Suchergebnisse

Entrepreneurship education dianggap mempunyai pengaruh terhadap nascent halalpreneurial intention. Penelitian ini menggunakan mahasiswa Muslim di Indonesia yang sedang atau telah menempuh mata kuliah kewirausahaan sebagai obyek penelitian. Selain itu, entrepreneurship education dapat menjadi faktor penting timbulnya commitment to entrepreneurship pada mahasiswa dan menumbuhkan niat berbisnis dikalangan mahasiswa. Hal ini karena entrepreneurship diakui sebagai cara untuk menciptakan lapangan kerja dan mengurangi pengangguran. Menggunakan metode penelitian kuantitatif dan kuesioner yang disebarkan secara online kepada responden mahasiswa Muslim, ditemukan bahwa entrepreneurship education dan commitment to entrepreneurship berkaitan dengan nascent halalpreneurial intention pada mahasiswa Muslim di Surabaya. Kata Kunci: Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneurship education, Commitment to entrepreneurship, Innovativeness, Nascent halalpreneurial intention. ABSTRACT Entrepreneurship education is considered to have an influence on nascent halalpreneurial intention. This study uses Muslim students in Indonesia who are currently taking or have taken entrepreneurship courses as research objects. In addition, entrepreneurship education can be an important factor in generating commitment to entrepreneurship among students and fostering business intentions among students. This is because entrepreneurship is recognized as a way to create jobs and reduce unemployment. Using quantitative research methods and questionnaires distributed online to Muslim student respondents, it was found that entrepreneurship education and commitment to entrepreneurship were related to nascent halalpreneurial intention to Muslim students in Surabaya. Keywords: Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneurship education, Commitment to entrepreneurship, Innovativeness, Nascent halalpreneurial intention. DAFTAR PUSTAKA Adam, A., & Fayolle, A. (2015). 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Part one of an interview with George Antonioni. Topics include: Family history. How his mother started in the restaurant business and opened the Lazy A and then the Il Camino. What it was like making pizza and working in the Lazy A. How his parents came to the U.S. from Italy. His parents settled in Leominster. Italian clubs in the Fitchburg-Leominster area. George's childhood memories of food, reading, and travel. Speaking English at home. His mother's work history. Working in the family restaurant business. George's education and work as a principal and teacher in the Leominster school system. How he knew Norma, his wife. ; 1 WENDY: This is Wendy Rhodes online with the Center for Italian Culture at Fitchburg State College. It's Monday, September 24th, 10:20 AM, and we're here at the home of… GEORGE: George Antonioni, 24 Dillon Street, Leominster, Massachusetts. WENDY: Okay, and with us is… ANNE: Anne Masifero. WENDY: And… NORMA: With Norma. WENDY: Okay. So George, thank you for agreeing to do this, first of all, and maybe we should start with the restaurant business. Can you tell me about your parents? GEORGE: Yes. My parents came over as children; in fact, they came over the same year, 1916. My mother was 10 years old and my father was 12. And they grew up… my father at first was in Oakdale living with his uncle on a farm, and upon reaching 16, he moved back to the Leominster-Fitchburg area. My mother lived down on the Railroad Street with her parents until she, uh, married my father at which time they moved to Leominster because they both worked at DuPont. And over the years, my mother always had a yen to cook. WENDY: Could you just tell us your mother's name? Including… GEORGE: Ilda, Ilda Cattel. And, um, in fact they lived in Fitchburg. And as we grew up, my parents, of course, were not able to go to school too long. My mother stopped school at the age of 13, and my father at about 14 or 15. But my mother was tri-lingual; she could speak French, Italian, English and wrote as well as any high school student. And my father was a well-educated man for he always read, and they insisted on us studying at all times. We were at times a semi-Italian family and other times an American family. We did not speak Italian at home. But during the war, my mother finally convinced my father that perhaps she could have a restaurant.2 WENDY: And which for? Which restaurant? GEORGE: This was the Lazy A Restau-, at World War II. And upon coming home, my mother was cooking in the house and sending products out. She was making a lot of pizza and éclairs. And then, in 1948 they started The Lazy A Restaurant. It's not an Italian name, but that was the lazy Antonioni's. WENDY: [Unintelligible - 00:02:57] GEORGE: You could not be lazy there. WENDY: So where does the term "lazy" come from? GEORGE: My brother, I believe, thought of the name The Lazy A. And so we carried that restaurant for 10 years, I believe; and it probably was the third Italian restaurant that the city had had because Monti's was, I believe, the first and still in existence, and that was started way in the '30s. And then for a brief period there was another Italian restaurant, Concheto's. You probably remember that. That was very highly successful but did not stay in business for too long. And then The Lazy A came in. And The Lazy A is now called The Gondola and it's still in business. And then… WENDY: Where is The Lazy A? GEORGE: On Lancaster Street. WENDY: Now, is this close to where you lived? GEORGE: Yes, we lived on Longwood Avenue, so the house was on Longwood Avenue and the restaurant was on Lancaster Street. [We're home from three blocks] straight through, so there's no problem about having to travel; and I had married and my wife came to Leominster to live, and we stayed with my folks because I was still in college, and we're all working in the restaurant. And then we get out of the business, and my mother got anxious again and wanted to go back in business again, and so they started the Il Camino Restaurant, which is down on Central Street. And that too was a highly successful restaurant; but at this time they start and 3 get up in age, you know. My brother was not interested in taking it over; he was a lawyer and I had just been promoted to junior high school principalship, so I wasn't interested in taking the business over. Only my wife was, and we didn't do it. So it's a strange thing. We sold the Lazy A to Mary and Gus Lelli; and Gus is a partner in the business, and his wife is an Angelini. And then when we sold the Il Camino, that's Lelli's wife's sister is an Angelini also. Well, married and this [Chikielini], and her daughter bought the restaurant; so we actually sold it both times to Angelinis, but the Daigneault's on it 'cause the husband is a survivor. WENDY: Okay. The Angelini… GEORGE: Still a lot of Angelinis. WENDY: I haven't interviewed anyone yet by that name. But getting back to the restaurant business, can you explain a little bit more about your mother? You said that she started making éclairs and pizza? GEORGE: Yes. WENDY: So what does that mean? She made it for whom? GEORGE: Well, we lived at -- the Lancaster Street lots faced DuPont, and my mother was known as a very good cook. And she used to make pizza, and so they would order it from her. So when they left on Fridays especially, she would have a large number of pizzas and have it delivered at DuPont. And éclairs. Because of those, they didn't eat meat on Friday evening. So pizza was a big item. So we take over 30, 40, 50 pizzas; and so my father knew that the business would succeed. But just in case the business did not succeed, the original building was such that you could convert it easily into a four-room house. So the financial risk wasn't as great as it probably would have been if you built it as a restaurant per se. WENDY: Who made all of the bread dough or the pizza dough?4 GEORGE: We made it. What we would do on a Friday, my mother would be the cook and take care of all the restaurant part. My father and my brother would be making the pizzas, that is, putting the ingredients on; and we had another person who'd be rolling the dough. We didn't flip it like they do now; we bought a pie-making machine, okay, down in Boston, and my mother had bought some dough down there and she worked it around and they could get a nice round pizza right there, so. I think they bought it from Johnson and Johnson, and I think after that Johnson and Johnson's [unintelligible - 00:07:51] the pie-making machine is a pizza machine also, because it's… WENDY: Can you explain the workings of it? GEORGE: Well, I guess if you… all it was a set of rollers, and you would feed the dough through the roller and it'd shape it as you push the tube. And you get any size you want depending on how big the pizza dough you put through. And then you put it in the pan and you put all of them aside and let them raise. Because on those days, raised pizza dough was the rage. It wasn't like today where you have all the thin pizza crust. It was still thick dough on those days. WENDY: Now, is that called Sicilian? GEORGE: Now they call it Sicilian pizza, but everybody who made pizza in the old days was more of a half-inch thick. WENDY: And what kind of toppings? GEORGE: On the toppings, my brother and my father would put tomato, a little bit of oregano, grated cheese -- the mozzarella hadn't really come in yet because mozzarella's a later thing. But those days it was grated cheese, and we put on anchovies. Friday was popular. At the end of the week, you put peppers, onions and hamburg. We use to call that The Summer Special. And while they did all that work, I had the easy job; all I did was answer the telephone, wrap 5 it in, give the pizzas to the customers. For two hours that's all I did. WENDY: That's all you do? GEORGE: That's how big a business it was. WENDY: We can stop and take a break. GEORGE: Excuse me? WENDY: Would you like to stop? GEORGE: Yeah, I get a… WENDY: Okay. GEORGE: We had a very big business, very big business. And of course, Norma was out, blown all the way to sink. As I said, Norma would be there also and she'll be a waitress and take care of the dining room; and then when the other girls came in, Norma's day was not done. Now she became my mother's assistant and go on with cooking also. WENDY: So you must have liked it. NORMA: I did like it. WENDY: Sounds like a lot NORMA: [Unintelligible - 00:10:08] WENDY: You don't mind doing it. NORMA: I don't mind doing it. GEORGE: When I married Norma, she didn't know how to cook. WENDY: I guess that helps [laughter]. GEORGE: Norma was working… well, in the economy [unintelligible - 00:10:25] things like that. Actually she was down at the MIT Lincoln Lab a while also. So she had been around, but she didn't cook, assisted with the cooking at home. NORMA: I was the cleaner. WENDY: You were the cleaner? I could see why you'd want to learn how to cook then.6 GEORGE: But now she's an excellent cook. My brother said she's the best in the family on cooking. From a beginner to the top. And that's pretty how much we did it. WENDY: Let me clarify something. You said that your mother began with the pizzas and the éclairs because she was primarily catering to the DuPont crowd and you would bring them. Now, was the restaurant open? GEORGE: No, not at that time. And just before we opened, actually, she was delivering pizzas on Friday noontime to Foster [Grant], which was a big company in town on those days, and -- I still have one of the big pants that we used to use. And we'd take those up there and they would sell them in their lunchroom, because they had a lunchroom. It was such a big place and they'd buy four to six sheets of pizza every Friday. WENDY: And then they would reheat them, or…? GEORGE: Well, they come up hot and we'd give them right up there to them. And I don't think they had to reheat them, but they would sell them. And it's quite a thing. She had a going business before she was even opening the door. WENDY: Yeah, when did she begin making the pizzas to deliver on that Friday? GEORGE: The delivering of the pizzas started during the war after I had gone into the service. So by 1945 I'd say she started doing it regularly. WENDY: But as she began making the pizzas, you said that she would deliver them on Fridays but it must have been a process all week? Can you… GEORGE: No, no. WENDY: No? GEORGE: No, to make the pizza, you can make the dough couple hours ahead of time to get it raised, and then we'll start cooking them. Doesn't7 take long. Pizza's a quick item, actually, and it cooks in 15 minutes at the most. WENDY: So there wasn't a lot of preparation? NORMA: She got up early in the morning. GEORGE: On that day, yeah. WENDY: Preparing time. GEORGE: Because she did éclairs also, she'd make huge trays of éclairs. She used to make them with a custard filling, and people liked them. She'd been making those before. My mother was an excellent baker. She was very good at baking, and people knew it and they would call up and ask her to make éclairs. She wasn't a cookie person, you know. People think of Italians as cookie persons, but my mother was more cakes and éclairs, cream puffs. WENDY: Did she bring any of those recipes from the old country? GEORGE: No, I don't believe so, 'cause she came over as a -- as I say she was nine, ten years old depending on what part of the year she came over 'cause she was born on 1906 and she came over in 1916, so. WENDY: But her mother -- did she travel with her mother to this country? GEORGE: She came over with her mother. In fact, [pure witness of the game], she came over on the same trip. We have a picture of them in my daughter's house. My daughter's great aunt [unintelligible - 00:14:01] old family pictures, and she's got one on the wall there, my grandmother coming over with the girls. [Unintelligible - 00:14:10] four with my Ma on that picture? NORMA: Four of them at that time. GEORGE: See? That had to be quite a trip. Mother coming with four daughters. WENDY: Did you hear anything about the trip? GEORGE: My mother used to talk about it, yeah. They had a lot of trouble on that ship coming over. I think there was a murder. The ship had 8 been used when they came over to transport some beef, and all these people going back spat up and get rowdy and they had trouble amongst themselves, and there were submarines. It was not a pleasure cruise. So it was… I imagine it was a howling experience. WENDY: So she traveled here with her and mother and her sisters. GEORGE: Yeah, came directly to Fitchburg. WENDY: Did anyone else travel with them? GEORGE: Not to my knowledge. They came as a family unit, and that was it. WENDY: But you have an uncle or a brother. GEORGE: Well, my grandfather was already over here, and she had been over here before. WENDY: Your grandmother? GEORGE: Yeah. She had been over here before. My mother had never been here before. My grandmother had been here to visit my grandfather obviously; and same thing with my father, he came over with his father, though, and then his mother was supposed to come over with the sisters. So one of the sisters was [unintelligible - 00:15:47] and they had to wait 'til she got married, you know, before they could come over. And in the meantime, my grandfather on my father's side went back, but he left my father here with his brother down in Oakdale. And my father never saw his father again, actually, 'cause he didn't go back. WENDY: Okay. GEORGE: He was working on the railroad, the reservoir, one or the other. Because right there in Oakdale, we have a big sand area that they were using, and my uncle's farm was probably half a mile away to the woods, which I've traveled many times. So it wasn't too far to go to work, and he's kept working there, and then he'd go back to Italy. All these men in the old days used to leave home and go to 9 work, make some money and go back the other way. So they have made many trips. In fact, they have a watch. It's in the bank vault right now, but it was my grandfather's watch and it's 1885. So he had made trips over here previous of that trip. WENDY: Your grandfather was here and your father was here. GEORGE: Yeah, they stayed on the farm. WENDY: Okay, and how old was your father when he made the trip? GEORGE: He would be 12. WENDY: About 12. What part of Italy did they come from, your father? GEORGE: My father came from what you'd call Central Italy on the Adriatic side, and it is what they call them the Marque. And [unintelligible - 00:17:38] is the big city where he came from; they lived around the city. Then my mother came from up in Revine. That's not the one everybody thinks of. They always think of Ravena along Maine, this is only Revine, it's R-E-V-I-N-E, and it's way, way up in the mountains. The closest town you'd recognize would probably be Cortina. It was a mile away, up in the Dolomites. I was there, so. WENDY: Oh. GEORGE: I was there this past November. I've been there twice, actually. It's really out there, it's really out there. Oh yeah, one of the cousins. They're at Pieve di Cadore. We visit those places twice. I've been to my father's area once. We stayed there four days when I went to visit my uncles, you know. We took the children over one time to see the whole place. WENDY: When you say they're out there, what did you mean by that? GEORGE: You mean…? WENDY: You said the village with your uncle. GEORGE: Oh, it's really out there, way out in the boonies. It's really interesting. In fact, the village is practically dying, but now we went back this last time, this restaurant is building a huge 10 conference [sauna there]. So that might revive town. I think there was 60 to… like 60 children on the school system, so that tells you how the town was going down, down, down. But as I say, there's a hotel-restaurant that's building a -- 100 or 500 units they wanna build there. It's gonna be big. And you wonder how anybody's gonna get there, but they're gonna get there, you know. NORMA: I forgot to tell you that his mother lived in a castle. GEORGE: [Laughter] NORMA: They called it a castle, and it looks like a castle. GEORGE: But it's not really a castle, you know… NORMA: They called it's a castle, though. GEORGE: Yeah. That had to had been either some nobleman's home or a religious site at one time, but you still got the [slots] where they used to pick the gums on the arrow, so you know, it's interesting. WENDY: And they lived there just their family? GEORGE: That time it was just their family, yeah. But now, I think it's just their family again. But they have a system over in Italy that they sold parts of the houses. So… you own this section and you own that section and I own this section, but they bought the whole thing back now, so they own the whole thing. But [unintelligible - 00:20:24] of Pieve di Cadore, we three families that own parts of that house, it's almost like each one had own tenement; and we're not talking condos. These are old houses, and that's the way it was. WENDY: Do they all have a private bathroom? GEORGE: They have private bathrooms, but then there's a general bathroom on one floor that you can use. They're well-constructed houses, nice houses, and it's a nice area [unintelligible - 00:21:15] 'cause the air is clear as a bell, and… the scenery is magnificent. WENDY: Are there any tales about Ma leaving the village and going to the port city to come here?11 GEORGE: No, no. My mother didn't say too much about that. But once again, her family had been in the United States, aunts and uncles, what have you. They have been coming here since the 1800s at the Civil War. In fact, one part of the family had an open-air kitchen; they used to sell down in Pennsylvania down in the coal mine areas. But if you're familiar with the United States' history, the coalminers' staff had a lot of trouble unionizing and all that stuff, and things got very, very… bad. And fighting and things were going on, so they came back home. And they also had a catering business up in Pieve di Cadore. So they were hardworking people; they've been all over. My grandfather had been all over Europe and [unintelligible - 00:22:33] in Turkey as well as United States before he decided to settle here. WENDY: And why is it that they decided to… GEORGE: Well, it's like everybody else. They're looking for a good life and avoid turmoil. In Europe, there was always turmoil, or had always been, always building fortifications and things like that type of war, so they come over here. WENDY: And then specifically took the [unintelligible - 00:23:00]? GEORGE: Well, someone went to Fitchburg, maybe to work up in the quarry, because the Venetians, which my mother is, they're [unintelligible - 00:23:14] way up on top of the hill over towards the quarry. And that's where they lived, most of them. My grandfather lived down in the, what we call the patch area, but most of the Venetians didn't live there; they lived way up to what we call [unintelligible - 00:23:33]. And I don't know how many families there were about, but there weren't too many Venetians. They had their own club and everything; they tended to segregate just like all the Italians in -- you came from one section of Italy, you went to that club, you didn't go to any other clubs. Like in Leominster, there were six or seven Italian clubs. Can you imagine that? They 12 work, and all of those, I would say, work within a half-mile radius, seven clubs, six or seven clubs. WENDY: The club brings up an interesting question. Do people consider themselves Italian or do they consider themselves part of a particular region? GEORGE: I think when they talk amongst themselves, they were Veneziano, [unintelligible - 00:24:31], Sicilian or whatever. Of course the Sicilians tend to think of themselves as separate anyway. If you've ever been to Sicily, they don't call themselves Italians; they're Sicilians. But on Lancaster Street itself, there were one, two, three, four, five clubs within a quarter mile. We go from [unintelligible - 00:24:56], there were five clubs. And there was one on the back of [unintelligible - 00:25:01], I was a Saladini and then you had Colombo Hall on the [unintelligible - 00:25:06]. Can you imagine? What other nationality would do that? WENDY: Right. GEORGE: They did it, and Fitchburg -- or at least three, I think. That doesn't help you any, you know. In those days when you want them to do something, you need political power. You still do, and they were fragmented, you know. WENDY: Is there any attempt to unify? GEORGE: There was the Sons of Italy, but the Sons of Italy was never strong up in this area. In fact, even to this day it's basically a social club, I think, if anything. I think it exists, but that's what it is. They don't get that involved in politics, to my knowledge. But I don't know. WENDY: Why don't we talk about the particular club that your parents had joined? GEORGE: My father, even though we lived in Leominster, did not join one of the clubs in Leominster because he'd grown up in, you know, from 16 on or 17, he had lived in Fitchburg; so all his friends were up 13 there and he was one of the incorporators of the Marconi Club, [unintelligible - 00:26:23] founder of the club. And so he never left that club. And in fact I joined it for a while, but there was no call for me to go up to Fitchburg if I want to join the club, so I stayed there for two years. But I remember that club, they started up in, you know, room in a three-decker, and they move around, I guess to find the cheapest rent, and they finally decided to build the club that they had still in existence. They were hardworking people. I remember them working in the wintertime building that thing. And imagine, you'd get some man outside, [unintelligible - 00:27:09] out there, banging away on its soles and soils, trying to get the trench in so they could get the water. And [unintelligible - 00:27:19] was doing some of the brick masonry, and you know, lock in all that [unintelligible - 00:27:24] working away, donating their services for their club. WENDY: Why do you think they found it important to join? GEORGE: I think everybody has to belong to something, and that was their -- they're with a feeling they belong and they felt safe with these people. They grew up with them; a lot of them were childhood friends from the old country. It's like talking… well, if you went to the California and suddenly there's 10 Leominster people there, families, they'll just have to stick together. Especially in those days when language was a problem. WENDY: Do different regions of Italians have trouble talking to each other? GEORGE: It can happen. The language picks up certain sounds. For example, in the [uplands] who probably pick up a little of the French accent; and if you live up where my mother comes from, sometimes the words sound almost Germanic. I still maintain that when I sit there and listen to some of these people talk from that region, "strada" was almost like "strasa" at times, you know. And then if you go down to Sicily, I think the two regions are so far 14 apart that language is a part of the problem. They all had their own idiosyncrasies and what have you. See, in the United States, it isn't quite as bad, you know. We all understand each other. Some of those have their pronunciation, but it isn't that much different than the [unintelligible - 00:29:15], you know. WENDY: On Americanization classes, I realize that both of your parents came here at a young age, so they maybe learned in a public school. What about your grandparents? GEORGE: My grandparents, I'm not sure what they did. I think in those days, you could -- if my grandfather, which he must have done, gone to classes, I think you could get your whole family in under your citizenship. You didn't have to go yourself. The wife and children, I think, automatically could become citizens when you did. So, I'm sure when he was back in Italy, he'd be going to night school, because he was another person who loves to read. I still remember my grandfather reading all the time. He's like my father. The two men in my life were men who liked to read with an educating process on. My father still read the Italian newspaper almost 'til the day he died; and the only reason why he read it was so he wouldn't lose his language because there was no one to speak to anymore in Italian, a very few people. So he kept getting the Italian newspaper. WENDY: Now, is that something that the club perpetuated, with the Italian language? GEORGE: No, no. When I became a member of the club which was after the War of Ceylon, 1947, '48, a lot of the discussions were in English even though they're all old Italians, most of them. They all would speak in English at the meetings. Otherwise, the guys like myself who would be new members and young -- you know what happens to the young guy, he becomes the secretary. They were talking in 15 Italian, it wouldn't come out like so. They pretty well-learned how to speak English. The men did anyway. Some of the women… I won't say their station in life, but what they did, they didn't go anywhere in those days. You know, it's not like today; we all get in the car and take off. The women tended to stay home more. Now, the women do the driving half the time, so. But those days, women didn't go too far. WENDY: What kinds of things do they do at the club? GEORGE: Well, the men, if they went on their own, the Marconi Club was a little different. For a while they even had a [unintelligible - 00:32:06], but that didn't last too long because it's kinda noisy when they're busy playing cards. Most of the men would play a game they call three-seven, and they played for the beverages or candy bars or whatever you wanted. If you won the game, you either could have a glass of beer or candy bar or whatever. But big gambling games, I never witnessed any of them. They might have had some, but most of the men were there just for recreation; they weren't there to make a fortune. And actually, before I went to the service, there were a group of bakers. They would come in on Friday night at 11 o'clock, they're all done working for the weekend, and they started to bring in pizzas; they bring a tray of pizza, and they hand it out. After a while they began to smarten up, you know, but more and more people were coming, and now they bring two trays, three trays, so they start to sell the pizza. But I remember my father waiting for them to come in on a Friday night so we could have a slice of pizza, each of them. We'd take one home to my mother, maybe two slices probably 'cause my brother was old enough, so we have family pizza by the pan they were selling it, you know. And it became a big business up there. I think the Marconi Club kept 16 selling pizza, spaghetti, and cola very recently. It's quite a business. WENDY: Was the club open every day? GEORGE: The club used to open up generally at night because most of the days the men were working. But then later on the club opened up in the afternoon, and I don't know what it's doing now. I hadn't been there in many, many, many years. WENDY: So who would round the club? GEORGE: They would have the board of directors, so to speak; and then they would have a bartender, and then the treasurer acted like the steward. So that's how they ran it. And you had your monthly meetings, and the steward would get up and explain how much money came in, how much money went out, all that, you know. Every month was a big time financial statement. We got news of how little money came in or how much, it was always the important thing. WENDY: Were there dues? GEORGE: Yeah, we used to pay, I think $1 a month, and it was a… we'll get [in club] in that if you get sick, you would pay the sick benefit. It wasn't very much money, I mean, it could probably get $8, $10 a week, which was not big money, but it helped out with the fee, with the salaries were in those days. But if you were very, very careful, you just didn't get it for staying home. You had to be sick; and if you're sick, you get the benefit. 'Cause the sick committee was always checking, so it's quite a thing. You had to see it to believe it, because everybody want to take care of everybody but nobody wanted anybody checking what they were supposed to be doing, you know. So it's good, it was a nice club. Then they used to run some dances. Dances weren't too successful there for some reason, but they ran a few. In fact, and I played for 17 a couple of them with our sisters. Yeah, we talked about all-girl band [laughter]. NORMA: I can't believe I'm hearing those stuff. GEORGE: They were the originals. So that worked out. And one of the strange things was—I don't know if Anne remembers this—we even had Italian prisoners of war up there one time. Were you there? [Laughter] ANNE: [Unintelligible - 00:36:17] GEORGE: [Laughter] World War II. A lot of Italians were taken prisoner, so there are a lot of them down in Boston. And apparently Italian prisoners of war weren't considered dangerous, so on a Saturday night they would take them out or something and -- to different club and organizations. So we have a dance or something, they came up once or twice to my knowledge, and they circulated with the people, and they'll look at and then women talk to them because they see if they knew anybody from where they came from, you know, hope against hope, you know my family or something, you know. But down in Boston, they'd be there out all the time. In fact, some of them married Boston girls after the war. WENDY: Was there any marriage in here? GEORGE: Not to my knowledge, no. But down in Boston, there were. They used to have the fence and the girls would go over them and talk to them. In fact, I was just reading a book about the Italian prisoners of war down in Alabama and how friendly they became with the girls down there. They'd go up to work in the fields and what have you as prisoners of war. So everybody knew them. And I ran into one of them when I was in the army. I was going overseas in California, and the Italian prisoners of war were doing the cooking and I was with the KP to get that one out. When you stand there and you're cleaning out a soup tureen and the Italian isn't, you won the war. We're winning this war. And they used to say they 18 had, you know, an American soldier got this beer garden at the camp; they used to say the Italians and the wine garden—I don't know how true that was but that was one of the stories. That's when I was on camp Enza, guess that was outside of Riverside, California. But a lot of strange things in this world. WENDY: Let's get back to your childhood. You said that you grew up in a home that was half-American, half-Italian? GEORGE: Yeah. On a Wednesday night, you know, they say that's Italian spaghetti night, we might be having corned beef and cabbage. My father since he was alone used to eat in diners a lot, 'cause he lived in boarding houses 'til he get married. So he picked up all these habits of different food, and when he married my mother, my mother said, "What would you like to eat?" And he'd say, "I like those, I like that." So we used to eat a lot of those things, you know. WENDY: Now, how did she learn how to cook corned beef and cabbage? GEORGE: What? WENDY: How did she learn how to cook something like that? GEORGE: My mother was very clever when it came to cooking. She could make almost anything taste great. In fact, I used to go up to my mother's after I was married many, many years. We'd go up and have corned beef. I still like corned beef. So we just have all these -- lot of American food. We were not heavy on ravioli and things of that type 'cause my mother worked in the factory all the time, so those things took time to prepare. You gotta make the ravioli and things like that, you've got to… so we [unintelligible - 00:40:01] things like that, but not all the time. WENDY: But there must have been other differences besides the food. GEORGE: Well, we're only two boys in those days, so we traveled around a lot, and my father had a car, we always had a car. And most of the people stay pretty much in the neighborhood, so we would always 19 be going someplace. Like they had taken me to the World's Fair back in late '30s, things of that type. So we're going places. My father -- I still remember my father taking me to the library when I was -- my first trip to the library. When I took my daughter to the first trip to the library, things hadn't changed in the Leominster Library in those days, so we went there. It reminded me of when I went with my father. And they always let me read, you know. On those days, you weren't supposed to read comic books because they weren't good for you. My father let me read comic books, and that was very good because you picked up vocabulary. You learn a lot of vocabulary and you learn a lot of history. And so he constantly would buy me -- books were never a problem. WENDY: You said you went to the World's Fair. GEORGE: Yeah. WENDY: He drove to New York? GEORGE: We took the bus. WENDY: Okay. GEORGE: We took the bus. Of course that was quite an experience because, you know, the bus stops periodically for a rest stop and something to eat, so my brother and I thought it was the greatest thing ever because every time we stop, we get something to eat, you know, candy bars or something. I always had something. And we got to New York and we stayed at my aunt's. She was a nurse in New York, Mrs. Andriski, and she goes down in Oakdale actually, and she and her girlfriend who came from Fitchburg also were nurses. So they worked nights, so we were there and there was no [intrusion] upon them 'cause they weren't there anyway. And during the day we'd go to the fair. It's quite a thing. WENDY: World Fair in Italian Pavilion? GEORGE: Oh, yeah, we went to the Italian Pavilion. That was a one-week first stops, and then we went to the G Building and we did our 20 rounds. It was quite a thing. [Unintelligible - 00:42:35] obviously to see the Magna Carta, still remember that. And Crown Jewels. So it was interesting. My mother was -- I keep saying my father, but my mother was a real [unintelligible - 00:42:51] on this occasion. She made sure there was a Parent's Day; she made sure my father went because he would be working nights so he could go on the daytime. Those days, you'd want in the daytime for most of these things, so he would go. He'd be the only man on the room unless Mr. Anderson -- he was the only other man that'd be there. Usually all these Italian women are sitting there, listening, and there'd be my father and Mr. Anderson. At nighttime, it was a far from -- she'd be there. She'd always be there. School was important to her; and in fact, more important than my father. My father always believed that you could trade some things like that, and he was like trades can do the same thing for you that college can. But she was always, "You gotta go to school." WENDY: So there was never a question of you or your brother going to college. GEORGE: No. We'll always gonna go to school, that was a given. And make sure we got enough good grades to go [unintelligible - 00:44:07] hear about it when report card came. It worked out good. WENDY: So you never felt any influence to go into the restaurant business? GEORGE: No, no. They never tried to talk me into [unintelligible - 00:44:22] restaurant business. I have, when it comes to cooking and labor, I have two left hands, so it wouldn't work. Right, Norma? It would not work. NORMA: [Unintelligible - 00:44:37]. I couldn't tell. GEORGE: They used to put me out front. You're the maître d'. Get [unintelligible - 00:44:43] kitchen. It's dangerous. WENDY: Did you say that your mother was tri-lingual, or is that your grandmother?21 GEORGE: My mother. She would -- spoke French fluently, and she could speak Croatian French. WENDY: [Unintelligible - 00:45:00] she lived in the [unintelligible - 00:45:03] area? GEORGE: No, she lived down the patch, that's Italian. Italian and Sicilian. But when she worked in the factory as a little girl -- 'cause she was only 13 when she started, she started to pick up all these languages. All of that language -- as you well know; the younger you are on foreign languages, the better off you are. And she's being young like that, she paid attention, and she could talk French. WENDY: Did she ever try to teach you? GEORGE: Teach me French? No. Once I got into the… fourth, fifth grade, I think they decided that they might have made a mistake in not teaching us Italian. So they'd send me off to St. Anthony's for a couple of weeks in the summertime, and my mother got a whole set of Italian grammar books for kids, and she start to teach me some Italian. But by that time, it was too late. I did take Italian in high school, though. It was too late. I understood it and I could read it, but I couldn't speak it. WENDY: In the home, they always spoke English, too? GEORGE: No, they talk Italian when they didn't want us to understand, but they soon discovered that was a mistake, especially with me. They knew I could talk Italian, I could understand it. I wouldn't speak it, but -- in fact, my grandmother was very upset that they weren't teaching us to speak Italian when we were little kids, but I think my father wanted to make sure we were fluent in English, learn what would be our mother tongue, English, you know, and I was -- so that's what you had to do. WENDY: It's interesting that your grandmother felt differently. GEORGE: Yeah, yeah. WENDY: Can you remember any discussions or anything?22 GEORGE: No, I just… I know that she was upset that we didn't speak Italian. My grandfather didn't seem to bother at, all but he always talked English to me anyway so, you know, you'll never -- my grandmother would mix the two languages a lot but my grandfather was -- you'd think he came from America too. WENDY: Although she started working in a factory at 13? GEORGE: Thirteen. WENDY: [Unintelligible - 00:47:27] GEORGE: Had to be in Fitchburg, I don't know which factory. It was supposed to be 14, but she got in at 13. WENDY: She ever talked of those days? GEORGE: Not too much. The only thing she regretted was she had to leave school. She liked school, but… I don't know how many children were there, six or something like that in those days, and I guess times were tough. She was the last one they pulled out of school; she and her oldest sister did not go to school. From then on, my Aunt Toni who was next. She became a registered nurse and Ere, I think, went to business school; Doris didn't go to school beyond high school. Ellen got married, so she didn't go beyond high school; my Uncle became a dentist; and my other Uncle had a high position on industrial business down in Connecticut—he was a Holy Cross graduate. In fact, he and I graduated together… the same class. That was due to the war, yeah. WENDY: What year was that? GEORGE: '49. 1949. WENDY: [Unintelligible - 00:48:53] strongly about your education? GEORGE: I think she felt strongly because her home aren't going to school, my father not going to school. But those days, it was quite common. They didn't go to school. I still remember living on Longwood Avenue and boys becoming 16 or girls becoming 16, 23 that was beyond the school, get a job and they make $12 a week, something like that, if they went to work. WENDY: And you never felt that call to begin making money? GEORGE: No. Actually we were two boys. Most of the families had three, four, five kids, probably be a widow or a widower, you know. We lived well compared to a lot of them. So it never happened, you know. We had always had a small garden, we had chickens, we had some rabbits, and so it was always plenty of food; and my mother was an excellent person on canning. She could can almost anything. You'd talk about buying corn on the cob -- she didn't freeze it; she knew how to can it, corn on the cob. And it wouldn't be a lot of log. Remember that, Norma? She just had a lot of corn left over one time, hated to see it go to waste or fed to the chickens, so she just vacuum-packed it. That was good. She can do the same thing with -- I remember being in the service, I'd get a jar, and then it would be fried rabbit. Oh yeah, I like rabbit, I like rabbit. But she wouldn't waste anything, it was amazing. And she could sew, she make my trousers, shirts, and then my father bought her an ironing machine one time. I don't know if you remember those things, they used to call them a [mangle]. It's a circular item, and she had it, and my father bought an old electric sewing machine, and the man came to look at it and show how to run those sewing machine, they saw that and they [unintelligible - 00:51:23] "What can you do with that?" She says, "They can iron shirts," everything. I see her do something, so she'd get all this things and says, "I'll give you a job on Saturdays to demonstrate these ironing machines at Sears and Roebuck." So for a year or two, that's what she did. Every Saturday afternoon she'd go up there, take all our laundry, and iron it to people. She's a very clever woman, my mother. WENDY: So did she work while you were in school?24 GEORGE: When I came back from the service, she didn't work anymore in the factory, because now I had a sister and then a child after I came back, our second sister. We're two families; we got two younger sisters and my brother and I. I'm 20 years older than my younger sister, almost to the day. She's December what, Norma? Fifth? NORMA: December 2nd. GEORGE: Second, she's the 2nd and I'm 15th. 20 years difference. WENDY: Is she working prior to the… GEORGE: Yeah, she always worked in the factory. My mother always work. My mother couldn't sit still. She had to work all the time. My wife is like her; she can't sit down. WENDY: I'm always in awe of everything these people were able to get done, but they'd still work. It's amazing. GEORGE: She would can all of it. We had canned blueberries, canned raspberries, strawberries, all kinds of tomatoes, jelly. She used to make [unintelligible - 00:53:02] school when they used have what they used to call hospital days, and you would bring canned goods and things like that. And my mother gave me some apple jelly to bring, and the teacher looked at it and looked out to the window, it was clear as a bell. She went down and got another teacher, "Come over here, I wanna show you something." She's still [unintelligible - 00:53:22] she hold it and, "Look at that." WENDY: Without machine? GEORGE: Without machines. Norma could tell you stories about my mother. She knew my mother all her life, so… very clever. Her mother was an excellent cook, and mother was a real cook. WENDY: You wanna talk? You wanna say anything? NORMA: She looked tremendous, she knew everything and she could do anything. Anything you ask her do, she could do it. WENDY: How could she do all these work, working during the day? Was it weekends, or after…?25 GEORGE: When she came home at night. My father would start to prepare some of the things for her, you know, then he'd go to work and she'd come home and… and since he wasn't home, you know, he's at work and then were just two boys, so she'd get working on something, keep busy, and that was it. WENDY: So when you were [unintelligible - 00:54:17] passed away? GEORGE: No, my father died around, what, 86, Norma? NORMA: 80 when he died. GEORGE: He was 80 when he died. So, around 80, about 1984 when he died. Or no? NORMA: No, [unintelligible - 00:54:43]? WENDY: Okay. Maybe I just assumed, but you said there were two families. But I think what you said was you're… GEORGE: Oh, I'm different. WENDY: Okay. GEORGE: There was a girl who died in between, and she always wanted a daughter, so then they had the girl. Then they figured she's growing up alone, so they had a second one. WENDY: She wasn't busy enough? GEORGE: No, no, no. By the time the girls came, my brother and I were fairly grown up. I was 16, so I can help out with the little girl and keep her busy and things. And then when I went to service, my brother was old enough to help out. Like he'd deliver a lot of the stuff. He wasn't in school, so, you know, he was -- it's quite a thing. WENDY: So let's go back to the restaurant business. So after she became successful with these pizzas, can you fill in the blanks? They aren't, for example -- I get the impression that they had always thought they would open up a restaurant when these pizzas became popular.26 GEORGE: Yeah. My mother was really strong, and my father was conservative, you know. He had reached the point that DuPont were, you know, your job is secured for life now and do we really wanna get involved in this when they had two little children. And my mother kept insisting, so they get the building. We bought the land in the back there because my father want the [unintelligible - 00:56:28] to go to work. Those were on empty lots that DuPont owned then. The DuPont was selling all the lots they had, and the buildings. Because in the old days, the factory used to buy up a lot of land and houses, and then the people would then rent them from them. Well after the war—just prior to the war, rather—they started to sell some of the stuff up during the Depression. And there was this one lot sitting there which was directly in back of ours, so my father was able to buy it for a very ridiculously low price in those days, and just cut a hole in our fence and we had an entry to the Lancaster Street. And we put a little garden there, and… since the lot was there and the expense of buying land was no longer a problem, we'd put the building up. And as I say, it was not a huge building. I got a picture of this some place, the original building. So they started, and the business was so successful. It was so successful I think within six months they had to add to the back part of it for kitchen expansion. And then a year or two later, they added to the dining room section; they doubled that up in size. Then later they put an entrance on the side to get down into the basement area. We were there 10 years, that's all. By that time, everybody is getting tired; 'cause in a family business, everybody's gotta work. WENDY: So when did she expand the menu? Was that immediately? GEORGE: Immediately. We had a full menu right away. She didn't do just the pizza. She wanted a restaurant. And so we had all the different 27 types of spaghettis and manicottis and all that stuff. It was an Italian restaurant. WENDY: So you said she really didn't cook ravioli or manicotti at home? GEORGE: No. WENDY: So she determined… GEORGE: But she was an excellent cook. A successful restaurant is one that -- where there is no waste. So if you make something and it's not going to sell, you get two choices: you've got to find a way to use it or throw it away. My mother was so clever. We used to have veal, for example, and there'll be little pieces left over when they churn the cutlets from the bone, just little pieces, and what are you gonna do with it? So it's still on the menu, veal casserole. [Unintelligible - 00:59:24] wine and [unintelligible - 00:59:25], and all of a sudden something that was waste is a big seller. In fact, if I were to go to one of the restaurants now, that's what I would have. WENDY: Historically, I hear of something. I hope that hasn't been happening a lot in time. It's just suddenly, but suddenly [unintelligible - 00:59:47]. Okay. Thank you. So were these all her recipes that she used? GEORGE: Yeah. WENDY: Was she the only cook? GEORGE: She was always the lead cook. She had help, but she still made the determinations of what would go in and what wouldn't. Norma would work with her, and if my mother wasn't there and then Norma would be the lead cook. But it's always family. WENDY: How many [unintelligible - 01:00:21] was it open? GEORGE: Six. We had long hours in those days, not like today where the restaurant opens for six, eight hours. Those days it opened at 12 noon, it closed at 12 midnight. 