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Part one of an interview with Anna Mazzaferro. Topics include: Anna's grandparents lived in Italy. Her father moved to the United States around 1910, settled in Fitchburg, and joined the military in 1917. How her parents met. The work her father did. Her father's death from a brain tumor in 1947. How life changed for her mother after her father died. The importance of family meals. The food Anna's family would prepared and can with produce from the garden. The chickens her father kept. Neighborhood blackouts during World War II. What life was like during World War II. The importance of education to Anna's parents. Anna went to college after her children were grown. Memories of Fitchburg from her childhood. The band she played in. Her father's bocce games on Sunday afternoons. How Anna learned to drive and how she got her first car. The trip she took to Italy in 1998. Her mother's relatives in the United States. What her mother was like. Her father built the Marconi Club Hall in Fitchburg. Social clubs and the community created by parishes. The values Anna grew up with and how she carries on traditions. The family newsletters she writes. ; 1 LINDA: I can never remember the date. ANNA: It's the middle of November already. LINDA: I know. It's amazing. So this is Linda [Rosenwan] with the Center for Italian Culture. It's Wednesday, November 14th, we're with Anna Mazzaferro at 575 West Street in Leominster. This is actually her second interview. The first interview unfortunately didn't come through. There was a corrupted smartcard. So good morning, Anna. ANNA: Good morning, Linda. LINDA: So, we're going to try not to reinvent the second interview and just make believe this is the first one. So if I ask you the same questions, don't wonder, don't wonder why obviously. ANNA: Okay. LINDA: So I believe that you'd like to start with your grandparents. Is that true? ANNA: My grandparents never came to America, they were in Italy. And I have most of the information about my grandparents from my cousin who was living in Rome. She tells me how my grandfather, Alphonso [Guglielmi] was a great mason and bricklayer and a builder of homes. She tells me he built a little palace in Rome. The family, my sisters and I visited this area of um Italy, which is Pina Santovani in Lemarca, the province of Lemarca. And we saw the homes that were built in 1902 and 1913 that the family used out there. The homes were still standing; they're stone homes and they have -- the keystone has the dates on it, so this is how we can remember the dates that the houses were built. Now, my father and his father worked on the 1902 home, but my father had left for America in 1910 or 1911, so he never saw the 1913 home that his father and his brothers built. And from what my cousin tells me, they traveled a great deal between Pina Santovani and Rome to do construction work. Also my, my grandfather did other work like making olive oil. 2 They would go to Rome, make olive oil, and bring it back to Pina Santovani to sell. They did a lot of trading at that time. This was 1900 up to 1910 that my father was involved with. After that it was my grandfather and my uncles. So my father came to America in 1910, 1911, and that date is the date we think he came because going back to my grandfather, he kept a journal. Every day he would say, "Today I went to such a place," "Today my son Dario did this," "Today we bought shoes for Oreste." And he kept this journal. In 1910 there were no more entries pertaining to my father, so they felt that this was when he left for America. LINDA: It's strange that that wasn't an entry. ANNA: I know. I know. I haven't seen that part of the journal, and maybe it's there and maybe pages have torn out; it's a very old one. But in 1918, the journals relating to my father appear again, and they say that they received money from America that my father had sent back to his family. So this was of course during the First World War, and my father… LINDA: Did your father join the service? ANNA: Yes, my father was here in 1910 or 1911. He became a United States citizen, and he entered the war in October of 1917. I have a copy of the newspaper article that it said the second 40 depart from Fort Devens. And the 40 I think refer to a 40 percent. I think each area had to send a certain percentage of the males to Devens, and Fitchburg sent their second 40 percent, and the picture was in the newspaper. My father of course is the most handsome man in that picture. But how we happened to find that newspaper, my husband Aldo was at a meeting at the City Hall in Fitchburg, and at that time in the waiting room the walls were being painted, and all the framed pictures from the wall were on the floor. And waiting for his turn my husband saw this newspaper that was framed on the floor. He picked it up and started reading it, and the date was October 8, 1917. And he's looking down the 3 list of about 40 or 50 names that were in that picture, and he comes across the name Oreste Guglielmi. So he knew that my father's picture was in that newspaper. And I did go up to the City Hall and ask for a copy of it so that I could make copies of that, and I have one now. So it's quite a nice… LINDA: A nice treasure, yeah. ANNA: A treasure, a great remembrance. LINDA: Now, getting back to your grandfather, how many children were there in the family? ANNA: Five children, I believe there were four boys -- there were six, two girls and four boys. Some of them died in infancy. LINDA: Four girls and… ANNA: Four boys and two girls. LINDA: Okay. Now, was your father the only one… ANNA: He was the oldest. He was the oldest boy in the family. LINDA: Now, did he ever have contact with his brothers and sisters again? ANNA: Yes, he would always write to them, but he never got back to see them. In 1917, 1918 when he was sent to France, from what my cousin tells me, he requested permission to go to Italy, and apparently it was not granted. He never went back to Italy. LINDA: And they never followed him? ANNA: Well, one of the journal entries from my grandfather's journal said that he prepared passports for himself, his wife, and the children. The whole family was to come to America. But shortly after that my grandfather became ill, then my grandmother became ill, and they never came. They both died. LINDA: Now, do you remember any stories that your father may have told you about Italy? ANNA: My father died in 1947, and we were quite young. We really didn't get into too many stories about Italy. But he said he had come because the streets of the United States were supposed to be paved in gold and there 4 wasn't much work other than their own construction, and they felt that he could do better if he came to Italy. And he was to come and see how it is and then fly back. I do have some of the letters that my father wrote to his parents when he got back from the war in the 1920s. When he was married, he would send money to them. In fact some of the entries in my grandfather's book show that in 1920 he would send over 10,000 lira to Italy. And at one point in April of 1920, he sent back to ask his parents to get a marriage certificate that he had married in the United States, and I guess they wanted it recorded in the church out there where he was born. So that's in my grandfather's journal. LINDA: Interesting. Now, how did your father meet your mother? ANNA: My father came and boarded on Third Street. The Lily family had a boarding house. Apparently there were other young men that had come from Italy, and they came from the area that the Lily family had come, and they knew that there was a boarding house here in Fitchburg, and they did board with them. Now, when my mother came, which was in 1919 -- I recall her saying that she landed in New York on Labor Day, September 1919. Her brother was here already, was married, and lived on Second Street in Fitchburg. And my mother came from New York to Fitchburg and lived with her brother and his family, and I'm sure there because Second Street and Third Street were only a block away, my father and mother met. And they were married in April of 1920. So my mother was here about six months, six or seven months before she married. LINDA: Seems unusual that your father was here about nine years, eight to nine years, although he spent a few years, I guess… ANNA: In the war, right. LINDA: Yes. So what kind of jobs did your father have?5 ANNA: He had construction work. He was an artist in building fireplaces, chimneys, brick homes, stucco work, plastering, and he was very much in demand. Many contractors would call and ask my father to work for them; and as far as I can remember he worked just about every single day, except Sundays, of course. But it was always beautiful work. And as children, during summer vacation if he worked in any area that was within walking distance we would carry his lunch to him at noontime, and we would sit with him and have a sandwich while he ate his lunch. They would have a half an hour for a break at noontime, and my mother would make sure that we were there by twelve o'clock so he got time to eat his lunch. He was a wonderful man; I have great memories of my father, and my mother, but especially my father. I seemed to be closer to him probably because I was the middle daughter. The oldest one, my sister, who's only a year and a half older than I am, but she helped my mother more. And my other two sisters were twins, and they were probably two or three years younger than I, and they were always considered younger. So I was the middle one, and I was the boy of the family more or less. LINDA: Now, did he ever teach you anything about laying brick? ANNA: No. No, I never did any of that work. LINDA: But do you suppose if you were a boy you would have? ANNA: I would have been, I definitely would have been. I know many young men that were taught under my father. He always had an apprentice with him, somebody who was learning the trade. In fact my brother-in-law, my sister's husband, learned the trade under my father. And there are other men that worked with my father and then they brought their sons in to learn the trade. There are many people that still remember my father and his work, and they speak to me about telling me well, the fireplace is still in my home that your father built, or the chimney is still standing that my father built. He died in 1947, so that's quite a few years ago. 6 In fact he died as a result of an accident on work. He and an apprentice were working on a roof this particular day, and they were carrying pails and bricks and other things up to the roof, up and down the ladder. Well, at this particular time my father was at the bottom of the ladder and the apprentice was climbing and dropped something, which hit my father in the back of the ear on his head. And shortly after that my father started experiencing dizziness, and he thought it was his eyes or his teeth, and everything checked out fine, but apparently it was a start of a tumor. So when this became obvious that he was having this dizziness was the month of July. And my father had one cousin, only one cousin that came from Italy; all the rest of the family stayed out there. So my father and this cousin were very close, it was David [Potheti] who lived in Quincy, which was at that time maybe an hour and a half or two-hour drive from Fitchburg to Quincy, and we would often visit. But this particular day in July, my father wanted to go to visit his cousin, and my sister Helen was preparing for a wedding in October, for her wedding, and my sister Lena was already married. So my father asked me to go with him to Quincy and he asked me to drive, which is very unusual, especially going out of town. He would never have asked me to drive, so I sort of thought he wasn't feeling well. But he and I went to Quincy, and on the way back he was telling his cousin that when he looks up into chimneys and all he gets dizzy, so he was going to have his eyes checked, thinking there was something wrong with his eyes that was causing the dizziness. And on the way back from Quincy he told me, he says, "Well, I'm going to go to the doctor and have my eyes checked because this dizziness is bothering me." 7 So that was the month of July, but he never complained. He did end up getting reading glasses, but everything seemed to check out okay. And apparently the test was not as thorough as they are today, because there was a tumor growing in the back of his head on the side behind his ear, and they didn't discover that until October. It was at my sister's wedding reception that my father collapsed. He had gone through the wedding ceremony, the dinner, the receiving line, and during the reception he just collapsed on the floor. And the next day when he saw the doctor, after a few days they admitted him to the hospital for tests, and they found that he had a tumor in his brain. And from October to the time he died in March, he never got out of bed. I recall him saying, I drove him to the hospital and he said, "You know," he says, "I never packed a suitcase for a vacation." He says, "But here I am packing it to go to the hospital." He said that when he got out of the hospital he and my mother were going to take a nice vacation. Then he went to the Burbank Hospital in Fitchburg, and from there to Mass General in Boston, back to Burbank, back home and from October to March he never got on his feet again. So he died the end of March, March 29, 1947. LINDA: So 1947 or '48? ANNA: '47, 1947. LINDA: Okay. How was life different for your mother, let's say, after that? ANNA: Well, she relied a lot more on me, because I was driving and my other sisters were not. My sister Lena was married, and my other two sisters were at home, the three of us were at home. Well, Helen had just got married in October, so she wasn't there. But my sister Mary and I were at home with my mother. So it was different, it certainly took a lot out of my mother because she aged, I think, 10 years in just a few months. LINDA: Now, how was she able to get money to live?8 ANNA: Well, we were working, and there was Social Security that my father had left for her. And we owned our home. This was the home that my father built when I was two years old, and we'd been living in that house all that time. He built the house in 1924, and it was a stucco house with shingles on top and a two-family house. LINDA: Now, why did he build a two-family house? ANNA: For economy, I think, you know, collect the rent, and it paid for your own. LINDA: He rented to other Italians? ANNA: We rented to one family that lived with us until their family got too big and left. That was the [Mendosi] family. They remained close friends all the time. Then we rented to a family, the Levanti family, and they stayed there for 60 years. LINDA: Sixty? ANNA: Fifty years, yeah they liked it so much that they stayed. They have a small family, so they were able to -- they had two boys, and there's four rooms upstairs, and they loved the house so they just stayed there. Downstairs we had four girls, so it started out to be a four-room house, but he added on a two-car garage and made two rooms above that garage, so he had an extension to the first floor where we lived. So, the six of us were very comfortable there. We felt very comfortable. You know, we weren't rich, but my father had a car and worked every day. We never felt any want for things that we could not have. There was always food on the table. It was different than it is nowadays I think, my mother would be at home, she'd have supper ready at five o'clock, you know, for my father when he came home. And the family always ate together. We would all be home from work at that time. So it was a nice family. LINDA: Do you think it's important to eat together? ANNA: I think so, I think it is. Although I could not do it when my children were growing up and my husband had very bad hours as far as getting home, he 9 never got home at five o'clock, you know. And my children, when they were in school, they were involved in sports, and one would have a four o'clock game, the other one would have five o'clock, the other one at six, you know, pick one up, drop the other one off and always had something to eat, but it was never sitting together. It was a rare occasion rather than the common thing to have supper all together. LINDA: So how did you keep your family together? ANNA: Well, it was a challenge, but we managed to do that. We stayed together, certainly. Just took care of all their sports, all their school activities, all their sports activities. There was always a time where we would come together Saturdays, Sundays we'd be together, holidays. LINDA: Did you keep those days sacred? One day? ANNA: Sundays. Sundays was always a church day; we'd go to church as a family all together. LINDA: And then share a meal after? ANNA: Yes, yes. LINDA: Was it a traditional Italian meal? ANNA: Usually, yes. It was always pasta and chicken on Sundays. Then as they got older, Aldo was at home at that time and after mass we would go for breakfast in some restaurant, and that would be a family affair. We did this quite often with my own family, of course not when I was a child because we didn't get into restaurants in those days, you know. But my family, I recall almost every Sunday going to breakfast at Howard Johnson's or someplace, you know, that they would pick. LINDA: So getting back to growing up in Fitchburg, you had told me what street that you had lived on and there were gardens, perhaps? ANNA: Yes, our house was the last house on the street. And beyond that, there were gardens and woods. And the neighbors would lease a lot of land from whoever owned the property, and they would grow their tomatoes and beans and potatoes, carrots, all the vegetables they could fit there, lettuce and all kinds of produce. And this would be their activity during 10 the summer. They would go up there and take care of their garden and collect whatever fruits there were. And the children early in the morning, all the children of the neighborhood would meet say at 6:30 in the morning and go pick blueberries up in the woods. We'd come back and we'd be making blueberry pancakes or muffins or something like that, you know, with our blueberries. And even freeze, not freeze them in those days, you had to can them, so we would do that. And many of the vegetables that were grown in the garden, tomatoes and all, would be canned. They would be bottled for the winter. It was not unusual to find a cellar that had all the provisions for the winter, the homemade tomato sauce and all that all packed. LINDA: Did you ever sell any of the produce? ANNA: Yes, if you had too many tomatoes you would call one of the markets and see if they could use some of the fresh fruit, some of the tomatoes, green peppers, green beans. If you had too much you would sell it to the stores; they would give you something for it, and they would sell it to other people. LINDA: So who was in charge of the garden? For example, who was responsible to weed it and plan for its harvest? ANNA: My mother and father did most of it. I would say they did all of it, yeah. We would probably help a little but not that much. I don't recall doing too much. We also had chickens, and I do recall that as my job to go get the eggs and to feed the chickens every day, and I did that until the rooster sniffed me one day and then I wouldn't go in there anymore. LINDA: Now, where were these chickens kept? ANNA: We had another garage that my father built, and we had that as a chicken coop. We made a chicken coop out of that garage, yeah. LINDA: Someone had told me that sometimes at these gardens someone would build a shack. ANNA: Yes.11 LINDA: And I forgot, there's an Italian term of course, and I can't remember what it was called, but evidently sometimes there was a woodstove in there so that people could cook their sauce. Did you have anything like that on your property? ANNA: No, we didn't. No, we had that garage that my father had built. That was not the two-car garage that he built for our cars with the bedrooms over; this was another garage separated from the property. There was also another two-car garage, and one of them we used as the chicken coop. LINDA: So it must have been abutting your land? ANNA: No, it was on our land but it was separated from the house. LINDA: Is it still there? ANNA: It's still there, yeah. And now it's used for a garage, you know. My sister lives in the house now, my sister and her husband, and they rent the garage. They have a car, one car, and the other three stalls are rented. So the stalls were very well built; they're still being used today. LINDA: Now, did your family have another kitchen, maybe in the basement, a stove? ANNA: Yes, yes, we had -- not a stove, we had a sink down in the cellar so that when vegetables or whatever was brought in, we'd be -- in fact this is funny, but we had this sink with a mirror on it, and many times there were four daughters, we had four girls in the house. And he would go downstairs to shave so that we could use the bathroom; he was very accommodating. He would go down into the cellar where the sink and this mirror were set up, and he would shave down there. LINDA: Did your family ever use the cellar in the basement to eat? ANNA: No, no. No, it was just for storage. It was cold; a cold cellar, so you could keep vegetables down there, you could have a barrel full of apples that would last you all winter. We'd have a wine barrel, but it was cool enough to store apples. And I recall many times we'd go down, fill up our fruit bowl with apples from the cellar. We didn't have to go to the store or to the farm to buy apples. We'd do it once, and it would last for the winter.12 LINDA: I'm noticing that different regions where Italians are from, that Southern Italians rarely utilize their basement. They actually have a kitchen in the basement, but I think it's probably because it's so much warmer in Southern Italy, so they just grab that tradition here. ANNA: Yes, probably. Ours was just storage. In fact my father built cabinets down there that -- one of them he made like a cedar cabinet that we would put our woolens in there and keep our clothes there that were out of season. And with four daughters, he provided all this for us. But we had the furnace down there, you know, then -- and for a while it was coal, and then it was converted to oil, you know. So it wasn't a place to have a meal, but it was a place for washing your vegetables and anything that wasn't clean enough to come upstairs, you have to wash it first downstairs. LINDA: Now, do you feel as though because there were four daughters that perhaps come of you did what would be called a boy's jobs? ANNA: Yes. Yes. And I was the one to do that. Yeah. Yeah. LINDA: Well, tell me about that. ANNA: Well, I recall during the Second World War when we had blackouts in the area, you know, they would put all the lights out in homes and in streets, then they would assign people to join the civil defense, and they would have various jobs to do. Well, my father and a few of the men from that neighborhood had to go out and patrol the streets to make sure that everything was all right during these blackouts, and I would go with my father. I would accompany him on these blackouts. Then also women were asked to do things. We had Rosie the Riveter at that time, and we also had a motor corps, which is what I joined. They would teach us how to change tires, how to look under the hood to see if anything was wrong with the car, and things that, you know, might go wrong with cars and they weren't -- the men were all in the war, so the women were supposed to know how to do these 13 things. But today I wouldn't change a tire. [Unintelligible - 00:31:42] I wouldn't know what to do today, but in 1941, '42, we did that. LINDA: So let's get back to the blackouts. Was that typically what a son would do? ANNA: Yes. Yes. LINDA: Accompany his father? ANNA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's the men that did that. Yeah. LINDA: Mm-hmm. So what would happen if you noticed the neighbor wasn't turning off the lights? ANNA: You'd have to go tell them turn off your lights, you know, you got to knock on the door and tell them. It's blackout. And most of them, I think, most of the people really cooperated. If there was a blackout, you'd find the street black, you know, and all the lights were out. LINDA: Mm-hmm. So do you feel that your generation was defined by World War II and the Depression? ANNA: I think so. World War II was -- started right after I got out of high school, and the boys from my class went to war, and the women were doing the work around that the men should have been doing if they were there, but there weren't any men around. I worked for an attorney at that time, Thomas [Duling], in the Park building in Fitchburg, and I started working -- well, the day after I got out of school I started working at Fitchburg State College in the registrar's office. They were taking summer registration, and I was asked if I could go up there and help with the registrations, and I did for about two weeks but then Attorney Duling's secretary was going on vacation, so he called to see if I would help him out for two weeks, and that sounded interesting, you know, to work in the law office. And I did, but those two weeks extended to nine years. I stayed there with him for nine years and really helped him with the legal work. I would go to court with him, take down a lot of the 14 testimony in [unintelligible - 00:33:49] like quote stenography and worked on many cases. The hours were long. There was no 9 to 5 job. It was like get there at maybe eight o'clock in the morning. You might still be working at eight o'clock at night if there were a case that were coming up the next day, a new trial, or you'd have to be there interviewing witnesses and getting ready for the next day. I did a lot of traveling with him between Worcester and Boston to go to the various courts. LINDA: Was there ever a time that you wished that you had gone to Washington? ANNA: Yes. Yes. There was. [Unintelligible - 00:34:32] get there. LINDA: But you had mentioned before that your parents thought that education was very important. ANNA: He did. Yes. But they also felt that they could not send me to college. The money was not around for a college education, and I think at that time too it was felt that a girl was going to marry, raise a family, and stay at home. It wasn't as necessary for a girl to have the college education as it was for a son. And that was the situation when I got out of high school. There wasn't any money for college. But when my sisters, my two youngest sisters got out, he was -- he wanted to send them to college. They were -- I think they got out three years after I did, but they didn't want to go. So I always felt that I wanted go further into education, and I went back to school after I married, and I had six children. One of them died in infancy. But after the five children were grown up, the youngest was then in junior high school, I did got back to Fitchburg State College, and that was in 1973, I believe it was. LINDA: So you were about 51 or so? ANNA: Yes. Yes. Yep. I would call -- the math teacher in one class was showing averages. And he says, "Now, the average student, the average age of this class is," and he's going up and down the aisle, you know, and this one 15 was 18, that was 19, and I was 20 now, and he got to me and I said 50. And I brought that average way up there. So they laughed at that. LINDA: Well, good for you though. And I bet you were an inspiration to all of them. ANNA: I enjoyed going. I found -- you know, there was a lot of young people that, you know, sometimes they have the reputation that they're just going to college for the fun of it, but there were some there that were really into getting an education, and it was nice to see that. LINDA: So during the time that you were going to college, did you have children in college? ANNA: Yes, I did. Yeah. My oldest son had already started. He was, I think, in his sophomore year, and my second son was in his last year of high school. He was ready to start the following September. And my other two children were in high school, and my last daughter was just going to start high school. She was in her last year at junior high. She was in the 8th grade. She was going to go in the 9th grade. So I had a 9th grade, 10th grade, 11th grade, 12th grade, and one in college. LINDA: Well, did you take a full course load? ANNA: Yes. I did. In fact, I took an accelerated course because I wanted to get through as quickly as possible knowing that I had family responsibility. So I did finish in three and a half years. I got through in December of '76. LINDA: That must have been a big family graduation party? ANNA: No. LINDA: No. ANNA: I didn't want any party. I was just glad that I had finished, and I did graduate magna cum laude, so I felt good about that. That was good. LINDA: So did you feel as though you growing up in a household of girls and your parents really didn't have enough money, and they thought you're a woman, maybe didn't need an education, how did you feel that you had two daughters and three sons? ANNA: Three sons. Yes. 16 LINDA: Did you treat them differently? ANNA: No, we wanted education for them. They knew from day one they were going to go to college, and knowing that they were so close in age that I knew that I had to prepare for this, you know, and I did. My husband, of course, knew how to save money, too. He knows how to spend it, but he knows how when it's necessary to save it and start investing, and we were able to do it. There were four in college and one in graduate school all at the same time. So that was quite a hefty bill to pay, you know. But we managed it. LINDA: So getting -- I want to still talk about your childhood in Fitchburg. I remember you talking about a sled and a tricycle. ANNA: Yes. We had one sled and one tricycle, and it was passed down to all four of us. Yep. Yeah, there were no bikes. No, nothing. Nothing else, you know. We had this one tricycle, and that was it. Lena had it first, I would have it second, and then the two twins had to share it. Yeah. And the sled the same. SPEAKER 1: Hello. Good to see you. LINDA: So actually, more about the sled and tricycle. I was just wondering if you could tell me a little bit about your leisure time. We know that your generation had to work so hard, you know, just to make ends meet. But what did you do [unintelligible - 00:40:03]? ANNA: Just in our last years of high school when I formed an all-girls band. I think I -- I don't know if I mentioned that before, but we called ourselves the Melody Maids. And we played for our church events, the dances that they would have, the Catholic youth dances, at that time. We played for that. The girl scouts held a prom, and they hired us to play at their prom. I think we got paid a dollar for the evening. One dollar. LINDA: A dollar apiece. ANNA: A dollar apiece. Right. And there were six of us. We had a piano, violin, a saxophone, a trumpet, an electric guitar, and the drums. So we had a nice band. We would practice at my house, open all the windows. The 17 neighbors wanted us to -- they heard us practicing and they wanted to hear the music. So we would play in our living room and entertain as much as -- if they call it entertainment. But we played for the neighbors. Then that didn't last too long, long enough for us to have a few jobs and have somewhat of a reputation around the churches that we could play for them. LINDA: Are you referring to a few years, or… ANNA: Yes. A few years. But then, with the war and girls going off with boyfriends and getting married, we didn't continue anymore. LINDA: So was it typical for your generation to learn a musical instrument? Was that considered important? ANNA: I think it was, especially among the Italians. In our neighborhood, there were mostly Italian families, and there were several that played violin that I know. If they happened to have the piano, somebody would always play the piano. But again, it costs money, and many families could not afford the lessons. In our Melody Maids band, the only Italians -- that were not Italians in the band were -- there were three of us Italian, my two sisters and myself. My sister Lena had her boyfriend, and she didn't want to play with us, so she felt we were too young for her. And she was only a year and a half older, but she didn't want to play with us. So we had another pianist who was very good. But we all played in the high school band. And I didn't play in the band; I played in the orchestra because I played the violin. My sisters both played in the band. One played the sax and one played the drums. And they happened to pick up those instruments because when I was forming my band, I didn't have a sax player and a drum player. So I got the two of them to take lessons and learn our songs quickly. So they did, and they played with us. We had lots of courage, I guess, to get out and play like that. LINDA: Yeah. Did you know of any other girls who [unintelligible - 00:43:40] could play in bands? 18 ANNA: No. That wasn't even in style at that time. They had all boys, you know, they had -- some boys would get together and play in groups. You know, they have jazz bands and things like that, but no girls. I says, well, why not? So we formed the all-girls band. LINDA: What kind of music were you playing? ANNA: Well, our favorites were Glenn Miller songs. It was just the time of Glenn Miller. So we would play many of his songs, and then it was the Polka, "Roll out the Barrel." I don't know if you're familiar with that song. I remember one New Year's Eve; this was all they wanted to hear. The people wanted "Roll out the Barrel," and we had to play it a dozen times. LINDA: Now, did anyone sing? ANNA: Not in our group. No. LINDA: Now, you talk about having money for lessons. Were lessons given at the high school level? ANNA: I took lessons from third grade through high school, and then I didn't take lessons anymore. I gave up playing for about 50 years, and then I got back to it. LINDA: [Unintelligible - 00:44:53] and I hope you want to do that again. But getting back --I don't think that I phrased that question correctly. Did the school's department offer lessons? ANNA: Offer lessons. No. Not that I know of. They probably did, but I don't know. I took lessons from some Joseph Scilano, who is a violinist, and a very good violinist, played with many symphonies in the area. LINDA: So why is it that you chose the violin? ANNA: There was a group, a conservatory that came through the neighborhood to see if there were children in that age group that wanted to take up a violin. And I think that's how it started. I started going to this conservatory for about a year. They would give lessons uptown in Fitchburg, and that's how we started. And a year after that, Joseph Scilano was giving lessons, and he was related to the family too. He was a good friend of ours, and I took lessons from him. 19 LINDA: Yeah. How did you recruit some of these band members? LINDSEY : I put an ad in the paper for an all-girl band, and I received these other three calls for a piano player, the electric guitar, and a trumpet. So it was a good start. It was encouraging to get the girls to answer the ad. LINDA: And then they would join you at your home? ANNA: At my home, right. And we played. Yeah. That was fun. LINDA: I bet. Did anyone every make a tape of you playing? ANNA: No. LINDA: No. ANNA: In fact, one fellow did. He came to the house one time, and he had just got this microphone and he was going to record us. Well, every time someone came to the melody, he would put it on bass. He didn't know who he was recording, and the tape was so awful. He didn't -- he would just pass around from one to the other no matter what we were playing. If we were playing, you know, just an accompaniment, he would record that. So he didn't know what he was doing. But anyway, we don't have that tape. We didn't want it. LINDA: You didn't want it. So tell me about Sundays. I think that Sundays were special days for you and your family. I'm talking about your mom and dad. ANNA: Yes. LINDA: And siblings. ANNA: Yes. It was going to church every Sunday, and Sunday afternoons my father had a bocce court in his backyard, and many of the men from -- his friends would come to our house, and they would play bocce, and this was a favorite game among the Italians. And this would be two or three hours on Sunday afternoon. However, we would always end up going out for a Sunday afternoon ride. My father would take the whole family out for a Sunday afternoon, and before we got home, we would stop and buy three pints of ice cream, which was a special treat in those days. Go home, slice 20 the ice cream boxes, and everybody would have half-pint of ice cream. Half of a pint. LINDA: Wow. ANNA: So that was a special treat. But every Sunday, on Easter Sunday, and then still came up to play bocce, but they would play with hard-boiled eggs. And the one who could play bocce and not get his egg cracked was the winner. So the four daughters would be up on the porch saying, "Pa, are we going for our ride today?" "Yes, we'd go for our ride," and he would have to dismiss the men at one point, and he would take his family out for a ride. It was very special. I think we were the only family on the hill that had a car. So that was quite nice. He needed the car for his work. He always had to carry a truckful of tools with him, and to get to his job he always needed a car. So he always had a car. Every two years he would buy a Chevrolet. And when I was married, he would buy a Chevrolet at Matthew's Garage, and Mr. Matthew knew me through my father, and that was where I had taken the motor car course. So when I was married he had a car for me. This was 1949, and you could not buy cars. I don't know if you recall that. You had to put your name on the list and wait for cars to come in because there was such a demand for cars, you have to [unintelligible - 00:49:55]. So in 1949, he knew I was getting married. So about two weeks before I was married he called and says, "I have a car for you." So that was quite special, and I was working for Judge Duling at that time, and I think my car cost me, like, $800 or $900. It was a nice Chevy. LINDA: Now, was it unusual for you to have your license? ANNA: Yes. It was. Yeah. I worked for Judge Duling, and my father was working building a gas station, very close to the park building and my cousin, [Claude Gimarino], was not working at that time. So he said, 21 "Why don't you and I teach Anna how to drive?" He says, "I'll pick your car up while you're working, she gets out of work," and at that time I'm getting out at four o'clock. He says, "And then we'll be back at five o'clock to give you your car," he would say to my father. So that was arranged. So he gave me a total of three lessons, about three hours, and then he took me out for my driver's license. And I passed. I passed the test. So I had my license immediately, you know. There were no learner's permits at that time. LINDA: And how old were you then? ANNA: I was just working. I must have been 18. It was 1941, so I [unintelligible - 00:51:28] high school and started working for Judge Duling. So I got my license right away. LINDA: Sound like quite the trailblazer in many ways. ANNA: Yeah. So Claude will talk about that now. He said, "My cousin could drive in three hours." LINDA: Now getting back to your parents, did they both speak English? ANNA: My mother spoke broken English, but my father spoke very well. Yeah. I don't recall my father ever having an Italian accent. He spoke very well. LINDA: Now, were they both citizens? ANNA: Yeah. Yes. LINDA: Do you remember hearing of any stories of them going to the American… ANNA: No, I don't. My father, of course, before he was married he was a citizen here because he went into the war. He probably became a citizen very soon after he got to the United States. I haven't been able to find any records on him from Ellis Island. I don't know why, but they don't seem to have his name there at all. They have many Guglielmis, but nothing within their time frame I think he came. I did find some records on my mother, [Carmela Gimarino], but they have the wrong date. They have her coming in 1909 when she was probably 16 years old, and she tells me she came 1919, so her record isn't there either. Not accurate anyway. So I have to do some research on that to see if I can find anything. 22 LINDA: I don't remember what you said, did you check the website? ANNA: Yes, I did. LINDA: You have. And… ANNA: No. I got this wrong information. So I've written to my mother's two sisters in Italy to see if they can tell me anything. And they're -- one of them is in her 90s; the other one is late 80s, so I don't know how much they can tell me. But when I met them in Italy they seemed to be -- they have it all together, so I'm hoping that they can come up with some dates. LINDA: So explain that to me -- the trip to Italy, in what year was that? ANNA: This was in '89. Well, '98. My three sisters and I went to Italy for that express purpose, to meet my aunts, my mother's sisters, and my father's relatives. And this is when we went to Salerno, which is where my aunt lives, my mother's sister, and her other sister lives in Milan, but she was going to visit with her in Salerno during the time that we were there, so we saw both sisters, and they were wonderful. These two sisters are the youngest in the family. My mother was the oldest of the first mother who died at my mother's birth, my mother's. Very soon after my mother was born, her mother died and her father remarried. He had had eight or nine children with his first wife, and he eight or nine children with a second wife. So there are about 18 of them. And now only these two are left, these two sisters. So we met them, and they were a joy to meet. They were wonderful, this 92-year-old, the oldest one, would have her supper and then go out and have her cigarette. The younger sister, who was probably 88, would say, "You're not supposed to be smoking." She says, "It hasn't hurt me for 92 years," she said, "well, why should I stop now?" So she was quite modern. And the other sister was wonderful too, the one that's in her 80s. They have a family out there that I've met, two cousins, you know, are out there, but 23 they're not planning to come to America. Maybe the next generation will. But they all [unintelligible - 00:55:49]. LINDA: Now, did your aunts look like your mother, or did they have any characteristics that were familiar? ANNA: Yeah, they did. One of them, the one in Salerno that I had met probably two years before that when my son Anthony and I went to Bologna for a trade show for our [unintelligible - 00:56:10] business. We went to Bologna. He needed an interpreter, so he thought I would be good to have along there. So I did go with him to Bologna, and then we took the train from there down to Rome and then down to Salerno to meet this aunt, and my son told me, my son thought he was seeing his grandmother all over again, you know. He could see such a resemblance in her to my mother. So that was nice. The other one, too, you can see the family resemblance, but she looked probably more like my grandfather, the old man up on the wall there. Yeah, that's my mother's father. He lived to be in his 90s. My mother had come here in 1919, and she never went back to see him until 1953. All those years. Then she made her first trip back to Italy, and he said at that time, he says, "Now I can die." He says, "I waited for you to come back." And he did. He died. LINDA: [Unintelligible - 00:57:24] ANNA: Yeah. Yeah. He died a few years after that, or a short while after that. LINDA: So did your mother just go back to visit? ANNA: To visit. LINDA: She didn't return to live there? ANNA: No. She just went back to visit her family. LINDA: Did she ever talk about missing her homeland? ANNA: No. I don't think she -- well, she would write to her family, her parents and her -- not her mother, her mother had died. But her father and her sisters and brothers, they would correspond. But there was never a trip, never talked about going back until in '53 when, you know, I was married. All my sisters were married, and she felt she could go back, and she did. 24 There's always a question of priorities. Where is the money going, you know? So in '53 it got to be easier for her when we were all on our own. LINDA: She made the trip by herself? ANNA: Yes, she did. LINDA: So she had only a brother here. So the brother…? ANNA: No. She had more. She had one brother in Fitchburg. But she had another brother in Springfield who had a family out there and we would visit between Quincy, my father's cousin, and Springfield in Massachusetts. We would spend many Sundays going to visit one or the other. Yeah, so they remained close. She also had a sister who lived in Brooklyn, New York, and that wasn't a trip that we made too often but we did make that trip as, you know, six of us in the car, the four girls and my mother and father, we'd go to visit her, the aunt in New York. And she would take a bus and come up to Fitchburg and stay with us for a while. LINDA: Now, I imagine life was very different for the aunts that stayed in Italy compared to here. ANNA: Yes. Yes. LINDA: But I doubt that the aunt living in Brooklyn also had a much different experience. ANNA: A very different experience. She was very modern. We would love it when she would come from New York to visit us, and she would always bring sometime from New York, either some clothes or some scotch. I think it's -- not pantsuit, they were more like pajamas. They started wearing them in New York, and she would come for a summer [unintelligible - 00:59:59] that we would have here in Fitchburg, and she would be dressed with a big hat on, the big sun hat and the pajamas, and she would show up at these outings. I said that's my sister from New York, my mother would say. She would have beautiful jewelry on, you know. She wasn't married at that time. She married later in life. And her husband died in a very sad accident. They had no children. 25 They were both married later in life, but he was working for the trains, and it was 4th of July and his friend who was scheduled to work, said, "It's a holiday. Could you take my place?" because he was going to take his children somewhere. And Aunt Rachel's husband Sal says, "Why, sure. I don't have any children at home." Apparently one train hit another train, and he was caught in-between. So he was decapitated. Very sad. Yeah. So that was the end of their married life. They hadn't been married very long. LINDA: So tell me what kind of person your mother was. ANNA: Well, she stayed at home, always did housework. Always took care of the family; didn't drive. She had twins. I recall many times she would have to go uptown to pay a bill, maybe, and she would have the double carriage with the twins in it, you know, one of these wide carriages. She'd push it all the way uptown, which was a good mile or more, you know, but didn't faze them at all to do that walking. I recall I was going to take my violin lessons, walking more than a mile to go take my lessons. I was given a scholarship when I was in the 8th grade to go to the art museum to take some lessons, and this was on Saturday morning—and that was probably two miles away from my house, or almost two miles—and I would walk on Saturday mornings to go up there and have those lessons, walk back, you know. It didn't faze us at all to do this walking, and -- but then when winter came my mother said I had better stop going to the art museum, so those lessons didn't last too long, so. LINDA: Did your mother have any friends in the neighborhood? ANNA: Yes. They were all friends. Yes. Every house on the hill, we would know them. You know, and many times they would just gather on one another's porch, and most of the times it would be up on our porch because we did have a front porch then, and we were the last house on the hill. They would walk up the hill, and they would gather there. There was a 26 streetlight right across from our house, and all the children would play under that streetlight, hide and seek or anything you could think of that, you know, you could see with the one streetlight. But because there was no traffic, they would just play out there. And as children, all the neighborhood children played together. They all went to the same school because it was their neighborhood school. All belonged to the same parish. So whatever came up as a social event, just have your whole neighborhood doing it, you know. LINDA: So I hear you refer to the neighborhood as "the hill." Did people in Fitchburg refer to it as that? ANNA: It was Belmont Street, and we lived up at the top of the hill. Yeah, it was. It was our hill. And ours was the last house. LINDA: Now, were there a lot of Italian families living in that area? ANNA: Yes. Yes. Everyone in that -- very few other families, there were some. There was on O'Connor family. There was a [Ketteridge] family that I recall, but all the others would be Italian. LINDA: Now, were they basically from the same region? ANNA: No. Somewhere, in fact, they built -- my father built a place anyway. He built the Marconi Club Hall. They called it the Marconi Club because these were people that came from [Le Marche] in Italy. And they all seemed to congregate in this St. Anthony's Parish of Fitchburg in the Water Street, and then coming up the hill they would come up to where the parish, the church, and the school was, which was Salem Street; and then going up the hill a little further you'd come up to where we lived on Belmont Street, and going further on, Hayward Street. But this whole area was Italian area, and this was the Italian parish, and most of the children in the school were Italian. And they formed a Marconi club for the people that came from Le Marche. I think Water Street had another club for people that came from another area also, in Fitchburg. But the Marconi Club was right there behind our church, 27 behind our school, and the people they called the [Marchedioni], they would meet there, they would have all sorts of events there. They would rent the hall out for dances, weddings; wedding receptions would be in this hall. They even had a restaurant, would go in and have their Italian supper, and the club still exists today. Not the club. The clubhouse exists today. I don't think the Marconi Club exists. But it was a place where these people would have picnics. They would -- at least an annual picnic would be up at [Sima] Park, and all the ladies would cook their Sunday specialties or what. It wasn't sandwiches, you know; they would bring their pasta and their chicken or whatever they were going to cook for Sunday dinner, and they would go eat outdoors at the Sima Park. They would have a band up there. They would have dancing. There was just a day out for that whole group that belonged to the Marconi Club. LINDA: What does Marconi refer to? ANNA: Guglielmo Marconi, who invented radio, the wireless. In fact, all the wireless things we use today probably originated from the first wireless, and they called it Marconi in honor of Guglielmo Marconi. LINDA: He was obviously from this Le Marche region? ANNA: Yes. I think so. I'm not sure if he was, but he was from Italy. LINDA: There's a beach on Cape Cod, Marconi Beach. ANNA: Marconi Beach. Yes. LINDA: And that's named after him. ANNA: After Guglielmo Marconi? LINDA: Mm-hmm. I wanted to talk about the boundaries of neighborhoods, let's say, in Fitchburg. Was there ever a period of time where people didn't get along with each other depending on where they lived or what ethnic group they were? ANNA: I don't think -- it wasn't that they didn't get along with each other. I think they felt closer to the ones that came from their own region. But I can't 28 recall, you know, anyone being looked down on. I think if there was any group that was looked down on, it might have been the Sicilians. At that time, they probably felt, you know, he's a Sicilian. But tenant that I spoke of that lived in our house was a Sicilian, and he was a wonderful person. But I don't think anyone, you know, had any hard feelings, or it was -- you're closer to your own region but friendly with the others too. LINDA: It seems like these neighborhood clubs or these region clubs helped bring people together? ANNA: Yes. LINDA: Did the parish also do this? ANNA: Yes. The parish did. The parish had societies for women, for men, for their unmarried women, from the time they made their first communion, which would probably be seven or eight years old, up until the time they married they belonged to the Children of Mary Society. Once they married they joined the Our Lady of Marcomo Society. And the men always had the Sacred Heart Society for the men. Then once the kids get into high school, they would have the Catholic Youth Organization, and they would have functions to keep them, you know, which, you know, many parishes today don't have that. They may have a society or a men's group, but I think the youth are probably more reliant on schools, on their high school, to have group activities rather than the parish. Maybe because the shortage of priests, no time, you know, that could be it. I know our parish today doesn't have anything for youth. LINDA: And what is your parish today? ANNA: St. Anna's Parish here in Leominster. They do have the ladies group, and they do have the men's group, men's club. LINDA: Now growing up though, you belonged to St. Anthony's. ANNA: St. Anthony's in Fitchburg. Yes. And I belonged to The Children of Mary's [unintelligible - 01:10:10] until I married. 29 LINDA: So what kinds of things would you do as part of the…? ANNA: There would be picnics. There would be outings. We would form a group to go to an amusement park. In the winter we would go skating. Probably get a group to go up to near a lake at [Cod Shaw Park], and even younger than the Catholic youth, when you were in the earlier years, the summer activities were keyed around the parish. We had the Venerini nuns there, and the girls would go up there to learn how to do embroidery or cutwork or crochet, any of that work. When the youngsters would go on what they call the [asilo], the kindergarten, and they would learn the, you know, writing and songs or how to write their name, things like that. But this is like a summer school so you didn't look for other things to do in the summer. Your family planned your going to the convent and take these lessons. LINDA: Now, who would teach the lessons? ANNA: The nuns, the Venerini sisters. LINDA: The Venerini sisters. ANNA: Yeah. Yeah. LINDA: Now, are they still present? Do they still have a presence in…? ANNA: Yes, they do. They do. Yes. They -- some of them. I don't know if they still teach, but they did teach at St. Anna's School. We don't have any nuns there now. And they did teach at St. Anthony's School, and they might have one or two nuns teaching there now. But there is a shortage of nuns, too. Yeah. I think now we have two Venerini nuns that are working with the Beacon of Hope here in Leominster, which is a respite care for challenged adults, I think they call them, and mentally retarded. The two nuns take them for outings. Take them to games, take them on swimming in the summertime, and they try to give the families some free 30 time, you know, because it's a constant 24-hour care, you know, you have to -- they need that attention, and they need the activities too. So they take them to dances and to suppers, and they invite them to play games. So, two nuns are doing that here in Leominster. They have their mother house in Fitchburg on Prospect Street, and I'm not sure what activities they have there. I think they're still quite active. They're certainly active in ministry, in teaching religious education, in visiting nursing homes, things like that. LINDA: Okay. So what are the values that you grew up with and you tried to keep those traditions? ANNA: Yes. Our family, my mother, father, the four children, always went to Mass on Sundays. Holy days and Sundays. It was a family thing. We would go to Mass all together. And I did that with my family, too. You know, we'd go to Mass all together as they were growing up. Now, they go on their own. They go. They don't go. They, you know, but some of my family are still keeping that up with their own children, Mass every Sunday and holy days. Some of them break away which is sad, you know. It's sad to have that happen, but you hope that they will get back. But faith and family was foremost in my mother and father's time than it was in my time and my husband's time. Education was very important, and I always feel that you never get enough education. Even if you have a college degree I feel, you know, get more because there's so much out there, you know. If it isn't in the college. It's other things that you can learn, you know, in the arts and music and things like that. There's so much. And don't ever feel that there's a limit to what your brain can absorb. You know, I think if you can do it, this is the time to do it while you're still young enough to do it, you know. LINDA: What kinds of messages do you try to send to your grandchildren? ANNA: That faith -- I write a newsletter every week. I think I'm over, like, 112th newsletter that I've written, so it goes over a two-year period now. LINDA: And this is a family newsletter?31 ANNA: A family newsletter, and I send it to all five families. My children. And I always try to put a message in there—birthdays are coming up, it's a family affair, you know, and if someone had accomplished something, like this week my granddaughter, Laura, got the MVP in soccer. She's a sophomore in high school. So she got the MVP. So I sent that in my newsletter and let everyone know. And if someone has played football and is, you know, scored a touchdown, I tell them that. I always tell them what's going on at church. I always try to bring something in that has to do with faith, you know, and values, you know. Things that you look for, you know, and things that would be good for them to do. And they're very young. The grandchildren, I think, always looks forward to that letter. In fact, if I should mail it one day too late, they're, "Where is it?" you know. If the mail is one day too late in arriving, they look for it. And I try to keep them abreast of what is happening in the family because they're all so busy that they don't communicate like they did when they were younger, you know. They see each other quite often, but now, one has a game and the other one is going somewhere, and now one family lives in New York, so. But they're doing -- I like to help the others here in Leominster what's going on. LINDA: Did you ever foresee that? ANNA: No. To write a newsletter? LINDA: Not just that, but that your family would be so widespread and so busy that you had to write a newsletter to keep up. ANNA: To keep up. Right. Yeah. No. But I think it was bound to happen, because the two boys are now running the two businesses, and they're as busy as they can be. And my daughter has her own little business, my daughter, Rose Mary, which is just a small phase of the comb business. She has the side combs, the decorative combs that they use in their hair, 32 bridal salons, especially. And my daughter Mary Ann is in real estate, and she is busy with that. And the grandchildren, living in different parts of the city, go to different schools, so they don't see each other as often. And of course, the one in New York comes out for holidays usually. If the children have an extra day off from school, they'll make a trip, or we can get out there, we visit them. But they also -- they look forward to the newsletter. And as long as they like it, I'll keep writing it, you know. LINDA: I think it's a wonderful idea. ANNA: Yeah. LINDA: What do you think your parents would think of the new generation? [Unintelligible - 01:18:43] ANNA: Yes. I think they would say that it certainly is different. At that time, they'd go to school, they'd come home from school, and mother and father would be at home at supper time, and mother would be at home all the time. But we didn't have the cars that they have nowadays, so any activities would be within your area. You had to walk to it. Now it's from Leominster you can get to Worcester in no time. You can get to Boston. Drive to New York. So I think they would say times have changed. LINDA: You think they'd be happy about it? ANNA: Yes. I think they would because it seems to be better. We have more opportunities, but it's, you know, I hope it is better. Sometimes they have too much and they appreciate less. If you can get everything, you know, nothing means too much to you. AT/pa/my/mfb/es

Transcript of an oral history interview with Robert William Christie, conducted by Jennifer Payne on 21 November 2013, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Dr. Robert W. Christie matriculated at Norwich University in 1940, the youngest member of his class. Although he is an alumnus of the class of 1944, he did not graduate until 1947 due to service in World War II. Dr. Christie received his M. D. from SUNY College of Medicine in 1951. He practiced medicine in Northfield, Vermont, 1952-1954, then specialized in pathology and practiced as a pathologist at seven hospitals in northern New Hampshire and Vermont. He discusses his experiences in the military as well as at Norwich University and as a physician in his interview. ; 1 Robert W. Christie, NU '44, Oral History Interview November 21, 2013 At the Kendal at Hanover Continuing Care Retirement Community 80 Lyme Rd, Hanover, NH 03755 Interviewed by Jennifer Payne JENNIFER PAYNE: This is Jennifer Payne with the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. Today's date is November 21st, 2013, and I am with Robert W. Christie—class of '44—and we are at Kendal at Hanover Continuing Care Community at 80 Lyme Rd. in Hanover, New Hampshire. Thank you, Dr. Christie for agreeing to be with us today and to do an oral history. ROBERT W. CHRISTIE: Thank you Jennifer. It's a pleasure and, I believe, a privilege to be able to do this. I've called a few things that I've written to augment this oral history, and I'll start off with the Independence Day celebration address that I delivered at the Dartmouth College Green in Hanover, New Hampshire on July 4th, 2012. JP: Thank you. RC: "I believe I was asked to speak here today because I am one of the contributors to—as well as one of the editors of—Kendal at Hanover's recent book of memoirs, "World War II Remembered". My comments will be about some local history, some personal history, some family history, and a few beliefs that I hope you may find to be of interest, and perhaps even instructive. I will conclude by offering you a challenge. (break in audio) JP: -- now. OK. RC: I will conclude by offering you a challenge. First, the local history. My alma mater is Norwich University, the country's oldest private military college, which was founded in 1819 right across the Connecticut River in Norwich, Vermont. Its initial enrollment, as I recall, was 17 male cadets. Captain Alden Partridge, its founder, attended Dartmouth and later became superintendent of the US military academy at West Point. Partridge, an American education visionary, believed that Norwich University's graduates should be trained to lead in times of 2 peace, as well as in times of war. The concept of land-grant colleges, and ultimately the nation's reserve officers' training program—ROTC—were founded at Norwich University. The first land-grant college bill was introduced by Representative Justin Smith Morrill of Vermont in 1857—using Norwich University as a model and prototype—and was enacted into law in 1862. The mission of these institutions, which include Cornell University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, as set forth in the 1862, was to focus on the teaching of practical agriculture, science, military science, and engineering—without excluding classical studies. I might add here that, during the Civil War, many of the Confederate Army officers were West Pointers—were West Point graduates, who had defected to the Confederacy, and many others were from the numerous state-supported military schools and colleges scattered throughout the South at that time. The Citadel and VMI are two examples. The only source of professionally trained officers in the Union army in the Civil War were graduates of West Point and Norwich University. Norwich University now resides in Northfield, Vermont, following a disastrous fire in 1866. An apocryphal tale has it that the university's old south barracks burned to the ground as an act of arson by Dartmouth College students who were intensely jealous of the attention Norwich's men in uniform were getting from the local young ladies. Since 1972, Norwich has been --" (break in audio) RC: "--teen-seventy-two Norwich has been co-ed—the first military college to become so. It now has an enrollment of over 2,000, including both cadets and civilian students. Last year, as I recall, the highest ranking cadet regimental officer, and one or two of the battalion commanders, were women." (break in audio) RC: I think I was a trustee during that time at Norwich, and I might have been involved in the discussions about integrating women into the Norwich family. So -- JP: That would be fascinating.3 RC: OK. Go back to. JP: Sure. Yeah. RC: "Next, some personal history. I spent eight years in the military. Three in horse cavalry ROTC at Norwich, and as an enlisted man and commissioned officer in the US Army. Horse cavalry had become obsolete, and I ended up in armor—tanks. My military occupational specialty—MOS—was tank unit commander. My military experience overseas in World War II was in the ETO—the European Theatre of Operations. I joined the 33rd Armored Regiment of the Third Armored Division. At the beginning, the Ardennes offensive—the so-called "Battle of the Bulge". The Third Armored Division was the spearhead of the First Army. My combat service was as its tank platoon leader, and eventually the company commander in a medium tank battalion. My promotion to company commander had much to do with fate, luck, and the attrition—300%—in men and equipment that the Third Armored Division experienced. From its going ashore in Normandy, until the end of the war. I moved up in command as my company's more senior officers were killed, wounded, or rotated. (break in audio) RC: "and a result of the attrition—300%—in men and equipment, that the Third Armored Division experienced. From its going ashore in Normandy, until the end of the war. I moved up in command as my company's more senior officers were killed or wounded. When the war ended at the Elbe River in Germany, we met the Russians, who had just arrived at the other side of that river. My survival and presence here today has a lot to do with my following one of Murphy's rules of combat: 'Never follow anyone braver than yourself.' Unless, of course, my company's orders from the battalion headquarters were taking that next objective, move out. I never felt brave or heroic. I just followed orders and trusted that I would somehow survive. It never really occurred to me emotionally that I would be killed. Now, some family history. On my mother's side of the family, my great-great-great-Grandfather, Johnathon Hildrith was a captain in the militia raised in Chesterfield, New Hampshire, and fought in the Revolutionary War's Battle of 4 Bennington in 1777 [sic]. I guess that makes me a son of the American Revolution—comparable to the Daughters of the American Revolution, whose name is much more familiar than the sons'. My great-Grandfather, on my father's side, George H. Weeks, was a sergeant promoted to first lieutenant in the Union army in the Civil War. American Civil War records show that as a member of the New York 115th infantry regiment, over his three years of service, he fought in 57 battles and scrimmages in Maryland, at Harpers Ferry, and Fredericksburg, Virginia—as well as in Florida, North Carolina, and Maryland. My father, George R. Christie, who's trained as a pilot and commissioned as a second lieutenant in the army's fledgling Air Corps in 1917—18. His memoir, "Wooden Props and Canvas Wings" tells, with humor and candor, what that experience and learning to fly was like in World War I. My younger brother, George R. Christie, Jr., enlisted in the army and was a parachute infantryman, AKA paratrooper. But fortunately, he did not have to serve in combat because Japan surrendered and World War II ended. He did, however, have to jump out of moving airplanes while in the air. And here are some of my beliefs. Perhaps my family history has led you to think that I am a hardcore, super patriotic, militarist by family tradition. Far from it. I found out firsthand what war was like, and I would like to see it disappear from the face of the Earth. But I fear it will not. I suspect war is built into the genome of the third chimpanzee. That's us, as Jared Diamond has characterized Homo sapiens in his book of that title, "The Third Chimpanzee". Anthropologist Jane Goodall describes troops of lower world-order chimpanzees systematically annihilating other troops whose territory they've coveted. Will and Ariel Durant, authors of the 11-volume, "The Story of Civilization" followed it in 1968 with a concise summary book, "The Lessons of History". I reread that 117-page book every New Year's Day. The Durants' chapter on war is not encouraging. Here is a quote: 'In the 3,421 years of recorded history, only 268 have seen no war.' Now, in 2012, you can add on another 44 years, and make that 268 out of 3,465 years. 5 Here are eight things that I believe to be true. War and religion are the two great constants in civilization's history. In our time, overpopulation of the Earth is a fundamental cause of most of the world's problems, especially war. Human ignorance, greed, religious conflicts, and weapons of mass destruction come next. In that order. If a country does not adapt, and prepare for war imaginatively and continually, others who have so prepared, will overcome it. The British were slow to find that out during our Revolutionary War when the colonials used the ungentlemanly tactics of guerrilla warfare over a period of seven years, to force the British to surrender. Number four, terrorists and drones are now the guerrilla equivalence of 21st century warfare. Number five, in warfare, science prevails. Prayer vigils and marches for peace, unfortunately, have not been shown to be effective. The world's acknowledgement of the overwhelming military and economic power of the United States is what has prevented, so far, another world conflict. Number six, American democracy—based, perhaps, on its Anglo-Saxon beginnings in English with the Magna Carta—shines as a beacon of hope to the rest of the world. Number seven, democracy cannot be exported. It has to arise from within a people, as did ours here in the United States. And number eight, our democracy along with liberty, must not be taken for granted. It must be nurtured, defended, and—when necessary—fought for when others threaten. So I am an unapologetic patriot, staunch believer in liberty, our constitution, and our way of government—with all its flaws. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis stated, 'Our country's founders believed liberty to be the secret of happiness, and courage to be the secret of liberty.' So here's my challenge to you. On this day of celebration of our independence, for which so many Americans before us have given their lives—I challenge each of you to carry in your heart that secret of happiness. The flame of liberty. And to accept the responsibility and courage to preserve and hold high the torch that carries that flame. May God bless each of you. May God bless our independence. May God continue to bless America." So that's the end of that. RC: I almost flunked out of OCS because my voice projection was inadequate in the eyes—or ears—of "Natty Bumppo" who was the "Tac Officer" for our class at OCS at Fort Knox. And he told 6 me he was going to wash me out if I didn't improve, and he gave me a week to improve my voice as I spoke—that I would use in commanding troops. So I did. Very carefully, I went out behind the barracks and talked loudly and focused and so on. And so, a week later, he had me take charge of the company—the OCS company that I was in—and had me lead them on the parade ground by giving voice commands of which way to turn, where to stop, so on. Incidentally, as a footnote, my father almost flunked out of flight school at Cornell—pre-flight school—because—for the same reason—he was not giving commands loudly enough! And as a result, he had to, once again, command his troops on the parade ground. And during that exercise, he managed to march them into the side of the barracks. Which again, almost flunked him out of OCS. But my father was survivor, and he survived that, too, and went on and graduated from the pre-flight training, and went on to learn to fly in Arkansas. JP: Oh, my. So, where were you born? RC: I was born in Mineola, New York. My father said that the hospital in Mineola was in Nassau County on Long Island, and my mother was supposed to have a delivery date—which had passed by—and so, they got out in the car and drove around in the hopes that driving around would stimulate labor. And they were going through Mineola, and she started to have labor pains, so they drove right up to the hospital, and there she stayed until she underwent the delivery. So that's why I was born in Mineola, New York. But both my parents were New York City folk for generations. And I actually lived in New York from time to time, and—but most of my boyhood, and going up to public high school, was in Freeport, New York—which is also on Long Island. But the—when people ask me where I'm from, I always tell them I'm a New Yorker because I really feel I have that accent—and I just feel like that was where I came from. OK? JP: Yes. That's great. Why did you—how did you decide on Norwich? RC: Well, that's an interesting question. Actually I didn't decide. My father decided. My father was an employee of the Standard Oil Company of New York all his life. And he moved up in the ranks—so to speak—and it was the—talking to some of the—of his colleagues in the fuel oil 7 division. And he said, you know my son is thinking about going to college. Do you guys—you're all college graduates—do you have any suggestions to give me? Because I never graduated from college and my wife never graduated from college. And so, we don't know where to start. So, one of the guys during this conversation happened to be a Norwich trustee. And he said, George, I know just where your son should go. And he said, Norwich University. It's a beautiful location up in Vermont. It's a wonderful school. I'm a graduate myself, and he should go there. And my father said, well you know, I've been thinking about seeing whether I could get Bob into West Point, but I don't have any political connections—and he just went to a public high school, and wasn't a particularly outstanding student, so I don't think that will ever happen. And this other fellow—whose name was [Fred Coburn?] [00:21:46] a Norwich trustee—said, well you'll get the same kind of training at Norwich that you would have gotten at West Point. And he said, you know, I think that we can agree there's a war coming. This was back in 1940. And you've been in the army, you know that officers are treated better than enlisted men in the service, and when he finishes his experience at Norwich, he'll be commissioned a second lieutenant from the ROTC. So my father came home and told me the story, and said, that's where I think you ought to go. I was a good boy. I always followed what my mother and father told me to do. So I said, OK, Dad. And he said, I'll write the checks and we'll go up there when we find out whether you've been accepted or not. And sure enough, I was accepted readily. Because getting into Norwich was not a problem in those days—there were very few applicants, as it turned out—and they, Norwich, was really very happy to have anybody show up who wanted to go to Norwich. So I never set foot on the Norwich campus until the day my mother and father drove me up to Northfield, Vermont. And neither of them had ever been in Vermont themselves. They dropped me off at the parade ground. I gave them a big hug, and they drove off, and I never saw them again on that particular location until my graduation seven years later in 1947. After the war. So, that was my introduction to Norwich University. JP: And your major was a chemistry—you were a chemistry major --8 RC: Well, yeah. That's another story. I said, "Pop, you know, I don't know anything about college. How do you know what kind of courses to take?" And he said, "Well, you know, son, the chemists in this company do exceptionally well. And he said that they're well paid and they have interesting job. Why don't you take courses in chemistry?" That's how I became a chem major. I wasn't an outstanding high school chemistry student, but my father told me it was a good idea. So, being a good boy. And incidentally, I was the youngest man—next to the youngest man in my class of 1944, when I matriculated. Gerry Collins was the only one who was a few weeks younger than I was, and we were both 16-years old. JP: You were 16. You graduated from high school and were at Norwich at 16? RC: Well, and that's another story in itself because my whole career at Norwich—in those first three years before I went into the service—I was just not of the same mindset of the rest of my classmates. They were one year older, one year more experienced, been out with more girls, done more things, and so on. And I just felt—and I really actually was—kind of a misfit. And I always was a—you know—I wasn't a momma's boy, or a daddy's boy, but I always was a—I followed what my family told me to do. And that wasn't what most of my classmates experienced, I bet. And so—and that feeling dogged me through the first three years of college, and I did not terribly enjoy Norwich as a cadet—for that reason. I didn't realize it at the time, but when I got back, and put in my final year—after having been in the army, been through the war, and all of my classmates at that time—I caught up with them. Let me leave it at that. I felt very comfortable my senior year, when I was at Norwich. The first three years, they were not good years for me. JP: Oh. Did you join a fraternity? RC: Because I was a social misfit, I was never invited to enjoy the privilege of being tapped for a fraternity. It was only when I came back to Norwich, as a veteran, that—over at Theta Chi—which started at Norwich University – they invited me to come and join the fraternity. A lot of my friends were there, so I did. So that's my fraternity history.9 JP: But you were—you were editor of the "Guidon"? RC: Well, I would have been—in my senior year—I had worked up from the reporter, to assistant managing editor, to managing editor, and I was actually putting down—putting the newspaper together—the "Guidon"—and I used to go down to John Mazuzan's office. He was a Norwich graduate, and he published the "Northfield News"—the Northfield newspaper—and I used to set type down in his printshop for the headlines of the next issue of the "Guidon". So that's really—I think—where I got hooked on writing, publishing, editing—which exist through—have existed through my lifetime. JP: You've written five books, at least? RC: Yeah. JP: Yeah. So, I was going to ask what you did to relax. But you didn't—didn't really -- RC: Well, that's another story. At Norwich, in those days, you didn't relax. I mean, if you were an engineer major—civil, electrical, whatever, mechanical—or you were a chem major—you had lab every afternoon, except those afternoons when you were on the parade ground, or down at the riding hall. And there was no free time. And you went to bed at taps, you got up at reveille, and you didn't relax. It was go, go, go. But, you know, for a kid my age—a teenager—that was life. And this is what you did when you went to a military college. I didn't know any different. JP: My gosh. What was your least favorite class at Norwich? RC: Well, if you were a chem major, you had to take scientific German. Not something you learn to speak, but you had to read—learn to read German. The reason being—purported reason—was that so much of the chemical—chemistry literature at that time, was written in German. Because all of the chemistry research was going on in Germany in the early 19—late 19th—early 20th—and throughout the 20th century. So if you wanted to be a chemist, and you wanted to be able to read the chem literature, you needed to be able to read German. And I didn't enjoy that at all. And also, I must say, that it wasn't all bad. Because, having been in Germany afterward—and having some familiarity with the language—and not having learned it to speak, or really 10 understand it as it's spoken, but to only to read and to write—it was helpful to me, because I ended up as a—in the Constabulary—which, incidentally, General Harmon was the commanding general of—after the war—the Third Armored Division became morphed into the Constabulary—which was essentially a state police organization—and we were training new recruits coming overseas to be, essentially, state police officers—rather than people going out killing people, which is what we were originally trained to do, and what we actually did during the war. So I got to know German well enough. It was called Schlafzimmer Deutsch—Bedroom Deutsch. I think you get the connection. And so you get to use a lot of the language necessary to get along. And my job, as a troop commander in the Constabulary in the city of Ulm was to run the city through the Bürgermeister, the mayor. And so the Bürgermeister used to come to me every morning to get his orders of what the Constabulary wanted him to be doing or not doing. And so, you know, I had to carry on a conversation with him, and he spoke some English and I spoke some Deutsch, and we were able to communicate. So this course that I took at Norwich was not completely lost. JP: You may not have enjoyed it at the time, but -- RC: No. JP: Was there -- RC: But that's true of so many things in life, you know? You just never know how things are going to be useful, not useful—you regret them, you enjoy them later on—never realizing how important they might be in your life. Incidentally, I notice that I'm dropping my voice at the end of—do I don't know whether that's not coming through well. JP: You're still—when you talk, it goes up to the orange, so—mine isn't—let's see—upped it a little bit. I'll keep an eye on it, but you're looking—looking good. RC: You mean, I'm hearing good.11 JP: Yes. Yeah. Well, I look at this, and as long as you go in—up to the orange—you're fine. We don't want you in the red a lot, because then it could clip—although I've never had that happen—but so far, so good. Was there a favorite instructor at Norwich who you had? RC: Well, I had two—three. Perley Baker1 who was a professor of chemistry. Shorty Hamilton2 who was next in command. They had both been in the—in World War I, and they had been in the chemical warfare departments. And I liked them both. Absolutely different personality. Perley Baker stood up straight, was well-dressed, uniform, trousers creased, so on. Shorty Hamilton was a bit of a slob, if I may say so—very relaxed—very laid back, Vermont-type personality. And we all were respectful of Perley Baker, but we all enjoyed the presence of Shorty Hamilton. I'll put it that way. And if you had a problem, you'd enjoy talking to Shorty rather than Perley. That does not mean that we didn't think a lot of Perley. The third guy—I've forgotten his first name—his last name was Taylor.3 He was a civilian. He was very uncomfortable in uniform. I think he was at Norwich as an instructor in English because somehow he thought he might not have to go into the real service if he was a professor at Norwich. Anyhow, it didn't turn out that way because Norwich closed, and I don't know where he went. Never—but he taught English. And I loved that course. That's where, incidentally, the term "Natty Bumppo" came from because some of the readings that I did were Nathaniel Hawthorne.4 And it may not have been American history that he taught. It might have been teaching American literature—I think that was it—and we did a lot of reading of American literature. And I really enjoyed that. And I realized—I've realized, latterly in my life, that I should have been an English major, not a chem major. But, you know, I was on the Dean's List all the time, so it wasn't completely lost. JP: For the audience, can you explain who Natty Bumppo is? For those not familiar. 1 Perley Dustin Baker, Professor of Chemistry 2 Harold Chapman Hamilton, Professor of Chemistry 3 Ralph Carlyle Taylor, Assistant Professor of English 4 Natty Bumpo is the protagonist of James Fenimore Cooper's Leatherstocking Tales.12 RC: Natty Bumppo was a comical character in Nathaniel Hawthorne. I've forgotten all the details, but if we can break right now -- (break in audio) JP: And we're back with Dr. Christie. So, let me ask you. Do you remember any funny stories about life or people at Norwich? RC: Well, after so many years, it's hard to recall. But one funny story that I actually described in a publication here at Kendal, was a small essay called "Life's Darkest Moment" or "The Day I Goosed Shorty Hamilton". So I'm going to read this little essay. "It was one of those Tuesday or Thursday afternoons when all those of my classmates majoring in liberal arts were either back in their barracks doing Chinese infantry drill, i.e., sacked out, or walking towards around the upper parade of Norwich University to work off excess demerits, or sweating on an athletic field for some jock team. The sophomore chemistry majors—guys like myself—were doing the lab exercise requisite to quantitative—or maybe it was qualitative—analysis, down in the dingy basement labs of Dodge Hall. Major Shorty Hamilton—his real first name, I believe, is Harold, but I'm not sure. Major Shorty Hamilton and Lieutenant Perley Baker were the two professors staffing the chemistry department. Both had graduated from Norwich, and both had served in the US Army. Each was rather austere. Perley always looked spit-and-polish military, with his neatly trimmed mustache, the bright silver leaves on one side of his cocky blouse's lapel, and cross-flasks of the army's chemical warfare department on the other. And a Sam Brown belt tightly buckled over his upper torso. I always felt that he was the very essence of a Norwich faculty member. "Shorty" was what cadets called Major Hamilton when he wasn't within earshot. My recollection is that his first name was Harold, but the years have dulled my memory. Shorty was a bit more—no, a lot more—casual in his appearance than Lieutenant Colonel Baker. His was the appearance of a college professor who dressed as casually in his military uniform as regulations would permit. His uniform did not seem to have been tailored for him, but rather for Ichabod Crane. And although he was clean-shaven, he always looked a bit scruffy. Shorty was at 13 least six-foot six, and perhaps even taller. The only other person on the entire hill who was equally tall was my across-the-hall chemistry major classmate in my barracks, Jim Lombard. 5 [00:40:45] Jim always looked a day late and a dollar short, and a dead ringer for Shorty when viewed from behind. Well, the lab on this particular afternoon wore on, and there were those frequent intervals when certain laboratory maneuvers—such as filtering in a solution—consumed time that could not be usefully employed on much else except poring over the lab manual to make sure you had it right, checking your neighbors' experiments for reassurance that you were not doing the wrong one, or even light horsing around to make time pass until a liquid in the funnel made its leisurely way through the Whatman filter and into the flask below. It was this last interval of waiting that lead to my downfall. (break in audio) RC: Since there were only uncomfortably high stools on which to perch while working at the bench, we often stood up and leaned on our elbows with our heads down over the manuals, trying to appear busy studying. To protect our uniforms from misdirected reagents, we wore long wrap-around aprons, and thus, one man's back looked very much like another's. In one of the intervals of waiting for things to happen chemically, I noticed Jim's derrière sticking far out, as it always did when he bent over the bench across the aisle from my own—a consequence of his long torso. The opportunity was more than an 18-year old could resist at the moment. I had hardly swung an extended thumb at the end of my looping right arm at the inviting target. I connected this maneuver with a resounding thump that almost lifted Jim off the floor. Or at least I had thought it was Jim. Of course, it wasn't. It was Major Hamilton. No cadet could ever have been more embarrassed than I was at that suspended moment. Although greatly surprised by this assault from behind, Shorty slowly drew himself up to his full height, and looked around to see the perpetrator of this bold and unseemly attack. His eyes centered on me through his steel-rimmed glasses, since I was the obvious culprit. I stammered, 'I'm sorry, sir. I mistook you for someone 5 James E. Lombard14 else.' I didn't know what else to do, pass gas or wind my watch. The then current colloquial military aphorism appropriate for such extreme circumstances of mortification. The professor said not a word, but rather turned around and assumed his former position leaning over the bench top next to him. Of course, I expected to suffer some terrible fate as a result of this misadventure, but none occurred. No demerits, no report to the commandant of cadets, no invitation to discuss the matter further in the privacy of Shorty's office. Nothing at all happened. But in a bleak, and laconic reference to the events came eleven years later. I was practicing general medicine in Northfield, Vermont where Norwich University is situated. Shorty, now retired from the faculty, came into my office as a new patient. Not having seen each other since my college days, we greeted one another warmly, and made some small talk as I addressed his relatively simple medical problem, which was easily solved. As was the custom in civility in those days, Shorty thanked me for my ministration, but then, on his way out—and halfway through the door—he turned, and with a broad smile, said wryly, 'You know doctor, when I heard that you had become a physician, I thought that you would have specialized in proctology.'" JP: That's a good story. RC: Well, it's kind of unique to Norwich. JP: It certainly is. And well told—well told. Gosh. How did your training prepare you for your work life? RC: Well, I can't really say that my training at Norwich prepared me for what I ultimately did with my life. And my life experiences have been so varied, and I've done so many different things at so many times, for so many different reasons, it's hard to say that I was really prepared through anything that I learned at Norwich. Except a certain attitude about—I would say—responsibility and leadership. JP: What about both of those? What is it about responsibility? RC: Well, Norwich—as you know—attempts to train people as leaders. And one of the things that you learn as a leader, is that you're responsible for the people that are under your command. And 15 since I was a corporal—promoted to corporal my sophomore year, I had a squad of cadets that I was responsible for. And learned that—also when I was down in the barn—the stables of course, is what they were called—my first responsibility was to my horse, before myself. The horse got watered, the horse got fed, the horse got groomed, before I took care of my own needs. So, I think those little things probably inculcated into my personality the importance of responsibility. JP: So you are the class agent for your class and—do you—you stay in touch with some of your classmates? RC: Well, I've stayed in touch with as many of my classmates as I was able to. The class agent before me was a fellow named Al Lockard6—good friend, a Theta Chi—and he, unfortunately, died suddenly after having both of his hips replaced. And while he was working out in post-op therapy, had a pulmonary embolism and died. And the irony is that before his operations, he and I had either spoken or corresponded. And I said, you know, Al, I would never have two major operations like that done at the same time because complications of being on an operating table for that protracted period is an additional hazard. He said, yeah, I know, but the physical therapy afterward—I don't want to go through that twice. So that's why I'm having both done. I said, OK, boy. And that was it. And sure enough, he had what I had predicted, unfortunately—a sudden, severe complications. So I took over from him as class agent. And that was many years ago. JP: You have correspondence in the archives between you and Perry Swirsky. How many years did you guys correspond? RC: Well, that's an interesting question. Perry and I were roommates during my junior year. Perry and I had entirely different personalities. He was a Jew. He had entirely different life experiences from my own—had grown up in Springfield, Massachusetts. His father was a banker. He owned and operated a chain of furniture stores, and he was very well-off. And I didn't have any contact with him at all after OCS because at OCS—when we graduated, we 6 Alan T Lockard16 spread to the winds. He went to Sicily and Italy as a tank unit commander. I went to France, Belgium, and Germany as a tank unit commander. And so, we just lost contact with each other. And he hated Norwich. I mean, I didn't have a terribly great experience my first three years, but he hated them. First of all, he was one of only two Jews in my class. And he never really integrated with the class, and as a result, he felt like a loner and an outsider. And I, in my own way, also had those same feelings—for reasons I've already explained. I was too young, and hadn't had enough of the experiences my classmates had had, and I always felt as—to be—in a way, a loner—and out of sync. So anyhow, that might have had something to do with the reason that we linked up as roommates during our junior year. Perry—if I may diverge—was a very interesting guy. Somewhere I have recorded—or recounted—the fact that there were two members of my class that I know were awarded silver stars during World War II. Perry was one of them, and another one whose name will occur to me in a moment—I'm having a senior moment—also was awarded a silver star at Bastogne during the Bulge in Belgium. Anyhow, back to Perry. Perry was a platoon leader in a brigade that was assigned to an Italian tank division. And the relationship between the American units and the Italian units was—according to Swirsky—pretty ad hoc. So he was commanded one day to take his platoon and to take the hill that this Italian major pointed out to him. And he said, when you get up there, hold your ground and don't leave for any reason. And we'll be up to relieve you. So Perry did just that. And on his way up, he was literally killing Italians and Germans who were on that hill. And then, because he couldn't stand the thought of running his tank over a possibly wounded soldier—or even a dead one—he jumped out of his tank and was taking these bodies—living or dead—out of the way of his tanks and his platoon, as he went up this hill under fire. And then he held out at the top against a counter attack, which he and his platoon repelled. And then he found himself stranded. Nobody ever came to relieve him. So, after a while, he got his guys together and took them back down the hill. And he said, the Italians forgot he was there. He said, I didn't do anything heroic, but I guess somebody thought it was worth a silver star, so that's what happened 17 to me. Well, anyhow, that's a story that I don't think has been told enough times. But just the idea that he's jumping out of his tank, under fire, to take wounded soldiers out of the way, so he wouldn't run over them. I mean, the mindset—the moral—whatever it is inside him to make him want to do that—or need to do that. But that's the kind of guy Perry was. Anyhow, at our 50th Norwich reunion, Perry and I got together again. He was awarded the Distance Cup for the guy who had traveled the furthest distance to come back to reunion. He had come from Israel. So that sort of cemented his relationship, I think, with his alma mater. Which had waned from a very weak beginning. But anyhow, he came back to his 50th. And he came and stayed at my home in Lancaster, New Hampshire after the reunion. And we really got to know each other, and our wives had a good time. And then I kept in contact with Perry, and he invited me to join him—he and his wife Betty were going to London for a week—and he said, why don't you come over and join us? So I said, OK. My wife, Connie, wasn't interested in going. So I flew over and met Perry at the hotel that he had suggested, and I went to check in, and I found out I was already checked in and my bill was paid in advance. So Perry and Betty and I had a ball for a week. We went to the theatre, we did everything. And, you know, after that it once again cemented our relationship. And then we started to write by cursive letters, then typewriters, then I started to send emails—and he didn't have a computer—and I got on his butt a little bit and told him it was time he came into the 20th century. So he got a computer and we started to exchange emails. I kept a record of every email I got from him, and a copy of everything I sent to him—and kept them in a three-ring binder. And at the end of every year, I sent the binder over to Kreitzberg Library as part of the archives. And I did that until just this past month—October, 2013—when I got an email from Betty telling me the sad news that Perry had died. And of course, in those volumes of correspondence—which is mostly nonsense, inane stuff—but correspondence between two guys with similar backgrounds, similar experience, one living in Israel, one living in the State, talking about what's going on in our country or town—and he lived in Ashkelon, which is about five kilometers from the Gaza Strip. So he used to report when the mortar shells were 18 being lobbed into Ashkelon, and they would hide in the stairwells of their apartment building—and so on. So all of this stuff, I think, is an important part of history. I'm so pleased that I decided to send that stuff to the archives. JP: I think that other researchers use it. I know I've used it. It's a great resource. It's, as you said, guys talking about world events with similar backgrounds. What advice would you give a rook today about how to survive and thrive? RC: Well, I—free advice, as you know, some said, "is the smallest coin of the realm," but I give it freely and frequently. I give it to my children whether they want it or not. And I give it to anybody when I think that they need it. But anyhow, I don't know what life is really like for a rook at Norwich now. All I know is what I remember back in the '40s. But I would say keep your head down, keep your mouth shut, keep out of trouble, work hard, learn responsibility and leadership. Beyond that, I don't know what I could say. JP: Those are good. You have a poem that you wrote. Would you be interested in reading that? RC: Well, yeah. One of my avocations is poetry. I'm an amateur. I never taken a course in poetry or how to write it, every once in a while the muse seems to sit on my shoulder, and I have this tremendous urge to sit down and write something. And at first I thought I had to write rhyme verse, and I think that's probably what kept me from writing poetry most of my life. But when I was on an expedition in Greenland and I kept a journal—which I self-published—it is also in the Kreitzberg Library. I found that I wrote some poems when I was in isolation, up on the icecap. And so I'm really surprised when I looked back and find that I've been writing fairly seriously for about 20 years—the last 20 years of my life. Why? I can't explain. But anyhow, I can only write what I feel and what I believe. And a lot of it is counterintuitive, and politically incorrect, and whatever—but I wrote one poem that I used at a veteran's luncheon that we had here at Kendal. And the poem is called "A Veteran Speaks". And here it goes. "Intelligentsia, laugh if you will. Yea, sneer at the patriotic redneck fools who chance their lives and crouch in fear in cold foxholes for the likes of you. You, who take the high ground or the streets to stake out your 19 perception of the higher morality with placards shouting, "Peace! Peace!", and then go home to a warm bed. Could it be that your God is neutral, and doesn't give a damn whether peace or war prevails? You take as a given that God is only with you. You, who are on the side of peace. Could it be that peace is but an unstable interval granted by God for the rest between the wars he has ordained as a sorting out, according to one of his laws, the one that Darwin deciphered? If you were as wise as Sophocles, you would know that only death keeps time from inevitably eroding friendships—be they of men or of countries—bringing them inevitably to war. God must laugh at the prophets. Those mystical schizophrenics that even now show up in every land, and claim to have heard the voice of God speaking directly to them. Explaining his will, giving birth to the myths contrived to all and control the credulous. And when the prophetic religious move on to theocracies, and the great Theocracies then clash for the great sorting out—Darwinian style. Then, perhaps God smiles and says, it is good. Laughers and sneerers, moral high-grounders, you leave it to others to lose their lives, taking the high-ground on the battle field. Lives you think they gave in vain. In peace's time, you finesse your turn to follow the action of someone else's father, mother, cousin, forebear, who risked their lives for you with the love you have never comprehended. Too late, you may learn that you have never lived until you have almost died. And that for those who have had to fight for it, freedom is a flavor you—the protected—have never known, and cannot understand." JP: Wow. Thank you. (break in audio) JP: So, in the book that you wrote with a couple of your classmates for your yearbook that never was—then and now. You talk about missing something—maybe—whether or not—no, it's called "Do You Remember?" and one of them is the joy of being dragged out of the sack in the middle of the night for P-call, and then being sent for a cold shower when your personal plumbing refused to produce. What is P-call?20 RC: Well, P-call is "piss call," and it was standard operating procedure to treat rooks in that way, as part of their growing up. And—what do you call that now? When you mistreat people? JP: Hazing. RC: Yeah. That was one of the hazing treatments that rooks were occasionally exposed to. And P-call was not only occasionally. I'll mention one other experience that I had as a matter of hazing by my classmates. Was that Basil Burrell who was my roommate in my freshman year—were pretty straight arrows. He and I had similar personalities, went to the same church, we had the same standards, both went to public high schools. We just got along very well together. And Bass and I were taking what was euphemistically called "a ride" as a sort of hazing and discipline, and kind of a getting-even with people who were straight arrows, and who—incidentally—were whistle-blowers. Basil and I, living according to the code of honor and the rook handbook, said that if you see something that is wrong and against the rules, it is your responsibility to report it. JP: It's still that way. Yeah. RC: So we saw guys cheating at an exam in a military class. And we said, hell, that ain't right. So we reported it. Well, I learned an important life lesson right then. Whistle-blowers get in trouble. And Basil and I were taken for a ride one night—about 2:00 in the morning—it was the late fall or early spring—I don't remember that it was in the dead of winter—and were taken in a car, blindfolded, and driven around for about twenty minutes—on what obviously were backroads—you could tell from, you know, from the rumple and the noise, and the tread of tires on the road—and they'd drop you off and leave you there to figure out how you're going to get home. And so Basil and I went on a ride once, as retribution, I think, for the fact that we were whistle-blowers. So, that's another level of hazing. And I must say that when I mentioned this anecdote to Russ Todd—a former Norwich president, and a Theta Chi whose butt I paddled as initiation to Theta Chi—and he looked at me and rolled his eyes in disbelief. He said, you mean that really happened? And I said, you're damn right it happened. And I'll tell you something else, I bet it's 21 happening right now, right under the nose of the people who have written and our trying to enforce the honor code—whatever it may be. And he said, well, Bob, you may be right. JP: You mentioned that Perry was one of only two Jews at Norwich—and I know there was a fraternity of the Klan during the teens. Was there much antisemitism there? RC: There wasn't expressed Semitism—antisemitism. And there weren't really two Jews in my class, there were three—which is another anecdote, if you're prepared for this? JP: Sure. RC: The day that my folks dropped me off on the parade at Norwich—my very first day—we were lined up by the company—the troop that we were assigned to. And we were told to line up according to alphabet—we had little tags on—and so we did that. And I was at one end, and there was another guy whose last name began with a 'Y' or a 'Z' at the other end. And in between were two Katzes—K-A-T-Z. The Katz were Isadore Katz and Sidney Katz, and once we were lined up, the second lieutenant in the army—who was assigned to the commandant of cadets—stood in front of us and said, OK. Now I want you to sound off, loud and clear, your last name first and then the first initial of your last name because that's how you'll be known here at Norwich. So we went down the line, got to me, and I was "Christie, R, sir." Then it was the next guy, and whoever it was. Well, we got to Katz. And Lieutenant Kelly was standing there observing all of this, and it came to Isadore Katz. And he said, "Katz, I." And the next one was Sidney Katz, and Sidney Katz said, "Katz, S." Kelly broke up. And the whole exercise got out of control. But the sad part of the story is that Katz Ass—as he was forever known—I say forever, for the next three weeks that he lasted at Norwich as Katz Ass. He left. He just couldn't stand that kind of treatment. And so there was only two Jews, and one was Izzy Katz, who was a good friend, paratrooper, never dropped in combat—which we reminded him of frequently. But anyhow, he and I were also on the "Guidon" staff, and we were on the War Whoop staff. So the then and now book, he and I worked together very closely. And we became very close friends. And he was a real New York Jewish type—wheeler dealer—he ran a Christmas tree farm in some 22 place up in northern Vermont. He was in show business, he was out in Hollywood, he was writing script and so on—wonderful guy—and I got to meet him again when he was living out in Tucson when I was visiting some of my wife's relatives out there. So anyhow, that's the story of Jews at Norwich in 1940-41—particularly of Katz, I and Perry Swirsky. JP: You mentioned earlier about being on the board of trustees when Loring Hart was president and considering adding women to the core. Do you want to talk about that at all? RC: Well, there isn't an awful to talk about. It happened. I would say the majority of the alumni were against it. Just as, here at Dartmouth, when it integrated and had women, the alumni were up in arms. And it was only the strength of character of the president and the trustees—said, it's going to happen. And that's what happened with Norwich trustees and Loring Hart said, this is going to happen. It's got to happen. And of course, this was before the civilian component. These were just women who were being integrated into the cadet corps. So, that was a big deal. JP: What were they afraid of? Not be obvious—not to be obtuse. RC: You know, in Fiddler on the Roof—it's tradition. Tradition. This is a men's college, it's a military college. Women have no place in the military. You know, whatever. That's history. Who would ever dream that there would be gay marriages in our time. JP: And Don't Ask Don't Tell got repealed. RC: Exactly. JP: Do you have anything else that you would like to add? Is there anything else you'd like to say? RC: Only to congratulate you and your tolerance of all that you've had to go through to take this interview. And I'm enjoying it immensely while it's happening. And, again, it's something for posterity, and that's part of what I do. Litera scripta manet, the written word endures. I think the spoken word, in our time, also endures. Someone may be listening to this 100 years from now, wanting to wonder what life was like in the early 20th century at Norwich. JP: It has absolutely been my honor and pleasure to talk with you, Dr. Christie. Thank you so much. RC: Well, thank you so much.23 JP: All right. (break in audio) [1:18:51] JP: And we're back with Dr. Christie, talking about his relationship with Dartmouth. RC: When I went to medical school, it was courtesy of the GI Bill and the Norwich Dean at the time, who made it possible for me to get into medical school without the preexisting courses that every pre-med has to take to apply to medical school. Zoology and comparative anatomy—which is dissecting cats and frogs and so on. The Dean at Norwich let me take freshman zoology and sophomore comparative anatomy in the pre-med program during my senior year, so that I would have the basic qualifications to apply to medical school. I had the good fortune to have a family friend who was on the admissions committee of the Long Island College of Medicine in Brooklyn, New York. I won't go into further detail—that's unnecessary—but anyhow, graduating from Norwich magna cum laude—having the World War II experience, the friendship of a member of the admissions committee of the medical school—all led to the fact that I was able to get into medical school at a time when GIs were coming back in droves—all with GI Bill opportunities ahead of them—and all trying to get into the existing colleges and universities. Well, I won't go into further detail, but the Long Island College of Medicine morphed into the State University of New York. So although I matriculated into a private medical college in Brooklyn, I actually graduated from the State University of New York at New York City—which was the official name at the time. It's now known as Downstate. And Downstate has an established academic history that I think has been accomplished since it was put together. The reason that SUNY was founded was that New York state found that they had no state university, much to their amazing. There were all kinds of private universities and colleges all over the state, but there was never any need for a state university. So they cobbled together one, and they needed medical schools, graduate schools, law schools, and so on. And Syracuse's medical school—which was a private medical college, like Long Island College of Medicine—became the SUNY upstate medical school, and Long Island College became the downstate medical school. 24 And that's the way they exist at the present time. Anyhow—with that little footnote—when it came year for me to graduate, I had just been very fortunate to graduate where I did in my class. Which was right about in the middle. You know, one thing that most people don't realize—and it's important—that 50% of the doctors in the Unites States graduated in the lower half of their medical school class. But anyhow—that being said—I did actually write two medical papers while I was a student—which sort of, I think, got me started on my writing career—which has continued to this day. Anyhow, these publications were the reason that I was awarded two prizes on the day of graduation, much to the consternation of most of the other students in my class who had graduated summa cud laude in medical school and wondering what this dumb guy was doing getting these awards. Well—a little background for that, too, is that the Long Island College of Medicine was in Brooklyn, and almost all of my classmates were Jewish. And I learned the lingo and I can spout a Yiddish phrase at the drop of a hat—which may have some relationship to the fact that Perry Swirsky and I got along so well. We used to exchange Yiddish aphorisms and so on. That being said—so all of my classmates—there was a Jewish quota—this is something else that is not known—during the early 19th century—in all medical schools, because the deans had their own association, and they—you may not want to record me—it's not well known, but there was a Jewish quota when I went to Long Island College of Medicine—and there were a lot of bright Jewish kids—as you can imagine—in New York City, which included Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Staten Island, Bronx—and they were excluded from medical school. They would apply, be turned down, but—being the kinds of folks they were—would say, OK, well we'll go to CCNY or NYU or Queens College, and we'll get a masters degree in physiology, and they would reapply. And every member of my class at Long Island College of Medicine who was Jewish, had a long history of applying and being turned down by medical schools all over the United States. But the ones that got into my class were the ones who had the persistence and the credentials to get in. So, that put a guy like myself—from Norwich, with its very limited background—in zoology and comparative anatomy, dissecting frogs with guys who had PhDs in 25 biochemistry and so on. And, you know, it showed up. I mean, I was a struggling student all through my first two years where it's all classroom and very little clinical experience. Soon as I got into the clinical years, I was able to really play the game with all the rest of them. I could handle myself as well with patients as they could. And so, that was one of the reasons I was able to graduate. Not because of my academic record in my first two years. But—that having been said—it's important that—the senior year was the first year of something called the intern matching program. Up until that time, everybody had to have an internship if they were going to be licensed in a state in the United States. It didn't make any difference which state. They all required the fact that you had had an internship. In other words, that you had had some clinical experience. So, I listed in this first year of the matching program—a number of the hospitals that I knew in New York City—Bellevue and Roosevelt Hospital in Columbia, PNS—and the way things worked out, I had an opportunity to list one other out-of-city appointments that I would accept. And that turned out to be Mary Hitchcock Memorial Hospital in Hanover, New Hampshire. The reason I did that was that my freshman year of medical school, a fellow at my autopsy table—there were four of us who dissected the same cadaver—was a Dartmouth graduate, and he and I became close friends. We did a lot of visiting and traveling together. And he said, I'm going to take a tour of the hospitals up in northern New England. Would you like to come with me? And I did. And he and I visited the medical school at Burlington, and the one over here in Hanover. And when I—you know, I had loved being in Vermont, and the years that I had spent there—although it wasn't all salubrious, the first three years. I did love Vermont and northern New England, and the idea—and I was married at the time—of just doing something different came to mind. And I said, oh, what the hell? So, the phone rang. Dartmouth called up the Mary Hitchcock hospital and said, would you accept an appointment as a rotating intern? There will be 11 other interns in your intern class. And I said, yeah, sure. Sign me up. And that's how come I didn't go to Bellevue or Roosevelt Hospital or Brooklyn hospital—I ended up going to Hitchcock hospital. From there, I went and finished my internship, did a year in internal 26 medicine—wanted to do what I went into medicine for in the first place. Be a family doctor. An emulation of my family doctor when I was growing up. JP: Really? RC: And so, a couple of Dartmouth medical school graduates were practicing over in Northfield, and they had a place called the Green Mountain Clinic. And they were looking for an associate, and they came to Dartmouth, and they made their needs known, and we got connected. And I said, what the hell? I'm not sure I want to be an internist. I'd like to see what it's really like to practice medicine. So that's how I got connected with being in practice—general practice for three years at Northfield. And, because of my Norwich background, Ernie Harmon—who was then the president—appointed me the university surgeon. Well, I wasn't going to do any surgery at the university. But the three of us who were the doctors in the town at Green Mountain Clinic took turns taking sick call. And what we were called was—you know, in the army, when you're the doctor, you're the surgeon. You go down to see the surgeon because that's what doctors did mostly in the army. So anyhow, that's how I became the university surgeon, and it was my relationship with Ernie Harmon—which is a whole other set of stories—that led to that. Ernie was actually one of my patients for minor illnesses. He got most of his care at the VA hospital down here. But, you know, when he had a sore throat or a boil or something like that, he'd come down to the Green Mountain Clinic and be one of my patients. As was Shorty Hamilton, of course. Perley Baker. So I was well connected later on with the faculty. But that's what my connection with Dartmouth reconnected me with Norwich. And when I got to Norwich, I was amongst a lot of Norwich alums—one of which was John Mazuzan, the fellow who had the printing office where I set type for the "Guidon", and who actually printed up the "Guidon". He was the one who did the Norwich record, and it was a very minor publication, I can assure you. And he asked me if I would work with him on the Norwich record. And so, I did, and before I knew it, I was a member of the Alumni Association. Because he was, in essence—because he was the publisher of the Norwich record of the Alumni Association. There was no association. 27 So he said, you know, I'm going to appoint you the Alumni Association president. So that's how I became president of the Norwich Alumni Association. Well, that led to a slot on the board of trustee. When I finished being a trustee for five years, with Bob Hallam—another Norwich graduate -- JP: The engineer? RC: Yeah. And a very successful one. We were approached after we finished out final year by Jake Shapiro, who was a war hero in the Africa corps—was badly wounded—shot up there—but a very dedicated Norwich alumnus. And he and I got to be good friends. And he used to visit me because he was a business man with business over in Maine, and when he was traveling from wherever he was living at the time, he would always drop in at the farm where I was living. And we would have a couple drinks together, and sometimes dinner together. So Jake was a good friend. But that came later. But Jake said to Bob Hallam and myself, you know, we've been thinking as the trustees that it's so damn sad that so many guys like yourselves, who have had all the experience in the Alumni Association—you're graduates—and so on. And you go become a trustee, and there's nothing beyond that for you to be involved with Norwich about—except maybe giving money. So Jake said, how would you guys like to start some kind of organization of fellows of Norwich University, who will sort of be in the background and be a means of continuity of active alums who have done a lot for the university, who have been connected in some way. And so, Bob Hallam and I—and the then commandant of cadets—got together and we set up the Board of Fellows, and I became the first president of the Board of Fellows, and was the president for—I don't know—five or eight years—and did that. And so, I've just been connected with everybody—all the presidents and whatever—right along the line—and that, of course, explains my deep relationship—and continued relationship—with Norwich. And I doubt that the many of my peers here at Kendal have the kind of relationship with their alma mater that I've had with mine. For all the reasons that I've been talking about here. Oh, here I've run on for more --28 JP: That's fine. I have to ask. If you've got a Harmon story -- RC: I do. Well, I have a couple of Harmon stories. JP: That's fine. RC: The first was at the time I graduated from Norwich, when we came back as seniors. Of course, we were in uniform. And we were sort of mentors to the cadets. When they wanted to know what it was like in the real military—what combat was like, all that stuff. You know, they'd—we'd have a beer together up at the tavern and—you know, we got an unofficial role—but anyhow, we were in uniform. The day I graduated, Ernie Harmon was on the stage. He was not the president at the time, but I think he might have given the graduation address. "Ol' Gravel Voice" he was called, and he gave a wonderful talk. And I—you know—he was the CG of the Second Armored Division in Africa and Sicily—not sure Africa, but I know in Sicily and Italy—and then he went to the ETO, and he was involved, as I was, in the Battle of the Bulge. So we had this loose relationship. Well, walking across the stage to get my diploma, Ernie sees my Third Armored Division patch on one shoulder of my uniform, and the Constabulary patch on the other. And of course, he had been the commanding general of the Constabulary—which my division had become, as I previously accounted as the kind of occupation police force in Germany. Well, I was the troop commander of my Constabulary troop in Ulm and the discipline was a little loose in my troop. I have to admit that. It wasn't that I didn't know what was right, or what should be done. But, you know, the war was over, I was waiting to go home, and I wasn't a spit and polish guy in my troop. It ran very well, everybody was happy, no suicides or anything like that. But anyhow, who should arrive on the scene in Goering's private train—which he had commandeered after the war. It was painted with a big Constabulary signature on the side—same as on the patch on my shoulder—and out of it stepped Ernie Harmon to inspect my troop, unannounced. Well, he came up to where we were, and he found a few things he didn't like. One was that a recent recruit was standing around doing nothing in particular when Ernie thought he should be doing something in particular. He didn't care what it was, but he should be 29 doing something. Well, unfortunately, a buck sergeant—recently over from the States, not part of the combat experience—was in charge of this group of other new recruits. And this guy, this buck sergeant, was sweeping off the steps of the mess hall. And when Ernie Harmon saw a buck sergeant sweeping the steps, with privates standing around doing nothing, he exploded. And he started to chew, and he started at the bottom, and he chewed right up through the privates, through the corporals, through the sergeants, through the top sergeant, through the lieutenants, through the captain—that was me—and he said, Christie, I don't want to have anything like this happen under your command. Understand that? Yes, sir. Well, things tightened up after that, of course. Although, he never did come back. And I came home a couple of months after that. But that was my first experience—face to face—with Ernie Harmon. Which is the prelude to what happened when I picked up my diploma from his hand. He looked at my patches and gave a kind of quizzical look, and he said, "I know you, you son of a bitch." I didn't know what to do. So like I said, pass gas or wind my watch—at that point. So anyhow, I said, "Yes, sir. I remember you, too, sir." And the next thing he said—well, of course people were lined up to walk across the stage—and not many of them would have a conversation with Ernie Harmon. So anyhow, he said, Christie, are you married? And I said, "No, sir." Well, he said, "Get married and be productive!" Yes, sir. And that was—the next time I saw him, he was the president of Norwich University, and he was one of my patients. JP: Oh my gosh. He had Goering's train car? RC: Oh, yeah. He captured it—you know—we had souvenirs. That was one of his souvenirs. He had to travel all over Germany on the railroad. He needed a private car, private engine—whatever. Goering had that in spades. Beautiful train, engine, and had two cars. It was Ernie Harmon's headquarters. JP: Oh my gosh. I've never heard that story. That is priceless. RC: So, that's my Ernie Harmon story. JP: Oh, thank you. That's a good one. Anything else?30 RC: I think I've kind of run out of anecdotes. I, you know, I could come up and talk all day and all night about things that I remember that have happened. But anyhow, that is just skipping on top of some of the highlights. JP: Thank you so much. END OF AUDIO FILE

