soup? Nope. I thought, "Oh my God can you imagine so stupid to have?" well of course he managed to get the job and eat the soup at the same time. But it was, I thought, "French onion soup! Idiot!" [Laugh] So that and when we left that interview I knew it was a go. You know I knew it. They told us the next day or something but I felt really good about that. No it was longer than that. Because Russ went back to Europe and I stayed with mother because that's when Sarah was getting, our daughter was getting married about a month later so I stayed home. And George Patton called from the board meeting to tell Russ because we'd been friends for so long. And Russ was really pleased. And then he started getting ready to you know come, reading stuff. And it was a fairly in a way a hard transition because we'd left everything in the military, put it down, and we had a month off. And meanwhile I had taken a tumble somewhere and cracked my hip or something, so I was on Motrin when Motrin was brand new which was great. And we went to England, had a wonderful time in England. I had a friend who's not there now. Lived there, we spent some time and then we came home and then we came here. All pretty, we retired on one day and started here the next sort of thing. It was good. It was good. SY: Wow and then? CT: Loved the house. Was thrilled with the house on Central Street - you know where it is on top of the hill? Because my grandmother lived in a house not unlike that so I knew where the furniture was supposed to come, sort of thing. Oh I liked that house it was fun to live there. SY: And were you glad not to be moving? CT: No I don't mind moving. SY: You don't mind moving. And then clearly you've come to love Northfield and this area. CT: I know it! Oh so originally I said, "Okay now here's the deal. If they offer you this job 5 years, I will stay here 5 years because you'll have plenty of time for you to make an impression." But I said, "I don't," and he said, "Fine, should I tell them 5 years?" I said, "Tell them nothing, just know that I'm telling 5 years." You know "Okay." So after about 3 years he said, "Well now I'm going to have to tell them I'm leaving in 2 years." I said, "You're what? You're what?" I said, "No we live here." He said, "Alright we stay 5 more." I said "5 more." But I knew he was very certain from the beginning that 10 years was what he wanted to give, that he felt anything that could do he could do in 10 years. After that he was afraid he would not be effective. That was his rule to himself so I knew 35 we weren't gonna. But then we said, "Hmmm what are we going to do after that? Hmm I don't know." Let's find some land here in this area and that's how we found, a friend found this and suggested it. SY: It's beautiful. CT: Yeah. But there's another part of my career that I've never gotten to and we don't need to elaborate this, but after the Peace Corps Prep Program I started the Center for Volunteer Administration and taught volunteer administration for 2 years or 3 through Continuing Ed over at VC. SY: You did? CT: Oh yeah. I had a friend named Anne Mills who worked with me and the two of us did this and I felt good about it. I trained maybe about maybe 50 people around here. But you know the thing is they have the same problems, you know the problems don't go away. People don't write plans, they don't take it seriously. I've gotten some of the worst fundraising letters lately and it makes me, of organizations I care about! Good Beginnings - did you get a fundraiser from them? They didn't sign it! SY: I don't. I mean I'm just friends with them on Facebook. I don't get letters from them. CT: Yeah it's a wonderful organization I really think what they do is super, but all you need to do a little, pay attention. No, but way too much of that. But I, nothing that I can do, or nothing that we can do could change that except make people more aware. National Life was a big supporter, really helped, always gave us space and we had a friend who'd been an officer in National Life and she got us a couple of grants to help run that program. So but I mean and then Russ really retired retired I did that for a little bit and then I just thought, "This is just too much fun you know." And then we since '92 I can't believe we've traveled a good deal and we've been all and I was down there looking through some of the scrapbooks and there's tons of pictures of various interesting people, and had a good time. SY: Yeah, so um so was that were you getting paid for was for running the program? CT: No, no, no, no. SY: No. CT: No. SYU: I don't know why I keep asking that. It's just because I'm thinking about the arc of your life and I'm thinking about you wanting to take those couple years before you got married, and I'm just wondering if it mattered to you in that way as validation? CT: No. No. You see when Russ was first, when we were first in the Army and Russ was a lieutenant, we and during the first, even after Sarah was born we were so, they did not pay Army officers a lot of money. We were so tight to the chest and we were so careful even to this day it kills me to pay more than I think I should for a pound of bananas. We 36 just were really careful, and we, even when we had 3 children even by the time Ellen, we were still really, really watching. It wasn't until Russ made general officer really that we got enough