28 WENDY: Incredible. [Unintelligible - 01:00:39] dad worked at the restaurant? GEORGE: My father would work there during the day, and then he would go to work at 4 o'clock at DuPont, then he gave that up once he got the -- after he got his 25-year pin, he left and stayed just at the restaurant. WENDY: And you said you and your brother also worked there? GEORGE: Yeah, we worked there. My brother was a good cook too. He's the one that can do many things. He takes after my mother on that respect. He can cook and he can do electrical work and do tile work. You name it, he can do it. WENDY: And what is his name? GEORGE: Attilo. WENDY: Attilo. Is he called [unintelligible - 01:01:28] GEORGE: Oh, Tony. WENDY: So can you tell us a little bit about what it was like working in a restaurant? NORMA: It was hectic. I have a little girl with me and she used to stay with me while I waitressed and worked in the kitchen. [Unintelligible - 01:01:43] my daughter, and then when the [unintelligible - 01:01:45] stay with me too and he'd hold on behind me while I was waitressing… with his finger, he used to -- he know how to play [unintelligible - 01:01:54] jukebox. He'd know every song that was there. And he used to dance, and army people used to come in and just watch him. And we really wanted him to be something, but [unintelligible - 01:02:08]. GEORGE: Wow. I didn't want… NORMA: He was good. He's staying and he danced, and he was about three or four years old when he was doing this. GEORGE: Younger than that when he started.29 NORMA: When he started. But somebody signed him somewhere, but I'm not [unintelligible - 01:02:23]. No? GEORGE: No. NORMA: No, he stopped her after that. And he was [unintelligible - 01:02:29]. Soldiers used to come just to see him. GEORGE: Yeah, with them [unintelligible - 01:02:35] big in those days and they -- we had a lot of army trade, and they'd come up and they look to him and give him a quarter, so he'd play five songs and … NORMA: And he knew every song there was, too. WENDY: So how did he learn to sing? [Unintelligible - 01:02:52] GEORGE: Just listening. We'd have a stack of records like that, 'cause we had a jukebox, people would come around and they changed them, and they'd give him a bunch of them, you know. And he'd pick one up and he was four years old and maybe at best pick the record up and say, "What's this one, Georgie?" "It's a concerto." WENDY: Wow. GEORGE: [Unintelligible - 01:03:20] concerto. He couldn't read. It was scary. That's why he could do it though, unbelievable. WENDY: Do you think your mother enjoyed the restaurant? GEORGE: Oh, she loved it. She loved it. She didn't wanna get out of it; but everybody was tired, everybody was tired. We reached a point that you don't wanna do it anymore, so we got out. But then they went back in again, and… WENDY: What year do you think that was? GEORGE: I think it was 1958, about 1958 they got out. Then by '62, something like that, they went back in again. When they get through, they went cross country with my two sisters. I think they went for about six weeks; they made this trip down to Mexico all around the United States and back to Leominster. And again, went back to Italy, you know. They wanna see America first. He liked the United States. He was always… he'd be what you call a 30 patriot. He was in the National Guard; he always loved to talk about his being in the National Guard, you know. He loved the United States. He went back when his sisters became ill, and after that he made several trips to Italy. WENDY: 1958, and they were back into it by '62? GEORGE: '62 or '63, they went back in. WENDY: So what happened? They got some left and… GEORGE: And my mother was ready to again. But they didn't stay that many years after that because [unintelligible - 01:05:10] going to sixties now. And my brother and I were not really that interested in doing it. In fact, I'd worked Friday night and he'd work Saturday night. And all I did was… I was the maître d', so I wasn't doing much of anything. But she wanted us there, my brother and I, and he was on Saturday and I was Friday nights. WENDY: Did you work there too? ANNA: I only worked there about a year and a half. WENDY: With the Il Camino? GEORGE: Yeah. WENDY: Can you tell me about the history of it? For example, did she purchase the restaurant from someone else? GEORGE: No. She wanted to go back in business, and so she had my brother start looking for land; and that's pretty much what he does, a lot of titles—he's a title man. And he found this piece of land that was just sitting there and was surrounded by, I think, the land owned by [Blocks] Incorporated, but there was one watch just sitting there. And so they bought it, and they started off with the original building. And this restaurant was not quite like the Lazy A; it was more of an -- I won't say it's upscale, but it was basically a restaurant, not a pizza combination. Times have changed and the pizza was no longer the big thing for a restaurant, we thought, and so they built this restaurant with the idea of [unintelligible -31 01:06:48]. And it took off right away. In fact, it's about so fast that they had to add a little room in front. They had to -- was it two rooms, Norma? NORMA: Two. GEORGE: Yeah, put two rooms in the front. One was a lounge and the other one was another restaurant, dining area. And then they added in the back so the place, just kept growing; but as I say, as a full restaurant, delay gets even more intense than a… I was not going stay that much more, and my brother as I say, was -- his practice was starting to pick up, so. And the girls were too young. Well, Jeannie was in college and Margaret was at the restaurant, but she had got married, so. WENDY: Mother is still doing most of the cooking at the time? GEORGE: All 'til the last day, 'til the last day. She loved it. Her mother was the same way. When they had their restaurant, I think they were happiest when they were in the kitchens. Wouldn't you say, Norma? NORMA: Oh, yeah. She loved to cook. [Unintelligible - 01:07:59] and my mother did all the cooking. WENDY: That's a good trainer. Was there a push for education for your sisters? GEORGE: Yes. Margaret went to Rivier for one semester. She did not like college, and she came back and went to work with my mother; and she married and had three children. She's a widow now. And my sister Jeanie went to -- up in -- what is it? NORMA: Merrimack. GEORGE: Merrimack, Merrimack College. And she [unintelligible - 01:08:39] she has a good job. She's been there for many, many years. In fact, starting next year she can even retire. When you're 55, you can do that nowadays. And she's the boss; she has no children. But she takes after us, and that she's a reader too. She 32 loves to read, read, read, read. In fact, she just came back from China with my sister Margaret. They both went and Margaret said -- Norma asked her, she's too much talking, so the first two days, she didn't said anything, she just read. [Laughter] WENDY: [Laughter] So tell us a little bit about your schooling. I know you're a graduate of Holy Cross? GEORGE: Yeah. WENDY: Prior to that? GEORGE: I went to Leominster High School and graduated in '44. I started college in July because it was wartime, and I figured I could get some time in before I went to the service. It would also guarantee me a place when I came back. So I finished my freshman year in February of '45, and I was in the army in March of '45. I came back and went back to school, and I've taken some extra courses, somewhere by accident, and so I found out if I went to summer school I wouldn't have to do my second semester junior year, and I graduated in '49 instead of '50. Then I went to [unintelligible - 01:10:24] and I stayed up there for a few months teaching elementary school, but I didn't like it. And so I came back to Leominster in 1952; I was in the Leominster school system. I became a principal of junior high school. I was the first Italian secondary principal. Christine McDowell was the first elementary one; her name was [unintelligible - 01:10:52]. She was the first, I believe, elementary school principal of Italian descent. WENDY: But you were the first secondary? GEORGE: Yeah, and I became the high school principal, and I was the first one there full-time. Dr. [Anthony] did it temporarily while they found a principal. And then I succeeded the man that they had found, [unintelligible - 01:11:20] two and a half came in. And he was not the first curriculum coordinator of Italian decent, Robert 33 Duppal would come to Leominster and worked for a couple of years, but Robert Anthony, Dr. Anthony, he became the first assistant superintendent of curriculum. He was a native son also. And Dr. Amadeo became the first Italian superintendent in Leominster. But after I became junior high school principal, a whole wave of Italian descent children of Leominster became elementary school principals. Salvatalis and Negliosis and Sardeli, Bacani, they all came in after. And then Chino Salvatori became a junior high school principal. There was a whole wave of us, but that's the way of America anyway. If you've studied history, whatever wave comes, through they take those jobs and their children will want different types of jobs. Just like the old story of the Irish cop, they had their wave and they moved on, their children did not become policemen, they took better jobs. And same thing with the Italians, they moved up, [unintelligible - 01:02:46] loaded with doctors and lawyers and everything now are of Italian descent. WENDY: Did you ever considered going anywhere else to teach? GEORGE: I had taught as I say in [unintelligible - 01:12:58] for a short time, but I didn't like elementary. So I came back to Leominster and waited for a slot opened. And as I say, did that until 1988, and when I was 62 and I retired. But I went down at St. Andrews, and I did the five-year short-term—it was supposed to be shot-term, but it was five years before I left as elementary school principal down there. So I taught everything from pre-K to high school. WENDY: And how did you meet Norma? GEORGE: I've known Norma all my life. NORMA: His father and my father lived in a duplex house in Italy. And my mother and his father used to go to school, elementary school in Italy with each other, and we were friends… GEORGE: Yeah. I've known her from day one.34 WENDY: Wow. Did anyone suggest that you get married? NORMA: No. WENDY: No. NORMA: I asked him to go to my high school prom, but he had to go into service so that was the end of that. But while he was in the service he used to write to me, and when he got home, started going together, and that was it. GEORGE: Fifty-three years later. WENDY: Fifty-three [unintelligible - 01:14:20] and 54 in February? GEORGE: Yeah, it'll be 54 years in February. WENDY: I have a friend who's talking to her the other day, and she said that a lot of marriage nowadays is anything over seven years. GEORGE: My daughter was 25 last week. Twenty-five years of marriage. WENDY: So the parents feel when you came to Leominster to teach? GEORGE: Oh, they were happy 'cause I was gonna stay. Nobody wants their children to move, you know that. So they're happy that I got a job in Leominster. WENDY: But it wasn't just a job. You became a teacher. GEORGE: But I never left the community, [laughter] actually. I mean, when I went to Holy Cross, I was a base student. I didn't live there. And they always knew I was gonna be a teacher 'cause I always said I was gonna be a teacher. That was always… I'd made up my mind. By the time I'm in seventh grade, I knew I want to be a schoolteacher, so that was it. So there was no big surprise, and they accepted it. I don't know if they wanted me to be a lawyer or something else. My brother became a lawyer but I didn't, I just wanted to be a schoolteacher. I was happy. I used to be a very happy schoolteacher. WENDY: What made you become a… GEORGE: Combination of things. Like my wife said, "Before you take the job, are you sure you wanna be one? Don't do it for the money." 35 And I said, "No, I won't do it for the money." But the money was good compared to teaching, and it was a new challenge. But if I didn't become a principal, I'd have been happy anyway. Like my wife said, I always used to sing going to school in the morning, so I was happy. I had a happy life. I was also the audio-visual director, so I had a couple periods off every day to do that. So it was a combination that you didn't get bored, you know, you taught your classes and then you went into these audio-visual materials. And I always kept busy and never had any big problems with children, so that's fine. In fact, I still run into students who remember our days in class and the punishments, which are big jokes, you know, and it was fun. And even when I was looking for better jobs, I'd go to the school boards; some of them were my pupils, and they would joke with me what we used to do in class and all. I actually get people coming up—Norma can tell you that—they still come up and say, "Remember when…" NORMA: [Unintelligible - 01:17:23] write papers, that's what I always hear. WENDY: Write papers. What subject did you teach? GEORGE: I was a Social Studies teacher. I had taught a little bit of English in junior high when I was a long-term sub there, but basically a Social Studies teacher. I teach world history and geography and economics, current events, government, depending upon what they needed in that particular year. I always used to like to teach three subjects. I didn't like teaching one subject all day, so I teach three. And every year I get a new set of textbooks so I wouldn't bog down, repeating the same things all the time. This year I'd get a new history book and next year I'd get a new geography book, the next year I'd get a new economics book or government book. So it's always something different, and it was a lot of fun.36 WENDY: How did you see education change from the time that you were at Leominster High School? GEORGE: Well, of course, there's more technology involved now, but they haven't changed that much, you know. They're not as reluctant to speak as they were in the old days, but you can still control them, you can still -- they still can be reasonable. They have to know why more now than they did in the old days. For example, I would punish children as a principal, then I would say, "What did you do? Did you egg the teacher on?" And most of them would say, "Yeah." So, "Then what do you want me to do about it? [Unintelligible - 01:19:13] punishment coming?" But he said this, "Did you egg him on?" "Yeah, I did." "I'll speak to him, but I also have to punish you too because you egged him on." And he was, "Okay." That's that. They wanna be treated fairly. The old days, you know, they're the boss and we're not. But today, you let them know the ground rules and it works out pretty well. At least I think it that. I haven't taught for a few years now, but when I was at the end of my career, they would come in and see me and they'd sit and talk. And I always had a jar of candy, you know./AT/jf/rs/es

ABSTRAK Penelitian ini bertujuan untuk menguji dan menganalisis Pengaruh Iklan Di Sosial Media, Persepsi Kualitas, EWOM dan Variasi Produk pada Minat Beli Ulang Produk Janji Jiwa Pada Followers Instagram Janji Jiwa Di Kota Pontianak. Bentuk dari penelitian ini adalah penelitian Asosialtif Kausal. Populasinya ialah seluruh followers Instagram janji jiwa di kota Pontianak. Sampel yang diambil pada penelitian ini berjumlah 100 orang dengan Teknik penarikan sampel menggunakan purposive sampling. Data diambil melalui metode kuesioner dengan menggunakan skala likert. Teknik analisis yang digunakan adalah analisis regresi linear berganda. Berdasarkan hasil penelitian menunjukkan bahwa iklan di sosial media dan variasi produk berpengaruh positif dan signifikan terhadap minat beli ulang. Sedangkan, persepsi kualitas dan EWOM berpengaruh positif namun tidak signifikan terhadap minat beli ulang.Kata Kunci: iklan di sosial media, persepsi kualitas, EWOM, variasi produk, dan minat beli ulang. 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Pengaruh Iklan Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang Dengan Persepsi Konsumen Sebagai Variable Intervening Pada Café Coffee Time And Seafood Mermatasiantar. Jurnal Manajemen Program Studi Manajemen STIE Sulta Agung Vol.5- No.2, Desember 2019(Hlm 48-60) Prayitno, D (2014). Spss 22 Pengolah Data Terpraktis. Yogyakarta: Andi Raharjo, S (2013). Belajar Praktek Analisis Multivariate Dengan Spss. Klaten: E-Book Di Download Dari Http://Www.Konsistensi.Com Rainy Adila, Widayanto (2019). Pengaruh Keragaman Produk Dan E-Service Quality Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang Melalui Kepuasan Konsumen (Studi Pada Mahasiswa Universitas Diponegoro Pelanggan Zalora). Diponegoro Journal Of Social And Politic Tahun 2019 Rambitan Pratiwi A (2018). Pengaruh Iklan Bukalapak Pada Situs Youtube Dan Gaya Hidup Di Era Digital Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang Di Toko Online Bukalapak: Fakultar Ekonomi Universitas Sanata Dharma Yogyakarta 2018 Samuel Hatane, Lianto Adi S (2014). Analisis eWOM, Brand Image, Brand Trust dan Minat Beli Produk Smartphone di Surabaya: Jurnal Manajemen Pemasaran. Vol. 8. No. 2, Oktober 2014 Satria Arief Adi (2017) Pengaruh Harga, Promosi, dan Kualitas Produk terhadap Minat Beli Konsumen pada Perusahaan A-36. Jurnal Manajemen dan Start-Up Bisnis, Vol. 2 No. 1, April 2017 Sugiyono (2016). Metode Penelitian Pendekatan Kuantitatif, Kualitatif, dan R&D. Bandung: Alfabeta Sundalangi Marchelyno, Mandey Silvya L, Jorie Rotinsulu J (2014). Kualitas Produk, Daya Tarik Iklan, dan Potongan Harga terhadap Minat Beli Konsumen pada Pizza Hut Manado: Jurnal EMBA. Vol. 2. No. 1, 2014 Utomo Galih Wahyu ( 2015 ) Pengaruh Iklan dan Potongan Harga Terhadap Citra Toko dan Dampaknya terhadap Niat Beli Konsumen Produk Smartfren Andromax di Surabaya. Sekolah Tinggi Ilmu Perbanas. Surabaya Whidya Utami, Christina (2006). Manajemen Ritel: Strategi Dan Implementasi Ritel Modern. Selemba Empat, Jakarta Widyatama, Rendra (2005). Pengantar periklanan. Jakarta: Buana Pustaka Indonesia Willy, Nurjannah Siti (2019). Pengaruh Kemasan Produk dan Rasa terhadap Minat Beli yang berdampak pada Keputusan Pembelian Pelanggan Minuman Energi. Jurnal Ilmu Manajemen. Vol. 9. No. 2 Juni 2019 Yaqian Zhou (2011). The Impact Of Customer-Based Brand Equity On Revisit Intentions: An Empirical Study Of Business And Leisure Travelers At Five Shanghai Budget Hotels. AU-GSB Ejournal (Online) Vol. 4. No. 1 Pp. 168-181 Yaziq (2008). Pemasaran Jasa: Konsep Dan Implementasi. Yogyakarta. Ekonisia Yuliana (2015). Pengaruh Variasi Produk dan Display Layout terhadap Minat Beli Konsumen Muslim di Toko Bandeng Juwana Erlina Semarang. Universitas Islam Negeri Walisongo. Semarang Yuwomo Hendro, Yuwana Syamswana (2017). Pengaruh Pelayanan dan Keragaman Produk terhadap Kepuasan Konsumeen pada Toko King di Malang: Jurnal Ekonomi Manajemen. Vol. 02. No. 1, Mei 2017 Zeithaml, V. A. dan Mario Jo Bitner (1996). Service Marketing. McGraw-Hill Companies Inc., New York.

ABSTRACTThis study aims to test and analyze the Influence of Advertising On Social Media, Quality Perception, EWOM and Product Variations on The Interest of Buying Back Soul Promise Products On Instagram Followers Of Soul Promise In Pontianak City. The form of this research is Tysal Asocialive research. The population is the entire Instagram followers of the promise of soul in pontianak city. The samples taken in this study amounted to 100 people with sample withdrawal techniques using purposive sampling. The data was taken through a questionnaire method using a likert scale. The analytical technique used is multiple linear regression analysis. Based on the results showed that advertising on social media and product variations have a positive and significant effect on re-purchase interest. Meanwhile, the perception of quality and EWOM has a positive but insignificant effect on re-purchase interest. Keywords: advertising on social media, quality perception, EWOM, product variations, and resending interest. Daftar Pustaka Alkatiri Suhailah, Tumbel Altje L, Roring ferdy (2017). Pengaruh daya Tarik Iklan dan potongan Harga terhadap Minat beli Konsumen pada Matahari Departement store Manado Town Square: Jurnal EMBA. Vol. 5. No. 2, Juni 2017 Andita Astrid C (2017). Pengaruh Iklan, Harga, Dan Kualitas Produk Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang Konsumen: Fakultas Ekonomi Universitas Sanata Dharma Yogyakarta 2017 Andriadi Akmal, Untarini Nindria (2013). Pengaruh Persepsi Kualitas Layanan Dan Citra Merek Telkom Flexi Terhadap Niat Beli Ulang: Jurnal Ilmu Manajemen. Volume 1 Nomor 2 Maret 2013 Anggraeni Jenni, Paramita Patricia D, Warso M M (2016). Pengaruh Keanekaragaman Produk, Kualitas Pelayanan dan Store Atmosphere terhadap Impulse Buying di Butik Cassanova Semarang: Journal of Management. Vol. 2. No. 2, Maret 2016 Anoraga, Pandji (2000). Manajemen Bisnis. Jakarta: PT. Rineka Cipta Arfimasri, Yulhan (2016). Pengaruh Keragaman Menu dan Persepsi Harga terhadap Minat Beli Konsumen pada Rumah Makan Aut Duri Sumani Kecamatan X Koto Singkarak Kabupaten Solok Sumbar: Jurnal Sosial dan Ilmu Ekonomi. Vol. IV. No. 01, 2019 Arif M. Erfan (2019). The Influence Of Electronic Word Of Mouth (Ewom), Brand Image, And Price On Re-Purchase Intention Of Airline Customers: Journal of Applied Management (JAM). Volume 17 Number 2, June 2019 Ariffin Shahira, Yusof Jamaliah Mohd, Putit Lennora, Shah Mohd Izwan Azalan (2016). Factors Influencing Perceived Quality and Repurchase Intention Towards Green Products: Faculty of Business Management, Universiti Teknologi MARA. Procedia Economics And Finance 37, 2016 Ariyani Efi D (2011). Pengaruh Keragaman Produk dan Pelayanan terhadap Citra Perusahaan pada Swalayan Aneka Jaya Boja: Fakultas Ekonomi Universitas Negeri Semarang Assauri Sofjan, S.E., M.B.A (2011). Manajemen Pemasaran: Ed.11 Basu Swasta&Sukotjo (2000). Manajemen Pemasaran Modern. Yogyakarta: Liberty Basu Swasta&T. Hani Handoko (2016). Manajemen Pemasaran Analisis Perilaku Konsumen. Edisi Pertama. BPFE, Yogyakarta Cahyono, F. D, Kusumawati. A, Kumadji. S (2016). Analisis Faktor- Faktor Pembentuk Electronic Word of Mouth (EWOM) dan Pengaruhnya terhadap Minat Beli: Jurnal Administrasi Bisnis (JAB). Vol. 37. No. 1, 2016Cravens D.W & Piercy N.F (2013). Strategic Marketing, 10th Edition. Singapore: McGrow-Hill Companies,Inc Fandy Tjiptono (2005). Strategi Pemasaran. Andi Offset. Yogyakarta Faradinah Isti, H Budi Leonardo, Minarsih Maria M (2016). Analisis Pengaruh Variasi Produk, Fasilitas, Dan Kualitas Pelayanan Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang Konsumen Pada Indonesian Coffeeshop Semarang (Icos Café): Journal Of Management. Volume 2 No.2 Maret 2016 Ghozali, I (2013). Aplikasi Analisis Multivariate Dengan Pogram IBM SPSS 21. Semarang: Badan Penerbit Universitas Diponegoro Indika Deru. R, Jovita Cindy (2017). Media Sosial Instagram sebagai Sarana Promosi untuk Meningkatkan Minat Beli Konsumen: Jurnal Bisnis Terapan. Vol. 1. No. 1, Juni 2017 Indriyo Gitosudarmo, M.Com. (Hons). (2014). Manajemen Pemasaran: Ed.2 Jalilvand Mohammad Reza, Samiei Neda ( 2012). The Effect of Electronic word Of Mouth on Brand Image and Puchase Intention An Empirical Study in the Automobile Industry in Iran: Marketing Intelligence & Planning. Vol. 30. No. 4, 2012 Kartika Eric Kusnadi (2014). Pengaruh Bauran Pemasaran Terhadap Niat Beli Ulang Sepeda Motor Honda Kategori Sport Mid: E-Journal Graduate Unpar Part A : Economics. Vol. 1, No. 2, 2014 Keller, Kevin Lane. 2003. Strategic Brand Management, Building, Measuring, and managing Brand Equity. New Jersey: Prentice Hall. Kotler. P & Armstrong, G. (2012). Prinsip-prinsip pemasaran: (Ed 13). Jilid 1. Jakarta : Erlangga. Kotler.P & Keller K.L. (2018). Manajemen Pemasaran: (Ed 13). Jilid 1. Jakarta : Erlangga Kesumawati Nila, M.Si, Allen Marga Retta, M.Si, Novita Sari, M.Pd. ( 2017). Pengantar Statistika Penelitian: Ed.1 Kusumanegara Erlangga Tahta (2012). Analisis Pengaruh Harga, Keragaman Produk, dan Kualitas Pelayanan terhadap Kepuasan Konsumen dalam Melakukan Pembelian di Baskin Robbins Ice Cream Mall Ciputra Semarang: Fakultas Ekonomi dan Bisnis Universitas Diponegoro Semarang Matute Jorge (2016). The influence of EWOM characteristics on online repurchase intention Mediating roles of trust and perceived usefulness: Online Information Review. Vol. 40 No. 7, 2016 Ningsih Evi Septia (2017). Analisis Pengaruh Persepsi Harga Dan Persepsi Kualitas Produk Terhadap Minat Beli Baju Eceran Di Solo Square: Program Studi Manajemen Fakultas Ekonomi Dan Bisnis Universitas Muhammadiyah Surakarta 2017 Priyatno (2014). SPSS 22 Pengolahan Data Terpraktis. Yogyakarta: ANDI Purborini, Ayu&Wibisono, Totok (2012). Analisis Pengaruh Kualitas Produk, Daya Tarik Iklan, Dan Persepsi Harga Terhadap Keputusan Pembelian Kosnumen Pada Produk Motor Yamaha Mio (Studi Kasus Pada Mahasiswa Di Universitas Semarang). Jurnal Q-Man, Vol.2,(No.2) Puspitasari Diana (2006). Analisis Pengaruh Persepsi Kualitas dan Kepuasan Pelanggan Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang (Studi Kasus Pada Maskapai Penerbangan Garuda Keberangkatan Semarang): Program Studi Magister Manajemen Program Pasca Sarjana Universitas Diponegoro Semarang 2006 Prawira M. Yudha, Butarbutar M, Sherly & Nainggolan Lora E (2019). Pengaruh Iklan Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang Dengan Persepsi Konsumen Sebagai Variable Intervening Pada Café Coffee Time And Seafood Mermatasiantar. Jurnal Manajemen Program Studi Manajemen STIE Sulta Agung Vol.5- No.2, Desember 2019(Hlm 48-60) Prayitno, D (2014). Spss 22 Pengolah Data Terpraktis. Yogyakarta: Andi Raharjo, S (2013). Belajar Praktek Analisis Multivariate Dengan Spss. Klaten: E-Book Di Download Dari Http://Www.Konsistensi.Com Rainy Adila, Widayanto (2019). Pengaruh Keragaman Produk Dan E-Service Quality Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang Melalui Kepuasan Konsumen (Studi Pada Mahasiswa Universitas Diponegoro Pelanggan Zalora). Diponegoro Journal Of Social And Politic Tahun 2019 Rambitan Pratiwi A (2018). Pengaruh Iklan Bukalapak Pada Situs Youtube Dan Gaya Hidup Di Era Digital Terhadap Minat Beli Ulang Di Toko Online Bukalapak: Fakultar Ekonomi Universitas Sanata Dharma Yogyakarta 2018 Samuel Hatane, Lianto Adi S (2014). Analisis eWOM, Brand Image, Brand Trust dan Minat Beli Produk Smartphone di Surabaya: Jurnal Manajemen Pemasaran. Vol. 8. No. 2, Oktober 2014 Satria Arief Adi (2017) Pengaruh Harga, Promosi, dan Kualitas Produk terhadap Minat Beli Konsumen pada Perusahaan A-36. Jurnal Manajemen dan Start-Up Bisnis, Vol. 2 No. 1, April 2017 Sugiyono (2016). Metode Penelitian Pendekatan Kuantitatif, Kualitatif, dan R&D. Bandung: Alfabeta Sundalangi Marchelyno, Mandey Silvya L, Jorie Rotinsulu J (2014). Kualitas Produk, Daya Tarik Iklan, dan Potongan Harga terhadap Minat Beli Konsumen pada Pizza Hut Manado: Jurnal EMBA. Vol. 2. No. 1, 2014 Utomo Galih Wahyu ( 2015 ) Pengaruh Iklan dan Potongan Harga Terhadap Citra Toko dan Dampaknya terhadap Niat Beli Konsumen Produk Smartfren Andromax di Surabaya. Sekolah Tinggi Ilmu Perbanas. Surabaya Whidya Utami, Christina (2006). Manajemen Ritel: Strategi Dan Implementasi Ritel Modern. Selemba Empat, Jakarta Widyatama, Rendra (2005). Pengantar periklanan. Jakarta: Buana Pustaka Indonesia Willy, Nurjannah Siti (2019). Pengaruh Kemasan Produk dan Rasa terhadap Minat Beli yang berdampak pada Keputusan Pembelian Pelanggan Minuman Energi. Jurnal Ilmu Manajemen. Vol. 9. No. 2 Juni 2019 Yaqian Zhou (2011). The Impact Of Customer-Based Brand Equity On Revisit Intentions: An Empirical Study Of Business And Leisure Travelers At Five Shanghai Budget Hotels. AU-GSB Ejournal (Online) Vol. 4. No. 1 Pp. 168-181 Yaziq (2008). Pemasaran Jasa: Konsep Dan Implementasi. Yogyakarta. Ekonisia Yuliana (2015). Pengaruh Variasi Produk dan Display Layout terhadap Minat Beli Konsumen Muslim di Toko Bandeng Juwana Erlina Semarang. Universitas Islam Negeri Walisongo. Semarang Yuwomo Hendro, Yuwana Syamswana (2017). Pengaruh Pelayanan dan Keragaman Produk terhadap Kepuasan Konsumeen pada Toko King di Malang: Jurnal Ekonomi Manajemen. Vol. 02. No. 1, Mei 2017 Zeithaml, V. A. dan Mario Jo Bitner (1996). Service Marketing. McGraw-Hill Companies Inc., New York. Website: http://www.istagram.com/p/B_T6SK6hxqh/?igshid=ph2vx9q6uez5 http://www.instagram.com/p/B8ndAlgh-pu/?igshid=c6ifdivol252 http://www.instagram.com/p/CGJoaQhgM01/?igshid=i9pryyomhug http://golekrowo.blogspot.com/2019/06/kopi-janji-jiwa-bertahan-dengan-racikan.html?m=1https://www.google.com/search?q=menu+kopi+janji+jiwa+pontianak&safe=strict&client=ms-android-xiaomi-revl&prmd=ivn&sxsrf=ACYBGNRLxBAppyrXQKAOdfdxUJlk1b0Czg:1573270681893&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiuvISBmtzlAhWDfysKHdNkDV8Q_AUoAXoECA0QAQ&cshid=1573270759165&biw=360&bih=667&dpr=2#imgrc+Oe_d3WFr-uV-vM

Medical Research Council UK (MRC) ; Wellcome Trust 102215/2/13/2 WT088806 084762MA ; Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council (BBSRC) BB/I025751/1 BB/I025263/1 ; UK Medical Research Council Integrative Epidemiology Unit ; University of Bristol MC_UU_12013_1 MC_UU_12013_2 MC_UU_12013_5 MC_UU_12013_8 ; United States Department of Health & Human Services National Institutes of Health (NIH) - USA NIH National Institute of Diabetes & Digestive & Kidney Diseases (NIDDK) R01 DK10324 ; Swedish Research Council ; Swedish Heart-Lung Foundation ; Freemason Child House Foundation in Stockholm ; European Union (EU) 261357 ; Stockholm County Council ; Swedish Foundation for Strategic Research RBc08-0027 ; Strategic Research Programme (SFO) in Epidemiology at Karolinska Institutet ; Swedish Research Council Swedish Research Council Formas ; Swedish Environment Protection Agency ; Center for Integrative Research on Childhood Leukemia and the Environment P01ES018172 ; United States Department of Health & Human Services National Institutes of Health (NIH) - USA P50ES018172 R01ES09137 5P30CA082103 P01 ES009605 R01 ES021369 R01ES023067 K01ES017801 R01ES022216 P30ES007048 R01ES014447 P01ES009581 R826708-01 RD831861-01 P50ES026086 R01DK068001 R01 DK100340 R01 DK076648 R01ES022934 R01HL111108 R01NR013945 R37 HD034568 UL1 TR001082 P30 DK56350 ; United States Environmental Protection Agency RD83451101 RD83615901 RD 82670901 RD 83451301 83615801-0 ; UCSF Comprehensive Cancer Center Support grant P30 CA82103 ; Swiss National Science Foundation (SNSF) P2LAP3_158674 ; Sutter-Stottner Foundation ; European Union (EU) QLRT-2001-00389 QLK1-CT-2002-30582 ; European Union (EU) 007036 ; European Union (EU) 289346 ; European Research Council (ERC) 322605 META-GROWTH ; European Research Council (ERC) 322605 META-GROWTH ; Funds for Research in Respiratory Health ; Ministry of Research, France ; Institut National de la Sante et de la Recherche Medicale (Inserm) ; French Ministry of Health: Perinatality Program ; French National Institute for Population Health Surveillance (INVS) ; Paris-Sud University ; Institut National de la Sante et de la Recherche Medicale (Inserm) ; Nestle ; Mutuelle Generale de l'Education Nationale (MGEN) ; French-speaking association for the study of diabetes and metabolism (Alfediam) 2012/51290-6 ; European Research Council (ERC) ERC-2012-StG.310898 268479-BREATHE ; Flemish Scientific Research Council (FWO) N1516112 / G.0.873.11N.10 ; European Community's Seventh Framework Programme FP7 project EXPOsOMICS 308610 ; European Union (EU) 628858 ; Bijzonder Onderzoeksfonds (BOF) Hasselt University ; Ministry of the Flemish Community (Department of Economics, Science and Innovation) ; Ministry of the Flemish Community (Department of Environment, Nature and Energy) ; FWO ; FWO 12L5216N ; Flemish Institute for Technological Research (VITO) 12L5216N ; Bill AMP; Melinda Gates Foundation Grand Challenges Exploration grant OPP119403 ; Sandler Family Foundation ; American Asthma Foundation ; United States Department of Health & Human Services National Institutes of Health (NIH) - USA ; United States Department of Health & Human Services National Institutes of Health (NIH) - USA NIH National Heart Lung & Blood Institute (NHLBI) HL117004 ; United States Department of Health & Human Services National Institutes of Health (NIH) - USA NIH National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS) ES24844 ; 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Penelitian ini bertujuan untuk menguji dan menganalisis pengaruh pendapatanasli daerah, dana alokasi umum, dana alokasi khusus terhadap belanja modal dengan pertumbuhan ekonomi sebagai variabel moderasi pada pemerintah daerah kabupaten/kota di Provinsi Kalimantan Barat pada tahun 2015-2019. Penelitian ini menggunakan metode kuantitatif dengan data sekunder yangdiambil dari website bps dan djpk. Sampel dalam penelitian ini sebanyak 12 kabupaten dan 2 kota selama periode 5 tahun dengan teknik sensus sebagai teknik penarikan sampel. Teknik analisis data menggunakan aplikasi linier berganda yaitu Moderated Regression Analysis (MRA) yang mengandung unsur interaksi dengan menggunakan bantuan perangkat lunak SPSS 25. Hasil penelitian menunjukkan bahwa dana alokasi khusus berpengaruh positifterhadap belanja modal. Sedangkan pendapatan asli daerah, dana alokasi umum tidak berpengaruh terhadap belanja modal. Pertumbuhan ekonomi tidak memoderasi pengaruh pendapatan asli daerah terhadap belanja modal tetapi, pertumbuhan ekonomi terbukti memoderasi pengaruh dana alokasi umum dan dana alokasi khusus terhadap belanja modal, namun pertumbuhan ekonomi bersifat memperlemah pengaruh dana alokasi khusus terhadap belanja modal. Adyatma, E., & Oktaviani, R. M. (2015). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah dan Dana Alokasi Umum Terhadap Belanja Modal Dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi Sebagai Pemoderasi. Jurnal Dinamika Akuntansi, Keuangan Dan Perbankan, 4(2), 190–205.Alfasadun, Hardiningsih, P., & Wakhidati, I. N. (2017). Karakteristik Daerah Terhadap Belanja Modal Dengan Pemoderasi Pertumbuhan Ekonomi. Jurnal Dinamika Akuntansi, Keuangan Dan Perbankan, 6(1), 53–66.Ananda, R. F., Muda, I., & Tarmizi, H. (2019). The Effect Of Revenue Sharing Funds, General Allocation Funds, Special Allocation Funds and Special Autonomy Funds on Capital Expenditure With Economic Growth As Moderating Variables in The Government of The District/City in Aceh Province in 2008-2017. International Journal of Public Budgeting, Accounting and Finance, 4(3), 1–13.Anny Widiasmara. (2019). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah, Dana Alokasi Khusus, Dana Alokasi Umum, Total Aset dan Luas Wilayah, terhadap Belanja Modal dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi sebagai Variabel Moderating. Journal of Islamic Finance and Accounting, 2(1), 45–56.Ariawaty, R. N., & Evita, S. N. (2018). Metode Kuantitatif Praktis. PT. Bima Pratama Sejahtera.Asih, S., & Irawan. (2018). Pengaruh Kontribusi Pajak Daerah, Pendapatan Asli Daerah, Retribusi Daerah dan Bagi Hasil Pajak Terhadap Belanja Daerah Dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi Sebagai Variabel Moderating Pemerintah Kabupaten dan Kota. Jurnal Akuntansi Bisnis & Publik, 9(1), 177–191.Asnawi, & Ulan, Z. S. (2018). Pengaruh Pendapata Asli Daerah (PAD), Dana Alokasi Umum (DAU), dan Dana Alokasi Khusus (DAK) Terhadap Belanja Modal Pada Kabupaten dan Kota di Pulau Jawa. Jurnal Education and Economics, 1(4), 450–463.Ayem, S., & Pratama, D. D. (2018). Pengaruh Pertumbuhan Ekonomi, Dana Alokasi Umum, Dana Alokasi Khusus dan Pendapatan Asli Daerah Terhadap Belanja Modal di Provinsi Daerah Istimewa Yogyakarta Periode 2011-2016. Jurnal Akuntansi Dewantara, 2(2), 169–182.Badan Pusat Statistik. (2020). Statistik Keuangan Pemerintah Kabupaten/Kota. Indonesia: Badan Pusat Statistik.Bastian, I. (2006). Akuntansi Sektor Publik: Suatu Pengantar (S. Saat & Y. Sumiharti (Eds.)). Erlangga.Dewi, E. P. (2019). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah (PAD), Dana Alokasi Umum (DAU) dan Dana Alokasi Khusus (DAK) Terhadap Belanja Modal Pada Kabupaten/Kota di Sumatera Barat Tahun 2012-2017. INTELEKTIVA: Jurnal Ekonomi, Sosial Dan Humaniora, 1(4).Direktorat Jenderal Perimbangan Keuangan. (2021). Portal Data. Indonesia: Kementerian Keuangan.Fahrunisah, N., & Badjuri, A. (2017). Faktor-faktor yang Mempengaruhi Belanja Modal dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi Sebagai Variabel Pemoderasi (Studi empiris pada Kab/Kota Provinsi Jawa Tengah Periode 2013-2015). Jurnal Dinamika Akuntansi, Keuangan Dan Perbankan, 6(2), 189–205.Froza, D., Zamzami, & Arum, E. D. P. (2018). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah, Dana Alokasi Umum Terhadap Belanja Modal serta Dampaknya Terhadap Pertumbuhan Ekonomi Daerah (Studi Pada Kabupaten dan Kota di Provinsi Jambi). Jurnal Akuntansi Dan Keuangan Unja, 3(2), 49–60.Hardiningsih, P., Meita Oktaviani, R., & Srimindarti, C. (2018). Regional Capabilities, Transfers And Wide Of Area Influence To Capital Expenditures With Moderation Of Economic Growth. The Indonesian Journal of Accounting Research, 21(1), 47–74.Hidayati, N. (2016). Analisis Pengaruh PAD, DAU, dan DAK Terhadap Alokasi Belanja Modal dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi Sebagai Variabel Moderasi pada Pemerintah Daerah Kabupaten/Kota di Provinsi Jawa Tengah. Muhammadiyah Surakarta.Jaeni, G., & L, A. (2016). Pertumbuhan Ekonomi sebagai Variabel Pemoderasi Pendapatan Asli Daerah dan Dana Alokasi Khusus terhadap Belanja Modal. Prosiding Seminar Nasional Multi Disiplin Ilmu & Call For Papers UNISBANK, 692–702.Juniawan, M. A., & Suryantini, N. P. S. (2018). Pengaruh PAD, DAU dan DAK Terhadap Belanja Modal Kota dan Kabupaten di Provinsi Bali. E-Jurnal Manajemen Unud, 7(3), 1255–1281.Kumendong, F. F., & Hutabarat, F. M. (2020). Dana Alokasi Umum, Dana Alokasi Khusus, Pendapatan Asli Daerah dan Belanja Modal: Analisa Keuangan Pada Kabupaten Bandung Barat. Journal of Applied Accounting and Taxation, 5(1), 50–56.Mahardika, S. A., & Riharjo, I. B. (2019). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah dan Dana Alokasi Umum Terhadap Belanja Modal Dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi sebagai Variabel Pemoderasi. Jurnal Ilmu Dan Riset Akuntansi, 8(11).Masruroh, A. (2018). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah dan Dana Alokasi Umum terhadap Belanja Modal dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi Sebagai Variabel Moderasi pada Kota/Kabupaten di Provinsi Jawa Timur. Jurnal Simki Ekonomik, 02(01), 1–15.Mohklas, & Purwati, D. I. (2019). MEMODERASIKAH PERTUMBUHAN EKONOMI TERHADAP BELANJA MODAL? (Studi Kasus Pada Pemerintah Kabupaten/Kota di Provinsi Jawa Tengah Periode 2012-2016). STABILITY: Journal of Management & Business, 2(1).Muliawanty, E. S. (2018). Pengaruh Kinerja Keuangan Terhadap Nilai Perusahaan dengan Kebijakan Dividen Sebagai Variabel Moderating. Feb Usakti.P, P. P., Riany, M., J.S, E. P., & K, E. S. (2019). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah dan Dana Alokasi Umum Terhadap Pengalokasian Anggaran Belanja Modal (Studi Empiris Pada Pemerintah Provinsi Se-Provinsi Jambi 2009-2017). Jurnal Akuntansi Dan Keuangan Unja, 4(4), 26–32.Pasoloran, O., & Rahman, F. A. (2001). Teori Stewardships: Tinjauan Konsep dan Implikasinya Pada Akuntabilitas Organisasi Sektor Publik. Jurnal Bisnis Dan Akuntansi, 9(2), 418–432.Peraturan Menteri dalam negeri Nomor 59 Tahun 2007 Tentang Perubahan Atas Peraturan Menteri Dalam Negeri Nomor 13 Tahun 2006 Tentang Pedoman Pengelolaan Keuangan Daerah. (n.d.).Peraturan Pemerintah No 71 Tahun 2010. (n.d.). http://www.dikti.go.id/files/atur/PP17-2010Lengkap.pdfPrabawati, P. S. S., & Wany, E. (2017). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah, Dana Alokasi Umum dan Dana Bagi HAsil Terhadap Alokasi Belanja Modal Dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi Sebagai Variabel Moderating Pada Pemerintah Daerah Kabupaten/Kota Provinsi Jawa Timur Tahun 2013-2015. Jurnal Equilibrium, 1, 1–17.Pradana, Y. E., & Handayani, N. (2017). Pengaruh PAD, DAU, dan DAK Terhadap Belanja Modal. Jurnal Ilmu Dan Riset Akuntansi, 6(3).Pratama, R. (2017). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah, Dana Alokasi Umum, Dana Alokasi Khusus Terhadap Alokasi Belanja Modal Dengan Pertumbuhan Ekonomi Sebagai Variabel Moderasi (Studi Empiris Pada Pemerintah Kabupaten/Kota di Provinsi Riau). JOMFekom, 4(1), 843–857.Prof. H. Imam Ghozali, M. Com, Ph. D, Ca, A. (2018). Aplikasi Analisis Multivariate dengan program IBM SPSS 25 (9th ed.). Badan Penerbit Universitas Diponegoro.Rosmawati, & Ishak, A. A. A. (2017). Analisis Pengakuan, Pengukuran, Penilaian dan Pengungkapan Akuntansi Aset Tetap Berdasarkan PSAP No.07 Pada Politeknik Negeri Ujung Pandang. Prosiding Seminar Hasil Penelitian (SNP2M), 2017(07), 80–86.Rusdan, S. Y. (2017). Pengaruh Pendapatan Asli Daerah, Dana Alokasi Umum, Luas Wilayah, dan Total Aset Terhadap Belanja Modal Pada Kabupaten/Kota di Provinsi Sumatera Barat. Jurnal Akuntansi, 4(1).Sari, D. G. Y. A., Kepramareni, P., & Novitasari, N. L. G. (2017). Pengaruh Pertumbuhan Ekonomi, Pendapatan Asli Daerah, Dana Perimbangan dan Sisa Lebih Pembiayaan Anggaran Terhadap Alokasi Belanja Modal Kabupaten/Kota Se-Bali Kepramareni Ni Luh Gde. Jurnal KRISNA: Kumpulan Riset Akuntansi, 9(1), 15–29.Sartika, N., Kirmizi, & Indrawati, N. (2017). Analisis Faktor-faktor dalam Struktur APBD dan Kinerja Keuangan Daerah yang Mempengaruhi Belanja Modal pada Kabupaten/Kota di Provinsi Riau. Jurnal Sorot, 12(2), 121.Undang-Undang No 32 Tahun 2004 Tentang Pemerintah Daerah. (n.d.).Undang-Undang Republik Indonesia Nomor 17 Tahun 2003. (n.d.).Undang-Undang Republik Indonesia Nomor 23 Tahun 2014 Tentang Pemerintah Daerah. (n.d.).Undang-Undang Republik Indonesia Nomor 25 Tahun 2009 Tentang Pelayanan Publik. (n.d.).Undang-Undang Republik Indonesia Nomor 33 Tahun 2004 Tentang Perimbangan Keuangan Antara Pemerintah Pusat dan Pemerintah Daerah. (n.d.).Widyatama, K. (2015). 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Part one of an interview with Aldo and Anna Mazzaferro. Topics include: Family history. How his parents came to the United States from Italy. How his parents were married and moved to Leominster, MA. Aldo's education and memories from Leominster High School and Holy Cross. Aldo's work at the DuPont company. What life was like during World War II. Aldo's work history. How Aldo and Anna were married. In 1953, Aldo started his CPA business in Leominster and Fitchburg. The different clients he had. His work at Art Plastics and the plastics business in general. His sons joined the plastics business. ; 1 INTERVIEWER: October 4, 2011. This is Linda [Rosenwan], with the Center for Italian Culture at Fitchburg State College with Aldo and Anna Mazzaferro's house, 575 West Street in Leominster. So maybe we should begin, Aldo, if you could just give me some personal information regarding when you were born and where. SPEAKER 1: Very definitely. But I must say that October 4th, 1955, our second son was born. Today is his birthday. SPEAKER 2: That's right. SPEAKER 1: But getting back to me, I was born on November 11th, 1921, in Leominster, Massachusetts. And I went to the public schools here, graduated from Leominster High School 1939. And I went on to Holy Cross College after graduation from Leominster High School. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Were your parents both born in Leominster? SPEAKER 1: No, they were not. They were both born in Italy. My dad was born in the province of Abruzzo in a town called [Scafa]. And my mother was born in Abruzzo on the Adriatic Sea in a town called Pescara. And my dad was born in 1880, and my mother was born in 1882. INTERVIEWER: And when did your father come to this country? SPEAKER 1: My father came to this country, I would say, around 1900. In the winter, they lived in the Bronx within New York. [Unintelligible - 00:01:52] Ellis Island. He lived in the Bronx. INTERVIEWER: And your mother? SPEAKER 1: And my mother arrived, I would say, probably 1902, 1903. And she also went to live in the Bronx, New York with her sister. And her sister was married, had a family, and so my mother came over. And prior to my mother's coming over here in the Bronx, my dad and my mother conducted a romance by way of correspondence through letters. They didn't know each other. So he paid for -- my dad paid for my mother's passage here.2 SPEAKER 2: Your dad boarding at… SPEAKER 1: Yeah. My dad was a boarder. In those days it was frequent -- frequently, the immigrants would come over and they would go to places where they have some relatives or friends. And they were taken in as boarders. My dad was a boarder at my mother's sister's house or apartment in New York City. It is how my dad saw pictures of my mother and how it all started. SPEAKER 2: Sent for her to come from Italy to America. SPEAKER 1: Yeah, he paid for her passage. INTERVIEWER: So they followed. SPEAKER 1: So they courted, married a couple of days later. SPEAKER 2: It was all done that way, the parents would pick a mate for their son or their daughter. In fact, I think it was done on the next generation, too. I have a cousin that was married that way. She lived in Italy, and her husband lived in New York. And they sent for one another and met through pictures and photographs. INTERVIEWER: And did the female part of this arrangement, did she have much to say about it? SPEAKER 1: I'm sure she did. I'm sure that -- my mother is a very strong-willed person, and she did what -- she preferred -- to do it, apparently, it was a great attraction between my parents, and -- it wasn't pre-arranged. It was sustained correspondent with each other and having interests, and it materialized when they met it New York. INTERVIEWER: Interesting. So what brought them to Leominster? SPEAKER 1: Well, they had their children in New York. They're nine -- they had nine children. I believe -- let's see, four or five were born in the Bronx, New York. And my dad wound up in a basement apartment in New York and ran the apartment building for the landlord. And as part of the rent, he lives rent-free with his family. And it came about that my mother's brother, Horrace, came to Leominster and found that there was work here at the DuPont 3 Company. And so he sent news back to the Bronx, and so my dad came along. He got a job at the DuPont Company in Leominster, and he came here with all his family. He works here I don't know for how long a period of time. Let's say around 1950 or 1970, and he brought his family to New York and settled down in Leominster. And they settled at 53 [unintelligible - 00:06:00], and that particular house was owned by one of the mayors of Leominster, Mayor Burdett, and they rented that house. It was a cottage with three bedrooms upstairs and with some land [unintelligible - 00:06:17]. But they eventually purchased that property after a few years. INTERVIEWER: So what kind of work did he do at DuPont? SPEAKER 1: Well he was a -- not a laborer. A benchman, I would believe, at the DuPont Company. But it wasn't to his liking, so he left DuPont Company and went to work for the Leominster Fuel Company and became the delivery person, delivered coal. The Leominster Fuel Company, in those days had the [unintelligible - 00:07:00], and they were always delivered. Those were the days they really have oil burners. And so frankly, our homes, all the boilers used coal. INTERVIEWER: Did you ever go with him to make a delivery? SPEAKER 1: No, no. No, I never did. I was not quite three years old when my dad died. INTERVIEWER: That must have been tremendous hardship for your mother. So your family decided to stay in Leominster? SPEAKER 1: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yes. After my father died, the ninth child was born a couple of months later. Well, the family stayed in Leominster. My oldest brother was probably 16 or 17. He left high school and went to work to support the family. And then each brother, you know, took his turn and went to work and supported the family. And one of my brothers -- I have five brothers ahead 4 of me, and only one was able to complete high school. And I was the sixth brother, and I was able to complete high school. INTERVIEWER: And are you the only one that attended college? SPEAKER 1: Yes, I'm the only one who attended college. INTERVIEWER: Would you like to stop for a minute? SPEAKER 1: Okay. All right. Well as I grew up, without my dad, my mother always impressed upon me the fact that my dad long ago wanted his children to go to college, to get a good education. She was quite disappointed that it wasn't happening. So I guess I was determined to do that, go to college, so that my mother would be happy. So when I was in junior high school I took the classical course, and in most days, junior high school went through the ninth grade. So when I was in ninth grade I questioned whether or not I had the financial resources to go to college. So I determined that there was no way that I could go to college. We don't have enough funds. So when I went to Leominster high school in my sophomore year, I switched from the classical course to college course to the commercial course. And then during my sophomore year at Leominster high school, I trained my mind [unintelligible - 00:10:07] determination that I wanted to go to college bad enough that I would find some way to go. And so my junior/senior year, I switched back to the college course in Leominster High School, and in those days it was a three-year high school, you had to have a minimum of 40 credits a year to pass. We have to have 120 credits to graduate, but because of the fact that I had to cram two college preparation years in my junior/senior year, I was required to take extra courses. So I had hardly any -- I don't think I had any study periods in my senior year. I recall only having one [unintelligible - 00:10:54] period and some semester not having [unintelligible - 00:10:59]. So as a result of that I took a great deal of courses at 5 Leominster High School. I had one year of business courses in commercial, which helped me later on in college. In my junior/senior year I had the college courses. So I was graduated with 151 credits from Leominster High School. We were only required 120, 125. The average credits that they got when we graduate, probably 125. I had 151, and a lot of course were behind me. INTERVIEWER: Did you have to work while you were in high school? SPEAKER 1: Yes, while I was in junior high school, actually junior high school, I got a job working at a Chinese laundry. I learned how to man load shirts, [unintelligible - 00:11:51] the collar, the collar, [unintelligible - 00:11:54] the cuffs, and to iron the shirts. So I learned -- I did very well. I worked at various Chinese laundries in Leominster, Fitchburg on Saturdays, especially. Also my high school years, I started to work at a Chinese laundry while I was in junior high school. And before the Chinese laundry career, I shined shoes at Monument Square in Leominster on Fridays and Saturdays. In most days everyone went downtown. On Saturdays, it's quite crowded downtown, and I did okay shining shoes. INTERVIEWER: I bet you could bank quite a bit of money doing that. SPEAKER 1: I don't have a bank. INTERVIEWER: You don't have a bank. You gave it to your mother? SPEAKER 1: There wasn't enough to go around. I can remember one time when I was in junior high school, I believe, it was during the Depression days in 1930s, and corduroy breeches were very popular in those days. They are the corduroy trousers that went down just below your knees, just below your knees, they had a little [unintelligible - 00:13:12], and they would walk, and they would try to meet that. Everybody at school would have a pair of corduroy breeches. I never had any. INTERVIEWER: Did you wish you did?6 SPEAKER 1: Well, I pushed my older brother Tony, who worked at the DuPont Company—he used to work four to twelve—and you know, just begged him to buy me a pair. He did finally buy me a pair, but I don't know what it costs. It costs less than a dollar, I think, in those days. And I was very proud that I had it. INTERVIEWER: And when you went to Holy Cross, what year was that? SPEAKER 1: Well, in 1939, I graduated -- I graduated in Leominster High School in 1939 in June. I went to Holy Cross in September 1943. And I was admitted to Holy Cross on a scholarship work program, and I was required to pay about one-third of the tuition. In those days, tuition was $280, and I was required to pay $100 of that tuition. And the balance I was required to earn at a rate of approximately 35 cents an hour credit working in the college library. INTERVIEWER: Thirty five cents… SPEAKER 1: … an hour would be credited towards… INTERVIEWER: To the $100 or the $200? SPEAKER 1: … to the 180 balance. That's what I was required to do. So I worked in my freshman year at the college library, normally evenings from about six o'clock to nine o'clock five and six evenings a week, unless there was some college event that I couldn't do it. Basically I did that all during my freshmen year, I worked at the college library, even some Saturdays and Sundays. In those days we went to college, we had classes on Saturday mornings until noontime. So, college was six days a week way back in the '30s and '40s. INTERVIEWER: So you lived on campus then? SPEAKER 1: No, I did not. I lived -- in my freshman year, I lived in Worcester with my older sister. She was married and lived in Worcester, and I stayed with her and I took the bus. And in my freshman year, I commuted, went to Holy Cross. And I lived with her in my 7 freshman year. And then from my sophomore year on, I stayed in Leominster. I lived in Leominster and I commuted daily to Holy Cross. In those days class started at nine o'clock in the morning and ran until 3:30. And then lab would be in the afternoon until 5:30, six o'clock. INTERVIEWER: And then you worked. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 00:16:20]? INTERVIEWER: No, that's fine. We're going to edit this anyway. Then you would work until nine o'clock at night? SPEAKER 1: No. Well, yes, in the college library. So I'd get home at -- in my freshman year I'd probably get back at 9:30, 10:00 to my sister's house. That was during my freshmen year. That was quite a program. I was gone all the time. But I didn't look upon it -- I shifted to something that had to be done. So I might say that during my freshman year, that the library, right after the football season was over, that one of the -- my good friend in class that played in the college band showed up at the library to work and told me that he was on the same scholarship work program that I was on, and that he had to play in the band and then work at the library to earn his credits. And he told me that next year, because he was in the college band, it would not be necessary for him to work at the library, just be in the college band he would get enough credits so he wouldn't have to work in the library. Just play in the college band. So I didn't know one note of music, and I heard about this. So in those days, they have the WTA Recreation Week, and they [unintelligible - 00:18:04]. They were offering the class on how to play musical instrument at the [unintelligible - 00:18:10] in Worcester. And this was during my freshman year. And so there was a Professor Castana who taught music, and I decided that I wanted to learn to play the cornet so that I could fit into the college 8 band in my sophomore year. So I approached him and told him that I had not -- I'm not looking to be a music major. I just wanna know enough music so that I could play well enough to play the Star-Spangled Banner and probably the football march and some things like that, and national anthem so that I could be admitted into the college band. So I took music lessons in the spring of my freshman year from about, I'd say from January to May in Worcester while I lived with my sister. So I used to go down there, so I'm busy weekends, and whenever I could fit it in, sometimes during the afternoon. INTERVIEWER: So was that a success? Did you get admitted? SPEAKER 1: Yes, yes. I came back after my freshman year was over in the summer of 1940, there was a Professor [unintelligible - 00:19:40] that taught music, and I finished my musical education with him. And I got to play the cornet, and I told him the same thing. I just want him to know that I wasn't gonna do a major in music. So then in my freshmen year, I was admitted to the college band. And I played the second cornet, second trumpet. So I knew all the [unintelligible - 00:20:18]. In a couple of weeks, I learned all the songs that have to be played, probably 12 or 15. And I played in the second cornet. I didn't require the music sheet on the lyre. And so because I could play by heart all the numbers, they placed me outside of the band. When you go on the outside so that you could [unintelligible - 00:20:49] the person on the outside will all be going [unintelligible - 00:20:54]. So that's where I wound up with the college band. INTERVIEWER: Do you still play? SPEAKER 1: No, I don't. I quitted after my junior year, and I haven't played. I'm not a musician.9 SPEAKER 2: Wasn't there a story where you started to usher because you found you got more credits being in the usher than you were playing in a band? SPEAKER 1: Well, what happened was half of my freshmen year, I was able to find a job with the DuPont Company. And in the summer after my freshman year, I worked on the 12-8 shift at the DuPont Company. Then when school started in the fall in my sophomore year, I was able to continue working at the DuPont Company. In order to keep my job with them, I was required to work 82 hours a week, and I would be considered a permanent employee. And if I put in 32 hours or more per week, I would be entitled to a two-week vacation period and paid holidays. So that's what I did in my sophomore, junior, and senior years. While I was at Holy Cross I had a full-time job working at the DuPont Company. My normal schedule after the football season was over, that I had to work on a Saturday from 4-12. I would get 8 hours. Then on a Sunday I would go to mass at 7 o'clock, and I would be at the DuPont Company from 8 o'clock, and I would work 8-4. So on a Saturday and Sunday, I got 16 hours, and I have the rest of the week to get in another 16 or more hours. So the way the classes were at Holy Cross on a Tuesday and a Thursday, the class schedule was light. I would have I think two classes at night on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I was normally to class about 1:30 to two o'clock and it was all done class on two o'clock. So I would get back to Leominster at three o'clock, four o'clock, usually five or six o'clock, and I would work from 6-9 and 7-10, something like that. Or even sometimes 7-12. And once in a while, if I was up to it, I would even go beyond 12 o'clock at work. If I have an exam the next day I would probably work until… INTERVIEWER: I guess I'm wondering when did you study? I think…10 SPEAKER 1: Going to see if I'm coming too strong enough [unintelligible - 00:24:06]. Ah, let's see. When did I study? I didn't study as much as I would've wanted to. In order to make up for the fact that I couldn't study as much as I wanted to, when I was in class I really focused on what the professor was talking about. I would not permit myself to be distracted by what was going on in class. I just focused right on that professor and tried to understand what they were trying to put across. And I think that saved me a lot of -- I did my homework, less consuming. But I studied between classes, and I actually used to study on the job at the DuPont Company. I had a job running an automatic comb-polishing machine, was about 40 or 50 feet long. And I sat at the beginning of the machine, and said comb fell into a belt. And after a while you'll get so used to it you didn't have to look at what you're doing. You just grab a handful of combs, and one by one you would put those combs down the belt about a half an inch a pack. And you didn't have to watch it too carefully. So I used to set up the machine with a book in my lap if I have some studying to do. So I used to get some studying done that way. And the… INTERVIEWER: And what was your major? SPEAKER 1: My major at Holy Cross was economics, Bachelor of Science in Economics. But that's when I enrolled there. But then in the senior year, they changed the name of the degree to Business Administration. Actually, my concentration there was in Economics, actually. I took the accounting -- the accounting program was required for the first two years. And then after the junior and senior year, then you decide whether or not to continue on the accounting later on. I decided to get into economics, applied economics. INTERVIEWER: What was it like going to school during the war?11 SPEAKER 1: Well, it wasn't really until December 7, 1941, the day of Pearl Harbor, that I think that the [unintelligible - 00:26:52] heavily involved in. There was a -- I don't exactly know when. I don't think that the interest in following through -- there would seem to be a "Let's get it over with. I'm gonna be in the service anyway. Let's get education over with," and everything was accelerated. After 1942, they dispensed with the summer vacation from college. Normally you would get out of college in first week of June. We went right through, started our senior year in June of 1942. We finished our -- we finished our junior year in May of 1942. It took just a few weeks, two days before we started the senior year, went right through the summer. [Unintelligible - 00:28:17] a week down to July 4th, holiday. It was like that right through the summer of 1942. And with the accelerated program, we graduated February 1943 where we should have been graduated in June of 1943. And there was gas rationing in those days, and travel was my priority. So it was difficult to travel. INTERVIEWER: At that time you were traveling back and forth at Leominster? SPEAKER 1: I was commuting back and forth. INTERVIEWER: So how did you do that? SPEAKER 1: We have enough gas. It was rationed. We have enough gas to go to school. But because of the travel restriction, they cancelled our graduation exercises. So we had no graduation exercises in 1943, and we received our diplomas through the mail. I might say that about traveling, it wasn't commuting back and forth that was the worst to Holy Cross from Leominster that my brother and myself, in my sophomore year, bought a 1929 Packard that I could use and was gonna use later on in this business. So when I went back to school in September of my sophomore year with the Packard, I had about four, five other students as passengers, and that helped to defer the cost of traveling gas and oil back and forth to Worcester. 12 And this Packard broke down after the second week that I was in college. I had to tow it back to Leominster. So over the weekend there was an old 1934 Packard that was for sale, so my brother purchased this 1934 Packard for $50. And I used that, but it consumed a lot of gasoline. I probably got six or seven or eight miles a gallon at the most. But gasoline was not expensive in those days. You can probably get -- I think we were paying 12 to 15 cents a gallon of gasoline in 1940, 1941. So… INTERVIEWER: So it sounds as if your brothers gave out a lot for the family. SPEAKER 1: Well, I always -- they helped, definitely. When I need a couple of dollars here and there, and usually they would let me have a dollar or two if I need it. But then as I worked at the DuPont Company and got in, got my time, especially in the summer, I worked full time. I worked 40 hours a week and probably even 48 or 50. I put in plenty of time. And then the two-week vacation period that I got paid for, I actually worked at the DuPont Company, so I developed this sufficient income stream to carry, to support myself. INTERVIEWER: Did anyone else go to college from your family? SPEAKER 1: No. Not anyone. No. INTERVIEWER: Again, going back to the war. Did you have to serve? SPEAKER 1: No, I didn't. I was eligible for limited service. So I wasn't eligible for the draft until I was graduated from college. In those days I believe all the college students were permitted to finish their college career as long as they are in good standing. And so I was eligible for limited service. First time that the draft board called upon me, I went down and they didn't need anyone for limited service. And at that time I was working for Peat Marwick Mitchell Company. This was in 1943, and I was involved in auditing in the British West Indies, Central America, Northern South America. There was security involved in auditing, and I was doing it, and it 13 involved auditing for the United States government. And so I never got into the service. INTERVIEWER: Is this company in Leominster? SPEAKER 1: No. Peat Marwick Mitchell is one of the big three accounting firms in those days. There were Peat Marwick Mitchell, Price Waterhouse, [unintelligible - 00:33:52], companies like that. And today, Peat Marwick Mitchell is now known as KPGM, one of the big, large international firms. So I went to work for them in November of 1943. INTERVIEWER: And where was it located? SPEAKER 1: They have -- well, they have had their worldwide headquarters in London, in Scotland, in New York, throughout the United States, and I worked at the Boston office in the Worcester branch. I had assignments. I went to work with them in November. We audited companies like Melville Shoe, which became the Thom McAn shoe stores, the General Electric company, American Optical, [unintelligible - 00:34:50] Electronics… INTERVIEWER: Did you stay in Leominster and commute? SPEAKER 1: Yes. I probably -- much of the time I was with Peat Marwick Mitchell, I was traveling. And for instance, we would go to Southbridge and audit the books of American Optical; that would take about six weeks, seven weeks. And we would stay at the Columbia Hotel in Southbridge, Massachusetts all week long. So I would come home on weekends. It was like that. We audited the General Electric Company in Pittsville, Massachusetts with the same arrangement. We would stay at the hotel. There was lot of traveling away from -- in fact, in 1944, I was on assignment to Central America from Labor Day to Thanksgiving. So I was away and conducting audits for the United States Commercial Company, that supplies corporation that was part of the security that Peat Marwick Mitchell was involved in during the war. There was also, 14 in Panama, there was a tropical radio and telegraph company, which was very important for communication. That was part of the auditing contract that Peat Marwick Mitchell had with the United States government. But the big account that was prevalent throughout those areas was United Food Company, which was like a government unto itself. It had schools. It supported the schools. It had its own schools, education, railroads throughout the Central America. INTERVIEWER: And how long did you go with that company? SPEAKER 1: I was with Peat Marwick Mitchell until November of 1947. No, December, end of December, until January 1948 I was with Peat Marwick Mitchell. I left Peat Marwick Mitchell and went to work with Baker and Baker. It was another CPA firm out of [Worcester in] New York. And one of the assignments I had with them, the longest, was down in New York City working at 90 Broad Street, and we conducted investigation of the New York Waterworks. Investigation involves contracts and transactions that dated back to the early 1900s when they installed the water supply from New York City in Long Island. So I worked in the fraud investigation regarding a case that was going on. And as I lived in New York from -- I think I was assigned there from the end of July of 1948, July or August of 1948, and I was there until November of '48. We stayed at the St. George Hotel or St. Charles Hotel in Long Island. I would take the subway to Wall Street to 90 Broad Street where we were working on the audit. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and how long were you with that company? SPEAKER 1: I was with them I would say until 1950. And then I went to work -- one of the accounts that Baker and Baker had was the Dollar Greeting Cards, which was located in Fitchburg, Massachusetts. And I had conducted the audit of Dollar Greeting Cards for Baker and Baker Company. And then you recall there was a recession in 15 1949, and so Baker and Baker had to let much of its staff go. And I was one of the staff that was let go in probably August or September of 1949. SPEAKER 2: In May. SPEAKER 1: Well, they told me they were gonna let me go in May, but then after our wedding we came back, and they told me they're gonna keep me on. So that's an interesting story if you want me to tell you a little bit about it. INTERVIEWER: I was just about to ask you when you got married. 1949? SPEAKER 2: May 1949. He was unemployed. SPEAKER 1: Well, let me tell you the story is that that we had our wedding date set up May 7, 1949. It was two or three weeks before the wedding, Baker and Baker notified me that they're gonna have to let me go during my vacation, because of the, you know, the recession. So I didn't mention that to her. And so we were married. I think we were honeymooning in Canada, we went up to Canada, I said, well this is a safe place to tell her. So I let her know that she had married an unemployed person but not to worry about it because things will work out okay. And so we got back, and Baker and Baker kept me on for another two months, and I land the Dollar Greeting Cards audit after that. And then when they had to leave Baker and Baker, and so they came about the Dollar Greeting Card. Dollar Greeting Card needed assistants in the accounting department, the special projects that they had going on. So I was hired. So I left them. I was hired by Dollar Greeting cards. So I left Baker and Baker on a Friday, and on Monday I showed up at the Dollar Greeting Cards Company. And I worked there on special projects, and probably important projects. I worked onwards on assignments that determine the tax advantages and disadvantages of transferring Dollar Greeting Cards from being a Massachusetts corporation to a 16 North Hampshire corporation. That was one of the assignments I had, and I made the recommendation that it would be a great tax saving by relocating to North Hampshire. And so shortly after I made that report, I left. I left Dollar Greeting cards. I passed the CPA exam in November of 1949. Yes. And so it's 1950, I left Dollar Greeting Cards, and I went to work for Colorado Fuel and Iron Corporation that had the large steel manufacturing company. They had headquarters in Buffalo, Colorado. The eastern division was headquarters and offices at 585 Madison Avenue, and I worked out of the New York office. And my position with them is -- I was named assistant to the chief plant department for the Eastern division for of Colorado Fuel and Iron. And it had various divisions, it had the [unintelligible - 00:44:06] Iron and Steel division, which was located in New England. And while I was an auditor with Peat Marwick Mitchell, I ran -- Colorado Fuel was one of the clients of Peat Marwick Mitchell. So I ran the audit of the [unintelligible - 00:44:24] Steel division in Worcester, Clinton, and [unintelligible - 00:44:27], Massachusetts. And over this part there was a problem. There was an accounting problem regarding the inventory problem, which was quite serious, that I was involved in. And as a result of the examinations that I had to make, I got to meet the treasurer of the Colorado Fuel, [unintelligible - 00:44:54] from New York City during the course of this audit, which sort of took place in 1947, when I was auditing the [unintelligible - 00:45:07] Steel division. So we finally settled our differences and we certified the statements for Colorado Fuel and Iron. And at the end of the meetings that we had, the treasurer mentioned to me that most fellas in public accounting where I was, after four, five years, they tire up. They wanna find a place where they can have a career with a great company. And he said to me, think of Colorado Fuel 17 and Iron when you're ready to leave public accounting. So when I was with Dollar Greeting Cards in 1949 or 1950, I didn't see that I had a future there. And so I contacted the treasurer of Colorado Fuel and Iron and went down for an interview in New York City. I was hired immediately, and I went to work for them in 1950. INTERVIEWER: And after that you stayed behind? SPEAKER 2: We stayed in Leominster. SPEAKER 1: Yeah, they lived in Leominster. SPEAKER 2: He'd worked -- he'd come home weekends. And then we'll drive him to the Union Station in Worcester for him to take the midnight train, the sleeper, to go to work maybe Chicago, Buffalo, New York… SPEAKER 1: Not only Buffalo. They had a big -- so in Buffalo, in [unintelligible - 00:46:32] New York, the big steel facility requires [unintelligible - 00:46:36] Steel division. SPEAKER 2: It was -- Sunday night I would drive to Worcester for the midnight train. SPEAKER 1: So I would spend time away. INTERVIEWER: And how long did you stay with them? SPEAKER 1: I was with them -- I can remember the day exactly, April Fools' Day, April 1, 1953, I left. And I was traveling all the time. I was hardly ever home. Closest I ever worked was Clinton. They had a [unintelligible - 00:47:10] Steel, and then in Worcester. But they were all very small in comparison to the other facilities that Colorado Fuel had. In Buffalo there are probably 5,000 or 6,000 workers. And then in Trenton, New Jersey, we acquired the [unintelligible - 00:47:32] division, probably 5,000 or 6,000 people at work there. The nearest facility [unintelligible - 00:47:39] Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Claymont, Delaware, all these facilities that they have, I worked there. INTERVIEWER: So what happened in 1953?18 SPEAKER 1: Well, in 1953, I decided to come back to Leominster and establish my CPA practice. I always wanted to have a CPA practice to public accounting. And I had, I was certified. And so while I was head, all these employments out of town, I developed an accounting practice in Leominster and Fitchburg. And so what was important in getting back to Leominster is I had one account. And I had many, but one of the accounts I had was the Art Plastics Company, and it was a very successful plastics company. And it did the greatest volume of [unintelligible - 00:48:48] would be SS Kresge Company, which today is known as the Kmart. And so in 1951 or 1952, they started to lose their bargain in business that was the Kresge Company, and it got to the point where in late 1952, early 1953, they lost money, the volume of their business with the Kresge Company. And so they became insolvent. And they had -- they owed money to the major chemical manufacturer in those days. Dall Chemical, [unintelligible - 00:49:43] and so, the credit offices of these companies were located in the New York City area. And while I was with Colorado Fuel working down in Madison Avenue in New York, I contacted the credit department of the Dall Chemical, [unintelligible - 00:50:00], and was able to affect the settlement for Art Plastics of 10 to 25 cents on a dollar, they would settle for it, because I was able to show that without some compromise, the Art Plastics was gonna go out of business. They were insolvent, they were heading to bankruptcy. And so as a result of these accommodations I made for the Art Plastics Company, it was able to exist in not just to keep it running from day to day. And they had one account, a custom molding account, which was enough to keep it alive. So they wanted me to see what I could do, improve the facility and join the company and make it viable. And so I accepted an arrangement after great discussion to go to work with them on April 1 and leave Colorado Fuel. And19 my salary was $100 a week, which was less than what I was earning with Colorado Fuel. But the arrangement that I would stay long enough to either make a [unintelligible - 00:51:36] company or not, and that I would put all the time that I could, especially every morning, but then afternoons I would be free if I had to take care of my accounting practice, which I was going to build up. So I used Art Plastics as a steppingstone to develop my public accounting practice. And so I joined Art Plastics, and simultaneously, when I joined, there were three main stockholders, three partners at Art Plastics. One of them left abruptly as I joined the company, and so I joined the company and made all kinds of drastic cuts, like slashed salaries of the remaining partners, almost 50 percent, and you know, in [unintelligible - 00:52:40] warehouse based at [unintelligible - 00:52:44]. I made a lot of cost-cutting procedures. INTERVIEWER: So you were a very popular guy? SPEAKER 1: I was not popular at all. And so at the end of the first month, six to seven weeks that I was there, the second partner approached and said I can't get along on my meager income now, and what I'd like to do is leave the company but I'd like to take the machine shop as a swap for my share in the company. So I okayed it, and I checked with the other partner, the other remaining partner, who was elderly and who was not that active in the plastics business but who was the investment person, the person who put up the fund at the start the company. And so it was fine with him. So at the end of two months, I was -- I found myself there with just one partner. Then he suddenly developed an ulcer and was hospitalized, and he was told to stay away from the plastics company. So in the short space of time, I found myself running the plastic company that I didn't completely understand, and I was learning. And so that went on. I managed to keep running, and…20 INTERVIEWER: Doing all of these for a $100 a week? SPEAKER 1: Well, yes. But I had my accounting practice, and I was earning about as much in my accounting practice on a part-time basis, because I was working for the Art Plastics Company. And the practice was that I would hold my payroll checks for perhaps two or three weeks, whatever I had to, when there was not enough money in Art Plastics to cover the payroll checks. So we managed to stay alive and keep Art Plastics running. We get down to the point where we -- normally, Art Plastics had 60, 70 employees when it was running. But they kept down to the point where we only had five or six employees when there was hardly any business. But we managed to hang in there by cost cutting and settling with creditors in giving us time to pay. We managed to stay alive. And I stayed in the plastics business longer than what I had planned. So I was busy running the plastics business, running my public accounting practice, time goes by. And the plastics business was seasonal, and it worked out that public accounting in those days was seasonal. You were busy from about December until about April, and that's about when the plastics company was not that busy. So I was able to balance the two and keep the plastics company alive. And after three, four, five years, we developed new customers in the plastics, with Art Plastics. I made a decision around 1960 after just being so busy running the plastics business during the day and running my public accounting practice in the evening and weekends, and taking time away from the plastics business during the week, I made the decision to stay in the plastics business. And I thought that I might take my public accounting practice alive by bringing somebody in. And so it was 1959 or 1958, one of those years, that I brought in one of my colleagues that I work with at Peat Marwick Mitchell Company, 21 and he came to work with me, and I was passing on -- he handled all the public accounts. We set up an office, and the [unintelligible - 00:57:31] building downtown, I remember. And that went on for a year or a year and a half, maybe two years, and he abruptly passed away. And right in the middle of taxing, probably February or March. And so all these taxes returns we were working on, I had to get extensions. And so that's when I decided that I wouldn't be able to keep up my public accounting practice, so that's when I divested my accounts and made arrangements for other CPAs in the area to take over some of my accounts. But I wasn't able to give them all up. I kept a couple. Not that I wanted to, but because they wanted to. There was some loyalty there. And so I [unintelligible - 00:58:39] that I kept maybe for another 10, 15 years. It was not a very… INTERVIEWER: What made you stay in the Art Plastics Company? Sounds like an incredible amount of work. SPEAKER 1: Well, there is a lot of work. But we have 30, 40, 50 people there. You can delegate a lot. I think in public accounting, it was -- for me, it was more time-consuming to get the work done, whereas in manufacturing you delegate and you're more of a manager and you have time. And I can recall a conversation that I had with two of my colleagues when I was working in Southbridge at the American Optical, and we were talking one evening, the three of us, as to what we wanted to after we get out of public accounting. And one of them said, "Well, I wanna become the comptroller of a large gold chip firm." And he did, he became comptroller and assistant treasurer of the Pittston Company. And the other fellow wanted to stay in public accounting and be partner, and he did that. He stayed. I remember saying I wanna be a manufacturer. I just think that the opportunity in manufacturing, owning your own business. 22 I remember saying that maybe if turned up that I had that opportunity to work on… INTERVIEWER: So tell me, what did Art Plastics make? SPEAKER 1: Art Plastics had their line of horticultural flower pot ornaments, that was its line. It made these trellises for flower pots, it made the ornaments that you would stick in the flower pots, like the flamingoes, [unintelligible - 01:00:45] watering flowers, those palm trees, a frog on the… INTERVIEWER: And this was very popular in the '60s? SPEAKER 1: Well, it was -- yes, it had a line. But we developed a -- we got into custom molding products. Custom molding is more than we did, the proprietary line. So we became custom molders, basically. That's when we would -- people would come to us with molds of their own, and we would mold their products. And we used to -- one of our big accounts had a big line of toy dolls. And you know that Barbie doll that was popular? We used to mold that. We used to mold it in acetate. That was our main account. We mold it for the company that put the [unintelligible - 01:01:45] sprayed the eyes on it, the eye lashes. INTERVIEWER: The Barbie doll, the Mattel Company? SPEAKER 1: No, they were competitors. Got to be competitors. This was back in the late 1950s, '60s. Yeah. So we were custom molders. We used to mold for other big companies, like [unintelligible - 01:02:16]. They manufacture beautiful knives, forks, and spoons, and we used to mold those. And companies like Tupperware. Have you heard of Tupperware? They would get extremely busy, and they would approach molders like Art Plastics. And we would mold their basins and dish bowls and things like that on a seasonal basis. SPEAKER 2: Clothes hangers?23 SPEAKER 1: Clothes hangers. That was one big account. But we made all their hangers that they made—not for the consumer market but for the display of hangers in stores and department stores like Saks, and… [Lauren] Taylor, companies like that. They have a very expensive line of plastic hangers, and we were their molders. So we were -- we get a great deal of custom molding with Art Plastics. SPEAKER 2: May I insert a story? We were on the trip, and Aldo's looking at the store with fur coats in the windows. And our friends said, "Oh Aldo's looking to buy you a fur coat." I says, "No, he wants to see if that was one of the hangers molded at Art Plastics." SPEAKER 1: I want to see it that was one of our hangers. SPEAKER 2: So I had many stories little stories like that. He'd be looking to see if it was done at Art Plastics Company or some other place. INTERVIEWER: Now, what would happen if you saw that it was done at another? SPEAKER 1: Well, if it was a competitor's, I would report it back to our customers; say you got to get your salesman out there. So that's what Art Plastics did. And so it leads to some [unintelligible - 01:04:15]. INTERVIEWER: But I'm not sure I fully understand Art Plastics, meaning after the partners that you had suddenly died. You decided no longer… SPEAKER 1: No, he developed an ulcer, and he was advised not to return to work for a few months. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah, not him, but during your public accounting. SPEAKER 1: Oh. Well, I liquidated my company, public accounting practice, and couple of other CPAs in the area took the accounts over. INTERVIEWER: And then you continued with… SPEAKER 1: Then I stayed in plastics; I stayed in plastics and developed Art Plastics. And in 1960, we were paying rent in what they called in those days the old DuPont building. So we had an opportunity to buy a piece of real estate owned by the Borden Chemical Company at 75 Water Street in Leominster. And so we acquired that 24 property I believe in 1960. And so Art Plastics relocated and moved up to this new facility, and that's when I made all my decision that I'm gonna stay in the plastics business, liquidate my public accounting. It was around 1960 when we purchased the Art Plastics building on the Walter Street from the Borden Chemical Company. INTERVIEWER: Now 40 years later, are you in the same location? SPEAKER 1: Comes about it, I'm going back. That's a long circle around. So… SPEAKER 2: That building has always been Art Plastics and Cardinal Co. Then we have another building. But now, Art Plastics is back on 75 Water Street. Lots of stories in between. SPEAKER 1: Lots of stories in between. INTERVIEWER: Do you want to say all of them? Because we're up to 1960, so we might as well go on. SPEAKER 1: All right. So in the '60s we developed Art Plastics in custom molding. And I decided that, that we had culturally floral [unintelligible - 01:06:55] that we had, the trellises and things like that, were not developing the way I thought. And I was looking for a proprietary line to get into. So we had a lot of experience molding combs for the DuPont Company, the Tupperware Company, hangers and things like that, and also standard home products that we used to custom mold. So we had a background in molding combs. And Leominster is known as the combing city that it always had. They manufacture combs here. So I had an opportunity to employ somebody who was knowledgeable in comb business, so I decided to be in the comb business, and that was in 1969, that the first thing we did was we had a pocket comb mold built. That caught, let's say, 36-cavity 5-inch pocket comb, heavy-duty pocket comb that cost us $7,200. That was our first mold to go into the comb business. INTERVIEWER: And that cost you $7,200 for the mold?25 SPEAKER 1: For that one mold to introduce us. That was a very pro -- and that was a man's pocket comb. Every man has a pocket comb, a black pocket comb in those days, and it was a bread and butter entry to the business. So we started Cardinal Comb in 1969. Around 1970, there was a -- another company in Leominster that was involved in the comb business, and they have been in business two or three or four years. And they were faltering, and they were going out of business. So we acquired their machinery, molds and machinery. INTERVIEWER: Which business was that? Which company? What was the name of it? Can you remember? SPEAKER 1: They call it Rafaeli Plastics. Cardinal Comb acquired all the assets, the machinery, the equipment, the inventory, and the customer list… whom I was already doing business with. But that doesn't matter. So that was in 1999, we acquire Rafaeli Plastics. And after that, going through our line. INTERVIEWER: Were you the only company in the area producing combs? SPEAKER 1: No, we were not. We were a late entry. Probably a half a dozen other people making combs in Leominster, or at least I knew about. So we entered the comb business. INTERVIEWER: And what gave you the courage for that? SPEAKER 1: Well, I hired this person who had experience in sales in combs. I was -- I felt he could do well in the comb business. So during the '70s and '80s, our comb business grew. We had a machine shop, and we built our own molds. In those days it had the black and the [unintelligible - 01:10:52] movement. And so they were the new styles of combs coming in to the market, and molds have to be built. We had the facility, machine shop facility. We built many of our own molds, and it saved us considerable… INTERVIEWER: Who would make a decision like that? Is it something that you read about, knowing what kinds of combs are coming into style?26 SPEAKER 1: Well, we would go to trade shows. We would go to trade shows in New York, Chicago. And you could -- the trend was out there, there was a trend, and you could detect it. And what other people, what other competitors would do, they have a pulse for what the market wanted. And after that was happening in the '70s or '80s, comb business was changing. And people change styles along. They became sharp. For a while they have all these apple comb, shampoo comb, the big 9-inch comb with a handle on it. Normally they have a regular 9-inch dresser comb which was all comb. Half of the comb was fine teeth; the other half was coarse teeth. So the apple comb with the shampoo comb with coarse teeth with a handle on it. So we were probably one of the first to get in on that trend. And they have this list; they give you the afro look. And we were very involved with that. And at the same time, with the change in the style of combs, there was also a change in the color of combs. Because the comb industry, basically, that we started with, we only had about three colors of comb. You'll have black, baby pink, and baby blue. Those were the colors. So if we went to trade shows, and plastics, the new plastics resins coming in to the market where you could color, add all kinds of color very easily. So color became very important in the comb business. So we got in on that trend and started to make a lot of colors, and it's one of the ways I think that we expanded and kept up with the competition. INTERVIEWER: Is Art Plastics and Cardinal Combs two separate companies? SPEAKER 1: Yes. SPEAKER 2: Two separate corporations. Same people. SPEAKER 1: Yes. Two separate corporations. Common ownership. The family owns -- I actually took the beginning. The family, to mention, our family, owned Art Plastics and Cardinal Comb. My son didn't join me in the plastics business until probably 1980 or so. 27 SPEAKER 2: Because of college. INTERVIEWER: Two sons, or… SPEAKER 2: Two sons in the plastics business now. INTERVIEWER: But did they originally all work in the plastics? SPEAKER 1: No. I'll tell you a little story. But the important and interesting is -- so we started to develop these colors like yellow and fuchsia, strawberry and lime, all the different colors of a comb. So it was probably my son Edward -- when did get he out of college? SPEAKER 2: '82. SPEAKER 1: '82. Edward, the youngest of my three sons, joined me at Cardinal Comb, and he was in charge of production, scheduling. And he and I went to trade shows. And then my second son Anthony was working in Boston in public accounting. So at one point my son Anthony said, "Dad I'm gonna be joining Cardinal Comb," and I said, "Are you?" "Yes. Edward wants me to join the company. He said that we need some help." I said that's fine. Glad to hear it. And so Anthony joined the company around 1983, something like that. So then I decided, this is not all the heads that we're gonna have, so we really have to expand to cover Anthony's salary. And so we concentrated more on marketing. So I put Anthony in charge of sales and marketing. And so Anthony would go to the trade shows. And so he came back from one trade show after he's been with the company for a year or so, he said, "Dad, we have to have more colors. We just can't get by with just three or four. We have to have eight or nine different colors. And we can get more of the shares of the market." And so I called Edward in, I said "Edward, we're gonna increase the inventory line of combs from about four colors to about eight or nine." Edward said, "Over my dead body, Dad. I'm not ready to have any more different colors." So I had these two very strong individuals, strong personality, and I could say from my experience from public accounting, I had seen 28 collisions or difficulty come in to certain partnerships and family arrangements. And I sat back and said no, these two [unintelligible - 01:17:11] want to run the show. It can only have one person running an operation; I got to find another way. I got to separate these companies. So that's when I made the decision to purchase another company called St. John, which we renamed First Plastics. And then I put Edward in charge of that. And so each -- it is my decision or purpose or call, really, to have each one of my eldest boys run their own company, which they would run it completely and be responsible. And that would give them the incentive, too. If they did well, they'd be rewarded. So it worked out very well, I think. INTERVIEWER: So is Art Plastics also making combs? SPEAKER 2: No. Just molding. SPEAKER 1: No. First Plastics was strictly a custom molding operation. That had some customers. So we acquired First Plastics in 1987, '88. 1988. We actually acquired it. And we had a relationship of molding with them. When we purchased -- when we set up First Plastics, the name of the company was St. John, and that was owned by the [unintelligible - 01:18:48] family from [unintelligible - 01:18:55] Massachusetts. So we get custom molding for them, and they own it solely because they have to go into plastics to make their plastics and things like that. But after they go on a few years, it didn't work out well for them and they decided that they were going to get out of the plastics business, and that's when St. John was up for sale. And that's when we purchased the company. And they had some custom molding and customer list, small customer list that went a long way. So we set up First Plastics in a separate location down the [unintelligible - 01:19:36], and Edward became the president of First Plastics, and Anthony became the president of Cardinal Comb./AT/jf/kb/es