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CITY HOTEL, Main Street, - Gettysburg, Pa. Free Bus to an from all trains. Thirty seconds' walk from either depot. Dinner with drive over field with four or more, $1.35. Rates, $1.50 to $2.00 per Day. Livery connected. Rubber-tire buggies a specialty. John E. Hughes, Prop. L. M. ALLEMAN, Manufacturers' Agent and Jobber of Hardware, Oils, Paints and Queensware, CETTYSBURC, PA. The only Jobbing House in Adams County. BUS. E. BARBEHEHH, THE EACLE HOTEL Corner Main and Washington Sts. Drag Stoi*e, 36 Baltimore St. HOT AND COLD SODA AND CAMERA SUPPLIES (J. B. Ipfamillei1 Dealer in Hats, Caps, Boots and Douglas Shoes, GETTYSBURG, PA. WEIKERT & CROUSE, Butchers, Everything in this line we handle. GIVE US A TEIAL. Baltimore Street, - Gettysburg. THE PHOTOGRAPHER Now in new Studio 20 and 22 Chambersburg Street, Gettysburg, Pa. One of the finest modern lights in the country. PATRONIZE OUR ADVERTIZERS. X"i. -well dressed eustom.er is tlae best advertis2ment. "We; aim to gi\7-e you tlxe UNTe-west Styles, both, in "Woolens and. IXEalte-Lip. * Ulill m. Selicjman, TaiiOP, 7 ChambePsbupg St., Gettysburg, Pa. R. A. WONDERS Corner Cigar Parlors. A ful'i line of Cigars, Tobacco, Pipes, etc. Scott's Corner, opp. Eagle Hotel GETTYSBURG, PA. Pool Parlors in Connection. GO TO McDannell's Restaurant, 8 Baltimore St., Gettysburg. Everything in Season. Oysters in all Styles. Open from 7 A. M. to 2 A. M. JAMES McDANNELL, Prop. Established 1887 by Allen Walton. Allen K. Walton, Pres. and Treas. Robt. J. Walton, Superintendent. Brown Stone Compaq, and Manufacturers of BUILDING STONE, SAWED FLAGGING, and TILE, WALTONVILLE DAUPHIN COUNTY. PEMA. Contractors for all kinds of cut stone work. Telegraph and Express Address, BROWNSTONE, PA. Parties visiting Quarries will leave cars at Brownstone Station, on the P. & R. R.R. r THE GETTYSBURG JIEKCURY The Literary Journal of Gettysburg College Vol. XI. GETTYSBURG, PA., JAN., 1903 No. 7 CONTENTS "THE MELANCHOLY JACQUES," 218 LYMAN A. GUSS, '04. A CULTIVATION OF SOCIAL QUALITIES, . 222 C. EDwiN BUTLER, '05. REST AND CLEAR THINKING 225 M. DH.I.ENBECK, '05. THE FORCE OF PUBLIC OPINION IN THE RECENT COAL STRIKE 227 EDWARD B. HAY, '03. HAVE WOMEN A SUPERIOR FITNESS FOR TEACHING ? 230 FRANK LAYMAN, '04. THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE, 232 JOSEPH E. ROWE, '04. THE HERMIT'S HOME 234 W. W. BARKI.Y, '04. "PEACE ON EARTH" (Story), . 239 H. S. L., '03. EDITORIALS 245 A New Year's Resolution. EXCHANGES ■ ■ , 24g 218 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. "THE MELANCHOLY JACQUES. LYMAN A. GUSS, '04. DRYDEN says in one of his writings: "But Shakespeare's magic could not copied be, Within that circle none durst walk but he." This fact is truly exemplified in his marvellous production "As You Like It." Perhaps the magic is not so real as that found in "The Tempest," yet the wonderful insight which the author had of human nature, as strongly depicted in the play, as well as the idealism associated with its composition and the irregularity of action, give it a magical strain throughout, and this very quality perhaps explains to a great extent its univer-sal popularity. Jacques, the Melancholy, although a subordinate character, is nevertheless an illustration of Shakespeare's intimate acquaint-ance with the tendencies of the human mind under its various conditions. It has been said that Jacques, Touchstone and Audrey were innovations of Shakespeare's own invention intro-duced into "As You Like It," and that they are in no way as-sociated with "Rosalynde"—the source of the play. This fact all the more displays the author's creative power. Jacques, especially, is quite an indispensable character and had he been left out, the composition would certainly be lack-ing in that variety of form and action which conduces so much towards making it interesting. Jacques is classed with Touch-stone, and the melancholia of one and the frivolousness of the other in their conversations render them entertaining and often instructive, as when Jacques explains his own melancholy and the cause thereof. It has been supposed that Shakespeare meant to hold up to ridicule a tendency towards melancholia in his own nature, and that Jacques is merely a representative of himself. If such is the case, of course such tendency has been greatly exaggerated and enlarged upon. The other explanation that Jacques is in- THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 219 troduced for the purpose of depicting a phase of French life, seems the more plausible. Shakespeare was a great portrayer of human life and its environment, and it is quite natural that such a character should be developed in the play to bring out the marked difference between such a life as Jacques lived and that of the nobler characters. In Jacques we see the fruits of evil as they invariably fall upon one who disregards the laws of chaste living. Jacques having been in his time deeply en-grossed in much evil, and having had much experience as a sensuous profligate, has now become a confirmed cynic, and is able to see nothing bright in life whatever. Jacques is not a fool by profession and accordingly covets the office of the fool which it is Touchstone's right to hold. He is comical, meditative and witty, but his "merry sadness" per-vades his life throughout and really justifies the statement: "but it is a melancholy of mine own, compounded of many simples, extracted from many objects." Apparently of good parentage, he is a slave to his own feelings and through this very weakness has obliterated every enjoyment from life. In his profligacy he found no lasting pleasure and he, now unable to appreciate the right side of life, gives free rein to his senti-mental melancholy, and rails on the world in general in the turbulence of his passion. He has grown accustomed to this kind of life and even confesses: "I do love it better than laughing." He seems to delight in expressing his dark views of life and ostentatiously vents this contemptuous dislike for men and even life itself. His meditations are often profound and philosophical as when he says : "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players : They have their exits and their entrances ; And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages." The other characters are developed in spirit and fortitude amid the wild life of the forest and are inclined to regard life as a sort of merry and frolicsome existence, but Jacques can only 220 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. see it as a stern and seriously reality, full of misfortunes and stumbling blocks and scarcely worth the living. We must believe that Jacques is even still in love with his old habits and practices and that the melancholy name which he presents is only the mask of folly. This is quite manifest from his dissatisfaction from the correct standards of living as em-ployed in the duke's Arcadia. He seems to have found a most apt place in which to condemn the world and all in it. He is too foolish to know that his own morbid silence, which he be-lieves to be a virtue by saying, "Why it's good to be sad and say nothing," is only an exposure of his cynical and often pre-tentious wisdom. But for all his apparent fault and vice Jacques has a place in "As You Like It," and a place which no one but Jacques could properly fill. His vice and depravity teach a lesson in morals. His melancholia points out the dejected and dissatis-fied lot of him who practices it. It shows that there is a bright and a dark side of life and contrasts the two in a realistic man-ner. Again Jacques is always acting his own counterpart and his dispensations of satire are really harmless in themselves. He thereby proves to us that the melancholy nature is quite certain to be of no hurt save to him who courts it. Even the wit of Jacques is dampened by the slanderous sentimentality which he hurls at his audience. For instance: Orlando easily gets the better of him in their private meeting in the forest. Jacques says that if he looks in the brook, at the instigation of Orlando, for a fool: "There I shall see mine own figure." Or-lando replies: "Which I take to either be a fool or a cipher." This statement puts the climax on all and Jacques withdraws. In short Jacques is a minus quantity in a minus world so far as he has the power and faculty of enjoying life. Shakespeare has justly been called a poet—not of an age, but of all time and his right to be so called has never been challenged. "As You Like It" goes a great way towards sub-stantiating this fact. The poet's careful handling of his char-acter and his penetrating insight into human nature comprises, in brief, the secret of his success. No one other than he could 221 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. have made a Jacques, and no one else could have made him a melancholy Jacques. He is one of the many characters in which the magic of the author wonderfully asserts its power. THE GOLDEN APPLE. When Paris entered college he took an apple there. The first day came three callers, three goddesses so fair That Paris was a-wondered, to know what brought them there. The fair ones cried together, "Come, Taris, noble lad, Where is thy golden apple ? Wouldst thou not make us glad By giving us thine apple ? Be generous, noble lad." Then spake the first fair goddess : "Deep Wisdom is my name, Give thou but me the apple and far shall spread thy fame.— I'll give to thee much learning, a great and honored name." Up spake the second goddess : "Thy apple give to me— Behold a foot-ball hero, an athlete thou shalt be ; And thou shalt have great glory if thou givest it to me." The third smiled on young Paris as but a goddess can— "I'll make thee to the maidens fair—a winsome lady's man." To her the apple Paris gave, and was a lady's man. —77/(? Haverfordian. 222 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. A CULTIVATION OF SOCIAL QUALITIES. C. EDWIN BUTLER, '05. THIS subject resolves itself into a question: Should or should not social qualities be cultivated ? The negative side of this question could in no manner be sustained by a body of college students, for they, by the very fact of their be-ing in a college, sustain the affirmative. Their fraternities, their societies, their Young Men's Christian Association and all their organizations speak in favor of such a cultivation. Having done then with the negative side of this question, since it is mutually agreed by all that it should be cultivated, it will be well for us to consider why they should be cultivated, or why we should be advanced in the social life. A man should cultivate social qualities first for his own sake, for his own advancement, for his own pleasure and for the pleaure of others. Witness a man low in life, groveling among the filth and slurps of the city, without a penny to purchase for himself the necessaries of life and without a chance to earn money. He will not starve; he gets food, but how? In the dark night, when all the earth is in slumber, by stealth he comes forth and obtains that which he must have to keep the fire burn-ing within him. He will not associate with others, because he cannot; he lacks something which they possess—social quali-ties. Now witness a man with the social side of his nature fully developed. You see him mingling with the very best people in the town, in the state, and in the nation. Every learned man knows him; all speak well of him and each one is glad to call him his friend. He is much sought after. Behold him going down the street, body erect, a bearing fit for a king, yet a smile and a glad word for all. A tower of wisdom; an encyclopedia of humor and a wealth of wit that rivals the Irish-man. What a vast difference between this and the former man! One the despised outcast of all circles; the other the idol, the light, the joy of every man, woman and child. And not only should one be educated socially for his own THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 223 benefit, but for the sake of the home, the family bonds, and the the family associations. The sacred bond of matrimony is the relation of a man and a woman, legally united for life as hus-band and wife. Consider the torture and distress of that man and that woman, if they are uncultivated in social life. Note their offspring, as to paternal and maternal respect. All is not harmony and happiness in that home. The rough, untrained side of nature asserts itself and lo ! wheels of sociability do not work in unison. How unfortunate that home! All around it is gloom and despair; the shrubbery, the fence, and even the very doors frown upon you. You turn your back upon this home and across the street you go, here you enter a yard with roses and shrubbery, thick with foliage. Sunlight is scat-tered everywhere and entering those bright rooms, you are greeted with a smile and a warm handshake. Verily, you say, What peace and contentment there is here! O Life, how en-joyable art thou! But not alone for the individual and for the home should so-cial qualities be cultivated. These would be sufficient causes for their cultivation, if there were no more. However, there is a step higher than the home, and that is citizenship. In order for a nation to rank among the other nations of the globe, she must have a certain degree of social cultivation, and in order for her to rank first, to stand at the head, to be a leader of all other nations—as dear old America is—she must have more than a degree; a thorough development of those powers are necessary. Our beloved land is a government by the people. Each individual in that great governmental wheel is as a spoke in the wheel of a vehicle. Let one be not up to the standard, and the whole wheel is weakened. Let .half a dozen be un-sound and the wheel will totter and fall. How important is it then that every man, woman and child be a sound and faithful spoke, each performing his separate function, not only to the best of his ability, but, in addition, striving to do his utmost in behalf of a nation so dear. The man that can make a home so happy and peaceful, as the one already visited, is the same man that can strengthen this grand republic. He it is that can make 224 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. her stand forth as leader, and as head in all industrial and com - mercial, political and governmental, religious and social affairs. America wants you, young man! She has need of you ! She wants you not alone for your own sake, not alone for the home's sake, but for the advancement and elevation of these United States, the home of a free people. She wants wrought deep in every man's heart a full sense of the social qualities in America to-day. AI.CAEON TO HIS LOVB. Sweet as the thyme to honey bees, Sweet as to birds their nesting trees, Are you, Nea, to me. When Aphrodite, in her shell, Came gliding to music's swell, Across the dawn-lit sea ; With flower-inwoven tresses crowned, The rose-lipped goddess smiled around Upon the Naiads near; While all the golden-winged Loves, And softly-cooing turtle doves, Flew round their mistress dear. Most fair she was as gaily borne She came at blush of early morn Along the violet sea. Yet you, sweet maid, are fairer far, More lovely than the evening star, And so shall ever be. —Georgetown CollegeJournal. THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 225 REST AND CLEAR THINKING. M. DlIXENBHCK, '05. THE greatest gift that a man receives from his Creator and the one that places him preeminently above all other creations of the Infinite, is the power of reason. He, alone, of all the various forms of life, is able to think intelligently and, by thinking, to arrive at just conclusions. The horse and the dog have a certain instinct, which possibly could be called reason, noticeable in their recognition of persons and objects and often shown in their playful moments. But it is left to man to be the worthy possessor of a faculty, with which he holds up to his mental vision, the different sides of a perplexing question or the arguments for or against a cer-tain course of action, and decides whether the one side is of more weight or of less weight, or, whether it is right or wrong to do that which his nature prompts him to do. This faculty is the reasoning faculty, and is synonymous with clear thinking. Every action is preceded by thought. This is true in all cases, providing the mind is in a normal and healthy condition. Even in moments of extreme danger and in times requiring immediate action, thought must come first. In such instances, however, reason plays but a small part and the action seems prompted by a kind of instinct. There is no time for clear thinking, and therefore the action is not always—and indeed not generally—of the wisest. In our day, we read and hear so much of "intense activ-ity" and "the strenuous life," that we are almost led to believe that rest and clear thinking are not elements in a successful life; that thought and action must be simultaneous ; that there can be no time for meditation. The truth is, however, that rest and clear thought are essentials to success. There must be mo-ments of leisure and rest of active bodily duties in every life, else there can be no growth in either the mental, physical or spiritual natures. 226 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. Indeed, most of the great thoughts of the great minds of the world have come to us through the resting moments of the men whom they have made famous. The greatest inventions of the age have been conceived in the quiet and peace of a workshop. Our deepest and holiest and noblest thoughts are the product of our meditations. It is then that reason has full sway and clear, straightforward thinking is accomplished. It is then that we weigh our thoughts and actions in the scale of reason and decide upon our course. Hurry and bustle are in no way conducive to clear thought. That "a rolling stone gathers no moss" is as true from an intellectual standpoint as (rom a financial standpoint. Many instances are related of the deep thoughts of great men while alone and resting. Reason and clear thinking, then, are products of rest, and if we be numbered with the bright and earnest men of our day we must take time to think. THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 227 THE FORCE OF PUBLIC OPINION IN THE RE-CENT COAL STRIKE. EDWARD B. HAY, '03. AMERICANS are good natured. They accept the inno-vations of everyday life, annoying though they some-times Be, much as a matter of course. If it rains to-day it will be pleasant tc-morrow. If the individual is wronged, he feels confident that the law will take his part, and eventually cause his rights to be granted. The multitude may be wronged, but they feel that outraged justice will soon be avenged under the watchful eye of Uncle Sam, and all will be well again. Hence it is that public grievances sometimes assume immense propor-tions before the people rise up en masse to enforce recognition of their individual welfare. No other nation would or could patiently endure so long. When, however, the American people unite in their deter-mination to eradicate some evil the stress becomes unendurable and something must give way. If a dead-lock between two op-posing forces over which no existing authority has control is the source of public disturbance, then some supreme authority must be found or assumed. In a nation ruled by its people, public opinion has unparalleled force. If existing laws or precedents will not serve to adjust disputes of universal significance, then public opinion may demand that new laws or precedents be established which will meet the exigencies of the case. Such indeed has been the course and force of public opinion in the recent great coal strike in Pennsylvania. At the start, this strike caused little attention outside the ranks of those then immediately concerned ; namely the miners and operators. Slight disagreements are constantly occurring between capital and labor, resulting in strikes, the small and local character of which causes little general consideration. When, however, a disagreement occurs which takes out of the market a product of the soil in universal use, then the interests of a third party are effected, and this party is the general public. 228 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. Thus a-third and most powerful claimant of rights enters the dispute and we may rest assured that this final contestant, being now the party most interested, will compel a recognition of its claims. As is its custom, the force of public opinion developed grad-ually in the late strike as the conditions and causes of the dis-cord became better known, and as individual' interests became more and more generally affected, until finally its impetus was so great as to overcome the strength of the two great antagon-istic forces. There has been but a single parallel in the past decade to this remarkable manifestation of the action and force of public opinion in our land, but this had its source without our borders. Hence, we will venture to say that the Pennsyl-vania coal strike afforded the best opportunity of recent years for the economist to study the various phenomena of public opinion as the ruling force of a free people. First, the people read in their morning papers that the miners of the anthracite coal region had struck for higher wages. Well, a strike was no particular novelty. Nor was there any-thing very marvelous in the fact that men should demand greater remuneration for their services, if they felt they deserved it Curiosity more than sentiment or established opinion led the populace to glance with some interest over the strike situation each day. Some people took sides with the miners, others with the operators, according as their journals viewed the subject, or as similar previous occasions had prejudiced them. The strike became a prominent and interesting topic of discussion. Such a variety of views was to be found that most people were more or less confused and were unable to sustain convictions favoring either side for any considerable time. This was all well enough during the warm summer months. Few people outside the contending combinations were affected then. But, now the Fall comes on apace. People awake to their peril. The contention of these phantom-like forms of labor and capital is no longer a midsummer night's dream. Fall is here, Winter approaches, and still no coal. Rich and poor alike now raise their voices, the former in the interest of their impeded business, the latter in defense of their THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 229 very lives. All classes suddenly discover a great interest in common. They rise to protect themselves. But, who are the offenders? Upon whom shall their righteous indignation fall ? Each party in the determined struggle before them claims that the other is the aggressor and brings forth proof to this effect. The outraged populace is bewildered but none the less deter-mined. They move from appeal to request, from request to demand that the dispute be terminated. He, in whom public opinion finds its culmination, the President of the United States, now moves in the matter. With the nation at his back, Presi-dent Roosevelt calls the heads of the opposing forces together for a conference, and requests a settlement in the interests of humanity. Mr. Mitchell for the strikers promptly agrees to accede to the universal interests, leaving the personal grievance of his party to arbitration. But, the operators: no, it is no-body's business but their own if they choose to freeze and starve the nation. They are a power sufficient unto themselves. Now the offenders have at last been discovered and the full force of public opinion swoops down upon their unfortunate heads. Its force is appalling. No power could long resist it. And so we find these haughty gentlemen soon succumb to the inevitable. They are forced to concede to a proposition of their adversaries for settling the dispute, for they are now in the power of public opinion, and public opinion is no recog-nizer of persons. May those hereafter tempted to disturb the public learn from the outcome of this contest that under a government of the people, by the people and for the people, if written laws are inadequate the voice of the people is law. Then the great coal strike of the anthracite miners of Pennsylvania during the Sum-mer and Fall of 1902, with its resultant struggle among the forces of capital, labor and public opinion, will have had a bene-ficent effect by establishing the supremacy of public opinion as an active and powerful arbiter for the interests ol the nation. ■ 230 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. HAVE WOMEN A SUPERIOR FITNESS FOR TEACHING? FRANK LAYMAN, '04. IN discussing this question we shall not extend our conclu-sions to the higher grades of the teaching profession, but shall confine ourselves to the ranks where the great body of female teachers are found. It is true that women are at work behind the teacher's desk in many of our higher institutions of learning, but it is the ex-ceptional woman that is found there. The representative fe-male teacher (and this is the one that we must consider in this article), is found in the primary and intermediate grades in town and in the country schools. In these schools we venture to say that women have a superior fitness for teaching. The pupils in such schools are young and so the demand upon the teacher is not so much for scholarship and strong reasoning power as for the faculty of understanding child nature and consequently the ability to teach the most effectively and to discipline for the best interests of the pupil. That women are superior to men in these qualifications we shall now attempt to show. Woman stands in a much closer relation to children than man. She has been constituted the natural nurse of our race, and upon her rests the responsibility of bringing children into the world and of caring for them. For these duties she has been specially endowed with a better understanding of child nature and a readier sympathy for children than man possesses. This intuitive understanding and sympathy goes out not only toward her own offspring but to other children as well as occa-sion demands. The result is often seen in the way in which she adapts herself to the wants of children and wins their con-fidence at times when men in their clumsy ways utterly fail. The value of this better understanding of child nature is es-pecially manifest in the work of instruction. No workman, no artist, can successfully work upon material which he does not thoroughly understand. Perhaps the illustration is crude, but THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 23 I nevertheless it is just as true that a teacher cannot really teach without understanding child nature, and, as we have seen, wo-man is endowed with this gift. Woman's superior fitness for teaching is even more manifest in the sphere of discipline. If discipline were merely the work of overawing children, of securing good order by force, then perhaps male teachers would be better disciplinarians. But in the grades where women are found such discipline is positively injurious to the child. Here the demand is for such regulation of conduct as shall strengthen and develop character, such dis-cipline as shall induce right conduct because it is felt to be for the best, not because seemingly good behavior is compulsory. Woman's marked success in securing this kind of discipline is everywhere acknowledged. That indefinable and inimitable way in which she accomplishes her purposes we call tact. It results from her better understanding of child nature. One other fact may be mentioned. It seems to be the gen-eral experience of teachers that male teachers are more success-ful in dealing with girls in the school room, and female teachers with boys. The reason for this I shall not attempt to give. I only state what has been observed in a number of cases. The fact has this important bearing on the question. In every school the boys are the element most difficult to manage prop-erly, and, in her greater success in managing them, woman again demonstrates her superior fitness for teaching. 232 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. "S1 THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE. JOSEPH E. ROWE, '04. HALL Rome stand under one man's awe? What, Rome?" These words are not only the utterance of a Roman conspir-ator but the voice of centuries. The cry has not been, "Shall Rome stand under one man's awe?" but, "Shall any nation stand in awe of one man or of a few ?" Every age that has wit-nessed revolutions has echoed with these identical words of challenge. The people in every case have issued the challenge and have struggled incessantly until their condition was im-proved. The Rights of the People are irrepressible. Revolutions have been agitated under widely different pre-texts. Tarquin was driven from the streets of the "Eternal City" because one dared to give him the hated name of king. Nobility was the crime which brought Louis XVI and his in-nocent wife Marie Antoinette to the guillotine. The principal reason for beheading Charles I was his insult to Parliament. But beneath all was the indomitable force of individual rights. Did the Romans exile Tarquin simply because they objected to the title of king ? No. To them the name king was a syn-onym for tyranny and oppression; king meant a suppression of individual rights. Noble birth or tyranny was not the real cause of the execu-tion of Louis XVI. He was the mildest and most untyrannical of all the Bourbons. But his predecessors in their oppression of the people were simply intolerable. Persons were thrust into prison, and even killed, not for any crime, but at the arbitrary command of the king. Taxes were beyond all reason. Fur-thermore, Louis XV had expended the public money—the hard-earned money of the people—in building for himself at Versailles a palace of the most fabulous magnificence, costing the enormous sum of a hundred million dollars. The extrava-gance of the Bourbons in general would almost have put a Nero to shame. Ah, these preceding kings were sowing the seed of the hellish harvest which Louis XVI was destined to reap. THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 233 Can we wonder that the rights of the people asserted them-selves even in such a wild bacchanalian revel as that of the French Revolution ? No king has ever kept down individual rights for any length of time. King John was compelled to respect the People's Rights as laid down in the "Magna Charta." Charles I tried to rule without Parliament and was beheaded. George III attempted to enforce upon the American Colonists "Taxation without Representation" and they became "The United States of America." Every nation of the past which has failed to respect these innate rights of man has been wiped from the face of the earth. The once-glorious empires of the East—Babylon and Persia— are known chiefly by the vestiges of their despotism ; Egypt, Greece, Macedonia, Rome and Carthage have played their part, and are no more, and splendid Spain of the Middle Ages has fallen, and is tottering slowly but surely to her grave. Fortunately there is one country which can truly be called "The Land of the Free." It has been founded not upon the sandy foundations of the nations of the past, but upon the rock of her achievements. She has fully realized that Caesar had his Brutus, Charles I his Cromwell, and that George III should have profited well by their example. Her principles are those which have stood the test of time unaffected, yea, more, they are those which time has proven unconquerable. It is only America that recognizes the rights of every man. May she not forget the lessons which may be drawn from the past, but let the secret of her greatness be the ruling principle of the future nations of the world and may her posterity be ever able to sing as she can to-day, The pilgrim spirit has not fled : It walks in noon's broad light. And it watches the bed of the glorious dead With the holy stars by night. It watches the bed of those who have bled, And shall guard this ice-bound shore Till the waves of the bay where the Mayflower lay Shall foam and freeze no more. 234 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. THE HERMIT'S HOME. W. W. BARKXEY, '04. AMILE or more southeast of Gettysburg, and a short dis-tance to the east of Spangler's Spring and Rock Creek, on an elevation known as Wolf's Hill, is the home of an old her-mit. On approaching this secluded spot in the woods without any previous knowledge of the existence of this peculiar and eccentric old man, one would scarcely expect to find any human being dwelling there. Every thing seems quiet and lonely and still. The hill is literally covered with pines and rocks. After having fully entered the growth of trees, one seems to be cut off completly from the outer world, and to be cast into a deep solitude. It is truly a desirable place for a man wishing to live entirely alone, free from the cares and anx-ieties of the world. We may well call it the ideal hermit home. A wagon road having been followed a part of the distance, after a while you turn off to the left on a path leading through a thick growth of small pines, the lower branches of which have been trimmed off carefully with an ax, thus unmistaking-ly marking the path. Suddenly the hermitage appears. At once it excites wonder and curiosity, and it is determined to examine every point of interest, which observations we shall at-tempt to offer in the shape of a short sketch. The miniature estate is a pentagon in shape and embraces about a quarter of an acre of cleared land; naturally it is sur-rounded on all sides by woods and artificially it is enclosed with a stone wall about four feet high and two feet thick, built by the hands of the hermit himself who gathered the stones one by one and fitted them carefully in their places. About a foot above the wall is stretched one strand of heavy fencing wire, making it difficult for both man and beast to molest the property. The whole wall, as it were, reminds one of the an-cient idea of a walled city designed to keep the enemy out. That part of the enclosure which has not been utilized as a foundation for buildings, seems to be cultivated yearly as a THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 235 garden and a potato and corn patch. The little field is not as smooth and even as gardens usually are. It is not yet free from all the stones, and the whole lot is interspersed with huge boulders immovable by one man's strength. Here and there stands a tree which has not been removed yet. One we ob-served in particular, a tall yellow pine with wide branches which the otd man calls his "Summer Resort." Around it is fixed a circular seat on which he spends many a hot summer afternoon, smoking his soothing pipe and musing. Almost in the center of the pentagon, stands the house which is the main part of the hermits home. Originally it was built in the shape of a cave, the roof extending to the ground on both sides. It is extremely rude in its structure and reminds us somewhat of a pioneer hut. Either end has the appearance of the gable end of a house. Since the erection of this meagre shanty, however, the hermit has built a more convenient end to it, which serves now as the main part of the house. This new addition is about fifteen feet square and ten feet high. It is built of logs rough-hewn, and well fitted together with mortar, thus making the room comfortable in time of cold. The roof has but one slope, and is made of boards and slabs covered with thick tar paper. Three small windows admit light into the single chamber in which the hermit cooks, eats, sleeps and spends the most of his time. Within, the walls are literally covered with pictures of all classes and descriptions. In one corner stands the bed, old fashioned and covered with bed cloth-ing, dirty, torn and tattered; in another a small dingy cooking stove, rusty and fire eaten; in a third, a roughly made desk and table in combination constructed by the hermit's own hand out of the crude material of the forest and resembling very much the table of the pioneer's shanty or the cowboy's shack. This table serves him in cooking and eating and is at the same time the depository of his few books and valuables. A few old chairs and stools help to fill the room. Hanging on the wall is an old rifle with its shot and bullet pouch and powder flask. The floor is carpeted with a few remnants of well-worn carpet with several home-made rugs. On a stand near one of the 236 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. windows are some papers, a few old letters, a pen and some ink. On the window sill is a mouth organ and near by hang-ing on the wall, an accordion. All this seems to indicate that the hermit is a man of some education and a lover of music. Standing not far away from the main dwelling house is a cave in which potatoes, apples, et cetera, are kept secure from heat and cold. Directly adjoining the cave is a wood house filled with small sticks of wood gathered round about the forest. On another side of the house proper is an unwalled well about seven feet deep which supplies the hermit with an abundance of pure soft water, agreeable to his physical constitution, as he says. So much now for his home, but let us inquire here, who is this strange old man who has chosen this lonely life in the woods ? He is a German, born in Germany. Listen and you shall hear the story of his life and the reasons for his being here. His name is Jacob Thomas. He sprang from poor but honest, hard-working parents living in the neighborhood of Mannheim in the valley of the Rhine. In 185 1, when the boy was ten years old, he with his parents emigrated to America and located near Germantown, Pennsylvania, where they lived and toiled on a little farm till their son had grown quite to manhood. He was their only child, and at once the comfort and joy of their heart. Every sacrifice was made, many pri-vations were endured in order that the boy Jacob might obtain a fairly good American education, and thereby be fitted to com-pete successfully with his fellow men in the busy life of our nation. But, alas, the scourge of smallpox visited the eastern part of the state, and of the hundreds it laid low in death, were the loving mother and faithful father of Jacob Thomas. The son also was attacked by the leveling epidemic but after a se-vere siege of suffering, he came out victorious over the disease, with its many marics and traces on his face. Poor young fel-low! he was now an orphan, left alone in the world, and scarcely eighteen. Henceforth the battle of life was placed entirely in his own hands. His education could not be finished ; his only support was gone. It seemed to him as if his whole future THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 237 would be blighted and full of sorrows and suffering. He dis-posed of the meagre personal property for a small amount of cash, wandered into Philadelphia and buried himself in the populous mass of that large city. He remained there almost a month, doing whatever he could find to do. At last fortune favored, and he obtained a permanent position on board the merchant vessel, Boswell, which was then engaged in the car-rying trade between Philadelphia and Liverpool, England. Ja-cob remained on the sea ten long years. It was a straining life, full of toils and hardships, as well as extreme wickedness and ungodliness. Though thinking often of his sainted mother and godly father who were now in Paradise, yet the temptations were so strong that he fell a victim to the snares and vices of the sailor's life and learned to curse and drink liquor. Twice he escaped death in shipwreck; once off the coast of Ireland and again, off the coast of Virginia. Both times he was saved on the wreckage floating about till rescued by the life-saving ser-vice. Shortly after the last wreck at sea, he quit the ocean, and wandered back into the land of his nativity where he joined the German ranks in the famous Franco-Prussian war in 1871. Here he fcught as a common soldier for Germany ten months, and came out with a severe wound in the left shoul-der, but a better man morally In spite of the worldly in-fluences of camp life, while in the military service he had a vivid consciousness of the sinful life he had been living for ten con-secutive years. He reflected on the innocence of his youth and the teachings of his mother; he thought on the goodness of divine providence in preserving and protecting his life in the storms and adversities experienced thus far in his life, and he was thankful to God for his care. He became penitent and sorry for the degenerate, sinful life he had been leading hitherto. Then and there he determined to change his course and return to the beautiful Christ-life which he had abandoned when he went to sea. He ceased cursing and drinking and many other evil habits he had been practicing, and surrendered himself wholly and completely to truth, sincerity and piety. It was a 238 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. remarkable change and marks the beginning of the life he has lived ever since. The Autumn of 1873 found him in the city of New York working on a ferry boat. Not long afterwards he married Jane Gorlity, the love of his youth, and immediately they came to Hanover, Pennsylvania, in order to get away from the crowded city life which he so much detested. Here they lived peace-ably and happily together many years. Their love and af-fection for each other was intense—only strengthened by time. No couple was ever better mated and none lived more agree-ably and found so much pleasure in each other's presence. All who knew them admired them for their simplicity and true-heartedness. But, alas for the separations of Death! He came with his keen sickle and cut the beautiful wife down in the very prime of life and left poor Jacob alone once more in the world. Wounded deep with grief and cast down in sadness, he no more found peace and pleasure among the men and women of his town. He longed for a retreat, a solitude where he could shut himself in from the outer world and spend the remainder of his days alone in quiet meditation in some spot unfrequented by noisy men and prattling children. He left Hanover in quest of such a place and finally located among the pines and rocks on Wolf's Hill, near the historic town of Gettysburg. THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 239 'PEACE ON EARTH." H. S. L., '03. ONE more week till Christmas, he thought, and the thought was followed with a sigh. The young man who had been so happy a few months ago when he led his bride to their new home sat melancholy and despondent before the open fire. "She thinks I am rich, but, oh, if she only new the truth. My debts are now greater than I can stand." He heard a soft step at the door which put an end to these thoughts. "One more week till Christmas, my dear, and you haven't told me a thing about our plans. You've forgotten it, no doubt." "O, no," he answered, "I have a surprise." She gave a short laugh and left him alone. He was more dejected than ever. "It's a shame to treat her so. O God, if I only had the heart to tell her!" The fire burned brighter, he grew more thoughtful and began to plan. "Ha! I've got it. What do I care. She doesn't like it, but she doesn't need to know where I get it, or how I get it." A moment later he had put on his overcoat and hat, and was walking rapidly away from the house. The air was frosty and the snow crunched under his feet, the city was brilliantly lighted and shop windows glittered with beautiful things for Christmas. He saw none of them but kept his eyes steadily fixed before him till he came to the club house. A few men were smoking and reading, others chatting and drinking. "Come, let's have a game," said he to one of them. "I need some money." "Ha! Ha! you do, well I guess so after your last game. I don't blame you; come on." This annoyed him somewhat but he took it all and laughed perfunctorily. He played a good game of cards but was rather nervous that night. "How's that," he said, when when he took in the first trick. The other kept silent. One game ended, he had good luck, made a little money, just enough*to put him in a reckless mood. Then was the other's chance, he played a fast and care-ful hand, not the slightest bit of success did Jean have. It 240 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. was going hard. The other had begun to speak, to tease, to annoy. "You cheat, you rascal, the devil take it. You, I mean." He grew more and more reckless. The other taking in his tricks and piling up his borrowed money, laughed heart-ily. Jean also pretended to make light of ill luck. He played harder, grew more reckless and flew into a higher temper. The other's jokes were too much, he was tired of jeering. "There, the devil take it," he said, as he slapped down the last cent of borrowed money. The other put the gain into his pocket, jeering and laughing. They were left alone. One word of in-sult and the other gave him a blow that brought him to the floor. He quickly regained himself and in an instant he flew at his opponent. For a few moments they dodged each other's . blows and then the fight grew harder and harder, the other had the advantage for a while, but in a sudden rage grabbed the throat of his opponent and both fell to the floor. He clutched tighter and tighter and with both feet kneeled on his breast. The other released his grip, his eyes turned to a glassy stare and gave a few short gasps. Jean rose and looked at him. The money lay all over the carpet amid bits of broken glass and overturned chairs. Jean gathered it up and walked to the door. He paused a moment and looked at the pros-trate form white and cold, then slammed the door and hast-ened away. Once out in the street he walked to the limits of the city. His heart still beat with the frenzy of the combat. He paused a moment and gazed wildly about him. He fancied that every one he saw walking near him was acquainted with the crime and had come to seize him. Alarmed at the thought he took to his heels and ran. Still the face of his victim haunted him, he heard the last gasps for breath, saw the hands wildly clutch-ing the air; every bush in the darkness seemed to take the form of one he had so cruelly murdered and filled him with terror. On he ran as if pursued by some demon untill breath-less he stopped. He was two miles into the country. The snow was falling and a high wind was blowing it into deep drifts. The gleam of a light from a cottage in the dis- THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 241 tance attracted him and almost sensless he dragged himself to-ward the spot. They heard him fall against the door and a man came out and carried him to the fire. When he awoke he found himself in strange quarters. Not knowing how he got there he fancied himself captured, and ut-tered a cry of alarm. The man and wife came to render assist-ance but he would not speak, the face of his victim haunted him, he gazed wildly about and then in a sudden impulse he thrust open the door and rushed out into the night. * * * * * * * $ The winter passed and Spring found him poverty stricken and in rags—a reclues, a self-condemned man far from home. Then followed a period of reflection. He thought of her whom he had wronged. Of his past life. How unfaithful he had been. Why did he not tell her all ? He would go back, con-fess his wrong, and if she could love him again would try to make her happy. By Fall he was again in the city. He passed the large club house where he had committed the deed. No one knew him now; he was in rags. For a few moments he paused and looked into the window. There sat the same old fellows that he had known so well, smoking and laughing. His heart fell and he pressed on towards the house. As he neared it his heart beat faster and faster. How could he approach her? Slowly he ascended the steps and rang the bell. A colored servant answered and demanded his card. He asked for her mistress but she refused him entrance. He persisted and was presently taken from the spot by a policeman. Still he de-manded entrance, insisting that it was his home. The police-man inquired and found that the lady who had inhabited the house a year ago had gone to her father's house. Jean sought her father. Her father met" him and recognized him. "You! how can you ask for her? You! you brought her to her grave. You were false, you betrayed her. Villian! be gone!" He walked slowly away and sobbed audibly. What was life to him now. He had better never have returned. Sad and 242 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. dejected he went into the slums. In a few weeks he was a hostler in one of the large city stables. Almost daily some of his club fellows came for horses but he never could look at them, much less speak. He suffered humility in silence. Once or twice some of his fellows thought they recognized him, but he pretended not to notice them. Life was misery, there was no good in the world, not even sleep brought him peace. At night when he lay on his couch in the stable loft the deeds of the past came upon him ; he could not banish them. He was guilty of two murders. ******* * It was early on Christmas morning. The sun was not yet up. Jean could not sleep, he had passed a wretched night. In order to get away from himself he walked down through the large street of the city. Even at this early hour the street was crowded with people; why this was he could not as yet determine. But he followed the crowd, eager for something to deaden the voice of conscience. While he was thus reflecting the "Notre Dame" appeared in the distance. This explained the cause of the crowd on the street at this early hour. But what was the church to him ? He hadn't been in it for years. He hated the church. Never would he darken its doors. He came nearer and heard the sound of the great organ softly playing. He saw the light gleaming through the stained glass windows. But he hated it all. The people were crowding into the Cathedral and Jean standing without was carried reluctantly by the great throng into the church. He took a scat in a dark corner behind a large marble col-umn. The church was not yet fully lighted and he did not care to be recognized. Presently the altar was a blaze of light. The music changed to more measured notes. The priests in gorgeous vestments came forth and bowed down before the high altar. A boy's clear soprano notes rang out over the vast congregation, "Ky- THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 243 rie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison." The high mass had begun. He listened for a few moments, enraptured by the scene, half repel-lant, half repentent. The whole choir joined in perfect harmony "Kyrie Eleison." The music changed to a minor strain and an alto sang in plain-tive tones "Christe Eleison." All about him were devoutly praying, but he sat still and stolid,-fighting his better nature. The celebrant from the high altar chanted forth in sonorous tones "Credo in unum patrem Deum." The choir answered in majestic movement and began the second chorus of the Mass. Jean sat there dazed, a feeling of wild unrest came over him, the lights danced before his eyes. The music grew grander and grander, ever rising in power till it reached a climax. A short pause followed, the organ modulating the while when the choir sang softly the words "Et Homofoetus est." The whole congregation fell upon its knees and Jean scarcely conscious of what he was doing knelt down with them. All through the Mass he knelt, absorbed in prayer, paying no attention to the seryice till he was interrupted in his meditation by depart-ure of the people with the notes of the "Dona Nobis" dying away in the distance. Jean did not join the crowd. The silent church was better. He meditated. A priest crossing the altar seeing him there alone came to to him, in the hope that he might assist him. They spoke for a few moments and then entered the confessional. He was silent for some time, he could not speak, words failed him. "Take heart my son, I am waiting," said the priest. I want to confess murder he said in stifled tones. "Murder," said the priest horrified. "You can't confess that to me; take that to the law." "But I can comfort,perhaps; let me hear." Jean related the past and the priest listened attentively- What! you ! exclaimed the priest, interrupting the confession- Jean paused and the priest came to him. He crouched back in the corner half afrighted. My son, said the priest I can for give murder; I am that man. Jean sprang to his feet and em- 244 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. braced him. Tears filled the eyes of both. "Rejoice, my son, your sins are forgiven." "Offer thanks to our common deliv-erer," he said, departing. Jean watched his form slowly disap-pearing in the distance and then fell upon his knees. The light burned steadily before the altar, the rays of the morning sun shone through the cathedral windows. And as he knelt there that beautiful Christmas morn Jean realized for the first time in his life the meaning of "Peace on earth, good will towards men. THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY Entered at the Postofficc at Gettysburg as second-class matter Vot, XI GETTYSBURG, PA., JANUARY, 1903 No. 7 Editor-in-chief II. S. LEWARS, 'O Assistant Editors Exchange Editor Miss MARY WILSON, '04 SAM. P. WEAVER, '04 LYMAN A. GUSS, '04 Business Manager . XT . "_. ' , Advisory Board NORMAN A. YEANY, '03 "».,/', -^ PROF. J. A. HIMES, LITT.D. Asst. Business Manager PROF. G. D. STAHXKY, M.D. FRED. MASTERS, '04 PROF. J. W. RICHARD, D.D. Published each month, from October to June inclusive, by the joint literary societies of Pennsylvania (Gettysburg) College. Subscription price, one dollar a year in advance; single copies 15 cents. Notice to discontinue sending the MERCURY to any address must be accompanied by all arrearages. Students, Professors and Alumni are cordially invited to contribute. All subscriptions and business matter should be addressed to the Busi-ness Manager. Articles for publication should be addressed to the Editor. Address THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY, GETTYSBURG, PA. EDITORIALS. .■ . " , Most people think it a wise thing at the begin- A NFW YEAR'S V r & & RESOLUTION. n;ng 0f ^c new vear to reflect on past actions and to resolve to do better things in the future. So let us profit by the example of these people and resolve upon a few things at the beginning of the new term. Yet far be it from us to act as some are wont to do who make good resolutions and straightway forget not only that they have re-solved but what they have resolved to do. Or even as is the custom of certain learned bodies to draw up such documents in written form and consign them to such places of safe keep-ing where they will annoy no one. But let us first think upon some good thing and do it. Let us then as a student body resolve to take more interest in all the departments of college activity. 246 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. Why cannot Gettysburg College have a creditable track team ? Have we lost all interest in track athletics ? Let us lend a hand and strengthen some of these weak departments of athletics. But even of more importance than this is to resolve to support the college publications better than ever before. It is a crying need among editors that they cannot do what they should like to do. Not because the publication is not supported financially but for lack of good material. If it once entered the minds of students that these papers were theirs to uphold and therefore in a certain sense to man-age we might hope for better things. Now let us resolve that we will support the monthly better. When the number does not come up to our ideals then let us make it a point to improve it by our own efforts. Too often, alas, the editor must publish just what he can get. It then follows that literary standards must be low among us if our monthly is an expression of our ability in such work. Let us resolve to do better and the day will be near at hand when we shall see its good results. AN EXPLANATION. It has been the custom for years to omit the publication of a January number of this magazine. But owing to a delay in the issue of the December number through lack of force at the printer's, it seemed well to the managers to publish a January number instead of a De-cember number. We sincerely regret this delay and trust that it will meet with not too harsh censure from our readers. EXCHANGES. DURING the past few months the matter of criticising has been much discussed by several of our exchanges. Some of them claim that too many compliments are offered by the dif-ferent editors and that not enough real criticism is given, while others maintain that the average exchange editoris not capable of justly criticising the work of his fellow students. Both are THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 247 right to a certain degree. It is true that many journals are complimented that are not deserving of praise. On the other hand almost all who do offer critical reviews are either partial or not in a position to make such criticism. We agree with the Buff and Blue that it is often "wisest to report only on the meritorious article." Criticism may be offered in a general way to advantage, but when it descends to the level of mere fault finding the advice is not only not heeded by the one for whom it is given, but is often refuted thus causing an unfriend-ly feeling to arise between the different journals. This month two exchanges came to our table that were es-pecially prominent in this respect. The one took over two pages to criticise an article that was not as long as his crit-icism. If the article was so poor as the editor would make it, it was certainly not worthy of such a lengthy refutation. About the other there is no question. The writer is partial from the very beginning. During his elaborate argument he speaks of the heresy of Luther and makes many other state-ments that show the narrowness of his comment. The article closes with the haughty statement that "Doubtless he is a Freshman and before he finishes his course he will learn a lit-tle history and then he will make statements which startle the printers who set them in type." Shall we call that a just criti-cism? Does it show a spirit of impartiality or "down-right rottenness" on the part of the writer? Fellow editors, you may answer the questions for yourselves, and in the meantime per-mit us to reply in the author's own manner and say that the writer is not a Freshman, but, judging from the thought and construction of the above sentence, has as much ability and judgment as the editor who makes the inquiry. The Georgetown College Journal is one of our best exchanges. The November number contains two good contributions, "The Rise and Growth of the District of Columbia," and "In the Thrilling Days of '64." We wish to apologize to the Journal for making use of the poem, to which they called our attention, without giving them due credit. It was not done intentionally but was merely an oversight on our part. THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. "There's a jubilee in Love-laud When the College widows wed, And young Cupid rests from labor, Slumbering on his rosy bed. All the powers of Olympus Laugh and wonder how 'twas done, Drinking healths to Cupid For the folly and the fun. "fisn't every year it happens That a victim's landed sure, And there's many an arrow blunted, Many a crafty well-planned lure, Ere the marriage vow is spoken That the wily students dread; But the patron saints of wooing Turned this foolish student's head — There's a jubilee in Love-land When the college widows wed."—Ex. The Ursinus Weekly seems at last to have assumed a defin-ite form. Whether the new departure has been for the best re-mains to be seen. The literary number for October, however, contains a very interesting and well written story "The Other Side." The poem, "The Corn Harvest," is also good. The Wittenberger is one of our new exchanges. It comes to us from Springfield, Ohio, and contains some good articles. It could be greatly improved, however, by keeping the material separate from the advertisements and by giving more attention to the development of its exchange department. The little brook with pleasing murmur glides Thro' meadows bright by woodlands shadowed o'er, Its waters clear o'er rounded pebbles pour, Kissing with gentle touch its teeming sides. Thus calmly on it goes with eddying tides, No foaming waves, no rising billows roar, But ever on as softly as before Mid golden sands, where'ere its channel guides. O would that thus life's rough and devious stream, With all its storms, its tempests and its care, Flowed as a babbling brook so peacefully; While I, like one in rapture and in dream, Might float upon its swelling bosom fair Into the haven of Eternity.—Ex. THESE FIRMS ARE O. K.—PATRONIZE THEM. The Intenollepfe Bureau or flcademis fiostnme. Chartered igoz. Cotrell 5* I^eonard^ makers of the Caps, Governs and Hoods To the University of Pennsylvania, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Cornell, Columbia, University of Chicago, University of Min-nesota, Leland Stanford, Tulane, University of the South, Wel-lesley, Bryn Mawr, Wells, Mt. Holyoke and the others. Illustrated Bulletin, Samples, Etc., upon request. 4. (§. (Spalding & @ros., Largest Manufacturers in the World of Official Athletic Supplies. Base Ball Lawn Tennis Golf Field Hockey JitMetic Implements. Spalding's Catalogue of Athletic Sports Mailed Free to any Address. A. G. Spalding &c Bros. NEW YORK - . CHICAGO - - DENVER - - BUFFALO - - BALTIMORE HELP THOSE WHO HELP US. THE STEWART & STEEN CO. Oollege UlrigTCUveTs and (pTinte~rs 1034 Arch St., Philadelphia, Pa. MAKERS AND PUBLISHERS OF Commencement, Class Day Invitations and Programs, Class Pins and Buttons in Gold and Other Metals, "Wedding Itivitations and Announcements, At Home Cards, Reception Cards and Visiting Cards, . Visiting Cards—rlate and 50 cards, 75 cents. Dj {Special Discount to Students. N. A. YEANY, Gettysburg College Representative. A Market Square, HARRISBURG, PA. Eates $2.00 per day and up. Special Eates for Commercial Men. Large and convenient Sample Rooms. 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The improvements to our Studio have proven a perfect success and we are now better prepared than ever to give you satisfactory work. Manufacturers of high grade Fraternity Emblems Fraternity Jewelry Fraternity Novelties Fraternity Stationery Fraternity Invitations Fraternity Announcements Fraternity Programs Wright, %j \ Co. 140-144 Woodward Avenue, DETROIT, MICH. Send for Catalogue and Price List. Special Designs on Application. Partridge's Athletic Goods. For Base Ball, Basket Ball, Tennis, Hockey, Track and ■ Gymnasium use. Managers should write at once for Catalogues and confidential quo-tations We manufacture Sweaters, Jerseys, Tights, Caps, Pennants, etc. Illustrated Catalogues Free. ROBERT LENKER, Agent, Gettysburg College. Horace Partridge & Co., 84 FRANKLIN ST. BOSTON, MASS. EMIL ZOTHE COLLEGE EMBLEMS Engraver, Designer and Manufacturing Jeweler, 716 CHESTNUT ST., - PHILADELPHIA. SPECIALTIES : Masonic Marks, Society Badges, College Buttons, Pins, Scarf Pins, Stick Pius and Athletic Prizes. All goods ordered through PHILIP BIKLE, JR. SEFTON & FLEMMING'S LIVERY Baltimore Street, First Square, Gettysburg, Pa. Competent Guides for all parts of the Battlefield. Arrangements by telegram or letter. Look Box 257. d

5w t^-ui^ & JUNE!, 1897. ISIIIiD BY THE STUDENTS OF I ENNSYEVANIA (GETTYSBURG) COEEEGE. TlNEL, G£!TYSgURS, tk. /^ ADVKRTISKMKNTS. fill JL fllitltifi liiis, Importers and Jobbers of «IDRUGS,»» Nos. 16 and 18 W. German Street, BALTIMORE, Offer to the trade their large and well-selected stock of I Make a specialty to have on hand everything required vby Pharmacists. A complete stock can at any time be selected or wants supplied. ALQNZQ L. THOMSEN,^ RACE, WIUDEII, SHAM? AND LEADENHALL STS., P. O. Box 557, Baltimore, Md. I beg to call to th3 attention ot the Trade that I have re-cently added to my Plant a complete set o£ Drug Milling Ma-chinery o£ the most Improved pattern. 8. B, KITZITJLLBR, HATS, CAPS, ^ ^ BOOTS*SHOES. G^Satisfactlon Guaranteed.=£S5"J No. 6 S. Baltimore Street, GETTYSBURG. PA. Accumulated Wealth, Laying up of riches isn't the only thing in life, fof fre-quently a sour disposition is the result. 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PHILADELPHIA, CHICAGO. 1108 CHESTNUT STREET, PHILADELPHIA Xl/right's Qngrav/ng ^J^fouse Pj^AS become the recognized leader in unique styles of *£ COLLEGE and FRATERNITY EN- \GRAVINGS and STATIONERY, College and ■Class-Day Invitations, engraved and printed from steel plates; Programmes, Menus, Wedding and Reception ■Invitations, Announcements, etc., etc. Examine prices i and styles before ordering elsewhere. pO Visiting Cards frcm New Engraved Plate for $1.00. ERNEST A. WRIGHT, tf Chestnut >S'tream. ] SEASON. NEWS DEPOT & SUBSCRIPTION AGENGY. IVIalri street, - - Gettysburg, F^a. SOLE MANUFACTURER OF DR. TYLER-S COUGH DROPS. SIMON J, C0D0RI, .DKALKR IN. BEKF, PORK, LAMB, VEAL, SAUSAGE, York Street, Gettysburg. e-Special Rates to Clubs.t) M&M&MS s BmNBmm* R. A. WONDERS' Cabinet Making, Corner Cigar {Parlors. PICTURE FRAMES, Baltimore street, Gettysburg, Pa. FURNITURE, .A FULL LINE OF. CIGARS, TOBACCOS, PIPES, &C, Scott's Cor. 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Prices to Suit ths Time'., "Webster's Send a Postal for Specimen Pages, etc. International Successor of theDictionary! 11 Unabridged." THE BEST FOR TEACHERS AND SCHOOLS BECAUSE IN THIS DICTIONARY It is easy to find the word wanted. It is easy to ascertain the pronunciation. It is easy to -learn what a word means. It is easy to trace the growth of a word. TJ. B. C-C number. The treacv.-c contril;: 2dlEnril of the TJ. S. Supremo Court, of all tho State Supreme Courts, of the vernment Printing Oilico, and of nearly all the Schoolbooks. Warmly com-by Stato Superintendents of Schools and other Educators almost ■without Pennsylvania School Journal s&ya .—The Internationa] Webster is a ; house of universal knowledge to "which all tho world, in r.ll Us ages, has made ijion, and any ono cf u3 may nave it at hi3 elbow. Of i.'3 fcr'.f hundred cpecial-jh cf value and importance, the most attractive to uai.ilis etymology, an un-source of interest and enjoyment, Often of surprise and -wonder.—OCTOBER, 1890. & C. I1ERRU9I CO., fublisners. Springfield, Mass. The College Metcuty. [VOL. V. GETTYSBURG, PA., JUNE, 1897. No. 4. :f.\ THE COLLEGE MEfiCUftY', [published each month during the college year by the Students of Pennsylvania (Gettysburg) College. IR. L. SMITH, '! |C. E. FLECK 'el. At Seminary. SUNDAY, MAY 30th. 10.30 A M.—Baccalaureate Discourse in College Church, to the Senior Classes of Seminary and College, by M. Valentine1, D. D., LL. D. MONDAY. 8.00 P. M.—Baugher Lecture on Christian Worship, in Semi-nary Chapel, by Rev. Dr. E. T, Horn, of Reading, Pa. I MONDAY, TUESDAY and WEDNESDAY forenoons, Examinations. WEDNESDAY. j 2.00 P. M.—Holman Lecture on Art. X, of Augsburg Confes-sion, in Seminary Chapel, by Rev. F. P. Manhart, of Baltimore, Md. ' 7,30 p. M,—Alumni Address, in Christ Church, by Rev. Victor Miller, Leitersburg, Md. THURSDAY. 1 9.00 A. M.—Meeting of Board of Directors. 17.30 P. M.—(traduating Exercises in Christ Church, Addresses by Several Members of the Class and Conferring Diplomas. LITERARY. WAS LESSING RIGHT ? BY REV. EDWIN HEYL DELK. Mr. John Fiske writing his essay on Les-. sing's "Nathan the Wise," in 1868, said: "The fame of Lessing is steadily growing. Year by year he is valued more highly and valued by a greater number of people. And he is destined, like his master and forerunner Spinoza, to receive a yet larger share of men's reverence and gratitude when the philosophic spirit which he lived to illustrate shall have become in some measure the general posses-sion of the civilized part of mankind " I confess to a very warm admiration for the man, and for much of his critical work in art and literature. Lowell's characterization is so ipt, that I would not mar it by an attempt at •esh expression. He says : "In the history if literature it would be hard to find a man so italwart, so kindly, so sincere, so capable of ;ieat ideas, whether in their influence on the intellect or the life, so unswervingly true to e truth, so free from the common weakness his class. Since Luther, Germany has given lirth to no such intellectual athlete, no son so ■erman to the core. Greater poets she has ad, but no greater writer; no nature more I finely tempered." Much of Lessing's work is still significant. His early attacks on the pedantry of poor Gottsched's French classicism, his denial of Corneille and Ractne as proper models for the German drama, his seizure of the secret of ] Greek sculptural expression, was all true and I enduring work. His leadership in the true classical revival was healthful. His contribu-tion to Germany's awakening national life, in his dramas of Mina and Emilia, was ennobling and abiding. For all this critical and con-structive work-, he had an established basis in thought. His service in this sphere of intel-lectual life was constructive, and ended in something specific and satisfactory. Even his critical disputation with the irate theologian Goeze, was helpful to genuine scholarship, de-spite its negative results, because, it was, at heart, a fight for freedom of Biblical investiga-tion. But, if as a man, and a critic of art and lit-erature he still holds so large a place in mod-ern thought; as a thinker on ultimate prob-lems, I do not believe, Mr. Fiske to the con-trary, that Lessing's philosophical spirit is sat-isfactory to serious men of either the religious, or scientific type. Lessing's memorable trib-ute to *the inherent superiority of the search for truth, to the truth itself, is a brilliant ex-pression of his philosophic spirit. "Not the truth of which any one is, or supposes himself to be, possessed, but the upright endeavor he has made to arrive at truth, makes the worth of a man. For not by the possession, but by the investigation, of truth are his powers ex-panded, wherein alone his ever-growing per-fection consists. .Possession makes us easy, indolent, proud. If God held all truth shut in his right hand, and in his left hand nothing but the ever-lasting instinct for truth, though with the condition of forever and ever erring, and should say to me 'choose!' I should bow humbly to his left hand, and say, 'Father, give ! pure truth is for Thee alone !' " In the first half of this confession of his philosophic attitude, Lessing expressed a noble 65 THE COLLEGE MERCURY. fact—the worth and joy of intellectual con-quest. But, to declare that endless bafflement, in the search for truth, is the thinking man's true paradise, is contrary to the aim of both genuine science and religion. Life and eter-nity are facts too momentous for us mortals to be forever playing blind-man's-buff in. Truth for Lessing was not a fixed point, it was only an endless advance toward such a point. To have arrived there, he declares, would have been a disappointment. Was Lessing right? This attitude in his philosophy of life arose from a limitation of his nature. Lessing was preeminently a critic. His dramas, though full of action, lack inspiration. He had poetic and constructive ability, but for any probing into that realm beyond the palpable phenom-ena of life, or any emotional craving for a spiritual transformation through worship of the divine—to both the scientific and religious quest for ultimate truth, he was largely Pagan. It is one thing to believe with a regretful agnosticism, that the ultimate force behind all phenomena is unknowable, and to declare with Lessing, that we would rather have the search, than to meet the eternal mystery face to face. And yet, many of Lessing's admirers claim him not only as a theist, but as a Christian, and this, despite his declaration to Jacobi, in 1780, that he was a disciple of Spinoza—the master pantheist. Just how such different views of Lessing's Christianity arose becomes clear if we keep in mind what he considered Christian, and what the best minds have cen-tered on as the essence of the Christian faith. To understand Lessing's satisfaction with the endless search for truth we must discover his idea of religion and Christianity. For him, there was no absolute religion. All religions contained truth, as much truth as the age, in which they were helpful, could apprehend. As the different races progressed in intellectual and moral culture, their theologies and moral-ity became more spiritualized and considerate. The noblest expression of the religious life, he found in Judaism, as expanded by Jesus. Les-sing claimed to believe in the religion of Jesus, but not in the Christ of Christianity. It was the religion of "goodness," which Jesus taught, that always commanded his reverence. Berthean says: "If this so called religion of Christ is the true Christianity, then' Lessing was certainly a true Christian, a Protestant in the full sense of the word ; and he has carried further the work of Luther. But if on the other side, those are right, who. on the in-stance of Schleiermacher, consider the personal relation to the person of the Saviour, and not the doctrinal system, as the essence of Chris-tianity, then Lessing was, in spite of the deep veneration which he always nourished for Jesus of Nazareth,rnot a Christian man." Still, in his "The Education of the Human Race," his last religious testament, Wackernagel, Stirm and others think they have discovered a decided progress towards Christianity. The truth seems to be, that, even at the end of his life, Lessing's theological standpoint was still in the process of formation; that is, unfinished, unsettled. I can not help but feel that this Wandering Jew choice is neither sane, nor pro-found. Making all allowance for St. Paul's; vivid conviction of Christianity's truth, the attitude of Lessing recalls the Apostle's de-scription of certain Greeks who "were ever learning, but never able to come to a knowl-edge of the truth." Christ insisted upon calling himself "The Truth." The central truth of Christianity is neither its ethics, nor its body of divinity, hut the personal Christ—the supreme revelation ol God's person and love. For the ethics of Jesus, and His spiritual kingdom, Lessing had unbounded admiration. But admiration is lid adoration. That the highest truth is incar-nated in a perfect personality, Lessing seems] to have missed. Here, at the heart of Christ we are promised, and do receive, rest; after the-long quest for truth. Augustine, who ffl quite as profound, and as well acquainted witt life as Lessing, was glad to end his search ifl the rest of God through Christ Jesus. M man who prefers an endless quest for infiuil THE COLLEGE MERCURY. 66 [mystery, to a vitalizing' Communion with the [soul of Jesus is, I fear, doomed to struggle on [forever into the mocking gloom of an endless night. « ♦ » CHARLES DANA GIBSON AND HIS DRAWINGS. ' his I \\::: .led, this] pro-1 ml'sl the I del l'\Y IV,'.- Thel tyisl , but] DIIO!| :s ■hi Is noil (near leeii'l fcrri: |r tbel vn I ffiffl ii i: Anl llini: Mr. Gibson is without doubt the greatest I illustrator of the day. There seem to stand out, among the multitude of illustrative art-fists who are now making our literature doubly I interesting by their delightful pictures, two [.■whom the world acknowledges to be the fore- Imost, Charles Dana Gibson, of the United [States, and Phil May, of England. Of these, [Mr. Gibson, by general consent, holds the first iplace in the eyes of the English as well as the : American people. For us Americans at least, there would be no great difficulty in saying why Mr. Gibson has thus received this preference over Phil May. While the drawings of Mr. May, dealing as they do, with the children of the poorer class of England, are delightfully unique | types of the London street urchin, yet they seem to lack that refined tone notice-able in all of Mr. Gibson's work. It is a marked feature in the work of many illustrators that the excellence of their execu-tion varies from time to time. Not so with [our artist. True, we ma}7 say of one of his [drawings, as in contrast with another, "This is better ;'' but when we analyze our reason why ye think so, it comes out every time that it was j the subject matter, and not the execution of it, that lead us to say, "This is better." This leads to the remark that Mr. Gibson's 'ideas" for his pictures, blending with his charming manner of execution, constitute the jreat attractiveness of his work. This is es-pecially noticeable in his work for "LIFE." ■Sis centre double page drawings in this pub-lication are always the expression of some up-to- date, interesting idea or fashionable folly; portrayed for us in a realistic and impressive vay that words could never do. He seems to Jo more head work than any of his contempo-raries, and it is this that interests us so greatly in his work. In the last few years he has confined him-self, besides his work for "LIFE," to the illus-trating of stories, chiefly those of Mrs. Burton Harrison and Richard Harding Davis, to those of the latter to a greater extent in recent years. The charming adaptability of Mr. Gibson's drawings to Mr. Davis' stories is but another expression of the close friendship and similar-ity of thought existing between the two men. It has been said of Richard Harding Davis and his novels that they are "fresh, free, graceful and virile." They are four adjectives well chosen, and not one too many, and it is remarkable how perfectly transferable they are between the author and his personal friend, the artist. Both these men, in their several crafts, are, as every one knows, in exceptional degree interpreters of the cultivated life of our own immediate day and country, not with oversight of its foibles and vices, but also in all its young and joyous health and beauty, its improved understanding between the youth of both sexes, its manly and womanly natural-ness, the kindness of its sun-and-breeze gayety and candor, and the unparaded earnestness of purpose and principle which so frequently un-derlies this laughing surface. This is said with Mr. Gibson's work the more pointedly in mind, and but enumerates the characteristics which tend to give it its pre-eminent and uni-versal popularity. Doubtless a great proportion of Mr. Gibson's admirers are more familiar with his illustra-tions than with the personality of the artist. He is no less interesting than his drawings. Charles Dana Gibson is a tall, smooth-faced, athletic looking man, not yet thirty years of age. The impression he makes as he leans back in his chair and talks of art, books, travel and kindred matters is that of a man upon whom success has cast no pernicious influence, a man whose inherent modesty has not been destroyed by the applause of a noisy world; one whose own personality furnishes the naivete of his fascinating drawings. He is frank without being brusque, dignified but not ■'illi'-ii'.imwm 67 THE COLLEGE MERCURY. cold, self-poised but not egotistical. So says Van Zile, in Current Literature. Mr. Gibson is a student of literature, es-pecially liking Thackeray who understood art-ists. Yet of course, as an illustrator in heart-iest sympathy with the thought and feelings of his own times, he feels obliged to keep in touch with the best work of the day, and ex-presses great admiration for the work now be-ing done in fiction by several young American authors, prominent among whom, of course, he considers Richard Harding Davis. Van Zile says of him: A feature of Mr. Gibson's fame which must be a source of the happiest pleasure to him, is the unanimity with which writers, artists, critics, editors, and the great reading laity of all ranks and orders, concede his power and charm. There seems to be but one verdict as to his place as an artist. His technical skill, his concientious study of con-temporary life, his sympathetic insight, his charming ability to tell without violence to truth, what he wants to tell, while he leaves all else untold, and his absolute wealth in that indefinable but essential quality which gives the distinction of individuality to the work of an artist, have combined to set him, before he is yet thirty years of age, in the very front rank of contemporary illustrators. THE TREASURE OF LAKE DEMBEA. John Streslow, physician of Middlesex, was so fortunate as to be named sole heir to his grandfather's estate. John Streslow, senior, gave to his grandson, besides his money, a taste for travel, which that young man had hitherto been unable to gratify. Therefore, it was natural for him to be very happy over the prospect of years in foreign lands. The estate to which he had succeeded lay along the Hudson not far from New York, and, of course, before long Streslow, from his constant association with the men of the city, was elected a member of one of its leading clubs. His intention was to remain at home for a year, and then leave for an indefinite period. A strange find one day altered his purpose. While looking through his grandfather's papers he happened upon two rolls tied to-gether with a leather thong. The one was of parchment, and on it was a diagram of an in-terior portioii of Egypt, about the sixth cata-ract of the Nile, and some strange characters of a language unknown to Streslow. The other roll was of paper, and was a translation of the former, stating that by following the route laid down in the diagram, one would) find a kind of stone with the power of partially overcoming gravity ! To the young man, whose mind had always been of a scientific turn, this idea was especially captivating, and he at once determined to sail within the I month, and announced his intention at the| club next evening. "To Egypt?" asked a young fellow. ''Yes,I to Egypt," answered Streslow. "And I ain| going with a purpose; too." "Perhaps you will bring back a treasure,'11 suggested another sneeringly. "Perhaps," was Streslow's only reply. And so, about two weeks after, the men the club were somewhat surprised to find th their friend had persevered in his intention,! and that he had really sailed for Egypt. He took the shortest possible way and al-| lowed nothing to draw him away from grand object of his search. Three weeks afterl leaving home he found himself at Alexandria,! where he hired an intelligent guide, and niadel ready for his journey up the Nile. Theyl reached the village Senuar on the banks of tliel Blue Nile, and set out at once for Lake Demi bea among the Talba Waha Mountains. Theyl travelled alone, for fear of possible danga| should their errand be known. By following the chart carefully they their way but twice in all the twenty-fi«l miles. A week's travelling through mani difficult places and with varied adventures brought them to the grotto specified. It wa| a long, irregular opening in the side of a clifl just a little above the surface of a small pM I THE COLLEGE MERCURY. 68 • I iiatl all the! ifterl iri ladel 'till icivi lie; :igfl| lo| tanl Lire] id which ran down to the shore of the lake. AH remained outside while Streslow made some investigations. The entrance grew higher but [narrower as he advanced, and a short pas-sage way brought him to a large rock-hewn room. He called Ali to bring material for [lights, and soon the ceiling and walls were shining with many colored splendor. A nurn- Iber of rocks were strewn about. From the Barge room several passage ways led into [deeper recesses. Following the one indicated [Streslow soon came to a larger room than the prst, but the floor of which appeared to be tiled. [The rock seemed to be a kind of granite, with (very distinct white and black markings. With Ihis first step upon the level floor Streslow felt fa strange sensation of lightness. He nearly (fell forward on his face, and to save himself he [put his hand against a rock, which rolled [away from him like a hollow rubber ball. He leaped in the air and barely escaped knocking lis brains out against the roof of the cave. iHis weight was as nothing. He had found Ithe treasure ! And now taking two pieces or llayers of the rock, which was of much the jsame formation as slate, he made his way to the light again and back to Sennar. The chief and his people received him [kindly, crying in their language, "Hail, stranger," and conducted him to a hut near pat of the chief, where he was waited on by some of the chief's slaves. There were some sick in the village, and |hat evening just at sunset the priest of the ribe invoked the Sun God for them, standing upon a block of this wonderful stone. Both Bi and Streslow noticed it, and Ali scented danger, if they should be discovered, for he mew that the people considered this stone the rift of the Sun God himself, and they consid-ered that any one who did not worship him tiad no right to its possession. While lying in their hut that night, before ?oing to sleep, Ali was acquainted with the act that they should have to leave the village pder cover of the darkness. And when every-ting was still, and all were asleep, as they thought, the two stole forth toward the river. But one of the servants of the chief saw the stone, and a guard was set, so that the two men had hardly reached the river until all the village was aroused and in pursuit. Arrows and spears fell all around them as they made their way down stream, but fortunately they escaped safely, and before many days reached Alexandria. Streslow arrived at home in good time and that same night dropped in at his club, to the surprise and delight of his friends, who were at once eager to hear the account of his travels. Friday night of the same week was set for his story and for the exhibition of his "treas-ure," of which he had very briefly told them. When the time came the rooms were crowded, and at the proper time Streslow re-lated the incidents of his journey as we al-ready know them and exhibited the wonder-ful stone in regard to which there was so much expectancy. But, wonderful to state, whether on account of the influence of the at-mosphere of unbelief that pervaded the club, or from-some other cause, the stone had lost its power, and had it not been that Streslow was a man of untarnished reputation he would have been dubbed a second Muuchausen then and there. He gave them a speech instead of an experiment. "I am not to blame for the failure to-night. A month ago that stone did what I claimed for it. Perhaps the change in climate accounts for the loss of its power. But I am ready to take the tour to Egypt again, with any man or men to prove that there lies a wonderful power in the treasure of Lake Dembea." His words drew the applause of the mem-bers, but no one was willing, nor has anyone since been willing, to risk life and fortune merely for the sake of annoying nature. A girl, a wheel, A shock, a squeal, A header, a thump, A girl in a lump, A bloomer all torn, A maiden forlorn. ■■■■■■■^■■■■■■■■■■■iHHHBB 1 69 THE COLLEGE MERCURY. 'TEAGIC FEAGMENT (?)" "Men may come and men may go But I go on forever." "Boast on, oh dancing Tiber In this cheerless rainy weather ! But when this season passes, And the drought of summer comes, Or chilling blast of winter Your shallow stream benumbs; No more will voice be left you To sing your vaunted song ; No more be heard your boasting As you gaily prattle on." ******** Thus mused the college senior, In a vein so new and strange, And so very unaccustomed To his usual narrow range, That he stopped and slightly started From his state of sad depres-ion, That a hardened chap like he was To such thoughts should give expression, And should think it worth his while To abuse this little way-sb earn, Which had seemed almost too trifling To be subject of his day dream. Yet while he sought to chide it, As though a naughty elf, He knew, in cvcri/ sailertCe, He was thinking of—HIMSELF. COLLEGE LOCALS. C. E. FLECK and J. H. MEYER, Editors. Good Bye ! Exit Ninety Seven. Examinations—not "exams." Two straight games from State—we're all right. The Sophomores manifest the usual activity in collecting Botany specimens—they may be seen on the search for specimens almost any fine afternoon. One of them was heard to say he could analyze a flower in five minutes— quick work. "Earnie" has great difficulty in getting to-gether the members of the Athletic Associa-tion. This reminds us of some other things around here. Niels L. J. Gron, '93, who recently visited here, contemplates a course at Oxford. He is a firm friend of the MERCURY, and will write us something on University life there. The Freshman Glee Club have been recently dispensing their melodious strains over the campus. ' 'Music hath charms.'' We have now another track to cross at the Reading Depot as we go to meals. Surely there should be flagmen there now. Senior dignity is still more in evidence as Commencement approaches. We may look for a general cleaning of rooms this week. The duties and pleasures of the coming va-cation form an absorbing theme for thought just now. A Senior speaking of a certain game re-marked : "I would like to say confidentially that the chances for success are very probable." The members of the Omega Delta society have come out with new pins. They make a nice appearance. A Seminarian is now giving lessons in kick-ing. Lying on his back, he kept a swing at bay with his pedal extremities for fully five minutes. His dignity is the only thing that suffered from the experience. The real college life of old Pennsylvania be-comes more apparent as Spring advances. No matter how pressing work may be, the boys find time to linger on the campus for a few minutes before going to their rooms of an evening. This is one of the phases of college life which many of the Alumni remember with pleasure. It is a fine custom. In Physics one day, when the class was about to write a paper on the torsion of the wires holding two eggs, a bright fellow was heard to remark : "Which is the spoiled egg?" Dr. N. answered with a chuckle: "That will appear when your paper comes in." It was several degrees cooler for some minutes thereafter. Dr. S.—"Mr. K., what secretes the saliva?" K., '00—"The gastric juice." A nine from Seminary played the Sopho-more class team Saturday, May 22nd. The game was exceedingly interesting, but was without any special features, except error; Inasmuch as the runs on both sides were too many to be counted, no one tried to give an official score. It is but natural for us to feel somewhat east down in spirit when we learn that we shal have to work Ascension Day, this year. Itii only a church festival, but this is a church i& stitution, and no pressure of work ought to be allowed to displace service on that day. W should have at least half the day to ourselves. THE COLLEGE MERCURY. 70 at ve an itli The Seniors finished their work with an ex-amination Tuesday Morning, May 25th, and The course of '97 in college is ended. The Mass is jolly and jovial, and there is not a man in college who does not hate to see them leave lis. May they have much success in life, is the wish of the MERCURY. D., '00, (seeing posters announcing a straw- Berry festival)—"Is this Senior L. T. L. the Senior class of College or of Seminary ? '' From all accounts the new dormatories are kn assured fact. The buildings will be in the Kyle of English cottages, each a memorial to the donor. We understand that two are promised. These neat structures will improve the appearance of the campus very materially. ■)ne need not question the fact that Pennsyl-vania College is growing. I Prof. H.—"Mr. S., who were Hale and Arnold. S., '97—"Spies in the civil war, Professor." Platonic philosophy has confused "Perlie" on lates. . The '98 Spectrum has appeared at last, and Hie book is well worth waiting for. A marked lharacteristic of the book is its originality. I |he Spectrum reflects great credit upon the 1 Bass of '98. Earlier in the month an excursion party of '. jeologists- from the leading universities of | America, paid a visit to the battlefield in honor j H Sir Archibald Geike, the most eminent ge- i llogist of England. They were here only a I Jiort while and spent all their time viewing ! lie field. The Senior tour to the Euray Caverns did I jot materialize. Many expressions of regret ' have been heard. During the past week Professor Himes agree-ibly surprised the Sophomores, who were ut-rly unprepared for the recitation, by voluu-ering to give them a lecture on the "Edu-tional Value of Poetry." The lecturer was ven the strictest attention, and the favorable marks about it show that the class appreci-ed the talk very much. They would not be verse to spending many an hour in like man-lhe Businessmen's League, of Philadelphia, lent last Saturday and Sunday in town. They lid a short visit to the College, but spent lost of their time on the battlefield. Some in of influence in railroad circles accompa-lied the party. A few weeks ago a crowd of Freshmen vis-ited the "haunted house" near New Oxford, and spent the night there. There was much throbbing of hearts whenever squeaking of doors or windows would occur, and a general silence at louder noises. All the boys were not so timid, however, and some managed to sleep a while. Perhaps the number of visitors compelled the ghosts to withdraw, for there was no appearance of spirit forms. We ad-mire the nerve of the Freshmen. Some of the men of the College have taken to horticulture. The line upon which they ex-pend the most energy is raising onions. We very easily obtain a knowledge of this fact by means of the odors which exhale from the lungs of those engaged in the business, and by the tops of onions which are strewn through the halls a number of mornings in a week. Onions and fresh water crackers do taste good at night. The fact that we shall have examinations on Decoration Day is raising a great deal of feeling among the boys. Every hour of a National holiday is each man's own, to use as he desires. Of course we cannot have it other-wise than it has been decided. Perhaps next year we will have a holiday or two. Commencement week with its gayeties is casting its shadow before it, and is throwing its spell over the students. This is the com-ing season of the whole school year, and one is amply repaid for remaining. The week will be rendered livelier by class reunions, and other events of like character. Let all who can, remain. The concert by the Glee Club, on Tuesday night, will be better than it has been in former years. One can spend a pleasant evening listening to our own musical organizations and be well repaid. /\LUlV|Nl- R. L. SMITH and J. H. BEERITS, Editors. '40. D. J. A. Seiss' congregation, of Phila-delphia, will receive large bequests from the estate of the late Miss C. Shaeffer, a very wealthy heiress. By her will an eighth part of her estate goes to Dr. Seiss' congregation, to the Seminary, to Muhlenburg College and to missions. '41. Rev. Geo. Parson, D. D., of Sunbury, Pa., preached the dedicatory sermon on the 7i THE COLLEGE MERCURY. evening of April 25th, when the Grace Evan-gelical Lutheran church of Sunbury was dedi-cated. '46. W. M. Baum, D. D., of Phila., is president of the Board of the Northern Home for Friendless Children. At a recent meeting the finances of the institution were found to be on a firm basis. '47. Dr. L. E. Albert, of Philadelphia, rep-resented the Pastors' Fund at the Susque-hanna Synod, held at Watstown, Pa., May 4. '48. Over 30,000 copies of Dr. Conrad's edi-tion of Luther's Small Catechism have been issued by the Lutheran Publication House for the author. '49. An account of the death of Rev. Elias S. Henry was given in the last number of the MKRCURY. A few additional facts have been sent to us. He was a director of the Theolog-ical Seminary during the 70's; president of the East Penn'a Synod, 1875-76; never missed a Conference or a Synod; celebrated the silver jubilee of his pastorate, 1877, and celebrated the 40th anniversary of the same in 1892. '50. Dr. Valentine, of the Seminary, will preach the baccalaureate sermon to both the graduating class of the Seminary and College at the same time, Sunday, May 30th, in the College church. '53. Dr. W. F. Ulery was in town about the middle of the month on business. '53. Rev. A. H. Waters spends from Octo-ber to June in Florida, and holds services every Sunday in the beautiful church at Mel-rose. Melrose is one of the finest winter re-sorts in the South. '55. Rev. J. A. Kunkelman, D. D., pastor of St. Andrew's, at Atlantic City, extends, through the columns of the Observer, a most cordial invitation to all seaside visitors to wor-ship in his church, corner of Pacific and Mich-igan avenues. The Dr. will give you all a hearty welcome. '55. Rev. E. Huber, D. D., Prof, of English Bible, paid a beautiful tribute in the Lutheran Observer to the memory of Rev. E. S. Henry, '49, notice of whose death appeared in the last MERCURY. '56. Wm. M. Weidman, M. D., of Reading, Pa., was elected President of the State Medi-cal Society at it's meeting in Pittsburg, May 18th. Dr. Weidman is one of the most prom-inent physicians in the State, and is a man worthy of the high honor conferred upon him. '56. We were sorry to learn of the painful accident of Rev. H. W. Kuhns, Omaha, Neb., who broke an ankle bone recently. '56. Rev. B. E. Kramlich is pastor of the Topton, Berks County Union church. At a recent celebration of the quarto-centennial of the church a new organ was dedicated. '57. Dr. L A. Gotwald, a member of the Theological Faculty, Springfield, Ohio, re-cently gave an entertainment to the Senior theologians. '57. Dr. H. L. Baugher, President of the General Synod, delivered an excellent address to the Central Association of Luther Leagues, held at St. John's church, Pittsburg. '59. Rev. J. G. Gcettman suffered a para-lytic stroke while attending the Central Asso-ciation of Lutheran Leagues at St. John's church, Pittsburg. He is in a very precarious condition. '60. Rev. B. F. Apple, of Stroudsburg, Pa., established a Sunday school about 18 months ago, which resulted in the dedication of a church on May 9th. '60. Dr. H. M. Richards, of Allentowu, Pa., attended the recent conference, held at St. John's church, Nazareth, Pa. '61. A magnificent memorial window was unveiled in St. James' church. Rev. J. B. Remensnyder, D. D., pastor, during las! month. Dr. Remensnyder is very successful in his work. He delivered an address upon "Melancthon as Theologian," at the recent session of the Lutheran Conference of New York and New Jersey, held at Ramsey, N.J. '61. Rev. J. B. Remensnyder, D. D., of X. Y. City, had an article in the Lutheran Worli of May 13th, entitled, "That Transubstanti-ated Slander." The Doctor upholds his posi-tion in regard to the Lord's Supper and breab down false accusations that he teaches transub-stantiation. '63. Rev. M. Colver's church, at Galion Ohio, recently raised a large sum for thi famine sufferers of India. Rev. Colver vril preach the baccalaureate sermon to the gradu-ating class of the Galion high school on Suit da}' evening, June 13th. '64. Dr. F. L. Seip, of Allentown, Pa., sev.| eral weeks ago, preached a sermon and pet I THE COLLEGE MERCURY. 72 !SS formed the act of consecrating a splendid $1500 pipe organ to the St. Steven's church, Wilmington, Del. '65. Rev. Dr. J. C. Koller, pastor of the (First Lutheran church of Hanover, Pa., vis- [ited Gettysburg a few days ago. Dr. Koll-fer's congregation, of which he has been pastor [for over twenty years, numbers about a thou- [sand members and is active and flourishing. '65. Dr. H. W. McKnight has been away [several days during the past month working [among the friends of the College in the inter- Jest of the new dormatory. He has met with considerable success. '65. The Lutheran church at Greenvillage, Pa., has celebrated it's 50th anniversary this month. Dr. T. C. Billheimer, of the Theo-logical Seminary, preached the anniversary sermon on Sunday, May 16th. '66. The Sixth Annual Conference of the [Woman's H. and F. Missionary Society, was Iheld May 13, in Ziou's Lutheran church, iWayuesboro, Pa., of which Rev. H. S. Cook [is pastor. '67. At the recent Susquehanna Synod held lat Watstown, Pa., May 4th, Dr. Chas. Albert, ■of Philadelphia, represented the Publication House. '67. Rev. W. E. Parson, of Washington, D. IC, will spend his vacation in Maine this sum-uer. '67. Rev. C. J. Cooper, of Allentown, Pa., Iwas one of those who attended the conference {recently held at St. John's chirch, Nazareth, ?a. 67. Rev. D. K. Kepner, pastor of Emanuel Lutheran church, of Pottstown, Pa., died on lay 9th, from heart trouble and nervous pros-tration, after a severe illness. He was one of phe best known ministers of the Pennsylvania f>ynod. 68. The Indianapolis Journal praises very highly a sermon on Gen. Grant, preached re- |ently by Rev. D. L- McKenzie, pastor of the first Lutheran church of that city. '68. W. C. Stoever, Esq., has contributed |0 the May number of the Lutheran League Teview a very interesting article, entitled, ['The Passavant Memorial Hospital." It con-tains much information upon Lutheran institu- :ions of that nature and upon Mother Houses, 'stablished for training deaconesses, and shows their value to the church and their great gen-eral usefulness '69. Rev. J. A. Clute, D. D., President of Midland College, preached morning and even-ing on May 16, at the Woman's Memorial Mission, Council Bluffs, Iowa. '69. The Grand Army of the Republic of the Department of Colorado and Wyoming has unanimously elected Rev. J. W. Fiukbinder, pastor of the Lutheran church at Colorado Springs, as chaplain for the next year. '70. Thos. J. Stahle, editor of the Gettys-burg Compilei, who has been confined to the house this winter is recovering slowly. '72. The new Lutheran church at Vander-grift, Pa., Rev. J. W. Poffinberger, pastor, which, when completed, will be one of the handsomest churches in the Pittsburg Synod, will be dedicated on June 22nd. Rev. Pof-finberger deserves great praise for his success-ful work. '72. Rev. W. E. Fischer, of Shamokin, Pa., filled the the pulpit of the First Lutheran church at Watstown, Pa., on Sunday morning, May 9th. '72. Rev. J. A. Koser, of Sioux City, la., was assisted during Passion Week by Rev. H. L- Yarger, '63, of Whitewater, Kansas. '72. Dr. S. Stall's new book "What a Young Boy Ought to Know," is spoken of in commendatory terms by many eminent men. '73. To allow more time to prepare for meeting of Gen. Synod, Sec. W. S. Freas is making a number of exchanges, among whom were Rev. W. S. Hinman, of Columbia, and Rev. J. M. Riemensnyder, '70, of Milton. '73. Rev. Jeremiah Zimmerman, pastor of the Lutheran church at Syracuse, N. Y., is lecturer 0:1 numismatics in the Syracuse Uni-versity, a large and flourishing institution of that place. '73. Rev. J. F. Hartman, D. D., of Al-toona, Pa., represented one of the Boards of the church at the Susquehanna Synod, held at Watstown, Pa., May 4th. '74. St. Mark's church, Hanover, Pa., has given freely towards the relief of the Cold Springs church, and the pastor, Rev. C. M. Stock, has shown a very benevolent spirit also. '74. An interesting sketch of the Lutheran church, at Myersville, Md., has been published by the pastor, Rev. W. L. Remsburg, in The Guide of that place. '74. Charles A. Suesserott, Esq., of Cham-bersburg, was in town recently. 73 THE COLLEGE MERCURY. '75. Rev. E. D. Weigle, D. D., of Mechan-icsburg, spoke at the dedication of the First Lutheran church of Altoona, Pa., on Sunday, May 23rd. 77. G. W. Gross, Principal of York County Academy, has five boys ready for college next fall. The Academy has been a good feeder to our college. '77. Rev. J. J. Young, D. D., spoke upon "Melancthon's Life and Character" at the spring meeting of the Southern Conference of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, which con-vened at Ramsey, N. J., on May 17th. Dr. Young's congregation in New York City held services, on May 9th. in memory of Dr. A. C. Wedekind, '46, their former pastor, The Social Union (the young men's society organ-ized during the late Dr.'s ministry) remem-bered him especially by a beautiful and appro-priate floral offering. '78. Rev. O. C. Roth, President of Mary-laud Synod, filled the pulpit of the Trinity church, Taneytown, Md., on Sunday evening, May 9th. '78. Congressman Geo. J. Benuer visits the town as often as his legislative duties at Wash-ington permit. '78. Rev. C. L- McConnell, of Mifflinburg, Pa., will preach the baccalaureate sermon to the Seniors of Susquehanna University, at Selin's Grove, Pa. '78. Dr. W. C. Boteler, of Kansas, Mo., is now in Washington, D. C, and is a promising candidate for Auditor of the War Department. The Dr. is quite prominent, being editor of the North American Medical Review, and Secretary of the Kansas City Periodical Press Club. He is a son-iu-low of the late Secretary of War, George W. McCreary, of Iowa, who framed the compromise act that settled the threatened sectional clash in 1876. '79. Dr. A. C. Wentz, Hanover, Pa., was one of the prominent speakers who addressed the Convention of the State Medical Society that met in Pittsburg, May 18, 19 and 20. He has the distinction of being the fourth Vice President of the State Society. Dr. Wentz keeps thoroughly up to the times in every way, and thus comes to gain these well merited dis-tinctions. We wish him still greater success. '80. Prof. Daniel Fleisher, Ph. D., has just completed another very successful year as Superintendent of Public Schools at Wellsboro, Pa. Prof. Fleisher's reputation as a thorough and enthusiastic student of the Latin Classics is wide spread. '80. Rev. M. F. Troxell, D. D., pastor of Grace Lutheran church, of Springfield, 0., presided over a mass meeting held in the State Capitol of that city, for the purpose of raising funds and supplies to relieve the famine-stricken inhabitants of India, and his- conduct of the meeting and appointment of committees is highly commended by the Springfield Monitor and the Rcgistei. Rev. T. DeWitt Talmage made the principal address. Liberal donations were received. '82. Rev. A. R. Steck, pastor of St. James Lutheran church, of this place, will preach the baccalaureate sermon to the graduating class of Irving College at Mechanicsburg, on June 6th. '83. Rev. H. L- Yarger, of Whitewater, Kansas, made an address on the Board of Church Extension before the North-western Conference of the Kansas Synod, which con-vened May 4th, at Chapman. Kansas. '83. Rev. H. G. Buehler, Uakeville, Con., will edit the "Junior Notes" in the Augsbmd 7'eache? for June. No doubt they will give en-[ tire satisfaction as Mr. Buehler has the ability.! '83. Rev. C. W. Baker, York County Con-ference Missionary, is more than busy these! days getting churches ready for dedication,f laying of corner-stones and breaking ground. He is the man for the work and the place. '85. Rev. Reuben S. Stair, after some fivel or six years of faithful labor in the Kreutz! Creek charge. Hellain, York county, Pa., hasj offered his resignation, to take effect, June 1. '85. Rev. E. E. Hoshour, of Bellefonte, isal delegate to the General Synod from the Ceu-r tral Pennsylvania Synod of which body hen secretary. His work at Bellefonte, Pa., is pro-1 gressing successfully. ''85. Rev. Chas. T. Aikens, Vice Presidentl of the Central Pa. Luther League, will repre-F sent that body at the convention of the State! League, which will be held in Altoona, Junastor of the Protestant Episcopal church, of ■\)peka, Kan., on April 21st. '92. Rev. H.'E. Berkey, the successful pas-or at Red Lion, may well feel proud of the position he holds as editor of the York County v-.utheian. The paper is excellent and merits 11 ^earty support. 93- Report has it that City Solicitor Ara- »uou, of York, is the coming nominee of the ■e.B|Pemocratic party for Mayor of that, thriving iic Wf- I '93. At the recent meeting of the Juniata onference of the Central Pa. Synod, the fol-wing members of Gettysburg's banner class participated; Rev. A. J. Rndisill, Rev. J. M. puss and Rev. G. M. K. Diffenderfer. '93- The graduating exercises of the Belle-nte High School will prevent Prof. A. Reist Rutt from attending the reunion of his class during Commencement week. He will grad-uate a class of seventeen on the evening of June 3rd. He will enjoy his vacation with his class-mate, Rev. G. M. K. Diffenderfer, at Newport. '93. Niels L. J. Gron paid his Alma Mater a visit a short time ago. It will be remem-bered that Mr. Gron completed a trip around the world, last July, meanwhile making a specialty of studying international questions. In the recent presidential election he was ap-pointed by the Republican National Committee to work amongst the Scandinavians in the North-west, and he fulfilled his mission with such success that it is rumored he will be our National representative at the Danish court. He is now attending the reunion of his class at Harvard, and will also be present at the re-union of his class here during Commencement week. He will have an article in the July number of the Arena on "The French Consti-tution Compared with the English Constitu-tion." He may take a special course of study at Oxford University, England, next year. '93. Rev. Wm. H. Ehrhart has been in town several times lately, working up the re-union of the class of '93, to be held here dur-ing Commencement week. '93. Rev. E. E. Neudewitz took an active part in the work of the Southern Conference of New York and New Jersey, held at Ram-sey, N. J. Rev. Neudewitz has a very flour-ishing mission in Jersey City. '93. The members of the Luther League of the church of the Atonement, Rev. F. H. Knubel, pastor, recently purchased a hand-some pulpit Bible and presented it to the con-gregation. '93. The Luther League, of St. Mark's church, Washington, D. C, Rev. John C. Bowers, pastor, is steadily growing in numbers and usefulness. A recent entertainment given under it's auspices netted the League $50, $45 of this was handed over to the church treas-urer for the use of the congregation. '93. W. L. Ammon, Esq., has been elected City Solicitor of York, Pa. Ex-'94. Rev. Warren Nichol will graduate from Mt. Airy Seminary at the coming Com-mencement. He has received a call to Bed-minster, Pa. '94. F. H. Bloomhardt has been elected to 75 THE COLLEGE MERCURY. the presidency of the John Guiteras Medical Society, of the University of Penn'a. '94. At a recent annual convention of the Susquehanna Synod, held at Watstown, Pa., Matthew Kemp and R. W. Mottern were or-dained as ministers of the gospel. Ex.-'95. Newton J. Walter has completed his second year at the United Presbyterian Seminary at Allegheny and will engage hi supply work in York and Lancaster counties this summer. '95. Roscoe C. Wright will finish his theo-logical studies this year, and will be ready in June to enter upon the work of the ministry, for which he has every qualification. '95. On May 1st, Rev. Moritz G. L. Rietz entered upon his work as pastor of the Luth-eran church at Chatham, N. Y. This is Rev. Rietz's first charge and we wish him great success in his labors. '96. W. H. Menges is now the Junior mem-ber of the firm of Menges & Stauffer, dealers in grain, coal aud produce, Spring Grove. Rev. E. D. Weigle, D. D., '75, and Rev. H. H. Weber, '82, General Secretary of Church Extension, delivered addresses at the dedication of the First Lutheran church, of Altoona, on Sunday, May 23rd. Trinity Lutheran church of Taneytown, Md., of which Rev. D. Frank Garland, '88, is pastor, was dedicated on Sunday, May 9th. A sermon was preached at the re-opening serv-ices on the previous Thursday evening by Rev. G. W. McSherry, '80, the former pastor. Those participating in the services of re-open-ing and dedication were Dr. M. Valentine, '50; Rev. W. H. Dunbar, D. D., '71; Rev. O. C. Roth, '78; Rev. Luther Kuhlman, '79, and Rev. B. F. Allemau, D. D. The cost of re-modeling and re-furnishing the church is be-tween $16,000 and $17,000. grounds, the game with them on the 8th was close. The result of the game was doubtful until the last man was put out in the ninth in-ning. Burns pitched a fine game. The Indi-ans were able to get but 3 hits off of him. Dale played an excellent game at second, accepting 8 chances without an error. ATHLETICS. H. C. ROEHNER. Editor. Base-ball, of course, has been the all absorb-ing form of athletics this month; and the rec-ord of the club has been an excellent one. That we have had a team to be proud of every-one admits, aud we are glad to see the interest that the boys have taken in it. INDIANS—First game. As is always the case with the Indians on our GETTYSBURG. AB R H PO A E White. 3b 5 Dale, 2I1 5 Tate, Leisenring.il) Ilurns,(cap.)p Gladfelter, ss. 4 o Roehner. cf. 4 o Spealraan, rr. 4 o Wolf, If 2 o Herman, If. 1 o 2 1 3 1 2 9 o 1 15 INDIANS. AB R H PO A 1 Buckhart, c. 40071 Shelafo, p, ss. 4 I 1 1 i Jamison, ss. p 4 1 1 16 Miller. W , 3b 3 o 002 Miller, A., cf. 41000 Hudson, rf 40 I 11 0 16 1 000 0 ' 5 Pierce, lb 3 Archiquet'e.lf 4 Eastman, 2b. 3 Totals 3S 5 S 27 16 5 Totals 33 3 3 27 17 3 Earned runs—Gettysburg, z. Home Run—Burns 2 base hit I —Hudson. Stolen bases—Gettysburg, 2; Indians. 3. Bases on I balls-By Burns, 2; Shelafo, 3. Struck out—By Burns, 11; Shel-1 afo 3; Jamison. 4. Passed balls—Tate, 3. Time of game-no. I Umpires—McPherson, and smith-ail Indian. STATE COLLEGE—First game. The game at State was very close and excit-ing. Both pitchers were in fine form. Burns got himself out of several very tight places. Once with the bases full and only one out, lie struck out the next two batters. Three hits were bunched on Nesbit in the fifth inniner. GETTYSBURG. AB R n 0 A K White, 3b 4 0 0 10 " 0 31 1 0 2 Dale, 2b 5 Tate, c 5 Leisenring, lb 4 Burns, p 4 Gladfelter, ss. 4 1 Roehner, cf. 4 Herman, If. 3 0 Spealman, rf. 1 Brown, rf. 2 0 1 0 0 13 1 1 11 I) 1 1 1 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 STATE COLLEGE All It Albert, lb 4 0 Miller, If. 3 0 Beehtel, 2b 4 0 Hayes, rf. 4 0 Spiesman, c. 3 Curtin, 3b 4 Nesbit. p 4 0 Steward, ss 3 0 Findley. of. 3 0 H 0 A 1 8 1 1 0 0 2 :: 2 0 1 1 0 14 0 0 0 II 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 Totals 3G 3 6 27 7 4 Totals 33 0 1 2; Bases on balls—State, 1; Gettysburg, 3. Passed balls—Spie man, 2. Stolen bases—State, 2; Gettysburg. 3. Struck out " Nesbit, lfi; by Burns, 16. Time of game—1.45. Umpire—Leele. 1 2 Gettysburg 1 0 1 ■ I 4 5 0 1 7 8 9 0 II State. 00000000 0-i BUCKNELL. The game played with Bucknell, at Lewis-burg, on the 17th, would have been won easily had we had a fair show. The action of tbi management at Bucknell must be condeiimeii for allowing such an incompetent umpire fa any college game. Even the players admitted that we did not receive fair treatment. Tht game was marked by the hard hitting of tht Gettysburg boys, knocking Bucknell's crack pitcher, Shorten, all over the field : The score follows : GETTYSBURG. R White, 3b 0 Dale, 2b 0 Tate, c 1 Leisenring, lb 1 Burns, lb. p 1 Gladfelter, ss 1 Roehner, cf. 1 Herman, If. 1 Brown, rf. 0 0 I) 3 0 3 12 3 0 1 E 0 0 0 0 1 0 Totals 0 13 24 BUCKNELL. R Gearv, lb 1 Conover, ef. 1 Griffith, 2b 2 Grimm, If. 1 Mttlkie, ss 2 Catterall, c 1 Jenkinson, rf. 0 Garner, 3b 0 Shortell, p 1 Totals . 9 THE COLLEGE MERCURY. 76 SCORE BY INNINGS 1284 56789 ,.,.,". 11 2 I) 0 0 5 U 2 0 X—a ■msbirg::::'.:::::::::. 0 0 0 s 0 » o.o-p-8 two base hits—Mulkie, 2; Uladfelter. Three base hits—Tate, ■tarns Catterall Double plav—Urown to Leisenring. Stolen ■bes—Gettysburg, 2. Hit b> [litcher-Geary, Shonell. Bases on Kfs hortell, :'■: l.eiseiiviiiir. 2. Struck out—Leisenriiig, i: IBiinis I: Shonell, 6. Time of game-2.10. Um lire -Wilkinson. The boys had a fine time on their trip of 5 Bys to State and Bucknell. Arrived here on Tuesday at 2 and played State here at 3 P. M. STATE COLLEGE—Second game. Again State was compelled to bow down to Gettysburg. This game was somewhat more ■citing than the game at State College. The ipposing team were able to get but one hit off p Burns. The errors charged against Dale Ire very excusable, since he was not in a fit Ridition to go into the game because the muni) of his right hand was badly bruised Bile playing against State . at State College. laving no competent substitute for his posi-lion, he pluckily consented to go into the (ame. Tate's batting was a feature, having , hits out of 5 times to bat. The score is as [follows : GETTYSIU'RU. AB It H 0 A E Hte, 3b 5 1 1 4 -' 1 Be, 2b S 1 2 2 n (i Ete, e 5 1 4 10 3 0 Benring, lb 3 oioi o Jrns, p 3 0 0 0 s o [ladfelter, ss. a 0 0 0 1 1 Btoer, el'. 3 0 0 10 0 erninn, If. 3 10 0 0 1 Iwyer, rf 4 1110 0 Totals. . 30 5 9 27 10 S STATE. Albert, lb. Miller, If. Becntol, 2b. AB It II l> A i: 3 0 0 iS 1 0 3 O 0 4 0 0 10 0 2 2 1 Hays, rf icpt 4 2 10 0 0 Brandt, of Spiesman, c. Curtin, 3b. Nesbit, p Stuart, ss. 3 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 3 0 ii 9 2 2 1 0 1 1 1 0 12 1 •Findlcv 10 0 0 0 0 Totals 31 2 1*28 11 5 mencement week give great promise of being close and exciting. The preparation for the other athletic feat-ures of Commencement week are rather "la-tent" as yet, but no doubt will materialize. The July number (Commencement number) will contain a general summing of athletic matters and the averages of the individual players on our team. Findlev batted for Xesbit in ninth inning. Gladl'eiter out, hit by batted ball. jtrned rims— Gettysburg 1. Two base hit—Dale. Stolen ies—Tate, Hayes. Double play-Nesbit to Albert. Bases on fa-Gettysburg, 5; State, 5. Struck out—Nesbit, 8: Burns, 9. ssed balls Spiesman, I. Wild pitch-Burns, 1. Time of me—1.45. Umpire—Kuendig. SCOKE BY INNINGS. 12 34 5 0789 tysburg 1 01 000210—5 .te 0 10 0 0 10 0 0—2 verything was running smoothly until we pnt to Carlisle on Saturday, the twenty-sec-d, and played the Indians. The whole me was a big joke—on us—to the score of i, the tabulated score of which will be ven in next issue. The game between the Sophomores and the |eminarians on the same date must have been 'Ore interesting—the1 score being 25-23 in wor of '99. The matches of the tennis tournament are w being played off to the interest and usement of the on-lookers, and the "glory" ■he participants. The finals during Com- TOW|vJ y\fslD SEIVll|SlAF{Y NOTES. K. W. WOODS, Editor. TOWN. Rev. H. S. Jenanyan, principal of St. Paul's Institute of Tarsus, Asia Minor, his wife and cousin, who witnessed the Turkish massacres in Marash, spent last week in Gettysburg in the interest of the relief work foi widows and orphans in Armenia. Their plea for the op-pressed came with peculiarpower. Large col-lections were make in the various churches to relieve the sufferers. Through the efforts of Amos Eckert a sprinkler was secured for the middle of the Square. The Square will be sprinkled morn-ing and evening, which will add much to the comfort of those residing in that vicinity. Messrs. M. and T. E. Farrell received the contract for the avenue over Little Round-Top to connect Hancock avenue with the Confed-erate avenue. The work was begun several weeks ago and will be completed by the latter part of the summer. Some very necessary improvements have been made lately around the P. & R. termi-nus. Among them is the railing placed at the passenger station, back of which the cabmen will be required to stand hereafter. We are very glad to see this, and it will take away a great deal of unnecessary nuisance, both for excursionists and students. Mr. George E. Spangler has moved his stock of musical instruments into his new building on York St. Mr. Charles Deardorff moved his sewing machine business into the same room also. Prof. Klinger moved last week from the Eagle Hotel to his new home on Baltimore St. Rev. D. W. Woods, Jr., pastor of the Pres-byterian church, of this place, preached an eloquent sermon last Sunday afternoon to a •• ) Skelly Post Room, No. 9, 77 large audience in G. A. R. Hon. William N. Ashman, LL- D., will be a guest of the College during Commencement week. He will deliver an address before the Young Men's Christian Association in Christ Lutheran church, on Sunday evening, May 30th. Judge Ashman is an instructive and entertaining speaker and is often called upon to address religious organizations. The Senior class, of Wilson College, Cham-bersburg, visited the Battlefield last Monday. They were accompanied by Dr. S. A. Martin, President of the college. Miss Elizabeth Leopold, of Wilson College, will sing at the services in Christ Lutheran church, next Sunday. John B. McPherson will deliver the Memo-rial address at Fairfield on Decoration Day. About one hundred Baptists from Boston visited the battlefield last Tuesday. They were on their way to a convention to be held in Pittsburg. The Union League from Philadelphia spent Saturday and Sunday in this place. They took in the battlefield and from all accounts had a very pleasant trip. The Coal Exchange from New York visited the historic field last Tuesday. They had their headquarters at the Hotel Gettysburg. SEMINARY. Ten Seniors are now located. Rev. Matt. S. Kemp has received a call to Smicksburg and Trade City, Indiana county. Rev. W. C. Ibach attended the Washington monument dedication, in Philadelphia, May 15th. Messrs. Newcomer and Lecrone, of the mid-dle class, attended the dedication of the Luth-eran church at Spry, York Co., on the 23d. Mr. S. F. Miller preached at Round Top last Sunday evening. Mr. W. Hartman filled Rev. Leiseuring's pulpit, Chambersburg, May 23rd. Rev. J. H. Harms will be installed pastor of Trinity Lutheran church, Chambersburg, on Sunday, June 6th. Rev. Herbert Alleman, former pastor, now of Christ church, this place, will preach one of the sermons. THE COLLEGE MERCURY. Rev. A. Bredenbeck has returned from hj.| recent visit to Philadelphia. Rev. L. B. Hafer has received a call the Fort Washington charge near Philadel-I phia. M. W. M. Cross, eclectic, begins his workf at Stone church on baccalaureate Sunday. Rev. Killian preached at Smithsburg, I last Sunday. Mr. B. R. Lantz, of the Middle class, supply the Lutheran church at LawrenceJ Kan., during the summer. Mr. C. H. Brosius will take charge of Di.l Weber's church, Sunbury, Pa., during tbe| summer. A summary of the Seminary catalogue i«| the current year shows a total enrollment i sixty-two, divided as follows : Seniors, IJ, Middlers, 24; Juniors, 17; Eclectics, 2; Graduates, 6. FRATERNITY NOTES. PHI KAPPA PSI. The Chapter sympathizes with Dr, J. Cl Goettman, '59, who was recently afflicted will a stroke of paralysis. '56. H. W. Kuhns, D. D., one of the Ckl ter members of Pennsylvania Epsilou, recentil met with a painful accident sustaining a fra| ture of the ankle. '82. C. S. Duncan was visited by C. i Meloy, of Penn. Zeta, for a few days las week. '92. Clayton J. Ziegler, York, Pa., paidtlj Chapter a very welcome visit on the 15th ins| R. R. Miller, '93, and R. E. Miller, '94,3 engaged in business in Pine Grove, Pa. '95. W. B. Keefer is playing 2nd basei the Reading ex-College Men's team. '95. H. M. Witman contemplates takii another year at the Yale Divinity School. '96. Carty expects to visit the Chapter do| ing Commencement week. '97. White was called home recently, oivifl to the death of his uncle PHI GAMMA DELTA. A fine half-tone electro of Bro. H. L. Hoj man, ex-'95, Yale '97, appears in the Art THK COLLEGE MERCURY. 78 number of the Qunrterly. Bro. Hoffman has the honor of being the First Gymnast of Yale. The Chapter at Yale is building a house [which, when completed, will be one of the [finest of the kind among the colleges of our country. Bro. J. S. Albert, Gamma Philo, a member I of the State College base-ball team, was a wel-come visitor to our Chapter last week. Bros. L. E. DeYoe, '86, and E. H. Wirt, ['95, paid short visits to Gettysburg this mouth. Bro. E. E. Blint, '90, [.College base-ball game. witnessed the State The Lutheran church, Taueytown, Md., ^was dedicated last week. Bro. D. F. Garland, 18, pastor. Bro. C. W. Fairbanks, Theta Dentrou, of Indiana, made his first speech in the Senate last week. PHI DELTA THETA. Rev. Chas. Reinewald passed through Get-tysburg. May 14, on his way to New York. Rev. L. S. Black has returned to Johnstown. le will visit Gettysburg again during Com-mencement week. Harry Ehrhart spent the night of May 14 in town. Dave J. Forney has just recovered from a slight illness. Markel was very pleasantly surprised on the |5th, by a visit from his father and sister. Carver spent Sunday, the sixteenth, at his home in Hanover. ALPHA TAU OMEGA. E. L. Koller, '98, assisted the choir in the dedicatory services at Taueytown, Md., Sun-day, May 8th. L. DeWitt Gerhardt, '89, visited the Chap-er May 8th. | Ralph Cannon, ex-'g5, spent Sunday, May 16th, with the Chapter. Percy Hoover, '95, now a student at the U. Jf P., was the guest of the Chapter for a few days. P. W. Koller, of the graduating class of Seminary, preached in the First Lutheran church, Hanover, Pa., Sunday, May 16. LITEFJARY SOCIETIES. R. D. CLARIS, Editor. It is very unfortunate that, as soon as the pleasant days and evenings begin to arrive, the attendance at the meetings of our literary societies should decrease so markedly. There is no excuse for such a state of affairs; our halls are both very pleasant to be in on these spring evenings, and we are sure the members need the literary drill just as much now as at any time. There seems to be a general tend-ancy among the boys to give literary matters a second place, and especially in the latter half of the spring term. It is to be hoped that a fresh enthusiasm will take hold of us next Sep-tember and that then our presidents will not be required to hunt around over the campus and through the buildings to find a quorum. PHILO. The society has made an addition to its library in the shape of a book screen—a very necessary and handsome improvement. The new officers who have been elected to serve next year, are the following : President, C. H. Tilp ; Vice President, S. M. Herman ; Recording Secretary, I. Z. Im-ler ; Corresponding Secretary, J. H. Beerits ; Critic, Miss Myers ; Janitor, C. H. Bottiger. PHRENA. At a recent business meeting the following were installed as officers of Phreua Society : President, Meisenhelder; Vice President, Lauf-fer: Recording Secretary, Clare; Chaplain, Enders ; Monitor, McCaruey ; Librarian, Diehl ; Assistant Librarian, Musselman ; Critics, Miss Frey, Bikle, Jr., Reisch, Diehl; Janitor, Keller. Mrs. Sweet—Do you find it economical to do your own cooking ? Mrs. Burnem—Oh, yes; my husband doesn't eat half as much as he did when we had a cook.—Ex. Quoth a medical student named Proctor, As he staved off a creditor's letter, "Tho' I'm not known yet as Dr., I am known far too well as a Dr.'' —Ex. I ADVERTISEMENTS. v ha PIMSYiLVATO '' (\\ _ . \ A' I. Classical Course for the Degree of A. B. II. Scientific Course for the Degree of B. S. III. Post-Graduate Course for the Degree of Ph. D. IV. Special Course in all Departments. V. Elective Studies in Junior and Senior Years. VI. New Testament Greek and Hebrew in English Bible Department! Observatory, Laboratories and new Gymnasium. Four large buildings. All building! heated with steam from central plant. Libraries, 25,000 volumes. Fine Museum. Expense! low. Department of Hygiene and Physical Culture in charge of an experienced physician! Accessible by frequent railroad trains. Location, on BATTLEFIELD of Gettysburg; mol pleasant and healthy. . PREPARATORY DEPARTMENT, in separate buildings, for bojf and young men preparing for business or college, under special care of the principal and thre assistants, residing with students in the building. For full particulars, apply for catalogue ti HARVEY w. MCKNIGHT, D. D., LL. D., PRES'T., Pennsylvania, Cotteg-e^ G>e,ilysb.mg> p3 GENTS' FURNISHER, I H (MY(K(P^ No. 11 Baltimore St., $Pm JUIO A./1L JL JOJELOg CETTY^BimC PA B^Overcoats and Winter Suits at a Big Sacrifice. ~JOHNL. SHEtiDST N£W CIGAR STORK Next door lo W. M. Depot, Gettysburg, Pa. w, w* HBSXTXTXG, ott\\_tR \n BREAD, BOLLS, PRETZELS & CBACKEBS YORK STREET, GETTYSBURG. B®° Reasonable Rates to Clubs. ADVERTISEMENTS. No. 42 North 9th Street, PHILADELPHIA. Acknowledged Headquarters for ANYTHING I EVERYTHING in tlie way of BOOKS FOR CHURCHES, FAMILIES, i V >Z LEGES and SCHOOLS, and LIT-ER: I TURE FOR SUNDA Y SCHOOLS. PLEASE REMEMBER That by sending your orders to us you help traild up and develop one or Hie Church's Institutions, with pecuniary advantage to yourself. Address orders to HENRY S. BONER, Superintendent, No. 42 North 9th Street, Philadelphia. BARBER -^=SHOP. Proprietor, BALTIMORE STREET. f^M^WM it^h^d^^^m mSammr- Made of 5% Nickel Steel Tubing. ■ ,^$sh >■■■ Strongest Efl&SR %:--■-:-■■ ■BICYCLES* THE PLACE FOR STUDENTS TO GO. ONLY FIRST-CLASS TONSORIAL WORK. DAVID TROXEL .DEALER IN. FINE CROQERIES 4riD MOTIONS. York Street.^ ♦•HOTEL 8ETTYSBUR6* -^©AfiSBB SHOP.K-Centre Square.

