Suchergebnisse

Many countries with scheduled elections this year face a difficult choice in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic: how to balance public health considerations with holding a free and fair election. Learn more from NDI Senior Associate and Director of Electoral Programs Pat Merloe and Program Director Julia Brothers as they talk about democratic back-sliding during this crisis, electoral integrity, and ways civil society organizations can still make a difference.
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Pat Merlow: In the public health crisis, especially where governments are weak or people are suspicious of governments, trusted voices are really important to get out accurate information.
Julia Brothers: Hello, this is Julia Brothers. I'm the Program Director for Elections at the National Democratic Institute. Welcome to Dem Works.
JB: Around the world, the COVID-19 pandemic is sewing insecurity among the public, which can be exploited by authoritarians to consolidate power in sideline democratic institutions. It also poses severe technical, political, and social threats to elections themselves.
In many countries, the effects of the virus may strain citizen relationships with government and elected [inaudible] officials, intensify political tensions and the potentials for violence, disenfranchise voters and increase conditions for democratic backsliding.
Today I'm joined by Pat Merlow, senior associate and director of electoral programs at NDI. Welcome to the podcast, Pat. Thank you for being here.
Pat Merlow: Hi, Julia.
JB: So the COVID-19 crisis is causing enormous challenges for every country, including those with scheduled elections this year. What are the biggest concerns deciding whether to hold or postpone elections?
PM: Elections must be held in ways that safeguard public health and in ways that ensure genuine opportunities for the electorate to vote. Universal and equal suffrage, which is in every modern constitution, means inclusion, not exclusion. So we have to also hold elections in ways where the political parties and the candidates have a fair chance to compete for votes without a playing field that's being manipulated or intentionally or unintentionally tilted in one party's favor.
So striking a proper democratic balance of public safety and credible election processes is different and really difficult in every country. Depends a lot on the level of economic and technological development in the country on the nature of social cohesion versus divisions in the country and political polarization.
So in many countries where NDI works, the concern is whether authoritarians will rush through elections with undue public health risks in order to gain an electoral advantage or to postpone elections under conditions that advantage their attempts to gain and maintain more power.
A second troubling circumstance in countries that are unstable or prone to various kinds of violence, where constrains of the public health crisis can be used by malign actors to flood the population with this information... I mean we're hearing this term infodemic; also hate speech and other means to scapegoat religious or ethnic minorities, LGBTQ people or women in order to gain political advantage.
That's not all the countries where NDI works, but even those are neither authoritarian nor fragile states, the COVID-19 crisis is still posing gigantic challenges both on the public health and to electoral integrity.
JB: Right. I mean these factors present themselves as challenges to electoral integrity, not just where there might be bad faith actors that are trying to utilize this crisis to consolidate power, but also just in addressing basic issues related to how to make sure that you're maximizing participation during a public health crisis.
What are some of the factors that these countries would need to think about in terms of actually implementing elections either during a public health crisis or immediately after.
PM: There really are a number of factors that have to be considered. So the first thing that comes to everybody's mind of course is what do you do? Can people actually go to polling places or should they be under some sort of the shelter in place lockdown-like circumstances.
That doesn't just affect whether to vote. That really has to do with whether you can register to vote safely or not. In countries where there are not a high level of electronic engagement where the digital divide falls really widely across broad swipes of the population, gathering those people into places to register to vote or to vote is really the only means of doing it. So the question of a postponement becomes really an operative question.
Then we're concerned with what are the conditions for the postponement and how does that interrelate with the declarations of states of emergency, whether they're being done properly with the kinds of constraints on limitations on powers or whether they're being done in ways that usurp power.
JB: Yeah. I think one of the major concerns, especially thinking about citizens being able to participate in the process, is that during a pandemic, if voters are concerned about going out to vote, chances are that that's not going to be an equal distribution among the population, where there are a vulnerable populations that will be more impacted.
You'll see disproportionate levels of low turnout among certain communities like senior citizens or persons with disabilities or women who disproportionately have the burden of childcare and are in a situation where you don't have options for even temporary childcare because of social distancing regulations.
Well, this seems like a good place to take a short break.
For more than 35 years, NDI has been honored to work with courageous and committed pro-democracy activists and leaders around the world to help countries develop the institution's practices and skills necessary for democracy success. Welcome back.
JB: So we talked a bit about the postponements that we're seeing around the world in terms of electoral timelines. Are election observers relevant during electoral delays, especially if there's restrictions on movement in the population if they're under some form of shelter in place or lockdown.
PM: Yeah. So Julie, you mentioned that NDI works in more than 70 countries and in fact, working with nonpartisan citizen groups and coalitions and various organizations is one of the hallmarks of NDI's work over more than 35 years now and certainly the 25 years where I've been involved.
There's a network of citizen election observers, there are nine of them in various regions of the world and they're amalgamated in more than 250 organizations from 90 countries. Those organizations have been sharing best practices and ideas about what can be done.
So let me just quickly mention a couple of them. There are four areas where they have been able to focus. One are ways to assist; that is, to assist public health agencies and the electoral authorities to bring about safe elections and fair elections.
The second is ways to address authoritarian opportunism and how states of emergency and various conditions are being used by those who would usurp the citizens of power.
The third are ways to address disinformation, hate speech and attempts at hyperpolarization that influence and create unfair conditions for elections.
The fourth way is to address, as you mentioned earlier, examples of where a health crisis can lead to disenfranchisement or further tilt the playing field so that it's an unfair circumstance.
JB: Yeah, I mean you mentioned especially tracking the authoritarian leaders who are potentially taking advantage of the health crisis to grab power and subvert democracy and in some unstable countries, this can threaten heightened instability.
What can election servers be doing to address that or what are they currently doing to address that?
PM: The most important thing is citizen election observers in all kinds of countries have been time tested and over the series of elections cycles two, three, even four in many countries, they've built national networks and they've established themselves as trusted voices.
In a public health crisis, especially where governments are weak or people are suspicious of government, trusted voices are really important to get out accurate information from the health authorities, accurate information from the electoral authorities about what to do, where to do things and so on.
Also, they have networks that can collect information; even during lockdowns. You and I were in a conversation with one of the partner organizations with whom we work in Sri Lanka just last week. The head of that organization is working on a civil society task force.
That task force is considering how to gain access to women's shelters, to older people's homes, to places where there's foster children's care, drug treatment centers, and so on because these are vulnerable populations that are being hit hard by the crisis.
One of the things that he pointed out in our conversation is that the government is taking advantage of the postponement of the election for electoral advantage by handing out dry goods to citizens and even medical supplies through the political party rather than as an impartial governmental service to the people.
So the question that he posed was, even during lockdown, is there a way that our network of over 1,000 people could begin to document this and report it so that we can lift up to the public the nature of this problem that's coming about and see if we can't get some accountability and get them to cut back.
So even during a lockdown, it's possible for the citizen observer groups to do things that are extraordinarily relevant.
JB: Yeah, I mean it seems like there are certainly opportunities for electoral observers to be monitoring the kinds of things that they would normally be looking at in a pre-election period when their elections are delayed... Issues related to is the government still helping to create conditions for a credible and competitive process in the midst of a public health emergency. Are conditions being put in place to ensure that marginalized populations are not sidelined from the process.
But it also kind of expands it a little bit too in that there are these potentially other issues that that groups may consider looking at. Like you mentioned, how health resources are being distributed and what kinds of policy changes are being made and how were those being made?
What's the decision-making process around things like delaying the elections, around emergency voting procedures? Are they inclusive? Are all the parties being brought in to them? Is civil society be brought into these discussions and taking a look at some of these new conditions that observers may otherwise not necessarily be monitoring in a pre-election period.
I think the other issue here is there are constraints here in terms of potentially being able to deploy a bunch observers out into the field to collect information if you're in a lockdown situation.
So it's been interesting talking with groups to see how they're thinking creatively about how they can collect some of this information remotely. What kind of data exists that you can collect whether it's open data sources from the government looking at budgets, looking at how budgets are changing and how resources are moving.
You mentioned looking at disinformation, being able to monitor social media and seeing what data could be collected from that.
It's been interesting to see how citizen election observers around the world are getting creative and still doing their jobs while being sometimes trapped at home.
PM: Absolutely. You mentioned the disinformation... One of the things that we've been seeing is that in Russia for example, they have been making use of the COVID crisis to begin to track people even more carefully to introduce facial recognition technologies and cameras.
The term that's been throwing around is cybergulags being created there. With China's facial recognition technologies and the way that's been used to suppress the weaker minorities, China has been introducing that working with governments and other places in the world to try to get that into voter registration so that you have biometric voter registration data that includes facial recognition technology.
So in this era, getting access to government decision making, getting access even to the health data and disaggregated by gender, by vulnerable groups and so on is part of the work that election observers normally do. Demanding open electoral data can lead easily to the same kinds of advocacy around open health data.
One of the other things I thought that you've touched on that's interesting is the states of emergencies and the relationships between that and postponement. There's more than 45 countries at this point that have postponed elections at the national and sub-national level.
Not all of them are problematic by any means, but in a lot of countries, there have been extended states of emergency without any end date. The postponements have no end date on them.
One of the things that election observers can do is to join with... And many of them are human rights organizations and bringing about the rules that have been established in the international arena for limiting the duration of states of emergencies, that the measures that are taken have to be proportionate to the nature of the threat to the nation to bring those issues up and do advocacy around them and to help those of us in the international arena be aware of where these problems are in various countries.
JB: With that, I think we'll take a quick break. We'll be back after this quick message.
One of the things that Secretary Albright has said is that it's absolutely essential for young people to understand that they must participate and that they are the energy behind democracy.
You can hear more from other democracy heroes by listening to our Dem Works podcast. It is available on iTunes and SoundCloud.
So before the break, we were talking about the role that citizen election monitors are playing in the COVID-19 crisis and its impact on electoral integrity. Are there other considerations that citizen election groups should be thinking about in the need for electoral integrity in their countries?
I'm thinking especially related to how groups can make sure that their observers are safe while also being able to collect information and an advocate for critical processes and good governance.
PM: That's really a critical question, Julia. A good example that comes to mind is in Mali, which has had very few reported cases of COVID-19, there was a parliamentary election just two weeks ago. The government, for national security reasons, has had to postpone those elections for almost two years and they were really in a phase of saying we need to push it ahead. In fact, there had not been a reported COVID-19 death until just a few hours before the election date.
So it went forward and the citizen observers with which NDI has been working in that country in the weeks leading up to that advocated that the polling stations had to have masks for the staff; had to have gloves; had to have hand sanitizers or hand washing stations because hand sanitizer is hard to get in a lot of places in Mali.
They made sure that their observers had those materials themselves. I think 1,500 observers went out to polling stations across the country. In their own headquarters and gathering data, there was social distancing that took place and they did a lot of checking in with their observers about how they were doing, how they were feeling over the course of the day.
So one thing that the citizen observers can do is to join with organizations that are health advocates for those places where either voter registration is about to take place or voting is about to take place to ensure that the conditions minimize the risk.
We just saw this over this past weekend in the elections that were held in South Korea. Whether or not you might think that the election should go forward, there was a country where there's a lot of public confidence in what the government has been doing and in the integrity of the election authorities and voter turnout was not terribly affected by this.
So there is something that can be done immediately and as you have mentioned, there are numerous things that can be looked at by citizen observers without ever really leaving their homes or their headquarters. One of those, as you mentioned, is disinformation. Our partners in Georgia, for example, have uncovered a link between Russian propaganda, which has gone up around disinformation around COVID-19 and linking it to destabilizing public trust in Georgia's government.
There's a really interesting report that they came out with just last week on that front. So how does COVID-19 and elections interface is something that can be explored in a number of dimensions.
JB: We've talked mostly about the work of nonpartisan civil society organizations and their own countries that are confronting this challenge. Is there a role for international election observers on terms of electoral oversight during a public crisis, especially knowing that they will have some of the same if not even more constraints than citizen election monitors?
PM: It's a very difficult role at the moment for international election observers. We've been in touch with our colleagues at the African Union and the European Union, at the United Nations and Organization of American States and so on. Many of them have been bringing teams home from countries. Some of them have been postponing or canceling sending teams out.
At the same time, there are a number of things that international observers can do. As you mentioned, you can look at things from a distance. You can review the legal framework, which is part of what every international election observation and citizen observers do.
You can compare what has been done over the past few cycles of elections, where recommendations have been made, whether those recommendations were acted upon or whether you find the same problem repeating in the next report and prioritize the issues that you might look to and even be able to inform diplomats and others about things that they should be raising with government.
You can look at disinformation and other information disorder, hate speech and so on, from afar. Certainly you can tune in with what the critical people inside a country who are working on these issues have been doing. You can conduct some long distance interviews with key people in the citizen groups and in the election authorities and the political leaders to learn their opinions about what the state of play is in the country and their concerns going forward.
But when it comes time to put people on the ground, we have to look at travel restrictions. We have to look at countries where foreigners have been seen as people who bring in COVID-19 and there's been violence against them; so security of observers is important. And the numbers of people who may go or where they may be deployed depending upon hotspots in the country and so on.
So this is something that over the course of this year will be a challenge. And the next thing will be a challenge for international election observers is that as so many elections are being postponed, they're being postponed probably towards the end of this year or the beginning of next year, which already has many scheduled elections. So there may be an overwhelming demand for which the supply of financial and human resources runs short.
JB: It does seem like at this point, especially knowing that international election observers in a lot of the places just can't deploy right now, one of the roles to play here is really trying to raise the voices of the citizen groups on the ground that are able to actually do some on the ground observation.
Also keeping in mind, especially for the places we're concerned about authoritarian overreach, thinking about how we can use some of these international mechanisms to push back on democratic backsliding and mitigate tensions in places where it could potentially be a bit more unstable with the current situation.
PM: You're right. That's the contribution that the international community can do, too... To really amplify the voices of the citizenry and to augment their efforts to bring about respect for civil and political rights.
When you have a network of thousands of citizens who have taken the time and the effort to go out of their homes, into the street, to look at what the nature of the threats of violence or vote buying or intimidation to document how these things of disproportionally driven women or restricted women's political and electoral participation, would they have taken the time to go into polling stations, sometimes under threat or coercion?
These people have become a solid core of citizen empowerment in so many countries around the world, and each of those citizens, of course, is using WhatsApp and other ways of talking and they're influencers within a country.
They can gather information, they can give accurate information out, but as they report up through their networks, if there's good collaboration between the reputable citizen groups and the credible international election observers and the international community more broadly, we can use that cooperation that we've been working on over the years to try to bring attention, even when it's hard to shine a light directly on problems in countries that are being affected by this crisis and facing political challenges and stress.
JB: Well, thank you again, Pat, for joining us. I think this has been a particularly relevant discussion. I'd also like to say thank you to our listeners.
To learn more about NDI or to listen to other Dem Works podcasts, please visit our website@www.ndi.org
PM: Thank you, Julia and thank you to the listeners.





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Transcript of an oral history interview with Harold L. Gilmore, conducted by Joseph Cates on 22 January 2017 as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Harold Gilmore was a member of the Norwich University Class of 1953; his experiences as a student at Norwich University and his post-graduation career path, particularly as an educator, are discussed in his interview. ; 1 Harold Gilmore, Oral History Interview January 22nd, 2017 Home of Harold Gilmore Interviewed by Joseph Cates JOSEPH CATES: Let's record and we can get started. HAROLD GILMORE: All right. Very good. JC: All right. This is Joseph Cates. Today is January 22nd, 2017. I'm interviewing Harold Gilmore at his home. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. To start off, can you tell me your full name? HG: Harold Lawrence Gilmore. JC: And, when and where were you born? HG: Born in Whitinsville, Massachusetts in 1931. JC: Okay. HG: April 30th. JC: April 30th. What is your Norwich class? HG: Class of 1953. JC: Okay. Tell me about where you grew up and what it was like as a child? HG: I grew up in a very unique town. The town of Whitinsville, a village of Whitinsville, in the town of Northbridge, Massachusetts. It was what you'd call a company town. It was a town that was operated fundamentally by the Whitin Machine Works, which was a textile manufacturing company. My father worked there his whole life. My mother worked there part-time at times. It was a town that was written up by the Harvard Business School at one point in time as sort of a socialistic environment. JC: Oh! HG: It was a town that ran the library. It had its own housing for its people. The rents were subsidized so to speak. They maintained those properties. So, it was a very unique environment, something that probably not many people in the United States have ever lived in but was very enjoyable. It was secure and stable 2 employment, good schools. Other resources were all well-made, fire departments, police departments, many of it subsidized heavily by the corporation. JC: And what corporation was it again? HG: Whitin Machine Works. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: And it was a textile manufacturing company. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: Subsequently, it has disappeared. Went out of business. Textile manufacturing moved elsewhere. Moves down South and then out of the country primarily. The remnants of it are over in New Bedford where I ended up retiring from the University of Massachusetts over there where the icon on the entrance of the school is a huge spindle, which is a representative of a device that runs a thread through looms, weaving machines. JC: What made you decide to choose Norwich? HG: Well, I was the first individual in my family to go on to college. It's a large family. My mother was one of eight children. My father was one of four. They married. They lived within, almost a stone's throw of each other. We lived in the same place. I grew up in the same place and had many aunts and uncles in the neighborhood. So, I did not have any prior experience with Norwich. The only thing that was driving me at the time was my father said, "You've got to get a college education." He was a wood pattern maker and worked at Whitin Machine Works, as I noted, and he said, "This is not your lifestyle. You've got to upgrade yourself." I did not have the experience that current people have of visiting campuses. I never went to Norwich. I had an uncle that had gone to the University of Rhode Island. He had not graduated. So, I applied there. And then, Norwich had a high school visit team that came through and I got impressed with what that fellow had to say so I applied to Norwich. I did not get accepted to the University of Rhode Island. So, I had the choice of one school, Norwich. So, I went to Norwich. Unbeknownst to me about anything about Norwich. As a matter of fact, I had my high school yearbook signed by one of the teachers and he signed it, "Hup, one, two, three" and he signed his name. I said, "What's that all about?" He says, "You're going to a military school! You're going to be in the Army!" I says, "I am?" When I arrived at Norwich, it was like a new day in my life. I had no military experience. I'd never even been a Boy Scout. The regimentation was totally new to me. That probably was the beginning of what I consider a rather difficult period of adjustment for the four years. As you will probably know, I was a private in the Corps for four years. 3 JC: Oh. Okay. HG: Never given rank. I had the one opportunity close to graduation, which I refused. I thought it was a token gift which I did not appreciate receiving at that point in time. I didn't accept it. In fact, I applied to transfer out of Norwich my freshman year to start college at Georgia Tech. I got accepted to Georgia Tech, got a telephone call from my mother saying, "What is this acceptance notice we've received from Georgia Tech?" I said, "Well, I'm going to Georgia Tech next year, Ma. I'm not going to Norwich." She says, "Very well. Pay your own way." I stayed at Norwich for the rest of my life because I had no money at all! JC: What was it like that first day showing up at Norwich? HG: Well, it was a very memorable day. My father and mother drove me to school with the necessary material that I had to have, clothing and I think we had to bring a mattress at the time. We arrived at Norwich in the morning. My father and mother dropped me off, dropped me off at Cabot Hall. Room 109 was my room. My roommate, Ron Bartlett, at the time, had arrived about the same time so I met his father and mother. We met each other, of course. My father, immediately after dropping me off, jumped in the car and drove back to Whitinsville. They had to get home before dark I think. We started out very early in the morning. In fact, had to turn back because he discovered on the way that we probably didn't have enough gas to make it all the way to Vermont. We went back to get an open gas station because we started out so early in the morning. But no, they dropped me off and left. I remember a conversation I had with Ron's mother and father and she said, "Would you take care of Ron? He hasn't been away from home before." I said, "Yes, I will, Mrs. Bartlett, but neither have I been away from home before." (Laughs.) That was an interesting first day. And then, in contrast to the first day my second year, where I arrived on campus and used to ship a lot of my stuff up in a big, overseas container by train so that my shipment had arrived at the mailroom on campus. I went to the dormitory and I was back in Cabot the second year too. I said, "Rooks! Rooks! I need a rook to go down and get my suitcase and bring it up to the room." "Sorry, Sir. We don't do that anymore." JC: Oh! HG: The harassment rules had changed over the summertime and I hadn't gotten word of it. Plus, I arrived too late, I guess, because I recall having to do that very same thing for upperclassmen that first year. JC: Mm hmm. HG: So, anyway, that was my first day at Norwich. JC: What was your major? 4 HG Electrical engineering. JC: And why'd you choose that? HG: Well, my uncle was sort of involved with the electrical work and not that he had a great influence on me but I observed that and I thought, "Well." He was working for General Electric at the time and I said, "Well, I think that maybe I would do the same thing." So, I sort of went into that field not for any other particular reason than he was successful in what he was doing and I thought it would be of interest to me. JC: Okay. HG: Fortunately for me, in the long run, there were only nine matriculated double Es in '49, which got depleted very quickly, either through people who didn't continue at Norwich or transferred to some other major. I graduated with one other very close friend of mine to this day, Al Gardner, who lives out in the southern part of Vermont on the western edge of Massachusetts. We were the two electrical engineers that graduated in '53. We had tutorials. It was a very fortunate thing for me because probably the school where I had to fend more for myself, I might not have done as well as I did in the curriculum. It was a good experience. JC: Which fraternity did you belong to? HG: I joined Lambda Chi Alpha, which is off-campus, up on the hill. My primary reason for joining them was at the pledge period, you were entertained at the fraternities. They had an excellent meal. At that time, they had a pastry chef with some sort of recognition and he put on a beautiful dessert and I was a fellow who had been plump my whole life, loved sweets, and said, "This is the place for me!" Joined the fraternity and wouldn't you know it, he terminated. He quit. The pastry guy was gone! But we still had good cooks, husband and wife team over the four years, and I ended up being steward of the fraternity. It was a large part of my college life was being in the fraternity. I had to be there at least every day, serving a meal, because I was in the kitchen. In fact, I got rewarded for doing that type of job with half my food bill was being paid by labor so that worked out very nicely for me. JC: Well, what else do you remember about being in the fraternity? HG: Great social environment. I thought that we had, as any organization you end up with some cliques and I had three or four fellows that I chummed closely with and carried on to this day until both of them have now deceased. We had a life-long bonding there so the fraternity life to me was probably my sole social environment on the campus other than some of the things I did with the intramural sports and whatnot. I really was sorry to see the fraternities go but I understood the reason for it and, of course, I was long out of the school at that time anyway 5 so I didn't react one way or the other. It was just a little bit of self-disappointment in the whole thing. I've kept my affiliation with Lambda Chi Alpha for over the years. I still am a donor to the fraternity. I've had representatives from Indiana come up and visit me at the house here asking me for more money. The Lambda Chi, at the time, had sort of reputation of being an academically-oriented fraternity and scholarly environment. Probably didn't pan out as scholarly as I had thought it would but I think the fraternity still holds to that sort of criteria. They like to have their fraternities be scholastically oriented, not just a place to go and drink beer or mess around with the ladies, you know. JC: Right. HG: So, yeah. I heard there might rumors that the fraternities with the civilian population at Norwich might come back. JC: Really? HG: Yeah. I heard a rumor about that but just a rumor. I'm sure that it'd be a hard sell to get them back on campus. JC: Yeah. I know Theta Chi would like to be back. HG: Theta Chi was the Alpha Chapter so, and Lambda Chi, we were the Zeta Chapter, the Zeta Chapter of Lambda Chi so we were not new in the world of fraternities as Theta Chi was. JC: What intramural sports did you play? HG: I got involved in softball, a little bit of tag football and basketball. As I recall, I managed, I guess you'd say, our company basketball team for a while, not that I was any expert in the sport itself but I knew enough about it to try to get the boys organized and spur them on at the games with the other companies. I was in Company B, I think, most of the time. We did okay but it gave you something to do as well as sit in your room and study, that sort of thing. Then, I was on the rifle team for a while. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: When I discovered that my scores were not counted because they have a system of counting only the top five or six scorers and I was always one or two below. I figured I never was good enough. I shot for the team and I gave it up. Tom Atwood, a classmate of mine, was an Olympic sharp shooter so he's – JC: Oh. Really? 6 HG: Oh, yeah. Tom was on the team and he spent a lot of time during his days in the military doing just that, representing the United States on the Olympic rifle team. Tom and I keep in touch to this day. JC: Okay. HG: Yep. JC: He would be a good one to interview. HG: Yeah. Tom is down in Florida in the winter and out in the Chicago area, I think, in the summer. JC: Okay. HG: They know, the school, where he's located. So, if you want to hook up with him, it'd be nice to get him because he was a cadet colonel too, I believe. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: I think Tom was. I know he was high rank in our corp. Getting old here. I forget some of the facts. JC: I understand. Besides intramural sports, what other activities did you participate in? HG: Oh. Let's see. University activities, you mean? JC: Mm hmm. HG: I don't think I, I didn't get involved in any of the other, oh, the IEEE, they had a professional chapter, student chapter. I was involved in that and became an officer in it. Of course, there weren't too many electrical engineers but we did have some younger grads, classmates coming in to it. We did field trips for that. And I was involved with the administration of it, so to speak. But that was probably it, the IEEE. JC: What does IEEE stand for? HG: Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: Yeah. It's still an ongoing organization. I still belong to them. I'm a life member in that organization now, because of my age primarily and being a member for so many years. But yeah, it was a good organization. 7 JC: What'd you do to relax when you were at Norwich? HG: Sleep! (Laughs.) We would go to the movies. Go to Montpelier. Perhaps go out to eat in Barre maybe once a week. One of the difficulties of my being a student at Norwich was I didn't have any money and I didn't have a car. So, I was dependent upon a very tight budget and it didn't loosen up at all until I became a junior and senior where we were getting the ROTC ninety cents a day supplement, twenty-seven dollars a month. That helped a lot for spending money. My mother used to say, "The only time you call home, Harold, is when you want money. We don't have any to give you." So, I used to spread my money pretty thinly. So, I didn't do a lot of relaxing that cost anything. There is an incident. One time, Garry Moushegian, Al Gardner, my buddy, the electrical engineer, and I decided to go horseback riding and thought that'd be nice Saturday afternoon entertainment. So, we went out and, funny thing, we rented the horses and got saddled up, got on the horses, and started our trip. Well, none of us knew how to ride a horse. None of us had been on a horse before. The horses turned around and went back to the barn. Garry's a tall guy. Well, the barn door was so low, he got scraped off the saddle. Laughs. Finally, we get them back outside and get them on the way. We did our tour and we're coming back home and, of course, the horses wanted to get back in the barn again. So, they started trotted along and we're bumping along behind them in the saddles and so forth. We got back to Norwich and Garry came over to my room. He says, "Look at what happened!" It wore holes in his underwear! Laughs. So, we had some laughs, you know. Different things like that happened. That's the biggest recollection I can of the things that we did. We had fraternity parties. We had to get involved in that, preparing for them and that kind of thing was an activity that I did as extracurricular. JC: Did you do anything else for entertainment other than what you mentioned? HG: Not that I can think of. I wasn't in any outside of the school activities. I did join the Masonic Order when I was a senior. I joined that and that involves some off-campus activity. I got involved in the Northfield Church. Even as a freshman, I would walk down to church. So, I got involved in church activities. And to this day, I support the Christian Fellowship Organization financially on campus each year to help them along so they can have programs that they want to put on. They have a little bit of money to work with. JC: Right. HG: So, yeah, that sort of thing I got involved in. JC: Okay. Do you remember any particular songs from when you were at Norwich? HG: Well, there's "Norwich Forever," of course, the school song. There used to be a song we used to sing, "On the steps of Jackman, crying like hell! There's a 8 newborn baby. La da da." Laughs. That song we used to sing. The other words they escape me and they don't escape me. They better escape me. They were choice words. JC: I understand. I know the words too. HG: Do you know the words!? Laughs. No. That's about all I remember. JC: I've got it in an oral history, "The Indecipherable Song." HG: Have you really? JC: Mm hmm. HG: I'll have to read that because I'd like to find out what the rest of the song is. It's something like, "A bastard's son of old NU." Awful song. JC: Yeah. It's an awful song. Any other songs? HG: I don't think so. Not that I can remember. JC: Who were the instructors who were most influential during your time there? HG: Well, the electrical department certainly was. Professor Marsh and Professor Maxfield and Professor Spencer, those three. There's an F.A. Spencer award in electrical engineering on campus, I believe. And I have contributed financially to that several times. I don't necessarily do it every year. Those gentleman were very influential. They were almost like tutors to Al and I. We'd be in class. It was just the two of us. You got to know the people and they got to know us. That was a very unique college relationship, I think, that we had. JC: Mm hmm. What was your favorite class? HG: My favorite class? I don't know what that would have been. I know my most unfavorable class was. JC: What was that? HG: Thermodynamics! I flunked that one. I had to take that as a, in order to graduate, I had to pass that course my final semester. So, I was taking an overload. I like Public Speaking. That was an interesting class. I did that the freshman year. I recall we all had to give a talk and I think the fellow's name was Fisk that was the professor. After I got through, I was critiqued, of course, by the student population, including classmates and they criticized me for having my Boston accent. Fortunately, for me, Professor Fisk was from Braintree, I believe. He says, "Mr. Gilmore is going to be fine with his language. I understood him perfectly." 9 Laughs. So, that was a favorable thing out of that class. I remember that so I'd call it a favorite class. I enjoyed it. JC: What do you remember about being a rook? HG: The harassment. A lot of harassment and the fact that we had these duties to perform like opening of windows and preparing the latrines and shining upperclassmen's brass and shoes and that sort of thing. As a person unfamiliar with that, having been the oldest in a family of four, and the only male in that family, I was fairly independent and having to be subjugated to these requirements was demanding in terms of my having to conform to the practices that were being expected of me. That was the worst part that I knew of. Probably another thing would be being out where I was without an automobile. I grew up, as I say, in Whitinsville where I lived out of town about three miles. So, I was used to being in a remote area but I could drive. My folks had a car they would let me use and I could get into town fairly easily and, once there, there was always other transportation you could get as well. At Northfield, there was just absolutely nothing and the closest town was Montpelier, twelve miles away. And also, getting back and forth to school, my folks did not have the resources, the time, or the ability to bring me back and forth to school. There were no commercial transportation convenient. The only way I could get back would be to get a ride from somebody else. And so, that was always at the top of your mind. When you come home, how am I going to get to school? How was I going to get to summer camp, which was down in Georgia? I had no car. I didn't have an automobile until I had started, after graduation, when I started working for Westinghouse, without a car. I had to save up enough money for a down payment to buy one. So, my first few months at work were devoted to saving as much money as I received from my Westinghouse pay to build up enough money to make a down payment on a car, which I finally did. I bought a used car in Whitinsville. I remember it cost $1350. It was a 1949 two-door Ford sedan. I ended up taking it to Japan with me and selling it off over there. Didn't bring it back. Yeah. So, those were the hard parts of school at Norwich. You know, I can recall when I'd get back from Norwich from a vacation, it be in the evening, you'd see the lights up on the hill and I would breathe a sigh of relief, "I'm back home and I'll be safe here when I get home." It ended up sort of like a security blanket. The school prepared me for, it gave me the keys to success. I'm forever pleased and blessed that I ended up going and staying at Norwich actually. It's created a great deal of enjoyment for me over my life. I've had a great post-graduate career and one of the things it taught me was perseverance, life-long education. I wasn't necessarily a brilliant scholar but I ended up getting three master's degrees and a Ph.D. post-Norwich experience and I think Norwich had to have something to do with that motivation to do that. JC: What are your master's degrees in? 10 HG: I have a master's degree, an M.B.A., and I have a master of science and a master of arts, one in human resources and one in labor relations. JC: Okay and where are they from? HG: One is from Shippensburg and one is from Loretto. That's awful. Can you give me a minute? JC: Yes. HG: I have a B.S.E.E. from Norwich, and M.B.A., a Ph.D. from Syracuse, a master's degree from St. Francis College, and a master's degree from Shippensburg University. JC: Okay. HG: The most important degrees for me, of course, was the B.S. in E.E. and the M.B.A. Ph.D. from Syracuse because those influenced what I did with my life more importantly. The other two degrees were done because of what I felt I needed to be effective in the classroom that I subsequently taught and administered the programs in at both Penn State and at UMASS Dartmouth. JC: Oh. Okay. Let's see. What was your favorite part of Norwich? HG: Favorite what? Part? JC: Part. HG: Part of Norwich? JC: Mm hmm. HG: What do you mean by part? JC: What did you like most about it? HG: Well, I would like the day I graduated was the most favorite part for me. I had my entire family there, extended family. We rented a whole motel. I was the keystone person that ever graduated in Johnson and Gilmore family. As I mentioned, the size is extensive and I remember quite a few relatives to follow, cousins and so forth. That was an occasion that I really, it was a success for me because I went there thinking, "I've got to graduate. I cannot fail." And I hadn't even though that last semester I had to take that extra course to make it through. I did it. And then the fact that it prepared me. I left the place with a job. I had a commission. I got a deferment for ten months so I could go to work for Westinghouse and get some industrial experience before I went in the military. Stayed in the military for my, 11 well I went in for two years but I extended because I got special weapons training with atomic weapons and I was there for close to three years total. Could have stayed longer. I was asked to stay longer but for family purposes I, stayed in the Reserve though. I retired from the military and I made it well up to the rank of colonel which I felt was something I never expected either and I think Norwich prepared me for that sort of experience, knowing how to behave and accept responsibility and perform the duties that I was required up to a successful level, satisfactory level. So, the best day at Norwich was indeed the day I graduated because it marked a major milestone in my life. Just as the first day I went there marked a major milestone. JC: What was the most important thing that Norwich taught you? HG: I think to be respectful of others and to take life-long learning seriously and to be persevering in what you're trying to accomplish. Norwich's motto is "I Will Try." So, any opportunity that came along for me, I seized upon. I was outwardly looking, several Fulbrights, quite a bit of overseas experience, along with my family, and I think Norwich prepared me for that by having an overseas assignment that was one of my first, the only one I had as a lieutenant was in Japan. And I got to like other cultures and so forth. I pursued that in Africa, Europe, and other places. As a matter of fact, I was contemplating a trip to China this year. JC: Oh. Really? HG: Yeah. I think I may go to China. I got the quotation and everything. One of the things I have to clarify is that both my wife and I's status health-wise to make sure that we're fit to go. I think we both will be allowed to do that from a medical perspective. The only thing remaining is making the commitment. JC: Mm hmm. HG: So, yeah. We're looking forward to that. We've gone on a number of cruises in the meantime to Alaska, the Mediterranean, the Caribbean, Alaska. So, we engaged travel, so I think the military and the Norwich environment has cultivated that sort of orientation to our lifestyle. JC: You mentioned "I Will Try." What did it mean to you as a student? HG: What did it mean to me when? JC: As a student. HG: As a student? Probably not much. I don't think you really appreciate that. I appreciate it more now that I've graduated and look back on things. I think, one of the things, it's not "I Will Try" so much but "I Will Stick to It!" 12 JC: Mm hmm. HG: I will not quit! I was amazed at the number of freshman, matriculated freshman that left Norwich the day they had to get a short haircut. JC: Mm hmm. HG: I, fortunately, grew up every summer having my head sheared off with what we used to call a Harvard clip. So, it didn't bother me to have to have it cut another eighth of an inch off. But these fellows that came up with the golden curls that had to get sheared said no and left. I wasn't going to give up. If Norwich's moral had been "I Won't Give Up," it would have been more appropriate than "I Will Try" in my case. "I Will Not Give Up." JC: What does Partridge's idea of a citizen soldier mean to you? HG: Well, it means to me that I'd like to see conscription come back. That's how much meaning it has to me. I think everyone should have a requirement to do some public service of some sort, not necessarily military but some kind of public service to build a concept of patriotism and to embed the value systems that our country stands for in their lives, personal lives. And so, the citizen soldier concept, I thought that Partridge had was just that. A person has a responsibility for his country, his family, and the two can coexist. JC: Mm hmm. HG: So, that's what that means to me, to be part of the process as an individual. JC: Mm hmm. Do you remember any funny stories from when you were at Norwich? HG: I'm sure Fred told you a funny story, the time I came up and down on the dumbwaiter at his surprise. He wondered, "Where was Harry?" And I said, "Here I am!" And I was inside the dumbwaiter cage! Laughs. That was a comedy. The other thing was the, not so much of a story but incident, was the time I repeated earlier about the horseback riding incident. That was a humorous event. I don't recall any other thing comes to mind at the moment. I'm sure there probably were numerous other events that happened that created some humor but I don't recall any right now. JC: So, what did you do after graduation? I know you went to work at Westinghouse. HG: Yeah. I went to work for Westinghouse immediately upon graduation. Had a job before I graduated. And then, I took a deferment from, Westinghouse gave me a deferment for about ten months because I did have the two-year obligation as a commissioned officer. So, then I went in the military and got asked if I were 13 interested in taking a special weapons training. That's the atomic weapons training. I got a Q clearance and so forth. And I went to Sandia Base. While there, a unit, 261st ordinance detachment was formed. I became the first commanding officer for, until such time as the captain showed up to take over the reins. I was in individual training. Didn't finish that. Went in to unit training, the 261st trained with the 5th field artillery battalion for deployment to Japan which, incidentally, at that time was against the peace treaty that we had signed with Japan. We're not supposed to bring any new armament into the country but we did. We brought in nuclear weapons. We used to have a little difficulty, the artillery did, going out to the range and firing it off. I went there and did some field exercises in Iwo Jima in Okinawa. While there, got to talking to a gentleman at KU Ammunition Depot Bar one evening and he was leaving for Syracuse University for the comptrollers' program there. And he says, "Harold, you ought to think about getting your M.B.A." And I said, "Well, what's that?" He says, "It's a master's degree in business administration. It's a great topping off of your electrical engineering degree and it's highly sought after people." Now, this was back in 1957, '57, '58. So, I put in for an early release. It was like eight months early. They weren't going to let me go until I got some congressional involvement by Saltonstall and he facilitated my departure from the military. I didn't give up my commission. I just went in the Reserve. And so, I went to Syracuse at that time. Got my master's degree. Went back to work for Westinghouse. Worked for AVCO in the reentry vehicle business, the Apollo program. And from there, I decided to go on to Syracuse. I got a three-year fellowship for a Ph.D. program in organizational behavior and operations management. So, I took that, went there, gave up my work, sold my home, took my family to Syracuse. Again, very, in retrospect, very risky situation. A lot of people start out looking for a Ph.D. and they never get it. I was told when I arrived, I had a very good advisor, a fellow who I had as an M.B.A. faculty member, Dr. Seimer. He said, "Harold, you do not leave this campus without that Ph.D. because you'll never get it if you do." So, I says, "All right, Dr. Seimer. I will not leave." So, I stayed there and I got the doctorate and left them. In my first job, I was planning to go back to work for AVCO because I was in a research and development division where higher degree were, of course, very prominent. JC: Mm hmm. HG: Well, and they had said, "Well, maybe there might be an opening for you when you get through." Well, three years is a long time and everybody changed chairs there. There didn't seem to be anything open for me so I took a job with the University of North Dakota at Minot Air Force Base in the Air Force Institute of Technology program. The AFIT program. We transferred their master of engineering degree to an M.B.A. degree while I was there and I was there for a couple of years. And from there, I transferred to Penn State University and I was at the Middletown campus. My office overlooked Three Mile Island. I was there for sixteen years, I believe. I did teach up at State College one semester. Then, for family reasons, I left Penn State. I was tenured and everything but I left Penn 14 State and came to UMASS Dartmouth here for family reasons, health reasons. And I did ten years over here. At that point in time, I retired from UMASS but, in the meantime, had picked up some work for the University of South Pacific at Fiji. So, I worked off and on during a five-year period in the year 2000 over there. JC: Okay. HG: Currently, I am volunteering at the National Graduate School of Quality Management here in Falmouth, which is an online type program. I am the director of the alumni program, which they've never had before. So, it's an experiment and it may be a futile activity but I'm giving it the best go I can give it as a Norwich guy. I'm not alumni but I'm their director. I'm modelling it after the Norwich Alumni Association. As a matter of fact, I used Norwich's bylaws in modifying to try to make them fit this school's program. So, that's where I am to this moment and I don't know how much longer that'll last. I've been doing it for a couple years now and probably give it another, 2017 may be my last year of doing that. Depends upon what my success is this year. JC: Well, you've had a lot of schooling. How did your training at Norwich prepare you for life, specifically? HG: Very well. Very well. In retrospect, I wouldn't have it any other way. It taught me to roll with the punches. You can't have everything your way all the time. To get along, you've got to go along and cooperate and you graduate. I think, probably, the teamwork idea was imbedded, not so much in a pointed way but in an overall way of existing and finishing up your, what you started. We had to work with other people. I started out as an individual and I think I came out as a person who understood that to get along in this world, you're going to have to work with other people and depend upon other people. Now, I probably, even to this day, I'm a volunteer and I know that I have, I have no resources. I have no budget. I don't have even office space, so to speak, except out of the house. Working with some adult people over here and I know that I depend upon them for everything I get done and I acknowledge that very, very fully to the best extent I can. Because I know that their cooperation, my success depends upon them. Without them, I'll die on the vine. I think Norwich has taught me that concept. Oh! I think I didn't mention to you. You probably were aware of this. I created, for the bicentennial, a puzzle. JC: Yes! You did. HG: You're aware of that? So, I put that together. JC: Mm hmm. 15 HG: And, you know, the thing is, the way that transpired, nobody seemed to want me to do it. Sometimes, that rubs me the wrong way. So, I says, "I don't care if you don't want me to do it. I'm going to do it anyway!" JC: Yeah. HG: So, I did it and quite amazed at how it turned out! There's a gentleman next door who's a graphic artist and he's good on the computer. That's what he does for a living. I got the university photographer, they let me access the photographs. I picked and chose some photographs, brought them over to Sean. I said, "Sean, what can you do for me?" He says, "Let me see those." So, we looked. He says, "I'll have something for you tomorrow." He brought over the thing. "What do you think of that?" Well, we made some adjustments and so forth. My wife has a friend who does puzzles and she brought over to our house a wooden puzzle that she had bought for the Lilly family, the big drug people here in Falmouth, a lot of property and donor, a very big benefactor. I said, "Maybe we could have a wooden puzzle for what I've created for Norwich." So, I contacted a guy in Connecticut and he says, "Yeah. If you're willing to pay the price, I can make that for you. No problem." So, I says, "Okay. Let's go with that." I've even gone down there and I've even worked the puzzle thing myself. My wife and I watched him make, it's an example of his work. Got that done. Made a contact overseas. Got somebody to stamp out those puzzles. I bought four dozen of them. Gave them to the school and said, "Use them at will." Then, I gave Sullivan, no, I gave Schneider a wooden one and I think he turned it over to the, the wooden one I gave him because I didn't want it. What was it going to do with me? So, I gave to him and he put it in the museum, I think. JC: It's at the museum. HG: It was a labor of love. That's all. I just did it because I didn't find the support that I thought I might have gotten from the bicentennial committee but they had bigger items on their agenda. This was not going to fit into the program, I guess. And then, I was involved, at one time, with a committee on postage stamps and I had done a lot of work and I was really disappointed. I got mixed messages from U.S. Postal Service as to whether the images that I submitted weren't, "They're fine. We're going to submit them for postmaster consideration." Then, I get a message from somebody else on the committee saying, "No. We're not." And you can't reach anybody on that committee because they're, you just don't have any contact information for them except maybe names. But now I understand that they did release, or rerelease of the Alden Partridge stamp for the ROTC commemorative. They said that now Schneider's got himself behind the request for a Norwich postcard set which is what they usually do. I think if they don't do something for Norwich for the bicentennial, there's got to be something wrong in Washington. I hope they follow through. I sort of dropped out of the picture because it's now gone beyond my involvement. But I filed all the paperwork and everything else necessary for that. Hopefully, we'll see something come to pass. 16 JC: Hopefully so. HG: Yeah. I was told that one the things, they said, "Well, you've got to get the postmaster in Northfield involved. And I said, "Well, I'm not in a position to do that. You're right there in town." The bicentennial committee itself could just go to the postmaster and say, "We want to issue the stamp." And if he supports it, I guess, or postcards, they don't, the stamps are a little more dicey to get through. But the postcards are pretty easy to do, I guess. So, maybe, we'll see what happens. I don't know. I've lost touch with that group. The last I heard was that they upgraded the applications or something by getting Schneider's support and some other people supporting it too. That'll be good. JC: Yeah. Hopefully, that'll work out. HG: Yeah. JC: Well, that's about your involvement with Norwich. HG: Mm hmm. JC: How do you think your professional life would have been different had you not been a Norwich graduate? HG: Oh, dear. Tremendously different because Norwich set me on a military career. It set me up for a military lifestyle, in a way, although I didn't go there with that idea at all nor did I graduate with that but it just sort of grew on you. I can recall, being a reservist, I would say, "Well, maybe I'll just stop going. I'll just give up." One year led to another year and before I knew it I had thirty years and six months and I was boarded out. I got considered for general officer and I didn't make it. I understood why. My competitor, I knew who that person was and a lot of stuff on his chest that I, ribbons on his chest that I didn't have and I figured he was more entitled to it or earned it more than I did. He had combat time. I didn't have any combat time at all. I was in a war zone, Korean War, but that was over practically. So, I think Norwich set me up for that whole aspect of my life. The academic part of it came about, my industrial area was focused on my engineering experience and math and science and so forth. And then, my academic life, all the way from doing some consulting work and so forth and having the idea of a continuous learning environment. I just kept on going to school, both militarily and civilian-wise. I took many, many a correspondence program. I went to Fort Leavenworth to the Command and General Staff School. I taught Command and General Staff School. I taught at the Army War College in Carlisle, both as a military faculty member and as an academic Penn State, because we had a program with them. JC: Right. 17 HG: You know, I'm amazed at the kinds of things I got involved in and I attribute it all to Norwich. If I had gone to URI like I wanted to heavens knows what I would have become, if I ever graduated. Or if I'd gone on to Georgia Tech, I might have failed out! Who knows? Norwich kept me going. I did hit the dean's list a couple times while at Norwich but I was no stellar student. Sullivan and I share one common thread. We both were privates for four years. JC: Yep. HG: And, you know, I'm not proud of that but we survived. He did very well militarily, obviously. Much better than I did! He got, what, four stars. I got the eagle but, nevertheless, I think that Norwich did us both very well. JC: I think so too. Has being a Norwich graduate opened doors for you that might not have been opened otherwise? HG: I thought, militarily, yes. Yeah. I can clearly recall early on in my career, when I was living up in North Andover. I was in the Reserve unit in Boston. The fellow that was in command of that unit, he loved Norwich guys. So, I got signed to his unit. Having somebody who was favorably disposed to where you're from certainly is helpful in the image that you are going to create if you live up to the person's perception of the school. JC: Right. HG: And I did very well. So, I think that opened me up for captain and major level of consideration. From then on, it was, an interesting little thing was when I worked for Penn State, I had a student by the name of Emmett Page. He was one of the Army War College students that were taking the master's program at Penn State. I was a faculty member, teaching him a course and I was over at the graduate program over there, teaching in their program, the military. Came time for me to have an assignment, as a colonel. Guess who I ended up being assigned to? JC: Emmett Page? HG: General Page. Laughs. He was in charge of the electronic research and development command in Adelphi, Maryland. I was his assistant. JC: Oh. Wow. HG: So, I got an assistant commander position with him as a colonel. I'd go down there and he'd say, "Harold," because I was in quality, he says, "I got some contracts out there. I want you to go to these contractors and see what they're doing and jack them up if they need jacking up." Laughs.) I had a great relationship with Emmett. I followed up with him a little bit afterwards. He was 18 my former student, was now my boss. I was grading him and now he was grading me! It's a small world. JC: Yes. It is! HG: Another interesting situation too was, we're in Japan, my wife and I together, concurrent travel. We'd had a major social event in Tokyo. I don't know what level it was, battalion, it wasn't a battalion party. It had to be higher up than that, maybe a Sullivan Theater type thing. Anyway, we went to it and who do we run in to? Colonel Burkle. Burkle was on campus at the time and his greeting to me and my wife when we got together, "Lieutenant Gilmore, your brass is shiny." Laughs. I says, "You can thank Mrs. Gilmore for that." See, most of my fun happened after I got out of Norwich. Yeah, Colonel Burkle. I think he was a colonel at the time. "Your brass is shiny." I said, "Yep. Thank Mrs. Gilmore for that." Oh, dear. I could go on and on and on, I guess. Been a long time. JC: Mm hmm. Do you think Norwich graduates have a special bond that other people don't? HG: Oh! Definitely! Definitely! Oh, yes. I see it in my children who graduated from Penn State. There's nothing like, these online programs, there's no bonding at all! JC: Right. HG: It's like dealing with particles in the air, dust particles, but Norwich, that experience there puts you into close proximity with other people. It served me so well. Al Gardner, I talked with on the phone all the time. Up until Garry Moushegian's demise, he died up in Norwood, MA, with him all the time. Fred Maier, Jack Gillis passed away. My roommate, Bartlett, Jack Gillis, Garry Mousehegian, they all died within a matter of months of each other. I lost all my, so now there's just Fred left and Al Gardner. So, I've got two very close friends. Other people I know but not quite as, as I said, we socially went everywhere with each other, cruises and all that stuff, you know. Families knew each other. Kids knew each other and stuff of that nature. So, yes. Norwich does create a separate, a special relationship, I think, amongst us graduates. JC: Mm hmm. Um, let me see. We've already answered that question. HG: Mm hmm. JC: Um, you've just answered that question. What advice would you give a rook about how to survive and thrive at Norwich? HG: Go with the flow. Join the program full heartedly. Don't fight it. Join it. And see what you can do to excel in it. 19 JC: Mm hmm. HG: I probably chose, I wouldn't say the opposite path but I resisted. I resisted the program and suffered for it, without getting any rank and you don't get ahead in the world that way. You're going to participate in the program and probably if you can't do that full heartedly, you might do better elsewhere. It's not a place for everybody, the military part of it anyway, the Corp. Now that Norwich has a civilian component, you know, Norwich is a nice school and it's a nice environment and Vermont's a pleasant place to enjoy the winter months and so forth. Can't complain about the environment. If you like a rural environment, it's fine. And I grew up in a rural environment so I didn't really rail at that sort of thing. Although, I sent my granddaughter up there for a campus visit and she came back, "Gramp, the place is not for me." She says, "I'm going to be a minority." I said, "What do you mean?" She says, "Well, I'm not going to join the Corp. I'm going to be a civilian. Right now, I detect that they're a minority up there." JC: Mm hmm. HG: I says, "Well, it's a wise maneuver not to go there. You've got to be happy where you are to do the best you can do." My advice to a rook is you've got to decide whether you're going to be happy in this environment or not. If you are, you'll do well. If not, you're not going to do as well. You might get through, but you won't be the success that you could be maybe someplace else. I have two grandsons. I've got three grandsons but two older ones. I tried to talk them into going to Norwich. Mother was not military-oriented and things were not so, we were at war. We've been at war for so long they don't know what it's like to be without it but she didn't think that was the thing to do. I do have a grandson here locally but he's going to Mass Maritime Academy. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: So, he's quasi-military, in a way. I think that he'll finish that program up in two or three years. He didn't want to go to Norwich either. I don't know why. I don't think he gave it a chance, because he likes to ski. He's an outdoors boy. He would do well. He's got the military bearing and so forth, but he chose the Maritime as a place to go. He did hear that employment opportunities were greatest at Mass Maritime and they are. You graduate from that place, you get a job. JC: Mm hmm. HG: If you've got anything going for you at all. Norwich used to be able to say, "You're going to get a commission." But that's not true anymore either. JC: No. It's not. 20 HG: The place is not going to sell itself with providing a vocation after you're through. Where this place practically does. So, he was encouraged to go. It's local and so forth. JC: Yeah. So, you didn't have any relatives that attended Norwich? HG: Hmm? JC: You didn't have any relatives that attended Norwich? HG: No. I didn't. I don't have anybody that went to Norwich. No. None of them. JC: Well, is there anything else? HG: No. By golly, we've had quite an enjoyable interview. I've had some fun talking to you. I can't think of much more. JC: Well, I thank you very much. HG: I enjoyed it. Thank you, too. End of recording.