Publisher's version (útgefin grein) ; Background In an era of shifting global agendas and expanded emphasis on non-communicable diseases and injuries along with communicable diseases, sound evidence on trends by cause at the national level is essential. The Global Burden of Diseases, Injuries, and Risk Factors Study (GBD) provides a systematic scientific assessment of published, publicly available, and contributed data on incidence, prevalence, and mortality for a mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive list of diseases and injuries. Methods GBD estimates incidence, prevalence, mortality, years of life lost (YLLs), years lived with disability (YLDs), and disability-adjusted life-years (DALYs) due to 369 diseases and injuries, for two sexes, and for 204 countries and territories. Input data were extracted from censuses, household surveys, civil registration and vital statistics, disease registries, health service use, air pollution monitors, satellite imaging, disease notifications, and other sources. Cause-specific death rates and cause fractions were calculated using the Cause of Death Ensemble model and spatiotemporal Gaussian process regression. Cause-specific deaths were adjusted to match the total all-cause deaths calculated as part of the GBD population, fertility, and mortality estimates. Deaths were multiplied by standard life expectancy at each age to calculate YLLs. A Bayesian meta-regression modelling tool, DisMod-MR 2.1, was used to ensure consistency between incidence, prevalence, remission, excess mortality, and cause-specific mortality for most causes. Prevalence estimates were multiplied by disability weights for mutually exclusive sequelae of diseases and injuries to calculate YLDs. We considered results in the context of the Socio-demographic Index (SDI), a composite indicator of income per capita, years of schooling, and fertility rate in females younger than 25 years. Uncertainty intervals (UIs) were generated for every metric using the 25th and 975th ordered 1000 draw values of the posterior distribution. Findings Global health has steadily improved over the past 30 years as measured by age-standardised DALY rates. After taking into account population growth and ageing, the absolute number of DALYs has remained stable. Since 2010, the pace of decline in global age-standardised DALY rates has accelerated in age groups younger than 50 years compared with the 1990-2010 time period, with the greatest annualised rate of decline occurring in the 0-9-year age group. Six infectious diseases were among the top ten causes of DALYs in children younger than 10 years in 2019: lower respiratory infections (ranked second), diarrhoeal diseases (third), malaria (fifth), meningitis (sixth), whooping cough (ninth), and sexually transmitted infections (which, in this age group, is fully accounted for by congenital syphilis; ranked tenth). In adolescents aged 10-24 years, three injury causes were among the top causes of DALYs: road injuries (ranked first), self-harm (third), and interpersonal violence (fifth). Five of the causes that were in the top ten for ages 10-24 years were also in the top ten in the 25-49-year age group: road injuries (ranked first), HIV/AIDS (second), low back pain (fourth), headache disorders (fifth), and depressive disorders (sixth). In 2019, ischaemic heart disease and stroke were the top-ranked causes of DALYs in both the 50-74-year and 75-years-and-older age groups. Since 1990, there has been a marked shift towards a greater proportion of burden due to YLDs from non-communicable diseases and injuries. In 2019, there were 11 countries where non-communicable disease and injury YLDs constituted more than half of all disease burden. Decreases in age-standardised DALY rates have accelerated over the past decade in countries at the lower end of the SDI range, while improvements have started to stagnate or even reverse in countries with higher SDI. Interpretation As disability becomes an increasingly large component of disease burden and a larger component of health expenditure, greater research and development investment is needed to identify new, more effective intervention strategies. With a rapidly ageing global population, the demands on health services to deal with disabling outcomes, which increase with age, will require policy makers to anticipate these changes. The mix of universal and more geographically specific influences on health reinforces the need for regular reporting on population health in detail and by underlying cause to help decision makers to identify success stories of disease control to emulate, as well as opportunities to improve. Copyright (C) 2020 The Author(s). Published by Elsevier Ltd. ; Research reported in this publication was supported by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation; the University of Melbourne; Queensland Department of Health, Australia; the National Health and Medical Research Council, Australia; Public Health England; the Norwegian Institute of Public Health; St Jude Children's Research Hospital; the Cardiovascular Medical Research and Education Fund; the National Institute on Ageing of the National Institutes of Health (award P30AG047845); and the National Institute of Mental Health of the National Institutes of Health (award R01MH110163). The content is solely the responsibility of the authors and does not necessarily represent the official views of the funders. The authors alone are responsible for the views expressed in this Article and they do not necessarily represent the views, decisions, or policies of the institutions with which they are affiliated, the National Health Service (NHS), the National Institute for Health Research (NIHR), the UK Department of Health and Social Care, or Public Health England; the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), the US Government, or MEASURE Evaluation; or the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC). This research used data from the Chile National Health Survey 2003, 2009-10, and 2016-17. The authors are grateful to the Ministry of Health, the survey copyright owner, for allowing them to have the database. All results of the study are those of the authors and in no way committed to the Ministry. The Costa Rican Longevity and Healthy Aging Study project is a longitudinal study by the University of Costa Rica's Centro Centroamericano de Poblacion and Instituto de Investigaciones en Salud, in collaboration with the University of California at Berkeley. The original pre-1945 cohort was funded by the Wellcome Trust (grant 072406), and the 1945-55 Retirement Cohort was funded by the US National Institute on Aging (grant R01AG031716). The principal investigators are Luis Rosero-Bixby and William H Dow and co-principal investigators are Xinia Fernandez and Gilbert Brenes. The accuracy of the authors' statistical analysis and the findings they report are not the responsibility of ECDC. ECDC is not responsible for conclusions or opinions drawn from the data provided. ECDC is not responsible for the correctness of the data and for data management, data merging and data collation after provision of the data. ECDC shall not be held liable for improper or incorrect use of the data. The Health Behaviour in School-Aged Children (HBSC) study is an international study carried out in collaboration with WHO/EURO. The international coordinator of the 1997-98, 2001-02, 2005-06, and 2009-10 surveys was Candace Currie and the databank manager for the 1997-98 survey was Bente Wold, whereas for the following surveys Oddrun Samdal was the databank manager. A list of principal investigators in each country can be found on the HBSC website. Data used in this paper come from the 2009-10 Ghana Socioeconomic Panel Study Survey, which is a nationally representative survey of more than 5000 households in Ghana. The survey is a joint effort undertaken by the Institute of Statistical, Social and Economic Research (ISSER) at the University of Ghana and the Economic Growth Centre (EGC) at Yale University. It was funded by EGC. ISSER and the EGC are not responsible for the estimations reported by the analysts. The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics granted the researchers access to relevant data in accordance with license number SLN2014-3-170, after subjecting data to processing aiming to preserve the confidentiality of individual data in accordance with the General Statistics Law, 2000. The researchers are solely responsible for the conclusions and inferences drawn upon available data. Data for this research was provided by MEASURE Evaluation, funded by USAID. The authors thank the Russia Longitudinal Monitoring Survey, conducted by the National Research University Higher School of Economics and ZAO Demoscope together with Carolina Population Center, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the Institute of Sociology, Russia Academy of Sciences for making data available. This paper uses data from the Bhutan 2014 STEPS survey, implemented by the Ministry of Health with the support of WHO; the Kuwait 2006 and 2014 STEPS surveys, implemented by the Ministry of Health with the support of WHO; the Libya 2009 STEPS survey, implemented by the Secretariat of Health and Environment with the support of WHO; the Malawi 2009 STEPS survey, implemented by Ministry of Health with the support of WHO; and the Moldova 2013 STEPS survey, implemented by the Ministry of Health, the National Bureau of Statistics, and the National Center of Public Health with the support of WHO. This paper uses data from Survey of Health, Ageing and Retirement in Europe (SHARE) Waves 1 (DOI:10.6103/SHARE. w1.700), 2 (10.6103/SHARE.w2.700), 3 (10.6103/SHARE.w3.700), 4 (10.6103/SHARE.w4.700), 5 (10.6103/SHARE.w5.700), 6 (10.6103/SHARE.w6.700), and 7 (10.6103/SHARE.w7.700); see Borsch-Supan and colleagues (2013) for methodological details. The SHARE data collection has been funded by the European Commission through FP5 (QLK6-CT-2001-00360), FP6 (SHARE-I3: RII-CT-2006-062193, COMPARE: CIT5-CT-2005-028857, SHARELIFE: CIT4-CT-2006-028812), FP7 (SHARE-PREP: GA N degrees 211909, SHARE-LEAP: GA N degrees 227822, SHARE M4: GA N degrees 261982) and Horizon 2020 (SHARE-DEV3: GA N degrees 676536, SERISS: GA N degrees 654221) and by DG Employment, Social Affairs & Inclusion. Additional funding from the German Ministry of Education and Research, the Max Planck Society for the Advancement of Science, the US National Institute on Aging (U01_AG09740-13S2, P01_AG005842, P01_AG08291, P30_AG12815, R21_AG025169, Y1-AG-4553-01, IAG_BSR06-11, OGHA_04-064, HHSN271201300071C), and from various national funding sources is gratefully acknowledged. This study has been realised using the data collected by the Swiss Household Panel, which is based at the Swiss Centre of Expertise in the Social Sciences. The project is financed by the Swiss National Science Foundation. The United States Aging, Demographics, and Memory Study is a supplement to the Health and Retirement Study (HRS), which is sponsored by the National Institute of Aging (grant number NIA U01AG009740). It was conducted jointly by Duke University and the University of Michigan. The HRS is sponsored by the National Institute on Aging (grant number NIA U01AG009740) and is conducted by the University of Michigan. This paper uses data from Add Health, a program project designed by J Richard Udry, Peter S Bearman, and Kathleen Mullan Harris, and funded by a grant P01-HD31921 from the Eunice Kennedy Shriver National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, with cooperative funding from 17 other agencies. Special acknowledgment is due to Ronald R Rindfuss and Barbara Entwisle for assistance in the original design. Information on how to obtain the Add Health data files is available on the Add Health website. No direct support was received from grant P01-HD31921 for this analysis. The data reported here have been supplied by the United States Renal Data System. The interpretation and reporting of these data are the responsibility of the authors and in no way should be seen as an official policy or interpretation of the US Government. Collection of data for the Mozambique National Survey on the Causes of Death 2007-08 was made possible by USAID under the terms of cooperative agreement GPO-A-00-08-000_D3-00. This manuscript is based on data collected and shared by the International Vaccine Institute (IVI) from an original study IVI conducted. L G Abreu acknowledges support from Coordenacao de Aperfeicoamento de Pessoal de Nivel Superior (Brazil; finance code 001) and Conselho Nacional de Desenvolvimento Cientifico e Tecnologico (CNPq, a Brazilian funding agency). I N Ackerman was supported by a Victorian Health and Medical Research Fellowship awarded by the Victorian Government. O O Adetokunboh acknowledges the South African Department of Science and Innovation and the National Research Foundation. A Agrawal acknowledges the Wellcome Trust DBT India Alliance Senior Fellowship. S M Aljunid acknowledges the Department of Health Policy and Management, Faculty of Public Health, Kuwait University and International Centre for Casemix and Clinical Coding, Faculty of Medicine, National University of Malaysia for the approval and support to participate in this research project. M Ausloos, C Herteliu, and A Pana acknowledge partial support by a grant of the Romanian National Authority for Scientific Research and Innovation, CNDS-UEFISCDI, project number PN-III-P4-ID-PCCF-2016-0084. A Badawi is supported by the Public Health Agency of Canada. D A Bennett was supported by the NIHR Oxford Biomedical Research Centre. R Bourne acknowledges the Brien Holden Vision Institute, University of Heidelberg, Sightsavers, Fred Hollows Foundation, and Thea Foundation. G B Britton and I Moreno Velasquez were supported by the Sistema Nacional de Investigacion, SNI-SENACYT, Panama. R Buchbinder was supported by an Australian National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) Senior Principal Research Fellowship. J J Carrero was supported by the Swedish Research Council (2019-01059). F Carvalho acknowledges UID/MULTI/04378/2019 and UID/QUI/50006/2019 support with funding from FCT/MCTES through national funds. A R Chang was supported by National Institutes of Health/National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases grant K23 DK106515. V M Costa acknowledges the grant SFRH/BHD/110001/2015, received by Portuguese national funds through Fundacao para a Ciencia e Tecnologia, IP, under the Norma Transitaria DL57/2016/CP1334/CT0006. A Douiri acknowledges support and funding from the National Institute for Health Research Collaboration for Leadership in Applied Health Research and Care South London at King's College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust and the Royal College of Physicians, and support from the NIHR Biomedical Research Centre based at Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust and King's College London. B B Duncan acknowledges grants from the Foundation for the Support of Research of the State of Rio Grande do Sul (IATS and PrInt) and the Brazilian Ministry of Health. H E Erskine is the recipient of an Australian NHMRC Early Career Fellowship grant (APP1137969). A J Ferrari was supported by a NHMRC Early Career Fellowship grant (APP1121516). H E Erskine and A J Ferrari are employed by and A M Mantilla-Herrera and D F Santomauro affiliated with the Queensland Centre for Mental Health Research, which receives core funding from the Queensland Department of Health. M L Ferreira holds an NHMRC Research Fellowship. C Flohr was supported by the NIHR Biomedical Research Centre based at Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust. M Freitas acknowledges financial support from the EU (European Regional Development Fund [FEDER] funds through COMPETE POCI-01-0145-FEDER-029248) and National Funds (Fundacao para a Ciencia e Tecnologia) through project PTDC/NAN-MAT/29248/2017. A L S Guimaraes acknowledges support from CNPq. C Herteliu was partially supported by a grant co-funded by FEDER through Operational Competitiveness Program (project ID P_40_382). P Hoogar acknowledges Centre for Bio Cultural Studies, Directorate of Research, Manipal Academy of Higher Education and Centre for Holistic Development and Research, Kalaghatagi. F N Hugo acknowledges the Visiting Professorship, PRINT Program, CAPES Foundation, Brazil. B-F Hwang was supported by China Medical University (CMU107-Z-04), Taichung, Taiwan. S M S Islam was funded by a National Heart Foundation Senior Research Fellowship and supported by Deakin University. R Q Ivers was supported by a research fellowship from the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia. M Jakovljevic acknowledges the Serbian part of this GBD-related contribution was co-funded through Grant OI175014 of the Ministry of Education Science and Technological Development of the Republic of Serbia. P Jeemon was supported by a Clinical and Public Health intermediate fellowship (grant number IA/CPHI/14/1/501497) from the Wellcome Trust-Department of Biotechnology, India Alliance (2015-20). O John is a recipient of UIPA scholarship from University of New South Wales, Sydney. S V Katikireddi acknowledges funding from a NRS Senior Clinical Fellowship (SCAF/15/02), the Medical Research Council (MC_UU_12017/13, MC_UU_12017/15), and the Scottish Government Chief Scientist Office (SPHSU13, SPHSU15). C Kieling is a CNPq researcher and a UK Academy of Medical Sciences Newton Advanced Fellow. Y J Kim was supported by Research Management Office, Xiamen University Malaysia (XMUMRF/2018-C2/ITCM/00010). K Krishan is supported by UGC Centre of Advanced Study awarded to the Department of Anthropology, Panjab University, Chandigarh, India. M Kumar was supported by K43 TW 010716 FIC/NIMH. B Lacey acknowledges support from the NIHR Oxford Biomedical Research Centre and the BHF Centre of Research Excellence, Oxford. J V Lazarus was supported by a Spanish Ministry of Science, Innovation and Universities Miguel Servet grant (Instituto de Salud Carlos III [ISCIII]/ESF, the EU [CP18/00074]). K J Looker thanks the NIHR Health Protection Research Unit in Evaluation of Interventions at the University of Bristol, in partnership with Public Health England, for research support. S Lorkowski was funded by the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research (nutriCARD, grant agreement number 01EA1808A). R A Lyons is supported by Health Data Research UK (HDR-9006), which is funded by the UK Medical Research Council, Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, Economic and Social Research Council, NIHR (England), Chief Scientist Office of the Scottish Government Health and Social Care Directorates, Health and Social Care Research and Development Division (Welsh Government), Public Health Agency (Northern Ireland), British Heart Foundation, and Wellcome Trust. J J McGrath is supported by the Danish National Research Foundation (Niels Bohr Professorship), and the Queensland Health Department (via West Moreton HHS). P T N Memiah acknowledges support from CODESRIA. U O Mueller gratefully acknowledges funding by the German National Cohort Study BMBF grant number 01ER1801D. S Nomura acknowledges the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science, and Technology of Japan (18K10082). A Ortiz was supported by ISCIII PI19/00815, DTS18/00032, ISCIII-RETIC REDinREN RD016/0009 Fondos FEDER, FRIAT, Comunidad de Madrid B2017/BMD-3686 CIFRA2-CM. These funding sources had no role in the writing of the manuscript or the decision to submit it for publication. S B Patten was supported by the Cuthbertson & Fischer Chair in Pediatric Mental Health at the University of Calgary. G C Patton was supported by an aNHMRC Senior Principal Research Fellowship. M R Phillips was supported in part by the National Natural Science Foundation of China (NSFC, number 81371502 and 81761128031). A Raggi, D Sattin, and S Schiavolin were supported by grants from the Italian Ministry of Health (Ricerca Corrente, Fondazione Istituto Neurologico C Besta, Linea 4-Outcome Research: dagli Indicatori alle Raccomandazioni Cliniche). P Rathi and B Unnikrishnan acknowledge Kasturba Medical College, Mangalore, Manipal Academy of Higher Education, Manipal. A L P Ribeiro was supported by Brazilian National Research Council, CNPq, and the Minas Gerais State Research Agency, FAPEMIG. D C Ribeiro was supported by The Sir Charles Hercus Health Research Fellowship (#18/111) Health Research Council of New Zealand. D Ribeiro acknowledges financial support from the EU (FEDER funds through the Operational Competitiveness Program; POCI-01-0145-FEDER-029253). P S Sachdev acknowledges funding from the NHMRC of Australia Program Grant. A M Samy was supported by a fellowship from the Egyptian Fulbright Mission Program. M M Santric-Milicevic acknowledges the Ministry of Education, Science and Technological Development of the Republic of Serbia (contract number 175087). R Sarmiento-Suarez received institutional support from Applied and Environmental Sciences University (Bogota, Colombia) and ISCIII (Madrid, Spain). A E Schutte received support from the South African National Research Foundation SARChI Initiative (GUN 86895) and Medical Research Council. S T S Skou is currently funded by a grant from Region Zealand (Exercise First) and a grant from the European Research Council under the EU's Horizon 2020 research and innovation program (grant agreement number 801790). J B Soriano is funded by Centro de Investigacion en Red de Enfermedades Respiratorias, ISCIII. R Tabares-Seisdedos was supported in part by the national grant PI17/00719 from ISCIII-FEDER. N Taveira was partially supported by the European & Developing Countries Clinical Trials Partnership, the EU (LIFE project, reference RIA2016MC-1615). S Tyrovolas was supported by the Foundation for Education and European Culture, the Sara Borrell postdoctoral programme (reference number CD15/00019 from ISCIII-FEDER). S B Zaman received a scholarship from the Australian Government research training programme in support of his academic career. ; "Peer Reviewed"

The energy transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources is the next great challenge that the EU will face. One key concern is the transformation of the labour market. As we move away from fossil fuels, some polluting "brown" sectors, such as coal mining, will decline, affecting 3-10 per cent of jobs across the EU, but more than 20 per cent of jobs in certain regions.[1] The green transition will also be a source of new jobs: delivering on the EU's 2030 climate pledges could lead to a net increase of up to 884,000 jobs in climate-friendly and neutral sectors.[2] Other brown sectors, such as automotive, will transform.[3] The working-age population, however, will need training to tailor their existing skills to the requirements of the new or transformed jobs. According to a 2022 Special Eurobarometer, 38 per cent of respondents believe they lack the skills to support the green transition.[4] Reskilling and upskilling will thus be needed to prevent labour shortages in the future.
To bridge the gap between employers grappling with skill shortages and workers facing displacement, we propose to create training programs tailored to equip working-age citizens with the skills demanded by emerging sectors, which will help ensure a smooth transition. Policy action will be necessary to navigate this process effectively, fostering a fair transition and preventing potential political backlash. Proactively managing this transformation towards a green economy will contribute not only to creating pathways to employment but also to cultivating a more resilient and sustainable future for all EU citizens.The EU's Skills Agenda for 2025
In the face of these challenges, the EU is currently developing a framework to promote life-long learning and skills adaptation for the green transition. In 2020, the Commission announced a new Skills Agenda for 2020-2025,[5] which aimed to (i) obilise stakeholders to collaborate through a Pact for Skills; (ii) design a strategy to improve the matching of skills to jobs; (iii) support lifelong learning by promoting national actions and vocational and education training (VET); and (iv) foster financial investment. The targets set by the Skills Agenda for 2025 are summed up in Table 1. The Skills Agenda aligns with the European Pillar of Social Rights objectives and builds on the initiative to create an inclusive and resilient European Education Area. It has recently gained visibility following the European Year of Skills (EYS) 2023-2024, which raised awareness regarding lifelong learning.[6]

Table 1 | Skills Agenda for 2025 targets



Source: European Commission, European Skills Agenda for Sustainable Competitiveness, Social Fairness and Resilience, cit., p. 20.



Against this backdrop, the policies we recommend in the following could help reach the 2025 targets as well as unlock progress for the next Skills Pact to be drafted after the 2024 EU elections.Strengthening the EU's strategy for training: The Green Energy Erasmus Programme
The future workforce will face many challenges in these new employment conditions and therefore needs decisive support. To this end, the new Commission could propose a Green Energy Erasmus Programme (GEEP). This would entail mobility programmes tailored to apprentices in the energy sector so that young Europeans can be specifically trained for upcoming energy jobs.[7] In direct partnership with small and medium enterprises and other stakeholders, the GEEP would in parallel support transitioning industries in acquiring qualified workers. To make it profitable to all, a guaranteed minimum salary would be provided for apprentices, and organisations hosting them will benefit from tax breaks.
These new Erasmus opportunities should be available and tailored to students in VET programmes, which represented 8.5 million students in the EU in 2019.[8] As emphasised in the Council recommendation of 2020, VET is a key pillar of education and skills for the green transition.[9] However, research shows that students in VET programmes perform relatively worse than others in the skills needed for green jobs.[10] Therefore, the opportunity to complete work-based training abroad in the green sector through the GEEP would highly benefit their education.
To fund the GEEP, those public-private partnerships (PPPs) may be leveraged that, according to the European Training Foundation, already provide key support for VET centres. These types of partnerships enable all actors involved to contribute to the design of programmes and finance their development. PPPs for VET programmes are not only beneficial for students and training centres but also for private actors who have strong incentives to invest financially in them as they generate opportunities for growth.[11] Such instruments could be encouraged to fund the GEEP and ensure high-stakes collaboration between training centres and private actors in successfully teaching young generations green skills.Creating training opportunities that are accessible to all and for all
The EU's training programmes must be as inclusive as possible. The opportunities of the green transition must be shared more fairly by ensuring that groups currently underrepresented in green jobs, such as women and older adults, also take part in training.[12] In close collaboration with stakeholders defending the interests of these groups, more steps need to be taken to promote inclusivity. A few ideas to steer a more inclusive transition may include:
• Provide childcare services during training hours and minimum quotas. Women are underrepresented in energy-intensive industries. They account for 27.7 per cent of the workforce in the electricity sector and 22.2 per cent in transport.[13] The Skills Pact aims to increase women's participation in STEM fields by raising awareness, but the structural constraints that hinder women's participation in these sectors need to be addressed with concrete measures, such as free childcare services and minimum quotas for women.
• Remove barriers to entry through financial compensation for programme completion and flexible schedules. Whilst demand for skills training is increasing, studies show that worker participation in such programmes is below average, and low-skilled workers are more likely to find participation difficult.[14] Financial compensation would allow easier programme access to all working-age individuals by ensuring that time away from paid work does not pose a barrier to entry and compensates for potential wage gaps. Flexible schedules allow workers to train whilst continuing their current profession, hence making programmes more accessible to workers.
• Open up specific training programmes for adult and older workers. Adult workers require training focusing on particular skills, rather than participating in 'complete programmes'.[15] Specific training programmes tailored to their skills gap and oriented towards career guidance must be created in collaboration with businesses that know what skills are required. These programmes would optimally evaluate the green sectors where workers can most easily relocate with their existing skills, and provide focused training for those they still require.Targeting the right sectors and regions
The effectiveness of the proposed measures depends on the EU's ability to discern strategic sectors that will grow during the green transition. A study by the Clean Energy Technology Observatory (CETO) indicates that sectors such as heat pumps, biofuels, solar and wind energy are the most promising.[16]
More specifically, it is expected that most jobs in the solar industry will be created by the deployment of solar infrastructure and its installation.[17] For wind energy, manufacturing accounts for a greater share of new employment opportunities. Hence, training programmes and related measures must be focused first and foremost on these rapidly developing sectors and on the segments of the value chain most in need of a labour force.
A different but related issue is the relocation of jobs. Indeed, the impact of the energy transition on the labour market does and will vary across regions depending on the share of employment in brown industries and other dimensions of vulnerability and adaptability.[18] The loss of jobs could lead to emigration from the most affected regions, which in turn would exacerbate the regional differences within countries and the EU at large.
To prevent the decline of carbon-intensive regions and the mass relocation of working-age population, as well as potential political backlash, provisions must be introduced to ensure that new green jobs are created in the same areas where brown jobs are lost. In some of the most affected regions, the jobs lost in the coal mining sector could be replaced by new jobs in renewable energy production. One of the most affected regions, for example, is Greece's Western Macedonia region, where the coal mining industry employs an important share of workers.[19] This region is suitable for renewable energy production, and has already signed off on solar photovoltaic projects co-financed by the EU's Recovery and Resilience Facility to be implemented by the end of 2024.[20]
In those regions that are not similarly suitable for renewable production, the accompanying service industries could provide new jobs. This could be ensured through financial incentives, such as power purchasing agreements, infrastructure development, an enabling policy environment and support for R&D and innovation.Monitoring the programmes and assessing their performance
Continuous performance assessment is quintessential for green skills training since the employment market is set to evolve over time. Whilst some sectors require high-skilled workers today, they will need lower-skilled workers as they progress from the innovation and installation stages to maintenance. The success of any measures taken at the EU level is dependent on effective performance assessment to adapt programmes to the changes in skills requirements.
To this end, the Commission should be tasked with monitoring and evaluating the effects of these policies and present a report following their implementation to the European Parliament and the Council. This could happen in parallel with the report that the Commission is already responsible for regarding the assessment of the EYS.[21] The Commission's report should also be based on interviews and surveys with participants in training programmes and their employers.Funding the EU's reskilling programmes
When discussing the costs of reskilling programmes, it must be borne in mind that, as older workers are overrepresented in brown sectors, the main alternative to reskilling programmes is early retirement. However, early retirement raises significant financial issues for workers who will often not have saved up enough money to support themselves in retirement. The replacement rate of pensions, which expresses the percentage of income that is replaced by pensions upon retirement, is 68 per cent on average in the EU, but only 40 per cent and 59 per cent in Poland and Croatia respectively,[22] two of the countries with the highest rates of employment in brown industries in the EU.[23] These sudden drops in income would have severe consequences for the affected older workers.
Furthermore, a sudden increase in the number of pensioners would put a strain on the economy: due to the ageing of European societies, pension systems are already unsustainable in many EU countries, and the issue would be only aggravated by mass early retirement.[24] On the contrary, studies suggest that the majority of the skill characteristics of jobs in brown sectors could be transferred to green sector jobs:[25] therefore reskilled workers could reintegrate into the workforce relatively easily.
To be sure, the creation of training programmes will incur costs. The EU Skills Agenda, however, already outlines several funding opportunities.[26] Next Generation EU, the Recovery and Resilience Facility, the European Social Fund Plus, Erasmus+, as well as the European Regional Development Fund can support new measures for up- and reskilling programmes. Furthermore, the savings achieved through reskilling rather than relying heavily on early retirement could free up new funds previously allocated to pension systems, which could be redirected towards funding skill programmes as well.The manifold benefits of reskilling and upskilling
Our proposal aims to prevent political backlash against the green transition by ensuring a smooth and fair transition towards a green economy. Without policies to provide the working-age population with reskilling and upskilling training programmes, disruptions in the labour market, labour shortages in certain sectors and rising unemployment can be expected. These outcomes, in turn, would lead many citizens to lose trust in institutions and turn against the green transition.[27]
The up- and reskilling programmes outlined here would instead help displaced workers from brown industries reintegrate into the labour market. Through a Green Energy Erasmus Programme and inclusive training programmes targeting women, low-skilled and older workers, we would allow the most affected segments of the population to find employment in emerging sectors. This would serve the twin objectives of strengthening the EU's economy, preventing political backlash against the green transition and propelling the green transition forward.Marion Beaulieu is a Master student in European Affairs, specialised in Energy, Environment and Sustainability at Sciences Po Paris. Sára Kende is a Master student in a double degree between Sciences Po Paris (European Affairs, specialised in Energy, Environment and Sustainability) and Bocconi University (Politics and Policy Analysis).
This commentary is an updated version of the winning brief from the futurEU Competition 2024, hosted by the futurEU Initiative at the Hertie School and supported by the CIVICA Alliance.[1] Anneleen Vandeplas et al., "The Possible Implications of the Green Transition for the EU Labour Market", in European Economy Discussion Papers, No. 176 (December 2022), p. 15, https://data.europa.eu/doi/10.2765/583043.[2] Bertrand Piccard and Maroš Šefčovič, "Green Jobs and the Green Transition: A Long, Bumpy but Exciting Journey", in Euractiv, 17 November 2021, https://www.euractiv.com/?p=1674933.[3] Oya Celasun et al., "Cars and the Green Transition: Challenges and Opportunities for European Workers", in IMF Working Papers, No. 2023/116 (June 2023), https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2023/06/02/Cars-and-the-Green-Transition-Challenges-and-Opportunities-for-European-Workers-534091.[4] European Commission, Special Eurobarometer 527: Fairness Perceptions of the Green Transition. Report, 2022, p. 27, https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2672.[5] European Commission, European Skills Agenda for Sustainable Competitiveness, Social Fairness and Resilience (COM/2020/274), 1 July 2020, https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=celex:52020DC0274.[6] European Parliament, Report on the Proposal for a Decision of the European Parliament and of the Council on a European Year of Skills 2023, 9 February 2023, https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/A-9-2023-0028_EN.html.[7] Sofia Fernandes, "A Social Pact for the Energy Transition", in Thomas Pellerin-Carlin et al., Making the Energy Transition a European Success, Jacques Delors Institute Reports, September 2017, p. 148-211, https://institutdelors.eu/en/publications/making-the-energy-transition-a-european-success.[8] Javier Sanchez-Reaza et al., Making the European Green Deal Work for People. The Role of Human Development in the Green Transition, Washington, World Bank, 2023, http://hdl.handle.net/10986/39729.[9] Council of the European Union, Council Recommendation of 24 November 2020 on Vocational Education and Training (VET) for Sustainable Competitiveness, Social Fairness and Resilience, https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=celex:32020H1202(1).[10] Javier Sanchez-Reaza et al., Making the European Green Deal Work for People, cit., p. 63.[11] Veronica Vecchi, "Introduction", in European Training Foundation, Public-Private Partnerships for Skills Development: A Governance Perspective. Volume I: Thematic Overview, Publications Office of the EU, 2020, p. 9, https://data.europa.eu/doi/10.2816/422369.[12] Barbara Janta, Eliza Kritikos and Thibault Clack, "The Green Transition in the Labour Market: How to Ensure Equal Access to Green Skills across Education and Training Systems", in EENEE Analytical Reports, No. AR02/2022, https://data.europa.eu/doi/10.2766/563345.[13] European Commission, Employment and Social Developments in Europe 2023, Publications Office of the EU, July 2023, p. 54, https://data.europa.eu/doi/10.2767/089698.[14] Anneleen Vandeplas et al., "The Possible Implications of the Green Transition for the EU Labour Market", cit., p. 19-20.[15] Javier Sanchez-Reaza et al., Making the European Green Deal Work for People, cit., p. 115.[16] Aliki Georgakaki et al., "Clean Energy Technology Observatory: Overall Strategic Analysis of Clean Energy Technology in the European Union. 2023 Status Report", in JRC Technical Reports, 2023, https://data.europa.eu/doi/10.2760/150096.[17] Jannik Jansen, "When Europe Talks Climate, It Needs to Think Jobs", in Hertie School Policy Briefs, 6 December 2023, https://www.delorscentre.eu/en/publications/skilled-workers-in-the-green-transition.[18] Will McDowall et al., "Mapping Regional Vulnerability in Europe's Energy Transition: Development and Application of an Indicator to Assess Declining Employment in Four Carbon-Intensive Industries", in Climatic Change, Vol. 176, No. 2 (February 2023), Article 7, https://doi.org/10.1007/s10584-022-03478-w.[19] Ibid.[20] RWE, RWE and PPC to Build Solar Projects with More than 200 Megawatts in Greece, 26 January 2023, https://www.rwe.com/en/press/rwe-renewables/2023-01-26-rwe-and-ppc-to-build-solar-projects-with-more-than-200-megawatts-in-greece.[21] European Commission, Proposal for a Decision of the European Parliament and of the Council on a European Year of Skills 2023 (COM/2022/526), 12 October 2022, p. 18, https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=celex:52022PC0526.[22] OECD, Pensions at a Glance 2023. OECD and G20 Indicators, 2023, https://doi.org/10.1787/678055dd-en.[23] Anneleen Vandeplas et al., "The Possible Implications of the Green Transition for the EU Labour Market", cit.[24] Vincenzo Galasso, "Postponing Retirement: The Political Effect of Aging", in Journal of Public Economics, Vol. 92, No. 10-11 (October 2008), p. 2157-2169, DOI 10.1016/j.jpubeco.2008.04.012.[25] Anneleen Vandeplas et al., "The Possible Implications of the Green Transition for the EU Labour Market", cit.[26] European Commission, European Skills Agenda for Sustainable Competitiveness, Social Fairness and Resilience, cit.[27] Anneleen Vandeplas et al., "The Possible Implications of the Green Transition for the EU Labour Market", cit., p. 28.