The Situation In The Middle East Letter Dated 1 February 2018 From The Secretary-General Addressed To The President Of The Security Council (S/2018/84) ; United Nations S/PV.8174 Security Council Seventy-third year 8174th meeting Monday, 5 February 2018, 10 a.m. New York Provisional President: Mr. Alotaibi. . (Kuwait) Members: Bolivia (Plurinational State of). . Mr. Llorentty Solíz China. . Mr. Wu Haitao Côte d'Ivoire. . Mr. Tanoh-Boutchoue Equatorial Guinea. . Mr. Ndong Mba Ethiopia. . Mr. Alemu France. . Mr. Delattre Kazakhstan. . Mr. Umarov Netherlands. . Mr. Van Oosterom Peru. . Mr. Meza-Cuadra Poland. . Ms. Wronecka Russian Federation. . Mr. Nebenzia Sweden . Mr. Skoog United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland . Mr. Allen United States of America. . Mrs. Haley Agenda The situation in the Middle East Letter dated 1 February 2018 from the Secretary-General addressed to the President of the Security Council (S/2018/84) This record contains the text of speeches delivered in English and of the translation of speeches delivered in other languages. The final text will be printed in the Official Records of the Security Council. Corrections should be submitted to the original languages only. They should be incorporated in a copy of the record and sent under the signature of a member of the delegation concerned to the Chief of the Verbatim Reporting Service, room U-0506 (verbatimrecords@un.org). Corrected records will be reissued electronically on the Official Document System of the United Nations (http://documents.un.org). 18-03099 (E) *1803099* S/PV.8174 The situation in the Middle East 05/02/2018 2/17 18-03099 The meeting was called to order at 10.05 a.m. Expression of thanks to the outgoing President The President (spoke in Arabic): As this is the first public meeting of the Security Council for the month of February, I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute, on behalf of the Council, to His Excellency Ambassador Kairat Umarov, Permanent Representative of Kazakhstan, for his service as President of the Council for the month of January. I am sure I speak for all members of the Council in expressing deep appreciation to Ambassador Umarov and his team for the great diplomatic skill with which they conducted the Council's business last month. Adoption of the agenda The agenda was adopted. The situation in the Middle East Letter dated 1 February 2018 from the Secretary-General addressed to the President of the Security Council (S/2018/84) The President (spoke in Arabic): In accordance with rule 37 of the Council's provisional rules of procedure, I invite the representative of the Syrian Arab Republic to participate in this meeting. In accordance with rule 39 of the Council's provisional rules of procedure, I invite Ms. Izumi Nakamitsu, High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, to participate in this meeting. The Security Council will now begin its consideration of the item on its agenda. I wish to draw the attention of Council members to document S/2018/84, which contains the text of a letter dated 1 February 2018 from the Secretary-General addressed to the President of the Security Council. I now give the floor to Ms. Nakamitsu. Ms. Nakamitsu: I would like to thank you, Mr. President, for this opportunity to brief the Security Council once again on the implementation of resolution 2118 (2013), on the elimination of the Syrian Arab Republic's chemical-weapons programme. I remain in regular contact with the Director- General of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) to discuss matters related to this issue; I spoke to him last week. In addition, I met with the Chargé d'affaires of the Permanent Mission of the Syrian Arab Republic to the United Nations this past Friday. At the time of my previous briefing, planning was under way with regard to the destruction of the remaining two stationary above-ground facilities of the 27 declared by the Syrian Arab Republic. I am informed that the OPCW, working with the United Nations Office for Project Services, is currently at the stage of finalizing a contract with a private company to carry out the destruction, which I understand could be completed within two months. There have been some developments on the issues related to Syria's initial declaration and subsequent amendments. The translation and analysis of documents that were provided to the OPCW by the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic in November have been completed. The OPCW has indicated that this information provided clarifications on some issues. However, the OPCW is continuing to follow up with the Government of Syria on the remaining gaps, inconsistencies and discrepancies. The Director- General will submit a report in that regard to the next session of the OPCW Executive Council, which will take place in March. Further to its routine inspections in Syria, samples taken by the OPCW team during its second inspection at the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Centre are currently being analysed by two OPCW-designated laboratories. The Executive Council will be informed of the results of the inspection via a separate note from the Director-General to the next session of the Executive Council. The OPCW Fact-finding Mission continues to look into all allegations of the use of chemical weapons in Syria, the majority of which involve the use of toxic chemicals, such a chlorine, in areas not under the control of the Government. The Fact-finding Mission expects to submit a report on the allegations very soon. In addition, another Fact-finding Mission team has been looking into allegations of the use of chemical weapons brought to the attention of the OPCW by the Government of Syria. At the time of our previous briefing, a Fact-finding Mission team was in Damascus, at the invitation of the Government, to look into several of those allegations. I am informed that a report in that regard is also pending. 05/02/2018 The situation in the Middle East S/PV.8174 18-03099 3/17 There is still work to do before resolution 2118 (2013) can be considered to have been fully implemented, and for the international community to have shared confidence that the chemical-weapons programme of the Syrian Arab Republic has been fully eliminated. Moreover, allegations of the use of chemical weapons in Syria have continued, including just this past weekend in the town of Saraqeb. That makes abundantly clear our continuing and collective responsibility to ensure that those responsible are held to account. New reports by the Fact-finding Mission are pending. Should they conclude that there has been the use, or likely use, of chemical weapons in any of those alleged incidents, our obligation to enact a meaningful response will be further intensified. It is my hope, and the hope of the Secretary-General, that such a response will favour unity, not impunity. As always, the Office for Disarmament Affairs stands ready to provide whatever support and assistance it can. The President (spoke in Arabic): I thank Ms. Nakamitsu for her briefing. I shall now give the floor to those Council members who wish to make statements. Mrs. Haley (United States of America): The news out of Syria this morning is following a troubling pattern. There are reports of yet another chemical-weapon attack on Sunday. Victims of what appears to be chlorine gas are pouring into hospitals. Few things have horrified my country and the world as much as the Al-Assad regime's use of chemical weapons against its people. The Security Council has been outspoken on ending Syria's use of chemical weapons, and yet they continue. Under the Chemical Weapons Convention and resolution 2118 (2013), the Al-Assad regime's obligations are clear: it must immediately stop using all chemical weapons. It must address the gaps and inconsistencies in its Chemical Weapons Convention declaration. And it must destroy all of its remaining chemical weapons under the supervision of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW). These are worthy goals. These are urgent goals. Yet we spent much of last year in the Council watching one country protect the Al-Assad regime's use of chemical weapons by refusing to hold them responsible. What do the American people see? What do people of all countries see? They see a Council that cannot agree to take action, even after the OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism, created by the Council, found that the Al-Assad regime used chemical weapons. Now we have reports that the Al-Assad regime has used chlorine gas against its people multiple times in recent weeks, including just yesterday. There is obvious evidence from dozens of victims, and therefore we proposed a draft press statement by the Security Council condemning these attacks. So far, Russia has delayed the adoption of the draft statement — a simple condemnation of Syrian children being suffocated by chlorine gas. I hope Russia takes the appropriate step to adopt the draft text, thus showing that the Council is unified in condemning chemical-weapon attacks. Accountability is a fundamental principle, but it is just the first step. Our goal must be to end the use of these evil, unjustifiable weapons. When actions have consequences — when perpetrators are identified and punished — we come closer to reaching our goal. But if we cannot even take the first step of establishing accountability for the use of chemical weapons, we have to seriously ask ourselves why we are here. The requirements for establishing accountability for the use of chemical weapons have not changed since the Council voted unanimously to create the Joint Investigative Mechanism, in 2015. They have not changed since Russia acted alone to kill the Mechanism last year. Such a mechanism must be independent and impartial. It must be free of politics. It must be controlled by experts, not politicians or diplomats. And it must be definitive. The latest Russian draft resolution does not meet any of those criteria. Russia's draft resolution completely ignores the findings of the Joint Investigative Mechanism, which was an investigation that Russia supported until the investigators found the Al-Assad regime to be responsible. That should already be enough to make us sceptical. However, there are other deep problems. For their new investigation, Russia wants to be able to cherry-pick the investigators. It wants to insert unnecessary and arbitrary investigative standards. And it wants the Security Council to be able to review all the findings of this investigation and decide what makes it into the final report. That is not an impartial mechanism; it is a way to whitewash the findings of the last investigation that Russia desperately wants to bury. No one should believe that the draft resolution is a good basis for discussion, when it is designed to undermine our core principles on chemical weapons. We cannot S/PV.8174 The situation in the Middle East 05/02/2018 4/17 18-03099 hope to end the use of chemical weapons if those who use them escape the consequences of their actions. Therefore, while we regret the need for its creation, we applaud the efforts of France to launch the International Partnership against Impunity for the Use of Chemical Weapons. That is yet another way to hold accountable the Al-Assad regime and any group that uses chemical weapons. The United States has also announced that we will contribute to the International, Impartial and Independent Mechanism to Assist in the Investigation and Prosecution of Persons Responsible for the Most Serious Crimes under International Law Committed in the Syrian Arab Republic since March 2011. The United States strongly supports the Mechanism as a valuable tool to hold the Al-Assad regime accountable for its atrocities, including its repeated and ongoing use of chemical weapons. It is a true tragedy that Russia has sent us back to square one in the effort to end the use of chemical weapons in Syria. But we will not cease in our efforts to know the truth of the Al-Assad regime — and ensure that the truth is known and acted on by the international community. That is why we hosted all 15 members of the Council at the United States Holocaust Museum last week. The exhibit was called "Syria: Please Don't Forget Us". All of us saw undeniable evidence of the Al-Assad regime's atrocities and human rights violations. We cannot, and should not, forget the Syrian people. The United States will not forget them. While the Council has not yet been able to act to provide real accountability for the use of chemical weapons in Syria, the United States will not give up on the responsibility to do so. That is the sincere wish of the American people, and I know that it is shared by many on the Council. We are not motivated by score-settling, payback or power politics. We are motivated by the urgent need to end the unique and horrible suffering that chemical weapons have inflicted on innocent men, women and children in Syria. The Syrian people are counting on us. Mr. Allen (United Kingdom): I would like to thank High Representative Nakamitsu for her briefing. We are holding this meeting in the open Chamber today after reports of a series of chemical attacks in eastern Ghouta within the past month, as the Al-Assad regime continues its merciless bombing and killing of civilians. Over the weekend, there were further allegations of the use of chemical weapons in Idlib, as well as air strikes by pro-regime forces that reportedly hit three hospitals, leaving doctors scrambling to remove premature babies from their incubators in order to move them. I cannot say that they were moving them to safety, because the reality is that for the citizens of Idlib and eastern Ghouta, nowhere is safe. We are appalled by this violence and the reports of deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, and we call on all parties to the conflict to uphold international humanitarian law and protect civilians. The Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) is already investigating reports of the use of chemical weapons in recent weeks, but establishing who is responsible for that use will be much more difficult, because Russia has vetoed the continuation of the independent, expert OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism (JIM) three times, in order to protect the Al-Assad regime. We would welcome any serious attempt to re-establish a properly independent investigative and attribution mechanism for continuing the JIM's meticulous work. Sadly, we do not yet see that in the Russian proposal. Any successor investigation must be empowered to investigate all use of chemical weapons, whoever the perpetrator may be. Yet the Russian proposal focuses only on non-State actors. We have repeatedly condemned Da'esh for its use of chemical weapons, which the JIM clearly reported. But given Al-Assad's track record of chemical-weapon use and its failure to comply with the Chemical Weapons Convention, it is imperative to ensure that any new mechanism also investigates the use of chemical weapons by the Syrian regime. A second objection is the proposal that experts would merely gather evidence, leaving the Council to decide what it meant. No other United Nations expert panel that I know of is specifically prohibited from reaching conclusions and reporting to the Council on its findings on what has happened. We are not specialists on chemical weapons around this table. We rely on independent, United Nations-selected expert panels. The entire purpose of the JIM was that an independent panel would reach conclusions on the basis of the evidence, taking the issue out of the hands of us, the Member States and Council members, because we have been unable to agree. Russia's proposal looks as if it is designed to avoid the political embarrassment of having to use its veto power to defend the indefensible when independent bodies report on what has truly happened. The underlying intent seems to be to ensure that there are no clear conclusions in future reports. 05/02/2018 The situation in the Middle East S/PV.8174 18-03099 5/17 Thirdly, we object to the proposal's demands that the standard of proof should be beyond reasonable doubt. That standard has not been used in any other comparable past or current United Nations investigation. It is used in relation to criminal prosecutions in courts of law, which have significantly greater investigative powers and independence than those envisaged in Russia's text. Finally, the proposal insists on site visits, despite the explicit provision in the Chemical Weapons Convention for other ways to gather relevant evidence, recognizing the difficulty of safe and timely visits. There is no scientific basis for this proposal. It is simply an attempt to hamstring future investigations and discredit the JIM. Of course, Russia made much of the lack of a site visit to Khan Shaykhun, despite the fact that the Al-Assad regime handed over to the United Nations samples from the site that contained chemical signatures unique to regime sarin, obviating the need for such a visit. It is for those reasons that the current text is unacceptable. The JIM set a high standard of impartiality and expertise. We expect that standard from any future mechanism. The Syrian regime, of course, claims not to have used chemical weapons. Yet over the years two separate reports from the JIM, under separate leadership panels, drawing on a broad range of respected independent international experts, concluded that the regime had used chlorine at least three times — in Talmenes in April 2014 and in Sarmin and Qmenas in March 2015 — and had used sarin to attack Khan Shaykhun in April 2017. We should also remember the infamous attack in eastern Ghouta in August 2013, when a separate United Nations investigation found that sarin was used to kill hundreds and injure thousands. That attack brought near-universal international condemnation, and following our concerted international pressure, Syria joined the Chemical Weapons Convention. Syria promised, as it was legally obliged to do, to destroy and abandon its chemical-weapon programme. Yet it has been unable to satisfy inspectors that it has done so. We have to ask ourselves why that is. In 2013 Russia promised to act as a guarantor for the Al-Assad regime's compliance with the Chemical Weapons Convention. Yet month after month we all sit here and hear that Al-Assad has not done so. Why does Russia not compel the Syrian regime to comply with its obligations and make it impossible for it to use chemical weapons? Tragically, for the people of Syria, the regime continues to use chemical weapons with impunity. If it is confirmed that Al-Assad has again used chemical weapons on his own people, it would not only be another entry in the catalogue of his war crimes, it would also be another attack on us all, Members of the United Nations who have worked for decades — in the words of the Chemical Weapons Convention, for the sake of all mankind — to completely exclude the possibility of the use of chemical weapons. Throughout history, our peoples have said "never again" — among others, starting with the First World War battlefields, in Ethiopia, in Manchuria and in Saddam Hussein's attacks on Iran and on Iraqi Kurds. Let us, the members of the Council, stand up for the peoples of the United Nations, determined that such abhorrent chemical weapons should never be used. Let us stand up for the people of Syria and give them a real investigation into those responsible for the use of chemical weapons — an investigation that pursues justice for the horrific crimes committed against them. Let us signal our determination to pursue accountability by all means available, even if one member of the Security Council is currently preventing us from taking action here. Mr. Delattre (France) (spoke in French): I would first like to congratulate Kuwait through you, Mr. President, on the start of its presidency of the Security Council. You can rely on France's support in the month to come. I would also like to thank Izumi Nakamitsu for her usual very informative briefing. This is the second time we have met in less than two weeks after reports of four new cases of the use of chlorine against Syria's civilian population, some of them in Idlib province, which is a de-escalation zone. We are examining the information that is available and waiting for the conclusions of the investigative mechanism, but the reality is that resorting to toxic substances as weapons has never ended in Syria. I would like to remind the Council that the Syrian regime has already been identified as the perpetrator in four such cases, one of which involved the use of sarin, in violation of international humanitarian law and the obligations that Syria assumed when it acceded to the Chemical Weapons Convention. The challenges go beyond the Syrian issue. A century after the end of the First World War, in which mustard gas was used on a massive scale against civilians, what we are seeing is shocking. These weapons, which we had thought were a thing of the past, are once again being used methodically and systematically by the Syrian regime against its own people. Furthermore, there is a real threat of such S/PV.8174 The situation in the Middle East 05/02/2018 6/17 18-03099 weapons falling into the hands of terrorists. The threat is all the greater given the fact that the dismantling of the Syrian chemical-weapon programme remains at a deadlock. The cooperation of the Syrian regime with the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) has for months taken place in a piecemeal manner, and suspicions remain about the status of Syrian stockpiles. I would recall that OPCW expert teams have repeatedly found at Syrian sites indicators of undeclared substances, without any convincing explanation being provided by the country. Given that chemical weapons continue to be used, it seems that Syria has lied and maintained clandestine capacities. The situation is aggravating regional instability, undermining the non-proliferation regime and weakening the international security architecture, as well as jeopardizing the security of each of our States. It represents a violation of the law and flouts the most fundamental principles of humanity. The international community cannot downplay the situation and allow the perpetrators of these heinous crimes to remain unpunished. It is the responsibility of the Security Council to prevent this; it is our shared responsibility. The criminals who chose to design and use these barbaric weapons must be punished. At stake is the future of our collective security system; no one can be allowed to undermine its foundations without facing consequences. The hindrances and obstructions facing the international community's initiatives within existing bodies contribute to promoting impunity, and this we cannot accept. For that reason, France launched in Paris an open, pragmatic partnership that brings together States that reject impunity for individuals involved in chemical-weapon attacks or in the development of chemical-weapon programmes. It brings together all the States concerned about the threat of erosion of the non-proliferation regime and of strategic stability. It was designed to support all international bodies and investigative mechanisms in their efforts. This universal partnership applies to all instances of the use of such weapons throughout the world by all perpetrators, be they State or non-State actors. The partnership is open, and States that embrace these principles are invited to join. Like everyone else here, we hope that a mechanism for the identification of those responsible will be recreated as soon as possible. However, any sincere and credible effort to that end must align with the basic standards of independence, impartiality and professionalism that underpinned the Joint Investigative Mechanism, as the very reason for the establishment of such a regime is to determine the truth. Within the Council, France will be very vigilant with respect to the principles listed and will not accept a lesser mechanism. Impunity in Syria is not an option. The perpetrators of all of the crimes committed in Syria will be held accountable, sooner or later. The International, Impartial and Independent Mechanism for Syria, which we support, is a part of that process. That is the only way to ensure lasting peace in Syria, and this can come about only in the framework of an inclusive political solution in Geneva, in line with resolution 2254 (2015), which more than ever before represents our shared compass. The repeated use of chemical weapons in Syria has been proved. We cannot turn a blind eye to this, for no one can now say that they did not know. Denial or hypocrisy, or a combination of of the two, cannot be presented as a strategy. The persistent use of chemical weapons in Syria represents a violation of the universal conscience as well as the most fundamental principles of international law. It also poses a potentially lethal threat to the sustainability of the international non-proliferation regime, which is the most comprehensive and successful of all of the international non-proliferation regimes. To allow it to be undermined without any response would be to accept the erosion of the entire international regime for the non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction that we have built together, stone by stone, over the course of decades and which constitutes the very backbone of the international security architecture as well as one of the paramount gains of multilateralism. On behalf of France, I call on all members of the Security Council to shift their attitudes and adjust their focus. The heavy responsibility that we all bear requires that we join together and take action. Mr. Llorenty Solíz (Plurinational State of Bolivia) (spoke in Spanish): My delegation wishes to congratulate you once again, Sir, as well as the Permanent Mission of Kuwait, on your assumption of the presidency of the Security Council for the month of February. We are also grateful for the briefing provided by the Under-Secretary-General and High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, Ms. Izumi Nakamitsu. We also 05/02/2018 The situation in the Middle East S/PV.8174 18-03099 7/17 wish to acknowledge the letter sent by the Secretary- General (S/2018/84) concerning the periodic report of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW). Bolivia believes that there can be no justification for the use of chemical weapons, regardless of circumstances and by whomsoever committed, as such use is a serious violation of international law and poses a grave threat to international peace and security. We therefore categorically condemn the use of chemical weapons or substances as weapons, as we deem this an unjustifiable and criminal act, wherever, whenever and by whomsoever committed. In that context, we express our grave concern about the ongoing reports of the use of chemical weapons in the Syrian Arab Republic, especially in eastern Ghouta. If that is confirmed, the Council should remain united in order to ensure that the perpetrators are held accountable and brought to justice, so that there is no impunity for their actions. We commend the coordination between the OPCW and the United Nations Office for Project Services in all of the arrangements aimed at making possible the destruction of the two remaining facilities as well as the preparedness of the Syrian Government to achieve this end. We call on the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic to cooperate with the OPCW on this initiative, as well as during the second inspection of the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Centre. We encourage the Fact-finding Mission to continue its investigation so that, in accordance with its mandate, it can investigate, in the most objective, methodical and technical manner, reports of the use of chemicals weapons on Syrian territory. In that regard, we highlight the latest visit to the city of Damascus during January, and we will await the results thereof. We call on all parties involved to cooperate fully as well as to provide viable and reliable information, so that an effective investigation of all of the ongoing cases can be conducted as soon as possible. Concerned about the reports of the use of chemical weapons, we deem it essential to establish as soon as possible an independent, impartial and representative mechanism to carry out a full, reliable and conclusive investigation of the cases referred by the Fact-finding Mission that will make it possible to identify those responsible for such acts. Nevertheless, if we want to create a new, transparent accountability mechanism, we have the major challenge and the responsibility of not instrumentalizing the Security Council for political ends. In that vein, we view the Russian proposal as a new and positive opportunity to reach this goal. We therefore call on the members of the Council to commit themselves to a process of purposeful negotiation, and we echo the words of the Secretary-General in his letter transmitting the current report, calling on the Security Council to demonstrate unity on this issue, which is so vital for the international community. Finally, we reiterate that the only option for resolving the conflict in Syria and prevent more people from becoming victims is through an inclusive political transition led by and benefiting the Syrian people that respects their sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. Mr. Umarov (Kazakhstan): Since this is the first public meeting of the Security Council for the month of February, I would like to congratulate the delegation of Kuwait on the commencement of its presidency and wish it great success in implementing its ambitious programme of work. I am grateful to High Representative Nakamitsu for her informative briefing. Our position on this issue remains unchanged. We strongly condemn any use of chemical weapons and advocate that such threats must be eliminated in the future. We firmly believe that there must be accountability for perpetrators of such crimes. Today I would like to concentrate on three major points. First, we support the work of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), as reflected in its fifty-second report (S/2018/84, annex). The speedy destruction, probably in two months, of the remaining chemical-weapon production facilities and resolving all outstanding issues relating to the declaration of the Syrian Arab Republic are of the utmost importance. That would help to dispel all existing doubts on many principal issues and to comprehend the real situation in the country. It is commendable that, during the inspection of Barzah and Jamrayah, all samples were sealed, packaged and shipped to OPCW's laboratory and were received there in the presence of the representatives of the Syrian Arab Republic, observing all established rules. We look forward to the follow-up to the OPCW's work, and we will also await the results S/PV.8174 The situation in the Middle East 05/02/2018 8/17 18-03099 of a thorough analysis of the documents submitted by Syria by the Declaration Assessment Team. Secondly, the continuing reports on the alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria are extremely alarming. But the most alarming fact is that the Council has not yet restored its investigative potential to properly respond to such cases. I recall the words of the Secretary-General, who pointed to the serious gap that had arisen at the end of the OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism, which leaves one with the feeling that impunity will continue without any strict monitoring. Thirdly, and lastly, considering the current developments, it is also most critical that a new mechanism be established as soon as possible. We here in the Council are not experts on chemical weapons — neither to judge or blame anyone — but must act on the basis of credible evidence provided to us by an independent, impartial and representative investigative body we can all trust. In that regard, we support the ongoing consultations on creating a new investigative instrument, in order to prevent any further use of chemical weapons and to bring perpetrators to justice. We are ready to participate actively and contribute to the earliest revival and ultimate realization of our investigative potential. Mr. Meza-Cuadra (Peru) (spoke in Spanish): We join others in congratulating your delegation, Sir, on having assumed the presidency of the Security Council for the month of February. We support you in discharging your tasks, which we are sure you will do in full. We welcome the holding of this meeting and thank Ms. Izumi Nakamitsu for her valuable briefing on this topic. Peru condemns the use of chemical weapons by any actor, in any place and under any circumstance. Their use against the civilian population in Syria is a war crime and a flagrant violation of international law, international humanitarian law and the non-proliferation regimes. In that regard, Peru believes it is essential for the international community, and in particular the Security Council, to remain resolute and united in its support for the non-proliferation regime and in ensuring that those responsible for these atrocious crimes — which are also threats to international peace and security — be held accountable. We must continue to demand that the Syrian Government fulfil its commitment to cooperate with the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) in the elimination of all of its chemical weapons. We take note of some recent progress, such as the imminent destruction of the last two declared chemical-weapon production facilities, as verified preliminarily by the OPCW last November, and the allocation of new financial resources to that end. Nevertheless, we are concerned that key points of the Syrian Government's declaration have yet to be verified, more than four years after its accession to the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on Their Destruction. We hope that the 19 recently translated documents that were provided to the OPCW will help rectify errors and omissions and clear up discrepancies. We reaffirm our commitment and support to the OPCW, whose Executive Council Peru is honoured to be a member of. In the face of new reports of chemical-weapon attacks in eastern Ghouta and Idlib, Peru expresses its solidarity with the victims and reiterates the urgent need to identify and bring to justice the perpetrators of such atrocities. Like a majority of Council members, we believe that accountability is essential to safeguarding the international non-proliferation regimes. Preventing this threat requires a credible deterrent. With that goal in mind, we believe it is urgent to establish an attributive mechanism with the highest standards of professionalism, objectivity, transparency and, primarily, independence in order to fill the gap left by the OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism. My delegation will continue to work constructively to create a new mechanism that addresses the legitimate concerns of all Council members and of the international community. Mr. Skoog (Sweden): I also want to congratulate you, Mr. President, on assuming the presidency of the Security Council for the month of February. I also thank Ms. Izumi Nakamitsu for her briefing today. In recent weeks there have been new, alarming reports of alleged chemical-weapon attacks in Syria. The most recent allegation was this weekend in Idlib. These reported attacks must be immediately investigated by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) Fact-finding Mission, to which we offer our full and unreserved support. We reiterate our strongest condemnation of the use of chemical weapons. It is a serious violation 05/02/2018 The situation in the Middle East S/PV.8174 18-03099 9/17 of international law and it constitutes a threat to international peace and security. Their use in armed conflict amounts to a war crime. Perpetrators of such crimes must be held accountable. We cannot accept impunity. That is why Sweden joined the International Partnership against Impunity for the Use of Chemical Weapons, initiated by France. As a member of the Security Council and of the OPCW Executive Council, we support all international efforts to combat the use and proliferation of chemical weapons by State and non-State actors alike anywhere in the world. We count on this initiative to complement and support our collective work in multilateral forums, as well as the existing multilateral mechanisms to achieve unity around those important goals. That also includes the Human Rights Council's Commission of Inquiry and the International, Impartial and Independent Mechanism, both of which have important mandates in collecting information. I again thank High Representative Nakamitsu for her briefing today. She reminded us that work remains on the implementation of resolution 2118 (2013). The outstanding issues relating to Syria's initial declaration must be resolved without further delay. We again call upon the Syrian authorities to fully cooperate with the OPCW in that regard. As the Secretary-General has stated, the continuing allegations highlight yet again our shared obligation to identify and hold to account those responsible for the use chemical weapons on Syria. We need to heed his call, come together and act. That is why Sweden has engaged in the negotiations on establishing a new independent and impartial attributive mechanism. The Council has a responsibility to protect the international disarmament and non-proliferation regimes and for ensuring accountability. Negotiations need to be in good faith, but with the objective of establishing a truly independent, impartial and effective mechanism for accountability. Ms. Wronecka (Poland) (spoke in Arabic): I would like to take this opportunity to wish the delegation of Kuwait every success in implementing the programme of work for this month. (spoke in English) Let me thank High Representative Izumi Nakamitsu for her informative briefing. We appreciate the ongoing work of the Technical Secretariat of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) and the Fact-finding Mission. We welcome the cooperation between the secretariat and the United Nations Office for Project Services, which facilitated the destruction of the two remaining chemical-weapon production facilities. We look forward to the results of the analysis by the Declaration Assessment Team of a set of documents and declarations submitted by Syria. Chemical weapons continue to pose a threat to the people of Syria. Repeated allegations of the use of chemical weapons in Syria, including the recent ones, serve to underline the fact that there is still a challenge to international peace and security, as well as to the credibility of the Chemical Weapons Convention regime. In that context, there is a genuine need for a clear message that impunity for perpetrators is not an option. We have clearly stated in various forums that the use of chemical weapons by anyone — State and non-State actors alike — anywhere and under any circumstances must be rigorously condemned and those responsible for such acts must be held accountable. We agree that the Security Council needs to take steps in order to establish a credible, professional and independent investigative mechanism. We have therefore engaged in the discussions to find the best solution for the future mechanism. I would like to focus on three points. First, Poland has supported the work of the OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism (JIM) and continues to support the establishment of an independent and credible investigative mechanism aimed at holding accountable the perpetrators of the use of chemical weapons in Syria. However, a future mechanism will not operate in a void. The instrument must build on the Joint Investigative Mechanism. Not only should it build on the significant achievements of the JIM, but its mandate must not deviate from resolution 2235 (2015). Secondly, the mandate of the mechanism should be balanced. There is a need to identify not only the individuals, entities and groups but also the Governments responsible for any use of chemicals as weapons. Thirdly, one of the most important elements of the mandate must be to ensure that the mechanism is independent in its proceedings and conclusions and S/PV.8174 The situation in the Middle East 05/02/2018 10/17 18-03099 free from the pressure of political verification of its conclusions by the Council. Mr. Ndong Mba (Equatorial Guinea) (spoke in Spanish): Allow me once again to congratulate you, Mr. President, and the State of Kuwait on your assumption of the presidency of the Security Council for the month of February. I wish you every success and assure you of our full support. Allow me also to express my congratulations and appreciation to Ms. Izumi Nakamitsu, Under-Secretary-General and High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, and her team for the presentation of the comprehensive and detailed briefing on the current political and humanitarian situation with regard to chemical weapons in Syria. The political — and in particular the humanitarian — crisis in Syria is reaching alarming proportions. The Republic of Equatorial Guinea expresses its solidarity with the families of the countless victims, as well as with the thousands of displaced people trapped by the hostilities and the more than 13 million people who currently need humanitarian assistance as a result of the continuing conflict. I would like to take this opportunity to condemn the loss of numerous civilian lives in this conflict, and I call on all parties to comply with international law on the protection of civilians and to distinguish between military and civilian objectives and refrain from firing rocket launchers into populated areas, as is being reported in eastern Ghouta. Equatorial Guinea can only express its satisfaction at the destruction of almost all the chemical-weapon production facilities declared by the Syrian Arab Republic thanks to the technical assistance of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW). However, while we welcome the cooperation between the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic and the OPCW, it is necessary to be vigilant and to continue to condemn in the strongest terms any possible use, development, acquisition or manufacture of chemical weapons in the country or transfers of such weapons to other States or non-State actors. In that regard, we vigorously condemn the recent use of toxic chemical weapons by whomsoever. The perpetrators of such horrendous acts must be brought to justice and sentenced appropriately. For seven years already, Syria has been a war scenario that crystallizes internal, regional and, even, international divisions. The primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security bestowed upon the Security Council by the Charter of the United Nations should lead the 15 member countries of this principal organ of the United Nations to overcome their differences regarding the situation in Syria and to renounce their political and strategic interests in favour of the legitimate aspirations of the Syrian people to achieve well-being and prosperity. In that regard, it is appropriate that, as Russia has already proposed, another mechanism be established to replace the OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism so that it can carry out the necessary investigations on the use of chemical weapons in Syria and thereby arrive at a result that garners consensus among the members of the Council in order to again unify our criteria for an objective examination of the situation. Mr. Nebenzia (Russian Federation) (spoke in Russian): At the outset, I would like to congratulate you, Mr. President, at the beginning of your presidency of the Security Council for the month of February. I wish you every success. We also thank Ms. Nakamitsu for her briefing. We trust that, with the assistance of the United Nations Office for Project Services and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), the two remaining above-ground Syrian chemical-weapon facilities will be promptly destroyed. The Syrian side has repeatedly demonstrated its interest in that. The pending issues related to the initial declarations should be dealt with as part of the dialogue between the OPCW and the Syrian Government. We welcome such cooperation, by which Syria, as a conscientious party to the Chemical Weapons Convention, provides the necessary assistance, complies with its obligations and facilitates access to the relevant documents. Many people have raised false issues that should now be closed and put aside. Syria's chemical-weapon capacity was destroyed under the oversight of the OPCW. However, it seems that there are some who wish to contrive to fan the flames on the issue. The Syrians have provided exhaustive explanations. However, issues are being raised and questions are being asked in a endless cycle. The Syrian side consistently reports to the international community, including the Security Council, about the detection of toxic chemical substances in areas liberated from the terrorists. There 05/02/2018 The situation in the Middle East S/PV.8174 18-03099 11/17 are reports from Syria about possible provocations that may be used by representatives of foreign intelligence services. All such reports must be investigated immediately by the experts of the OPCW. However, we note that, in general, tremendous efforts are necessary for The Hague to duly respond to the important message. There are numerous pretexts being put forward not to travel there and decisions are being delayed. In the light of last year's story of Khan Shaykhun and the Shayrat air base, such conduct suggests deliberate sabotage. However, the statements today have left us with the impression that it is not Syria that some delegations are interested in. The United States and the United Kingdom have used today's meeting to slander Russia, and it is quite clear why that is happening. Someone cannot tolerate the success of the Syrian National Dialogue Congress in Sochi and the prospects it offers for injecting new momentum into the political process in Syria. That requires launching a major campaign of slander against Russia in order to try, not for the first time, to cast doubt on Russia's role in the Syrian political settlement. As always, the statements of these representatives contain a grain of truth mixed with mountains of lies. Russia has never contested the use of sarin in Khan Shaykhun. But who it was used by is still a mystery, because the absurd conclusions of the OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism (JIM) have not convinced us. In the past few days there has been general uproar about alleged incidents involving the use of chlorine in some Damascus suburbs. There has already been talk of the use of sarin. Where? When? By whom? The outlines of this propaganda campaign are not new. The terrorists, through the social associations that are closely linked to them, foremost among them the notorious White Helmets, spread rumours via social networks. These are instantly picked up by the Western press, and then we get representatives speechifying in the Security Council, making unproved accusations about the so-called Syrian regime and spreading slander about Russia. I have said it before and I will say it again: has anyone thought to ask the basic question as to why the Syrian Government needs to use chemical weapons? What do we suppose that could do for it? The first thing we should do, and various speakers today, particularly the representative of Sweden, have discussed this, is to send an OPCW fact-finding mission to those areas to investigate. Where is the presumption of innocence? The speakers are blaming the so-called regime for everything in advance, before any investigation. What do they want an independent investigative mechanism for? Surely at least they know that an investigation has to precede any conclusions. But apparently they do not need one. In my opinion, it should be completely clear to everyone that that the capitals that these representatives represent in the Council have absolutely no interest in any investigation. They do not need facts or precise evidence. They need to see a political order carried out. On 23 January, Russia announced the launch in the Security Council of expert efforts to draft a resolution establishing a new investigative entity for incidents involving the use of chemical weapons to replace the defunct OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism, which was killed by the United States and its allies when they blocked the draft resolution (S/2017/968) that we proposed, together with China and Bolivia, designed to ensure that the Mechanism could be genuinely independent and professional. Not only do they not recall that episode, they have made strenuous attempts to convince the Security Council and the world community of the opposite. It has become clear that some of our partners are not prepared to consider this possibility. They want a second JIM that would continue to rubber-stamp the scientifically and technically ridiculous anti-Damascus conclusions on the basis of disinformation generously supplied by militant groups. They have long had a persistent allergy to the pressing need to pay close attention to the activities of terrorist groups, both in Syria and beyond its borders, in the context of manipulating toxic substances. In the realization that we will not allow the now entirely discredited JIM to be revived, Syria's opponents are now attempting to take alternative routes, cobbling together narrow groups of like-minded people. However, they are forgetting that in doing that they are undermining the authority of international bodies, particularly the United Nations and the OPCW, and destroying the international architecture on the non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Any initiatives in the context of the use of chemical weapons that circumvent the OPCW would be illegitimate. We certainly hope that the leadership of the United Nations Secretariat and the OPCW Technical Secretariat will make a firm show of will and distance themselves from such dubious projects. S/PV.8174 The situation in the Middle East 05/02/2018 12/17 18-03099 We are ready to accept a press statement on the Syrian chemical issue, but not the one proposed by its sponsors, because in its current form its purpose is quite clearly to blame the Government of Syria for what is so far the unproved use of chemical weapons. Somehow the draft statement does not say anything about the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic, but the reference to Article 7 of the Charter of the United Nations leaves no doubt as to its essence. We cannot accept any still unconfirmed references to the use of chemical weapons without a credible investigation, nor can we accept any threats to a sovereign State for unproved actions. For some reason, eastern Ghouta has been dragged into the statement. I would like to remind the Council that last week we were prepared to accept an agreed-on draft presidential statement on the humanitarian situation in Syria. But our partners preferred to reject it. We are ready to accept a press statement, but not as it is proposed by our colleagues. We have proposed amendments to it that we are ready to circulate and agree on in that form. Mr. Tanoh-Boutchoue (Côte d'Ivoire) (spoke in French): I would like to congratulate Kuwait through you, Mr. President, on its accession to the presidency of the Security Council for the month of February, to wish it every success and assure it of Côte d'Ivoire's cooperation. I would also like to thank Ms. Izumi Nakamitsu, High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, for her excellent briefing. My delegation commends the work of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons through its Fact-finding Mission with regard to the dismantling of Syria's chemical-weapon stocks. We encourage the Syrian Government to comply with decisions regarding the destruction of its chemical arsenal. My delegation is seriously concerned about the reports in the past week once again alleging the possible use of chemical weapons in the conflict in Syria, particularly in eastern Ghouta, where 21 cases of suffocation have been reported. They represent a significant reversal in our efforts to combat impunity with regard to the use of chemical weapons in Syria. The suffering inflicted on the Syrian people is intolerable and must be ended. In that regard, my country calls for continued efforts to implement resolution 2118 (2013), which provides for the complete dismantling of the Syrian chemical-weapons arsenal. These new allegations of the use of chemical weapons once again call into question the Council's responsibility, particularly in terms of putting an end to these acts as soon as possible and of clearly identifying the perpetrators of such criminal acts. In its latest statement on the issue of chemical weapons in Syria (see S/PV.8164), my delegation warned against the Council's failure to act, which could be interpreted by those involved in the use of such weapons in Syria as a weakness of this organ and licence to act with impunity. Clearly, those who commit these despicable acts will continue to do so as long as the Council remains divided about the need to set up a consensus-based framework capable of identifying perpetrators and bringing them to justice. My delegation therefore encourages all ongoing initiatives that support the establishment of an accountability mechanism acceptable to all. In conclusion, Côte d'Ivoire reiterates its strong condemnation of the use of chemical weapons in Syria and calls upon the relevant United Nations mechanisms to shed light on the new allegations of the use of such weapons. My delegation eagerly awaits the conclusions of the report that will be submitted after the second round of inspections conducted at the Scientific Studies and Research Centre in Syria. Mr. Wu Haitao (China) (spoke in Chinese): China congratulates Kuwait on assuming the presidency of the Security Council for the current month. We also commend Kazakhstan for its accomplishments during its presidency last month. I wish to thank the High Representative Nakamitsu for her briefing. China welcomes the progress achieved in the verification and destruction of the two remaining chemical-weapon facilities within Syria's borders. We support the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) in continuing its coordination and cooperation with the Syrian Government so as to properly settle all the questions revolving around the initial declarations of chemical weapons by Syria through the OPCW platform. China expresses its deepest sympathy to the Syrian people for their suffering as the result of chemical weapons. No use of chemical weapons will be tolerated. Lately, there have been some media reports of suspected use of chlorine and other poisonous chemicals as weapons within Syria's borders, over which China wishes to register its deepest concern. It is hoped that 05/02/2018 The situation in the Middle East S/PV.8174 18-03099 13/17 the parties will carry out verification of the related incidents as soon as possible. When it comes to the question of chemical weapons, China's position is as clear cut as it is consistent. We stand firmly against the use of chemical weapons by any country, organization or individual for whatever purpose and under any circumstances. China supports conducting comprehensive, objective and impartial investigations into any alleged use of chemical weapons within Syrian borders so as to come up with results that withstand the test of time, square with the facts and help bring the perpetrators to justice. Establishing a new chemical-weapon investigative mechanism is critical to getting to the bottom of the chemical-weapon incidents as well as warding off any future recurrences in Syria. All Council parties should work together to that end. China supports the efforts on the part of Russia to promote the establishment of a new investigative mechanism into the use of chemical weapons in Syria. We hope that the members of the Council will continue to engage in constructive consultations so as to achieve consensus at an early date. The chemical-weapon issue in Syria is closely related to a political settlement to the Syrian situation. Major achievements have been made at the Syrian National Dialogue Congress, held recently in Sochi, which played a positive role in advancing the Syrian political process, while lending impetus to relaunching the Geneva talks. It is China's hope that relevant parties will support the Security Council and the OPCW in continuing to act as the main channel for tackling the Syrian chemical-weapon issue, adopt a constructive attitude, seek proper solutions through consultation, maintain the unity of the Council and work with the United Nations and with the relevant parties in advancing the political process in Syria. Mr. Van Oosterom (Netherlands): As this is the first time that I take the floor under the Kuwaiti presidency of the Security Council, I would like to congratulate and honour Kuwait's assumption of the presidency by trying to offer my thanks in Arabic: (spoke in Arabic) Thank you, Mr. President. (spoke in English) I would also like to thank Ms. Nakamitsu for her comprehensive and clear briefing. I will address three issues today: first, reports of the renewed use of chemical weapons in Syria; secondly, the need for accountability; and, thirdly, the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) report at hand (S/2018/84, annex). With respect to the renewed use of chemical weapons in the past weeks, the Kingdom of the Netherlands is shocked at the recent reports of chemical attacks in Syria, including this weekend and last night. We are outraged. In Douma, in eastern Ghouta, and last night in Saraqeb, in Idlib, innocent civilians, including children, have become victims once again of horrible chemical-weapon attacks. Such attacks deserve the strongest condemnation of the Security Council as violations of international law. Furthermore, recent OPCW laboratory tests show that samples of the chemical attack on Ghouta in August 2013 correspond to the chemical-weapons arsenal declared by the Syrian regime in 2014 and the Khan Shaykun attack in 2017. This confirms once again that the Al-Assad regime uses chemical weapons against its own population. We pay tribute to the work of the White Helmets, who have saved more a 100,000 civilians from the rubble of the Syrian war. The use of chemical weapons should never go unpunished. Impunity erodes the important prohibition against the use of chemical weapons. It is inconceivable that impunity now reigns, which brings me to my second point, namely, the need for accountability. As others have said, we had a well-functioning and professional mechanism to ensure accountability for the use of chemical weapons in Syria, the Joint Investigative Mechanism (JIM). The JIM repeatedly determined the use of chemical weapons by the Syrian regime and by Da'esh. It had a strong mandate to investigate and identify perpetrators independently from the politics of the Security Council. And it did so accordingly, but the renewal of its mandate fell victim to the repeated use of the veto. However, that does not mean that we now need to settle for less. The Kingdom of the Netherlands is prepared to work together on any proposal that strengthens accountability and the international rule of law. But let me emphasize that a weak accountability mechanism is not an option. For us, the fundamental characteristics of any accountability mechanism are the principles of impartiality, independence, comprehensiveness and effectiveness. S/PV.8174 The situation in the Middle East 05/02/2018 14/17 18-03099 In order to uphold those principles, a mechanism should at least meet the following requirements. First, it should operate independently from the Security Council, including when it comes to the attribution of guilt. It should be impartial. The separation of powers is necessary to prevent undue politicization. Secondly, the mechanism should be effective; it should independently decide how it will conduct its investigations, including when it comes to analysing facts and assessing the quality of evidence. Lastly, it should be comprehensive and investigate and identify perpetrators among all parties to the armed conflict — both State and non-State actors. The draft resolution that is currently being discussed has not yet met those important principles. That brings me to my third point, namely, the fifty-second OPCW report (S/2018/84, annex), which the High Representative presented very clearly in her briefing. The report points out that, unfortunately, too little progress has been made by the Syrian authorities in addressing the outstanding questions that the OPCW posed about the declaration of the Syrian authorities. It is essential that the Syrian authorities cooperate seriously with the OPCW. The Kingdom of the Netherlands supports the continuation of the work of OPCW Fact-finding Mission. We call on all States to ensure that the Fact-finding Mission can continue its work independently. In conclusion, we stand ready to adopt the draft press statement, as circulated before. We are convinced that the Security Council cannot allow the continued use of chemical weapons to go unpunished. Impunity is a curse; accountability is a must. The Council has to act. As long as the Council is blocked from achieving accountability by the use of the veto, we will also continue our efforts outside the Council. We therefore strongly support other accountability initiatives for Syria, such as the International, Impartial and Independent Mechanism for the Syrian Arab Republic and the Human Rights Council's Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic. We also support the International Partnership against Impunity for the Use of Chemical Weapons, which was just highlighted by our French colleague. However, let me repeat what I have said in the Chamber before, the Council should refer the situation in Syria, especially the mass atrocities committed in the conflict, to the International Criminal Court in The Hague. Mr. Alemu (Ethiopia): We are very pleased to see you, Mr. President, assuming responsibility for the presidency. I wish to thank High Representative Izumi Nakamitsu for her briefing, which, as always, we found to be balanced, and therefore useful. We are in need of that kind of approach. Frankly speaking, we need that very desperately. During times such as this, when we seem to be so deeply divided, the role of United Nations officials like her becomes all the more critical. We thank her. We remain deeply concerned by the continued reports on the use of chemical weapons in Syria. We strongly condemn the use of chemical weapons by any actor, State and non-State alike, in Syria or anywhere else. As we have stated repeatedly, the use of chemical weapons is totally unjustifiable under any circumstances. It constitutes a threat to international peace and security and undermines the international non-proliferation architecture. We cannot agree more with what the Secretary-General stated in the concluding paragraph of his letter of 1 February: "The fact of these continuing allegations again highlights the shared obligation to identify and hold to account those responsible for the use of chemical weapons." That is why the unity of the Council is absolutely important. Without it, the Council's ability to respond to grave threats to international peace and security, such as the use of chemicals as weapons, will be seriously hampered. In that regard, what High Representative Nakamitsu said a while ago is most relevant: "unity, not impunity". Let me say that we regret that the Council was not able to renew the mandate of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism. If we are not able to address this institutional gap by drawing lessons from last year and forge the necessary unity and compromise, we will be sending the wrong message and encouraging impunity. The fact that chemical-weapon attacks have continued as recently as yesterday worries us very much. That is why it is so critical that we seek an independent way of establishing accountability. We appreciate the initiative taken by the Russian Federation to propose a draft resolution on the establishment of a new mechanism, which has been the basis for discussion in recent days. This is a conversation that we welcome. As we continue to discuss this very important matter, our consultations should be constructive and forward-looking. Of course, 05/02/2018 The situation in the Middle East S/PV.8174 18-03099 15/17 we are not naive; we have no illusions about how matters are becoming more and more complicated by the day. However, we still hope that the Council will restore its unity to reach common ground and create an independent, impartial and professional mechanism that will be able to identify those responsible for the use of chemical weapons in Syria, based on robust evidence. We welcome that the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) has continued to assist the Syrian Government in destroying the remaining stationary above-ground facilities. As the High Representative stated, we hope the facilities will be totally eliminated in the coming month. We have just heard a very encouraging statement from the High Representative. We note that the OPCW has translated and finalized its analysis of the 19 documents submitted by the Syrian Government. While we look forward to the final report, we encourage continued cooperation and meaningful communication between the Syrian Government and the OPCW that leads to tangible results to address the outstanding issues. We also note that its Fact-finding Mission has continued its investigation related to allegations of the use of chemical weapons in Syria. We look forward to its reports. Let me conclude by again reiterating, at the risk of sounding naive, how the unity of the Council is vital to ensuring accountability and deterring and stopping the use of chemical weapons in Syria and elsewhere. We only hope that the challenge we face in this area is not a reflection of the growing lack of trust that characterizes international relations today, making joint action in most critical areas more complicated than it should be. The President (spoke in Arabic): I shall now make a statement in my capacity as the representative of Kuwait. At the outset, I would like to thank the High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, Ms. Izumi Nakamitsu, for the briefing she gave at the beginning of this meeting. We had hoped that the Security Council's unanimous adoption of resolution 2118 (2013), in September 2013 following the first incident involving the use of chemical weapons in Syria, would have resolved this matter, since the Council had demonstrated unity and determination in confronting that crime with a view to ensuring that it not be repeated and that its perpetrators be held accountable. Consequently, we regret the substantial regression in addressing the chemical-weapon issue in Syria, which is a result of the divisions among Council members after the Council was unable to extend the mandate of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism in Syria, which we feel carried out its tasks in a very professional, impartial and independent manner. We express our deep concern about the allegations of the continued use of chemical weapons in Syria, most recently during the attack in Douma, in eastern Ghouta, last week and during the attack that took place in Saraqeb, in Idlib, yesterday. This is the third such attack during the past few weeks, which means that the perpetrators of those crimes will go unpunished and that there is no guarantee that they, or anyone else, who commits such crimes in the future will be held accountable, after we lost the Joint Investigative Mechanism. The position of the State of Kuwait is a principled and steadfast one that strongly condemns any use of chemical weapons, wherever, whenever and by whomsoever, as this is considered a grave violation of international law. We reiterate the need to hold accountable those responsible for such use, be they individuals, entities, non-State groups or Governments. In that context, we condemn the use of heavy and destructive weapons as well as the targeting civilians and residential areas killing dozens of innocent victims. These weapons target health facilities and civilian locations in eastern Ghouta, Idlib and other areas. We therefore support the International, Impartial and Independent Mechanism for Syria in its quest to gather evidence and investigate the crimes committed against civilians in order to hold the perpetrators accountable. The State of Kuwait will support any alternative or mechanism that enjoys the consensus of all members of the Security Council and ensures the independence, neutrality and professionalism of any new future mechanism. In that regard, we reaffirm that the primary responsibility of any mechanism must be to determine the identity of those using chemical weapons in Syria, provided that the Security Council would then play its role and hold the perpetrators accountable, in implementation of the principle of ending impunity and of resolution 2118 (2013), which undoubtedly stipulates the imperative need for, and importance of, holding accountable those responsible for the use of chemical S/PV.8174 The situation in the Middle East 05/02/2018 16/17 18-03099 weapons in Syria. We also look forward to receiving the report that will soon be submitted by the Fact-finding Mission, as mentioned by Ms. Nakamitsu in her earlier briefing on the most recent incidents, as well as her reports on the use of chlorine gas in Saraqib. In conclusion, we reiterate our full readiness to take part in any efforts that are aimed at reaching consensus among Security Council members and at holding accountable the perpetrators of such internationally prohibited crimes. We assert that a political solution in Syria is the only way to arrive at a comprehensive settlement of the crisis, in accordance with the relevant Security Council resolutions, especially resolution 2254 (2015) and the 2012 Geneva communiqué (S/2012/522, annex). I now resume my functions as President of the Council. The representative of the United Kingdom has asked for the floor to make a further statement. Mr. Allen (United Kingdom): I disagree with a lot of what my Russian colleague said, but I will not stretch my colleagues' patience. But I do feel compelled briefly to respond to several of the points that he made. The first point is to say that this is not political for us. Preventing the use of these abhorrent weapons should transcend political disagreements. We do not oppose Russia's important role in Syria at all. We noted the outcomes of Sochi, and we look forward to the proposal for a constitutional committee returning to the next round of Geneva talks, with the full participation of Russia and the Syrian authorities, as was laid out in resolution 2254 (2015). The second point I would simply make is that the notion that it was anyone other than Russia that ended the Joint Investigative Mechanism is absurd. The voting records of the Council are clear and are available to all. Russia vetoed three different proposals for the extension of the Mechanism, the last of which simply extended it for a short period and requested the Secretary-General to make recommendations, but even that was unacceptable. Finally, on a note of agreement, I just want, like my Dutch colleague, to praise the incredible work of the White Helmets, who risk their own lives on a daily basis to save thousands of Syrians civilians. The President (spoke in Arabic): I now give the floor to the representative of the Syrian Arab Republic. Mr. Mounzer (Syrian Arab Republic) (spoke in Arabic): My country condemns and rejects in the strongest possible terms any use of chemical weapons or of any other weapon of mass destruction, as this constitutes a crime against humanity and an unethical and unjustifiable act, under any circumstances. The real target of such weapons is the Syrian people, who remain the primary victims of the crimes committed by armed terrorist groups, which have not hesitated to use chemical weapons against them. I reaffirm before the Security Council that my country has sought, and continues to seek, to identify the real perpetrators responsible for the use of chemical weapons in my country, Syria. Based on those steadfast principles, my Government joined the Chemical Weapons Convention and has honoured all of its commitments thereunder. My country achieved an unprecedented and definitive feat in the history of the Organization by ending the Syrian chemical-weapons programme in record time. That was corroborated in the report of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism to the Council in June 2014. My country is the party most desirous of uncovering the truth. We have always supported, and will continue to support, in principle any initiative by the Council whose aim is to establish the truth, identify those who are really trading in the blood of the Syrian people and using toxic chemical substances against Syrian civilians, including armed terrorist groups, as well as levelling false accusations against the Syrian Government. In that regard, on behalf of the Government of my country, I once again reiterate our condemnation of all American and Western allegations accusing us of committing chemical-weapon attacks in our country. I reaffirm that those accusations are groundless and cheap lies. International public opinion and the majority of United Nations Members now know that this is but standard procedure for the United States and its allies in the Council each and every time they learn that the armed terrorist groups that they finance, arm and support on the ground in Syria are at an impasse and losing ground to the advancing Syrian army and its allies. The latter are today waging a war, on behalf of the entire world, against terrorism, which, unfortunately, is being supported by certain Governments that have no interest 05/02/2018 The situation in the Middle East S/PV.8174 18-03099 17/17 in ensuring international peace and security and are solely seeking to advance their own political agendas. My Government reaffirms once again that the United States, the United Kingdom and France are fully responsible for the paralysis of international investigative mechanisms concerning the use of toxic chemical substances, as the Governments of those States are seeking to shield the armed terrorist groups that they support. We recall before all present here that it is Syria that originally called for an investigation into instances of the use of toxic gas by armed terrorist groups. False accusations against my Government of using toxic chemical substances are attempts to cover up its efforts to reveal to the world that certain armed terrorist groups and their sponsors have continued to perpetrate crimes against innocent civilians through the use, more than once, of toxic substances. The Syrian Government has provided the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) and the OPCW-United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism (JIM) with evidence that proves that such groups possess banned toxic substances. We have repeatedly called for the carrying out of investigations to corroborate such evidence. However, our calls have been ignored. All of my colleagues here recall that the United States and its allies destroyed the JIM. Through their practices here in the Council, they put an end to the Mechanism. They brought pressure to bear on its Chair and its members by pressuring them to refuse to visit Khan Shaykhun. Rather than conduct a field visit to collect real evidence, they merely sought to level accusations and offered up evidence trumped up by Western countries to undermine Syria, to support terrorist groups and to cover up their responsibility for this incident. That occurred after the United States and its partners rejected the call by the Russian Federation to stop the politicization of the work of the JIM and to rectify its methodology by refraining from using false evidence and, instead, limiting itself to scientific and legally sound and reasonable proof. My country continues to honour all of its commitments — the ones we assumed when we joined the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on Their Destruction. We shall persevere in our fight against terrorism — a war that we will wage despite any political or media blackmail or any exploitation of the blood of innocent civilians in Syria. The Permanent Mission of the Syrian Arab Republic will today circulate a letter of the National Committee for the Implementation of the Chemical Weapons Convention, in response to the United States allegations vis-à-vis the work of the JIM and the Fact-finding Mission of the OPCW. The letter proves with scientific and legal evidence that the accusations against my country are false and that Syria has never used such chemicals, and will we ever use them, because we do not possess them. Let us recall that those who level such false accusations against Syria are the Governments of the same States with a dark history of using such internationally prohibited weapons against millions of innocent people — in Viet Nam, Cambodia, Algeria and the list goes on. Finally, on behalf of my Government, I would like to extend our gratitude to the Russian Federation and to friendly countries in the Council, countries that seek to establish truth based on their awareness about the pernicious aims behind the false accusations. They have demonstrated their commitment to the supremacy of the principles of international law and the Charter of the United Nations, as well as their conviction that such abnormal practices undermine the credibility of international actions and institutions and jeopardize international peace and security. The meeting rose at 11.45 a.m.