HapMap imputed genome-wide association studies (GWAS) have revealed >50 loci at which common variants with minor allele frequency >5% are associated with kidney function. GWAS using more complete reference sets for imputation, such as those from The 1000 Genomes project, promise to identify novel loci that have been missed by previous efforts. To investigate the value of such a more complete variant catalog, we conducted a GWAS meta-analysis of kidney function based on the estimated glomerular filtration rate (eGFR) in 110,517 European ancestry participants using 1000 Genomes imputed data. We identified 10 novel loci with p-value < 5 × 10−8 previously missed by HapMap-based GWAS. Six of these loci (HOXD8, ARL15, PIK3R1, EYA4, ASTN2, and EPB41L3) are tagged by common SNPs unique to the 1000 Genomes reference panel. Using pathway analysis, we identified 39 significant (FDR < 0.05) genes and 127 significantly (FDR < 0.05) enriched gene sets, which were missed by our previous analyses. Among those, the 10 identified novel genes are part of pathways of kidney development, carbohydrate metabolism, cardiac septum development and glucose metabolism. These results highlight the utility of re-imputing from denser reference panels, until whole-genome sequencing becomes feasible in large samples. ; 3C. Three-City Study. The work was made possible by the participation of the control subjects, the patients, and their families. We thank Dr. Anne Boland (CNG) for her technical help in preparing the DNA samples for analyses. This work was supported by the National Foundation for Alzheimer's disease and related disorders, the Institut Pasteur de Lille and the Centre National de Génotypage. The 3C Study was performed as part of a collaboration between the Institut National de la Santé et de la Recherche Médicale (Inserm), the Victor Segalen Bordeaux II University and Sanofi-Synthélabo. The Fondation pour la Recherche Médicale funded the preparation and initiation of the study. The 3C Study was also funded by the Caisse Nationale Maladie des Travailleurs Salariés, Direction Générale de la Santé, MGEN, Institut de la Longévité, Agence Française de Sécurité Sanitaire des Produits de Santé, the Aquitaine and Bourgogne Regional Councils, Fondation de France and the joint French Ministry of Research/INSERM "Cohortes et collections de données biologiques" programme. Lille Génopôle received an unconditional grant from Eisai. AGES. Age, Gene/Environment Susceptibility-Reykjavik Study. This study has been funded by NIH contract N01-AG-1-2100, the NIA Intramural Research Program, Hjartavernd (the Icelandic Heart Association), and the Althingi (the Icelandic Parliament). The study is approved by the Icelandic National Bioethics Committee, VSN: 00-063. The researchers are indebted to the participants for their willingness to participate in the study. ARIC. Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities study. The ARIC study is carried out as a collaborative study supported by National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute contracts (HHSN268201100005C, HHSN268201100006C, HHSN268201100007C, HHSN268201100008C, HHSN268201100009C, HHSN268201100010C, HHSN268201100011C, and HHSN268201100012C), R01HL087641, R01HL59367 and R01HL086694; National Human Genome Research Institute contract U01HG004402; and National Institutes of Health contract HHSN268200625226C. The authors thank the staff and participants of the ARIC study for their important contributions. Infrastructure was partly supported by Grant Number UL1RR025005, a component of the National Institutes of Health and NIH Roadmap for Medical Research. This work as well as YL and AK were supported by the German Research Foundation (KO 3598/2-1, KO 3598/3-1 and CRC1140 A05 to AK). ASPS. Austrian Stroke Prevention Study. The research reported in this article was funded by the Austrian Science Fond (FWF) grant number P20545-P05 and P13180. The Medical University of Graz supports the databank of the ASPS. The authors thank the staff and the participants of the ASPS for their valuable contributions. We thank Birgit Reinhart for her long-term administrative commitment and Ing Johann Semmler for the technical assistance at creating the DNA-bank. BMES. Blue Mountains Eye Study. The BMES has been supported by the Australian RADGAC grant (1992- 94) and Australian National Health & Medical Research Council, Canberra Australia (Grant Nos: 974159, 211069, 991407, 457349). The GWAS studies of Blue Mountains Eye Study population are supported by the Australian National Health & Medical Research Council (Grant Nos: 512423, 475604, 529912) and the Wellcome Trust, UK (2008). EGH and JJW are funded by the Australian National Health & Medical Research Council Fellowship Schemes. CILENTO. Italian Network on Genetic Isolates – Cilento. We thank the populations of Cilento for their participation in the study. The study was supported by the Italian Ministry of Universities and CNR 36 (PON03PE_00060_7, Interomics Flagship Project), the Assessorato Ricerca Regione Campania, the Fondazione con il SUD (2011-PDR-13), and the Istituto Banco di Napoli - Fondazione to MC. COLAUS. The CoLaus authors thank Yolande Barreau, Mathieu Firmann, Vladimir Mayor, Anne-Lise Bastian, Binasa Ramic, Martine Moranville, Martine Baumer, Marcy Sagette, Jeanne Ecoffey and Sylvie Mermoud for data collection. The CoLaus study received financial contributions from GlaxoSmithKline, the Faculty of Biology and Medicine of Lausanne, the Swiss National Science Foundation (33CSCO- 122661, 3200BO-111361/2, 3100AO-116323/1, 310000-112552). The computations for CoLaus imputation were performed in part at the Vital-IT center for high performance computing of the Swiss Institute of Bioinformatics. We thank Vincent Mooser for his contribution to the CoLaus study. EGCUT. Estonian Genome Center University of Tartu. EGCUT received financing from FP7 grants (278913, 306031, 313010) and targeted financing from Estonian Government (SF0180142s08). EGCUT studies were covered from Infra-structure grant no. 3.2.0304.11-0312 funded mostly by the European Regional Development Fund, Center of Excellence in Genomics (EXCEGEN) and University of Tartu (SP1GVARENG). We acknowledge EGCUT technical personnel, especially Mr V. Soo and S. Smit. Data analyses were carried out in part in the High Performance Computing Center of the University of Tartu. FamHS. Family Heart Study. The FHS work was supported in part by NIH grants 5R01HL08770003, 5R01HL08821502 (Michael A. Province) from the NHLBI and 5R01DK07568102, 5R01DK06833603 from the NIDDK (I.B.B.). The authors thank the staff and participants of the FamHS for their important contributions. FHS. Framingham Heart Study. This research was conducted in part using data and resources from the Framingham Heart Study of the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute of the National Institutes of Health and Boston University School of Medicine. The analyses reflect intellectual input and resource development from the Framingham Heart Study investigators participating in the SNP Health Association Resource (SHARe) project. This work was partially supported by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute's Framingham Heart Study (Contract No. N01-HC-25195) and its contract with Affymetrix, Inc. for genotyping services (Contract No. N02-HL-6-4278). A portion of this research utilized the Linux Cluster for Genetic Analysis (LinGA-II) funded by the Robert Dawson Evans Endowment of the Department of Medicine at Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center. GENDIAN. GENetics of DIAbetic Nephropathy study. The support of the physicians, the patients, and the staff of the Diabetes Zentrum Mergentheim (Head: Prof. Dr. Thomas Haak), the diabetes outpatient clinic Dr Nusser - Dr Kreisel, the dialysis centers KfH Amberg, KfH Bayreuth, KfH Deggendorf, KfH Donauwörth, KfH Freising, KfH Freyung, KfH Fürth, KfH Hof, KfH Ingolstadt, KfH Kelheim, KfH München Elsenheimerstraße, KfH München-Schwabing, KfH Neumarkt, KfH Neusäß, KfH Oberschleißheim, KfH Passau, KfH Plauen, KfH Regensburg Günzstraße, KfH Regensburg Caritas-Krankenhaus, KfH Straubing, KfH Sulzbach-Rosenberg, KfH Weiden, Dialysezentrum Augsburg Dr. Kirschner, Dialysezentrum Bad Alexandersbad, KfH Bamberg, Dialysezentrum Emmering, Dialysezentrum Klinikum Landshut, Dialysezentrum Landshut, Dialysezentrum Pfarrkirchen, Dialysezentrum Schwandorf, Dr. Angela Götz, the medical doctoral student Johanna Christ and the Study Nurse Ingrid Lugauer. The expert technical assistance of Claudia Strohmeier is acknowledged. Phenotyping was funded by the Dr. Robert PflegerStiftung (Dr Carsten A. Böger), the MSD Stipend Diabetes (Dr Carsten A. Böger) and the University Hospital of Regensburg (intramural grant ReForM A to Dr. A. Götz, ReForM C to Dr. Carsten Böger). Genome-wide genotyping was funded by the KfH Stiftung Präventivmedizin e.V. (Dr. Carsten A. Böger, Dr. Jens Brüning), the Else Kröner-Fresenius-Stiftung (2012_A147 to Dr Carsten A. Böger and Dr Iris M. Heid) and the University Hospital Regensburg (Dr Carsten A. Böger). Data analysis was funded by the Else 37 Kröner-Fresenius Stiftung (Dr. Iris M. Heid and Dr. Carsten A. Böger: 2012_A147; Dr. Carsten A. Böger and Dr. Bernhard K. Krämer: P48/08//A11/08). GENDIAN Study Group: Mathias Gorski, Iris M. Heid, Bernhard K. Krämer, Myriam Rheinberger, Michael Broll, Alexander Lammert, Jens Brüning, Matthias Olden, Klaus Stark, Claudia Strohmeier, Simone Neumeier, Sarah Hufnagel, Petra Jackermeier, Emilia Ruff, Johanna Christ, Peter Nürnberg, Thomas Haak, Carsten A. Böger. HABC. Health Aging and Body Composition Study. The HABC study was funded by the National Institutes of Aging. This research was supported by NIA contracts N01AG62101, N01AG62103, and N01AG62106. The genome-wide association study was funded by NIA grant 1R01AG032098-01A1 to Wake Forest University Health Sciences and genotyping services were provided by the Center for Inherited Disease Research (CIDR). CIDR is fully funded through a federal contract from the National Institutes of Health to The Johns Hopkins University, contract number HHSN268200782096C. This research was supported in part by the Intramural Research Program of the NIH, National Institute on Aging. HCS. Hunter Community Study. The University of Newcastle provided $300,000 from its Strategic Initiatives Fund, and $600,000 from the Gladys M Brawn Senior Research Fellowship scheme; Vincent Fairfax Family Foundation, a private philanthropic trust, provided $195,000; The Hunter Medical Research Institute provided media support during the initial recruitment of participants; and Dr Anne Crotty, Prof. Rodney Scott and Associate Prof. Levi provided financial support towards freezing costs for the long-term storage of participant blood samples. The authors would like to thank the men and women participating in the HCS as well as all the staff, investigators and collaborators who have supported or been involved in the project to date. A special thank you should go to Alison Koschel and Debbie Quain who were instrumental in setting up the pilot study and initial phase of the project. HPFS. Health Professionals Follow-Up Study. The NHS/HPFS type 2 diabetes GWAS (U01HG004399) is a component of a collaborative project that includes 13 other GWAS (U01HG004738, U01HG004422, U01HG004402, U01HG004729, U01HG004726, U01HG004735, U01HG004415, U01HG004436, U01HG004423, U01HG004728, RFAHG006033; National Institute of Dental & Craniofacial Research: U01DE018993, U01DE018903) funded as part of the Gene Environment-Association Studies (GENEVA) under the NIH Genes, Environment and Health Initiative (GEI). Assistance with phenotype harmonization and genotype cleaning, as well as with general study coordination, was provided by the GENEVA Coordinating Center (U01HG004446). Assistance with data cleaning was provided by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. Genotyping was performed at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, with funding support from the NIH GEI (U01HG04424), and Johns Hopkins University Center for Inherited Disease Research, with support from the NIH GEI (U01HG004438) and the NIH contract "High throughput genotyping for studying the genetic contributions to human disease"(HHSN268200782096C). Additional funding for the current research was provided by the National Cancer Institute (P01CA087969, P01CA055075), and the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (R01DK058845). We thank the staff and participants of the NHS and HPFS for their dedication and commitment. INGI-CARLANTINO. Italian Network on Genetic Isolates – Carlantino. We thank Anna Morgan and Angela D'Eustacchio for technical support. We are grateful to the municipal administrators for their collaboration on the project and for logistic support. We thank all participants to this study. INGI-FVG. Italian Network on Genetic Isolates – Friuli Venezia-Giulia. We thank Anna Morgan and Angela D'Eustacchio for technical support. We are grateful to the municipal administrators for their collaboration on the project and for logistic support. We thank all participants to this study. 38 INGI-VAL BORBERA. Italian Network on Genetic Isolates – Val Borbera. We thank the inhabitants of the Val Borbera who made this study possible, the local administrations and the ASL-Novi Ligure (Al) for support. We also thank Clara Camaschella for data collection supervision and organization of the clinical data collection, Fiammetta Vigano` for technical help and Corrado Masciullo for building the analysis platform. The research was supported by funds from Compagnia di San Paolo, Torino, Italy; Fondazione Cariplo, Italy and Ministry of Health, Ricerca Finalizzata 2008 and 2011/2012, CCM 2010, PRIN 2009 and Telethon, Italy to DT. IPM. Mount Sinai BioMe Biobank Program. The Mount Sinai BioMe Biobank Program is supported by The Andrea and Charles Bronfman Philanthropies. KORA-F3 and F4. The genetic epidemiological work was funded by the NIH subcontract from the Children's Hospital, Boston, US, (H.E.W., I.M.H, prime grant 1 R01 DK075787-01A1), the German National Genome Research Net NGFN2 and NGFNplus (H.E.W. 01GS0823; WK project A3, number 01GS0834), the Munich Center of Health Sciences (MC Health) as part of LMUinnovativ, and by the Else KrönerFresenius-Stiftung (P48/08//A11/08; C.A.B., B.K.K; 2012_A147 to CAB and IMH.). The Genetic Epidemiology at the University of Regensburg received financial contributions from the BMBF (01ER1206 and 01ER1507). The kidney parameter measurements in F3 were funded by the Else Kröner-FreseniusStiftung (C.A.B., B.K.K.) and the Regensburg University Medical Center, Germany; in F4 by the University of Ulm, Germany (W.K.). Genome wide genotyping costs in F3 and F4 were in part funded by the Else Kröner-Fresenius-Stiftung (C.A.B., B.K.K.). De novo genotyping in F3 and F4 were funded by the Else Kröner-Fresenius-Stiftung (C.A.B., B.K.K.). The KORA research platform and the MONICA Augsburg studies were initiated and financed by the Helmholtz Zentrum München, German Research Center for Environmental Health, by the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research and by the State of Bavaria. Genotyping was performed in the Genome Analysis Center (GAC) of the Helmholtz Zentrum München. The LINUX platform for computation were funded by the University of Regensburg for the Department of Epidemiology and Preventive Medicine at the Regensburg University Medical Center. LIFELINES. The authors wish to acknowledge the services of the Lifelines Cohort Study, the contributing research centers delivering data to Lifelines, and all the study participants. Lifelines group authors: Behrooz Z Alizadeh1 , H Marike Boezen1 , Lude Franke2 , Pim van der Harst3 , Gerjan Navis4 , Marianne Rots5 , Harold Snieder1 , Morris Swertz2 , Bruce HR Wolffenbuttel6 and Cisca Wijmenga2 1. Department of Epidemiology, University of Groningen, University Medical Center Groningen, The Netherlands 2. Department of Genetics, University of Groningen, University Medical Center Groningen, The Netherlands 3. Department of Cardiology, University of Groningen, University Medical Center Groningen, The Netherlands 4. Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Nephrology, University of Groningen, University Medical Center Groningen, The Netherlands 5. Department of Medical Biology, University of Groningen, University Medical Center Groningen, The Netherlands 6. Department of Endocrinology, University of Groningen, University Medical Center Groningen, The Netherlands MESA. Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis. University of Washington (N01-HC-95159),Regents of the University of California (N01-HC-95160), Columbia University (N01-HC-95161), Johns Hopkins University 39 (N01-HC-95162, N01-HC-95168), University of Minnesota (N01-HC-95163), Northwestern University (N01-HC-95164), Wake Forest University (N01-HC-95165), University of Vermont (N01-HC-95166), New England Medical Center (N01-HC-95167), Harbor-UCLA Research and Education Institute (N01-HC- 95169), Cedars-Sinai Medical Center (R01-HL-071205), University of Virginia (subcontract to R01-HL- 071205) MICROS. Microisolates in South Tyrol study. We owe a debt of gratitude to all participants. We thank the primary care practitioners R. Stocker, S. Waldner, T. Pizzecco, J. Plangger, U. Marcadent and the personnel of the Hospital of Silandro (Department of Laboratory Medicine) for their participation and collaboration in the research project. In South Tyrol, the study was supported by the Ministry of Health and Department of Educational Assistance, University and Research of the Autonomous Province of Bolzano, the South Tyrolean Sparkasse Foundation, and the European Union framework program 6 EUROSPAN project (contract no. LSHG-CT-2006-018947). NESDA. The Netherlands Study of Depression and Anxiety. The infrastructure for the NESDA study is funded through the Geestkracht programme of the Dutch Scientific Organization (ZON-MW, grant number 10-000-1002) and matching funds from participating universities and mental health care organizations. Genotyping in NESDA was funded by the Genetic Association Information Network (GAIN) of the Foundation for the US National Institutes of Health. NHS. Nurses' Health Study. The NHS/HPFS type 2 diabetes GWAS (U01HG004399) is a component of a collaborative project that includes 13 other GWAS (U01HG004738, U01HG004422, U01HG004402, U01HG004729, U01HG004726, U01HG004735, U01HG004415, U01HG004436, U01HG004423, U01HG004728, RFAHG006033; National Institute of Dental & Craniofacial Research: U01DE018993, U01DE018903) funded as part of the Gene Environment-Association Studies (GENEVA) under the NIH Genes, Environment and Health Initiative (GEI). Assistance with phenotype harmonization and genotype cleaning, as well as with general study coordination, was provided by the GENEVA Coordinating Center (U01HG004446). Assistance with data cleaning was provided by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. Genotyping was performed at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, with funding support from the NIH GEI (U01HG04424), and Johns Hopkins University Center for Inherited Disease Research, with support from the NIH GEI (U01HG004438) and the NIH contract "High throughput genotyping for studying the genetic contributions to human disease"(HHSN268200782096C). The NHS renal function and albuminuria work was supported by DK66574. Additional funding for the current research was provided by the National Cancer Institute (P01CA087969, P01CA055075), and the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (R01DK058845). We thank the staff and participants of the NHS and HPFS for their dedication and commitment. NSPHS. The Northern Swedish Population Health Study. The NSPHS was supported by grants from the Swedish Natural Sciences Research Council, the European Union through the EUROSPAN project (contract no. LSHG-CT-2006-018947), the Foundation for Strategic Research (SSF) and the Linneaus Centre for Bioinformatics (LCB). We are also grateful for the contribution of samples from the Medical Biobank in Umeå and for the contribution of the district nurse Svea Hennix in the Karesuando study. RS-I. The Rotterdam Study. The GWA study was funded by the Netherlands Organisation of Scientific Research NWO Investments (nr. 175.010.2005.011, 911-03-012), the Research Institute for Diseases in the Elderly (014-93-015; RIDE2), the Netherlands Genomics Initiative (NGI)/Netherlands Consortium for Healthy Aging (NCHA) project nr. 050-060-810. We thank Pascal Arp, Mila Jhamai, Dr Michael 40 Moorhouse, Marijn Verkerk, and Sander Bervoets for their help in creating the GWAS database. The Rotterdam Study is funded by Erasmus Medical Center and Erasmus University, Rotterdam, Netherlands Organization for the Health Research and Development (ZonMw), the Research Institute for Diseases in the Elderly (RIDE), the Ministry of Education, Culture and Science, the Ministry for Health, Welfare and Sports, the European Commission (DG XII), and the Municipality of Rotterdam. The authors are very grateful to the participants and staff from the Rotterdam Study, the participating general practitioners and the pharmacists. We would like to thank Dr. Tobias A. Knoch, Luc V. de Zeeuw, Anis Abuseiris, and Rob de Graaf as well as their institutions the Erasmus Computing Grid, Rotterdam, The Netherlands, and especially the national German MediGRID and Services@MediGRID part of the German D-Grid, both funded by the German Bundesministerium fuer Forschung und Technology under grants #01 AK 803 A-H and # 01 IG 07015 G, for access to their grid resources. Abbas Dehghan is supported by NWO grant (vici, 918-76-619). SAPALDIA. Swiss Study on Air Pollution and Lung Diseases in Adults. The SAPALDIA Team: Study directorate: T Rochat (p), NM Probst Hensch (e/g), N Künzli (e/exp), C Schindler (s), JM Gaspoz (c) Scientific team: JC Barthélémy (c), W Berger (g), R Bettschart (p), A Bircher (a), O Brändli (p), C Brombach (n), M Brutsche (p), L Burdet (p), M Frey (p), U Frey (pd), MW Gerbase (p), D Gold (e/c/p), E de Groot (c), W Karrer (p), R Keller (p), B Martin (pa), D Miedinger (o), U Neu (exp), L Nicod (p), M Pons (p), F Roche (c), T Rothe (p), E Russi (p), P Schmid-Grendelmeyer (a), A Schmidt-Trucksäss (pa), A Turk (p), J Schwartz (e), D. Stolz (p), P Straehl (exp), JM Tschopp (p), A von Eckardstein (cc), E Zemp Stutz (e). Scientific team at coordinating centers: M Adam (e/g), C Autenrieth (pa), PO Bridevaux (p), D Carballo (c), E Corradi (exp), I Curjuric (e), J Dratva (e), A Di Pasquale (s), E Dupuis Lozeron (s), E Fischer (e), M Germond (s), L Grize (s), D Keidel (s), S Kriemler (pa), A Kumar (g), M Imboden (g), N Maire (s), A Mehta (e), H Phuleria (exp), E Schaffner (s), GA Thun (g) A Ineichen (exp), M Ragettli (e), M Ritter (exp), T Schikowski (e), M Tarantino (s), M Tsai (exp) (a) allergology, (c) cardiology, (cc) clinical chemistry, (e) epidemiology, (exp) exposure, (g) genetic and molecular biology, (m) meteorology, (n) nutrition, (o) occupational health, (p) pneumology, (pa) physical activity, (pd) pediatrics, (s) statistics. Funding: The Swiss National Science Foundation (grants no 33CSCO-134276/1, 33CSCO-108796, 3247BO-104283, 3247BO-104288, 3247BO- 104284, 3247-065896, 3100-059302, 3200-052720, 3200-042532, 4026-028099), the Federal Office for Forest, Environment and Landscape, the Federal Office of Public Health, the Federal Office of Roads and Transport, the canton's government of Aargau, Basel-Stadt, Basel-Land, Geneva, Luzern, Ticino, Valais, and Zürich, the Swiss Lung League, the canton's Lung League of Basel Stadt/ Basel Landschaft, Geneva, Ticino, Valais and Zurich, SUVA, Freiwillige Akademische Gesellschaft, UBS Wealth Foundation, Talecris Biotherapeutics GmbH, Abbott Diagnostics, European Commission 018996 (GABRIEL), Wellcome Trust WT 084703MA. The study could not have been done without the help of the study participants, technical and administrative support and the medical teams and field workers at the local study sites. Local fieldworkers : Aarau: S Brun, G Giger, M Sperisen, M Stahel, Basel: C Bürli, C Dahler, N Oertli, I Harreh, F Karrer, G Novicic, N Wyttenbacher, Davos: A Saner, P Senn, R Winzeler, Geneva: F Bonfils, B Blicharz, C Landolt, J Rochat, Lugano: S Boccia, E Gehrig, MT Mandia, G Solari, B Viscardi, Montana: AP Bieri, C Darioly, M Maire, Payerne: F Ding, P Danieli A Vonnez, Wald: D Bodmer, E Hochstrasser, R Kunz, C Meier, J Rakic, U Schafroth, A Walder. Administrative staff: C Gabriel, R Gutknecht. SHIP and SHIP-TREND. The Study of Health in Pomerania. SHIP is part of the Community Medicine Research net of the University of Greifswald, Germany, which is funded by the Federal Ministry of Education and Research (grants no. 01ZZ9603, 01ZZ0103, and 01ZZ0403), the Ministry of Cultural Affairs as well as the Social Ministry of the Federal State of Mecklenburg-West Pomerania, and the network 41 'Greifswald Approach to Individualized Medicine (GANI_MED)' funded by the Federal Ministry of Education and Research (grant 03IS2061A). Genome-wide data have been supported by the Federal Ministry of Education and Research (grant no. 03ZIK012) and a joint grant from Siemens Healthcare, Erlangen, Germany and the Federal State of Mecklenburg- West Pomerania. The University of Greifswald is a member of the 'Center of Knowledge Interchange' program of the Siemens AG and the Caché Campus program of the InterSystems GmbH. The SHIP authors are grateful to Mario Stanke for the opportunity to use his Server Cluster for the SNP imputation as well as to Holger Prokisch and Thomas Meitinger (Helmholtz Zentrum München) for the genotyping of the SHIP-TREND cohort. TRAILS. TRacking Adolescents' Individual Lives. Trails is a collaborative project involving various departments of the University Medical Center and University of Groningen, the Erasmus University Medical Center Rotterdam, the University of Utrecht, the Radboud Medical Center Nijmegen, and the Parnassia Bavo group, all in the Netherlands. TRAILS has been financially supported by grants from the Netherlands Organization for Scientific Research NWO (Medical Research Council program grant GB-MW 940-38-011; ZonMW Brainpower grant 100-001-004; ZonMw Risk Behavior and Dependence grants 60- 60600-98-018 and 60-60600-97-118; ZonMw Culture and Health grant 261-98-710; Social Sciences Council medium-sized investment grants GB-MaGW 480-01-006 and GB-MaGW 480-07-001; Social Sciences Council project grants GB-MaGW 457-03-018, GB-MaGW 452-04-314, and GB-MaGW 452-06- 004; NWO large-sized investment grant 175.010.2003.005; NWO Longitudinal Survey and Panel Funding 481-08-013); the Sophia Foundation for Medical Research (projects 301 and 393), the Dutch Ministry of Justice (WODC), the European Science Foundation (EuroSTRESS project FP-006), and the participating universities. We are grateful to all adolescents, their parents and teachers who participated in this research and to everyone who worked on this project and made it possible. Statistical analyses were carried out on the Genetic Cluster Computer (http://www.geneticcluster.org), which is financially supported by the Netherlands Scientific Organization (NWO 480-05-003) along with a supplement from the Dutch Brain Foundation. WGHS. Women's Genome Health Study. The WGHS is supported by the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (HL043851 and HL080467) and the National Cancer Institute (CA047988 and UM1CA182913), with collaborative scientific support and funding for genotyping provided by Amgen. YFS. Young Finns Study. The YFS has been financially supported by the Academy of Finland: grants 134309 (Eye), 126925, 121584, 124282, 129378 (Salve), 117787 (Gendi), and 41071 (Skidi), the Social Insurance Institution of Finland, Kuopio, Tampere and Turku University Hospital Medical Funds (grant 9M048 and 9N035 for TeLeht), Juho Vainio Foundation, Paavo Nurmi Foundation, Finnish Foundation of Cardiovascular Research and Finnish Cultural Foundation, Tampere Tuberculosis Foundation and Emil Aaltonen Foundation (T.L). The technical assistance in the statistical analyses by Ville Aalto and Irina Lisinen is acknowledged. ; Peer Reviewed

POLITENESS STRATEGIES IN REQUEST AND COMMAND USED BY AUNG SAN SUU KYI TO RULE BURMESE IN MOVIE "THE LADY" Erna Yulianti English Literature, Faculty of Language and Art, State University of Surabaya, nana_jouly@yahoo.com Advisor: Dian Rivia Himmawati, SS., M.Hum dianrivia@gmail.com Abstrak The major aims of this study are to analyze the positive and negative politeness strategies, to analyze the characteristics of two types of politeness strategies concerned to request and command utterances, and to know how strategies that subject used influence the responses of addressee. The subject of this study is Aung San Suu Kyi, the main character of film "The Lady". The data were taken from subject's utterances classified by Brown and Levinson's theory of positive and negative politeness strategy, theory of request and command by Blum-Kulka, and theory of power language by Fairclough. The method of this study is qualitative approach. Pragmatics and critical discourse analysis are used to interpret the data analyzing. This study relates to the power language. The power means how the strategies influence the responses in the communication. As results, it's found that there are three main results. First, San Suu Kyi used both positive and negative politeness with various sub-types strategies in the utterances. Second, there are politeness characteristics built by San Suu Kyi through request and command utterances. The characteristics were presented by sub-categories of request sequences and three level of command. And the last, the strategies that subject used have great impact to the responses were given by addressee. Within analyzed the responses, this study used three constrains of power language (subject, relation, content). They were found that subject of the study has influential and instrumental power which influence addressees to give positive responses. This study also creates some findings as final result of data analyzing. The findings concerned on differential forms of three main results analyzed. Key words: politeness strategy, positive politeness, negative politeness, request, command, power language INTRODUCTION Today women contributed to the political sector. Now, the achievement of the women to share ideas and thoughts had strong influences to the society. Women had opportunity to be leader or head as same as man. Many of them were successful to bring the big change, as example were the iron lady, Margaret Tacher – prime minister of Great Britain, Aquino – president of Philipines, and Aung Saa Suu kyi (Suu) - politician who successful brought Burmese changed political guidance from military government to the democracy. It means that women had political power to influence the subordinates or society. Women successfulness was not separate from the strategy used. How to maintain and control society, how to ensure society about the ideas, and how to make society believed in what contributed were some strategies used by politician, especially woman politician. Here, the role of language was significant to gain the strategies. Therefore woman tend to use different type of language than that man. Based on Holmes (2001) one of the types of strategies was politeness, because women were more polite than man in building communication with hearer. From that issue, politeness became good character of using language point of view. Because of the function of politeness applied which not only a duty but also a favor, it would be interesting to lift politeness as topic analyzed. Politeness was one of strategies usually used to cover some goals, it also became attribution in communication. Compare to the other language strategies, politeness had higher position in its function to achieve good responses than another. It is believed that politeness is a principle of language identified character. Someone would define as good character, moreover woman, if she used polite language. By contrast, someone who lack of polite words in speech, it means (s)he has bad character. Both people and its character can be measured by the language used, because in the societies many people argued that hearer more paid attention to the speaker who had good personal character with polite way to speech. The language use has many utterances to gain wants, like apologize, warning, persuasion, invitation, thank, command, and request. They were probably used in language applied. A research conducted by Wagner used apologized related to politeness too. It could identify known or stranger participant in social relationship. It would be different from request utterances which could identify how strong speaker wanted to something. And command could identify how important speaker's position to obligate something. Because of these order more appropriate to the notion of power language which they would tend to state the ideas or thoughts in request and command statements. Asking for agreement of some programs or plans was tendency of "request" order used. Leading for conducting movement like warning or instruction of public campaign was tendency of "command" order used. The use command and request in politeness applied would influence to the hearer responses, it means good responses referred to the good speaker. Because of that, Aung San Suu Kyi put as strong politician figure which had good speaker. There were other figures that may have same position as Suu, such as Margaret Techer who successes in dominating house of representative for several periods or Aquino who became the first woman president in Philippine, but, the achievements of Suu more influential than another. Suu was politician of pro democracy in Myanmar where societies appreciate to the figure who brings democracy into the country. As politician who had great opportunities to unite Burmese under democracy consciousness, the request and command stated were intentioned by Burmese. The struggles also considered as defensive movements to the government created democracy in that country. The efforts to unite Burmese conducted in the prison and separated from family. This position made Suu appreciated by people as figure of politician who led Burmese to the democracy who has great opportunities to unite Burmese under democracy consciousness, even the speeches and talks were very influential. Every utterances used, stated Suu in high position, So that, it would be interesting to take Suu as subject of the research. Based on issues that the women more polite than men, the politeness used in request and command could identify the power, and the importance position of Suu as politician led this study to find (1) what are types of politeness strategies used by Aung San Suu Kyi, (2) what are types of request and command used by Aung San Suu Kyi, and (3) how does Aung San Suu Kyi influence addressees in order to get good responses. Those reasons decided that politeness strategies used by Aung San Suu Kyi in request and command to rule Burmese as title of this study. This study related to the other studies. Since it analyzed utterances, pragmatic and critical discourse analysis (CDA) were theory used. According to Schiffrin (1994:41), discourse can be approached to the pragmatic study. To prove her argument she describe three definitions of discourse, they are "the language above the sentence", "language use" and "utterances". Discourse can research how speakers produce utterances, what strategy that speakers used, what the goals are, and how speakers influence hearer to get good responses. Fairclough (2012:452) states that CDA investigates the social phenomena which are complex. In terms of the concept of social practice, CDA criticizes social practices such as; social subjects, social relations, instruments, objects, strategies in using language, values, etc. He emphasizes that studying discourse in society means giving focus on power, dominance and the way these reproduced by social member through talks. Those three modes often appear in social communication practices. These linguists had similar arguments which utterances spoken in society can be analyzed the meaning through discourse and pragmatics. The other study was politeness strategy in positive and negative which both of them had their own sub-strategies. Based on Brown & Levinson (1987) positive politeness was positive self-image of addressee. Doing FTA by using this strategy means that speaker (S) considers that (s)he wants hearer (H)'s wants. E.g by threatening H as a member of his/her group, a friend, or a person whose desire and personality traits are known and liked. In positive politeness, the area of redress is extended to the appreciation of H's desires or the expression of similarity between S's and H's desires. Negative politeness had at least ten sub-strategies. Here, this study provides seven sub strategies, they are: be conventional indirect, go on record (incurring debt/no indebting) H, apologize, don't coerce H, impersonalize S and H, give deference, and be pessimistic. Yule (1997) assumed that negative politeness is oriented to satisfy H's negative face, basic want of H is to be free and unimpeded. It meant that the speaker recognized and respected the addressees's freedom of action and would not (or would minimally) impede it. be optimistic, include both S and H in activity, give gifts to H, avoid disagreement, offer promise, give reason, use in-group identity maker, asserts/presuppose S's knowledge of concern for H's wants, seek agreement and exaggerate. Since the strategies used by subject [Suu] focused on request and command that theory is needed to identify the types. Based on the Blum-kulka (1987), request was part of speech act performed when a speaker wants a person (the hearer) to do something. Some types of categories provided in request utterances were: query preparatory, strong hints, mild hints, obligation statement, hedge performative, and suggestory formulae. In command utterance, Robinson (1972) argued that it referred to activities involved in the regulation when speaker produced command to fulfill by hearer. Blum-kulka gave guidance of three level of commands to identify how powerful them used for to be fulfilled by hearers. Most direct: command which directly pointed out the topic, usually imperative Conventional indirect: command which contained command form, but it is added by supporting sentence in order to decrease the directness Inconventional indirect: command which did not command form, but the essential meaning was command. To analyze the hearers' responses this study related politeness strategies to the power. Fairclough (1989) argued that power relationship has big scope which power can appears from subject, society, status, relationship etc. he gave power indentifying through three constrains that useful to identify whether speakers have power language or not. There are three types of such constrains on: Contents on what is said or done Relations. Social relations people enter into in discourse Subject or the subject positions people can occupy. RESEARCH METHOD This study was conducted by using qualitative approach, as Litosseliti (2010) said that the study of text or talk (spoken discourse) used to analyze how the politeness strategy through utterances which was spoken by main character employing the approach of politeness theory that concern with positive and negative politeness and their influence related to the power language. This included developing a description of an individual or setting, analyzed data for themes or categories, and finally making an interpretation or drawing conclusions about its meaning personally and theoretic. The data source of this study was taken from a film titled The Lady which released on 2011. The film based on true story of pro-democracy politician in Myanmar. Command and request utterances were chosen as data taken from the main - character Auu Saan Suu Kyi and added by conversational sequences. The instrument of the data was covering material by analytical thoughts, therefore media was very important in conducting this study, for instance; visual media recorder. Based on Erickson (in Litosseliti: 2010) the data were collected by using systematic attention to meaning. First step was collecting and logging data, it means logging processes were viewing film and note analytical thoughts. Second part was viewing data as research team, it means organizing them into generated criteria. Third part was sampling data, it more focus on what stands out. And the last was transcribing data by using a range of descriptive dimensions. Data selecting were utterances selection of Suu which concerned to the request and command utterances. The data selected in to sub-types of (positive and negative politeness) also selected in to sub-categories of request and command. For example: no. acts data politeness characteristics (+) (-) request command 1. 