Transcript of an oral history interview with W. Russell Todd conducted by Joseph Cates at the Sullivan Museum and History Center on May 16 and May 19, 2016, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project. W. Russell Todd graduated from Norwich University in 1950 and was president of the university from 1982 to 1992. In his interview, he discusses his thirty-two years of active duty in the U.S. Army as well as his experiences at Norwich University. ; 1 W. Russell Todd, NU '50, Oral History Interview Interviewed on May 16, 2016 and May 19, 2016 At Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Joseph Cates JOSEPH CATES: This is Joseph Cates. Today is May 16th, 2016. I'm interviewing General Russell Todd. This interview is taking place at the Sullivan Museum and History Center. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. OK, first tell me your full name. RUSSELL TODD: William Russell Todd. JC: When were you born? RT: I was born on the first day of May, 1928, in Seattle, Washington. JC: What Norwich class are you? RT: Class of 1950. My father was 26. My son was -- I'll think about that. JC: Well, we'll get back to that. Tell me about where you grew up and your childhood. RT: For the first year of my life we lived in Seattle, Washington. Dad had a job with a lumber company out there, getting experience to come back to work for his father, who ran a lumber company just outside Milton, Massachusetts. So I grew up for the first nine or ten years in Milton, Massachusetts, a very nice place, right on the edge of where Mattapan and Milton come together. There was a lot of traffic. Well, just for an example, during that period of time I came up with my dad to his fifteenth reunion, and the difference in traffic between where we lived and what we found up here was considerable. When I got back to school on Monday the teacher said, "Russell had a day off. He's now going to tell us what he saw." Well, nothing came to mind, and I stood and told them that I had seen something they had never seen, miles and miles and miles of dirt roads. Now I live on one. (laughs) JC: Was that the first time you were ever at Norwich? RT: Yeah. JC: What was your impression of it when you first saw it? RT: It was a very interesting period of time. It was just before World War II affected the United States, and many, many people were sending their sons to Norwich -- rather than perhaps better prepared schools -- because they could get a commission. They assumed that everyone was going to go to war, and the opportunity of getting an education and a commission together at the same time really appealed to a lot of people. Our football team got everybody we wanted of great quality. We won all the games in that time 2 frame. And we had some very, very fine people who came back in 1946, the year I entered the university, and they made a big impression on my life. JC: I'm sure. I assume the buildings were the same. There weren't any new buildings between the time that you went and -- RT: As a matter of fact it was 1941 I believe, and two buildings on the main parade ground were being dedicated. One wasn't quite finished, and the other was, and two new dormitories shows you an example of what I was saying, how it was a golden period in Norwich's history. But saying that, the opposite is true when the war ends. You remember that we had, what, 15 cadets come up here after the Civil War. They all got off the train, (laughs) yeah, we don't think much about that. It's happened each time there's been a war. The incentive, or the idea, or the concept of perhaps having to serve didn't appeal to a lot of people at the end of wars. JC: Right. You kind of have a boom before the war and a bust after the war. RT: Yeah. JC: What made you decide to come to Norwich? RT: I think probably that trip did, that and the fact my dad was always talking about it. He would make us on Saturday nights -- eating beans and franks -- to sing Norwich songs around the table. (laughs) JC: Do you remember any of those Norwich songs? RT: There's a good one. What is it? "Oh, My First Sergeant" "Oh, my first sergeant, he is the worst of them all. He gets us up in the morning before first call. It's fours right, fours left, and left foot into line. And then the dirty son of a buck, he gives us double time. Oh, it's home, boys, home. It's home we ought to be. Home, boys, home, in the land of liberty. And we'll all be back to Norwich when the sergeant calls the roll." JC: That's wonderful. (laughter) I've heard in some of the oral histories "On the Steps of Old Jackman," but I haven't heard that one before. (Todd laughs) So when you came here with your father, was that during homecoming? RT: Well, homecoming and graduation were the same period of time. It was fascinating to me. It was a cavalry school. They had all kinds of drills that we went to and watched, and prizes were awarded. People loading up the water-cooled submachine guns on horseback and racing around, then taking them down, and putting in ammunition blanks, and firing -- you know, first, second, and third prizes kind of thing. Oh, yeah, that impressed me. Then, of course, the parades were fun to see. But it took about three days to get through graduation and homecoming as a single entity. JC: When you came to Norwich what did you major in? 3 RT: That's an interesting story. As I said, Norwich was having trouble at that time recruiting people, and I got recruited by the president of the university. We met in Boston, and he asked me all the things I was interested in, and to him it looked like I should be an engineer, and he wanted me to take an exam that would carry that forward. Well, I took the exam, and I became an engineer, and about the first part of the second semester I discovered you really had to do the homework. I really didn't like that much, and I wasn't doing very well, so I changed my major to history and economics. I really found that fascinating. JC: Well, tell me about what it was like being a rook here. RT: Yeah, another interesting thing. I was sold on the rook system, and my dad had always talked about it. When he brought me up here, people would drop off their suitcases, and go right out onto the parade ground, and start being ordered around by the corporal. I thought that was great. I never seemed super. But I didn't have many followers on that. I was very anxious that my father leave, and get out of there, and go home, and I convinced him to do that. But after, oh, maybe a month the class, who had elected class officers by that time, called a class meeting, and we all got together -- I've forgotten where now. "We got to stop this. We got to tell these guys we're not going to put up with this nonsense. We've got to show our power." I stood up and said, "Gentlemen, this isn't what we want to do. We want to put up. We want to show him we can do it," and I got booed right off the stage. However, they eventually made me class secretary, so I didn't lose all my friends that day. (laughs) JC: Now let's talk about post-war Norwich, because you did say there's kind of a bust. There isn't as many people. RT: Yeah, I think we had 200 in our class, and there was no really classes of Bubbas. Norwich toward the end of the war, when they were really desperate to get money to pay salaries to the faculty, had a high-school level. I think it was two years, the high-school level, and many people went into that and came up here, and that toward the end made some income for the university. But what it did for us, as an incoming class of freshmen, we had our officers, lieutenants, who were younger than we were, but they'd been here two years. You know, that didn't sit over very well either. That was difficult. JC: And the cavalry was still here at that time. RT: It was, yeah, for the first two years of my term and tenure at Norwich, at that point. JC: What do you remember about the horse cavalry? RT: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Well, let's just put it this way. The first person I visited in Northfield when I came back as president was my old sergeant [Kenoyer?], who we hated. He was tough. But on the other hand, we really liked him, and I felt very, very sorry for him, and I really wanted to see him. His son had won entry into West Point, and 4 about two nights before he was to report in he and a bunch of his buddies were in an automobile accident. I think they were hit by a train and killed. Sergeant [Kenoyer?] was never the same after that. He continued to ride horses in the parades in Northfield and that kind of thing. But he was a character. His education was perhaps at the level he was working, taking care of the horses, and taking care of the riding. He was a good man, but, for example, I had a roommate named George Pappas who was scared to death of the horses, and some of the horses knew it. They knew when you were afraid. And old George would step into the stable area, ready to put on the harness, and that old horse would just back him into the wall and lean on him -- oh, you win. Then, of course, [Kenoyer?] would come by and say, "Kick him in the neb with your knee!" Well, no one was going to do that, trapped in there. So George, he decided that he would skip equitation classes, and instead he took 10 demerits for every single class that he was supposed to be at, and he spent his first semester walking around the parade ground on Saturdays carrying a rifle, doing tours. Many things can be said about George. That's a whole other story of absolute wonder. But it was difficult. We only went down once a week actually to use them, but there really wasn't a hell of lot you can learn in one-hour time once a week. But toward the end of the freshman year we were out trotting around in the neighborhoods, etc. I remember one time one of the captains in the Army ROTC program there, officers, Army officers, lead us on a parade, and we went out across the railroad tracks and up into the hills. And on the way back the horses got the idea they themselves would like to jog back to the stables, and we came charging down that hill totally out of control. Some of the horses and men went all the way to downtown before they came under it. I went through the football practice. (laughs) It wasn't everything it was cracked up to be. Now there were some people here, including a classmate by the name of Bob [Bacharat?] [00:13:18] who really was a polo player. He came from Switzerland. I think that's the reason he came to Norwich was to be able to play polo, and we played polo in that time frame with people like Miami who flew their horses up here. Now, I never saw the plane, but we were told all this and a few years earlier, before the war, that Norwich was playing the big colleges and winning. Toward the end of the first year we played something called broom polo, which they'd throw out a basketball on the floor, and then you'd have to hit it with a broom to get it to go to the goal. Those kinds of things were fun to watch. I remember one time George, my roommate, in skipping class went up into the stands, which are on the south end of the hall, but up above in a balcony, and he opened the window and got a snowball, several of them, and put them up there. When somebody would go by, the stove down on the floor -- there were four stoves in that place -- they'd get red hot, but they really didn't make a hell of a lot of difference when the temperature was 30 below or whatever it might have been outside. And the horses, when you'd take them from the stable to the riding hall, would fight you all the way; they didn't want to go out in that cold. But George, on one occasion, dropped snowballs on those red-hot stoves, and you can imagine, they hissed. As the horse went by, this great hiss came out, and the horse would throw the guy, or run for the far -- I went hell bent for election to the far wall. And when he stopped, I went right up onto his neck and was hanging on. Sergeant [Kenoyer?] came over and gave me hell, you know, "You didn't take control of that horse." (inaudible) [00:15:36] There are people lying down all 5 around, and the horses are running around. Well, there's a certain romance in having the horses, so long as you're sitting in the stands watching a polo game. (laughs) JC: Had you ever ridden a horse before? RT: No, never. JC: So you didn't have any experience with horses. RT: Neither did anybody else. Yeah, yeah. They were wonderful animals though, for the most part. JC: Now you said a lot of the people that were there before the war came back after the war to finish up. RT: Mm-hmm. A lot may be too much of an adjective to use, but Alumni Hall was essentially filled with non-married veterans, or veterans who hadn't brought their wives back. Civilian clothes and having nothing to do with the military. The rest of the dormitories were filled with 200 and whatever it was cadets, and the very few upperclassmen like the one I mentioned who came up through the high school route. We didn't have a lot to do with them, and they were very serious about their studies in the classrooms, very serious about their studies. The fraternization took place after the first of the year when we could go into a fraternity house, and I remember the older veterans -- older, 22 maybe -- who were in Theta Chi, where I was, were a remarkable bunch of people and very, very much appreciated. They didn't always come to dinner with us, but they were in the house and participated with it. They ranged all the way from a parachutist in Europe to a lieutenant colonel in the air force. So that's a big gap. But they were great guys who made fraternity life reasonable. JC: Well, tell me about Theta Chi. Why did you choose that one? RT: Oh, yeah, the same old story, the same reason I came here. My dad was a Theta Chi. Why, of course that's what I'd do. This is my father's fraternity, you know. JC: So what were the fraternities like? RT: They weren't too bad. When General Harmon eliminated them, I thought it was the right thing to do, because there weren't fraternities at other military colleges. And when they were started I really believe they were very useful. They were much more an eating club, and since there wasn't a mess in the university in the 1850s. If you look into some of the old records you'll see at graduation time they invited the alumni back to have dinner, and they had dances. They had inter-fraternity baseball and football, etc. We were trying at my time, in my fraternity, to replicate that. It wasn't perhaps as successful as it might have been. It was great fun to beat SigEp in baseball or something. But it was a different part of the university. I remember one time when I was a corporal, and one of the men in the rank under me, in the barracks, was in the fraternity. We get down to the fraternity, 6 and he would give me a hard time for giving him a hard time. It wasn't what I thought it should be, but it was a good time. I mean, don't misunderstand me. Well, it was a fraternity. (laughs) The girls came in by train, if they were away. Carol came up several times on a train to spring break, or a winter carnival, and that kind of thing. That was good sport to have a place where we could party. There was no drinking - baloney, there wasn't. (Coates laughs) I remember one time we were having lunch, and one of the seniors, one of the veterans that had come back, was the president of the house, and he said, "Our Theta Chi member on the faculty, old Professor Woodbury, is going to be our chaperone for the party. Does anybody know Professor Woodbury?" "I know Professor Woodbury. My father told me about him. I've met him once." He said, "Good. You and your date will sit in the living room with the Woodburys while we're down in the basement drinking." (laughter) It wasn't much fun that night. We had the bars hidden behind sliding doors, or doors that pulled down, and all this kind of stuff, so if we got word that there was someone from the faculty coming we could close it up and all sit down, smile, and look like there was no alcohol in the place. JC: Can you tell me a little bit about winter carnival and some of the dances that you all had? RT: They were good sport. Much of the fun though centered around the fraternity at that time. Yes, of course we went to the dance, etc., but before going to the dance we probably went to the fraternity, and certainly after the dance we went to the fraternity, and that was really good sport. In my senior year my roommate, Rollin S. Reiter, from Ohio decided that in his fraternity they were going to have a special Christmas party. Now, it didn't make an awful lot of sense, because it was right at exam time. We took exams right in that time frame, so he really had to work to get these guys. They were going to do it in tuxedoes, not in our uniforms, so that slowed it down a little, too. But one of the guys, Chubby Jordan, who has since passed away, he was a brigadier general in the Massachusetts National Guard later on, an ex-marine. He didn't want to go do it, so they convinced him that he had to do it, and they would get him a date. When he went to the fraternity house, he was introduced to the worst looking girl in the place, and he immediately started drinking beer and avoiding her and all this. It wasn't even the girl they were going to match him up with, and they just were teasing him something awful. When he got very sleepy they put him on the pool table, laid out flat like in a mortuary and put two lit candles, one at either end of him on the pool table. It was a sight for sore eyes. (laughs) JC: I bet it was. Now you were on the rook committee while you were there? RT: Yeah. In my sophomore year I was the head of the rook committee, elected by the class. During the summer period of time I had to get together with the printers and the university and go through this business. There were big posters that said "Beware, Rook, Beware," and then they listed all the things down. We'd get them printed up here by John Mazuzan down in the Northfield Press, and then we'd sell them to the rooks at $1 apiece. I don't know what we did with the money, in the class coffers I guess. Yeah. I remember that President Dodge, who had no military experience previous, but was a very, very well known scientist and had been the dean of one of the big Midwestern schools in that area, 7 he was brought in by some hefty people on the board of trustees. He didn't fit. He didn't understand us. He was a great academic and did some very fine things for the university. But he called me in one day, as head of the rook committee, and said, "When will this period end?" This was right after supper. I said to him, "Sir, it's very clear. It's right on the chart." He said, "I want it to end at Thanksgiving." I said, "Sir, I don't think you're talking to the right guy. You should really be talking to the commandant of cadets, your left-hand man." He said, "Well, I don't know if I can convince him," and I thought, oh, my God, what have we got here, you know. (laughter) He was a fine gentleman, but the minute it was possible for the alumni to discover that General Harmon might be available, in May of my senior year, Dodge was gone. The alumni just -- it wasn't working the way they wanted to see it work. JC: So Harmon was not president any of the time that you were here? RT: His inauguration was held at the same time as my graduation. It was one thing. He had been here for maybe a month, and I remember that we had a football banquet, and they invited General Harmon to come. And he stood up and told us all that he had been here as a cadet, and he had come back in 1935 as the commandant of cadets, and he loved and understood this university, and he was going to make it famous, you know, kind of, "Yeah!" Just the kind of story we needed. Then he told us a story that just curdled me. It was a dirty story. I'd never heard some guy stand up in a dinner and tell a dirty story. It sort of surprised me. He had that reputation. As a matter of fact, one time later in my career, when I was in the army, I was asked by my boss if I would go back to Hamilton, Massachusetts, where I had lived at one time and see Mrs. George Patton, and tell her that her son-in-law -- as a brigadier general -- was about to be sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky. He was married to one of Patton's daughters, and he is now a bachelor. I was to go with three sets of quarters' plans and say, "Which of these, General, would you choose, because we at Fort Knox can now get the house painted up and ready for you, and all this kind of stuff ahead of time?" Well, Mrs. Patton agreed. When the time actually came general orders was late in his itinerary and couldn't be there, so she said, "Why don't you and Carol just come to dinner, and we'll talk about this? I will pass your message to Johnny when he comes through next week, and your leave is over." So that was just fine. But we had a quiet period in that Mrs. Patton was at one end of a long table, and I was at the other end, and Carol was in the middle, and there was a little old maid with a bonnet on her head, and an apron moving around quietly around the room. Everything went silent, and I said, "I can handle this." I said to Mrs. Patton, "Mrs. Patton, do you happen to know General Harmon?" And she said, "Indeed, I do, Russell, and he's a very disgusting man." (laughter) Now as it turns out, she gave an award right after that, she gave an award at Norwich of a similar pistol of General Patton's famous (inaudible) [00:29:38] to the leading cadet. But she was clear. (laughter) JC: Yeah, I've heard stories about General Harmon. RT: He did a great job. He stayed too long, but he did a great job. 8 JC: Well, what clubs were you in when you were here at Norwich? RT: Yeah, I went out for football. I'd come from a little school in Wenham, Massachusetts, where we played six-man football, and if one guy was sick, it didn't look like we were going to play, you know, kind of thing. I went out for football in Beverly High School, and that was danger. I mean, I wasn't up to that. When we got to Norwich I said, "I'm going back out for football. This looks like --" They were mostly freshmen. There were some veterans that came back, and there were some very good veteran players who came back but weren't interested in playing football. They wanted to study and have a family life. So Norwich had a terrible football team during that period of time. About the second day of practice Joe Garrity, who'd been a friend of my dad's who I had known, put his arm on my shoulder as we walked back to the locker room and said, "I've got a job for you." And I thought to myself, I'm going to be quarterback for the freshman team. And he said, "You're my manager, how about that?" and I said, "Oh, OK." Later in life, when I became president, the alumni director here, Dave Whaley, took me out to visit various alumni clubs. In Chicago a fellow named Hale Lait, who played football and was co-captain in his senior year, started to walk up to us, and Dave says, "Mr. Lait, do you know General Todd?" Hale Lait says, "Shit, he used to wash my jock." (laughter) And it was true! We had a big laundry over there. JC: Were you in any other clubs while you were here? RT: Yeah, I'd have to think upon it. We had an international relations club that I became president of at some point of time under -- oh, come on, his name is skipping me. I'll come back to it. But we brought I people to speak on the issues, and then Norwich formed an alliance with the other colleges where we were all working together, and that was sort of fun working that out. Oh, incidentally, when I was manager for the freshman team I had to write all the letters to the other schools and make all the arrangements, all that kind of thing. It sort of surprised me that the university wasn't doing that; the athletic department wasn't doing that. JC: Did you have a favorite professor when you were here? RT: Yeah, and I just told you I couldn't remember his name. (laughter) Sidney Morse. JC: Oh, OK. RT: Old Sidney Morse was a terrible lecturer, but he was a genius, you know. He understood American history, and that was his forte, and he also was a wonderful human being and understood us. He really got me to dig in and start getting decent grades. He would lecture, but he would have side comments on this thing, and there we are taking notes left and right. I never wanted to miss a class under any circumstances. He invited some of us -- one of them being me -- over to dinner, and he was just a great sport. He was not a big man in stature, but a big man in intellect. JC: Was there a professor you particularly didn't like? 9 RT: Oh, there were some who I'd rather not name who I didn't appreciate or think that they were at the level they should be. JC: What was the favorite class you ever took here? RT: I guess it was history. That's what I worked at. Let me go back to what I didn't like. We lost -- somehow, I don't know how -- one of the economics professors, and President Dodge brought in somebody in mid-semester, and this guy had written many books and was well appreciated around the world, but he was terrible. He couldn't remember any names, he refused to take any attendance, so people didn't come. You could answer him back and forth. I was told, I can't vouch for this, I was told by the people that say they did it. They invited him out the night before his final exam to join them for dinner in Montpelier, and when the time came, they picked up the tip, and went down to the railroad station, and put him on a train going to Montreal. (laughter) I believe it was true. But he just wasn't accustomed to teaching at our level in that circumstance. He was someone that should have continued writing his books. He was essentially a sociologist, but that was a while. I got called in by the dean for skipping class, and the dean was a great guy at that time. I was a little embarrassed by it, but the class was mostly veterans in this particular -- in economics. You know, they had their way. They weren't required to come to class. If they didn't come to class it chalked up one of a series you could have freer, but cadets didn't have that, so I just played like I was a veteran to old Mumbles [McLeod?]. That's what they called him, Mumbles. When the dean called me in, I got right back on it. JC: Decided you'd rather go back to class. RT: Yeah. JC: Did you ever get in much trouble when you were here? RT: Not really. I came close a number of times. Well, let me go back and talk about Carol. Carol and I met one time when we were in about the ninth grade. She was in Beverly, Massachusetts, and we were living in Hamilton, Massachusetts, at the time, and the Congregation youth groups met at a third place, Essex, Massachusetts. There were lots of people of our ages. You know, these groups didn't know each other. And I spotted her. She was -- wow! Wow, yeah. But I never got to speak to her before we broke up and went back. A couple of years later in Beverly High School -- we'd moved to Wenham, and Wenham didn't have a high school, so I went to Beverly High School. Todd with a T and Wyeth with W happened to have lockers opposite each other on the wall, and I said, "My God, there's that girl." I went over and spoke to her, and she invited me to her birthday party, and that'll show it all started with us. But it came to a point in our sophomore year when I had changed from engineering into history and economics. I had to make up some subject material that I didn't get in the first part, and I went to the University of New Hampshire trying to make it up. I went down on the weekend to her house in Beverly, and I stayed with her aunt 10 who lived next door. She was on my team. But Carol when we were -- she said, "Let's stop this tennis game for a minute. I want to talk to you." We walked up to the net, and she said, "You know, I'm through with this relationship. You're never going to be serious about anything you do in your life; you're going to be a perennial sophomore. I want to do more with my life than you are going to do, and this isn't going to work out." OK, I'll show you. I came back and studied like hell for the last two years I was here and sort of caught up. But it was interesting, when I was invited back at graduation time to be the officer who commissions everybody, and at that time the university ordered a master's or a PhD, you know, honorary to the speaker. Loring Hart didn't tell me whether I was supposed to say anything or not, so I had in my pocket a little thing I would say. It went something like this. It is indeed an honor to be here. I represent my classmates in this ceremony, and I'm very proud of the way Norwich is moving. But I would like you to know that 25 years ago, this very day, I received a letter from the committee on academic degrees and standings that read to this effect: "Dear Cadet Todd, The committee has met and has agreed to allow you to graduate (laughs) based on the circumstances that were not your fault." (laughter) So, you know, that's the way life went for me. I dug in and did relatively well. But another interesting thing about that. I don't know about anybody else, but I had a picture in my mind of VMI, and the Citadel, and all these places as being superior to Norwich in their military training, etc. But when I got in the army I discovered that 50% of them were duds, and it just changed my life around and my feelings about my institution. Yeah, it was strange. JC: When you graduated from Norwich what was the first -- you went into the army. RT: Yeah. JC: Did you go straightaway into the army, or was there a period? RT: Well, some of us -- I think it was 12, maybe as many as 15 -- received an opportunity to go into the regular army, not into the reserve army. I was one of those. About half of my classmates who were given that ability to do that chose not to do it, so there were a number of us that went. Upon graduation we received our commission in the United States Army Reserve, and then two weeks later I was brought into the regular army with another commissioning thing, which happened to be by my father's Norwich roommate, Colonel [Rice?] in Boston. He was running something in Boston for the army at the time. That was sort of fun. Then I went immediately off. We graduated about 15 or 17 May or something, June rather. On the second day of July, I reported in to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment Light at Fort Meade, Maryland, as one of these people you had a regular army commission. So there wasn't any time -- there was time enough in between that the family all went down to Cape Cod for a two-week vacation, but I graduated and went into the army. JC: Now did you get married before you were in the army? 11 RT: No, no. No, no. I was still trying to get back in Carol's good graces. Before I left -- well, I went, as I said, to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. Now the army was doing something really stupid at that time. They had been told to reduce the army's personnel requirements, and rather than reducing in any reasonable way, they chose to take one-third of every squad, one-third of every company, one-third of every battalion, one-third of every regiment. It was a paper army. It couldn't really operate well at all. But when the war broke out in Korea they took from those drawn-down forces and sent them over as individual replacements, supposedly to go into units that also had the same kind of vacancy that was created now. So we had almost no reasonable training while I was in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment before going to Korea, and these people went into units for which they were not trained. The army was really messed up, really messed up. General Abrams one time in discussing this with a group of officers, after he'd become chief of staff of the army, had tears running down his face. "No army should ever do that to its people. There is no excuse for it, and as long as I'm chief of staff I guarantee you that our units will be ready to fight, if we have to fight." You know, oh. It was a terrible mess over there. So before leaving that unit in which I had a miserable career for that short period of time. For example, it wasn't two weeks later that the post's military police battalion left Fort Meade and went to Korea. Company A of my organization, of which I was a lieutenant, became the post's military policemen. Now, we know nothing about being the post's military policemen, not a thing. There wasn't anything in ROTC, there wasn't anything that lead us to believe. What I knew about policing was I'd seen in movies, and I hid behind the "Welcome to Fort Meade" sign in my sedan, and chased down someone that was speeding, and discovered it was the chief of staff of the post. At midnight I went over and had a bed check in the post's prison, to see that there weren't any knives in there. But I got called in and said, "Hey, come on, get off it. You can go to jail for what you're doing," you know. (laughs) It was crazy. I was trying to do my job as I knew it, but no one was there to supervise me in any way. JC: And how long were you doing that? RT: I left there in September. I went in in July, left in September, and got to Korea in late November, first having leave and then going to the West Coast, going through the checks and balances of travel over there. Just about that time MacArthur announced that the war would be over by Christmas, and as a result the army slowed down the number of replacements they were sending over. This was just about the time that the marines invaded Inchon, and it was followed up with the 7th Division behind them, and trapped the North Vietnamese soldiers below us. It was really a magnificent maneuver. So we were just sitting around in California waiting to get orders. Every weekend we'd go into town, and we'd go into some bar and then talk out loud about how we've got to go, and waiting to go to war, this kind of thing. Somebody would pick up the bar tab. (laughs) Then we crossed the Pacific during a hurricane, and that was something most unusual, as you might imagine. The piano broke loose in the lounge. It had been a troop transport in World War II, and they converted it to be a troop ship but for families to go to Japan or other places. At that time these ships were the property of the army, it wasn't the navy. 12 I remember distinctly there was a captain on board, mostly lieutenants, but this captain on board was a ranger, and he'd a big, puffed-up chest, and walked among us, and told us to stand up straight, and "Take your hands out of your pockets." When he'd get tired of doing that he decided we should have bayonet drill, and issued the bayonets, put them on our rifles, and went up on the deck. Oh, God. I said, "I'm not playing this game." There was a ladder still going up the funnel, in wartime where they had a station to look for submarines, OK. I went up there while everybody else was screaming and hollering down below and got away with it. It's a wonder I ever went anywhere in the army. (laughs) JC: So what was Korea like? RT: Well, let me describe it. We arrived the day before Thanksgiving in Inchon, got off the boat. There was a long, long tidal process; the ship couldn't get close to the docks or anything else. So they threw the nets over the side, and we were to go over the side of the ship and climb down into a small boat to go in. But we had all our personal gear with us. We were carrying great bags of stuff. I had two bottles of whiskey in my bag, and some damn fool says, "Drop your bag into the boat." I did. (laughs) But as a matter of fact, they took our uniforms away from us at that time and said, "We will hold them here, because if everybody goes home at Christmas it won't affect you for a while, and you'll be in a regular army uniform." But we got on the boats and went on the shore. They fed us what was left over from the Thanksgiving dinner, and a lot of canned fruits, put us on a train, and sent us up to North Korea. Each of us, each lieutenant, was on an open freight car, you know, enclosed but with doors on both sides, and each one of them had a little stove in it. It was cold, and we headed north, and every time the hospital train came south on that one track we would pull over maybe an hour before it came by, and then stick around and get back onto the thing. In my one car I had 27 people. Those cars were small. They were Japanese-style freight cars, and they were small. We had nothing but straw on the floor and a sleeping bag, but it was a summer sleeping bag, not a winter sleeping bag, and the stove didn't really heat the thing at all. There were slots in the side of the thing. Anyway. We didn't have any ammunition, and we would get shot at on the train. Now, nobody I know of got hit, but it made quite an impression. But still they didn't issue us any ammunition. There was a major in charge, and he was in the last car, which was a caboose kind of car, tight, a good stove, etc., etc. So whenever the train stopped we as lieutenants would run back and sit in his car with him and then take off again. Many of the soldiers would get off and run in to find somebody in the little town we stopped in and buy rot-gut whiskey. Boy, they were in trouble. One of the people in the car behind me, I was told, went blind on the spot. Maybe he was cured later, but it made an impression. We finally got to the capital of Pyongyang, and they put us on trucks and took us to what used to be a hospital. We went on about the fourth floor and were on cots, or on the floor, kind of thing, and at midnight that night some captain in the army came in and said, "OK, everybody out. Get down on the truck below. Let's go. Get your gear together." Well, we all didn't get there first, and the last of us were turned around and sent back. That batch was never heard from again. The next morning we were loaded on trucks and sent up. But before going they fed us a good breakfast. We went down into 13 the basement of this place -- it was steaming and dark down there -- and we had breakfast on some slate or granite tables. Steam is pouring out of the coffee pots, etc., and I filled my cup with coffee and took a big drink to discover that it was maple syrup. I went forward that day sick as a dog, sitting at the end, at the tail of that truck yurking all the way. I'm sure all those men I was traveling with, "Look hey there, look at that lieutenant. He's so scared he's puking," you know. We went on and eventually we came to a stop, and the captain who was leading this convoy came back and told us to get off the trucks and go into these schoolhouses that were available, right immediately, I mean, just saw them and said, "Take them." We went into the schoolhouse, and he turned around and went back to get "another load," quote, unquote. We never saw him again; he never came back. Here we are with no ammunition, carrying guns, living in a schoolhouse, and the Chinese are moving in on us. They were moving down the mountains on both sides of this thing, and then there was a tremendous, tremendous loss of life up the mountain further, coming toward us. The 38th Regiment that I joined after we got out -- I get the men out, and then I jumped on a mess truck headed south, all trying to find where the headquarters for the 38th Regiment was. The 38th Regiment was part of the 2nd Division, and it lost in about two days, coming through a real tight trap -- there was a river, there was a road that wasn't wide enough for two tanks to pass, and then there was a mountain again on the other side, and the Chinese are up on both sides just raking the convoy. One truck stops, you know, they've got to push it off the edge to get the convoy going again. Now I wasn't a part of that, but I joined the company that did, and when I finally caught up with my unit, it was because I had stopped in from the schoolhouse when I saw the 1st Cavalry Division people pull on in close to us, so I went over and inquired. I walked into the TOC, the tactical operation center, and there was a major sitting in front of a map, on a stool, making little marks on it. I waited a while, and he didn't notice me, and finally I said, "Sir, could you tell me where the 38th Regiment is?" and he turned around and said, "No, but where's the division? Where is the 2nd Division?" I said, "Sir, I have no idea. We're trying to find it. We were left off down here." He said, "I don't know where they are. If you --" It was that confusing. They lost something like 4,000 men coming out of that gap. Now, I wasn't affected, not at all, in any way. I was scared to death at times, but then after that I joined the 38th Regiment. When I went in to meet Colonel Pappal -- yeah, something like that -- he shook hands with one, and passed me a bottle of whiskey with the other one, and said, "Son, you're going to need this." I reported in to the battalion commander, and he at the time was meeting with his staff in a little hutch where the Vietnamese -- the Vietnamese -- the Koreans built their houses of mud and mud brick, and they would cook in an open room attached to the house, and the smoke would go under the floors and heat the house. We were sitting on one of those floors, warm and toasty, and they were passing the bottle of whiskey around this circle as we talked about (inaudible) [00:59:47]. By that time the bottle of whiskey got pretty hot. (laughs) It was a very strange circumstance. When he finally got to it, the battalion commander said to me, he said, "Todd, you're going down to A Company." I said, "Sir, and who commands A Company?" He said, "You do." I had about as much opportunity to learn infantry tactics and lead a rifle 14 company as nobody at all. My buddy who I was traveling with who had some experience in World War II in combat in Europe, came back and went to the University of Illinois, and then came into the army the same as I did, through the (inaudible) [01:00:34], he was sent down to a company that already had an experienced commander. You know. Nobody was thinking. I sent the first sergeant back to division headquarters, he got commissioned, and he came back, and essentially he told me what we ought to be doing. Then we did it. Until MacArthur issued an order, that probably came to him to do it, that said all armored officers that had been assigned to infantry units are to be returned to armored units. So I went down to the regimental tank company of the regiment where my company commander, before coming over there, was an infantry officer who was aide to camp to the commanding general who gave him the tank company in the 38th regiment who didn't know a damn thing about tanks. It was really screwed up everywhere. At a point when I was running the rifle company, I was told that a replacement was on the way, flying in, and he would replace me as company commander. Oh, great, that's good news. The guy showed up, and during World War II he had been in the air force as a bombardier. He had absolutely no infantry experience. He had joined the nearest reserve unit to his home when he was discharged. It really wasn't working out. Where we got replacements, the adjutant would go down and say, "Has anybody been through armored training?" Nobody. Nobody. So there wasn't anybody to send to the armored company except the people that came in (inaudible) [01:02:41]. So we were training these guys, but we weren't -- there were some old sergeants that really knew what they were doing, and that's we made. We eventually had a pretty good tank company. I remember my sergeant was a gruff, old son of a bitch. I walked up to a formation he was holding one day, and his back was to me, and I was walking toward the platoon. And I heard him say "The kid says we got to --" I said uh-oh. "Sergeant [Beach?], come with me," and we went in to see the company commander. I told the company commander that I couldn't resolve this one. He said, oh, very well, I'll assign someone else." Sergeant [Beach?] remained behind. Wow, I've done it. Sergeant Beach comes out. I said, "What happening Sergeant?" and he said, "I'm going to be the lieutenant in charge of the other platoon." Ahhh, God, you know. (laughs) It just wasn't the army I knew later on. Yeah. It was a very sad arrangement. It really wasn't until General Walker was killed in a jeep accident, and he was the 8th Army commander, and they sent General Van Fleet over to run it, and we by that time had moved 125 miles to the rear. We were running as an army. Word got out very quickly that General Van Fleet's orders were "I don't want to see your plans of defense, I want to see your plans of attack." And everyone says, "Sure, sure, General. You look at them, and you'll be all alone up there." Well, by God, he took that army and straightened it out and moved it forward and stopped the Chinese, without much additional support. It was amazing to see that happen. I'll never forget that, that one man deciding that he's going to turn the army around and you'd better fall in line. I did have one experience before that happened when I was with the tank company, and I was in a jeep riding down a road, and the division commander had decided that since we had all these losses, and we're all screwed up, that he had a way to make us all feel proud of ourselves and identify. The methodology he used was that one regiment would have a mustache, another regiment would have sideburns, and another 15 would have goatees. Crazy, just crazy. But I'm driving down the road, and an assistant division commander, a one star, is coming this way, and he went right by, and I saluted, and then he stopped and hollered back at me. I jumped out and ran down to his jeep. He said, "You're not obeying the division commander's orders." I said, "Sir, what do you mean?" He said, "You shaved." I said, "No, sir, I've never shaved." (laughter) God. Yeah. But General Van Fleet really pulled that into order, and he relieved a lot of people. He relieved my brigade commander, gave us a lieutenant to be the colonel's slot in the brigade, who turned out to wind up with four stars in the end. They made the mechanism work. JC: Amazing. Now, you were awarded the Medal for Valor in Korea, weren't you? RT: Yeah. I got a Bronze Star for Valor and a Silver Star for Valor, neither of which I really want to talk about much. I think somebody else would have done better to have them than me. I mean, I was pleased, happy to receive it, proud to wear it on my uniform kind of thing, but there was a lot of that going on to bolster up morale of everybody. JC: Is there anything else you want to say about Korea? RT: I don't know. At the end it was a pretty good experience. When we had gone into a stalemate, we started a rotation system back to the United States, and it was a point system. If you came within a certain period of time, then you could go back at a date specific, so we all knew when we'd be going back. There were points for the kind of job you had and all this kind of thing. It was interesting, I went back to Japan, spent a few days in Japan. When we got on the boat I was assigned -- as I had on the way over -- to a large stateroom, and I think there were 12 of us in it, and up and down cots. It was the same gang I went over with. You know, the timeline of where you engaged in combat were the same for all of us, in different units, and that was really pretty special. Two of them, only two of them, didn't come back, and they were both infantry officers. To the best of my knowledge, from the 38th Regiment that I was familiar with, the lieutenants didn't go back whole. The majority of them were killed. Those that were wounded were wounded seriously enough that they didn't come back to the unit. So it was us armored guys that, essentially, came back together, went over together and came back together. Stopped in Hawaii on the way back, pulled into the port, and there's all these hula girls down on the thing, people with big signs, "Welcome Home, Veteran." I said, "Hell, I'm not a veteran. That's a guy that sits outside the post office trying to sell pencils." (laughs) That came as a bit of a shock to us. But, yeah. JC: Well, once you got back to the United States where were you stationed? RT: Before I got back to the United States, on R&R in Japan, I knew of my rotation date. I called Carol, who by that time had finished her year after Smith at Radcliffe, taking the first year of the Harvard Business School program at Radcliffe -- business school faculty, business school-devised location, Radcliffe. I called her and said, "How about meeting me in New York City on such and such a date at the Biltmore Hotel? We'll meet under the clock." Now, meeting under the clock, there'd been a movie about that whole 16 business. So she did, and we went to my family's house. They'd moved to Scarsdale, New York, at that point. I asked her to marry me. She said, "Give me a couple of weeks." So I went back to visit my family. They're not my immediate family, my grandparents in Quincy, Massachusetts, and my other grandparents in Dorchester, Massachusetts. I went to -- my uncle, my mother's brother, ran a hardware store that had originally been his father's, and he said, "What are you going to do about a car?" I said, "I got to get one." I sold my car before I went over. He said, "Well, I've got a good friend who's honest, and I think we can get a good car." So I went over that afternoon and bought a car and called Carol, and I said, "I bought a car today." She said, "A convertible?" and I said, "Yes," and turned it in the next day and got a convertible. (laughter) I'd do anything to make sure she's sweet. She said yes, we were married on the nineteenth of June of that year, and she obviously had to quit her job to become an army wife. JC: So where did you all go after that? RT: The first station when we returned, and I'm talking now about the same group of army officers that went over and came back together, also went to Fort Knox, and we lived in newly-built quarters that were built by a civilian contractor on the edge of there, which were great for a newly-married couple, but they certainly weren't anything special. George and Joanne Patton lived next door to us, a small world, yeah. I've lost my train of thought here now. (break in audio) JC: And we'll get back started. All right, so we were talking about Fort Knox. RT: Fort Knox being a first assignment together in the army was really great. So different. I mean, Fort Knox was organized. Everything was working well. People were happy. Not that we weren't working hard, because we really were. My first assignment was to a training division. It took the number of the division, the third, and replicated it and then trained, basic training. I was in the 2nd Brigade headquarters working on the planning and that kind of thing. I really was disappointed that I wasn't one of the company commanders, but it turns out that that was a tough job. In the tank company, the guy that headed the tank company had more tanks than a tank division, and it was a mess to keep them all straightened out and going around. So one day I went back home for lunch, and Mrs. George Patton, Sr., was sitting in the living room of our house talking to Carol. She had come down to Fort Knox because George and Joanne had just been married, and Joanne got some kind of disease when they were on the honeymoon in the Caribbean. And I reintroduced myself to Mrs. Patton, and we sat down and talked. She asked me what my job was, and I told her. I said, "But I've got to go. I've got an appointment this afternoon to see the commanding general. They're looking for an aide to camp to the commanding general, and I really don't want that job. I really would prefer to get an opportunity to command a company in the division here." She said, "Russell, General Collier is a very, very fine man. He has a 17 fine family life. He is a very, very successful soldier who commanded the 2nd Armored Division at the end of the war in Berlin. You could learn an awful lot working for him." So I went over, and I got the job, and for the next two years I was the junior aide to the commanding general. I did such things as travel with him when he went to different places for different purposes. My buddies all got a hold of me when they found out I was going to do this job, and all had things they wanted changed at Fort Knox, and I was to be their agent in telling the commanding general how he could change the place. Very early on we went out of the headquarters, down the steps, into the car, went past the post theater. I thought, well, here goes. I said, "Sir, do you realize that on this post now an officer must be in his full dress uniform in order to go to the movies?" He said, "Yes, I know that, and it will remain that way." I didn't have many new ideas for him after that. (laughs) He'd go over to the armor school, and the people that are teaching in the combat kinds of business would say, "This is what we're doing now, General, and what do you think? We'd like your approval of it," and I'd sit in the back of the room and listen to what was going on, and understand it. I would hear the people that had served in combat talk about what you ought to do, and I got a great education. Also, every year there was something called the Armor Warfighting Conference. Twice I was there for that. They bring in all the people that belong to the Armor Association, or were serving in an armored position, all the senior people, and they'd talk about what the army ought to be doing in armor. One of my jobs was to go into the airport in the general's big sedan and his chauffer and pick these guys up and drive them back to the post, and I'd chat with these guys, and it was really fun. I got to know an awful lot of people, army commanders, army staff members, and all this. I really felt pretty special that I'd had this kind of an opportunity. Then we also had at Fort Knox in that time frame an armor board. This armor board, when General I. D. White was the commander at Fort Knox -- before General Collier -- that the chief of staff of the army was not pleased with the way the chief of ordnance was managing the tank program and gave the responsibility to the commanding general at Fort Knox. All the bigwigs gathered at Fort Knox to make decisions about what the next tank would look like, what the next armored personnel carrier would look like, etc., etc. Again, I sat in the back of the room, and young captains and majors, most of them West Point graduates who'd gone off to graduate school and were coming back and using their talents. It was a great, great opportunity for me. We were always invited to the house when the Colliers were having a party, and people would say, "Oh, you're going over there and pass the cigarette butts around with them, aren't you?" "No, we don't do that. We're part of that group." Mike Popowski here in town, his dad was one of those colonels on the post at that time. I really got to know all those people. Not that it was doing me any good, but I learned from them, you know. I learned how to act, I learned when to shut up. It was very useful, and it was a great time. The Colliers were magnificent to us. We had a child while we were living there -- it was Tom, and Tom got burnt badly in an accident at our house. He was crawling across the floor, and there was a coffee pot that started percolating, and he looked up and pulled on the cord, and it came over and broke open on his back. The Colliers came over and relieved us of our 24-hour duty, and they took it over; they sat with that baby. We were their family. It was amazing; it was wonderful. 18 Yeah. I began to really understand what the army was about, that it could be a good army. JC: Well, after Fort Knox where did you go? RT: Let's see. Oh, yeah. When General Collier left, he was to be promoted and going to go to Korea, and he offered me the opportunity to go with him, and I told him that I would much prefer to have a tank company in Europe. While I loved the guy and his family, I wanted a tank company in Europe. He said, "We'll take care of that," and he called up the commanding general of the 2nd Armored Division in Europe, the one that they call Chubby Doan, and told him the situation and that I would be on orders to go over to the 2nd Armored Division and a tank company. He said, "I'll give him a tank company." So, wow! You know, we made it, and off we go to Europe. We pull into Bremerhaven, which is the northern port in Germany, and they send forth a little craft to meet the boat. A sergeant first class climbs up the rope ladder and comes over and starts telling people what their orders are going to be, and I was ordered to something called the 13th Military Intelligence Group. I thought, oh, my God, something's wrong here. The colonel who was in charge of us all on the boat, for the boat trip, he got his orders, and he opened it up, and it's the 13th MIG. He said, "What's an MIG?" I said, "The best I know it's a Russian airplane." (laughs) It turned out that he thought he was going to the 1st Infantry Division for a regiment. Well, we got off the boat, and both of us went down to this intelligence group, went through two different fences, guards posted in towers and all the rest of it, and slept in an open bay area over the officers' club. There were a number of other offices there, and they said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "I don't know. I'm here by mistake. I'm headed to the 2nd Armored Division." They said, "No, no, you aren't. We're all in the same business, fellow. Tell us where you're going." And I said, "No, no. I'm an officer, and I'm going to --" They said, "We understood an armored officer was coming, and he was going to go underground and behind the Iron Curtain, and report on the Russian movements." Holy Crow! That's not for me. So the next morning I went down and asked authority to see the commanding officer of the 513th [sic] MIG. He spoke with me, and he said, "No, you're going down. You're not going to do that; that's rumor. You're going down to the headquarters in Heidelberg, and you're going to be an intelligence officer in that headquarters." I said, "I'm not an intelligence officer." He said, "That's your orders." OK. So I went down to Heidelberg. General Jim Phillips was the G2 at the time, and I asked to see him, and I went right up to his office and told him my sad story, that I was going to go to the 2nd Armored Division -- and he was an armored officer -- "Now here I am an untrained specialist in your department." He said, "What were you going to do?" I said, "Well, General Doan in the 2nd Armored Division had accepted me to come and be in tank company." He says, "I'll talk to him about that," and he reached over -- they had a red phone system that red phones went to the different generals in different locations -- he picked it up and dialed 27 or whatever it was, and General Doan answers the phone, and I'm sitting there. He said, "I got a young captain sitting here that tells me he's supposed to be in the division. Tell me about him, what are you going to do with him?" Well, poor old General Doan hadn't remembered much about the phone conversation a couple of 19 months before or something, and said, "Well, I'm going to make him my aide." And he said, "Like hell you are. I'm keeping him here for that." (laughs) I did it all over again for another two years in the headquarters at [Usera?]