Transcript of an oral history interview with William F. "Bill" Lyons, conducted by Sarah Yahm at his office in Boston, Massachusetts, on 10 March 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Bill Lyons is a member of the Norwich University Class of 1990; his interview includes a discussion of his experiences as an electrical engineering student at Norwich as well as his later educational endeavors and his career as a planner, engineer, and attorney. His military service in Bosnia and Iraq is also a focus of the interview. ; 1 COL William "Bill" Lyons, NU 1990, Oral History Interview March 10, 2015 At his Boston, MA office Interviewed by Sarah Yahm Transcribed by C.T. Haywood, NU '12 March 19, 2015 SY: I am at Bill Lyons' office in Boston. It is March 10? Is that correct? WL: I think so. It's in that range. SY: It's in that range. It's March 10, 2015 and we're going to be doing an oral history interview. So, yeah you were just, you just started telling me before I turned the tape on about how you ended up at Norwich. So how did you end up at Norwich? WL: So when I was about thirteen I decided that I wanted to be in the military, and I wrote a letter to the Marine Corps asking them when I could enlist. And they informed me that I'd have to wait until I was eighteen but they encouraged me to apply for service academies and for scholarships. So I did. I actually started the process to attend the Naval Academy. I was Barney Frank's nominee in 1986 to attend the Naval Academy. But I did not pass the physical, because I have a lazy left eye and color blindness. So that was traumatic in that that particular dream was not gonna come to fruition. And so it just so happened that two doors down from us on my home street was guy named Wally Burke, who's Class of '86 [siren in background] and Skull and Swords and Honor Committee and all that stuff. And Wally's dad and my dad were friends. Wally's dad was a cop and my father was a firefighter and so my father told me about Norwich, but he simultaneously discouraged me because he really didn't want me to be in the military. SY: Hold on one sec— WL: Sure thing. SY: Because I just realized, oops, that I have my questions right over here. WL: Okay. SY: Um so why didn't you dad want you to be in the military? WL: My father was in the Army from 1958 to 1960. He left the Army early. He got a compassionate discharge because his father was in a TB hospital here in Boston. And my father was in Germany at the time and his older brother was in the Army in Germany, and so one of the boys needed to come home to look after the family. And my father quickly responded to that call. Being a city boy he thought all the outdoorsmanship was really not up his alley. And he was a very disciplined, disciplined man but didn't like the constriction of military life so he took the opportunity to come home early so he only served about eighteen months. And it's not so much that he didn't want me to be in the military, he just thought that he didn't like it so I wouldn't like it and um— SY: Did he just like not being told what to do? 2 WL: Yeah I think that's part of it. He ended up raising his most of his siblings, he was a very independent minded person. So he, he was not accustomed to being directed. He was the director. So he was a private and I think he got busted twice in rank from PFC down to private, PFC to private so that should be some indicator of the fact the life wasn't for him. So, ah in the summer of, between my junior and senior year I only applied to one school. I applied to Norwich because having not having the opportunity to go to the Naval Academy I thought Norwich was a great, um, a great opportunity for me to do what I needed to do. And as I was mentioning I was a, awful awful teenager. SY: Oh come on give me some details. How were you awful? WL: I got into a lot of trouble. I was actually, I was a decent student, studying came too easy for me so I never really learned how to study and I got great grades without doing any work. I worked full time after school and on weekends I was the director of custodial services for a florist bran--chain here in Massachusetts. And because I was working full time I had a lot of money and I was actually making more money than my mother who was working full time at the phone company at the time [car beeps]. And that lead to trouble. I was drinking too much, spending too much time not focused on my studies. I totaled three cars my senior year, one of them was an outright explosion, blew my father's brand new station wagon up. So at the end of my senior year my dad had pretty much had it. But the good news is early, I had applied early admission to Norwich and I got in early. So in November of my senior year I already knew I was all set. And had a good side - I knew I was in. And had a bad side because I knew I didn't have to try anymore so it cut both ways. But I knew that Norwich was the right place for me and um… SY: Had you gone up and visited? WL: I had, I went up with my dad for a brief visit. SY: And what was your impression? WL: You know it's kind of hard to remember, but I remember saying to myself, "This is what I'm meant to do." My father on the other hand was like, "Oooh I don't know" [laughs]. SY: So I wonder about that. So what was your dream, your vision of what being in the military was gonna be like? WL: So another little nitnoid fact- I had applied for a Marine Corps NROTC scholarship and I was notified that I was a recipient, and then about two weeks before school started in August of '85, no I'm sorry August of '86, I was notified that I, they had made a mistake and that the scholarship was no longer available because of my eyesight. So I was like, "You already knew that because you screened me out of the Naval Academy." But nevertheless my father, God bless him, he came up with the cash to pay for tuition. And so it, it just all came together. It really came together quickly and the rest is kinda history. I mean I settled in, I wanted at the time to be a Navy officer and after I took two years of Navy ROTC, and then after realizing there was no way in heck I was ever gonna get a Navy commission I switched to Army ROTC. And they said, "You want to commission? Sure you can have a commission." 3 SY: They were like, "We don't care about that lazy eye." WL: Yeah, so they gave me a contract in February of my junior year and gave me credit for my Navy ROTC. And at that time I was turned off the active duty thing. I had kind of seen it and done it at Norwich and didn't feel the need to do more. So I signed a Guaranteed Reserve Forces Duty commission, and took a commission in the Army Reserve. There was also a way for me to guarantee myself military intelligence as a branch because if you're in a military intelligence reserve unit you automatically get a military intelligence commission which is what I wanted. So that part came together quite nicely. The summer between junior and senior year I actually got, of course I went to the Advanced Camp for ROTC, but actually get to go Airborne School for three weeks and that was a, it was a life altering time just learning, learning to redefine what I thought my limits were. Obviously I learned a lot more about what I was capable of doing and that was a, that was a really good experience for me. And I came back to school ready, you know, I was like, "You know what, I gotta finish this school thing up and get my commission and drive on with life," so. [sound of something falling] [laughs]. SY: Sorry. Dropping things. Yeah. So let's rewind a little bit and ask you about being a Rook. Do you remember your first, do you remember your first day? Do you remember the first? WL: I do, yeah, it's funny I showed up for my first day, I had long, blonde hair because I worked in the outdoors all summer and my hair gets kinda blondish in the summer. And I hadn't had my haircut since the beginning of my senior year in high school so it was just about a year since my hair had been cut. Intentionally, you know, I was like rebelling. And my arm was in a sling. I had actually just had been in an accident. I was body surfing off of Singing Beach in the North Shore of Massachusetts, and there was a hurricane at sea. It was beautiful on the beach but there was a hurricane at sea, the waves were just huge. So I was body surfing and a wave picked me up and threw me on the beach and dislocated my shoulder. So that was maybe two weeks before school started. So I showed up with my arm in a sling and my bleach blonde hair and long hair, so I was instantly labeled "surfer boy," which really wasn't apt for me but that's all they knew was a snap shot in time. And I remember the, they challenged me to do pushups with my arm in the sling. And I was in much, much better shape than I am today and I actually did one-armed pushups and that was like the instant challenge I needed to be able to push back. And so I kinda got their instant respect because I dropped and started doing one-armed pushups. And so that was an interesting time, you know, I did everything I could to fit in but you know running was a real challenge with a arm in a sling, so. But I adapted and it was fun. SY: Did they make any exceptions for you because your arm was in a sling? WL: Yeah, you know they were all like, "Oh you don't have to do this now," and I was like, "I just want to fit in. I want to, I don't want to be the kid that's off to the side, you know, getting special treatment." So I worked really hard to fit in. There were obvious, I couldn't do sit ups so that was kind of out of the question. So, but did everything I could to fit in. SY: Do you remember being scared? 4 WL: You know I--scared is kind of the wrong word in the sense that it was more bewildering like trying to take it all in and understand because people are barking at me from every direction and I'm sure they do that now. All the barking is intended to have that bewildering effect, and it was very effective on me and I was struggling just to focus on what was important and who seemed to be the person that was in charge so I could follow their instructions. And I don't ever remember being fearful in the sense of, you know for life and limb, more just alarmed that I had to keep up with this dizzying pace of things so that I didn't fall behind. Because I had seen kids fall behind and then they get targeted, and then when they get targeted they kind of get drummed out and I didn't want to be that person, so. It was all I could do to just make sure that I wasn't the person getting picked on. SY: So something I've been thinking about, you know not somebody who has a military background, I've been reading a little bit about comparative military training like in, you know in Scandinavia and various different places. So to what degree do you think the Rook training and that sort of boot camp model really does help you when you are in the field later? How much is a residue from sort of previous understandings and how much is it really what's needed? WL: Yeah, I'm a very strong believer in a rigorous Rookdom, and as near as I can tell it's gotten more rigorous. I know they have much more stringent physical fitness standards than we had, and its substantially longer - Rookdom is substantially longer, or at least unrecognized Rookdom is substantially longer. For me I thought it was critical because it really--the basic training model is really about tearing you down so that everybody is more or less equal in terms of their ego and their psyche and and all of the individuality, you know it's all designed to strip all that off and then build you back up in the model that they want you to be in. I thought Norwich was incredibly effective at that, very, very effective. And I think reflecting on that it was really important to me, like I had some really good core values that my father and mother inculcated into me - honesty, integrity, and all those. Hard work, I had a very hard work ethic. And that was all there but it wasn't completely formed. And so my, my ex—my Rook year experience at Norwich was they tore me down to that base level and figured out how to build on it and make it all fit together with my individual personality, but in a fairly structured way. And I think that that, personally I think that made all the difference in my success in life because it preserved my work ethic, it preserved my core values, and then showed me how to take those characteristics and use those to my advantage in business and in the military and in all facets of life, really. So I give Norwich a lot of credit for making me the man that I am. SY: Yeah, interesting. Do you remember sort of a high and a low of your time at Norwich? WL: Yes. So I'll give you the low. I discovered my entire Navy ROTC class cheating on a test. They were in the barracks. I walked into a room, they had the quiz that I had just taken and they were kibitzing about the answers on the quiz. And I said, "Guys, I'm not gonna say anything, but go back, give them the test and tell them you need a different test So that everything's good." And they didn't do it and I, I remember the gut wrenching decision to tell the instructor. And the instructor, I remember him vividly, a guy named Lieutenant Fricke, he said, "Well I didn't see it and I don't, there's no, nothing to suggest that it actually happened other than you." And I said, "Well, I'm telling you it happened." And he said, "Well in the absence of something else to 5 corroborate that there's nothing I intend to do about it." And so I complained to the school. I actually didn't, someday I can dig up all the letters I wrote to President Todd and to Tim Donovan, who I've since become quite friendly with, and I complained pretty vocally. I wrote a letter to the Guidon, complaining that the school wouldn't take action on this and how contradictory to the school's value it was. And that was a very troubling time, that was my junior year I believe. It was a very troubling time for me, I just felt that Norwich didn't rise to the occasion to seize an opportunity to, to live its values and… SY: And what about your peers? Did, they knew you had reported them? WL: Ah you know, obviously a lot of heartache with some of my peers. To this day some of them probably wouldn't say hello to me. I'm okay with that. It's, you know, it is what it is and they are who they are, and I'd rather pick friends that are, share my values. SY: And you acted with integrity so if they can't handle that they can't handle that, yeah. WL: Yeah. The friends that I had are still my friends and so, you know, they got it, they were like, "You did the right thing, so hold your head high and be proud of what you did," so. SY: You know I see that today with students, that they seem torn between two things that Norwich teaches - one is the loyalty to the Corps, right? WL: Yeah. SY: And the other is this idea of sticking up for what's right even if pushes against the group and I'm wondering, that's a really great illustration of that conflict. WL: Absolutely. SY: Did you notice any other conflicts like that? Any other people struggling with that? Did you have other incidents like that? WL: I can't point to any. You now there were rumored to be all kinds of activities on campus that were, were in one sense these incredible examples of loyalty - we'll use the Knight Riders as an example, right, this mythical organization that supposedly existed. And then, so they're loyal to each other, and supposedly to the University, and allegedly worked to the betterment of the University, at least in their own minds. And then of course there's the things that they were accused of doing that some would say that they did do in terms of beating people up that didn't fulfill the you know the model cadet role. And so you know I think that's another example of it. I didn't personally witness any of that, but I heard plenty of the, we call it the rumint, you know rumor intelligence about that sort of thing. I didn't, I have to say in my four years at Norwich I didn't really indulge in that much, so it wasn't an important part of my experience. But I think that in any organization, the Army is an excellent example, there are constant, there's constant tension between loyalty to your brothers and to your service and the integrity of doing the right thing all the time. And, you know, the history of the Army is rife with people that make wrong decisions for the right reasons, if you want to say it that way. And so, you know, it's very, very hard to straddle very important values that span or are in that dynamic tension. And that's a really good example of it. 6 SY Yeah and I think, I'm gonna sort of ask you about that as we go through and talk about your military career when you leave Norwich that theme, because the citizen soldier seems to me be about that, that conflict, right? Especially because you have the Corps and then you a liberal arts education, right? And I talk to professors all the time who are like, "And I'm teaching them critical thinking and they're also learning how to follow orders. And sometimes they don't know in my class that they're allowed to disagree." You know it's like a different mentality, yeah. Okay, so your senior year you get commissioned by the Army? WL: Yes. So that was probably the highlight and I, obviously you would hope that would be a highlight is graduation, commissioning, I think just prior to that I found out that I got an A on my senior project, and that was a huge milestone for me. My, my early years at Norwich were marked by severe underperformance academically. I finished my freshman year at a 1.8. SY: Why do you think? WL: I failed Calc I. That is really bad for Electrical Engineering students [laughs]. So I had to retake Calc I over the summer, but not taking Calc II in my second half of my freshman year prevented me from taking Physics I, and it had a huge snowball effect. So I ended up graduating from Norwich with a 2.32 grade point average which was, I think, the third worst in my class, or it's in that range. [clears throat] My roommate happened to be lower than me so there was at least one lower than me. SY: That's always nice [laughs]. WL He's still still one of my best friends. But the fact that I managed - first of all had to catch up. So I ended up, there was one semester I took 22 credits just to get back on track because I came home from my freshman year and I told my dad that, "I think I need to change majors. This electrical engineering thing, I'm, it's not working out for me." And he said, "I'm paying for the next three years. You can finish up in the next three years. Your best chance of doing that is to stay in electrical engineering. So go back to school and get it done." So I did. I really wanted to change to diplomacy, and it didn't work that way. So I really had to catch up, I really did take a huge course load which of course, you know all my grades suffered when I was spreading myself so thin and trying to do Corps activities, et cetera. SY: Do you think it was also you didn't have to learn study skills in high school? WL: Yeah oh yeah, definitely. I mean Calc I, I was totally unprepared for the academic rigor of Calc I. Just totally not prepared for that, and it showed. So I did, I did the whole catch up thing and so by senior year I actually had a relatively normal course load again. And the fact that I, I think I got a 3.1 my senior year, to imagine that 3.1 still only got me to a 2.32 overall [laughs] should tell you something. But the fact that I got an A on my senior project was just a moral victory for me. And then so you know the crowning achievement of course was commissioning and graduation and everything that went with that. I was only the third person in my father's extended huge Irish family to ever get a college degree at that point. SY: So was your family ecstatic? 7 WL: Yeah, so the whole clan descended on Northfield. My father had eleven sisters and brothers of which one had passed by then, so everybody else descended on Northfield. They rented like a whole slew of condos over at Suagrbush and it turned out to be like a weeklong celebration. It was really quite something um… SY: That's awesome. And these are all like working class Boston cops and firefighters? WL: Yeah so my dad grew up in Roxbury and he was a firefighter. He ended up in Natick. He was an outlier, he actually moved all the way out to Natick at the time. One of my uncles was a Boston firefighter; another one was teamster, he drove an oil truck; another one owned a cleaning business. So they were working class people. Proud people. And my father was a very, very bright man but he decided he wasn't gonna go to college so that others could. That was really his decision. And so it was, it was you know it was a celebration of kind of that, "Well finally somebody's gonna move up the middle class," type of thing. So it was great, it was a lot of fun. SY: Yeah, and then what'd you do right afterwards? WL: So my, my orders to my military intelligence officer basic course weren't, didn't even exist yet. I got commissioned and went back into my Army Reserve unit but I had to do my officer basic course, and the next available slot was the following February. So I worked the summer at the tent company where I had been working summers, and then that job ended because the summer ended, and then I went back to work for the florist that I had worked at all through high school. And I worked there until February and then I, so that was kind of interesting working as a electrical engineer as a custodian at a florist company. And then I went to my officer basic course in Fort Huachuca, Arizona for six months. And that just so happened to coincide with the kick off for the Gulf War. So I was, you know, sitting in classes in Arizona trying desperately to try and get released so I could go to the war which is, you know, that's, it was the big show, who knows if there's ever gonna be another one, you know that sort of thing. SY: Oh back in the days when we thought there were no more wars. WL: Yes, right, Cold War was over and the Gulf War was the big show and— SY: Right that was gonna be it, the end. WL: So yeah, so of course they weren't gonna release me because I needed my officer basic course before they released me and then by the time the course was over it was all over but the crying, so. It was such a fast war. SY: And did you know anything about, I mean, did you know about Iraq at that time? Did you know anything about Kuwait? Did you know anything about Saddam? Had that been something you'd gotten at Norwich? Like that geopolitical understanding? WL: Yeah I had no geopolitical understanding from my time at Norwich. I did get a lot of that in the reserves and at the officer basic course. So I had a very, very solid footing on the geopolitical issues kind of as it was happening, I suppose you'd say, but definitely not while I was at Norwich. I was very, I had you know my, my ROTC unit, I was the first sergeant of the 8 freshman company when I was there. And I had no Corps responsibilities, and I had my electrical engineering curriculum. I was the president of IEEE, the Institute of Electrical Electronics Engineers, the student chapter, so nothing like picking the kid with the lowest cume in your class to be president of the social club. So that really took up my time and ah, there really wasn't a lot of time for much else. SY: Yeah that makes sense. Okay so you're all ready to go and the wars over. WL: Yup. SY: So what do you do instead? WL: So I came home and that was probably a lifetime low point. The economy in late '91 was absolutely atrocious. It was awful. No jobs anywhere. I went on so many attempted job interviews, you know just showing up at companies and filling out an application. And all the tech companies all over New England, and there was just nothing. And I ended up, let's see I sold pots and pans for a little while. I worked in a call center for a little while, and I was pumping gas for five dollars an hour in April of '92, so this was just about two years after graduation, when a good friend of my dad's drove into the gas station where I was pumping gas. It just so happened that the guy that owned the gas station was a selectman and I had run his campaign because my father was very active in town politics, and the guy that pulled in was a very good friend of the gas station owner and my dad. And at the time he was the Deputy Commissioner of Massachusetts Highway Department. And so he looked at me and he said, "Bill, why are you pumping gas? Don't you have an electrical engineering degree?" I said, "Yup. But there's just no jobs." And he said, "Well show up on Monday, you'll have a job." And I was like, "Show up where?" [laughs] He said, "Show up at 10 Park Plaza, that's where the Highway Department is. I'm sure we could use an electrical engineer." So that was my big break. I ended going to work for the Highway Department for two and a half years, and found a home and a career in an industry that I'm, I've been very fortunate to grow up in. And, you know its proof positive that family and your connections are as important as what you know. And that certainly worked to my advantage. SY: Yeah absolutely, and then you gone on, you've got like a gazillion degrees. WL: [both laugh] Well I'm, despite my undergraduate experience I've really come to appreciate learning and growing intellectually. So I've pretty much been in school ever since I graduated in one capacity or another with short breaks. There was my officer basic course, then my advanced course, and then after that you go to the Combined Arms and Services Staff School. And sprinkled throughout there I took some graduate classes at Northeastern, at UMASS Lowell, and then I completed the Command and General Staff College. And I really got bit by the bug, I decided in 1999 that I wanted to go to law school. And I'd always dreamed of going to law school when I was at Norwich but I, with a cume of 2.32 it was highly unlikely that I was gonna get in. SY: Well you also didn't have time to take classes that weren't electrical engineering classes.9 WL: That's true that's true. So, and and I set out to be a patent lawyer to utilize my technical background in the field of law. And in the '90s I worked for a consulting firm called HTSD and they did a lot of Wal Mart related work - site planning and transportation planning, traffic engineering. And I really found a niche presenting to local planning boards. And it just so happened I was elected to my hometown's planning board from '94 to '97, I think. And so I found, kind of found a home, I found a comfort zone with the planning board process. And I was attending a lot of planning board hearings and there would be a big high falutin' downtown Boston lawyer, and there would be a local planning lawyer, and then they'd put me out because I was articulate and could present technical information in a way that lay people could understand it. And I was at that time billing out at about 120 dollars an hour and the [clears throat] two downtown, the two lawyers were well above that, and they just sat there and listened. And so it kind of occurred to me, I'm like, you know, "I can sit there and listen for a lot more money and be happy" [laughs]. So I really decided in my mind that I wanted to go to law school. And so in '99 I left the consulting firm and I went to work for the City of Somerville as the traffic and parking director and worked in that capacity directly for the mayor. And I was in her office one day, at that time I was, I don't know, thirty-one, and she said, "Bill, it's pretty clear to me you don't want to be traffic engineer the rest of your life. You've good political skills, and you've good communication skills, what do you really want to do?" and I said, "Well I really want to go to law school but I don't think I can get in. I have an application pending at Suffolk, you know I just don't have the grades. I did okay on the LSAT." And so she said, "Sit right there." So she went into her private office and then she came out and she said, "You're gonna get a letter of acceptance in three days. Don't embarrass me." So she pulled a string, again it's who you know not necessarily what you know, and I went to law school. It actually took me seven years to graduate because I deployed twice. I deployed in 2001 to Bosnia, and then 2003 to Iraq, and so uh I had to take military leaves of absence for those two. The school was great about it, but. So in 2007, believe it or not, I finally completed the law school program at night. And like I said, you know I've been very, very oriented towards continuing my academic interests ever since then. I did the Joint Forces Staff College, and I did the Army War College, and I did - of course the War College is a master's degree producing program. And then the, I did the master's in transportation and urban systems at North Dakota State University. So it's fun. SY: You have a lot of degrees. WL: Its fun. I enjoy it so you know it's something that I feel incomplete if I'm not constantly studying, learning something. SY: I mean you're preaching to the choir, I have two master's degrees and am gonna go for a third at some point. WL: There you go. SY: I hear you. So let's go back, let's rewind actually, and let's go back to your deployments. WL: Okay. SY: So it's 2001. 10 WL: Yup. SY: So can you tell me that story? WL: Sure, in December of 1999 I was alerted that I was gonna get mobilized. Is that right? No, December of 2000 I was alerted that I was gonna get mobilized for Bosnia rotation. And at this time it was strictly a peacekeeping mission and there were actually several opportunities for me to jump off that bandwagon. But once I was starting to go down the path I was like, you know, "I've spent my entire time in the Reserve wanting to someday get mobilized. And here I am, you know, I have an opportunity to get off the train and I just really wanted to fulfill that particular aspect of my life and go on a mobilization." SY: Yeah, what's the desire to mobilize? What was the…? WL: Well I think on several levels. One is you know you get so invested in all that training. I mean if there's one thing the Army is particularly good at is training, constantly training and it's a huge investment. And I felt like I just wanted to realize the return on that investment, on some level. I also felt like the citizen soldier mantra of Alden Partridge was kind of a river running through that whole thing, because at the time the active Army was trying to turn that mission over to the Reserve and National Guard, and it just seemed to me a very logical extension of everything that had been my life to that point. You know it was a peacekeeping mission, it wasn't a combat mission. I had, you know, I don't know how much time you've been in Somerville, it's a tough town so one could say some of what I did there is peacekeeping. And it was, you know, it was it was nation building it was community building and to me that felt very satisfying, it felt like a good match for everything that I had to offer at that time. And I just really wanted to see that through. SY: Yeah. WL: So we mobilized in August of 2001. So there was a nine month buildup of this constantly training and repetitive drills and paperwork. SY: And what was peacekeeping, I mean obviously the mission became different, but what was peacekeeping gonna look like? WL: Peacekeeping was supposed to be having a continuous presence in the communities that had been torn apart by the civil war. In part to provide a buffer between the warring factions, but perhaps more importantly to set the example of how to do things right, to provide that beacon of democracy and hope and and and what, you know, the model of western democracy should look like. So a lot of it was anticipated to be monitoring elections, and providing a presence in the towns so that there was no opportunity for the warring factions to engage in what could be provocative. SY: Weapons or no weapons? WL: Um weapons. SY: Weapons. 11 WL: Yup and there wasn't, it wasn't expected you'd need the weapons and not to split hairs but the Army calls that form of peacekeeping peace enforcement, whereas true peacekeeping is without weapons. And so you can argue one way or the other, you know, what the intended mission was. NATO calls it peacekeeping, we were calling it peace enforcement, but it's because we had weapons. So we mobilize in August. We went to Fort Bragg for a couple weeks to train up with our active duty counterparts, got on a plane on September 10, flew from Fort Bragg to Fort Drum, picked up a whole bunch of soldiers at Fort Drum, and then flew from Fort Drum to Ireland, and then landed in Ireland. And then when we took off from Ireland and flew to Tuzla Main, which is the airfield at the Eagle Base, in that time the attacks in 9/11 occurred. So we landed at Eagle Base, and the whole plane cheered [laughs] because it was the culmination of literally ten months of training. We're like, "Yes, we finally made it. " There was on our plane a whole bunch of reservists from New York, New York City in particular. So when we coasted to the end of the runway we all expected to get off fairly quickly and nothing was happening. So we were all kind of bewildered, you know. And then the post command sergeant major, we didn't know he was the command sergeant major at the time, but the post command sergeant major came on the plane and he said, "I regret to inform of what's taken place in the United States. And gentlemen, ladies, the United States is at war and stand by for further instructions." So me and a bunch of my friends on the plane we were, you know, we kind of concluded in our minds that this was a drill. The Army's prone to coming up with these ridiculous scenarios and saying, "Okay you have one hour to brief the commander on what you would do under these circumstances." So, you know, we're all huddling, "What do we do, you know, what do you think we should do?" And we really had resolved in our minds that it was an exercise. And then not too long after that junior enlisted guy came on the plane and he said, "Okay, we really don't know what's going on in the world but we're in a predominately Muslim country. Everybody is gonna get their ammunition basic load as they get off the plane, and stand by for further instructions. Most of you guys are standing post until all this gets sorted out." So right then we knew it was no kidding. So the kids that were from New York City on the plane were obviously were very concerned about their families, and there were lines set up to use the very few phone lines on base. SY: Hey and we're going. WL: Excellent. SY: Look at that. Okay I feel good about that. Here we go. Okay so you're in the intel business, the mission is changing. WL: The mission changed. My job was to be the requirements manager, which is to determine what things get collected on. And then there are different means of collection. There's foot patrols, which was the vast majority of our intelligence collection. We had aerial intelligence platforms, and signals intelligence platforms, and various other means of intelligence collection. But my job was to figure out which asset would collect against which requirement, and then my boss who was the collections manager, would task out all those tasks to the various subordinate elements. And, you know, I was anticipating that my job would be mostly collecting about economic intelligence, political intelligence, issues related to governance. And it turned out that 12 there was still some aspect of that, but I really had two tasks: one was to help catch persons indicted for war crimes, which was our exit strategy to catch the we call them PIFWCs (Persons Indicted for War Crimes), PFWCs. So one job was to try and track those folks down so they could be captured by Special Forces, and the other job was to do directed patrols in neighborhoods and areas that were the more conservative and known extremist-view Muslim groups. So when Bosnia had its civil war a lot of freedom fighters actually came from the Middle East and from Northern Africa to Bosnia and settled there, married into the community, and so those communities were obviously of great concern to us at the time because we really didn't know what exactly was gonna occur. So that was, that took up a lot of time. SY: And what [coughs] what did you end up concluding about those communities? WL: Um so some, there was some activity there that was responded to appropriately. I was tangentially involved in the, the detention of the Sarajevo group that was trying to break into to U.S. Embassy. And that group actually ended up in GTMO so I was partially involved in the intelligence lead up to that particular operation. And I think that's probably the biggest operation that we were involved in. We were involved in other couple other operations and then on the other side I was very involved in the PIFWC hunting, which I thought was probably one of more rewarding parts of my time there. SY: Yeah I would imagine. Yeah and so what ended up, did you capture some people? WL: Ah yes, whose names they are anymore I can't remember. SY: Right, unless it's Milosevic, I won't remember either. WL: No, we were—the guy that we were really hunting was Radovan Karadžić and we didn't catch him. The French dimed us out and he escaped because the French gave him a heads up. SY: Huh, why they do that? WL: Um, that's a really good question. The French were very sympathetic to the Serbs, and I don't really know why that was but they had a very sympathetic posture towards the Serbs in the conflict. So they caught the guy on his cell phone telling Karadžić to escape and so he made a very speedy exit out of Bosnia. But from that point forward there was some very deep soul searching about who we shared intelligence with and that was a pretty tough thing to lose out on, you know. SY: Hm. You don't think of the French being people U.S. intelligence has to watch out for. WL: Yeah well I mean they're, they're, you know on a geopolitical level they are actually one of our biggest adversaries from a spying point of view. SY: Really? WL: Yeah. SY: Fascinating. WL: Yeah there's all kinds of open source documents on that you can read about [laughs]. 13 SY: Okay I'll go educate myself about that later. Um okay, so that's Bosnia and then there's Iraq. That's 2003. WL: Yeah so I was home for 10 months and the Iraq War was spinning up, and one of my closest friends who was my boss in Bosnia called me up and said, "Bill, we're putting together the band. We're going back, we're going back on active duty. Do you want to come?" And I said, "Well, let me think about it, talk to my wife, see what I wanted to do." And after a lot of soul searching you it just seemed to be the right thing to do to go with people I knew rather than wait a couple of years and be an individual mobilization placement and go with people I didn't know. So, you know, a couple of days' worth of serious soul searching and you know thinking about all that it would mean to my family, I decided to go. So I got mobilized in February of 2003, went to Fort Dix for our pre-mobilization training and activities. Spent about a month there, then got sent to a forward operating base called Camp Virginia in Kuwait, spent another month there getting all of our final shots and getting our vehicles in country and getting ready to go. And then during the ground war we got the go-ahead to go over the berm and head into Iraq. So we had a seventy-five vehicle convoy that took off out of Camp Virginia and convoyed just about twenty-four hours straight all the way to Camp Balad, which had numerous different names over the years, but it was Balad Army Base. And we ended up there for abou--I was there for about a month and a half. When we got there everybody they just said, "Freeze wherever you at, the ground war is over. And now were gonna consolidate on the objectives." And so we stayed there and made camp for about a month and a half. And then there was a call for augmentees to go to Baghdad to help staff up the new headquarters for the theater - the entity was called Combined Joint Task Force 7. So I was deemed not essential to my battalion headquarters. I had been the assistant S3 battle captain for operations and plans, and so they just said, "Listen you get a whole bunch of extra captains down there at the 325th MI Battalion, cough up two and send them to Baghdad and please send ones with human intelligence experience." So I didn't actually have human intelligence experience, but they sent me anyways. And me and one of my best friends got sent to Baghdad. He ended up being the battle captain of the CJ2X which is Combined Joint, 2X is human intelligence section. And I ended up being the human intelligence operations officer for the theater. And that, phew boy, that was probably one of the most traumatic, interesting, dynamic, fulfilling, every possible emotion you can think of. SY: So let talk about 'em, let's tease it apart. So what's, what's traumatic, what's fulfilling, what's? WL: Well it was a fairly easy job from June, I think I got there June 6, until mid-to late summer, and then the insurgency started. So it was initially really exciting to be in to be involved in the setting up of this new headquarters and the staffing of it and the policies and procedures that went with it and standard operating procedures and writing. We were still doing detainment operations and one of my responsibilities was again was to think about the requirements, what we needed to collect intelligence on from a detainee point of view. And I had a hundred tactical human teams out in the field that were collecting intelligence, and my job was to figure what they should collect on. So I had this huge enterprise that I was working on. I was only an Army captain and it was a huge scope for somebody with very little experience in that realm. And I,14 you know I sip from a fire hose for about two months, and learned a lot, and filled my brain up with a lot of cool experiences that I only learned about in books. And so that's kind of the fulfilling part. And then when the insurgency started we had a commanding general named Ricardo Sanchez, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, and he turned out to be perhaps the most toxic leader I've ever met in my life. He would, he would question everybody's performance of their specific jobs without any inkling of what their job actually was. He was heard to say things like, in front of thousands of people in the battle update brief, he'd say things like, "Why are we catching so many people and detaining them, why don't we just kill them?" So that environment bread a lot of, just a toxic environment. And if you're, if you're a malevolent person looking for an excuse to be and have an outlet for that malevolency, that's a license. And, and what that ultimately, in my experience, devolved into was the Abu Ghraib problem. So for me in August, August-September of 2003 we had an interrogation and detention facility over at Camp Cropper which is on Baghdad International Airport, and the international community for the Red Cross came and said, "These are inhumane living conditions. You gotta get these detainees out of here." So working with the MPs we had to find someplace new to put them and it just so happened that the prison, the maximum security prison out of Abu Ghraib - they're actually four prisons on the Abu Ghraib complex - had just begun renovations and it was intended to be used by civi-by the Iraqis for civilian detainees. And, and so we went out to take a look at it at the provost marshal's suggestion, and determined that it would be an absolutely magnificent facility for this. And kind of reflecting on the citizen soldier model, on my team of intelligence guys my driver and NCO in his civilian life was a corrections officer at Rikers Island; and my company commander was the president of state correctional workers in Massachusetts, the Correctional Worker's Union and he was, he was a, correction he was a corrections officer here in Massachusetts. So I brought them with me and I said, "You know we have to find some place to put the worst of the worst, the people we want to interrogate, what do you think of this facility?" And they were like, "This is perfect. This is the right place." SY: What made it perfect? WL: It was, ah, it was well organized, it was clean, it was neat, it wasn't in the bombed out parts, it wasn't in a mud puddle. It was just in immaculate shape because it had been renovated and it was perfectly suited for an interrogation facility. SY: So the thinking in some ways was that it would be humane? WL: Yes. Absolutely that was the absolute intention was to—when you have high level detainees you don't want them to think about anything else other than what you want them to think about. You don't want them thinking about how to escape the mortar attacks at night, you don't want them to—you want them to be thinking about whatever, whatever you're working on with them in terms of intelligence collection. So it was really an optimal facility. And so that was, you know that was a high point in my deployment. It was. I actually have pictures of me behind bars at Abu Ghraib. SY: I saw those pictures. WL: That's the day I picked Abu Ghraib. It was my staff action that made Abu Ghraib happen.15 SY: And they're really chilling in retrospect but at the time, right? And then and then it looks like you're seeing all the remains of Saddam Hussein's prison too. It looks like a lethal injection bottle and signs for death row and so I'm-I was trying to imagine what you guys were talking about when you were walking—there's graffiti, super weird pornographic graffiti. What were you guys talking about when you were exploring that building? WL: You know we'd already been briefed that Saddam executed about 30,000 people at that jail in his reign of terror. And we also knew that some pretty despicable things had happened out there. And so, you know, it was all to us almost surreal to be walking around and seeing all that wild graffiti, and the, you know we don't really know what was in those bottles but you can [laughs], you can make all kind of informed guesses. And then to actually go in the death house which, which ultimately got walled in so that people wouldn't go into it so it could be preserved for war crimes. Um, I mean that that to me was the closest thing that I have ever felt to death because you could smell death. It was it was an awful, awful, awful place. So that, you know, was traumatic on some level but the breadth of the experience for me was just absolutely incredible in terms of the scope of what I was involved in. SY: So let's go back to the citizen soldier idea to the idea of the ethical soldier. So what do you think happened there? What turned it into what it became? WL: So there was this enormous pressure starting with Secretary of Defense - Undersecretary of Defense - all the way down to Ricardo Sanchez: "We need to get more intelligence, more actionable intelligence so we can stop this insurgency." And the pressure, I can't even begin to describe the pressure that these people, these senior leaders were under. And I, I have the luxury now at this point in my career to have a sense of what that strategic leadership's like and how, how difficult it is to manage political expectations and, you know, the realities of a war torn environment. And I guess I can see how a twisted mind can get twisted to the point of losing the ability to be a genuine leader. And that's what happened. At all ranks people that could twist their social values to suit ends that were inconsistent with those values, those people were everywhere. And it permeated all the way down to the lowest level, it really did. I wasn't, I didn't personally didn't meet any of the MPs that were involved in the atrocities that happened at Abu Ghraib. I did know two of the intelligence people that were involved, not on a friendly basis but they were they were junior enlisted and I knew who they were and they weren't bad people, they just caught up in a very ugly situation. And so I think it was that that just that tiered level of toxic leadership that permeated everything - results now, don't care what the cost is. And, and I learned a lot from that experience. I learned, I learned really how easy it is for well-intentioned, well-managed groups to get off track because there's this abject fear and and apprehension about failing. Because you're failing your brothers in arms when they're getting killed every night from mortar attacks and roadside bombs, and so this this constant drumbeat of "Your brothers are dying, your sisters are dying on the roads of Iraq. You have to do something, you have to get this intelligence." And so when people say that enough, and you live through enough depravity, it's not hard to imagine how people can lose it and I think that's what happened. I really do. SY: And now you're a colonel so now you are higher in the leadership. How, how as a leader do you think you can prevent this type of thing from happening again? 16 WL: That's a, that's a good question. I've taken the last five years of my career and really focused on mentorship. I sit down with every single officer that I rate or senior rate and I'm, unfortunately I'm one of the rare people that does this. One on one I devote an hour at a time to each and every one of them and really have a conversation about values and how values are the foundation of citizen soldiery, because all my soldiers are reservists, and how values are really the foundation of good ethical leadership. And it might sound weird to have an hour long conversation about values but that time goes quickly when you have people that are engaged in it, and I can tell which ones get it and which ones don't get it. And the ones that get it are the ones that I invest my time in and the ones that just sit there and go, "Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir." "Okay [laughs], you don't really get it, so you know, you're not really on track." And that's how my ratings fall out. So that's my way of giving back, I guess, is to try and identify the people that I think have the moral footing necessary to be a strategic leader. SY: And so [coughs] if you were gonna give Norwich advice about how to train ethical leaders, right, who can who can stand up when things are toxic right, who can have integrity. What advice would you give them? WL: Excellent question. When I was a cadet, not a Norwich cadet, but an Army ROTC cadet and to some extent the Norwich thing, making second lieutenants was kind of a cookbook operation. It was "Here's the recipe. Put him in the box, sprinkle all the dust around him, shake it up, enough will stick. Send him all to all these very regimented courses. Get him smart about how the Army works and stick him in the force." And I think that was, I know that was a very Cold War mentality - shake and baking officers. Today's world is so much more complex. SY: Okay hold on one sec [sirens outside of office, interview pauses]. [interview resumes] WL: So now we live in the age of the strategic corporal, where the lowest private through social media can literally influence the battle. Abu Ghraib is an example of that, those pictures got out. And ah, so you have to teach leaders—it's much less a recipe than it is a crafting. Every individual needs to be crafted. They have to understand the strategic implications, they need to be taught how to think critically and creatively. The very volatile world that we live in with globalization, urbanization, mass communications, climate change—all these things weren't even in our vocabulary when I was a second lieutenant, because we were focused on the Cold War. And now our threats are more likely than not, the future threats are less about kinetic threats, somebody shooting at you, and more like what happens when a city of 24 million people gets hit with a tidal wave. And then what do you do? And you're a second lieutenant and you get put in charge of a bunch of people in that environment. There's no way that you can possibly teach a second lieutenant how to handle every single one of those situations. Whereas when I was a second lieutenant you had a cookbook, you followed the cook book, "Don't deviate outside of this, you'll be good." Now we have to encourage them to look outside of the four corners of their little world and figure out how what's on the right and the left is gonna impact their operation. And, you know, the military talks now not about the unknown but the unknowable. So as an intelligence officer the unknown was pretty daunting. My job was to 17 figure out what wasn't known and how to go know it, how to collect that information. What we talk now about the unknowable, the implication being, you can't know [laughs]. You can come up with various constructs of what that unknowable thing might do, and how you cope with that, but it's literally unknowable, you'll never know. And so that framework has to be driven into the lowest levels because those kid—those are the kids that are gonna make it survive. They're gonna go into villages with people who are living primitively and try and infuse in them our democratic Western values, and help them with development and conflict at the most elementary level. And that is not something you can get out of textbooks at Norwich. You have to go out in the wide world and see that. I love the fact that Norwich has a very aggressive international program now, because that is absolutely - I am utterly convinced that the future of education has to involve an international component so that you see, touch and feel how other people live and have an appreciation for other, other value systems other than Western value systems. SY: Seems like anthropology classes should be required too. WL: Language class, anthropology class. I know it's awfully hard to do that when you have a technical discipline like electrical engineering, but I think that it's we are doing our nation a disservice if we don't educate our children and our young adults to live in an increasingly global world. Insularity is the enemy of America's success, it really is. So I'm utterly persuaded by that. And a little aside - when I grew up in the Army it was all about the Cold War, the Russians were our enemies, anything to do with Russia was like, "ooh." And so just as an example of how things change, in Bosnia in 2002 I had a Russian Spetsnaz colonel - full colonel, I was a captain - I had a Russian Spetsnaz full colonel working for me, doing collection plans for the intelligence that the Russians were doing in their sector. We had a Russian sector. And the guy's name was Colonel Volkov and I befriended the guy, professionally, not personally, I befriended the guy. And we ended up having a very good cordial relationship to the point where on Defenders of the Motherland Day in, I want to say it was February or March of 2002, he invited me to be his distinguished guest at the Defenders of the Motherland parade and ceremony. And I ended up getting placed in the front row right next to the CG, and the CG sat down and he goes, "You're in the wrong place, move back captain, you don't, you're not a distinguished visitor." And I said, "Actually, I am, Colonel Volkov invited me." And he looked at me like, "What? That doesn't make any sense." And Colonel Volkov showed me that cooperation, even in today's environment, is possible, you know when you get down to the human level. He invited us to that event and then held a private reception for us with vodka and smoked salmon and toast and cheese. And then we moved from to that private reception to his group's his little special forces bar on the Russian base and we drank there for like four hours. And then we were all trying to leave and one of the traditions is to cut the patch off your uniform and exchange patches. So I was in the middle of cutting my patch off my uniform and the colonel was looking very longingly at my Gerber knife, it was a very basic folding knife. And I said, "Sir, would you like my knife as a gift?" And he said, "I could never accept," through his translator, he was like, "I could never accept such a generous gift." And I said, "Come on it's a thirty dollar knife," and I put it in his hand. And he goes, "And I must repay you." So he takes me to his private quarters. Now you have to keep in mind I'm on a Russian Army base in the middle of Bosnia and me and this colonel walk off into the woods arm and arm, half in the bag. And I'm gone, and all my 18 colleagues are like, "Where did Lyons go?" So I disappeared for an hour. He took me back to his private quarters. We drank Slobovicz and chatted a little bit down there, and then he reached into uni-his closet and he took his uniform, and he took every badge off his uniform and he said, "Is this a good enough gift?" And I was dumbfounded like, I have now all these Spetsnaz badges from Russia. And I said, "Sure." I'd have taken two, but I'll take it, you know? So I put it in my pocket, we had another shot of Slobovicz and then it occurred to me, "Oh my God, like I've been gone like an hour with a Russian Spetsnaz colonel and if they're not totally freaking out, something's wrong." So we go back and you know frantic, "Oh my God, thank God you're okay." And I went back to Eagle Base that night and I just reflected that a mere three years earlier we were mortal enemies, and to have that experience at that juncture in my life was just remarkable, remarkable. And it just proof positive that whatever today's situation is three years now it is not what you think it's gonna be and and and if Norwich doesn't produce people that can anticipate those changes and be ready for those challenges. You can't know them all, but you have to have the intellectual capacity to cope with them all, to adapt to them all. SY: And not knee jerk prejudices against entire peoples and populations or religions, right? WL: Exactly. SY: Because lo and behold [laughs]. WL: Yup, exactly. So that really opened my mind up to how important it is be, and I used the word agile because you have to be intellectually agile. You have to understand and perceive on a very subtle level all the little changes that are going around the world, and if you're not capable of doing that, you know, we're gonna make colossal strategic mistakes. The strategic corporal is gonna make a big blunder and jeopardize an entire national security strategy. And who better than to do that than citizen soldiers that have one leg in the civilian world and understand things from the civilian populous point of view, and one leg in the military world who have a greater appreciation of military strategy and tactics and operations. I think the citizen soldier brings that dimension to, a very much needed dimension to the national security strategy. And incidentally many senior Army leaders after thirteen years of war get it, they have had reservists in their headquarters and have had one on one contact. I myself, my boss in Iraq was General Barbara Fast, active duty, one star promotable, and I was in her office one day and she was briefing me-not briefing me but, you know, bringing me up to speed on a particular initiative [coughs]. And she says, "What do you think of this?" and I said, "Ma'am I think that's really awful idea." And she was startled, she said, "Nobody talks to me that way. Why do you talk to me that way?" And I said, "Ma'am, I'm a Reservist. If I can't be honest with you than I'm doing something wrong. If you like my advice and change your plan because I was honest with you, then good, you changed the plan in a way that I think is constructive. If you don't like my advice and you say, 'piss off,' I just say, 'good,' because you know I was heard, different ideas were on the table, and I wasn't a yes man." So I said, "Ma'am, you're always gonna get a very honest answer opinion from me. You might not like it but it's gonna be a very honest and direct opinion." And she goes, "You know, I have like twenty majors that work for me" (at this point I was a major). She's like, "You know nobody, nobody gives me honest advice, you're the only one." And from that point forward I was her go-to guy for the "is this a stupid idea or a good idea or whatever." 19 SY: So what do you think gave you the chutzpah to be able to do that, to sort of to speak your mind in that context? WL: I think it was a lifetime of of—first of all confidence in your analytical abilities which I, I've always been fairly confident in my analytical abilities. But I think it was the, you know, the lifetime of values thing, the integrity that my parents inculcated in me, and the school inculcated in this this this, "Always stand up for what's right approach." And, you know, the truth of the matter is you know we live in a somewhat political world so you do have to when to pick your battles and not everything can be a fight because that person gets nothing done. But you really have to be perceptive and know when is the right time to speak your mind and make your thoughts heard. And if you're judicious and thoughtful about it you'll get a reputation for being the one that can be called upon to consult with in tough situations. And I, I've been fortunate that that's been the case for me. I've been counsel now to people that I started as company grade officers that are now generals, and it's satisfying and rewarding when somebody calls you up and says, "Hey I got this, you know, this really tough problem, just wanted to talk to you about it, you know. I don't need an answer. I just want to talk it out." And it's very satisfying, it really is. SY: I can imagine, you know it's interesting at this point I've done a bunch of these interviews and in my experience it's reservists and ah helicopter pilots— WL: [laughs]. SY: Who their identity as citizen soldiers is about, you know, standing up for what you think is right even if it is pushing back against authority. And then people who are more Regular Army, that is not their mentality. It's interesting. That's what I've observed so far, yeah. WL: One of my, one of the, my, the deputy intelligence officer for Iraq, he was our boss for a little while, and he was responsible for the day-to-day operations and General Fast was the big thinker policy person. So Colonel Boltz is the guy's name, he's a Norwich guy, Norwich, I want to say '78, '79, Steve Boltz. He's currently the Deputy G-2 for U.S. Army Europe, fantastic guy. So he would come into our—we were behind a purple curtain believe it or not in our little headquarters, and he would come in and he would flip the purple curtain open, and me and my buddy who was Ponce, this guy's name was Captain Ponce at the time, he's now Colonel Ponce. He'd go with his really strange accent, "Ponce, Lyons, tell me the truth, all my majors lie to me and you're the only ones that tell me the truth!" And we'd sit down and we'd have an hour long bull session with this colonel because he could trust us to just tell us the way it was. And when we were flat out wrong, he'd explain it, he'd mentor us and say, "Just because you have the chutzpah to be honest with me. I'm gonna invest in you and, and mentor you." And so Ponce and he actually ended up being very close friends, and Bill just visited him in Europe like just two months ago. And he's just a fantastic guy, fantastic leader. I mean he was the, he's the classic guy who got to colonel speaking his mind but couldn't get to general because he spoke his mind. That's Steve Boltz and I appreciated him for all of that he was a really straight shooting kind of guy. Really, really cool. SY: So it seems like you've seen examples of really toxic leadership and really good leadership? 20 WL: I have, yeah, yeah. SY: And I'm wondering if I have more questions to ask you about that. I mean and you've served, you've served at all your deployments as an officer. WL: I have, yeah. SY: And I guess how do you think the experience is different um for somebody - I mean this is such a huge question - but for somebody who's enlisted. I guess I've been doing interviews in part with some people who've dealt with PTSD and it seems pretty clear that PTSD is more prevalent among enlisted men than officers, and I don't know if that's true or not true but do you have thoughts about that? WL: Yeah, it's not my experience. I think that officers tend to manage and conceal their PTSD because they're expected to. You're expected to be the tough one, the guy that keeps it all together, but there's ample opportunities, ample examples of officers that didn't keep it together. I'll give an example, my, my brigade commander, a guy whose name is escaping me at the time, he had the single largest military intelligence brigade ever assembled, seven battalions. It was huge and he was responsible for Abu Ghraib, the intelligence side of Abu Ghraib. And I remember being summoned to his office and a guy named Jonathan Carpik came to me and he, Captain Carpik, and he said, "Hey Colonel." I can't re—he's the guy pinning the medal on in my picture, and I can't--I'm just drawing a complete blank as to his name. He said, "He wants you in his office." Now he had this little closet of an office, it was literally a closet with a desk in it. And so I went and the door was maybe three inches open and I could hear sobbing inside. So I was like, "Well that's weird." So I knocked on the door and he said, "Come in," and I kind of cracked the door a little bit and he said, "Come on in Lyons." He was visibly shaken, and he looked at me he goes, "You know I never thought I'd say this, but I hate my job and I hate my life." And that was a full colonel in the middle of a combat environment. And if that's not PTSD I don't know what it is. So, you know he clearly was struggling like the weight of the world around him. I myself struggled with survivor's guilt coming home. SY: Can you talk about that? WL: Well I spent about a year in therapy just coming to terms with the various losses. Two guys in my unit got killed, Travis Fredrich and um Gregory Bellanger two, one was a cook that was on a convoy, the other was an intelligence interrogator who was killed in a in a mortar attack. And that was a bit of a loss and I came home and my Norwich class president Rob Soltes was killed shortly thereafter. He was an optometrist on a Civil Affairs mission in northern Iraq and he got hit by a VB IED and he died [coughs]. So those were very traumatic experiences for me, and what it resulted for me was you know those were lives that were lost. And first of all it could have been me and maybe I would have felt better it was me so that their families didn't experience the loss. But it also made me reexamine all of my own priorities in life, like and this is gonna sound trivial and trite, but how can I live better to make their loss worth it? So that's really been sort of the driving force behind my life since then. And then my bo--my roommate in Bosnia, a guy named Harold Brown who's from Bolton, Mass., Army Reservist, he ended up getting recruited by the CIA when we left Bosnia. And he ended up being an intel operative for 21 them. and he is the one of the guys that gets killed in Khost in the movie Zero Dark Thirty. That was what? Four years ago now, Christmas-ish? That was a huge loss, I mean that was very very traumatic. He and I were very close in Bosnia. We stayed close. So I still work with his family and we try to remember him every year. It's a very big loss, so. SY: I also would imagine coming home and then the Abu Ghraib scandal breaking would also be a bit of an existential crisis in addition, right? WL: Yeah. Well I and Ponce ended up being interviewed extensively, ah what's an AR-15-6 investigation, which is an investigation into potentially criminal activity. It's like a precursor to like a grand jury type of investigation. A guy named Major General George Fay came and interviewed us because of Abu Ghraib. And I was interviewed extensively as was Ponce, and you know looking, they were looking deep and desperately to try and find the trigger that caused all that and I mentioned I don't think it was anything specific, I think it was just pervasive. But um, but reliving all of that was very, very traumatic. And I'll tell you probably one of the weirdest things that I experienced in Iraq was at six months under the Geneva Conventions if you are a detainee you are entitled to a review of your detention. And so in August, which was roughly two--six months after the war started, we had to start reviewing all these cases. And I was appointed the guy that was gonna be the intel person coordinating the review of all the files. So there was an MP officer that was reviewing for threats, and there was an intel officer reviewing to determine if there was intel value in that detainee and whether we should keep them for the intel value. And so we were reviewing all these files and we literally had something like 14,000 detainees at this point, and I'm reviewing the earliest ones first because they're entitled to their review. So one of the first manila folders I'm handed, handed has a detainee number on the, you know the little piece that sticks out, index, and a name. And you open it up and there was nothing in it and I go, "Hey anybody have the information on this file?" "Oh no, I didn't see anything." So I called down to the detention center I'm like, "Hey I got this manila folder with nothing in it" [laughs]. And they're like, "Yeah that's all we got." I'm like, "Well how am I supposed to make a decision on that?" you know, "Go debrief the guy and find out what the circumstances of, at least the circumstances of capture were." So somebody goes into the pen and now this guy's been tied up for six months and when they go, "So you know what's the circumstances?" And so he was walking back from the hospital after carrying his daughter several miles to the hospital, dropped his daughter off. On his way home, um, the 3rd Infantry Division captured him because he was out past curfew. Got rolled up, sent to Camp Cropper, then sent off to Abu Ghraib and had spent six months wondering what happened to his daughter, wondering if his family knew where he was, wondering anything. And so, I mean if we didn't make an enemy out of this guy I don't know what would, right? So I reflected a lot of that. That definitely troubled me, you know, as I, as I came home and unwound from the war that. That, you know, that haunted me a bit. So, you know, PTSD comes in a lot of forms. Those are my forms. And there are all different forms, you know. It's… SY: Yeah I talked to a guy last week who was in Vietnam and Korea. And in his words he was "cuckoo" after Korea, that's what he said. So he was, he had PTSD after Korea. And he said oddly he healed himself in Vietnam because in addition to you know developing a missile, he 22 personally created these two humanitarian missions. So like they took some rice from the Viet Cong and the Army was gonna burn it and he was like, "Yeah I'm taking that over to that village," right? There was another instance where he took the packing crates and brought it over to build a school. And he said really beautifully that he was able to maintain his sense of himself as an ethical person even though he was doing other things that he didn't feel good about. Because of that he was able to, to not feel so messed up when he got home. WL: Yeah, it's a good outlet. I think everybody, that's really what you need is an outlet. SY: Yeah, and maintaining a sense of yourself, right? WL: Yup. Yeah absolutely. I spent the last—the first—when I was deployed my mayor got voted out of office so I came home to no job. SY: Oh no! WL: So while I was trying to figure what to do a friend of mine said, "Hey, we're gonna start an engineering company. Do you know anybody that'd like to run it?" and I said, "Well, me." So I took that job and the weird thing was for the first two or three months I couldn't do anything. I would sit in front of the computer and stare at it, do internet searches about the war, because I needed the "vig," you know, the excitement of being engaged. And it just occurred to me one day I was like, "I'm a basket case [laughs]. I am totally lost." And that's when I decided to seek counseling because I knew that there was something wrong with me, and it was very standard behavior for somebody that was so amped up 24/7. I worked eighteen hours a day on military stuff and then [snap] gone. SY: Welcome home! WL: Yeah, welcome home, get normal, put a suit on, sit in front of the computer and and build a company. I was like uhh…. SY: Ahh! [laughs] what do I do? WL: So— SY: Did you have that hypervigilance stuff too that a lot of people describe? Like scanning and— WL: No, I, I honestly didn't. I did some pretty crazy stuff in terms of convoying in Iraq, but I never felt like the, and some people describe it to me as sort of the razor's edge experience, like you feel like you're right out on the edge of stuff. I did a lot of convoying in the Highway of Death and I don't know why but it never, and I was very very, I was very attuned to the threat and I did everything that I was supposed to do, but I never felt that particular high. The high I felt was more about working with Special Operators to identify targets, and to me that was the most exhilarating thing that I could do. So I, you know convoyed to Tikrit, and I convoyed to out to Abu Ghraib a bunch of times. I convoyed to Babylon. That was a wonderful experience, I got to explore all the ruins. Oh it was just fantastic experience, just very, very, um, very rewarding to do that. And yeah, I mean I spent a lot of time on my way out to visit other agencies that I 23 needed to coordinate with as part of my responsibilities. And it just never occurred to me, I knew how dangerous it was but it never felt as exhilarating as the other parts of my job. SY: Hm. That makes sense. WL: The other people that worked for me were like, "Why do you go out so much?" you know, "You shouldn't be so quick to go out on these convoys." I'm like, "But it's my job. I need to talk to these people." They're like, "Use a phone." I'm like, "I can't get the same information on the phone, I gotta go talk to these people," so. My driver who was uh, Freddy Klein, who probably would much have preferred that I did not go out. He tried on numerous occasions to talk me out of my road trips but he and I almost met our fate, we got shot at from behind by our own people who discharged a weapon when they shouldn't have, and it went right between us. I was sitting in the passenger seat of the truck and he was sitting in the driver's seat of the truck, went by his ear by about six inches. Yeah it was a pretty interesting day. So that's the closest I came to getting shwacked. SY: That's pretty close [laughs]. WL: It was a big, there was a night we got 57 millimeter rockets raining on us, and so that was another fairly close call. It was quite the experience to say the least. SY: How'd you get that teacup? WL: So, um, when I went to the, I think they call it the Al Faw Palace, it's the the palace that was in the middle of Camp Victory. Camp Victory was actually forming at that time, like they just barely had the perimeter secured when I showed up. And I had this guy who was a Marine Corps Major, a guy named Bob Sirks who was nominally my boss for three weeks or something. And he goes, "Have you been in the palace?" Now the palace was supposed to be off-limits, we weren't supposed to go there. I said, "I haven't." And he goes, "Let's go in." I said, "I don't know." He's like, "There's nobody over there, nobody will ever know." He's like, "I've been inside, it's cool." I said, "Okay." So we, we found a way into the building, I don't even remember what way we got in and it was opulent - gold toilet seats and gold leaf everything. And so he goes, "Hey, let's go in the kitchen." So we go in the kitchen and this huge china set, now this was a palace, one of the many palaces that Saddam used, but this huge china set with the tea cups and everything just left untouched. It's just sitting there. And he's like, "Oh let's get a souvenir." I'm like, "I don't know, you know." He's like, "Oh just a tea cup." So, "alright just a tea cup." So he gets a tea cup and I get a tea cup and he goes, "Now what?" I said, "That's enough for me." And so he took a whole bunch of other stuff and I was like, "Well I got my one war trophy, I'll take this." So that was the tea cup story, and that particular day, again because there was nobody in the palace. There are a whole bunch of pictures in my CDs of being inside the chandelier which is a totally cool experience. There's a chandelier in the pictures and you can actually go inside the chandelier. SY: I somehow must have missed that set of pictures because I—you know what? Maybe there were two Iraq discs and I only looked at one. I'll go back and look later. 24 WL: Yeah, that was cool. And then there's a picture of me on the roof, and there's a hole in the roof so it's kinda like straddling my, I'm straddling the hole. And that's where a JDAM1 went through the roof and then you can see the picture of Saddam's bedroom that's blown to smithereens. And so that one bomb went down three stories and basically blew up on his bed. Of course he wasn't there, but the intent was to target him. And that was really proof positive that I was on the right side [laughs] just to see to see the technological advantage that we had. It was really really amazing. And the rest of the building was intact. It was just that room that was blown up. Everything else, the tea cups were all where they were supposed to be, the, nothing was affected outside of that. I mean it was really— SY: The building wasn't even rattled enough that the tea cups fell? WL: Yeah it was it was totally illus—illustrative of how we were— SY: Illustrative? I never know how pronounce that word, yeah. WL: Yeah you get the message. It was the, technical, technological overmatch was on, you know, absolute display in that, in that particular moment to me. It was really amazing, really amazing. SY: What'd ya think when you were walking though Babylon? WL: You know that was almost surreal. The Marines had kind of secured Babylon to prevent looting, and they hired the chief archeologist of Iraq to give tours. So this guy who was Saddam's chief archeologist showed us around all of the ruins of Babylon. And one of the weird things is that Saddam had—he was very envious of Nebuchadnezzar, the king that ruled Babylon. And he built a huge castle above Babylon to show his supremacy, but he later thought better of it and he wanted his castle built on top of Nebuchadnezzar's castle. So he actually in the process he sank Nebuchadnezzar's castle because it was on filled marshlands. So you can see the sinking process going on because stacked all these bricks with his stamp on it over Nebuchadnezzar's bricks with Nebuchadnezzar's stamps on it. But we saw the procession street where he had all his military parades and civic parades, the Lion of Babylon was still there. We got—I got pictures in front of the Lion of Babylon. It was a very rewarding experience. I can't say that I had a very classical education and that sort of stuff so I was kind of learning it on the fly with the chief archeologist of Iraq, so I guess you couldn't ask for a better teacher than that. It was a very, it was a very interesting experience. Very fun. SY: That's pretty cool. I have to head to Northbridge soon and I want to beat some of the traffic. WL: I got to go pick up my kids. SY: Alright, any last thoughts? This has been a fantastic interview. WL: Oh it's my pleasure. Um no. I, you know I will say that I owe my success to Norwich and to a number of leaders that were Norwich, and weren't Norwich, along the ways. One of my best friends is now a commander of my command in the Reserves, the military intelligence readiness 1 This is an acronym for Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), a bomb guidance system. 25 command. The guy's name is Brigadier General Gabriel Troiano. He's not a Norwich guy but he exemplifies the citizen soldier in my mind. He was my boss in Bosnia, he was my boss in Iraq, and now he's a brigadier general and that to me is proof positive that the right values system and the right leadership really does make a difference. It really makes a difference and I applaud Norwich for staying on that path all these years, and I hope that they stay on it. SY: Yeah, hey thanks! WL: My pleasure.

Texto finalizado el 15 de diciembre de 2023. Esta Nota Internacional es el resultado de la reflexión colectiva del equipo de investigación de CIDOB. Coordinada y editada por Carme Colomina, en el proceso de redacción ha contado con aportaciones de Inés Arco, Anna Ayuso, Ana Ballesteros, Pol Bargués, Moussa Bourekba, Víctor Burguete, Anna Busquets, Javier Carbonell, Carmen Claudín, Francesc Fàbregues, Oriol Farrés, Agustí Fernández de Losada, Marta Galceran, Blanca Garcés, Seán Golden, Berta Güell, Julia Lipscomb, Bet Mañé, Ricardo Martínez, Esther Masclans, Óscar Mateos, Sergio Maydeu, Pol Morillas, Diego Muro, Francesco Pasetti, Héctor Sánchez, Reinhard Schweitzer, Antoni Segura, Cristina Serrano, Eduard Soler i Lecha, Alexandra Vidal, Pere Vilanova.  2024 será un año de urnas y armas. Las elecciones celebradas en más de 70 países, que actuarán como un test de estrés para el sistema democrático, y el impacto de la multiplicidad de conflictos que alimenta la inestabilidad global definirán un mundo en plena transición de poder y en claro retroceso humanitario y de derechos fundamentales.Se acentúa la erosión de las normas internacionales vigentes y aumenta la imprevisibilidad. 2024 empieza totalmente abierto, marcado por un mundo cada vez más diverso y (des)ordenado, definido por alianzas e intereses cambiantes en cuestiones como la competición geopolítica, las transiciones verde y digital o la seguridad internacional.Las consecuencias económicas de las sucesivas crisis serán más visibles que en años anteriores: el crecimiento económico será débil y el frenazo chino reverberará en las economías emergentes, cada vez más tensionadas por el endurecimiento de las condiciones financieras y la fortaleza del dólar.2024 será un año de urnas y armas. Un test de estrés tanto para el sistema democrático como para la multiplicidad de conflictos que alimenta la inestabilidad global. Seguimos ante un mundo desordenado, convulso y contestado, pero, esta vez, cualquier análisis pende del gran interrogante que supone el intenso ciclo electoral que marcará el próximo año. Con guerras abiertas en Ucrania, Palestina, Sudán o Yemen, el mundo concentra la mayor cantidad de conflictos activos desde el final de la Segunda Guerra Mundial. Por eso, la agenda geopolítica de los próximos meses se entreteje a partir del impacto mutuo entre los distintos conflictos bélicos y el veredicto que lanzarán los más de 70 procesos electorales marcados en el calendario.Hay elecciones que pueden definir guerras. Las consecuencias políticas de la brutal ofensiva israelí en Gaza o el estancamiento del frente de guerra ucraniano también dependen de la carrera presidencial en Estados Unidos. Las grietas en la unidad transatlántica y las cada vez más categóricas acusaciones de doble rasero en las lealtades de Occidente no son ajenas a lo que ocurra el 5 de noviembre de 2024 en las urnas estadounidenses. Un retorno de Donald Trump a la Casa Blanca modificaría por completo las relaciones de fuerza y la posición de Washington en cada uno de estos conflictos, desde el suministro de armamento al Gobierno ucraniano, al apoyo a Israel, o en la confrontación con Rusia o China.Pero no se trata solo del futuro de la democracia en Estados Unidos: más de 4.000 millones de personas irán a las urnas en más de 70 países. La Unión Europea (UE), India, Pakistán, Indonesia, México, Taiwán, Venezuela o Senegal… grandes actores con peso demográfico e influencia geopolítica protagonizarán un año de una intensidad electoral sin precedentes, que definirá un mundo en plena transición global del poder y en claro retroceso humanitario y de derechos fundamentales. Sin embargo, tanta concentración de elecciones no significa más democracia. Estamos en tiempos de inteligencia artificial (IA) y de sofisticación extrema de la manipulación que amenazan la fiabilidad de las urnas. Los sistemas híbridos ganan terreno, y está por ver si el ciclo electoral de 2024 acaba siendo un momento de profundización de la degradación o de resistencia democrática. La sensación de desorden no es nueva, ni siquiera su aceleración. Pero cada año se acentúa la erosión de las normas internacionales vigentes y aumenta la imprevisibilidad. El mundo es cada vez más descentralizado, diversificado y multidimensional. Se consolida este «orden múltiplex» –como Amitav Acharya lo describió ya en 2017– porque todo ocurre simultáneamente. Y, sin embargo, seguimos ante un rediseño del mundo todavía abierto porque esta simultaneidad de cambios concentra distintas pugnas en liza. 1. Más conflictividad, más impunidad2023 ha sido uno de los años más conflictivos en el mundo desde el fin de la Segunda Guerra mundial. En solo doce meses, la violencia política ha aumentado un 27%. Crece en intensidad y en frecuencia. La guerra en Gaza ha marcado el final de 2023, con sus más de 17.000 víctimas mortales contabilizadas hasta el momento, las advertencias por parte de Naciones Unidas del riesgo de colapso humanitario y de genocidio de la población palestina atrapada en la Franja, así como el pulso entre el primer ministro Benyamín Netanyahu y el secretario general de la Naciones Unidas, António Guterres, para intentar lograr un alto el fuego. En esta crisis continuada del orden liberal y en plena discusión sobre la validez del derecho internacional, Israel ha asestado un golpe profundo a la credibilidad de Naciones Unidas. El Consejo de Seguridad se ha convertido en un instrumento para la parálisis; una tenaza al servicio de los intereses de viejas potencias que han llevado a Guterres a admitir públicamente la frustración de la impotencia. Unas Naciones Unidas que, debilitadas políticamente, se aferran a su acción humanitaria sobre el terreno para intentar marcar la diferencia entre la vida y la muerte. Más de 130 trabajadores humanitarios de Naciones Unidas han perdido la vida en Gaza desde el 7 de octubre, el mayor número de fallecidos entre su personal en un conflicto de su historia. 2023 ha sido un año violento. Se estima que 1 de cada 6 personas en el mundo ha estado expuesta a un conflicto en los últimos doce meses. La sensación de impunidad y de menosprecio por la legislación internacional se ha agravado. No solo en Gaza. El enquistamiento de la guerra en Ucrania; la expulsión de la población de origen armenio de Nagorno Karabaj; o la sucesión de golpes de estados vividos en seis países africanos en los últimos 36 meses dan buena cuenta de este momento de «desregulación del uso de la fuerza», que se ha ido fraguando durante años de erosión de las normas internacionales. Y si a finales de 2023 asistimos a la retirada de las tropas internacionales del G-5 Sahel desplegadas en Burkina Faso y Níger, como ya ocurrió un año antes con la expulsión de los soldados franceses de Mali, en 2024 será la misión de Naciones Unidas en Sudán (UNITAMS) la que tendrá que abandonar el país antes del 29 de febrero. Una retirada que Human Rights Watch ha calificado de «abdicación catastrófica» porque aumenta el riesgo de atrocidades y abusos a gran escala en un escenario de guerra civil, limpieza étnica y hambruna que ya ha provocado más de siete millones de desplazados internos, convirtiendo Sudán en el país con un mayor número de desplazados internos de todo el planeta.Y, sin embargo, el combate internacional por poner límites a la impunidad se dotará de nuevos instrumentos en 2024. A partir del 1 de enero, la Convención Liubliana-La Haya en cooperación internacional para la investigación y persecución del crimen de genocidio, lesa humanidad, crímenes de guerra y otros crímenes internacionales podrá ser firmado (y ratificado) por los estados miembros de Naciones Unidas que deseen adherirse. Se trata del mayor tratado para la lucha contra la impunidad internacional, que facilita la cooperación interestatal en la investigación judicial de estos crímenes, garantiza la reparación para las víctimas y agiliza la extradición. En paralelo, Naciones Unidas también está elaborando una Convención contra los crímenes contra la humanidad con el objetivo de crear un tratado vinculante de derecho internacional, especialmente en un contexto marcado por el aumento de estos crímenes en países como Myanmar, Ucrania, Sudán o Etiopía. En otoño de 2024, la Asamblea General de Naciones Unidas tendrá que valorar el progreso de las negociaciones. Todo ello ocurrirá coincidiendo con los 30 años del genocidio de Rwanda.En marzo de 2023, la Corte Penal Internacional (CPI) emitió una orden de arresto contra el presidente ruso Vladímir Putin por crímenes de guerra en Ucrania, hasta ahora sin consecuencias. Sin embargo, si en noviembre de 2024 Putin decidiera asistir a la próxima cumbre del G-20 en Brasil, eso supondría un desafío para el país anfitrión ya que, a diferencia de India, Brasil sí es parte del Estatuto de Roma de 1998, el tratado internacional que condujo a la creación de la CPI. Si en un principio el presidente Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva aseguró que Putin no sería detenido en caso de acudir a la cumbre, después matizó que la decisión recaería sobre la justicia brasileña y no en el Gobierno. A pesar del pesimismo que pueda generar la eficacia de estos tratados, en los últimos meses hemos visto como, tras la ofensiva militar azerí en Nagorno Karabaj, Armenia ratificó en noviembre el Estatuto de Roma de la CPI, adquiriendo el estatus de país miembro a partir de febrero de 2024. Además, a finales de 2023, Sudáfrica, Bangladesh, Bolivia, las Comores y Djibouti reclamaron una investigación de la Corte Penal Internacional por crímenes de guerra, crímenes de lesa humanidad y genocidio en Palestina. Asimismo, en noviembre de 2023, las autoridades judiciales francesas emitían una orden de detención internacional contra el presidente sirio Bashar al-Assad –rehabilitado este mismo año con su retorno a la Liga Árabe, más de una década después de su expulsión– y varios generales sirios por el uso de armas químicas contra su población civil en 2013.2. La democracia, a examenMás de 4.000 millones de personas están llamadas a las urnas en 76 países, casi el 51% de la población mundial. Mientras la mayoría de la ciudadanía de estos países votará en democracias plenas o con imperfecciones, uno de cada cuatro votantes participará en comicios en regímenes híbridos y/o autoritarios. Países como Rusia, Túnez, Argelia, Bielorrusia, Rwanda o Irán instrumentalizarán estos procesos electorales para tratar de fortalecer a los liderazgos en el poder y ganar legitimidad ante sus ciudadanos, mientras que casi la otra mitad del electorado ejercerá su derecho a voto en países que, en los últimos años, han mostrado una erosión democrática o tentaciones iliberales, como en Estados Unidos o India.2023 se cierra con la toma de posesión del «anarcocapitalista» Javier Milei a la presidencia argentina, que confirma la profunda crisis de los partidos tradicionales y el auge de las agendas radicales: desde el agresivo punitivismo penal de Nayib Bukele en El Salvador ―que aspira a la reelección en 2024―, a la irrupción electoral de Renovación Popular en Perú, refundada por el hoy alcalde de Lima, Rafael López Aliaga. Respuestas extremas a los distintos escenarios de crisis político-económicas y de seguridad. En Europa, las urnas europeas dieron una de cal y otra de arena, con la victoria de la oposición polaca, por un lado, y los buenos resultados del islamófobo Geert Wilders en los Países Bajos, por el otro. Pero el intenso ciclo electoral de 2024 será decisivo para saber si se consolida la contestación, la fragmentación y el auge del extremismo político que han transformado las democracias a nivel global, o bien si el sistema resiste.En este test democrático, el voto de las mujeres y los jóvenes será clave. Lo fueron en Polonia, como castigo a las políticas reaccionarias del Partido Ley y Justicia (PIS). En Brasil o Austria, por ejemplo, el apoyo de los hombres a fuerzas de extrema derecha es 16 puntos superior al de las mujeres. En México, las presidenciales de junio de 2024 elegirán, por primera vez a en su historia, a una mujer como presidenta del país. Las dos candidatas son Claudia Sheinbaum, exalcaldesa de la capital y representante del gubernamental partido de izquierdas, Morena, y Xóchitl Gálvez, en nombre de una coalición opositora de Frente Amplio por México, que agrupa, entre otros, al derechista Partido de Acción Nacional (PAN) y al Partido Revolucionario Institucional (PRI). En Estados Unidos, la movilización de las juventudes de origen latino será especialmente relevante. En los últimos años, más de 4,7 millones de jóvenes hispanos han obtenido el derecho a voto y su papel va a ser significativo en estados claves como Nevada o Arizona. Si bien esta cohorte tiende a mostrar una actitud e inclinación progresista, su perspectiva sobre los partidos dominantes es complicada: cuestiones identitarias, de discriminación o racismo suelen marcar su relación tanto con los Demócratas como con los Republicanos, y rechazan la identificación política, lo que refuerza la idea de que la polarización en Estados Unidos es más evidente entre los políticos que entre sus votantes. A pesar de ello, el miedo a unas elecciones injustas ha aumentado dramáticamente (del 49% en 2021 al 61% en 2023). Aunque la desigualdad económica sigue siendo la principal amenaza percibida (69%) entre los votantes estadounidenses, el mayor desafío en esta carrera electoral es, probablemente, la presencia de Donald Trump, no solo porque su futuro inmediato está en manos de los tribunales, sino también porque si su candidatura llegara a materializarse significaría que el Partido Republicano habría decidido entregar su futuro al hombre que intentó revertir los resultados electorales de hace cuatro años y que el propio comité del Congreso, que investigó la toma del Capitolio del 6 de enero de 2020, acusó de «insurrección». A partir de enero empezarán las elecciones primarias y los caucus estatales; sin embargo, a falta de concretarse los candidatos definitivos, el imaginario de un posible duelo electoral entre octogenarios se resuelve, de momento según las encuestas, a favor de Trump. Mientras tanto, la fecha del juicio al expresidente se acerca peligrosamente al supermartes del 5 de marzo, el día en que 13 estados votan en las primarias republicanas.Una investigación de The Guardian con la Universidad de Chicago afirma que un 5,5% de los estadounidenses, es decir, 14 millones de personas, creen que el uso de la fuerza está justificado para restaurar a Donald Trump en la presidencia, mientras que otro 8,9%, unos 23 millones de estadounidenses, creen que la fuerza está justificada para impedirlo. No se trata de una tendencia aislada. El riesgo de inestabilidad política y de violencia vinculada a procesos electorales va al alza, así lo confirma la Fundación Kofi-Annan.También el futuro de una Unión Europea, que afronta este invierno con dos guerras en su vecindario, se decidirá en las urnas. Además de las elecciones al Parlamento Europeo, que se celebrarán entre el 6 y el 9 de junio de 2024, 12 estados miembros también tienen comicios. Las elecciones generales en Bélgica, Portugal o Austria serán un buen termómetro para medir la fuerza de la extrema derecha, que aspira a salir reforzada de las elecciones a la Eurocámara. Si los comicios de 2019 determinaron el fin de la gran coalición que, desde los orígenes del Parlamento Europeo, había garantizado a socialdemócratas y democristianos una mayoría de escaños en el pleno de Estrasburgo, ahora el gran interrogante está en saber dónde quedarán los límites de la derechización de la UE. Las últimas proyecciones en intención de voto muestran resultados importantes para el grupo Identidad y Democracia (ID) –hogar de partidos de extrema derecha como el Reagrupamiento Nacional (RN) de Marine Le Pen o Alternativa para Alemania (AfD)– que llegaría hasta los 87 escaños y superaría a la otra familia de derecha radical, los Conservadores y Reformistas Europeos (ECR), que preside la primera ministra italiana Giorgia Meloni, que pasaría de los 66 eurodiputados actuales a 83. Sin embargo, y a pesar de la pérdida de escaños que sufrirían las fuerzas tradicionales, el Partido Popular Europeo (PPE) seguiría como la principal familia política de la Unión. Por eso, unos de los interrogantes de este 2024 es saber si ¿estaría dispuesto el PPE, que preside el bávaro Manfred Weber, a buscar una posible mayoría con la derecha radical?Las nuevas mayorías en la UE serán cruciales para decidir el futuro de los compromisos climáticos, la continuidad de la ayuda a Ucrania y las urgentes reformas institucionales que deben facilitar la entrada de futuros miembros. La ampliación tiene que pasar de ser una promesa a una realidad, pero la UE está cada vez menos preparada para llevarla a cabo. En 2024, cuatro países candidatos a la Unión celebrarán elecciones: Bosnia y Herzegovina, Moldova, Macedonia del Norte y Georgia, además de la incógnita que pende sobre la convocatoria de elecciones en Ucrania. Según su Constitución, Ucrania debería celebrar comicios en marzo de 2024. Pero, bajo la ley marcial, impuesta tras la invasión de Rusia en 2022, con una parte del electorado reticente a ir a las urnas en plena excepcionalidad, y con ocho millones de refugiados ucranianos fuera del país, Volodímir Zelenski ya apuntó en noviembre que no era «el momento adecuado».También un Reino Unido en plena crisis política y social podría avanzar elecciones generales, previstas para enero de 2025. Con un escenario desafiante para los conservadores frente al Partido Laborista encabezado por Keir Starmer, el actual primer ministro, Rishi Sunak, tiene discreción para elegir la fecha de los comicios. Otro de los interrogantes es Libia que, tras quedar pospuesto indefinidamente en 2021 el plan de Naciones Unidas de celebrar elecciones, la incapacidad de alcanzar un acuerdo entre los miembros de los dos gobiernos en el este y el oeste del país ha vuelto a mover la fecha de una posible celebración de comicios a 2024.En África, se celebrarán 16 elecciones, aunque solo seis de ellas tendrán lugar en países considerados como democracias. Treinta años después de las elecciones de 1994 en Sudáfrica, que marcaron el inicio de un viaje democrático dominado desde entonces por el Congreso Nacional Africano (CNA), el panorama político empieza a cambiar. Las elecciones generales de 2024 pueden confirmar el debilitamiento del poder y de los apoyos al CNA, mientras los principales partidos de la oposición buscan alianzas para presentar una alternativa. Además, la complicada situación económica, unida a otros factores como la corrupción, ha hecho que crezcan en popularidad partidos extremistas.También en India la oposición se presenta más unida que nunca ante un Narendra Modi que aspira a renovar un tercer mandato en primavera. Aupado en el nacionalismo, la polarización y la desinformación, Modi exhibirá los logros económicos y geopolíticos del país que en 2023 superó a China como el más poblado del mundo.Finalmente, está por ver qué grado de participación podrá tener la oposición venezolana en las elecciones presidenciales pactadas por Nicolás Maduro para la segunda mitad del año. De momento, el panorama interno se ha enrarecido todavía más con la intensificación del conflicto territorial con Guyana y la movilización del ejército. 3. De la saturación informativa a la desconexión social Nos encontramos ante unas sociedades cada vez más cansadas. Abrumadas por la saturación de contenidos y exhaustas por la velocidad de los cambios que deben digerir. La incertidumbre política y electoral, así como la multiplicidad de conflictos que marcarán el 2024 alimentarán todavía más el desfase entre sociedad, instituciones y partidos políticos. La cantidad de personas que declara «evitar» ver las noticias permanece cerca de máximos históricos, y es especialmente visible en Grecia (57%), Bulgaria (57%), Argentina (46%) o el Reino Unido (41%). ¿Las razones principales? La repetición excesiva de algunas informaciones y el peso emocional que pueden comportar para la salud mental de la población. En concreto, esta fatiga apunta, según el Reuters Institute, a cuestiones como la guerra en Ucrania (39%), la política nacional (38%) y a acontecimientos relacionados con la justicia social (31%) con altos niveles de politización y polarización. Los ecos de la pandemia de la COVID-19, las imágenes de la violencia bélica y su impacto económico sobre unas condiciones de vida cada vez más adversas para la población han amplificado esta tendencia a la desconexión social, agravada por el sentimiento de soledad y la polarización. No obstante, esta reducción del consumo periodístico se ha dado en paralelo a un mayor uso de redes sociales: las nuevas generaciones, por ejemplo, cada vez prestan más atención a influencers que a periodistas. A su vez, crece la fragmentación de las redes sociales. La migración de usuarios hacia Instagram o TikTok también ha alterado la forma de consumir la actualidad, con una priorización del contenido de ocio en lugar del informativo. No se trata solo de una renuncia voluntaria a la información, sino que esta tendencia de desconexión también ha llevado a una reducción en la participación social y en los debates en redes tal como se vivieron durante las primaveras árabes en 2011, en la movilización del MeToo o en el Black Lives Matter. Casi la mitad de los usuarios de redes sociales abiertas (47%) ya no participa ni reacciona a las noticias. Pero, además, la desconexión informativa también está vinculada a la desconexión política y a las transformaciones sociales que han alterado claramente los comportamientos electorales. Los cambios demográficos relacionados con el uso de la tecnología y el contexto de volatilidad permanente también se han traducido en una menor fidelización del voto, lo que ha contribuido a la crisis de los partidos tradicionales. El elemento identitario de pertenencia a un partido ha mutado entre los más jóvenes. La identificación se construye desde el posicionamiento en cuestiones como el cambio climático, la inmigración, el racismo, los derechos de las mujeres o el colectivo LGTBI+, o incluso el conflicto de Israel y Palestina. El 65% de los adultos estadounidenses declara que se siente agotado, siempre o con frecuencia, cuando piensa en política. Según el Pew Research Center, 6 de cada 10 estadounidenses en edad de votar admite tener muy poca o ninguna confianza en el futuro del sistema político de su país. Y este descontento se extiende a las tres ramas del gobierno, a los actuales líderes políticos, y a los candidatos a cargos públicos. Cuando se les pide que resuman sus sentimientos sobre la política en una sola palabra, el 79% se muestra negativo o crítico. Las más repetidas son los adjetivos «divisiva», «corrupta», «caótica» o «polarizada», y lamentan la sobreexposición mediática de los conflictos entre republicanos y demócratas, y la poca atención prestada «a los problemas importantes que enfrenta el país». La paradoja, sin embargo, es que este descontento ha coincidido, en estos últimos años, con niveles históricamente altos de participación electoral. La duda es si se repetirán en las presidenciales del próximo noviembre, especialmente cuando coinciden con otro elemento de desafección generacional como es la gerontocracia. En 2023, la media de edad de los líderes mundiales ha sido de 62 años. Para los jóvenes, los partidos políticos tradicionales han sido incapaces de articular una forma de comunicación directa, aumentando la sensación de desconexión entre sociedad, políticos e instituciones. En este contexto, una reedición de la confrontación Biden-Trump en 2024 enfatizaría la extrema polarización entre republicanos y demócratas en un ciclo electoral considerado de riesgo. El derecho al aborto y la seguridad siguen siendo puntos fuertes de movilización para los votantes.Por otra parte, la desconexión también puede ser forzada y, en ese caso, el bloqueo informativo se convierte en un arma de represión y censura de la libertad de expresión. Irán, India y Pakistán fueron los tres países con más restricciones al acceso de Internet en la primera mitad de 2023, y los tres celebrarán elecciones en 2024. Con el auge y la consolidación de la IA, la desinformación será uno de los retos adicionales de este superaño electoral, ya que su rápido progreso, especialmente en el ámbito generativo, puede proyectar una sombra todavía mayor sobre la confianza en la información y en los procesos electorales. El perfeccionamiento de los deepfakes, la rápida y sencilla creación de imágenes, textos, audios o propaganda por IA, así como la creciente dependencia de las redes sociales para consultar e informarse de la realidad, representan un caldo de cultivo para la desinformación en un momento en el que aún no existe un control efectivo de estas tecnologías. Quizás por eso la palabra del año de 2023 para el diccionario Merriam-Webster ha sido «auténtico». Con el preludio de aquella «posverdad» de 2016, la capacidad tecnológica de manipular hoy la realidad no tiene precedentes, desde la autenticidad de una imagen a la redacción de un trabajo académico. Por eso, más de la mitad de los usuarios de redes sociales (56%) dudan sobre su propia capacidad de poder discernir aquello que es falso de la realidad en las noticias de Internet. 4. Inteligencia artificial: explosión y regulación 2023 fue el año de la irrupción de la IA generativa; el año de la presentación en sociedad de ChatGPT que, en enero, solo dos meses después de su lanzamiento, ya contaba con 100 millones de usuarios y, en agosto, llegó a los 180 millones. Pero, la revolución también trajo consigo una nueva consciencia de los riesgos, aceleración y transformación que supone una tecnología que aspira a compararse con la inteligencia humana, o incluso a mejorarla o superarla. Por eso, 2024 será un año fundamental para la regulación de la IA. Las bases ya están puestas y solo hay que repasar las distintas iniciativas en marcha. La más ambiciosa es la de la UE, que está decidida a convertirse en la primera región del mundo que se dota de una ley integral para regular la inteligencia artificial y liderar el salto adelante que hay en ciernes. La Unión ha optado por categorizar los riesgos (inaceptables, elevados, limitados o mínimos) que supone el uso de sistemas de IA y obligará a realizar una «evaluación de impacto en los derechos fundamentales» antes de que un sistema de IA de «alto riesgo» pueda ser sacado al mercado. El acuerdo alcanzado el 7 de diciembre se ratificará en el primer trimestre de 2024 y dará paso a un período de dos años hasta su implementación total en 2026.Casi también en tiempo de descuento, el G-7 adoptó el 1 de diciembre de 2023 una guía internacional para desarrolladores y usuarios de la inteligencia artificial, especialmente para la IA generativa, que menciona la necesidad de introducir medidas para gestionar la desinformación, considerada uno de los principales riesgos para los líderes del G-7 por su impacto en la manipulación de la opinión pública a las puertas de un año de sobreexcitación electoral global.Pero el debate de la gobernanza va de la mano de la carrera geopolítica por liderar la innovación tecnológica y, a diferencia de la UE, en el caso de Estados Unidos y China eso significa, además, el desarrollo de su aplicación militar. Ambos países buscan afianzar su liderazgo, y la primera cumbre mundial sobre seguridad de la IA, convocada por el primer ministro británico, Rishi Sunak, se convirtió en el punto de encuentro de los grandes poderes globales –públicos y privados; tecnoautoritarios o abiertos– intentando regular o influir en los debates sobre regularización en curso. La cumbre tendrá una segunda edición en Seúl y una tercera en París, ambas en 2024. De momento, deja sobre la mesa la «Declaración Bletchley», firmada por 28 países, que recoge un compromiso para abordar las principales amenazas de la IA, un acuerdo para examinar los modelos de IA de empresas tecnológicas antes de su lanzamiento, así como un pacto para establecer un panel global de expertos sobre inteligencia artificial, inspirado en el Panel Intergubernamental de Expertos sobre el Cambio Climático (IPCC) de Naciones Unidas. Además, en la embajada de Estados Unidos en Londres, 31 países firmaron, en paralelo, una declaración (no vinculante) para establecer límites al uso militar de la IA. Por su parte, China continúa avanzando hacia su objetivo de alcanzar un 70% de autosuficiencia en tecnología crítica para 2025, mientras va aumentando claramente su presencia en los principales organismos internacionales de estandarización relacionados con la tecnología.A toda esta hiperactividad normativa, se sumará la adopción, en septiembre de 2024, de un Pacto Digital Mundial, durante la Cumbre del Futuro que organizará Naciones Unidas. Este pacto supondrá la creación de un marco de cooperación multiactor y multisectorial entre gobiernos, empresas privadas y sociedad civil, que debería establecer unas reglas comunes que guíen el desarrollo digital en el futuro. La aplicación de los derechos humanos en Internet, la regulación de la IA y la inclusión digital serán algunos de los temas principales a discutir.Esta necesidad de regular la IA se verá acentuada también, en los próximos meses, por una creciente democratización de las herramientas de IA, lo que comportará una mayor integración en distintos sectores profesionales. El foco en una IA responsable se intensificará a escala local (más ciudades desplegando estrategias o marcos regulatorios de la IA), nacional y transnacional. Y es que, a medida que la IA adquiere un papel más importante en la toma de decisiones en toda la sociedad, la seguridad, la confiabilidad, la equidad y la responsabilidad son fundamentales. El informe anual de McKinsey sobre el uso de herramientas de IA generativa señala que un tercio de las empresas encuestadas han empezado a utilizar este tipo de programas. El sector tecnológico y de comunicaciones (40%), así como el financiero (38%) y el legal (36%), se encuentran a la cabeza en su uso y aplicación. Sin embargo, este mismo estudio también señala que justamente los sectores laborales que dependen en mayor medida del conocimiento de sus empleados serán los que verán un impacto más disruptivo de estas tecnologías –si este impacto es positivo o negativo es aún incierto–. A diferencia de otras revoluciones que han transformado el mercado laboral, son los llamados «trabajadores de cuello blanco» los que pueden sentirse más vulnerables ante la IA generativa. En cambio, un estudio del Banco Central Europeo asegura que la IA no está suplantando a los trabajadores, pero sí está reduciendo ligeramente sus sueldos, especialmente en empleos considerados como poco o medio cualificados, más expuestos a las herramientas de automatización, y entre las mujeres.En el marco de esta aceleración reguladora de la revolución digital, 2024 también será el año en que la UE desplegará, con todo su potencial, la nueva legislación de servicios y mercados digitales para fijar límites y obligaciones al poder monopolístico de las grandes plataformas y a su responsabilidad en la propagación algorítmica de desinformación y contenido dañino. A partir del 1 de enero, las Big Tech se enfrentan al imperativo de cumplir con estas regulaciones, con multas potenciales por incumplimiento que alcanzan hasta el 6% de la facturación global, según la DSA (Digital Services Act), y entre el 10% y el 20% de la facturación mundial según la DMA (Digital Markets Act). También aumentará en 2024 el flujo de datos internacionales, en particular las transferencias entre la UE y Estados Unidos, en virtud del nuevo Marco de privacidad de datos aprobado en julio de 2023. Veremos también un nuevo escrutinio por parte de ONG y grupos de defensa de los derechos digitales para determinar la legalidad y el respeto a la privacidad individual en estos intercambios.5. Resaca económica y sostenibilidad de la deudaEn 2024 serán más visibles las consecuencias económicas de la sucesión de crisis experimentadas en los últimos años, especialmente el impacto del aumento de los tipos de interés para hacer frente al mayor repunte de la inflación en cuarenta años tras la crisis energética de 2022. Asimismo, el endurecimiento de las condiciones de financiación limitará la política fiscal, tras el rápido aumento del endeudamiento para hacer frente a los impactos de la COVID-19 y la guerra en Ucrania.En este contexto, el crecimiento será débil. El Fondo Monetario Internacional (FMI) no espera que la inflación se sitúe en el objetivo de la mayoría de bancos centrales hasta 2025, lo que augura tipos de interés elevados durante un largo período de tiempo, sobre todo si se vuelve a tensionar el precio del petróleo en un contexto de elevada incertidumbre geopolítica. La previsión de crecimiento del FMI para 2024 es del 2,9%, una tasa muy similar a la estimada para 2023 e inferior a las tasas de crecimiento prepandemia.Sin embargo, el enfriamiento será dispar por economías. Estados Unidos parece haber evitado la recesión gracias a la fortaleza de su mercado laboral y a los estímulos fiscales, por lo que se enfrentaría a un aterrizaje suave. En ese país, las políticas de relocalización industrial, como la Inflation Reduction Act, los beneficios empresariales récord poscovid, así como la extraordinaria pérdida de poder adquisitivo causada por la inflación han sido algunos de los ingredientes que explican el renacer del movimiento sindical estadounidense, sin precedentes desde los años setenta del siglo pasado. Su éxito puede ser contagioso a otros sectores y economías con mercados laborales tensionados. Así, en 2024, el descenso de la inflación y el alza de los salarios podría proveer de cierto alivio económico.En la UE habrá un mayor escrutinio sobre las cuentas públicas, especialmente de países con un menor margen financiero como Italia, tras el rápido aumento del endeudamiento para hacer frente a la pandemia y el impacto de la guerra en Ucrania, debido a las condiciones de financiación y la entrada en vigor de la reforma de las reglas fiscales. La «disciplina fiscal» estará también muy presente en la negociación del nuevo marco presupuestario de la UE (MFF, por sus siglas en inglés), donde la UE confrontará sus mayores deseos (apoyo a Ucrania, respaldo a la política industrial, la transición verde y aumento de las partidas para defensa, migración o el Global Gateway) con la realidad (falta de recursos y acuerdo para ampliarlos). La adopción de la Estrategia Europea de Seguridad Económica y el resultado de la investigación antidumping contra las subvenciones chinas al vehículo eléctrico determinarán en buena medida si en el frente económico la UE opta por alinearse con Estados Unidos en su competición estratégica con China o intenta mostrarse como paladín de una globalización reformada.También habrá que seguir de cerca la evolución de una China que se enfrenta a su menor crecimiento económico en 35 años, exceptuando los años de la COVID-19, lastrado por sus desequilibrios, especialmente en lo que concierne a una excesiva acumulación de deuda y a su dependencia del sector inmobiliario. El cambio de las reglas de la globalización impulsadas por la competencia estratégica de Estados Unidos lastrará también sus exportaciones y capacidad de atraer capital en un contexto en el que el liderazgo chino prioriza la seguridad económica al crecimiento. Con una demografía adversa, el país aún no ha conseguido erigir el consumo interno como motor de crecimiento.Por su parte, los países emergentes sentirán con fuerza el frenazo chino, especialmente aquellos con una mayor dependencia comercial y financiera. El éxito en términos de volumen de inversión de la Iniciativa de la Franja y la Ruta se ha visto ensombrecido por los problemas en la devolución de hasta el 60% de los préstamos, lo que ha llevado a Xi Jinping a anunciar una nueva etapa de inversiones con proyectos más pequeños. En 2024, el nuevo papel de China como prestamista de última instancia y su participación en los procesos de reestructuración de deuda de países en dificultades tendrán una creciente importancia en cómo es percibida y en su influencia geoeconómica sobre el Sur Global.Y es que un elevado número de países emergentes se encuentran en una delicada situación fiscal que, en un contexto de rápido tensionamiento de las condiciones financieras y de fortaleza del dólar, agrava también su vulnerabilidad externa. Aunque algunos de ellos, como México, Vietnam o Marruecos se están aprovechando de la reconfiguración del comercio y de las cadenas de valor (nearshoring), la mayoría de países emergentes pueden verse perjudicados por un escenario de mayor fragmentación económica. Según la Organización Mundial del Comercio (OMC), el comercio de bienes entre dos bloques geopolíticos hipotéticos –basados en los patrones de votación en Naciones Unidas– ha crecido entre un 4% y un 6% más lento que el comercio dentro de estos bloques desde la invasión de Ucrania.En este contexto de escaso margen monetario y fiscal, el colchón para amortiguar otra crisis es muy reducido, lo que puede exacerbar la volatilidad y el nerviosismo de los mercados ante episodios de incertidumbre. El principal foco de atención puede pasar de Ucrania a Oriente Medio, ya que los shocks de petróleo se transmiten a la economía de manera más amplia que los del gas natural. Esto podría afectar, directamente, a la UE y a España, especialmente dependientes porque importan más del 90% del petróleo que consumen. Además, las reservas estratégicas de petróleo en Estados Unidos se encuentran en mínimos equivalentes a los de 1983, y los pocos países con margen para incrementar su producción de crudo (Arabia Saudí, Emiratos Árabes Unidos y Rusia) puede que no estén por la labor de hacerlo sin concesiones políticas significativas.6. Sur(es) y Norte(s)tSi en nuestro ejercicio para 2023 anunciábamos la consolidación del Sur Global como espacio de confrontación y liderazgo, y apuntábamos a la presencia estratégica de India, Turquía, Arabia Saudí o Brasil, en 2024 esta reconfiguración dará una vuelta de tuerca más. Las contradicciones y fragmentaciones de esta lógica dicotómica Norte-Sur quedarán más expuestas que nunca. El Sur Global se ha consolidado como un actor clave en la contestación a Occidente bajo lógicas antiimperialistas o de doble rasero. La imagen más simbólica de este momento de expansión geopolítica la veremos en octubre de 2024, cuando los BRICS se reúnan en Rusia para formalizar su ampliación. Brasil, Rusia, India, China y Sudáfrica suman a su club a Arabia Saudí, Egipto, Emiratos Árabes Unidos, Etiopía e Irán. Juntos suponen el 46% de la población mundial, un 29% del PIB global, e incluyen a dos de los tres mayores productores de petróleo del mundo. De esta forma, los BRICS ganarán una voz todavía más potente, aunque inevitablemente también es posible que integren más contradicciones internas y agendas propias. No obstante, la elección de Javier Milei como presidente de Argentina, que ha confirmado su decisión de no unirse a los BRICS, también alimenta la idea de este choque de agendas e intereses en el Sur Global: Arabia Saudí e Irán son competidores por la influencia estratégica en el Golfo Pérsico, e India y China tienen sus propias disputas fronterizas en el Himalaya. El Sur Global seguirá ganando influencia, pero también heterogeneidad. Más allá de una retórica poscolonial compartida, su acción es muy diversa. El Sur Global es multirregional y multidimensional y está compuesto por regímenes políticos diferentes. Pero también es el espacio geográfico donde se consolidan los flujos comerciales globales como consecuencia de la reglobalización. El último informe anual de la OMC confirma que, a pesar de que las economías avanzadas siguen siendo actores clave del comercio mundial, ya no son dominantes. Sin embargo, si en 2023 hablábamos de la aceleración geopolítica de los «otros» con India como símbolo de este potencial liderazgo del Sur Global, en 2024 será América Latina quien tratará de adoptar un papel protagonista. Brasil será el país anfitrión del G-20, mientras que Perú acogerá la Cumbre de Cooperación Económica en Asia Pacífico (APEC).Y en esta superación de dicotomías, también el Norte Global puede sufrir una fractura interna profunda si se confirma el retorno de Donald Trump a la Casa Blanca. La distancia transatlántica se ha impuesto como el nuevo marco de unas relaciones con más carga transaccional que de alianza tradicional. El desencuentro entre Washington y Bruselas se agravará en 2024 cuando Estados Unidos pida a la UE aumentar su contribución al Gobierno de Volodímir Zelensky y la propia lógica de divisiones internas entre socios comunitarios lo impida. Especialmente tenso será el segundo semestre de 2024, cuando Hungría –el país más reticente de la UE sobre la ayuda militar y la futura adhesión de Ucrania– asuma la presidencia rotatoria de la Unión. Será también paradójico que esta brecha en el Norte Global se ensanche por la guerra de Ucrania. Precisamente, en 2023, la invasión rusa fue el mortero que cimentó la unidad transatlántica y confrontó a la UE y a Estados Unidos con los límites de su capacidad de influencia ante un Sur Global que cuestionaba el doble rasero de Occidente. En 2024, en cambio, la guerra en Ucrania puede aumentar la distancia entre Washington y Bruselas.A pesar de esta lógica de confrontación, la miopía geopolítica del binarismo está cada vez más fuera de lugar. Y, sin embargo, cuesta de superar. El hecho de que Estados Unidos y la UE sigan planteándose su relación con América Latina solo como espacio de explotación de recursos y de disputa geopolítica con China es parte de esa miopía. De momento, el fracaso reiterado de las negociaciones para un acuerdo UE-Mercosur alejan una vez más el sueño suramericano de poder reforzar su presencia comercial en el mercado único europeo. Las negociaciones se retomarán en el primer semestre de 2024, después de que Paraguay tome el relevo de Brasil en la presidencia de Mercosur.7. Retroceso en los compromisos internacionales2023 deja la cooperación internacional en la cuerda floja. Con un lenguaje cada vez más contundente, António Guterres declaraba que el mundo está «lamentablemente fuera de rumbo» en la consecución de los Objetivos de Desarrollo Sostenible (ODS), que en 2023 llegaron al ecuador de su implementación. 