15 "Give it to me!" Give gifts to H Most direct DATA ANALYSIS 1. The Types of Positive and Negative Politeness Used by Aung Saan Suu Kyi This part analyzed about types of positive and negative politeness strategies used by Aung Saan Suu Kyi. There were many types which have their own characteristics. It tend to analyze which utterances that belong to sub types of positive politeness and which utterances that belong to sub of types negative politeness. 1.1 Positive politeness Conventional indirect that used by Suu in her utterances are an unambiguous sentences or phrases which contextually have different meaning from literal meaning. In many contexts there are many sentences which are conventionally understood differently from its literal meaning, like stated on the data below. Data 35: (A)Ne-win's delegation: "How was Mr. Aris? I'm sorry to hear that" (B)Suu: "((ne-win's delegation comes to drive suu away)) it is not your question, Norway government borrowing us an air ways ambulance, Dalai Lama send one of the best doctor to follow Michel Suu said; "it is not your question," this utterance encodes the clash of desire, Suu's desire of going on record states as the desire of going off record. In this condition means suu knows everything that would be said by delegation. As information, before suu utter that, the delegation ask about the condition of Suu's husband who suffered from cancer, but suu does not answer the question by saying good or not too good for example, There are extended desire that suu want to achieve, but she gives long explanation "Norway government borrowing us an air ways ambulance, Dalai Lama send one of the best doctor to follow Michel". Here, this information used to make hint critics to the government about why see can not meet her husband while the facilities provided. In these cases the utterances have different meaning from literal meaning. b. Go on record as (incurring debt/no indebting) H, This strategy suggests speaker [S] may redress his FTA by explicit conveying his indebtedness to hearer [H] or disclaiming any indebtedness of H. this extracts below are type of go on record without indebting H. Data 2: (A)Suu: "Be a good boy, help your father when I'm not here" (B)Children: "Yeah…" The extract contained directive form since the speaker used them in direct way. Directives are concerned with getting people to do things. The speaker which expresses directive force varies in strength. Direct typically signed by using of verb at the beginning of the sentences like be, help, don't, tell, go, stay here. Identifying directive should pay attention to the intonation and tone of voice used by the speaker. There were no claiming indebting hearer, because hearer seems know that what S wants are like a duty that they should do. c. Apologize, This strategy to show that S did not mean to impinge H apologizing. By apologizing for doing FTA, S indicates her reluctance to impose on H's negative face. Brown and Levinson suggested to communicate regret or reluctance to do an FTA. The first way is S frankly admits that she is impinging H's negative face. This strategy applies in this extracts below. Data 4: (A)Leo: "Don't you mind to call me every time you need (B)Suu: " Yes I will, thank you for everything uncle Leo The word thanks here does not mean thanks as usual, S implicitly says "sorry" under function of notion thanks. This utterance more sounds sorry than thanks, because the condition and situation tend support speaker to say "I'm sorry to bother you with everything" than "thank you for everything". H has been done everything to help S fulfill her desire in impossible and critics situation, but H can do it well, so that S showing respect to H's conducts because of the bothering. Then, S has to be sorry for it. In spite of saying thanks, it is contains of sorry implicitly. S does it strategy to not impinge H. d. Don't coerce H [hearer], another way to satisfy H's negative face is by avoiding coercing hearer especially when the FTA involves predicating act of H such as requesting help or offering something which needs H's acceptable. This condition can be created by explicity giving H the opinion not to do the expected act Data 5: (A)Suu: "What are you doing?" ((stop the activist)) (B)The activist: "we have to go" The data above contain strategy. Speaker avoids coercing H because of the utterances involves of predicate "do". In this condition, S asks for request to H "don't" do something. e. Impersonalize S and H, Pluralizing 'I' and 'you' is another technique to save H's negative face. According to the Brown and Levinson (1987:189) it seems to be very general in many languages that the use 'you' (pl) pronoun to refer to a single person is understood to show deference (P) or distance (D). Hence 'we' and 'you' can serve for 'I' and 'you' (sing) respectively to give respect to single referent 'we' is possibly the conventionalized polite form more appropriate to formal situations [campaign] and negative politeness. because it usually use in formal speech like campaign. S bring the name of party under the name of togetherness Data 12: Speech 1[Suu] Buddhist, Burmese, today, we meet here in order to unite 1our desire for freedom, we want the world look us for it. The world should hear our voice to be democratic state with multiparty. For those aim, we [NLD] want you to know…. f. Give deference, This strategy suggest that S [Suu] considers H [husband] being in higher social status than her. There are two ways in the realization of this strategy; one in which S humbles and lowers himself and the other in which S raises H's position or treats H as superior like in the extracts below. people use thanks for showing the great affection to bother about something. Data 26: (A)Suu: "Thanks for everything, I can't do anything without you, I will be right here Mikey, don't worry, prior the boys." (B)Husband: "sure I will, you have long trip, be sure to eat well, keep your health" The negative politeness shows in (data 26), those utterances appear when she talks to her husband. Before the utterances are spoken, there are a lot of things have done by her husband for helping her, so the words thanks for everything convey a lot of meaning. First, beside it applies thank for all of things, it also apply an apology. Suu feels that everything that she burdens to her husband is a load. In that case she tries to apologize by using thanks, not in sorry, because thanks listened respect, being honor to the husband. g. Be pessimistic, This strategy suggests that S may explicitly express a doubt that H is not likely to do his expected act. It means that S should be pessimistic about H's response. Data 34: (A)Suu: " As you, should I be there?" (B)Husband: "no, no Suu, you shouldn't, don't think about it" Strategy used by Suu in the data above contains modality form. In As you, should I be there? S making question with pessimist desire, she arranges it to hide the pessimistic with saving way by using modality. Modality is irrealis, counterfactual forms would, could, might etc are more polite than ability or future-oriented variant can and will. 1.2 Negative politeness a. Be optimistic, Strategy that assumes H wants what S wants for himself (or for both of them) and H will help S to obtain it. On contrary of strategy offers promise, This strategy suggests S being presumptuous or optimistic allows S to put pressure on H to cooperate with him. verb placed in the beginning of utterances "stay" possible indicates optimistic reason, it is caused by communication situation and hearer. Data 21: (A)Party member: ((take the gun on)) (B)Suu: "No, don't think about it, there's no bullet, we still continue. Stay calm, stay calm, stay here." ((walk forward face soldiers with guns pointed her)) The situation at that time is S and her party member held a meeting for campaign, but, the meeting is sabotaged by military government. They bring ready gun and weapon to stop the meeting. S as leader of the meeting, is optimist that they are not too danger to fight. So that S confidently says to the H [one of her party member] like in "No, don't think about it, there's no bullet, we still continue. Stay calm, stay here." b. Include both S and H in activity, Including both S and H in the activity is another way to perform cooperative strategy. An inclusive 'we' form which S really means 'you and me' is commonly used to make H involve in S action thereby redress FTA, some common examples are We can start it (data 10). This strategy is often use to soften requests where S pretend the requested thing too, and offers where S pretends as if S were as eager as H to have the action. At data 10, S may utters it Data 10: (A)Guests: "we come to ask you to discuss many things that occur recently Daw Suu" (B)Suu: "We can start it? for inviting the guests who come to talking about democratic crisis. Since S interested in the meeting and the topic talked, S gratefully accepts the guests, then S expresses inviting H [guests] by using direct request which in fact means "well, why don't we start it now?". The inclusive "we" used to show that between S and H are cooperate in same purpose. c. Give gifts to H, This strategy is to satisfy H's face S may grant H what H wants e.g; by giving gift H. Not only tangible gift, which indicates that S knows H's wants them to be fulfiled, but also human relations wants like the wants to be liked, admired, cared about, understood, listened to and so on.(Brown & Levinson, 1987:129) Data 8: (A)Maid: ((take the bags and case)) (B)Suu: "Give it[bag] to me ((smile)) In this extract above, S seems like command H directly. But it is uttered softly, because S act her speech while smile to H. Here, S makes communication with H [maid], as usual the maid always serves the house well, H brings S's bag, but S ignore H's act. The ignorance states in positive way, then for intended action S asks H as in Give it[bag] to me. This sentence represents S want that she gives gifts to H, the gift may not a good but something like sympathy or understanding that H has been done a lot of things well, so that S does not want to burden H more. d.Avoid disagreement, In order to satisfy h's positive face, S should avoid disagreement with H. One strategy to achieve such circumtance is by pretending that S agrees with H's statement. It called 'token agreement'. For example Data 11: (A)Guest: "Madam, it's urgent, we believe that you are the best figure to bring this country in democracy" (B)Suu: "Beside my less experience, I had leaved this place for long time, so I think, I need you to…" In the case of (data 11), S disagree with H wants. It shows by using "Beside my less experience, I had leaved this place for long time" Before this statement appears, H wants S to lead and join against military government, but S disagree. S feels do not confidence with those agreement. As consequence S intends her utterance by saying "so I think, I need you to…. S avoids H's agreement, but at the end S seems like agree, however in condition where H has to do something for S. it is like accepting through ignorance words, or in other words "yes, but…". e. Offer promise, Stressing that whatever H wants and will help to obtain. S may state offers and promise to create such condition with a purpose of showing S's good intentions in redressing H's positive face wants even if they are false. Data 27: (A)Suu: ((Walk to the gate)) (B)Soldier: "hei, no you can't, stop! (A')Suu: "What? I just want to talk with them, never try to bother me, I will talk with them" ((meet her supporter outside the gate)) "offer promise" can be applied as in data 27. S says "I will talk with them" this utterance seems like intimidates H. S creates condition with a purpose to against H. S stresses it utterance with give exact meaning of "I will talk with them and everything will be alright, you save and I save, so please don't stop me", S may want H fulfill her wants by showing positive sentence to H even if they are false. f. Give reason, Giving reason is a way of implying' I can help you' or 'you can help me, and assuming cooperation, a way of showing what help is needed. This fact directs to pressure to go off record to investigate and see H whether or not he is cooperative. Data 20: (A)General Nyunt: "you are a good wife also a good girl, after your mother passed away, surely you want to go home soon to meet your kids and husband right (B)Suu: "I think you haven't to do it [drive away] General Nyunt. Now, my big mission in Burma is joining in the national election. As soon we held the election, as possible I will beside them [family]. You may suggest Ne-Win in hurry." This strategy implies that if S has good reasons why H couldn't cooperate. This strategy can also be used to criticize H's past action why he did or didn't something without any good reason. In the other words S tries to criticize why H do not held election soon. H should do it if they want S leave soon. Here, S wants to give indirect suggest to H through positive and cooperative way. g. Use in-group identity maker, This strategy suggests that claiming implicity the common ground with H, S can use in-group membership identity maker. The address form includes generic names and terms like mac, mate, buddy, pal, honey, dear, cutie and guys. S claims common ground with H by showing that both of them in the same group of level and sharing particular desiring such as values and goals. This strategy shows as in extracts below. Data 23: (A)Suu: "My darling, I hear violence that conducted by Ne-Win military soldier happen every day. They want to found the authority with that way. So you can't back here in this time, so darling please, do your best, and don't worry about me." (B)Husband: ((seeing Suu, silence but thoughtful)) This strategy uses not only to make solidarity, but also emphasize make the communication flow in informal style since it is minimize status differences. h.Assert/presuppose S's knowledge of concern for H's wants, This strategy is declaring or employing knowledge of H's wants and willingness. In the data 24, utterance "there are many soldiers around our house" shows presuppose S's knowledge about the situation they faced. Then, S asserts of concern for H's wants is associated in maybe there's nothing happen. However, if I'm caught, I had arranged plan to send you back to Oxford. S puts a pressure on H to cooperate with her. Cooperate here meant if something happen because of S's presupposition, S wants H do something that had been arranged by H. All of utterances stated by S are significant to H's wants, the want of to be safe. Data 24: (A)Suu: "Good morning, get up boys, how was your sleep? Listen, today, this morning, there are many soldiers around our house. I don't want you be afraid, maybe there's nothing happen. However, if I'm caught, I had arranged plan to send you back to Oxford. I want you to know, everything will happen, we still love you. Ok?" (B)Children: "Yes mom" i. Seek agreement, This strategy can be achieved by S in raising safe topics. By doing 'safe topic' S is allowed to stress his agreement with H and satisfy H's want to be right or to be corroborated in his opinion. Small talk about weather, sickness, politic, and current local issues. seek agreement are some example of 'safe topic'. Data 29: (A)Suu: "Is it may a new face? ((talk to a soldier)), what's your name? ((pause)) do you speak English? So what's your name?" (B)Soldier: ((Smile)) To make good impression S uses small talk as initial of the conversation. This strategy also has big role of successful S's purpose and avoid the ignorance. j. Exaggerate, This strategy quite similar to the attend to H's interest, wants, needs, goods strategy however, S's attention or sympathy to H is indicated by exaggerating intonation, stress, and other aspect prosodic such as marvelous, the best, how beautiful etc. Data 32 (A)Suu:"You might be the best husband ever after.((hug Mikey)) (B)Husband: I will ((smile)) S's strategy also indicates a hope, S has big hope to H to do something. S wants H to be the best husband ever after for S. Its desire is spoken by giving H interest or attention in form of exaggerates. 2. The Types of Request and Command Used by Aung Saan Suu Kyi 2.1 Request, It is concern in the types of request utterances built by speaker in her utterances which may belong to positive or negative politeness. a. (-) Query preparatory, That is request utterances which contain reference to preparatory conditions such as ability and willingness, as conventionalized in any specific language. As in data 1 below, S requests for telling story. Data 1: (A)Suu: "Dad, tell me a story please" (B)Suu's Father: "I will tell you about Burma" The sequence of the sentence contains of address term "Dad" and query preparatory "tell me a story please". Here, S places the word "please" in the end of the request, means that she wants to ask H in polite way, however she begins her request by first form of verb "tell", S forms her request by showing her willingness that H can fulfill her request. (+) Query preparatory there was distinguish feature of utterances belong to the positive tend to spoken by participant who want to get closer relationship, and both speakers want the same thing. This condition also place indicate that the utterances is speaker and hearer oriented. b. (-) Strong hints, This category forms request utterances which contain partial reference to object or element needed for the implementation of the act. References used significant to hints the requests because S do not want to impose H's face S wants H learn the reference by themselves to know what S wants then understanding it to take extended acts to fulfill S's requests. However, actually the extended acts are not important, the important one is the function of the reference itself. S also uses will and conditional if associate to the hint request which is imply to the negative politeness. c. (-) Obligation statements, That is request utterances which the obligation of the hearer to carry out the act stated explicitly. It is proven by using of first form of verb like "be" and "help" S really wants H to do her request, this characteristic belongs to negative politeness strategy because of the using of positive statement which means S obligate H to do something in the way of giving good impression to H. d. (-) Mild hints, That is request utterances which does not contain reference to the request form properly, but it is interpreted as request by context. The request formed immediately go on head act, there is neither supportive move as reference nor address term. The request provided on interrogative form e.g:"What are you doing?" which it does not mean to be answered. That is a request S formed to H in order to follow S's want. At glance, there is not like a proper request, but based on the language function, it is structurally incorrect then, functionally proper. e. (-) Suggestory formulae, That is request utterances which refer to suggestion to the hearer to do act. As provided in data 34A, S tries to give suggestion to H. In the fact, that suggestion is a request form. The request made seems like contains a worry. S gives suggestion whether she's coming is needed by H. her worry appears because she cannot insure her request will be fulfilled or not by H. So that, in the name of does not want to impinge H, S make her request in the suggestion form. This suggestion belongs to the characteristic of negative politeness strategy, the evidence is the using of modality "should" it associates to the utterances which suggest or need an agreement from H to fulfill the request. (+) Suggestory formulae in positive was strategy formed by using future desire of "will". Besides that, the role of "we" as in "let we take her to the bed, then we will see what's going on and in the ""We can start it?" As sign that between S and H include in the same activity strengthen its position belongs to positive politeness strategy. This request S's characteristics is giving suggestion to H to do the thing together. f. (-) Hedge performative, That is request utterances in which the illocutionary force is named and accompanied by hedging expressions. There are address term such as "Buddhist, Burmese". Then, followed by supportive move that spoken in long sentence as references of S to ensure H, it was an effort to make sure that implicit requests which spoken successfully listened. (+) Hedge performative, Elements by means of which the speaker avoids specification in making a commitment to the illocutionary point of the utterance, in naming the required action, in describing the manner in which it is to be performed, or in referring to any other contextual aspect involved in its performance. This request category has characteristic which S tries to give "softening" effect to her request. 2.2 Command, Command in language use, is used to ask something with obligate answer. S has strong desire which has to do by H either negative or positive politeness has command utterances. a. (-) Most direct, That is explicit level, realized by command syntactically marked as such, such as imperatives, or by other verbal means that name the act as command initial first form of verb. the command utterances form by S is obeyed by H, because H treats in duty. (+) Most direct This level of command used in positive by S with provides some additional sign which indicate to the positive. It may same as negative that contains first form of verb like in the "Give it[bag] to me" S commands H to do something that it decrease H's duty or as simple words, S want to help H under the term of command. b. (-) Conventional Indirect This command's level procedures that realize the act by reference to contextual preconditions necessary for its performance, as conventionalized in a given language (these strategies are commonly referred to in speech act literature. This command utterances is not as strong as most direct one, because speaker formed her command with negation and modality S wants to show power through command, but she does not want to impinge the hearer. That's why this command belongs to negative politeness strategy. (+) Conventional indirect, command that contain invitation by calling H with first name (FN), it also can contain good impression to get H closer obviously get good responds of the command formed. the impression brought H to fulfill what S wants. However, there a "must" that contain a duty, H accepts it happily because there are prize for H. c. (+) Non-conventional indirect level, i.e. the open-ended group of indirect command (hints) that realize the command by either partial reference to object or element needed for the implementation of the act. This level contained softening command or hidden command. S forms command by using "will" as characteristic of soften command. E.g: "I will campaign…" and "never try to bother me, I will talk with them" are example implicit command used by S. To show the positive strategy, S forms the command characterized as making agreement, that is cooperation among participants to fulfill the wants. 3.How does Aung San Suu Kyi influence the addressees in order to get good responses? This part analyzed findings in previous problems which influence the hearers' responses. 3.1 Different function of "please", In communication people used term please for a willingness statement. It is so as in Suu's statement in the film, she used please for hoping something, and emphasizing the willingness. Please can be stated in front of statement or in the end. In this part subject produced word please differently. Based on the theory of request (Blum-Kulka:1987) "please" used to express hoping for something with full of willingness. The subject of the film used the function of please to utter strong request. In other situation please only for "sweetener", because there was no strong willingness occurred. Suu gave new function of please in this movie. It was different from the other study conducted request as theory which it put please only as negative politeness marker without mentioned the distinctive function. This finding showed that request utterances with please indicating social relationship where speaker put herself in higher or lower position than hearer. It is supported by theory of power relation by (Fairchlough:1989) that type of this please request tend to use by younger to elder. And Suu applied it both while talking with elder and younger. In this case Suu showed that please was not stuck in the using. In this movie subject shows that type of please used in different purpose. 3.2 Universality of "thanks", The using of thank commonly used for saying thank you for people that help or doing something for us. Involving thank words in to utterances was one of negative politeness strategy. It based on (Yule: 65), thanks could work sometimes be heard in extended talk often with hesitations. In this study, subject represented thank in apologize and gave deference. They reflected the differences of using thank or I prefer to call it universality of thank. Subject defense the theory, the possible reason was subject to show the wants differently or there were factors that force speaker (S) to use it in other sentences besides thank sentences. Universality of using thank reflected apologizing utterances also contrast to the previous study conducted by Wagner which apologizing occurred did not showing thank word. The other function of thank is used for showing deference. Deference communication appeared when S felt H need to be honor. In the case of Suu's utterances, the honorific by using thank used was as same as Brown & Levinson theory which it had function for talking to the far relationship, and if it said to the people close relation, it was not an honor, but it would be a purposeful way. Obviously, thank is universal in its using. Thank not only used for saying thank you, but also, subject in this film shows us that thank can be used to show apologize and showing deference. 3.3 Different function of inclusive "we", Based on Brown & Levinson (1987) theory we used in positive refer to main purposes of making solidarity, need to be accepted, even liked by others and to be treated as member of same group. It is same with purpose in data of inclusive we uttered by Suu. Positive-we which "we" tends to put speaker (S) and hearer (H) include in same activity. Positive-we used to built solidarity in communication. Both S and H are involved in the same topic spoken. Positive-we ask H to join in the speaker's wants or S joins to the H's wants. Here, "we" used as signal of good cooperation among of participants. In this case, positive-we have same purpose like the previous study conducted by Ayuningtyas which concern to the associate responses of children. However the hearer was different, but both this study and that previous research had same purpose. That way appropriate used to show togetherness among speaker and hearer. Otherwise, we used in negative reflected differently. They are refer to the negative politeness which have main purposes oriented to show deference, need to be independent to have freedom of action, showing respect to others, or sometime negative utterances more formal than positive one. It is proven through S uses negative-we in her political campaign where it is a formal situation. Actually, the negative-we used by S is represent if "I". Speaker wants to avoid personalize term of "I", so that she uses negative-we, because, when S uses "I" in formal situation. it Negative -we also shows that S cares about H's wants without impinge on H's negative face. The discussion shows us that inclusive "we" can be used both in positive or negative, which positive-we has function of making good cooperative communication or solidarity in same group, while, negative-we has function of represent "I" to avoid personalize, and also to show using polite pronoun in formal activity. 3.4 Different function of query preparatory (QP), suggestory formulae (SF), and hedge performative (HP) in (-) & (+) Difference of QP in negative, or it called as "–QP", it is request category which has characteristic of preparatory conditions. The request sequences are only oriented to S (speaker) wants. These are different from QP in positive, or it called as +QP. The difference of SF in negative it called as –SF. Request category which contains suggestion. Characteristic formation used by S is using suggestion through word "should" used by subject is modality form, modality sometimes shows respect, because it is more polite than "shall or will". So that she makes it as –SF to avoid impinge H. It is different from SF in positive that it called +SF. Request sequence formed with using "will". The request type used by S included both S and H in the same activity to gain same wants. It was S (speaker) and H (hearer) oriented. Then, difference in request is HP, this category appears either in negative that it called as –HP or in positive that it called as +HP. The differences of –HP and +HP state in the request function based on condition. S made implicit request in order to reach successfully listened, S used the function of upgrader. The upgrader means S and H had separation, where S here in the "up" or high position that has possibility (power). Upgrader function suggests S to persuade H fulfilled what her wants. These are different from the using of request in +HP. This request category has characteristic which S tries to give "softening" effect to her request. +HP also has function of downgrader. This condition is opposite to the –HP that has upgrader function. Downgrader places herself in lower position and down tone utterances than H. It's happen because of S wants to make "softening" request. That "softening" formed through +HP and it significant to help request become downgrader. The three request categories showed that same category can be stated in positive or negative, as the subject in this movie shown. However they are same in the terms or names, but they have their own differences when they used in positive and negative politeness. 3.5 The formulation command utterances in most direct(MD), conventional indirect(CI), and non-conventional Indirect(NCI). a. First level is most direct or easier to call it MD. It is direct command or I prefer call it "strong command", because this command directly point the purpose out. Speaker (S) directly mentions what thing becoming point of command. Usually MD level using imperative to state command utterances. That was the using of first form of verb put in the beginning of the sentences. That's why it assumed that MD level contains command formulation: Verb 1 as starting words of command, as example: Data 8: (A)Maid: ((take the bags and case)) (B)Suu: "Give it [bag] to me ((smile)) b. Second level of command was conventional indirect, or it called as CI. It is the middle of direct command which means CI is not too direct and also not too indirect. This means S formed command with some purposes, for example S wants to get closer with H or doesn't want to impinge H. The other purposes may S want to showing appreciate to H. Usually these command level has additional information / supportive sentence which following command in order to make commands did not sound too strong. They can be stated before or after command uttered. Supportive sentence / additional information can be contained of; modality, address or first name (FN), and making good impression. CI examples below have command formulation: supportive sentence + command statement. Data 6: (A)Activist: ((bring a blooded girl leave her bed)) (B)Suu: "She can't leave this place, [supportive sentence] + you should stay here", [command] c. The last command level was non-conventional indirect or NCI. This level was similar with hints/hidden command. The formation of the utterances may not command form, but the element inside the sentences has implementation of command. Here, S want to command H implicitly, and the implicit feature forms through future desire "I will…". It was not only to hide the command, but also to shows S's plans, which those plans have same function as command because they bring H involve to the utterances. In the other words, S uses "I will…" to show H what her plan is, while at the same time, S also commands H to do "something". Subject in this study used NCI level with command formulation: hints command by using "I will…". The obvious features of how did language operate in social interaction were influential and instrumental relationship with power. Influential power found in the research closely related to the dominance words that subject used, this domination mostly appears in command utterances. The position as political leader has big potential to influence the responds of the hearer whom talks with. The ability of influencing people in communication cannot be separated from successful sequences both in request and command used which well formed. The strategies used associated to the instrumental. They were like the useful tools to dress utterances being interesting, or interested in hearer. The subject capability of matching many instruments as instrumental power to gain the goal influenced to the hearer was a kind of creating power language process, so that subject had powerful language in achieving successful responses. CONCLUSION AND SUGGESTION Conclusion This study can be concluded that, first politeness strategies used by subject Aung San Suu Kyi in the film "The Lady" are both positive politeness and negative politeness. Subject implements their sub-types, but not for all types. From fifteen sub-types of positive provided, subject used ten sub-types, and from ten sub-types of negative provided, subject used seven sub-types. Second, the characteristics of the subject that have been measured by request and command, politeness characteristics resulted are; in request, there are query preparatory, strong hints, mild hints, obligation statements, hedge performative and suggestory formulae. In command, there are most direct, conventional indirect, and non-conventional indirect. Third, the influences of subject's utterances are defined from the responses given to subject, and how far subject's strategies influence others are taken from analyzing them through content, subject, and relation. Suggestion It was suggested that the later research can conduct the same research in other aspect of discussion, for example by conducting the research with real situation as the object. It was hoped the next study would observe some politeness strategies with different backgrounds in order to know the characteristics of politeness strategies in different ways. REFERENCES Ayuningtyas, D. 2006. Politeness Strategy in Request in Film Harry Potter, and The Related The Associated Response in Children Character. English Department, State University of Surabaya. Blum-Kulka, S., and Olshtain, E. 1987. Requests and Apologies: A Cross-Cultural Study of Speech Act Realization Patterns (CCSARP)1. Hebrew University, Jerusalem Tel Aviv University. pdf. file, Journal of Applied Linguistics, Vol. 5, No. 3 (pp:196-212) Brown, P., and Levinson, S. 1987. Politeness Some Universals in Language Usage. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press Codreanu, A., and Debu, A. 2011. Politeness in requests: Some Research Findings Relevant for Intercultural Encounters. pdf. file, Journal of Defense Resources Management no.2 (2)/2012 Fairclough, Norman. 1989. Language and power. Edinburg: Longman Fairclough, Norman. 2012. Critical Discourse Analysis. International Advances in Engineering and Technology (IAET) ISSN: 2305-8285 Vol.7 July 2012 International Scientific Researchers (ISR) Holmes, Janet. 2001. An Introduction of Sociolinguistics. Edinburgh: Longman Leech, Geoffrey. 1983. The Principles of Pragmatics. New York: Longman Litosseliti, Lia. 2010. Research Method in Linguistics. London: Continuum International Publishing Group Magnis-Suseno, Franz. 2009. Etika Jawa: Sebuah Analisa Filsafat Tentang Kebijakan Hidup Jawa. Jakarta: Gramedia McGinty, Sarah Myers, Ph.D. 2001. POWER TALK Using Language to Build Authority and Influence.New York: Warner Books Pranowo. 2009. Berbahasa Secara Santun. Yogyakarta: Pustaka Belajar Robinson, W.P. 1972. Language and Social Behavior. Middlesex England: Penguin Book Ltd. Van Djik, T. 1995. Aims of Critical Discourse Analysis. Journal of JD Japanese Discourse vol:1 (pp;17-27) Watts, Richard J. 2003. Key Topics in Sociolinguistics: Politeness. Edinburg: Cambridge University Press Wagner, Lisa C. The Journal of Politeness, University of Lousville. Positive- And Negative Politeness Strategies: Apologizing In The Speech Community Of Cuernacava Mexico. pdf. file posted 02/18/2013 Werda, Sukardi. Politik Dan Rekayasa Bahasa (Journal of politic and language). Posted on 2nd November 2012 Wodak, R., and Meyer, M. 2008. Critical Discourse Analysis: History, Agenda, Theory, and Methodology. pdf. file Wodak-3795-Ch-01:Wodak-3795-Ch-01.QXP 9/29/2008 4:29 PM Page 1-33 Yule, George. 1997. Pragmatics. Oxford: Oxford University Press

Mike Schlosser, August 14, 2013; Mike Schlosser's grandfather outside his barbershop ca. 1930; Mike Schlosser's grandfather in his barbershop at the Healy Hotel ca. 1930 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Mike Shlosser. The interview was conducted on August 14, 2013, by Woodrow Johnson. Mike discusses his experiences with 25th Street. ; 38p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Mike Schlosser Interviewed by Woodrow Johnson 14 August 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Mike Schlosser Interviewed by Woodrow Johnson 14 August 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Schlosser, Mike, an oral history by Woodrow Johnson, 14 August 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Mike Schlosser August 14, 2013 Mike Schlosser's grandfather outside his barbershop ca. 1930 Mike Schlosser's grandfather in his barbershop at the Healy Hotel ca. 1930 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Mike Shlosser. The interview was conducted on August 14, 2013, by Woodrow Johnson. Mike discusses his experiences with 25th Street. WJ: My name is Woodrow Johnson and I'm here with Elliott McNaly who is running the audio-visual equipment. We are here with Mike Shlosser on August 14, 2013. Mike, this project is about historic 25th Street and the greater Ogden area, to which your grandfather had a pretty heavy role in, so let's talk about him. Can you tell us your grandfather's name? MS: George Earl Baldwin. WJ: Where is he from and how did he get to Ogden? MS: He was born in 1889 in Pahreah, Utah. It is now the most remote ghost town in the state of Utah. He was the first born of John Henry and Martha Magnum Baldwin. He was born in a one room, dirt floor, log cabin. His father was a rancher and his mother was a rancher's wife. He had one brother born three years later. After him a baby sister born five years later who died in infancy of diphtheria. He was raised in southern Utah in cattle ranching and mustanging. He was put on horseback at a very young age and put to work. To our knowledge, he had approximately a fifth grade education. We can't find too many records about that because it was basically done by the church sisters and brothers in the Cannonville area which is a smaller community about 21 miles southwest of Pahreah. His father homesteaded this area and it was considered open range for 1 raising cattle and mustanging of horses. He was put to work because another hand to work was another mouth to feed and another mouth to feed was someone to do more work. He became quite proficient at it. For the remainder of his life, he had an affinity for horses and had an ability with them that was quite remarkable to witness. He also became quite a storyteller in his later life. In his mid-twenties he married my grandmother, they referred to her as Maggie. My mother, Ila, was born in 1916. The next child was born a year and a half later, which would have been my Aunt Maxine. In my grandfather's early life, in his mid-twenties, because of what they did for a living they broke these mustang horses that they would catch in the canyons along the Arizona strip, he got hurt pretty badly and broke his back. It was just below the cervical collar, but just above his attachment for his spinal column to the base of his back just above the scapula. He always had a hump on his back from then on. They didn't have the technology to really work on people like they do now. I asked him about his hump when I was just a small boy and he told me that it was from a horse bucking him off and hurting him really bad. This is what brought him to the Ogden area because he could no longer continue to actively ranch. He brought my grandmother and mother and one daughter to Ogden with very little money. They had heard there was a need for barbers in Ogden because of the railroad station on 25th Street. He had heard that there was an opening at the Heely Hotel on the corner of 25th Street and Wall Avenue. It was quite an opulent building. I remember very vividly the marble floors and the marble 2 staircase that went upstairs to the mezzanine level. There were always people in and out. My grandfather went to barber school in Salt Lake and to my knowledge, it was 35 dollars to go to the school and it was a two week school. They taught them all the theory of barbering and shaving and those things. He did quite well in the school and when it came time to take their tests, they were going to do the shave in the morning session and the state legislature was in session at the time and the legislatures, being politicians, as we know them, took advantage of the free shave. They came down to the barber school for their free shave from the students. Pick of the draw, my grandfather wound up with the governor of the state of Utah as his shaving dummy more or less. He took the test and when the instructor came by to grade it, the governor spoke to the instructor and said, "This is the best shave I've ever had in my lifetime." He was awarded 100 percent on the shave just on the governor's say so. That afternoon they did their haircuts and he got another one of the fellows from the legislature. He had very curly hair and he had a hard time getting it cut the way the man liked it. When they graded him, they graded him at 79 points. Passing was 80. The instructor told him, "You're one point shy of graduating." The governor was sitting right across from them and he spoke up to the instructor and said, "He shaved me this morning and earned one hundred and one points." That's how he got graduated and got his license. This led to the fact that he applied for the job adjacent to the Heely Hotel and got the job. He later bought that particular business. It was a two chair 3 barbershop with a shoe shine stand. My uncle Priel would go down on Saturdays when it was really busy and help out over the years. He was also was a barber. During the 30's and early 40's it was quite a going tradition that people would go into the Heely Hotel and spend the night from the Union Railroad Station. In the morning, the men would get up and come downstairs and they would go next door through the alcove entryway into my grandfather's shop and he would shave them and if they needed a haircut he would do that also. It proved to be fairly lucrative for him. In those days a shave was 15 cents and a haircut was 25 cents. You have to shave a lot of faces and cut a lot of heads to make a living at it, so a volume business and you're only as good as your last haircut or shave, as they say in the trades. He was able to do it. He was able to make a living for his family and his family began to grow through more children. He had five daughters and one son. He was able to support their family. When the Second World War broke out, being quite an entrepreneur, because of the way he was raised where if you had an opportunity to make a dollar, you made a dollar. He found out through the grapevine that the troop trains were coming to Ogden and the word finally got out amongst the soldiers, which being in the military myself, information like this tends to have a life of their own. He made it available for the soldiers that would come up on their train layover. There were up to 22 trains a day that arrived in Ogden at the Union Station. There were as many as a thousand or more soldiers on these trains. They'd come up 25th Street when they had four hours to kill looking for something to do. 4 At this time, in the late 30's and early 40's, it was pretty wild down there. I actually know a fellow who was a beat cop for the Ogden Police Department named Vern Butcher. We used to get Vern to talk to us about these things and about the old stories. He said on any Friday or Saturday night, as a beat cop, you could walk out of any corner on 25th Street and look any direction and there was a felony going on. It was quite an exciting time for the Ogden area and 25th Street got quite the reputation because of this. Vern Butcher spent his entire working career for the Ogden Police Department down on 25th Street. He later went to work for the sheriff's department when he retired from the police department. That's how I met him, through the sheriff's department here in Ogden. My grandfather was an interesting man. He was quite a storyteller and very well known in the community on 25th Street. He was referred to as "Cowboy Baldwin" his entire life. I actually mentioned that to Vern Butcher and asked him if he knew Cowboy Baldwin and Vern looked at me funny for a moment and said, "That's your grandpa?" I said, "Yes, sir, he was." He said, "I know him very well. He was a very interesting man and cut my hair for years and would never take a dime from me for it even though I insisted. Your grandpa said that because I walked foot beat on 25th Street, if something happened to me, I deserve to be buried looking nice." Back to the original story, the soldiers would go up 25th Street looking for something to kill the time. There were numerous restaurants on 25th Street. My brother-in-law's father owned one of the restaurants on 25th Street, which I understand he is giving you a piece on this project. There were four theaters 5 downtown at that time. Now, the Egyptian is the only one left. The soldiers would go to the movies and go eat or go to a bar, or they might find some female companionship which was quite prevalent on the street. Anything you could look for, you could find. When it came time to get back on the train, because they didn't allow any alcohol on the trains, these are servicemen going to a war zone and rules didn't really apply too much to them. They learned through the grapevine that the thing to do was to go up to the liquor store on 25th and Grant Avenue and buy a half bottle of whatever particular alcohol they wanted to have and go across the street to Saco's Fruit Stand and buy a small watermelon or a large cantaloupe and take it down to the street into my grandfather's barbershop. He would charge them a quarter to go in his back room and hollow out that fruit and stick the bottle inside and get on the train. My grandmother told many stories of having to reinforce my grandfather's suit pants pockets because of the weight of all this change he brought home every day. My older sister remembers it very vividly of him coming home and putting his hand in his pocket throwing change out on the floor. As kids, we'd just dive into it. In those days, a quarter was a huge amount of money for a kid. My particular memories of the barbershop were as a young boy, we went to grandpa's barbershop every other week for a haircut. I really didn't particularly like having my hair cut, but I really did like going on 25th Street and watching the people because it was a very busy time. In the early 50's when the Korean war broke out, he did this again with the watermelon and the cantaloupe thing. From the Second World War, he was able to amass enough money that they were able 6 to put a very nice down payment on their home on 31st Street. When the Korean War broke out seven or eight years later, he was able to buy a brand new Buick Roadmaster car that they retired with. I remember as a little boy, sitting on my grandfather's lap driving that car. They used that until he passed away when I was 14. Quite an interesting life he led. He was quite a storyteller. My favorite parts of him were after they had retired, they would go up to Twin Lakes Idaho where they had a little sixteen foot Shasta travel trailer that they pulled with that old Buick. They had a 14 foot aluminum boat they would turn upside down and put it on top of the car. It was just not quite light enough that my grandfather could take it off alone. He always had to find someone to help him get it on or get it off the car. That's why one of us grandsons was sent with him to help out. My grandfather had to retire from barbering because he developed emphysema from the microscopic hair that he inhaled. The doctor accused him of being a heavy smoker, but he never smoked a day in his life. Although, he could roll a cigarette with one hand, I watched him do it. He did it for his father as a young boy. It was interesting to watch that happen with one hand. I remember that very vividly. My father asked him one time to show him how to do it and my dad couldn't do it. It was more or less a game to them. They would fish all summer long. Being of pioneer stock, my grandmother canned everything they had. You name it, if it could go in a bottle in a pressure cooker, she put it in there. She put fileted trout in a quart jar in that little 16 foot travel trailer. There was no bathroom in it and it had a heater in the floor that if it was on, you better not step on it 7 because it'd burn your foot. There was a little stove, a one basin sink with a water tank, and they had to go to town to get their drinking water. They pretty much roughed it up there. There weren't any approved camp grounds or anything, but they would go out fishing every morning and my grandmother would go with my grandfather and myself and other cousins and we would fish in the early morning hours, usually trolling. In the evening, my grandfather and I would go and grandma would stay back at camp, and that was when he told me cowboy stories which were very illuminating. He was quite good at describing the terrain and the time of the year and what he was doing and how it got to be out in that area. He told me the story of going out to check cattle one day at about 16 or 17 years of age, and as he was loping his horse across the prairie. His horse all of a sudden gathered himself and jumped. It caught him off guard and he nearly fell off. He reigned up the horse and turned him and brought him back to see what he was jumping over and there was an Indian lying there in the trail. It was an old man whose tribe had left him and moved on. This man was named Chief Wohose, he was very elderly and my grandfather gave him some water and tried to give him some food, but he refused the food. Through broken English and what little bit of Piute my grandfather knew, he ascertained that he wanted to be left alone as that was their custom to leave their elderly along the trail. Ashes to ashes dust to dust is how they looked at it. He had a lot of occasions dealing with Indians as a young boy. He was chased several times by Piute Indians down in the Bryce Canyon areas because that area was their sacred ground in the area at that time. The 8 white man was still quite a novelty to see and especially a man alone riding a horse out in that country. My grandmother was shot in the leg at 13 with an arrow by a Piute Indian who tried to catch her. She told me that her horse was too fast for him, he couldn't catch her pony. She outran him and got home with the arrows protruding out of her leg. Until the day she died she had an indentation on the side of her calf where the arrow struck her. I've asked her several times over the years about it and always got the same story that an Indian chased her as a young girl. It was a very interesting lifestyle. My grandfather, when he started his business, he really started it from scratch. He did have some business come in from the hotel next door and from the people down the street who found out there was a barber shop there and he became quite successful at it. As a young boy, I remember my grandfather had a fellow who had been a porter for the Union Pacific Railroad and in those days they referred to these black men as George Porter, because of the man who invented the Pullman car. They were the staff on the sleeper cars. They would make up the beds and clean in the mornings and assist people on and off. When the railroad did away with the sleeping cars, they were basically left high and dry wherever they were. He was originally from Mississippi and his name was Willie. I don't remember his last name and I wish I could find a record of him, but my grandfather gave him a job and he shined shoes. He had a high back wooden shoe shine stand and I believe it was a two-seater as I remember it, and it faced the window. I used to love to get up on there as a little boy and watch the people 9 going by as 25th Street was very busy in those days with foot traffic as was all of downtown Ogden. People dressed to go shopping in those days. On occasion, my grandfather would give me 25 cents, but he would make Willie go with me and we would go up 25th Street and I'd go to a movie, or buy something to eat, or find treasures in the little shops along the way. Willie always stayed with me, but he had to stay outside because of the racial barriers at the time. As soon as I came out of the store, he was right there with me. He was quite an older man and I do remember him very vividly in my mind. He was very black in color and his eyes were very bloodshot. He looked to me like he was almost bleeding from his eyes because they were extremely red. I don't know what really caused it, but I remember that he let me touch his hair. He was really the first black man I ever witnessed and I felt that his hair was very soft, but underneath it was very coarse because he used some type of a hair dressing on there. He was an interesting man. He always had some kind of hand lotion he was working with on his hands because his hands would get really dry shining the shoes. What else would you like to know? WJ: While we're touching on racism and segregation, I'd like to continue on that. Other than walking with Willie and him not being allowed in the stores that you were able to go in, did you ever see or experience any other form of racism or segregation on 25th Street? MS: I really didn't. Being young like that, I don't believe I really understood what was going on. I just knew that Willie would just tell me to go in and when I came out he'd be right there. I didn't find out until years later really what caused that, I just 10 thought he was being polite and was going to stay outside and for whatever reason he didn't want to go in there. It didn't really register with me. As a young kid, being the first black man I ever saw, he was my friend. He would have me hold his hand as we went up the street, especially if we crossed the street to the other side. I guess it was quite a sight to see a toe-headed kid being escorted up 25th Street by a black, older man, but I didn't think anything of it really. I didn't really have any more exposure until later on in school here in Ogden. We had a couple of black kids in our school and they were my friends. I really didn't experience any racism until I was probably in high school. Then I really noticed some of this stuff because they were just other kids. I played sports with them, I had gym class with them, I'd shop with them and have regular classes with them. We really didn't have what I considered to be a problem. I never heard anybody say anything bad to them because the one fellow I was in high school with was so well-liked that he was actually a member of the student council because he was a very good athlete and a nice guy. As a kid, I didn't witness any of that down on 25th street. I'm sure it happened. I do know that Willie lived in the old porters and waiters hotel and it was really the only place that black people were allowed to live in that particular part of town unless they were able to buy a home somewhere. I don't remember what happened to Willie. I'm sure he passed away or he might have moved somewhere, but I don't really know what happened to him. WJ: With your grandfather's barber shop being so close to the porters and waiters, do you recall very many African Americans coming in for haircuts or shaves. 11 MS: No, I don't recall that ever. I don't even know if they were allowed to go in the shops because of the segregation problems in the early fifties and late forties. I do remember that the people who would come into the shop to get a haircut, shave or have their shoes shined knew his name and would speak to him because he was right there in the beginning of the shop when they came through. They always seemed to be very polite to me. That was probably an overtone of the time I'm thinking, but he seemed to be able to make a living. My grandfather kept him there for a long time that I can remember. He was kind of like a fixture there at the barber shop. He would also do clean up things and sweep the floors and stuff like that to make himself useful and helpful. I don't remember any people on 25th Street that weren't white. I don't remember that at all. WJ: So, obviously it was very busy during WWII and we covered that. You would have seen more of the Korean War era, do you have any memories of being around the soldiers on 25th Street or in the barbershop. MS: I have a vague memory of it. I don't know if this memory is of an actual occurrence or if it was something that was told to me later on in life, but I do have a vague memory of some soldiers being in there. I don't really remember too much about it. WJ: Do you feel that with both WWII and Korea ending, Vietnam used a lot of different forms of transportation, do you feel that the railroad leaving hurt your grandfather's business. 12 MS: I think so. I remember as a kid, going down to the railroad station and going through the underground tunnels that took you out to the different tracks that were going through. I don't remember how many there were, but there were a number of tunnels that you would go downstairs under the tracks and come up on the other side. I remember that we used to hear the trains all the time and the whistles blowing and so forth. Later in the sixties, the train service started to change. Airplanes became more popular and people started to fly and it was faster and cheaper to fly. I did notice a decrease downtown of people coming through. It was a very busy hub railroad station. My grandfather retired in about 1963 or 1964 and I really didn't go back down to that area until my high school years. I do remember it and I remember my father saying things like he couldn't get certain parts anymore for some of the tractors because the trains weren't coming often enough to bring freight in and things of that nature. WJ: There are lots of rumors of tunnels and opium dens and those kinds of things on 25th Street. Do you have any experience with these tunnels at all? MS: There was a trap door in the back room of my grandfather's barbershop. In the photo you'll see the grape stakes of the back wall and it was behind there. You went through that doorway into the back room and it was a fairly small room, maybe 20 feet long and about 10 feet wide. In the one corner there was a trap door in the floor and I do remember going back there one time and that door was open. Prior to that, it was pretty heavy floor and I probably didn't pay too much attention, but I did see the trap door open and I went down the stairs and they were old, wooden, rickety 13 stairs and it smelled funny. It was kind of a musty smell. At the bottom of the staircase there was a big steel door that was set into the wood frame that was locked because I tried it and I couldn't get through it. Years later, I asked about it and that was one of the doorways that went into the tunnel system, which to my knowledge is under the gift house today. That's where the barber shop was, where the gift house is built now, which is owned and operated by Scott Vanleeuwen. There are some places still in downtown Ogden that have those. I do know that over on 24th Street, under the old paint company is where the pony express office was and underneath that are some of the adobe stalls they used for the horses and things of that nature. I have seen that, but as far as up and down 25th Street, I've never been in the tunnels, but there was always talk about them. WJ: Did your grandpa say anything to you about his tunnel entrance. MS: Yes, he told me to get up out of there and he was a little stern about it. That's really the only thing he ever said to me about it. I was so young then that probably if he did say anything about it. It was kind of a curiosity for me to see the open hatch and the staircase that went downstairs and it really did have a funny smell to it as I remember, but I don't have any real experience in the tunnels themselves. WJ: When we were here before, you did mention very briefly that your grandfather was friends with Harm Perry. Do you remember anything about Mr. Perry? 14 MS: I don't. I do remember that he went to my grandfather for his haircut for years. They were friends. I know that my grandfather contributed to his campaign a couple of times. They had a very close relationship, but of course, Mayor Perry knew everyone in town. To this day, people talk about how well he interacted with the businessmen downtown and how he brought the Pioneer Days Rodeo to town and installed all these traditions that we now celebrate here in the Ogden area. As far as meeting him, I don't remember meeting him. I may have, but I don't know. The gentleman in the photograph, we have no idea who he is in the barber chair. I initially thought it might be the mayor, but it's not. We compared a picture and it's not. WJ: Do you remember your grandfather sharing any Harm Perry stories? MS: I don't really unless it would be something that was related to me later in life. I don't remember him telling me too much about any of that. I do know they were friends, I know that much and they were business associates and that he cut his hair for many years. WJ: Behind every man is a better woman, as the saying goes, and you mentioned your grandmother, Maggie, before. I was wondering if you could tell us about her since she obviously is such a huge part of your grandfather's life and your life, so I'd like to hear a little bit about her as well. MS: Well, my grandmother, Maggie, was born in Cannonville, Utah. At fifteen years of age, she met my grandfather, and they began a relationship that lasted for well over 50 years. She was of pioneer stalk and her father was a polygamist who married two sisters a few years apart from each other. He had 17 children by 15 those two women, of which the first wife passed away after her seventh child and her mother would raise all of those children. Her half-sister, we refer to her as Aunt Maude, lived in South Ogden and I have very fond memories of Aunt Maude. She was the youngest of the children, my grandmother was the second youngest of the children from the second marriage. My grandfather was called to go on a mission for the LDS church. This would have been right around 1917. My mother was about 3 months old when he left, which left my grandmother and mother home to take care of themselves in a log cabin on what was left of the family ranch. My grandmother took a job cooking for the miners up the canyon which was 13 miles further up the canyon. She would have to get up at 4 in the morning and get the fire going in the stove because there was no heat in the building. She would get breakfast started and go out and feed the stock and get the horse hitched up to the buggy and when she finally had everything warmed up and ready to go and had my mother fed, she would heat rocks and she would wrap those rocks up in cloth and put them in with my mother to keep her warm, as she was a very tiny baby and she would drive the 13 miles up to the mine and cook breakfast and lunch for the miners. In the afternoon, she would start the dinner work and another woman would come up and feed the miners the evening meal. She would go home and take care of her garden, animals, and her way of life to keep herself alive and keep my mother alive. While my grandfather was on his mission, he was in Tennessee, and he told me the story that he and his companion were walking down side of the road 16 and it was extremely hot and humid. He was not used to this kind of weather being from the desert country of Utah. He said that he had a fan in the button hole in the lapel of his coat and in those days the missionaries weren't allowed to go around in just church sleeves, they had to have their jackets and a tie on all the time. He said that it got so hot and he sweat so badly that it melted his waxed collar to make the collar stand up. It actually melted to where it just kind of fell down around his neck. They were walking along a truck came by with some men in the back of the truck and they stopped alongside my grandfather and his companion and asked them what they were doing and explained to them that they were on a mission for the LDS church and the men in the truck milled around for a few minutes and asked them again, "What are you doing?" They said, "We're on a mission for the LDS church." "What is the LDS church?" "Well, we're Latter Day Saints, Mormons." They understood what that meant and the men wanted to know why they weren't in the military because the draft was being instigated for World War I at this time and they explained to them that they have a deferment because they were on a mission from their church. The men didn't buy that and they got out of the truck and surrounded my grandfather and his companion and beat them within an inch of their lives. The men threw them in the back of the truck and hauled them into Nashville and threw them in the county jail. It took three days before my grandfather was well enough to even walk because they beat him up so badly. He was finally allowed a phone call and the only phone that was in Cannonville, Utah was in the general 17 store. He called that number through the operator and they sent word up to the cabin that he had called and would be calling back later and my grandmother came into town and waited for the call. He explained to her what happened and she was quite concerned and he asked her to tell the bishop what was going on so they could get someone in the church authority to get him out of jail. She went to the local bishop and was told that he was too busy getting his winter crop in and he wouldn't have time to do it for at least a week. He wasn't sure of the timeline and this didn't sit well with my grandmother. So she drove the buck board out to where the stake president lived and spoke with him about it and pretty much got the same story. She went back home and stewed over this for not very long because she was a very determined person, and at this time weighed about 90 pounds and never stood more than five foot four in her life. My mother was four or five months old. My grandmother basically was not going to stand for being put off. She hitched up the buck board and put together enough provisions to last her a few days and bundled my mother up into every quilt and blanket that she had and headed out to Salt lake City from Cannonville. It took her three days camping on the prairie. This story was relayed to me by my grandmother on several occasions and other members of my family. This was in the dead of winter. I can't imagine being in an open buck board trying to drive this horse across the prairies of Utah on goat trails and cow trails. There were very little roadways to speak of all the way into Salt Lake. Once she got into Salt Lake, she said, "I really looked a fright. My hair was all out of place and I was very dirty, but I went straight to the 18 church's general authority's office building and went inside with your mother in my arms." There was a man secretary sitting up on this big desk on a small platform and when he recognized that she was standing there he asked if he could help her and she explained to him what was going on with my grandfather. The gentleman came back at her with, "Do you have an appointment?" She explained, "No, I don't have an appointment. I have just arrived here and I drove myself with my tiny baby all the way from Cannonville in the buck board." The gentleman said, "Well, you'll have to make an appointment and you're probably going to have about a two week wait." This infuriated my grandmother. She had just about all she was going to have about being put off and she went back out to the buck board and as her story went, she said to me, "I reached in above the blanket and the seat of the buck board and took out a 30/30 rifle and walked back inside the building right up to the man in front," and in her terminology, not mine, hers, she said, "I fanned a bullet into the chamber and slammed the butt of the gun down on his desk and said I will see the president of this son of a bitch, and I will see him today." She did. They took her back to Cannonville three days later in a stagecoach that the church paid for. One of the brothers from Salt Lake drove the buck board back. They put her up at the fort halfway for the night so she didn't have to sleep out on the prairie and they paid for that also. I think she made a fairly good impression on the fellows downtown in the church of general authorities and my grandfather was out of jail. Two weeks later they did it to him again. It was the same type of 19 scenario. My grandmother told the story as a continuation of this story. This time she said with a twinkle in her eye, "Mikey all I had to do was tell the bishop this time." As the saying goes, "Crap rolls downhill." I guess it came from Salt Lake down to the bishop that this was not good. There was some other legislation that took place somewhere and someone in authority got involved in this. As I understand it, reading some of the history, it was fairly common for the missionaries to be accosted like this because the church was not really well thought of in those days. Sometimes you just had to stand up for yourself. I know that my grandfather did not resist them because he told me himself. WJ: Earlier you mentioned Vern Butcher. Do you know of any of his stories of 25th Street? MS: He did tell us quite a bit of stories there in the break room and about a couple of shootings that he was involved in. He was actually shot as I remember. Don't quote me on that, but as I remember he did get shot in one of those. It was either shot or stabbed. Vern was a big man. He probably stood 6'5" and weighed well over 250 pounds. You didn't have a small man walking foot beat on 25th Street. He told me that just like in the big cities they carried a knight stick and he got quite proficient with twirling it on the leather thong that it had to hold on to it. He said that in those days there were no radios for the police. They had a red light on the city and county building and when a call would come in, they would turn that red light on and it would flash and they would know to go to a call box and call in to see what was going on. You always would walk out of whatever business you'd just been in and keep your eyes peeled up toward the city and 20 county building. This was in the days before there was a lot of trees downtown that had grown to full size. The city and county building only being 10 or 15 years old at the time. He talked about a number of ladies of the night that were prevalent on the street. He talked about the bars and the fights that went on and the soldiers that met trouble on the street in one form or another. There was quite a bit of that going on because they were taken advantage of by the flim flam artists as they called them in those days. I don't remember too much more about what Vern had to say, but it was very spell binding to listen to him. He was not a man to stretch the truth and if he said that he bopped somebody on the head with a knight stick, he thumped him. I do know that when you arrested someone when your afoot, you had to walk him to jail. If the friends were around, they didn't want you taking him to jail, they tried to take him away from you. You had to be very determined about what you were going to do. He also told us on one particular occasion that sometimes you couldn't do anything because you were all by yourself or you had your partner with you and there wasn't anything you could do to stop what was going on because you were out-numbered by the amount of people out there. It's the sign of the times of the 30's and early 40's. WJ: When we were here for the pre interview. You mentioned a man only known as "Airplane." Can you share some experiences there? MS: I don't remember his real name as we called him wino. He was an alcoholic and he lived on 25th Street. He would stay in the cheapest hotel or he would sleep in the back alleys or in cars. He had been a certified public accountant as a young 21 man and alcohol took over his life and he was quite a small man when I knew him. This was in the mid-70's that I knew him. The reason they called him "Airplane" is—because of his gin soaked brain I guess you could call it, he would mimic an airplane in flight. He'd put his arms out and make noises like an airplane and bank his arms when he went around a corner or made a turn. The particular night that I remember him the most for was I had just come out of the sheriff's office in my patrol car and was sitting at the red light at 25th and Grant Avenue and I was going to go straight through the intersection and out toward the county area when I saw some movement coming toward me, which would be going south on grant Avenue. I could see a person coming at me, but I couldn't tell what they were doing and it was about 11 at night and it was winter time and it was cold and I had my window rolled down about halfway and I could just faintly hear the noise he was making. He sounded like an airplane coming toward me and he banked really hard to make the turn to go west on 25th Street and he had his head down and when he made the turn he turned just a little bit too wide and went head first into a parking meter. I do remember hearing the parking meter make a twang sound that only a piece of steel can make when it's hit with something really hard and of course "Airplane" went to the ground into the gutter and I looked over and saw him and honestly, I laughed. It was pretty comical to see. I thought, "Well, he'll get up." I sat there for a moment more and he didn't move and I thought he hurt himself bad or possibly killed himself. He was moving pretty fast as he came around the corner. I pulled over there and he was semi-conscious and murmuring and blood was everywhere, he'd split his head open 22 from the back toward the front. He was bleeding pretty badly. I felt bad for him. He stunk really, really bad. I don't know how long he'd lived in those clothes. I do know that the Ogden officers used to go out and round these guys up when the weather would get really bad and they'd take them up and put them in jail just so they wouldn't freeze to death on the street. The judge in the Ogden Municipal Courts would fine them and they didn't have the money, do they'd take the jail time anywhere from a week to thirty days. They'd take them up to the jail and they'd change their clothes out and wash them down with a hose because most of these fellows lived in their clothes for a long time and they did every bodily function they could do in their clothes while they were under this alcoholic stupor. Some of these guys were pretty pitiful to look at. I watched several of them go through DT's in the jail. There really wasn't much we could do for them other than refer them to the nurse. "Airplane," as he was referred to, being in Ogden City on 25th Street, the Ogden police department really didn't like the sheriff's department to make arrests on 25th Street. Of course, this fellow was injured and was also intoxicated. I called our dispatcher and they said, "An Ogden officer down." He came down and he was in a brand new El Camino police car and he had his dog in the back in an insulated box that the dog rode in with a wire mesh gate on the front of it. As soon as he saw how bad Airplane was bleeding, even though I had given him a great big sterile pad to put on his head to help stem the flow of blood, the Ogden officer refused to put him in his patrol car because it was a brand new patrol car. As I said earlier, "Airplane" stunk really bad and it was the kind of stink 23 that you just don't want to be around. This Ogden office would not put him in the patrol car and he finally decided and he looked at me and I said, "I'm not taking him," I told him, "This is Ogden City." He went to the back of the patrol car and he dropped the tailgate and opened the door and took his dog out and walked him around and put him in the front seat. He went back and picked up Airplane, who was a very small man, and put him in the dog house and shut the door. A fellow came by from Ogden Police Department's crime lab and he took a photograph with "Airplane" with his fingers through the grate and looking out and blood on his face. That picture hung up in the downstairs evidence room of the Ogden Municipal Building for many years afterwards and I was witness to that happening. It was a pretty comical deal. I do know that several years later there was a fire at the Marion hotel and the Ogden officers got there first before the fire department even got there and they entered the building. That particular officer drug out a couple of those guys and saved their lives. He went back up inside to try and get some more of those fellows and he found "Airplane" and he had expired from smoke inhalation. He carried him out of the building and he sat on the curb on 25th Street and cried holding this little old man because he had nobody in the world and the officer knew who he was and dealt with him for years and he just felt really bad that he wasn't able to do more for him. I know that haunts him to this day, I know it does. He's still a police officer, but I won't give you his name. 24 WJ: You mentioned that the sheriff's office and the Ogden City Police Department shared some ground, but they preferred that you didn't touch 25th Street. Do you have any stories, other than dealing with Airplane, in or around 25th Street? MS: I have a number of them. Ogden city called us one night and they had a fight going on in a bar on 25th Street, El Borracho, I believe was the name of the bar as I remember. It was a large group of Hispanic men fighting and it boiled out into the street and it got pretty bad. The Ogden officers didn't have enough guys on duty that were clear, that weren't on calls, to handle it and they called us for help. We happened to be very close by, which was a rarity for the sheriff's department. I do know I was sent to a fatal accident and I was in Hooper when I got the call and the fatal accident was at mile marker 43 on Monte Cristo and I was the closest car. That's over 55 miles that I ran code 3, lights and siren. When I got to the accident scene I couldn't even hear because the siren was above your head on a light bar in those days. This particular night, I believe it was a Friday night, in the winter time again and we went down there and we didn't actually get inside. As I remember, we didn't even make it inside the building and the Ogden officers were grabbing people and pushing them out the door. They would say, "Take that one, let that one go." It was a pretty physical fight. There were a lot of guys that were bleeding and a lot of yelling and a lot of confusion going on. I remember we put four fellows handcuffed in the back seat of our patrol car and we kind of just piled them in there. We hauled them up to the jail and when you go to the ninth floor of the old city and county building, we had a holding room and it was basically a 25 steel room with a steel door and a little window and it had a couple of benches in there bolted to the wall and nothing else. There were no bathroom facilities and no water or anything. We would put prisoners in there until we could get them in individually to have them booked in at the screening desk which was an iron graded shield in front of the desk. The jail officer would stand behind that screen and ask them questions to get them booked into jail. We threw these guys in there to hold them and in the meantime, Ogden Police were bringing people in too. There were quite a number of fellows, I don't remember how many, but there was probably somewhere between 8 and 12 people that got arrested out of this. Some of the fellows were a little banged up and we stared taking guys out and we were just helping because being with the sheriff's department, the booking officer, there were two men on a midnight shift in the jail and it got a little hectic for them trying to get all these people taken care of and all the paperwork involved. I was helping to get this done and I more or less wound up being the guy that got the next guy out of the cell and brought him in. We'd put him up against the grading fence in front of the booking desk and we'd search them and take their property from them that had to be kept with a jailer like their belts and shoelaces and any money or anything in their pockets and things. Because it was winter time we were taking their coats also. We brought probably six or eight fellows in and got them booked, which probably took about a half hour to 45 minutes to get all of them booked. We finally grabbed one fellow and I brought him out and stood him up by the wall and I started to check his pockets. He was very verbal with me. He was 26 calling me every name you could think of and was extremely hostile and intoxicated. We started checking him and when I went and reached over to take his coat off I walked behind him and took it off his shoulders and brought it down over his arms. He had a knife sticking out of his chest. We got his ID out of him thinking he was an adult because he was in the bar. He was seventeen years old. We had to take him up to the hospital and that was the end of my night in the jail because they had to do surgery on him to have the knife removed. He didn't bleed very much and it didn't kill him. I remember the expression on the jailer's face when he saw that knife sticking out of his chest. He had a couple of choice words to say to us about searching him. I said, "I didn't search anybody, they came out of that bar handcuffed and we grabbed them and threw them in the car." This fellow probably went 45 minutes to maybe an hour with a knife sticking out of his chest inside his coat. WJ: Wow. I imagine you've seen a lot then. Is there anything else you'd like to share with us? MS: My grandfather was an interesting man, he really was. In his local ward, he was a high 70's and I do know that when somebody would not show up for their talk on Sunday in the sacrament meeting, they would call on my grandfather to fill in at a moment's notice. He was always able to come up with some interesting story to talk about with his relationship with the LDS church and his ideas of religion. He was very highly thought of in his local neighborhood and ward. In later years, after he passed away the neighborhood changed very much. Minorities started moving into the neighborhood and I do remember as a teenage boy mowing my 27 grandmother's lawn and I spent a lot of time down there taking care of her yard. Because of her age, she wasn't really able to do that kind of work. She had a very good relationship with two different black families there on the block and I remember one fellow walked by one day just as I got there on my motorcycle and he came walking over to me and I'd never seen him before other than maybe once or twice around the neighborhood. He walked over to me and said, "Who are you?" I said, "Well, I'm Mike." He said, "What are you doing here at Miss Baldwin's?" I said, "She's my grandmother I'm going to mow her lawn." He said, "Okay, just wanted to know what you were doing here." They watched out for her because she was a little old grandma and looked like a grandma and acted like a grandma and she was very sweet to anybody, it didn't matter what color you were or what religion you were, she was a grandma and that's how everyone referred to her. My grandfather and my grandmother are buried in South Ogden. We were just there not too long ago with another aunt and one of their children. It was interesting to walk over to my grandmother and grandfather's headstone and talk to them for a moment. I hadn't been up there since I was a kid. It was kind of interesting to see how the area had changed. When we buried my grandfather there was a very small pine tree just in front of his grave and that pine tree is huge now. He's been gone probably 47 or 48 years now so a lot of history has gone on. 25th Street had changed a lot in those years. Now it's very much a tourist attraction and eclectic place to go for dinner or the shops that are down there. That's really all I have about that part of their lives. 28 WJ: Thank you so much for sharing with us. MS: You're welcome. It was my pleasure. 29

Transcript of an oral history interview with Reinhard M. Lotz, conducted by Sarah Yahm at Norwich University in Northfield, Vermont, on 10 April 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Reinhard Lotz graduated from Norwich University in 1960; the bulk of the interview focuses on his subsequent military career in the U.S. Army. ; 1 Reinhard M. Lotz, NU 1960, Oral History Interview April 10, 2015 Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Sarah Yahm SARAH YAHM: Could you introduce yourself on tape? RON LOTZ: Yeah, my name's Reynard M. Lotz, they call me Ron. And I'm living in St. Louis, Missouri at the time. I had 30 years in the army and retired in 1990. So that means I'm the class of 1960. So again, it means that I'm in my 77th year. SY: Seventy seventh year, congratulations. So where were you born? RL: I was born in Jamestown, New York in 1938. SY: Where is Jamestown? RL: Jamestown is a town that I spent about four months in and then I really grew up in Waterbury, Connecticut. That was an industrial town, blue collar town, brass center of the world during the 19 -- actually up until after the war, until the 1950s. I can remember World War II and the blackouts. I can remember going by the factories that used to run 24 hours a day seven days a week and all the machines click clacking away. And they were making shell casings and that for the war effort. SY: And what were your parents doing during the war? RL: Well my mother was a stay at home mom. I had a sister. And my father ran the F.W. Woolworth Company, five and ten cent store there in town. And so when I was growing up I started working for my father when I was eight years old. And my father would pay me out of his own pocket. SY: Really? RL: Yeah, just because I wanted to earn some money and then I also did things like wash cars for 50 cents and mow lawns for 50 cents. So I was an entrepreneur. SY: I was just going to say, you were a little entrepreneur. Excellent and so when you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up? RL: You know it's a funny thing, I had some likes, but I never knew I would follow those. But I love military history. I love to read. And when I was at a very young age, I took my mother's library card and went into the adult section and got books to read. SY: You were one of those -- hold up, I got to close that door because of the sound of the vacuum is much louder on tape. RL: I understand.2 SY: Hey there. F2: Hello. SY: I'm doing interviews and the vacuuming is super loud. Do you know who's vacuuming and why? F2: No idea, but (inaudible) [00:02:31]. SY: OK, well I'll see you tomorrow. We'll just have to deal with the vacuuming. OK so you took the library card and you went -- RL: Into the adult section and got books and read them. I was one of those kids that loved to read and military history was one of my passions you might say. SY: I ask this to everybody actually, did you play war as a kid? RL: Yes, in the sandbox outside my back door. We had a sandbox. And I had plastic soldiers from that timeframe and I used to dig caves and castles and machine gun pits and the whole bit. SY: And was it World War II in your mind, was it World War I, was it the Civil War, was it the Revolutionary War. RL: Well it was World War II because I grew up in that timeframe and that was the thing that was most prevalent at the time. And during that time, you're going to grammar school, if you turned in newspaper and depending on how many bundles, et cetera, et cetera, you get stripes. I don't know if they call that PTA or whatever but there was an emblem you could put on your sleeve on your jacket with stripes on it depending on how much you collected and contributed to the war effort. SY: Interesting. Wow, OK, so the war was very much a part of your childhood. So how did you end up deciding to go to Norwich? RL: Well I went to a prep school, Mount Hermon, which was in Massachusetts, northern Massachusetts. But it was a prep school that part of your tuition was paid with working eight hours a week. And so when I went there I started off in the farm working with dairy cows. And then my second year I was groundskeeper and my third year building cleaning. And the epitome of my career at prep school was that I was a waiter in the dining facility which gave you a lot more free time and you became the friend of a lot of people who liked to sit at your table because you would make sure that you were in the kitchen, the first to get the food, et cetera, et cetera, and they always had second helpings. So I was at Mount Hermon and I applied to three colleges. One I was put on a waiting list, one I was rejected, and the other was Norwich University. Now I was a C+ student. So -- SY: Even with all that reading?3 RL: Oh with all that reading. My reading skills were far superior to my age, but the point being is that I came to Norwich and there was a lieutenant colonel -- no, he wasn't a lieutenant colonel, he was a first sergeant or sergeant major at that time. He was lieutenant colonel my freshman year. But he took me around the school and so impressed me with his attitude towards the school plus also how he treated me as a person that when I left I told my parents that's where I wanted to go. Now you have to realize too at that time all of us had to have a military obligation. Either you went in for six months, then the reserve or you went for two years active duty and that. So we were going to have to go into the military anyway and I loved military history. And when I came to Norwich University I just kind of fit in you might say. SY: Yeah, so what was your experience like as a rook? A lot of people have described a harsh awakening at that moment. Were you prepared? RL: I guess since I've been away to prep school and been away from home and that that I was able to adapt a lot easier maybe than those who had not been. I took it all with a grain of salt. I said these are things you're going to have to put up with so keep your mouth shut and grin and bear it. SY: Now were there some kids -- I know there were a lot of kids who washed out, it was like 51% or something in your class. Dick did the math. He told me. But do you remember, were there kids who got targeted? Do you remember hazing or was it mostly just like this is just something we need to get through, this is an elaborate game? RL: I think that there's always a certain amount of hazing. Hazing not in a real rough or negative sense, but hazing in the sense that maybe one guy or several people just maybe don't fit the mold so therefore they might get a little bit more of harassment than you did. Or maybe that you have adapted and try to do what the cadet is telling you to do, therefore the heat's off you. And we always used to try to help those cadets or rooks who were having a tough time. Heck, we helped polish their shoes. We made sure their uniforms were pressed. Some kids just weren't capable of accomplishing all that. And then you have to say too, I think today at Norwich the qualifications academically and everything have improved a great deal. Now you have SATs and ACT scores. Back in those days, it was based upon submission and also the recommendation from your teachers and of course your grades. But Norwich is a totally different school today versus back in the 1950s. SY: Yeah, but that's interesting. So you do remember helping kids out. RL: Oh yeah, absolutely. And some of the rooks harassed the rooks. I mean it wasn't just upper classmen. But it was sometimes -- it's a predator type of atmosphere and I think it's human nature. You just have to be careful of that and aware of it and make sure that it doesn't happen if you can do something to stop it, you see. SY: Yeah, and that's always the question is how do you keep it from crossing that line. RL: That's right. And it's how strong a person you are. If you're a very strong person with morals and with firm beliefs, then you try to do something to change that, but it's the 4 method in which you change that that's the key. If you're abrasive or in your face or something, the person that you're talking to or trying to get something changed, it's not going to work. You have to be able to balance it out and approach it in the right way in order to get results. And I learned this at Norwich. I used that all through my army career, is to approach something -- always treat the other person like you would like to be treated yourself. When you had a problem with a person, you sometimes had to be tough and some outright terminate his career or whatever, but it sometimes had to be done. It's not the fact that you wanted to do it, but the fact is that they broke the rules and there's nothing that you're going to repair it. You've had it. SY: Do you remember any moments at Norwich when you learned that lesson, any of those like difficult leadership dilemmas? It was a long time ago. RL: Well it's that I remember the good days. I remember one rook who he was never going to make it at Norwich because his intellect was to the point where you would say that it was at a level that was not college level, let me put it that way. Yet we tried to prep him for exams and things like that and we tried but he was finally eliminated because of his academics and he just couldn't do what had to be done. SY: It was almost cruel to keep him in the system. What part of the highs that you remember from your time in Norwich? RL: The comradery. SY: Had you experienced that before at boarding school? RL: No, I don't have friends -- my boarding school was something that I survived it. Academic-wise and everything else, it was a challenge for me. I was actually in a school that I was doing college work and so that prepared me though for Norwich because when I came to Norwich I was fully prepared to face the academics and know how to handle all that. So I got to say, that's a big plus. But when I got to Norwich, my relationships with the school and the profs and everything else, I remember the PMSNT, I remember those people who worked in the PMSNT office. I remember Major Pekoraro who was the engineer major there. And I was a business major but I joined the engineer society because of this major because he was a Korean War veteran who was a POW. And he was a role model. He was tough but just and just the type of person you felt you'd like to be around and learn from. There was a guy named Hardy who was a captain. And I think he had a relative or a brother or something that was going to Norwich at the time and he was an armored guy and he was a friendly, nice person. And then there was -- and some of the names here, I can't -- there was a lieutenant colonel there who also was a very role model. These guys were role models. The PMSNT was the tough guy, didn't have much association with him. But at Norwich I learned, because of our social life with our fraternities and things like that, it gave us an outlet and we had a closer relationship. And I think the class of 1960 has done amazingly well keeping abreast of each other and I've lost in the past year several of my classmates of whom I talked to before they passed on, just several days before they passed on, from the point that I wanted to say goodbye. It's a tough thing to do. You have to realize now that I'm on a 5 shortlist and those guys were important. And I think our class is like that. But Norwich has been a great influence on me because it gave me the opportunity for the leadership positions, I was a cadre member every year. My senior year I was -- we had the freshman battalion at that time and I was made the executive officer in charge of all the academics for all the freshmen. So I had to have academic boards. And we met on those with records of those cadets who were not achieving the standard that needed to be to graduate. So we would review their records and then recommended action, help, tutoring, or whatever it needed to try to get that kid back on track to get the rook, get them through that first year. SY: Do you think that type of dedication to the wellbeing of your rooks made you a better leader in the military later? RL: I think it did, but let me relate something that happened at summer camp. I was in the honor tank platoon and I also was -- SY: Hold on a second. It's like we're crossed here, it's like star crossed, you know what I mean. RL: I don't know if you can -- SY: I'm going to see if I can get Heather. (inaudible) [00:15:00] They're redoing the library. But it's like if somebody's talking in the hallway -- but they're right over there. She's going to ask. If she doesn't, we might just need to shell this as well into the back. RL: Are we going to have repeat all this again? SY: No, I can edit it together. But I want people to be able to listen to actual sound clips that don't involve listening to somebody -- RL: You can say that's combat. (laughter) You can hear the guns in the background, you know. SY: Exactly, this is so authentic that I took my recording all the way into whatever. Did Heather work her magic? I think she might've worked her -- RL: No, I don't think she's had time to -- and I don't think they're going to stop. They're on a time schedule and what's going to happen is they're going to just drive you nuts and have you do it. SY: You know this happens, they don't do work for days and I don't know their schedule and I can't ever get it. And then I'm like, "Great, they're done for a while." Then I bring someone in. This has happened to me like two or three times. RL: Well let me think. Want to try? SY: Yeah, let's keep talking.6 RL: If we can't maybe I can do something tomorrow, if I can. SY: Yeah, if you can you can pop by and if not, you're going to be back in October. RL: OK, we were talking about ROTC and summer camp. And I went to summer camp at Fort Knox -- thank you. SY: You're awesome. RL: And when I was there, we had two companies, A and B, and I was company A. And we had a lot of Norwich grads were there, plus VMI, plus Citadel, plus from all over, from all the ROTC units. And this was at Fort Knox. And there were two incidents that I remember vividly. One is that on a Saturday afternoon in 90 degree heat in my khaki uniform with an M1 on my shoulder, I was walking guard duty around the barracks that we lived in, World War II barracks. And the rest of the cadets were getting ready to go off because after twelve o'clock on Saturday they could go into town and do all that and I had the guard duty. I was on guard. And so I was walking around the barracks and one of the tac officers came up to me from Norwich and I reported to him and the general orders and the whole bit. And I was soaking wet. And he says, "Well how's it going?" And I turn to him and I said and I was facing him and I said, "Well sir I'm going to tell you that this has taught me one lesson, that I will never go into this man's army as a private." And he laughed. Well let me tell you, I was very serious about that. And then it came to where we were closing out and we were going to rate our contemporaries in the barracks and that. One of my classmates came up to me and said, "Ron," he says, "Don't you worry." He says, "Me and the boys are going to take care of you." And what he meant was that of all the Norwich guys and all the guys in that barracks that these guys had gotten together and rated me number one. SY: And why were you rated number one. RL: Because I think they liked me. You can't question that because you never are actively trying -- you're treating people the way you want to be treated. And you want to be a leader in the sense that you do the right thing at the right time and for the right reason. But when he came up and told me that and there were some pretty high powered Norwich guys in the cadet corps and they were going to be -- running the regiment that coming year. And so when it all came out there were two guys ranked top in armor ROTC summer camp. One was from VMI and one was from Norwich. It was me and one other guy. And so we went up head on head competition and the guy from VMI won out, which is fine because I went in there kind of naïve and I didn't know what to expect. But the point being was that I had the opportunity, Norwich had the opportunity, and Norwich did well at summer camp. And that was all that was important to me. So those things impacted on me and also the professors like Loring Hart who later became president of the university, he was my English teacher. And I was the news editor on the Guidon. And we had some West Point cadets come up because we had fraternities at that time, they said to us, "Boy do you guys have it great here," because of the social life and everything. And that was the greatest thing about Norwich. Norwich has always been about the citizen soldier. Now this is before we had civilian students, so you got to 7 realize that what I'm talking about here is my time at Norwich as a cadet corps, the citizen soldier. They trained us to go out into the world and be a civilian but if the country needed us, to come back and to serve our country. And that was our whole philosophy. SY: And I think the other element of the citizen solider that I find compelling is the idea that you're a thinking citizen with a trained mind and you also know how to follow orders, right? RL: Absolutely. SY: And so I'm wondering as you sort of went on in the army if that training as a citizen soldier ever got you into trouble. Did those two things ever clash, your moral code, your ethics, your trained mind, and, "Do this?" RL: Well I think it could and maybe did. It's like yes and no. There's only two answers. There's a no or a yes and there's nothing in between. Now therefore you become very moralistic, moral, saying, "OK, that's wrong." But in the real world, there's a middle line there and you have to try to come to grips with that. Sometimes you can't stomach it. I mean sometimes it's either yes or no and that's it. I find that too many times people are not willing to say yes or no, they're willing to kind of muddy the water and go with a middle direction and that may not be the best way to do. And sometimes, and this I shouldn't probably say, but I say sometimes that affects our policies and the way we look at combat and the way we look at what's happening out there. SY: Was there ever a time when you said no? Was there ever a time you sort of refused an order? RL: Refuse an order? SY: Where you're like, "I don't think this is right." RL: No, I have found in life that you never -- if you're given an order and you're in a public place and that, don't ever say no, ever. The time to say no is after in private because I have learned that commanders do not want to be criticized in front of their troops or in front of a group. And they will cut you off at the knees. And I understand, some people didn't. You don't get in an argument if you're briefing and the commander is saying something that you may not agree with or is trying to correct you, you let them do it. Point being is you correct it after the briefing or whatever. And if he still does not accept your evaluation of such and such, then you let it go. Now to say that you always do what you're told to do, yeah you better watch out because if you're told to do by the commander and he comes back and checks and it's not done, you're going to lose your job. But if you're told to do something and find a better way to do it, that's a different story. So you have to think. It's not just those things, yes sir two bags full. It's the point is, "Yes sir," and think about, then how to get it done. If it's an impossible thing to do, and I ran across this when I was a battalion commander, and it was during a timeframe where we were faced with cuts in the budget and we weren't getting the right maintenance equipment and things like that. And my troops were living in World War II barracks where in the wintertime we had to almost wrap the whole building in cellophane 8 in order to keep the wind out and the cold out. And we had oil furnaces that sometimes went belly up. And in the summer time my troops were dragging their mattresses outside and sleeping in the street because it was so hot inside. And I had a confrontation with my brigade commander, support command commander. And I went into his office and told him I did not have to be motivated by his letter of reprimand. And he looked at me and he says, "Is that all?" And I said, "Yes sir." "You're dismissed." And I walked out. And these are World War II barracks and one of the clerks had called the other battalion commanders and they came running to the support command headquarters. And they said, "What did you do? Why did you do a dumb thing like that?" He says, "All of us have gotten these letters of reprimand," but this is the way the colonel commanded his troops with giving them letters of reprimand to light fires under them. Well I was not -- if somebody had told me this before, maybe I would've been a little mellow, but I wasn't. And I was just stubborn enough to go in and confront him. And I'm not encouraging people to do that, think it out, let it cool off before you do something. But from that day on, that commander and I had a great relationship. SY: He respected you? RL: He and I would sit down on a Saturday morning because we were working six days a week, sometimes seven days a week. And this isn't peace time now. And he would say, "OK." And with the problems that he knew were happening with the battalion, he would say, "OK." And then he would write notes to that battalion commander for maintenance or admin for people. He'd tell them I want so and so and so done. Or he'd look at me say, "That's your responsibility. You take care of it." And you damn well better take care of it because he was giving you support but you were responsible for all this, now you get it done. And when he left, years and years later, I was at Arlington National Cemetery visiting the grave of my mother-in-law. And my wife and I walked up the hill. This is just below where the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is. And as I walked up and went onto the road, right across that street was a gravestone, a major general, who had been my support command commander. And I have done a composite book for all three of my children of my military record and in there I positively made this statement of this incident where he gave me a letter of reprimand. And what I said is that if I ever have to go to war, I want to go to war with this man because I knew that that was a man that I respected, that was a man that I knew he could do what he said he could do and he demanded that of his troops and he wouldn't take a "No." When he said, "Do it," you well knew it was to your benefit to do it. He had served three tours in Vietnam. He was highly decorated. He had been an enlisted man and then went to the prep school and then went to West Point. It was a guy I respected. SY: You trusted him. RL: Yeah. And you knew that he'd take care of you. But in order to survive in the battlefield, you had to learn and you had to do what he said because he had the experience. Now when you got the experience, you see, and then he would rely upon you to get the job done. But he'd tell you what to do and then it was up to you to do it. And how you did it, that was up to you.9 SY: Yeah, that's interesting. So let's rewind a little. So you finish up Norwich and you commission. And where do you go, what do you commission? RL: Well after I got my commission I went to -- because my eyes were not good enough for combat arms, I was commissioned in the transportation corps, but I had to serve three years in combat arms, that was the rule. So they sent me to Fort Benning. And I went to infantry officer basic course. I went to airborne school and then I went to ranger school. And if you ever need any stories about those schools, back in those days, I could tell you some that were -- again, it's one of those things where it is rough, but boy oh boy, you got to roll with the punches and you can have some good belly laughs out of it. SY: Well tell me one of them. RL: Well down in Florida during the jungle training, they kept you awake. They kept you on constant patrol, patrol, patrol. They wanted you to be exhausted, to see how you would react and how you could do it. Well we kept going out and out on patrols and we had a plan and usually we went out at night time, at night patrols. And I was the last guy in the patrol and I carried an M1 rifle. And we had these little florescent things attached to our cap where you can see the guy in front of you so you could follow him. And we were going through the swamps and there was a log there and I stepped over a log. And I took a step off the log and I went up to my waist in mud. And I looked around and there was nobody there. The guys had kept on going. They didn't know I was stuck in the mud. So here they are and you're not trying to shout or anything, but luckily the guy in front of me looked behind and didn't see me and sent the word up to halt for a minute. He came back and he had to pull me out of the mud or I would've been there to this day. And the fact is that we got through all this and we did all this and we were in the mountains one time and I had the automatic rifle slung across my neck and this is with the ammunition pouches and everything. We're walking up this mountain road and they said take a break. And I was on the left hand column, so I went off to the side of the road and just squatted to lean, I thought against a bank. Well there was no bank. And I went over head over heels down the side of this mountain and came up flat against a tree with my feet up in the air. And I wasn't hurt and I got myself out of that. So I called back up onto the road. Guys hauled me up. And we had a good chuckle about that. But it was stupid instances like that. They weren't funny to anybody else, but in our state of mind they were. And you never forget them. SY: Yeah, absolutely. So you do all of those different schools and then where's your first placement? RL: My first assignment was in Germany with the First of the Fifteenth Infantry Company B. That was the company that Audie Murphy served in during the Second World War. And as you know he was the most decorated of our military heroes. And at the time I arrived we were a straight infantry. We walked everywhere. We weren't mechanized. And while I was there, I was there a year and a half in Bamberg, Germany, and our mission was we would deploy to -- if the Russians came through the Fulda Gap to delay them as long as we could until the armor could move up to confront the enemy. So ours was the delaying action. Well while I was there, we became mechanized with armored personnel 10 carriers. But during that time we didn't have them, we would walk to training areas one way, either in the morning or walk back in the afternoon and be trucked out in the morning or be trucked back in the afternoon, one of them. But we walked one way because there was a gas shortage at that time. So periodically an infantry platoon was in our company was sent out to what they call a forward position, an infantry platoon plus an engineer platoon. And we had a cantonment area out there, barracks and all. And it was our job, we stayed in communication with the base, that if the balloon did go up and the Russians did come across then we had certain missions to protect the engineers in blowing bridges and et cetera, et cetera. And that's what our job was. And my job out there was to call unannounced alerts, usually early in the morning, and then the guys all had to jump, get dressed, and in the trucks, and gone out of the cantonment area to their designated positions. Now we did that for a year and a half and then because I was a transportation corps officer and had served my time in the combat arms, I was sent to Berlin, Germany. At that time it was a walled city. They were still building some of the wall. And it was isolated. There were four sections, French, British, American, and Soviet. And the Soviet section was walled in and you could only go -- usually you hear, "Checkpoint Charlie." Checkpoint Charlie was a real point in the wall with barbed wire and everything. Now I understand it's just like a block of concrete or something in the road. Well back then, it was real life. And I saw places where refugees had tried to climb the wall and had been terminated, had been killed. SY: So you saw their blood on the wall? RL: Well you knew where they were because the bodies had been taken away and we knew where they had tried to get across. But at that time I was a train commander and as a train commander I took the train from Berlin to Helmstedt which was in the western zone through the Russian zone. And we had to stop the train in Marienborn for a Soviet checkpoint. We wouldn't deal with East Germans. We didn't recognize the East Germans. We dealt with the Russians only. That was the politics of the time. And a Russian officer would be there. I had an interpreter and we would check every document for every person that was on the train. And sometimes you could tell when tensions were high the Russian officers would be really SOBs and when tensions were not high then they were more friendly. But there were always a couple of Russian officers who were SOBs regardless of what. However, I did that for a good year and at the same time I had a good buddy who had been in the infantry in one of the other battle groups in the same town, had been my roommate in Bamberg, Germany where we had been stationed, who reverted to the MP corps and came to Berlin and was riding the freight trains, the same route, everything else, but on a different track. But he was in charge of the MP detail that was on the freight trains. And I remember one time we got stopped in the middle of the Russian zone and I looked out my window of my passenger train and there was the freight train and there was my buddy. "How are you doing?" We put the window down, we'd chit chat before one of the trains moved on. He was going west and I was going east. But there were times like that and Berlin was -- SY: Were there any really high tension moments that you had?11 RL: Well yeah it was because you didn't know how they were going to react. I mean they could be real SOBs or they could be -- the thing is is that at that time you didn't want to take a chance of not following the rules. Berlin was the showcase of Western Europe. They had rebuilt it from the war and the contrast between West Berlin and the Soviet, it was like night and day. I was a staff officer for part of my time there and I had to take a Sedan and a driver and drive into the Russian sector just to show the flag. And sometimes I would get out to walk and I would take pictures of some -- Berlin before the war must've been a magnificent, beautiful city because I could tell you the architecture and everything else. And then the apartment buildings that the Russians had built looked about as drab and falling apart as you could ever believe. So that's why they had to put up the wall, that's why they had to stop the rupture of East Germans coming into the West. And cultural wise and everything else, the western zone -- guys, you couldn't have asked for anything more. And Kennedy came and paraded through West Berlin. I was there. I was there between like ten feet away, fifteen feet away, and believe it or not there was a Norwich graduate there, my class, name of Bob Francis who was in the signal corps. And I don't know if he was taking pictures for whatever, but he was there during the parade. I saw him and talked to him. Now when Kennedy lost his life, the Berliners, when he said ich bin ein Berliner and they just went crazy. They loved him. So when he died, they turned out every light in West Berlin. They turned out every light. There wasn't a light there and lit candles in their windows, put candles in their windows. SY: Do you remember where you were when you found out that Kennedy had been shot? RL: I was in Berlin, where exactly I can't remember. I just know that the effect it had on the Berliners and on the world was amazing. And the Berliners loved this man just from the standpoint of what he said that time and he had come. And the respect, the showing of respect by candles, putting them in the windows, and turning out all the other lights was amazing. No other president has been honored, I don't think, with such sincerity. People try to emulate, but unfortunately they fall far short. SY: Was there ever a moment when you were in Berlin or Germany in general where you were like, "This Cold War is about to get hot," where you thought, "Oh, it's going to start?" Did Dick tell me a story? Was it your story about a plane where if it took off, that was going to be a reaction? He said something about a plane. I don't know what I'm talking about. RL: That was Vietnam. SY: That was Vietnam. That was later. OK. RL: I keep hitting that. I can't remember because it was always there and you were always prepared. And so to say one point over another, I can't remember such. Now I did have a friend there who flew helicopters and I do remember flying over Hitler's bunker that was totally destroyed from the Second World War and there was just nothing but dirt, concrete, that had never been rebuilt. Little things like that I remember. I remember going to see the ballet, Swan Lake as a matter of fact. They brought all of these wonderful cultural things into Berlin to show people the difference between the two 12 countries or philosophies you might say. But to think about the tensions, yeah, but when we were told to make staff rides and to be in total communication with our headquarters because we never knew when our cars might be stopped and something might happen. But other than that, no. SY: Yeah, it was just a pervasive feeling? RL: It was a constant reminder and harassment to leave Berlin. To drive, it was going through checkpoints. And then you didn't know if you were going to get let back in and all of these things. But life goes on. SY: OK, so then you leave Berlin and where do you go next? RL: Well from Berlin I went to -- and let me relate something here too about Norwich. Back when I was a senior, Norwich had corporations come in to recruit and to interview you and that. Eastman Kodak came in and I was supposed to see them and I didn't. Eastman Kodak wrote me a letter and it said, "When you have your military obligation finished, let us know and we'll bring you to Rochester." So when I came back from overseas, there was a question there whether I would stay in the army or not. Not serious, but I wanted to explore all of my options. So I went to Rochester. They offered me a job and et cetera, et cetera, but I did stay in the military. SY: Why'd you decide to stay in? RL: Well maybe it was something I was used to, you felt comfortable in. You have a driving flame to be the general or something? No, I just felt comfortable in what I was doing. I liked what I was doing. And so I kind of just stuck with it. SY: And this is what? Now we're at '64? RL: Yes. SY: So Vietnam is just starting to get on people's radar. RL: The big buildup was '65, '66 when they started sending all the divisions over. And then of course '67, '68 being the Tet Offensive. So I was assigned out to Fort Lewis. And then I was only there a year and I was given orders to go to Fort Bragg to be trained as a Special Forces officer. So I reported into Fort Bragg and was trained. And the revolution in the Dominican Republic occurred. And the 82nd Airborne was deployed to the Dominican Republicans, so they sent a contingence of Special Forces down there, and I was one of those. My mission there was more -- as a detachment commander I was small team, modified team, intelligence gathering upcountry on the island. And then I came back after that and was the S4 for the unit. SY: So this is the revolution and opposition to Trujillo? RL: Trujillo had been assassinated. And the communist were trying to take over the country. And luckily the Dominicans were -- and the 82nd Airborne -- the US was asked to come 13 in and help. And they contained the uprising in the inner city of Santo Domingo, the inner city. And they barb wired it. They had literally barb wire all around the old city and kept the communist in there. Now there were some in the country, in other places and towns, but the Dominican Republic was set up as -- the police force was almost as strong as the army because every police force had a fort in every town. And they had their own weapons, et cetera, et cetera. And the police force was pretty brutal if there was any question at all. Like I was on jump status down there on the island and we used to jump over sugar cane fields. And nine out of ten times -- for practice and to keep proficient -- the police force or the military had brought in who they thought were rebels and popped them, dumped bodies in there. So you found those things. So there was a certain amount of strong armed tactics that the Dominicans were imposing against their own people. But these people were looked upon as Communists and were trying to take over the country. SY: So how did you react to that, finding those bodies in the fields? RL: I walked away. I wasn't going to bury them and I kind of took a pragmatic look at it. I said, "You know what, there is nothing I can do about it. These guys are dead. The diplomats are down here trying to effect an election where the people will elect a Democratic president. We're doing the best job that we can to provide a stable atmosphere for this to take place." And other than that -- and I was upcountry, as I say, intelligent gathering. And I will say that the country was pretty quiet. We had a few times where intelligence was -- radioed back. But the people on a whole were wonderful, hardworking people. And when I was the S4 of the unit, I went down to the quartermaster where our food depot was and that. And believe it or not, the doctors would condemn food, the package was open or something. It wasn't good enough for US soldier consumption. And there were no, what I call, rat turds in it or anything else, but it was just sitting there or a can was dented or something. I would police up all these food stuffs and with approval, the doctors said, "No that's OK but we can't serve this to the troops because of the rules." So I gather this up and we had other outposts in the country. And then I would fly up in a helicopter and give the food out to the people. I felt that was something because they were very, very poor. Let me tell you, the country at that time was -- SY: Oh I've spent time there. It still is. RL: I mean trash and everything, you couldn't believe it. Now it's a resort area though. SY: Except where it's not. RL: I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that there are some places in the world that never improve. Why is it that the -- again, it's the old power grab. Those that have, have and those that don't -- unfortunately. We try to change that in so many places in the world and we've always done the right thing, for the most part, but it's a very tough, tough thing to do. And they can only help themselves. 14 SY: So that's an intense period of time in the DR. And then you come back and then they're like, "Oh, since you had that nice, intense experience, we're going to send you somewhere easy. How about you go to Vietnam?" I'm kidding obviously. RL: That's right. No, no, I went to school at Fort Eustis, had a job there for six months in the educational department doing reviewing training and things like that. And then I went off to Vietnam. On the way over I took a delay in route and visited Japan, Okinawa, and Taiwan because I had gone to school with a couple of Chinese officers who were stationed on Taiwan. I visited with them before I went to Vietnam. SY: Did you have any idea what you were getting into? RL: No, because I didn't know where I was going to be assigned at the time and when I arrived there at Tan Son Nhat Airport, we were getting rocketed and we lived in tents until they made our assignments. And I was assigned as a transportation corps officer to the fourth transportation command, which was working pier operations and that in Saigon. And I was a pier operations officer for part of my tour there. And this was before Tet Offensive. And we had barge sights that were out of town and I used to go by myself with a 45 strapped to my hip and drive like hell. [We went either by the River in a boat or drove to each barge site.] But at that time, we didn't realize how the VC had infiltrated the area and how serious the problem was. I was extremely lucky. I always thought in my career that I had a guardian angel watching over me because there were so many times where it could've gone the other way. And I remember this, just the night before -- actually the night that I was out and did something, which I won't say right here, it was all job related. I was out there alone in the delta and I came back and that morning was when the VCs struck. And when somebody from Cholon, which was the Chinese sector, some of the officers were going out to the headquarters and got ambushed, shot up, they never made it. And all hell broke loose. And I remember that the VC drove the people on the outlining communities into the city. I remember outside the port area, the one street was just -- one night -- was just crammed with refugees just streaming into the city trying to get away from the fighting. And there were a lot of other incidents where we had ships that were sitting out trying to get up the Saigon River to offload and they'd be spending days and days out there because the port was just jammed with ships and we were trying to offload the equipment and everything and we couldn't get them all up. And some of these ships were commercial ships with cargo holes. And they were rocketed and there were gaping holes in the sides and in the upper structure and things like that because they had to travel up through the delta, in a winding river which wasn't very wide to get to Saigon. And those guys, the bad guys, were out there. And we did our job. And I had a very good friend who was a helicopter pilot. And I remember we had to go to Vung Tau one time and we were in a Huey and we had a number of technicians with us and things like that. And we were flying along the delta and we were skimming the delta. We weren't flying high. We were just skimming. And all of the sudden I just hear this whomp, whomp, whomp, whomp and all of the sudden my buddy in the pilot chair, the whole chopper, he was trying to lift it, almost physically lift that chopper to get altitude because we were under fire. And this guy I have a great admiration for. He's been a friend for a good, long time -- got us out of the situation. We 15 got above it all and flew on to Vung Tau. And we got out. We looked and we were just lucky. Again, it's a matter of time, where you are, and sometimes just plain luck. SY: Right place, right time. Wrong place, wrong time. Did you have any -- I know some people had sort of superstitious good luck charms or things they did to -- were there things in Vietnam that you did to just kind of keep yourself safe in your own mind. RL: Nope. I just kind of -- I tell you quite frankly, I remember the presidential palace, right across the street from my billet. I mean the VC were so close into the city and Saigon was a beautiful town. Well let me say this, Tudor Street which was all tree lined, but during war time a lot of bars and bar girls and all that. But a beautiful town, some really fine French restaurants, but when they say Pearl of the Orient, it was prior to this time. I would say after the war, World War II because I don't think there was much damage there during World War II. But it must've been a beautiful country. SY: So when you were in Vietnam, a lot of people, it was an existential crisis for them. It brought on a lot of doubts about why they were there, what they were doing, the nature of war itself. Was that your experience or did you -- RL: I think that you could dwell on that if you wanted to. But I also think it's in the situation which you're placed in. If you're under a great deal of stress, if you're under fire, if your life is -- it might be snuffed out in a minute's notice, that you start to think about it more and say, "Why the heck am I here, God protect me. Let me just get out of this." And it so shocks your system that that images, they keep reoccurring. It's like your memory buds have been lit up and those things keep coming back in flashes. So I think it's all based upon the situation and where you are and what you're doing. SY: It sounds like you weren't in combat directly. RL: I wasn't directly in combat. I could've been shot because of snipers or anything else. But did I have a rifle in my hand and going out into the jungle, no I did not. My job was to ensure that cargo got lifted off of these ships onto barges or any place else and was delivered to the troops. And I did that. When I got promoted to major, then I was, due to a recommendation by one of my instructors at the transportation school, they recommended me for a staff position. And so they moved me -- still in the Saigon port, but I was at a staff position while I was there, the rest of the time I was there. I was there thirteen months. I was given a special project to do and I told the command that I would stay there until it was finished. So rather than twelve months, I spent thirteen months. SY: Do you remember the first day you arrived and the day you left? RL: I remember the first day I arrived. SY: What was your impression? RL: It was hot, steamy hot. We had a tent city. And there were hundreds of troops in a cantonment area at Tan Son Nhat Airforce Base. Planes coming and going. And I wasn't there very long. And then I was assigned to a unit in Saigon where I was working nights. 16 So I would sleep in daytime. So I do remember the arrival and coming off the plane. But going home, I'd have a hard time. SY: You weren't counting down your days? Well no, because you had that special project, so it wasn't like you were sure. RL: Well I knew I was going to stay. I mean I just knew it. I knew that I was going to do this and that was it. It's hard to -- SY: Was it hard to adjust to coming back home after being in Vietnam? RL: I came back. I was stationed at Fort Monroe. And I worked for the training command there. And I was responsible for the training budget of all the service schools around the United States, to include the aviation schools at Fort Wolters, Rucker, all this. And I remember I worked for a guy named General Pepke and his deputy was a General Andrews. Pepke was a two star at that time and Andrews was a one star. And I had a very responsible position because at that time, believe it or not, in the early '70s, they were downsizing to get out of Vietnam and the school budgets were being cut. And I remember the DA staff called me about the aviation budget for our aviation schools. And I worked with two colonels, lieutenant colonels, who became general officers and trying to save the aviation budget from being cut to the bone. And I remember I worked on a lot of projects and was flying back and forth between Fort Monroe and Washington to work with these officers and try to save as much as we could. And that was I think a turning point probably in my career because I had not been selected for the Commander and General Staff College yet, I was a major. Now Commander and General Staff School is very important to you. I hadn't been selected yet. So there was an opportunity there and I was already working on my master's degree, going to night school. Now I was working constantly with a high pressure job and I was going to school for my master's degree with George Washington and I was doing commander general staff work with the reserve unit at Fort Eustis which was about 20 miles away. SY: You were a busy guy. RL: So I was going to school for four nights a week plus weekends working plus doing my job plus doing the papers and studying and doing all the things you have to do. So I was out and that's why I say to people don't ever get discouraged, don't let people tell you that you're not going to make it or you're not going to do something. You have to keep plugging away and rely upon yourself to be good enough to do it. So I have to say that I wasn't married at the time, so your social life goes to hell in a handbasket. See, you have to set your priorities. And there's another thing that Norwich is going to help you do is set priorities and know what's important and what's not important in life because you have to look down the pike. Think outside the box and then see what it's going to be like ten -- 15 -- 20 years from now. So if you want a career, you got to work for it. And they're not going to hand it to you. You go out and get it. You prove your point to them. So all this happened and I finished up my Commander and General Staff stuff, I got my master's degree, and they shipped me to Korea.17 SY: Now at this point you must be tired. RL: Well I'm going to tell you right now, the thing is that you learn something from your education, from Norwich, which is to press on. It's the old thing as can do, I will try, whatever. Can do was my infantry, first of the fifteenth, can do outfit, Norwich was I will try. And those things drive you, especially if you have fire in your belly and you want to go someplace. And you're not satisfied with just sitting on your butt and hoping that it's going to happen. So I go to Korea and I work for 8th Army HQ in Seoul and I'm a logistical staff officer and out of the blue the general calls me in and said, "Oh by the way you're going to continue as a logistical staff officer, but you're now the missile maintenance officer for Korea." That's an ordinance job and the ordinance officer had just gone home and they didn't have anybody. So now I'm responsible and the problem they had with the Hawk missile program which is a Raytheon product was they were getting about 40% reliability. And DA was holy hell on the command. So I had to do something about that. Well let me put it this way, it's a twelve month tour in Korea. And my assignment officer, the big assignment officer from DA, came over and he says, "Hey, yeah Lotz, you're going to the armed forces staff college." So I said, "Hey look, I've been to Leavenworth." He says, "You're going to the joint school, the armed forces staff college, in Norfolk." And I said, "Well when's this going to happen." He said, "Your next class is six or seven to eight months out," after I come back. I said, "What will I be doing?" He said, "You'll snowbird." Well snowbird is that you go there and you do whatever the school tells you to do. And I told him, I said, "No, I don't want to do that." I stayed in Korea 18 months. I worked on the job I did and when I did that, the reliability of the Hawk missile was at 94%. I had done a whole refurbishment program on the other missiles that we had in budget, I had set up budgets for refurbishment, did all of that, and so I came out of Korea with what they call is a dual job efficiency report because I did two jobs in one. And then I went to the armed forces staff college. SY: There you go. And then you get married. RL: No, not yet. I got to school. I went through school. I was assigned to the military personnel center where I was given a job as the lead on women in the army. I used to brief the DA staff. I used to go over there with all the statistics because we were trying to create a model that would determine the grade and MOS and how to bring them in without having big bubbles and all of that, et cetera, et cetera. And I used to go over with these big, in those days, printouts like this and I used to brief the DA staff. And I used to bring these printouts to them and I'd say generals if you don't believe what I'm saying, you can read it. And I drop it on the floor and they'd all laugh. We're talking about two or three stars and they all laugh because they know they aren't going to do that thing. So they were listening to what I was saying, it's the how we were trying to work this. And I wasn't trying to be smart. I was just trying to lighten the load, just be a little levity there. And I was recommended for the Pace Award because of that and I was given a special award. And I met my wife in Washington. My wife, I was trying to get a date with her and she was busy or I was busy. One time I just got fed up and said, "Are you free Friday night? Can we go out?" And she finally said yes. And so her father was a retired colonel infantry which she never let me forget. And we went out to dinner and dancing down in Washington. And I said to her that night, I said, "I think I'm going to marry 18 you." She said she'd never marry a military guy. And she says, "I think you're right." I've been married ever since, the same woman, very happily married. SY: That's a lovely story. So we've been talking for like about an hour and fifteen minutes. RL: And you want to know something? You got more than you need. SY: And I think you probably want to -- I don't want to take up your whole day. RL: No, and I got to get going. SY: Yeah, exactly. So any last thoughts? This was great. Let me -- RL: It's too much, I know. But I'm telling you stories. SY: No, no, you're telling me stories. This is all really important. RL: We haven't gotten to the point where I got to be a battalion commander about this guy, Pendleton, who used to be -- I'll tell you that a different time. But that's the leadership team. There's what you face as a battalion commander. There is where you have distress and strain of seven days a week, 24 hours a day and have to take care of the troops. SY: So when we have more time, we'll really go into that. I'll put a pin in this. So let's pick. So when we talked on the phone yesterday, you were talking about how you think that in terms of remembering war there's this unfair hierarchy where combat stories are valued more highly than other stories. So do you want to speak to that? RL: It's the perception that people have that when you mention warfare, they think of combat because that's what it's all about. You wouldn't have a war unless somebody was fighting. So we focus on those people who are in combat because they're the ones nine out of ten times who get wounded or there's fatalities and things like that. But we forget about those who support the combat troops, the combat service support troops, and things like that, that there's a huge number of people behind supplying and taking care of, the medical people and the supply people and the transportation people and all these people that are supporting the combat role. Even the artillery people, the combat service support, it's a team and we can't forget that there's a large team behind the combat lines that are supporting those in the trenches. SY: And also I'm sure that in Vietnam even though you were behind the lines, you still were in danger all the time I would imagine. RL: Well you were because the way the war was there, you didn't know who your enemy was because the enemy melded in with the populace. And the snipers and the ambushes and things like that that could happen at any time. So you always had to be prepared. The convoys had to be prepared even in the city sometimes, especially during the Tet Offensive in '68, the Tet Offensive. A lieutenant working with us was ambushed and was killed. So it could happen at any time. And there was no front lines in the First World19 War. It was a trench. And you knew those bad guys were on that side and you were on the other side. It's a different war out there during my service. SY: Yeah. What was it like to live with that constant anxiety and confusion? You were there for a long time? RL: Well yeah, but the thing is is that you didn't dwell on it because if you dwelt on it, then you were afraid all the time and you couldn't get your job done and you couldn't function. So you put it out of your mind. It's one of those things that when you're put under stress, you look to God to say, "Make sure I get through this." SY: Were there ever moments when it broke through and felt that fear, like I don't know, going to bed at night or waking up in the morning or things like that? RL: Only from the standpoint of anxiety you might say. There were times -- the night before the Tet Offensive, I had to go to a barge site and I went alone and I had to go through the city across the bridge outside the city. And the Vietnamese troops were guarding the bridge and so I pulled up in my Jeep and they looked at me and I said, "I got to go to the barge site," which was a couple miles away. You had to go through this little village and all. And they looked like as if I was nuts. But I went and this was about one o'clock in the morning. And I went through the village down to the barge site, checked it out, the operation and everything, and came back and at dawn that same day the next vehicle that came into that village was ambushed. Well there for the grace of God, go I. So there's no way of telling what's going to happen at times. And so the anxiety level is there but you can't dwell on it and you do your job. SY: Does your training keep you from dwelling on it? RL: I think so, yeah, if you know what you're doing. It definitely is a big plus. If you didn't know what you were doing, your anxiety level would really be high because then you would be looking in the shadows. It's not that you're not conscious of what's going on around you because your training develops that instinct to look at certain things and evaluate certain -- and quickly and whether it's safe or not safe. So from that standpoint, yeah your training is a key factor into how you react and how you look at things. It tells you when to go and not to go at times. So it can be a life saver. SY: So I interviewed a guy just last month or a couple weeks ago and he was also an officer. He was also a logistics guy behind the scenes, but it was in Iraq and as we know there's no real distinction between combat and noncombat anymore. And he was describing when he came back, it took him a while to realize that he had some of the signs of PTSD. He needed the quick fix. He had the hypervigilance. He was seeking out thrills and things like that. And I'm wondering if -- it was talked about less in Vietnam, especially if you'd come back and function, it wasn't talked about at all. But did you when you came back experience trouble adjusting back into a civilian -- not civilian because you're still in but? RL: Well I think maybe I had a sense of -- I was self-sufficient you might say. I could handle my emotions. I could -- so I'm self-sufficient you might say, not a loner, but able to cope 20 you might say better than others. And because of my background, because of how I was brought up, because of everything, that all contributes to how you adapt and can assimilate all that happens to you in a combat zone when you come back and try to come back into the community. The associations you have with your family, the associations you have with people, how you view the world and everything else, all of that's a factor in what affects you up here in your head. SY: Claire, can you tell them to be quiet nicely? F2: Sure. RL: See that all affects how you look on life. And so from that standpoint I would say that I didn't come back with a lot of anxiety, I came back to a world that was safe, the world that hadn't been effected by war, a world that I didn't have to watch out. SY: Was it strange to like sleep in a nice comfortable and to eat delicious food? RL: No. SY: It just was easy? RL: It was easy. I assimilated right back in. But I tell you, that's based on attitude too. And you got to realize this, you don't always sleep on the floor. You don't always sleep and live out of a rucksack. There were cantonment areas and things like that. In Vietnam it was like they were trying, because the war wasn't popular, is they tried to bring all the comforts of home to Vietnam. So for the combat troops when they weren't out in the field, they could come back to a cantonment area with all -- good food, rest, relaxation, et cetera, et cetera. And they also had the R&R where they could go over to Australia or to Japan or wherever and Thailand. So there were certain things and they tried in Vietnam to try to keep guys in combat maybe six months and then six months in a rural area. So there's all different aspects that you have to consider when you look how a person's going to react when he comes back. SY: Are there any, I don't know -- when you think about Vietnam, I don't know how often you think about it now. Are there smells, images, feelings that you remember, anything that sticks with you? One guy, I read his memoir, he talked about the smell because they were burning poop where he was living. RL: That was up at a cantonment area. We had the outside latrines and all that and they had to do it to get rid of it. A lot of times in the Orient you'll find they'd throw it on their fields, in the rice, and all that. They use it for fertilizing. Well the Germans did too and animal manure was – used as fertilizer. SY: Welcome to Vermont spring. RL: Well you had the old honey wagon. So in Germany they used to pour it onto the fields. And that's why you had to be careful of what you ate and things like that, especially in the Orient. What I remember about Vietnam, the food, not the American but I mean the 21 Vietnamese food. I do remember the time where there was during the Tet Offensive a lot of rocket attacks right across the street from where I was staying and the presidential palace wasn't too far, like two blocks away. The thing was that the rocket attacks would come in and then I remember one morning they heavily rocketed that area and the concussions and the noise you hit the floor, and then I ran outside because right across the street there was a Vietnamese family and a rocket had hit the house. And so this other fellow and I ran inside, up the rubble, actually the rubble, and got into the front entrance because the family had children. And we found the family, luckily nobody was hurt. They were underneath the stairs and they had been saved because they had taken shelter underneath the stairs where that closet or whatever it was saved them. And we hauled them out. I remember that. I remember working in the Saigon port and on the Saigon River. I remember that little incidence where we took ground fire. I remember little things like that. SY: Yeah, I bet the food was amazing. RL: The food was. I thought the food -- Oriental food can be quite good. When I was stationed in Korea I used to eat on the economy all the time. And you'd sit on a pillow and fold your legs and a lot of times they had a grill in front of you and things like that. I liked Korean beer. SY: Korean beer is good. I like Korean barbeque too. So we haven't gotten talk about you being -- you were a brigade commander right? RL: I was a brigade commander. SY: How many people were in your brigade? RL: It was thousands. I was a commander of the school brigade which had all the troops and students for the transportation school at Fort Eustis. SY: And the story you were telling of when you were staying in the World War II barracks and you had that -- RL: I was a battalion commander at Fort Bragg. SY: That was Fort Bragg? RL: That was Fort Bragg, North Carolina. I was commander of the seventh transportation battalion, had a long military history in that battalion. We had the only airborne car company still left in the United States army and that was left over from World War II. And the commander was a captain and he was on jump status because of the airborne car company, that was the connotation of it. And they were used -- that's why I say it's leftover from the Second World War. They also had an air delivery company, quartermaster company, where it was commanded by a major. And they did rigging for heavy drops, meaning vehicles, supplies, everything, and rigging the parachutes, and things like that. And because I had airborne troops in my battalion, my job also my slot was designated as an airborne slot. So at 44 I was still jumping out of airplanes.22 SY: Woah, so how'd your wife feel about that? RL: I had been married two years, three years at that time. And her father had been a 30 year veteran in the infantry, had been in the Second World War and that. And it's part of the job. SY: You were meeting a lot of people. So did you have any leadership challenges? How do you think you did as a leader? Were you the right mixture of approachable and intimidating? Did you think about that? RL: Well I guess if I had to self-evaluate, I was both because my commander expected -- he expected his commanders to be combat ready all the time and to be efficient and to get the job done regardless of the obstacles. There was a certain amount of pressure. Which therefore, you had to -- like they say, it rolls downhill. Now you had to say that at this time we had a volunteer army. Yeah, we were in a volunteer army. We had kids from all over the country. And we had to appeal to their sense of duty because that wasn't an eight to five job. I don't know where they ever got this idea. And the accommodations they lived in were not pleasant. They were the bunks and the World War II barracks, one latrine at the end. And the barracks were not in very good shape because that was the time of the Carter timeframe and they were cutting back on the forces. The money wasn't there. It wasn't being appropriated for repair parts or anything else so your vehicles were down a lot of time. You had to spend long hours to try to maintain and keep them going. And maintenance was one of the biggest problems with keeping the vehicles going, trying to make sure that the troops were taken care, and weren't put in such a state where they couldn't function. And we just did so many different things within the battalion because not only did I have truck company, I had Jeeps, I had an air delivery company, I had a Stevedore company that lifted the boxes and all that. So we had a challenge because we were multifunction, not just one focus. And we supported the 82nd airborne. And the 82nd airborne was -- they had three brigades. One brigade would be in the field and we had to support them. One brigade would be in garrison and we had to support them. And one brigade would be I'd say down, not deployable, they were resting after doing these other two. Well we had to support on a 24 hour, seven day basis, those two other brigades. We never had any down time. And that's why the vehicles had problems because we were running them all the time. And so it got to be a challenge, a real big challenge. But I was extremely proud of my battalion I encouraged my troops to be competitors. Fort Bragg there was very competitive with the 82nd airborne, the other troops there. They had boxing matches. We had combat football. We had air delivery competitions with the 82nd because they had their own air delivery unit. And I would say that my boxers, I reestablished and let some of my troops box, started taking championships. We beat the 82nd airborne in combat football, never been done before even though my commander who was a major at the time and was captain of our combat football team broke his collar bone. And it wasn't too long after that that they outlawed combat football because there were too many injuries. But the fact here is here was a support element, a transportation battalion, that went up against the combat troops, the 82nd airborne, and beat them in combat football, biggest thing. I was real proud of my troops. I had the championship women's basketball team at Fort Bragg. So esprit de corps is a very important thing and you got to give them a sense of accomplishment, not 23 only on the job but also in these other areas. So you try to encourage that. It's a difficult thing. It's a balancing act. It's like you have to keep all the balls up in the air at the same time and you have to learn how to do that. And it's not an easy thing. SY: Interesting. So I have two more questions for you and then Clark has some Norwich questions for you. But I also know time is an issue. My buddy Dick [Shultz?] told me a story. He discovered halfway through that I was Jewish. And then it was all over. He talked about -- he says you have some story about an airplane, it was in Vietnam, almost taking off or something, a Cold War story about if this airplane takes off, we're with war with Russia. I don't know, he remembered something. You don't know what he's talking about or you do? And you watched the plane hover and then it went down again. Maybe this wasn't Vietnam. Maybe this was Korea. I don't know. RL: I don't know. I was in South America one time and I was in special ops. I was Special Forces then. And one of the planes, it was a C123, which was an old prop driven. I mean you never see those today. And it was special ops. And the pilots, we were contour flying. Contour flying means you're right on the deck, bounding up and down because of the air drafts and everything else, and I remember this vividly. I was up with the pilots and these two guys -- you got to remember, air force guys I think are a little bit different than army guys. And they have to be for what they do. And these two pilots were up there just chatting away. I mean it was like they're having a cup of coffee down in the wherever and they were just chatting back and forth and this thing was bouncing up and down, up and down, and all across wise. And they were just having the grandest time. And you got to realize that it takes a special breed to do this. And it's the joy. I mean, I was a young guy and I just had the greatest time because -- and you have to have the competence though. And that's where you were talking about the training and everything else is so important. It's that these guys were able to do this, almost with their eyes closed. But the fact is, it was dangerous, what we were doing. And the helicopter I told you about being shot at and the pilot, as I say, I make light of it. But the fact was, we were taking ground fire and very well that chopper could've gone right there into the patties except for the pilot, again who I knew personally and had great confidence, and just pulled back on the pitch. And that thing, we didn't know if it was going to make it up or not because the rounds were hitting and if they'd hit the wrong part, we were done for. But this guy was just cool as hell, pardon the expression. He was. And that chopper, the vibration, it was just straining to get up over 1,000 feet where we get out of range of the ground fire. There were other things, but -- which one? There was a couple other things. But it was fun because you're young and you think you're invincible. And like you were talking about, how do you feel about -- some of these things you don't think about because you put it right out of your mind. And sometimes you put it out of your mind for a purpose. SY: Training plus testosterone. RL: And you just don't think about it after that too. Some of the things are so emotional that you don't. You put them out of your mind and you don't go back. That's just the way of life.24 SY: So one last question, people talk a lot about the military civilian divide. And you said that they're two different cultures. So you were in the military a long time and then you're retired. And so how do you interact with the civilian world? Do you feel different than the people around you who are civilians? Do you mostly spend time in military circles still? RL: No, when I left the service I never looked behind. And I went 180 degrees, gone the other way. SY: All right, what did you do? RL: I established my own business out of a hobby. I worked with antique clocks, 1700 and 1800. And I found that in order for me to establish a business, I had to go do these high end antique shows. And so I started doing high end antique shows, maybe was doing 15 or 16 a year -- I had a studio built off the back of my house. Business was by appointment only. And I had between 45 and 50 tall case clocks plus all these other clocks and things like that. And I'm down to about two shows a year now. And I used to be driving 40,000 miles a year to do the shows. But it gave me the latitude to be my own boss. It gave me the latitude to where if I didn't want to work seven days a week, 24 hours a day, I didn't have to because I had a young family. And I just didn't want to go back into the pressure cooker. The pressure cooker is what I call, even in my final days -- I had great jobs, one of them where I was the DCS for air transportation in the military airlift command, which is now melded into the transportation command at Scott Airforce Base. I was responsible for all the aerial reports and cargo and passengers all over the world. I had people all over the world. And so one time I left from Scott Airforce Base to the west coast to Hawaii, to Japan, to Korea, to Okinawa, to the Philippines, to Diego Garcia, to Turkey, to Germany, to Spain, to England, and home. So I only say that because I'm giving you the perspective that you can do anything in your military career. It depends on the field you're in. And one time I worked for the comptroller of the army as one of his executive assistants and was also congressional liaison for the appropriation committee with Congress. I worked with the Senate and the House of Representations when I was stationed in Washington. So what I'm trying to say is that a military career is not just one thing. I've had a varied career from combat arms to comptrollership to transportation to a multitude of other things, Special Forces and that. SY: But then you didn't want to go back. You wanted a job that wasn't that intense? RL: Well it was the fact is that that was me. Everybody's different and it was me. And I've been involved with Norwich since I was a class agent. And let me just tell you what I did because this is what I say to the Norwich grad is to keep active. I was a class agent for a while, then I was president of the alumni club in Washington DC. Then I went to the alumni board. Then I was president of the alumni association. Then I went to the board of trustees. Then I went to the Board of Fellows. Then I was chairman of the Board of Fellows. And then I had been a contributor with the Partridge Society and all of that. And I worked with the Colby Symposium for 20 years. And today they just appointed me as chair of the Friends of the Colby, the military author's symposium.25 SY: Cool, congratulations. Do you feel like Norwich -- it clearly prepared you for a military career. Do you think it also prepared you for your civilian career? RL: Sure. SY: How so? RL: I think that Norwich gave me an attitude. You know, it's an attitude and it's a level of confidence. Norwich University was the perfect match for me because it gave me the opportunity for leadership positions. I was the cadre every year I was here. And second it did, it gave me a great opportunity to meet combat vets because of the PMSNT and the cadre officers and that and to associate with some really find people. Thirdly, I met some great professors. Loring Hart was my English teacher. And I wrote an article for the Guidon one time and he wrote me a little note. He said, "Well done, you learned something." Little things like that that were feedback from the administration. Ernie Harmon who was the president at the time, I had met maybe four or five times. And when I was given an award or my diploma and the only other time I met him was when he chewed me out one time really bad when I was a corporal of the guard, and I mean really bad. SY: What did you do? RL: He drove up and parked his Cadillac and was going up to his office and I was the corporal of the guard. We were ready to take the flag down or something. And I didn't see him. But I didn't call the guard to attention or anything. And he just came over and chewed me out for not calling to attention and saluting him. And I said, "Yes sir." And the other time I met him was the time he called me into his office. And here's a good story for you. He called me in. He says, "I got a letter from your parents. They're concerned because you weren't accepted into advanced ROTC," because I failed the medical because of my eyes. And he says, "Do you want to be in advanced ROTC?" And I said, "Yes sir." He said, "Well this is what we're going to do." He told me exactly what he was going to do. He was going to get me my eye reexamined at Fort Ethan Allen and that the transportation would be provided for me and to report at such and such a time. And that was it, bang, gone. I went up to Fort Ethan Allen, went to the doctor there, doctor came from my home town. And he says, "What's the problem?" He says, "Well you got to be kidding me." He says, "During the Second World War with guys that were absolutely blind were in the infantry and they gave them two or three pairs of glasses in case they broke one and they sent them off into combat." So he reexamined me and passed me and that's why I had a 30 year career in the army. And I spent a lot of time, when they said I couldn't be in the combat arms, I spent a lot of time in the combat arms. So I tell these cadets don't give up and the fact is you can be anything that you want to be, you just work for it. SY: Now, Clark you had a question. It was about this canoeing trip right? CLARK HAYWOOD: (inaudible) [01:41:05] that you got to, as I would say, as a young guy, you got to hang out with Homer Dodge. So what was Homer Dodge like?26 RL: Wonderful guy, just a wonderful -- and he had to be in his 90s. All right, I was stationed in Washington DC at the time and I was working in the Pentagon. And I was elected president of the alumni club in Washington. And so my wife and I, we looked at what we could do to be interesting for the group, to bring him in. So I contact Dr. Dodge and asked him if I went down and picked him up -- now he was down in Pawtucket and Camorra, Cremini or something plantation. He had a beautiful home right on the Pawtuxet River, old, old home. And I said if we come down and pick you up and bring you up for the meeting and then take you home. Well that was like two hours down, two hours back. Anyway, he agreed to that. So my wife and I went down and he addressed the group. And by the time it was all finished, we got home at like one or two o'clock in the morning after driving him home. And he invited us to come back and spend the day with him. So we did. Now he was a canoeist. If you read his bio and that, he was a pretty serious canoeist. And at the age that he was, he was still canoeing. I couldn't believe it. And he had it all upstairs. He hadn't lost a bit. He had not lost a bit physically and everything else. And his stature, he wasn't a very tall guy, but he says, "Come on." He says, "I want to go in the marshlands along the river here and we'll go canoeing." So my wife and I got the canoe out and all three of us got in and he paddled us around and showed us all this marshland and things like that. And we just had a great time. And we had lunch together down there. And so that's how my connection with another president, he was president from 1944 to 1950, and then Ernie Harmon came in. And then Barksdale Hamlett I think came in after Ernie. And I knew him. And then it was Loring Hart. And then it was Russ Todd. Then it became Rich Schneider. I knew every one of these guys. I worked with them because of my association with the school. SY: So what about -- you've seen Norwich change a lot over the years. And how do you feel about the changes? Your alumni are sometimes very pro and very anti, it's interesting. RL: Well you have to realize that our society has changed. And when females came into the corps, well that was a big thing. Well at the same time I was working in Washington. And as I told you, women in the army, that's what I worked on. SY: So you did work on that? You worked on making that happen. RL: Yeah. I was briefing the generals. Remember I talked about those reports and I used to throw them on the floor to laugh because this was all the statistics they were providing because we were trying to integrate women into the army in certain MOSs by grade and MOS so there weren't any big bubbles, you see, because for promotion and everything else. And so this was a big thing that the Pentagon was concerned about. And they were getting a lot of court action, litigation. So we were an important part of the personnel system to make all this happen in a logical way. And that was where my commander because of the group I was leading gave me a special award and also recommended me for the Pace Award which was a very prestigious thing. I didn't get it, but the point is that he thought enough of me to recommend me for it. And that's what counts in life is that at least you get recommended for some of these things. But seeing that in the corps, so that didn't bother me at all because I had women in my battalion. And they were some of my best officers and best NCOs. Now I will say we did have some problems with women in the army and that was with -- and the only thing I want to mention here is lesbianism. 27 We did have issues of that. And that's changed too. You got to know what the period of the time was and the problems that we were confronted with which we hadn't confronted before. So they were new to us. So in order to be concerned about protecting troops and everything else, you had to reorient yourself. And that's the most important thing. The issue why I say that is to be able to be flexible enough to adapt to a new change and to be behind it and to understand it and support it. Now if you don't -- there were times where I don't agree with everything that happens at Norwich but at the same time I understand this is a big operation here. It's grown so much that the opportunities for these cadets -- they're busy all the time. All the opportunities are so much greater than what we had when I was going to school. And the other thing is that you've got civilians here too. And those are all different problems that you have to work through so there's no favoritism towards one body or towards the other. And that's why I say with a Colby symposium is that we have to incorporate the civilians as well as the military. So the subjects have to be such as that they relate to both sides. And therefore they interconnect and therefore what we're trying to do is enrich the student's experience. And what I say is think outside the box. You can't be just focused with blinders on. If you do that then you're missing a lot. And you're missing a lot in life too. SY: That might be a good note to end on. Clark, any other questions? CH: Yeah, do you have any anecdotes of any of the presidents that you worked with at all, just funny or anything serious that you learned, like insights from the past? RL: Well Ernie Harmon was -- he'd watch you from his window as you walked your tours and all that. He was gruff. He was fair. And I didn't have a lot of contact with him. The awards, the diploma, and when it was necessary. Other than that, you didn't want to have any experience with him from that standpoint because it might be negative. That's what you didn't want because Ernie, he was a tough guy, but he was fair. SY: Any interactions with his wife? RL: No, none. None whatsoever. SY: I'm reading her autobiography right now. RL: You're a cadet and you're talking in the 1950s. And we're isolated then because we didn't have '89 up here. And that's what I think -- that's what made our class just hang together, the comradery and the fraternities and everything else. And that's why I think even today with our class, we hang together. Maybe it's other classes. It just happens that maybe I'm looking at just my class, but then you went from there to Hamlett who was a gentleman. He only was here for a little while. I think he got sick or had cancer or something and left. So it was limited experience there. But then Loring Hart came in. Now he was my English professor. And I have to say that Loring Hart drew me back into Norwich, he did, because I was in the alumni club, but he says you got to come back to Norwich. And he used to stay with me when I was the president. He used to stay in our home, he and his wife Marylyn. And she was a delightful person. SY: I'm trying to track her down.28 RL: I think she died. She's passed away. Either that or she's in a -- SY: A nursing home? RL: Yeah, extended care. And I'll mention that in just a minute. But Loring Hart was an academician and at the time -- each one of these presidents that we're talking about was the man for his time. That's what they needed. And then of course they outlived their time and so then they bring somebody else. So Loring was the academician. I think he brought people together. He certainly was a favorite of mine. I used to stay with him when I came up for the meetings. That's because we were friends. And that friendship developed after Norwich, after I graduated. When Loring left and Russ Todd came on, Russ and I talked -- General Todd and I talked a lot because I was on the trustees at that time. And he was the right man for the time because of the military aspect, that's what they needed. But I will say this, that Rick Schneider when it was his time to do it -- and he's been here, what, 20 some years. He brought characteristics or elements of all the presidents previously you might say. And why I say that, maybe not in the intensity of an Ernie Harmon, but he came with his military background with the Coast Guard. Second was his finance background, which is a Godspeed because he understands that you can't do anything unless you have the money to do it. And that is a big plus in the atmosphere that we operate in today. He also is able to work with people. Therefore, he's been able to advance the university in certain areas. And he's given them the latitude to do that, where we've gotten more prestigious things that are necessary in a university. Now he's working on the campaign for the bicentennial which he knows that may be part of his legacy is the fact that he leaves the school financially better off than when he came in, which is a very important thing because if we're to perpetuate this for longevity, we need the financial endowment. A lot of big schools have these huge endowments over the years. But you got to realize that in the early years, even in the '60s and the '70s, there was a very small endowment. And there wasn't a lot of money being given. But after that with technology a lot of our graduates have done extremely well. And they've been very generous with giving back to the school. So that's an important element as we look at our history in the 20th century and now in the 21st century is how things have changed from that standpoint. The university's changed because of the physical plant, because of the civilian population. And yet we're still getting great admission in the cadet corps. So the core values of the university, the concept of citizen soldier, has got to be preserved because that's the main stay as far as I'm concerned of the university. And when I came to this school, I had no intention of going into the military as a career. I took business and I expected to go into the business world. SY: And so why do you think you did? RL: As I progressed, everybody had to go in and had a military obligation regardless. I don't know how it developed. It just developed. I was always one of these people who was willing to take on responsibility and I was a cadre member the whole time. I did well at summer camp. And I was involved with all of these organizations here. SY: You were good at it.29 RL: Well I was interested in it. I was interested, like the honor committee and all these committees. But the point being is that I did well so I had the opportunity to -- I was a distinguished military graduate. I had the opportunity to accept an army commission. And I said, "Why not? Twenty years, get my masters, and go out in the business." Well I got to that point where I had my master's and 20 years and I got promoted early to colonel. And I had young kids and everything. I loved the military. So I just stayed in for 30. But how did I get into, it was Norwich. I didn't have any intention of coming into the military like a lot of these young men and women come into the school today. I had no idea that I would spend 30 years in the army. But I had a great career. I had great opportunities, great assignments, and so you look back on your life and you say, "Gee, I've been lucky." But I have to say that I was prepared academically before I came to Norwich, how to study, because the grades are important. And Norwich developed me after that. I don't know what more I can say. SY: I'm worried about you catching your plane. RL: No, no, don't worry about that. I'll catch that plane. I know how to do it. As long as they don't ticket me for speeding. SY: I think we're good. Thank you for coming back today. RL: Well you can edit anything out of that you want. END OF AUDIO FILE

In einer Bevölkerung mit immer älteren und auch kränkeren Patienten nimmt die Zahl der Menschen mit Demenz deutlich zu. Damit stellen sie eine zunehmende Herausforderung an die Betreuung aller Beteiligten dar, sowohl in medizinischer als auch in pflegerischer sowie ethischer und sozialmedizinischer Sicht. Wie stellen wir uns dieser Herausforderung? Wie sehen wir diese Menschen in unserer Mitte? Inwieweit werden und können sie in unsere Gesellschaft integriert werden? Wie gehen wir mit ihnen in Praxis und Krankenhaus um? Wie behandeln wir sie, wie müssten, wie sollten wir sie behandeln? Der 6. Ärztetag am Dom will versuchen, aus medizinischer, medizinisch-psychologischer, sozialer und ethischer Sicht hierzu die Fragen einzugrenzen und erste Antworten zu geben.Grußworte (Bischof Dr. Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst, Limburg)Der Blick des Gläubigen führt die notwendige Differenzierung der wissenschaftlichen Fachdisziplinen wieder zusammen: Der ganze Mensch, in jedem Stadium des Lebens, ist einmalig; er besitzt einen Namen, nicht nur ein Krankheitsbild. Ungeachtet seiner körperlich-geistigen Einbußen besitzt er eine Würde, die in seiner Bundespartnerschaft mit Gott wurzelt. Alle Menschen sind aufgerufen, demente Personen als selbstverständlichen Teil unserer Gemeinschaft anzunehmen. Auch Demenz ist Leben.Medizinische Grundlagen und Behandlungsmöglichkeiten der Demenz (Prof. Dr. med. Johannes Pantel und Dr. rer. nat. Julia Haberstroh, Arbeitsbereich Altersmedizin mit Schwerpunkt Psychogeriatrie und klinische Gerontologie, Institut für Allgemeinmedizin der Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität Frankfurt am Main)Die Demenzen zählen zu den häufigsten neuropsychiatrischen Erkrankungen des höheren Lebensalters. Demenz ist ein klinisch definiertes Syndrom, dessen Leitsymptomatik eine chronische und zumeist im Alter erworbene organisch bedingte Beeinträchtigung der intellektuellen Leistungsfähigkeit darstellt. In den fortgeschrittenen Stadien geht diese mit einem erheblichen Verlust an Autonomie und der Fähigkeit zur ...