. [01:26:32] It was a great experience. General and Mrs. Phillips were a mother and dad to us; they'd invite us to Sunday dinner, and little Tom would crawl around the floor or under the table, and General Collier would feed him peanuts or something. It was a wonderful time, and when the Colliers would take a trip and borrow the commander in chief's train, we went with them. It was marvelous. I saw all of Europe. I knew most everything that was going on in the intelligence field, and it was a great experience with wonderful people. But when he got assigned to go back to the United States, I took the Colliers up to the port to put them on. When I came back, this again on the commander in chief's train, I had the train stop in Mannheim, and I got off in Mannheim. I wasn't going to be stopped again and reported in to the 57th Tank Battalion and for the last year there had a tank company. That was probably the greatest experience of my life. It really was a good experience. We were hard training, we were well trained, good people. In the beginning we had a wonderful commander who was a major, and the division commander, General Doan, didn't want to put a lieutenant colonel in that slot. He wanted this man to get that experience, but eventually they had to pull him and let -- the lieutenant colonels were backing up. So we were out maneuvering and we came to the last day of the maneuvers, and the new battalion commander arrives, and we have this party in a beer hall. The new commander arrives, and one of the company commanders in Charlie Company walked up to the head table with two boots of beer. You know what that is? Glass things that replicate a boot. Big. He puts one in front of each of the two commanders and says, "Let's see who's the better man." This poor guy that has just got off the train coming down from Bremerhaven and crossed the ocean picks up his boot and starts to drink. The battalion commander we love drinks it down and wins the contest, and the new battalion commander was so tight from drinking that beer too fast his feet slipped out from under him as he sat at that table and went right down under the table. (laughter) That was his first day of duty, and he didn't improve much after that. We were all pretty cocky, the company commanders; we were doing a lot of good things. But he knew nothing about it. We told him -- we were told that he had served in a tank battalion in World War II, and that's all we knew about him. It sounded great to us, a guy with some real experience. Well, it turns out that he reported in to a replacement company, and they said, "Take this truckload of men and go forward to point A. There will be a sign on the road at so many miles or kilometers. Turn left in there, and that's where your unit will be." Well, he got down there and made the turn, then went up, and three Germans come out and say, "Achtung! Put him in the compound!" and he went directly to the prisoner-of-war camp. He never had any experience. He'd been a public information officer before, and he was terrible. He was so bad that in a morning meeting every time, when he would suggest something the other three company commanders, we'd sort of nod or shake no. And "Well, what's the matter?" You know why? We didn't get any leadership out of him at all. When it came time to leave there, I had probably the most frightening experience in my life. He stood up in front of the entire battalion officer group and said, "Well, now that Captain Todd is leaving maybe I can take command of this battalion." Oh, my God. 20 Oh, my God. He gave me an efficiency report that would sink anybody, but it just turned out that in that moment of time the army changed the efficiency report system whereby your commander rates you, and his boss rates you, and then a third person rates what they did. Well, the third person turns out to have been the fellow that had been recently the brigade commander, and he knew me, he knew my performance, etc., and he sent back the efficiency report to be redone. Ho. (laughs) Yeah. Those were good times though, good times. Scary times, but testing, really testing you. JC: Because you were right there in Germany during really the height of the Cold War. RT: Yeah. As a matter of fact, one time we were out on maneuvers, 200 miles from our base, when the French and British moved into Suez, because the Egyptians said they were taking over the canal. There we are sitting out in the woods saying, "Oh, my God," because the president had said, "Oh, no, you don't." Eisenhower said, "No, you don't. You can't do that. We give you a lot of money to bring your economies back from the war, and we'll stop it tomorrow unless you withdraw." But we didn't know all that, and my guys are saying "We're going to gyro to Cairo," you know, that (laughter) kind of stuff. We finally came back. But if we'd had to go, I haven't seen a unit that would be any more ready than we were. Yeah. It was really a great exper-- In a company command, everybody doesn't have to bypass the battalion commander who's a dud. But when you do have to do that, then you're really thinking on your feet. It was great. JC: What was your next assignment after that? RT: Would you believe back to Fort Knox? JC: Oh, really? RT: Yeah. I went back there to go to the Armor Officer Advanced Course, which was a nine-month course in there, in which they were teaching you at the next level. Now the course we took before at Fort Knox was a course we should have had before we went to Korea. I came away with a great impression of how good that was. It was excellence. When I saw General Collier working with the instructors and telling them how to handle this kind of thing. When I came back three years later, it was a well-organized organization. In fact, General Abrams had been there as the head of the command department. It was a first class education. I really and truly look back upon my Norwich experience as not up to that standard that the army was producing there. At the end of that course I had talked my way into becoming one of the instructors in the command department, and I was thrilled to death about that. On graduation day I'm sitting in my chair on the aisle, and as the assistant commandant went by my seat he stopped and said, "You're going to be working in my office." (laughs) So I then worked for Colonel Chandler, who was a first-rate soldier. He had been horse cavalry, in the Philippines, and was on the Bataan death march. He was really very much a gentleman, very much strong willed, and very much of a tutor, and I worked out of his office. My job was to arrange the schedules of the classes, and we had all kinds of classes -- enlisted classes, officer classes -- so that they would mesh how 21 many people, how many classrooms do we need, how many instructors do we need, on what day are we going to do it? I was bringing home page after page of long paper, and on the kitchen floor working out the details of making this thing work. It was great, but, again, there was an intermediary. There was a lieutenant colonel who was my immediate supervisor who, again, I thought to be a dud. On my first day of working there he said, "That's your desk right over there." And I'm, "Yes, sir." I went over to my desk. Now what do I do? Here I am, I found my desk. There was a major sitting at a desk facing me who never looked up. He was just scribbling away, scared to death of this guy evidently. A few minutes later he came over and said, "Well, here's the first project I want you to do. This is it. I want you to study this, and then rewrite it, and we'll discuss it." Fine. It wasn't five minutes later, he came over and said, "No, I want you to do this one instead." I went through about six of those before I understood what I was doing. I was hopeless that anything was really going to happen. That same day he came over and looked over my shoulder, and I looked up, and he said, "What are you writing there?" I said, "Well, sir, I'm writing myself a note so that I will be able to put these things in the appropriate order." He said, "Well, you're not saying it very well." (laughter) It was awful. My out was Colonel Chandler, and a major got assigned to the office, and he very quickly understood what was going on here and went in and talked to Colonel Chandler, and Colonel Chandler moved him out. Again, we got a very, very fine operating organization going. It was good; it was very successful. But, you know, every time there's some kind of a roadblock in your career, you've got to stop and figure out how the hell you're going to get around it. JC: What was after Fort Knox? RT: Twenty more years of -- let's see. I graduated from Fort Knox. I was selected below the zone for a promotion. Do you know what that means? JC: Uh-uh. RT: When you're considered for promotion a board meets in Washington, and everybody whose career appears between this date and this date is considered. Isn't that right? Well, what they started, and I don't know if they're still doing it or not -- I think they are -- they would go below this zone and choose certain people to be examined with this group, and I was lucky enough to do that and really jumped ahead. In the headquarters there was Major Howard from Norwich University. Major Howard didn't graduate from here, but he was an instructor when I was a student here. He was in another department, or I didn't see much of him. But when I came out on the below-the-zone list, there were two of us at Fort Knox that came out on it, and he called me on the phone, and he said, "Well, I thought Frank would make it, but I never thought you would." (laughter) So things are weird, but Leavenworth was an exciting time. I was a captain. The majority of people were majors and lieutenant colonels. A real shock of my life in the first day was seated at tables, and there's a blank card in front of you, and the instructor said, "Now write your name on it, not your rank. Write your name on that card." Well, the guy sitting opposite me was a lieutenant colonel, and I was a captain, and I don't know his rank. What do I call him? We were all calling each other by their first names 22 rather than you find in a unit. That (inaudible) [01:41:04] like that, I'm up against it here. So I worked hard, harder than I've ever worked, and at the end of the halfway mark in the course they gave us standings of where you stand in the course, and I was number five or something. I said, "I'm working too hard." Yeah, that was good, a good period in our life. We had Saturdays and Sundays off. I had a little golf group I played with on Saturdays, and Michelob beer was local out there. We'd buy a pitcher -- the loser would buy a pitcher of beer, and that was a big deal. That was a big deal. JC: So when did you go to graduate school at the University of Alabama? RT: Strange you should ask that. When I came to the end of the course at Leavenworth a general officer, a brigadier general, came out to the course to announce to the armor officers, to the infantry officers, etc., what your next assignment would be. About the third name he read was a good friend of mine, and when he read off where he was to go this guy went "Ooohhh." The general looked down at him and said, "What's the problem?" He said, "Sir, I don't think anybody in your office ever read my request." "Oh." He said, "Major so-and-so, come out here." The guy comes out from behind the curtain with a big notebook, and the guy flaps through it, and he looks down, and he says, "I don't know what you're complaining about. It says right here, 'Anywhere in the world but Fort Knox.' And you're going to Fort Knox, your second choice." (laughter) Then he got to my name, and he said, "I want to see you right after this." I thought, oh, God, what now? So I went in, and he was in his office. There was a temporary office. And he said, "We've got a problem here," and I said, "Sir, what is it?" He said, "Well, they've got you going to graduate school, and as the chief armor officer I want you to go to an armored unit." I said, "I have a choice?" He said yes. I said, "Where will I go if I go to an armored unit?" He thought for a minute, and he said, "You'll go to the tank battalion in Hawaii." I said, "Can I discuss this with my wife at lunch?" and he said, "Sure," and I came back and said, "We have decided that we're going to go to graduate school," and that's how that worked out. JC: So you went to Tuscaloosa instead of Hawaii. RT: Yeah. (laughs) JC: Now, what degree did you get at Alabama? RT: MBA. It was a good tough course, but it was in the process of changing the curriculum of business schools, and some of it was very tough. Part of it was very simple, but some of it was very tough. I established a schedule where I went in very early in the morning, got in there before 7:00 every morning, went down to the basement of the library where I had an assigned carrel and started working until it was time for a class to begin. I'd go up to the class and go back to the basement, eat my lunch in the basement, go home at 5:00, and hardly ever did any midnight work at home. We lived a good, wonderful family life in Tuscaloosa. Now, it wasn't all easy. There had been the problems of the colleges not admitting blacks, and the president of the United States pushing hard to make them do it. 23 Then there were the riots at Ole Miss, right at that time. The army sent down its chief person who determines whether the applicants will go to college -- army applicants -- and to which college they will go to. So we all gathered, and there were people taking nuclear physics, and [we have to?] discuss with him, and he talked it back and forth, etc. Finally one young captain in the back said, "Sir, this is all very interesting, but the army's practically at war with our citizens. What the hell happen-- What do we do? What are our orders, and what are our instructions here at the University of Alabama, if the same kind of thing breaks out on this campus?" This poor old duffer who'd been the president of some college someplace sort of shook his head and said, "Well, I hope you'd be on the side of the government." (laughter) That hit right in the heart of soldiers. But it was a good program. When I left I was going to be assigned to the headquarters in US Army Europe in the comptroller's office, and you're required to stay in that position for three years to make up for your being chosen for that job. They want to use your knowledge and experience. Just before I left they changed it, and I went to the US Army Support Command in France, which had 57 separate organizations that it commanded, to include a pipeline that came in at St. Nazaire and went out to all of the air bases and army refueling, etc., and repair of tanks, repair of everything. We took German factories over, used Germans. It was a very, very exciting assignment in terms of technology, but I got assigned to the comptroller's office in that damn headquarters, and I was one of three soldiers. The rest were all civilian employees, or French. One of the people that worked for me was from Yugoslavia; he'd escaped Yugoslavia. So it was a mixed up kind of place. We lived at a French house down by the railroad station. We didn't want to live in the government quarters, we'd done enough of that. We wanted to have an experience in France. From that point of view, it was wonderful. The job was terrible, just terrible. They expected me to know everything that they did in their routine because I'd been to this business program. Well, I had to really move fast to catch up with them. My boss was a man by the name of [Birossi?]. He'd been an Italian-American soldier in World War II who married an Italian and never went home, and when they created the support command then he stayed on in Europe and became a very important man in the headquarters as the budget manager of this very vast organization. I worked like hell to try and get it straightened out. They first gave me the responsibility of working the budget of a couple of the major organizations, one the tank rebuild plant, which was -- God, it looked like General Motors out there. I finally got frustrated with it all. We'd all sit in a room, roll out our papers, and bring in the guy, the comptroller, from that organization, and you'd sit facing each other with Mr. [Birossi?] looking over your shoulder, and you'd work out a budget for them. How the hell did I know? I didn't have any basis for doing it, but we'd discuss it to get it. When this was all over and calmed down I said, "This is stupid as hell," to [Birossi?]. He said, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "We've got the world's best information technology program right in this headquarters, those guys that are working the plants do it all by technical means, punch cards, and here we are sitting around trying to argue about a number on a sheet of paper that doesn't mean a damn thing." He said, "What do you suggest?" I said, "I suggest we go to talk to them, get onto their system somehow, and work this thing out that we can make a reasonable stab at it." He said, "OK, wise guy, do it." 24 Now, there was a lieutenant colonel in this overall office who was Birossi's boss, and I went to see him and told him, I said, "Now, I'm not competent to do this. There's no question about it. However, if you give me two of those young captains of finance that work down the hall from me, I can get this thing started and going." So he assigned these two guys to me, and we changed the whole system of how we did the budgeting of US Army Europe. I got some kind of an award for that. Then they put me in another job where I had all kinds of stupid responsibilities. I had a responsibility for efficiency of each of these many, many organizations, and I got permission to send people -- Frenchmen -- back to the United States to be trained in each of those depots to do it. Then we pulled all of this together right as the secretary of defense had initiated a program to improve work force relationships, his program, and they sent it out and said, "Everybody in the army, navy, and the air force will use these procedures." And my two-star boss said, "No, we won't. We're not doing that. We got a god system, we just got it started, and, well, that's the way it will be." OK, you're the boss. So six weeks later, maybe two months later, there's a message sent to the commanding general that said "We're sending over someone from the Department of Defense to look at your program." I got called in to the CG's office, and he said, "You got two weeks to put this program in place." Well, you know, I was put into a position where I got attention, and I could do what I wanted to do, and I could get help to do it, and everything just sort of worked together. It was a great experience. But, again, it's a case of speaking up and saying what you think is wrong and finding a way to do it. I went in on the train from Orleans into Paris to the IBM plant with boxes of punch cards in my (inaudible) [01:53:43] and brought them into IBM, and we worked it out with them to do it at first before we turned it over to our own organization. That's because if we screwed it up, we'd screw them up badly. But those two finance captains did all the work. I just plowed ahead. Another time, in that same job -- I really thought -- when I got there I said, "My career is ruined. My career is ruined. Who's going to believe that I was in a damn headquarters for a support group? No, uh. I'm an armored guy. No." But anyway, they came up with another program, again, out of the Department of Defense. This time it was to work specifically with -- I can't remember the name of it, but, again, it came out of the secretary of defense's office, and again I got the job to do it. But this time I had an opportunity to start from the beginning with it. It was a matter of saving money, and we were supposed to put out programs, out to our subordinate units, and help them find money and other ways of doing business (inaudible) [01:55:09]. We started with the laundries, a simple thing, and went into the laundries with the people we trained, and they would say to the laundress, "How can you do your job better?" They'd say, "Well, I've been working at this for six years. If we did this, and that, and the other thing," and all of a sudden we weren't doing anything but saying "How do you do it?" and then helping them do it, and getting their boss to agree to it. Well, then you had to take all this information and turn it over to another agency who would check your figures, and numbers, and back and forth, and everything. That all seemed to work out, and things were going along rather well when they put me in for an award as the civilian of the year for product improvement. I was called (laughs) into Heidelberg, and they put on a parade, and the commanding general and I are -- there were other people, for other reasons, being recognized that day. I'm standing 25 beside the commanding general when the troops are passing in review, and he said, "What the hell are you doing here? This is a civilian award." I said, "Sir, you signed it." (laughter) And off we went. I just kept working. Living there was great sport, except the French are crazy. We lived in a neighborhood, as I said, on Rue de la Gale, and the house was an old one. It was rent controlled, and we had to slip the landlord money on certain days, and you'd walk up to his house with a paper bag full of money. A door would open, a hand would come out and grab the paper bag out of your thing, the extra money for the -- crazy. In the neighborhood we never made close friends except in one instance. Our youngest daughter, Ellen, went to French school. The other two kids refused; they were smart enough not to do it. Ellen and her friend [Pascale?] (inaudible) [01:57:36] walked to school with her mother and Carol, over to school. The ladies walked back from school. After lunch, walked over, back to get, march them over, again, at the end of the school day. And they talked, and they talked, and they talked. Not a single word of English was ever spoken for three years between these two women. We get back to the United States and got a very nice letter from her, in English, and she said, "You never would have improved your French the way you did if you knew I had been a nanny in Great Britain and speak English." (Cates laughs) Now, that's the dirtiest, rottenest trick I can ever imagine happening. (laughter) When we had a problem with the house, you'd try and go out and find someone that would fix the faucet. Now, there are four sizes of pipe, and there are 12 sizes of faucets, and there are 14 sizes -- and they ask you which one do you want? You don't know. So somebody has to come and measure it and go back, and two days later you've got water running again. When it came time to buy coal, we went down to the place you buy coal, and it was a storefront on the main road, right in the main store, and he's got little glass canisters with different kinds of coal in the window. You don't buy coal that way anywhere else in the world. We went in, and he wanted to know how many radiators we had in the house, and how many veins each radiator had, and how many sections were in the stove, and then he could figure out how many tons it would take to heat the house. He didn't ask if there was any broken windows, or open doors, or boards off on the roof. They did it totally unscientific. Then when you come to that decision, then they say, "Now do you want it from Belgium? Do you want it from --" you know, down the list. We want anthracite from Belgium, OK. Then they come and dump it in the house with buckets in the window of the cellar, and the whole house is covered with coal dust everywhere. And it was expensive. Living there was not easy, but we made a pact that we were going to go once a month with the kids to Paris, every time, every month, and we did, and we traveled a lot. Not any great distances, but we loved parts of France. But the French were very difficult to live with. JC: Oh, I'm sure. I've been there once. (laughs) RT: The worst one was my father had a cousin who was, in relationship to Dad, it was about six up from him in the corporation, and he was the chairman of the board. We got a call that he was coming to visit the French company that was owned by the American company, and they were going to come down and see us in this hovel (laughs). And just about the time we knew that they were coming but not exactly when they were coming, 26 the French left us with a bit of a problem. When they put in the sewer system, they left the septic tank in the house, in the basement, made of clay, and it began to leak. Do you have any idea what living in that house was like? You couldn't flush a toilet. When I'd go off to work and leave Carol, they had a deal with these crazy guys coming in, and eventually they came in. One guy came in, and he took off the top of this thing, and then he went away. She chased him down, and he said, "Oh, you've got to hire somebody else. The union won't allow me to put the hose down in here and suck out what's left. You've got to find that guy." And it went on, and on, and on, and trying to live in that house. Fortunately we got it cleaned up before Uncle George showed up for lunch. (laughter) JC: Sounds like it was quite difficult living in that house. RT: It was very difficult. Every single day one of us crossed the street to the bakery that was directly across the street from us, and we'd order a demi pan, and bring it back for breakfast, or something else. And every single day that one of us went, my own experience was I'd walk in the door -- "Bonjour, Madame." (laughter) The only guy that spoke to us lived next door, and the reason he spoke to us was that nobody else in the neighborhood, or the town, or the city would speak to him, because he had been a butcher during the Nazi occupation and gave the Nazis all the best cuts of meat. We had no phones. It took three years to get a phone, and it was a three-year tour. If you got a phone, you had nobody to call; they'd all gone home. They're crazy, just crazy. (laughs) JC: So what was the next assignment after France? RT: Well, while in France the Vietnam War broke out, and people lieutenant colonel level in Europe were being pulled back to the United States and given a command in Vietnam. So I applied to get a command in Vietnam, and they said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, you haven't finished your tour for having gone to graduate school. You can't possibly go." This is talking to somebody back in Washington. Then another job opened up, and they needed a lieutenant colonel in an armored battalion, and I called them back again. I said, "I'll come back to this job after that. How about that?" "Nope, we can't do that. We can't do that." Eventually they said, "OK, when you come home from --" I put enough pressure on them. "When you come home from France, we'll send you to Vietnam." And when we came home from France, they said, "No, you're going to go to the Armed Forces Staff College. You've been selected among the army, navy, and air force to go to the Armed Forces Staff College, for six months. After that, we'll get you a job that will get you to Vietnam." Well, you know, it's frustrating, just terribly frustrating. After the Armed Forces Staff College they told me I would go to Vietnam, but first I would go to pick up 57 tanks that had just been manufactured of a new design, and I was to form the tank battalion in the United States, train it in the United States, and take it to Vietnam. When that day came, ready to go, we had three rounds blow up in the chamber back at Aberdeen Proving Ground, and they said, "Hold it. You're no longer on the list to go. But you are going to go to the Naval War College." I couldn't get to Vietnam! It was very difficult. 27 JC: What was the Naval War College like? RT: Terrible. The Naval War College, well, we called it the sleeping room. They had two major speakers every day, one in the morning, and one in the afternoon. That was fine. I mean, I loved to hear them, and they did have a message, but it wasn't work. It was sitting there like you're turning on the television. There was no challenge to this thing at all. Now you could go and get a master's degree along with it from George Washington, but I couldn't, because I had a master's degree, so they weren't going to let me take that program. So they hired somebody the University of Massachusetts had fired from their Economics Department, an old man, to be my mentor and take me through a separate program -- nothing comes out of it other than a dissertation at the end. OK, I'll put up with it, but he was awful, and it was a waste of my time. You never had time between these people to really go to the library and do something. It was 20 minutes. What can you do in the library in 20 minutes? No, you don't. Everyone went and get good coffee, sat around and talked, etc. Oop, time to go back into the bedroom. There was nothing going on in terms of substance in the place. When I had my first time as directing my little group, I worked long and hard on the assignments, and came in the next morning and said, "OK, let's see. Now we had readings in this one, and then we had a differing opinion from this requirement, and then this one, and another one. Commander Jones, what do you think about this?" "Oh, shit," he said, "You don't think I pay any attention to that, do you? I'm in the George Washington program. I'm not going to do any of this." That was a general attitude. There wasn't any depth to what we were doing. One day the admiral in charge, who'd married a British lady and had just come back from another tour in London, said, "How would you like to have lunch at my house with a guest speaker, Todd?" I said, "Gee, that would be very nice, sir." I got up there to discover there were 12 or 13 of us at separate tables and he and the speaker was at another table. What did we do? We sat around and chatted, and ate his food, and left. He said, "How'd you like that?" I said, "What are you referring to, sir?" He said, "Well, the opportunity to be with the speaker." I said, "We weren't with the speaker. You were with the speaker." "Well, how would you handle that?" "I'd put in a round table, and we'd all sit around and talk." "What a great idea." Really, really bad stuff. So he did, and then he invited me to come, and I went, and he said, "How did that go?" I said, "Sir, that was wonderful. But if you did that in the classrooms it might help, too." "We don't have round tables in the classrooms?" He'd never been in a classroom. We didn't have one single naval officer who was nuclear qualified come to the course. They sent them to the National War College. We didn't have one single graduate of a senior college who was on the faculty. I could go on, and on, and on about how bad it was. But one day, in Vietnam, I was sitting at my desk outside General Abrams's office, and I got a call from the naval head in Vietnam. I'm trying to think of his name. I know it as well as I know my own. But anyway, he called me and said, "Russ, I got to see General Abrams." I said, "Well, he's tied up at the moment. Come on up and sit down, and I'll get you in just the minute I can break into it." He said, "Good," and he came up. We sat there, and he said, "I got to talk to General Abrams. They're going to announce this afternoon that I'm the new chief of naval operations, and I don't want him to hear it from anybody else but me." I said, "Oh, have I been waiting for this." He said, 28 "What are you talking about?" I said, "You can do something about the Naval War College that I couldn't," and I laid it out for him, and he fired the guy when he got back there. This is Zumwalt, Admiral Zumwalt. He fired the guy and changed all the programs. I mean, they were tough on him, and they've got a good school there now, or at least the last I knew of it, a very good school that has been accredited. But it was awful. JC: Did you finally get to Vietnam after the Naval War College? RT: Yeah, that's why I was sitting in General Abrams's office. I was to be sent over to be on the command list, which meant this list of people the army feels are capable of doing a job as colonel in a combat unit. They sent my name over, and then they called me back and said, "We've withdrawn your name." (sighs deeply) I said, "Come on, guys. This isn't fair." He's "Hold it, hold it, hold it. They're looking for an assistant to General Abrams, and we've sent your name in." I said, "Look, I've met General Abrams a few times. I don't think he was very impressed with me. I don't think he'll select me off of any list of yours." He said, "There is no list. We only sent your name." (laughter) So I went over there, and I sat for, oh, eight months I guess in General Cao Van Vien's office, who was the head of the Vietnamese armed forces, and I acted as a liaison between General Abrams and General Cao Van Vien, of which there was no requirement. Those guys talked to each other whenever they wanted to. But I represented General Abrams when General Cao Van Vien called the other -- the Koreans, the Australians, the New Zealanders, etc., etc. -- together on a Monday morning to have a meeting, and that was interesting, and I learned a lot, and I met a lot of people. Eventually the secretary of the staff rotated home, and I took his slot. You actually work for the chief of staff, but I read and decided which messages that came in that night would go into General Abrams the next morning, so I got to work very, very early and stayed very, very late, day after day after day, seven days a week. But I really loved working for the guy. Every Saturday morning we would meet with the commanders of the army, navy, air force, etc., the CIA, in the basement of our building, and it was general so-and-so, admiral so-and-so, etc., and Colonel Todd. And Colonel Todd sat in the back of the room and checked -- again, a great learning experience. Watching the interrelationship between these very, very senior commanders was a great experience. Then I went with General Abrams every Monday morning down to brief the ambassador. We'd drive down in his sedan. On Sunday I'd prepare a book for him that he'd go over, and then he'd have that in front of him. He never read it. He never sat in front of the ambassador and read it. I'd be on pins and needles all the time that he'd turn to me and say, "What the hell's this?" (laughs) But he was great. Then I got a command. I left the headquarters and went out and joined the 24th Division as a brigade commander, and I'd been there about eight days when it was announced that the brigade was to go home. (laughs) The next day I got a call on the radio, out flying around in my helicopter -- I had seven battalions in the brigade at the time -- from the corps commander, General Davidson, and General Davidson said, "Meet me at coordinates so-and-so," and we both flew into a point. He said, "I'm pulling you out of this. I've got a problem with the Royal Thai Army. The officer we have working 29 with them is not acceptable any longer to the Royal Thai Army. I need somebody tomorrow, and you're it." That was the craziest thing I've ever been involved in. Wonderful, wonderful Thai commander, who began his military experience at age five in a military academy run by the government. He finished his education in France. The French owned Indonesia. Thailand (inaudible) [02:16:30]. So there we were. Day in and day out, he and I would receive the same briefing. He'd get it in Thai, and his aide-de-camp would give it to me in English. We never ever, ever came to the same solution. We were generations in thought apart. For example, in World War II Thailand never declared war on anybody, but went to war against the Allied forces when they thought Japan was winning. This fellow was a captain in the Thai Army, and he did something very spectacular -- whatever it was, I don't know, very heroic. He was called back to the capital, and he was given the Royal Order of the White Elephant or something. They'd give out five for every war. This was something very, very special, parades, the whole business. He went back to his unit, and then the Thais decided that the Japanese weren't winning the war, and they changed and became our allies. Now you're not going to believe this. They called him back and took the medal because he was fighting on the wrong side. (laughs) I could go on forever on this. My brain couldn't absorb it. When I'd left that and gone back to the United States, I guess when this happened -- I don't remember where I was, but anyway, I wrote him a letter, and I said, "What in the world is going on in Bangkok? You were the commander of the 1st Division, responsible for the security of Bangkok. Your father-in-law is the dictator. They're rioting in the streets, and, to the best I know, nothing's happening." He wrote back to me, after some (inaudible) [02:19:06] time, and said, "Well, you just don't understand our way of thinking. The soldiers had killed some civilians who were rioting, so I went back to my BOQ and stayed there two weeks, and when I came back my father-in-law had been deposed, and the fighting was over." Huh? (laughs) And it wasn't that he wasn't a good soldier, and it wasn't that he was afraid of anything. No, we'd fly around in his damn helicopter and take it places I never would have gone. On the other hand, he had some VIPs coming over, and he said, "We can't take the helicopter today. I'm going to use it tomorrow for some Thai VIPs, and I don't want any fingerprints on it, I don't want to make sure there's no bullet holes in the thing. We'll just take this other thing." What? We couldn't come together. At one point, the real one that almost got me in trouble -- I think it was on Thanksgiving -- our base camp also had three units in it from the 1st Cavalry Division, and the Thais, and the Thais who were responsible for the security, and I was responsible to the US headquarters. Well, on the big army base, maybe 15 miles away, on Thanksgiving night everything went up in the air, flares, and shooting, and machine guns, and all the Thais thought this was great, and they all did it. He called me in the next morning, and he laid me out. He said, "No Thai would ever do that. Your Americans did this." Well, OK, I'll suck it up. "I assure you it won't happen again, sir." So come New Year's time, I put out to my staff with each of his units, where they normally served, to stay with them all night and record everything that happened in that TOC. Next morning he got me again when I went in there. I said, "Sir, before we say anything else, I suggest you talk to your TOC officer." He went down there, and those 30 guys, we made them record everything, and he discovered that it was his units that were doing it. What do you suppose his answer to that one was? JC: I don't know. RT: He called in his senior officers and said, "I'm resigning from the army. You've let me down." And he went back into his hooch and stayed there for about three days. I woke up at the end of three days early in the morning, and the whole goddamn Thai Army that was posted in Vietnam was out there in a formation. I walked out to see what was going on and stood behind him -- he was up on a platform -- and they all apologized, etc., and he forgave them, and they went back into the woods to their positions. They'd left their fighting positions to come back and apologize to the commanding general. JC: Oh, wow. RT: (laughs) You can find one worse than that, I'll bet. My goodness. JC: Want to stop again? (break in audio) JC: Let's stop here, because we've done about another hour and 10 minutes. (break in audio) RT: Let's -- (break in audio) [02:23:15] JC: All right, this is Joseph Cates. Today is May 19, 2016. This is my second interview with Major General Russell Todd. This interview is taking place at the Sullivan Museum and History Center. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. So when we left off last time we had gone through Vietnam, and you're ready for your next assignment. What was that? RT: OK. When the Royal Thai Army left Vietnam I moved out to a brigade, as I said earlier. But the time with the brigade was very unsatisfactory to me as a professional. It was a little more than a month, and that's not what I considered to be a command. So thinking about what would happen when I got home, I called to the Pentagon, talked to the people in armor branch. A lieutenant colonel sits on a desk and shuffles the papers for colonels and helps make the decisions. I told him I wanted to have a particular command at Fort Lewis, Washington, that I knew the command was about to change. And they said, "Oh, we've already appointed somebody to that port. But you are coming back to go to the Pentagon." 31 I had fought off the Pentagon earlier in my tour. When I was working for General Abrams I got a call from the Pentagon that said "We're bringing you back to the United States because a new position has opened up, and it calls for a brigadier general, and although you're only a colonel, we want you to fill that position." And I said, "Tell me about it." They said, "Well, you're going to be the army's first drug-and-alcohol-abuse officer." I said, "You've been watching what I'm drinking." He said, "No, this is what we've got in mind for you." And I said, "That isn't going to work. It just isn't going to work. I'm over here on a two-year tour, and if you want me to leave here, I'll give you General Abrams's telephone number, and you can call him and ask him to release me." Well, no, they didn't think they would do that. (laughs) So when I went back I went to the Pentagon, and there I went to work for a four-star general who I had met several times, because he traveled to Vietnam back and forth, General Kerwin, a wonderful, wonderful soldier. And when I reported in he told me that I was going to be the head of the department that he supervised for the Modern Volunteer Army. My job would be to coordinate all of the programs that were going on both at posts, camps, and stations around the country and around the world, and also within the Pentagon, to evaluate where we ought to be going. Well, OK. It wasn't my first choice. I had about, oh, 10 lieutenant colonels working for me in a very small office that didn't have any windows, and there was a lieutenant general working in the chief of staff's office whose title was the chief of modern volunteer army. So I was torn between two very senior officers who didn't agree with each other very often, and the job went on, and back and forth, and up and down, but a lot of answering letters from the Congress and this kind of thing, and then evaluating things that came from the field. Well, one day I was up in the next level in the Pentagon, because I'd been called by that lieutenant general, and he started chewing me out just something awful for reasons I couldn't explain. Finally he said, "I'm going down and see General Kerwin." My boss. What the hell's this about? So I was standing alone in his office. He went out a side door, and I said, "I've got to get to General Kerwin quick." So I picked up -- they have red phones that go between the very senior officers. I picked it up and dialed General Kerwin's office, and he has to answer that, no matter what's going on. And I said, "Sir, we got trouble," and told him what was going on. I saw him later in the day. He said, "Thanks. That really made a difference." From that moment on, he treated me like I was one of his best friends and had faith in what I was doing. Now, they did bring back in a major general who had just stopped commanding the 82nd Airborne Division, and he came in, and he was my immediate supervisor. But General Kerwin made a proposal -- not a proposal -- instructions to everybody about that time that said "Everybody that works for me in the deputy chief of staff personnel office is going to spend four years in this job." I could see my chances of getting a second shot at a brigade just going out the window. Carol and I had bought a house in Washington, the first home we ever owned. In France it was a rental, and everything else was army quarters. So this was special. She loved that house. She took a job in Washington, DC, in the personnel department, and then she had done a lot of that before, and that was sort of a big part of what she had done at Radcliffe after Smith, and she loved that job. In fact, everywhere we went she tried to find a job that would keep her busy and active. 32 So there we were, balancing back and forth. Now what do I do? Well, I'll go back to my old trick and call the people in my branch on the phone, and I called this young man early one morning before anybody else was in the office, and he happened to be there. I told him my plight, that I'd been really cheated in that one month I'd had in the thing, and General Davidson had said I was coming to Europe with him to command a brigade, and that didn't work out once he found out I'd never been in the Pentagon. "So I want a command, and I want to lay it out right now. I want you to start working on it." He said, "Sir, I'm not sure I can do that." I said, "Well, what time do you come to work?" He said, "Well, I'm in here by 8:00 every morning." I said, "Get in at 7:30 on Monday, because I'm going to call you every goddamn Monday I'm sitting at this desk," and I did. Eventually he said, "I've made an appointment with you with my boss, Colonel [Touche?], who oversees all the branches for colonels." I walked over, and it was my old friend from Fort Knox who had been the senior aide when I was the junior aide to General Collier. He had talked it over with the committee that makes these kinds of decisions, and they were going to put my name in nomination to go back onto the brigade commanders list. Great. A few weeks later I get a phone call that says "We put your name before the committee, and you are on the list, and you're number two." Uh-oh. I'm supposed to spend four years working for General Kerwin? (laughs) So a little later they call back and said, "Whoa. Wait. In the 2nd Armored Division the brigade commander has moved up to be chief of staff, and that brigade is open." I said, "OK. Now you guys call General Kerwin and tell him that you're pulling me out." They said, "Like hell we will." (laughter) So I went to see General Kerwin, and he sort of grimaced and (inaudible) [02:32:24]. He said, "You know my policy." I said, "Yes, I do, sir, but this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for me." And he said, "I'll tell you tomorrow." So the next day he called me, and he said, "Against my better judgment I'm going to let you go to that command. But let me tell you this. The day that's over you're coming back to work for me." I said, "Yes, sir. Thank you." I ran home. (laughs) A little later, in time, the moving truck was in front of the house. I'd gone home, checked out of the office, done everything appropriately, and gone back, and there was a phone call waiting for me at home. General Kerwin. He went on to say what he really wanted me to do, wouldn't I know, is that -- "Sir, we've made our deal," and he says, "OK, but remember, I'm going to get you when you get (inaudible) [02:33:21]." And that was very pleasing to me. I loved the idea of working for him. But, again, it was a matter of just working your way through the system. It was terribly important to my career and to me. People were telling me that "You don't have to do this" kind of thing. You know, "You've done all those kinds of things." But no, that wasn't the career I wanted. So I went to the 2nd Armored Division and took over the 3rd Brigade of the 2nd Armored Division at Fort Hood, Texas, and that was a real fun thing. I really enjoyed it. I had a lot of good people working for me. Some of them went on to become general officers later on. The first thing that happened was they told me that the brigade in one month is going to move to Germany on Operation [Forger?]. Does that mean anything to you? Well, in the Cold War we had built all kinds of home hutches and places to store tanks and materials that take a lot of time to get into the theater. If they said, "OK, the balloon went up. Come over here," you wouldn't have had any -- you'd have to wait for your 33 tanks for a month. So they had all those vehicles and stuff over there, and every year we went over and exercised the idea of flying over -- not me, the army did. It was my brigade's turn, and it was just great. I had planned that thing for every possible contingency, in my mind, and we laid it out with the staff. I said, "Now if this happens, or that happens, or this happens, this is what we'll do. Plan A, B, C, and D." And damn, I figured everything except it was going to snow at Fort Hood, and the air force wouldn't show up. (laughter) So we were about two days late getting there, and it slowed things up. But we went out on maneuvers for about a month and a half, and that was a great experience. I'd done it as a company commander when I was stationed in Europe, but as a brigade -- when I went over I've been detached from the 2nd Armored Division of the United States and attached to the 1st Infantry Division, when I got over to Europe. There for the first time I met a fellow named (laughs) -- I met someone, a senior officer, a brigadier general who, because my brigade wasn't part of his division, I had to go through the ropes of him looking over my shoulder for the first three weeks of what we were doing. It wasn't easy. Eventually he and I had a good reputation among each other, and then we're good. It worked out pretty well. Well, his name is Fuller, Fred Fuller. Just to move that part of the story a little further forward, when I went to Forces Command he was the DESOPS, and I was the assistant -- correction, he was the DESPER, personnel, and I was the assistant DESOPS. And again, good friends, you know. No, sir. I had to prove myself all over again to him. That was tough. That was tough. Then when I became division commander at Fort Hood, would you believe they made him the corps commander, and my boss again? And again, I went through the process. I called it rook training, he wanted to test me on everything that was going on, and then eventually he agreed, and we got along. That was a very difficult relationship I had with that individual. So we came back from Germany after the Reforger, and it was time to change division commanders. A general officer that I had met once or twice but didn't know came in as the two-star commanding the (inaudible) [02:38:26]. This was a fight for my life. He, in my opinion, didn't represent a good soldier. He would drive in his jeep with the two stars on the front, down the street, and the men in the division would say, "Hi, General," and he'd wave back, "Hi." No saluting, none of this. He would come around in my battalion and ask the company commander and the battalion commander to see their operational reports, and particularly the readiness reports, whether or not this tank would go or that one. He required them, not required them, but pushed hard for them to like take something off this tank and put it on that tank, and now we've created another tank that this one isn't working, this one if you take the parts and put it on this one, that's one less tank, but will look that much better. It was everything how you looked. Eventually he was promoted to lieutenant general and shipped to Europe, and his chief of staff caught on to his way of life, reported it. He got thrown out of the army, reduced to major general, and was retired. But that was a tough fight, that was a tough fight. In town now there's a major general, retired, John Greenway. Maybe you've met Phyllis. JC: I have. RT: Well, John Greenway was my chief of staff in the brigade, and I don't know how many times he saved my life. He'd say, "No, no, no, don't go up there and tell that general off. 34 Don't do it. Stop here." One time I actually said, "The hell with you, John, I'm going up there." I was really mad. Again, he had ordered my people to do something that was not proper. So John called up the division chief of staff, who was a good friend, and said, "Russ is on the way. Stop him." (laughs) So I never got in to see him, and I calmed down, and the chief of staff discussed it with me in a way. But it was a difficult, difficult system to live with, but I had wonderful people working for me. JC: Well, that's good. RT: Yeah. JC: What year is this? RT: Oh, my God. (inaudible) [02:41:04] I can't remember my birthday. (laughter) It was about '60 something, yeah. I came back to the United States, and I was assigned to forces command, where General Kerwin was, the man that said, "You're going to go work for me," and I went to work for General Kerwin just as I'd been promoted by the system to be brigadier general. I worked for him for two years and then another year with General Rogers, who went on to be the chief of staff of the army, and it was great. Real professionals who understood various ways of handling people beautifully. I must admit, he had a chief of staff who wasn't quite up to speed in my opinion, and as a result I found myself bypassing the chief of staff, which really isn't a very good idea. But both General Kerwin and General Rogers, when I was there, would call me on the phone directly and ask me to do something. As the junior brigadier general at Fort McPherson, Georgia, they immediately appointed me to be club officer, and to be the president of the Association of the United States Army chapter at Fort McPherson. I was really the junior guy in that headquarters as far as a general officer is concerned. The biggest thing that happened to me really there was that that's when we had the baby lift out of Vietnam, and then we had the evacuation of Vietnam. In the operations business at forces command, we had the responsibility of preparing those units in the United States, wherever they might be involved, to prepare them for the influx of people. I was up a lot of nights and really mad at the air force sometimes. They would bring in planes early, before we could finish taking people off the previous planes and get them, kind of thing. They finally came around. But it was a real wonderful experience as far as I'm concerned. I had the thrill of getting a thank you letter from the president and being called in by the State Department, who had the responsibility of taking these people once they arrived in the United States -- when they arrived in the United States the army was responsible for them. We took old barracks and tried to fix them up to be for families and all the rest of it. And the next step was to put them out into the population in America, and that was done by the State Department. At the end of this, the State Department gave me an award and invited me over to Foggy Bottom, and it was carried out in the formal part of that. It's a very ordinary-looking building, but inside, on the top floor, they have collected and put in there all the furnishing and antiques of America. They would go to somebody that had something that the State Department wanted, and they would say "We would like to have it, and we will replicate it exactly, and give you back the replication." They built -- it's a museum, it's a wonderful, wonderful museum of 35 American furniture through time. I was really impressed with it being there. I wasn't that impressed with the State Dept- people in Vietnam. (laughs) It was very interesting. JC: Yes, sir. So this was around 1975, that would be (crosstalk; inaudible) [02:45:47]. RT: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I did one or two year. JC: Where were you from Fort McPherson? RT: From Fort McPherson, when my immediate boss left General Rogers called me in and said, "I want you to be my full-time top guy and deputy chief of staff operations." I said, "No, General, that isn't right." "What are you talking about, it isn't right?" I said, "You want someone that's been a division commander to be in that job. I mean, you're dealing with all those division commanders, and if the guy that's passing the instructions hasn't had the experience of being a division commander, it doesn't come through right." And he said, "All right. All right." About a year later I was on a board in Washington. You're sent in to do a lot of those things. Interestingly enough, on this particular one I was the head of the board for captains being promoted to major, and I got in trouble with General Rogers. The instructions we had were "These are the formulas, etc., that you follow when you're looking at the history of their being in the service. You can add to this other things, if you, as a board, want to do it." The first thing we added to it was that any captain who had served a normal period of time as a captain in the combat arms branches and had not had a company wasn't to be promoted on this occasion to major. Passing up a captain, you pass up the real army and the real understanding of the army, and, oh, boy. It turns out that we eliminated from being promoted five captains at West Point, instructors, and that reverberated around the world. (laughs) General Rogers finally calmed down. Then on another occasion when I was away in Washington he called me on the phone and said, "The major generals promotion list has just come out." I said, "Oh, good. Who's on it?" and they said, "You are." Oh, wow. After I went back he called me in his office and said, "Now, I'm going to send you to Fort Hood to command a division." Previous discussion, you got