money that I didn't have --I remember one day Russ said, "You don't have to worry anymore. You do not have to worry anymore. There's always enough money. There's always enough that you could." Well he knew I didn't have too fancy taste. I didn't want anything fantastic. But he said, "You can stop worrying." It's meant an awful lot to me. I suppose I'm worrying because my mother worried and never said anything. And I'm sure the children didn't have any idea of this, why should they? This is just a burden I bore but it was my own doing. I didn't have to. I just was like that and it's been lovely. I can remember you know lots of times when I thought, "Hmmm if I spend $25.00 for that, no I can't do that," you know, this sort of thing. SY: You were a Depression baby. CT: Yes. SY: This is what your generation did. CT: Yeah. SY: You knew that the rug could be pulled out from under you at any moment. So it makes sense. CT: Yeah, even at the point when you're in the Army you knew that. Well we never had any concern that Russ would lose his job you know. I suppose he could have done something awful but he never did. I sort of trusted him not to do that, but that's right. I never thought of it that way but that's what it is. But it wasn't, it wasn't easy. And then when we came here of course we had not only had his retirement but we had a very modest salary from the university, because for one thing the university could afford nothing else. They - Russ had said, "I think I'll just tell them that I'll work for the first 5 years for no salary." I said, "No, no, no. That's not fair. Even if it's a little we can manage on very little, but." Mary Roux, you know who is our - you know Mary Roux runs the Uniform Shop? She was our, she came to work for me the day the moving man brought us to Northfield and she stayed with us the whole time until we retired in '92. And she was our housekeep--she was supposed to be our housekeeper but of course she became a third daughter which was really great, and yeah that was really nice to have full time help that the university gave us. She did everything for us, she cooked, if I needed her to she ran errands, she did anything. SY: You hosted a lot dinner parties you needed help. Or you need your mother's cook book on how to make hot cocoa for 100. CT: I know it. But she and I cooked a lot because we couldn't afford to pay the food service to have dinner parties, so Mary and I we made apple crisp, not for 100 but I think for about 60 one time, you know. And we did a lot that--hors d'oeuvres and stuff, and I have lots of recipes of Mary's, little recipes that she found that she whip up on a Thursday and I could serve on Friday night if I had to sort of thing. She was wonderful 37 about that. And that was in the days when this University was just going on but we were determined to put up a good face you know. SY: Keep up appearances. CT: Keeping up appearances, yeah. SY: Yeah, yeah. CT: But it was, it was, it was a great life. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done it differently. I wouldn't have wanted to live in one place. I guess a regret, I suppose it's a regret although it isn't to, our 3 children live all over. They've gone their own separate ways. They're very successful kids to me. They've done what they've needed to do or wanted to do, but they're far away. I think it would be so nice to able to say, "Come over for coffee," or "You and your family come for Sunday dinner or something," and there's none of that. We make a lot of effort to talk a lot on the telephone and they're wonderfully good to us. But I can't see moving to California, I certainly don't want to walk, move to Washington, D.C. and Tom even worse he lives in Olympia, Washington which is charming. We have no connections except them there you know? We have to, our connections are here and in Massachusetts because Russ has cousins there and I have 1 cousin there, and we have our high school friends and we have new friends that we've met there that are good to us too. So this going back you know when I say I don't mind moving that's kind of a falsehood because I fuss and fume but I can do it and we do it twice a year. We move and pick up and [laughs], I left my winter coat down there this time instead of bringing it. I will need it in November here particularly since now those Todd Lecture Series people who've been told 100 times, "Please don't have anything after the first of November," November third next year, November third. And I need my winter coat. Now that sounds like a minor thing, but we've got to go back because I am not going to go to that parade in November without my winter coat and I'm not buying another one. Well I might. There you go, that's a thought. SY: You're a Depression baby you're not going to buy another one [laughs]. CT: It's true. SY: So ingrained, not gonna happen. CT: And I suppose people study Depression and of course you get into the end of it aren't you? I mean people who are much older than I am aren't around too much. SY: Yeah. CT: Yeah. SY: You're getting to be that last generation. CT: Yeah. SY: Yeah. 38 CT: But it was a hardworking generation. Think of our parents. Gosh yeah. SY: Yeah. CT: Yeah. SY: How long have we been talking? 2 hours! [laughs] This was, I was fascinated the whole time. I don't know if I have any other questions. Do you have any last thoughts?