2024 tiene que demostrar si la comunidad internacional todavía es capaz y quiere consensuar respuestas coordinadas a problemas globales compartidos, a través de órganos de gobernanza colectiva. No será fácil. Estamos ante una aceleración de la crisis ecológica, ante un récord de migraciones y desplazamientos forzosos, así como ante una clara involución de la agenda para la igualdad de género.Por primera vez, la Agencia Internacional de la Energía (AIE) proyecta que la demanda mundial de petróleo, carbón y gas natural alcanzará su punto máximo en esta década basándose únicamente en la configuración de políticas actuales, según World Energy Outlook 2023. A corto plazo, los países productores de combustibles fósiles ignoran las alertas climáticas y planean aumentar la extracción de carbón, petróleo y gas. La elección de un Estado petrolero, los Emiratos Árabes Unidos, como anfitrión de una cumbre climática y el nombramiento de un ejecutivo de combustibles fósiles para presidirla, ya era, como mínimo, un mal augurio. Y, sin embargo, la COP28 de Dubái ha sido la primera que ha conseguido sacar un texto que reconoce explícitamente la necesidad de «dejar atrás» los combustibles fósiles: el petróleo, el carbón y el gas, como principales responsables de la crisis climática. Si bien el acuerdo final ha sido celebrado como histórico por hacer referencia a esta necesidad de iniciar una transición (transitioning away from) para garantizar unas emisiones cero netas en 2050, el grado de ambición demostrado no es suficiente para cumplir con los objetivos del Acuerdo de París. Asimismo, si bien la creación de un Fondo para Pérdidas y Daños para compensar a los países más afectados por el cambio climático también es un paso positivo, la recaudación inicial de 700 millones de dólares queda muy por debajo de lo necesario. Cada año, los países en desarrollo hacen frente a 400.000 millones de dólares de pérdidas vinculadas a la acción climática. En este contexto, no solo se corre el riesgo de empeorar los impactos climáticos, sino que también veremos emerger, todavía con más fuerza, tensiones sociales y políticas entre gobiernos y sociedades por la explotación de los recursos. En Europa hay una creciente insatisfacción con las políticas de transición climática de la Unión, y el previsible ascenso de las fuerzas euroescépticas y de derecha radical en las elecciones al Parlamento Europeo de junio de 2024 puede aumentar todavía más esta presión. La hiperactividad regulatoria en cuestiones climáticas e industriales está aumentando la politización de este tema, avivando el malestar social en ciertos estados miembros. Italia, Polonia, los Países Bajos y ciertos sectores de Alemania, en especial del partido de extrema derecha Alternativa para Alemania (AfD), están tratando de limitar las ambiciones de la UE en materia climática. La llegada del nuevo Gobierno sueco, apoyado por la derecha radical, ha frenado de golpe los compromisos climáticos que lideraba uno de los países de la UE que más ha contribuido a las políticas medioambientales comunitarias. Un retorno de Donald Trump a la Casa Blanca también haría tambalear de nuevo algunos de los limitados avances domésticos e internacionales en este ámbito.Según una encuesta realizada por Ipsos, mientras una gran parte de los hogares europeos continúan dando prioridad al medio ambiente frente al crecimiento económico, esta proporción está en declive: si en 2019 un 53% de los hogares preferían la protección del medio ambiente, en 2022 esta cifra se había reducido cinco puntos, pese al impacto evidente de los fenómenos climáticos. Sin embargo, esta tendencia de «no en mi patio trasero» no se limita a Europa. A finales de 2023, hemos visto la resistencia de los panameños contra la ampliación de contratos de minería. Algunos expertos hablan de «choque de ambientalismos» para referirse a la confrontación que surge entre aquellos que quieren proteger los recursos naturales de su país y el deterioro de los ecosistemas, y los intereses de gobiernos que buscan recursos para alimentar su transición energética. Lo mismo puede ocurrir en la UE. A principios de 2024, entrará en vigor la Ley de Materias Primas Críticas que quiere garantizar el suministro de níquel, litio, magnesio y otros materiales esenciales para la transición verde y las industrias estratégicas, vitales para los coches eléctricos y las energías renovables, los equipos militares y los sistemas aeroespaciales, así como para los ordenadores y los teléfonos móviles. Y, en este contexto, la UE prevé revivir la minería en el continente. Una decisión que puede movilizar protestas ecologistas en la Unión en los próximos meses.También en 2024 se espera que los estados miembros de Naciones Unidas lleguen a un acuerdo global para acabar con la contaminación por plásticos. Será un tratado internacional, jurídicamente vinculante, considerado como el pacto medioambiental multilateral más importante desde el Acuerdo de París, y que fijará un plan de actuación hasta 2040.Sin embargo, son las políticas de género y las políticas migratorias las que están más expuestas a esta ola radical que ha transformado las agendas gubernamentales, sobre todo, en la UE y en América Latina. Si bien es verdad que la igualdad de género durante 2023 se ha recuperado a niveles previos a la pandemia, el ritmo de progreso se ha desacelerado. A este paso, se necesitarán 131 años para alcanzar la plena paridad. Aunque la proporción de mujeres contratadas para puestos de liderazgo ha aumentado de manera constante en aproximadamente un 1% anual a nivel mundial durante los últimos ocho años, esta tendencia se revirtió en 2023, retrocediendo a los niveles de 2021. Las emergentes políticas exteriores feministas, que definían aquellos países con un claro compromiso de promover la igualdad de género en las relaciones internacionales, han sumado cuatro bajas importantes en los últimos meses: Suecia, Luxemburgo, los Países Bajos y Argentina. Los cambios de Gobierno, junto con la creciente politización y polarización de las cuestiones percibidas como «feministas», han demostrado el fácil abandono de estas iniciativas, dependientes de las orientaciones progresistas de los gobiernos en el poder. México, otro de los países que ha adoptado estas políticas, se enfrentará a unos comicios en junio que también marcarán la continuidad o el abandono de su compromiso con la igualdad de género en la acción exterior. Y, pese a no tener una política exterior feminista, el retorno de Trump a la Casa Blanca podría llevar al restablecimiento de políticas restrictivas sobre el aborto y de recortes de financiación contra las ONG internacionales que promueven los derechos sexuales y reproductivos.Además, el Instituto Internacional para la Democracia y la Asistencia Electoral (IDEA) denuncia el resurgimiento de tendencias antifeministas en países como Croacia e Italia, destacando discursos sexistas y homófobos por parte de líderes europeos como Viktor Orbán, Andrzej Duda o Giorgia Meloni, que justifican ataques a los derechos de las mujeres y de las personas LGBTQIA+ y socavan años de esfuerzos para lograr avances en la ruptura de los estereotipos de género. Si bien el Plan de Acción en materia de Género III de la UE tiene vigencia hasta 2025, un cambio de orientación política en Bruselas también diluiría los compromisos de uno de los actores más implicados en este ámbito. En una nota más positiva, será interesante seguir en 2024 los avances de Naciones Unidas respecto a la Convención contra los crímenes contra la humanidad, ya que movimientos feministas y de la sociedad civil de todo el mundo aprovecharán esta oportunidad para tratar de codificar el apartheid de género como crimen contra la humanidad –especialmente debido a la continua discriminación y opresión del régimen talibán hacia las mujeres afganas y a la situación de las mujeres iraníes.También las políticas migratorias europeas han formalizado un retroceso importante. El Pacto Europeo de Migración y Asilo, que está previsto que salga adelante antes de las elecciones europeas de 2024, supone una legitimación de las políticas antiinmigración de la UE. Dicho pacto permite retrasar el registro de los solicitantes de asilo, instaurar procedimientos de asilo fronterizos de segunda categoría y ampliar el tiempo de detención en frontera; es decir, rebaja estándares y legaliza lo que hasta ahora era directamente ilegal. Este acuerdo en ciernes refleja los niveles de polarización y politización que marcan el paso de la respuesta europea a las migraciones. Y, en plena precampaña electoral, la utilización política del debate migratorio será todavía más evidente en los próximos meses. Ello forma parte, además, de otro proceso más de fondo: las políticas de externalización de la migración de la UE, que han alimentado también la estigmatización de los inmigrantes y refugiados en la región de Oriente Medio y Norte de Africa (MENA por sus siglas en inglés). 8. Desbordamiento humanitarioLas guerras y la violencia impulsaron el desplazamiento forzado a escala mundial hasta una cifra récord estimada de 114 millones de personas a finales de septiembre de 2023, según ACNUR. Los principales generadores de estos desplazamientos forzados fueron la guerra en Ucrania y los conflictos en Sudán, la República Democrática del Congo y Myanmar; además de la sequía, las inundaciones y la inseguridad que azota Somalia; así como una prolongada crisis humanitaria en Afganistán.Solo en los primeros seis meses de 2023, se presentaron 1,6 millones de nuevas solicitudes individuales de asilo a nivel mundial, la cifra más alta jamás registrada. No se trata de una situación excepcional. La reactivación de conflictos olvidados ha aumentado los niveles de volatilidad y violencia. En octubre de 2023, más de 100.500 personas –más del 80% de los 120.000 habitantes estimados de Nagorno Karabaj– huyeron a Armenia tras la toma de control del enclave por parte de Azerbaiyán. También hubo miles de desplazados en el norte de Shan, por la escalada de combates entre las Fuerzas Armadas de Myanmar y varios grupos armados. A finales de octubre de 2023, casi dos millones de personas se encuentran desplazadas internamente en Myanmar, en condiciones precarias y necesitadas de asistencia vital. Y las imágenes de más de un millón de palestinos huyendo de sus hogares por los bombardeos israelíes, que se iniciaron tras el brutal ataque de Hamás del 7 de octubre, reflejan la crisis humanitaria que azota Gaza.Sin embargo, este incremento en el número de refugiados y desplazados no ha ido acompañado de un refuerzo de la ayuda internacional necesaria para cubrir sus necesidades. Más de un millón de refugiados rohingya en Bangladesh deberán hacer frente al menguante compromiso internacional. En 2023, Naciones Unidas redujo un tercio la asistencia alimentaria y la ayuda humanitaria a este colectivo. La falta de financiación internacional disminuyó considerablemente los niveles de asistencia en 2023, y el Programa Mundial de Alimentos (PMA) se vio obligado a recortar entre un 30% y un 50% el tamaño y el alcance de la asistencia alimentaria, monetaria y nutricional que ofrece. 2.300 millones de personas, casi un 30% de la población mundial, hoy están al límite de una situación de inseguridad alimentaria moderada o grave. El alza continuada del precio de los alimentos en 2024 y el impacto de las condiciones meteorológicas adversas en la producción agrícola pueden empeorar todavía más esta situación. La Oficina para la Coordinación de Asuntos Humanitarios (OCHA) de Naciones Unidas prevé que entre 105 y 110 millones de personas necesitarán asistencia alimentaria al menos hasta principios de 2024, con un aumento de las necesidades en las regiones de África Austral y América Latina y el Caribe, y una disminución neta en África Oriental.De momento, los expertos alertan sobre el riesgo de una nueva crisis del arroz en 2024, como consecuencia de la restricción en las exportaciones que impuso India para intentar contener los efectos del descenso de producción interna. La ola expansiva de esta prohibición ha provocado también el encarecimiento de los precios del arroz en Tailandia y Vietnam, segundo y tercer mayor exportador de arroz después de India, que han visto aumentar los precios un 14% y un 22%, respectivamente. A ello se suman los efectos del fenómeno climático de El Niño, asociado con el calor y la sequía en todo el Océano Pacífico, que puede dañar la producción de 2024. Por todo ello, los expertos advierten que, si India mantiene las restricciones actuales, el mundo va camino de repetir la crisis del arroz de 2008. El fenómeno de El Niño, que no se disipará hasta mediados de 2024, suele estar asociado, por una parte, a un incremento de las precipitaciones en algunas zonas meridionales de América del Sur, del sur de los Estados Unidos, el Cuerno de África y Asia central; pero, por la otra, también puede provocar graves sequías en Australia, Indonesia y partes del sureste asiático. El último episodio de este fenómeno, en 2016, significó el año más cálido jamás registrado, con unos récords globales de calor que todavía no se han superado.Los gobiernos donantes y las agencias humanitarias deben prepararse para un 2024 de grandes necesidades de asistencia en múltiples regiones. 2023 ya nos ha dejado varias muestras de ello: sequía extrema en el Amazonas y restricciones del tráfico marítimo en el canal de Panamá; incendios forestales en Bolivia y cortes de luz diarios en Ecuador debido a la baja producción de electricidad que proviene en más del 80% de centrales hidroeléctricas; las peores inundaciones registradas en el noroeste de Argentina, que provocaron además deslizamientos de tierra que afectaron a más de 6.000 personas; y un devastador huracán de categoría 5 en México que sorprendió a autoridades y científicos, los cuales no pudieron prever la intensidad del fenómeno. 9. Securitización versus derechosEl conflicto entre seguridad y derechos fundamentales ha sido una constante en 2023, y la incertidumbre electoral de los próximos meses fomentará, todavía más, la tentación de las políticas de control y mano dura. El debate público en toda América Latina, sin excepción, ha quedado copado por la seguridad, con efectos directos sobre otras crisis como la migratoria, que desde hace una década afecta a todo el continente, y que en 2024 se prevé todavía más intensa. El bukelismo gana adeptos. El nuevo presidente argentino, Javier Milei, ha declarado su admiración por las políticas de mano dura del presidente salvadoreño, Nayib Bukele. También la campaña electoral en Ecuador estuvo muy marcada por el debate de la seguridad. El continente lucha contra una nueva ola de criminalidad que se ha extendido a países tradicionalmente más estables, que ahora forman parte de rutas rentables del narcotráfico, como son los casos de Paraguay y Argentina. El tráfico de personas, sobre todo la explotación criminal de la crisis migratoria venezolana, también ha crecido en toda América Latina. En este contexto, Naciones Unidas y la Interpol han puesto en marcha una iniciativa conjunta contra la trata de seres humanos. Está por ver el impacto que las elecciones venezolanas puedan tener en esta crisis migratoria, que ya ha provocado la salida de más de siete millones de personas desde 2014.Asimismo, con el aumento de la impunidad, también ha crecido el riesgo de la tentación autoritaria por parte de los gobiernos de la región latinoamericana, con la militarización de la seguridad pública y el debilitamiento democrático en todo el continente. También en la UE. La sensación de vulnerabilidad se ha convertido, desde hace tiempo, en un revulsivo político para determinadas fuerzas en Europa. Desde el inicio de la guerra en Gaza, algunos países europeos han extremado la seguridad por miedo a atentados, hasta el punto de prohibir manifestaciones de apoyo a la población palestina, como fue el caso en Francia. En este sentido, la securitización de los movimientos sociales también emerge como una estrategia que seguirá ganando peso en 2024. Cada vez más, los gobiernos democráticos están extremando la presión sobre los movimientos de protesta: multas, prohibiciones de la libertad de expresión o persecución judicial están empequeñeciendo el espacio de la protesta civil. En este contexto, la UE ha llegado a un acuerdo en 2023 para legislar contra las demandas estratégicas que pretenden desincentivar la participación pública o silenciar a medios independientes (las llamadas SLAP, en sus siglas en inglés) que debería ratificarse antes del final de mandato.Finalmente, el debate de la seguridad y su efecto sobre los derechos individuales marcará también los meses previos a los Juegos Olímpicos de 2024 en París. Grupos de derechos humanos han denunciado los planes del Gobierno francés para la utilización de cámaras de reconocimiento con IA para detectar en tiempo real actividades sospechosas en las calles de la capital durante los juegos. La tecnología es un elemento crucial de la transformación que vive el binomio seguridad y conflicto. Los drones se han convertido en un arma clave para la resistencia en Ucrania, como también lo fue en el arsenal de Hamás utilizado en su ataque del 7 de octubre contra Israel. Precisamente unos Estados Unidos en pleno recorte presupuestario han asignado, en cambio, una inyección de dinero extra, en 2024, al Pentágono para el desarrollo de la llamada «guerra electrónica». 10. Desacoplamiento entre intereses y valoresHay un hilo conductor en muchos de los puntos anteriores que hilvana un mundo cada vez más diverso y (des)ordenado a través de intereses y alianzas cambiantes. En su informe de prospectiva estratégica de 2023, la Comisión Europea reconoce que la «batalla de narrativas» que durante tanto tiempo utilizó como argumento de la confrontación geopolítica entre democracia y autoritarismo está quedando obsoleta. Ello va más allá de la constatación de que Occidente ha perdido la batalla por el relato de la guerra de Ucrania y de que su doble rasero ante los conflictos del mundo empequeñece la capacidad de influencia de la UE. El caso de Sudán es el ejemplo más claro de cómo Occidente puede comprometerse con guerras que considera existenciales para la supervivencia de sus propios valores, como la de Ucrania, mientras ignora el genocidio que se está cometiendo, con asesinatos casa por casa, en los campos de refugiados de Darfur.El mundo se ha transformado en una «batalla de ofertas» que configura tanto la opinión pública como la acción de los gobiernos. Crece la diversidad de opciones y de alianzas. Las narrativas hasta hace poco hegemónicas o están contestadas o ya no sirven para explicar la realidad. En esta «multipolaridad desequilibrada» (unbalanced multipolarity), con potencias medianas marcando agendas regionales, los grandes actores tradicionales están obligados a buscar su propio espacio. La competición global por los recursos que deben alimentar las transiciones verde y digital acentúa, todavía más, esta geometría variable de acuerdos y alianzas. Y los resultados del ciclo electoral de 2024 pueden acabar reforzando está transformación. La tentación aislacionista de Estados Unidos es una realidad. Vladímir Putin revalidará en las urnas su capacidad de resistencia, después de haber sorteado los efectos de las sanciones internacionales y de haber construido un andamio económico para resistir una guerra larga en Ucrania. En India, la popularidad de Narendra Modi permanece intacta y alimenta el dominio de su partido. El interrogante electoral dibuja un 2024 que empieza totalmente abierto. La crisis del orden liberal, agudizada por la reacción internacional a los últimos conflictos, y la erosión del multilateralismo –con el desafío explícito a Naciones Unidas– alimentan todavía más esta sensación de dispersión del poder global hacia una variedad de potencias medianas dinámicas, capaces de ayudar a moldear el entorno internacional en las próximas décadas.Arranca un año clave para evaluar la capacidad de resistencia de unos sistemas democráticos sometidos, desde hace tiempo, a una profunda erosión. Estaremos pendientes del resultado de las urnas, así como de los límites de la impunidad con que actúan, cada vez más desacomplejadamente, las armas.Calendario CIDOB 2024: 75 fechas para marcar en la agenda1 de enero – Renovación Consejo de Seguridad de Naciones Unidas. Argelia, Guyana, la República de Corea, Sierra Leona y Eslovenia empezarán a formar parte del Consejo de Seguridad de la ONU como miembros no permanentes en sustitución de Albania, Brasil, Gabón, Ghana y los Emiratos Árabes Unidos que finalizan membresía. 1 de enero – Disolución de la República de Artsaj. La autoproclamada república de Nagorno Karabaj dejará de existir a comienzos de año, después de más de tres décadas de control del territorio. En septiembre de 2023, Azerbaiyán emprendió una ofensiva militar con el objetivo de reintegrar este enclave de población mayoritariamente armenia. Esta ofensiva llevó a la autoproclamada república a anunciar su disolución. 1 de enero – Ampliación de los BRICS. Arabia Saudita, Egipto, Etiopía, Emiratos Árabes Unidos e Irán se unirán como miembros de pleno derecho en los BRICS (Brasil, Rusia, India, China y Sudáfrica). Finalmente, el nuevo presidente de Argentina, Javier Milei, ha descartado el ingreso de su país. 1 de enero – Presidencia belga del Consejo de la UE. Bélgica asumirá la presidencia rotatoria de la UE en substitución de España y hasta el 30 de junio. El semestre belga marcará el fin de este ciclo institucional en la Unión Europea. 7 de enero – Elecciones parlamentarias en Bangladesh. Estos comicios tendrán lugar en un contexto de una profunda división política del país. Esta división ha llevado a manifestaciones multitudinarias por parte de la oposición a finales de 2023 para reclamar un gobierno interino que supervise las elecciones. La actual primera ministra, Sheikh Hasina Wajed, aspira a renovar su mandato tras 15 años en el poder, mientras su principal contendiente, la líder del Partido Nacional de Bangladesh, Khaleda Zia, se encuentra actualmente en arresto domiciliario por cargos de corrupción. 13 de enero – Elecciones generales en Taiwán. Por primera vez desde la democratización de Taiwán, tres candidatos compiten por la presidencia tras el fracaso de la oposición para establecer un frente común: el actual vicepresidente, Lai Ching-te del gobernante Partido Democrático Progresista; Hou You-yi del Kuomintang; y Ko Wen-je, exalcalde de Taipéi y líder del Partido Popular Taiwanés. El resultado de estas elecciones marcará el curso de la política de Taiwán respecto a China, con la mirada puesta en Estados Unidos, en un momento de crecientes tensiones entre Taipéi y Beijing. 14 de enero – Toma de posesión de Bernardo Arévalo como presidente de Guatemala. La victoria del candidato del Movimiento Semilla en las elecciones de 2023 supuso una sorpresa general. Desde la celebración de los comicios, la tensión política y social se ha intensificado en el país debido a los esfuerzos de la fiscalía guatemalteca por impugnar los resultados electorales y evitar que Arévalo asuma el cargo. 15 – 19 de enero – Foro de Davos. Cita anual que reúne a los principales líderes políticos, altos ejecutivos de las compañías más importantes del mundo, líderes de organizaciones internacionales y ONGs, así como personalidades culturales y sociales destacadas. Esta edición se enfocará principalmente en examinar las oportunidades proporcionadas por el desarrollo de las tecnologías emergentes y sus repercusiones en la toma de decisiones y la cooperación internacional. 15 – 20 de enero – 19ª Cumbre del Movimiento de los Países No Alineados. Uganda será la sede de la próxima Cumbre formada por los 120 países pertenecientes a esta agrupación de estados. El lema de esta edición es «Profundizar la cooperación para una riqueza global compartida» y está previsto que se aborden múltiples retos globales actuales con el objetivo de fomentar la cooperación entre los estados miembros. 21 – 23 de enero – Tercera Cumbre del Sur del G-77 + China. Uganda será la anfitriona de este foro que, bajo el lema «No dejar a nadie atrás» busca promover la cooperación Sur-Sur. Los 134 países miembros de Asia, África, América Latina y el Caribe se focalizarán en ámbitos como el comercio, la inversión, el desarrollo sostenible, el cambio climático y la eliminación de la pobreza. 4 de febrero – Elecciones presidenciales en El Salvador. Nayib Bukele, quien encabeza el partido Nuevas Ideas y ocupa actualmente la presidencia de El Salvador, se perfila como el claro favorito para su reelección. Desde marzo de 2022, el país se encuentra en estado de excepción, como respuesta a los desafíos de seguridad que afectaban a la nación. 8 de febrero – Elecciones generales en Pakistán. Desde la destitución de Imran Khan como primer ministro en abril de 2022, Pakistán se encuentra en una situación de inestabilidad política, una profunda crisis económica y un aumento de la violencia por grupos armados. Los comicios serán supervisados por un gobierno interino creado tras la disolución del Parlamento pakistaní en agosto de 2023. 14 de febrero – Elecciones presidenciales y legislativas en Indonesia. Tres aspirantes compiten por suceder al actual presidente, Joko Widodo, que, después de dos mandatos, no puede presentarse a la reelección. El próximo líder se enfrentará al desafío de impulsar el crecimiento en una economía dependiente del consumo interno, impulsar el desarrollo de la industria tecnológica y gestionar las presiones de China y Estados Unidos para proteger sus intereses nacionales. 16 – 18 de febrero – 60ª Conferencia de Seguridad de Múnich. Con carácter anual, es el mayor foro independiente sobre políticas de seguridad internacional que reúne a figuras de más de setenta países con cargos de alto nivel. El fortalecimiento de un orden internacional basado en reglas, el impacto de las guerras en Ucrania y Gaza, la resistencia frente a tendencias revisionistas o las implicaciones del cambio climático para la seguridad serán algunos de los temas principales en la agenda de este año. 17 – 18 de febrero – Cumbre de la Unión Africana. Etiopía, quien ostenta la presidencia de la Unión Africana, será la organizadora de la cumbre. Este año se examinarán algunos de los numerosos frentes abiertos en el continente. Estos ejemplos incluyen: la situación de inestabilidad en el Sahel, la creciente inseguridad alimentaria mundial, los desastres naturales en el continente o el retroceso democrático. Además, las tensiones entre Marruecos y Argelia serán centrales ya que ambos países aspiran a la presidencia. 25 de febrero – Elecciones presidenciales en Senegal. Tras múltiples olas de protestas, el actual presidente senegalés, Macky Sall, anunció su decisión de no presentarse a un tercer mandato. Ha sido la primera vez en la historia democrática del país que un presidente incumbente no se presenta a la reelección. La necesidad de garantizar puestos de trabajo para la población joven del país será una de las cuestiones centrales en la campaña electoral. 26 – 29 de febrero – Mobile World Congress. Barcelona acoge el mayor evento de telefonía móvil del mundo donde reúne a las principales empresas tecnológicas y de comunicación internacionales. Esta edición estará dedicada a la tecnología 5G, la conectividad, la promoción de una inteligencia artificial humanista, o la transformación digital, entre otros temas. 1 de marzo – Elecciones parlamentarias en Irán. Con la mirada puesta en la sucesión del ayatolá Ali Jamenei por cuestiones de edad, los iraníes elegirán a los representantes de la Asamblea Consultiva Islámica y la Asamblea de Expertos; esta última encargada de elegir al nuevo líder supremo en los próximos años. No obstante, estos comicios se encontrarán marcados por la escalada de tensiones en Oriente Medio, y la profunda crisis económica y social que ha aumentado la desafección popular con el régimen. 8 de marzo – Día internacional de la mujer. Se ha convertido en una fecha clave en la agenda política y social de muchos países, como lo demuestran las movilizaciones masivas que han tomado impulso en los últimos años especialmente en América Latina, Estados Unidos y Europa. El objetivo común es la lucha por los derechos de la mujer y la igualdad de género en todo el mundo. 10 de marzo – Elecciones parlamentarias en Portugal. El país afronta elecciones anticipadas después de la crisis institucional abierta por la dimisión del primer ministro socialista António Costa. El exjefe de gobierno portugués fue objeto de una investigación judicial por presuntos delitos de corrupción que afectaron directamente a varios miembros de su gabinete. 17 de marzo – Elecciones presidenciales en Rusia. Aunque se presume que Vladímir Putin logrará la reelección manteniéndose en el poder hasta 2030, Rusia acude a las urnas en un contexto marcado por múltiples desafíos de seguridad interna. La retirada rusa de la región ucraniana de Járkov, el impacto de la guerra en Ucrania, el fallido levantamiento por parte de Wagner el pasado junio y los disturbios antisemitas en el Cáucaso Norte en octubre de 2023, podrían forzar a Putin a realizar profundas remodelaciones de la cúpula política y militar aprovechando el calendario electoral. 18 de marzo – Décimo aniversario de la anexión rusa de Crimea. La anexión de Crimea por parte de Rusia, país que había invadido la región semanas antes, fue formalizada mediante un referéndum sobre el estatus político de Crimea que sucedió sin reconocimiento internacional. La anexión se produjo tras la caída del entonces presidente ucraniano, Víktor Yanukóvich, de orientación prorrusa, tras una serie de protestas que exigían una mayor integración europea. 21 – 22 de marzo – Cumbre sobre Energía Nuclear. La Agencia Internacional de la Energía Atómica junto al Gobierno belga reunirá en Bruselas a más de 30 jefes de Estado y de gobierno de todo el mundo, así como a representantes de la industria energética y de la sociedad civil. La cumbre busca potenciar la energía nuclear frente a los desafíos que suponen la reducción del uso de combustibles fósiles, la mejora de la seguridad energética y el desarrollo económico sostenible. 31 de marzo – Elecciones presidenciales en Ucrania. Según la Constitución ucraniana, las elecciones presidenciales deben celebrarse en el último domingo de marzo durante el quinto año del mandato presidencial. Sin embargo, no es seguro que se acaben convocando ya que la ley marcial, impuesta desde el inicio de la invasión rusa del país en 2022, no permite su celebración. La falta de fondos y la oposición popular de los ucranianos a la celebración de los comicios en tiempo de guerra son factores a destacar. 31 de marzo – Elecciones locales en Turquía. El Partido Republicano del Pueblo (CHP), principal partido de la oposición, aspira a conservar el control de los municipios clave que obtuvo en 2019. Entre ellos, la capital, Ankara, Estambul, y otras ciudades significativas. La reelección de Recep Tayyip Erdoğan y la retención de la mayoría parlamentaria en las elecciones de 2023 han motivado a su formación, el Partido de la Justicia y el Desarrollo (AKP), a tratar de recuperar terreno a nivel municipal. 7 de abril – 30 aniversario del inicio del genocidio en Rwanda. Tras la muerte de los presidentes de Burundi y Rwanda al estrellarse el avión en el que viajaban, se inició una campaña de exterminio sistemático organizada por el gobierno hutu contra la población tutsi que duraría 100 días. El 15 de julio de 1994, el Frente Patriótico Rwandés estableció un gobierno interino de unidad nacional en Kigali que pondrían fin al genocidio. Se estima que entre 500.000 y 1.000.000 de personas fueron asesinadas. Abril – Mayo – Elecciones generales en la India. Pese a las crecientes tendencias iliberales, la «mayor democracia del mundo» acude a las urnas entre abril y mayo. El actual primer ministro indio, Narendra Modi, aspira a un tercer mandato frente a una oposición más unida que nunca bajo la Alianza Inclusiva de Desarrollo Nacional de la India (INDIA por sus siglas en inglés). 2 de mayo – Elecciones locales en Reino Unido. Las elecciones para renovar los consejos locales y alcaldías en Inglaterra, incluyendo Londres y el condado de Gran Manchester, serán un indicador del nivel de apoyo tanto para el Partido Laborista como para los Conservadores, anticipando las elecciones generales previstas para enero de 2025. 5 de mayo – Elecciones generales en Panamá. La sociedad civil panameña elegirá nuevos representantes para la presidencia, Asamblea Nacional, alcaldía y otros representantes locales. Este proceso electoral tiene lugar en un contexto de marcada polarización y creciente tensión social, acentuadas por temas relacionados con la seguridad interna, disputas políticas y la gestión de los recursos naturales. 19 de mayo – Elecciones presidenciales y legislativas en la República Dominicana. El actual presidente, Luis Abinader, líder del Partido Revolucionario Moderno, busca la reelección en unas elecciones en las que la mayoría de los partidos de la oposición se unirán bajo la Alianza Opositora Rescate, RD. Las tensiones territoriales, migratorias y económicas con la vecina Haití serán temas centrales durante la campaña electoral. Junio – Elecciones presidenciales en Mauritania. El actual presidente, Mohammed Ould Ghazouani, buscará la reelección después de cuatro años de un gobierno continuista que comenzó tras la salida del expresidente Mohammed Ould Abdelaziz en 2019, quien hoy enfrenta acusaciones de múltiples delitos de corrupción. El ganador de las elecciones deberá afrontar crecientes tensiones sociales, así como conflictos geopolíticos en toda la región. 2 de junio – Elecciones generales y federales en México. Claudia Sheinbaum, precandidata a la presidencia de México por el Movimiento de Regeneración Nacional (Morena), parte como clara favorita frente a la principal candidatura opositora del Frente Amplio por México, integrado por los partidos Revolucionario Institucional (PRI), Acción Nacional (PAN) y de la Revolución Democrática (PRD). En estas elecciones no solo se elige a la presidencia y el gobierno, sino también a senadurías y diputaciones federales, así como miles cargos estatales y/o municipales en 30 de las 32 entidades federativas. 6 – 9 de junio – Elecciones al Parlamento Europeo. Las elecciones se llevarán a cabo de manera simultánea en los 27 países que conforman la Unión Europea. Una de las mayores incógnitas será conocer el avance de los partidos populistas y de extrema derecha, el peso de las familias tradicionales socialdemócrata y conservadora, y las posibles alianzas que puedan surgir para la elección posterior de los principales cargos europeos. 9 de junio – Elecciones federales en Bélgica. Coincidiendo con la presidencia belga de la Unión Europea, el país celebrará elecciones federales, europeas y regionales el mismo día. Una de las incógnitas más significativas será el resultado del partido de ultraderecha Vlaams Belang, que aspira a aumentar considerablemente su apoyo hasta poner a prueba la resistencia del cordón sanitario que los ha mantenido hasta ahora apartados del poder. 13 – 15 de junio – 50ª Cumbre del G-7 en Italia. Savelletri, un pequeño pueblo en la región italiana de Apulia será el escenario de una nueva edición del G-7. En esta reunión, se abordarán los principales desafíos geopolíticos a nivel mundial y su impacto en la economía internacional, junto con otros temas fundamentales para la agenda italiana, como la inmigración y las relaciones con África. 20 de junio – Día Mundial del Refugiado. El número de personas desplazadas por la fuerza en 2023 ha alcanzado cifras récord. Los impactos de la guerra en Ucrania, los numerosos conflictos en Oriente Medio y en el continente africano, así como las catástrofes naturales vinculadas al cambio climático, han llevado a un mayor número de desplazados internos y refugiados. Durante esta semana de junio, se dará a conocer el informe anual de ACNUR de tendencias de desplazamientos forzados en todo el mundo. Primer semestre – Despliegue de la Misión Internacional en Haití. Kenia liderará el despliegue de un contingente de seguridad en el cual participarán diferentes países. El objetivo es hacer frente a la violencia de las pandillas haitianas que han provocado una importante crisis de seguridad y de gobernabilidad. El Consejo de Seguridad de las Naciones Unidas, previa solicitud del secretario general y del primer ministro haitiano, autorizó una misión multinacional de seguridad con un año de duración, en octubre de 2023. Primer semestre – Cumbre del Diálogo de Seguridad Cuadrilateral (QUAD). India acogerá una nueva edición de este foro estratégico del Indo-Pacífico del que forman parte Australia, India, Japón y Estados Unidos para abordar cuestiones comunes en materia de comercio, tecnologías críticas, derechos humanos o cambio climático.Julio – 24ª Cumbre de la Organización de Cooperación de Shanghai. Kazajistán asume la presidencia anual del principal foro regional de Asia Central en materia de seguridad, economía y política, compuesto por China, India, Irán, Kazajistán, Kirguistán, Pakistán, Rusia, Tayikistán y Uzbekistán. Los ejes de la presidencia kazaja estarán centrados en cuestiones de seguridad y unidad regional, así como en el desarrollo económico y el comercio regional. Además, se espera que Bielorrusia ingrese en la organización este año. 1 de julio – Hungría asume la presidencia rotatoria del Consejo de la UE. Durante el segundo semestre del año, Hungría asumirá la presidencia rotatoria del Consejo de la Unión Europea, en plenas tensiones con la Comisión Europea y el Parlamento Europeo por sus incumplimientos de la legislación comunitaria. 8 – 18 de julio – Foro Político de Alto Nivel sobre Desarrollo Sostenible. Líderes y representantes mundiales se reunirán en Nueva York para realizar el seguimiento y monitoreo de los Objetivos de Desarrollo Sostenible (ODS), además de presentar Informes Nacionales Voluntarios de los ODS. El lema de esta edición será «Reforzar la Agenda 2030 y erradicar la pobreza en tiempos de múltiples crisis: la adopción eficaz de soluciones sostenibles, resilientes e innovadoras». 09 – 11 de julio – Cumbre de la OTAN. Washington será la sede de la cumbre de la Alianza Atlántica donde se prevé la presentación de una estrategia de seguridad para el flanco sur en respuesta al mandato surgido de la cumbre de Vilna de 2023. Además, en 2024 se cumple el 75 aniversario de la fundación de la OTAN. 26 de julio – 11 de agosto – Juegos Olímpicos de Verano en París. Francia acoge la XXXIII edición del principal acontecimiento deportivo mundial que se realiza cada cuatro años; una buena oportunidad para el país anfitrión de dinamizar una economía estancada en los últimos años. Agosto – Elecciones presidenciales y parlamentarias en Ruanda. El actual presidente de Ruanda, Paul Kagame, en el cargo desde 2000, opta a la reelección tras sucesivas elecciones en las que ha obtenido más del 90% de los votos. Septiembre – Elecciones parlamentarias en Austria. La mayor incógnita radica en si la actual coalición gobernante de los conservadores (ÖVP) y los verdes (Die Grünen) podrá revalidar su gobierno o si los resultados de la extrema derecha del Partido de la Libertad de Austria (FPÖ), y de los socialdemócratas del SPÖ podrían generar otras mayorías. 22 – 23 de septiembre – Cumbre del Futuro de Naciones Unidas. Basándose en el informe «Nuestra Agenda Común» presentado por el secretario general, António Guterres, en 2021 sobre multilateralismo y cooperación internacional, este evento de alto nivel tiene como objetivo acelerar el cumplimiento de compromisos internacionales existentes, y abordar desafíos y oportunidades emergentes. La culminación de este esfuerzo será la creación de un Pacto para el Futuro, que será negociado y respaldado por los países participantes. 24 de septiembre – 79ª Sesión de Debate General de la Asamblea General de Naciones Unidas. Una cita anual que reúne a todos los líderes mundiales para evaluar el actual estado de sus políticas nacionales y su visión del mundo. 26 –27 de septiembre – 10º aniversario del caso Ayotzinapa. México conmemora el décimo aniversario del caso Ayotzinapa (o caso Iguala), uno de los mayores escándalos de derechos humanos en la historia reciente del país. Aún sin resolver, este caso supuso la desaparición forzosa de 43 estudiantes de la Escuela Normal Rural de Ayotzinapa, estado de Guerrero. Octubre – XVI Cumbre de los BRICS. Kazán será la sede de una nueva edición de los BRICS en Rusia, ahora ampliados a 11 países, lo que representa un impulso en los esfuerzos de Moscú por demostrar que el país no está aislado a pesar de la invasión a gran escala de Ucrania. 1 de octubre – 75º aniversario de la fundación de la República Popular de China. Se cumplen 75 años de la fundación de la República Popular China por Mao Zedong, que puso fin a la guerra civil entre el Partido Comunista Chino y el Kuomintang, que estalló inmediatamente tras la rendición de Japón y la disolución del Segundo Frente Unido entre ambas fuerzas políticas durante la segunda guerra sino-japonesa. 6 de octubre – Elecciones municipales en Brasil. Estas elecciones serán un buen termómetro para evaluar el grado de apoyo al Partido de los Trabajadores y al resto de partidos que respaldan al presidente Lula, así como el avance o retroceso de candidatos vinculados al bolsonarismo. En las ciudades donde se requiera una segunda vuelta, esta se llevará a cabo el 27 de octubre. 9 de octubre – Elecciones generales y regionales en Mozambique. El presidente, Filipe Nyusi, concluye su segundo y último mandato presidencial y, según la Constitución, no puede presentarse nuevamente. Su partido, el Frente de Liberación de Mozambique (FRELIMO), en el poder desde hace décadas, deberá encontrar otro candidato. El próximo gobierno tendrá que hacer frente a diversos desafíos, incluyendo tensiones políticas, un aumento del terrorismo yihadista, y una pronunciada exclusión social. 24 de octubre – Día Internacional contra el Cambio Climático. Tiene como objetivo movilizar y sensibilizar a las sociedades y gobiernos de todo el mundo acerca de los efectos del cambio climático. Se trata de un buen momento para analizar las diferentes agendas de lucha contra la emergencia climática y los avances que se están dando desde los principales países contaminantes. 27 de octubre – Elecciones generales en Uruguay. El Frente Amplio (FA), un partido de centroizquierda, con fuertes vínculos con los sindicatos y otras organizaciones sociales, competirá por la victoria frente a la Coalición Multicolor de centroderecha, actualmente en el gobierno, y que ha enfrentado diversos casos de corrupción en los últimos meses. Noviembre – Cumbre de la APEC. Perú acogerá una nueva edición del foro de Cooperación Económica de Asia-Pacífico, que reúne a 21 países y que se celebrará bajo el lema «Personas, Negocios, Prosperidad». Noviembre – Cumbre sobre el Cambio Climático, COP29. Azerbaiyán acogerá esta nueva edición de la mayor cumbre internacional dedicada al cambio climático. Por segundo año consecutivo, se celebrará en un país cuya economía depende de la producción de combustibles fósiles. Noviembre – XXIX Cumbre Iberoamericana. Ecuador acoge la Cumbre Iberoamericana de jefes de Estado y de Gobierno bajo el lema «Innovación, Inclusión y Sostenibilidad». De forma paralela las principales ciudades de América Latina, España y Portugal celebrarán un «Encuentro de Ciudades Iberoamericanas» cuyas conclusiones serán presentadas durante la Cumbre. 4 – 8 de noviembre – XII Foro Urbano Mundial. El Cairo acogerá la reunión más importante en materia de urbanismo y asentamientos humanos organizada por ONU-Hábitat. 5 de noviembre – Elecciones presidenciales en Estados Unidos. El actual presidente Joe Biden aspira a la reelección y, a falta de confirmarse la candidatura del expresidente Donald Trump, la campaña electoral se prevé muy polarizada. El calendario electoral condicionará las decisiones de Washington en política exterior. 5 de noviembre – Elecciones generales en Georgia. La coalición gobernante Sueño Georgiano aspira a revalidar mandato. La guerra en Ucrania ha vuelto a dividir al país entre aquellos que buscan una integración más profunda con Occidente y aspiran a un futuro ingreso en la Unión Europea, y los que abogan por normalizar las relaciones con Rusia. 11 de noviembre – 20 aniversario muerte de Yasir Arafat. El histórico líder palestino y presidente de la Autoridad Nacional Palestina falleció hace 20 años en París. Su papel fue fundamental en el proceso de paz en Oriente Próximo, lo que, junto a los dirigentes israelíes Isaac Rabin y Shimon Peres, les valió el premio Nobel de la Paz en 1994. 18 – 19 de noviembre – Cumbre del G-20 en Brasil. Bajo el lema «Construir un mundo justo y un planeta sostenible», los ejes de discusión y de debate de esta edición incluirán las políticas de transición energética y desarrollo, la reforma de las instituciones de gobernanza global, así como la lucha contra la desigualdad, el hambre y la pobreza. Diciembre – Elecciones presidenciales en Argelia. El presidente, Abdelmadjid Tebboune, previsiblemente optará a la reelección. El país afronta varios desafíos de seguridad debido a la inestabilidad en el Sahel y las crecientes tensiones con Marruecos respecto al Sáhara Occidental. Además, desempeña un papel crucial como proveedor de gas para Europa, en medio de la crisis energética generada por la guerra en Ucrania. Diciembre – Elecciones generales en Sudán del Sur. Los acuerdos de paz de 2018, que pusieron fin al conflicto armado interno que duró cinco años, establecieron la formación de un Gobierno de Unidad Nacional liderado por el actual presidente, Salva Kiir. y su rival, el vicepresidente Riek Machar. Kiir ha propuesto la celebración de elecciones presidenciales libres para finales de 2024. 7 de diciembre – Elecciones presidenciales en Ghana. Se espera que las elecciones sean una carrera de dos entre Mahamudu Bawumia, actual vicepresidente del gobernante Nuevo Partido Patriótico (NPP), y el expresidente John Dramani Mahama, candidato del principal partido opositor, Congreso Nacional Demócrata (NDC). El país se enfrenta a su peor crisis económica en las últimas décadas, y a importantes desafíos de seguridad por el contexto geopolítico en el Sahel. Segundo Semestre – Elecciones presidenciales en Venezuela. El chavismo y la oposición, agrupada bajo el paraguas de la Plataforma Unitaria, acordaron en Barbados la celebración de elecciones presidenciales, a las que se podrá invitar a misiones técnicas electorales de organismos regionales e internacionales. Esta decisión se tomó de forma paralela al anuncio de Estados Unidos del levantamiento de sanciones al gas y al petróleo venezolanos en octubre de 2023. Pendiente – 53º Foro de las Islas del Pacífico. Tonga acogerá una nueva edición del principal foro de discusión panregional de Oceanía, que agrupa los intereses de 18 estados y territorios en materia de cambio climático, uso sostenible de los recursos marítimos, seguridad y cooperación regional. Un espacio geográfico de creciente interés por parte de China y Estados Unidos, que han iniciado una carrera diplomática para atraer a sus esferas de influencia a algunos de estos países y territorios. Pendiente – 44ª Cumbre de la ASEAN. Laos acogerá una nueva edición del principal foro regional del sudeste asiático que agrupa a 10 países, bajo el lema «Mejorar la conectividad y la resiliencia». Pendiente – Cumbre sobre la Seguridad de la Inteligencia Artificial. Francia acogerá la segunda edición de esta cumbre internacional que tiene como objetivo poner en marcha trabajos e iniciativas para abordar los riesgos tecnológicos que plantea la Inteligencia Artificial. La primera edición, celebrada en Londres en 2023, resultó en la Declaración Bletchley, que abogó por una mayor cooperación internacional para abordar los desafíos y riesgos asociados con la inteligencia artificial. Pendiente – XXXIII Cumbre de la Liga Árabe. Bahréin acogerá una nueva edición de la principal organización política que agrupa países de Oriente Medio y del Norte de África. El conflicto palestino-israelí, las cuestiones de seguridad alimentaria y energética, y los impactos regionales de la guerra en Ucrania, serán algunos de los temas principales de discusión y debate. Pendiente – Elecciones presidenciales y parlamentarias en Sri Lanka. La tensión social en el país, inmerso en una profunda crisis económica que ha llevado a un rescate por parte del Fondo Monetario Internacional, ha aumentado en los últimos meses y se espera que se intensifique durante todo el proceso electoral. Pendiente – Elecciones generales en Chad. El presidente interino de Chad, Mahamat Idriss Déby, que asumió el poder en abril de 2021 tras la muerte de su padre, Idriss Déby, mediante la instauración de una junta militar, prometió la celebración de elecciones libres a finales de 2024. El país se encuentra en una profunda crisis alimentaria y de seguridad. Pendiente – III Cumbre para la Democracia. Corea del Sur será la anfitriona de esta cumbre, impulsada por Estados Unidos, que desde 2021 reúne a líderes de gobiernos, la sociedad civil y el sector privado. Tiene como objetivo abordar los desafíos y oportunidades que enfrentan las democracias en el siglo XXI, relacionados con la gobernanza, la protección de los derechos humanos, y la lucha contra la corrupción. Pendiente – Elecciones generales y regionales en Sudáfrica. El Congreso Nacional Africano (ANC), en el poder desde las primeras elecciones libres y generales de 1994, aspira a revalidar el poder, aunque el principal partido opositor, la Alianza Democrática, podría dar una sorpresa. El país enfrenta innumerables desafíos, especialmente en materia de seguridad con altas tasas de criminalidad, una importante crisis energética, y niveles elevados de desempleo. Pendiente – Elecciones presidenciales en Túnez. Serán los primeros comicios tras el autogolpe de Estado del presidente tunecino, Kaïs Saied, en 2021, y el retorno al autoritarismo del único país que parecía haber consolidado la democracia tras las primaveras árabes de 2010-11. Saied ya ha anunciado que no permitirá la presencia de misiones de supervisión electoral extranjeras.

Transcript of an oral history interview with David Zobeck conducted by Sarah Yahm at the Sullivan Museum and History Center on February 10, 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project. The bulk of the interview focuses on Zobeck's experiences as an an instructor of the Transcendental Meditation technique, both at Norwich University and elsewhere. ; 1 David Zobeck, NU Instructor, Oral History Interview February 10, 2015 Interviewed by Sarah Yahm SARAH YAHM: So, I'm here with Dave Zobeck at Norwich, in our little studio at the Sullivan Museum. It is February 10th, 2015, which I know because tomorrow is my birthday. DAVE ZOBECK: Well, happy birthday tomorrow, in advance. SY: Thank you. I wasn't fishing for that or anything. DZ: No, not at all. SY: (laughs) And we're about to do an oral history interview. And so, question one is where were you born? DZ: I was born in Pueblo, Colorado, which happens to be a steel mill town. And it is the largest steel mill west of the Mississippi. And it's a town with wonderful mixed ethnicity. So, my neighborhood was from Yugoslavia, from Ljubljana in Yugoslavia, in Slovenia. And there's about a 12 or 13 block, square block area near the -- right on top of the steel mill. And then, on the other side of the bridge, there's a good-size Italian community. And now Latinos, mostly Mexicans, dominate the city's population. There's an African American population as well, Jewish and Greek. So, it's kind of like a little Pittsburgh. Little bit of everything. And I love it. It was a marvelous experience. I'm one of eight children, so we were good and Catholic. SY: What's your birth order? DZ: My -- I'm the sixth out of eight. So, I have a younger brother and a younger sister, yeah. SY: Number six. DZ: Yes. SY: You're, like, in the messy middle, right? DZ: Yes, kinda sorta, yeah. But, yeah, it was -- so, it's a marvelous experience growing up in that city. And really paid dividends, being exposed to all the different ethnicities. And, you know, we have pictures of -- when we were on our baseball team, it kind of looked like something out of the United Nations, you know? Little bit of everything. And we were cursed in several different languages when we won games, and it was marvelous. It was good experience. SY: Were there turf wars or was it [pretty immigrant?] -- DZ: No, no, not at all. It was very integrated. And especially my neighborhood, it was truly the statement about it takes a community to raise a child. I mean, the families looked out for each other and -- very much so. SY: Were your parents immigrants, too? DZ: My father -- my grandparents were. My father was born in this country. And my dad -- the house that I grew up in is the house that my father grew up in. So, my grandmother bought the house after my grandfather died in a -- extraordinary accident at work where he was killed with -- by a train. And my father was standing there, watching. And so, they bought the house, and my grandmother was raising the rest of the children. They had five children, and then she was also -- it was a boarding -- she was -- like a boarding house for steel mill workers. So, she would cook for them and so on and so forth, and that would help pay the rent and so on, so forth, so -- SY: And was that happening when you were a kid? 2 DZ: No, no, that was when my father was six years old. So -- SY: Oh, so she raised him alone? DZ: She raised them alone, yes. So, you know, it's a neighborhood and a community of extremely excellent work ethic. And if you're not work-- I mean, there was no welfare, just out of pride. Not that there wasn't a need for it. But no one would accept that. SY: Union town? DZ: Yes, and -- but they -- just was not going to happen. And everyone was -- you know, very -- oh, the yards were really well kept. The kids were clean, the -- you know, there was little to no crime other than orneriness. You know, lot of patriotism. Lot of guys went to war, and -- during World War II and then during Vietnam, my generation. So, it was a very beautiful experience because, you know, we were raised Catholic. The mass was in Slovenian for the older folks that didn't speak English. And then, you know, all the festivities and holidays -- and some of my friends who were Greek and Italian and Mexican and -- you know, when they had the festivals and -- everybody went and mixed, and it was great. It was a -- it's a marvelous place to grow up, but very -- definitely very blue collar. And all the children in my family worked their way through college. And that was the joy of my father, to see everyone with a college degree, of course, and all of our children and his grandchildren and great-grandchildren have -- everyone that could have graduated from college -- like, 48 of us or something like that, total, with nieces and nephews have graduated from college. And we expect success. We're going to make that. So, it was a really beautiful -- yeah, I'm very fortunate. SY: So, growing up, was the expectation that you would work in the steel mill or that you would get out? DZ: Oh, my family didn't work at the steel mill. My father didn't want that. He wanted us to do something different and -- not that it was a negative thing, but -- SY: He had seen his father die in a work-related accident. DZ: He did, and -- but he worked in a clothing store for a long time and was the manager of a clothing store. And then it burned down. And because he had assisted a customer who was extremely well off in -- fitting him with a suit, my father was excellent at doing that. And he was cleaning up the store one night after hours and he looked in the dressing room where this man was trying on his clothes, and he saw a paper bag and it was filled with money. And so, he knew who that belonged to. So, my father never drove a car. We didn't own a car. And my mother and father never drove a car their entire lives. Got on the bus and it took him, you know, an hour or so to get across town. And he knocked on the door, presented this bag of money to this gentleman. And, of course, he offered my father a reward, and that wasn't going to happen. And he got back on the bus, got home. Well, after the store burned down, my father was scrambling, looking for a job and "What are we going to do?" He has eight kids, and phone rings one day and it's this gentleman who left his money in the store. And he said, "I understand that the store burned down and you might be looking for work." He said, "If you call this number at the Pueblo ordnance depot," it's an Army depot, "they might be able to direct you some employment." So, my father called, and sure enough connected him to a job. So, he worked there for another, you know, 25 years as a federal government employee and was able to continue to support us and that sort of thing. So, you know, there -- it was a beautiful story, but I don't look back on it -- I don't feel -- we don't feel sorry for ourselves. It wasn't a poor us -- you know, we were poor, but it -- we were not at the 3 same time. I mean, we were rich with my parents and my brothers and sisters. And it was always a fun place for friends to come to the house, because they knew my mother would love them, and we would have a good time. And we were all athletic, we liked to play. And, you know, thank God, with all -- as rowdy as we were, there were no broken bones in the family or any sort of major illnesses. And so, in that regard, it was a -- we were real fortunate. But I'm extremely fortunate, so -- I had a marvelous upbringing. Marvelous. Yeah, no complaints. SY: So, well, I have two questions. DZ: Sure. SY: First of all, when you're a little kid and you're this kid running around on the streets, right, playing outside -- DZ: Sure. SY: -- what'd you want to be when you grew up? What were your dreams and visions? And also, what did you play? Do you remember if you had imaginary games that you played? DZ: Well, first of all, the games -- we played every sport imaginable. And one of the reasons is that, you know, we didn't go skiing because we didn't have the money or the transportation. But we did have a shotgun in the house, so my brother and I went hunting, you know? We would hunt ducks and geese and pheasants and, you know, quail and rabbit and -- not deer. We didn't have a rifle, but -- and we would eat everything that we shot. It was pretty good. So, that was one of the things that we did. The other thing -- I mean, we just dreamt of -- one of the things I wanted to be when I was younger was I wanted to be a professional baseball player. I always thought that I would be "in the show," you know? And I'm sure every young boy in that neighborhood who took up a glove and a ball and a bat had the same thing. I mean, we always had the same -- we thought we would all be on the same team. I mean, there was so much community spirit. And then, my younger brother was drafted several times and was very magical in his talents. And so, he was better than I was. He was younger. And that was my dream, that he -- then it, my dream, kind of shifted from myself doing that to him. So, I was helping him do everything he could to do that, because that was our dream. And in his senior year in college, unfortunately, he was injured and didn't get to make it. And that was a -- at that time, of course, it was a tragic event for both of us, you know? We saw this dream go by. But I think, at one point, I thought, early on -- I thought I might be a priest. And there was always this idea that the oldest -- I mean, one of the boys in every family would become a priest. And so, I thought it was me, and I enjoyed that thought. It was kind of cool. I just loved the parish priest. He was from Slovenia, and he was just -- he had such a heart of gold. He liked to help everyone, and I liked that feeling of helping everyone, and then the idea of saying mass and that was kind of cool. And these Catholic nuns, some of them were much better than others, of course. But there was one that was particularly interesting, and she was from our neighborhood. She grew up in our neighborhood, so she knew our culture and everything. So, she was -- she really took me under her wing, as she did all the children. But I just thought that was going to be something I would do, and even continue to think that when I was in the Air Force later on. I thought, as I was getting out of the Air Force, that I might become a Catholic priest. SY: Really? DZ: I thought so. I had the idea that I just wanted to do something extraordinary. And I thought maybe I would -- I talked to this priest when I was stationed in Torrejón Air Base 4 in Spain, in Madrid, Spain. And I told him that I wanted to become a priest. I thought I wanted -- I just wanted to talk to him about it. I wasn't 100 percent sure. And so, you know, we had these different chats from time to time, and then finally concluded that I could do priestly work because isn't everyone a priest? Isn't everyone a rabbi? Isn't everyone a minister? Can't you do that without having to wear the cloth and do that? So, he said, "You know, I think you'd be a wonderful father, and you would have that opportunity to do many things as well as help people." And so, it was a real cool experience. It wasn't a letdown. It was just, I think, a good part of my vision of doing things greater -- that I knew I didn't have to be one particular thing to do everything that I wanted to do. So -- SY: You're certainly doing pastoral work now. DZ: Well, you know, the interesting thing is, right after I got out of the Air Force, I had -- and I know you're probably going to -- I'm probably ahead of schedule here, but as far as -- SY: Chaos is my middle name. (laughter) Linearity? Whatever. DZ: OK. (laughter) Yeah, "so what if I have these questions that you're answering before I ask them?" SY: Oh, no, no, no. I write them down -- DZ: I'm teasing. SY: I never look at them. DZ: Yeah. SY: I just have them. DZ: Yeah, yeah, no that's good. SY: [For?] just in case. DZ: Good reference. SY: Yeah. DZ: But when I was finishing my last -- I was in the Air Force for four years. And when I finished my last -- the four years, last part of the four years, I was stationed in Torrejón Air Base in Spain, in Madrid, Spain. And I had already learned to meditate when I was in Tucson, Arizona, couple of years prior. And I got into some advanced courses, and I really enjoyed -- my friend and I started running, and then we started doing some camping, and we started watching what we were eating. And there was no -- there were very few guidelines at that time. We just started thinking about -- there has to be something to the quality of food that you put in your system, and how it helps your system perform. And, you know, kind of like the type of fuel or -- that you put in your vehicle. So, we thought we were just on the cutting edge, you know, with that thinking. And then, we would go camping and hiking, and we would just do the extreme stuff, like go -- we're going to go to the top of this mountain, we're going to camp out, and then we're going to come back. And this is what we do on the weekend when we're stationed in Tucson. And it was -- beautiful place to be. So, we would run together and [just?] that sort of thing. And one day, the -- there was an advertisement in the base activity center. And it said there's a yoga class. So, he said, "Let's go. Let's go check it out." So, this woman was talking about yoga and how it would benefit you. And we said, you know, why not? What do we have to lose? Nothing. So -- SY: Now, what year is this? What -- DZ: It was 1972. SY: OK, so this is the beginning or it -- 5 DZ: Yeah. SY: Yeah, OK. DZ: Nineteen seventy-two. Beginning of my four years. SY: [And you're?] -- DZ: Actually '71, I got in. But in '72, I was stationed in Tucson. SY: So, if you were in the Air Force, right -- DZ: Yes. SY: -- and yoga at this point is, like, firmly the bastion of, like, hippie stuff. DZ: Total hippie stuff, there's no question about it. SY: So, I'm having trouble picturing this guy in the Air Force being, like, "Sure, I'll go to yoga!" DZ: Well, it wasn't just "sure, I'll go to yoga." I said, "Let's check this out, you know, before we do that." And then she was talking about -- what caught our attention was she was talking about the benefits it had. And we were in that mode of how do we make our nervous systems function at a higher level? And so, we're running, and we got this runner's high. That's what the mode of, you know, the day was. You're going to get your runner's high, and we felt that. And then, we went hiking, and we would run up in the mountains in the higher levels and just say, you know, this is really cool. And all this healthy stuff. And we didn't drink and we didn't do pot. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life or even drank a cup of coffee. But I just thought there has to be some high and some way to get that inside of you. There has to be more inside than outside. What I see that grows out of the earth -- and people smoke pot and do all that sort -- that's good for them or whatever. They think that's good for them and that's their choice, no problem. But has to be the same or more inside. I have to be able to go inside and get to that place. Because when we would camp, we would look out and see the sky, and it would be -- and we'd see all these -- [well, you know?], in Flagstaff, Arizona, for example, we would look, and as far as -- I mean, it was just beautiful. And we would [say?] -- as far as we can see and then beyond what we can see still is space. So, it has to be the same thing inside. It has to be as far as we can go and beyond where we can go. It has to continually be space, so it has to be a reflection -- the outside has to be a reflection of the inside. And so, this woman started talking about yoga and "this position will create this flow in your circulation and will bring awareness and alertness to your mind," because she was talking to us in kind of a scientific way. And then we would start twisting around and doing things and -- you know, I didn't buy into all of it, for sure. It's a little too much. But we were doing that, and then -- we did that for about -- I don't know, about a month straight, and we would go to these classes three or four times a week. And we liked it. It was neat. And then, you know, lo and behold, here's this picture of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the community center on base. And it said there's a lecture on Transcendental Meditation. So, he said, "Hey, let's go to that one." I said, "Are you sure?" And he goes, "Yeah, let's go." I said, "All right, what do we have to lose? Let's go," right? So, we sat there. So, in comes this guy who was a Marine Corps veteran, and he had had two tours in Vietnam. And he sat down, and we -- there were about four of us, I think, that showed up. And, you know, introduced himself and was very casual, and start talking about meditation. And then he said, "My story is that I served two tours in Vietnam." So, that caught our attention. And he said, "When I got back, I knew there was something more. I was looking for something more." And he said, "So, I got back to Tucson, then I just 6 went to California. And I cruised around in the mountains, and I stayed on my own and I just kind of let this stress go out of my system. And then I start doing some thinking in this silence." And he said, "What I wanted to do was become a meditation teacher." So, he said, "When I came back to Tucson, I gathered my things and found out that there was a course in India where I could go and study with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi." He said, "So, I did it." So, he said, "When I went there" -- he said, "I had -- keep in mind, I hadn't listened to the radio, I hadn't watched TV, I haven't been in circulation in society for two or three years. So, I just went there to study. I was just going to be by myself and listen to this guy and then come back and teach people, because that's what I wanted to do." When he got there, he said there were people from -- international group. They were from all over the world. And so, he said Maharishi would come out and talk about meditation and different concepts of consciousness. And, in the evening, then he would retire. He would go into his room. And so, it was a young crowd, and they would hang out, kind of on the shore of the Ganges. And they would cook and, you know, associate with each other and sing and so on, so forth. So, he said there were these guys that were -- these four guys, and they had guitars. And they would sit around and they would make up poems and songs about people on the course. And one of the women on the course was named Prudence. And she was extremely shy. She was the sister of an actress, Mia Farrow. So -- and Mia was there. And so, he didn't know anybody. Keep that in mind. Just as innocent as you can imagine this so far. I know you're grinning and you know what's going on. So, anyway, Prudence, who I met a few years ago -- she's a marvelous human being and just a dear, dear person -- she would go to her room, because she was extremely shy. Extremely shy. And so, they kind of wanted the -- these guys kind of wanted to draw her out, so they made up a song. So, they went to her door and they knocked on her door, and they sing, "Dear Prudence, why don't you come out and play? Dear Prudence," yeah. And, you know, she didn't come out, and then eventually she did. And she would -- she was still very shy. And so, they were making up different songs about different situations. And so, they started to talk to my friend. And so, they called him G.I. Joe, because he had these fatigue pants on. And he didn't have his -- you know, he was -- you could wear your fatigue pants, just -- it didn't say Marine Corps, didn't say sergeant or anything like that. So, he had that. And he didn't really care how he looked, and he was just there for the knowledge. And so, they start making up a song about GI Joe. They called him GI Joe and that sort of thing and so, you know, hey, that was kind of cool, you know? So, anyway, he became a teacher. He came back from India. He was going to his first lecture and he turns on his radio in his little jalopy that he was driving, and what comes across the radio was, "Jojo was a man from Tucson, Arizona. He smoked some California grass. Get back, Jojo. Get back to where you once belonged." Get back to the USSR. And he said, "I've heard that song before." And someone said, "Yeah, those are the Beatles." He said, "Really?" And then he -- start telling stories about, you know, John Lennon. He said he had these multi-colored glasses on and he had, you know, long hair, and he used to wear these necklaces. And he was really bright, and how he would have conversations with Maharishi. And Paul McCartney, of course. And then Prudence later on was married, and she had a son and she named him Paul. And so, they're still really good friends. And he told stories about that. But it wasn't about them, the idea that he liked -- that he related to me that was intriguing is that this man had some knowledge. Maharishi had some knowledge to take 7 you within yourself. And it wasn't about him, it was just about the knowledge that he had received from previous masters, and he passed it on. And now, this guy could teach this information. And that was really intriguing to him. So, we started, and it was everything that it was cranked up to be. I'd started with no expectation. I thought -- same thing I did with yoga. Like, if this is going to work, it's going to work. I'll do exactly how they say to do it, and I'll get the results. So, we did. And my friend Scott Nichols and I started on the same day, and since that time I've been meditating regular, and I haven't missed one time since I started. I think it is everything that it's cranked up to be. And what inspired me to become a teacher was just the idea that I felt really good already. I didn't -- I wasn't in any dire straits to learn a technique that would pull me out of some stressful situation in my life. SY: So, you weren't -- you were seeking, but you weren't hungry. Doesn't -- DZ: Not [at?] -- well, you know, the thing is, I was hungry, but I wasn't desperate. SY: [Yeah?]. DZ: And I think I've always been a seeker of how to get better things in life. My own natural intensity pushes me to say I want to be the best I can be, I want every day to be the best day. What is this? You know, I want to see that. I don't want to get in dire straits to wait until I need something. What happens if you take it when you're already functioning, you know, fairly well? Can you get better? Can you get to the next level? And that's kind of the attitude I took with it. And when we began to meditate, it was just marvelous. I had better running times, I slept better. I performed better on tests. I had a lot more stamina. I was more organized. And, you know, it just opened up a whole new vision in my life. And I thought it was already really good. So, when I did that for a couple years, I thought when I got out, here's an opportunity to become a teacher. So, when I was in Spain, the Spanish TM [Transcendental Meditation] teacher in Madrid was a director of the Spanish organization, TM organization, and they were just going to start a teacher training course. And he said, "You'd be a fool to go back to the States. There's thousands of teachers, and everyone's taught everyone else, you know?" He said, "If you stay here, you can teach lots of people, because there's only going to be eight new teachers in the whole country." So, I love Spain, it was where I wanted to go since I was in fourth grade and drew a map of my favorite country other than United States. It was Spain. And I remember my father and I worked on this thing. We had glitter in the river and we had -- for the forest, we'd stopped up these little twigs. And it was on this big yellow piece of -- I can remember it clearly, and I was so excited. And then, when I got a chance to go there, it was marvelous. And I started to study Spanish on the base through the University of Maryland. I took five courses in a row for credit. And then I would just go downtown and practice. So, it came to me like riding a bike. I mean, it just -- it made sense to me. And I was in the country, and I would go down after class, and I would go to Madrid. And on the weekends, I would go to the train station and take a train to some little tiny pueblo someplace, just by myself to force myself to speak Spanish. And I would practice with the Spanish Air Force guys who shared the base with us, and go visit their families on weekends and stuff. And I went to the TM Center and did advanced courses. And I became pretty proficient in Spanish, so I became a teacher with the Spanish natives and did it all in Spanish. Eight months in the first two phases of a teacher training course. And [in the?] third phase, we went to [Avoriaz?], France, and studied with Maharishi, in person. So, I was their translator. And that's who made me a 8 teacher of TM. So, you kind of -- you follow exactly what he asks to do to make sure that the technique is done right. And it's effective, so it's not about you. It's about following what the masters did, and exactly in that same form. So, it was very, very challenging. But when I began to teach my first course, I went back to the base, Torrejón, and I taught 20 of my friends how to meditate, because they would -- they'd been wanting to meditate because they saw me meditate. And sometimes, they would just like to come in the room and sit quietly. And I didn't do anything. I don't sit in the lotus or go "om" or anything crazy. I just sit quietly in a chair, and that's really no big deal. So, that's how that began. So, I got a chance to travel around the country, and I taught about -- and then was lecturing in Spanish, of course. Probably taught about 900 people and -- for that whole year. And then, I came back to my hometown. And I was gone for about three years by that time. Hadn't seen my family in three years. And while I was sitting in the back of the -- on the back porch, my mother was ironing and -- you know, I was the only one -- the only sibling left in the house. Everyone else was married and out of the house. And my mother and father were there. So, this is my first time in my life I had a chance to be one on one with them. And it was marvelous, because I was certainly older then, and they didn't have all these other things going on. And, you know, my father was retired. And it was just one on one with my mother and father, like being an only child for a period of time. And it was glorious. I mean, my mother and father are just saintly. They're just magnificent human beings. I idolize them. The phone rings during a conversation. I pick up the phone, and there is a woman on the other end, and she asks me my name. "Are you Dave Zobeck?" "Yes." "Do you teach Transcendental Meditation?" "Yes." "Would you like to teach in the Colorado State Penitentiary, TM?" I said, "Yes." She said -- I said, "How did you get my name? I mean, I've only been home a week." She said, "I'll tell you later, so -- but tomorrow, I'm going to show up in front of your house. Give me your address. You're going to follow me to the penitentiary. We're going to talk to the warden at the maximum security penitentiary, and I'm going to try to convince him that we need this, because we have so much violence and we need something. And I'm sure this will work." "OK." So, we went down there, we talked to him. He put us on hold and he said, you know, "That sounds great." We hit it off right away. He was a Latino guy. He had a little Spanish accent, we begin to speak Spanish, he -- then, that kind of melted the barriers. And on the way back from the maximum -- oh, on the way out of the penitentiary or out of our meeting at the maximum security penitentiary, Tia, the guard, had to go to work. So, she was dressed in her uniform, of course. And she said -- she turned to me and she shook my hand. She said, "Good job, white boy." I said, "Great, there you go. That's good." And that was cool, I mean, you know? That was -- I had no problem with that. SY: No, you were in. DZ: I felt very comfortable with that, and I grew up in that kind of atmosphere. In the service, of course, same thing, and I loved it. And on the way home -- it was 50 miles away from my home in Pueblo. It was in Canyon City, and I stopped at the medium security penitentiary, just on a whim, and I thought I'm going to see if the program director's in. And so, I went down and I stopped at the guard shack, and I told them I had an appointment with the program director, which was a little on the untrue side. And he said, "Go right down and they'll help you out." So, I drove my vehicle down there and they patted me down and escorted me to the -- a bench outside of this office and said, 9 "You'll have to wait here. He has someone in his office." And so, I was waiting in my little coat and tie, and there was an inmate and he was swabbing the deck. He was cleaning, mopping up. And, of course, he's there with his number on one side and his last name on the other side. And he looks at me, and he says, "Hey, what are you doing? Are you a lawyer?" I said, "No, are you?" And he goes, "No." He goes, "I like that answer." He goes, "What are you doing, man?" I said, "Well, I'm here to see if the medium security personnel are open to the idea of a meditation class." He said, "What kind of meditation? Transcendental Meditation?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Do you know George Ellis?" I said, "Yeah, I know George Ellis. George Ellis is a meditation teacher." He said, "How do you know George?" I said, "Two weeks ago, I met him in France." He said, "What'd you think?" I said, "I like George. He's a small guy, big ego." I said, "I like him." He goes, "Yep, that's George." He said, "Well, he taught me in Folsom Penitentiary. So, I do Transcendental Meditation." He said, "I'll tell you what. Here's what you do. You wait 'til you see Mr. Marshall, the programs director. When you come out, I'll have 20 of the toughest blomp-blomp-blomp-blomp-blomp guys here in the penitentiary, and we're going to start." I said, "Is that how it works?" He said, "That's how it works." I said, "OK." Sure enough, Mr. Marshall came to the door and he said, "I can see you now. Well, what are you here for?" So, I start talking to him. We had a marvelous talk. We talked about John Deere tractor, we talk about hunting deer. We talked about fishing, we talked about baseball. We talked about the stress he has in prison, his family. Yeah. And I said -- I was talking a little bit even about meditation. He said, "That sounds really interesting." He said, "I think I might like to try that." Well, he and I walked out. When we walk out, sure enough, 20 guys, inmates, are standing right in front of the door. And they already have their names signed up on a piece of paper. And they have Mr. Marshall's name as being the employee sponsor. So, they go, "Mr. Marshall? Here's what we're going to do." He said, "Now, boys, just a minute." Said, "We've got to check this out. This isn't how it works." And so, long story and fast forward, had it all checked out, and we did -- they didn't have any money, but they said, you know, "We're going to start." So, I said I would raise some money and we would get this done. So, I kind of went around the different TM centers around in Colorado and kind of [moved?] some money for sponsors. But I made the inmates pay $50. So, they were making 25 cents a day. But I said, "You're going to have to invest in it, because if you're [giving to it -- given it?], you may not do it." "Well, we don't have that kind of money." "Well, you'll find it." Now, what I did find out was, for marijuana in the penitentiary, if someone had three joints of marijuana in a matchbox -- that's what they call it, a matchbox -- it was $75. And someone would smuggle that in, and it would risk them getting a felony, and they would -- but it was worth it to them, so they did it. So, I said, in my first introductory lecture -- there were 75 inmates in this closed -- there were no windows in this closed room, and they could smoke at the time, of course. And I walk in and, you know, all the whistling began and all the catcalls and all the, you know, those kinds of things. And as they were talking, I finally -- it was too much noise, and I said, "Just a second. You know, I came here to talk about meditation. And those of you who are not interested, you have two options. You can go out this door or you can go out this door." Then it got very quiet. Course, there were a few other kinds of ways we said that in prison lingo. And they liked it, they clapped, it got very quiet. You could hear a pin drop. And afterwards, I told them what TM was, and whoever wanted to start, here's the 10 rules. And they clapped, and then we started our class. So, I taught TM for four years in the Colorado State Penitentiary. And the community sponsored -- you know, they would sponsor an inmate. And so, I didn't make any money. It wasn't a money-making thing, but I traveled back and forth from my hometown, which was 50 miles away, when I was -- I was enrolled as a student to finish my bachelor's degree with the GI Bill. And then I moved 167 miles away to go to grad school, and I would commute on the weekends down to the penitentiary. And then, you know, like, Friday, I would go -- drive down to the penitentiary. I'd work till 9:00, I'd go and stay at my mother and father's house, 50 miles away. Then I'd come back that Saturday morning, spend the entire day there from 8:00 to 8:00. Go back Saturday night, come back to the penitentiary Sunday morning and work till noon and then drive back to grad school. And it was a joy, what I learned. All the things I learned while I was there, because I was not a guard. I was not part of the system. They took me under their wing. They told me how all the crimes happened. (laughs) They educated me. And I felt that that was a real intriguing place to be. They were teaching me. And I wasn't, like, taking them into my homes or, you know, they were going to come and stay with me when I got -- it wasn't that sort of thing. It was just, like, "Here's what I do. And then, if you do this, you maybe have a better chance with a clear mind to not return, because your thinking will be different." But I didn't tell them how to live their lives or to behave, because that doesn't work after they've done 20 years and stuff. So, it was definitely a group of the alpha dogs in the penitentiary that were the heavyweights. And the violence level started to be reduced by a lot, because at one point I had 50 out of 500 meditating. And when the guys would meditate during the day -- they had to be locked down three times a day so they could be counted to make sure that everyone's there. So, three times a day, they had to go back to the cell and lock down, and the guard would go by the cell and count every single one of them. Well, during the count, it was about 30 minutes. So, the guys decided to meditate during that 30 minutes. Well, traditionally, it's really loud, because the guys have a chance just to yell and scream, and there's nothing they could -- what are they going to do, put them in prison? (laughs) So -- and these guys would meditate, and they were the heavyweights. Pretty soon, they start telling everybody, "When we do count, you shut up." (laughs) So, it started getting real quiet in all the different cell blocks. So, the guards were going, "Wait a minute, something is really unusual. What's happening? Because there's a change in these guys." So, every day, I would come in and I'd be in my little sport coat, and I would -- they would call the -- Mr. Zobeck's meditation class in the psychology room. And the guys would come in and I'd say, "Hey, how you doing?" Blah-blah-blah. So, at one point, the captain -- one of the captains came to me and said, "Get in my office," in a real stern tone. You know, right in front of the inmates. And the inmates went, "Oooh!" You know, like, "Uh-oh!" SY: "He's in trouble!" DZ: Yeah, exactly, you know? So, I went in the office and I sat down. And there was another inmate by his side, and he was talking to me in a very stern voice and it was kind of puzzling in the beginning, of course. And he said, "Do you" -- he said, "Young man, do you know that it's a felony to bring cocaine in a state penitentiary?" I said, "Sounds good to me. That sounds about right. Yeah, I do. That sounds -- yeah." I, like -- and then he said, "Well, you could be doing time with the rest of these guys, just like the guys you're trying to help and -- if you don't watch your step." And I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." 11 Then it occurred to me, I said, "You're talking about me bringing in cocaine? Oh." I said, "Captain, let me just give you a quick bio. I've never had a cigarette in my life. I don't drink. I've never had a cup of coffee. If you want to get your sniff dog and take him in my vehicle right now, I'll sign release papers. You could do a strip search, I'll give you a urine sample, a blood sample, whatever you would like to do. And, you know, we could do that in front of the inmates. I'll do whatever -- just so the evidence is clear. And if you don't find anything, I'll teach you meditation, because you're really stressed out. But good things are happening. (laughter) You know, when violence level goes down, that's actually a good thing." So, after that, when the -- when we were there for about a year, the in-- SY: Wait, wait, but so how did that resolve? That whole cocaine thing, how did that rumor start? DZ: He just -- it started because, you know, they -- the only reason that they would see that there were inmates being calm was when there were some drugs in the facility. SY: Of course, cocaine would not be a drug that would calm them down. (laughs) DZ: Well, but you know what? When they're maniacal -- if they're addicts, that would be a nice little fix. And there were several addicts in there. So, when they're coked up, they're a little bit different than when they're -- yeah. SY: So, he thought you were bringing in drugs because -- DZ: Yes, because I -- SY: -- the change in behavior was so dramatic. DZ: Yeah, and I was always happy. And that -- so, he knew that I had to be coked up, on coke, because I was always happy. And so, anyway -- but I saw a connection. The inmate that was sitting next to him was a convicted sex offender. I didn't know that at the time. And I didn't know the social aspects of the prison and sex offenders. What happened was, he came to learn TM. And I said, "Yeah, you could learn." But the inmates in the class told him, "Uh-uh. You're not coming with us, because if you sit with us, then that means we approve of who you are, and that ain't happening." So, I didn't realize that dynamic had transpired. And so, he was trying to upset the applecart and get this kicked out totally by putting this "I use cocaine" thing on me. And they would kick me out, and there goes the program and he'd get some revenge. SY: Right. DZ: So, I figured that out later on, and that aspect came to me. But, at any rate -- and then, after that, many guards saw what was happening, and they would come to me individually, like, privately and look around to see if there was anybody looking at us talking and say, "Here's my number. Call me at home." And I would call them at home, and said, "I want to start." So, I would drive to their homes, talk to them, their wives, and their kids and teach them. And then they said, "What we want is privacy, that you don't tell anyone, because if the guards -- other guards see us, then we're associating with an inmate program. If inmates see us, then, you know, we're -- it's a pretty negative situation." And so, at any rate -- and after -- of course, after four years -- and I was in grad school, then I was married, and I just couldn't continue. It was too long a deal. So, we had a very positive parting. But it was a wonderful experience, and it worked. The only thing I regret is I didn't keep real good -- great tabs on all the changes that occurred. I wasn't into the research end of it, and I regret that but -- 12 SY: Yeah. Any -- do you have any anecdotes of, like, transformations that happened with individual -- did you keep in touch with any of the inmates or -- DZ: They all kept in touch with me. I still have -- at one point, one of the most positive things, I think, is that -- well, I had one of the guys that was in there -- and he finished 20 years. He was in there for murder. And that's not good, and I'm not condoning any crime that any of these guys -- they're all wrong and they all -- SY: Yeah, of course. DZ: -- earned -- SY: Yeah. DZ: -- and earned the -- SY: Yeah, yeah. DZ: -- earned their time in prison. He got out and he spent one whole year in a monastery, on his parole. And the Jesuit brothers in Granby, Colorado, in a monastery, took him in, and he was in silence for a whole year. And he really enjoyed that, and it really made a huge difference. I keep in touch with him. Another one of the inmates who graduated, I -- got out and then finished the course. Became, like, an agent for a few professional athletes, some professional musicians. There's one right now who -- well, I'll tell you a personal connection, it was interesting. One of the guys got out, and he was from the city -- he grew up in the city in Colorado that I went to grad school in. It was Greeley, Colorado, at the University of Northern Colorado. And he said, "I understand" -- he said, "You said you're going to go to grad school in Greeley." I said, "Yeah." He said, "Could you look up my dad?" "Sure." So, he gave me the address, didn't tell me any story about his dad or anything. Didn't tell me anything about his father. I knock on the door, Mr. Smith comes to the door. I introduce myself, I said, "Hi, my name is Dave Zobeck, I teach meditation at the prison, and I met your son, Ted in the prison." And so, he starts cursing his son. "Ah," you know, he goes, "he's the cause of my divorce, because of his drugs and all that stuff. I hope he rots in hell," you know? And, OK, well, I said, "Well, I didn't know that part of it." I said, "So, like, you know, step away from the shotgun. I'm going to go back to my car," you know? Then he goes -- then he says, "Well," he said, "that's not your fault." Said, "Well, come on in." And fast forward, we became good friends. And he was an older guy, he just needed somebody to talk to. When I got back to the prison, I got in touch with Mr. Ted Smith and I said, "You got to tell me the whole story next time. You didn't tell me that." He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, put your father on your visiting list, and I want him to come and talk to you. And I'm going to try to convince him to -- and he wants to talk to you. And you've got to drop that, you just have to talk to him." And so, anyway, they did. So, after I finished the four years -- and so, that went really well. But Mr. Smith would come and visit me a lot. I mean, sometimes uninvited. And I needed to study and he would just knock on the door and he would sit down, and he'd want to tell me his life story. And so -- and, you know, I accommodated most of the time, and sometimes I just couldn't do it. But I hadn't seen him for about two weeks. And in the meantime, I got a job at the Sheriff's Department in Greeley, Colorado. The Weld County Sheriff's Department. And I was a counselor in the jail, running this rehab program. I was sitting in my office, the phone rings. And this is when I was finished teaching TM in the prison. The phone rings, and it's Ted, the inmate who introduced me to his father. And we start talking. "How you doing?" "Good, I have a job, everything's going well." He said, "But my dad died." And I hadn't seen him in two 13 weeks. He said, "It was just sudden. He died and we're having the funeral. Would you and your wife come to the funeral?" I said, "Of course we will," you know? And he said, "I just need some support [there?]. I don't have any family." "Of course." So, you know, my wife and I went to the funeral, and then we had him over for dinner, because he wasn't any threat to us. I mean, he wasn't, like, you know. So, anyway, we had him to dinner. So, during dinner, he said, "My father really liked you, and he really appreciated you did all that work for free." He said, "He wanted you to have the house." I said, "Now, wait a minute. Time out. Have the house? I'm not going to have the house." He goes, "Well, we'll make it good for you," because he said, "I shouldn't have the house," because his drug guys would move in and he would just -- and it's a mess for him, and he was about 100 miles away. And he said, "I'd just rather have the money and move on. I'm ready to move on." So, he gave us, like -- it was just incredibly inexpensive. So, he said, "For your hard work in the prison for four years, this is your reward." So, we -- I've got the G.I. Bill, bought this house, and it was our first little house. And, you know, we raised our first little girl in it for a few years, and then we moved to another one and we used that as a rental house. But that was probably the most powerful anecdote that -- but some of the guys were -- I've lost track. You know, several of them, I know, had died. And, you know, it's not unusual that someone who's been in prison awhile has the stress factor along with them. But I didn't see, you know -- and some (inaudible) [00:45:22] I'm sure reoffended. I didn't keep that close track. But it was a marvelous experience. And, yeah, it introduced me to the field that I stayed in, the criminal justice field. I got interested in that. SY: OK, so -- DZ: I liked the adrenalin flow. SY: -- what was your master's in? DZ: My master's was in psychology, agency counseling. So, I did a lot of rehab work in the jails after that and ran a halfway house and that sort of thing, so -- and as a probation officer, when I was a probation officer, I did a lot of one-on-one kind of therapeutic kinds of things, and interventions in the community and that sort of thing. So, I really -- growing up in the neighborhood where I was, working in the penitentiary, and then getting that exposure and then applying that life experience to a career was a real blessing, you know? So, yeah, and I didn't teach TM when I was a probation officer, because that was a conflict of interest. I just recently started teaching since I've been here at Norwich. SY: So, I have a couple questions. DZ: OK. SY: First of all, do you know about Vermont's whole restorative justice model? DZ: Yes. SY: Yeah. DZ: Yes. SY: I was on a reparative board for awhile. It's pretty amazing. DZ: Yeah. I was certified as a trainer for restorative justice. SY: Oh, you were? DZ: Yes. SY: Yeah. 14 DZ: And Vermont had a prison here, and years ago, they had a TM program in the prison. And a woman by the name of Susan Gore, of Gore-Tex, who's from Vermont, had this project going and -- about the same time I was doing my project in Colorado. SY: Interesting. DZ: Yeah. SY: Doesn't exist anymore, does it? DZ: It doesn't what? SY: It doesn't exist anymore, does it? DZ: No. No, no. No. SY: So, that was one question I had to ask. And then, I'm just thinking about all these stories, and I'm thinking that you're in this unique position, right, where you can bridge these two worlds, right? So, I would imagine that you're different than most people teaching TM, certainly in the '70s, right? DZ: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. SY: And, you know, you're this guy who was in the service, right? So, you can, like, walk, you can be, like, respected for having this particular type of authority, right? You can tell them to take it or leave it -- DZ: Right, right, right. SY: -- in whatever crude terms you need to. DZ: Right, right, right. SY: Right? And have that sort of, like, gravitas, right? And then you're also able to teach TM. So, I -- is that something you've thought about? Like, how you sort of intersect these worlds? DZ: No, I just -- you know, I taught TM because that was the most wonderful opportunity I had at the present, and I got really into it. And then, when I came back to the states, what I was going to do was get my degree and possibly go back to Europe. And then, this project came along. And then, of course, in grad school I met my wife. And, you know, life happened in that regard. So, the next page in the next chapter was, you know, I have an opportunity to actually work in this field. And I had this previous kind of experience prior to that, and it wasn't for pay. But it was really on the front line, and the prison experience was real. I mean, there was a guy who was -- there was a lot of things that happened in the penitentiary, you know? Like murders and that sort of thing, and just being exposed to that. And I liked the adrenaline rush. I liked that there was an excitement and you had to be on your toes all the time. You had to be alert, and how to handle that, knowing that in a penitentiary, you're outnumbered if you're a guard. So, your best weapon is your mouth, and you could either get in trouble with it or you can calm people down. Because the inmates -- you live at the mercy of the inmates when there's 500 inmates. There's -- they don't walk around -- the guards don't walk around the penitentiary with guns for good reason, because somebody's going to take it away. So, it was kind of an idea of learning how -- it was -- it reminded me of a -- and I've never done this, but it was kind of like maybe being in the jungle, learning how to pet the lions, and still have all your fingers. These guys could kill me anytime. I mean, they were all -- and there was 20 of them. And out of the 20, 12 of them had been convicted of murder. And, you know, they weren't rehabilitated. But I have to give this one little story. So, what I do is I'd -- the first day with everyone that is taught, they learn with a teacher, one-on-one. They get the instruction. So, they receive a mantra, they receive the technique 15 how to use it properly, and then they meditate. They get it the first day, so you don't have to be a black belt in TM. You get -- you learn it right away. It's so simple, 10-year-olds learn. So, it's an effortless technique, which makes it really effective. You know, and it's certainly not a concentration technique or a contemplation technique and -- concentration takes a lot of effort and focus and mental activity, so it usually stays on a surface level. And contemplation is kind of -- you ask your mind to imagine a situation that -- you work yourself to get images or a value, like kindness or whatever it is, and imagine yourself in, for example, Costa Rica when you're actually in Vermont. But this is supposed to give you this relaxed feeling. Or imagine yourself, you know, the kindest person you can ever be. But it's thinking, and as long as you're thinking, you're on a surface level. So, TM is a little different than either one of those. It takes advantage of what's called the natural tendency of the mind. It sounds like a lot of woo-woo, but what it means is that if, you know, you and I are talking -- and I don't know what your favorite music is. What is your favorite music, type of music? SY: It's usually folk music of some variety. DZ: OK, so as you and I are talking, if one of your favorite tunes floats through the door, where would you imagine your attention might -- [yeah?]. SY: Sure, yeah. DZ: To the music. So, it's more charming. It's something more charming. So, what happens is that, in TM, when we -- when I teach a person to meditate, the natural tendency of the mind is to go to quieter levels of the mind where there -- it is more charming. There's more quietness, more silence. Now, how do you get there? So, the first day, I teach you a mantra, which is a word that has no meaning. Some mantras do mean -- there's thousands of mantras all over the world. Probably millions, I don't know. But the mantras that are used by TM are sound that has no meaning whatsoever. And sounds have certain effects on your nervous system. So, it's a soothing sound and I choose that for each person. Some people could have the same mantra, doesn't matter. But the technique, how to use it properly, is the other half of that knowledge. So, I teach that the first day. And by this soothing sound, and when it's used correctly, that directs the tension to finer levels of thinking and quieter levels of the mind, to a point where, you know, there is nothing but silence. And silence is different than quietness. Silence is -- in silence, there's no thought. So, the idea of Transcendental Meditation -- meditation being some form of thinking or prayer, and transcending going beyond that. So, you go beyond the level of thought to where there's silence. And that part is in every nervous system of every human being. So, transcending is that experience of silence. And so, 600 studies later -- show that, you know, the prefrontal cortex and all areas of the brain are affected in a real positive way. So, it creates a situation where there's -- it's called restful alertness. So, the restfulness is that -- it's a mental technique, but there's deep physical relaxation. So, the heart rate is reduced, the breath rate, the pulse rate. Even cortisol, which is a chemical in the body that measures stress is reduced almost to nothing. So, the physical part is there. But on the mental part, there's some awareness. So, it's not sleep, it's not dreaming, it's not being awake, it's not -- it's neither of those states of consciousness, but it's this pure awareness. So, when someone experiences this several times during a 20 minute period of meditation, which is the length of time that people meditate twice daily -- that that prefrontal cortex and all areas of the brain are affected positively, and there is some coherence in the brain. So, there is awareness. 16 There's alertness. And so, when you experience that and you finish, then you're refreshed. So, it reaches the level that's deeper than that of sleep. But it's not sleep, because sleep is measurable and your brain behaves a certain way during sleep. And the EEG that measures -- that does this research doesn't lie, doesn't make anything up. It says, hey, this is a different state of consciousness. So, we can tell when a person's sleeping by the function of the brainwaves. Then, when they begin to dream, there's some rapid eye movement, and you can tell there's a different function. I'm not being incredibly scientific, just -- right, just general. And when we're awake, like right now, there's a different -- so, scientists in another room looking at this screen could say that Sarah and Dave are sleeping, dreaming, and awake. And then, when we meditate, they're saying something different is happening. So, it's a fourth state of consciousness. So, being able to actually teach that to someone, knowing that it goes to what is a natural place in their own being, in their own mind and their own physiology, which is silent, and they get these deep results -- and when they come out and they're more alert and more relaxed, they're probably going to have better behavior. They're probably going to be more efficient in their activity. They're probably going to be more effective. So, when the violence level went down in the prison, it wasn't because Dave Zobeck said, "Be good." It was because we have 50 out of 500, and they're having more brain coherence, because every decision comes from the brain. It just made common sense to me that I didn't have to spew anything. I didn't have to tell them, "Eat -- be a vegetarian, think of Maharishi all day long. Quit your religion." Because that was convincing to me. I was Catholic, I didn't have to abandon my religion. I didn't have to become a vegetarian, because I'm not. I didn't have to walk around with a picture of Maharishi on me and think Maharishi thoughts, which -- and I met him. He's a marvelous human being. A marvelous human being. Incredible. I mean, he's a Hindu monk and I'm not. You know, I'm okay with that and it's not a big deal. So, to bring that knowledge into this field, knowing that in the field of corrections, with inmates and employees that work in that field, that -- high stress rates -- that police officers and people in law enforcement, corrections, they don't live to normal life expectancy because of stress. Not because of the bad guy. And then military, same thing. I mean, when -- sadly enough, when we have 13 -- minimum of 13 suicides per day, I find that -- I'm extremely patriotic, and these are our men and women, and these are people's -- course, now they're children -- that I have been with, and even if they're not -- that I don't know them, they're related and I understand that stress. I've never been in combat, so I don't understand that stress. But I tire of seeing our beautiful flag folded into a triangle and presented to a grieving family because the effects of their duty drove them to that place that they thought was better than living. And what am I going to do about it? I mean, you can only cry for so long. I want to do something about it. So, I think that this is a tool that may have an effect on that. And if someone can do that -- and I taught on this campus, I've taught a number of veterans that were -- have done a number of tours in different wars. And the results are phenomenal. And it is such a privilege for me to do that, it's such an honor for me to do that, to share that. So, to be here at Norwich is just -- this is -- SY: So, yeah, so how did you get -- DZ: -- ideal. SY: -- pulled back into this work? 17 DZ: Well, I retired from my work early, and I put in 28 years in the field. But I decided that I wanted to teach TM again. In order to do that, I had to do a recertification course, and I went to this recertification course and I met this guy there. He said, "I work for the David Lynch Foundation and I'd like you to work for me." I had no idea what that was. I said, "Oh, okay, that sounds good." And, you know, no big deal. And so, he contacted me later on and said, "You have a chance to go to Norwich and teach TM." And I thought that was England. I was all excited. I thought, cool, we're going to England. Break out -- "Hello." Break out the passport. (laughter) So, I came here, and the first day that I came -- it was kind of, like, an incredibly snowy day like today. I went to a meeting in the Plumley Armory, and I walked into the Nicholson Room and there were nine vets sitting around this table. And I had my little coat and tie on, of course, which is kind of the uniform of the day for TM teachers. That's what -- Maharishi would like people to look professional, so I did. And I had Peg Meyer and Shelby [Gile?] and the veterans, and they started introducing themselves around the table. And this man said his name, and he said that he had done some tours and gone through some troubled times. And so, I looked him in the eye across the table and I said, "Welcome home, brother." And he started to cry. And I got up and I went around the table. And he stood up and I gave him a big hug, and he was just crying. And I just said, "Welcome home." And he sat down, and we continued. And the woman next to me whispered -- she said, "Did you know him?" I said, "I've never seen him before in my life." And so, then we had a chance -- after that meeting, we told them about TM, and they were -- they could start. They didn't have to pay anything. Going to make an exception, because we had an agreement between our agency and Norwich. And then, I went and talked to the student body. I mean, there were about 200 [core or Corps?] members, and we got a group and we started the first study. I wasn't the researcher, but the researchers did -- took some measures before and after. And then, the results were great. Doctor -- or President Schneider got up in front of the students that were there and he said, you know, "Ladies and gentlemen, you have the opportunity to learn this." He said, "It's everything that they say it is. There's no obligation, and you can volunteer if you like. If you don't, that's okay." He said, "But I've checked it out. I've looked at the research," and he said, "that's the only thing that convinced me." He said, "Then I started it, and since I've been doing it, it's wonderful." You know? Not exactly his word, but that he started -- SY: So, the TM with people returning with PTS makes a lot of sense to me. And the TM with platoons beforehand also makes sense, but can? -- I feel like there's this elemental contradiction, right, which is no matter how resilient people are, in war they're going to be forced to see and do things that damage the psyche, right? DZ: Sure, sure. SY: So, I guess, how do you think about that? And how can -- do you believe that TM can, to some degree, change the nature of conflicts? DZ: Well, a couple of things. You know, it only works if you do it. And if a person's in a conflict -- I mean, I understand from a practical sense they're not going to call time out and go, "I got to meditate." But there are going to be some down times. There's going to be conflict that's going to cause that damage no matter what. If you do TM, you don't -- yeah, do TM. What do you do about it when you have it? And this is something that I like in this regard, because they could do it by themselves, and it's an extra tool. If they want to talk to a psychologist, that's great. If they want to take some medication, that's 18 great. Whatever. They can do this by themselves. The veterans that I taught said, "I wish I would have had this when I was in combat, because there were times when I was just losing my mind and I didn't know what to do. And I had time on my hands. I wish I could've sat down and done this." So, in a practical sense, we're giving them tools to use when they can -- if they're in a conflict or if they're not actively doing anything, they have some downtime, to relieve that stress, to maybe -- we don't have any data yet that says TM prevents PTS. I would never say that. Maybe lessen the effects, or even when they get back they have a tool immediately to use. Because what we know is that alcohol, drugs, you know, the different behaviors that break out -- violence, you know, it's fight or flight kind of time when someone has post-traumatic stress. They -- you lash out or they'll walk away from things, and they're not the same person when they return, because what's happened is the brain is damaged. So, the hope is that we can give them this tool to maybe get them strong before they get into the conflict. And if they're kind of doing this workout for the brain, being more flexible to stress that's incoming, they won't react as badly or as poorly as they did if they didn't have the tool. So, what we're doing is -- it's kind of like that analogy of, you know, there's this crack team that rescues people jumping in the river, and they're going down the tubes. And they can pull out every single guy in the river, and every single woman in the river. They can -- they're really good at it. Then someone gets the wise idea and says, "Why don't we catch them where they're jumping in? You know, we can prevent something." So, this is a preventative program. So, we get the vets that have -- coming back, they're on campus. We also get those who are going to be commissioned and go into the service. And I have, you know, over -- probably about 100, and I get text messages from several of them that say, "I meditated before I flew today. I was clear as a bell." Or, "I finished Army Ranger training, and if not -- but for TM, I wouldn't have made it." And so, I see that there's some results. And, you know, I'm not a meditation cop. I don't make them do it. I give them the tool, and that's what the president said. We're going to give them a tool that is proven and see if that makes the difference. SY: No, that's very interesting. So, OK, so Norwich is founded on this idea of the citizen soldier, right? DZ: Mm-hmm. SY: And I think that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, right? But part of it that I find compelling is the idea that you're creating soldiers who are thinkers, right? Who are -- they follow orders, but they also to some degree come to their own conclusions, right? So, I'm wondering if you feel like TM can create better, more ethical warriors, if it has a moral effect, perhaps, in some way? DZ: Well, I mean, if -- the idea that -- that's a good question. The idea is that -- I think a person's morals don't necessarily come from meditation. But I think when a person has a clearer mind, they make less mistakes, and they're probably apt to err on the positive. So, you know, wouldn't it be nice if we were talking about, ideally, a situation where one of these young men or women become a general and they're big decision makers, and it comes down to doing that -- [make?] a decision to -- is this war -- is it -- are there other alternatives? That clear mind would make the very best decision that that person could possibly make to benefit the most people around them. Of course, that's the hope of every time, so -- but there's no -- I think when people begin to meditate, the hope is -- I had one of my -- so, one of the guys who's a soldier now, he said, "I want you to teach all 19 of my platoon, because we're going to be more in touch with each other, and we're going to be more effective." And, you know, the hope is someday there will not be any wars. How -- you're talking about ethical with regard to during a war, ethical with regard to preventing war, or in what regard are you thinking about? SY: All of the above. DZ: I see. SY: All of the above. I mean, so, yes, so ethical in terms of preventing a war, if it could be prevented. But also, I'm just thinking about -- you know, we've had some unfortunate situations in the past decade of -- you know, that are coming to light more and more, like soldiers -- you know, I mean, I think of Abu Ghraib. I think of other situations like that, and I wonder if a practice like this could help a soldier in a sort of context like that. Be, like, "Yeah, I'm not doing that." DZ: Right. SY: Or, "I'm going to blow the whistle on that." Or, "That doesn't" -- do you know what I'm saying? DZ: Yeah, yeah, OK. That's a good direction. One of the things that I would submit that -- I don't have evidence in every single case, but I would submit that those types of decisions are made from a stressed mind. And same thing with crime. I mean, look at the example in prison. When these guys are doing that, none of them -- they rarely if ever got written up for any violations. And it's not because those rules were not there at all, they didn't understand the rules. It was because their reasoning was influenced by the amount of stress that they had. So, I would guess that when -- the people who did that in Abu Ghraib, and it wasn't every single one of them -- made that decision. That's not a relaxed place. That's an incredibly stressed place. And I would guess that those decisions come from stressed minds. So, I think that what could happen -- if I had the magic wand, I would teach every one of those guys. And, you know, there would be a difference in the -- a physiological change. And again, it sounds very ideal. But break out the EEG machine. And that doesn't measure left-wing granola conspiracies. That measures how the human brain functions in each individual. And when done correctly, there is a positive effect. And I would say that would be where the influence would go. And I see the same thing with, you know, stressed cops, stressed whatever. When I was on the street as a probation officer and we'd chasing the bad guys, I'd come home and there'd be all sorts of stress, of course. But I would meditate, and then I wouldn't bring that stress into my house, you know? And I think that that's the hope. So, I think it's a tool that is -- needs to be looked at, because scientifically it's proven. So, I do think it would have an influence in that regard. Do I think it would have been perfect and no violation? I'm not saying that. I'm saying does it make a difference if they would do it? I think it would increase the chances of positive behavior by a long shot. That's my opinion, absolutely. And so, if you look at that and you look at the idea of where wars come from -- I mean, people making decisions to go to war -- I don't think that's a relaxed nervous system. SY: No, and people that -- DZ: On either side. SY: Right. When people feel like caged animals, they act like caged animals, right? DZ: They're going to lash out, I would guess. I mean, in some cases. And rare -- and bless the guy who doesn't or the woman who doesn't, but it's rare. But I think that -- you know, the same thing -- well, anyway, so that's my opinion on that one. 20 SY: So, one last question -- DZ: Sure. SY: -- because I know I'm getting tired, mostly because these fluorescent lights are awful. Do you have this (inaudible) [01:09:52] (laughs) DZ: They're terrible, aren't they? SY: They're just the worst. DZ: Bam. SY: Ah, thank you! DZ: See? SY: Feel much better. DZ: See, now we're relaxed. SY: Look at that. DZ: We're roaming out. SY: Look at that. DZ: Come on. SY: Things changed. DZ: I mean, come on, hello. SY: Woo! It was, like, my eyes -- DZ: (laughs) Bzzz! SY: -- were like dilating in and out. (laughter) And I was, like, am I here? What's going on? DZ: Who am I? What am I? SY: So yeah. So, actually, I was talking to Sarah Henrich before and I was like, "What do you want to ask Dave Zobeck? What do you want to know?" And she said, "What's your big picture vision?" You could – if you were running the show, you were, you know, I don't know, leader of the world, right? What would you do in terms of TM? DZ: Of the world or for Norwich? The world -- SY: Or of Norwich or -- DZ: Well, here's the deal. I think -- what I think I would do -- I mean, in the world sense at it boils down to Norwich as well. I think you need to get it in the education system. I think this needs to be a class that's offered for credit, that this is -- that you can do maybe some measurements before you get in the class, and at the end of the semester, after X amount of meditations, you can do that. And I think every class would begin with meditation and then follow with some knowledge about development of consciousness, changes in brains, that -- some real scientific kinds of things. And that should be a part of every person's curriculum. I think it belongs in the curriculum. I think this tool belongs with civilians, it belongs to Corps people, it belongs to administrators -- and I have taught a number of administrators here that swear by it. So, if it works, let's do it. So, we have to have this type of knowledge of other subject matters. And I've taught that. I've taught sociology and psychology and that sort of thing and it was -- it's marvelous. You have to have that. It's a good, good bit of information. But the knowledge of the self is so powerful and timeless. These books are outdated five years after I teach the subject matter. Development of consciousness and going within never is outdated as long as you're alive. And that is eternal knowledge. And that's the difference in my satisfaction of teaching TM and teaching these other subjects. I love teaching. When I teach someone how to go and experience and that -- to find this place in their own nervous system -- and then, when they're finished, they feel better and their affect is more positive 21 on other people, because it's good to be around people that are very positive. And they're going to be the decision makers of the future. It's way too common-sensical to do. It makes sense, and there's no -- I don't understand a reason not to. And so, that's what I think the ideal situation -- there are school systems in California, entire school systems that use it. They call it quiet time. They start their day -- the entire school, with the teachers -- they have a bell that rings over the PA system. They start their day with 10 minutes of meditation, they go about their business. At the end, at three o'clock when they're finished, the entire school system sits down, including the teachers. They do 10 minutes of meditation. No violence in the hall, no afterschool violence. They've saved San Francisco millions of dollars -- SY: Of course it's San Francisco. DZ: -- because of shootings and so on and so forth. And the kids are progressing for the first time through middle school, high school, and they're going on to college. The data is there. There's no -- there's nothing -- and they're still Protestants, they're still Jews, they're still Catholics, they're -- they haven't changed. They're still meat eaters. They're citizens that understand how they can contribute better as a citizen to their country, to their city, their community when they're using more of their full potential. This is the tool, and it's proven. And I think it -- you know, move the obstacles out of the way, get to what works. And the sooner we do that, I think we can see results all over the place. Even in cities where there are crime rates and there's X amount of people who are doing TM, there's a difference in the crime level. So, you know, I think it's a tool. So, I think, to answer, you know, that question is -- very directly is put it in the school system. Without a doubt, it should be taught like any other subject matter. The knowledge of self is as important as the knowledge of other topics. And so, I would recommend that. And I'm hoping, eventually down the road at Norwich, it does get in the curriculum somehow, some way, you know? SY: Actually, when I was teaching middle school, we had something -- it wasn't TM, but it was sort of a mindfulness chunk of the week. DZ: Yeah. SY: It was -- it didn't quite work, I think because it was, like, a group activity, right? It wasn't something that, like -- I think with middle school girls in particular -- it was an all-girls school -- they need to close their eyes to, like, step out of the social context in order to be able to access themselves. But when there were -- it was more sort of, like, movement based and they could still see each other, they, like, weren't able to get rid of their self-consciousness. DZ: And to go inside. SY: And to go inside, yeah. DZ: Well, you know, every technique has their own benefits, and I'm not going to knock that. But this is a -- again, if you're going to anyone -- any institution's going to invest money, go to something that's proven. I mean, 600 studies later, and no one's fighting that they're bad studies. There's not one. SY: Do you think that if you hadn't -- if that Marine hadn't come and spoken at that -- at your Air Force base that you would have discovered TM? Or do you think your life would have taken another trajectory? DZ: I think probably -- I think people are on a path to probably discover what they discover. He was just the -- he was the person who -- like, I would -- with some others that just was 22 -- delivered the package that day that I had asked for in some way, shape, or form. I was always looking -- SY: And you were ready for it. DZ: Yeah, I -- and in kind of, like, that Chinese thing when the student is ready, the teacher appears. SY: Right, right, right, you're -- DZ: And I think I was -- we were doing other kinds of things and that came along, and that was just -- that was another thing. But it was the coup de grace. I mean, it made my exercise better, you know, my sleep better and my studies better. So, I saw the benefit immediately, and there's no reason to stop, so I haven't. And so far, there's some tremendous results here at Norwich, and the students like it. And, you know, there's some support. And it'll go as long as it's supposed to, you know? So -- SY: It also seems like, at Norwich, it's also to some degree changed the culture between the cadre and the rooks, right? And I know that people talked about less yelling and, like, a sort of, like, different relationship between -- a kinder relationship, potentially. DZ: Well, the thing is, the first two years when we had the group study that was done at Alumni Hall, we had one platoon that was, you know, taught, and their cadre. And they would meditate together for the first two years. Different platoons, of course. And then we had the control group that didn't learn and then finally learned in the spring when they got recognized. So, we had that -- so, in that specific platoon, they didn't need to yell because these men and women, young men and women, were alert enough the first time around. And they, you know, were less stressed, and they could respond right away. So then, the cadre didn't have to yell, because they got it right the first time. And I know the cadre personally, and they yelled. I mean, it's part of the culture. But it was really good. Now the group is different, because it's opened up to the general population. So, some of the rooks are meditating and they're meditating in the room, but their cadre don't and their other roommate doesn't. Or it's a smattering of -- you know, I taught 116 people last semester, and not all of them were rooks. So, there's still the culture of yelling and screaming, of course. But I think, you know, we've opened it up to the public this time around. But in that regard, when you have everybody with a clearer mind and you have a group of people with a clear mind -- in fact, they sit down and get a clear mind before they start their day and go forward. TM is a preparation for activity. With a clear mind, your activity's going to be more efficient. It's real simple. So, that's how it -- work, and I think Norwich is on the cutting edge of all of this, because they're the first academy to move forward with all this. SY: It's pretty exciting. DZ: It is. I think it's great. SY: It really is. DZ: Yeah. SY: So, OK, any last thoughts? DZ: No, I think it's good. SY: I still want to know why you joined the Air Force. DZ: Oh, well, you know, I mean, my two brothers, older brothers, were in the Air Force. We grew up in Colorado. The Air Force Academy is there. We were always fans of the football team, and we had visited the academy. We were all Air Force guys. And they did it, and I just followed suit. And, you know, it was during the war and I just thought, 23 you know, was a good time to serve. And I joined and -- certainly didn't go to Vietnam. I was a Vietnam era veteran, but I just thought it was a good thing to do. I liked it, and I didn't make a career out of it. I had -- opportunity to go to officer's school, and thought I could progress faster doing studies on my own. And, in fact, that was the case. But the Air Force changed my life. I mean, it got me out of the small town, and I saw the world. And when I lived in Europe, I visited all sorts of different countries, and visited my family in Yugoslavia. I would never have done that without the Air Force. So, I am deeply grateful for that experience. It was -- it's a life -- it was a life-changing situation. Became a TM teacher, taught -- you know, learned another language. So, very, very grateful, the opportunity that was presented, and then got my education -- I mean, finished my education when I got back with the GI Bill and bought a house. And there's so many things. So, it fit, you know? And I really didn't have the brains to figure that out, what I was going to do when I got in. I just said, hey, I'm going to do this and see what happens. SY: You were, what, 18? DZ: I was 20. SY: Twenty. DZ: Yeah, yeah, so -- SY: Yeah. DZ: -- but it was beautiful, I -- so, it was good situation. Very grateful. SY: And you liked the physical challenge, too, right? DZ: I liked it. And the Air Force isn't, certainly, as physically -- challenge as, like, the Marine Corps or the Army. And my Marine friends and my Army soldier friends all agree. SY: I heard (laughter) the joke the other day that -- of the Chair Force. DZ: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. SY: That was the joke that I heard, yeah. (laughs) DZ: But, you know, I take it in all good humor. SY: Yeah. DZ: And I admire them and am very grateful for all their service as well. So, it just -- we're -- I like to be part of the team. And being part of Norwich team and being accepted here and being part of the culture is really good. But, you know, in the beginning, it was very much, you know, weird and strange and odd, which I can understand. I understand that. But once we start looking at the science and the practical application and who I was and -- I wasn't into some of the strange things that are stereotypically associated -- SY: Well, again, you're this bridge. DZ: Yeah, yeah. SY: You're this, like -- DZ: Yeah. SY: -- amalgam that works, right? (laughter) Bringing meditation into these, like, more sort of, like, macho worlds -- DZ: Yeah, yeah. SY: -- like a prison or like the military or -- DZ: And, you know, what I find is that, you know, these young men and women -- Norwich -- the students here are just -- they absolutely amaze me. I mean, at the end of the sentence, they call me sir as opposed to other things that I was called when I worked in the criminal justice system, the combinations of family and different kinds of things were just very 24 creative. (laughter) But they are so motivated, and to add this tool to their -- already their intensity is really nice, because it's like a tune-up twice a day. So, it's going to make them even more effective. So, I say, as a decision-maker, when you become an officer, if that were my son or daughter, I would hope to goodness that you would have a clear mind when you're making decisions when lives are at stake. And clear minds make less mistakes. And your troops -- and you may not even have to go to war. You could be that formidable, that we don't want you as an opponent. We can -- let's have this chat. And so, who knows down the road? But we'll see. Greater minds than mind will make those decisions. But my biggest -- my hope is that they can get it in the curriculum and get it going and have somebody do that. And there's a few young people here who are interested in becoming teachers, and that would be really magnificent. There's a staff member who's interested in becoming a teacher. I would like that. It would be organic in nature, and then I could go onto whatever else I'm supposed to do and -- (laughter) SY: Right, whatever happens to be next. DZ: That's right. SY: Right? DZ: That's right. SY: And -- END OF AUDIO FILE

Frank Yannacone, July 22, 2013 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Frank Yannacone. The interview was conducted on July 22, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Frank discusses his memories of life on 25th Street. ; 75p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Frank Yannacone Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 22 July 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Frank Yannacone Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 22 July 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Yannacone, Frank, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 22 July 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Frank Yannacone July 22, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Frank Yannacone. The interview was conducted on July 22, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Frank discusses his memories of life on 25th Street. LR: Okay it's July 22, 2013. We are in the home of Mr. Frank Yannacone doing an oral history about 25th street and his memories of the buildings and the his memories of the life on that street. So Mr. Yannacone thank you so much for letting us be in your home today. I'm sorry, I'm Lorrie Rands doing the interview, Melissa Johnson is here with me as well as your daughter in law. FY: Marva LR: Marva? FY: Well Yannacone LR: Yannacone, well of course. I told you when I walked in my blonde is showing. MY: That's okay LR: I'm having my day. So Mr. Yannacone I would love for you just to start—go ahead and start at the Broom Hotel and make your way up and down the street. FY: Okay the Broom Hotel. I remember it in the 1950s, it was in kind of a state of disrepair. When it was built it was supposed to have been the best between Denver and San Francisco—of course I heard the same claim for the Hotel Utah when that was built. But anyhow going west was, as I recall, Ross and Jack's Restaurant, which at that time it had a nice art deco façade and a lot of neon. The story was that Ross and Jack had a café and they got into some 1 disagreement so they put a wall down the middle and had Ross's Café and Jack's Café. It went on like that for many years and then they decided maybe that was pretty stupid so they took the wall out and put the nice façade and it was Ross and Jack's Café instead of Ross's Café and Jack's Café. Early history says that Jack Dempsey washed dishes there before he became a big time boxer. I just heard that, I don't know. Next I believe was Morris Men Shop, which was a men's Habersasher, but he was also a clearing house for Basque sheep herders. They'd come in from Elko, check—if they needed a job or looking for someone or mail drop, he was the clearing house for the Basques. Next I think that little bar on Kiesel and across the street where the Federal Building is now, on Kiesel, there was a little café, little diner. Next was Hemingway and Moser had a cigar factory there at least for a while. I can remember standing in the street watching them roll cigars and their brand had something to do with a blue whale or a blue point or something nautical. Next was Ogden Blue, a new business, just a little hole in the wall and now what, 60 years later they're still around and thriving I guess. There are a lot of assorted shops, restaurants, bars, I don't remember the rest of the block, but I remember a Hotel which was on Grant, still there. Next door was the Friendly Tavern, and Saturday nights my wife and I would go to hear the Salvation Army band play about 7:00 every Saturday night. Had a little brass band, I don't know 5/6 members and Sally's would go hit all the bars with their tambourines, collecting change. Starting in that block you had a lot of little restaurants and bars, a lot of Japanese. The whore houses were upstairs still 2 operating. I guess they operated until I don't know, close to 1960 and they— when they closed them up of course all that upstairs room turned into housing in the door to the upstairs started appearing little notices that upstairs was a private dwelling, no trespassing and as I recall there was a shooting down there. Some drunk insisted that it was a whore house and wouldn't take no for an answer and I think he got gunned down, that's my memory. I can't say for certainty, but for some reason it's in my mind. There was a little Japanese restaurant, little ma and pa place. Old wooden booths, hole in the wall, dark—somebody took us there and it had the best damn shrimp, even better than the Utah Noodle, they were great. All that block was mixed housing, bars, stores, shops, and whore houses. Down on the Lincoln end about the 3rd place from the corner there was a grocery store and a hotel upstairs. The name Howard comes into mind and as I mentioned last week I never talked to the guy, but I bought a Medal D'oro which is an Italian espresso coffee. He had it; he also had Luzianne coffee which was a chicory Cajun coffee and Sorgaum syrup. The only thing I can figure, I never asked, but the only thing that I can figure is the black population, a lot of them working on the railroad and they were on Wall Avenue. LR: Was the black population at this time allowed to come into the store or was it after? FY: Now that store, 25th street was different see, kind of. LR: I know the North side was for the whites and the south side was for the Negro population. 3 FY: No, no, no, no, no. The citizens, the residents lived on Wall, close to the railroad. Then they started moving up to Lincoln, but they were segregated. That was our ghetto misnomer of course cause I don't know where that started. A ghetto was a walled area in Europe and old Europe. Somehow or other now—we used to call them slums or something. Now they're ghettos, I don't know. Anyhow, there were a lot of Winos I mean it was kind of like skid row, 25th street. After they closed the whore houses it really went downhill. It was a pretty reasonable place, you never went out on a Saturday night without—you went to the Star Noodle or the China Temple, that ended your evening. It was quite civilized. They had—I can't remember the hotel on the corner it's gone now on the northeast corner of Wall and 25th street. MJ: Was it the Healy? FY: Might have been. I remember when they tore it down, nobody then wanted to put in sprinklers or fix it or something and they tore it down. Next door was the China Temple and next door was the Depot Drug and they had a sign out, "prescription filled." It was a regular drug store and a lot of bars. There was a time, it was before my time when you could do anything on 25th street. You could do banking, you could transact business, you could eat, buy clothing and they had hotels of course because the railroad was right there. There were—I saw it in the paper just recently, the Kokomo Club doing some repairs and they found some old artifacts. Kokomo Club was going strong when I came to Ogden, and there's a bar probably been running for geez anyhow 70/75 years, maybe longer and still going. 4 MJ: Yeah we are going to be interviewing the owners of it. FY: There was another one called I think Pagano's. Well anyhow we'll go across the street. That corner building is still there. It was a stone building and next to it were some small shops including a souvenir shop, had a big sign up, one cent postcards. You probably can remember that. That sign was there when postcards were a nickel or more. MJ: Now is this off of Wall down on that end? FY: We're coming back from Wall now. We're now on that big stone building, I don't know I don't remember what it was, could've been a bank when it was built, but it's still there. Then coming up, there were frame buildings, shops, big front windows painted red as I recall many of them, especially that one with the one cent postcards. You've got a picture somewhere I'm sure of it. MJ: That block right there, just off of Wall, we have very few pictures of. I think that first building is the Murphy Block and we've been talking to the family that owned that building, trying to get photos. FY: Well there's a picture in what did I tell ya? UtahHikes.com. Old Ogden, there's a picture from the terminal and it was taken after the hotel was torn down. But the building on the other side is still there and I imagine if you look close with a glass you can see that sign out there with the one cent. Then you came to the what did I say the name was? That hotel? LR: The Broom? No. FY: Where is that book? 5 MJ: Oh the Royal Hotel? FY: Royal! That was Weeklys'. That was where the black train people stayed. That was all segregated you know, until 64. It was the Royal Hotel and downstairs was the bar, the Porter's and Waiter's Club, which was a nightclub for all the blacks and stories about big bands coming and that's where Annabelle married Weekly. Then after he died she opened Annabelle's, which was a fried chicken place. I wasn't into fried chicken, my wife was, but I could eat her chicken and I told you the story why I could eat her chicken. She said it was cooked by Mexicans in lard, and I checked, all her cooks were Mexican and they had big, cast iron skillets and Dutch ovens and you could smell the lard if you got close to the pass out window. Then last I heard about her, she took a degree in sociology and was working for the state. Now there's a guy around town and he comes here occasionally, he's 93 years old and he's a musician and his name is Joe… MJ: Joe McQueen? FY: Eastman? No Joe, MJ: Joe McQueen? FY: McQueen. MJ: The saxophone player. FY: Yeah, he used to play there. I understand he still—he's 93 years old and he still comes up here and takes people shopping and runs errands and stuff. I never had the chance to meet him yet, but I understand he and Annabelle were coming 6 back from Wendover and he was driving, had a wreck somewhere west of Tooele and she got killed. MJ: Yeah that was— FY: Can't be too many years ago. MJ: Four years ago? Five? LR: I thought it was a while ago. MJ: No it wasn't all that long ago. MY: Yeah, I remember something about that. FY: It was fairly recent, fairly recent. MJ: It was shortly after the document that Isaac Goeckeritz did. He filmed both Joe McQueen and Annabelle and it was about a year or so after that. FY: Now, story is she was the highest price call girl in Ogden. MJ: Oh really? FY: That was the story, she was a looker. When she was young, I mean she was a looker. Now we're talking about nice—a date, civility of 25th street. We had the whore houses all the doctors were in the First Security Bank building, maybe a few across at the Eccles building, but once a month those girls would go for their physical. I knew someone who worked at one of the dress shops and there were several of them in that block from 25th to 24th. There was Clifton's, they're still around. There was Hughes, I think Mode O' Day or something. Anyhow, the girls liked when the, I mean the clerks liked when the girls went for their physicals 7 because they shopped on the way home and spent money. These sales clerks worked on a base plus commission so they were happy to see them. The ladies they walked down the street you know it was civilized; you could go down and not worry about getting shot up or something. After they closed up these places then it got tough. That's when it became skid row. There were winos and drunks, it was tough. That's what happened to that Howard Hotel or grocery store or whatever it was. It was a yellow brick building. Some wino got hallucinations one night and he was cold and lit a fire under the sink and burned the whole damn place down. Yeah there were panhandlers, it was tough. The only time you went there, you went to the China Temple or the Star Noodle. MY: That was it. FY: Okay then we get up on that corner. There was a stack yard. A stack yard's an electrical place where they got transformers and I think that's still there, I'm not sure. MJ: I'm not sure either. FY: On Lincoln, Lincoln and Wall, or Lincoln and 25th. LR: I thought that was the building, wasn't that where Rose Davies building was? FY: No that's on the other side. We're still between Wall and Lincoln. LR: Hmm I thought we were on Lincoln now. MJ: So right on the corner there of Lincoln? 8 FY: There was I think a stack yard. Maybe on the wrong block, but it's a stack yard. I call it a stack yard, it's a place where the power company has transformers and wires coming in and going out. A substation I guess they call them. LR: There's one I seem to recall when we were at that Karen's Café. There was something behind it that reminded me of a substation so maybe that's it. FY: Well see I haven't been down that part of town—I've been here a year and haven't been down there. I figure it's not interesting anymore. LR: It actually is, it might be worth your while to go down and look at it again. FY: Well I hear they got a lot of overpriced restaurants. MJ: Yeah there's a few of those. FY: A lot of glitz and stuff like that and I don't walk well. It's of no historical interest to me anymore. Okay let's cross the street and go to El Boracho. MY: My class wanted to have our picture taken in front of it, but the nuns at St. Joseph's High School didn't think that would be good. LR: I can't imagine why. FY: Now across the street where the El Boracho is now I understand there was a restaurant called Patricia's or something or Poncho's, Mexican, Mexican place. My sister was over visiting from Cheyenne and she was going to take the bus back. I don't remember, hell I think that was the only—by then that was the only way to go back. I think the trains had quit running. Anyhow she wanted some authentic Mexican food and we took her in there. The food was delicious and I 9 don't think she enjoyed a bite because she was worried about if it was safe to be in there. MY: I could see Betty doing that. FY: Anyhow, the Rose Rooms were on top of El Boracho and I worked with a young fellow at the packing house. There was a garage across Ogden Avenue from the Hotel Ben Lomond and it was a parking garage, typical downtown parking garage that they had in those days. Hotel guests parked their cars there and business people, dropped their cars off for oil changes, there was no 15 minute Jiffy Lube back then. Anyhow he had a part time job while he was in high school and Rose had a big four door Sedan, I can't remember. He described, would tell us about it and she'd call—she'd want her car to go for a drive. He would have to deliver it, he was the gopher. He'd park the car and then he'd go upstairs and have to go back in the kitchen to give her the keys and usually he said some of the girls were in there having coffee and talking. It was afternoon, slow time of day I guess and he can remember hustling them. He could also remember they'd laugh at him you know, just a kid. He kept talking about it when he was older and I guess hey that was an experience. I worked with another guy whose aunt and uncle owned the Montana Hotel, next door which was a three story building. He spent a summer or so with them one time. He would talk about in the summer he'd go up on the third floor up on the roof and look over at the second floor roof next door and watch the girls sunbathing. Hey that's pretty thrilling stuff for high school kids I tell ya. MY: They didn't have the internet. 10 FY: Then it came up the street there to the Star Noodle. Now the Star Noodle—that fellow I don't remember his name, but I used to know it. He built Dai Enkotai out there on Highway 89, out in South Ogden. Dai Enkotai, Wayside Inn is the translation. When he built that there was no water up there on that part of the bench. 500 bucks would buy you an acre of land—I even had 500 bucks. He would go up there with his pickup loaded with 50 gallon drums and hand water all that planting he did. Last I saw it I was out there geez I don't know, 20/30 years ago had dinner there and everything has mature and I don't know if you've ever been in. It's a Japanese Tea House, you know the nice roof and the shoji doors, shoji doors you know are the wood and parchment, beautiful place. Anyhow he's planted all that stuff, everyone thought he was nuts. Then they built I think a Rockport dam and suddenly there was water, you couldn't buy 500 dollar an acre anymore. The place started booming. Anyhow I understand that sign is somewhere around. MJ: The Star Noodle? Yeah, the last I heard about it the city is holding onto it because they want it preserved and they want it actually put back up on the building as kind of a historic piece. FY: I'll tell you how that works. Up in Rexburg there was a theatre built in 1932 or 3. It was art deco. A big neon sign outside, and the company who owned that decided to abandon it and they built these stadium theatres. Somehow the city caught wind of it, they were dismantling everything, and the city was able to buy it. The stipulation, you can't show movies in there. Anyhow it took 10 or 15 years—we had an enlightened councilman up there. There was a problem with parking on 11 the main street and he says instead of the city spending money trying to restore that, let's tear it down and build a parking lot. Typical American thinking, it's 50 years old, get rid of it. Anyhow between the college, which did a lot of the engineering and design work free and a lot of student help and volunteers, they restored that building and they rebuilt the marquee. All neon and arrows and beautiful things. The only difference now instead of posting letters it's digital. It's on all day and most of the night, well until midnight every day. They post the weather and civic happenings and announcements like that, beautiful. Could've been lost you know? LR: So can you see them doing that with the Star Noodle, with that property? FY: I can see them with the sign yeah and the façade. MJ: I think that's the goal. Right now the building is empty and the owner is—the city has told him that he has to restore it. He can't tear it down, he has to restore it so he's working on that and right now the city is holding onto the sign for safe keeping so it will get restored. FY: See when they built the—in Salt Lake City, I can't remember, what was the shopping mall they built right across from the temple? LR: Crosswords, Crosswords Mall. MJ: Yeah FY: Then they went across the street and rebuilt the ZCMI block. That façade is the original, the old cast iron and they've done that in a lot of places. The inside, god only know what it is, but the outside is still there. Yeah they can do that with the 12 Star Noodle. Then up from that there were some assorted businesses, bars, I can't remember until you hit the Greyhound Terminal and I remember when they built that. I don't know what was there, but I remember when they built that. I think, and I'm not sure there, because reminds me of an art deco building, you know with that curved front. I can't be sure and next door was the big old home, the Elks Lodge. See the bakery, the bakery bought that—now if you're on Lincoln Avenue going south from El Boracho there was a red brick two story apartment building there. Had 6 or 8 apartments in there and I knew a guy, he was a colored fellow, worked with him. Lacey Jones and I can't remember his wife's name, but she was quite a character. Anyhow Lacey lived there and I remember when he bought it, now that's part of the bakery property too. Had to be in the 70s, it was still there, an apartment house. MJ: The Elks Lodge you mean? FY: No behind El Boracho. Then of course you went up 25th street to the Ben Lomond and that corner office used to be a Union Pacific Ticket office, so you didn't have to go to the depot. In those days you had 64 trains a day come through Ogden, you could've gone anywhere. Then the numbnuts guys, typical, what did they do? They went in and tore down all that cast iron canopies except for one. Filled in the subway, now they want to restore it and got no money. It was there! LR: So you're not an Ogden native? FY: No I came here in 1950. 13 LR: You're originally from? FY: Pennsylvania. LR: What brought you to Ogden, your job? FY: Work, yeah. I came out to school, married and then came to work for Swift. I worked there until they closed. There's another—the viaduct, used to walk across the viaduct, it was old and wooden. See you people wouldn't remember it because they rebuilt it before you were probably even alive. MY: It seems like there wasn't the one that's there now that I remember. FY: Well then you remember the old one. MY: I remember the old one. FY: You're older than these gals, yeah. It was iron with framed deco. It was 2 by, I don't know, 2 inch lumber on edge with black top on it. You walked up and then when you got across the yard before you hit the river there was a stairway, and I walked it many times like all other people to go to work. You'd walk down and it'd dump you off right there where there was a ramp that went down and the stairs took you down under the ramp right there to the packing house. West Ogden was Bertagnoli's Motel, Mountain View Motel, I think it was Bertagnoli. Used to be a motel, course we had stock shows and stock yards and Ogden was a booming town. Anyhow I noticed it's now an apartment, Mountain View apartments, but its story was he made his money as a bootlegger and then built the motel. They had the big stock shows, my father-in-law worked for, as a young fellow, he worked for Covey of Covey Bagley and Dayton, sheep people, 14 and the old man he's the one that built Little American over by Granger, I met him. My father-in-law came down from Logan to go to the stock show and we went down there one time and it's in November, cold weather you know. I don't know if you've ever been to a stock show, but they have the pavilion and they give parts of it to different exhibitors and they use straw or hay to kind of fence it off. There's no heat and we went down and that's the year I won a little leather suitcase from Read Brothers, when they were still on 24th street in the leather business. We had had a judging contest and they called me at home, you know you went in and gave your name and phone number. They called says you won the prize for the judging and I had that suitcase for years. Then somebody spilled something in it and I gave it to the DI. I wish I hadn't cause it had their plate on it you know. Anyhow we're walking down through there and you can see they all have big banners these places and you could see Covey Bagley and Dayton Herefords. We're walking down the aisle and my father-in-law says, "My god there's Anson," or Anselm, Ansom, A-N- I think S-C-L-M, or A-N-S-C-M, anyhow that was his name, Covey. Here's this old guy in a black overcoat and gray hair sitting on a bale of hay and we walked up to him and he got up and he says, "By god Tommy how the hell are you?" It had to have been WWI when he quit so it had to be like 40 or 50 years and he still remembered him. I thought that was just great. There's a guy see I wished I had recorded, there were real tape recorders when he was living. After his wife died he moved in with his son and he would tell stories about herding sheep out of Cokeville, Wyoming. There were so many 15 sheep and he said there were so many sage hens and in the spring when they started moving the sheep the ground would be yellow from sage hen eggs that the sheep trampled. Now you know they're endangered. MY: I've never heard of a sage hen. FY: Sage hen is a quail, some kind of a quail. There's a half a dozen kind of them. MY: They're cute FY: Anyhow you went up 25th street and I don't remember what was there before they built the Ramada Inn, but the Ramada Inn. God that had to be around 1970. MY: Yeah I'm trying to think what was there and I can't remember either. The church, I'd go to the church there FY: Then across the street was a church and they sold it and it was the American Legion Hall for many years. I don't know what it is now. MY: It used to be Kamikaze's. MJ: Yeah, it still is. FY: Oh, a club? MY: It's a bar. MJ: Yeah. MY: Then a Presbyterian church. FY: Then across the street you had Larkin's Mortuary and wasn't that the street where they had the White, the dance hall? 16 MY: That was on 25th and Adams. LR: White City. FY: White City, yeah. MY: Cool place, I remember. FY: Hell that was a big dance hall. It had a roof like the Salt Lake Tabernacle. Big dance hall and they tore that down. You had the Berthana and the White City LR: They were happening spots back in the day. MY: We used to roller-skate at the Berthana up into the 70s. LR: They were happening spots back in the day. They were the place to go. FY: They were dance halls. The Berthana then became a roller rink, but that White City was a dance hall. Yeah it had live music and bands and everybody danced and then you came down the hill. First was Jimmie's Floral, later years you had a little restaurant there called the Canton Low, next to it was a Beauty Shop Supply and next was—Kathy Faunce had a dress top shop, what the hell did she call that? Some fancy name, and then on the corner was Farr's Jewelry. The Canton on the base, on the first floor of the old Masonic Temple on, across from the courthouse. On the main floor was a Chinese restaurant called the Canton. The guy that owned that, and I think Rose who owned half of the Canton Low a little later, she was maybe his wife or his partner. Anyhow it was a big Chinese restaurant and he was going home one night and on the corner there of Adams and 25th there was a wreck, he got hit or whatever. No seatbelts in those days, he ran his car into the curb in front of St. Joe's church, got thrown 17 out, hit his head on the curb and got killed. That was the end of the Canton Café, now I don't recall the sequence of when the Canton closed and the other little place opened, but you had the Ben Lomond Hotel and Royal Shoe Store was next door. Guy sold Red Wings. I bought a pair, 5 bucks. LR: A pair of Red Wings for 5 bucks. FY: 6 inch shoes made in the USA of course, and a guy named Saccamano was his name. Oh and then you had the Orpheum, the Orpheum theater. You know how these theatres had long entries and businesses. Dokas's Greek Restaurant, it was just a lunch counter. It wasn't fancy, but it was Dokas's restaurant and candy store, hand dipped chocolates. You could get a blue plate lunch in there for like 45 cents or something. Then they moved down on Grant, somewhere between I think 24th and 23rd and they still had the candy. They were a wholesaler for tobacco and cigarettes and sundress. God that was a heyday. LR: You mentioned last time about the Bamberger that ran up 25th street. FY: It's in that book, the Bamberger was the interurban. When I grew up they were called Interurban Railroads. They were trolley cars and they went 60/70 miles an hour and I mean they were electric trains, but they were actually high powered trolley cars. You had them between cities and the Bamberger, okay let's go back. Bamberger was the first—he was a Jewish business man. He was a governor I think the only Jewish governor in the state of Utah. He had this railroad between Ogden and Salt Lake, well he started it. He started Lagoon cause he got to Lagoon and they couldn't go further so he started Lagoon and he 18 made some money and then he was able to finish down into Salt Lake. Their terminal, they came in from Logan. I think that was the U & I Railroad. Those railroads would go right down the main street and you could've gone from Franklin to Ogden to Salt Lake, I don't recall past that. They came in on Lincoln, had railroad tracks on Lincoln cause Becker's Brewery was on Lincoln about 21st street. The old Becker Mansion was across on the east side of Lincoln and beautiful old building with columns, sure you got pictures. I was disappointed after coming back after 25 years. Utah still has that 3.2 law. Becker was making 3.2 beer, but he had a place up in Evanston called the Uintah Club beer where he made full strength beer. Every brewery has a bar, bar room. I don't remember what year it was, but they put radios in the switch engines. Now Ogden was big you know, big yards and lots of traffic. Lots of switch engines and they put in radios and they just almost had a riot with the railroad employees because at any given time just about you could find a switch engine parked by the brewery. They'd take turns going up there to have a cool beer, free on the house of course. Then they'd put radios and that kind of put the kibosh, cause they couldn't hide out anymore. The Bamberger came in, you could—see one story leads to another. My wife during the war lived in Logan and her mother played the piano. Rachel could play the piano from 9 years old she was playing in dance bands, bought her own piano. Well in Brigham City at Bushnell Hospital they used to take—my wife and her mother would take the train, the Bamberger over the mountain to Brigham City. She'd entertain, my wife would sing and they'd entertain these guys who 19 were all shot up and god only knows. Anyhow you could take the train all the way to Salt Lake and when it came to Ogden the depot was behind the old post office, 24th street. You'd go north, Pete Vlahos bought that for his office, but then next there was a knitting mill there. Was it Ogden Knitting Mill? MY: Oh yeah. FY: Then the city bought that, the city school district bought that a part of that building or there's a space there. That was the terminal for the Bamberger. They'd come down Lincoln and swing in and unload and then start out. You had a Y right there on Lincoln just north of 24th street. They'd come in then back out and go to Salt Lake. They stayed on Lincoln until St. Joe's School was what? 28th? 29th? MY: Between 27th and 28th on Lincoln. FY: Now did the trolley run past St. Joes? MY: I'm trying to think if there were tracks down that way and I don't think there were. FY: Anyway somewhere down there they cut across, the cut across the Weber River where you take the 31st freeway. Somewhere in that freeway now is where they used to cross the thing and go down and ended up in Hill field. See most of that right away is under I-15, but that interchange on 31st by the freeway coming down from the airport, that was city dump. On the west side of the river was the city dump. MY: Cause there wasn't anything else out there. FY: No, nothing. Oh just sand hills and that was the city dump. 20 LR: So do you recall when the Bamberger stopped running? I wonder if that affected, if that was as big of an impact as when the trains stopped coming in. FY: Well no because see back, during WWII there was about 130 million people in this country. Now you got 330 million, not everybody had a telephone, not everybody had a car. Gas was 15 cents and a car was 500 bucks during the depression. Who the hell had 500 bucks? By the time the Bamberger quit freeways started, Eisenhower started that in the 50s and in the 60s you had pieces of it between here and Salt Lake. Transportation I don't think, was that big a problem because you had Trailways and you had Greyhound, but more people had cars in the 50s. Hell almost everybody had a car. See that puts a different light on it. When Bamberger started, that was in the depression days, public transportation had trolley cars in Ogden. My father-in-law drove a trolley car in Ogden and the yard was—I can remember when they started building houses in there. 27th or 28th above Adams under the hill there was about a half a block or maybe a little more was kind of flat. That was the yards for the trolley cars. They ran up and down Washington Boulevard and when I came to Ogden they had bus service, but there was a big strike. But they had buses running up and down Washington and I think they had one would go up to Harrison and another one would go to West Ogden. It was pretty rudimentary, but people used the bus. Hell I used the bus and Ogden then was like 40,000 people. You had—Wilson Lane was out in the country, but you had Pete's Café which is still there. You had I think taxi service then, but it was pretty limited. Then the trains quit see—I don't 21 know about 67 or 8—those railroads really went at it with a vengeance. Passenger service cost them money, they couldn't make money on people, service got bad. I'll tell you a little story about my mother. She liked taking the trains and she'd stop in Cheyenne to see my sister and then she'd take the train over to see me and then she had an old childhood chum living in California, Colusa, California. She would call from my house to talk to this lady and set up. They'd pick up my mother in Sacramento and she would ride the bus. She liked the bus cause it took you downtown and she liked the trains cause you went into town and you saw the backyards. I enjoyed the trains too for that reason. Anyhow my sister, I had a niece that died and she was nine. The only way my mother could get to the funeral from Pennsylvania to Cheyenne was fly. She was petrified, but she had to do it. After the funeral she came over and visited for a while and she said—now this was, god this had to be in early 60s I guess. Anyhow she said she was on the, at the airport, and she said people would take her by the arm and call her by name and say, "Now you come on, you stand here and if we can get you on this flight," she was flying stand by. She said, "Now you stand here and if there's a place on this plane you know we'll get you on there and if not we'll see about the next flight." She said everybody was so nice, they were friendly. She said every time somebody did that at the airport I thought about the conductors on the trains. "Are we on time," and they'd snarl at ya. 22 "When's the dining car open," and they'd snarl at ya. She started flying after that. She gave up on the railroad. I took a train in 1964 where I had to go through four cars to find a car where I could plug in an electric razor they were that decrepit. Plugged them in and nothing happened. LR: So it's not surprising that they just, it became— FY: I mean they were deliberately doing that. See of course what happened, coincidental with all that was the US Post Office started air mailing mail instead of using the railway mail cars. LR: That was one of the huge reasons why they stopped. FY: Well they had revenue see and the passengers they would put up with, but when the post office cut them out they figured hell these people are costing us money and they went after them. That mail was all sorted by hand and they ran regular runs. I left a message for Charles Trentelman, I didn't leave it in his voicemail because I got somebody at a gift shop. Got a voicemail at the gift shop at the depot and I said, "Tell Trentelman that there's a fellow working at the Ogden post office who started out as a railway mail clerk." So there's still some guy, and when I heard the guy said he's old he must be at least 70. Well yeah he would be. So the Bamberger I don't know when they quit, but they were probably losing money and glad they quit. LR: Something else you mentioned last time that I found fascinating was talking about drinking coffee with Marshall White. I can't remember the whole story anymore, but you talked about drinking coffee with Marshall White. 23 FY: Yeah he came to my house one day and we were visiting about something or other, I don't recall, but we had coffee. You know he was— LR: A decent fellow? FY: See we talked about, I told you about that story about being in the China Temple. LR: You said it was your one regret. FY: See in the context of time—at the time there was two of us. We had an early thing going at the packing house and this guy came in from Portland and I picked him up at the Ben Lomond and said, "Let's stop and have some breakfast." The only place open at 4:00 in the morning was the China Temple. We went in there and sat down and while we were waiting for our order these three colored fellows came in and sat down at the end of the counter, way down by the kitchen. The guy comes out and tells them we can't' serve you and they left. I didn't pay any attention and I told Lorrie my regret was that I didn't walk out, but at the time didn't think anything of it. It didn't take me, only like a couple hours or next day or something I got thinking, "Geez there I sit—some Chinese guy telling a black guy he can't serve him. MY: But it was the time. FY: You heard me talk about Lacey Jones you know, when your boy died who was there? Lacey MY: I have pictures of him holding Tommy. He came to—Tommy was probably a month old and I have— FY: What was her name? 24 MY: I know, ever since you said his name, Lacy and anyway, I have pictures of him in my living room holding my baby. Beautiful pictures. LR: When was this? MY: Oh, 1982. FY: My kids were raised—my wife, I'll tell you she had an occasion, I'm not going to go into much detail, but she had an occasion to be in a position where she was catering to the public. Couple of colored folks came in and sat down and my wife was—hey I can tell you she can attest to this—we're walking down Washington Boulevard and we're standing in front of Froerer Place on 26th for real estate, 26th and? MY: Washington. FY: Washington. I said, "Wait a minute I got to go in and talk to Fred about something," and when I come out she's visiting with some woman on the sidewalk. The lady left and I said, "Who was that?" She says, "I don't know." I could hear so I asked, "Well what was she telling you about her son-in-law or something?" She says, "I don't know, she just came up and started talking." Anyhow wife's very pleasant to these people and somebody said you're a nigger lover. She got the guy by the shoulder and threw him out. MY: I was surprised that's all she did. 25 FY: So see my kids were raised, we had no animus. That's why it bothered me later when I—hey that's, god that's 60 years ago nearly. LR: And it still bothers you? FY: And it bothers me. MY: I can see that. FY: See and then when I heard about Marshall White. They're chasing some kid, got out of reform school and they chased him into this house and the kid comes up out of the basement with a gun and shoots the guy right at the top of the stairs. MY: Well remember when the hi-fi shop thing all happened and you made Robert go pick Lacey up. LR: Now was that on 25th street? FY: No that was on? MY: About 23rd and Washington, but it was right next to Karamel Korn. My husband was working with his dad and this Lacey Jones we've been talking about, he worked there and because of the hi-fi shop thing and the blacks and stuff. Frank was afraid for Lacey because you know some people just— FY: What was her name? Camilia? Camilla? MY: I'm trying to think of Robert saying it. Lacey and. FY: She was quite the character. MY: They were great people. 26 FY: Well you know life, I look at it differently than when I was her age. When I was 18, a boy. MY: Well and there again I think it's the time. My dad grew up in the South. I was raised with a little different perspective, but I never understood why my dad was prejudice. I didn't get it. I'm like why? I don't get it. I still don't understand it, why? Just because somebody has different colored skin. I see it with my grandchildren. In fact my little grandson he'll be telling me about a friend or something and he'll say he's brown, but you know there's no ethnic type, he's black, he's Mexican, he's this. So is your mother when she's out in the sun. FY: We lived in Hawaii for a couple of years and favorite story, oh that picture there. I found your husband's face in there. MY: Oh did you find him? Cause he's the only little haole. FY: As a matter of fact we had Japanese neighbors. See this country is becoming like Hawaii, there's no majority. See even back when we were there whites were not a majority. Had some neighbor kids, my kids were like 7 or 8, 6 or 7, somewhere around there. They're watching a war movie on television and my wife told me this story. I don't remember what the movie was, but Robert can tell you. He's probably seen it a million times. Anyhow it was a Japanese soldier sneaking up on this American GI and one of the little Japanese neighbor boy says watch out for that Jap! That's become a family story because that's the way it was. The kids, my kids were raised and her kids I'm sure raised that's—but back 60 years ago it was different. 27 Now I went to school with black kids, back then we called them Negros or colored. I can remember I spent a summer—I was in New York 1945—I was in Time Square on VJ Day. I was in that mass of about a million people, never forget it. I used to take a train 2:00 in the morning through Harlem. I'd be the only white guy, but there was nobody on the train, only half a dozen people on the whole damn three car train. Going through Harlem never had any fears. I Went to school with folks from hell, all over. Now coming from the South I worked with a guy in Idaho, turned out good friends, he's dead now. Jimmy Mitchell was born in Nashville and I didn't find that out until several years after I knew him. I never heard the N word more than I did in Rexburg. In the first month I heard probably more than in my whole life before that. I told him I don't like it and he was good enough that he watched his tongue when he was around me and hopefully he improved on it with other people. He was born in Nashville, he came to Idaho as a boy, but his dad, for like all the time Jimmy was growing up until he got married, every summer they'd go back to Nashville. Second nature with him, like your dad. MY: It has to do with where you grow up. My mother grew up in Colorado. Her and her friend were the only white girls in their class, most of them were Mexican. So my mom was more open to you know, culture. FY: Pass that picture over LR: So moving on to a little more happy things, I was wondering if you had any more stories about 25th street you'd like to share? Cause I mean you've done a good job and you've been talking for almost two hours. 28 FY: I have? LR: I don't know if you realize that. FY: No, but I get wound up. See we've digressed. LR: And that's okay. So I was just wondering if you had any other stories or memories of 25th street you'd like to share? FY: Well I told you about my wife and the egg foo yung. LR: When she was pregnant? FY: Now those were the days when they made real egg foo yung, not this crap they're making now. It's like some kind of a mush. MY: I don't know what it is FY: Anyway I was telling Lorrie, many a morning at 1 or 2:00, the only place open, go to the China Temple. I'd take a sauce pan cause you didn't have takeout boxes like you do now. I'd go get egg foo yung. Well my kid was like I don't know a year old, just starting to talk, I don't know how old they are when they start. Anyhow I had some business at the Greyhound Depot where they had the bus. The buses used to have express and I had some business there and I parked and it was diagonal parking. She was there in the front seat with the kid and I said, "I'll be right out." When I come out she's laughing. Now she could laugh, she turned me the wrong way on a one way street once and a cop pulled me over MY: All she could do was laugh. 29 FY: All she could do. All I could say, "She told me to turn," that's another family story. She knows what's coming. Well anyhow I come out and she's laughing and I said, "What happened?" She said, "See that Chinese fellow going by?" "The Chinese guy?" "Yeah. Well when he went by he said dada." Anyhow now you've heard the story of my life maybe. I don't know about 25th street, spent many a night down there after partying I can tell you that. Sober up at the China Temple. LR: That seemed to be the, well it was always open so that was the spot. FY: Well I can tell you about 24th street. MJ: What was on 24th street? FY: Well I'll tell you about getting from 25th to 24th. On Lincoln, 25th and Lincoln, there's a hotel, used to be a stop on the Bamberger. They had a sign up, but in there Harry the Tailor had a tailor shop in one of those little stores. Harry was from Armenia or some Middle Eastern country and he was a hell of a good, old bachelor. He had a barber shop, I mean a tailor shop. Anyhow we'd go up to Grant and you went past the hotel and in the middle of the block was Johnny Marsh's, the bug man, he was a pest control guy. John Marsh, and he had a sign, bughouse with a caterpillar on the top. I wonder what ever happened to that sign. Wonder if someone has it in their basement or out in a barn? 30 Then there seems to me like there was a big green building, concrete or masonry or something. Was like a wholesale, it was a pale green. Anyhow there was also a place in there, we all thought it was the Chinese lottery. It was a store front and they had like teller windows in there. It was Chinese and I don't know, might have been some kind of a thrift club or business. We all thought it was a Chinese lottery where you went in, but every time I went by the door was open, but I never saw anyone in there. That was the story that it was a Chinese lottery. Over on 24th street and there's an empty lot now next to the Berthana, used to be the Dinner Horn, was a grocery store. Then going west there was a gas station and when that folded it turned into a locksmith and Lester Pelton learned his business. MY: Wasn't it Vicks? FY: Was it Vicks? MY: I think it was Vicks. FY: It was a—they had a locksmith in there and this kid we know learned his trade in there. Next was the Grant Hotel and Grant Tap Room. Japanese, lot of Japanese in there. Then next was Minnie, don't know her last name, she was a barber. She came and interned during the war and she was a Buddhist. She played a mean poker game and she made a mean stir fry. She used to invite us out to the Buddhist festival every year. Next was Sakarada Fish Market. Then there was HJ Bonnie, turkey broker, and he raised turkeys. Now in those days where Wal-Mart is on 21st, 20th, there was a turkey processor there. Bonnie had an interest in that or maybe it was his. Then they turned it into a cold storage and then tore it down 31 for Wal-Mart. Then there was Richard's Sheet Metal—had apartments. We had one and the reason we had one well we had a little dog, little Corgi. Familiar with a Corgi? LR: No. FY: Queen Elizabeth raises Corgies, little. That nice place on 24th and Monroe that's supposed to be a Frank Lloyd Wright house, that was an apartment house. They wouldn't rent us an apartment cause we had a little dog. We lived at Richard's until we could find a place and parked in the back 50 bucks a month, everything but lights. Hot water, heat. LR: Wow, all for 50 bucks a month. FY: Then across the street the motel is still there. Now they call it the Westward Ho or something. Down on the corner where the old shaver mart is, Bob Hinds, H-I-N- D-S had a Conoco Station. Next to Richard's there was a lumber yard, don't remember the name, but I think it began with a B. MY: Burton, was it Burton's? FY: Could be. MY: Burton had a lumber place. FY: I can't remember what was next down to the corner. But Crittenden Paint still there, that building's still there. That restaurant I guess that's been a restaurant for a million years. Then you came up 24th street you had the Dinner Horn, you had the Berthana, there was a bar in there. MY: The Lighthouse Lounge. 32 FY: That was it, The Lighthouse huh? Okay. Good timing for your visit here. Then you hit Kiesel and the Kiesel Building, there were two dentists in there. I knew—I mean there might have been more but there were two dentists and they would cover each other. So I knew both, one was Reuben Clark who was kind of a milk toast type guy. You know milktoast? Well see years ago there was a comic strip called Milquetoast, also at that time was Maggie and Jiggs and the Toonerville Trolley, see that dates me. What you gals got to do is start looking up some of this stuff because Toonerville Trolley had a guy on there, they called it Terrible Temper Mr. Bang and he was always mad. I have a son who we referred to occasionally as "Terrible Temper Mr. Bang," cause he can talk himself into a mad and we'd say, "Terrible Temper Mr. Bang," he has no idea what we are talking about. Anyhow the other guy was something Turner. Anyhow he used to be an engineer and then decided he wanted to be a dentist and as much as Reuben Clark was a milktoast he was the macho. I mean he'd cuss a blue streak if he had to, you know, something went wrong. He told a story once about—he was hunting and he'd go working up this sidehill and he gets to the top, and there's some guy there laying on the ground and looking over at things. He says, "I told him that was a hell of a climb." He says, "Yeah, I noticed you had a little bit of a problem here and there. I had you in my scope all the time." He said, "You had me in your scope?" "Yeah," he said. 33 "Is that gun loaded?" He says, "Yeah," He said, "I beat the crap out of him." That's the kind— LR: Well I can understand that. FY: Reuben Clark to quote my wife, "he wouldn't say it if he had a mouthful." Then across the street was the Finer Foods Café and next to it was the Finer Tap Room. If you went down the café, they were narrow. They went down toward the kitchen, there was a door that took you into the Tap Room. Then at the Eccles Building up on the corner was a Walgreen's. MY: Cause the door you went in on the corner. FY: See Walgreen's. MY: They had a little lunch counter. LR: Is this on Grant then? FY: Well every drug store had a counter. MY: No it'd be on Washington. FY: Washington, under the Eccles Building. There's a hotel there now. Walgreen's always had a corner. They had a place across from that Crossroads Mall. First night in Salt Lake I had a cup of coffee right across the street from the temple. I flew out, stewardess is telling me all about the Salt Lake and the Mormons and they don't drink and they don't smoke. I spent the night in Salt Lake so I'd catch the bus the next day to Logan cause I was going to school up there. I walk 34 around, first thing I stay at that little hotel, it's on South Temple between Main and State and it's still there. Just little cozy, I don't know 8 or 10 rooms, it's probably a fancy apartment house now. Anyhow I walked in, walked around, typical Walgreen's. They sold cigarettes and cigars and pipe tobacco and coffee and they had a lunch counter and people sitting there smoking and drinking coffee. Then I walked around and ran into two cigar stores within a couple of blocks and I'm wondering what is she talking about? Anyhow I had her phone number and I called her. Tried to set up a date. MJ: No luck? FY: No, you know why? I wasn't Mormon. Well I sort of learned how it worked. It took me a while, but anyhow that was my introduction to Utah. It was a DC 3 and one of the two roughest places to fly in the country is Denver to Salt Lake and the other one is from Washington D.C. somewhere over the Appalachians I can't remember. Anyhow D.C. 3 21 passengers, it was full, served us a nice meal and then we hit the turbulence. The stewardess comes by, got plenty of food if you want it. God I could smell this puke. God that was a rough trip. MY: Now what did you start up at? FY: 46. So anyhow let's see we were on 24th street. You had the First Security Bank and across the street was W.T. Grant, pink sandstone, a red sandstone. My father-in-law helped build that and he said they poured concrete with wheelbarrows and they went up wheelbarrow at a time. Then that became ZCMI. 35 LR: There was a ZCMI in Ogden? MY: Right where the Weber place is. FY: They had a walkway over to the mall over Nordstrom's. LR: When was the ZCMI in Ogden? FY: Well I'm looking at that Ogden Hikes thing and the J.C. Penney building was ZCMI and then they, I guess shut down and left. Then came back after W.T. Grant. See 24th, Washington Boulevard between 25th and 24th street you had— MY: L.R. Samuel's. FY: Aurbach's. MY: Well L.R. Samuels to begin with. FY: Yeah, then Aurbach's. MY: Then Freddy Aurbach married the Samuels girl. FY: Then you had there was a men's store next to the— MY: Fred M. Nye? FY: No I'm talking on the west side. There was—I got a suit hanging in the closet I think came from them. Next to the bank, next between the bank and the Egyptian or the other side of the Egyptian, anyhow you had Keeley's Restaurant. MY: Smalley's Jewelry was right by the bank. FY: The men's store was probably on the north side of the bank. Anyhow you had restaurants and on the other side you had Nye's and when they closed I think 36 that's when Buehler Dunn, and Branz opened. You had Blocks in there, Blocks was an Idaho, small Idaho chain. Very upscale and kind of a department store, mostly men. Then when you went over to J.C. Penney you had Payless Drug and you could get in from Kiesel. Then you had in a row you had Newberry's, Woolworth and Grant, no W.T. Grant was across the street. Woolworth, Kresge three 5 and dimes, then there were assorted businesses. MY: Skagg's was downtown. FY: Well that was Payless. Ensign Drug was along in there. Every drug store had a lunch counter. MJ: Oh we are just about, the battery is just about out. FY: You want to plug in? MJ: Yeah. FY: There's a plug in. Marva, MY: Is it in the bedroom? FY: Yeah, one in the bedroom there. MJ: Most of the time I just plug it in automatically, but I thought we'd be okay with the battery cause it was just charged. FY: Then you went down the end of the block was Sear's. They had on the Kiesel Avenue side an auto, 3 bay auto. They changed oil and stuff like that. They moved and that was the end of the downtown. Cross from Sear's you had Firestone, had a big store, I think it's a bank now. 37 MY: It's Zion's Bank. FY: Then across the street was Reliable Furniture. Was it Reliable? MY: There was a Reliable. You know who owned Reliable? Herscowitz, Sam Herscowitz because my mom worked for his wife when he and his brother owned Reliable Furniture. FY: Well it became then Wolfe Sporting Goods and next to the Firestone store that would be on the east side between 23rd and 24th coming south, was Madsen Furniture. That dinet set came from Madsen Furniture when we were living up on Binford. My kids were in high school, that has to be over 40 years and I refuse to buy a new one. My sister has for years said, "Why don't you know it's wearing out." She insisted my mother buy a new coat and she died. She insisted her husband buy a new suit, he says no way Jose. He said, "Looked what happened to your mother," and that's why I won't buy a new dinette, cause the odds—the longer I wait the odds get better, but yeah that was Madsen Furniture. MY: Sav On was down there, Sav On Sporting Goods. FY: Well on 24th now, let's go. MY: But it was between 22nd and 23rd. FY: Let's go down 24th street now from W. T. Grant, cross the street J. C. Penney. Next door was I think Klenke, K-L-E-N-K-E Hardware. MJ: Were they connected to Klenke Floral? FY: I don't know. 38 MY: I have no idea. FY: But this old guy and his daughter ran that store. I think when they wrecked that they probably destroyed it. What a store, they had a ladder on a truck. Bins all the way to the ceiling and if you went in there for like a number 10 flathead screw they—everything came bulk in those days. If you went in and asked for whatever, they could go get it and they knew where it was, they'd move the ladder, climb up, open the drawer. Great. Then there was a Haberdasher open on the corner later. Can't remember his name, but then cross the street was Read Brothers, big place, but with a horse on top. Now I'm going to tell you, I don't know if you know about the horse. Some guy one night climbed up there somehow painted that black horse brown. That horse was black, it was patterned or supposed to have been a replica of a famous Ogden horse called Old Nig. Does that tell you anything? It's a black horse, Old Nig. Then next to that was, there was—later on it became Sunset Sporting Goods, but next to that was Kammeyer's, had the big old wooden gun out front. Remember that? No pictures of that? They had a big rifle made out of wood it was about, god, had to be 6 or 8 feet. Kammeyer's Sporting Goods and then next was the church. Kammeyer's, I think one of those boys became an obstetrician/gynecologist here in Ogden, working. Dr. Kammeyer. Then there was the church, then across the street was the post office. Now it you went south from the Dinner Horn there was the Bamboo Noodle, good place. Then you came to Dokas's, and then there was a building there, old brick building that had tile. 39 Had a garage door and tile, blue and white, but I used to call bathroom tile. It was that little hex and in the middle of that white, Browning. LR: So that's on, I actually know where this building is. That's the one on Grant. MY: So the Federal Building— LR: In between 24th? FY: 24th/23rd. Well it's on the east side of 24th or the east side of Grant and north of 24th. See we started at the Dinner Horn which was on 24th, now wait a minute. MY: Wasn't that Browning next to where the Federal Building is? FY: Yeah MY: The Federal Building's here and then you go north on Grant and Browning's was right there. LR: Well there were two Browning buildings. They kind of faced—their backs were to each other. One was on Kiesel and one was on Grant. So the one you're talking about? FY: Has to be on 24th then, between 24th and 23rd MY: No it was 24th and 25th. FY: It has to be 24th/25th because the church is on 24th going to 23rd. Dokas was in there somewhere and there was— MY: It was Browning and then Dokas. FY: There was a commercial building with a garage door. 40 LR: That's the one on Grant. FY: Yeah and it had, in front of the door, it had an apron. Blue trim, it was oblong and it had blue edging and a white—in the white it said Browning and it was that tile, that little 6 sided tile. LR: You'll be happy to know that they actually restored that building and that's still there, that tile. FY: It is? I have to go down and somehow, but hell you know I can't walk anymore. MY: We'll have to get you a chair. LR: The one on Kiesel it's long gone. FY: Yeah that's where Pete found the Browning workshop and gave it to the Depot. Now I was in Nauvoo and I saw the old original Browning workshop, had a personal tour of that building. They've done great work with it, with Nauvoo. I stopped there, I was on this spot and I had some neighbors who were doing a mission there. I found them, funny I'm living in Rexburg and I pull in to Nauvoo, and that's way before the temple was restored and all that, and I'm looking around and there's a few buildings here and there. I see a couple of people raking leaves in front of this brick building and it turns out to be their headquarters or office or something. I pulled up and I hollered out the window, "Hello there!" The lady comes over I say, "I'm looking for the Cazier, would you know where they are?" She says, "I don't know where they are, but wait a minute," and she walked in and come out with a binder, everybody's schedule. "Well he's down at 41 the blacksmith shop and she's over at the tinkers place." So she directs me and I got down to the blacksmith shop and I walked in on a presentation. Anyway after the presentation they handed out horseshoe nail rings to the kids and I said to Gale, "Geez, can I have one of those? I had one when I was a kid," and I got that somewhere. I looked at it not too long ago here. Anyhow I said, "I used to have one," so he gave it to me and I wore and I stopped on that trip, I stopped in Cheyenne and my brother was there. I was telling him, I said, "Here's what I brought." Bill looks at it, says, "Gee I had one of them when I was a kid." Every kid had one of them cause they had blacksmith and they still had some horses around. Anyhow they just bent a nail around a pipe, but anyhow I have that ring somewhere and it's been 15 years ago since I got that. I visit with Gale and I said, "Where's Yvonne?" He says, "She's over at the tinkers I'll take you," so we go over to the tinkers. She says she's embarrassed standing there with cue cards, 3 by 5 cards. "I just got assigned here yesterday, this is my first day. Up until now I was over at the Browning workshop." She was nervous as all get out. I said, "Well I'll tell you what Yvonne, I'm alone nothing to worry about you know me, be comfortable, make your pitch." She went through it, had to make a few references and she says, "Well that wasn't so hard." Anyhow then she took me over to the Browning place, just 42 the two of us, and they got us in there and out in the garden—a lot of these places they'd planted gardens. Tomato plants, lettuce, eggplant you know and they feed themselves. I mean they had these gardens and they keeps the weeds down and all these missionaries have fresh produce all through the summer. Then they took me—I had a little personal tour, saw a few things that most visitors don't get to see, but doing a bang up job. They have a land office and I didn't understand the land office until I left. I had another neighbor, who was a day behind me and when he came back we got comparing notes. The land office has the original plans of Nauvoo, and if you tell them who you're interested in—My wife's great grandfather, I got a deed or not a deed but a copy of a deed and a location on the town plat of where he lived and he lived about two blocks from Joseph Smith. Now it's right downtown, Nauvoo. A lot of motels and souvenir shops, but the rest of it, they're doing a bang up job. What's not there anymore, right across the street on the corner from the old temple, was the headquarters of the reorganized church. The church finally bought them out a few years ago, but they had a nice modern brick building and they were on one corner. This office I stopped at was just up on the other block on another corner and they've restored the temple. I was able to see where the fount was, they had a well in there and some of those sunstones were still laying around. Anyhow I don't know if we got off subject. LR: It's okay. I hate to be the one to say put the brakes out, but you've worn me out. I was worried about wearing you out and you've done the exact opposite. I haven't had lunch yet. 43 FY: Well I'll tell you what. I've got a pot of lentils and I'll be glad to share them because I hate leftovers. LR: Ok. For not being an Ogden native you sure know a lot about the buildings, why is that? FY: Cause I like history. See I took a course at Weber State one time on Utah history and it was taught by this Hispanic fellow. I don't remember his name now. Anyhow I can tell you about places wherever I've gone see. I can tell you things. I lived in Star Valley for a while. I know where the old Oregon Trail passed through the valley. I can take you there, I'm sure it's still there. I think if they widened the road they went that a way see. I followed Louis and Clark from St. Louis to Fort Clatsop, except where you had to go on a boat. Through Nebraska and that country there, there's not much to see, but from Fort Mandin all over, pretty much all of it. I've been to Lemhi Pass, I got the journals here, I read it and copied the original journals, I've seen them. God they're great big I don't know how many. I have my brother, one brother, he found some old 16 mm movies that we had when we were kids and he gave them to a guy and he was able to salvage about 15 or 20 minutes. Some are home movies, some are old movies that we used to buy. You know we had no TV and I had a crank that you could buy things. Saw Felix the Cat and few things. Got all of that on DVD. Wherever I've gone, I know the history from where I was born. I know see I grew up in Pennsylvania, Philadelphia was 90 miles away. When I moved to California for a couple of years, I'd been on most every mission from San Diego to Sonoma. Some of them weren't much but wrecks when I saw them and now 44 most of them have been restored, but I went to that mission in Carmel. I'm shocked, got a big sign about Father Serra saying mass on the 4th of July, 1776. That was an enlightenment, I knew July 4th Philadelphia, the Liberty Bell you know. Same time the Spanish were out there, they're planting gardens and converting the natives. So I can tell you a lot about California and I can tell you about the Civil War. What I should have been is a historian. Start of Part II, July 23, 2013. FY: I'd like to start. We were on 24th street, we talked about Kammeyer's and the big gun out front, the sign? LR: Yes we did. FY: Smith and Edward's bought Kammeyer's. If you got in touch with Bert Smith I bet you could find that gun. LR: Is he still alive? FY: Oh yeah. 93 years old and he's alive. In fact he gave a presentation on the avenging Angel, what's his name? Porter Rockwell, to a group it was in the paper like I don't know month, six weeks ago. So he's alive and well. He bought Kammeyer's and he owned it when they shut it down. Bet that sign is out there at Smith and Edward's or maybe at his home or somewhere. I'm sure—not Bert he wouldn't throw it away. You know he bought the old Swift building. LR: Where you used to work? 45 FY: 60,000 bucks he paid for that old place and he told me he said, "I feel good. When I feel good about a deal it means I made a good deal." Hell he probably got his 60,000 bucks back just in the salvage on the first month or so. Cause he opened it, he rented different parts, he put holes in the wall and gave access. He rented out the garage and he punched a hole in the wall and the curing cellars became—the last I saw it a guy was selling boats in there. I don't know if he sold them or maintained them or he had a dealership or something. He sold two new boilers. They'd brought in the newest boiler was probably a year old, the other one probably two or three years old. Probably got 60 grand right there. LR: So where was the Swift building? FY: Just across the yards on 24th. Hey there's some great pictures in here and we're going to go through these pictures. FY: Anyhow here's a picture of 25th street [Frank is looking at pictures from Ogden City: It's Government Legacy]. See in the 20s there were trolley cars. LR: But that's not the Bamberger? FY: No that's a trolley car, that's a city system and I read in here what I didn't know. They had six routes. You know I told you my father-in-law used to drive one of them. That's how come my wife was born at the Cobble Cottage in 1927 cause he was down here, He was down here driving. Anyhow they had six routes, 24 miles. I didn't knowhit was that extensive, but there's the Healy Hotel and here's that building that's still here. Anyhow the Royal Hotel used to be the Arcadia. 46 LR: So here's a question for you and maybe you know. I've always thought that Porter's and Waiter's wasn't its own individual building. That it was underneath— FY: It was the downstairs. It was a bar and it was an afterhours club and there was like a shooting or knifing about twice a week in there. Now I never went in the place when it was that, but you know the guy that went up on the roof to look over at the sunbathers, he used to go in there frequently. The upstairs was the hotel and they catered to the black employees from the railroad which were mostly porters and waiters. See the dining cars—all the waiters were black, stewards were white. So when you gave an order in the dining car you wrote it out from the menu and they filled the order then they brought you the bill and you gave them the money and the steward handled all the money. Now those people—Ogden was a junction see between [audio missing]. LR: Hopefully it will be in business now. FY: Okay we were talking about the porters and waiters. Ogden was the—I don't remember what they used to call it. It was the end of the run, see they changed crews and these guys had to have a place to stay. We talked about the situation and there's a picture in here of Read's with the horse up on top. I was told by someone that horse is out on west 12th street in front of some veterinary's place. Anyhow they called the place the porters and waiters club and in fact in those days 25th street—this tells after it got cleaned up it went downhill fast just like I was telling you. Lot of transients moved in and there's a picture in here of the old Shupe Williams candy factory. I'd forgotten about that, it's on 26th and Wall. Big four story, they were a big candy company and they shut down I don't know. 47 They were running when I came and then some transients got in there as usually happens, burned the damn place down. Directly north now we're talking on the west side of Wall Avenue, directly north across 26th street was the old Union Pacific Laundry. Well when the trains quit running they didn't need the laundry anymore. Then next to that was railway express agency. You remember the railway express wagons with the great big wheels? I'm sure they have one or two at the depot. They were baggage carts. They met the trains and they'd off load baggage and freight. They were huge wheels, and you know guys would pull them by hand or push them. Those buildings are gone and then on the other side was the freight station, that's gone too. Now across the street we got the Healy Hotel identified and well we'll go around the corner. There was a place called Ketchum Builder's Supply and a big one story low building. I can remember driving down there for something on a Saturday when the Teton Dam broke cause I listened to it on the radio. I had no idea about where it was or what it was, but geez you know that was 1976. What is that now? Pushing 50 years, 45/40. LR: Yeah 45. FY: So how time flies. That buildings gone. Next to this was Goddard's. Goddard was an industrial supply. The brick building is still there. Next was Scowcroft's on Wall Avenue. LR: heading towards 26th? 48 FY: Heading towards 24th. We're going around the corner from the Healy. It was Ketchum, then Goddard, then Scowcroft. Scowcroft was a big whole sale—dry goods and food wholesaler. I think they've saved that building, I think it's on the national historic register. What I remember about it last time I saw it, they had that you could still see the advertising on the outside. They made overalls, now you've heard of Osh Kosh B'Gosh? Well they had Can't Bust 'em, that was their brand. One of the Scowcroft's if he's still alive, the General Scowcroft used to be an intelligence guy for George, first George Bush. Brent Scowcroft he was born here. He's a Scowcroft from that family and that building I think has been restored. Now it's cross the street from the Transit you know. The railroad, frontrunner, depot the travel. What do they call it? LR: The park and ride FY: You know and they have the buses. Then you come up 24th street and I think Anderson Lumber was in there. See now you're under the viaduct and you're now coming up the south side of 24th street to Wall Avenue. Now we're at Lincoln and we're going backwards up from that lumber company, Richard's, the turkey guy, the fish market, the Grant tap, and then the Dinner Horn. Now go across the street to the church and start going east, that's where you ran into Kammeyer's, next to the church. Then Sunset Sporting Goods was in there but there was something before that I don't recall. Then you ran into Read, leather people. Then you crossed Kiesel and it was a couple of businesses and the hardware store I told you about and J.C. Penney's, which according to this book, used to be ZCMI before 1900. Now cross Washington 49 Boulevard there was the W. T. Grant and you went up the hill to St. Joseph's Church and look at this picture. This I think is 24th street, there's the bend on 24th, freeway is out here and see here's a spur. That's the one that goes up to the elevators. There's packing house, there's the big livestock pavilion and here's the stock yards. LR: So this is where they would do the auctions? FY: Yeah, and that's where they had the stock show. See and here's the viaduct. LR: So this would be Union Station? FY: No the Union Station would be over here. LR: Oh this is 24th okay. FY: It'd be around here, 25th would be up here. That's 24th, that's got to be stairs to the station. LR: Well if the freeway is over here 25th has to be right here. FY: Oh no, the other way, okay you're right. LR: You can actually see where it ends right there. FY: I was going the wrong direction. LR: This is Wall and that's 25th and that looks like the Ben Lomond. FY: And the depot would be over here. I don't know when they viaduct was built but there's an interesting picture in here that has a Grandview Acres. This was war housing. They were two story duplexes, still around I think. They were at about 38th and Quincy or somewhere and there was a lady lived downstairs, her 50 grandfather used to manage that place. We were talking one time and I said I probably knew him because my wife and I looked out there to buy one of those duplexes. I guess it's still there, but there's another small world story see. Now see here's this, here's another picture. Like on the cover, here's 24th street, there's that big bend and here's where Del Monte was. LR: The Cannery? FY: The elevators were here. The packing house and the yards. Now in this picture the viaduct was there. Now there's the Broom Hotel which was built about 1880 something and this was 1920, a war parade. But you look at it you notice all the window blinds are even. You know it was in great shape. Well when they finally tore it down, had to be around 1960 or late 50s it was pretty decrepit. LR: It didn't look nearly as good? FY: It was kind of just abandoned and they built the bank. Oh here, here's one. Here's Washington boulevard, you remember I told you, see this is before the Ben Lomond, but there's the Orpheum theater. LR: See I thought the Orpheum was on 25th street. FY: No, the Orpheum was right there next to Ben Lomond. It's a state office building now. This was the old city hall, I don't remember that but anyhow remember I told you about the shoe store, right there. And these two little buildings between were there in the 70s. LR: now it's a parking lot. 51 FY: Yeah, next to the hotel. But there's visual evidence and you can—St. Joseph back in the 20s, that's also on the historic register. LR: Well it sounds like you enjoyed skimming through that. FY: Oh here, Sacred Heart Academy. I mentioned the girls school, 25th and Quincy. The nuns ran this and really some of these details I picked—they had 600 boarding students, all girls and every prominent Mormon pretty much sent their girls to St. Anne's for their education. It was the place, but what I found interesting in here is these nuns were from St. Mary's in South Bend, Indiana. There was a college there, St. Mary's College. You see now I got to look this up. Is Notre Dame what used to be St. Mary's College? I'm talking back 1878 when the nuns first came here see. That's how things build. They came out—St. Joseph's Catholic School, oldest school continuing in the whole state—started 1878 by these nuns on the corner. Now according to this, Utah Bank, Bank of Utah, southwest corner of 26th and Washington, anyhow they tore that down and we talked about this yesterday. Remember we talked about all the doctors who were downtown, mostly in the First Security Building. Well when they abandoned the school somebody got in there and turned it into a professional mall and that's when the doctors started leaving and getting spread around town. Which was another stake in the heart of downtown because that had to be, it's in here somewhere, 1960 or something like that. So those are some of the details. Here's Weber College, when the church gave it to the state. I understand they tore that building down. Now why the hell would they tear that down? 52 LR: It's the American mentality unfortunately. FY: Now stands an empty lot there. The city school district, Ogden City School District got this property and their offices there; it's on, what is it, Adams and 26th or something? I think it's across from the forest service. Anyhow the building on the corner is still there, but this was next and it's gone. LR: But the one with the WC on the façade? FY: I think. LR: I've driven past it a couple of times, they're doing some work on it right now. FY: Well anyhow there's the Shupe Williams Candy Company. LR: And this is the one on Wall and? FY: 26th. Now see that was on the southwest corner, now you're coming this way on Wall. You cross the street here and you ran into the Union Pacific Laundry and now that's where they have some of those old cars. Now transients burned this thing down. Now they're doing the same thing, I see in the paper they had a couple of fires this winter. They have a couple of old wooden railroad cars down there they got for restoration and they've run transients out because they've set them on fire trying to keep warm. That's what burned down that grocery store and I think the name was Nicholas, the grocer. Nicholas Grocer. LR: That actually makes sense, I recall that name. FY: During that period when 25th street was skid row, lot of those upstairs, you know they were a lot of hotels and rooming houses and stuff. Some old wino got cold in the middle of the night and lit a fire under the sink and burned the damn place 53 down. What I'm trying to find is that picture of the bridges across the Weber River down by the packing house. In here they mentioned Clix. LR: Is that a gas station? FY: Well Clix, his name was Clarence Swanner and he had a gas station on 26th and Grant I think it was. Northeast corner, Clicks Service. How come you're familiar with Clix Service? LR: I interviewed a gentleman whose grandfather owned it originally and sold it to the Swanners. FY: Well Clicks died at a 103 and he's mentioned in here playing cards or playing marbles on 25th street when he was a kid. Well see when he was a kid, he was probably born1895 or something, and so when he was playing marbles down there it was probably pretty much like the rest of Ogden, just rough frontier town. Here's a picture of the yards. I'll tell you what I did. I called my kid up last night and I went through this with him. LR: Would that be Marva's husband? FY: Yeah, cause we talked about these places. See there's the viaduct, don't know when that was built. This is 29th street, here's the elevators on 29th. You know where you go around them when you get on the freeway you go down 30th. These are the elevators see. That's 29th street LR: So this would be the station here? FY: No this is the Ice House and this here is where they, used to ice the reefers. LR: So where's the station? 54 FY: I can remember when they used to do that. LR: Ice the reefers? FY: Refrigerated cars had ice. Both ends had bunkers with hatches on the top and they'd run these refrigerated cars down there and they'd put ice out of the Ice House and they had a belt would run the ice. Guys would walk along the train, lift the hatch if they needed ice, they'd throw in a couple of 100 pound blocks and they iced every refrigerated train that went through here. Then they went to mechanical refrigeration and they tore this out, but the Ice House is still there. Here's 24th street, so the depot has got to be over and around here somewhere, but look at all the trackage. There was a Y out here. Train coming in from the east would pull into the station and then when it was leaving for the west it would back out and that Y is gone long time ago. See when I first came this was all active, there's the Southern Pacific Roundhouse. I had a neighbor, was a Southern Pacific engineer, and oh there's the old Bamberger train, probably at Lagoon. Here's the stock yards. Now see there's the packing house, just started out as American, as Ogden Packing, then went to American Packing and Provision then Swift bought them in 1949. LR: So that's where you worked? FY: Yeah and this was the ramp where they drove the livestock and here's these two bridges and I'm trying to find the picture. We were talking about Clix, he remembered when they put that bridge in and the bridge is still there and it's got a plaque on it, who built it, who installed it, when they installed it, all that information. Here it is, see. Now this was taken—there's no viaduct and the 55 packing house was probably in there somewhere maybe at this time it was probably pretty small. Here's the railroad bridge, this is the bridge Clix remembers when they installed it. It's over the Weber River and on this side of it there's a plague and you can still see it. Here's the road bridge that goes out Wilson Lane, that took you—see on this picture 24th street see came across and there's Wilson Lane and here's that spur that comes up to the elevators. So I don't know when they built the viaduct, but prior to that you had to cross the tracks and I imagine like on most railroad crossing back in those days that they'd have a guy come out with a sign, stop traffic while the trains went by. LR: Getting back to 24th street, did we finish 24th street then? FY: Yeah I think we did. Now we could go around the corner on 24th and Lincoln and go to the Iron Works, Ogden Iron Works is now where the ballpark is. The Ogden Iron Works was big, now I didn't notice anything in there, I could've missed it. By then it got pretty extensive. But I think they had something to do with the Golden Gate bridge, it was fabricated, all types of steel and stuff. That was going and the can company was going and Del Monte was going and the packing houses, we had three of them and they were all going. The railroads, you know things were booming. This was a going town and it distresses me to go downtown, I drive down 24th street. The First Security Banks empty, the Wells Fargo cross the street big signs space to let, and you go down where the church tore down and the old Travelodge hotel/motel all that's empty space. Then you go over here by Rite Aid down on 24th street, well kiddy-corner to Rite Aid is old Wheelwright Lumber, all abandoned. See it used to be 56 lumberyards were downtown, Anderson Lumber was down there and Wheelwright was there just on Adams or Monroe, somewhere in there. That place we talked about, I can't remember what Marva called it. LR: Burton. FY: Burton, that was downtown. The town I come from up in Rexburg, Boise, Cascade, still right downtown. Anderson Lumber left, but that's the way it was. All this space, there's urban blight, we got it. Now what they're starting to do, I read it and I see it, they've done some preliminary work. The city is going to open Fowler Avenue between 24th and 23rd and they're going to put 28 homes in the middle of that block. They've already cut down all the trees and I think the power company's run a couple of lines in. Then you know they have historic districts now and I can remember, that was probably 20 years ago, when they were selling homes to somebody for a buck or 100 bucks, for very little money if you'd restore them. Some of those neighborhoods are starting to come back, but lots of empty places. You go down on Washington Boulevard, lot of places they got business, strip malls. You know they got some of these big buildings, you see them advertising like stock broker, 24 or something suite 8. Well those were all big stores and businesses and there's a picture in here of 25th and Washington. LR: While you're looking let me ask you a question. So with the railroad stopping in the 70s, you talked about how it just kind of died. What do you think is bringing it back? Is helping it kind of become more of the city, the industrial, not industrial. You know what I'm trying to ask? I don't think I'm doing a very good job. 57 FY: I don't think it's coming back that fast. See it was diverse, Riverdale was all farms. You had, like everybody else you had urban sprawl. Everybody wanted to move out. Well that's bad but then when the businesses start moving out which is what happened with the Newgate Mall. When Stephen Dirks—he was talking about a mall before the Newgate Mall. They all downplayed it in the council chamber I guess. When they started Sear's was already gone, Woolworth's was already gone and probably several other places were gone. See you had there on one block, these were all like five and dime stores: W. T. Grant, you had Woolworth, Kresge, Newberry, I'm missing one. They were all there between 24th and 23rd on Washington. Then down—you know it had all kinds of stores. Cross's Western Wear was down there, we mentioned Reliable Furniture which later became Wolf. LR: You mentioned Reliable Furniture, yes. Isn't that where you got your— FY: No that's Madsen. Now Madsen is gone, they're gone but they're still in Salt Lake. I see them advertised on TV, Madsen Furniture. We were talking about that dinette set, over 40 years old and I'm still here and that's still here and Madsen's gone. Then, just come to mind. I think it was right next to the Episcopal Church. J.W. Brewer, tire company. I think he was on Grant. LR: He had a brief stint in the Browning Building, the one on Kiesel. It was only for a year and it was— FY: He sold appliances in there and I knew the guy who ran it, Sandy. Anyhow he ended up he was managing the Ben Lomond Hotel for a while and Cal Rampton was governor. When Cal Rampton would come to Ogden they'd take a room for 58 him there and Sandy what the hell was his name? He stocked it with a corncob pipe and some tobacco for the governor. It will come to me about 1:00 in the morning, but then he ran J. W. Brewer's I think, before he managed the hotel. He was on—I remember the store, it was a big store, J. W. Brewer tire. For a while he was like, not Les Schwab cause he's too big, but like Jack's Tire out of Logan. See Jack's Tire started in Logan, got a big place here and I don't know, they probably got a few others. J. W. Brewer had a couple, 3 locations and he was starting to build—I don't know whatever happened, but he was on Kiesel or Grant north of 24th I think. I remember the big store, big glass front. That was way before Big O, but there was a Firestone Store, that was his competitor. They were on 23rd and Washington, across from Reliable. Then I think Dar Larsen and a bunch of guys started a bank and their office was just up the hill from Washington on 23rd or 22nd and I can't remember the name of the bank, but they went defunct. Dar Larsen was Pepsi Cola. LR: That plant was on? FY: 17th and Washington. LR: I thought they had one on 25th street, the PepsiCo plant. I could be wrong. FY: Well they're going to tear that place down. It's now—I don't know what it is now— but it was a disco. It's right there by the river and they're going to tear it down. City is going to sell it to 7-11, they're going to put a 7-11 store there. Anyhow he and a bunch of guys started a bank and I can't remember what they called it, but it fizzled. I didn't recall seeing that in here, course I did a lot of skipping when it 59 looked familiar. Their office was just up the hill from Washington, somewhere on the north side of 23rd or 22nd, probably 23rd street. Standard Examiner was up on Adams and I think 23rd, that's where it was when Abe Glassman was running it. He had a farm that's now Smith's out on 41st and Harrison, that was the Glassman farm. For years they held out, they were developing all around and Glassman, I don't know he had about 40 acres in there, all gone. LR: I guess I should mention that I wanted you to talk about Kramer's, Kramer's Hot Dogs. I've heard a lot about it and would love to get your take. FY: It was, I don't know maybe the front end of a private home, but you walked up on the sidewalk and there was a window, Kramer's Hot Dogs and Hamburgers. The synagogue's in there, they must still have a synagogue in town, on 27th something Grant. Well that was about next door to Kramer's. Yeah they served— then further down was Utah Bottling where when they quit bottling they served beer and now I think there's apartments back in there. I can remember when they served schooners. Yeah I had more than one in there, nice cool plenty of parking. Kramer's was just a walk up storefront, it was—I mean there's the sidewalks and there's all the buildings, the fronts. It was Kramer's and it had a big window and you bought a hot dog or a hamburger and they were good. LR: Would you call them the best in town? FY: Well I don't recall, but there weren't many place to eat hamburgers as hamburger joints until about late 60s. They opened a place between 24th and 25th on the 60 east side, I think they called it the Burger Chalet. It wasn't like all those—narrow deep and you walked in, they had a telephone at each booth. You'd pick up the phone and place your order to the kitchen and that was there for several years. I remember when the first McDonald's opened, it was out across from Weber High School which was on about 11th and Washington Boulevard. It had the golden arches and hamburgers were 15 cents. Swift's supplied the burgers and I can remember when—guy's name was Frank Fidel who ran that part of the operation. He did the hotel and restaurant part of the business. Many a Saturday or Sunday he had to go down to the packing house and get hamburgers cause they, you know they didn't buy enough or something. Business was that great. Anyhow then I think they opened another place further down, south Washington Boulevard, but they gave it up when I remember it was big news. They gave it up because McDonald's then started to enclose it and they didn't think it was worth the effort or the expense. LR: So they closed the Kramer's? FY: So they sold McDonald's. Boy I bet that was a mistake. On that corner of 12th street about that time Mound Fort was on 12th and Washington, Mound Fort Junior High. Across the street there was an ice cream place and I think next door was a butcher shop. That turned into the Food Town, they tore all that out and put Food Town which is a big market which is gone now. There was a guy named Dover, owned the ice cream shop and they sold hamburgers and sandwiches. Got a lot of school trade at noon, but it had a false front, the façade, and they called it the White Cliffs of Dover and he had a picture painted on there 61 of the white cliffs of Dover. I think his name was Otto. Anyhow he built a house, he was one of those first houses going up east 12th that are kind of built up into the side hill? Anyhow he either built there or out on Harrison Boulevard where, I don't know how far out it is, maybe 4800 or 46 where there's a field and there's homes built kind of down in a gulley. They ran Harrison—they filled it in and ran Harrison through there. He served good ice cream sodas. Then on the other corner was a motel. LR: We have gotten off track a little bit, and I don't mind I'm enjoying what you're talking about. Getting back to 24th and 25th, I mean visually I can't tell where we're at, but do you think we've covered? FY: Well we've gone from Adams to Wall and across the yards. We went on 24th street all the way out to the freeway, out by Del Monte and the stock yards and the elevators. Out there— LR: So how many of these places did you have personal interaction with do you think? FY: Personal reactions? LR: Interactions, where you actually go and visit. You think most of them, a third? FY: Oh first, you know we've been talking about the Marion Hotel. Marion Hotel is on Lincoln, now what I don't know is what the hell was that hotel on 25th and Grant where I told you that the Friendly Tavern was next door and the Salvation Army Band would play. Now that was a hotel, I thought that was—I had in my mind that 62 that was the Marion until I saw a picture and Marion Hotel is still there with the sign and it's on Lincoln. LR: I don't know, I'd have to ask. Do you know? EM: No. FY: See that's now across from the federal building. LR: Right, so you want to know where the one was on the name of the hotel on Grant and 25th? FY: See we got the Healy Hotel now and the Royal. LR: The Healy and Broom Hotel were basically the same. FY: No, no. The Broom was on Washington and the Healy was on Wall. The Broom was that nice Victorian with the bay windows and that was a nice building. Yeah when they tore it down it was bad. They had to quit renting rooms, it was just too bad. Well I'll tell you I was in a lot of these places. We talked about Crittenden and Paint and Glass. Before Crittenden it was Fuller Paint and I used to buy paint from them cause they gave me wholesale price and then Crittenden took it over. See that's way back in the 50s. Minnie cut my hair, I drank beer at the Grant Tap, I went over to see Pete Vlahos in his office. LR: I can't get over Vlahos. I see his name and I say Valejos. FY: Nope he pronounced is Vlahos. Yeah the old Bamberger station and I talked about the bug house, you know old John Marsh. Lot of those bars and restaurants up and down 25th street besides the China Temple and the Star, everybody hit them because they were the only places open late that were nice. 63 The bus terminal yeah and the Elks Lodge, I never belonged but I used to get in there now and then. Brown's Ice Cream which was lately the Hostess Thrift Store, and Brown's Ice Cream was a premium ice cream and Swift bought them. Then when Swift closed you know they closed everything. That's when I guess the bakery bought it and they ended up pretty much that whole block except 25th street cause they bought the Elks Lodge and they bought Lacey's apartment house that was behind the Boracho and all that's left on that block that doesn't belong to the bakery is the west side of or the south side of 25th street. Just that one lot deep. There were places that I used to go into Read's and the Finer Tap, and Marva mentioned the Lighthouse bar. They used to be an electric shop, Lighthouse Electric, and they had that sign. I don't know is that sign still there? It was a Lighthouse and said Lighthouse Electric. Right under the Berthana or right next door to the Berthana yeah hell you know downtown. Hey on a Friday night and a Saturday night in Ogden when they had the dance halls going and all that if you didn't get down there by 6:00 or 6:30, you couldn't park three blocks from anywhere. There's a picture in there of the, I can't remember these things. The dance hall there on 24th and what was it, The White? LR: The White City. FY: White city, yeah. There's a picture in there of that ballroom. I danced there and danced at the Berthana and drank beer in most of the places. I never went in El Boracho. LR: That was going to be my next question, did you ever go in there? 64 FY: No, but you know I noticed driving down Wall Avenue about 26th or 7 there's a place called Pico De Gallo. The original Pico De Gallo was on Wall about 22nd or 23rd and it looked like a, the building looked like an old auto junk shop. It was cinder block and it was a dive. My brother used to come to town, he liked it. He liked the food and he'd go down there and it was a dive. I didn't dare go in and I remember the cinder block and they had a big window looked like it was made from you know like old car windshields or something. Anyhow I come back after 30 years and there's Pico De Gallo in a big fancy building. Well of course the place they had is gone, I guess that's part of that frontrunner, that whole development in there. Kammeyer's bought a lot of sporting goods in there and Read's they sold canvas goods, tents and stuff like that besides the leather and the saddlery. The hardware store, and I mentioned Ketchum's. By the time I went to Ketchum's, Klenke's was gone. I think that was the name of the place, love that old hardware store cause it was all compartmented. It was before blister packs and all these little drawers with a little index thing on front. The ladder with the track and I just groove on that stuff and I'm sure when they razed the building they just hauled it all instead of saving at least part of the wall. LR: I think we're winding down here, which I find sad. I want to keep talking, however can you think of anything else on those two streets that you've missed or that you'd like to add before we wind down? FY: I mentioned the gun and the Smith and Edward's. You got to check with Bert about that gun. 65 LR: I'll talk to Sarah and see what she can come up with. FY: You might check out that story I have about that horse by some vet out on west 12th street. LR: Now is that the one that they called Black Nig? FY: Old Nig. LR: Old Nig, thank you. I knew it was something like that. FY: Yeah that was—he was a famous horse around town, I don't know, probably somebody owned him. See now here, here's 25th street and Grant it's this building here on the corner. LR: The hotel? FY: Yeah see and over here would be the bus station. I was at the Egyptian theater back to hear—I can't remember if it was Robert Taft or Everett Dirkson, but I think it was Robert Taft. He tried running for president and he came out and he gave a speech at the Egyptian theater and they let any management people who desired to get off for an hour or two to go up to hear them talk. I remember, I was, boy I was a staunch republican and I was there. I remember, don't remember what he said but I remember the incident mostly because I got an hour or two off work see. Now here's 25th street see. Here's the Marion Hotel so what the hell is this one? LR: Okay that's where Willie's store is now, in the bottom of the Marion. FY: Why did they do this? 66 LR: Now it's a— FY: Diagonal? LR: Diagonal so they've changed it. FY: What were these barriers for? LR: Crosswalks, because there are crosswalks now. FY: That's the building. I thought that was—until I saw this picture I thought that was the Marion Hotel. See anyhow one of these places here was the Friendly Tap, the Friendly Tavern and the band would stand right there, Salvation Army Band, and they'd play for about an hour/45 minutes. It was great because it was about five people, they had the drum of course. Beating the bass, that's classic and we'd walk over and that's when I was telling you we were living on top of the Richard Sheet Metal cause we had that little dog. People were turning us down for an apartment and see here's the empty lot where the grocery store was and the hotel upstairs. After they shut down all the vice it became skid row. They tell you in here, yeah I remember it was a skid row and the only places decent people went was the China Temple or the Star Noodle cause you kind of feared for your life. It was porter's and waiter's club and what I found interesting in here, the names. They talk about councilmen and mayors and a lot of these names come back and I remember. I saw in there George T. Frost was the councilmen, elected to the council. I knew him, he had a Hudson dealership on Washington Boulevard. He had a brother that drove truck for Swift. I don't 67 remember his first name, we called him Frosty. He got killed, ran his truck over somewhere back east. Mayor White, Rulon White, he's the guy who started cleaning up the town. I guess I voted for him because he was elected 1951, I was here. He was the White Concrete Pipe Co. down on I think Wall Avenue they were. He had an orchard or something past the hot springs going up there on that fruitway and Rulon White Ranch was what they called it or something. 68

Edward C. Boyle ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 68p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Edward C. Boyle Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 9 November 2011 18 November 2011 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Edward C. Boyle Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 9 November 2011 18 November 2011 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection includes interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories date back to the early settlement of North Ogden, and cover various topics including the History of Fort Buenaventura, city government affairs, controversial issues, Latinos in Ogden, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management University Archives All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Edward C. Boyle, an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 9 November 2011 and 18 November 2011, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Edward Boyle Roswell, New Mexico 1943 Edward Boyle New York, 1984 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Edward C. (Ted) Boyle (b. 1922). The interview was conducted by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, on November 9, 2011. In this interview Ted speaks of his early life growing up and attending school in Ogden, Utah and later attending Weber State University. The interview also highlights his life after graduating from Weber State University and going on to graduate school at the Thunderbird School of Management. Ted also talks about his career in international banking with Citibank, traveling the world and working as a bank executive. Ted is retired and now lives in St. George, Utah with his wife Hazel. ROH: I'm going to state the date and where we are. Today is November 8, 2011. We're in the home of Ted and Hazel Boyle in St. George, Utah. We are here conducting an oral history. I'll just start by asking you to repeat your name and where and when you were born. EB: My name is Edward Conrad Boyle, commonly known as Ted Boyle. I was born in Ogden, Utah, August the tenth, 1922 in the Thomas D. Dee Hospital in Ogden, Utah. I picked up the nickname of Ted Boyle when I was a youngster which came from my Uncle Albert. He used to call me Theodore Roosevelt and Ted stuck with me all my life. I was socially known as Ted Boyle. ROH: You were born in Ogden. Where did you grow up? EB: I grew up in Ogden, Utah on the east side of Ogden, which at that time was at the outskirts of the city. It was at 1470 26th Street which was between Taylor and Polk Avenue and was an area which was basically low income people on the 2 north side of the street and people of means on the south side of the street. Our house was very small by today's standards—two bedrooms, one bathroom, a small kitchen, a dining room, a living room, and a small lot. My brother and sister and I and my mother and my father only had two bedrooms. So my brother and I slept in the unheated basement of our home in unfinished bedrooms with my mother's washing machine between us. My sister had one bedroom and my father and mother had the other bedroom. It had no garage in as much as my father never owned a car. He was one of the very few in Ogden who didn't have a car. My original concept of this house was that it was purely acceptable for us during those trying times which would be the Depression era of 1920s and 1930s. We got along as we could and stayed out of each other's way. My father who was a furniture salesman with Boyle Furniture Company in Ogden would actually walk two miles through all kinds of weather to save a five cent bus fare. Without a car we all depended on friends to get around to social activities. My mother had to walk three to four blocks and bring back her groceries. I remember that very distinctly. At the tender age of six, seven, and eight years old, I was unaware of the differences in the economic status of people on the block. As I grew older I learned to understand that we were on the wrong side of the track as far as the economic aspect of it. It didn't really bother me that we grew up near the poverty line. My father was a good provider. My mother was a wonderful cook. We ate the staples, cornmeal and mush in the morning and things of that nature. We had an icebox, a small cubicle to eat in 3 and I got by. I learned to accept what we had. I had one pair of shoes and one suit. I learned early in my life that I was not conventional in the sense that I had no feel for solving mechanical problems. I couldn't do anything but maybe change a light bulb. That carried through my whole life as my wife knows very well. I was just not like that. I was not allowed to have a house pet. All my friends had dogs but my father adamantly said no dogs. So I grew up in the neighborhood by adopting dogs in the area. My earliest recollections of my schooling in elementary school were at Polk School, which was a block away from our house. It was a very modern school of that time. There were eight grades and it was very convenient. However, during the heavy winter storms that we had in Ogden in those days, we had snow days where I couldn't even get to school because the snow was piled up so high. ROH: How did you get school? EB: We would try and get through these snow drifts but we were basically snowed in. We used to build snow igloos in my front yard. In my early days at Polk School I was a very average student. I thought I had a knack for numbers but when it came to social studies, math, and others, I had trouble. The teachers at that time—our principal was named Florence Brown. If we got out of order then, at that time, we were called in the office and she took out a ruler and hit us on the butt. Today, you know what would happen. But we accepted that. Our parents accepted that if Johnny was out of order he would pay the price. My earliest contact with the female species was in the third grade when we had all the boys 4 sitting on one side of the room and the girls on the other with a phonograph record playing dance music. The teachers would pair us off and we'd go out and try to dance with each other. It was a very strange feeling. Among those girls was Rosanne Peery. She was in the same class I was. I had no skills of any sort. We had a shop organization where we went down in the basement of the school and made wooden things. By hook and crook I made a sewing cabinet for my mother and had it shellacked and it was a pride and joy for me. As I walked up to my house I stopped at the neighbors place and his Labrador retriever went over and did his thing on my sewing cabinet. I was devastated. It didn't matter when I took it home to my mother. She said, "Oh, that's fine." I think that really must have been the only thing I ever created. ROH: How old do you think you were? EB: I was probably about ten years old I guess. In the school I was not physically adept towards contact sports which bothered me enormously because we were always rough housing and I was afraid to get in the middle of it. So I became a finesser, trying to find a sport where I didn't have the contact. I developed a very fine arm. I used to throw stones and I developed a very strong pitching arm, so I became successful in softball and things like that. Going back on Polk School— my late brother (who was five years older) at one time, on the third floor, opened a window and got a hold of the ropes on the flag pole and swung out one hundred feet off the ground before hitting the ground. That was the beginning of my brother being an ultimate dare devil. He was afraid of nothing. My dad loved Sundays as it was his only day off. He was not a church man. He would go out 5 and tend his garden which included all kinds of fruit trees. Then in the afternoon he would go down on the bus to the Orpheum Theater and see a movie, then come back home with a bag of popcorn for the family. My mother of course was in church. I was encouraged at that time to go to church on Sunday. ROH: What church did your family go to? EB: It was the LDS church at 26th and Jackson. At that time it was a six block walk for my mother in all kinds of weather. Our bishop was David Romney. I had a group of friends while growing up and among them was Jennings Olson. Jennings was a person whose handicap was a club foot. We all tried to put that out of our minds when we were playing baseball and things. Jennings was always full of vim and vigor. One thing I remember about him was that he did not like carbonated drinks. He always had to have something non-carbonated. I remember that he read voraciously. His father was a very good medical doctor in Ogden. His mother was a dear but rather homespun. We formed cliques. We had what we called the 26th Street Gang which was the street we lived on. We had about six or seven of us that used to play football in the street and then we'd go skating over bumps and things like that. It became the center of activity. We all grew up to bond. Those people in my early ages were the people that stood with me through the ages and today are still my best friends. It was a phenomenon that we all had the same interests and it was a matter of getting along without any money. We created our own fun outside of the theaters. For instance, on Saturday I would go down to my dad's office at Boyle Furniture and I'd say, "Dad, I want to go to the movie." So he'd give me twenty five cents. That twenty five 6 cents covered my bus fare down and back from the Paramount Theater, a bag of popcorn and I would sit in the front row as close as I could get for these cowboy movies because it was thought at that time, the closer you were to the action, the better off. I'd get out of there and I'd be blurry eyed. I couldn't see for five minutes when I got out of the theater. One thing that I do remember very vividly was Christmas. In Ogden, in the thirties, there were several department stores including the Emporium and Lowe's where they had Christmas displays with electric trains and everything like that. I used to spend hours looking at these various things and hoping against hope that we would be able to get something of that note. Christmas night my brother, my sister and I would go to bed early hoping that Santa Claus would get down the chimney. We had a chimney. I never did understand how he was going to get down through there. My mother put out the cookies with milk and we'd go to bed early and get up at four o'clock in the morning to sneak up the stairs and look and see what Santa Claus had brought. Quite often it was a bowl of hard candy and an orange, a piece of clothing and an inexpensive game. We kept hoping for a train set but we made the best we could. We survived. I became aligned with my closest friends that I loved. About the church— my mother was a devout Mormon. She would have been in the bishopric if they had allowed women. My father was a non-believer, a great man but did not actively participate. I was obliged by my mother every Sunday to go to church with my friends. We diligently went in and passed the sacrament and obeyed what we thought were the laws of the church until such time when I think I was 7 about sixteen or seventeen. The bishop came down the aisle and got me by the arm and said, "Ted. I think it's time for you to go on a mission." That shocked me. I think I just said, not negatively, but that I was not really interested at that time. My truest friends—all of them followed the same line of reckoning, so I wondered at this time, what was it? Was it peer pressure? We all had the same idea at that time that we were not going on missions. It was etched in stone. After we graduated from Polk School, I went to Central High School down at 26th Street and Monroe. Believe it or not, those two years are negative. I have nothing really factual that I can remember of any note. In other words they passed by me without any real essence of any happenings at all except the music instructor there said, "Ted, you've got a wonderful voice. You should go out and use that voice." I remembered that. So off we went to High School at dear old Ogden High School on 28th and Harrison. We were the third class and that's when I really grew up. It was a new atmosphere. The ambiance, the people, the teachers, the location all struck me as being something super. I guess you could say I was a jokester all my life and I got by with my wits. In other words, I was always cracking jokes and breaking up people. I became very popular and joined the social clubs there. I knew quite a few people. But I do remember something, this was pre-war, they had ROTC. It was officer's training school. We were obliged to go out on the campus and parade around for an hour and then after that they selected officers from our group to lead. These were the power makers. This bothered me enormously. I was not selected. I was a private. All my friends were colonels, majors, captains, etc. I was obliged to walk through 8 the ranks as a private. I thought, "Well, this may be my life. Maybe I'm not going to make anything out of it." But I did make some very good connections there. I loved the people there. Our actual basketball team were the state champions. We were honored in Salt Lake. We had, what I think Tom Brokaw would call the finest generation. I would consider that our class of 1940 was exceptional as far as the quality of the people and what they did and the environment we were living in. ROH: Can I ask you a question real quick? Tell me the names of some of your friends at Ogden High. Who were your best friends? EB: Jack Luddington, who I'll talk about incessantly. Jack Dalton, Bill Hinds, Jennings Olson, Richard Stine, Parry Thomas. Here's something that you want to wire in. Parry Thomas and I were very close and Parry Thomas probably was the leader of the pack, as far as what happened to the graduates. Parry became president of a prestigious bank in Las Vegas. He became a very big factor in banking in Las Vegas. Bob Bishoff who was president of I think the Commercial Security Bank and Maurice Richards, a prominent attorney. It was a time when Ogden was at its apex as far as producing people of culture with the ability to move on. One thing I noted that in our parking lot there were probably five or six cars of people that owned cars. You go by today and there's hundreds of them out there which is an indication of time and change. I still, at that time, had no real love connections. I think a lot had depended upon that my family had no car so I depended a lot on double dating and taking girls out like that. I had a lot of very close female friends but nothing serious at 9 all. I would go to the prom by myself and my friends would put my name down and I'd dance with their female partners. ROH: Did you call that stag? We always call that stag when you went by yourself. EB: Yeah, I went stag. I enjoyed the dance with other people's partners. I was awe stricken by the campus. It was so beautiful in 1940. It was constructed for less than one million dollars and one of the advisors to building was Meryl McClanahan whose son was Richard, a classmate of mine. After we graduated many people went their different ways and I went home and I said, "Where do I go from here?" I knew we had very limited means. I had no money myself. My dad couldn't afford anything. So Dad scratched up enough money for tuition for Weber Junior College. Quite a few of the students there were on short hook as far as money. The money class went to Utah or BYU. We arrived down on the campus of Weber College and it was very, very small in relationship to what I had pictured. The student body and my class were something like 180 people. We were in a war by that time so that meant that there were very few people around. I thought while I was there that I still wanted to be a forest ranger because of my likes of being outside, hunting and fishing at the cost of the government, and so that was my theory. I wanted to graduate from Weber College and then go on to Utah State where they had a forestry school. I became involved with the Excelsior Club, which was the premier social club. I made lots of friends. I think my personality lent itself to making friends. I was like a loose cannon. I always felt like I had to make light of anything and I think that was a big hit down there. 10 I became very close to [Henry] Aldous Dixon who was president of the College. His son, John Dixon, became Director of the University of Utah Medical Center. I made new friends. I found at that time that Ogden had a history of being a Mormon town. In other words, if you were Catholic, you were on the wrong side of the track. I had wanted to date a girl who was a Catholic. My mother found out about it and she had a fit. She was very down to earth and strong in her beliefs of the LDS Church. ROH: Did you have any friends who were African American? EB: Here we go. In the student body there was one black. His name was Willy Thomas and he was a huge, black, muscular athlete from Kansas. He was an outstanding track man and basketball player. He ran the hundred meter dash. I became very close to him out on track. I ran the track there, the mile run. I would joke with him and he would sometimes take it as offensive and then he'd say, "After I thought about you Ted." I was chuckling to myself. I became very close to him. Another example was Wat Misaka who was of Japanese origin and an excellent basketball player. He has been honored nationally. I became very close to him. At that early stage in my life it became apparent that I had no racial problems. I had made my point there at Weber College and found that later on in life, that's what often led on to what I did and where I went. Anyway, I took fond memories from Weber College. I thought that the beauty of that college at that time was the smallest of the class, the informalities, the attention from the seniors as to coming in to classrooms and talking to you. You felt like it was a family operation, totally family. It was a wonderful thing. 11 Aldous Dixon lived on campus in a small house right there. Later on when I went in to the war—my family would tell him what I was doing over there and he would write to my family and say Ted was going to be okay. I also liked the small classes at Weber. We had a lot of help from a very professional teaching staff. As an aside, I purchased an expensive oil painting of Farrell Collett who was once the head of the art department at Weber College. ROH: Nice. EB: Anyway, I always imagined myself as being an athlete. I had a very strong arm and I could throw the football farther than anybody on the football team but I was so fragile that I knew that once I was hit I was down. So I never did participate in football or basketball. But I was on the tennis team at Weber College. By the way, while I was in high school I was city champion in several contests there and I would ride down on my bicycle to Liberty Park, and I would have one racket with maybe a string broken. In one case, a prominent citizen would come up in his convertible in white shorts with a racket and the contrast was startling. I had a tremendous forehand but no backhand so I would always attack from my forehand and try and cover up my backhand. I was fairly successful because when I was younger I used to pound the back of our house constantly with a ball. That's where I developed my forehand and the serve was tremendous. But my backhand did not exist so I lived by playing around that. It was one of those things. As we progress along, the war was coming closer and closer so a group of us, after graduation from Weber College, decided to go to Utah State. Five of us 12 went to Logan and moved into in a house near the campus. We managed to survive. I joined the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity, which was a premier club. I was very comfortable on the campus. Then my dearest friend Jack Luddington, who I mentioned before, had been taking pilot training out at the old Ogden Airport, and he said, "Ted, things are closing in. The Air Force is having a meeting in Ogden for possible applicants to join the Air Force. Do you want to go along with me?" I said, "I don't know." Then he talked me into it. I said, "Yeah, we'll get drafted if we don't." So we went in there for the physical, I think I weighed 138 pounds. The Army Air Force medical guy said, "You don't qualify. You're too thin. But I want you in here. Go home and eat about three pounds of bananas and come back tomorrow. See if we can fudge you in there." Low and behold I gained a pound or two and he said, "You're in." My friend Luddington, who was not a genius either, as far as his ability to score well on tests, was the last one out of the class. He sat down and I said, "Come on Luddington." He finally made it and we both joined the Air Force and left Salt Lake City on the train for Santa Ana, California. We arrived and there were 20,000 cadets at our base. We were separated after we took the tests to find out what our abilities were. He was assigned as a potential pilot and I was assigned as a potential bombardier. So after we graduated from the base in Santa Ana I was assigned to Roswell, New Mexico which was a bombardier school. Jack went in to pilot training on the California coast. I arrived in Roswell and found that we were dealing with the Norden bomb sight which was highly prized by the German Air Force as being something they 13 would like to have in their power. So, while we were in training, we always had to carry a .45 revolver and treat the bomb sight as a most valuable item. We would practice bomb day and night. We were expected to drop the bomb in a five hundred foot circle from five miles high. The blue practice bombs had ninety-eight pounds of sand and two pounds of spotting powder. The Air Force kept washing out cadets. I would call my mother and say, "I'm still in here but the ranks are thinning." When I finished, I got a short leave to go home to Ogden and I showed off my wings. Then I was assigned to Hondo, Texas for navigational training. Hondo wasn't too far from Austin, Texas, where my Aunt Clara lived with her billionaire husband. She invited me to go up there on the weekends. She let me sleep late and she fed me well and I was in seventh heaven. After we were through with Hondo, we got our orders to form our strategic bomb group in Salt Lake City, at Kearns Army Base. I thought it was nice to be back near home for a few days. Our plane crew was made up of crewmen, pilot, copilot, bombardier, navigator, and six gunners. We named our plane 'Lassie and Her Lads' because we had a gorgeous spray painting of Betty Grable wearing a swim suit on the tail. We were a composite group of the Midwest and far West. We trained in Dyersburg, Tennessee. Then we moved on to West Palm Beach Florida for our final training. From there we got orders to go to Trinidad, West Indies. We flew by ourselves. The landing strip was in the jungle and we were in there overnight. The next day we took off for Belem, Brazil. We flew over the Brazilian forest for ten hours and I said to the navigator, "If we go down in 14 there, we're done for. They'll never find us." From an overnight in Belem we flew to Fortaleza, Brazil, which is on the tip of Brazil. The next stage was thirteen hours flying over the Atlantic Ocean. We took off at night. We were flying a thousand feet over the waves in order to save on fuel. I was in the nose, as usual, and we encountered St. Elmo's fire, which was an electrical discharge carried to our guns. I thought we were being fired on. It was phenomenal to see. We arrived in Dakar, Senegal in North Africa. That was an eye-opener. As we landed, a multitude of Senegalese warriors came out with guns and top hats and surrounded our plane in order to protect it. They put us in canvas tents and as we relaxed, the Senegalese came through with their spray guns for malaria and they sang as they went through and sprayed us. Our next stop was Marrakech, Morocco situated high in the Atlas Mountains of North Africa. We went into town to visit the markets and old French restaurants. Towards the evening we decided to visit the French Foreign Legion outpost in Marrakech. We asked the commander if we could watch their parade in the evening and he said we would be their guests of honor. That night we froze to death and slept in our plane. The next morning we got orders to go to Tunis, North Africa. We flew across the Sahara and landed at a deserted German Luftwafee air base that was used during the Montgomery and Rommel desert war. We visited the ancient aqueducts there and marveled at how they had been built. We also visited the ruins of various German Luftwafee planes and we were warned not to take anything because everything was booby trapped. 15 We received our combat orders and flew from Tunis to Foggia, Italy and landed at a deserted air field that had been occupied by the German Luftwafee. We went to our canvas tent and proceeded to locate the mess hall. We thought the food was not very tasteful, so we bartered our provisions for local products such as fresh eggs. Our group was the 463rd bombardment group commanded by Colonel Frank Kurtz, who went back in history to the invasion of the Philippines by the Japanese. His airfield was attacked by Japanese bombers and several of the American B-17 bombers were split in half. They put one piece of a bomber into another and called it the Swoose—half swan, half goose. Colonel Kurtz was the chief pilot of that plane, which is presently being restored in the United States. We got settled into our base and our first mission was what we called a 'milk run.' That was to indoctrinate one without fear of major casualties. As the bombing missions progressed, they became more deadly and losses mounted. Then it became one of marking down. You had to make fifty missions as related to a loss of three to four percent of the planes each time we went out. As the missions increased in intensity, we finally came to a mission where the target was Ploesti, Romania. For the Germans, the Ploesti oil fields were a source of oil for their entire military operation. It was heavily guarded by flak guns and F-190s and ME-109s. They were the elites of the German Air Force. When we found out we were going to Ploesti, everyone sighed, had their breakfast, went out to put in their bomb load, and proceeded to taxi out to the runway. 16 By the way, the air fields were metal strips, not cement, and the B-17 loaded with 6,000 pounds of bombs, 2700 gallons of high-octane gasoline, does not get off the ground very quickly. At the end of the runway there was a fence. I was in the nose of the plane and remarked to the navigator, "This plane's not going fast enough to get off the ground." Finally we cleared it by about a hundred yards and went up into our formation at 15,000 feet. Over the Adriatic Sea, everyone discharged their machine guns to make sure they were firing. Then we went over the Yugoslavian Alps. The Yugoslavians were not allies at that time and they had flak guns mounted on top of the mountains. They shot at us, but weren't very effective as they didn't have advanced radar. We flew into our target area and our escort fighters, which were P-38s and P-47s peeled off because they were short of fuel and headed back to their base. They left us unescorted as we approached the target area. There were three or four hundred planes forming a line at what was called, the 'initial point.' This enabled German aircraft guns to zero in on our direction and altitude. I took command of the plane, flying it as we approached the target area. As we neared the target area we saw a huge black cloud box where all the German flak guns were concentrated. I saw planes going through that box and going down on fire and we knew we were next. It was very trying and tested ones fortitutde to the maximum. As we approached closer to the target, I cranked in the airspeed, the velocity, the wind, and other data into the bomb sight. The two indices cross and you know you're on target. I'm watching carefully and finally the indices cross 17 and I say, "Bombs away." The bombs are released and we turn away with planes on fire on both sides of us. As we left the target, if any of the planes in our formation had an engine out and they trailed the pack, they were attacked incessantly. You had to keep a tight diamond formation with seven planes, which also gave you more firing power against the enemy. So as we came away from the target and headed back, we were still alive. Then we started talking about if we had enough fuel to get home. As we neared the Adriatic coast, we started planning whether we were going to make it or whether we were going to ditch. We'd all had training as far as what to do. We finally arrived in the vicinity of the airfield and landed. We were interrogated and had our hot chocolates and donuts and tried to unwind. In another mission, we lost all of our commanding officers and crew in a mid-air collision caused by cloud coverage. In another occasion after takeoff to return to base, we had instructions that the mission was aborted. Our chief pilot, who was later a noted neurologist from Boise, Idaho, turned to our copilot and said, "Why don't you handle this landing." We turned towards the runway and I noted there was a crosswind and the copilot wasn't factoring that in. As we approached the runway, I said, "We're in trouble." We hit on the left landing gear and bounced about fifty feet up in the air and came down with the engines chopping up the runway—with 6,000 pounds of bombs and 2,700 gallons of fuel. I said, "I'm dead." We slid for about five hundred yards and the minute we stopped I yelled for everyone to get out and I ran for about a half a mile and dropped down and covered my head. For some time the rescue crew wouldn't 18 get near the plane to deactivate the bomb load. I don't know why that plane didn't explode. [photo included] ROH: Let's pick up where we left off with World War II. You had survived a crash landing. You said it took a long time before anyone would go near it. EB: Gas was pouring out over the engines and the bombs were banging against each other. We stayed away for a long time and then the emergency crew hosed it down to cool it off. ROH: Did they send you on vacation after that? EB: No, the policy was that you could fly twenty-five missions and then you could take a week off and go to the Isle of Capri near Naples to unwind. My theory was that I wanted to get out of there as fast as possible so I didn't take the vacations. I flew my missions because I wanted to get back to the States. The B-17s flew between twenty and twenty-seven thousand feet. It was thirty degrees below zero—freezing. Non-pressurized cabins. Ice formed down the face of your gear. No relief tubes. We had flak suits on and our parachutes hooked on one side, then we had a helmet. It made it very hard for us to move around. On another mission, we had a misfire in the bomb bay as two bombs had banged together and did not detach. The pilot said, "Boyle, get back there and release those bombs before they blow up." In the B-17, between the front part of the plane, the bomb bay, and the back, was a rail and two supports. As I walked over it, I was looking down at the Mediterranean from 25,000 feet and holding on to a rail with one hand. I was trying to release the catch for the bomb that was 19 swinging against the plane. I managed to unhook the bomb and made a silent prayer as I returned to the nose of the plane. It was a terrible thing to fly eight hours on total oxygen at very low temperatures. It was bitterly cold. After a mission, the Red Cross would be there waiting for us with donuts and hot chocolate, then we'd be interviewed about the mission immediately. As the missions went on, I would write letters. I have over a hundred letters that I wrote to my mother that she kept. I began to wonder if I was going to make it or not. On my fiftieth mission I was flying with another Utahn, Clyde Hart, and he knew it was my fiftieth mission. When we landed, I got out of the plane and kissed the ground. Before that, on a raid over northern Italy, we had some terrible problems from damage to the plane. I managed to get the bombs on target and two weeks later I was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. After my fiftieth mission, I said, "I've done it!" We got ready to depart and the fifteenth Air Force came out with a memorandum saying, "Unfortunately, we have a shortage of flight crews, so you can have thirty days' leave in the United States, then come back and serve another fifty missions." I wrote to my mother and said that was a death sentence, I would never come back. Fortunately, they reversed that. I left Naples on a troop ship on July 26. We were in the upper part of the boat and on the decks they had thousands of people who were fleeing France and Italy. They had no place to sleep, so they slept on the deck. We were in a convoy surrounded by destroyers, but we had reports of submarines in the 20 area, so we were dropping death charges. That was scary. We arrived in New York. I took a train from New York to my home in Ogden. My first few nights in my family home, I would wake up screaming. I hadn't unwound yet. I would try to find ways and means of winding down. After resting at home, we were sent to a camp in Santa Monica to continue to decompress. My combat days were over, thank the Lord. I was assigned to San Antonio Air Base, and then I spent a series of time moving from one air base to another. I kept in mind that I might be called to duty again. I applied for pilot training in the Air Force and I was accepted. I was assigned to Thunderbird Field in Phoenix, Arizona. The field was also occupied by Chinese cadets who thought nothing of flying into you or on top of you because they had no reason for flying etiquette. In that area of Arizona, there are always hot air drafts. After I had gotten to the point where I was flying solo, I was landing the plane and unbeknownst to me, the pocket of hot air was pushing the plane up and I didn't compensate for that factor. I pancaked and spun around on the landing strip. Thankfully, I wasn't hurt. Immediately I went on a flight check. The instructor, a pilot named Carl Thigpen said, "Ted, you're a good pilot, it's unfortunate you've painted yourself into a corner." They washed me out of the program. I eventually ended up in Denver, Colorado where I was released from the Army-Air Force. ROH: Did your older brother serve as well? EB: No, he had a medical problem. He was a dare-devil—totally different than I am. He parachuted out of a plane in Ogden in 1934 at the age of seventeen. It was a 21 high school bet with his friends. The owner of the airport told him he had to have his father's permission, so Billy called our dad and said, "Dad, I'm going to jump out of a plane, you have to give permission." We sat on the front porch and watched this biplane circling up and then a parachute drop. He became a champion ski jumper in the 1930s. He became an expert on Ecker Hill which was adjacent to Park City. It was a humungous, steep hill, and it attracted a bevy of Norwegian ski jumpers. They formed a cartel and would have jumping contests. My dad and I would go to watch my brother jump. He did exceptionally well at that. After that, he went to California and raced cars. He had no fear at all. That was his life. Later, he became a dreamer. He got into real estate and everything was going to be a million dollars. He was an alcoholic. He became an advisor in Santa Monica for a bevy of movie stars and famous people who would call him at two o'clock in the morning, "Billy, I got a problem." He never quite made it financially. He was always engrossed and saying, "I just got to get this guy to sign this and then I've got it made." It was always touch-and-go with Billy. We were very different. ROH: Did he write to you while you were gone? EB: I've got a ton of letters. Hazel and I are always wondering about who's going to give a hoot about these letters after we're gone. Billy was a great personality. He could walk into a place and immediately have people around him. He eventually ended up in a nursing home in Santa Monica and Hazel and I would go diligently and take him milkshakes and candy bars. The next day he would say that people 22 had stolen them from him. I said to Hazel, "Now that I've seen this in my brother, when it comes time for me, I'm heading for the hills with a Pepsi." It taught me a lesson in assisted living. He was my protector when I was young. My sister was a beauty queen from the get go. She did modeling in Salt Lake City and she was a prom queen. She married well—Ed Haas who was one of the producers of "The Munsters." She traveled in high style in Santa Monica with him. We had the same experience with her in assisted living that we had with my brother. ROH: So none of you worked in the Boyle furniture store? EB: This is fun. I thought from day one that I was going to be selling furniture for the rest of my life. I worked in Boyles as a delivery boy and not withstanding my frail structure, they put me on a delivery truck to haul stoves to second floor premises. Then I handled the store elevator covering three stories which didn't have an automatic stop. During the Christmas season we'd have a pile of customers on the third floor and I'd try to judge where the first floor was and end up sliding clear to the bottom and have to go back up again. HB: You'd better start telling her what happened to change your life. EB: I haven't got that far yet. Anyways, after I got out of the war, I was twenty-three and I was looking for companionship. I had bought a car during the war for my family, who had never had one. I met a girl and we had a relationship. Her name was Gloria and her dad was the music instructor at Weber College. Things were progressing. I was an avid skier and we were in Snow Basin and I told her she 23 needed to learn to ski faster and she went down and fell and broke her leg. Things went from bad to worse after that. Another day, I was at Snow Basin skiing by myself. I was the last man on the hill. The ski patrol had gone and I wanted to do one more run. On the way down, I fell and spun around and stopped near where the gate was. I got up and decided I was okay, so I was going to do another run. Remember, there was nobody on the hill. I got on the ski lift and about half way up, my left knee started to hurt so bad I couldn't stand it. I rolled off the lift at the top. It was dark. I zigzagged my way down the hill, sitting down all the way. It took me an hour to get down. I went to the doctor and found out I'd blown all the tendons in my knee. I had my knee in a cast and I was the house boy at the Pi Phi house in Salt Lake. I was living in the basement with about thirty Pi Phi's as residents; one of them being my sister. I got all the dirt about what had happened on dates—the girls would sit at the kitchen table talking about their dates as if I didn't exist. One day a group of young men in the lounge were talking about the Thunderbird school in Glendale, Arizona. I thought, "Wow. That sounds good." So I made an application to enroll. I was accepted—I still had my leg in a cast. I set out for Phoenix by myself in the winter with my left leg in a cast. I got near Cedar City and it was black ice and I skidded off the road and tipped over in a ditch. This was 6:00 in the morning. I got out and hobbled down the road to an all-night café. There were several patrons in the bar who offered me a drink before they went out to put my car back on the road. I arrived to Thunderbird school and decided I wanted to live abroad and work for an international company. 24 I decided I needed to work on my command of the Spanish language. My friend and I traveled to a small university in Morelia, Mexico. We lived rather sparingly with a Mexican family. After studies in Spanish, it came time to go home. We had practically nothing in our pockets, so we boarded a bus to Guadalajara. There were more chickens than people on the bus. In Guadalajara, we had no money for a hotel, so we went to a flop house that had a hundred beds or so. Bill and I went in and paid and we agreed that one would sleep and the other would stay awake because someone might assault us if we were both asleep. We had to go third class on the train to Nogales, Mexico. That was a laugh because it was full of immigrants heading to the United States and they were all pretty liquored up. We had no money for food, so when the train would stop, we'd get a stock of bananas. We were on the train three days and all we ate was bananas. Close to the border, we got off the train. Bill left his U.S. passport on the seat and had it stolen. Going through customs in Nogales, Bill went to jail because he didn't have a passport. Then they put me in jail because my passport, when we'd gone into Mexico with friends, had been stamped that I had brought a car into the country. So I was put in jail until they called the owner of the car and verified that the car was in Mexico City. I don't remember how Bill got out of jail. That was a journey never to be forgotten. After we graduated from Thunderbird—the beauty of the school, is that the people who hire, came to campus. I was prepping to get a job with Sears Roebuck. A friend of mine had scheduled a meeting with a Citibank officer from New York. When Citibank found out my friend was married, they said no. My 25 friend said to me, "Ted, why don't you interview in my place?" I asked for an interview and the first question their man from New York—Gordon Bullock— asked was, "Why do you want to go to Latin America?" I said, "I have an uncle who runs the largest sugar cane factory in Puerto Rico and if you hire me, I think I can get the account." I made it up off the top of my head on the spot. [Laughter] I walked off to get ready for Sears Roebuck and a week later I got a telegram saying Citibank had accepted me. They had to write for references. Not far from me lived two very powerful lawyers, George Lowe and Roy Thatcher. They wrote letters to Citibank. Then I asked my dad, "Dad, I'm at a crossroads here. I don't know anything about Citibank." My dad said, "Ted, the only people who are important in Ogden are doctors, lawyers, and bankers. Go for it." I accepted Citibank and said goodbye to Ogden. I got on a train to New York and went to the YMCA with the other trainees. I stayed seven days in New York and they shipped me off to San Juan, Puerto Rico. San Juan was our training base for South America. The people there were very friendly, we practiced our Spanish, and we learned about banking—that including carrying the golf bag for the managers when they went golfing. My family came to see me. They had never been out of Ogden, Utah. My mother has a diary of everything that happened. She even wrote about my dad listening to the motors on the plane. We had a lovely time. I think that was the biggest thing to ever happen to them in their lives. As it came time to depart from San Juan, they told us, "You trainees have three choices, you can go to Havana, Cuba," which was pre-Castro, which was a 26 great place, "or you can go to Mexico City," which was number one, or Bogota, Colombia. I'd never heard of Bogota, Colombia. For some unknown reason, I chose Bogota. I arrived in Bogota at 8,600 feet in altitude. It rains about every other day. It's in the top of the Andes with ancient Indian culture all around it. I settled into an apartment with another trainee and we lived the buena vida—the good life. He was a football player from Ohio State named John Mack—a very joyful guy who would fit in any crowd. We played fifty-four holes of golf in one day. We had a great time. We dropped golf balls out of the windows to watch them bounce on cars and roll down the street. A friend who liked to drink went out and got locked up and couldn't find a way home. The police called the wife of the other man with him and asked if she wanted to come down and bail him out. She said, "Hell no. Leave him in there." She was furious. Anyway, we had a wonderful time. Our chief officers at the bank were Boice Nourse and Juan Sanchez, a Castilian from Spain. It was just idyllic. We would play Liars Dice at the Anglo- American club and whoever lost would pay for lunch. We'd play against the manager and he wasn't very good at concealing his thoughts, so we got a lot of free lunches. We used to have vacations—we would get three months off after every two years and they'd put us on the Grace Lines ships to go up to New York. I'd go back to home in Ogden and I'd bought a car—my original car was a 1942 Chrysler Sedan that I'd bought during the war, then I bought another that I think was a Ford. Back in Ogden, I reunited with my old friends but I felt like I was out of place with them. In the interim period, I was doing well in the bank and 27 learning about the theory of banking. Citibank was the world leader in international banking. We worked with governments and with major organzations and their subsidiaries. We were not oriented towards individual banking. We worked with big-ticket items. In one of my trips North, I met a young lady from New York City, who was on the cruise with her mother. We became involved and were engaged when I went back to Bogota. One day I was working on the bank platform in Bogota and this young woman walked in and stopped the music. She walked down that platform with her gorgeous black hair and I thought this was the girl of my life. I hadn't even met her. When she walked in, I just thought, "Where have you been all my life?" ROH: What year was that? EB: That was about 1951. We dated about eight months. The bank had a policy that you could not date employees and I was engaged. I had a dilemma. I talked to my general manager, Boice Nourse and he said, "Ted, we'll make an exception as long as you play the rules of the game." Hazel loved peach melbas, so I asked her out to get one with me. I kind of dallied around. Finally I went out to meet her parents and find out if they were willing to let her date me. To the very strict in Latin America, this is how you go about dating. When her father saw that we were getting serious, he wrote the State Department to find out if I was married. He was worried about the Mormon religion and if a polygamist might be after his daughter. 28 Hazel and I started dating and I was in seventh heaven. I couldn't believe it because of the age difference. But we dated and then I got really sick. We had an idiot bank doctor and I went to him and said I didn't feel good. He said, "Do you chew gum?" I said yes. He said, "Then stop chewing gum." Well, I got worse and I started turning yellow. Hazel got worried and I went to another doctor. He said I had Hepatitis and he wanted me in bed resting immediately. I was in bed for three months. All I can remember of the treatment was that I ate a lot of hard candy because the doctor wanted to build up the sugar in my body. I had written to my fiancé in New York and told her that things had changed. She showed up in Colombia. The bank was having a big party and I ended up with Hazel and my fiancé in the same room. I just about died. I said to myself, "What have I done to deserve this?" I managed to make it through the night. I made the break with my fiancé and she went back to New York. Hazel's dad came over all the time while I was sick. He taught me to play bridge and he spent a lot of time with me. I think he was trying to make sure that this thing was real. His name was Edward Pierce Roskruge. Let me interrupt here to say that Hazel's biological father was German who I think was connected with the Colombian Air Force. When the world war came, he was called to duty back in Germany. Then Edward Pierce Roskruge married Hazel's mother. He was a wonderful Englishman and always very correct. I fell in love with him right away. He was there when I needed him. Anyways, so I managed to get out of bed to get married. We had the wedding in her house with a Catholic priest. It went well but Hazel had an affinity 29 for dolls. She had a huge doll she loved that she wanted to take with her as we were packing for the airport. I said, "No way, you're not taking that doll on that plane." ROH: How old were you two when you got married? EB: That was 1952. I was thirty years old and Hazel was seventeen. Anyways, we got to Barranquilla, which is a seaport at the head of the Magdalena River. Hazel took to married life with vim and vigor. She learned how to cook. She was a wonderful hostess. People there loved her. She became very active in the American Woman's Society. At that time, we made a lot of friends in Barranquilla. They had an international golf tournament one year and one of the players was a young man named Arnold Palmer. We were privileged to meet him and have drinks with him. That was the beginning of his career. My mother and father came to Barranquilla to visit over Christmas and that was a real treat for them. At those times, I rode the city bus. We didn't have enough money to buy a car. At one point, we were in dire circumstances financially. Hazel's father had given her a very expensive bracelet with gold in it and unbeknownst to me, she went to a pawn shop and sold it. When I found out, we went back to get it but it was gone. It was tough in the early days, but it was a learning process. My supervisor was from Brooklyn and from the old school. He was very gruff. He and I had several personality clashes. He would say, "This is the way we're going to do it." But I had a feeling that my ideas were better. When we got to the point where we didn't get along, I would go take a walk around the block 30 and then come back and sit down. He knew what he was doing but he did it with the old style. He hadn't arrived into the twentieth century. Among the American counselors was a gentleman named Harry Shlaudeman, who was a vice council and a super golfer from Pasadena, California. Harry, through his career, became the right-hand man for Henry Kissinger in Washington. The head American council was an elderly Scotsman who loved golf. One morning we were alerted that he was missing. We looked for him for three days and eventually he showed up and said, "I just fell asleep." We really enjoyed life there. When it came time to start a family, I witnessed the birth of our first daughter, Sharon Elizabeth. Everyone said she was beautiful just like her mother. Our second daughter, Linda Kay, was born in Cali. We almost lost her but she survived. When it came time for us to move to Cali, Columbia, I had the title of Pro-Manager. It sounds better than it was. I had been a sub-accountant. ROH: Why did they call you a sub-accountant? EB: It was something to show that one was just starting a banking career. We got our orders to go to Cali, Colombia. Cali was a wonderful place and we settled into a very nice house and I became the second in command there. I eventually became manager of that branch, which was a big success. We were very prominent there. I was president of the American Men's Society and Hazel was president of the American Women's Society. ROH: Tell me a little about these societies. 31 EB: It was a consortium of Americans who were working abroad and assigned to Cali. It was similar to a Kiwanis Club. The Americans and some prominent Colombians worked together to promote service activities to the community. Cali was the a center for the production of sugar cane, which is a major source of income for the Colombian government. We also had many pharmaceuticals plants, Quaker Oats and other multi national companies. Political unrest and local violence were causes of concern. In one instance, we had gone to a cocktail party at the American councilor's home and when Hazel and I got back in the car, I said, "Oh, it's drafty." Then I realized someone had removed the entire front windshield of the car. After that we would go down to an automotive spare parts store and see our windshield and buy it back. It was petty thievery. Another thing was if you were driving in thick traffic and had your arm out the window thieves would take your watch off your wrist. Cali was in an earthquake fault zone. One night I heard this thunder like a train approaching the house. It was a tremendous noise and the house was shaking badly and shook for about two or three minutes. It was a major earthquake and there was a lot of property damage in Cali. The next day we had big cracks in the masonry of the house. We were very fortunate in the banking industry to deal with high class business houses and individuals. We also had banking relationships with the Colombian government. There were very little dealings with individuals. Kim, our third daughter was born in Cali. I never questioned the superb quality of medical facilities in Colombia. So, our third daughter arrived and I'd 32 send telegraphs to my mother and father, "I've got another queen in the family." The girls went to the American schools in Cali. All of my daughters had dual nationalities, Colombian-United States of American, until they were twenty one. They were brought up strictly by their mother in the Catholic Church. From Cali we were transferred to Medellin. People associate Medellin as the center of the narcotic industry in Colombia. At that time there were no problems with narcotic trade. The only political parties were liberals and conservatives. There was a fierce political battle which was a concern. We had problems with rioters in the street in Cali. We had to close the branch because people were being shot in the street. Castro arrived with Che Guevara in Bogota and from that sprung out these problems with peasants up in the mountains who were ill-prepared to make a decision. They entered the Colombian political system of 1949 in addition to the conservatives and the liberals. It was a problem if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. There were instances when it was rather dicey to go certain places. An uprising would happen overnight and you would get caught unawares. But I do want to add that in Colombia, bull fighting was famous as it was in Spain. Bogota was very much connected to Spain. We still have films of bull fighting. My career was blossoming. I had been named manager of the branch, which was a major move. ROH: Can you give me an idea of the size of the branch? EB: I had over a hundred employees. The currency was pesos. When I arrived, the peso was at par with the dollar—if you had a peso, you had a dollar. When I left, 33 the peso was something like two cents to the dollar. It completely devalued. Much like what is happening in the United States right now, the government's economic policies were off-key. By the way, coffee represented a major portion of their exports and they lived off that, but they had almost every major natural resource but they lacked the funds to develop. They were passed by other world countries that didn't want to put money into Colombia at that time. So, the economics at times got out of balance at times. The Brazilian coffee was a lesser quality. The Colombian coffee was called "mam"; which meant "Medellin, Armenia, Manizales." That's the high grown coffee; the higher the area it grows the more valuable it is because it matures slower. Medellin was my next step. It was a larger area and more responsibility. It was the center of textiles for most of South America. Again, we were very favorably invited to join the community there. It was group of outstanding people we were associating with—both the Americans and Colombians. The manager of Citibank was on par with the American consul, as far as prominence, in any city we were in. So we were always on the top of the list as far as invitees for whatever might be going on. In Medellin, we had the fourth addition to our family. Sarah was born premature and it was almost a tragedy. The hospital there took such great care of her. There wasn't a minute when there wasn't a nurse there looking after her. That was our family. After our fourth daughter, I said, "That's it. I'm surrounded by women." But anyway, I think being in the international banking circle, you're dealing with people who are intelligent and sociable, usually the moneyed class. It was a 34 wonderful world. It encouraged you to step up and be a part of it. We dearly loved that. The one major incident when I took my life in hands was when I bought a car in Bogota. The individual had a late-model car for sale and I had to fly to Bogota to get it. My boss said, "What are you doing?" I said I was going to drive it back to Medellin. He said, "You're crazy." The road from Bogota to Medellin was undeveloped and had very few facilities. At that time, there were uprisings with the natives attacking buses, dragging people out and cutting their heads off. They called it "Corte de Franela." There were several massacres in that area. That was in the back of my mind, but I said I'd travel at night while they were asleep. So I left Bogota all by myself. I drove maybe seven or eight hours through areas where I saw nothing except a paved road. It was eerie and I kept thinking, "What am I doing?" I arrived in Medellin at about 5:00 in the morning. Hazel was thrilled that I made it. It was an idiotic thing for me to do. EB: Eventually, we sold that car and got a good price for it. Hazel was driving it about three days before we sold it and there was a truck parked with a piece of lumber sticking out of it. She went too close and the lumber went right through the front windshield and all the way back. She was okay. I went to the guy I sold it to and I was really upset. He said, "Don't worry. I can get a new one from Miami." We got a lot of letters from corporations saying thank you for the attention and help I'd given them as they got started in their business. I was on the board of directors of companies where we were involved in Medellin and Cali. They 35 wanted a local director with banking experience on their boards. They'd send the Chairman of the Board down to Colombia and I'd take him golfing. In Medellin, we were honored as a well-managed branch. I got letters saying that and that helped my career. I was a stickler for details and communication. ROH: Did you travel back to the states as part of your work? EB: No, we very seldom would go back to New York when we were in a foreign branch. Except when we were on furlough, I would normally spend a week or so in New York on my way to vacation. Hazel would take the children while I was in New York. I don't know how she did it—traveling with four young kids. She was a marvel. There was a group of expatriates in Medellin who ended up in Fort Lauderdale, Florida after their careers in Colombia ended. There seemed to be an exodus of American workers in Colombia going to Florida after. It had a Latin complex in Florida, and the weather was similar. After Medellin, I got a promotion and orders to go to San Salvador, Central America to be the manager of a huge branch there. They didn't have a house for us when we arrived, so we had the privilege of staying in a very high class hotel for about three months. That was a good life for Hazel. She didn't have to cook or anything like that. In El Salvador we had a problem with earthquakes. El Salvador lies right on a fault line. We had several earthquakes while we were there. Anyway, I was second in command at the branch in El Salvador. Our major clients there were coffee exporters, almost entirely. Then we also dealt with the Salvadorian government directly. We were on intimate terms with the president of El 36 Salvador. The ambassador to El Salvador was a gentleman from Phoenix, Arizona and his last name was Castro. He looked like a Mexican bandolero— black hair, moustache, had a gorgeous blond wife. He would call the American business leaders to a meeting on Wednesday and he wanted all the information he could get about what was happening so that he could report back to Washington. I was president of the American school there. We had Joe Borgatti, who was an innovative vice president. He did a lot of things of which nobody had ever heard. Nobody at CitiBank, at that time, had the privilege of having an airplane available to the chief officers. Joe said to them, "I'm in charge of Central America—Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, and so forth. I want to get a plane." So we got a push-pull. It's a plane that has a propeller in the front and one in the back. One of the things I organized down there was a league of soccer teams. Citibank was the champion of the tournament. Two things while we were there. One was when President Lyndon B. Johnson was trying to form better relations with Latin America. They decided they were going to have a big meeting in San Salvador and invite the heads of state from Central American countries. Citibank was encouraged to be a part of this meeting. The Mexican embassy said that Johnson liked cuff links with coins from the country he was visiting, so I was assigned to get to the local jewelry store and get some coins that were delivered to him. We were part of the big entourage. We met the President and his wife and the two daughters. 37 The other thing that happened in San Salvador was the Chairman of our Board, George Moore, who was a genius in my estimation. He decided to come down with his wife, who was from a very prominent Mexican family. She was not very sociable. We decked out his room with flowers and when he walked in, he said, "Is this for my funeral?" He had all of the young, gung-ho businessmen in San Salvador come to the swimming pool at 6:00 in the morning and swim with him. Then he would have breakfast with them and talk about business. Hazel was in charge of a party for his wife. Hazel carried it off perfectly. The two big events were that we were going to take them around in our plane and show them Honduras. The plane was small and Mrs. Moore was rather large, so when we went to get on the plane, she said, "George, you think I'm going to get on that plane? Never." She walked off. We had to run around and get a commercial plane to take them. The crowning event was a party on an island resort owned by the coffee barons. I happened to be walking along the path and Mrs. Moore crossed in front of me and she wanted to sit down. I suggested she sit in a hammock. Well, she got in the hammock and it broke. She's on the ground and said, "Don't touch me." I said, "I'm going to get fired whatever I do." I didn't dare touch her. She rolled off and dusted herself off. One of our prominent clients was elderly but liked to fly. He flew his own plane over there, but the weather worsened. He insisted he was going to fly back to the air base. His son told him not to so he took off unbeknownst to them. He took off into the clouds and got lost. The Salvadorian air force had to find him and guide him down. 38 There was a war of sorts between Colombian and Honduras. They called it the "soccer war." They got very serious about soccer. I think the end result was a Honduran plane dropped a bomb in the ocean near a port city. There was no actual exchange, but there were a lot of words. The president of the country would ride around on a motorcycle; he was very flamboyant. He would come to our office like that. But the people we dealt with were delightful. Most had made their money exporting coffee. We carried a lot of memories out of that. A lot of our clients were from the moneyed class and they didn't want to deal with Salvadorians or Hondurans or Colombians for tax reasons, so they wanted to confide in us. We were an intermediary. ROH: How long were you in El Salvador? EB: Three years. I was the manager and we had about twelve officers reporting to me. ROH: Did you have the young rookie kids like you coming up through the ranks? EB: We had people who were doing what I was—coming up through the ranks just two steps behind me. We always had trainees or American staff. Then they decided that I needed to go back to the domestic side, so we packed up and ended up in Wilton, Connecticut. The agent who sold us the house was married to a man who was a Citibank manager. We had minimal funds to invest; I still was not making any money. But we let her take us around to see houses. This was 1965 or 1966. She asked how much money I had and I said I had about $46,000. So she started showing block houses to Hazel. Hazel didn't like them. Nora said she had another that might be available. It was a two-story colonial 39 home with two acres of woodland with an immaculate four bedrooms. It was everything you'd ever want. Hazel wanted it. Nora said it was out of our price range. Hazel said, "That's my house." We managed to get that house in the low-forties. It was idyllic. In Wilton, I commuted on the New Haven railroad for five years. I think it was from 1968 to 1973. I was working in our head office in what we called the Overseas Unit for Individual Banking. People from all over the world would come in and want to talk about their money in Liberia and Japan, and so on. I worked in that area during those years. Wilton was a wonderful area. The highlights there were two intercontinental trips from Wilton, Connecticut to Long Beach, California in a station wagon. Those trips were classic. I told the girls that they'd seen the United States from thirty-thousand feet but that they hadn't really seen it. Well, we got into the station wagon, loaded to the gills, with the four girls in the back trying to get comfortable. We'd go from one stop to another and see things along the way. We always stopped at the Holiday Inns and the girls went straight to the pool. We traversed the country and saw everything. The girls saw America and it was a great growing-up experience. My parents lived near Long Beach and whenever we went there, we went to Disneyland. The cross-country trips were invaluable. I kept them on their toes with games like, "First one to see a white horse or a yellow Volkswagen gets five cents." It was something that created memories. All of them talk about it. One memorable trip, our youngest, Sarah, was about five or six years old. We 40 stopped for gas and drove off and we were a mile away when we realized we'd left her. Nobody had counted noses. We got back and she was crying. It was one of those things. Hazel and I fell in love with Disneyland, too. On our fiftieth anniversary, we all went to Disneyland and they bought two blocks with our names on them in the area where they sell your name and it's there for eternity. ROH: When did your parents move to Long Beach? EB: After I left home. My dad had several close friends who had moved to Long Beach. Dad became an avid golfer at sixty-five and played almost until his death. My brother had lived there most of his life. My sister did very well there. Those trips across country were something else. The girls graduated from Wilton High School. Then they got ahold of me in New York and said, "Ted, how would you like to go to Monrovia, Liberia? We've got a branch there that is the central bank for Liberia and we also do international banking from there; it's an important link for us in West Africa." I went home and told Hazel. If I had been married to an American, I think I would never have had the opportunity to go because an American woman probably would not have adjusted. Hazel said, "Let's go." We got out library books and I got a post report. The first thing that caught my eye was that we had a house in a fifteen-acre strip with six other houses. That area around Liberia contained six of the most deadly snakes in the world. That influenced Hazel to buy riding boots for all the girls so that when they walked through the grass, there would be less of a chance they'd be bitten. There was also a lot of malaria. Our doctor gave us pills, which I think affected us all later in terms of our eyesight. We arrived there with a 41 dog and a cat. Our house had a river behind it that contained crocodiles. There were other animals, like apes and things. We were in the middle of an animal kingdom. When I got into the branch I got a shock. I didn't have a problem with blacks, but it was a cultural shock to walk in and see everyone in the branch was black except the manager and me. There was an adjustment there. We settled in and found out that we were the kingpins as far as the American banks there. The president of Liberia thought nothing of coming in at whatever hour of the day or night and saying to the manager of the bank, "I'm going to New York. I need some traveler's checks." We'd have to open the branch and get that for him. We had a problem with labor relations. The employees decided to strike because their white managers did not understand them—that was I and the other manager. We were in the hot seat there for a while. Hazel developed a friendship with the wife of the President through the American Club. They had a graduation ceremony and Hazel loaned Mrs. Tubman one of her chairs to sit on. During the ceremony, the lights went out and it was raining cats and dogs. They brought out some lanterns. It was a comic graduation. We were invited to a wedding of one of our employees. We were the only white couple there. When we saw the cake, there was a colony of ants crawling over the cake. The cultural shock—you learn to adjust to it and get involved with it. They had golf there but the greens were tarred, they weren't grass. The caddies didn't wear shoes so they'd go out into the rough and pick up 42 your ball—which is illegal in golf, but they wanted a tip—and there were snakes all along the fairway. From time to time, we would transfer money that was depreciated to the central bank. We had a cash officer and two guards when we took that money over to the central bank. On one day, we had branches up-country and he went to the cash officer said he wanted to take money over; I asked how he was going to do it. He said, "Our two Monrovia trucks are busy, so I'll get my chauffeur and my car and get a guard from the bank." I said, "So be it." So they drove over and parked in front of the Monrovia Central Bank. The guard got out and the driver stayed in his seat. Before the guard could get the money out of the car, the driver took off with the money in the trunk. We found the abandoned car. It was a national catastrophe—it was all over the news and all the borders were closed so they couldn't get out. For two days I was waiting. New York told me I'd better get the money back or I was in trouble. So, the guy who stole the money went to his brother's house and they buried it. The one who stole the money took enough to get to the Ivory Coast for vacation. There are two episodes. The guy with the money waiting for a taxi to take him to the Ivory Coast that's fifty miles away. The taxi driver said, "You haven't got enough money to get to the Ivory Coast." And the guy said, "Here." He put the money on the seat and the taxi driver drove off with the money. This is comic. Well, they got a hold of the guy and shook him down and he admitted to where the money was. It was wet and they were digging it up and all the bills were sticking together. So the Treasury Department said, "You've got to be down there 43 while we count this money." I spent three hours there while they were peeling dollar bills to be sure we got all the money back. Another thing—and this one was scary—Hazel and I, and our daughter, went to a show down in the center of Monrovia at night. Coming back, the car stopped. Hazel and our daughter pushed me over the bridge down to the bottom where there was a house. I knocked on the door and a guy came out. I said, "Here's ten dollars, if that car is still there in the morning, I'll give you another ten dollars." We took a taxi home. The funny thing was that our daughters were dating and they wanted me to take them into town. The roads were very narrow and had big drops. This was tribal country. So I'm going along the road at night and I see this car coming towards me on my side of the road. There was no shoulder and I dropped down about ten feet into a ravine—still upright with two of the girls in the back seat. Within five minutes, there was a tribe of indigenous people swarming the car. I thought we were going to be cannibal soup. Well, it took about twelve of these guys, but they helped get the car back up on the road. The compound had a guard at night. One of our junior officers was coming in at night and he went over to him and shook him. Well the native went over to his tribe headquarters and said he had been assaulted by an American. The tribal chief ordered that this man be arrested and go into a tribal court. The bank immediately said, "That's a problem." The only way we saved him was to transfer him out of the country. Then we had an incident of inside robbery. Hazel and I were sleeping in bed with our golden retriever next to me. My wallet was two feet from me. The 44 next morning I woke up and saw my wallet was gone. What had happened was we'd had a thief who had come in with a screw driver and broke through one of the windows. He got into our room and the dog growled but we didn't pay attention. The thief stole my wallet, then went down to the St. Paul River, took everything out and dumped the wallet. At that time, Liberia was ruled by elitists, the people who came by boat from the United States. They had the money and they ran the country. About ninety percent of the people had no money and had been kept under control by the people in power. Just after we left, they had an uprising where they took the president and his cabinet down to the beach, stripped them to their skivvies, and shot them. They gunned down the President of Liberia and eight counselors. That was when this John Doe became famous and was running the country and now things have calmed down. But it was a very serious uprising of the have-nots. Mind you, when they had a parade, they wore top hats and they wore canes—they didn't have any guns. It looked like Laurel and Hardy. We were there about three years and we were packing up to go back to the States—we'd about had it at that point. ROH: Were you doing better financially by this point? EB: No, we were barely hanging on. Anyway, we were scheduled to go back to New York after that tour and one of our senior officers from Athens, Greece was in Liberia visiting. I was talking to him and said I didn't want to go back to New York. He said, "Okay." And the next thing I know, my superior at the branch said, "How 45 would you like to go to Beirut, Lebanon." Well, there was a war going on there. But again, Hazel said, "Okay, let's go." It was eerily quiet when we landed at the Beirut airport. The taxi driver took us to the Bristol Hotel, which was one of the best in the city. We registered and Hazel and Sarah were the only females in that hotel for about three months. They were treated royally by the staff. It was an indication that it was a very dangerous situation. One day Hazel and I decided to go visit the ruins in Syria. Word got around that Boyle and his wife were going to visit the ruins. We got in a taxi with a reporter from New York. We rode up into the area occupied by the Syrian army. We got into Baalbek and we were stopped by Syrian police. They took our passports and wouldn't give them back until we left. The ruins were spectacular. We were the only tourists in any form in that area. We had so many near-misses in Lebanon. They burned the American Embassy. We were located on the Mediterranean in a high rise. We were on the seventh floor and there was a Saudi prince on the eighth floor. Unbeknownst to us, we were in a PLO area—the western side of Beirut was headquarters for Yasser Arafat. We had a bank there called the Bank of Lebanon and Kuwait. It was fifty-fifty with the Kuwait royal family. Our principle objective was to recover investments for our clients because of the war. We were in a tenuous situation. One of the most dangerous things I've ever done—I was obliged to do it. We had branches on the east and west sides of the city. The west was the Muslim side and the east was the Christian. There was a dividing line between them. At one point, the leaders of the Lebanese government decreed that they 46 were going to get some insurance money from the bankers in the area for protection purposes. They approached our offices on the east side and said, "We're going to keep people around here to protect your branch, but it's going to cost you this much." It was not a threat, but in order to continue to bank without being hustled or having people break into the bank, we sent the proposal to New York. They said, "Absolutely not. We cannot be taken to court on that type of issue. Just send down an ultimatum: we do not accept these terms." Well, someone had to take that message to the people in authority. We drew straws and I got the short straw. They said, "Ted, you are going to be an emissary. You're going to drive through an area that's highly contested on both sides and you're going to carry this message personally." I had to go down this road with enemies and firepower on both sides. We stopped near the headquarters of the Lebanese presidency. We were searched and they sat me in the hall to wait. One of the men that was ruling the country had been educated in the United States, so he had an English background. I was brief about it. I told him, "This is what has happened and we've been advised by our headquarters that we cannot do this." He said, "I understand." He shook my hand and I walked out. That was scary. With all this going on, it was very dangerous. Quite frequently, Hazel and our daughter would be flown down to Athens and I'd stay behind. When I'd get to go to Athens, I'd stay over the weekend and come back. The pilot would say, "I've got to find out which runway is open. There's firing on the north side, so I'm 47 coming on the south side so we won't be hit." While we were flying in, there were missiles flying around the airport. ROH: What did you think of Athens? EB: Athens was a dream come true. I had seen a little of the ancient history when I was in the Air Force in Tunisia—the aqueducts and all that. But when I walked around there, I just felt eerie, like it was unreal. It was hard to imagine the history that you were walking around. When we left Beirut, we didn't find out until we were ready to go that our body guards and the people who were hanging around in the lobby all the time were PLO—they were protecting us, unbeknownst to us. The golf course in Lebanon was laid out on the edge of the PLO firing range. The ambassador, I was told, carried a machine gun in his golf bag when he played. We had shrapnel coming down on us while we played. ROH: Did you have friends there? EB: Thanks to Hazel, we have had friends everywhere we've gone. We were involved with the government because of the banking industry. They had the American school there and this is where Hazel and our daughter were baptized. I got the idea, having bombed Europe and seen the desolation and the destruction, Beirut reminded me very much of a destroyed city. They had destroyed the business sector. Buildings were derelict. It was a mini world war for me. ROH: Did that cause problems in business for you? EB: Oh yes. This was an extreme case of merchants who took advantage of the situation and refused to pay us back. Recovery of assets was very difficult. They 48 knew what the situation was and we had very little clout. You never knew who would be the governing body. We were going to the airport, leaving Beirut, and our driver, innocently, drove through a road block of Syrian soldiers. They were ready to shoot us with machine guns. Another car drove into the line of fire and stopped—in other words, they couldn't see us anymore. He overtook us down the road and said, "I saved your life, what the hell were you thinking?" Our driver thought they were telling us to go on. That was our departure from Beirut. We went from there to Karachi, Pakistan. That was in turmoil too. The president had been convicted of crimes and they were going to execute him. They had killed several marines in our embassy in Islamabad. We got word from New York to get out of there. Hazel and our daughter were flown down to Athens again. I went underground with our people. It was a very tenuous situation when we first got there. There was a lot of demonstrating in front of the bank. Again, our bank worked closely with the government. Pakistan is famous for its textiles. They had an industry down on the coast that broke up old ships that were battle-worn. There was a big industry there for that. They had oil deposits, too, but textiles were their strongest industry. The entertainment there was centered around the American school, which was a premier school. In fact, the Pakistanis who had money would be on waiting lists for years to get their children in the American schools. I was on the board there. In fact, the head of that school was here recently in a tennis tournament for seniors—Tony Horton. He had traveled all over the world as the head of 49 American schools. We had, again, a very closely knit community. We were there for about three years. ROH: Was it better than when you were in Beirut? EB: Oh yes. There was an underlying community of the have-nots. The countries we were in at this time had a high rate of poverty. As a result, there were riots in the cities. It was a learning experience again. ROH: At this point were you thinking about retiring? EB: No, I was still active. I had become a resident vice president. My duties were managing our portfolio—the quality of our loans and making sure people were paying and all that. We took several tours up into the area where the book Three Cups of Tea was written. We were in that area, not quite as high as he was. It's very rural. It was kind of scary in a sense that there wasn't a real feeling that you didn't belong, but you had a feeling that you might be better off if you weren't there. The populous in Karachi was horrific in terms of slums—water and sanitation was a horrible mess. I understood why the have-nots had uprisings. Of course, spinning off from India, there was always a feeling that India was their big rival and there was a fear that India would come after them, and then they had the nuclear problem down there. Pakistan was a tinder box. After Pakistan, we moved over to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. That was an eye-opener. The bank there was called Saudi-American Bank. It was fifty percent owned by Citibank and fifty percent owned by the royal family. We also had a subdivision for females only. There wasn't a male teller in that division. We had 50 lots of meetings and instances—one where we had a Saudi princess with a lot of money who had a farm development out in the desert. They desired to have their own wheat, which cost ten times as much as it would have to import it from Canada. They have pivot wheels out in the desert with the wheat growing out there, and then the Saudis would have their estates out there. I was invited by a Saudi and the princess arranged for a luncheon. She had about sixty pieces of chicken for three of us for lunch. Our dealings there were really something. If you invited a Saudi of any importance, the wife never came. You never saw their wives in a social engagement. And there was enormous segregation. One of the things they told me was, "If you're driving down the street and a Saudi runs into you, you're liable. They say it wouldn't have happened if you weren't there." The philosophy is that you caused the accident because you were residing in their country. I had a terrible incident there with my health. The Saudi hospitals are staffed by Americans and have our equipment; it's just like an American institution, but only Saudis can utilize those services. My condition worsened and it was decided that I would leave the Kingdom. Our driver took us to the airport and I found that I had a missing document. They said I had to go six blocks to another location to get the document, but the plane was on the runway taxing without me. We raced over and they actually held the plane for thirty minutes for us. I was on that plane for thirty hours in terrible straights. But what I'm going to say is that if anyone in the royal family has hay fever, they head to Walter Reed hospital and take up a whole wing. 51 We dealt with Osama bin Laden's father. He was one of our biggest clients and continues to be one of the biggest powers in industrial equipment in Saudi Arabia. I can't document it, but I think Bin Laden was employed there in Saudi Arabia while I was there. It's funny. You don't have any poverty in Saudi Arabia. It's set up so that if you get in line and go tell the king you need a washer or whatever, he gives you the royal handshake and gives an order. You don't see poverty because the people with oil money keep the populace happy with that type of thing. They say, "Hey, I've got money." But religion—if they think that you are even getting together for religious purposes, they kick you out of the country. They consider that a deterrent to the kingdom. So Hazel and her friends would have secret meetings. They were told not to park close to the house, they would walk so that no one would see the cars together and think, "We got one." Our Air Force guarding the kingdom is a deterrent to the kingdom being overthrown. I think, militarily, our presence has been a big thing in saving the kingdom. Another thing that's interesting is once the Saudis get into the Saudi planes, they'll exchange their royal robes and put on their jeans. ROH: While you were there, was your daughter still with you? EB: Our youngest daughter was a threat—in other words there were restrictions that a young female could not enter the kingdom. They didn't want any western women walking around with the Saudi boys looking at her. So she couldn't get a visa to get in. I don't remember, but I think their laws prohibit interest on loans, making it extremely difficult to bank at a profit. You had to protect yourself with 52 collateral outside of the kingdom because the laws there would make it so difficult to foreclose on a property. You have to play their rules. It's an extremely difficult area to bank in. After Saudi Arabia, we came back to Wilton, Connecticut. At that time, I was approaching retirement and I took an early retirement there. I was sixty-two. ROH: What position did you hold at the bank? EB: I was Vice President for Citibank. ROH: Were you finally doing okay financially? EB: I've always thought in terms of the investments and stocks. Over a period of forty years or so, I've been fortunate. But you have to be patient. The average investor today with this market and all this growling about Wall Street and what's wrong. But what do we produce now? We've lost our keys—we were the kings of electronics and technology. We've lost everything where we could say we dominated. I think most of it is a labor factor of the cost value. You cannot compete with China and India where the person is making a dollar or two dollars an hour but Detroit wants fifty or sixty dollars for the same product. But I want to talk about several vacations. We went to Cairo and went down the Nile on a houseboat from the Aswan Dam clear to Cairo. Doing everything that tourists do with all the royal burial grounds. We got off at Luxor, which is kind of a tourist trap, and Hazel wanted to get a cartouche for each girl. While Hazel was dealing in the jewelry store, the owner of the shop came over and said, "Mister, I give you a hundred racing camels for your wife!" [Laughter] 53 Racing camels were thousands of dollars; it was millions he was talking about. I told him, "Give me a few minutes to think about it." That was hilarious. Our trip to Nairobi, Kenya was fantastic. I've always thought about big game. We got down there with three of our girls and we decided not to go with a guided tour. We got out to the base of Mount Kilimanjaro and we were right in the middle of all kinds of wild game. The next day I decided to go out in our car, by myself, and find the animals. I was going along the trail and low and behold, I see three lions loping by the side of the car. We've got pictures of them. Anyway, we got in there and saw lions, elephants, and rhinos, you name it. On the way back to Nairobi, I tried to drive through a dry lake bed but it was sandy and we got stuck. I finally got onto what you'd call a road and one of the girls smelled gas. I stopped and found that the gas line had parted. The girls put it together and put some gum around it to patch it. We stopped in a village of Masai natives who were about six feet, ten inches tall. We are the only white people in the village. They all had spears and red paint. We dealt with them and got a couple of spears from them. When we got back to our hotel, we headed out towards Mount Kenya. It was a very sumptuous place which was owned by a famous movie star—William Holden. It was like an Elizabeth Taylor movie—there were all these natives with turbans on and holding rifles. At night, you had a fireplace in each cabin and they'd come in and light the fire. It was, again, something out of a fantasy land. 54 Going back with the same car, the car was stopping and starting. We had to coast into Nairobi. We lucked out. But that trip was worth a million dollars. We really roughed it. ROH: Did you hunt while you were there? EB: No, that's too expensive. We did it on an economy budget. The other tourists would get on a bus and see a lion off in the distance, but we had them running right alongside of us. That was something. We spent several vacations in Switzerland. We had a close friend from San Salvador whose husband was a hotel manager. He had a chalet in the Swiss Alps near the border with France. We spent a Christmas there. Switzerland is very orderly. They have a lot of rules and regulations, and it's hard to get in, but I said to Hazel I would live there. Then we spent a Christmas in the Spanish Alps. We did Spain while we were in Saudi Arabia. We saw bullfights and where they grew the wine and all that. We went into Russia during the Cold War. It was 1976. The big thing there was a train ride from Moscow to Leningrad overnight. There was supposed to be an elite coach, but there were four bunks—no beds. Hazel and I and Sarah got in the train leaving the station and a middle-aged Russian male came in and said, "Mine," and pointed to one of the bunks. Then he stripped down and went to sleep there in our cabin. I thought that was hilarious. We were an oddity in Russia. We were at the Kremlin looking at Lenin's tomb and they were parading some of their Mongolian soldiers all dressed up. Hazel was standing around and a Russian lieutenant came up to her and said, "I take you." He served as our 55 guide and took us up through this church we wanted to see. Then we had our English speaking guide, an attorney. I said I wanted to give him something and asked if I could give him money. He said, "Absolutely not. They'll put me in jail." But he said he liked my jeans. So Hazel and I left a package on the back seat of the bus with my jeans in it and he picked it up. ROH: Where haven't you been that you might want to go sometime? EB: I think Australia. We were in Thailand and Hong Kong. I admire the Australians. I lost one of my best friends in the battle with the Japanese down there. My dad used to sing from South Pacific. I'd like to go there. ROH: You were very successful in the banking industry. What do you attribute your success to? EB: I think it was doing the right thing, first of all. No monkey business and a perseverance in cultivating human contacts—relationships with your staff so you didn't talk down to them. Like when we went to Nellis Field and a general came out in a flight suit like a normal trainee and I thought, "That's success—getting down in the trenches." Assimilating customs of the people and trying to understand what makes them work. In other words, why are we banking here, what do they want from us, and how do we go about it. I think relationships and how you treat people are prime—also, towing the line. We went where we were told. I attribute that to my wife because she was very flexible. Without her, I may have stayed in New York and not done any of this. The minute I said, "Pakistan," she said, "Okay." There was never any discussion or complaining. I attribute my success to my wife. She was with me in the trying moments. You have to have 56 support. Now that I've been talking to you, I've asked myself, "What if I had stayed in Ogden?" I could very well have been a salesman for Boyle Furniture for the rest of my life. It's hard to picture who was pulling the strings. Hazel always said God was looking over us and I think she's right. I think somebody was directing us through all this that we did. That's my problem now, I've run the mill and I think I have no more bridges to cross as far as advance or travel I'm content to just kind of sit back. Here in St. George there is a difficulty of communication because of where we were and what we did and our thoughts and perceptions. A lot of times, people turn you off; they're not interested. You get the idea that they want to talk about the local scene and the lack of water here in St. George. If our leaders would at least look at the world and look at what makes the world go 'round—and I stress religion—and try to understand civilizations that have lived according to the Quran for thousands of years and overnight you want them to change and you said, "We've got something better than what you have." I don't like isolation. I think we've got to understand what makes the world go around. China, Cuba, trade wars, and now they're undercutting us—so what? They've done the right thing; let's learn from them. What are they doing that we're not doing? What happened to our manufacturing abilities from the '50s and '60s when we were king of the hill? I think a lot of it is political, unfortunately. But I just wonder where we are headed and what our children's future will be. ROH: Do you keep in touch with people from Citibank? 57 EB: Oh yes, I have a lot of friends in Florida who I met in Colombia. I have my ex-boss in San Salvador and New York. He owns a bank in Bulgaria. He's been featured in Fortune magazine because it's the best bank in Europe. Joe Borgatti was my favorite. He was down to earth. But you get other people who get ahead of themselves because of their title or they want to isolate themselves from you and make you a lesser factor in running the bank. I've had some wonderful associations with people above me and I've had some I didn't like. ROH: What do you think about the changes that have happened with Citibank since you left? EB: We started out with the Rockefellers. In fact, Citibank is the oldest bank in New York. Through the years, leaders of the bank came from high society and we had people in there who were bankers by trade and by inheritance and they stayed the line; in other words, they held on to tradition and what we were good at. There was no variance. We had enormous control over our assets by our auditing departments. We held on to tradition under George Moore and Walter Wriston, then John Reed who was a genius but had a failing in personal communication. After Reed, you drop off. He was the last of the Mohicans. Next you get Sandy Weil who brought all of his ideas about insurance and things we didn't normally get into. He wanted to build an empire and we lost control of what we did best. Sandy did a tremendous job of building up assets, but he lost control of the inner workings and delegated too much. Then they made a bad mistake in naming Prince the president. He was an attorney by profession and knew very little about banking. We got off track. There was a law earlier that prohibited 58 banking activities outside of a certain area, like the derivatives and things we got into later. The derivatives were the downfall, they were dealing with assets they had no control over. I think Citi Group will survive because of all the help from the government but it back-fired. The major corporations, who used to be the pillar for the banking community, now have their own in-house bank. A depositor asks, "Will my money be safe with Citibank?" This goes right back to the economy. We don't have jobs and there's no money in circulation. ROH: How did you decide to create an endowment at Weber State? EB: "I have accepted this assignment with immense feelings of inadequacy, humility, and privilege, keenly aware that the man we honor and memorialize here today was, and is, a giant whose character, thought and deeds can never receive can never receive justice by the mere force of human utterance. Dr. Jennings G. Olsen is the only person I have ever known who is unqualifiably deserving of the title genius. One who, in fact, came closer than any of my acquaintances, of being a man for all seasons, as was said of Thomas Moore. Indeed, a virtual superman. I was an eighteen year old freshman just out of high school, anything but passionate about the need for an education. Wet enough behind the ears to have narrowly escaped drowning, my friend and new found mentor Jennings G, on the other hand, a man of twenty-five soon to receive his doctorate in philosophy from UCLA, had even read and absorbed more than most academics do in an entire lifetime. Along with the rest of my fellow students, I promptly found myself astounded by his incredible knowledge and memory, prodigious vocabulary, and his uncanny ability to quote chapter and verse from everything 59 and anything he had ever read. Even more importantly, his power to analyze, synthesize, and contain this ever-growing information within a context amendable to the humblest of intellects. Impeccably dressed in starched white shirts, ties and a sport coat, slacks inevitably pressed to a crease that would cut your hand, his cheery countenance well-scrubbed and glowing with vitality. Jennings was also the quintessence of organization. His lessons on Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and other greats, such as Augustine, were always carefully outlined on the blackboard and completed with articulate and meticulously exact due. One of his oft-expressed mottos read as follows, 'Organization and schedule are the keys to success.' Nevertheless, his presentations were rarely limited to straight lecture and he made ample provision for student response through carefully inter-related and challenging questions that required us to engage in the unique experience of actually thinking." ROH: Who wrote that? EB: Gordon Allred. This is a eulogy he wrote for the funeral. I'll give you a copy. [See Insert]. There's a picture of him at Weber College in his younger days. Let me tell you, Gordon Allred's father was Thatcher Allred, who was in a department at Weber College who was a dominating factor in stage production. His mother was a poet. He came from a very talented family. I have a book that Gordon wrote about the Japanese Kamikaze pilots. He spent some time over there with a pilot who had survived. The book is spellbinding if you're interested. HB: I don't think you told them that he was born with a handicap. 60 EB: He was born with a club foot and he participated in pole-vaulting. Nobody knew about it unless you were an intimate friend of his. He never divulged that. He had a professional singing voice. He performed in operas and sang on television. People that knew him, like I did from day one, admired his ability to surpass all of his difficulties. But he never, ever complained. I think he was a little bit above the crowd and very intellectually powerful. Perhaps it was overabundant to the average student. He delved into the topic of the origin of life in order to show students that there were two sides to the equation, but he never pushed it. He went into Darwinism and just said, "This is something that people think about it. I'm not telling you what to think." He opened their minds and wanted people to be able to think instead of just being told. From my perspective, Hazel and I had nothing to do with Weber State. Then we went into Ogden one day and saw the campus there and I decided to go take a look. Carol Biddle was the catalyst. I walked in to her office and I said, "I'm Ted Boyle and maybe I have some money to donate." She said, "First thing, I want you to read this book by Sadler." So I went home and read that book from front to back looking for indices of Jennings Olsen. There wasn't a single award. I noticed the lesser degree people were getting awards and I said, "What happened to Jennings Olsen? Why isn't he mentioned somewhere?" That triggered my interest. I went back to Carol and said, "I want to do something for Jennings Olsen." That's where it started. I think Jennings was probably not a sociable person. I think he may have isolated himself in his books and his will to increase 61 his knowledge of religion and the world. It was just his background. He came through hell and high water and he was a person who should have been eulogized at the highest level—with his physical problems and coming from kind of a broken home. I really think that Jennings was so worldly that Weber County wasn't ready for him. He got his doctorate from UCLA and I think he would have been president of the university there. I think he was misplaced and in this community he was misunderstood. He didn't get the recognition he deserved. ROH: You've created that recognition. EB: No, I haven't, and I am so displeased that not one dollar from his staff, his friends, his family—there hasn't been one. I say, "What am I missing?" You would have thought someone, in the total time he taught there, would have said, "He taught me something and I'm going to put ten dollars in." I'm being facetious. ROH: You should get credit for stepping up. EB: It's still not recognizable as something that is popular. I think it's something that's there, but it's not an attention-getter. I really think that Dr. Olsen was in the wrong place at the wrong time. His manner of attacking world religion and making people understand where we all came from. All he wanted was for students to open their minds and think. He wouldn't tell him it was right or wrong. I'm disappointed because I think I tried and there's nothing to show for it. I thought maybe it would catch fire but I think it's going to die a natural death. ROH: It's there and people can find it. We appreciate the fact that you did this because I, for one, wouldn't know anything about Dr. Olsen if not for you. But each person 62 who gives to the university does it in a way that they are passionate about. You never know what's going to happen. EB: Maybe someday it'll be like when they resurrect these ancient scholars. Unfortunately, he didn't produce any work of his own. I have personal letters but I don't know if they should be made public or not. We were so different—he was an intellectual and, as I told you, I barely got passing grades. Maybe opposites attract. ROH: Is there anything you would like to add before we finish? EB: I'm infatuated with Ogden still, though I've left, and I want to know what happened to the Ogden I knew in the 1930s and 1940s. I can imagine it was the railroad departure and the entrance of the supply depot and Hillfield. Maybe it attracted a lesser culture. But it was king of the hill—people from Salt Lake traveled to Ogden to shop. It was a place of honor. As Tom Brokaw said, "The greatest generation," I think the class of 1940 from Ogden High was the class of a generation. I'm not being facetious, but that class had more activity and more people who were going places and doing it with little resources. The final shot is the Ogden Standard Examiner. I felt that in the 1930s, and 1940s, and 1950s, the Standard Examiner got inside of what was happening in Ogden—the people and what they were doing and where they were going. It was a very informative paper about doings. It seems to me that they've gotten off track now. You don't feel like you're a part of it anymore. ROH: Thank you very much for your time.

Transcript of an oral history interview with W. Russell Todd conducted by Joseph Cates at the Sullivan Museum and History Center on May 16 and May 19, 2016, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project. W. Russell Todd graduated from Norwich University in 1950 and was president of the university from 1982 to 1992. In his interview, he discusses his thirty-two years of active duty in the U.S. Army as well as his experiences at Norwich University. ; 1 W. Russell Todd, NU '50, Oral History Interview Interviewed on May 16, 2016 and May 19, 2016 At Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Joseph Cates JOSEPH CATES: This is Joseph Cates. Today is May 16th, 2016. I'm interviewing General Russell Todd. This interview is taking place at the Sullivan Museum and History Center. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. OK, first tell me your full name. RUSSELL TODD: William Russell Todd. JC: When were you born? RT: I was born on the first day of May, 1928, in Seattle, Washington. JC: What Norwich class are you? RT: Class of 1950. My father was 26. My son was -- I'll think about that. JC: Well, we'll get back to that. Tell me about where you grew up and your childhood. RT: For the first year of my life we lived in Seattle, Washington. Dad had a job with a lumber company out there, getting experience to come back to work for his father, who ran a lumber company just outside Milton, Massachusetts. So I grew up for the first nine or ten years in Milton, Massachusetts, a very nice place, right on the edge of where Mattapan and Milton come together. There was a lot of traffic. Well, just for an example, during that period of time I came up with my dad to his fifteenth reunion, and the difference in traffic between where we lived and what we found up here was considerable. When I got back to school on Monday the teacher said, "Russell had a day off. He's now going to tell us what he saw." Well, nothing came to mind, and I stood and told them that I had seen something they had never seen, miles and miles and miles of dirt roads. Now I live on one. (laughs) JC: Was that the first time you were ever at Norwich? RT: Yeah. JC: What was your impression of it when you first saw it? RT: It was a very interesting period of time. It was just before World War II affected the United States, and many, many people were sending their sons to Norwich -- rather than perhaps better prepared schools -- because they could get a commission. They assumed that everyone was going to go to war, and the opportunity of getting an education and a commission together at the same time really appealed to a lot of people. Our football team got everybody we wanted of great quality. We won all the games in that time 2 frame. And we had some very, very fine people who came back in 1946, the year I entered the university, and they made a big impression on my life. JC: I'm sure. I assume the buildings were the same. There weren't any new buildings between the time that you went and -- RT: As a matter of fact it was 1941 I believe, and two buildings on the main parade ground were being dedicated. One wasn't quite finished, and the other was, and two new dormitories shows you an example of what I was saying, how it was a golden period in Norwich's history. But saying that, the opposite is true when the war ends. You remember that we had, what, 15 cadets come up here after the Civil War. They all got off the train, (laughs) yeah, we don't think much about that. It's happened each time there's been a war. The incentive, or the idea, or the concept of perhaps having to serve didn't appeal to a lot of people at the end of wars. JC: Right. You kind of have a boom before the war and a bust after the war. RT: Yeah. JC: What made you decide to come to Norwich? RT: I think probably that trip did, that and the fact my dad was always talking about it. He would make us on Saturday nights -- eating beans and franks -- to sing Norwich songs around the table. (laughs) JC: Do you remember any of those Norwich songs? RT: There's a good one. What is it? "Oh, My First Sergeant" "Oh, my first sergeant, he is the worst of them all. He gets us up in the morning before first call. It's fours right, fours left, and left foot into line. And then the dirty son of a buck, he gives us double time. Oh, it's home, boys, home. It's home we ought to be. Home, boys, home, in the land of liberty. And we'll all be back to Norwich when the sergeant calls the roll." JC: That's wonderful. (laughter) I've heard in some of the oral histories "On the Steps of Old Jackman," but I haven't heard that one before. (Todd laughs) So when you came here with your father, was that during homecoming? RT: Well, homecoming and graduation were the same period of time. It was fascinating to me. It was a cavalry school. They had all kinds of drills that we went to and watched, and prizes were awarded. People loading up the water-cooled submachine guns on horseback and racing around, then taking them down, and putting in ammunition blanks, and firing -- you know, first, second, and third prizes kind of thing. Oh, yeah, that impressed me. Then, of course, the parades were fun to see. But it took about three days to get through graduation and homecoming as a single entity. JC: When you came to Norwich what did you major in? 3 RT: That's an interesting story. As I said, Norwich was having trouble at that time recruiting people, and I got recruited by the president of the university. We met in Boston, and he asked me all the things I was interested in, and to him it looked like I should be an engineer, and he wanted me to take an exam that would carry that forward. Well, I took the exam, and I became an engineer, and about the first part of the second semester I discovered you really had to do the homework. I really didn't like that much, and I wasn't doing very well, so I changed my major to history and economics. I really found that fascinating. JC: Well, tell me about what it was like being a rook here. RT: Yeah, another interesting thing. I was sold on the rook system, and my dad had always talked about it. When he brought me up here, people would drop off their suitcases, and go right out onto the parade ground, and start being ordered around by the corporal. I thought that was great. I never seemed super. But I didn't have many followers on that. I was very anxious that my father leave, and get out of there, and go home, and I convinced him to do that. But after, oh, maybe a month the class, who had elected class officers by that time, called a class meeting, and we all got together -- I've forgotten where now. "We got to stop this. We got to tell these guys we're not going to put up with this nonsense. We've got to show our power." I stood up and said, "Gentlemen, this isn't what we want to do. We want to put up. We want to show him we can do it," and I got booed right off the stage. However, they eventually made me class secretary, so I didn't lose all my friends that day. (laughs) JC: Now let's talk about post-war Norwich, because you did say there's kind of a bust. There isn't as many people. RT: Yeah, I think we had 200 in our class, and there was no really classes of Bubbas. Norwich toward the end of the war, when they were really desperate to get money to pay salaries to the faculty, had a high-school level. I think it was two years, the high-school level, and many people went into that and came up here, and that toward the end made some income for the university. But what it did for us, as an incoming class of freshmen, we had our officers, lieutenants, who were younger than we were, but they'd been here two years. You know, that didn't sit over very well either. That was difficult. JC: And the cavalry was still here at that time. RT: It was, yeah, for the first two years of my term and tenure at Norwich, at that point. JC: What do you remember about the horse cavalry? RT: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Well, let's just put it this way. The first person I visited in Northfield when I came back as president was my old sergeant [Kenoyer?], who we hated. He was tough. But on the other hand, we really liked him, and I felt very, very sorry for him, and I really wanted to see him. His son had won entry into West Point, and 4 about two nights before he was to report in he and a bunch of his buddies were in an automobile accident. I think they were hit by a train and killed. Sergeant [Kenoyer?] was never the same after that. He continued to ride horses in the parades in Northfield and that kind of thing. But he was a character. His education was perhaps at the level he was working, taking care of the horses, and taking care of the riding. He was a good man, but, for example, I had a roommate named George Pappas who was scared to death of the horses, and some of the horses knew it. They knew when you were afraid. And old George would step into the stable area, ready to put on the harness, and that old horse would just back him into the wall and lean on him -- oh, you win. Then, of course, [Kenoyer?] would come by and say, "Kick him in the neb with your knee!" Well, no one was going to do that, trapped in there. So George, he decided that he would skip equitation classes, and instead he took 10 demerits for every single class that he was supposed to be at, and he spent his first semester walking around the parade ground on Saturdays carrying a rifle, doing tours. Many things can be said about George. That's a whole other story of absolute wonder. But it was difficult. We only went down once a week actually to use them, but there really wasn't a hell of lot you can learn in one-hour time once a week. But toward the end of the freshman year we were out trotting around in the neighborhoods, etc. I remember one time one of the captains in the Army ROTC program there, officers, Army officers, lead us on a parade, and we went out across the railroad tracks and up into the hills. And on the way back the horses got the idea they themselves would like to jog back to the stables, and we came charging down that hill totally out of control. Some of the horses and men went all the way to downtown before they came under it. I went through the football practice. (laughs) It wasn't everything it was cracked up to be. Now there were some people here, including a classmate by the name of Bob [Bacharat?] [00:13:18] who really was a polo player. He came from Switzerland. I think that's the reason he came to Norwich was to be able to play polo, and we played polo in that time frame with people like Miami who flew their horses up here. Now, I never saw the plane, but we were told all this and a few years earlier, before the war, that Norwich was playing the big colleges and winning. Toward the end of the first year we played something called broom polo, which they'd throw out a basketball on the floor, and then you'd have to hit it with a broom to get it to go to the goal. Those kinds of things were fun to watch. I remember one time George, my roommate, in skipping class went up into the stands, which are on the south end of the hall, but up above in a balcony, and he opened the window and got a snowball, several of them, and put them up there. When somebody would go by, the stove down on the floor -- there were four stoves in that place -- they'd get red hot, but they really didn't make a hell of a lot of difference when the temperature was 30 below or whatever it might have been outside. And the horses, when you'd take them from the stable to the riding hall, would fight you all the way; they didn't want to go out in that cold. But George, on one occasion, dropped snowballs on those red-hot stoves, and you can imagine, they hissed. As the horse went by, this great hiss came out, and the horse would throw the guy, or run for the far -- I went hell bent for election to the far wall. And when he stopped, I went right up onto his neck and was hanging on. Sergeant [Kenoyer?] came over and gave me hell, you know, "You didn't take control of that horse." (inaudible) [00:15:36] There are people lying down all 5 around, and the horses are running around. Well, there's a certain romance in having the horses, so long as you're sitting in the stands watching a polo game. (laughs) JC: Had you ever ridden a horse before? RT: No, never. JC: So you didn't have any experience with horses. RT: Neither did anybody else. Yeah, yeah. They were wonderful animals though, for the most part. JC: Now you said a lot of the people that were there before the war came back after the war to finish up. RT: Mm-hmm. A lot may be too much of an adjective to use, but Alumni Hall was essentially filled with non-married veterans, or veterans who hadn't brought their wives back. Civilian clothes and having nothing to do with the military. The rest of the dormitories were filled with 200 and whatever it was cadets, and the very few upperclassmen like the one I mentioned who came up through the high school route. We didn't have a lot to do with them, and they were very serious about their studies in the classrooms, very serious about their studies. The fraternization took place after the first of the year when we could go into a fraternity house, and I remember the older veterans -- older, 22 maybe -- who were in Theta Chi, where I was, were a remarkable bunch of people and very, very much appreciated. They didn't always come to dinner with us, but they were in the house and participated with it. They ranged all the way from a parachutist in Europe to a lieutenant colonel in the air force. So that's a big gap. But they were great guys who made fraternity life reasonable. JC: Well, tell me about Theta Chi. Why did you choose that one? RT: Oh, yeah, the same old story, the same reason I came here. My dad was a Theta Chi. Why, of course that's what I'd do. This is my father's fraternity, you know. JC: So what were the fraternities like? RT: They weren't too bad. When General Harmon eliminated them, I thought it was the right thing to do, because there weren't fraternities at other military colleges. And when they were started I really believe they were very useful. They were much more an eating club, and since there wasn't a mess in the university in the 1850s. If you look into some of the old records you'll see at graduation time they invited the alumni back to have dinner, and they had dances. They had inter-fraternity baseball and football, etc. We were trying at my time, in my fraternity, to replicate that. It wasn't perhaps as successful as it might have been. It was great fun to beat SigEp in baseball or something. But it was a different part of the university. I remember one time when I was a corporal, and one of the men in the rank under me, in the barracks, was in the fraternity. We get down to the fraternity, 6 and he would give me a hard time for giving him a hard time. It wasn't what I thought it should be, but it was a good time. I mean, don't misunderstand me. Well, it was a fraternity. (laughs) The girls came in by train, if they were away. Carol came up several times on a train to spring break, or a winter carnival, and that kind of thing. That was good sport to have a place where we could party. There was no drinking - baloney, there wasn't. (Coates laughs) I remember one time we were having lunch, and one of the seniors, one of the veterans that had come back, was the president of the house, and he said, "Our Theta Chi member on the faculty, old Professor Woodbury, is going to be our chaperone for the party. Does anybody know Professor Woodbury?" "I know Professor Woodbury. My father told me about him. I've met him once." He said, "Good. You and your date will sit in the living room with the Woodburys while we're down in the basement drinking." (laughter) It wasn't much fun that night. We had the bars hidden behind sliding doors, or doors that pulled down, and all this kind of stuff, so if we got word that there was someone from the faculty coming we could close it up and all sit down, smile, and look like there was no alcohol in the place. JC: Can you tell me a little bit about winter carnival and some of the dances that you all had? RT: They were good sport. Much of the fun though centered around the fraternity at that time. Yes, of course we went to the dance, etc., but before going to the dance we probably went to the fraternity, and certainly after the dance we went to the fraternity, and that was really good sport. In my senior year my roommate, Rollin S. Reiter, from Ohio decided that in his fraternity they were going to have a special Christmas party. Now, it didn't make an awful lot of sense, because it was right at exam time. We took exams right in that time frame, so he really had to work to get these guys. They were going to do it in tuxedoes, not in our uniforms, so that slowed it down a little, too. But one of the guys, Chubby Jordan, who has since passed away, he was a brigadier general in the Massachusetts National Guard later on, an ex-marine. He didn't want to go do it, so they convinced him that he had to do it, and they would get him a date. When he went to the fraternity house, he was introduced to the worst looking girl in the place, and he immediately started drinking beer and avoiding her and all this. It wasn't even the girl they were going to match him up with, and they just were teasing him something awful. When he got very sleepy they put him on the pool table, laid out flat like in a mortuary and put two lit candles, one at either end of him on the pool table. It was a sight for sore eyes. (laughs) JC: I bet it was. Now you were on the rook committee while you were there? RT: Yeah. In my sophomore year I was the head of the rook committee, elected by the class. During the summer period of time I had to get together with the printers and the university and go through this business. There were big posters that said "Beware, Rook, Beware," and then they listed all the things down. We'd get them printed up here by John Mazuzan down in the Northfield Press, and then we'd sell them to the rooks at $1 apiece. I don't know what we did with the money, in the class coffers I guess. Yeah. I remember that President Dodge, who had no military experience previous, but was a very, very well known scientist and had been the dean of one of the big Midwestern schools in that area, 7 he was brought in by some hefty people on the board of trustees. He didn't fit. He didn't understand us. He was a great academic and did some very fine things for the university. But he called me in one day, as head of the rook committee, and said, "When will this period end?" This was right after supper. I said to him, "Sir, it's very clear. It's right on the chart." He said, "I want it to end at Thanksgiving." I said, "Sir, I don't think you're talking to the right guy. You should really be talking to the commandant of cadets, your left-hand man." He said, "Well, I don't know if I can convince him," and I thought, oh, my God, what have we got here, you know. (laughter) He was a fine gentleman, but the minute it was possible for the alumni to discover that General Harmon might be available, in May of my senior year, Dodge was gone. The alumni just -- it wasn't working the way they wanted to see it work. JC: So Harmon was not president any of the time that you were here? RT: His inauguration was held at the same time as my graduation. It was one thing. He had been here for maybe a month, and I remember that we had a football banquet, and they invited General Harmon to come. And he stood up and told us all that he had been here as a cadet, and he had come back in 1935 as the commandant of cadets, and he loved and understood this university, and he was going to make it famous, you know, kind of, "Yeah!" Just the kind of story we needed. Then he told us a story that just curdled me. It was a dirty story. I'd never heard some guy stand up in a dinner and tell a dirty story. It sort of surprised me. He had that reputation. As a matter of fact, one time later in my career, when I was in the army, I was asked by my boss if I would go back to Hamilton, Massachusetts, where I had lived at one time and see Mrs. George Patton, and tell her that her son-in-law -- as a brigadier general -- was about to be sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky. He was married to one of Patton's daughters, and he is now a bachelor. I was to go with three sets of quarters' plans and say, "Which of these, General, would you choose, because we at Fort Knox can now get the house painted up and ready for you, and all this kind of stuff ahead of time?" Well, Mrs. Patton agreed. When the time actually came general orders was late in his itinerary and couldn't be there, so she said, "Why don't you and Carol just come to dinner, and we'll talk about this? I will pass your message to Johnny when he comes through next week, and your leave is over." So that was just fine. But we had a quiet period in that Mrs. Patton was at one end of a long table, and I was at the other end, and Carol was in the middle, and there was a little old maid with a bonnet on her head, and an apron moving around quietly around the room. Everything went silent, and I said, "I can handle this." I said to Mrs. Patton, "Mrs. Patton, do you happen to know General Harmon?" And she said, "Indeed, I do, Russell, and he's a very disgusting man." (laughter) Now as it turns out, she gave an award right after that, she gave an award at Norwich of a similar pistol of General Patton's famous (inaudible) [00:29:38] to the leading cadet. But she was clear. (laughter) JC: Yeah, I've heard stories about General Harmon. RT: He did a great job. He stayed too long, but he did a great job. 8 JC: Well, what clubs were you in when you were here at Norwich? RT: Yeah, I went out for football. I'd come from a little school in Wenham, Massachusetts, where we played six-man football, and if one guy was sick, it didn't look like we were going to play, you know, kind of thing. I went out for football in Beverly High School, and that was danger. I mean, I wasn't up to that. When we got to Norwich I said, "I'm going back out for football. This looks like --" They were mostly freshmen. There were some veterans that came back, and there were some very good veteran players who came back but weren't interested in playing football. They wanted to study and have a family life. So Norwich had a terrible football team during that period of time. About the second day of practice Joe Garrity, who'd been a friend of my dad's who I had known, put his arm on my shoulder as we walked back to the locker room and said, "I've got a job for you." And I thought to myself, I'm going to be quarterback for the freshman team. And he said, "You're my manager, how about that?" and I said, "Oh, OK." Later in life, when I became president, the alumni director here, Dave Whaley, took me out to visit various alumni clubs. In Chicago a fellow named Hale Lait, who played football and was co-captain in his senior year, started to walk up to us, and Dave says, "Mr. Lait, do you know General Todd?" Hale Lait says, "Shit, he used to wash my jock." (laughter) And it was true! We had a big laundry over there. JC: Were you in any other clubs while you were here? RT: Yeah, I'd have to think upon it. We had an international relations club that I became president of at some point of time under -- oh, come on, his name is skipping me. I'll come back to it. But we brought I people to speak on the issues, and then Norwich formed an alliance with the other colleges where we were all working together, and that was sort of fun working that out. Oh, incidentally, when I was manager for the freshman team I had to write all the letters to the other schools and make all the arrangements, all that kind of thing. It sort of surprised me that the university wasn't doing that; the athletic department wasn't doing that. JC: Did you have a favorite professor when you were here? RT: Yeah, and I just told you I couldn't remember his name. (laughter) Sidney Morse. JC: Oh, OK. RT: Old Sidney Morse was a terrible lecturer, but he was a genius, you know. He understood American history, and that was his forte, and he also was a wonderful human being and understood us. He really got me to dig in and start getting decent grades. He would lecture, but he would have side comments on this thing, and there we are taking notes left and right. I never wanted to miss a class under any circumstances. He invited some of us -- one of them being me -- over to dinner, and he was just a great sport. He was not a big man in stature, but a big man in intellect. JC: Was there a professor you particularly didn't like? 9 RT: Oh, there were some who I'd rather not name who I didn't appreciate or think that they were at the level they should be. JC: What was the favorite class you ever took here? RT: I guess it was history. That's what I worked at. Let me go back to what I didn't like. We lost -- somehow, I don't know how -- one of the economics professors, and President Dodge brought in somebody in mid-semester, and this guy had written many books and was well appreciated around the world, but he was terrible. He couldn't remember any names, he refused to take any attendance, so people didn't come. You could answer him back and forth. I was told, I can't vouch for this, I was told by the people that say they did it. They invited him out the night before his final exam to join them for dinner in Montpelier, and when the time came, they picked up the tip, and went down to the railroad station, and put him on a train going to Montreal. (laughter) I believe it was true. But he just wasn't accustomed to teaching at our level in that circumstance. He was someone that should have continued writing his books. He was essentially a sociologist, but that was a while. I got called in by the dean for skipping class, and the dean was a great guy at that time. I was a little embarrassed by it, but the class was mostly veterans in this particular -- in economics. You know, they had their way. They weren't required to come to class. If they didn't come to class it chalked up one of a series you could have freer, but cadets didn't have that, so I just played like I was a veteran to old Mumbles [McLeod?]. That's what they called him, Mumbles. When the dean called me in, I got right back on it. JC: Decided you'd rather go back to class. RT: Yeah. JC: Did you ever get in much trouble when you were here? RT: Not really. I came close a number of times. Well, let me go back and talk about Carol. Carol and I met one time when we were in about the ninth grade. She was in Beverly, Massachusetts, and we were living in Hamilton, Massachusetts, at the time, and the Congregation youth groups met at a third place, Essex, Massachusetts. There were lots of people of our ages. You know, these groups didn't know each other. And I spotted her. She was -- wow! Wow, yeah. But I never got to speak to her before we broke up and went back. A couple of years later in Beverly High School -- we'd moved to Wenham, and Wenham didn't have a high school, so I went to Beverly High School. Todd with a T and Wyeth with W happened to have lockers opposite each other on the wall, and I said, "My God, there's that girl." I went over and spoke to her, and she invited me to her birthday party, and that'll show it all started with us. But it came to a point in our sophomore year when I had changed from engineering into history and economics. I had to make up some subject material that I didn't get in the first part, and I went to the University of New Hampshire trying to make it up. I went down on the weekend to her house in Beverly, and I stayed with her aunt 10 who lived next door. She was on my team. But Carol when we were -- she said, "Let's stop this tennis game for a minute. I want to talk to you." We walked up to the net, and she said, "You know, I'm through with this relationship. You're never going to be serious about anything you do in your life; you're going to be a perennial sophomore. I want to do more with my life than you are going to do, and this isn't going to work out." OK, I'll show you. I came back and studied like hell for the last two years I was here and sort of caught up. But it was interesting, when I was invited back at graduation time to be the officer who commissions everybody, and at that time the university ordered a master's or a PhD, you know, honorary to the speaker. Loring Hart didn't tell me whether I was supposed to say anything or not, so I had in my pocket a little thing I would say. It went something like this. It is indeed an honor to be here. I represent my classmates in this ceremony, and I'm very proud of the way Norwich is moving. But I would like you to know that 25 years ago, this very day, I received a letter from the committee on academic degrees and standings that read to this effect: "Dear Cadet Todd, The committee has met and has agreed to allow you to graduate (laughs) based on the circumstances that were not your fault." (laughter) So, you know, that's the way life went for me. I dug in and did relatively well. But another interesting thing about that. I don't know about anybody else, but I had a picture in my mind of VMI, and the Citadel, and all these places as being superior to Norwich in their military training, etc. But when I got in the army I discovered that 50% of them were duds, and it just changed my life around and my feelings about my institution. Yeah, it was strange. JC: When you graduated from Norwich what was the first -- you went into the army. RT: Yeah. JC: Did you go straightaway into the army, or was there a period? RT: Well, some of us -- I think it was 12, maybe as many as 15 -- received an opportunity to go into the regular army, not into the reserve army. I was one of those. About half of my classmates who were given that ability to do that chose not to do it, so there were a number of us that went. Upon graduation we received our commission in the United States Army Reserve, and then two weeks later I was brought into the regular army with another commissioning thing, which happened to be by my father's Norwich roommate, Colonel [Rice?] in Boston. He was running something in Boston for the army at the time. That was sort of fun. Then I went immediately off. We graduated about 15 or 17 May or something, June rather. On the second day of July, I reported in to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment Light at Fort Meade, Maryland, as one of these people you had a regular army commission. So there wasn't any time -- there was time enough in between that the family all went down to Cape Cod for a two-week vacation, but I graduated and went into the army. JC: Now did you get married before you were in the army? 11 RT: No, no. No, no. I was still trying to get back in Carol's good graces. Before I left -- well, I went, as I said, to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. Now the army was doing something really stupid at that time. They had been told to reduce the army's personnel requirements, and rather than reducing in any reasonable way, they chose to take one-third of every squad, one-third of every company, one-third of every battalion, one-third of every regiment. It was a paper army. It couldn't really operate well at all. But when the war broke out in Korea they took from those drawn-down forces and sent them over as individual replacements, supposedly to go into units that also had the same kind of vacancy that was created now. So we had almost no reasonable training while I was in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment before going to Korea, and these people went into units for which they were not trained. The army was really messed up, really messed up. General Abrams one time in discussing this with a group of officers, after he'd become chief of staff of the army, had tears running down his face. "No army should ever do that to its people. There is no excuse for it, and as long as I'm chief of staff I guarantee you that our units will be ready to fight, if we have to fight." You know, oh. It was a terrible mess over there. So before leaving that unit in which I had a miserable career for that short period of time. For example, it wasn't two weeks later that the post's military police battalion left Fort Meade and went to Korea. Company A of my organization, of which I was a lieutenant, became the post's military policemen. Now, we know nothing about being the post's military policemen, not a thing. There wasn't anything in ROTC, there wasn't anything that lead us to believe. What I knew about policing was I'd seen in movies, and I hid behind the "Welcome to Fort Meade" sign in my sedan, and chased down someone that was speeding, and discovered it was the chief of staff of the post. At midnight I went over and had a bed check in the post's prison, to see that there weren't any knives in there. But I got called in and said, "Hey, come on, get off it. You can go to jail for what you're doing," you know. (laughs) It was crazy. I was trying to do my job as I knew it, but no one was there to supervise me in any way. JC: And how long were you doing that? RT: I left there in September. I went in in July, left in September, and got to Korea in late November, first having leave and then going to the West Coast, going through the checks and balances of travel over there. Just about that time MacArthur announced that the war would be over by Christmas, and as a result the army slowed down the number of replacements they were sending over. This was just about the time that the marines invaded Inchon, and it was followed up with the 7th Division behind them, and trapped the North Vietnamese soldiers below us. It was really a magnificent maneuver. So we were just sitting around in California waiting to get orders. Every weekend we'd go into town, and we'd go into some bar and then talk out loud about how we've got to go, and waiting to go to war, this kind of thing. Somebody would pick up the bar tab. (laughs) Then we crossed the Pacific during a hurricane, and that was something most unusual, as you might imagine. The piano broke loose in the lounge. It had been a troop transport in World War II, and they converted it to be a troop ship but for families to go to Japan or other places. At that time these ships were the property of the army, it wasn't the navy. 12 I remember distinctly there was a captain on board, mostly lieutenants, but this captain on board was a ranger, and he'd a big, puffed-up chest, and walked among us, and told us to stand up straight, and "Take your hands out of your pockets." When he'd get tired of doing that he decided we should have bayonet drill, and issued the bayonets, put them on our rifles, and went up on the deck. Oh, God. I said, "I'm not playing this game." There was a ladder still going up the funnel, in wartime where they had a station to look for submarines, OK. I went up there while everybody else was screaming and hollering down below and got away with it. It's a wonder I ever went anywhere in the army. (laughs) JC: So what was Korea like? RT: Well, let me describe it. We arrived the day before Thanksgiving in Inchon, got off the boat. There was a long, long tidal process; the ship couldn't get close to the docks or anything else. So they threw the nets over the side, and we were to go over the side of the ship and climb down into a small boat to go in. But we had all our personal gear with us. We were carrying great bags of stuff. I had two bottles of whiskey in my bag, and some damn fool says, "Drop your bag into the boat." I did. (laughs) But as a matter of fact, they took our uniforms away from us at that time and said, "We will hold them here, because if everybody goes home at Christmas it won't affect you for a while, and you'll be in a regular army uniform." But we got on the boats and went on the shore. They fed us what was left over from the Thanksgiving dinner, and a lot of canned fruits, put us on a train, and sent us up to North Korea. Each of us, each lieutenant, was on an open freight car, you know, enclosed but with doors on both sides, and each one of them had a little stove in it. It was cold, and we headed north, and every time the hospital train came south on that one track we would pull over maybe an hour before it came by, and then stick around and get back onto the thing. In my one car I had 27 people. Those cars were small. They were Japanese-style freight cars, and they were small. We had nothing but straw on the floor and a sleeping bag, but it was a summer sleeping bag, not a winter sleeping bag, and the stove didn't really heat the thing at all. There were slots in the side of the thing. Anyway. We didn't have any ammunition, and we would get shot at on the train. Now, nobody I know of got hit, but it made quite an impression. But still they didn't issue us any ammunition. There was a major in charge, and he was in the last car, which was a caboose kind of car, tight, a good stove, etc., etc. So whenever the train stopped we as lieutenants would run back and sit in his car with him and then take off again. Many of the soldiers would get off and run in to find somebody in the little town we stopped in and buy rot-gut whiskey. Boy, they were in trouble. One of the people in the car behind me, I was told, went blind on the spot. Maybe he was cured later, but it made an impression. We finally got to the capital of Pyongyang, and they put us on trucks and took us to what used to be a hospital. We went on about the fourth floor and were on cots, or on the floor, kind of thing, and at midnight that night some captain in the army came in and said, "OK, everybody out. Get down on the truck below. Let's go. Get your gear together." Well, we all didn't get there first, and the last of us were turned around and sent back. That batch was never heard from again. The next morning we were loaded on trucks and sent up. But before going they fed us a good breakfast. We went down into 13 the basement of this place -- it was steaming and dark down there -- and we had breakfast on some slate or granite tables. Steam is pouring out of the coffee pots, etc., and I filled my cup with coffee and took a big drink to discover that it was maple syrup. I went forward that day sick as a dog, sitting at the end, at the tail of that truck yurking all the way. I'm sure all those men I was traveling with, "Look hey there, look at that lieutenant. He's so scared he's puking," you know. We went on and eventually we came to a stop, and the captain who was leading this convoy came back and told us to get off the trucks and go into these schoolhouses that were available, right immediately, I mean, just saw them and said, "Take them." We went into the schoolhouse, and he turned around and went back to get "another load," quote, unquote. We never saw him again; he never came back. Here we are with no ammunition, carrying guns, living in a schoolhouse, and the Chinese are moving in on us. They were moving down the mountains on both sides of this thing, and then there was a tremendous, tremendous loss of life up the mountain further, coming toward us. The 38th Regiment that I joined after we got out -- I get the men out, and then I jumped on a mess truck headed south, all trying to find where the headquarters for the 38th Regiment was. The 38th Regiment was part of the 2nd Division, and it lost in about two days, coming through a real tight trap -- there was a river, there was a road that wasn't wide enough for two tanks to pass, and then there was a mountain again on the other side, and the Chinese are up on both sides just raking the convoy. One truck stops, you know, they've got to push it off the edge to get the convoy going again. Now I wasn't a part of that, but I joined the company that did, and when I finally caught up with my unit, it was because I had stopped in from the schoolhouse when I saw the 1st Cavalry Division people pull on in close to us, so I went over and inquired. I walked into the TOC, the tactical operation center, and there was a major sitting in front of a map, on a stool, making little marks on it. I waited a while, and he didn't notice me, and finally I said, "Sir, could you tell me where the 38th Regiment is?" and he turned around and said, "No, but where's the division? Where is the 2nd Division?" I said, "Sir, I have no idea. We're trying to find it. We were left off down here." He said, "I don't know where they are. If you --" It was that confusing. They lost something like 4,000 men coming out of that gap. Now, I wasn't affected, not at all, in any way. I was scared to death at times, but then after that I joined the 38th Regiment. When I went in to meet Colonel Pappal -- yeah, something like that -- he shook hands with one, and passed me a bottle of whiskey with the other one, and said, "Son, you're going to need this." I reported in to the battalion commander, and he at the time was meeting with his staff in a little hutch where the Vietnamese -- the Vietnamese -- the Koreans built their houses of mud and mud brick, and they would cook in an open room attached to the house, and the smoke would go under the floors and heat the house. We were sitting on one of those floors, warm and toasty, and they were passing the bottle of whiskey around this circle as we talked about (inaudible) [00:59:47]. By that time the bottle of whiskey got pretty hot. (laughs) It was a very strange circumstance. When he finally got to it, the battalion commander said to me, he said, "Todd, you're going down to A Company." I said, "Sir, and who commands A Company?" He said, "You do." I had about as much opportunity to learn infantry tactics and lead a rifle 14 company as nobody at all. My buddy who I was traveling with who had some experience in World War II in combat in Europe, came back and went to the University of Illinois, and then came into the army the same as I did, through the (inaudible) [01:00:34], he was sent down to a company that already had an experienced commander. You know. Nobody was thinking. I sent the first sergeant back to division headquarters, he got commissioned, and he came back, and essentially he told me what we ought to be doing. Then we did it. Until MacArthur issued an order, that probably came to him to do it, that said all armored officers that had been assigned to infantry units are to be returned to armored units. So I went down to the regimental tank company of the regiment where my company commander, before coming over there, was an infantry officer who was aide to camp to the commanding general who gave him the tank company in the 38th regiment who didn't know a damn thing about tanks. It was really screwed up everywhere. At a point when I was running the rifle company, I was told that a replacement was on the way, flying in, and he would replace me as company commander. Oh, great, that's good news. The guy showed up, and during World War II he had been in the air force as a bombardier. He had absolutely no infantry experience. He had joined the nearest reserve unit to his home when he was discharged. It really wasn't working out. Where we got replacements, the adjutant would go down and say, "Has anybody been through armored training?" Nobody. Nobody. So there wasn't anybody to send to the armored company except the people that came in (inaudible) [01:02:41]. So we were training these guys, but we weren't -- there were some old sergeants that really knew what they were doing, and that's we made. We eventually had a pretty good tank company. I remember my sergeant was a gruff, old son of a bitch. I walked up to a formation he was holding one day, and his back was to me, and I was walking toward the platoon. And I heard him say "The kid says we got to --" I said uh-oh. "Sergeant [Beach?], come with me," and we went in to see the company commander. I told the company commander that I couldn't resolve this one. He said, oh, very well, I'll assign someone else." Sergeant [Beach?] remained behind. Wow, I've done it. Sergeant Beach comes out. I said, "What happening Sergeant?" and he said, "I'm going to be the lieutenant in charge of the other platoon." Ahhh, God, you know. (laughs) It just wasn't the army I knew later on. Yeah. It was a very sad arrangement. It really wasn't until General Walker was killed in a jeep accident, and he was the 8th Army commander, and they sent General Van Fleet over to run it, and we by that time had moved 125 miles to the rear. We were running as an army. Word got out very quickly that General Van Fleet's orders were "I don't want to see your plans of defense, I want to see your plans of attack." And everyone says, "Sure, sure, General. You look at them, and you'll be all alone up there." Well, by God, he took that army and straightened it out and moved it forward and stopped the Chinese, without much additional support. It was amazing to see that happen. I'll never forget that, that one man deciding that he's going to turn the army around and you'd better fall in line. I did have one experience before that happened when I was with the tank company, and I was in a jeep riding down a road, and the division commander had decided that since we had all these losses, and we're all screwed up, that he had a way to make us all feel proud of ourselves and identify. The methodology he used was that one regiment would have a mustache, another regiment would have sideburns, and another 15 would have goatees. Crazy, just crazy. But I'm driving down the road, and an assistant division commander, a one star, is coming this way, and he went right by, and I saluted, and then he stopped and hollered back at me. I jumped out and ran down to his jeep. He said, "You're not obeying the division commander's orders." I said, "Sir, what do you mean?" He said, "You shaved." I said, "No, sir, I've never shaved." (laughter) God. Yeah. But General Van Fleet really pulled that into order, and he relieved a lot of people. He relieved my brigade commander, gave us a lieutenant to be the colonel's slot in the brigade, who turned out to wind up with four stars in the end. They made the mechanism work. JC: Amazing. Now, you were awarded the Medal for Valor in Korea, weren't you? RT: Yeah. I got a Bronze Star for Valor and a Silver Star for Valor, neither of which I really want to talk about much. I think somebody else would have done better to have them than me. I mean, I was pleased, happy to receive it, proud to wear it on my uniform kind of thing, but there was a lot of that going on to bolster up morale of everybody. JC: Is there anything else you want to say about Korea? RT: I don't know. At the end it was a pretty good experience. When we had gone into a stalemate, we started a rotation system back to the United States, and it was a point system. If you came within a certain period of time, then you could go back at a date specific, so we all knew when we'd be going back. There were points for the kind of job you had and all this kind of thing. It was interesting, I went back to Japan, spent a few days in Japan. When we got on the boat I was assigned -- as I had on the way over -- to a large stateroom, and I think there were 12 of us in it, and up and down cots. It was the same gang I went over with. You know, the timeline of where you engaged in combat were the same for all of us, in different units, and that was really pretty special. Two of them, only two of them, didn't come back, and they were both infantry officers. To the best of my knowledge, from the 38th Regiment that I was familiar with, the lieutenants didn't go back whole. The majority of them were killed. Those that were wounded were wounded seriously enough that they didn't come back to the unit. So it was us armored guys that, essentially, came back together, went over together and came back together. Stopped in Hawaii on the way back, pulled into the port, and there's all these hula girls down on the thing, people with big signs, "Welcome Home, Veteran." I said, "Hell, I'm not a veteran. That's a guy that sits outside the post office trying to sell pencils." (laughs) That came as a bit of a shock to us. But, yeah. JC: Well, once you got back to the United States where were you stationed? RT: Before I got back to the United States, on R&R in Japan, I knew of my rotation date. I called Carol, who by that time had finished her year after Smith at Radcliffe, taking the first year of the Harvard Business School program at Radcliffe -- business school faculty, business school-devised location, Radcliffe. I called her and said, "How about meeting me in New York City on such and such a date at the Biltmore Hotel? We'll meet under the clock." Now, meeting under the clock, there'd been a movie about that whole 16 business. So she did, and we went to my family's house. They'd moved to Scarsdale, New York, at that point. I asked her to marry me. She said, "Give me a couple of weeks." So I went back to visit my family. They're not my immediate family, my grandparents in Quincy, Massachusetts, and my other grandparents in Dorchester, Massachusetts. I went to -- my uncle, my mother's brother, ran a hardware store that had originally been his father's, and he said, "What are you going to do about a car?" I said, "I got to get one." I sold my car before I went over. He said, "Well, I've got a good friend who's honest, and I think we can get a good car." So I went over that afternoon and bought a car and called Carol, and I said, "I bought a car today." She said, "A convertible?" and I said, "Yes," and turned it in the next day and got a convertible. (laughter) I'd do anything to make sure she's sweet. She said yes, we were married on the nineteenth of June of that year, and she obviously had to quit her job to become an army wife. JC: So where did you all go after that? RT: The first station when we returned, and I'm talking now about the same group of army officers that went over and came back together, also went to Fort Knox, and we lived in newly-built quarters that were built by a civilian contractor on the edge of there, which were great for a newly-married couple, but they certainly weren't anything special. George and Joanne Patton lived next door to us, a small world, yeah. I've lost my train of thought here now. (break in audio) JC: And we'll get back started. All right, so we were talking about Fort Knox. RT: Fort Knox being a first assignment together in the army was really great. So different. I mean, Fort Knox was organized. Everything was working well. People were happy. Not that we weren't working hard, because we really were. My first assignment was to a training division. It took the number of the division, the third, and replicated it and then trained, basic training. I was in the 2nd Brigade headquarters working on the planning and that kind of thing. I really was disappointed that I wasn't one of the company commanders, but it turns out that that was a tough job. In the tank company, the guy that headed the tank company had more tanks than a tank division, and it was a mess to keep them all straightened out and going around. So one day I went back home for lunch, and Mrs. George Patton, Sr., was sitting in the living room of our house talking to Carol. She had come down to Fort Knox because George and Joanne had just been married, and Joanne got some kind of disease when they were on the honeymoon in the Caribbean. And I reintroduced myself to Mrs. Patton, and we sat down and talked. She asked me what my job was, and I told her. I said, "But I've got to go. I've got an appointment this afternoon to see the commanding general. They're looking for an aide to camp to the commanding general, and I really don't want that job. I really would prefer to get an opportunity to command a company in the division here." She said, "Russell, General Collier is a very, very fine man. He has a 17 fine family life. He is a very, very successful soldier who commanded the 2nd Armored Division at the end of the war in Berlin. You could learn an awful lot working for him." So I went over, and I got the job, and for the next two years I was the junior aide to the commanding general. I did such things as travel with him when he went to different places for different purposes. My buddies all got a hold of me when they found out I was going to do this job, and all had things they wanted changed at Fort Knox, and I was to be their agent in telling the commanding general how he could change the place. Very early on we went out of the headquarters, down the steps, into the car, went past the post theater. I thought, well, here goes. I said, "Sir, do you realize that on this post now an officer must be in his full dress uniform in order to go to the movies?" He said, "Yes, I know that, and it will remain that way." I didn't have many new ideas for him after that. (laughs) He'd go over to the armor school, and the people that are teaching in the combat kinds of business would say, "This is what we're doing now, General, and what do you think? We'd like your approval of it," and I'd sit in the back of the room and listen to what was going on, and understand it. I would hear the people that had served in combat talk about what you ought to do, and I got a great education. Also, every year there was something called the Armor Warfighting Conference. Twice I was there for that. They bring in all the people that belong to the Armor Association, or were serving in an armored position, all the senior people, and they'd talk about what the army ought to be doing in armor. One of my jobs was to go into the airport in the general's big sedan and his chauffer and pick these guys up and drive them back to the post, and I'd chat with these guys, and it was really fun. I got to know an awful lot of people, army commanders, army staff members, and all this. I really felt pretty special that I'd had this kind of an opportunity. Then we also had at Fort Knox in that time frame an armor board. This armor board, when General I. D. White was the commander at Fort Knox -- before General Collier -- that the chief of staff of the army was not pleased with the way the chief of ordnance was managing the tank program and gave the responsibility to the commanding general at Fort Knox. All the bigwigs gathered at Fort Knox to make decisions about what the next tank would look like, what the next armored personnel carrier would look like, etc., etc. Again, I sat in the back of the room, and young captains and majors, most of them West Point graduates who'd gone off to graduate school and were coming back and using their talents. It was a great, great opportunity for me. We were always invited to the house when the Colliers were having a party, and people would say, "Oh, you're going over there and pass the cigarette butts around with them, aren't you?" "No, we don't do that. We're part of that group." Mike Popowski here in town, his dad was one of those colonels on the post at that time. I really got to know all those people. Not that it was doing me any good, but I learned from them, you know. I learned how to act, I learned when to shut up. It was very useful, and it was a great time. The Colliers were magnificent to us. We had a child while we were living there -- it was Tom, and Tom got burnt badly in an accident at our house. He was crawling across the floor, and there was a coffee pot that started percolating, and he looked up and pulled on the cord, and it came over and broke open on his back. The Colliers came over and relieved us of our 24-hour duty, and they took it over; they sat with that baby. We were their family. It was amazing; it was wonderful. 18 Yeah. I began to really understand what the army was about, that it could be a good army. JC: Well, after Fort Knox where did you go? RT: Let's see. Oh, yeah. When General Collier left, he was to be promoted and going to go to Korea, and he offered me the opportunity to go with him, and I told him that I would much prefer to have a tank company in Europe. While I loved the guy and his family, I wanted a tank company in Europe. He said, "We'll take care of that," and he called up the commanding general of the 2nd Armored Division in Europe, the one that they call Chubby Doan, and told him the situation and that I would be on orders to go over to the 2nd Armored Division and a tank company. He said, "I'll give him a tank company." So, wow! You know, we made it, and off we go to Europe. We pull into Bremerhaven, which is the northern port in Germany, and they send forth a little craft to meet the boat. A sergeant first class climbs up the rope ladder and comes over and starts telling people what their orders are going to be, and I was ordered to something called the 13th Military Intelligence Group. I thought, oh, my God, something's wrong here. The colonel who was in charge of us all on the boat, for the boat trip, he got his orders, and he opened it up, and it's the 13th MIG. He said, "What's an MIG?" I said, "The best I know it's a Russian airplane." (laughs) It turned out that he thought he was going to the 1st Infantry Division for a regiment. Well, we got off the boat, and both of us went down to this intelligence group, went through two different fences, guards posted in towers and all the rest of it, and slept in an open bay area over the officers' club. There were a number of other offices there, and they said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "I don't know. I'm here by mistake. I'm headed to the 2nd Armored Division." They said, "No, no, you aren't. We're all in the same business, fellow. Tell us where you're going." And I said, "No, no. I'm an officer, and I'm going to --" They said, "We understood an armored officer was coming, and he was going to go underground and behind the Iron Curtain, and report on the Russian movements." Holy Crow! That's not for me. So the next morning I went down and asked authority to see the commanding officer of the 513th [sic] MIG. He spoke with me, and he said, "No, you're going down. You're not going to do that; that's rumor. You're going down to the headquarters in Heidelberg, and you're going to be an intelligence officer in that headquarters." I said, "I'm not an intelligence officer." He said, "That's your orders." OK. So I went down to Heidelberg. General Jim Phillips was the G2 at the time, and I asked to see him, and I went right up to his office and told him my sad story, that I was going to go to the 2nd Armored Division -- and he was an armored officer -- "Now here I am an untrained specialist in your department." He said, "What were you going to do?" I said, "Well, General Doan in the 2nd Armored Division had accepted me to come and be in tank company." He says, "I'll talk to him about that," and he reached over -- they had a red phone system that red phones went to the different generals in different locations -- he picked it up and dialed 27 or whatever it was, and General Doan answers the phone, and I'm sitting there. He said, "I got a young captain sitting here that tells me he's supposed to be in the division. Tell me about him, what are you going to do with him?" Well, poor old General Doan hadn't remembered much about the phone conversation a couple of 19 months before or something, and said, "Well, I'm going to make him my aide." And he said, "Like hell you are. I'm keeping him here for that." (laughs) I did it all over again for another two years in the headquarters at [Usera?]. [01:26:32] It was a great experience. General and Mrs. Phillips were a mother and dad to us; they'd invite us to Sunday dinner, and little Tom would crawl around the floor or under the table, and General Collier would feed him peanuts or something. It was a wonderful time, and when the Colliers would take a trip and borrow the commander in chief's train, we went with them. It was marvelous. I saw all of Europe. I knew most everything that was going on in the intelligence field, and it was a great experience with wonderful people. But when he got assigned to go back to the United States, I took the Colliers up to the port to put them on. When I came back, this again on the commander in chief's train, I had the train stop in Mannheim, and I got off in Mannheim. I wasn't going to be stopped again and reported in to the 57th Tank Battalion and for the last year there had a tank company. That was probably the greatest experience of my life. It really was a good experience. We were hard training, we were well trained, good people. In the beginning we had a wonderful commander who was a major, and the division commander, General Doan, didn't want to put a lieutenant colonel in that slot. He wanted this man to get that experience, but eventually they had to pull him and let -- the lieutenant colonels were backing up. So we were out maneuvering and we came to the last day of the maneuvers, and the new battalion commander arrives, and we have this party in a beer hall. The new commander arrives, and one of the company commanders in Charlie Company walked up to the head table with two boots of beer. You know what that is? Glass things that replicate a boot. Big. He puts one in front of each of the two commanders and says, "Let's see who's the better man." This poor guy that has just got off the train coming down from Bremerhaven and crossed the ocean picks up his boot and starts to drink. The battalion commander we love drinks it down and wins the contest, and the new battalion commander was so tight from drinking that beer too fast his feet slipped out from under him as he sat at that table and went right down under the table. (laughter) That was his first day of duty, and he didn't improve much after that. We were all pretty cocky, the company commanders; we were doing a lot of good things. But he knew nothing about it. We told him -- we were told that he had served in a tank battalion in World War II, and that's all we knew about him. It sounded great to us, a guy with some real experience. Well, it turns out that he reported in to a replacement company, and they said, "Take this truckload of men and go forward to point A. There will be a sign on the road at so many miles or kilometers. Turn left in there, and that's where your unit will be." Well, he got down there and made the turn, then went up, and three Germans come out and say, "Achtung! Put him in the compound!" and he went directly to the prisoner-of-war camp. He never had any experience. He'd been a public information officer before, and he was terrible. He was so bad that in a morning meeting every time, when he would suggest something the other three company commanders, we'd sort of nod or shake no. And "Well, what's the matter?" You know why? We didn't get any leadership out of him at all. When it came time to leave there, I had probably the most frightening experience in my life. He stood up in front of the entire battalion officer group and said, "Well, now that Captain Todd is leaving maybe I can take command of this battalion." Oh, my God. 20 Oh, my God. He gave me an efficiency report that would sink anybody, but it just turned out that in that moment of time the army changed the efficiency report system whereby your commander rates you, and his boss rates you, and then a third person rates what they did. Well, the third person turns out to have been the fellow that had been recently the brigade commander, and he knew me, he knew my performance, etc., and he sent back the efficiency report to be redone. Ho. (laughs) Yeah. Those were good times though, good times. Scary times, but testing, really testing you. JC: Because you were right there in Germany during really the height of the Cold War. RT: Yeah. As a matter of fact, one time we were out on maneuvers, 200 miles from our base, when the French and British moved into Suez, because the Egyptians said they were taking over the canal. There we are sitting out in the woods saying, "Oh, my God," because the president had said, "Oh, no, you don't." Eisenhower said, "No, you don't. You can't do that. We give you a lot of money to bring your economies back from the war, and we'll stop it tomorrow unless you withdraw." But we didn't know all that, and my guys are saying "We're going to gyro to Cairo," you know, that (laughter) kind of stuff. We finally came back. But if we'd had to go, I haven't seen a unit that would be any more ready than we were. Yeah. It was really a great exper-- In a company command, everybody doesn't have to bypass the battalion commander who's a dud. But when you do have to do that, then you're really thinking on your feet. It was great. JC: What was your next assignment after that? RT: Would you believe back to Fort Knox? JC: Oh, really? RT: Yeah. I went back there to go to the Armor Officer Advanced Course, which was a nine-month course in there, in which they were teaching you at the next level. Now the course we took before at Fort Knox was a course we should have had before we went to Korea. I came away with a great impression of how good that was. It was excellence. When I saw General Collier working with the instructors and telling them how to handle this kind of thing. When I came back three years later, it was a well-organized organization. In fact, General Abrams had been there as the head of the command department. It was a first class education. I really and truly look back upon my Norwich experience as not up to that standard that the army was producing there. At the end of that course I had talked my way into becoming one of the instructors in the command department, and I was thrilled to death about that. On graduation day I'm sitting in my chair on the aisle, and as the assistant commandant went by my seat he stopped and said, "You're going to be working in my office." (laughs) So I then worked for Colonel Chandler, who was a first-rate soldier. He had been horse cavalry, in the Philippines, and was on the Bataan death march. He was really very much a gentleman, very much strong willed, and very much of a tutor, and I worked out of his office. My job was to arrange the schedules of the classes, and we had all kinds of classes -- enlisted classes, officer classes -- so that they would mesh how 21 many people, how many classrooms do we need, how many instructors do we need, on what day are we going to do it? I was bringing home page after page of long paper, and on the kitchen floor working out the details of making this thing work. It was great, but, again, there was an intermediary. There was a lieutenant colonel who was my immediate supervisor who, again, I thought to be a dud. On my first day of working there he said, "That's your desk right over there." And I'm, "Yes, sir." I went over to my desk. Now what do I do? Here I am, I found my desk. There was a major sitting at a desk facing me who never looked up. He was just scribbling away, scared to death of this guy evidently. A few minutes later he came over and said, "Well, here's the first project I want you to do. This is it. I want you to study this, and then rewrite it, and we'll discuss it." Fine. It wasn't five minutes later, he came over and said, "No, I want you to do this one instead." I went through about six of those before I understood what I was doing. I was hopeless that anything was really going to happen. That same day he came over and looked over my shoulder, and I looked up, and he said, "What are you writing there?" I said, "Well, sir, I'm writing myself a note so that I will be able to put these things in the appropriate order." He said, "Well, you're not saying it very well." (laughter) It was awful. My out was Colonel Chandler, and a major got assigned to the office, and he very quickly understood what was going on here and went in and talked to Colonel Chandler, and Colonel Chandler moved him out. Again, we got a very, very fine operating organization going. It was good; it was very successful. But, you know, every time there's some kind of a roadblock in your career, you've got to stop and figure out how the hell you're going to get around it. JC: What was after Fort Knox? RT: Twenty more years of -- let's see. I graduated from Fort Knox. I was selected below the zone for a promotion. Do you know what that means? JC: Uh-uh. RT: When you're considered for promotion a board meets in Washington, and everybody whose career appears between this date and this date is considered. Isn't that right? Well, what they started, and I don't know if they're still doing it or not -- I think they are -- they would go below this zone and choose certain people to be examined with this group, and I was lucky enough to do that and really jumped ahead. In the headquarters there was Major Howard from Norwich University. Major Howard didn't graduate from here, but he was an instructor when I was a student here. He was in another department, or I didn't see much of him. But when I came out on the below-the-zone list, there were two of us at Fort Knox that came out on it, and he called me on the phone, and he said, "Well, I thought Frank would make it, but I never thought you would." (laughter) So things are weird, but Leavenworth was an exciting time. I was a captain. The majority of people were majors and lieutenant colonels. A real shock of my life in the first day was seated at tables, and there's a blank card in front of you, and the instructor said, "Now write your name on it, not your rank. Write your name on that card." Well, the guy sitting opposite me was a lieutenant colonel, and I was a captain, and I don't know his rank. What do I call him? We were all calling each other by their first names 22 rather than you find in a unit. That (inaudible) [01:41:04] like that, I'm up against it here. So I worked hard, harder than I've ever worked, and at the end of the halfway mark in the course they gave us standings of where you stand in the course, and I was number five or something. I said, "I'm working too hard." Yeah, that was good, a good period in our life. We had Saturdays and Sundays off. I had a little golf group I played with on Saturdays, and Michelob beer was local out there. We'd buy a pitcher -- the loser would buy a pitcher of beer, and that was a big deal. That was a big deal. JC: So when did you go to graduate school at the University of Alabama? RT: Strange you should ask that. When I came to the end of the course at Leavenworth a general officer, a brigadier general, came out to the course to announce to the armor officers, to the infantry officers, etc., what your next assignment would be. About the third name he read was a good friend of mine, and when he read off where he was to go this guy went "Ooohhh." The general looked down at him and said, "What's the problem?" He said, "Sir, I don't think anybody in your office ever read my request." "Oh." He said, "Major so-and-so, come out here." The guy comes out from behind the curtain with a big notebook, and the guy flaps through it, and he looks down, and he says, "I don't know what you're complaining about. It says right here, 'Anywhere in the world but Fort Knox.' And you're going to Fort Knox, your second choice." (laughter) Then he got to my name, and he said, "I want to see you right after this." I thought, oh, God, what now? So I went in, and he was in his office. There was a temporary office. And he said, "We've got a problem here," and I said, "Sir, what is it?" He said, "Well, they've got you going to graduate school, and as the chief armor officer I want you to go to an armored unit." I said, "I have a choice?" He said yes. I said, "Where will I go if I go to an armored unit?" He thought for a minute, and he said, "You'll go to the tank battalion in Hawaii." I said, "Can I discuss this with my wife at lunch?" and he said, "Sure," and I came back and said, "We have decided that we're going to go to graduate school," and that's how that worked out. JC: So you went to Tuscaloosa instead of Hawaii. RT: Yeah. (laughs) JC: Now, what degree did you get at Alabama? RT: MBA. It was a good tough course, but it was in the process of changing the curriculum of business schools, and some of it was very tough. Part of it was very simple, but some of it was very tough. I established a schedule where I went in very early in the morning, got in there before 7:00 every morning, went down to the basement of the library where I had an assigned carrel and started working until it was time for a class to begin. I'd go up to the class and go back to the basement, eat my lunch in the basement, go home at 5:00, and hardly ever did any midnight work at home. We lived a good, wonderful family life in Tuscaloosa. Now, it wasn't all easy. There had been the problems of the colleges not admitting blacks, and the president of the United States pushing hard to make them do it. 23 Then there were the riots at Ole Miss, right at that time. The army sent down its chief person who determines whether the applicants will go to college -- army applicants -- and to which college they will go to. So we all gathered, and there were people taking nuclear physics, and [we have to?] discuss with him, and he talked it back and forth, etc. Finally one young captain in the back said, "Sir, this is all very interesting, but the army's practically at war with our citizens. What the hell happen-- What do we do? What are our orders, and what are our instructions here at the University of Alabama, if the same kind of thing breaks out on this campus?" This poor old duffer who'd been the president of some college someplace sort of shook his head and said, "Well, I hope you'd be on the side of the government." (laughter) That hit right in the heart of soldiers. But it was a good program. When I left I was going to be assigned to the headquarters in US Army Europe in the comptroller's office, and you're required to stay in that position for three years to make up for your being chosen for that job. They want to use your knowledge and experience. Just before I left they changed it, and I went to the US Army Support Command in France, which had 57 separate organizations that it commanded, to include a pipeline that came in at St. Nazaire and went out to all of the air bases and army refueling, etc., and repair of tanks, repair of everything. We took German factories over, used Germans. It was a very, very exciting assignment in terms of technology, but I got assigned to the comptroller's office in that damn headquarters, and I was one of three soldiers. The rest were all civilian employees, or French. One of the people that worked for me was from Yugoslavia; he'd escaped Yugoslavia. So it was a mixed up kind of place. We lived at a French house down by the railroad station. We didn't want to live in the government quarters, we'd done enough of that. We wanted to have an experience in France. From that point of view, it was wonderful. The job was terrible, just terrible. They expected me to know everything that they did in their routine because I'd been to this business program. Well, I had to really move fast to catch up with them. My boss was a man by the name of [Birossi?]. He'd been an Italian-American soldier in World War II who married an Italian and never went home, and when they created the support command then he stayed on in Europe and became a very important man in the headquarters as the budget manager of this very vast organization. I worked like hell to try and get it straightened out. They first gave me the responsibility of working the budget of a couple of the major organizations, one the tank rebuild plant, which was -- God, it looked like General Motors out there. I finally got frustrated with it all. We'd all sit in a room, roll out our papers, and bring in the guy, the comptroller, from that organization, and you'd sit facing each other with Mr. [Birossi?] looking over your shoulder, and you'd work out a budget for them. How the hell did I know? I didn't have any basis for doing it, but we'd discuss it to get it. When this was all over and calmed down I said, "This is stupid as hell," to [Birossi?]. He said, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "We've got the world's best information technology program right in this headquarters, those guys that are working the plants do it all by technical means, punch cards, and here we are sitting around trying to argue about a number on a sheet of paper that doesn't mean a damn thing." He said, "What do you suggest?" I said, "I suggest we go to talk to them, get onto their system somehow, and work this thing out that we can make a reasonable stab at it." He said, "OK, wise guy, do it." 24 Now, there was a lieutenant colonel in this overall office who was Birossi's boss, and I went to see him and told him, I said, "Now, I'm not competent to do this. There's no question about it. However, if you give me two of those young captains of finance that work down the hall from me, I can get this thing started and going." So he assigned these two guys to me, and we changed the whole system of how we did the budgeting of US Army Europe. I got some kind of an award for that. Then they put me in another job where I had all kinds of stupid responsibilities. I had a responsibility for efficiency of each of these many, many organizations, and I got permission to send people -- Frenchmen -- back to the United States to be trained in each of those depots to do it. Then we pulled all of this together right as the secretary of defense had initiated a program to improve work force relationships, his program, and they sent it out and said, "Everybody in the army, navy, and the air force will use these procedures." And my two-star boss said, "No, we won't. We're not doing that. We got a god system, we just got it started, and, well, that's the way it will be." OK, you're the boss. So six weeks later, maybe two months later, there's a message sent to the commanding general that said "We're sending over someone from the Department of Defense to look at your program." I got called in to the CG's office, and he said, "You got two weeks to put this program in place." Well, you know, I was put into a position where I got attention, and I could do what I wanted to do, and I could get help to do it, and everything just sort of worked together. It was a great experience. But, again, it's a case of speaking up and saying what you think is wrong and finding a way to do it. I went in on the train from Orleans into Paris to the IBM plant with boxes of punch cards in my (inaudible) [01:53:43] and brought them into IBM, and we worked it out with them to do it at first before we turned it over to our own organization. That's because if we screwed it up, we'd screw them up badly. But those two finance captains did all the work. I just plowed ahead. Another time, in that same job -- I really thought -- when I got there I said, "My career is ruined. My career is ruined. Who's going to believe that I was in a damn headquarters for a support group? No, uh. I'm an armored guy. No." But anyway, they came up with another program, again, out of the Department of Defense. This time it was to work specifically with -- I can't remember the name of it, but, again, it came out of the secretary of defense's office, and again I got the job to do it. But this time I had an opportunity to start from the beginning with it. It was a matter of saving money, and we were supposed to put out programs, out to our subordinate units, and help them find money and other ways of doing business (inaudible) [01:55:09]. We started with the laundries, a simple thing, and went into the laundries with the people we trained, and they would say to the laundress, "How can you do your job better?" They'd say, "Well, I've been working at this for six years. If we did this, and that, and the other thing," and all of a sudden we weren't doing anything but saying "How do you do it?" and then helping them do it, and getting their boss to agree to it. Well, then you had to take all this information and turn it over to another agency who would check your figures, and numbers, and back and forth, and everything. That all seemed to work out, and things were going along rather well when they put me in for an award as the civilian of the year for product improvement. I was called (laughs) into Heidelberg, and they put on a parade, and the commanding general and I are -- there were other people, for other reasons, being recognized that day. I'm standing 25 beside the commanding general when the troops are passing in review, and he said, "What the hell are you doing here? This is a civilian award." I said, "Sir, you signed it." (laughter) And off we went. I just kept working. Living there was great sport, except the French are crazy. We lived in a neighborhood, as I said, on Rue de la Gale, and the house was an old one. It was rent controlled, and we had to slip the landlord money on certain days, and you'd walk up to his house with a paper bag full of money. A door would open, a hand would come out and grab the paper bag out of your thing, the extra money for the -- crazy. In the neighborhood we never made close friends except in one instance. Our youngest daughter, Ellen, went to French school. The other two kids refused; they were smart enough not to do it. Ellen and her friend [Pascale?] (inaudible) [01:57:36] walked to school with her mother and Carol, over to school. The ladies walked back from school. After lunch, walked over, back to get, march them over, again, at the end of the school day. And they talked, and they talked, and they talked. Not a single word of English was ever spoken for three years between these two women. We get back to the United States and got a very nice letter from her, in English, and she said, "You never would have improved your French the way you did if you knew I had been a nanny in Great Britain and speak English." (Cates laughs) Now, that's the dirtiest, rottenest trick I can ever imagine happening. (laughter) When we had a problem with the house, you'd try and go out and find someone that would fix the faucet. Now, there are four sizes of pipe, and there are 12 sizes of faucets, and there are 14 sizes -- and they ask you which one do you want? You don't know. So somebody has to come and measure it and go back, and two days later you've got water running again. When it came time to buy coal, we went down to the place you buy coal, and it was a storefront on the main road, right in the main store, and he's got little glass canisters with different kinds of coal in the window. You don't buy coal that way anywhere else in the world. We went in, and he wanted to know how many radiators we had in the house, and how many veins each radiator had, and how many sections were in the stove, and then he could figure out how many tons it would take to heat the house. He didn't ask if there was any broken windows, or open doors, or boards off on the roof. They did it totally unscientific. Then when you come to that decision, then they say, "Now do you want it from Belgium? Do you want it from --" you know, down the list. We want anthracite from Belgium, OK. Then they come and dump it in the house with buckets in the window of the cellar, and the whole house is covered with coal dust everywhere. And it was expensive. Living there was not easy, but we made a pact that we were going to go once a month with the kids to Paris, every time, every month, and we did, and we traveled a lot. Not any great distances, but we loved parts of France. But the French were very difficult to live with. JC: Oh, I'm sure. I've been there once. (laughs) RT: The worst one was my father had a cousin who was, in relationship to Dad, it was about six up from him in the corporation, and he was the chairman of the board. We got a call that he was coming to visit the French company that was owned by the American company, and they were going to come down and see us in this hovel (laughs). And just about the time we knew that they were coming but not exactly when they were coming, 26 the French left us with a bit of a problem. When they put in the sewer system, they left the septic tank in the house, in the basement, made of clay, and it began to leak. Do you have any idea what living in that house was like? You couldn't flush a toilet. When I'd go off to work and leave Carol, they had a deal with these crazy guys coming in, and eventually they came in. One guy came in, and he took off the top of this thing, and then he went away. She chased him down, and he said, "Oh, you've got to hire somebody else. The union won't allow me to put the hose down in here and suck out what's left. You've got to find that guy." And it went on, and on, and on, and trying to live in that house. Fortunately we got it cleaned up before Uncle George showed up for lunch. (laughter) JC: Sounds like it was quite difficult living in that house. RT: It was very difficult. Every single day one of us crossed the street to the bakery that was directly across the street from us, and we'd order a demi pan, and bring it back for breakfast, or something else. And every single day that one of us went, my own experience was I'd walk in the door -- "Bonjour, Madame." (laughter) The only guy that spoke to us lived next door, and the reason he spoke to us was that nobody else in the neighborhood, or the town, or the city would speak to him, because he had been a butcher during the Nazi occupation and gave the Nazis all the best cuts of meat. We had no phones. It took three years to get a phone, and it was a three-year tour. If you got a phone, you had nobody to call; they'd all gone home. They're crazy, just crazy. (laughs) JC: So what was the next assignment after France? RT: Well, while in France the Vietnam War broke out, and people lieutenant colonel level in Europe were being pulled back to the United States and given a command in Vietnam. So I applied to get a command in Vietnam, and they said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, you haven't finished your tour for having gone to graduate school. You can't possibly go." This is talking to somebody back in Washington. Then another job opened up, and they needed a lieutenant colonel in an armored battalion, and I called them back again. I said, "I'll come back to this job after that. How about that?" "Nope, we can't do that. We can't do that." Eventually they said, "OK, when you come home from --" I put enough pressure on them. "When you come home from France, we'll send you to Vietnam." And when we came home from France, they said, "No, you're going to go to the Armed Forces Staff College. You've been selected among the army, navy, and air force to go to the Armed Forces Staff College, for six months. After that, we'll get you a job that will get you to Vietnam." Well, you know, it's frustrating, just terribly frustrating. After the Armed Forces Staff College they told me I would go to Vietnam, but first I would go to pick up 57 tanks that had just been manufactured of a new design, and I was to form the tank battalion in the United States, train it in the United States, and take it to Vietnam. When that day came, ready to go, we had three rounds blow up in the chamber back at Aberdeen Proving Ground, and they said, "Hold it. You're no longer on the list to go. But you are going to go to the Naval War College." I couldn't get to Vietnam! It was very difficult. 27 JC: What was the Naval War College like? RT: Terrible. The Naval War College, well, we called it the sleeping room. They had two major speakers every day, one in the morning, and one in the afternoon. That was fine. I mean, I loved to hear them, and they did have a message, but it wasn't work. It was sitting there like you're turning on the television. There was no challenge to this thing at all. Now you could go and get a master's degree along with it from George Washington, but I couldn't, because I had a master's degree, so they weren't going to let me take that program. So they hired somebody the University of Massachusetts had fired from their Economics Department, an old man, to be my mentor and take me through a separate program -- nothing comes out of it other than a dissertation at the end. OK, I'll put up with it, but he was awful, and it was a waste of my time. You never had time between these people to really go to the library and do something. It was 20 minutes. What can you do in the library in 20 minutes? No, you don't. Everyone went and get good coffee, sat around and talked, etc. Oop, time to go back into the bedroom. There was nothing going on in terms of substance in the place. When I had my first time as directing my little group, I worked long and hard on the assignments, and came in the next morning and said, "OK, let's see. Now we had readings in this one, and then we had a differing opinion from this requirement, and then this one, and another one. Commander Jones, what do you think about this?" "Oh, shit," he said, "You don't think I pay any attention to that, do you? I'm in the George Washington program. I'm not going to do any of this." That was a general attitude. There wasn't any depth to what we were doing. One day the admiral in charge, who'd married a British lady and had just come back from another tour in London, said, "How would you like to have lunch at my house with a guest speaker, Todd?" I said, "Gee, that would be very nice, sir." I got up there to discover there were 12 or 13 of us at separate tables and he and the speaker was at another table. What did we do? We sat around and chatted, and ate his food, and left. He said, "How'd you like that?" I said, "What are you referring to, sir?" He said, "Well, the opportunity to be with the speaker." I said, "We weren't with the speaker. You were with the speaker." "Well, how would you handle that?" "I'd put in a round table, and we'd all sit around and talk." "What a great idea." Really, really bad stuff. So he did, and then he invited me to come, and I went, and he said, "How did that go?" I said, "Sir, that was wonderful. But if you did that in the classrooms it might help, too." "We don't have round tables in the classrooms?" He'd never been in a classroom. We didn't have one single naval officer who was nuclear qualified come to the course. They sent them to the National War College. We didn't have one single graduate of a senior college who was on the faculty. I could go on, and on, and on about how bad it was. But one day, in Vietnam, I was sitting at my desk outside General Abrams's office, and I got a call from the naval head in Vietnam. I'm trying to think of his name. I know it as well as I know my own. But anyway, he called me and said, "Russ, I got to see General Abrams." I said, "Well, he's tied up at the moment. Come on up and sit down, and I'll get you in just the minute I can break into it." He said, "Good," and he came up. We sat there, and he said, "I got to talk to General Abrams. They're going to announce this afternoon that I'm the new chief of naval operations, and I don't want him to hear it from anybody else but me." I said, "Oh, have I been waiting for this." He said, 28 "What are you talking about?" I said, "You can do something about the Naval War College that I couldn't," and I laid it out for him, and he fired the guy when he got back there. This is Zumwalt, Admiral Zumwalt. He fired the guy and changed all the programs. I mean, they were tough on him, and they've got a good school there now, or at least the last I knew of it, a very good school that has been accredited. But it was awful. JC: Did you finally get to Vietnam after the Naval War College? RT: Yeah, that's why I was sitting in General Abrams's office. I was to be sent over to be on the command list, which meant this list of people the army feels are capable of doing a job as colonel in a combat unit. They sent my name over, and then they called me back and said, "We've withdrawn your name." (sighs deeply) I said, "Come on, guys. This isn't fair." He's "Hold it, hold it, hold it. They're looking for an assistant to General Abrams, and we've sent your name in." I said, "Look, I've met General Abrams a few times. I don't think he was very impressed with me. I don't think he'll select me off of any list of yours." He said, "There is no list. We only sent your name." (laughter) So I went over there, and I sat for, oh, eight months I guess in General Cao Van Vien's office, who was the head of the Vietnamese armed forces, and I acted as a liaison between General Abrams and General Cao Van Vien, of which there was no requirement. Those guys talked to each other whenever they wanted to. But I represented General Abrams when General Cao Van Vien called the other -- the Koreans, the Australians, the New Zealanders, etc., etc. -- together on a Monday morning to have a meeting, and that was interesting, and I learned a lot, and I met a lot of people. Eventually the secretary of the staff rotated home, and I took his slot. You actually work for the chief of staff, but I read and decided which messages that came in that night would go into General Abrams the next morning, so I got to work very, very early and stayed very, very late, day after day after day, seven days a week. But I really loved working for the guy. Every Saturday morning we would meet with the commanders of the army, navy, air force, etc., the CIA, in the basement of our building, and it was general so-and-so, admiral so-and-so, etc., and Colonel Todd. And Colonel Todd sat in the back of the room and checked -- again, a great learning experience. Watching the interrelationship between these very, very senior commanders was a great experience. Then I went with General Abrams every Monday morning down to brief the ambassador. We'd drive down in his sedan. On Sunday I'd prepare a book for him that he'd go over, and then he'd have that in front of him. He never read it. He never sat in front of the ambassador and read it. I'd be on pins and needles all the time that he'd turn to me and say, "What the hell's this?" (laughs) But he was great. Then I got a command. I left the headquarters and went out and joined the 24th Division as a brigade commander, and I'd been there about eight days when it was announced that the brigade was to go home. (laughs) The next day I got a call on the radio, out flying around in my helicopter -- I had seven battalions in the brigade at the time -- from the corps commander, General Davidson, and General Davidson said, "Meet me at coordinates so-and-so," and we both flew into a point. He said, "I'm pulling you out of this. I've got a problem with the Royal Thai Army. The officer we have working 29 with them is not acceptable any longer to the Royal Thai Army. I need somebody tomorrow, and you're it." That was the craziest thing I've ever been involved in. Wonderful, wonderful Thai commander, who began his military experience at age five in a military academy run by the government. He finished his education in France. The French owned Indonesia. Thailand (inaudible) [02:16:30]. So there we were. Day in and day out, he and I would receive the same briefing. He'd get it in Thai, and his aide-de-camp would give it to me in English. We never ever, ever came to the same solution. We were generations in thought apart. For example, in World War II Thailand never declared war on anybody, but went to war against the Allied forces when they thought Japan was winning. This fellow was a captain in the Thai Army, and he did something very spectacular -- whatever it was, I don't know, very heroic. He was called back to the capital, and he was given the Royal Order of the White Elephant or something. They'd give out five for every war. This was something very, very special, parades, the whole business. He went back to his unit, and then the Thais decided that the Japanese weren't winning the war, and they changed and became our allies. Now you're not going to believe this. They called him back and took the medal because he was fighting on the wrong side. (laughs) I could go on forever on this. My brain couldn't absorb it. When I'd left that and gone back to the United States, I guess when this happened -- I don't remember where I was, but anyway, I wrote him a letter, and I said, "What in the world is going on in Bangkok? You were the commander of the 1st Division, responsible for the security of Bangkok. Your father-in-law is the dictator. They're rioting in the streets, and, to the best I know, nothing's happening." He wrote back to me, after some (inaudible) [02:19:06] time, and said, "Well, you just don't understand our way of thinking. The soldiers had killed some civilians who were rioting, so I went back to my BOQ and stayed there two weeks, and when I came back my father-in-law had been deposed, and the fighting was over." Huh? (laughs) And it wasn't that he wasn't a good soldier, and it wasn't that he was afraid of anything. No, we'd fly around in his damn helicopter and take it places I never would have gone. On the other hand, he had some VIPs coming over, and he said, "We can't take the helicopter today. I'm going to use it tomorrow for some Thai VIPs, and I don't want any fingerprints on it, I don't want to make sure there's no bullet holes in the thing. We'll just take this other thing." What? We couldn't come together. At one point, the real one that almost got me in trouble -- I think it was on Thanksgiving -- our base camp also had three units in it from the 1st Cavalry Division, and the Thais, and the Thais who were responsible for the security, and I was responsible to the US headquarters. Well, on the big army base, maybe 15 miles away, on Thanksgiving night everything went up in the air, flares, and shooting, and machine guns, and all the Thais thought this was great, and they all did it. He called me in the next morning, and he laid me out. He said, "No Thai would ever do that. Your Americans did this." Well, OK, I'll suck it up. "I assure you it won't happen again, sir." So come New Year's time, I put out to my staff with each of his units, where they normally served, to stay with them all night and record everything that happened in that TOC. Next morning he got me again when I went in there. I said, "Sir, before we say anything else, I suggest you talk to your TOC officer." He went down there, and those 30 guys, we made them record everything, and he discovered that it was his units that were doing it. What do you suppose his answer to that one was? JC: I don't know. RT: He called in his senior officers and said, "I'm resigning from the army. You've let me down." And he went back into his hooch and stayed there for about three days. I woke up at the end of three days early in the morning, and the whole goddamn Thai Army that was posted in Vietnam was out there in a formation. I walked out to see what was going on and stood behind him -- he was up on a platform -- and they all apologized, etc., and he forgave them, and they went back into the woods to their positions. They'd left their fighting positions to come back and apologize to the commanding general. JC: Oh, wow. RT: (laughs) You can find one worse than that, I'll bet. My goodness. JC: Want to stop again? (break in audio) JC: Let's stop here, because we've done about another hour and 10 minutes. (break in audio) RT: Let's -- (break in audio) [02:23:15] JC: All right, this is Joseph Cates. Today is May 19, 2016. This is my second interview with Major General Russell Todd. This interview is taking place at the Sullivan Museum and History Center. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. So when we left off last time we had gone through Vietnam, and you're ready for your next assignment. What was that? RT: OK. When the Royal Thai Army left Vietnam I moved out to a brigade, as I said earlier. But the time with the brigade was very unsatisfactory to me as a professional. It was a little more than a month, and that's not what I considered to be a command. So thinking about what would happen when I got home, I called to the Pentagon, talked to the people in armor branch. A lieutenant colonel sits on a desk and shuffles the papers for colonels and helps make the decisions. I told him I wanted to have a particular command at Fort Lewis, Washington, that I knew the command was about to change. And they said, "Oh, we've already appointed somebody to that port. But you are coming back to go to the Pentagon." 31 I had fought off the Pentagon earlier in my tour. When I was working for General Abrams I got a call from the Pentagon that said "We're bringing you back to the United States because a new position has opened up, and it calls for a brigadier general, and although you're only a colonel, we want you to fill that position." And I said, "Tell me about it." They said, "Well, you're going to be the army's first drug-and-alcohol-abuse officer." I said, "You've been watching what I'm drinking." He said, "No, this is what we've got in mind for you." And I said, "That isn't going to work. It just isn't going to work. I'm over here on a two-year tour, and if you want me to leave here, I'll give you General Abrams's telephone number, and you can call him and ask him to release me." Well, no, they didn't think they would do that. (laughs) So when I went back I went to the Pentagon, and there I went to work for a four-star general who I had met several times, because he traveled to Vietnam back and forth, General Kerwin, a wonderful, wonderful soldier. And when I reported in he told me that I was going to be the head of the department that he supervised for the Modern Volunteer Army. My job would be to coordinate all of the programs that were going on both at posts, camps, and stations around the country and around the world, and also within the Pentagon, to evaluate where we ought to be going. Well, OK. It wasn't my first choice. I had about, oh, 10 lieutenant colonels working for me in a very small office that didn't have any windows, and there was a lieutenant general working in the chief of staff's office whose title was the chief of modern volunteer army. So I was torn between two very senior officers who didn't agree with each other very often, and the job went on, and back and forth, and up and down, but a lot of answering letters from the Congress and this kind of thing, and then evaluating things that came from the field. Well, one day I was up in the next level in the Pentagon, because I'd been called by that lieutenant general, and he started chewing me out just something awful for reasons I couldn't explain. Finally he said, "I'm going down and see General Kerwin." My boss. What the hell's this about? So I was standing alone in his office. He went out a side door, and I said, "I've got to get to General Kerwin quick." So I picked up -- they have red phones that go between the very senior officers. I picked it up and dialed General Kerwin's office, and he has to answer that, no matter what's going on. And I said, "Sir, we got trouble," and told him what was going on. I saw him later in the day. He said, "Thanks. That really made a difference." From that moment on, he treated me like I was one of his best friends and had faith in what I was doing. Now, they did bring back in a major general who had just stopped commanding the 82nd Airborne Division, and he came in, and he was my immediate supervisor. But General Kerwin made a proposal -- not a proposal -- instructions to everybody about that time that said "Everybody that works for me in the deputy chief of staff personnel office is going to spend four years in this job." I could see my chances of getting a second shot at a brigade just going out the window. Carol and I had bought a house in Washington, the first home we ever owned. In France it was a rental, and everything else was army quarters. So this was special. She loved that house. She took a job in Washington, DC, in the personnel department, and then she had done a lot of that before, and that was sort of a big part of what she had done at Radcliffe after Smith, and she loved that job. In fact, everywhere we went she tried to find a job that would keep her busy and active. 32 So there we were, balancing back and forth. Now what do I do? Well, I'll go back to my old trick and call the people in my branch on the phone, and I called this young man early one morning before anybody else was in the office, and he happened to be there. I told him my plight, that I'd been really cheated in that one month I'd had in the thing, and General Davidson had said I was coming to Europe with him to command a brigade, and that didn't work out once he found out I'd never been in the Pentagon. "So I want a command, and I want to lay it out right now. I want you to start working on it." He said, "Sir, I'm not sure I can do that." I said, "Well, what time do you come to work?" He said, "Well, I'm in here by 8:00 every morning." I said, "Get in at 7:30 on Monday, because I'm going to call you every goddamn Monday I'm sitting at this desk," and I did. Eventually he said, "I've made an appointment with you with my boss, Colonel [Touche?], who oversees all the branches for colonels." I walked over, and it was my old friend from Fort Knox who had been the senior aide when I was the junior aide to General Collier. He had talked it over with the committee that makes these kinds of decisions, and they were going to put my name in nomination to go back onto the brigade commanders list. Great. A few weeks later I get a phone call that says "We put your name before the committee, and you are on the list, and you're number two." Uh-oh. I'm supposed to spend four years working for General Kerwin? (laughs) So a little later they call back and said, "Whoa. Wait. In the 2nd Armored Division the brigade commander has moved up to be chief of staff, and that brigade is open." I said, "OK. Now you guys call General Kerwin and tell him that you're pulling me out." They said, "Like hell we will." (laughter) So I went to see General Kerwin, and he sort of grimaced and (inaudible) [02:32:24]. He said, "You know my policy." I said, "Yes, I do, sir, but this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for me." And he said, "I'll tell you tomorrow." So the next day he called me, and he said, "Against my better judgment I'm going to let you go to that command. But let me tell you this. The day that's over you're coming back to work for me." I said, "Yes, sir. Thank you." I ran home. (laughs) A little later, in time, the moving truck was in front of the house. I'd gone home, checked out of the office, done everything appropriately, and gone back, and there was a phone call waiting for me at home. General Kerwin. He went on to say what he really wanted me to do, wouldn't I know, is that -- "Sir, we've made our deal," and he says, "OK, but remember, I'm going to get you when you get (inaudible) [02:33:21]." And that was very pleasing to me. I loved the idea of working for him. But, again, it was a matter of just working your way through the system. It was terribly important to my career and to me. People were telling me that "You don't have to do this" kind of thing. You know, "You've done all those kinds of things." But no, that wasn't the career I wanted. So I went to the 2nd Armored Division and took over the 3rd Brigade of the 2nd Armored Division at Fort Hood, Texas, and that was a real fun thing. I really enjoyed it. I had a lot of good people working for me. Some of them went on to become general officers later on. The first thing that happened was they told me that the brigade in one month is going to move to Germany on Operation [Forger?]. Does that mean anything to you? Well, in the Cold War we had built all kinds of home hutches and places to store tanks and materials that take a lot of time to get into the theater. If they said, "OK, the balloon went up. Come over here," you wouldn't have had any -- you'd have to wait for your 33 tanks for a month. So they had all those vehicles and stuff over there, and every year we went over and exercised the idea of flying over -- not me, the army did. It was my brigade's turn, and it was just great. I had planned that thing for every possible contingency, in my mind, and we laid it out with the staff. I said, "Now if this happens, or that happens, or this happens, this is what we'll do. Plan A, B, C, and D." And damn, I figured everything except it was going to snow at Fort Hood, and the air force wouldn't show up. (laughter) So we were about two days late getting there, and it slowed things up. But we went out on maneuvers for about a month and a half, and that was a great experience. I'd done it as a company commander when I was stationed in Europe, but as a brigade -- when I went over I've been detached from the 2nd Armored Division of the United States and attached to the 1st Infantry Division, when I got over to Europe. There for the first time I met a fellow named (laughs) -- I met someone, a senior officer, a brigadier general who, because my brigade wasn't part of his division, I had to go through the ropes of him looking over my shoulder for the first three weeks of what we were doing. It wasn't easy. Eventually he and I had a good reputation among each other, and then we're good. It worked out pretty well. Well, his name is Fuller, Fred Fuller. Just to move that part of the story a little further forward, when I went to Forces Command he was the DESOPS, and I was the assistant -- correction, he was the DESPER, personnel, and I was the assistant DESOPS. And again, good friends, you know. No, sir. I had to prove myself all over again to him. That was tough. That was tough. Then when I became division commander at Fort Hood, would you believe they made him the corps commander, and my boss again? And again, I went through the process. I called it rook training, he wanted to test me on everything that was going on, and then eventually he agreed, and we got along. That was a very difficult relationship I had with that individual. So we came back from Germany after the Reforger, and it was time to change division commanders. A general officer that I had met once or twice but didn't know came in as the two-star commanding the (inaudible) [02:38:26]. This was a fight for my life. He, in my opinion, didn't represent a good soldier. He would drive in his jeep with the two stars on the front, down the street, and the men in the division would say, "Hi, General," and he'd wave back, "Hi." No saluting, none of this. He would come around in my battalion and ask the company commander and the battalion commander to see their operational reports, and particularly the readiness reports, whether or not this tank would go or that one. He required them, not required them, but pushed hard for them to like take something off this tank and put it on that tank, and now we've created another tank that this one isn't working, this one if you take the parts and put it on this one, that's one less tank, but will look that much better. It was everything how you looked. Eventually he was promoted to lieutenant general and shipped to Europe, and his chief of staff caught on to his way of life, reported it. He got thrown out of the army, reduced to major general, and was retired. But that was a tough fight, that was a tough fight. In town now there's a major general, retired, John Greenway. Maybe you've met Phyllis. JC: I have. RT: Well, John Greenway was my chief of staff in the brigade, and I don't know how many times he saved my life. He'd say, "No, no, no, don't go up there and tell that general off. 34 Don't do it. Stop here." One time I actually said, "The hell with you, John, I'm going up there." I was really mad. Again, he had ordered my people to do something that was not proper. So John called up the division chief of staff, who was a good friend, and said, "Russ is on the way. Stop him." (laughs) So I never got in to see him, and I calmed down, and the chief of staff discussed it with me in a way. But it was a difficult, difficult system to live with, but I had wonderful people working for me. JC: Well, that's good. RT: Yeah. JC: What year is this? RT: Oh, my God. (inaudible) [02:41:04] I can't remember my birthday. (laughter) It was about '60 something, yeah. I came back to the United States, and I was assigned to forces command, where General Kerwin was, the man that said, "You're going to go work for me," and I went to work for General Kerwin just as I'd been promoted by the system to be brigadier general. I worked for him for two years and then another year with General Rogers, who went on to be the chief of staff of the army, and it was great. Real professionals who understood various ways of handling people beautifully. I must admit, he had a chief of staff who wasn't quite up to speed in my opinion, and as a result I found myself bypassing the chief of staff, which really isn't a very good idea. But both General Kerwin and General Rogers, when I was there, would call me on the phone directly and ask me to do something. As the junior brigadier general at Fort McPherson, Georgia, they immediately appointed me to be club officer, and to be the president of the Association of the United States Army chapter at Fort McPherson. I was really the junior guy in that headquarters as far as a general officer is concerned. The biggest thing that happened to me really there was that that's when we had the baby lift out of Vietnam, and then we had the evacuation of Vietnam. In the operations business at forces command, we had the responsibility of preparing those units in the United States, wherever they might be involved, to prepare them for the influx of people. I was up a lot of nights and really mad at the air force sometimes. They would bring in planes early, before we could finish taking people off the previous planes and get them, kind of thing. They finally came around. But it was a real wonderful experience as far as I'm concerned. I had the thrill of getting a thank you letter from the president and being called in by the State Department, who had the responsibility of taking these people once they arrived in the United States -- when they arrived in the United States the army was responsible for them. We took old barracks and tried to fix them up to be for families and all the rest of it. And the next step was to put them out into the population in America, and that was done by the State Department. At the end of this, the State Department gave me an award and invited me over to Foggy Bottom, and it was carried out in the formal part of that. It's a very ordinary-looking building, but inside, on the top floor, they have collected and put in there all the furnishing and antiques of America. They would go to somebody that had something that the State Department wanted, and they would say "We would like to have it, and we will replicate it exactly, and give you back the replication." They built -- it's a museum, it's a wonderful, wonderful museum of 35 American furniture through time. I was really impressed with it being there. I wasn't that impressed with the State Dept- people in Vietnam. (laughs) It was very interesting. JC: Yes, sir. So this was around 1975, that would be (crosstalk; inaudible) [02:45:47]. RT: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I did one or two year. JC: Where were you from Fort McPherson? RT: From Fort McPherson, when my immediate boss left General Rogers called me in and said, "I want you to be my full-time top guy and deputy chief of staff operations." I said, "No, General, that isn't right." "What are you talking about, it isn't right?" I said, "You want someone that's been a division commander to be in that job. I mean, you're dealing with all those division commanders, and if the guy that's passing the instructions hasn't had the experience of being a division commander, it doesn't come through right." And he said, "All right. All right." About a year later I was on a board in Washington. You're sent in to do a lot of those things. Interestingly enough, on this particular one I was the head of the board for captains being promoted to major, and I got in trouble with General Rogers. The instructions we had were "These are the formulas, etc., that you follow when you're looking at the history of their being in the service. You can add to this other things, if you, as a board, want to do it." The first thing we added to it was that any captain who had served a normal period of time as a captain in the combat arms branches and had not had a company wasn't to be promoted on this occasion to major. Passing up a captain, you pass up the real army and the real understanding of the army, and, oh, boy. It turns out that we eliminated from being promoted five captains at West Point, instructors, and that reverberated around the world. (laughs) General Rogers finally calmed down. Then on another occasion when I was away in Washington he called me on the phone and said, "The major generals promotion list has just come out." I said, "Oh, good. Who's on it?" and they said, "You are." Oh, wow. After I went back he called me in his office and said, "Now, I'm going to send you to Fort Hood to command a division." Previous discussion, you got to have a command. I said, "Oh, my. Where's George going?" And he looked at me with this great strain on his face and said, "George who?" I said, "George Patton, 2nd Armored Division." I had been in the 2nd Armored Division twice. Four men have commanded the 2nd Armored Division, three of them during World War II. I knew that was my place in life. Well, he said, "You're going to the 1st Cav." Of course, when I'd been there as a brigade commander the 1st Cav was the enemy. (laughter) It was a little difficult to change my mindset that I was now the head of the 1st Cavalry Division, but it turned out to be a good assignment, too. We were immediately assigned a mission of working on something that was called Division '86, and this was the '76-'77 time frame. What we would do is to experiment with different organizational concepts, try them out, and another R&D organization would evaluate whether this was a good idea, or whether it wasn't a good idea. But, man, was that a lot of work. We had soldiers picking up their mattresses and marching over two streets, and then joining another company, because now we were trying -- we were going to have tank platoons with only four tanks rather than five tanks, 36 and these guys had to fill in for the -- you know, back and forth, and up and down. It was a crazy time, but it was very, very rewarding. We lived next door to George Patton and Joanne Patton, and as a matter of fact we had become very close friends over the time we were in the army. We went home on vacations sometimes by accident at the same time, back in New England, and other times purposefully. But we celebrated our twenty-fifth wedding anniversary together, both divisions, at the club, and it was officers. It was really good sport. JC: Was that your last command? RT: No. They sent me to -- at one Fort Hood, after two years of commanding the division, I went down and commanded something called [Tecada?] [02:51:38], which was a research and development experimental station kind of thing. I was doing to the rest of the world what they'd been doing to me, for two years I guess, at which point I was shipped over to Europe to be the deputy chief of staff for operations under General Kroesen. He was one of the most magnificent soldiers I'd ever met. I worked for him once before for a short time, but he was first class. Then I got a call from Loring Hart, president of Norwich University, who I'd gotten to know -- over his 10-year span as president -- pretty well. In my traveling around at various times, I was the head of the Norwich Club of Georgia, the Norwich Club of Fort Hood, the Norwich Club in Europe. They'd come over to visit, and we became close. I had come home on leave to see my dad, who was in bad trouble health wise, and I got a call from Loring Hart to my dad's home down in New Hampshire. He said, "I need you to come up here. I need to talk to you; it's important." And I said, "Gee, I don't know. Dad is not well, I don't know how long he's going to live, and I can't be here very long, so I really and truly want to see as much of him as I can." He said, "Well, afterward, after this weekend" -- it was a big alumni weekend -- "I'll stop in to see you." I said OK. Well, Mother got a hold of me, and Dad got a hold of me and said, "Go on up there." Dad said, "Get a hold of my classmates and tell them I'll be there next year." Well, I knew most of his classmates. When I arrived I found them at lunch in the Armory, and I walked down to the table, the half where they were, and started saying this lie about my father, he's going to be getting well, and he'll see you next year when he comes. All of a sudden the most unusual thing happened. There was this great noise in the Armory, and it kept getting louder and louder and louder. As this individual coming into the room got closer to our table, I discovered that it was General Harmon coming back, and all of these people were saying, "Ernie, Ernie, Ernie, Ernie." I couldn't believe it, you know, really and truly. It showed me just exactly how much he was loved by this institution. That doesn't mean he didn't make a lot of mistakes at times, but he really pulled us out of the woods. So Loring Hart stops in at the house and says, "The board at Norwich University has told me that 10 years is enough, and I'm going to retire. I want you to put your name on the list to be considered." I said, "You're a PhD, you taught English, you became the dean of the university. I don't have any of that." He said, "And you don't need it either, because I'm absolutely certain they're going to choose a soldier." I said, "What do you know, I'm qualified." I went back to Europe, told my boss, and then came back. I made a couple of trips back and forth. I told my boss, which was General Kroesen, what was 37 going on, and then went to see the chief of staff of the army to tell him that I was putting in my papers. You know, after you've been division commander you owe the army something, because of the experience they've given you. So I went to see General "Shy" Meyer, who I'd known in Vietnam, and I was a little dubious here. What will he say? So I told him, and he jumped up from behind his chair, rushed around to my side of his desk, shook my hand, and said, "Boy, that's just exactly what I want to do when I get out." (laughter) Then, unfortunately, and this doesn't have to be spread around, he told me that my name had been submitted to be promoted to Lieutenant General, and it is now before the Congress. Had I not put this in and had I been selected, I was going to go to one of two different jobs, and neither one of them sounded as much fun to me as coming home. Not that I could change my mind. Once you've told the army you're retiring, you're retiring. You don't change your mind. So that's how I got here. JC: What were the other two choices? RT: To be the chief of staff of USEUCOM, which was for the European theater of all of the activities there, and the other one was on the joint staff, doing the DES-OPS kind of work, which is called the J5. JC: So you come to Norwich. Talk a little bit about the application process, because I know Phil Marsilius says in his oral history that they gave you an eight-point plan that they wanted implemented. RT: Yeah. Very unusual I thought, and very useful. Before I get to that (laughs), Carol and I came. We went to New York City and joined a committee of the board who were involved in the selection process. The plane was late, the taxis weren't running, and we were late getting to this thing. Carol was a little nervous that that showed that maybe we weren't working hard enough to get there. They said to me, "We've just finished lunch. Do you want something to eat?" and I said, "Oh, yeah. How about a bowl of onion soup?" Carol said to me afterward, "You could have chosen anything but that cheese dangling out of your mouth." (laughter) But, to me, we had a wonderful conversation, and quite frankly I left in the cab going back to the airport with a member of the board who sat there and congratulated us, because they were certain that the board was now going to select us. Yeah, interesting. Where were we in our discussion? JC: The eight-point plan. RT: Yeah. I can't tell you what the eight-points are right now, but they were all reasonable, one of which was to make Vermont College work, the system of the two institutions together, and that's interesting, too. On that point I tried very hard -- they put a lot of pressure on Loring to go up to Vermont College at least twice a week. He'd go home, changed out of his uniform into civilian clothes, go up to Vermont College, and I don't know what he did, presumably he did good things, and came back again. I got into that routine with him, and I found that Vermont College was in deep trouble, I mean, in my opinion. Over time Vermont College had reduced the quality of their education in order 38 to sustain the number of students they needed, and they had all kinds of programs going that didn't make a lot of sense. They had a nursing program that was excellent. Excellent. They had just bought some programs from -- oh, what's the name of it? JC: Goddard? RT: Goddard College, and they were difficult to mesh into the family. For example, I hadn't been here very long, and I got a call from Mrs. Lippincott, who was the chief officer of Vermont College and had previously been Loring's assistant. I got a call that said, "There's going to be a graduation on Friday" -- this was about Wednesday -- "and it's going to be outside at Vermont College. It's going to be one of the Goddard programs that's graduating at this time. They would like to invite you to be part of their graduation." So I said, "Fine, I'll be there." But before I went I hadn't heard anything more, so I called up to find out, and I said, "Now, what's my role in this? Do I hand out the diplomas? Do I make a speech, do I congratulate them from the platform? What do I do?" They said, "Oh, no, they just want you to sit there and be present. They do all this themselves." OK. I can live with that, and we'll see what happens. The first student to graduate came up, gave a little speech, each one of them, and then took their diploma and put it from their left hand to their right hand, and went back to their chair. The institution wasn't involved. This happened seven or eight times before I really said this is something we've got to look at. Then they decided, or they didn't then decide, the next thing was to have a musical rendition. They had a fellow with a fife and a piano player, and they pushed the piano out toward the group, and the front leg broke off pushing it through the grass. They somehow got it jacked up and started, and the flute player -- well, it was awful, just awful. The next day I said to my vice president, Jim Galloway, major general, retired, I told Jim what had happened, and he said, "You know, you weren't the first. I was the first. The same sort of thing went on, but it was crazier when I was up there." I said, "Tell me." He said, "The flute player was in a tree." (laughter) So we spent some time trying to bring it into the focus. Quite frankly they had some fine professors. They just didn't have a system involved. JC: I've always heard Goddard is a little strange. RT: Well, put it this way. One time Carol and I invited the president of -- oh, in Burlington. JC: UVM? RT: N