to have a command. I said, "Oh, my. Where's George going?" And he looked at me with this great strain on his face and said, "George who?" I said, "George Patton, 2nd Armored Division." I had been in the 2nd Armored Division twice. Four men have commanded the 2nd Armored Division, three of them during World War II. I knew that was my place in life. Well, he said, "You're going to the 1st Cav." Of course, when I'd been there as a brigade commander the 1st Cav was the enemy. (laughter) It was a little difficult to change my mindset that I was now the head of the 1st Cavalry Division, but it turned out to be a good assignment, too. We were immediately assigned a mission of working on something that was called Division '86, and this was the '76-'77 time frame. What we would do is to experiment with different organizational concepts, try them out, and another R&D organization would evaluate whether this was a good idea, or whether it wasn't a good idea. But, man, was that a lot of work. We had soldiers picking up their mattresses and marching over two streets, and then joining another company, because now we were trying -- we were going to have tank platoons with only four tanks rather than five tanks, 36 and these guys had to fill in for the -- you know, back and forth, and up and down. It was a crazy time, but it was very, very rewarding. We lived next door to George Patton and Joanne Patton, and as a matter of fact we had become very close friends over the time we were in the army. We went home on vacations sometimes by accident at the same time, back in New England, and other times purposefully. But we celebrated our twenty-fifth wedding anniversary together, both divisions, at the club, and it was officers. It was really good sport. JC: Was that your last command? RT: No. They sent me to -- at one Fort Hood, after two years of commanding the division, I went down and commanded something called [Tecada?] [02:51:38], which was a research and development experimental station kind of thing. I was doing to the rest of the world what they'd been doing to me, for two years I guess, at which point I was shipped over to Europe to be the deputy chief of staff for operations under General Kroesen. He was one of the most magnificent soldiers I'd ever met. I worked for him once before for a short time, but he was first class. Then I got a call from Loring Hart, president of Norwich University, who I'd gotten to know -- over his 10-year span as president -- pretty well. In my traveling around at various times, I was the head of the Norwich Club of Georgia, the Norwich Club of Fort Hood, the Norwich Club in Europe. They'd come over to visit, and we became close. I had come home on leave to see my dad, who was in bad trouble health wise, and I got a call from Loring Hart to my dad's home down in New Hampshire. He said, "I need you to come up here. I need to talk to you; it's important." And I said, "Gee, I don't know. Dad is not well, I don't know how long he's going to live, and I can't be here very long, so I really and truly want to see as much of him as I can." He said, "Well, afterward, after this weekend" -- it was a big alumni weekend -- "I'll stop in to see you." I said OK. Well, Mother got a hold of me, and Dad got a hold of me and said, "Go on up there." Dad said, "Get a hold of my classmates and tell them I'll be there next year." Well, I knew most of his classmates. When I arrived I found them at lunch in the Armory, and I walked down to the table, the half where they were, and started saying this lie about my father, he's going to be getting well, and he'll see you next year when he comes. All of a sudden the most unusual thing happened. There was this great noise in the Armory, and it kept getting louder and louder and louder. As this individual coming into the room got closer to our table, I discovered that it was General Harmon coming back, and all of these people were saying, "Ernie, Ernie, Ernie, Ernie." I couldn't believe it, you know, really and truly. It showed me just exactly how much he was loved by this institution. That doesn't mean he didn't make a lot of mistakes at times, but he really pulled us out of the woods. So Loring Hart stops in at the house and says, "The board at Norwich University has told me that 10 years is enough, and I'm going to retire. I want you to put your name on the list to be considered." I said, "You're a PhD, you taught English, you became the dean of the university. I don't have any of that." He said, "And you don't need it either, because I'm absolutely certain they're going to choose a soldier." I said, "What do you know, I'm qualified." I went back to Europe, told my boss, and then came back. I made a couple of trips back and forth. I told my boss, which was General Kroesen, what was 37 going on, and then went to see the chief of staff of the army to tell him that I was putting in my papers. You know, after you've been division commander you owe the army something, because of the experience they've given you. So I went to see General "Shy" Meyer, who I'd known in Vietnam, and I was a little dubious here. What will he say? So I told him, and he jumped up from behind his chair, rushed around to my side of his desk, shook my hand, and said, "Boy, that's just exactly what I want to do when I get out." (laughter) Then, unfortunately, and this doesn't have to be spread around, he told me that my name had been submitted to be promoted to Lieutenant General, and it is now before the Congress. Had I not put this in and had I been selected, I was going to go to one of two different jobs, and neither one of them sounded as much fun to me as coming home. Not that I could change my mind. Once you've told the army you're retiring, you're retiring. You don't change your mind. So that's how I got here. JC: What were the other two choices? RT: To be the chief of staff of USEUCOM, which was for the European theater of all of the activities there, and the other one was on the joint staff, doing the DES-OPS kind of work, which is called the J5. JC: So you come to Norwich. Talk a little bit about the application process, because I know Phil Marsilius says in his oral history that they gave you an eight-point plan that they wanted implemented. RT: Yeah. Very unusual I thought, and very useful. Before I get to that (laughs), Carol and I came. We went to New York City and joined a committee of the board who were involved in the selection process. The plane was late, the taxis weren't running, and we were late getting to this thing. Carol was a little nervous that that showed that maybe we weren't working hard enough to get there. They said to me, "We've just finished lunch. Do you want something to eat?" and I said, "Oh, yeah. How about a bowl of onion soup?" Carol said to me afterward, "You could have chosen anything but that cheese dangling out of your mouth." (laughter) But, to me, we had a wonderful conversation, and quite frankly I left in the cab going back to the airport with a member of the board who sat there and congratulated us, because they were certain that the board was now going to select us. Yeah, interesting. Where were we in our discussion? JC: The eight-point plan. RT: Yeah. I can't tell you what the eight-points are right now, but they were all reasonable, one of which was to make Vermont College work, the system of the two institutions together, and that's interesting, too. On that point I tried very hard -- they put a lot of pressure on Loring to go up to Vermont College at least twice a week. He'd go home, changed out of his uniform into civilian clothes, go up to Vermont College, and I don't know what he did, presumably he did good things, and came back again. I got into that routine with him, and I found that Vermont College was in deep trouble, I mean, in my opinion. Over time Vermont College had reduced the quality of their education in order 38 to sustain the number of students they needed, and they had all kinds of programs going that didn't make a lot of sense. They had a nursing program that was excellent. Excellent. They had just bought some programs from -- oh, what's the name of it? JC: Goddard? RT: Goddard College, and they were difficult to mesh into the family. For example, I hadn't been here very long, and I got a call from Mrs. Lippincott, who was the chief officer of Vermont College and had previously been Loring's assistant. I got a call that said, "There's going to be a graduation on Friday" -- this was about Wednesday -- "and it's going to be outside at Vermont College. It's going to be one of the Goddard programs that's graduating at this time. They would like to invite you to be part of their graduation." So I said, "Fine, I'll be there." But before I went I hadn't heard anything more, so I called up to find out, and I said, "Now, what's my role in this? Do I hand out the diplomas? Do I make a speech, do I congratulate them from the platform? What do I do?" They said, "Oh, no, they just want you to sit there and be present. They do all this themselves." OK. I can live with that, and we'll see what happens. The first student to graduate came up, gave a little speech, each one of them, and then took their diploma and put it from their left hand to their right hand, and went back to their chair. The institution wasn't involved. This happened seven or eight times before I really said this is something we've got to look at. Then they decided, or they didn't then decide, the next thing was to have a musical rendition. They had a fellow with a fife and a piano player, and they pushed the piano out toward the group, and the front leg broke off pushing it through the grass. They somehow got it jacked up and started, and the flute player -- well, it was awful, just awful. The next day I said to my vice president, Jim Galloway, major general, retired, I told Jim what had happened, and he said, "You know, you weren't the first. I was the first. The same sort of thing went on, but it was crazier when I was up there." I said, "Tell me." He said, "The flute player was in a tree." (laughter) So we spent some time trying to bring it into the focus. Quite frankly they had some fine professors. They just didn't have a system involved. JC: I've always heard Goddard is a little strange. RT: Well, put it this way. One time Carol and I invited the president of -- oh, in Burlington. JC: UVM? RT: N

FEBRUARY, J900 ■ Gettysbur Mercury CONTENTS. Puzzles and their Value in Men-tal Training, 261 How Obtain Equilibrium be-tween Production and Con-sumption, 265 Scene in the Forest, Orlando Soliloquizing, 271 Education more than a Means of Gaining a Livelihood, 272 A Comparative Study in Ruskin, 274 Editorials 278 Economic Results of Gambling, 279 Results of the Art of Healing,. 282 Public Control of Industries 285 The Power of Ignorance; 292 KAVOR THOSE WHO FAVOR US. For Fine. Printing go to p o ,,0 CARLISLE ST. GETTYSBURG, PA. C. B. Kitzmiller Dealer in Hats, Caps, Boots and . Douglas Shoes GETTYSBURG, PA. J. H. Myers Fashionable Tailor, Clothier and Gents' Furnisher. The best place in town to taaveyourCloth-ing made to order. All workmanship and Trimmings guaranteed. No charge for re-pairs and pressing for one year. Dyeing and Repairing a specialty. Ready-made Clothing the largest stock in town. Up-to-date styles. 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HINDS & HOBLE, Publishers 4-5-13-14 Cooper Institute H. Y. City Schoolbnohs of all publishers atone store. R. A. WONDERS, Corner Cigar Parlors. A full line of Cigars, Tobacco, Pipes, Etc. Scott's Corner, Opp. Eagle Hotel. GETTYSBURG, PA. JOHN M. MINNIGH, Confectionery, Ice, andIee Cpeankjj-* Oysters Stewed and Fried. No. 17 BALTIMORE ST. I .THE. GETTYSBURG MERCURY. Entered at the Postoffice at Gettysburg as second-class matter. VOL. VIII. GETTYSBURG, PA., FEBRUARY, 1900. No. 8 Editor-in-Chief. J. FRANK HEILMAN, '00. Assistant Editors. LUTHER A. WEIGLE, '00. S. A. VAN ORMER, '01. Alumni Editor. REV. F. D. GARLAND. Business Manager. JOHN K. HAMACHER. '00. Assistant Business Manager. CLARENCE MOORE, '02. Advisory Board. PROF. J. A. HIMES, LIT. D. PROF. G. D. STAHLEY, M. D. PROF. J. W. RICHARD, D. D. Published monthly by the students of Pennsylvania (Gettysburg) College. Subscription price One Dollar a year in advance, single copies Fifteen Cents. Students, Professors and Alumni are cordially invited to contribute. All subscriptions and business matter should be addressed to the Business Manager. Articles for publication should be addressed to the Editor. Address THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY, GETTYSBURG, PA. PUZZLES AND THEIR VALUE IN MENTAL TRAINING. [GIES PRIZE ESSAY, FIRST PRIZE.] OF all the powers of the human soul, the imagination is one of the most universal in its application and pleasing in its products, the earliest activity of the infant mind, and the last to cling to old age. Without the exercise of this faculty, the world would be a barren waste of material facts, in which would dwell the human race, passive recipients of objective im-pressions, without the power to revel in the beauties of imaged thought and conception of the Divine. Poetry, philosophy, art, science, invention, religion—all would be lost to mankind. L,ittle wonder, then, that the products of the imagination have ever been present and cultivated among men. The word "puzzle" has been variously defined, and the objects of thought and action to which it may be applied are widely different. But a common ground may be assumed—a puzzle is an invented contrivance, either intellectual or material, mtmllM - 262 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. whose solution requires time and ingenuity. It will be seen that the puzzle is pre-eminently the product ot the inventive imagina-tion and in turn its highest application is in the exercise of that power for its solution. Intellectual puzzles are in many senses the most important and also most ancient, being generally cast in the form of riddles. From the earliest times of history we can find evidence of the existence of puzzles, either as a form of intellectual amusement or didactic discipline. Among the Eastern nations obscure forms of expression were the inevitable associates of their symbolical modes of thought. It is certain that such methods of statement were in use among the Egyptians, while several books of riddles exist in old Arabic and Persian. One of the most well-known of puzzles is the riddle which Samson propounded to the Philistines, and many other examples are found in the Bible. The proverbs of Solomon are at times excellent types of the didactic form of the riddle. The parables of the Savior were skillful methods of teaching important truths veiled under an interesting narrative which drew the attention of the crowd, and would be very accept-able to an Eastern mind. In Greece the riddle was a favorite mode of intellectual enter-tainment at symposia. To the active mind of the Greek nothing was more pleasing than a well-directed turn of expression which would give room for play of the imagination. There is abundant evidence of this among their writers. Some of their poets even did not hesitate to write whole books of riddles, and Kleobulus, one of the seven wise men, was especially noted for his composi-tions along this line. The famous riddle of the Sphinx as told in the Oedipus Tyrannus, is probably the best known puzzle of Greek literature, though the most interesting form was a part of their very religious life and character—the oracles of the inspired priests, on which hung sometimes the fate of nations, even of the world. The raveling of such obscurities of expression was a source of the keenest pleasure to the Greek mind, and, while a product of the imagination, was an efficient agent in bringing it to that perfection shown in attic literature, thought and philosophy. The Roman mind, more earnest and grave, found small pleas-ure in these modes of intellectual activity, and very little is known of their use of puzzles until the later republic and empire, when they were introduced with the passion for everything Greek, and ■■■■HH THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 263 professional riddle-makers soon began to take a prominent part in their entertainments and banquets. During the middle ages puzzles were cultivated more as a pleasant means of entertainment than for any other purpose, and until recently the same idea has clung to them. Many manu-script and printed editions of collections of puzzles, riddles and conundrums are in existence. Much of their content consists of coarse jests, but there are some real gems of wit and valuable aids to a true estimate of mediaeval life. The Reformation put a stop to this merry jesting for a time, but it soon crept into favor again, and during the eighteenth century the most brilliant minds of Europe were engaged in the intellectual pastime. At the present day puzzles are still in great favor with both young and old, and their educational worth is becoming more and more realized. As a mental training the value of the puzzle lies chiefly in its power of cultivating quickness and strength of the constructive imagination. An obscurity of expression or mechanical con-struction may require time to solve its intricacies, but the mind is certainly the better for having mastered it. All the faculties of memory and imagination are brought into play, and side by side comes development of the reasoning power as we attempt to deduce from our problem its elements, or to arrive by induction at the result of certain assumed forces. These are the things which made the riddle so attractive to the Greek, with his quick imagination and active reasoning power. When we solve a dif-ficult puzzle, we in fact repeat the very processes by which as children we began to learn, for then everything was a puzzle; and in doing so we strengthen the faculties of the mind which are most essential, and besides strength impart to them a facility and quickness of action, which is in itself most valuable. The subject-matter of the puzzle may be another source of con-siderable benefit. The didactic riddles of the East have already been mentioned as examples of what may be taught in this way. A truth given an obscure expression which requires mental effort to unravel will be impressed upon the mind when it has been gained. A mechanical construction whose every portion has been carefully studied with a view to its possible part in the function of the whole, will not soon be forgotten. In this fact alone may be grounded a strong argument in favor of the puzzle's part in mental training. 264 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. Puzzles are beginning to play a more and more important part in the education of the child. Almost the first book placed in its hands, "Mother Goose," is full of simple riddles. Froebel's kindergarten method, so generally acknowledged now-a-days, em-bodies the puzzle idea to a great extent, developing as it does the powers of observation, invention and reasoning. As the child passes into school, puzzles of graded difficulty are used for several years, and his toys always include a number of puzzles and games, many of which contain subject-matter of educational value. Many firms now publish educational games, whose benefit to the child will be revealed by even a superficial examination. The use of puzzles may be carried too far, however; for they may be made an end in themselves. Men may become so infatu-ated with the delicacy of reasoning and exhilaration of discovery as to lose sight entirely of the practical use of the mind. So did the School-men of the middle ages, who waged long controversies on trivial and absurd questions merely for sake of the argument. Neither should puzzles take the place of more legitimate means of education, for it must be kept in mind that they are for the more developed merely an intellectual pastime which will benefit instead of harm ; and for the child a means of starting its mind upon the path which it must shortly travel with the more able guides of language, art and science. Puzzles seem to be trivial things, and are so in a certain sense. But they present wonderful capabilities to the student of Psy-chology and the teacher of the child's mind. Used within proper bounds, as a means and not an end, they may become, in devel-opment of strength and facility of the imagination and the reas-oning power, and in didactic force, a powerful factor in mental training. —L. A. W., '00. Hold fast to the Bible as the sheet anchor of your liberties; write its precepts in your hearts, and practice them in your lives. —U. S. Grant. A broken reputashun is like a broken vase—it may be mend-ed, but alwuss shows whare the brak waz.—Josh Billings. THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 265 MOW OBTAIN EQUILIBRIUM BETWEEN PRODUCTION AND CONSUMPTION. AS a matter of course, the first thing to consider in searching for a remedy for any evil, whether in economics or else-where, is to seek to find the causes of that evil, and to discover a means of removing these causes. Whether the means proposed be beneficial in other respects or advisable upon other grounds we do not need to inquire in this paper. All that is necessary is to find some measure which gives fair promise of bettering matters in this one department of economic life which we have under consideration, namely, of establishing a more stable and more nearly correct relation between the producer and consumer. Briefly and roughly stated, it seems to us that the whole difficulty arises from the fact that the producer is not able to foretell how much of a demand there will be for his goods and incidental to this, how many of those who create the demand will be able to pay within a reasonable time, provided he is willing to sell on credit. As to the second point, demand un-doubtedly is defined to be how much certain persons are ready to take at a certain price. But we must remember that an enormous part of economic operations are conducted on a credit basis and we cannot overlook this as it exercises such a potent influence in increasing or lowering the demand or supply at any time. For if a man believes the credit of his purchasers is good, he will be willing to sell a greater quantity of goods on credit and at a lower price than if he is doubtful as to their credit, and so we might illustrate further. This second point then is incidental to the first, but it is so important in the view we take of the matter that we mention it at once in connection with what we regard the leading difficulty, namely, the producer's ignorance of the con-sumer's future demand for his goods. For he must anticipate the future. It is possible in so few industries to carry on production by filling orders already filed, that we may almost neglect them. And where there are such, the difficulties which we find elsewhere between producer and consumer do not exist, since they work on a solid basis with regard to the future, and are not compelled to base their output upon a supposed state of the market. In other words, they know 266 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. what the market will be and this is the element which is ordinar-ily lacking and which is the cause, as we believe, of the mis-understandings. Now it becomes important to try to answer the question "Why are these producers in ignorance of the future demand for their goods ?" Necessarily an important factor, in all economic life, is the large mass of natural products which are so dependent on the forces of nature, and as it is impossible to control the workings of these to any appreciable extent, the period between the planting for the future and the realization of it, between "seedtime and harvest," must always be one of doubt. It is apparently impossible to control the amount of production in this sphere, and, so far as this operates as an agent in causing misunderstandings between the producer and consumer, we do not attempt to suggest a remedy. As long as it is impossible for a man to know that he can meet a certain demand, even though he is sure that demand will exist, and that impossibility depends on the fact that the agents which cause the uncertainty are beyond human control, the cure seems also to be without the bounds of human power. From this class of cases where there is an impossibility for the producer to tell what supply he can put upon the market, we pass, by almost imperceptible gradations, to cases where the producer needs only know the demand and he can meet it with an ample supply. No doubt there are natural products which lie on the line between these extremes, as, for example, the output of mines which can be regulated to a fair extent, and there are products, not strictly natural, which are very uncertain as to the possible supply, but as a rule the further removed the product is from the soil, the more completely is the extent of its production within the control of man. It is to this class of products that we wish to direct particular attention. Assuming then that the demand could be met if it could be known, we come again to the question "Why cannot the demand be known ?" The producer can find from his table ofstatistics how many producers there are in the same business with him, how large an amount of their products has been sold during the year previous to that one, and the year previous and soon back, and then, by dividing his capital into the total capital invested in the business, he can find how much of that output should belong --. Sira :-:.'; . THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 267 to him. A simple problem, no doubt, but with no correctness in its application, and why not ? Simply because no one of his fellow producers, nor himself either, will be satisfied with the amount as he would thus work it out, but partly through natural aggressive-ness, partly though a desire to protect himself against aggressive-ness on the part of his competitors, he will seek to produce and to sell a little more than his share. He will devise new means by which he can bring his goods a little more in favor with the pub-lic than his rivals. He will reduce his prices, allowing himself a narrower margin of profits, hoping to make himself even by larger sales. No doubt in this way he will sell more goods than his slower going neighbor and will get some of the trade which would otherwise have gone to him. His neighbor's trade falls off and he finds that he provided for more trade than he is getting and is burdened with an unsalable stock. This is so much idle capi-tal and makes him so much less able to carry on a successful business. This single illustration, on a small scale, though it is, shows the inherent tendency of competition to make uncertain what share of a given demand will fall to a producer's lot. The same amount of goods may be sold, as he had anticipated, but he has not sold his share, for some one has succeeded in selling it ahead of him. We believe, therefore, that competition is the main reason. why the producer cannot foretell what the demand for his goods will be, and as it is this inability to foretell which leads to the mis-understandings between producer and consumer, the natural conclusion is that we should remove competition. We wish to make mention again that we do not argue that this is necessarily a beneficial or advisable means generally. ■ All we are concerned with is the question whether it will tend to remove the misunderstandings we have been speaking of. Of course it is not far to seek a means of accomplishing this. The means have been thrust upon us rather generously during the past few years. The tendency toward industrial combination, seeming to be the logical outgrowth of competition, appears, like Zeus, to threaten the reign of its progenitor. No doubt, it ap-pears startling to those economists who have been accustomed to regard competition with a kind of solemn awe, as containing a remedy for "all the heartaches and the thousand natural shocks 268 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. that flesh is heir to ;" but perhaps its partial disappearance may be attended by some results not altogether detrimental. The trust can estimate the demand which it will be called upon to meet. The total demand for a given article during any given period, does not vary through so large a range as to render this estimate one of great uncertainty. No doubt seasons of unusual depression or excitement may render calculations imperfect, but, all in all, the total output which the consumer stands ready to dispose of, is a matter of far higher certainty than the numerous possibilities existing when the producers are multiplied. By the immense amount of capital invested, the trust is better able to adapt itself to an unusual season of excitement or depres-sion. For example, the American Sugar Refining Company a few years ago built a new refinery furnished with the newest techni-cal improvements, to serve only as a safeguard in the case of a suddenly increased demand, or of stoppage in other factories. President Hadley in an article on Trusts, says, " A consoli-dated company has advantages in its power of adapting the amount of production to the needs of consumption. Where several con-cerns with large plants are competing and no one knows exactly what the others are doing, we are apt to have an alternation between years of over-production and years of scarcity, an alter-nation no less unfortunate for the public than for the parties im-mediatety concerned. A wisely managed combination can do much to avoid this. By making its production more even, it can give a constant supply of goods to the consumers and a constant opportunity of work to the laborers; and the resulting steadiness of prices is so great an advantage to all concerned that the public can well afford to pay a very considerable profit to those whose organizing power has rendered such useful service. Morever, the consolidation of all competing concerns avoids many unnecessary expenses of distribution. Under the old sys-tem, these expenses are very great. The multiplication of selling agencies involves much waste. Competitive advertisement is often an unnecessary and unprofitable use of money. Delivery of goods from independent producers, whether by wagon or by rail-road, often costs more than the better organized shipmeuts of a single large concern. All of these evils can be avoided by con-solidation." The same writer compares the trusts with an army, and the THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 269 comparison is apt for more purposes than one. The effectiveness with which a thoroughly organized and wealthy trust can meet an unexpected crisis, as compared with a large number of disorgan-ized and quarrelsome companies or individuals,is well paralleled by the difference between the manner in which a thoroughly equipped and organized army will overcome a sudden and severe attack, where a host of stragglers would have been cut to pieces. The very organization constitutes an element of tremendous strength. It must be concluded, we think, then, that trusts, would, or rather do furnish a means by which the future demand for the goods of the producer may be rendered more certain and hence they tend to remove the misunderstandings between the producer and the consumer. And now, how would such a remedy apply when we consider the matter of selling on credit. The man who sells, necessarily is not satisfied merely because he can tell how many goods his cus-tomer will buy. He wants to know how many he can and will pay for. Here in addition to the fact that their superior mastery of all the details of their business renders them more capable of judging of the credit of their purchasers, we seem to find another and very important fact. When competition exists, the producer is all the time seeking to hold out more inducement than his com-petitor. One of the common forms these inducements take is a sale on credit, and then competition arises as to extending the time of credit. Now, when the backbone of competition is broken, the trust no longer needs to use such means to secure purchasers. It stands in a position to dictate, to a great degree, its own terms, and can provide much more fully against dangerous credit than can be done where competition has full play. It is worth while, too, to mention the indirect effects flowing from those above mentioned. As the future is more closely anti-cipated, and as the sales made are more fully realized on than formerly, the financial embarrassments of various producers, under the old regime become a gradually disappearing quantity in the disturbing influences on trade. Of course the increased danger from the possibility of the trust must be omitted, but we believe it is overbalanced by the failures due to competition. When we entered upon the analysis of the causes which ren-dered demand uncertain, we supposed for the time being that the 'JO THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. demand, if known, could be met. We now return to that point to inquire briefly how the trust would effect that side of the ques-tion, though we have already incidentally touched upon it. Necessarily, one thing which renders uncertain the ability of the producer to meet a given demand is the possibility of dissatis-faction among his employees, leading to a strike. The same argument applies here as applies to selling on credit. The employee is, to a certain extent, able to make more at the kind of work he is engaged in than at any other, for the simple reason that he knows more about it. Now when there are a number of producers in the same business he knows, if he leaves one, he can probably find work with another, while, where there is but one employer, he loses this advantage. But writers on Trusts and Industrial Combinations in the United States agree that the information given by the working-men, themselves, seems to prove that generally a reduction of hours for labor, seldom a reduction of wages and occasionally, an increase, have taken place, especially where the workingmen were well organized themselves. "It is pretty clear that the laborers in centralized undertakings have not been worse off than in decentralized ones." So that it appears that there is less likeli-hood of a strike under such organization than under the decen-tralized form, so that less opposition to the free course of produc-tion would be met with here. And again the indirect results would be beneficial. For, as the demand becomes more certain, and there is less waste from imperfect attempts to meet it, more and more the production of the trust becomes near to a uniform standard and thus tends to give the workmen steady employment at regular wages, which is a strong barrier against a strike on their part. From the direct and indirect results, therefore, of the consoli-dated form of production, we are led to believe that it presents a means of establishing a far better understanding between the pro-ducer and consumer. That in some minor details the result might be otherwise we do not deny, but looking at it in its broad out-lines and confining our attention carefully to theparticularsubject we have under discussion, we conclude that trusts furnish a method for removing much of the friction between the producer and the consumer. 'oo. ItttfSM&B&iSaSB THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 271 SCENE IN THE FOREST, ORLANDO SOLILOQUIZING. IS it so that in this guise she sought me? My heart is sick within me. I'll take me back to a wilder region in the forest and there the remainder of my days I'll spend in mourn-ing for my lost love. Aye, virtue is modesty and modesty is a virtue and in that is she lacking. Seek her ? Speak with her ? But strike me dead if I may speak one word with her, I'll write it, fold it, give it to her and fly. 'Twill be a testimony of my love that was, that is no more. She merits now nothing but my scorn. If I had wit, I'd make her blush for very shame, if shame there be in her. But my last breath is drawn. Oh how I loved her to distraction ! I ought to go, but how to move? What is this feeling within me that holds me back ? Is it because the road is long and I am tired. No, 'tis an accursed lingering of that love that once so filled me that I knew naught else. Will it never be in my power to shake it off? 'Twassent from Heaven and not from earth; 'twas given by God and not by man. And yet I'll rid me of it. Can one so unworthy hold my affections thus ? I have a dim vague unrest, can it be removed ? I hear a rustle in the autumn leaves. Ay, here she comes, do I love her yet ? I know not how strong my passion is. I faint from fear. I see her so plain, yet must seem to see her not. She speaks— Enter Ros. and Alia. Ros. (Dressed as a woman.) I am much distressed and faint for succor, must I fall with my true love standing near me and aiding me not ? Alia. Perhaps he sees us not. Shall I go touch him on the arm ? Ros. Yes, ask him if he loves me still. Tell him if when I need it his love fails me it is not love. ' Alia. (Goes up and touches him.) Rosalind has come to seek her lover. Do you not. see her ? She is in need of your aid ? What ails you ? Your eyes look wild and you seem to know me not. Orl. If any of pity exists in your heart for me leave me alone. Alas, I know not what I say; I want you to leave me and yet I fain would have you stay. Ros. (Coming up.) Pray pardon me for calling you my lover, you received it with such melancholy dignity, methinks 272 THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. you do not half appreciate the honor placed upon you. Can I relieve you of the burden of the title? But why do you look at me thus ? Have I done aught against you ? Orl. I show no bravery by standing before you thus. I would that I could die before your very eyes to let you know what havoc you have wrought. But I leave you now this very minute to go far into the forest, perchance to take of my abode with a shepherd and thus spend my remaining days. I leave yet I stay. I cannot stir an inch, (aside.) Sweet Rosalind, has turned my head, Howl love her! Despite her faults, despite her lack of modesty.' Why came you to me thus? Tell me wished you again with your wiles to torment my morbid feelings. Ah, Rosalind, I still shall call you mine. Ros. Orlando, why did you think so ill of me ? Could you not see in my glowing eyes the story of my love. I would rather have had you woo me but bashful man makes maidens bold and love will find a way. We were parted but I could not abide far from thee. Wherever fate led I followed swayed by love alone. And as the days grow brighter and our hearts grow lighter we shall sing for joy, yes, joy without alloy. EDUCATION MORE THAN A MEANS OP GAINING A LIVELIHOOD. THAT education is a means of gaining a livelihood is a fact that needs no proof. Almost every day we are brought into contact with those who are gaining a comfortable liveli-hood by means of their education. In our day there are many others who are striving to get possession of the same means for no other purpose than that of making a living. It is to be regretted, however, that too many look at education as if it were a mere instrument for easily securing the things which satisfy their physical wants. Through this motive men have lost sight of the real and lasting value of education. I would not say that it is wrong to consider education as a means of gaining a livelihood, but I think that it is a very grievous error to consider education as having no other use or value. Indeed, education without any other purpose than that of a means of gaining a livelihood would be of little value to beings created as we are. THE GETTYSBURG MERCURY. 273 Herbert Spencer in his work on Education says, "In education the question of questions is how to decide among the conflicting claims of subjects and determine the relative values of knowledge. Every one in contending for the worth of any particular order of information, does so by showing its bearing upon some part of life. All effort, either directly or by implication, must appeal to the ultimate test of what use is it?" In other words, the writer affirms that the essential question for us to ponder is "How to live." Not how to live in the mere material sense only, but in the widest sense. The general problem which comprehends every special prob-lem is the right ruling of conduct in all directions, under all circumstances. In what way to treat the body; in what way to treat the mind; in what way to manage our affairs; in what way to bring up a family; in what way to behave as a citizen; in what way to utilize all those sources of happiness which nature supplies—how to use all our faculties to the greatest advantage of ourselves and others—how to live completely! And this being the great thing needful for us to learn, it is, by conse-quence the great aim of education. The leading kinds of activities which constitutes human life are: (1) Those activities which directly minister to self preserva-tion; (2) Those activities which, by securing the necessaries of life, indirectly administer to self preservation; (3) Those activities which are involved in the maintenance of proper social and political relations; (4) Those miscellaneous activities which make up the leisure part of life, devoted to the gratification of tastes and feelings. Is it not education which prepares the individual for direct and indirect self-preservation, for parent-hood, for citizenship, and for the miscellaneous refinements of life? Of course ideal education is complete preparation in all these divisions. Some one has said that education is to the soul what sculpture is to the marble. As the sculpture brings out of the marble the god-like form, the symmetrical proportion, the life-like attitude of the finished and polished statue, so education brings out of man as an animal man, a rational being, making him a complete creature after his kind. To his frame it gives vigor, activity and beauty; to his senses correctness and acuteness; to his intellect, power and truthfulness; to his heart, virtue. r

Transcript of an oral history interview with Dr. Carlos F. A. Pinkham, conducted by Jennifer Payne at Norwich University in Northfield, Vermont, on 9 January 2014, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Carlos Frank Armory Pinkham graduated from Norwich University in 1965 and later returned to the campus to teach in the College of Math and Sciences. His interview includes many details of his academic career as well as recollections from his military service and family history. ; 1 Carlos Frank Amory Pinkham, NU '65, Oral History Interview January 9, 2014 Interviewed by Jennifer Payne CARL PINKHAM: Vermont. JENNIFER PAYNE: And your (inaudible) [00:00:02] class? CP: Nineteen sixty-five. JP: Ah, did you have a nickname at Norwich? CP: Not really, no. JP: No? The yearbook has you as Pink, but I imagine -- CP: Oh, yeah, Pink is -- Pink is -- if anybody used a nickname it was Pink. Yeah, mm-hmm. JP: Oh, what made you decide to choose Norwich? CP: It was very easy. My father taught here, and so as a poor university professor this is the only place he could afford to send me (laughs) because I got tuition free. JP: What was his name and what did he do? CP: Vernon Curtis David Pinkham. So, again, four names. It's a tradition in our family. JP: What did he teach? CP: He taught economics. JP: So, you came to Norwich pretty much straight out of high school. CP: Yes. JP: And were you interested in science then? CP: I have been interested in biology ever since I was able to think. So, I knew when I came here what I wanted to do. I knew what I wanted to do when I was a kid. JP: Really? CP: Yeah. I wanted to get a doctorate in biology. At the time that I came here I wasn't sure what field in biology. It was really a choice between evolution and marine biology, but I knew that I wanted to do that.2 JP: Wow. So who was your roommate when you got here? CP: Oh, boy, when I got here -- I don't remember. I do know that he never finished and I don't remember his name. JP: Do you remember any of your roommates? CP: Sure, Joe [Koons?] [00:01:50] was my sophomore year roommate and he never finished, and then Don Graves was my roommate in my junior year; he did finish. And Bob Priestly was my roommate in my senior year. JP: No kidding? CP: Yeah. JP: That's great. Now I know you've looked at these questions. Is there anything in particular that you want to focus on or start with? CP: No, not really. Just go ahead and fire away and we'll progress as ever we can. JP: Yes, OK. Your activities when you were here were humongous. You were in everything. You were corporal, master sergeant, correct? Major biology -- you were in the biology club, one, two, three, four president -- president twice; geology club, one, two, three, four; honor tank platoon, three and four; German club one, three, and four Vice President; AUSA three and four; mountain and cold weather; winter carnival committee; regimental ball committee; Epsilon Tau Sigma Vice President. CP: That's the honorary society -- the academic honorary society. JP: And you were in Who's Who, also, I noticed in the yearbook. You were on that page, but the list doesn't stop. You were in the varsity club two, three, four; class honor committee to cadet cadre two, three, four; dean's list one, two, three, four; DMS, which is -- CP: Distinguished military student. JP: Wow. What was your GPA? What was your -- CP: I was second in my class -- JP: Wow! CP: -- and the person that was first in my class, Harry Short, and I competed for that position all four years and his is a sad story because he beat me and legitimately so; he was a very smart person. He went on to med school, got his MD and in my fifth year of graduate school, I found out that he had just been killed in an airplane crash that he was flying himself. So that was probably one of the saddest things that had ever happened and has 3 ever happened in my life -- to lose this very dear friend who was my arch competitor, but still a person that I had a lot of respect for. And really it was -- another aspect of that is that I -- up to that point I kind of thought of those of us who were in this top echelon as being untouchable. In other words, somehow we were just -- our lives were special and therefore they would not be expendable and that woke me up to the fact that in fact that was a very incorrect assumption to proceed with. JP: So what do you remember most about Norwich? CP: Oh, (laughs) there's so many things. I remember, and this is going to go on to one of the other questions, William Countryman, my favorite professor, and it's hard to pick a favorite professor because there were certainly three that I had -- William Countryman, Bert Wagenknecht, who was the botany professor at the time in biology, and of course, the ever traditional and ever present Fred Larson, who played a major role in my interest in geology. So, these are the three people that vied for my preferences as the favorite professors, and Bill -- but Bill because I had him more often than all of the others. I think he won out, but he was a very special professor anyway. He was smart, knew how to teach, and knew how to keep his classroom in stitches, which is something that is very important for a good teacher to have. It's something that I never developed as a teacher, I have to admit. JP: How did he keep you in stitches? CP: Oh, he just had great stories that were always able -- that always fit in to whatever lesson he was talking about and he had a great sense of humor. He was a very wonderful fellow. I ended up working for him, actually, when I came back here for a number of years because he went into private consulting and I worked for him. That's the story we can get into a little bit later. JP: Yeah. Because you went to the military after, but what was the hardest part? It seems like you probably did very well. Were you ever disciplined? CP: No, no. Should I have been? Yes. (laughter) JP: For what? CP: Oh, there were a couple of times I think when -- well, the one time that I remember specifically is when I was the executive officer of the third battalion my senior year. I think I had a soccer game. I think that's what it was, and so I went on the soccer game without thinking about the fact that I had to make sure there was somebody who took my place in formation because the battalion commander I knew was not going to be there. And so one of our class cut ups, who was just -- went on to become a great guy -- probably because he was a class cut-up, took over the battalion at the time and he made a pretty good farce out of it from what I understand, and I was about ready to get some demerits and I think my dad stepped in and prevented that from happening. I don't know, but I know I never got them.4 JP: What did he do? CP: Well -- JP: The farcical -- CP: Oh, what did he do? Oh, he just got up and mocked the protocol, the commands and everything. I don't know. I don't know exactly what happened. I just heard that it was pretty farcical, so -- JP: Norwich cadets cutting up? CP: Right, right. JP: No, say it isn't so! So what was your least favorite? Did you have a least favorite class here? CP: Well, I suppose it had to be English. And the reason for that was that I hated writing; I didn't know how to write. And, again, there's a story about how that can be -- how that turned around, but after I got out of grad school, and so I'll hold that until later. But at the time I hated the writing aspect of English. I didn't mind the reading aspect, the reading of the different literary assignments, that was fine, but, boy, I just did not like writing. JP: OK. What was the most important thing that Norwich taught you? CP: There are several things, but the first thing I learned, I guess, is that nothing ever lasts forever, and that was a lesson I learned in rook school, and it was a lesson that I think a lot of people learned in rook school because if you didn't learn that lesson, you couldn't get through rook school. That's a valuable lesson to learn if you're really being confronted by things that are difficult at the time. It's good to know that it can't last forever. The second lesson, and I think this is one that has probably, Norwich teaches more than anything else, and I have not seen it as something that is grasped by the powers that be as something that they need to promote, and that is that done properly, if you allow it to do it to you, allow Norwich to do this to you, you discover that your limits are way beyond where you thought they were, way beyond spiritually, way beyond physically, way beyond mentally because Norwich has a tendency to push people. It was pushing people when I was a cadet here and it still does push people and in ways that many other universities don't. And one good proof of that happened my sophomore year. In the eighth grade -- I've got to go back a little bit -- in the eighth grade is when we moved to Northfield because dad took the teaching position that year, and in my homeroom I went into the first day, and of course being an eighth grader boy, I was very interested in girls, and I saw silhouetted against the window this very pretty, cute blonde and I said, "Well, that's kind of a neat girl." And so I asked about her and found out that she was going with somebody else and so being an honorable person I decided I probably 5 better not interfere. But a little while later I heard that someone had said that she was interested in me, which of course was all I needed to do. So I approached her and we struck up a relationship that lasted through the sophomore year of high school and she eventually broke off with me about that time -- at that time because she thought I was pretty much so a namby-pamby, which I was, and then -- but I always had a crush for her and the sophomore year, New Year's Eve, I had a date that didn't come through and so on just a whim I called her up because she was a townie as well, obviously, and asked her out to New Year's Eve and she didn't have a date that night, so she accepted. And from that point on we were a couple and she has now been my wife for almost 50 years. JP: Awww, that's so sweet. CP: Yeah, so basically she just liked what she had seen -- the change in me that was -- that Norwich had brought about. JP: What's her name? CP: Christine. JP: Christine. CP: Yeah. JP: Wow, so Norwich helped her fall in love -- CP: That's exactly correct. And she'll admit that, too. I'm not making this up. (laughs) JP: Did the words "I will try" mean anything to you as a student? CP: It means -- it's hard for me to kind of express because I think I always felt that way, and I always was a little bit disappointed with it because I want to do more than try; I want to succeed. And I think that probably of all of the things that Norwich did for me, its motto was not one of the things that I carried with me throughout my career. I mean, I just knew I would try. Maybe that's why Norwich and I were such a good fit, I don't know, but in any event. JP: Well, you were obviously successful from an early time. Do you have any funny stories about life or people at Norwich? CP: (laughs) I don't know whether I want to tell one of them. Well, I guess probably the story I will tell is that the infamous panty raid -- JP: Oh, yes. CP: Roy [Bear?] [00:14:58], Dick Herbert, and myself had heard about this thing happening but we were at my house that night. And we finally decided after the news had come that 6 it was probably interesting enough that we ought to go over and take a look. So we went over after it had been done and interestingly enough we were watching -- after most of it had been done -- just to watch and at this point I have mixed emotions about whether I should have been involved or not, but at any event, one of things we noticed is that the police and the fire -- well, the fire department was using a lot of fire hoses on the few that were left and they were doing most of the damage with their fire hose that was finally attributed to Norwich cadets. They were breaking windows with the water and everything. And so we were standing around, and of course we looked like Norwich cadets because we had short hair, and one of the policemen came up to us and said, "Are you guys from Norwich," and I said, "No, not me, I'm from Northfield. I'm a townie," and that wasn't a lie because I was, but at that point in time we recognized maybe we better get out of there. So we got out and came back to my house and eventually got back into school. You know, they were checking everybody coming back in at that point in time and we had not been involved in the raid and so we -- this is our junior year -- so we were let back in, and again, I think it was partly because my dad vouched for me and said yes, they were at home at our house, and that was true. So, that's one of the episodes that I think is kind of humorous. JP: So you were questioned along with everybody else that had gone? CP: Yeah, sure, sure. JP: Interesting. Were there other panty raids? I had heard there might have been annual -- CP: I wasn't aware of it and certainly nothing as big as that. I know that one made national headlines and (laughs) -- JP: Yes, yes it did. What did you do after graduation? CP: Well, I was commissioned in armor, but because of my grades and because of other good letters of recommendation from my profs and performances on the GREs, et cetera, I was allowed to defer to active duty to go to grad school. And this is during Viet Nam so I was very happy with that. I wasn't going to argue that and so I had applied to the three -- by then I knew that I wanted to do evolution -- I had applied to the three universities in the nation at the time that were giving doctorates in evolution -- Harvard, University of Illinois and UCLA. Was accepted to all three with scholarships and decided I needed to get far away but not too far away. So I chose the middle of the two, University of Illinois, to go to grad school, and went to grad school there and had a great experience and learned and awful lot. And had -- in those days you had four years of total deferment to active duty to get your doctorate -- and four years to get a doctorate in biology is really difficult if not, you know, you have to really be smart, even smarter than -- I shouldn't say even smarter -- I worked hard, I wasn't smart, I just worked hard -- and smarter than me. So at the end of the fourth year I still hadn't had my degree, but what I did -- there were two things that happened. I found out that if I had a doctorate I could switch from armor to medical service corp., which is what I had originally put in for anyway, and so there was caveat on that, though. I had a two-year obligation, active duty obligation, in 7 armor. If I switched my branch then I would have to have another two years, in other words, a total of four year obligation. So this is where I think my Norwich training came in really, really helpful in about two tenths of a second I had the decision. You know, two years of which one would have to be in Viet Nam in a tank versus four years of which I would be applying what I had learned state-side in a research institution. It was a pretty easy decision to make and so I accepted the caveated offer to go to medical service corp. The other thing I did is we got in that fourth year you had an option on when to be put on active duty, and so I took the furthest one away from when I applied, which actually gave me almost five years of graduate study in grad school, and I cut it so close that on Wednesday night I defended my thesis, Thursday morning I boarded the plane for Fort Sam, officers basic course. JP: Wow! CP: Yeah, it was close. JP: Wow. CP: So, that was a very fortunate thing for me because getting into medical service corp. was fundamental to a lot of what happened to me from that point on. JP: In what way? CP: Well, because after officer's basic which is, you know, a three month assignment, I was assigned to Edgewood Arsenal and to the biomedical research lab there and my first assignment was to do research on a nerve agent poisoning -- the mechanism of a nerve agent poisoning, organophosphorus, the nerve agents, and to do that I had to kill cats. They were anesthetized and then we exposed them to nerve agents and monitored what was happening to them with some fairly sophisticated equipment and deduced from the responses what was going on. Well, you know, I'm not opposed to research of that sort but it was not something that I was really comfortable with and it turned out that the guy across the hall from me had just -- we were living in apartment houses at the time and so this is for married couples -- and so the guy across the hall from me had just gotten out of being the executive officer for the human experiment platoon. These were humans that had volunteered to undergo various kinds of experiments, most of which were with psychedelic kind of drugs. So it was kind of a difficult job to be in charge of them. And because he still had some active duty time, he was offered a position with the newly formed ecological research branch. Now his specialty was aquatics. He was a fisheries guy, marine and fresh water fisheries, and so he kind of fit right in and I'll explain why that was newly formed here in a moment. But he told me about this, and he said that they were looking for a person who had specialty in land and my, in addition to a doctorate in evolution, one of the -- the major area in evolution that I had worked on was mammals, mammalogy, and so I had a lot of experience with mammals as well as with reptiles and amphibians because one of my major mentors was Doctor Hobart Smith, who was probably the world's leading herpetologist at the time. So I had a lot of good experience that would put me into that position. So the next day I went over and talked to the newly 8 assigned director of the ecological research branch, Scott Ward, and told him what I was interested in and what my qualifications were and the next day I was reassigned to his branch. He had a lot of pull at the time. Why did he have a lot of pull? Here's why. He was a very sophisticated politician for one thing, but what he was heading up was a really dynamic and important endeavor at the time. Basically, Nixon, who has been maligned for a number of different -- well, for one thing, and that's Watergate, but really did an awful lot of good stuff during his presidency. National Environmental Policy Act, Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, diplomacy with China, et cetera. The list goes on. One of the things he did was he signed an executive order that unilaterally ended the open air testing of offensive, active -- of offensive and defensive biological and chemical weapons, and restricted any further research to just defensive research on biological and chemical weapons in labs. So, there were two places -- a number of places around the world where this research had been going on, two in the United States. One was in Dugway Proving Ground in Utah, the southern end of the Great Salt Lake desert, out in the middle of nowhere, which you would expect to be a place where this would be conducted. And there's some stories about that that I'll get into in the future, and then the other one was 17 miles northeast of Baltimore on Carroll Island, which is part of Edgewood Arsenal, an island -- a peninsula that jutted into the Chesapeake Bay. It was called an island because it was separated from the mainland by a channel of water, cooling channel from a power plant that was right there. And because they had stopped the open air testing the question was logically raised, was there any impact of the testing on the environment? Now Carroll Island it turned out -- well, both Dugway Proving Ground and Carroll Island formed these two groups to research this. On Carroll Island it turned out there were two parts to it. There was one part next to the mainland, and then there was an intervening large saltwater marsh, and then another part where all of the jutting out into the bay where all the testing had been done. And the two parts were fairly comparable to one another, so we had a very good control and a very good experimental area to do our studies on. So we started the study of that and that was the foundation of the Army's environmental ecological research effort, and so I was in on the ground floor of that, and that played a major role in my military career because -- well, one of the things that happened while we were there is as a result of the National Environmental Policy Act, we started getting into environmental assessments and environmental impact statements, one of the first groups to start doing that. And so, again, the procedures we developed and techniques and everything were eventually implemented -- became implemented into a lot of the Army approaches and regulations. To get a little ahead of myself I think it's important at this point to explain what happened at the end of the four years. I'm going to come back to Edgewood. At the end of the four years I was -- obviously my obligation, active duty obligation, was over and I thought, OK, this is it, I'm going to get out of the service. And I wanted to come back to Norwich and teach, quite honestly, and so I applied here but there wasn't a position available, and I really didn't know much about applying anywhere else, and I tried but I wasn't successful. But I had been offered a job at the sister organization out at Dugway Proving Ground as a civilian working, doing the same thing, extending what I had done at Edgewood. And I loved the job, I loved the people that I was working with both at Dugway, and by then we had formed this extended team where Dugway and Edgewood worked together, but I hated the environment of Baltimore, just didn't like the humidity in the summer, as a Vermonter I 9 couldn't handle it. So we took the job out at Dugway, and again, I'm going to come back to Edgewood, but I've got to finish this entry into Dugway because it's kind of a fascinating story. So, I had been out there many times and new I would love it, and so in order to make the final decision I had to take my wife and my two children out, then I had two boys, I now have three. So we left Baltimore when it was about 98 degrees and 150 percent humidity, not really, I mean, the air was just soaking. And we got on the plane and flew out to Utah and about 30 minutes out of Salt Lake City the pilot came on board and said the temperature in Salt Lake City is 110 degrees at which point my wife turned to me, she said, "As soon as we get off the plane we're turning around," because she was thinking 110 degrees with all of that humidity that we had just left behind, and I knew better. So I let her get off the plane and she looked around and she felt the air and she says, "I love it!" So I knew that we were sold on going out to Dugway. So, returning back to Edgewood, because we had these two wonderful control and experimental areas, we had a lot of wonderful data comparing two different community structures, those of let's say a species of trees on both places, fishes on both places, snakes on both places, amphibians on both places, mammals on both places, et cetera. And we had these wonderful databases. But at the time there was no way to really compare them because all of the mechanisms that were out there at the time, all of the methods that were out there at the time, were focusing on diversity, on measures of diversity, and we weren't interested in measures of diversity. We were interested in how alike are these two communities or how different are these two communities. So, the guy across the hall who introduced me to Scott, his name is Gareth Pearson. He eventually went on to become one of the directors in one of the labs of EPA, very successful career. JP: EPA is? CP: The Environmental Protection Agency. So Gareth and I sat down one night with this problem and a bunch of paper with some of our data on it spread out on the floor in his apartment and a six-pack of beer. And by the end of the six-pack, we had solved the problem, and we had developed an index that would compare these two communities in a very -- I've got to say clever way -- and in a very effective way and started applying that our data and then of course published it and this index, the Pinkham Pearson Index, is now regarded as the primary way to compare community structure. So we were very fortunate to be at the right place at the right time. I'm sure if we hadn't come up with it, somebody else would have. It's one of those things that's fairly obvious once you look at it, but, you know, we were there at the right time. JP: That's wonderful. I was hoping you would talk about that. CP: So we had a lot of fun. We did some great things. Great in the sense of they were fun things and wonderful to do. We started the -- we were the -- we, Edgewood, actually, the team that I was part of at Edgewood, really established the concept of the installation environmental impact assessment or statement where basically you go in to an installation, an Army installation, and you identify all of the resources on and around that installation and all of the activities on that installation that could impact these resources, and identified ways to mitigate the impact so that the installation could continue its 10 mission. And eventually out at Dugway as we continued the effort, because by the time I was at Dugway it was such a large effort that we needed to have both camps involved in this process. Another colleague of mine that I met at Dugway, David Gauthier, whom I also kind of took on as a person that I would work with the rest of my life, David and I were the co-editors of a seven volume -- became the co-editors of a seven volume treatise on doing ecological surveys at military installations, and one of the volumes was doing all of the procedures involved in doing an environmental assessment of an installation. All of the different topics you've got to cover and all of the ways you can cover them, it was a fairly extensive document. And still is -- its descendants are still being used in the environmental program in the military. So, I really enjoyed that part of my life. We got to go and I got to see lots of different parts of the United States. Never got away from the United States, but some of the really interesting installations where testing was going on of one form or another, whether it was vehicle testing or artillery testing or whatever, we got to go to because they were part of testing evaluation command at the time, which Edgewood Arsenal was part of, and that's where most of the environmental documentation was happening. One of the things -- and again, it's a matter of being at the right place at the right time, very quickly or very soon after we started our effort at Edgewood there was an operation at Edgewood that had been going on for years and their procedures, their environmental procedures, were just terrible, and we told them that they were just awful and that they would have to do something about them and they snubbed their noses at us. About six months later EPA caught up with them, newly formed EPA caught up with them, and the directors, whom we had said you better do something about this, ended up going to jail. JP: Really? CP: Yeah. So that all of a sudden gave us the notoriety or the fame that we needed to have to get everybody's attention and from that point on we got to do some pretty neat stuff. And going from coast to coast and seeing things, you know, I saw my first rattlesnake, I saw my first copperhead and things of this sort which were fun. In the wild, you know, turning things over and finding them there, which is part of our technique, and developed further techniques for looking at -- finding whether or not a military operation had impacts. I think one of the fun ones was Redstone Arsenal where a government operated -- a government owned, civilian operated (GOCO) facility had been operating during the Second World War manufacturing DDT. Every time they had a bad batch they just threw it out the back door. So although the facility had been destroyed, long gone, this batch was still there. Now what happened is that Redstone Arsenal called us there because they knew that there was this stream that was entering a bayou or a backwater of the Mississippi that didn't have any life in it and they wanted us to find out what was going on. So what we did is we used a technique which, I don't know whether we developed or had been used by others, but in any event, you go up and every time you find a branch in the river, or in the stream, you sample both sides and when you do that, you know, one, every time we went there, one branch was fine, the other branch was dead. And we kept following it back up until we found this huge area, a two or three football field size area of old DDT, and it became one of the nation's hazardous waste facility -- sites -- that had to be cleaned up. So it was, you know, it wasn't anything that the people there were 11 trying to cover up or had been responsible for, it had been done a long time ago and we were able to find that. Another program that I think was a lot of fun is that my boss, Scott Ward, was a falconer and this was in a time when falconers were -- he was a falconer when it was legit to be, OK to be, a falconer. But then the Endangered Species Act came along, which again, was another Nixon thing, and that prevented falconers from being -- you know, without having a license. You had to be licensed to be a falconer and had to have a legitimate reason. Well, he was a veterinarian and so he got his license. He was a wheeler-dealer and he made sure that he got his license and then he started working with peregrine falcons and their recovery. As you may know, about that time DDT, again, here's this DDT rearing its ugly head, had been bioaccumulating in predator species, the peregrine falcon being one of them, so that to a level that the eggs were thinning, the shells were thinning and the parents were breaking them in the nest as they were trying to sit on them. So, there was a real decline in peregrine falcons. In fact, the peregrine falcon south of the Arctic had gone extinct. So, Scott was involved in studying their recovery and to do so he became the coordinator of the North American peregrine falcon banding program, and he would go to a number of different places, Greenland, Hudson Bay, I think Alaska, and band fledglings in the nest, and then we would go to Assateague Island in the fall and in the spring and trap peregrine falcons to see if any of them had been banded to find out where they were coming from because at that point in time we really didn't know very much of any -- the peregrine falcons that are now south of the Arctic are all derived from peregrine falcons that were in the Arctic. It's a different subspecies but basically it was the only opportunity is to take these fledglings and bring them back here, and that was a Cornell program, did a wonderful job, and breed them in a captive breeding program and then reintroduce them to the wild. But knowing we just didn't have any information on what their flight pathways were, where their migration routes were, and so Scott was instrumental in coming up with that information. And so I was able to go with him and, you know, this is a military assignment. (laughs) JP: It's a great job. CP: Somebody had to do it, right. And spend a week or two weeks in the fall and in the spring on Assateague Island trapping peregrine falcons and birding and all sorts of stuff. So that was a lot of fun. We got to know a lot of interesting people because Scott made his way through the people who had influence at the time. I think one of the more interesting things is that, for example, we would often capture peregrine falcons with -- peregrine falcons -- he would also do it on Carroll Island -- capture either hawks or accipiters or falcons and they would have feathers in their beak or we would find kills in the woods, and part of our study was, you know, what had they killed? And so he would take these feathers and sometimes just one or two feathers they pulled out of the corner of their bill and send them off to a gal at the Smithsonian Institution, I can't remember -- I think her name was Roxy or something -- and she would identify it just from a single feather what the bird was. So that was part of our ability to get some additional data. What are they preying on when they're at different places in their migratory pathway, et cetera. So, that was another, you know, it was just a lot of fun things that we got to do and we would seine for fish. 12 JP: And we're back. CP: OK, so I'm trying to think of -- in the back of my mind there's one more story I want to tell and I can't come up with it right now. So those were fun days. We really had a great time doing all that sort of stuff. Oh, I know what it was. Another story was with Chandler Robins. Now, Chandler Robins is, I think he's still alive, one of the greatest ornithologists in the country. He wrote a book on birds of North America and Scott knew him well, and so I remember one night we had been out doing some night surveys and he had a recording of a bird that he couldn't -- all he had was the song and so we got on the phone the next morning and called up Chan and said, "Chan, I want to play something for you. Can you tell me what it is?" So we just played it for him over the phone. Chan says, "OK, so let me see. It was probably about nine o'clock at night, it was raining slightly and the sound is coming from the middle of a marsh, am I right?" And Scott says, "Yes," and so he says, "Well, it's a Black Rail," which fits all of those things. JP: Wow! CP: So this guy really knew his stuff. (laughs) That's the kind of stuff that we were exposed to for all of this. It was a lot of fun. JP: Did you photograph it? CP: Oh, no, no because it was at night. But I photographed a lot of birds. In fact, because I spent so much time going around doing this sort of stuff, my life list of North America north of the Mexican border is about 420 birds, 420 species. That's not anywhere nearly as many as it could be if I were a serious birder, but just because I have travelled so much, it's a lot larger than a lot of birders do have. JP: That's a lot of birds. CP: It is. JP: And you were outside and making the world a safer place. CP: Hopefully so. JP: That's pretty amazing. CP: Yeah. JP: Wow. I'm always amazed by you guys. CP: Yeah, it's fun what we get to do.13 JP: What about the Oxford Round Table? I know I'm jumping ahead, but I want to make sure we get that. CP: All right, so the reason -- I want to also hit my military career because I think that's important and, oh, we're doing fine. So let's hit the military career and then we'll come back to the Oxford Round Table. JP: Absolutely. CP: After I got out of Edgewood, I told you I was thinking about getting out of the service, my brother, my oldest brother, who at the time was a colonel in the Reserves, said, "No, you've got to stay in," and he explained to me why I needed to stay in. He said, "The benefits that you would accrue for retirement and for Space-A travel and medical coverage, et cetera, are just fantastic. You've got to stay in." So I did, I decided to stay in. And to get to the end of that story before I come back I stayed in for 47 years or whatever it was, I mean, 37 years. I retired at 60 from the Reserves and when I retired it was in '06 and I was the senior, maybe we should say old man of preventive medicine science officers and as such I was the mentor for about 700 preventive medicine science officers in the Reserves, the National Guard around the world. And from Norwich, this is when I was doing this, I sent out a weekly newsletter. Every Saturday I would come down early in the morning and I would work until one or two o'clock in the afternoon putting together this newsletter of all of the events that were important to preventive medicine science officers that had happened in that week and sent it out to them. And it got to be such a big thing that many of the active duty preventive medicine science officers were subscribing to it as well. JP: What was it called? CP: The Preventive Medicine's -- Reserves Component Preventive Medicine Science Officers' Newsletter, very imaginative title for it. JP: But very useful. CP: But it was very useful. JP: Extremely useful. CP: Yeah, it was during the Iraq war and during Pakistan as well. The beginning parts of -- I mean, Afghanistan. JP: So what kinds of things would be in it, for example? CP: Oh, there would be health reports from around the world, alerts about outbreaks of different things. There would be announcements of upcoming conferences that -- one of the things that preventive medicine science officers -- most preventive medicine science officers are in the Reserves are not assigned to a unit. They are what is known as 14 individual mobilization augmentees. They're on their own basically and they have to get their 50 points a year on their own. Because all of us have advanced degrees, we don't fit into most units and if there is a unit, it's probably across the country that we could fit into, and some of the people fit into those units, they just had to travel and they did their two weeks of active duty. And so it was very important to be able to get these people, all of these people for retention purposes if nothing else, to recognize all of the opportunities they had to get points and part of my role in this was to provide these opportunities -- show them the opportunities that they had and make sure they were taking advantage of them. JP: That's terrific. CP: So that was another side of it. And unfortunately, I think after I left I found a successor and I think he, after a year or so, found that the job was so demanding that he had to back out and I don't think anybody else took over. But it happened during a time when it was really important too because we were so widespread and some us of involved in conflicts around the world that it was important for us to have that at that particular time. I'm sure it would still be valuable today, but I don't think anybody has followed up on it. But then that's another thing where Norwich guys have a tendency to see a need and fill it. Another thing, which also is a Norwich story, I think, is to get my points, one of the ways you can get points is to be a liaison to West Point, and what that means is basically that you are helping to guide the applicants for West Point from Vermont or from whatever state you're in, through the process so that they either are successful or not. Well, it turns out in Vermont I think we have a higher percentage of people that get in for reasons which are not worth going into here than most states. But you still, one out of ten, one out of 20 would make it. So, one of the advantages of that is it gave me an opportunity to direct the nine or 18 failures to Norwich which many of them did come here as a result. So that was a good recruiting opportunity as well. And Norwich -- West Point preferred to have of all of those senior military academies, they preferred to have either West Point or Norwich personnel fill those positions because they knew that they would do a good job and a serious job. So, let's see, what else is here? All right, we can go on to the Oxford thing. So, I, as I've stated earlier, had always been interested in evolution and ever since I was able to remember, I recognized that the beauty around me that I was fascinated with in nature, the butterflies, the flowers, the trees, the frogs, whatever I was attracted to at the time, was just not by chance but brought about by a creator. Now I grew up in a family with a Christian influence and background, but I myself, I personally never understood who Jesus Christ was and his importance to me, and just recently I kind of figured out a good way to explain that. As a kid I had understood that Christmas was all about me. And Easter somehow had something to do with this person called Jesus Christ but I wasn't sure what it was. And quite honestly I really went through childhood, school, here, graduate school, and well into my military career until early into Dugway assuming that. I now know that I got it totally backwards and in fact Christmas is all about Jesus and Easter is all about me and you and all of us, the rest of us who need to have the salvation of Jesus. Now the story, I mean, I'm not going to go there because I'm not sure that's appropriate for this but I just want to set the stage for this. So I had always felt that this creator must be really awesome, but because early on, and I don't know why, 15 I understood because I'd been reading well enough, you know, extensively enough, I understood the evidence for evolution and the fact that evolution was a mechanism. So, I began to become convinced that that God used evolution, we'll call this creator God, used evolution to bring about us, to bring about the universe, to bring about everything, and so I spent a lot of my time, in fact, I thought when I get out of grad school that that's what I would focus on but the military took me in different places. And I wanted to see if I could understand more about how evolution worked and how a creator might have brought this about. So when I got out of Edgewood, went to Dugway out there, there was -- obviously this is Mormon country and Mormons proselytize and they tried to proselytize Chris and I, and Mormons are wonderful people and my boss is a Mormon and I have an awful lot of respect for them, but we were invited to a Mormon gathering and treated wonderfully and they were a very friendly group of people and as we were going home, my wife and I were talking to one another -- no, we weren't talking to one -- we were very silent and one of us, and we don't remember to this day who said, "What did you think of that," and the other one said, "Well, my spirit was troubled," and the other one agreed that that was the case. And so we began looking at our roots and it turned out that at that point in time the chapel at Dugway -- now, let me explain something about Dugway. Even though I was a civilian because it was a remote post civilians were allowed to live on the installation, so we were living on the installation. So the chapel had just undergone a change in chaplains and my wife had started going -- after this incident she started going -- and she came home after one Sunday service fairly early in the process and said, "You got to listen, you've got to come and listen to this guy because he's talking about the evidence for God and for belief and, you know, the science of it all," and I said, oh, come on, this guy can't know what he's talking about. So, I went and come to find out he did. He had some very good compelling evidence. And so that started me on a year and a half of questioning, of investigation, of seriously considering the possibility that, in fact, this God that's talked about in the bible is, in fact, the same God, creator -- Lord God creator of the universe that I had been thinking about all along and worshipping myself. And after a year and a half of reading the bible, of seriously going to church, of going to adult Sunday school, of talking with people, et cetera, I was finally convinced and turned my life over to Jesus. So, from that point on I thought, well, OK, from here on I'm going to get back on to the track of this thing and it didn't happen, it didn't happen. I still continue the environmental movement and then about -- well, six years, six and a half years into being at Dugway my -- oh, I got to do the science fair. Don't let me forget to do the science fair. My wife's mom started showing symptoms of Alzheimer's and her dad began to try to deal with it. He was retired at the time. She never did work. And he was having some difficulty and as time went on it became increasingly obvious to us that Chris needed to go back and help her dad take care of her mom and it was a good time because at that particular point in time we had progressed enough in our understanding of what the Word says, the bible says, we felt that we had an obligation to honor our parents and come back here and so at the same time I had been working with a colleague of mine that we rode to work with. By then we had moved off the installation and we were living in a small town called Terra, Utah, which was ten miles east, roughly east, of the main gate Dugway Proving Ground, and it was across -- the ten miles were mostly across Skull Valley and the road was ten miles of absolutely arrow-straight road. So you got in your car, if you were awake it didn't matter because 16 you just aim, lock the steering wheel in, and ten miles later you were at the front gate. And so we had a lot of time for discussion as we were doing this and we had come up with an idea for -- we were both avid gardeners -- we come up with an idea for preserving, allowing us to start our garden early using some -- he was a chemist and I'm a biologist -- using some very well known, well established properties of water and when it freezes it gives off heat called the heat of fusion and that heat could protect your plants from freezing. They do it in orchards, for example, by spraying water. So we came up with a device and it took us a little while to come up with it, but we came up with a device called the Wall O' Water Plant Protector. And so I figured, alright, this is going to give me my key, we can go back here and this is going to provide enough income, but it became obvious to me that this was going to take awhile for this to grow and so I had been going to officers advance course with three people. One of them was a chaplain that had been involved with my coming to the Lord. Another one was a person that I met in Salt Lake City in Utah. This is Salt Lake where the course was, who was a business major and so the business major heard about what we were doing because one of the nights we had to talk about something we were doing and I talked about it and he said, "Oh, this is a great idea. I want to help you make this happen." So he became the president of the company and he got things rolling as far as the business side is concerned. And so I was convinced that this was going to be my key to being able to come back here. Well, as I said, it very quickly became obvious it was not. It takes, like any new idea, almost any new idea, it takes a long time to get going and I decided well I better consider trying to find a job back here. Well, it turned out that Chris had been flying back to help her dad for just a little while and on the same flight she ran into Roy Bear who was flying out Midwest for something, I can't remember what it was, and they got talking, of course they knew each other from here, and he said, "Well, you know, I have been teaching anatomy and physiology in summer school, and I just don't want to do it anymore. So there's an opportunity for Carl to teach that." Well, I had never, you know, my major was at the population level or above. I mean, my focus, and I had not really had much in the way of physiology. But I, you know, this is an opportunity, I couldn't refuse this. So I put in for it and I got the job and that was important because it filled in a part of my education that was lacking because I started focusing not at the population level and above in the levels of complexity, but at the species level and below in levels of complexity. So, it really rounded out my education by forcing me to learn the material. You know, if you want to learn something, teach it. And so all of that played a role in -- as I was going through and teaching I was seeing things that played into very nicely into this idea that, you know, there really is a creator behind all of this. And so in the middle of all of this I suddenly get a letter out of nowhere. I have no idea, and I've asked them and they won't tell me where they got my name, but I got a letter saying that the Oxford Round Table is having a session on faith and science, the great matter, and would I like to be involved in it. And my initial reaction was I'd like to be and I've been thinking about this a lot and I've got a lot of thoughts on it, but, boy, do I have time to put something together and my three sons said, yes, you've got to do this, Dad. And so I said yes and I put the paperwork through Norwich and they said yes and so I was invited to go to the Oxford Round Table and make a presentation. And that's when I had to formally put down all of my thoughts. Since that time, and that was published online and since that time I've had a chance to present it elsewhere and to develop the thoughts a lot more 17 and the evidence now is even more compelling in my mind than it was even when I did it at Oxford. The primary thing that we have to recognize is that -- and this is something that makes sense if there is a creator behind all of this, is that science now fully recognizes, there are very few scientists who don't agree with this, that the universe began with an event called the Big Bang, 13.82 billion years ago and that accompanying that event the universe was imbued with about 20 fundamental forces constants and masses whose values are such that if they weren't exactly what they were we wouldn't be having this recording and that does two things. It says A, there's a beginning, so if you've got a beginning logically you've got to have something who begins it. An uncaused cause as it's sometimes referred to, and, also, that that beginning was accompanied with some very suspicious characteristics. Now, science by definition, and properly so, eliminates -- it doesn't eliminate. It admits it cannot investigate miracles. It is just not designed to follow miracles. Science can give us insights that I think can help us to understand whether or not miracles are possible, whether or not there is a God. And the point that this revealed at the time was that we have enough information, science has enough information about that moment of creation or of coming into existence of the universe, let's not call it creation at this point, that it has to be explained or it can be explained only by invoking infinity because only with infinity can you get all of these 20 or so values coming together with their precise values. Presumably they're independent coming together and having a situation where you would have a universe come into existence because the probability of this happening is so, so very, very tiny, all of them with their values. So, there are about eight ways of the sciences come up with explaining this and all eight of them can be reduced to this use of infinity and I say there are three ways that we invoke infinity. Science embraces two. One is that the universe is infinite and we're in the part that works with these constants, these values, or the other is that there's an infinity of universes and we're in the one that works, or that the universe is created by an infinite mind. And quite honestly, at this point anyway, we cannot distinguish among those three. Each of them is arguably just as logical as the other. There are many scientists who would say that the third one is not acceptable and I would challenge them the way Ravi Zacharias and other people challenge them in that maybe they have some personal biases that they need to look at seriously. But be that as it may, I, in looking at this and accepting this, discovered that there are eight phenomena that keep recurring again and again at what I call essential conditions that in the evolution, in the progress, the evolution from the Big Bang to us whether it's cosmological or chemical or biological evolution, there are requisite conditions that have to occur and every time you find a requisite condition, you identify a requisite condition, there are eight phenomena that are associated with it that happen, that are met, and so it makes me wonder if there's this pattern, is there something behind the pattern? And that's where all this comes in and obviously I believe there is, there is a creator God behind this. JP: So this paper generated quite a bit of -- CP: Quite a bit of thought and discussion and continues to. Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the other reasons we wanted to come back to Norwich, to continue on in this vein, was that I had as part of the coming to a belief and a faith in Christ, and being at a military installation, it was logical that I would find Officers Christian Fellowship. Officers 18 Christian Fellowship is a fellowship, as it states, of officers in the military and this is the Army -- the US branch of it, but there's worldwide groups called by different names, who embrace Christian faith and use it, try to use it, in their life and in their leadership roles. And so I encountered it and became convinced that was something that Norwich could benefit from. And so one of the reasons we came back was to form a Christian fellowship at Norwich using Officers Christian Fellowship as our basic model. So we came back in 1982. Chris preceded me by about four months and so we -- I arrived here in March -- permanently arrived here in March of 1982, getting ready to teach that summer school course, and I began immediately looking for a student that would be interested in forming a Christian fellowship and I couldn't find any. I looked and went to the chapel, asked around, I was having no luck. And one day I was walking on the upper parade ground, I don't remember why, but I was walking on the upper parade ground towards Jackman on the western side and I saw a cadet coming toward me and the Holy Spirit said to me, "You see that cadet? He's the one I want you to talk to about starting a Christian fellowship." And of course my reaction, my immediate reaction, was yeah, sure. I'm so concerned about this that I just created that thought in my mind, and I said I'm not going to pay any attention to it. But the closer I got to this cadet, we were walking towards one another, the more I felt the Holy Spirit saying, "Do it, do it," and it got to the point where I knew that if I hadn't done it I would be in disobedience to God. I would be disobeying the Holy Spirit and so I stopped him. I said, "Young man, you probably are not going to understand what I'm about to tell you and you're going to think I'm nuts, but the Holy Spirit just told me that I'm supposed to talk to you about starting a Christian fellowship at Norwich," at which point he stopped, I mean, he was stopped. He kind of went, "You're kidding me," and kind of fell back, took a step back, and he said, "As I was coming towards you, the Holy Spirit was telling me that I've got to talk to you about starting a Christian fellowship at Norwich." So, that started the Norwich Christian Fellowship. The cadet's name was John Pitrowiski and we started a fellowship that was in 1982, and that must have been -- I'm gathering, I'm thinking it might have been in April, I didn't put the date down. And so that was still in the days when I think Norwich went further beyond May. I think they went to late May or beginning of June, and so it wasn't very long but he had a couple of friends from classes beneath him, Joe Saltsman being one of them, who wanted to be part of this. And so it continued from that year on. And so last year we celebrated our 30 th year together and it's been a great trip helping Norwich students who are inclined to follow the Lord and find out about Officers Christian Fellowship, et cetera. So John Pitrowski, I lost track of him because he was a senior and he graduated a month or two after we formed the fellowship. And I had assumed that I must have done this in the fall of '83 because, you know, I had to have had a longer year. I had almost a year with him before he left that was my assumption. So I went through all of the year books from '80 -- let's see, '82, it would be '83 on. I couldn't find his name so I -- you know, did I somehow get his name wrong? But I asked Joe Saltsman and he says, "Yeah, I remember John." So I knew I had it right and one day -- actually, about a year before our 30th, it all of a sudden dawned on me. I said, "Do you know what? Is it possible that he was in the class of '82?" So I got out the '82 yearbook and sure enough there he was. Come to find out he goes to a church in Waterbury very close to the church I go to.19 JP: You're kidding. CP: He's been around all of this time. JP: Oh, no kidding. CP: So, on the 30th, which was his 30th reunion of course, we got together and had a big celebration. JP: That's wonderful. Do you have time for STEM? CP: Sure, sure. What happened is as I -- when I was in the eighth grade at Northfield I entered the state science fair with my shell collection. Now, in this day and age you couldn't do that and that's not really important to understand, but one of the things that I had really gotten involved with as a kid, and why I was considering marine biology, is I loved shells. I loved the animals that made shells and I loved shells themselves because I'm kind of artistic and I kind of like art stuff as well. And shells are very beautiful, they're geometric, they're colorful, they're wonderful things. So I was naturally attracted to them. So I entered that in eighth grade, won first place in the state science and math fair, and then again in my senior year I did the same thing, only I did some research and did some dissections and had some studies that I had done. Again, not the kind of stuff that we now do in the science fairs, but at the time it was. And again I won first place. So I was kind of sold on science fairs. So from that time on I offered to judge in science fairs. So at the University of Illinois, in Utah I judged, in Maryland I judged, I think, and I'm not 100 percent sure whether I did or not, but I know at the University of Illinois I did and in Utah I did. In Utah, because I was coming in from Dugway Proving Ground I was coming in as an Army judge and it was part of my assignment, my military points to do this as a military judge. So I did it for a year or two and one of the guys that I was doing it with had been working with the Army Research Office and their program of judging the International Science and Engineering Fair. So he'd been part of the Army judges for them. And he said, "I'm going to have to get out of this. Would you like to take my place?" So I said, "Well, yeah." So that year the international fair was in San Antonio and I went there and became a member of the Army judging team, generally about 30 judges every year from the Army would judge the International Science and Engineering Fair and give wonderful prizes. We sent students to the Plum Blossom Festival in Japan or the Fortnight in England, in London. You know, when the Army judges came around the students took notice. So it was a great assignment and a great opportunity and they treat the judges really well. Afterwards they have a big shindig for them with lots of cheese and lots of hors d'oeuvres and lots of wine and stuff, and I said, boy, this is a deal! So I became sold on that and did for the next 25 years served in that capacity almost every year. A couple years I didn't make it and in the last five I was the Chief Army Judge in charge in all of those 30 judges and also got some other assignments related to that. I became the Army judge for the National Junior Science and Humanities Symposium, which is a similar kind of thing done at about the same time of year, but rather than having a poster session, which is what the International Science and Engineering Fair poster presentation judges. The National Junior Science and 20 Humanities Symposium has a platform presentation. So it's a different -- you can, you know, sometimes the same projects can be in both but there are different ways of presenting the information. So, that convinced me that, I mean, I was already convinced, but that certainly drove the nail home that I was very much still interested in STEM and then I came to Norwich and of course the science fair was being held here and so I immediately became a judge in the science fair and recognized that Vermont State Science and Math Fair was not, it was one of the two or three states not involved in ISEF, and said, you know, I've got to get it involved but I just do not have the time to teach and to do the Vermont State Science and Math Fair component that would get us involved with ISEF. But I made a pledge that I would, to myself, I guess, that once I retired from the military in 2003 because that was when I turned 60, that I would make an effort to get us involved with ISEF. And at that point I had been working with Mary Hoppe and, oh, come on, I'm drawing a blank here. We'll have to get that back up. What's her name? [Martha McBride] Anyway, who had been the two directors, working with them to kind of be an understudy. And so the next year I said I'm going to continue this process as an understudy and I'm going to link us up with ISEF. Now, the main thing about ISEF is you send, at that time, one winner on to international -- from your state fair, on to the International Science and Engineering Fair to compete there, but that requires money and of course the science fair had no money. I mean, it had very little money that they were -- the major initiative that I saw I had to do with come up with a way of getting money and that has become a really time consuming operation. We raise in terms of actual awards and prizes and trip money, we raise about $25,000 a year now and it takes a lot of time to do that even though I have -- almost all of that is coming from established partners, as we call them, because every year you have to renew it, you have to send out emails, you have to send out letters, you have to follow up on them. Some of them follow up themselves, some of them you have to follow up on. You have to record all of this so you know what you did because we have over 120 partners. It's trying to keep all of them straight. You know, what conversation you had with which one three weeks ago is just, you know, you've got to keep accurate records of that. So it's a very time consuming process. But we are really making progress, we are making headway. We are getting more and more students involved in science fair projects and of course the problem with our country -- one of the problems with our country today -- is that many of our students look at Science Technology Engineering and Math, STEM, as being over their heads, over their ability, and we want to make sure that students understand that in many cases that's not the case. It's that they haven't had the opportunities to get excited by it. For example, when I was in the science fair as a senior, that was during the space race and I remember going from the state science fair to the New England science fair and that was during the New England science fair was the -- we heard over the speakers an announcement that the US had successfully sent our first astronaut into orbit. And so those were exciting times and those are the kinds of things that get people's kids' imagination going. Well, we needed something like that because let's face it, if we're going to retain our position as strategically as number one in the world, we have got to have a good Science Technology Engineering, and Math. I had recognized, having been travelling a few other places in the world that the US, high school STEM scores were very woefully low and yet, here we are number one in the world. How can that be? Well, there's a number of reasons, but one of the reasons is, what I had discovered was happening at Norwich, is that between 21 high school and graduating from college the role of the university in this country is to push our kids. It's really important that we push our kids and make them learn the stuff that other kids were learning in high school elsewhere around the world. And, for example, in Japan they're pushed hard, they do well in high school and they score well, but my oldest son, English as a second language teacher in Japan, so we went over to visit him and it turns out that their college over there is almost a lark. And so we can catch up with them and we do catch up with them and we pass them. Certainly other reasons for this is we get a lot of influx from the best of the foreign countries as well, too. I'm not trying to downplay that. But it became obvious to me that we really needed to do something positive and we need to do something positive to encourage our young kids to discover that science, technology, engineering, and math are wonderful and they're exciting and they're full of all kinds of challenges and opportunities and experiences that you're not going to get any other way and I think we're beginning to get that. JP: That's wonderful. You have done so much and you have been -- CP: I've been blessed. I haven't really tried to do this or do that. It's just that things have fallen in my path and I think because of Norwich I don't hesitate, I don't pull back from taking advantage of them, but I really have been blessed with lots of opportunities, lots of fun stuff. JP: You have done a lot of really amazing things. The Pinkham Pearson Index alone, notwithstanding the other stuff. Do you have any relatives at Norwich besides your dad? CP: My oldest brother, the one who said that I should stay in the military, in the reserves, David, who lives in Montpelier, he's still around. He's 87 I think. He was in the Second World War and after the war he came to Norwich for two years in engineering. He actually showed me a paper he wrote on nuclear power (laughs) that at the time of the Second World War was still a concept, and then he transferred to Cornell to finish his degree in engineering. So he's part of Norwich. I have two of my three sons attended Norwich and youngest, well, the middle son went to Vermont, VC, Vermont College, when it was part of Norwich and my youngest son came here and majored in psychology and actually has gotten a masters from Norwich in the masters degree, online degree program in criminal justice management or administration. JP: What's his name? CP: Kristian Pinkham. JP: Kristian Pinkham. Amazing. The Pinkhams at Norwich. CP: And the middle one is Kreig Pinkham. JP: With a C or K?22 CP: K. All my three sons are with K's. Kevin is my oldest. He's an English professor carrying on the family tradition of teaching down at Nyack College in New York, and Kreig is the director of the Washington County Youth Service Bureau, which is really responsible for homeless and run away youth in the state of Vermont. And my youngest son is a DEA agent in El Paso, Texas. JP: Wow, that's amazing! Gosh, I want to ask you a little bit about what advice would you give a rook today about how to survive and thrive the way that you did? CP: Well, the first thing is, again, remember -- and I still tell them this -- the two things that I think are important. One is that nothing lasts forever and so you can get through the rook school, the rook experience. If you keep this in mind it will keep you sane. And secondly, that if you allow it to, Norwich will push you and will help you to develop as an individual, but you've got to go along with the flow. You can't resist the flow. You've got to take advantage of the opportunities that it provides. I think that's really important. And of course, obviously, the students that I come into contact with through Norwich Christian Fellowship, I say to continue to develop your spiritual understanding, your spiritual walk, your spiritual self. And as a teacher I think I made it clear in my courses. On the first day of course I said, first day of class I said, "You've got to understand that I am a Christian and my worldview is formed by that -- is informed by that. I will not mention anymore about it in class. You will hear an awful lot about evolution in class because I'm an evolutionary biologist and if you feel that there is a problem between the two, I'm more than happy to talk with you about how that problem is not real, but that's got to be done outside of class." And so I made it clear in all of my classes that that was something that I -- that they needed to know about me in order to be fair and open. JP: Wow. How do you define leadership or have you already, do you think? CP: Well, to be honest with you, I've not given a whole lot of thought to what leadership really is, but on the spot I would have to say that leadership is a willingness to lead and a willingness to -- openness to see opportunities and to think creatively about these opportunities and how you might use them. And that's a good question because it brings up another story that I think I would like to relate to. And that is the story of the Russian scientist. Shortly after I left Edgewood as my individual mobilization designee assignment, I was assigned back to Edgewood from Dugway. And the two weeks that I was at Edgewood, my boss had -- because he was a North American peregrine falcon banding program coordinator, had gone to Russia, not during that two weeks, but he had earlier gone to Russia and met with and formed a working relationship with his Russian corresponding -- his Russian equivalent, and he and another Russian scientist were scheduled to come to the US during this two weeks that I was going to be assigned to Edgewood Arsenal, to Scott's group. And so this was during the Cold War, but there was some efforts at detent and this being something where there was no weapon system involved or anything like that. It was something as regarded by the government as being worthwhile. So I was invited by Scott to help him get his -- he had just bought a dilapidated Southern mansion in Maryland to get it up kind of a little bit in shape for this 23 meeting. And so I helped him do it and the Russians came and we spent an evening toasting one another and going through bottles after bottles of vodka and, again, my Norwich training came through because I was able to drink two Russians under the table. I'm not overly -- well, yes, I'm proud of that. Let's face it. I don't drink that way anymore, but at the time there was a value to it because when I was at Norwich, I drank like a Norwich student. So, anyway, in the process of that evening, we had a conversation and it was very obvious to me in this conversation that something was wrong, and I'm going to explain what was wrong, but I've got to go back just a little bit. In grad school finished all my courses except for one, population genetics. Population genetics was taught by a newly minted post-doc who had the audacity to expect his students to think. Well, I was a good student because I was fantastic at rote memory, I wish I still were, but at that time I was really good at it. And I wasn't used to a course where they said think and I got a 48 on the final exam and he was good enough to give me a D in the course. I had been essentially a straight A student and that shook me up as you can well imagine. And so I had to ask myself, is thinking a skill that I don't have? Is it something I'll never have or is it a skill that can be acquired? So I started researching thinking, creative thinking, and discovered that it is a skill that can be learned that every human being is born with it but quite often the school system teaches us out of it. In my case it was perhaps the school system, but more important, understand I love my father and he was a wonderful person, but he was an old guard, old school military guy. It was his way or not. So very quickly I learned it didn't do any good to think, it didn't do any good to explain things to him, my side of the story, because there was only his side of the story, so I stopped learning how to think. And so I got to this moment in grad school, this crisis moment, and discovered that I didn't know how to think. From the studies, however, from taking courses and everything I learned how to think and that's why I've got several patents and I've been able to come up with the Pinkham Pearson Index, et cetera. But as I was talking with these Russians, it became very obvious to me they were suffering from the same problem I had been suffering from. It was dangerous for them to think. So the only way they could come up with any thought whatsoever was to just randomly go all over the place and hope that somewhere sooner or later they would stumble across something that was useful and relevant. At that instant I knew we had won the Cold War. It was clear to me that they were fighting an impediment that would just prevent them from doing anything that we had to worry about. And, in fact, that's the way it turned out. JP: That's a nice -- that's a good story, big picture, little picture. Is there anything else that you would like to say? Anything about the Citizen Soldier or -- CP: The Citizen Soldier is a very, very important concept and I'd like to think that I embody it. The reason I feel that way is because I think I embody it, but the soldier doesn't always have to be, obviously, a fighting individual in the sense of a combat. Combat service and combat service support are two very, very important aspects of the military and you can be in combat, and my hat is off to everyone who is in that position, whose life is at risk, willingly puts their life at risk for their country and for their comrades, but there's also a role for those of us who are a little bit less brave, like myself, who want to serve and have a gift to give to the country but can give it in a way where the risk to life 24 and limb is not anywhere nearly as great as it is in the combat arms. So, I think the Citizen Soldier is a very important aspect that we need to be aware of and promote. And I'm proud to say I'm a part of Norwich which founded the concept. And I generally don't miss opportunities when I'm talking with youngsters to point that out to them. JP: Is there anything else you'd like to add? CP: Probably, but I can't think of it right now. I think that's about it. JP: That's about it. Thank you. CP: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for the opportunity, I enjoyed this. This is fun. JP: This has been fascinating and I think it's going to be fascinating for people to hear. I think it's going to be very interesting for people who are interested in the different things you've spoken about and to hear you say them. So thank you. I'm going to hit stop. I need to do a little intro. And we're back with Carl Pinkham. CP: So the parting Norwich story while I was a student has to do with three events that happened my last three days at Norwich. On Friday I was commissioned a second lieutenant in armor. On Saturday I was married to Christine Waite who has been my wife for almost 50 years and on Sunday I graduated. JP: That's a busy -- CP: That's a very busy time. (laughter) JP: That's good. CP: That's it. JP: Thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE