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Tom L. Van Cleave, May 29, 2013 ; The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ; This is an oral history interview with Tom Van Cleave conducted on May 29, 2013 by Ruby Licona. During the interview, Tom discusses his memories of attending Weber as a student as well as his career at Weber State University. Tom retired from Weber State University in 2011 as the Director of Planned Operations. ; 52p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Tom L. Van Cleave Interviewed by Ruby Licona 29 May 2013 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Tom L. Van Cleave Interviewed by Ruby Licona 29 May 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Van Cleave, Tom L., an oral history by Ruby Licona, 29 May 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Tom Van Cleave May 29, 2013 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Tom Van Cleave conducted on May 29, 2013 by Ruby Licona. During the interview, Tom discusses his memories of attending Weber as a student as well as his career at Weber State University. Tom retired from Weber State University in 2011 as the Director of Planned Operations. RL: I'm Ruby Licona, faculty member in the Stewart Library at Weber State University. Today, May 29, 2013, we are talking with Tom Van Cleave who retired as Director of Planned Operations at Weber State in 2011. He has been on campus for quite a while and we thought it would be good for him to tell us his perspective of things that have occurred on campus during that time. Tom, why don't you start out telling us a little bit of your background and how you happened to become associated with Weber State? TV: I was born right here in Ogden, Utah 66 years ago. I went to Ogden High School and graduated in 1965. I took my first class here at the university in 1966. I was working at the Marqus ROT Corp as a painter at the time, and I took a drafting class here. Actually, it was a blueprint reading class which sparked my interest. At the time, in order to register they had the old punch cards. Registration was in the shop area of the technical education building where you showed up and went place to place to get your cards so you could register. I took most of my drafting classes in the technical education building. I'd take one class a quarter because I had a job and a family, so I couldn't really stay focused with my education. I would take a few classes and drop out and then take a few more classes later. RL: You were not a four-year student. 1 TV: I was not. I was most definitely a nontraditional type of a student. I went from job to job and I ended up at a place called the Amalgamated Sugar Company. You would know it as White Satin Sugar. I furthered my education there working for a mechanical engineer. His name was Harvey Bingham. I will never forget this man as long as I live. He was the mentor type. I would ask him a question and every engineer had a boatload of books, so he would pull a book and say, "Okay here's the section. I want you to read this, then come back and we will talk about it." In that process, he became more of my mentor than anything else. In 1973, the engineering section I worked in as a draftsman decided they wanted the engineer group at the sugar factories. They wanted me to move to Nyssa, Oregon, but I wanted to continue my education. Nysaa, Oregon is 50 miles away from Boise State or anyplace where I could get my degree. As a consequence, I had to decline that. I ended up working for a family-owned business called Precision Built Homes which later became Precision Built Systems. It didn't take me too long to realize that the growth opportunities were just not there. I saw an ad in the Ogden Standard Examiner that they wanted an architectural draftsman. I applied for it and so did two other people that I worked with at Precision Built Systems. I interviewed with Bob Folsom, who was the Director of Campus Planning at the time. Bob was an architect and a very intelligent guy. RL: Was he Director of Campus Planning for Weber State? TV: Yes, that's right. Anyway, I interviewed with him and then time went by and I thought the university had forgotten all about me. I didn't know what the 2 bureaucracy was. I was used to private industries where it was, "You want the job? Okay, you're hired." They finally called and wanted me to come to work. Needless to say, I was elated because I had a long association with Weber State and I really thought this was going to be ideal for me. Plus, I could continue my education. I used to ride motorcycles at the time. I had a Yamaha YZ 400 and I was into racing and things like that. Just one week before I came to work here, I had a motorcycle crash and separated my shoulder. Of course, it was my right shoulder. RL: Which you used as a draftsman. TV: That's right. Bob Folsom hired a two-armed draftsman and a one-armed one showed up. He kind of looked at me and was a little bit surprised that I showed up with my arm in a sling. I thought, "Oh no, I'm out of here." He dealt with it pretty well. I learned how to draw by grabbing my sling with my left hand and moving the pencil with my right. That was back when we did all board drafting. I realized that this was my opportunity and I had to make the best out of it. Bob was very encouraging in that he wanted people to take advantage of what Weber had to offer. RL: That was in 1978? TV: Yes. That was 1978 that I was hired in. I'd take classes and I finally got into the mechanical engineering program which was basically nonexistent prior to 1979. Over time, I was able to take enough classes to finally graduate. I had graduated with my Associate's in Engineering Graphics in 1974. 3 RL: When did you graduate with your Bachelor's? TV: That wasn't until 1986. RL: Better late than never. TV: Oh yes. I'll tell you, it was a tough uphill climb for me. I had a family to support and a lot of times I'd have to work two jobs to make ends meet. RL: Do you remember any of the faculty that you worked with when you first got here? TV: I most certainly do. I took my first drafting classes in the engineering technology building on the west wing down on the south side. Later on, I took more classes at what we used to call the "TUB" which was the temporary union building. It was on the east side of building four. I remember taking drafting classes there in the wintertime and you could almost hear the wind whistling through. It was an old barracks is what it boiled down to. That's where the union building was housed in the late 1950's while the permanent union was being built. You never knew what you were going to get in that building. One of the more memorable professors I had was Park Guymon. He was a chemistry professor. He was tough, but even though I took those classes over 30 years ago, I still know the periodic chart fairly well. He worked us hard, but he was fair with everyone. He was one of the best professors I have ever had. He was super intelligent and just a great guy. Especially when you'd get him talking about horses, he could talk about horses forever. He was one of the better ones. Another professor, Carl Wood, in the mechanical engineering program was a hands-on type of a guy. He might still be here, or it's just been a few years 4 ago that he left or retired. He could give you not just the theory of things, but the practical application of things. It was the same thing with Robert Parker. Dr. Parker was the type of professor that when you walked into the classroom and sat down, you'd have everything in front of you and a pencil in hand because the second he hit the door he was walking, talking and asking questions. By the time you realized what he asked, he would call you up to the board to explain the problem. You had to be on top of your game to stay with Dr. Parker. He was a great guy. RL: What did he teach? TV: He taught strength of materials, finite element analysis, and other classes within the mechanical engineering program. RL: You mentioned that while you were with Amalgamated Sugar, Mr. Bingham was a mentor for you. Was there a faculty member at Weber that took on that role when you came back as a student? TV: Some did in limited roles. Carl Wood was one and Bob Parker was another. There were others, but the names escape me right now. RL: You've mentioned several and obviously they made an impression, but sometimes somebody stands out more than others. TV: If anyone it would have to be Park Guymon. He was not in my major, but he taught me how to work hard, how to be prepared and how to think and rationalize things out. I have to tell you a story about a final exam I took from Park Guymon. I remember the final exam I was pumped, I was primed, I was ready. I walked in there and he handed me the test and I'd been studying and studying, but I 5 started down and went through a whole page and none of the questions looked familiar to me. I started to sweat. That's when you wish, "I hope the hole opens up and swallows me right now." I looked around and everybody has just got their head down and they're going. I thought, "I'm a dead man." Finally, on the second page, I found one that I knew. That started the process rolling. I took the full two hours to do that test. When I was done, I walked out to the parking lot on the east side of the science lab building and I couldn't find my car. I had no clue where that thing was. As I walked around I thought, "Oh my heck, somebody stole my car." It finally occurred to me that I had parked on the west side. I'll never forget that chemistry final as long as I live. RL: Did you finally go back and answer some of the things on the first page? TV: Oh yes. I got the ball rolling and I think I got a 92 or a 90 on that test. It was one of those feeling I've never had a feeling like that in my life—the "I am sunk" feeling. If anybody was a mentor I think it would be Park. I still see him to this day and I stop and say, "Hi," to him. His wife is absolutely wonderful, I remember her too. He is just a great guy. It's been all these years. RL: He's been mentioned to me by several people, not necessarily in interviews, but around different situations. Actually, one of my surgeons and another physician also had him as undergraduate students here at Weber State. You're right. They are delightful people. TV: I had a lot of professors, but he's the one that just stands out the most. Dr. Parker was from Chicago and he had kind of an accent. You'd ask him a question and he'd say, "Yea, yea, yea, yea." That was one of the more humorous 6 things. Then you'd take some of his exams and you'd think, "Oh my, the humor is over." Another one I had was Norman Smith. He taught thermodynamics and heat transfer. I remember Dr. Smith gave us take home exams. I had never had a take home exam before in my life. I thought, "Alright, we have a take home exam. I am living large. Life is going to be good." Of course, I postponed it and started working on it on a Sunday and we had class on Monday. I must have spent eight to ten hours working on that one exam. It was a total nightmare. I learned really fast about take home exams. I had a couple more and they lived up to the expectations. He was a very intelligent man. We did a lot of formula derivation. Back then I was thinking, "Okay, I really don't need to derive those formulas. Guys a lot smarter than me came up with them so they must have figured it out so I don't have to, right?" No. We went through them step-by-step. It got you thinking. Rather than thinking, "I need this class to get out of here." It got you thinking about the applications. He was a brilliant man. He didn't stay with us too long before he moved on. I think from every professor I had I took something with me. Carl Wood was just one of the nicest guys you ever want to be around. I remember in one class he had the class down to his house for a barbeque after the class was over just to treat us. He was very patient and was able to explain everything. I was able to use a lot of that on the job through the analysis type of thing. RL: So you were working full-time at that time? TV: Yes. RL: Were you able to take advantage of a tuition cut or anything? 7 TV: Back then we were on the quarter system and we'd get five credit hours free and 10 percent off at the bookstore. I remember my first drafting book I bought at the bookstore. I thought, "This is outrageous." It was this big, thick drafting book. I think it was $22.00. I about died. RL: That was a fortune at the time. TV: It was. Considering I was making about $2 an hour back then, so that gives you an idea. RL: What about on the work scene? You mentioned Folsom. Were there other people that functioned as mentors for you in the workplace? TV: I replaced a guy named Wayne Venable. Wayne had a heart attack and died rather suddenly. At the time, we only had about 7,200 students here. When I was hired in, there was me, Bob Folsom, and a guy named Fred Kendall. He (Fred) was the nicest guy I've ever run across in my life. Fred was the type of guy who would never speak an ill word about anybody. He was just that type of a personality. There was also a secretary and a student aid. That was it for the whole campus. They called it Campus Planning and Construction. As things grew and progressed we were able to hire more people. A lot of what I learned was from the guys in the shops. We were in the Architectural Services Department on one corner of the campus and the guys in the shop were up on the hill in what is now the Facilities Management Building. I tried to involve these guys in the shops especially in the practical applications. I could punch all the numbers in the world and I knew what had to happen and knew the design parameters of a particular piece of equipment. But, then you 8 start getting into installs and what actually makes it work and how to control it. That's when I started talking to the guys in the shops. I gravitated toward these people because they were very smart individuals and very good at their trade. I learned a lot of practical things from the people in the shops. There were guys that had been plumbers for 30 years and guys that had been electricians for about the same amount of time. They knew how everything was supposed to work. I learned a lot from those people. I also learned a lot from Division of Facilities Construction and Management inspectors. They were on the construction end and they managed most of our major projects on the campus like the new buildings and major remodels and things like that. RL: The things that we now have to contract out. TV: Yes. I just had a vast variety of influences on that. Bob was very much an architect and more of an artist. I remember I took a class in art and architecture. I remember Bob saying that if engineers designed all the buildings on campus, they would all look like boxes. They have to have an architectural element to them. Historically, engineer types and architecture types have clashed. The engineer types want mechanical rooms with all the space in the world, while architects say that's very valuable space that could go to other things. There's always this clash type of a thing, which leads me to my next step. In 1991, Weber State College became a university. I remember that quite well, they had quite the celebration. I moved from working for Bob and he said he was disappointed to lose me because I'd like to think I did a really good job. I did get a lot of compliments from the faculty. 9 RL: You had been here at least ten years by that time. TV: It's interesting because I only planned on spending four years. I knew when I had it good. It didn't take me too long to figure that out. Anyway, I went to work for Dave Maxson, who was the Director of Physical Plant. Dave was one of the nicest guys that ever walked the face of the earth. He had a hospital background. My job was to bridge the gap between the architectural side and the practical side. I knew both ends of the business. I think I was successful in doing a lot of that. When I was working for Bob Folsom, I got here right after the Dee Events Center was dedicated and the Engineering Technology building was dedicated the year after. The next building was the Wattis business building. We had so much trouble with that building from the operations and maintenance end. It had stacked fan systems so if you have something go wrong with one fan system you have to disassemble one to get to the other. It had very cramped and compact mechanical rooms. It was very impractical. It had great big cooling coils on the fan systems and you had to actually cut a hole in a wall to get the old coils out and the new ones in. Be it my influence or complaining or whatever you want to call it, I was the go-between. As the next building, student services, was to be built it was the first time we were actually involved in the planning process. I went to all the planning meetings and the construction meetings. Sometimes my suggestions weren't taken well and other times they were. It was a give and take kind of a thing, realizing that the architects had their point of view and the maintenance side had our point of view and we were trying to make those two 10 things mesh. Student Services was the first building that I was heavily involved in and it was a valuable learning experience. I learned a lot from a lot of people. I was able to temper my own feelings. That's when I learned how to realize the other person's point of view. I take a lot of pride in that one. RL: It's growing up. TV: Yes, that right. Of course, it served me well as my career progressed with personnel issues. I worked for Dave for about ten years. Back then, we had a Director of Architectural and Engineering Services, Director of Physical Plant, and we also had a Director of Electronic Systems and Repair whose name was Sid Jensen. I had one of these projects going on that we had to have his help on right away. I went down to explain my problem to him and Sid says, "I need all this paperwork filled out in quadruplicate. It has to be signed off by anybody and everybody and you're six weeks out to get the parts." He proceeded for about five minutes and I thought, "My gosh, I will never get this done." He finally talked himself down and says, "Oh okay, will this afternoon be okay?" Sid was the type of guy that had to get a chunk out of you. He had to do it and he loved it the entire time. Once you caught onto him, he had a heart of gold and he'd do anything in the world for you, but you'd have to endure it first. They did some studies across campus and they decided it didn't make a whole lot of sense to have three separate directors running three separate entities and they should all be working together. RL: You needed an umbrella to cover. 11 TV: That's right. They hired consultants to analyze our whole situation and that has evolved into what is called the facilities management department. Mike Perez was the guy that showed up on the scene. He came from SMU. They had a structure at SMU that was kind of what we were looking for, so Mike knew the ropes. He was quite a personality and you always knew when he was in the room. He was just the type that would attract people, very outgoing and a smart guy. He was a super sharp individual. We were used to the old ways of doing things and Mike started out by learning the ropes. He and his wife came from Texas. RL: When did he come here? TV: It must have been in 2000 that he came. RL: Is he still here? TV: No, he went on to the University of Utah. Anyway, I remember they were born and raised in Texas and I remember the day he got here we had an April 1st snowstorm. His wife had one of those big trench coats like what the football players wore with a hood. She was all huddled up and she looked like, "What in the world did Mike drag me into? The frozen tundra of Utah?" Their son, Michael, was out throwing snowballs and he thought it was the greatest thing. I'll never forget the look on his wife's face. Mike went through a whole series of meetings, planning sessions and mentoring and we evolved. RL: What was his title? TV: At the time, he was Director of Facilities Management. 12 We used manage this place by reacting. If there was a problem, we reacted. There wasn't anything that was planned as far as maintenance was concerned or anything preventive. We ran it until it broke and then we repaired it. We had limited resources and limited technology to enable us to start planning this. We had started our facilities management work order system just before Mike got here. The realization was that we needed to start planning better. I remember the old Maximo program that just basically generated work orders. Prior to that time, the work orders were scribbled on a piece of paper and we called whoever on the radio to go fix it. That was the extent of it. We started refining. He was only with us for about three years, but he made a lot of changes. He brought us all under the same umbrella. Don't get me wrong, there was resistance. To Mike's credit, he pulled it off. He's a high energy guy who would send emails at three in the morning or he'd be in Texas and send me emails. The University of Utah recruited him so that gives you an idea of the type of job he was doing for us. He replaced one of the legends down at the University of Utah, Randy Turpin. Randy even had a building named after him at the University of Utah. He was the Director of Physical Plant or Plant Operations. RL: They stole our person to improve their situation. TV: They had a void they needed to fill and they needed the right guy to do it. RL: What was your position under him? TV: I was the assistant director under Mike. When Dave Maxson, Bob Folsom and Syd Jensen all left within a short period, I assumed the role of the director. Dave had brought me along enough that I knew how things worked. I knew how the 13 budget worked and I was able to use that information that Dave gave me to manage that for quite a spell. It must have been six months or better before they hired Mike Perez. After Mike left, there was another long period because they couldn't find the right person for the job. We had interview after interview as the university was looking for the right person. I was managing the department during this time period also. RL: You mentioned that Kevin Hansen managed Air Force bases all over the world. Did we recruit him away from Hill Air Force Base or did he come in from elsewhere? TV: He retired from the Air Force. He'd managed Air Force bases in Anchorage, Alaska and Cape Canaveral, Florida. We're talking multi-million dollar budgets that he managed. He retired from the Air Force and ended up in Logan City Public Works. This was a long process that we went through. We had candidate after candidate showing up, but it was just not the right fit for us. The administration wanted the right person for that job. I remember the first time I met Kevin I thought, "Oh my gosh, a retired colonel, we're all in a boatload of trouble." We had several downloading sessions. He brought me under his wing more or less. We talked department-to-department and person-to-person about how we each saw things. We had several sessions of that. We were going to a conference in St. George and we talked the whole way there. Kevin saw things in an entirely new light than we were used to seeing. He said the first thing he noted was that the Administration Building had an old wooden sign. It was actually a metal sign framed with 4x4's and it was kind of leaning up against the west wall. 14 Those were the kinds of things he saw, but we had been seeing it all along so it was just part of the landscape for us. That's just one small example of what he saw. RL: Is that when we went through that major signage change all over the campus. TV: That's right. He wanted to turn this place into a first class organization. It wasn't without pain, don't get me wrong, because we had people that were pretty much entrenched, that could not see the light and resisted. You're bound to get resistance with any change. I remember back when we used to go down to the state surplus and get our service vehicles. By the time they hit state surplus, these things had been used to death. RL: 300,000 miles on a little truck. TV: Right. That's not outside the realm of possibility. We were trying to piece things together and it was a mish mash of things. We had an old Popsicle truck that the plumbers used. That's where we were at the time. Kevin was able to change that through budget management. You'll notice all the service vehicles now match. They're all in good shape and we rotate them. We don't have to worry that much anymore about them starting in the wintertime. That's just another example of the things he accomplished. RL: That relates back to some of the old Mike Perez thinking where you don't just react, you plan ahead. TV: That's right. It adds a professionalism that was lacking. At the loading dock at the facilities management building, we had a lineup of old beat up chairs that were scavenged from gosh knows where sitting on the dock out there. The guys would 15 go sit out there in the summertime. These things were worn out and beat up. We had a yard full of transformers that were taken out when we upgraded from 4160 volt to 12470 sitting out in the back lot. Our back lot was a junk yard. Kevin really drove the point home that this was not the way were going to run this facility. The chairs disappeared, the transformers disappeared and he was going to change this into a first-class organization. He asked me one day which section within facilities management I wanted to manage. I told him immediately that I am more in tune with the maintenance operations. That's how my job title got changed to Director of Plant Operations. I managed what they call skilled crafts like the electricians, the plumbers, the carpenters, the painters, and HVAC personnel. RL: The ones who would be licensed and certified in the outside world. TV: Right. I also oversaw energy management. I remember my first energy project when Dave Maxson was still here. It was in 1995. We got a grant from the state of Utah for changing light bulbs. We had T-12's and we were changing them to T-8's. There were all these people trying to promote certain things and that's where the analysis I performed came in. RL: What does T-12 and T-8 relate to? TV: These are florescent tubes that have two types of ballasts in them. They had the old magnetic ballasts and the new ones were electronic. That's when I started to get involved in the energy management end. It kind of got to be my passion. I did a lot of analysis of the wattage and the light levels to determine which was going to be the best. They had several different types out there at the time. People 16 were trying to promote T-10's and a primitive form of LED's. I finally had to make the decision while working with other engineers and the first building we changed to the new T-8's was the science lab building. That was the first building we retrofitted under this grant that we got from the Department of Energy for the state of Utah. The Lind lecture hall soon followed. At the time, Allied Health Science building phase one was already in place and they were looking at the Allied Health Sciences Building phase two. I had to convince architectural engineers and administrators that the T-8's were the best thing to put in the new health sciences building rather than the T-12's. I had to show them all the energy efficiency and so on. The numbers just really fell out and I was able to convince them to put the T-8's. The Allied Health Science building phase two was the first new campus building to have the T-8 florescent tubes in it. RL: Then you went around and retrofitted the other buildings. TV: That's right, over time. We still stumble into the T-12's sometimes, but pretty much all of them are now T-8's. RL: The experience you had with that is what led to your part-time position that you took on after retirement. TV: Bingo. RL: That's energy analysis? TV: Yes. I'm the Utility and Energy Analyst now. I do the fun stuff. I tell everybody my story and say that I basically went from four meetings a day down to one or two a 17 week, which suits me just wonderfully. I think I got away from my passion when I got promoted up. RL: We've gotten a picture of how you've progressed through your work career here on campus. You said you grew up here in Ogden, do you have early memories of Weber prior to coming here as a student? I know people talk about Weber and I'm sure at that time were referring to it as Harrison High School, kind of looking down their nose. After people get here they have a whole different perspective on things. I've also spoken to some people who remember running around on the campus and sledding down the hills when we got snow. What are your early memories of the campus? TV: My brother graduated from the old Weber College down on 25th Street. I remember the Moench building. I couldn't have been any more than five or six years old when he graduated. I remember the gym especially because of all the ramps going up to the spectator area. It was so fun for a five of six year old kid to go running down those ramps. RL: Was that the building down by the public library? TV: Yes, that's was old Moench building. It was a very striking building. I'm sure you've seen pictures of it. My best friend, Brent, used to live near me on 28th Street just below Harrison and moved right across the street from the current university site. There used to be a big white two story building at the front of campus at about 3400 South. It had a pond out in the front that had little mosquito fish and goldfish in it. We'd sneak in there at night and try to catch them, but were very unsuccessful at that. 18 RL: It sounds like they were the kind of thing that even if you had caught them you couldn't do anything with them. TV: We couldn't, but we were kids and we didn't think too far ahead. I remember the old married student housing on the west side of the Browning Center where the visual arts building is now. Another friend of mine had a sister that lived in there with her husband back in 1963 or 1964. I've had a long association with Weber State. RL: You've been here as a student and as an employee under quite a few different presidents on campus. I would imagine that when you came President Miller was still here? TV: President Miller was still here, but he was no longer president. He was still very much a presence. I was working for Bob Folsom as a draftsman and this gentleman came through and stopped by to talk to me and wanted to know how it was going. I didn't know this guy. He just seemed like a pretty cool guy. RL: Was he president when you came as a student? TV: Yes he was, but I didn't know him personally. I remember President Miller and his wife also. They were just the sweetest people you ever want to be around. After he came through that day, I went to Bob Folsom and asked, "Who's that guy that just came through?" He said, "Oh, that's President Miller." The president's home at the time was right at the top of 4100 South. It is office space for the athletics department now. His wife lived there. I met her and got to know her better when I was working for Dave Maxson. She was just the most wonderful person you ever want to be around. She was very appreciative of 19 anything you could do for her. She would bring us treats up at the office every once in a while when I worked for Dave. She would just stop by with donuts or cookies as a note of appreciation for what we did. RL: Each administration had its own flavor, doesn't it? When you started working here it would have been President Bishop? TV: I came right after President Bishop left. President Brady was the first president that I worked under. I got to know him and his wife somewhat. They had a home here on Edgehill Drive. The college bought it off the market, but it needed some renovations. I was put in charge of the renovations, so I got to meet with President Brady. One thing about President Brady, he had a closet full of blue suits. Every time I saw him he was wearing a blue suit. His rationale was that it was one less decision he had to make in the course of a day. I worked with his wife, Mitsy, quite a bit. She was a wonderful lady. She was highly appreciative and a very classy lady. RL: You actually were in a position where you interacted with them at their home and not just on campus. TV: That's right. RL: Any particular incidents that you remember with that home? TV: President Brady liked to play basketball and I remember we put a basketball court in his backyard. I made all the drawings and our carpenters did all the form work and poured the concrete. That was one of the more notables. We made some changes to the lighting and landscaping over there that she appreciated. I 20 was able to work with them at their own home which is one of the little perks of my job. RL: I've heard a lot of stories about his walking around the campus knowing a lot of the students, and of his interaction with the faculty. Was he just as approachable for the staff? TV: I was nervous about approaching people like the president who was really up there when I was just a lowly draftsman at the time. I was hesitant to approach him. I remember he had signs all over campus. He would write his thoughts and put them on signs and put them around campus. That was another little thing that he did. He was a very nice man, but very formal. I interacted much better with his wife who was less formal. My interactions with him were strictly on little projects. RL: After he left, we would have had President Nadauld. He was also fairly formal, wasn't he? TV: At times. I've got to tell you a funny story about President Nadauld. This was before the Stromberg Center was built. We used to have faculty-staff basketball leagues at the old Swenson Gym. President Nadauld was very competitive and he loved basketball, but he is not all that big of a man. At the time, I was about my present size. I was in better shape, but I was a pretty good-sized boy. Anyway, we were playing basketball with teams and I went out to set a pick. President Nadauld ran into me and then hit the floor. I went about as white as your sweater. I thought, "Oh my gosh, I just decked the president." I thought my employment was over, but he actually got up and he smiled about it. He said, "Nice pick." There's still a guy on campus that will never let me forget that. His 21 name is Mike Whetton, and every time I see him, to this day, he reminds me of the time I decked President Nadauld. We used to have fishing derbies at the campus in the pond. Physically challenged kids would show up and we'd plant fish in the upper pool and the guys from physical plant would go down and help these kids catch fish. You'd see these kids that are confined to wheelchairs who would just light up with their first fish. It was so rewarding to witness that. It was an annual thing with President Nadauld. After he left, the derbies pretty much died off. I really thought that President Nadauld was a very personable individual. I appreciated what he did, especially with that fishing derby. That was an indicator of what the man was really like. He was very compassionate and just a good man all the way around. RL: He was president when I arrived here. From my perspective, I didn't approach him because he was the president. There were a couple of times when we interacted and he really wasn't unapproachable, it's just what you build into the position. When he left, we got Paul Thompson. He made a lot of changes on campus and had more of an emphasis on recruitment and diversity issues in terms of expanding the faculty and bringing in more people of color. I don't know if that began with President Nadauld, but I know that there were internships that he and Bob Smith made possible for faculty members and there was more emphasis for students. The campus face has changed in terms of the student population with more international students and Asian, Latino, and African American students. What have you seem in terms of the makeup of the staff? 22 Since you have worked with people on the staff in different buildings, did you notice any particular changes as far as diversity when we started having the push on campus? TV: Not so much immediately. I was on the construction end. One of my favorite people on this campus is Forrest Crawford. RL: Absolutely. TV: He is absolutely the greatest guy I have ever met in my life. RL: He started out here as a football player. TV: That's right. I'm going to digress further. There was a guy here, Darnell Haney, who used to play football for the Oakland Raiders, who came from Utah State. I knew Darnell because I was coaching little league football at the time in Washington Terrace and I coached his son. That's how I got to know Darnell. I remember I was doing a project in the union building and I was talking to Lynn Kraaima when I noticed his eyes kind of shift. At the time, there was a promotion going across campus about a new club and restaurant opening up in town called Bigfoot's. Anyway, I looked at Lynn kind of funny and then this great big furry paw hit my shoulder. I turned around and the most enormous creature I've ever seen in my life in a Bigfoot costume had ahold of me. It was Darnell Haney. I think I set the world record for the standing high jump thanks to Darnell. I wasn't directly involved in the diversity effort, but I reaped the benefits by getting to know these people. RL: What were the changes that you noticed that were brought about? 23 TV: That is a hard one for me because I had the benefit of getting to know the people that got hired here, some of the guys I think back on like Henry Yamaguchi who worked up there. RL: I just wondered if you saw a difference in the face of the staff. TV: I'd have to stop and think about that because I didn't really pay much attention to it. To me they were just good guys and that's what matters. One of the better interactions I've had. I love to work out at the gym and I lift a lot of weights up there and I love interacting with the student athletes. These young men and women are about as fine a people you'll ever meet in your life. I love to talk to people and getting to know these student athletes has been one of the more amazing experiences in my life. I have people stop me that I don't recognize and they say, "I work out at the gym, we talk about this and this." I've got to tell you a story about Fine Unga. He used to be a running back under Mike Price. I've seen him around for years. He looks like he could still play. One of his relatives, I think it was his nephew, was BYU's all-time leading rusher, Harvey Unga. I've been a Chicago Bears fan since I was a little kid. I just mentioned it to Fine and asked if it was a relative of his who got drafted by Chicago. We got to talking and I mentioned to him that one of the things on my bucket list is to go back to Bears Stadium to see a Bears game. Later on, said to me, "Well, if Harvey makes the team, we'll go back and see a game." I just spaced it off again and then he brought me a hat that said, "Number 45, Harvey Unga." I said, "What is up with this?" He said, "Harvey made the team." I said, "Wow, that's cool!" He said, "You pick the game and we'll go back." 24 RL: Did you get seats on the sideline? TV: We are going back on August 15, 2013 to see the Bears game at the Chicago Stadium versus the San Diego Chargers. One of the other notables was Frank Otis who played basketball for us. I'd be out and about and he'd stop me and I'd get to know him. RL: Did you get to play basketball with Damien? You couldn't pull a pick on him. TV: Damien's about five leagues ahead of me. He'd probably jump over the top of me. There again, Damien is another fine man. I was in a meeting and Kyle Tresnack stopped me because he recognized me. Bonnie and I are the ones with the towels behind the basket and we wave them at the opposing players when they're trying to make free throws. He picked up on that. The things you pick up on and just these wonderful experiences, you cannot put a price tag on them. It's just part of the overall experience up here. RL: With Thompson, there was an era when we started having more strategic planning on campus, which falls in line with what you were seeing in facilities management. I don't know if the two are related or if it was just individuals that happened to be working on the same kinds of things. After President Thompson, we got Ann Milner, who is very highly thought of and I have not heard of anyone who was not sad to see her step down. TV: I am among those. I've known President Milner for a long time. I knew her when she was working for continuing education. Right after she became president here in about 2004 or 2005, we had a request from her to tour the infrastructure of the campus. She was very interested in the infrastructure of the campus wanted to 25 go see the chilled water plant, and the heat plant, and wanted to go through the tunnels. I didn't know quite how to take this. Kevin Hansen assigned me to take President Milner on a tour. RL: Through all the mole holes on the campus? TV: Some of the places I'd say, "President Milner, you really don't want to go down here." She's the only one that wanted to know how this place worked and what the infrastructure was like. We didn't have any centralized air conditioning on this campus until 1968. They put two lithium bromide steam powered absorption chillers in the basement of the science lab building. As the campus grew, we had to add another central chiller. It was our first centrifugal that was installed in a separate vault way below basement grade on the south end of the science lab building. Once we got the new electric powered centrifugal in place, we abandoned the old absorption chillers which were a maintenance nightmare because they were old and antiquated. RL: It's like the difference between air conditioning and swamp coolers. TV: Pretty much. The absorbers were an energy hog, very inefficient, troublesome, and a constant maintenance issue. The centrifugal at the time was a 1250 ton carrier and it pretty much took care of the campus. We're talking the early 1980's. The campus continued to grow and expand and we were running that chiller for all it was worth. We had no redundancy. We didn't have a backup plan if that chiller went down. I remember on a July 4th weekend in the late 1990's, the central campus chiller went down. At the same time, we had a stand-alone unit at 26 the Browning Center, which was installed during construction in the late 1960's that went down on the same day. This was July 4th weekend, we had two chillers down and we had nowhere to turn. We couldn't get anyone up here because people were out of town. We finally got ahold of someone from Carrier Corporation and he worked on the central chiller throughout most of the weekend. The Browning Center chiller was 24 feet down and it had two lines, one is the chilled water line that goes to the building and the other is the condensing line which goes to the cooling towers. The ground shifted and sheered the condenser lines, so we started digging. We had to bring in great big track hoes and we just started digging and digging. When we got down there we ran across all these cables that were sagging. Those were the feeder cables to the transformers in the basement. We had to get electricians up here to take care of that. In the meantime, we struck hardpan and hit groundwater and the basement of the Browning Center started to flood. You wonder how many things could go wrong with that project. Scott Jensen was the director of the Browning Center and had events scheduled. Needless to say, he was pretty anxious to get this done. An employee named Destry Labrum and I tried to line up electricians and anybody we could find. I lived here for two or three days until we got that done. I hardly slept at all. I remember telling Destry that the sweetest sound I've ever heard in my life was that central campus chiller. There was a reason we used to have earphones right there at the door. That thing was a high pitched screamer. 27 At that time, I thought that that old carrier finally getting back online was the prettiest sound I've heard in my life. It underscored the whole idea that if we lose a chiller, we're dead in the water. That started the process rolling. In the meantime, we were doing a make-do kind of thing. We took out the old absorption chillers and we kept adding new chillers, but I did a lot of studies, which showed that we were still running out of capacity. The campus was growing faster than what we could keep up with and what we could support. I think that was part of the reason why President Milner wanted to see what was going on. I explained to her everything that we were doing. I even took her down to the vault with the old screamer and we both had our hands over our ears. We needed more capacity and redundancy in our plant. RL: She was very successful in her time in getting funding for new buildings and for remodeling on campus. We had Elizabeth Hall… TV: There was some visionary stuff going on with Vice President Simkins. He could see the need, so the cooling towers were in place before we got the central plant. President Milner was successful in convincing people to support the new chilled water plant. We're talking 5 or 6 million dollars. Now, we have full redundancy. We are totally backed up. If we lose a chiller, we have total back up. Same with the heat plant. RL: We'll continue as we get the funding for the new science building. TV: That's right. We have capacity there to handle it. RL: Were you around during the construction of the science buildings or was that already in place? 28 TV: The science lab constructed before I arrived as part of the major building boom on campus, which happened between 1968 and 1972. RL: So you would have been here as a student? TV: I would have been here as a student. As a matter of fact, I took classes from Park Guymon and we had our labs in the science building. RL: You'll come full circle because now they will get a new building. TV: That is a good thing. Honestly, the science labs have been a maintenance nightmare for us. Back then, the way they used to fireproof everything was with that spray-on asbestos. We have to be careful because they can't do a lot in that building without removing the asbestos first. We can't even work on things. It's old and worn out. A lot of the components, like the exhaust fans on the roof, you can't get parts for anymore because they don't make them. We have to buy brand new exhaust fans with a little bit of a different configuration and adapt them to keep the building operational. RL: You described President Milner as very much hands-on from the ground up. I would imagine that having that type of an administrator makes life a little easier for facilities management operations. That area did not report directly to the president, it always reported to a vice president, is that correct? TV: That's correct. RL: You just mentioned Vice President Al Simkins. Was there someone else in his place prior to his arrival that you remember? Were there influences on facilities management? 29 TV: The first vice president I remember really well was Dr. Folger who was a very personable type of guy and a very intelligent individual and he was very approachable. Even being a lowly draftsman, I was able to talk to him on a limited basis. I was very rank conscious, but he was very approachable. He came from the business end of things and had a doctorate in business. I wasn't here too many years when Dr. Folger retired. RL: Did he come in from faculty? TV: He came in from faculty I believe. He could have been an academic dean. After that was Dr. Jerry Story. I didn't interact with Dr. Story very much. Bob Folsom interacted with him quite a bit as far as anything to do with the campus. I didn't really know the man very well. He seemed like he was a nice enough guy and he'd talk to you, but I wasn't able to interact with him on a one-on-one basis. After that it was Dr. Simkins. RL: He was here for quite a while. TV: Until Dr. Tarbox showed up. RL: That would have been about 2005. With Al Simkins, you mentioned earlier that he had been interested in setting the plan in place to prevent catastrophes and to plan ahead for some redundancy and so forth. TV: Dr. Simkins was the visionary. He could see what was coming down the pike and saw the need to combine his departments. He saw what had to happen and was able to implement that. I was able to interact with Dr. Simkins through one of my all-time favorite people named Craige Hall. RL: Who became vice president over there in 1991. 30 TV: Yes, he was the associate vice president, I believe. I knew Craige when he was the director of the library here. We did some remodeling projects. He was one of the most approachable and fun guys I've ever been around, a super golfer who was terrific. We had a lot in common and he was very approachable. I just can't say enough good things about Craige Hall. RL: He was the director of the library for twenty something years and also happened to be put over the computer center. I believe when he went to the vice president's office, they moved the computer center so that it was still under him. He had quite a variety of things. He had physical plant, all of the budget and financial stuff, the athletes and the NCAA relationships and all of the facilities things. You just thought you went to a lot of meetings. TV: I remember when Craige got appointed to what we called mahogany row on the third floor. My previous dealings with certain faculty members that had been promoted to that level had not been very good. I got the feeling that once they were promoted to that level that they became very rank conscious. I didn't know what to expect when I had my first meeting with Craige Hall in his new office. I was kind of sitting at attention and he looked at me kind of funny and said, "Thomas, how the hell are you?" I said, "Fine." I guess I still didn't loosen up enough because he took his shoes off and put his feet on the desk and said, "Well, take your shoes off, put your feet up, let's talk about things." It just put me at ease. We were able to interact in that manner, keeping in mind that he's still at vice president level and I'm not, but he had that way of putting you at ease and he'd listen to you and address your concerns. He was every bit a manager who 31 could bring people together. Define the term "manager," that would be Craige Hall. I got to know his wife, Deanna, very well also. She was a wonderful person too. Those two matched up so well. I remember some of the stories Craige would tell me about the younger days when he was running for student body president of high school and some of the things they did like an airplane drop with all these leaflets. They got in trouble for that for all the litter they were throwing out of airplanes. Some of the stories that he would tell were just absolutely wonderful. I was able to interact very well with Craige Hall. He's a great guy. Vice President Tarbox was without a doubt one of the smartest individuals I've ever been around. He is extremely intelligent. RL: He didn't come in from faculty, he came in from outside. TV: That's right. He came in from the Board of Regents. We always called him Norm from the Board of Regents. You found out early on that if you have a meeting with Norm, you better have all your ducks in a row and be able to answer any question that he could throw at you. He's very detailed and highly intelligent, but he was kind of pressing the need for the new chilled water plant and later on the new boiler addition in our heat plant to replace the two worn out boilers. Both of the boilers were over 50 years old. On the facilities side, he was very much the visionary. No doubt, Craige had some influence there. RL: You had Simkins who laid all the ground work. 32 TV: He did lay all the groundwork. Norm was able to take over and run with it. Our whole energy management program as we see it was championed by Norm. RL: Okay, that's been the era that we've been in for the last few years with this ongoing green project and so forth. TV: Actually, the revolving loan fund. He championed this idea. We hired a young man as an energy manager, Jake Cain, who ended up working for me. He undertook this project to prove to administration that conserving energy and revolving and taking the energy savings and reinvesting it in the institution was actually a good idea. I remember he presented that to Norm and it's something I'd been pressing for years to get a portion of our energy savings to reinvest in new energy products. We basically proved to Norm that we were getting a much higher rate of return on our investment through energy savings than we were in any other investment that the university had at the time. Norm championed that whole idea and we now have other universities coming to us and asking, "How did you do that?" That's the type of visionary he was. He still is as a matter of fact. I think the world of Norm. He and Craige are wonderful. Every once in a while I run across Simkins in the grocery store and of course my wife, Bonnie, knows everybody. RL: She was in Human Resources for a while, wasn't she? TV: Yes, that's right. At one time she was working with the football team under Dave Arslanian. She was in charge of all the travel arrangements and had to feed the athletes and things like that. These are 18 or 19-year- old kids that have never been away from home before and she was kind of the team mom. I met her in 33 1990 when she was working for Sam Zeveloff. She went from Sam to football, and then went to work for Nandi in Student Affairs. She worked for Jan Winneford for a while and then went to Human Resources. As a consequence, she knows everybody on this campus. My standing joke when it comes to Bonnie is, "People know me not as Tom, but as Bonnie's husband." My real name is Bonnie's Husband Van Cleave. I kid her a lot about that. I could carry on about Bonnie, but that's not part of this here. We just have so much fun together. RL: Well, she's part of the campus history too. TV: She is. Absolutely. She was my gift. She keeps me grounded and we get along so wonderfully. RL: In your working with buildings and construction around campus and so forth, you probably also had involvement with some of the deans and the different colleges. Anyone in particular that had an impact? TV: Warren Hill. I enjoyed working with Warren. RL: Warren Hill who is kind of grounded came here from Pueblo, Colorado and he got here in the early nineties. TV: Right. I got to know Warren. I still see him on occasion. He's one of the greatest guys and super smart, very analytical. We got along pretty well. He was very influential and he has the type of personality that you go out of your way to try to help him out. People just gravitate to him. He's very outgoing and just a great person to be around. My interaction with other deans has not been that extensive. RL: We had some long-term people like Dean Sadler over in social sciences. 34 TV: I took a class with Dean Sadler right after he got here. I think he got here in 1968. I've known Dr. Sadler since forever ago and he's just another one of those great individuals. I interacted with him quite a bit. He was super charismatic and a great individual. He'd appreciate anything you could do for him and he'd listen to you. RL: They had some major problems in the social science building. TV: We had several problems in that building, which was built in the sixties We had insect infestations. I know that. We tried re-caulking and that building was another constant battle for us. The infrastructure is very dated. We also had heating and air conditioning problems. RL: I was thinking about the leaky roof. TV: Yes, we did have roof leaks. That building is an old building and it's in need of a total renovation. It's been a nightmare for us. RL: Was that one of the first major buildings on this campus? TV: Yes, it was built in that time period between 1968 and 1970. I do a lot of analysis of these buildings and there was a big building boom on this campus that took place between 1968 and 1973. The whole north end of the campus was totally torn up at that time. The education building was built soon thereafter. I remember seeing a campus master plan at one time and there was supposed to be a skyway bridge between the social science building and the education building. You can still see where it was supposed to be, especially on the social science building. On the second floor, midway on the east side of the building, there are some glass panels that don't quite match up with the rest of them. At one time 35 they were double doors. We finally realized that the sky bridge was not going to be built, so there was a remodeling project to get rid of those double glass doors. We've had our share of leaky roofs. Right after Mike Perez got here, we had one of those canyon winds that was super bad. We lost a lot of roofs that day. Perez and I went to the top of the stadium to see what the damage was. We were out there hanging on for dear life watching the roof of the Allied Health Science Building disappear. RL: That building was fairly new. TV: Yes, at that time it was fairly new. I also remember all of our campus roofs had to be red. They had the tar and gravel build up type of roof made with what they call Red Scoria, which is lava rock. Canyon winds tend to pick those things up and make unguided missiles out of them. We replaced a lot of windshields after that windstorm. RL: Broken windshields of the employees? TV: Students and employees had broken windshields from the flying Red Scoria, especially in the A-1 parking lot. The social science building had that Red Scoria roof as did administration. As we started replacing roofs, we started the single ply roofs. That's what started the process rolling. We still had to have red because those were the campus standards at the time. I have a confession. The first white roof on this campus is on the science lab building. I was responsible for that project and I picked white. RL: Were you thinking of heating? 36 TV: Absolutely. I was thinking about the air conditioning and the reflection of that roof in the summertime. I kind of violated the campus standard and I don't know if Bob Folsom realized that or not. Anyway, that is my confession. RL: They can't get you for it now. TV: They can't come after me. Now we are all going with cool roof as our standard. The Stromberg Center roof is being replaced now. I think the Browning Center still has the Red Scoria roof on it as does student services. RL: When the student union building was remodeled and added to, was the roof changed then? TV: That's right. That was built with the cool roof concept. There are a lot of lighting innovations and a lot of variable frequency drives in there. In a nutshell, rather than a big fan system with a 100 horsepower motor that ramps up right away, when you hit the switch, the variable frequency drives allow you to ramp up slowly to avoid sudden starts and a big spike in your energy consumption. That's hard on the motor, the bearings, the belts and you name it. There are two different ways that we're billed for energy. First, is our consumption in kilowatt hours and second, is our demand in kilowatts. When you get a big spike on an electric motor and you've got them all coming on within a certain timeframe, your bill goes up. The variable frequency drives are now our standard. We started incorporating those in the late 1990's. Another great energy saving feature of VFD's is that they provide us with the ability to run our fan systems at a reduced percentage of total load, depending upon the demands of the building. 37 RL: I would imagine those white roofs have made quite a bit of difference in reflection. TV: Absolutely. We have done so many things and those cool roofs have definitely paid off. RL: You've been here long enough that you were here to deal with that rounded cover that we had over the library. We used to watch when the wind came up and it would be moving and buckling. TV: Are you talking about the skylight? RL: Yes. TV: I remember having to replace that. There was a wind storm and we had the guys from the carpenter shop throwing ropes and cables on trying to tie it down and doing anything we could do to keep that thing from getting airborne. Of course, it was tearing up the roof all the way around it. RL: We made sure we didn't have to walk from wing to wing in there because we didn't know if the roof would disappear and you'd get sucked out too. TV: It was all hands on deck trying to save that skylight. It's one of those things where it's put in place and you don't know what the consequences are going to be until you get a severe event like some of those that we had. There have been some innovations that have failed us. The Dee Events Center was built with an epoxy type of a roof. It was a much different configuration than what you see on the roof now. RL: Epoxy like super glue? 38 TV: Yes. They'd just build it up and coat it in fiberglass and epoxy. The downside is that it was not exactly proven technology at the time, and after a while the combination of all the elements the thing started to peel and we had leaks in the Dee Events Center. The roof looked terrible. It looked like a giant hamburger bun. Through the process of evolution, we ended up with the roof that we have now. It was one of those things that didn't work out very well for us. Sometimes learning experiences come hard and that was one of them. RL: We've progressed through the different buildings. We had the student services building and Elizabeth Hall which is a little bit different. You said that we got away from the campus standard when we got away from the red roof. What about a standard as far as bricks or building colors? TV: Actually, that is still in effect. The brick color is called golden buff. That's our campus standard brick and you see it everywhere. RL: Except the business building. How did that happen to turn out the way it did? TV: That was a sore spot with Bob Folsom. We had a dean at the time that wanted something unique. RL: What year would that have been? TV: That would have been about 1980 or 1982. It was one of the first major buildings built after I arrived on campus. I remember Bob Folsom was very upset about the glass, but Sterling Sessions forced that issue through. He was a very forceful individual and he was determined that he was going to have his way and he got it. It was a major sore spot with Bob Folsom that he was able to do that. There 39 are still some elements on that building that are the standard brick, but it isn't pronounced. RL: At that time, the glass building would have been the trend, wouldn't it? TV: Correct, but Bob was the architect and everything had to match. The student service building is also somewhat innovative with the exposed concrete and things like that. The architect's name was Astel Erickson. I was involved in that building. We had some nightmares in the student services building too. From an energy standpoint, it was highly inefficient. We have all these great big high intensity discharge lighting. They are 175 watt HID and 250 HID and they were pointed upward through a skylight so that people could enjoy the ambience at night. I remember fighting him about that. They're up there 24 feet and I wondered how in the world we were going to change those light bulbs. I was basically told that was a maintenance problem. So, we just let them burn out. That was our energy efficiency. It no longer shines up to the skylight in the middle of the night. I never saw the architect drive by too often to see that. He was the same architect that did the Allied Health Science Building phase one. We had a lot of leaks in that building from the sloped glass. You'd get a pinhole and it'd start to work, but the wind would make it move and it would leak. We've done that about three times to try and keep the leaks out and it still leaks. It's just inherent in that type of structure. RL: The new dorms have normal windows and no big glass feature. It looks as though the new Stromberg addition is going to have a lot of glass. Is that going to 40 have a lot of glass in an open area? What will that do in terms of glass facing toward the west as far as requiring more air conditioning because of the heat with the late afternoon sun? TV: Remember when I was saying that if engineers built everything they'd all look like Wal-Marts? That building was kind of an ugly building and it needed some help. It was not a very welcoming building. I see both sides of the equation. West facing glass is an energy manager's nightmare, but you have to be sensitive to the overall picture of things. That building is going to be spectacular. They've done everything they can as far as minimizing the impact on the HVAC. We have the low emissivity glass that is going to be throughout. The sun shining through is still going to have an impact, but we're trying to minimize that impact. RL: Has it grown as the project has progressed? TV: No, this was from square one. RL: Was it? The early drawings that we had seen, it was a much smaller approach and it was really just going to be an entryway. Now it looks like major facilities are being added. TV: It's funny you should mention that because I kind of picked up on that myself. From the conceptual drawings that I saw, this has grown. I'm not in the project management end anymore, so I'm not sure how this evolved. It is going to be a big addition. RL: Now you're doing the energy analysis, not necessarily having anything to do with construction? 41 TV: Yes. I do a lot of energy analysis and scheduling of our buildings. We waste a lot of energy at night because the lights are on and nobody is home. The building automatic and control is a complex system where all the buildings are tied into our central automation center. Of course, we have controllers, wires, panels, and variable frequency drives in all of our fan systems so there are a lot of things that can go wrong. Part of my job is to look at all the spikes in consumption. I get read outs as often as I want to download them. I can see all the spikes in consumption and I figure out what is causing the spike or the increase in the loads in a specific building. We are soon going to be able to meter every building on this campus for electricity, chilled water, steam, water, domestic water, and natural gas, but to do that we have to have all of these meters installed. They all have to have certain set points and parameters to set them. Another part of my job is to dig out all of the information for a particular building and what it requires so they can adjust the control set points to the demands of the building. RL: While you're working on this project, have you been able to find things that have required big changes that you were able to influence? TV: We've made a lot of big changes. Have you been to Dee Events Center lately? RL: Not lately. TV: The primary responsibility for this belongs to Jake, but I'm kind of a sounding board too. That kid is smart. Don't tell him I said that, okay? In the Dee Events Center arena, we had forty-something 1500 watt HID lamps. Including the ballasts that were probably pulling at least 2,000 watts a piece. Multiply that by forty-something and all of a sudden you've got a big electricity load and also a 42 big heat load because of the heat coming off the bulbs. The amount of light you get off an incandescent light bulb is about 10 or 15 percent of the actual energy input and the rest is all heat. That gives you an idea of what goes on at the top of that dome where all the heat rises anyway. We're using all LED's now. I give the credit to Jake for this one. RL: That's quite a bit cooler, isn't it? TV: Absolutely, and it's reduced the load on our chilled water plant. Plus, they're so quiet. The humming from the bulbs is gone. The first time I was in there I thought, "My gosh, it's quiet in here and all the lights are on." It's one of those side benefits from an operations perspective. We had so much trouble with those ballasts on those HID lamps. The heat was killing them and we were replacing some pretty high priced ballasts on a frequent basis as well as the light bulbs. Those LED's are supposed to last for about 20 years or some phenomenal number. It cuts back on the maintenance burden. This is a win-win. We actually had engineers show up to see how we did it. We had the University of Utah show up and ask how we did it. We have people calling us from all over the nation asking how we did it and they want to come see it. Needless to say, that makes Kevin Hansen just delighted. One of his goals was that he wanted people to come to Weber State and see what we're doing, rather than us going to them to see what they're doing. RL: You save travel money. TV: Absolutely. Plus, it puts us on the map. It's one of those really neat things that we're doing. Have you seen all the solar panels on the roof of the Swenson 43 Building? That supplies all the hot water for the swimming pool. It's almost a freebie. It cuts back on spending for natural gas. RL: Well, it cuts back on the whole global warming thing as well. TV: Absolutely, anything we can do. We've also seen a huge savings from our central chilled water plant. We send water out of the chilled water plant at 44 degrees. It goes down the campus through the pipes and goes to all the buildings and it comes back to us at about 56 degrees. When it hits the building, you don't want 44 degree air coming out of the registers, so we temper it by running a boiler. It hits the reheat coils which are supplied by hot water. So, basically, we're cooling off all this air and then heating it up at the room level. There's something wrong with this picture. So, when we had to shut down our central steam system for the new boiler installation, we thought, "Let's use this opportunity to accomplish several things, like some much needed repairs in our tunnel system and raise the set point on our chilled water plant to where we are now pushing down 54 to 55 degree water, and let's see what happens." Last year, we hit one million dollars in savings over our base year by doing just that. Rocky Mountain Power has kind of a love-hate relationship with us. They've built new plants to supply us, but we're saving a lot of energy and a lot of money for the campus. Those are the fun things that we get to do. I remember Jake telling me that, after we raised the set-point on our chillers, Rocky Mountain Power sent their technicians to our sub-station on two separate occasions to verify that the meter was working properly. The energy savings were that substantial. 44 We're working on projects now where I'm still identifying each individual fan system and scheduling when it runs and how often we should change the filters from both an energy perspective and an operational cost savings perspective. It takes more energy to push air through a dirty filter than it does a clean one. We still have to maintain a certain quality of air coming through our campus. I think we overachieve in that aspect. We're using a Merv-13 filter, to replace the old Merv-8. The rating has to do with the amount of particles that are trapped. The higher the number, the more particles you trap. With these Merv- 13's we're able to maintain the air quality and we only have single stage filters instead of two-stage filters to do the same thing. We're saving money on the operations end and by changing them on a regular basis we save energy. You make it a win-win situation for everybody. The customer is happy and we're happy. We're saving money from not only energy, but from our operations maintenance budget. RL: I was going to ask you if we are making enough power that it does not have to be purchased by Rocky Mountain. TV: We're not to that point yet. We have several proposals in the works. Right now between the Davis campus and the union building, we might be at 8 percent of our total usage. We have plans in the works for Davis in particular. There's a lot of wide open space out there. It's in the planning stages and we're running the numbers to see if we can fund it. We want to generate at least 40 percent of our energy consumption for the Davis. This is in the future. That's what keeps me hanging around and showing up to see what happens next. 45 RL: Could you have windmills? TV: We're thinking about that. The permitting is a nightmare. I think a guy at the mouth of Weber Canyon found that out the hard way that it's a nightmare. You have to have a certain velocity of wind. The mouth of the canyon is really high velocity wind. RL: It can't be sporadic. It has to be steady. TV: You don't want this thing to get airborne on you. It has to be somewhat constant wind flow rather than in the morning the wind blows like heck at the mouth of the canyon and it dies off in the afternoon. I don't know if Davis has the velocity. There are a whole bunch of studies that we have to do. RL: Solar panels are good anyway. TV: Solar panels are great. The cost is coming down and the efficiency is going up and that's why I bought them for my house. I'm looking at a four to five year payback on my investment with all of the tax incentives and rebates applied. They become more and more viable all the time. It's also a good recruiting tool. Students show up and they see the solar panels everywhere. The new generation is thinking green and they pick up on these things. It's a recruitment tool, an energy efficiency tool, and it cuts down on the wear and tear on our equipment. RL: Earlier you talked about people who mentored you over the years. Have you had opportunities to pay it forward? TV: I try and take every opportunity. We have a bunch of young guys up there. RL: A lot of enthusiasm, but you have to curb it a little bit, don't you? 46 TV: I'm able to mentor these young guys and show them the how and the why. Jake is to the point now that he can fly on his own. He knows about the politics and how to get things done. I'm still kind of a sounding board and we discuss things. In my many years there, we had a lot of people who were content to complain about their position in life, but didn't want to do anything about it. I remember one young man that used to work for me. He came to me and told me that he wants my job. I said, "Okay, well here's what you have to do." I started laying it out for him and said, "You need your degree and you already have one of those, but the next person that sits in my chair will have a master's degree." His response was, "I can't do that." I said, "If you still want my job, this is the way you're going to have to get it." He decided not to go back to school and all I heard were his reasons why not rather than, "I can do that." The person who took over in my position has a master's degree. It has become more prevalent in what is now a profession thanks to Mike Perez and Kevin Hansen. It is now a profession, not just a bunch of maintenance guys in bib overalls. RL: It's not an internship. TV: That's right. We have some bright young guys coming up. There's a young plumber up there named Dustin. He's a real character in his own right. He wants to know how things work. He's planning his future, he's taking classes, and he's getting his degree. I have an electrician who is the same way. They can see what they have to do to succeed. RL: It's not just hands-on, it's got to be an underpinning understanding. 47 TV: Right. The hands-on is the foundation. You know how things work, but now you have to figure out why it works. Those are the type of guys you try and mentor. There's another young lady who works for us named Jenn Bodine. She's about the smartest person I've run across too. She has her master's degree, but now she's curious about mechanical type stuff. She's going back to school to get her mechanical engineering degree. I say, "Hey Jenn, I'm going down on campus, do you want to come? Let's go see how this works." That's what I get to do. That's another fun part of my job. I get to do those things now, whereas I didn't have time before. RL: Okay, so we've touched on your time as a student and how you've progressed professionally. We've talked about your relationship with administrators and other individuals on campus. What haven't we covered that's important from your time here at Weber? TV: One of the more outstanding personalities from our facility is John Burkes. John was born and raised in Tupelo, Mississippi, and came to Weber State University about four years after I did. I met John one day at the old racquetball courts in the Swenson Gym. He was looking for a game and so was I. Over the course of the next 20 plus years, we became quite good friends. We played golf together, played a lot of racquetball and went on fishing trips together, the most notable of which was to the Kenai River in Alaska. I learned how to play racquetball by taking classes from Lyn Corbridge. Even though "Corb" is a few years older than I am, I could never beat him one-on-one. I also played a lot of racquetball with Ron Deeter and Scott Loughton. Mike Vause is another real character that I 48 came to know quite well. The English Department seemed to have a lot of them for some reason. RL: Connections that one wouldn't necessarily associate with as someone in your position and yet it's more of a social thing, but I'm sure it comes in handy as you're trying to do your job. TV: It's those intangibles that you cannot put your finger on. It's not all about salary and benefits. It's the other perks like the interpersonal relationships, the gym time, and the ability to interact with the deans and professors. RL: Let's face it, in higher education regardless of your position, you're not here for the money. TV: You're not going to die rich from this place, but it's good all the way around. You have to look at the total picture. That's what kept me here for all these years. Many years ago, the student body president here at the time, Mike Aarve, wanted a "W" on the mountain like the big "Y" at BYU and the "U" at the University of Utah. I remember it went through a whole bunch of stages and I asked, "You want that thing where?" He wanted it above the campus. There's a road there that sits right up on the side of the bald face hill. I thought, "How in the world are we going to do that?" You can't pump the concrete up there. At the time, all they had was a bunch of rocks or a white wash that was the "W." Anything to do with concrete or anything like that was totally impractical. So, they hatched this idea that they wanted a living "W" on the mountain made out of trees. This was in 1982, and I remember that specifically because Dean Hurst 49 and I were on top of the administration building with a transit and we had guys all over the side of this mountain laying out this "W." RL: Was Dean over in development at the time? TV: I think he was. I had a broken collarbone at the time from the same motorcycle that I got my separated shoulder from. I had the radio and Dean had the transit and we were making these guys move all these 2x6's. They were going all over this mountain laying out this great big "Flaming W" and it was huge. The students all got together and raised the funds. We put a drip irrigation system in with a pump and I think the pump house is still there. I can't remember the exact number, but we hauled up thousands of trees. RL: What kind of trees? TV: They were Dwarf Sumac. We had a daisy chain of students and football players and digging them in with peat moss and we got all those dog gone trees up there. When we finished, we walked down and started admiring our work. Later on, it became apparent that something was going on up there because the trees were disappearing. What happened was we planted all those trees and the deer went nuts. They had a built-in smorgasbord. The official parting line was, "It's all the alkaline in the soil that killed the trees." A young man in our office was doing layout work for the new "Flaming W" a couple of years ago and he told me that the stumps are still there. That was one of our more notable, funny failures. RL: Oops. Was that paid for with student funds? TV: I don't know exactly how they paid for it all, but I think lot of it was donor funds. 50 RL: Well, it was a good idea. TV: Nobody researched that very well. RL: Now we have the flaming "W" that's lit just a couple of times a year. Is that done on extension cords or did you actually have to wire the mountain side? TV: Actually, they have a portable generator they take up there. Remember I was talking about, Lynn Kraaima? That was his responsibility. He'd haul a generator up there every year for homecoming and light the "W." It's a different configuration now than what it was back then. It's all done by generator now. I don't know who's taken that over since he died. He was one of the other great guys I met up here. I've met a lot of great people up here. RL: There's got to be a reason why we all come back and we all stay here. TV: That's right. There's got to be a reason to get us to keep getting out of bed in the morning. RL: Is there anything else that you want to talk about? TV: I could talk forever about this place, but those are the more notables. RL: I certainly appreciate you taking the time to come and talk with us. TV: I'm honored. I'm really honored with this. RL: You've given us a totally different perspective of the campus. Weber is made up of a lot of people at different levels with different responsibilities and you've shared some things about what you've worked with over the years. It all started out with a Weber education. 51 TV: That's right. It all started out with trying to catch those old fish in front of the campus. We do have an aerial photo of campus that was taken in the early 1960's that shows that house and the pond. RL: What was that house used for? TV: I'm not too sure what the house was used for at the time. We had a lot of residences that were along Harrison Blvd. There used to be a road that came right down past the bell tower. I remember parking my car there so I could go to my classes in the TUB. It connected with the road by the administration building and there was a row of houses in there. The university acquired a lot of houses over the years. RL: Speaking of white buildings and houses. Were you here when the president's residence burned down? TV: I was not. I came right after that. That's when Joseph Bishop was here. RL: So your memories are of different white buildings? TV: Yes, this was on Harrison Boulevard and the aerial photo shows it. It's a validation of what I think I remember from my junior high school days. RL: That's wonderful. Thank you for taking the time to come talk with us. We appreciate it. TV: Thank you for the opportunity. This has been great for me. It's been a lot of fun. 52

Issue 10.2 of the Review for Religious, 1951. ; ~:~ - ~, A.M. D, G., ~ Reiciew for Religious St. Jos~ph;s Patronage . Francis L Filas ' Dominican Spirffuality . .~ Regknald Hughes Ten÷afive Tes¢incj ~ P¢ogram . Sister M. Digna, Peace . : . Winfrld Herbst Why Do They Leave.'! . ; . . . Anonymou,s ~uesfions and Answsrs Book Reviews ¢ Summer Sessions Communications VOLUME X NUMbeR~ 2 RI::VII:W FOR RI::LIGIOUS VOLUME X MARCH,, 1951 NUMBER 2 CONTENTS ST. JOSEPH'S PATRONAGE--Francis L Filas, S.J .5.7 THE FAMILY FOR FAMILIES . 66 THE ASSUMPTION . 66 OUR CONTRIBUTORS . , . 66 DOMINICAN SPIRITUALITY--Very Rev. Reginald Hugl~es, O.P. 67 FRANCES SCHERVIER CAUSE ADVANCES .7.4. : TENTATIVE TESTING pROGRAM-~Sister M. Digna, 'O.S.B. 75 PEACE--WINFRID HERBST, S.D.S . 81 WHY DO THEY LEAVE?--Anony.mous . 84 BOOK REVIEWS-- Catholic Social P,rinciples; The Nun~.at her Prie-Dieu; Recruiting for , Christ; .Patrology ; Religious Sisters .~ . ' . 93 BOOK NOTICES . . 101 BOOK ANNOUNCEMENTS . ;.~. . 102 COMMUNICATIONS ° 104 ' QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS-- 7. Term of Office for Local Superior . 8. Obligation to Sick Religious under Temporary Vows . 106 9. Letter to Local Ordinary . 107 I0. General Chapte~ and Change in Constitutions " 108 11. Attwater on Apgstoli ~ndulgence . 108 12. Indulgence for Reeling Rosary . 109 13. Vote on Clerical Religious before Major Orders .109 14. Vows Reserved to the Holy See . 1 I0 SUMMER SESSIONS . 111 REPRINTS : SINGLE SETS . 112 REVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS,~ March, 1951, Vol. X, No. 2. Published bi-monthly : January, March, May, July, September, and November at the College Press," 606 Harrison Street, Topeka, Kansas, by St. Mary's College, St. Marys, Kansas, with ecclesiastical approbation. Entered as second class matter January 15, 1942, at the Post Office, Topeka. Kansas, under the act of March 3, 1879. Editorial Board: Adam C. Ellis, S.J., G. Augustine Ellard, S.I., Gerald Kelly, S.J. Editorial Secretary: ,Jerome Breunig, S. 3. Copyright, 1951, by Adam C. Ellis, S.J. Permission is hereby granted for quota-tions of reasonable length, proyided due credit be given this review and the author. Subscription price: 2 dollars a rear. Printed in U. S. A. Before writing to us, pleese consult notice on inside back'cover. S!:. Joseph's Patronage Francis L. Filas, S.J, ST. JOSEPH'S closeness tO Jesus and Mary gives him~a'degree of dignity and holiness which it is hard to understand. 'However, if we consider his position as Patron of the Universal Cl~urch, we can grasp to some extent the exalted rank God has given him. By studying the greatness of the patronage, we learn the greatness of the patron. , Like every pa.,tron saint, 5oseph receives from God a quasi-right to protect his clients. This precise relation of .patron "saint to client is difficult to express in our language, but the" fact is certain. The patron is like a father toward his charge, and a s~rong note of fatherly love characterizes his watchful care. The Communion of Saints is the bond that unites the Church Triumphant with the Church Militant and the Church Suffering. Due to this bond God grants the saints in heaven a special interces-sory power so that.by their prayers they can further the spiritual and temporal interegts of their brethren on earth. They invoke the merits they gained during their tim~ 6f pilgrimage, and by an act of suppli-cation they present to God~'t'bei}~requests for~th~ir clients, In this we rightly discern a manifestation of:the all-eml~ra~ing love which'Chrlst desires to flourish in His Church. ':'* Individual saints can freely be chosen as~patrons by anyone. In the case of some, however, it is fitt,ng that,~ttiey spec,ally watch over particular groups of people or types of~enterprises. Ordinarily, this fitness exists because of a circumstance df the saints' lives or some providential direction of their energies and prayers. Thus, the patrons' interests are more specific.ally those of ,their clients. Papal Pronouncements on Reason for St. Joseph's Patronage In the case of St. Joseph his patronage is the logical extension of his duties on earth. Although he was officially declared Patron of the Universal Church by Plus IX in 1870, Pius did not actually create him as such. The Pope. proclaimed what had already been a reality. St. Joseph's office as Patron of the Ufiiversal Church, a~ well as the dignity belonging to this title, was a corollary of the office and the dignity whichGod bestowed on him in making Joseph the head of the Holy Family. Reoieto for Religio,,s The decree of Pius IX makes this clear. "'Because of this sublime dignity which God conferred on His most faithful servant, the Church has always most highly honored and praised Blessed Joseph next to his spouse, the Virgin Mother of God, and has besought his intercessiob in times of trouble . Plus IX has therefore declared St. J~oseph~ Patron of the Universal Church.''1 The same termi-nology of "declaring" the Saint's patronage occurs in the Pope's decree of 1871.2 Even more detailed is Quamquam Pturies, the encyclical of Leo XIII concerning devotion to St. Joseph. "There are special reasons," Leo says, "why Blessed Joseph should be explicitly named the Patron of the Church, and why the Church in turn should expect much frdm his patronage and, guardianship. For he indeed was the husband of Mary, and the father, as was supposed, of Jesus Christ. From this arise all his dignity, grace, holiness and glory . "The divine h~usehold which Joseph governed as with paternal authority contained the beginnings of the new Church. The Virgin most holy is the mother of all Christians, since she is the mother of Jesus and since she gave birth to them on the mount of Calvary amid the indescribable sufferings of the Redeemer. Jesus is, as it were, the firstborn of Christians, who are His brothers by adoption and redemption. "From these cor~siderations we conclude that the Blessed'Patriarch must regard all the multitude of Christians who constitute the Church as confided to hih care in a certain special manner. This is his numberless family scattered throughout all lands, over which he rules with a sort of.paterr~hl" authority, because he is the husband of Mary and the father of J~sus Christ. Thus, it is conformable to rea- .~on and in every way becoming to Blessed Joseph that as once it was his sacred trust to guard with watchful care the family of Nazareth, no matter what befell, so now by virtue of his heavenly patronage he is in turn to protect and to defend the Church of Christ.''s The Recognition of St. Joseph's Patronage Its Historq This modern concept of Joseph's patronage lay hidden and unnoticed for centuries. Probably the first writer to call attention to it was John Gerson, the chancellor of the University of Paris. Gerson proposed St. Joseph's. guardianship of the Church in a set-lPius IX, Quemadmodum Deus, ASS 6, 193. ZPius IX, lnclgturn Patriarcbam, ASS 6, 324. SLeo XIII, Quamquam Pluries, ASS 22, 65.' 58 March, 19 51 ST. JOSEPH'S PATRONAGE mon to the. members of the Council of Constance, September 8, I 416. °The sermon had as its purpose the adoption of a feast of the espousal of Joseph and Mary. With deep anxiety the chancellor noted the disastrous results of the great Western Schism of 1378, a wound to the Church which was still unhealed. Gerson asked for al3proval of the feast of the espousal "in order that through the meri~ of Mary and through the intercession of so. great, so powerful, and in h certain way so omnipotent an intercessor with his bride., the Church might be led to her only true and safe lord, the supreme pastor, her spouse in place of Christ.''4 The suggestion made by Gerson was not acted upon, but once it had been put forth, the idea continued to recur to others. What really began to receive marked emphasis was JoSeph's part as guardian of the. Holy Family. This contained in germ the concept of Joseph's further guardianship of Christ's Churqh. It was next elaborated in the Summa of the Gifts of St. Joseph, a Latin book written by a Dominican, Isidore de :Isolani, in 1522. While depicting the exceptional honors he felt sure would be granted the saint, Isidore heralded the future with this prophecy: "For the honor of His name: God has chosen St. Joseph as head and special patron of the Church Militant.'.'~ The theme, of St. Joseph's guidanc~ of the Holy Family and of-the Church continued to run tl~kough the devoii3n~'as it flourished up to the middle of the eighteenth century. H~re, in.common with the temporal fortunes of the Church, it suffered a rela13se; but with the reign of Pius IX, a hundred years later, it. aggin surged forward. During the 1860's, various petitions'from bishops, priests, and the faithful were sent to the'Holy See, *asking for St. Joseph's full glorification in the liturgy and for the declaration of his patronage of the 13niversal Church. Three special, petitions were presented to the Vatican Council i.n 1869-70. ,It seems that these three were the petitions which immediately led Pius IX to make his declaration on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception in 1870.6 St. Joseph as Patriarch ~ Closely related to Joseph's title of Patron of the Universal Church is his title of Patriarch. Ordinarily, the name. "patriarch" is reserved for a man who is the father of numerous descendants. The patriarchs 4John Gerson, Sermon of September 8, 1416, Conclusion; Summa Josephina, 213. 5Isidore de Isolani, Summa de donis S. loseph, III, 8. ~For historical details, cf. Film, The Man Nearest to Christ, oh. 9, 10. 59 FRANCIS L. FILAS Review for Religious of the Old Testament deserve the title not only because of their ven-erable fatherhood, but also (in a spiritual sense) because of the Mes-sias who was to be born of their line. They were literally "patri-archs. in preparation," in view of God's promise of the Savior who was to spring from the Jewish people. St. Joseph was truly the greatest of the patriarchs, understanding the term in this spiritual meaning. Our Lord took human nature of the virginal wife of Joseph, and in this fashion the saint exercised the rights.~of father over Him whose spiritual posterity would embrace all the elect. Leo XIII explains how Joseph's. position as patriarch is linked with his offke as patron. "Conformably with the Church's sacred liturgy," the Pope writes in his encyclical on St. Joseph, "the opinion has been held by not a few Fathers of the Church that the ancient Joseph, son of the Patriarch Jaco.b,foreshadowed both in person and in office our own St. Joseph. By his glory he was a prototype of the grandeur of the future' guardian of the Holy Family. In addition to the circumstances that both men bore the same name--a name by" no means devoid of si~nificance-~'it is well known to you that they resembled each other very closely in other respects as well. "Notable in this regard are the facts that the earlier Joseph re-ceived spec!al favor and b~nevolence from his lord, and that when placed by him as ruler over his houkehold, fortune and prosperity abundantly accrued tO the master's house because of Joseph . Thus, in that ancient patriarch we may recognize the distinct image of St. Joseph. As trio. one was prosperous and successful in the domestic concerns of. his lord, and in an exceptional manner was set forth over his whoIe kingdom, so the other, destined to guard the name of Christ, could well be chosen to defend and to protect the Church, which is truly the house of God and the kingdom of God on earth.''~ ¯ . In the e.arly 1700's the Holy See was considering the re-insertion of Joseph's name into the Litany of the Saints,. from which he seems to have been dropped at some earlier date. In the study of this ques-tion, Cardinal Lambertini (the future Benedict XIV) published a st~orig defe'nce of Joseph's position as patriarch. He wrote, ~ '"That St. Joseph can be called Patriarch is proved from the fact that the patriarchs, according to the holy Fathers and both ancient ~nd more recent writers, were those who were the progenitors of the ;Leo XIII, Quarnquara Pluries. 6O .March, 1951 ST. JOSEPH'S PATRONAGE families of the Chosen People. Since, therefore, St. Joseph was the putati~'e father of Christ our Lord, He who is the head of the pre-destined and the elect, the name of patriarch is for this reason rightly and deservedly attributed to St. Joseph, and by- this very name is he a,ddressed by most writers. "St. Joseph was not the natural father of Christ our~L-ord and did not generate Him, but this alone can prove that he was not the father of the faithful by natural generation, as. were the other patri-archs. It doesnot hinder him from being patriarch in a more perfect and more exalted manner according to the "explanation we have already giyen.''s The Di~nitq and Ef~cacy .'of St. Joseph's Patrohaqe Joseph's dignity both as Patriarch and as Patron of the Church is most exalted, for these two titles recognize in,him ar~ excellence that is absent in other men. The wider the extent of his patronage, so much the wider must be its dignity; and since Joseph's patronage is concerned wiLh the entire Church, he is, reverenced to a degree that is subordinate only to the honor given Mary. The sterling worth of the saint's office is also measured by the perfection on which it is based. Because he ~cted ast the father of Jesus, his patronage is an extension of his office oia earth. Yet, his role as patroh is not based merely on. a certain fittingness, as is the case of other saints. Instead, his God-g!ven titles of husb~and of Mary and father of Jesus directly place ~the interests of Christ's Church close to his heart. All this has b~en solemnly con.firme.d by ,official papal decree. The power of Joseph's intercession appears from his holiness, from his virginal fatherhood, and from his relationship to our Lady-. We know that the effi.cacy of a saint's intercession depends in general on his love of God and on his glory in heaven. The higher a soul exists in glory, by so much is he more acceptable to Ggd. Joseph's holiness and glory are considered second only to the holiness and glory of our Lady. Again with the sole exception of Mary, no one except St. Joseph ever had a quasi-authoritative position over Christ. No other saint shared that intimacy with the blessed Mediatrix of all graces which only Mary's virginal husband possessed. This gives Joseph a tre-mendous intercessory power which the Church has officially reco~- SBenedict XIV, De Beatif. Serv. Dei et Canon, Beat. I. 4, p. 2, c, 20; n. 57. 61 FRANCIS L. FILAS nized. Among other indicative actions it has approved and indul-genced a Memorare in imitation of the same type of prayer addressed to Mary: "Remember O most pure spouse of the Virgin Mary, St. Joseph, my beloved pat~ron, that never has it been heath that anyone invoked thy patronage and sought thy aid without being comforted. Inspired by this confidence, I come to thee and fervently commend myself to thee. O, despise not my petition, dear foster father of our Redeemer, but accep.t i~. graciously. Amen.''9 The Univ~rsatitg of St. Joseph's Patronage It would appear that Joseph's patronage as understood in its full extent embraces all those who owe their.salvation to the redemptive work of Jesus and to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. The reason is clear. Joseph was chbsen to be virginal father and virginal husband in order that the redemptive work of our Lord in co-operation with Mary might be accomplished. Hence, the saint's guardianship (which is the outgrowth of his protection of Jesus and our Lady) logically embraces all who participate in the fruits of the Redemption. Meditative consideration of the full meaning of Joseph's title "reveals still further consequences in another direction. Since the saint is patron of the whole Church, his interests must be more universal than those of othe~ sa.ints. Other patrons concern themselves with one group of persons; Joseph is patron of all. Resultantly,.writers have amplified his title so that they describe him as universal patron because Patron of the Universal Church. In other words, he is the patron of everyone in every class. Because he was a member of an impoverished family of kings, the story of his life heartens all who suffer financial reverses. Earning his livelihood and supporting his holy charges at the carpenter's bench, he fittingly leads all who work for a living. In his actions we discover a guiding principle that can often hold true for every employer. He can look to Joseph, who, while supe-rior in authority, recognized that he was inferior in dignity and used his authority with the utmost moderation and prudence. Thus, while on the one hand St. Joseph inspires employers to provide just wages and healthful working conditions, on the other hand his example reminds employees to return fair and industrious service for °Indulg. 500 days, S. P. Ap., Jan. 20, 1933; Encbirid. Indulg. (1950), n. 472. 62 March, 1951 ST, JoSEPH'S PATRONAGE wages received. , ¯ . . Against the purveyors ofthe false ide.ologies of our day, Joseph stands out as the antithesis of racial prejudice and international ha-tred. Himself a Jew, he suffered because of the political dreams of a monarch '~ho was mad for power at any cost. Welcoming the for-eign Magi and then living in exile in a not too friencl, ly land, he knew the distress caused by prejudice against color and against race, Joseph's pIace as father in the Holy Family shows a11 fathers how steadfastly they must strive to imitate him in cherishing and educating their children. No husband can ever offer his wife a degree of fidelity and self'sacrifice great.er than thatwhich Joseph offered our Lady.' Hence, in him we behold the worthy patron of the Chris, tian family. As head bf Nazareth, the first Christian religious community, he exemplifies' the ideal religious superidr~ the serv'ant of the servants of God. Simultaneously his absolute and unquesti6ning obedience to the messengers of God mark him dut as the mbd~l foe priests and religious.' When ~he end comes to his iS~riod of. service Joseph di~s in the presehce of Jesus and Mary and is made the.gr.and protecto~ at the hour of death--the friend who le~ds departing souls peacefully to their Judge. " ' In our own age st. Joseph's patror;age'of labbr has been particu-larly emphasized~ Closely coupled with thi~ '~mphasis was the new honor grfinted him in 1937 by Plus XI. 'At ~hat tlm~ '£he Pope dec!.ared him the patron of the Church's campaign again.st atheistic communism, for"he ~belgngs to the work~ing-clas~, and he bor~ th~ burdens of i~6verty for himself and the Holy Family, whose tender and vigilant hea'd he was.''~° Universal Patron--Papal Pronouncements ¯ We possess sound Church authority for, claiming St. Joseph as the universal patron of the Church. The encyclical, of.Leo XIII, after tracing the saint's present office to his earlier,vocation on earth, continues, "This is the reason why the faithful of al! places and con-ditions commend and confide themselves to the guardianship of Blessed Joseph. In Joseph fathers of families have an eminent model of patern~l care.and providence. Married couples' find in him the perfec.t image, 6f love., harmony, and conjugal loyalty. Virgins can look to him for their pattern and as the guardian of virginal integ-rity. " " ¯ ~0Pius XI, Dioini Redemptoris, AAS 29, 106. FRANCIS L. FILAS Review for Religious '"With the picture of Joseph set before them, those of noble lineage can learn to preserve their dignity even under adverse circtim-stances. Let the wealt,hy understand what goods they should chiefly seek and earnestly amass, while with no less special right the needy, the In, borers, and all possessed of merely modest means should fly to his protection and learn to imitate him.''11 The Pope's.Briet~ on the Holy Family is entirely devoted to the subject of family life, placing Joseph with Mary and Jesus as a family exemplar.12 In the words of Benedict XV, "Since Joseph (whose death took place in the presence of Jesus and Mary) is justly regarded as the most efficacious protector of the dying, it is our purpose here to lay a special injunction on Our Venerable Brethren that they assist in every possible manner those pious associations.which have been insti-tuted to obtain the intercession of St. Joseph for the dying.''1~ The Litany of St. Joseph The shortest official summary of the Saint's patronage is found in the Litany of St. Joseph, approved by Plus X in 1909. This Litany expands; as it were, Leo XlII's earlier catalogue of.Joseph's clients --"all the faithful of all places and conditions." The action of Plus X in sanctioning the Litany of St. Joseph for use in public services gave Josei~h one of his most exclusive honors. Only four other litanies have been granted this rare and signal approval: the Litanies of the Sacred Heart and of the Holy Name of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin!s Litany of Loreto, and the Litany of the Saints (with its" two' adaptations for Holy Saturday and the Vigil of Pentecost, and for the commendation of a departing soul). The use of a litany as a form of prayer dates from the very earli-est days of the Church. The word itself comes from the Greek term, lissamai, "I pray," Probably Psalm 135 is the prototype on which the first Christians modeled their primitive litanies: "Praise the Lo~rd, for He is good; for His mercy endureth forever." Here, after every statement of the Psalmist, the phrase is repeated, "for His mercy endureth forever." This repetition of the same prayer has passed over into our mod-ern litanies. When addressing God we beg, "Have mercy on us"; when petitioning a saint's intercession, we say, "Pray for us." In. this manner, God or our Lady (and in the present instance, St. Jo-l~- Leo XIII, Quaraquam Pturies. 12Leo XIII, Neminem Fugit, Decr. No. 3777, CSR. l:~Benedict XV, Bonura Sane, AAS 12, 313. 64 Ma~h, 1951 ST. JOsEPH'S PATRONAGE seph) can be honored under different titles but always with the same petition. There is. a very interesting feature about the Litany of St. Jo-seph. Unlike the older litanies which spontaneously grew out of separate and more or less unrelated invocations this Litaoy was com-posed according to a rigid grouping. Seven tides depict the role that Joseph played on earth: Two concern his royal ancestry in preparation for the Messias: "'Illustrio~ts descendant of David"; "'Light of patriarchs"; Two, his relationship to Mary: "'Spouse of the Mother of God"; "'Chaste guardian of the Virgin"; Two, his relationship to Jesus: "'Foster father of the Son of God';; ¯ ' "'Watchful defender of Christ"; and finally, one' title as "'Head of the Hotg Famitg."" In the second group of invocations, six llst Joseph's special vir-tues: justice, chastity, prudence, valour, obedience, and faith. In the final division of eleven titles, four address him as ex-emplar: "'Mirror of patience"; . "'Lover of povert~t"; ~.,. "'Model of workmen"; "'Ornament of familg life"; and seven invoke him as a protecting patron: "'Guardian of Virgins"; "'Safeguard of families"; "'Consolation of the poor"; "'Hope of the sick"; "'Patron of the dgin9"; "'Terror of demons"; and "'Protector of Holg Church." For the final word on the patronage of St. Joseph, probably no tribute to the saint's widespread and powerful friendship will ever surpass the words of St. Teresa of Avila, long become classic: "It seems that to 'other saints our Lord has given power to help 65 FRANCIS L. FILAS:" " us.in only one kind'of: necessity; but this glorious saint, I know by my own experience, assists us in all kinds of necessities . I only request, for the love bf God., that. whoever will not belie~ve me will test the truth of what I say, forhe will see by experience how great a blessing it is to'recommend oneself to this glorious Patriarch and to be devout to him . Whoever wants a rnas~ei to instruct him how to pray, let him chobse tl~is glorious saint for his guide, and he will hot lose his way:''14 " ' THE FAMILY FOR FAMILIES One of the first of.the Catholic pocketbooks (50 centsL to be issued by the Lumen Books (P.O. Box 3386, Chicago 54, I11.) is a reprint of The Family for Families, by Francis L. Filas, S.J. In this behind-the-scenes story of the Holy Fam-ily at home Father F, ilhs, a'Ibioneer in the Cana Conference movement in the De-troit area. shows mode~;n husbands,and ~vives how they can share the happiness.and inspiration of the Nazareth home. Father Filas, also the author of Tbe Man Near-est Christ, is giving a cours,e at .Loyola University, Chica.go, on the theology of St. Joseph (cf.p.age 111)' " ¯ ; THE ASSUMPTION Pope Pius xII, on Octob'e~- 31, 1950, in connection with the formal definition, decreed that the invocation, Qr}een assumed into hedven, ¯should be added to the Litany of Loretto after the iti:cocation "Queen concei~d without original sin." He also approved a new Mass which is to replace the Mass formerly said on the Feast of the Assumption. . , . . ¯ our cONTRIBUTORS REGINALD HUGHES is .pr!or at S't. Peter Martyr Priory, Winona, Minnesota, and professor of philosophy] and religion at the College.of St. Teresa. WINFRID HERBST, author and retrea.t master, is on the faculty of the Salvatorian Seminary, St. Nazianz, Wisconsin. SISYER M. DIGNA is professor"of psychology at the Col-lege of' St. Schq~astica,, Duluth, Minesota. FRANCIS .L. ,FII~A$, the author of The Man Nearest Christ, is teach, lug at Loyola University, Ch!cago. Illinois. ¯ 14T~resa of Avila, Autobiooraphg, c. 6, n. 1 1. 66 Dominican Spirit:u lit:y Reginald Hughes, O.Po, UST beca'use they were men, the Apostles differed in tempera-ment and char.acter, peter was impetuous and quick; Paul, fi~ery and brilliant; John, loving and gentle. More than this, they were entrusted with distinct missions. Hence 'we cannot be 'surprised that the founders of religious orders, those wh6 took the apostolic band as their inspiration, manifested distinctive character-istics. St. Benedict consecrated his sons in a special way to the choral recitation of the Divine Office. The childreh of St. Francis find the secret of their spiritual Father in his seraphic poverty. St. Ignatius instituted a militia which united prudence and versatility to zeal for God's greater glory. St. Dominic was inspired to form an order of preachers and teac~hers, a closely knit organization dedicated to the diffusion of Divine '.Truth. ¯ Our Lord Himself revealed this .fact to St. Catherine of Siena when He told her: '~'Thy Father, Dominic, desired that his brethren have no other thought than the salvation of souls by the light of knowledge. It is this light that ~he wished to make tl~e principal object of his. order, to extirpate the errors existing in his day." Truth, then, contemplated and preached, is the ideal of the Order of St.Dominic. How faithful the early disciples of Dominic were to'this ideal We learn from the Vicars of Christ. In 1216, Pope Honorius III approved them as "champions of. the Faith and l!ghts of the world." POpe Alexander IV recommended them in 1257 as "men steeped in the divine science, powerf.ul preachers." In 1266, Pope Clement IV could laud their order as the "Guardian of T;uth." Not only that, but these decades, penetrated with the spirit of Dominic himself, produced in his order the friar who became the incarnation in his life and w~rks of the idefil which his'spiritual Father had envisaged. "See the glorious Thomas. Wldat a none intelligence, wholly applied to the contemplation of my Truth. There he found supernatural and infused knowledge, and this grace he obtained more by his prayers than by study." It would seem obvious that an investigation of the principles of Dominican life and spirituality would fittingly begin with an inter- 67 REGINALD HUGHES Review/or Religious rogation of the Angelic Doctor and his writings. Therein must be found those cardinal principles which have inspired the spiritual children of Domin'ic Guzman for more than seventy decades; We shall not be disapl~ointed in our search if we turn to the Summa Theologica, Thomas' masterpiece of Christian thinking. As a primary and fundamental principle Thomas would seem to advocate the fullest development of one's natural faculties. God has created us for His honor and glory, and to help us fulfill this mission He has endowed us with wonderful natural powers and properties: a spiritual soul, with an intellect, will, imagination and memory; a b.ody, with the physical ability of achievi.ng our earthly destiny. Each one of these gifts of Almighty God has within itself the capability of being developed to a certain degree of perfection that we call natural. Our duty is to develop all these natural powers, however not of ourselves nor for ourselves, but with God and for God alone. He has given us all that we have of goodness; He alone preserves us in the very existence we enjoy. The realization of this principle is witnessed in a grand phalanx of preachers,.: theologians, scripture scholars, canon lawyers, mystics, ascetics, philosophers, s~ientists, medical doctors, historians, painters, sculptors, miniaturists, architects, artists, engineers, litterateurs, poets, and simple, humble souls who have taken their inspiration from St. Dominic and placedtheir own distinctive mite and talents where they might best serve God's glory. But Thomas would remind us, when we have discovered all that nature in its very perfection can do, we must realize that it is as nothing in comparison, with the life of grace, the supernatural life of the soul, to which life God has raised us. This supernatural order surpasses the powers and exigencies of every created nature---even that of the most perfect angel. God could keep on creating angels more and more.perfect, yet never by their natural powers alone could they attain to the least degree of grace, There is simply no compari-son between created natur.e, actual or possible, and the Divine Na-ture, of which grace is a real and formal participation. By nature God gives us gratuitously to ourselves; by grace He" gives Himself gratuitously to us. Thus nature and grace are as distinct from each other as we are from God--infinitely. The just soul is "a partaker of the Divine Nature" insofar as it has within itself the radical prin-ciple of supernatural life, the life of God. St. Thomas tells us that 68 March, 1951 DOMINICAN SPIRITUALITY. the sanctifying grace of a single soul is of more value than all the natural good of the universe, m.'9(~ than all created or possible angelic natures combined. " -:" We can hardly conceive ~( higher idea of the order of grace. Neither can we' admit that thei'e is in us the least germ of this super-natural life. It is absolutely and entirely "the free gift of Almighty God. We have, it is true,, the purely passive capacity of being raised to the supernatural life. .This capacity, however, is no greater in the most perfect angel than in the humblest Christian soul. o And if the latter die with a degree of grace equal to that of the most perfect angel, she will see God as perfectly as that angel does. Such are some of the notions of the Angelic Doctor with regard to the order of grace and the supernatural. Our Faith teaches us that we are destined to this supernatural life. Grace is but the commence-ment of it, the seed of our eternal happiness. The effects of grace, he says, are the healing 6f the soul, wounded by sin, original or actual; the incentive to good desires; the effective operation .of these desires; final perseverance and eternal happiness. Grace unites us to God in charity, supernaturalizes every good action, elevates and perfects us as creatures of an infinitely superior world. The necessity of grace is such that without it we canfiot love God above all things, we cannot fulfill all the precepts of the natural law, we cannot abstain from all mortal sins and we dannot persevere in a good life until death. This teaching of Dominican spirituality thus. emphasizes our complete dependence upon the grace of God~ Are we then reduced to mere machines? No. We have free wills and God saves no man who has not the dksire to be saved. But He does command us to pray, to ask for His. grace and assistance, to beseech Him to bless us with those good gifts which He has determined to bestow only when we ask for them.° By prayer we recognizd God as the sole Author of all good and we realize that we have nothing of ourselves but sin. Thomas used to say that since natural wisdom is the gift of God, man ought not try or hope to acquire it by dint of study without humbly asking for it in prayer. Briefly, these are three'guiding principles of Dominican spir-ituality to be drawn from the Summa Theologica: the development of human nature; the infinite superiority of the life of grace; our complete dependence upon God, with the obligation to pray and labor ceaselessly for His honor and our eternal salvation. 69 REGINALD HUGHES Review for Reli~lious The important place that this spirituality gives to the natural development of our superior faculties has occasioned an accusation of naturalism by some who preferred to consider Thomas more of a philosopher than a theologian. Some have held that the Summa itself savors more of Aristotelian wisdom' than of the Gospel and St. Paul. However, since St. Thomas possessed a very precise notion of the power and purpose of human nature, he comprehended better any, thing that deformed it, all that was unregulated in it. The rooting out and healing of human defects is always considered by him from the point of view of the first cause and the last end, God. He de-clares that true human renovation in our present state is impossible without grace, whose two principal functions are to heal nature an'd elevate it supernaturally. Hence when Thomas speaks of natural perfection and the acquired virtues which constitute it, he is speaking not only as a philosopher, but also as a Christian and a theologian. Dominican spirituality emphasizes as well the infinite superi-ority of the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity, over the natural knowledge and love of G6d, and also over the natural knowledge of miracles and other signs of revelation. Our infused act of faith is not a natural act clothed over with supernatural mo-dality. It Is essentially supernatural. Its immediate formal motive is none other than Divine revealing Truth. Consequently, it is in-finitely superior to an act of faith made by the devil, founded on the natural evidence of miracles~ even though the devil has infused ideas more perfect than our acquired ones. From this point of view One conceives as well the inestimable value of the least act of charity, the elevation of the infused moral virtues above the acquired moral vir-tues, and the grandeur of the gifts of the Holy Ghost which render us docile to His inspirations. If, as for St. Thomas, fidelity to the Holy Spirit normally leads " one to the living waters of prayer, what should be said of the relation between contemplation and the apostolate? Does the intensity of the first demand the sacrifice of the second, and can the latter hope to be nourished by the warmth and light of the former? Dominican spirituality replies: the teaching of sacred doctrine and preaching ought to be derived from the plenitude of contempla-tion. In the language of St. Thomas these words have a very special significance. Contemplation is not ordained to action as a means subordinate to an end, such as study in view of a lecture, but it pro-duces it as from a superior cause. The culminating point in the life 70 March, 1951 DOMINICAN SPIRITUALITY of the apostle is the hour of Unibn with God in prayer. From this union he should return to men filled with the light of life, to speak of God and lead them to Him. Thus St. Thomas considers the active life and the purely con-templative life as means less perfect than the aposiolic life uniting both. As Christ and the twelve, the modern apostle should be a contemplative who gives to others the fruits of his contemplation to sanctify them. "°"'Contempla,re et contemplata aliis tradere," the motto of Dominican spirituality, are the very words of St. Thomas. With the hours of recollectioia which it exacts, contemplation, far from impeding apostolic activity, is its source. Thomas would say: where our contemplation ceases, there ends our apostolate also. Without it, without the desire to prepare one's self for it, inflated with knowledge, the soul radiates light no longer. Practical natural-ism envelops it and can wholly destroy it. Such divine contemplation as is demanded by Dominican spir-ituality makes one forget what flatters or bruises one's personality. It turns one always to God and souls; it suppresses the fever of superficial activity and spiritualizes one, causes him to act pro-foundly, to say much in a few words. ,~ Such a contemplative and apostolic life was lived by Dominic and many saints and blesseds of his religious family who preached and taught with indefatigable zeal and fire of which the Psalmist speaks: "ignitum eloquium tuum vehementer" (Ps. 1 15). That is one reason why Thomas himself is such a model of Dominican spirituality. Everything he did--pray, preach, teach, or write--he did with all the zeal and eagerness his heart could sug-gest. Zeal, he tells us, is nothing other than intense love, and the measure of our love of God is to love Him without measure. It is significant to note that Dominic, his successor, Blessed Jordan of Saxony, Blessed Reginald, Thomas, Pope Innocent V, St. Louis Bertrand--all died comparatively young. St. Catherine of Siena and St. ,Rose of Lima did not live thirty-five years, and the eleven-year old heart of Imelda Lambertini burst from the intensity of her love of God. "I feel and am persuaded," said St. Thomas, "that the chief duty of life, which.I owe to God, is in all my words, as in all my. thoughts, to speak. His praise." It was then the genius of St. Dominic that he placed his order as it were midway between the older monastic groups that had con-templatibn and personal sanctification as their aim, and the later 71 REGINALD HUGHES Review for Religious active orders that followed the Dominican lead in working for souls. Dominic envisioned the salvation of souls as the cherished fruitage of his prayer, his study and his teaching. Thus to the older monastic observances he added intensive study because there can be no opposition between truth discovered by study and contemplated Divine Truth. A Dominican does not contemplate and study pri-marily in order to preach and save souls, but he is filled with the zeal for the apostolate because through prayer and study he has acquired a deep personal knowledge of God. The closer a man is to Christ, the more apostolic he becomes. Dominican spirituality includes as well a liturgy peculiarly its own and" has guarded it carefully since its approbation by Pope Clement IV in 1267. It is essentially a Roman liturgy, and if any single peculiarity about it were to be noted it would be that it en-closes in its ceremonies a note of solemnity imprinted upon it by the antiquity of its customs and chant; that its prayers have a decidedly theological tone. In fact, it is the liturgy that rules the life of the Friar Preacher. Study, work, recreation, even sleep is set aside in favor of choral reci-tation of the Office, as the injunction of one of the early legislative Chapters of the Order notes: "The Office takes precedence of all our activities." It is easy to understand why St. Dominic gave such an impor-tant place to the observance of the liturgy in the life of his children. First of all, because it is divine worship par excellence, aiding one to perfect his duty of glorifying God. It also leads religious to the perfection of their state of life, because it is a simple and sure way to assimilate one's life to that of Christ, the model of religious. One might ask, what is the connection in Dominican life between the liturgy on one side, and study and the importance of the aposto-late ori the other side? The answer is that the liturgy does not take a religious from the essential object of his studies: God. The lit-urgy itself is the depository of Catholic doctrine condensed in pray-ers, in extracts from the Scriptures and the writings of the Fathers. It has been called living dogma speaking to the heart as well as to the head. T.he Friar Preacher in regularly dividing his time between study and liturgical prayer in no way sacrifices the latter but makes the former more fruitful. Frequent returns to choir keeps study from becoming simply an intellectual work and cold speculation. The danger of intellectualism can hardly menace one who joins 72 March, 1 ~ 51 DOMINICAN SPIRITUALITY study and preaching and teaching with the solemn prayers of the Church. The truth which the religious finds in his books, he dis-covers again in living liturgical formulas. Thanks to the liturgy theology can become a science filled with deep contemplation. As St. Vincent Ferrer has phrased it: "Through this interchange of prayer and study you will have a heart more fervent in prayer and a mind mor~ clarified for study." Not the least attractive feature of Dominican liturgical life is the perfect freedom which it affords~ in the matter of personal prayers. In the organization of Dominican daily life, everything conduces to contemplation. St. Dominic n~ver had any idea of limiting prayer to certain determined periods or forms. The earliest Con~stitutions consecrated the entire day to Go~d. When the Dominican is obliged to silence it is that he may bet-ter forget th~ world and himself that he may the better hear God. When he is placed under obedience to study, it is that the soul may be steeped in ~he beauty of the~ divine mysteries. Thus for him, study, liturgical prayer, - and pe.rsonal prayer suppose one another, sustain one another, penetrate ~n~ anothe~r. To violate them, to separate them, and to compare [~hem jealously would be to falsify the economy of Dominican life! In other Words, the Friar studies to pray better and prays that he may study better. If o~ were to seek characteristics of Dominican prayer he would find first that it is disciplined a,nd strong because saturated with the dogmas of ~he Faith; that it is humble, with a humility begotten of contemplation of the Divine M.ajesty: I am that which is; ~ou are that which is not"; and eminently free, because knowledge begets love and nothing is freer than tl~e love of God. Thus we find a marvellous ~ariety among the Dominican saints. Each one keeps his own distinci physiognomy, his personal tenden-cies, his preferred virtues, and b~ings together underthe same domes-tic roof differences of race, environment, and education. Yet they are all marked by the same distinctive note: the zeal for souls through the doctrinal apostolate. Each a[Ids his own personal note: a Vincent Ferrer, Spanish impetuosity a~d indomitableness; a Henry Suso, Teutonic mildngss and melancholy; a Catherine of Siena, Italian ardor ar;d harmony. It was th, le late Archbishop Paschal Robinson, O.F.M., who once said: "Dominican saints are wonderfully natural in their goodness." In order to prove our virtu~ and to increase our merit, God per- 73 REGINALD HUGHES Revieu; for Religious mits the power of death to exist in us. The body weighs down the soul, 'the flesh struggles against the spirit. Sin has broken the har-mony between the powers of the soul and their Creator. To re-establish order and to correspond to appeals' from our Saviour, vig-orous restraint must be imposed. Dominican spirituality does not ignore this, but prescribes the practices necessary to subdue rebellious forces of nature and to employ their liberated energies for the realiza-tion of the supreme design of Dominican life. It has been said that were a text to be chosen which should express Dominican spirituality, nothing could be more appropriate than the words of Our Lord set down by St. John: "The truth shall make you~ free." The children of Dominic have ever aimed at Truth and have. thus achieved freedom. Dominican spirituality has thus been likened to the architecture that flourished when the Order began its course in the thirteenth century--joyous and unrestrained-- springing up from earth as though it were part of the earth, pointing upwards as though it were part of heaven. "The Heavenly Husbandman, the Supreme Author and Protector of the Faith, has planted in the paradise of the Church as a fertile tree the Sacred Order of Preachers to exhilarate it by its beauty, to satiate it by the abundance and the exquisite savor of its fruits. Of superb aspect, filled with vigorous and dulcet strength, steeped in the morning dew of heaven, this tree is a source of life for the weak, of health for the infirm. Hence innumerable Christians, nourished by its salutary fruits, are endeavouring to shed around them its life-giving influence." (Alexander IV-~1257.) FRANCES SCHERVIER CAUSE ADVANCES After the Sacred Congregation of Rites examined the processes conducted by ordinary and apostolic authority relative to the life, virtues and miracles of the Servant of God, Mother France} Schervier (1819-1876), Foundress of the Sisters of the Poor of St. Francis (1845), the S.C. of Rites recently decreed the processei valid. Preparations are under way for the next step towards beatification, namely: the judgment on the heroic character of the virtues in particular. In this country the community conducts twenty-eight institutions including General Hospitals, Special Hospitals and Social Service Centers, located in .the Arch-dioceses of Cincinnati, Newark, New York and Indianapolis, also in the Diocese~ of Covington, Columbus, Brooklyn, Springfield in Illinois, Kansas City in Kansas, Charleston, Lansing, Steubenville and Albany. 74 A Tentative Testing Program t:or Religious Lit:e Sister M. Digna, O.S.B. THE interest expressed in the use of psychometrics as one means of evaluating the fitness of aspirants to religious life'~nd as objec-tive guides for the counseling of young religious has motivated the formulation of the following tentative testing program. The primary purpose of the testing program is to screen possibly unfit candidates before admission, or before they have assumed"responsi-bilities that they may be unable to carry¯ Unfitness is one of the indications that an individual has not been called to the life of reli-gion for, as canon 538 states, "Every Catholic who is not debarred by any legitimate impediment . . . and is fit to bear the burdens of the religious life, can be admitted into religion." Father 3osepb Creusen, S.,I., professor of canon law at the Gregorian University, Rome, interprets this further. He says, "But the presence of an obstacle which the subject cannot do away with of his own accord or the lack of aptitude, would suffice to show that this desire is the result of a call to a more perfect life in general, and not of a vocation to the religious life in particular.''1 How does one determine an obstacle or a lack of aptitude? Is it best decided on the basis of subjective opinion? Should scientific methods be employed? Communities now utilize the findings of medical science¯ What about the scientific findings in the field of psychometrics?. True, it is a new.field and one would never wish to rely on the findings of any single test or inventory as the sole deter-minant of fitness for religious life, but these data may implement or supplement other subjective impressions and observation; they may be good clues to hidden motives and personality "kinks" that may be corrected before becoming "set." Any testing program for religious life must necessarily be tenta-tive, for there are no tests, other than intelligence tests, that have been devised in terms applicable to religious life. In establishing a testing program for any community, one must consider such factors as trained or untrained personnel, interpretation of the data, and use of the findings. The ideal prerequisite is that some member of the 1Religious Men and Women in the Code, p. 129. 75 SISTER M. DIGNA Ret~iew for Religious community be trained in the field of psychometrics. As a prelim-inary step, several basic courses in tests and measurements may suffice. In lieu of trained personnel, the services of someone who is sympathet.ic to testing, who will conscientiously adhere to manuals of directions, and who will be extremely careful in interpreting results may be utilized. Much emphasis needs to be placed upon the inter-pretation of the findings, lest an individual be kept from the reli-gious 'life because of hastily drawn conclusions not warranted by the test or inventory itself. The examiner must assemble all types of information. The administrator will then make a careful study of all the data before recommending the admission or rejection of the aspirant. In case the applicant is accepted, the data may. also assist in orienting him to the religious life. A director provided with all the subjective and objective facts about the candidate can help him to a speedier and holier adjustment to religious life. ¯ Use of Intelligence Tests Other things being equal, a director can give better religious guidance according to his knowledge of the subject's degree of intel-ligence. Intelligence tests help one to gain this knowledge. One test, which may be referred to here as an example of the use of. intel-ligence tests, is the California Test of Mental Maturity, advanced series. This test has a number of significant features. .It is both diagnostic and analytical, and the scores may be interpreted in terms of mental ages and intelligence quotients: It includes items dealing with language fadtors, non-language factors, memory, spatial rela-tions, logical .reasoning, numerical reasoning, and vocabulary. The pre-tests are visual acuity, the purpose of which is to discover whether the examinees can see well enough to take the remaining .tests with fairness to themselves; the auditory acuity test, to discover whether individuals hear well enough what is said to them in an ordiliary tone of voice to warrant the giving of the tests; and a third to deter-mine the degree of motor coordinations the examinee possesses. After¯ the tests proper have been¯ administerd, the test results may be interpreted in terms of the language test data, which ale useful in indicating how well the individual understands relationships ex-pressed in words, and the non-language tests data indicating how well the individual ufiderstands relationships among things or ob-jects when language is not involved. The significance of these addi-tional data for guidance, selection, and placement is obvious in that 7,6 March, 1951 TESTING PROGRAM they Will make possible a more appropriate consideration of the real abilities of ti~e person. David .Wecbsler's interpretation of intelli-gence quotients for ages ten to ~ixtyu may be used: 128 and over, very superior; 120-127, superior; 1 I1-I I9, high average; 9i-I10, average; 80-90, low average; 66-79, borderline; and below 65," defective. What are the implications of these figure~ in any psychological testing program? First, the elimination of those unable to grasp the meaning of religious life; and secondly, the utilization of intelligence scores for determining the educational and vocational placement of religious. .In general, the intelligence score of the applicant is one more concrete evidence of the intellectual ability of, the individual. Those who are inferior or very low may need to be re-tested. If the score places the individuals below the low average, it is very doubtful whether they will be useful in religious life, unless the community is willing to assign them to very simple tasks. Then these questions arise: how well will they be able to understand the meamng and implications of religious life? How much benefit will they derive from the novitiate instruction? And will the community be willing to assume responsibility for possible custodial care? Personalitg Tests Intelligence is only one factor. Other factors such as background, personality, aptitudes, and interests should be considered when one applies, for admission into the religious life. Since the personality "from the philosophical point of view is too abstract an approach to give the necessary clues to the'individual's potentialities in getting along with others, the more concrete, approach is considered, here. The social skills which are basic to getting along with others are ski.lls that can be acquired. In community life gra- ¯ ciousness of manner and social skills need to be supernaturalized by stressing the virtue of charity as the- motivating force. What are the potentialities for an individual to get along with others and to sublimate the ups and downs of routine living with diverse temperaments? A personality needs to be free from nervous symptoms and introvertive or anti-social tendencies to adjust to reli-gious life. Even the most conscientious and holy novice master or mistress will succeed only in veneering a personality unless he recog-nizes the basic causes for certain personality defects. True, it may, 2The Measu~'ament of Adult Intelligence, p. 40. 7.7 SISTER M. D[GNA Review fol Religiou~ and likely will; happen that the subject makes a valiant effort to overcome these "faults,~' but if the fight seems continually a losing one, and the pressure of close supericision is removed, there is little doubt that the individual will revert to his innate tendencies. How detect these underlying causes, for maladjustments? No foolproof method of appraising personality has yet been devised. G~nerally, the personality scale takes the form of a rating scale. A definite assumption should motivate the use of any one of several rating scales. Most personality ratings have a number of valid uses if and when they are well administered. Common sense should operate in determining the purposes of the ratings and how they are to be used. Personal'ity tests are not as precise as or as easily interpreted as I.Q. tests; they are indicators rather than measure-ments of personality, and they p'rovide worthwhile leads to work upon for, symptomatic indications of emotional conflicts, maladjust-ments, tensions, anti-socialattitudes, and anxieties. A good person-ality is one that has achieved a balance between self and those around one. The self-adjustment is often indicated in terms of self-reliance, sense of personal worth, sense of belonging, sense of freedom, and freedom from withdrawing and nervousness. The adjustment toward others is interpreted in terms of social standards, social skills, whole-some gregariousness, family and social relationships. Among the several tests suitable for a testing program is the Cali-fornia Test of PerSonality. It includes items that will reveal the presence or absence of desirable or undesirable traits. The test is easy to administer and easy to score and, although the interpretation of the scores is almost self-evident, it is. wise for the one who interprets the test to explore further and probe deeper the other data on the person, particularly the intelligence quotient, the family history, and previous schooling record. In general, letters of recommendation are not too reliable, for tile tendency of.many, flattered by having to recommend an individual, is to put a halo around the person. The expressed purpose of the authors of the California Personality Test is to enable counselors to appraise and to improve thh personality of all ages. This instrument" makes possible a detailed and patterned diagnosis of personality adjustment as a basis for improvement that is possible of realization. Another test, the Bell Adjustment Inventory, attempts to get a reliable measure of an individual's personality in ihe areas of home, health, social, emotional, and occupational adjustments. This inven- 78 March, 1951 A TESTING PROGRAM tory is not more: than thirty minutes in length and it is easy to ad-minister, with simple and clear directions. The time for scoring each' test is not more than three minutes. In utilizing the inventory, the administrator needs to realize that, whereas it is more objective and more penetrating than observation, the results should be used only to implement other data. The Personality Inventory by Bernreuter has four specific areas which are assessed. B1-N is a measure of neurotic tendencies. A person scoring high on this scale tends to be emotionally unstable. Those scoring above the 98~percentile would probably need psychi-atric or medical advice, and certainly one would be hesitant about admitting aspirants to religious life with exceptionally oh'igh scores in this area without further consultation with a medical man. The B2-S is a measure of self-sufficiency.' Persons scoring high on this scale prefer to be alone, rarely ask for sympathy or encourggement, and tend to ignore the advice of others. The low score indicates the type of personality disliking to be alone, and often seeking advice of others. Perhaps scores on this section would in no way debar the aspirant from admission into religious life or from the priesthood, but in directing and guiding the individual, the scores offer clues to innate causes for externaI behavior. Modification of undesirable behavior patterns can best be attained by a.clear understanding of the innate causes. The B3-1 section of the Bernreuter Inventory meas-ures introversion-extroversion, with the high scores indicating intro-version, the low, extroversion. A score above the 98 percentile in this part of the inventory bears a similar significance to a high score on the BI-H section. The B4-D classifies the personality of the individual as either dominant or submissive. Low scores represent the naturally submissive type of individual. The use of the Minnesota Personality Scale and its interpreta~ tion was explained in considerable detail in a previou, s article.8 Unless there are trained individuals for interpreting the results, a community is wise to begin a testing program without attempting the more refined techniques of personality assessment through such projective techniques as the Rorschach Method. The Thematic Apperception Test or the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inven-tory should be administered and interpreted only by individuals trained to do so. As an initial step, it seems wiser to resort to the 8"Practical Application of Psychometrics to Religious Life," by Sister M. Digna, O.S.B., in REVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS, IX, 132-39. 79 SISTER M. DIGNA " Reoieto for Religious simpler tests that can be administered and interpreted by a beginner before attempting to use more penetgating tests. Other Tests To insure better adjustment in religious life, some cognizance might well be taken of the individual interest and occupational pref- .erences. General and occupational interest inventories reveal whether the level, types, and fields of work offered meet the interests and the needs of the individuals. In planning effective community place-ment, an appraisal of the competencies, strengths, and weaknesses of the individual as they relate to a given area of worl~ or a specific task will often insure greater satisfaction on the part of the community as well as th~ individual. Two rather well-known and fairly reliable tests are the Kuder Preference Record, and Strong's Interest Blank. The Kuder Pref- .erence Record determines the types of activities which people prefer. The manual lists typical occupations which may correspond to the :preferred type of activity. Scores are designed to be recorded in the form of a graphic profile showing the percentile rank of the indi-vidual for each type of activity. Form BB gives scores for the fol-lowing activities: mechanical, computational, scientific, persuasive, artistic, literary, musical, social service, and clerical. The test is easy to administer, to, correct, and to interpret. Strong's Vocational In-terest Blank, one for women and one for men, is considered by some authorities more reliable than that of Kuder, but the scoring is very difficult. It is advisable to bare the answer sheets scored by machine, which costs from fifty cents to a dollar for each blank. The under-lying purpose of this appraisal of vocational interest is to indicate how closely the individual's interests correspond, with those of men and women successfully engaged in certain occupations. There are over 35 occupations, six occupational groups and three non-occupa-tional traits for men; for women, over 17 occupations and one non-occupational trait. Since there is a re!ationship between the level of the intelligence quotient and adult occupational adjustment, the following classifica-tion of Bernreuter and Cart4 may be of interest to those who wish to think of future work in terms of measured ability. These au-thorities believe .that the person with superior intelligence (115 and 4"The Interpretation of I.Q.'s on the L-M Stanford-Binet." in Journal of Educa-tional Psychology, XXIX, 312-14. 80 March, 195 l PEACE upward) will be best qualified for professional work requiring college or university training, the individual having a measured normal in-telligence quotient (85-114) will succeed in work requiring high school training, and the low average or dull person with an intelli-gence quotient between 70 and 84, unskilled work. The main rea-sons for using interest tes(s ar,e to isolate, evaluate, and utilize the findings showing aptitudes and interests which are required for the different types of occupations, An adequate testing program for religious communities requires the accumulation of objective, evidence regarding the competencies, weaknesses, and strengths of the candidate. The data should include information regarding the physical, mental, educatio;aal, vocational, and social status of the applicant. The findings need to be integrated as an aid in arriving at the most satisfactory conclusions. The obvious limitations of objective testing devices should be noted, but the failure to use them at all is almost certain to result in great inac-curacies of diagnosis, since personal observation and judgment are not completely reliable. Peace Winfrid Herbst, S.D.S. OF ALL the good things the Savior desires for you, one of the .first is peace. "Pax vobis!" Those were His first thrilling words to the Apostles assembled in the Upper Room after His resurrection. You must ever strive to acquire this deep, interior, lasting peace--a calm, spiritual contentment--and it must influence your exterior actions by making them deliberate and quietly, al-though sensibly, precise. Walking in the presence of God and unceasing watchfulness over your tongue are two means of obtaining and preserving peace. They are particularly helpful, even necessary for you. And there are two secret societies which you may join to your great spiritual advantage, namely, the KYMS and the MYOB. Those letters mean Keep Your Mouth Shut andMind Your Own Business. The careful observance of these directives means greater peace of heart than you would at first believe. 81 WINFRID HERBST Review for Religious You have been a religious long enough to know the calm and contentment that comes to one who reposes trustingly in the arms of God. "Thou hast made us for Thyself, 0 God, and our hearts are not at rest until they rest in Thee." How well you have learned to understand and to feel this, even here below. From now on may yours be a lasting Pax in Domino. Remember the days when the thought of the eternal years, even with God, filled your soul With strange and crushing dread? It is a far cry from that day to this, when your soul is filled with peace and repose at the thought that you belong to God. How long it takes before we understand even a little! But, sometimes, after years of effort and meditation, a certain truth will come to life in a flash. In an instant we seem to realize--and the realization endures. Of late you have been much drawn to meditation on God, as He is in Himself, as thus set forth in glowing words by the Vatican Council: "The Catholic Church believes that there is .one true and living God, the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, Almighty, Eternal, Immense, Incomprehensible, Infinite in intellect and will and in all perfection; who, being one, individual, altogether simple and unchangeable Substance, must be asserted to be really and essen-tially distinct from the world, most happy in Himself, and ineffably exalted above everything that exists or can be conceived." And then it came home to you with astonishing light and truth that this great God became also Man for love of you! And you profess your faith in the being and power of ~our God; you profess your hope in His wisdom; and you profess your love for Him as the Supreme Good. You pray to Him that He may ever give you the grace to rest peace-fully in the arms of His Providence--in a word, to be completely happy, satisfied, and content that you belong to God. The closer your union with God, the greater will be your peace of heart. You realize this; and that is why there comes from the very depths of your heart the longing prayer: "0 my God, would that I could attain my ideal in the matter of my daily Mass and Com-munion and Office; my evaluation of my vocation; the perfect ob-servance of the Rule; the most perfect observance of the vows, which make me a religious; the spiritual exercises of every day, all of them, during the whole time prescribed! How happy I would then be! My ideal is ever before me. It is clear and definite, outlined in my "law book," the constitutions. To reach it means sanctity. But strive as I may--and the past years have literally been years of be- 82 Ma~h, 195l PEACE ¯ ginnings--I do not seem to be able to attain the heights. Help me, my Savior, to go forward slowly but surely, in a calm, sensible, de-termined way. Come, Holy Ghost, guide me always through those who speak to me in conferences, sermons, chapter exhortations, con-fessional advice, retreat considerations, spiritu,al books--guide me always; for Thou knowest how much circumstances make it neces-sary for me to be thus guided by Thee. Then will I have that peace of heart which surpasses all understanding." Peace will abound in your spiritual life if you let your reverence for God manifest itself by recollection in prayer. Try every day to pray a little more than is necessary, in order to safeguard what is prescribed. And after reverence for God must come reverence for your superiors, who take God's place in your regard. Show them the utmost loyalty, disregarding their faults. Thereupon must come reverence for equals or inferiors. Be sure to treat them all with the deference and respect due to the chosen friends of God. And in all these things there must be respect for self. Of yoursdf you are indeed nothing; yet you must reverence yourself and have great confidence. You must be a worthy child of your Father in heaven. You must-not be a coward and thus seem to make a failure of Almighty God. Pray to the Savior that you may be thus reg, erent. Peace of heart can be lost by being so engrossed in the Father's business that you neglect your daily prayers and spiritual exercises, or at least perform them in a maze of distractions. That will never do. You must never lose yourself in external activity to the detri-ment of inward recollection and union with God." Never let your-self be permanently overwhelmed with work or business. No; rather your vocal prayers must be said without haste; your mental prayer must be calm and quiet, with a varied method and a generous ad-mixture of vocal ejaculatory prayers. Your meditation may not, week after week, be of that more-dead-than-alive sort. Remember, in a practical way, that one prayer is always good-~"Lord, teach us to pray." Let this be your determined resolution and an oft repeated re-solve, one that means great mortification and corresponding progress in the spiritual life: "No matter when or where, I will perform all my spiritual" exercises, eoert.I day, during the whole time prescribed for them, and with devotion." Failure to do this means dissatisfac-tion with self, letting oneself go, ~nd consequent misery because one is not what one professes to be. It is a hard resolution to keep, but 83 ANONYMOUS Review for Religious the peace of heart it brings--and glory of God--is worth it. Do not grow weary of being good. It may be that some day, for a moment at least, you will feel such a deep, personal, sweet, and de-lightful love for our dear Lord that, thus athrill with joy, you will realize for the first time in your life what heavenly happiness means, what bliss floods the soul when it is united with God. It may be a feeling of being in the arms of God, all enveloped by His love, all filled with a sensation of peace and satisfaction such as you cannot describe. And when yot~ are dying that same feeling just described may come over you, so that, exultant in the thought of going home to 3esus, flooded with spiritual joy, you exclaim, in the heart if not with the lips: "Oh, I did not think it was so sweet to die. I am so happy. I am so glad to go. My soul is enjoying a foretaste of heavenly peace." Why Do They Leave? [AUTHOR'S NOTE. The reflections that follow were partly (not only nor chiefly) prompted by two recent books. Though differing in many respects, both books tend to give an unfavorable impression of the religious life. La Nuit est ma Lu-mitre, by Dr. Etienne de Greeff, is a novel by a Catholic doctor-psychiatrist, who is a professor at Louvain University. Instructive in many respects, it tells some unpleasant truths about religious, but fails to do full justice to the Catholic con-cept of the religious life. It portrays "those terrible vows" as a source of medi-ocrity more often than not and maintains that only exceptionally gifted souls would find in" them the starting point and permanent inspiration for more than human greatness. The second book, I Leap ot~er the Wall, by Monica Baldwin, is more literary but less instructive. The well-known bestseller tells the autobio-graphical story of an ex-nun who left a cloistered convent in England in 1941 after twenty-eight years of religious life and struggles with the problem of re-adapting herself to a world where she feels altogether lost. The Rip van Winkle experience of ie-awakening to the world, and to a world at war, after twenty-eight years "sleep" is rather overdone. The author's references to her past religious life fluctuate between two tones: one of slightly ironical depreciation of the antiquated standstill in which the rules and customs, inherited from the Middle Ages, freeze the nuns: another of a sincere endeavor to give "worldly" people an idea of what religious life really is and of how it is possible to live and be happy in it.~The following reflections are written by one who stayed for twenty-eight years and hopes to stay for many ~EW religious live for long in any order or congregation without seeing some of their fellow religious leave. This happens espe-cially during the years of probation, before first or final vows. It is only natural and normal. Religious in training who find out 84 March, 19~ 1 WHY DO THEY LEAVE "they had no vocation" go back to the world. It also happens, con-siderably more rarely, after the last profession. We may not like to think of these facts, but we cannot help knowing them. Perhaps it is good~ just for once, to face them squarely. Why do these religious leave? We who stay are perhaps compelled to answer this question for ourselves. We may and do sincerely endeavor to give a charitable and supernatural answer. Yet, is it not true that these departures always leave some feeling of uneasiness, at times only slight, at other times, when the persons concerned are closer to us, more painful and persisting? We do not mean to say that every one of them shakes our vocation. The grace of our vocation, thanks be to God, does not stand or fall with what happens around us. But the events we are speaking of do not generally leave Us altogether unaffected. They at least provoke reflection and prayer. They Had No Vocation? Why do they leave? The answer to our que,stion is complex, for natural and supernatural reasons fuse. We must endeavor to put them down as simply and sincerely as we can. The truth, here as elsewhere, will be liberating. Why do they leave? Because, we like to think., they find out they had no vocation. Often, very often perhaps, that may be true. A religious vocation" is a grace, and because grace builds on nature and perfects it, the grace of a religious vocation supposes a certain natural foundation. Without this, nor-mally speaking, it can har'dly be genuine. To have or not to have a vocation means that God calls or does not call one to the religious state. But how do we generally come to know the grace God offers? The signs of a true vocation are normally these three: (1) natural and supernatural aptitude to live the religious life; (2) a right intention, mainly or chiefly (perhaps not exclusively), inspired by supernatural motives: and (3) the desire or will to answer the divine call. "Candidates have the natural aptitude when they are physically, mentally, and morally fit, that is, when they have suffi-cient heal~h, gifts of mind and education, and sufficient strength of character and freedom from habits and inclinations that are not com-patible with a life according to the vows and rules and are not likely to be corrected by the regular training. When at the same time they have a sufficient spirit of piety, self-abnegation, and apostolic aspira-tions, born from and nourished by regular prayer' and the reception of the sacraments, then their aptitude is also supernatural. Let such 85 ANONYMOUS Reoieua for Religious apt candidates intend to join a religious institute, not only nor mainly to find an honorable state of life, but chiefly to work out the salvation of their own souls and to do much good, whether to pray and study, or help the sick, or teach and educate the children, or to go to the missions; or more definitely because they believe, after reflection and prayer and taking advice, that such is God's will for them. Then they have also the right intention. It is then enough for them to conceive the desire to enter the religious state in one of its institutes, according to the guidance of Providenci expressed in the concrete circumstances in which they live: school, home educa-tion, contacts, examples, advice from parents or teachers. Their religious vocation then materializes into actual fact. Those who so join have the vocation. It is officially sanctioned, in the name of the Church and of Christ, when the institute accepts their profession. How then does it happen that some religious, after years of actual experience of the religious life, come to believe and to find out that they had no vocation? Normally that is found out before long. When any of the three mentioned factors of a vocation is lacking in a notable degree so as to arouse serious doubts about the genuineness of the vocation,, the religious in probation or their superiors will generally come to know this in the course of the years of training. That such a previous mistake was possible need not cause any sur-prise. What was an apparent vocation may turn out a failure and ¯ prove a'sbam vocation. True self-knowledge is rare especially in the young who have little experience of life and of men. They may have deceived themselves or have been deceived in good faith about their aptness 'for a kind of life of which they bad but little or only second-hand knowledge. Even spiritual directors may have been misled into believing in a vocation that later proves not to have been genuine. When this discovery takes place during the years of pro-bation, it is not abnormal, for such religious to return to secular llfe. But after years of professed life this discovery can only be excep-tional. If it were not so, it would mean that no one could have a sufficient human guarantee of a religious vocation, in spite of the official sanction of the Church contained in the very acceptance by the institute of the perpetual vows. This would go against the whble Catholic idea of a vocation. It would come to mean that, counter to the very belief of the Church, the approved religious institutes are hardly a safe way to Christian perfection. And so it can only be due to abnormal, personal or extrinsic, circumstances that religious failed 86 March, 1951 ¯ WHY DO THEY LEAVE to test sufficiently, during the years of probation, the genuineness of their vocation. They Lost Their Vocation Apart from such rare and exceptional cases', the reason why pro-fessed religious leave will more often be different. It will rather be because theg lost their vocation. Yes, that is possible. What do we mean by saying so? Nothing else but.that the three signs of a religious vocation mentioned above no longer exist. They may have existed in a remarkable degree. At the time they constituted a guar-antee of perseverance in a genuine vocation. But then a moment came, generally not before more or less conscious and guilty neglect of rather important duties, when a gradual decline of.the physical, mental, and moral fitness made the fidelity to the duties of the reli-gious state harder and harder. Till one day these religious find themselves nearly without desire for their state of life and tired of the many duties and occupations that have become almost mean-ingless to them. When natural and supernatu.ral aptness for the religious life have dwindled close to unfitness, it is hard for men to maintain a right intention in the state of life t6 which they were secretly unfaithful. It is then only one step 'for them to give up the desire of an ideal that is no longer their own. And another step to translate into action a listlessness that is but the reverse.side of a hidden new longing which has taken root in their hearts and driven out the former intention. Such religious leave bechuse they lost their vocation. Does this happen without any fault of their own? In some blatant and rare cases the loss of a vocation certainly involves grievous faults. That is beyond doubt when serious and repeated breaches of the vows, to the scandal of outsiders as well, lead to the 'dismissal. These breaches may be entanglements in money matters, or consist in infidelity to the second vow, or in more or less open revolt against obedience. But it probably may also happen without definitely grievous faults. Regular and protracfed unfaithfulness in relatively small ma~ters of religious observance may gradually lead to a kind of tiredness of the religious state which .becomes an ever growing unfitness. Only if this infidelity be persistent over a long period of time does it thus lead ~o disaster. God's grace is faithful and powerful and may easily prevent the worst. But when grace is resisted habitually and persistently, that infidelity may well strike the death blow to a religious vocation. 87 ANONYMOUS Revieu; for Religious When a vocation is lost before the final profession, there is more likelihood that it could and did happen without grave sin. The idea of temporary vocations which some theologians of the spiritual life are inclined to accept would favor the possibility of such cases. God may in His Providence prepare some people for the role He wishes them to play in the world by granting them the grace of a few years of religious training. There are many cases of men and women who tried the religious life and were led to give it up, but remained forever grateful to God for the years they spent in the cloister. But after the last profession when religious have bound themselves for ever, and when the Church, in Christ's own name, has accepted their self-oblation, the idea of a temporary vocation is well nigh excluded. Not absolutely, it is true, because it is possible, though not probable, that Providence prepares one for a plan of His own by a long religious training. His ways are not ours. Every-human rule is open to exception. In Terms o~: Human Psycboloqq The loss of a religious vocation translates in terms of spiritual theology what on the level of human psychology we hear expressed more bluntly by various reasons such as: they are not happy; theg have enough of it; the[l can no longer. Have we not heard some-thing like that after a fellow religious left? They were not happy in the religious life which did not suit them any longer. They felt themselves like square pegs in round holes, out of place, out of tune with their surroundings, their occupations, their duties. How could they be happy in a state which, they dislike and for which they are unfit? That feeling of unhappiness was not just a passing im-pression or temptation. It had grown into a habitual painful state, an obsession with the idea of out-of-place-ness which left them no rest nor peace. Who will wonder if they came to acknowledge to themselves that "they have had enough of it"? It is possible for men to endure passing interior trials valiantly. Both natural courage and the strength that comes from God's grace enable them to stand the purifying test of interior tedium and moral fatigue. That trial allows hope; sooner or later it passes and leaves deeper and firmer happiness. But when there seems to be no end to the feeling of unhappiness, when natural courage fails, even health at times partly failing as well, and when, because of unfaithfulness to God, grace does not come to give strength to those who refuse it, small wonder that they grow tired, over,tired, of an effort which 88 March, 1951 ~rHY DO THEY LEAVE? seems vain and meaningless, too tired to sustain it any longer. "They can no longer." When these religious con. less to themselves that something has snapped in their spiritual resilience, irretrievably, they are but a hair's breadth from "letting things go." That psychological downfall did not, of course, (ome all of a sudden. Its gradual preparation was slow, spread over many months or years. For quite a time they may hav~ been walking, or staying, just on the edge of the precipice. Had they been faithful to God in p?ayer so as to hear and accept the ¯ warning and the help of His never-failing grace, they would have had the light and the courage to withdraw from that state of danger. But unfaithfulness to regular duty cut them off from that source of strength. Left to themselves in their pitiful condition of weariness and loneliness they came to tell themselves that it really was too much, they could no longer. They dare to make this self-avowal because meanwhile another light dawned in their unhappy minds. They need not be religious to save their souls and serve God. In the world as well they can be good Christians, do their duties, and gain. their heaven. Rather than drag on an impossible life in the cloister, be happy and serve God in the world! Have they not been told: "Better be a good Christian in the world than a bad religious'"? They begin to see they must and will have the courage to face the situation and to change. Rather than cowardly hide to themselves and to others the real state of things and insincerely carry on a hypocritical staging of a religious life, they will have the courage to leave. And so they decided to leave. Disappointment Why then did they leave? If we read through the phrases they tell themselves and others to justify the step they take, their reasons will probably come down, in spite of surface differences, to one and the same: they felt disappointed with the religious life. The real, perhaps ~lmost unique, reason why some religious leave is, in the last instance, their disappointment with the religious life. They dreamed of an ideal life of service of God and of the neighbor: prayer, devotion, self-sacrifice, apostolate. They found a prosaic reality far remote, on the face of it, from the ideal of their dreams. Ordinary duties, long and at times dry prayers, painful and harassing community life, uninteresting and difficult fellow religious to live with, ungrateful and often monotonous work with little interested 89 ANONYMOUS Re~ieu~ for Religious and uninteresting people, and their best efforts and merits often, apparently, unappreciated and unrecognized. Yes, there is a difference between the ideal of the religious life, such as it is seen through the eyes of enthusiastic candidates, and the reality of the ordinary daily duties in the cloister. To young ideal-ists the religious observance looks attractive. When, in the actual practice of that life, religious stop at the surface only, the partly romantic interest soon wears off. Unless they penetrate deeper into the h~dden meaning of it all and discover in a genuine interior life nourished with prayer and silent sacrifice the hidden Treasure for whose sake they sold all their belongings, religious miss the point of their vocation. It was understood, of course, in their youthful dreams too, that a religious vocation implled many a sacrifice. But these very sacrifices wer~ made to look so attractive and interesting that they became just one more thing, somewhat unpleasant yes, which they were to carry off in their magnanimous stride towards the ideal. But in the reality of the life in the cloister once the novelty of the exterior duties has worn off and with it much of their natural charm and interest, what remains standing out above the rest is pre-cisely the painful side of uninteresting, unappreciated, ever recurring little (and at times bigger) sacrifices which these duties mean to self-love, self-esteem, self-satisfactlon. Unless then a deeper and more powerful attractiveness of the service of God and of men has replaced the former superficial charm, and has transformed the unpoetical reality of daily duties and sacrifices into the mysterious communion of divine love, human hearts are apt, if not bound, to feel disap-pointed. It is perhaps the common experience of religious that the reality of their vocation is very different from what they expected it to be. But it can be different in two ways. It is either much more beauti-ful and more worth-while than they ever dare to dream it; though this beauty is generally different than their half-worldly' minds once upon a time liked to fancy it. Or it is much less interesting and much more painful than they formerly imagined. Much better or much worse! Much better, if faithful to the grace of their vocation they succeed in unearthing the hidden greatness and happiness of a life of union with God, an anticipation of what He prepares for them in a measure surpassing all human understanding. Much worse, if unfaithful to the call of daily graces, they do not enter into the deep meaning of their vocation and stop less than half-way on their 90 March, 19 51 WHY DO THEY LEAVE ? march to the ideal. All they .find is the soon uninteresting, painful, boring, and finally unbearable burden of many meaningless duties. Can they feel otherwise than disappointed? Unseen--Unreal? If some religious lose their vocation, lose their fitness for its real life and grow disappointed, it is because they leave out of their lives the very substance of that vocation: the supernatural interior life of grace and of self-sacrifice which is the love of God. The religious life, limited to its superficial aspect only, is unable to satisfy the deepest aspirations of human hearts. For those for whom the unseen reality of the religious vocation is close to unreal, it is hardly possible not to feel deeply disappointed and soon to grow disaffected towards the religious life. Sometimes the disappointed religious unwittingly deceive "them-selves into believing that their disappointment does not lie with the ideal religious life such as it should be, but with the reality they found instead of it. Neither superiors nor fellow religious are found to be as they should. If only the institute were what its constitu-tions and laws claim it to be, they would not have been disappointed. There may be some good faith in this frame of mind. But it lacks realistic sense. Where is the human institution without short-comings? Are not these very deficiencies the matter out of which religious humility and perfection are built up? Had these religious not lacked the interior spirit, they Would have been able to see the great reality hidden under at times defective appearances. They would not have been blind to the great good that, next to the defects, is visible to every eye. That hidden reality does not disappoint. The feeling of disappointment and disaffection need not always be acute. Even when it is only partial but goes together, in rather shallow souls, with the need for a change that has been called the characteristic unsteadfastness of our war and post-war times, it may lead to the same result, the loss of the vocation. This need of a change works all the more effectively when after a considerable num-ber of years in the religious life a certain detachment from human ties has naturally followed on the actual separation from relatives and friends. If meanwhile no new higher attachment has taken the place of the old ones, as is the case in the disappointed and disaffected religious, then some sort of feeling of "being in the air" easily makes the balance of hesitation topple over. Perhaps it is the working 91 ANONYMOUS Reoieta ~:or Religious together of these different psychological factors that is actually the more frequent reason why some religious !leave. Why Do We.Sta~? They leave. We, with God's grace! stay. Perhaps we must conclude the above reflections by briefly answering another question that may have been sleeping at the back 6f our minds from the first and is by now wide awake: Why do u~e stay? We stay, because we believe in the grac! of our vocation. He who chose us knew whom He was choosing and He is faithful. We stay, because, with the help of that grace, we sincerely endeavor to make and to keep ourselves ever more fit, naturally and supernaturally, for the life and the duties to which He called us. We stay, because day by day, with the help of His grace, we work and pray and sacrifice to preserve our vocation. For in spite of passing weakness and for-getfulness, of neglect and of failing, of humbling faults, we know that He reads our hearts and sees the sin.cerity of our desires, even when they are hidden under negligence an'd human frailty. We stay, because we are happy in His service. With the help of His grace He led us to discover something of the hidden Treasure that is His love, His very Self. He helped us see and experience, at times clearly, at times in a hidden manner, through the veil of faith, the great joy and happiness of sacrifice out of love. He helped us discover Him, our Love, on the cross. He let us experience the puri-fying and deepening effects of trial and suffering which He sends in many different ways, but always as the cross-shaped sign of His love. Our love grows greater and stronger and deeper when te.mpered in the crucible of sacrifice. Even the natural joys and the natural hap-piness of the religious life--for there are these as well--are purer and nobler and more thoroughly satisfying when our hearts have shared in Christ's sorrows. Because of this great and unshakable happiness, we shall never, with the assistance of His grace, have enough of it. For unlike merely human happiness and greatness, which always bears the risk of saturation and fatigue, the spiritual joys of the Lord, experience has shown us, sharpen our hunger the more we happen to taste' of them. Even for our share in His sacrifice we shall never say: "It is enough, or too much." His grace helped us experience that the greater our actual share in His cross, the keener our hunger and thirst after justice. With the help of His grace we shall always be able to accept the small and large crosses He chooses for each one of 92 March, 1951 BOOK REVII~W$ us. Never shall we say, "We can no longer" because we know that He never asks for any sacrifice without also giving strength and happiness. We stay, because we are not disappointed with the religious life and we know that, with the help of His grace, we sha.ll never be. The Lord does not disappoint! The human realities of the religious life do and will, no doubt, remain human, that is, imperfect in many ways. We know that only too well, from ourselves to begin with, and much more from ourselves than from our fellow religious around us. But we also know that these very imperfections are not disap-pointing because we see them and at all times wish to see them in the light of His love that transforms them into the precious material out of which He builds true, unseen greatness. We are not disappointed because we love our vocation, such as it is, with the persons and the places° and the duties and the circumstances which His loving Provi-dence chose and chooses 'for ds. In the light and warmth of His love, radiating from His and our cross, we know that "it is good for us to be here." That is why we stay. With the heIp of His grace we shall stay on, and work and pray and sacrifice, till we hear another call of His; when He will invite Hi~ faithful servants into His own home. Meanwhile, in our prayers and sacrifices we shall pray that His mercy accompany the unfortunate ones who left and the more privileged ones who stay.--Quid retribuam? What shall I render in return? Book Reviews CATHOLIC SOCIAL PRINCIPLES. By John F. Cronln, S.S. Pp. xxvlll -~- 803. The Bruce Publishing Company, Milwaukee, 1950. $6.00. Appendix~II of this book contains a 37-page annotated reading list. The length of the list is significant. It explains why many of us have experienced an increasing hollow feeling as we looked forward through the years to the day when we might.become well-informed about the social teaching of the Church. Through these same years .we have seen books and articles on the social question follow one another with such rapid succession that we wondered whether we should ever be able even to skim the surface of this literature. Realizing the Church's desire that we know her social teaching, and 93 BOOK REVIEWS yearning to fulfill this desire, yet we had to ask ourselves with a cer-tain helplessness, "What can one do to learn even the essentials?' One thing to do is to read this book. It will counteract the hol-low feeling with at least the wholesome food of accurate general in-formation on "The Social Teaching of the Catholic Church Applied to American Economic Life" (the subtitle). , So many and such comprehensive reviews of Catholic Social Prin-ciples have already appeared that it is unnecessary for me to give a detailed picture of it. The book is divided into three parts that move logically from the general to the particular. Part I gives general principles of Catholic social teaching: explaining the foundation, rejecting unsound theories, and culminhting in an exposition of the ideal social order. Part II considers concrete aspects of the social probiem (capital, labor, wages, unions, property, functions of Church and State) in the light of generai p~inciples. Each chapter of these first two parts begins with a compilation of pertinent au-thoritative statements, espec'ially those made by Po~es and hierar-chies. Part III surveys various attempts by American Catholics to formulate a salutary social program. There are three appendices, as well as an Index of Authorities and a General Index. The method of treatment is both expository and critical. The tone is moderate. "Extremes beget extremes," writes Father Cronin, "whereas modera-tion wins adherents." He should win many adherents. Experts in various phases of Catholic teachin[l might suggest improvements in Father Cronin's book when he touches on their respective fields, but they could hardly question its general excellence. I am content to recommend it without any reservation to religious superiors, teachers, and those engaged in the social apostolate. In fact, I would recommend it to everyone, but I thinkthose I have men-tioned would profit especially by reading it. And I should like to confirm this general recommendation with a number of quotations, but I have only sufficient space to refer to the question of our dealings. with workers. On this subject, which is certainly of great interest to all of us, Father Cronin writes (p. 360): "Problems connected with a living wage and the dignity of labor should be a special concern of priests and religious who are in the position of employers. In the past, our record in this regard has not always been good. Church institutions have at times been no-torious both for low wages and arbitrary practices, such as the dis-charge of workers who have given most of their lives to an institu- 94 March, 1951 BOOK REVIEW8 tion, and who are let out either because of old age or a change of administration. Cynics have remarked that some in our midst apply vows of poverty to workers, even though Canon Law makes no pro-vision for vicarious acceptance of religious vows. Undoubtedly, such situations occur with the best of motives. Church institutions rarely have adequate funds, so that their administrators understand-ably try to economize in the attempt to have the most money for the primary purpose of the venture. This would be especially true for schools, institutions of' charity, and even some parishes. Yet charity should not be served at the expense of justice. We should give good example in regard to the social teaching of the Church as well as in matters of piety. "Many bishops now require that wages and working conditions be considered in letting construction contracts. It would be most desirable that when bids are let, the award go, not to the lowest bidder absolutely, but to the lowest bid from a reputable firm which pays decent wages and treats it workers fairly. Likewise, the Church as employer cannot afford to lag behind in other phases of industrial relations, such as proper hours, working conditions, grievance ma-chinery, seniority provisions, protection from arbitrary discharge, se-curity for old age, and such normal features of reasonable employ-ment. These are usually matters of justice, not works of superero-gation. We should be more reluctant than lay employers to seek excuse from such obligations on the grounds that we cannot afford to meet them."--G. KELLY, S:'J. THE NUN AT HER PRIE-DIEU. By Roberf Nash, S.J. Pp. 298. The New-m~ n Press, Wes÷mlnster, Md., 1950. $3.00. This meditation book for Sisters contains an introductory chap-ter and forty-six meditations. The meditations are constructed along the lines of preludes and points; but the two preludes are called "Setting" and "Fruit," and the points are simply called "parts." Each meditation has three parts; and each begins with a preparatory piayer and ends with a summary of the points and a tersely-stated (sometimes only half-stated) thought called a "tessera.'" There is no colloquy; the nun is left perfectly free to formulate her own Oh's and Ah's at the conclusion of the meditation. The meditations contain too much matter for a single hour of prayer. The author recommends making them in parts, then re-peating; hence the book should furnish food for prayer for approxi- 95 BOOK REVIEWS Reoiew for Religious mately a year. The content is solid; the subjects are diversified; the treatment is sufficiently bright to ward off sleep during the time of preparing points. The book seems particularly apt for those who fol-low the method of "reflective reading" in making their meditation. And for those who prefer other met.boris of prayer to formal medita-tion it should be an excellent spiritual reading book. --G. KELLY, S.d. RECRUITING FOR CHRIST. By Godfrey Poacje, C.P. Pp. viii ~- 193. The Bruce Pu'bllshin9 Company, Milwaukee, 1950. $3.00. I opened this book with genuine enthusiasm. I had heard of Father Poage's splendid work in the promotion of religious and priestly vocations and I had seen his excellent booklets, Follow Me and Follow Him; and I expected something superb. But I closed the book with a feeling of disappointment. There is much wheat; but there is not a little chaff that should have been carefully removed before the book was published. The Introduction describes the tremendous need for more priests, Brothers, and Sisters,. and insists that there are vast numbers of latent vocations to meet this need, but these vocations must be fostered. The author concludes the Introduction by saying that it is already too long. I should say that it is too short. It is the best part of the book, and never once in the succeeding chapters does Father Poage rise to the same height. Subsequent chapters discuss the meaning of vocation to the priesthood and the religious life, the signs of such vocations, and ways of finding them among both boys and girls. There follow chapters offering suggestions to priests, teachers, and religious supe-riors for the successful promoting of vocations. There is an appendix on vocational clubs, an 1 1-page annotated bibliography of vocational literature, and an index. The book is replete with illustrative sto-ries taken from the experience of the author and of other successful promoters of religious and priestly vocations; and its main value consists in the lessons that can be learned from these actual experi-ences, The suggestions for teachers and priests should be very helpful; but I think that much of the chapter entitled "Suggestions for Supe-riors" will hurt or embarrass superiors, especially women. For example, there is the section dealing with the apparel that girls are 96 March, 1951 BOOK REVIEWS told to bring to the postulancy. It was with "bashful, bachelor eyes" that Father Poage (who seemingly had obtained the lists by pretending to be a girl aspirant) scanned these lists; and it is unfor-tunate that bashfulness did not guide his written comments. Concluding the paragraph about ill health as a barrier to a reli-gious vocation, Father Poage states summarily, "Invalids are not wanted." Besides sounding too harsh, this statement seems to need qualification. One purpose for which St. Francis de Sales founded the Visitation Order was to give certain types of invalids an oppor-tunity of serving God in the cloister. I do not have the exact words of the constitutions at hand, but the Catholic Encyclopedia says: "He exl~ressly ordered the reception at the Visitation not only of virgins but also of widows, on condition that they were legitimately freed from the care of their children; the aged, provided they were of right mind; the crippled, provided they were sound in mind and heart; even the sick, except. those who had contagious diseases." This is not the least of the charities for which the Catholic world blesses Francis de Sales. And I,,believe there are other institutes that are willing to waive certain physical disabilities in otherwise acceptable candidates. Regarding illegitimacy, Father Poage writes: "An invalid union makes the child illegitimate. This is an impediment to the priest-hood and religious communities." This is partly an oversimplifica-tion of the canon law on illegitimacy and partly incorrect. A child is legitimate when conceived of either a valid or a putative marriage. Moreover, if one who was born illegitimate makes solemn religious profession, he is by that fact legitimated, "and this would remove the irregularity for receiving Holy Orders without the need of a dispen-sation. As for entrance into religion, canon law does not make illegitimacy an impediment. I believe this should be specially noted, because many religious seem to have an erroneous notion in this mat-ter, When illegitimacy is an impediment to entrance into a certain institute, it is so by reason of the constitutions of that institute and not by reason of the. general law of the Church. And, even when an institute makes illegitimacy an impediment, superiors in the United States can generally obtain a dispensation from the local ordinary. It is understandable that a book which offers almost innumerable practical suggestions wouId offer some that would be open to dis-agreement. Father Poage calls attention to the fact that girls often enter the novitiate with the habit of smoking and he suggests that 97 BOOK REVIEWS Review for Religious superiors "obligingly set aside a smoking period for those who need it." Perhaps the phrase "for those who need it" places this sugges-tion beyofid controversy; yet I am inclined to think that those who need it would be rare indeed and that they might very obligingly do their "tapering off" before they enter the postulancy. Father Poage and I would practically reverse positions regarding ,association with the opposite sex before entering religion. He believes that aspirants to the priesthood or the religious life should cease associating with the 6pposite sex. And he apparently means not merely regular company-keeping with one individual but even dances and parties that include both boys and girls, for he tells one girl: "This does not mean you are to cut out" all fun and gaiety. Have a good time-~but with the girls and not the boys!" No doubt one could give good arguments to substantiate this view from documents of the Church and from the practice in some countries of having boys in apostolic schools and seminaries from their tender years. The Church encourages this, it is true. Nevertheless, normal social life at home or in a ~boarding academy or college is not the same as life in an apostolic school or seminary. And, at least generally speaking, it is part of the normal life of our high school and college boys and girls to attend parties and dances. A prospective vocation which could not hold out through such normal and wholesome associations would hardly be a true religious vocation, it seems to me. Obviously, I am not saying that there is nothing incompatible between planning to enter religion or a seminary and at the same time continuing an exclusive companionship with an individual of the opposite sex. Nor do I sponsor the advice that a boy or girl who has not heretofore associated with the opposite sex should "have a fling at it" before going to the novitiate or the seminary. But I see no need of discontinuing wholesome and general mixed-group rela-tionships merely because one is thinking of or planning on entering religion. Others may, and very likely do, think differently. The point is worth discussion. A final comment--a"fixed idea" of mine, if one will have it that. Throughout the book and even in his generic explanation of "voca-tion," Father Poage limits the term to a call to the religious life or the priesthood. In doing this he is conforming to a very widespread and popular notion of vocation. Yet I think that this restricted use of the term is both theologically inaccurate and psychologically harm-ful. Theologically, the term should embrace all states of life: and 98 March, 1951 BOOK REVIEWS psychologically it is immensely beneficial to use it as referring not only to the priesthood and the religious life but also to marriage and the single life in the world.--G. KELLY, S.J. PATROLOGY, I: THE BEGINNINGS OF PATRISTIC: LITERATURE. By Johannes Quasten. Pp. xvlii -I- 349. The Newman Press, Westminster, Md., 1950. $S.00. Up to the present, our patrologies have usually been works pub-lished in a foreign language and then translated into English. Now it is a pleasure to welcome a patrology published in English. It is also a pleasure to welcome a patrology which is the last word in sci-entific scholarship, interestingly written, and ~vhich always keeps, to the fore the needs of English-speaki.ng leaders. This first volume covers the beginnings of patristic literature. After an introductory chapter, the author takes up the Apostles' Creed and the Didache, then the Apostolic Fathers, Apocryphal Lit-erature, Christian Poetry, the Acts of the Martyrs, the Greek Apolo-gists, Heretical Literature, 'and Anti-Heretical Literature. The opening chapter is an admirable introduction to patrology and an up-to-the-minute and scholarly guide to research in this field. Besides dealing with the concept and history of patrology, the con-cept of a Church Father, and the language ' of the Fathers, it gives bibliography on the various branches of Ancient Christian Literature and on the doctrine of the Fathers, and lists editions and translations of Patristic texts. Then in each succeeding chapter an outline is given of the respective authors; each individual work'is studied and analyzed; to this is added information dealing, with the text, trans-lations, and studies of the documents; finally the outstanding fea-tures of the theological thought of the documents are discussed. Certain aspects of the work call for special consideration. An outstanding feature is its thoroughness. There is no document, in this early period or no problem concerning these documents for which one has not now a competent guide. A feature that is most welcome is the generous coverage of the theological thought of the authors. Thus--to illustrate--the thought of Irenaeus is presented on the Trinity, Christology, Mariology, Ecclesiology, the Primacy of Rome, the Eucharist, Scripture, Anthropology, Soteriology, and Eschatology. Finally, a new feature (which has long been desired) is seen in the copious excerpts from these ancient writings. The author is not content with telling what a certain writer thought, but 99 Book REviEws Review for Religious he lets him tell us in his own words. This isa feature that partly explains the interest and readability of this volume; it is this that makes the book not merely something which we use to consult, but something which we want to read for the joy found in reading it. It is easy to see how a book of this kind can be of great help to religibus. Those engaged in teaching patrology, dogma, or liturgy have a work that will aid them in research and in preparing their classes. No longer need we despair of having a patrology text that will interest students; no longer need the patrology manual be regarded as something as dry as dust. The religious engaged in teaching college have here a book that will have to be found on their reference shelf, a book "that will be very helpful in answering ques-tions about the Ancient Church. Finally, all religious will find here background for a better understanding of works which all through the ages have been spiritual classics; e.g., the Eetters of St. Ignatius of Antioch, the Acts of the Martyrs.--ALFRED C. RUSH, C.SS.R. RELIGIOUS SISTERS. An English translation of Direcfolre des Sup.erl. eures and Les Adaptations de La Vie Religieuse. Compiled by A. .Pie, O.P. Pp. xli -~- 313. The Newman Press, Westminster, Maryland. $3.s0. Superiors, spiritual directors, and retreat masters who have good eyes will welcome this helpful, inspiring work. The book grew out of two symposia to help the religious women of France meet prob-lems created by modern conditions. The papers prepared by diocesan and religious priests werd first printed in La Vie Spirituelle. In the English edition the French article on psychology was replaced by the article by R. E. Havard, an English doctor. The book has five sec-tions: the theology of religious life, the office of the superior, the knowledge required by a Superior, the vocation and training of reli-gious and adaptations in modern religious life. When ~sked what she thought of the book, a religious superior who had read it answered that she had bought three more copies, in-cluding one for her Mother Provincial. She also said: "I found Religious Sisters most helpful, excellent. It is clear, complete, yet concise, and the high spirituality makes it a real inspiration. If I do not do a better job as superior now, I will not have the excuse I had before reading it. I cannot say any of the ideas were entirely new, but the detailed application of the principles and elements of reli-gious life were, in a number of instances, so new that I do not feel I 100 BOOK NOTICE$ have absorbed them in one reading." More readable print is certainly desirable and also a book of the same calibre that grew from American conditions, but in lieu of both, the book is recommended. The benefits derived will compensate for the temporary snow-blindness that results from reading the soft, light print.--J. BREUNIG, S.J. ,~OOK NOTICES OUR CHRISTIAN DIGNITY, by L. Semp~, S.J., adapted from the French by C, Vrithoff, S.J., is a little'work, comprising nine confer-ences in the form of dialogues between a priest and two young men, which could serve as a'highly informative and inspiring introduction to the grandeurs of the supernatural life. In a way that is both popu-lar and theological it presents the principal aspects of the Christian's deification by grace, and at the same time make,~ them so many most potent motives for actu,.ally living up to the sublime dignity that it confers. Thus it would provide spiritual reading of the best kind: full of dogma for the mind and of consequent force and enthusiasm for the. will. (Catholic Press, Ranchi, India, i945. Pp. 98. Rs. i.) THE TWELVE FRUITS, by C. J. Woollen, is no mere theoretical explanation of the fruits of the Holy Ghost, but a concre.te, practical exposition of the effects which these fruits should produce in every Catholic. As a 'result, the book makes interesting and profitable spiritual reading. In dealing with the fruits a writer is faced with a real problem to distinguish patience from longanimitg and mildness or to show how continencg differs from ebastitg, but the author suc-seeds in making plausible distinctions between them. More. emphasis is placed on the fruits as effects to be produced by their possessor than on the benefits which accrue to him .from their, possession, though this second aspect is not entirely neglected. The chapter on patience is particularly well done. (New York: Joseph F. Wagner, Inc., 1950. Pp. viii ÷ 184. $2.50.) GUIDE IN MENTAL PRAYER, written 'by the Very Reverend Jo-seph Simler, fourth superior general of the Society of Mary (Marian-ists), was intended originally for use within that congregation. But others also came to know about it and to find it helpful, and now in this revised English edition it is mad~ available to all. No one 'book on mental prayer is ideal for all the very different mentalities of 101 BOOK ANNOUNCEMENTS men and women who cultivate that difficult art, but this one, simple, practical, and definite, should, it seems, prove very useful to many. It promises success to all who really have good will. A point that it emphasizes particularly is the importance of faith for growing in the ability to meditate. (A Grail Publication, St. Meinrad, Indiana, 1949. Pp. 167. $2.00.) In J~_SUIT BEGINNINGS IN NEW MEXICO Sister M. Lilliana Owens, in collaboration with two Jesuits, presents the first of a series entitled "Jesuit Studies--Southwest." The book is an ungarnished historical account. A hitherto unpublished diary of the mission of New, Mexico comprises half of the book. [El Paso, Texas: Revista Catolica Press, 1950. Pp. 176. $2:00 (cloth); $1.50 (paper).] A very valuable addition to .the literature on vocation is VOCA-TION TO THE PRIESTHOOD: ITS CANONICAL ~CONCEPT, A Histori-cal Synopsis and a Commentary, by .Aidan Carr, O.F.M.Conv. Dr. Cart investigates his problem from the po!.nts of view of history, theology, and canon law. His conclusions se~m to clarify and syn-thesize what was best in the pri.ncipal p.revio;is works on the subject. Directly or indirectly this study should be a precious aid to the many men and women who teach boys and thus have something to do with fostering and discerning divine calls to the holy priesthood. (Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1950. Pp. viii + 124. $2.00.) , BOOK ANNOUNCEMENTS [For the most part, these notices ate purely descriptive, based on a cursory exam-ination of the books listed.] BOOKMAN ASSOCIATES, New York. Like Clean Winds. By Sister Louise Agnes Morin, C.S.J. An-other convincing contrast to I Leap o~;er the Wall. "The story of a Sister who entered the convent to give herself to God and was not surprised to find what she sought--a life of renunciation." The book is illustrated by Michael Lyn Genung. Pp. 63. $2.25. Savonarola. A verse play in nine scenes by Wallace A. Bacon. This play won the Bishop Sheil Drama Award of the. National Catholic Theater Conference in 1946. Pp. 128. $2.50. CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY PRESS, Washington, D. C. Orestes Brotonson's Approach to the Problem of God. A critical 102 March, 1951 BOOK ANNOUNCHMHNT$ examination in the Light of the Principles of St. Thomas Aquinas. By the Reverend Bertin Farrell, C.P. A dissertation. Pp. xiii ÷ 140. $1.75. THE GRAIL, St. Meinrad, Indiana. The Familg Rosarg for Children. By Urban Paul Martin. A Sister of Charity has significantly illustrated the purpose, history, and method of praying the Rosary, as well as each of the fifteen mysteries. This booklet will help boys and girls understand and pray the Rosary. Pp. 71. $1.00. Watchu~ords of the Saints. A Thought for Each Day of the Year from the Writings 6f the Saints. Collected by Christopher O'Brien. Pp. 73. $1.50. Our .Ladg's Slave. ;The Story. of Saint Louis Mary Grignion De Montfort. By Mary ~abyan Windeatt. Illustrafed by Paul A. Grout. Pp. 201. $2.~. B. HERDER BOOK COMPaNY,'St. Louis, Mo. Art and Beauty. By Maurice De Wulf. Translated by Sister Mary Gonzaga Udell, O.P. In this volume a philosopher of re-nown considers the basic principles of art. Pp. ix q- 213. $3.00. THE NEWMAN PRESS, Westminster, Maryland. Catechism o~: the "'Summa. Theotogica'" o~: Saint Thomas Aqui-nas. By R. P. Thomas Pegu~s, O.P. Adapted from the French and done into English by Aelred'~q'hitacre, O.P. A condensation of the Summa in catechism form. A reprint of the work first published in England in 1922. Pp. xvi + 315. $2.75.' Shepherd oF Untended Sheep. By Raoul Plus, S.J. Tia.nslated from the French by Sister James Aloysius. and Sister Mary Generosa, Sisters of Divine Providence. This is the first biography in English of a Vincent de Paul of the eighteenth century, John Martin: Moye, priest of the Society of the Foreign Missions of Paris, missionary to China, and founder of the Sisters of Divine Providence. Pp. xv 180. $2.50. ST. FRANCIS BOOK SHOP, Cincinnati 10, Ohio. Walk with the Wise. By Hyacinth Blocker, o.F.M. This book presents forty-eight storles from the live's of the saints in very pal-atable capsule form. The treatment is marked by originality, fresh-ness, and a relevance to the present day that cannot b~ missed. Pp. x + 240. $2.75. 103 COMMUNICATIONS Reuieto for Religious THE SENTINEL PRESS, 194 E. 76th St., New York. People and the Blessed Sacrament. By Martin Dempsey. Our Lord never wanted the devotion to the Blessed Sacrament to stop in the vestibule. Father Dempsey shows how the Eucharist can influ-ence the entire lives of all: the bootblack, the doctor, the housewife, the college student and so forth. Should be good material for Forty Hours talks. Pp. 95. $1.50 [cloth] : 50 cents [paper]. JOSEPH F. WAGNER, INC., New York. Make Way for Mary. By the Rev. Ja'mes J. McNally. With a foreword by the Most Rev. Christopher J. 'WeldOn, D.D. A series of talks deriving from the Gospels of the Sundays of the year and showing the place of Mary in the Catholic's life. Pp. 272. $2.75. Commun{cal:{ons Reverend Fathers: In reply to,y.o.ur note concerning information on the question of vocations from Catholic Colleges which appeared in the November issue Of R]EVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS, the following is presented. The statistics are given under the headings suggested in the letter signed "A Teaching Sister" and represent, as requested, the last ten years. ~,, Education Contemplative Social WorE 1941 ~, 4 0 0 1942 6 0 I 1943 5 0 0 1944 , .6 I 0 1945 IO 0 0 1946 13 0 0 1947 9 0 3 1948 4 I I 1949 15 I I 1950 13 I I Total 85 4 7 Left II 4 0 74 0 7 Total to enter religious life 96 Number to leave IS Persevering 81 104 March, 1951 COMMUNICATIONS The facts have been listed for each year because we feel they are significant of changes made in 1940. During that summer, under the direction of our Very Reverend Mother Marie de St. ,lean Mar-tin, O.S.U., Prioress General of the Ursullnes of the Roman Union, a study of the Traditions of the Orderwas made in the light of con-temporary problems. (cf. Ursuline Method or: Education, Marie de Saint Jean Martin, O.S.U., Quinn ~3 Boden Company, Inc. 1946.) It might be well to sthte that these changes were not made all at once but gradually and not without difficulty-. Under the heading of, creating a Catbolic Atmosphere and assuming that we are striving to give a profound intellectual formation, they may be summarized thus: ~ 1. Religion Courses centered in Christ;'a course in Church His- . tory in junior year; a course in the spiritual life in senior year. 2. Liturgy: Missa Cantata and Compline sung daily by those who wish to participate; on Sundays and feast days Vespers and Compline. ~ ~3. Oppqrtunity for daily confession and spiritual direction. Daily meditations are made for those who wish to learn how to meditate; these are followed by special written 'ones and gradually, with help, many students make a daily meditation. 5. Guidance: each student is given or chooses if they wish a spiritual mother. 6. Sodality: limited to those who desire to lime an interior life and to participate in the apostolate. 7. Specialized Catholic Action.: Young Christian S~udents. It is to be noted that the statistics reveal .an increase .in religious vocations with the classes which were the first to graduate under the new policy.--MOTHER MARIE THERESE CHARLES, O.S.U. Reverend Fathers: In response to your invitation to correspondenc.e regarding the article on "The Deafened Religious" in the oNovember issue, I should like to share some good news. There is fenestration surgery now to cure the type of deafness known as otosclerosis. Any otologist can diagnose this mose prevalent kind of deafness. Nearly every large city has a surgeon trained by Doctor Julius Lempert of New York, who perfected the operation some twelve years ago. It consists in making a new window in the inner ear bone to connect with the auditory nerve. Although a most delicate operation requiring some 105 QUESTIONS AND/~NSWERS ' Ret~ie~ for Religious time to recover, it is worth all the misery of accompanying sea sick-ness, due to drilling through the equilibrium center. I was losing my hearing for twenty-three years and wore-a hearing aid for twelve years. Doctor Howard P. House, 1136 West Sixth Street, Los Angeles 14, California, performed such skillful surgery on both my ears in successive summers, that I now have normal hearing. I was able to discard the hearing aid after the first operation. Much of the success would normally be due to the condition of the nerve, hence it is important to have the surgery done as soon as otosclerosis is detected, before the. auditory, nerve begins to atrophy. I find that this operation is comp.aratively unknown, so I should like to broadcast the almost miraculous .results to your readers. I cannot be grateful enough to God, Doctor House and my community for my return to normal communication. It is a new life. --S~STER M. CATHERINE EmEEN. S.H.N. ( ues ions and Answers ~7~ May a local superior who had been appointed for one year to fill out the incomplet.ed term of his predecessor, and who was then reappolnfed local superior for. one three-year term, be now reappointed for another immediate term ~:F three years in.the same house? If not, may he be ap-pointed for an additional two years to make up a' fatal of six years? Canon 505 forbids the same religious to act as local superior of the same community for more than two terms of three years each. The emphasis in the text "term of three years" (triennfum) is not on the word term, but upon the entire phrase--term of three years. The Code does not forbid three terms of two years each, but excludes more than two terms of three years each in the same house, that is, more than six continuous years as local superior on the part of the same religious. In the case mentioned, therefore, the superior may be reappointed to a new term of two years, which will complete the six continuous years allowed him in the same house. 8 If a religious under temporary vows develops bad.health, or becomes a mentalcase, and, as a result, is refused perpetual vows, is the commun- 106 March, 1951 QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ity to which he belonged bound to take care of him after sending him away.'? What if his physical or mental condition was doubtful during the novitiate and he was allowed to make his tempo'rary profession as a trial to see how he would make out? Once a novice is allowed to make his profession of~first tempo-racy vows, poor health, whether physical or mental, is no longer a reason for refusing either a renewal of temporary vows or the pro-fession of perpetual vows, much less al reason for dismissal (see can-ons 637 and 647, § 2). Hence superiors may not allow a novice t

Transcript of an oral history interview with Angus Macaulay, conducted by Sarah Yahm on 5 May 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Angus Macaulay graduated from Norwich University in 1966. His interview focuses on his military service in Korea and Vietnam after graduation as well as his later career at McGraw-Hill, INC. Magazine, and Magazine Services, Inc. ; Angus Macaulay, NU 1966, Oral History Interview May 5, 2015 Interviewed by Sarah Yahm AM It happened in our division when I was there. SY Really? AM I want you to ask me about - most of the guys who went to Vietnam they were gone for a year I was gone for almost two years And I think a question you might want to - that may come up would be what I - the perception of change I felt had happened in the US when I came home SY You know I was going to ask you about that And keep in mind this is casual and so if there's something you want me to ask just tell me We'll just - and you know just be like "Something I've been thinking about." AM Now what do you do? Would you transcribe this eventually? SY I have an assistant who transcribes it. AM Don't you have software that transcribes it? SY It doesn't work because there's so much that's in context and so the software misses AM Ah! SY - that and they botch words and they don't do grammar AM Will I ever see a copy of it? SY Yeah so the way it works is that so we do this recording I get back to Norwich the backlog could be a couple of months AM Oh don't worry about it SY - because transcribing takes a long time Clark gets to work on transcribing it Then what you get in the mail is a copy of the transcript and a CD of the interview You review the transcript make sure things are accurate Did you know Bill Bonk? AM Oh yeah SY Yeah well he AM Bill's a good friend of mine. SY Bill still needs - if you talk to him tell him to send me back my transcript Anyway so you know I sent - I interviewed Bill I sent him his transcript We talked for hours; it was an amazing interview And but you know there are some things like I you know I try to figure out all the place names correctly but there are some you know Vietnam-era military acronyms that I might mess up etc. AM Oh okay don't worry no don't worry about it SY - so he goes through and but he - so then he has to read through it and he has to you know make sure everything is correct and then he sends it Or also there are some things he told me that might be classified that he might want out of the record So you have the opportunity at that point to AM No I don't think I have any (laughs) SY He had a couple of secret missions I think he'll be fine with keeping them in But he might want to go through and think about that right? So then - or for instance somebody on tape said something mean about her mother-in-law and she's going to want to cut that out when I send her her transcript back right? Because this is going to be available on the website right? So the idea is you get it you look through it you make sure that there's nothing - or I interviewed an Iranian woman who describes how she left Iran illegally She's going to need to edit that out so that when she tries to go back to Iran for a visit she's not going to have issues leaving. AM Now how many people from our era have you interviewed? SY Let's see I have a bunch on the list to interview (repeats herself louder) I have a bunch on the list to interview AM From class of '66? SY Yeah there's - there - because of that recent Vietnam issue that came out of the Norwich Record? AM Right. SY A couple of people came out of the woodwork. AM Right. SY But I think Bill Bonk might be one of the - yeah and other people who were in Vietnam AM Bill was in my class Bill's a pretty good friend of mine yeah. SY He's great He's great A great storyteller. AM Yeah. SY So then I have a bunch of other people who've been in Vietnam but were either behind you or ahead of you right by a couple of years So yeah So that's the way it works AM Okay SY - is we have a conversation you get it back you get to look at it and then you sign off on it And then you know eventually they'll be a searchable archive So the idea is that if a student is interested in you know in Vietnam they'll go they'll type in "Vietnam" and then all of the transcripts will come up And if they're interested in a particular thing about Vietnam they can search for those particular words or things. AM Okay. SY And they'll have this - this sample set right of Norwich graduates and they'll be able to sort of you know ascertain certain things about US foreign policy in the 20th century I mean the idea is that this will be a research tool. AM Oh okay. SY Yeah So that's - that's essentially that's the way it works. AM Go. SY All right So here we are I'm interviewing Angus Macaulay It is May 5th - AM Are we on? SY Yeah I'm on And I'll just cut out that first part where we were chatting It's May 5th - correct? Yeah and we're at his house in Maine and we're going to begin interviewing I need to check levels AM Okay SY So if you could just I don't know tell me what you ate for breakfast today AM Well this is about - how is that level? Does that level work for you? SY Yeah it's pretty good If we can get just a little closer - AM A little closer Does that level work for you? SY Yeah that's good AM All right SY Let me actually check one thing I need to make sure - I need to know which - yep okay that is number one Okay AM Okay. SY So we're just going to start out a little bit with your early life So where were you born? AM Was born in New York Actually I was born in White Plains New York but I was raised in Chappaqua New York which is just about 35 miles north of New York City and born in 1942 SY And when you were a kid did you have any idea of what you wanted to be when you grew up? AM Well as we were talking earlier I had a you know a couple of things in my life One was I had done a lot of artwork as a kid and I had several members of my family that had served in the military So those were sort of the two options that I was looking at both military and art And I applied to Norwich I also applied to a couple of art schools several art schools in fact And my father who had been an artist early in his life really thought that it would be better for me to get a four-year education And I - so I applied to Norwich I got in and that's where I went That was really the only- that was the only I think there were a couple of other schools I applied and got into but it was the only one that I was really interested in SY And had you gone up and visited beforehand? AM Yeah I think I did Yeah as a matter of fact I think I did SY Do you remember what your impression of it was? AM No I really can't remember at this time I mean I - obviously I - the impressions are all with - when you - I can't remember the highway Route 7 is that the one that comes up from the south? Or Route 9 or whatever it is? Route 9 So I always remember coming back to school The - you sort of see the lights of the school and it did look a little - a little cool particularly in the wintertime So that was my impression But it was always a very pretty campus so SY And something I actually always ask in these interviews with people who have ended up going to war is did you play war as a kid? AM Did I play war as a kid? I think anybody who was raised - born during the war and raised during - in the 50s of course we played war I mean we take a look at what was - take a look at what was playing on the movie houses Every time they ever show the movie Sands of Iwo Jima the Marine Corps goes up so yeah we all did SY Yeah AM So SY OK so - so then you get to Norwich and some people find rook week easy some people find rook week to be quite a shock How did you deal with that first moment of- AM I think I probably adapted easier than most simply because I had gone away to prep school and I had lived away from home And when I put them all - string out years away from home I probably had six six and a half seven years as a boarding student away from my - both my parents were professionals My mother was a writer my dad was an art director/consultant So I was comfortable with living away from home I'd also had an uncle and a cousin that'd gone to West Point so they kind of clued me in to what to expect in other words don't attract too much attention to yourself and get real small for your first year and stay out of trouble So I don't think I was overly shocked by what I found I think there were a lot of people in my class that were and obviously it didn't work out for them and they left The turnover in my class was exceptionally high I believe we had - we started with something like 440 and we wound up graduating about 240 So there was a culture unfortunately up there of breaking you And I think that if you're in that kind of a situation you allow yourself to bend and not break SY Do you remember any moments where you were like what the hell did I get into? AM No SY Yeah AM No SY And do you remember - AM Be sure to speak up because - SY Oh I'm sorry! AM Yeah SY Yeah so you don't remember moments of doubt? AM No SY And do you remember were there moments of - were you frightened? AM No SY Were there parts of being a rook that you enjoyed? AM That I enjoyed? I think I enjoyed the idea of being in a group and I think it's still - this is - I think it's fairly true today I noticed that at Norwich there still is a great deal of bonding within each class And I was in K Company and I - it's funny because every once in a while I'll run into somebody who was in K Company when we were freshman And I was in other companies at Norwich in subsequent years and they would always bring back that we were in K Company together So there was a great bonding as a freshman So if you want to say did I enjoy that? Yeah I enjoyed that I enjoyed the idea of bonding I come out of a prep school - a coeducational prep school I came out of a very liberal prep school I had three girls four girls in my class who went to Bennington I mean you want to talk about you know complete opposites We had kids who went to Reed out in Oregon For me to go to Norwich they all thought I was nuts But - and actually I think I felt closer to the guys I was at Norwich with than I did with the kids I was in prep school with although my politics are probably more tuned you know skew more liberal than 90% of my class In fact they probably still do today SY Yeah I'm guessing just from having talked to members of your class and having talked to you Yeah So and that's actually something that I was thinking about in the drive up You're a year you're a year younger than my parents I know they were in college when you were in college and had very different experiences For them they were you know getting actively involved in the protest culture that was going on around them So at Norwich you were sort of insulated from the 60s that was emerging around you Were you sort of aware of the - did you feel alienated from the larger context of youth culture in the US? Was that something you thought about when you were there? AM I think that - I think quite frankly I'm not sure I agree with you First of all the culture of the 60s the counterculture of the 60s which you're talking about is something that happened - SY It's a little later AM That happened a little later That happened in 1968 '69 I think we were very much aware of what was going on in the civil rights movement And I - one of the things that - perhaps one of my most vivid memories is when I was 15 years old I went by myself on a bus ride from New York to Tucson Arizona which took me through Georgia Alabama Mississippi and Louisiana And I was by myself and I saw all of the segregation that was going on in the South And my parents were both very very liberal and they warned me about being very careful about what I said That said it also - my selection at Norwich had a great deal to do with why I did not apply to either VMI or The Citadel both of which I probably would have gotten into but I had some real issues with - the whole issue with segregation And it's interesting because at Norwich we were really insulated - we were insulated from that inasmuch as there were no African-Americans in our class And I remember there was a kid - there were a couple of kids - one Brooks who is now on the Board - I think he's on the Board of Trustees He was a year be- couple of years behind me And then there was a guy by the name of Harvey But there were only two or three African-Americans in our class at Norwich when I was there so it was predominantly a very white school It was also a very blue collar school SY Can you talk about that? AM Hmm? SY Can you talk about that? AM Sure I mean I you know I - yeah it was very blue collar One of my classmates Jake Sartz used to say "It's a blue collar military school." A lot of these kids you know I was - I had a sort of biz- I was bizarre A I was a prep school kid - there weren't a lot of prep school kids there Both of my parents were college educated My grandparents were college educ- my grandfather had a PhD in romance languages So I was with guys that - you know we had one classmate of mine who remains one of my favorite people and his father was a garbage collector and he put his child through Norwich and put another kid through college I think that's the great - that's who we are as a society or who we should be as a society Unfortunately I don't think that's where we're going now I think we've gotten to the point now where college education is so prohibitively expensive that it's going to be impossible for a lot of kids who deserve an education aren't going to get them Now all of this said my roommate my senior year - his father was a doctor His sister was at Marymount down in New York and she went on to Georgetown and got her doctorate in microbiology So - and Barry had also been through prep school So there were - there were some of us that had you know whose parents were well educated Roger Bloomfield - his father had gone through the merchant - what was that state? - New York State Maritime Academy and his mother had gone to Skidmore so it's not - and he was from Wellesley so it's not just saying I was alone Predominantly most of these kids were first generation college edu- these were the first kids in the you know to go to college and it was terrific SY Yeah So you were Senior Buck which means to some degree - could you talk about that? AM Yeah I was a Senior - I was a private for my freshman year for my first half of my sophomore year I was promoted to Corporal for my second semester and I was a Senior Buck my junior - a Junior Buck and a Senior Buck I was also involved with - in those days we did a lot of you know we had all these big weekends like Junior Week and Regimental Ball Weekend and all that stuff I did all the decorating for all those things I mean you go back and look at my stuff underneath my thing I was involved in the Outing Club I was involved in Hilly Chilly- do you know what Hilly Chilly is? Mountain and cold weather training I was on the Rescue Team and that was certainly - all of the guys on the Rescue Team - I think I was the only private on the Rescue Team I'm not s- it just wasn't all that important All that rank was - it would have been nice but it wasn't critical I mean we were all going to be Second Lieutenants when we graduated so quite frankly I you know and as I said to you at lunch I thought I saw a lot - as much bad leadership as I saw good leadership I saw some guys up there that - Roger Bloomfield was one Terry Van Meter was another - Terry Van Meter loved the military I mean this guy you know morning noon and night he loved the military but he never foisted it on anyone else He did his job and whatnot On the flip side there were some guys up there that were just - who were colonels and majors and they were - to them it was - it was really political and they were jerks And by the way these are the guys that don't come back to reunions and these the guys that don't give any money to the school I'm sure SY Yeah so you said earlier that you were sort of able to separate the bullshit from what you felt was meaningful So I guess what did you find meaningful and what did you kind of think was bullshit? How did you - AM I thought the Honor Code was the most meaningful thing I got out of the school In fact I wrote to Rich Schneider after reading the book - there's a wonderful book called The Nightingale's Song and it is about John McCain James Webb John Poindexter and Bud McFarlane They were all naval academy graduates they all lived under the honor code You know the story of McCain in Vietnam you know the st- I don't know if you know much about Jim Webb but Jim Webb was a Navy Cross recipient These guys were honorable men Poindexter and McFarlane and Oliver North all got involved with you know with this thing with Iran-Contra and cover-ups and whatnot and it's all about the honor And that's what the book is about and I wrote to Rich Schneider and I said that should be required reading that if you don't have personal honor you don't have nothing SY So do you remember moments when the Honor Code was applied? (phone rings) When you ah let's pause for a moment - AM Don't worry about it SY I don't know I've interviewed other people who had ethical struggles They just - AM I did SY Could you talk about those? AM Yeah I'll tell you a funny story We had a professor that every year would - I was - I can't even remember the course - and - but he would always publish - he always asked three questions on his final exam or five questions whatever it was out of 10 questions or 20 questions And there was always the same 20 questions and he always selected five of them And somebody had figured it out and so what I did was I figured out what 20 questions were and knew what the 20 answers to 20 questions were And I passed the course and all of a sudden I said "Was that an ethical issue?" And so I went to John [Molano?] who was I mean this sounds stupid believe me it sounds - I mean I think how stupid it is I went to Molano who was the Head of the Honor Committee I said "Joe you know I may the heck I may have committed an honor code violation." And I explained it to Joe and Joe said "Get lost That's Mickey Mouse." There were yeah there were honor code violations you know that I saw up there I don't - I don't remember there wasn't any -a lot of stealing I mean it just - it worked Is that what you're asking? SY Yeah moments like that - or how you internalized it It sounds like you resonated with it right away? How was it taught I guess is my question? AM How did you what? SY How was it taught? AM Well (laughs) honestly it's real simple A cadet does not lie steal cheat or condone people who do I mean (laughs) it's not much more to it than that Now you might have a booklet that explains all the legal ramifications but that's the - it's almost like an article in the Constitution it's real simple language - SY And you bought into it right away? It resonated with you? AM I think you buy into it because quite frankly if you don't have it you got to live with yourself And there are things we all - I wrote in that book that I gave you that you did for my 25th reunion about PTSD Did you remember to - did you read what I wrote about it? That there may be instances of PTSD that were caused by people who did things that they weren't particularly proud of Now I'm not sure I haven't modified that a bit to be more empathetic and understanding of what PTSD is I think everybody suffered from it at some degree But I think there were people that if you did watch that documentary on My Lai I was struck - there were two people who were involved one person who feels no responsibility for it and another one who feels a great deal of responsibility for it And I think PTSD has - there is - there were cases of situa- I don't know how people could live with themselves if they committed the kinds of offenses that were committed in Vietnam SY So I mean a big - right I mean when you're looking at something like My Lai or when you're looking at something like Abu Ghraib right? It requires being able to not follow orders right sometimes? AM I had an instance when I first got to Vietnam where I had a platoon and I was assigned to work with an infantry company And we had taken a prisoner - actually we had two of them and both of them were badly wounded they may have been patched up - well one of them excuse me one of them was badly wounded the other one was just tied up He was tied with his hands behind his back And they brought them out to where we were They flew them out by helicopter and we were going to go search for the weapons because the guy was going to take us to where his weapons were And he - one of them was so badly wounded he was on a stretcher and they were actually putting what do you call it some fluids into him or they actually had a bottle up there and the whole trail But the other guy he took these guy- he took the infantry men over to this spider trap - these are tunnels - and he said "It's down - my weapons are down there." And one of the guys went down there and it was booby trapped with spik- with Punji sticks Do you know what they are Punji sticks? They're sharpened bamboo sticks And they pulled him out The guy was messed up badly and everybody was trying to help this guy get him out of the hole and the prisoner broke loose and ran away And fortunately somebody - it took them about a half an hour but they did find him And they brought him back and one of the Vietnamese interpreters started to really beat him up badly to try and get information from him And at one point they dragged him over to one of our armored personnel carriers and said "OK let's roll over - let's roll over him with it." And at that point I said "OK pal that's about as far as I'm going to go." I mean I - you know I was brand new and that's no excuse and this guy was obviously a captain and I was a lieutenant but at that point I saw this thing was going to go across the edge that I wasn't ready to go I think there were a lot of people that were forced into those kinds of situations throughout Vietnam And I'm not going to kid you if you think that any one of us were easy on POWs you're dreaming It was just a very very difficult time particularly when you lost people That gives no excuse to what happened at My Lai because that was his excuse was "I lost a lot of people." Well goddammit I lost a lot of people but I didn't kill people to even the score and what - how are you evening the score? That one I don't get And how do you do it by evening the score with men women and children - or with women and children? I mean that is even further afield so Does that answer your question? SY Yeah what do you think enabled you to stand up to that captain in that moment? (repeats herself louder) What do you think enabled you to stand up to that captain in that moment? AM I don't think it was a big deal I mean I just said "It ain't gonna happen sir." And that didn't happen I mean it just wasn't going to happen I was not going to put one of my vehicles or one of my kids in a position where he had to make you know where he had to be part of that SY In terms of what I've been reading about Vietnam and PTSD I think part of what happened to a lot of enlisted men was that they didn't have officers who were taking care of them right? So the fact that you were thinking about what that would do to the men in your platoon protected them and so there was still a moral universe that they were functioning within Does that make sense? AM Well I think it makes sense I - there's a film out called Platoon I don't know if you've ever seen it but if you haven't seen it I really suggest you do And in the film the platoon sergeant Sergeant Barnes literally was pushing a platoon leader a young lieutenant around you know so you're not going to do this you're not going to do that Quite frankly I had the good fortune of having served for a year in K- almost a year in Korea I'd been a company commander in Korea and I had more sergeants rep- I had you know piles of sergeants reporting to me and other officers So at that point nobody was going to talk - no non-commissioned officer was going to talk to me and no enlisted officer - no enlisted man- was going to talk to me By the same token I had a wonderful medic who worked for me who used to remind me that we all put our pants on the same way every morning one leg at a time And quite frankly it was a tough enough situation that I didn't - you didn't have to spend a lot of time saluting and whatever I must say that in - I was really quite honored of the fact that I was always shown the greatest respect The main guys were very good to me Maybe the best reward I got was I got a wonderful gold watch mailed to me by my unit after I left I don't know how the guys got those gold watches from their unit We got you know other stuff But you know when I got that that's always been a prize possession SY What do you think made you a good leader? (repeats herself louder) What do you think made you a good leader? AM I don't know that I was a good leader I just (laughs) - I was a - you know I - that's tough to say what is a good leader and what's a bad leader? I think it - it's a matter of - well there's a thing that they try and - they used to try and talk about it The most important thing to start with is the mission I mean you got a job to do And then the second most important thing is to take care of your people And then the third thing to worry about is to take care of yourself Unfortunately I used to put it this way Vietnam was full of a lot of guys who were interested in their career There were not a lot of professionals We were talking about Fran Brennan who was the Class of 1964 Fran was a consummate professional I went down and spent a day with Fran He was a company commander He had A Company- first of the 6th Infantry You could just see the way he carried himself from the way he acted around his people that this was a guy they absolutely loved and respected So you know what do I think makes a great leader? Guys like Fran Brennan they're great leaders and what you try to do is you know you try and think how would Fran Brennan have operated? I had a comp- troop commander a company commander in Korea named [Daryl Blaylock?] and he was the same kind of guy He'd been an all-American at Alabama played football career army officer - and it was just the way he treated people If you treat people with respect you know and make them p- not make them part of the decision process because it isn't a democracy You always have to remember at best it's an enlightened despotism That you just treat people with respect make them part of the process let them know what's going on try not to be too terribly - show any you know too terrible - fear because quite frankly when things start happening quickly as it did a number of times after a while you try not to show it if you can But by the way anybody who tells you you weren't scared is either a fool or crazy or doesn't know what they're talking about SY Yeah Let's go back a little bit Did you commission right after you graduated? AM Right SY You did? AM Yeah SY Yeah And you went to Korea? AM Well first I went down to Fort Knox and I spent - went down to the Armor Officers Basic course at Fort Knox And I had volunteered for Vietnam at Norwich SY Really? And did you know what was going on over there? AM Oh yeah But I - this is part of who I am I mean to be honest is that I kind of sensed what was going - I sensed the importance of what was going on I'm not sure I sens- understood exactly what was going on The Battle of Ia Drang Valley happened the month my senior year November my senior year 1965 and I volunteered not only for Vietnam but I volunteered for the First Calvary Division I'm not sure well first of all I said how the hell can you be in the army and not be where it's happening? What I didn't realize and I came to realize very quickly is that it was the defining moment of my generation I have classmates of mine who and God Bl- I love them dearly and they went to Germany and/or you know they went to Fort Polk Louisiana or Fort Benning and spent two years and got out and did nothing I mean they did their service and they're honorable veterans and they probably would have been superb guys in Vietnam but they weren't there And there was a big difference between being there and not being there So I went to Fort Knox and then when I got to Fort Knox they told me that I had to spend a year at Fort Knox before going to Vietnam but I was going They said "You're going." And I said "Well what am I going to do?" And they said "Well you're going to be an OCS TAC officer You're going to run like Officer Candidates like at Norwich." And I went I hated that stuff I hate all that nonsense of shining your shoes and running around and taking people and bossing and all that stuff And I said "I would really would rather be with troops I want to be with real troops." And so I went to see my company commander and I said "Is there a way I can find some troop duty?" And the guy said "Well not unless you're willing to go to Korea." And I said "Fine I'll go to Korea for a year." And he says "You're crazy." And I went "Yeah but I'm single and I got you know." You see when you're that single I mean you have no other responsibilities and so I got on the phone on - it was funny because there was another guy I grew up with from Pleasantville New York - actually Jimmy [Skiff?] - and Jim said "Gee that's a great idea." He wan- he was going to Vietnam too We had the same timetable And so Jim sat down and wrote a letter to somebody in the Pentagon and I sat down and somebody gave me a phone number and I called the guy - called this guy He said "You crazy?" I said "Yeah." He said "Fine I'll cut your orders this afternoon." You know and Jim had to wait four weeks to get an answer (laughs) So I went to Korea and I got to Korea And they were going to send me to a tank outfit and I went "No I'd rather go to a cav outfit." And they said "Well we got a tank outfit open we need somebody in it - cav outfit." I said "I really rather go to a cav unit." And so I went to attend cav and you know I spent almost nine months there SY What were you doing in Korea and what was your impression of Korea? AM Well you have to realize I still think Korea is even today the most dangerous place in the world We were working - the cav squadron which is a battalion was operating with the 7th Division I started out basically in staff headquarters but they immediately moved me over to B Troop And I was the First Platoon Leader of B Troop and also the Executive Officer because the guy only had - it was the Captain and myself And there were - because Vietnam you got to realize there was such a shortage of officers that it was just him and me And one day he walked in I guess this was around - I put it in my notes but it was in the spring of 1967 he came in and he said - I think I'd been in there three months three and a half months - and he said "Well I got good news and good news." I said "What's that?" He said "The good news is I'm going home early and I'm leaving in two weeks." I said "Great What's the other good news?" He says "You're the new troop commander." So what - Second Lieutenant is normally slotted for platoon and the idea that I'm running now a company and I was doing it by myself with a bunch of sergeants And these guys were terrific I mean these guys really took me under their wing and they taught me a lot of good stuff And so I did that for a year and then finally I started getting in platoon leaders - all of whom by the way had come out of OCS and all of them you know I was at that point I was older than most of these guys I was 24 25 - 24 And these guys were 18 - well no not 18 they were about 19 and 20 years old One or - one of them - two of them had two years of college but they had quit college They were very much like William Calley He was a product of you know he'd spent a year in college and gotten thrown out and. And you know OCS at one time was really one of the really premier ways of commissioning guys During Vietnam I saw a bunch of guys come out of OCS - some of them I thought were terrific and some of them I thought were just bozos because they just - and it wasn't their fault It was - they were just so young So anyway I ran the company for - until September We were basically doing everything from working - doing some work up on the DMZ Basically we were just an occupation force doing a lot of stuff out in the field a lot of training out in the field which was really great for me because by the time I got to Vietnam I was familiar with working with vehicles I was familiar with working with people I was working with - familiar with working with maps with radios and all this stuff Whereas if I had stayed at Fort Knox I would have never gotten that kind of experience Fast forward when I show up in Vietnam I said "Oh I'm up on my way to the 1st Calvary." They said "Well they've changed your orders You're going now to F Troop 17th Cav part of the 196th Light Infantry." Now two things went through my mind First of all I had been at Fort Devens when the 196th was there and they were a complete bozo outfit They were really - couldn't find their way out of a paper bag And the worst of them was this F Troop So I had a real problem and I got up there and of course they'd been in Vietnam for over a year By that time it had all of this all of the badness knocked out of them They were very very good; they were very seasoned When I got to the unit the troop commander opened my 2-0-1 file they looked at my 2-0-1 file and they said "You have more command time than I do." He said "Do you mind commanding a platoon again?" And I said "Why? I'm - I was just promoted to First Lieutenant not to Captain of the whatever-you-want-me-to-do." So I was a platoon leader for four months and then became Executive Officer just when the Tet Offensive broke out SY When you think about Vietnam do you have sense memories of Vietnam? Smells sounds? AM I don't think there's a day - there's a day that doesn't go by that I don't think about it SY How do you think about it? How does it come to you? AM That's hard to say I mean it just you know different things You know just yeah I mean your mind always sort of lies - I mean for years I couldn't go to sleep at night before without drifting back to it Now it's a lot easier I've remained very close to the people In fact this morning I wrote to - oh probably we're going to have a reunion down in Florida in October and one of the guys who actually had been a driver for me - he and I are coordinating Another guy who had been a driver for me - radio operator you know we're just trying to put it all together so you know I for some reason I will always think about it I mean it just - it comes back so I mean you have to realize that the intensity of those situations particularly the ones when there was some where people were either getting hurt or you were hurting people or you want to call it combat or whatever It's all slow motion I don't know when you talked to other people whether they've said the same thing that you - it - I can - the first big firefight I got into I felt like after you know it seemed like hours Of course I looked at my watch and we'd only been going at it for a half an hour and I felt like I'd been there for four hours or five hours So you're - this - it becomes very intense and the memories and the images become very very vivid in your mind SY Yeah Did you react to battle or combat the way you thought you would beforehand? AM Well as I say in my - in some of the stuff I've left you I mean I - yeah I guess I did No I - that's a hard question to answer I mean I don't know how the hell I thought I was going to react SY How did you react? AM Well I - we - one of the guys because we were a mobile outfit you ask me how could someone have taken pictures? Well because we had mobility and so guys could carry cameras One guy actually had a tape recorder during the middle of a firefight and I remember listening to that tape And it was a major firefight I mean it lasted all day And I think the thing that shocked me the most about that tape was the fact that I sounded reasonably cool on the radio I mean I kept hearing myself and saying "My God you know I was terrified" and I was! And I was listening to the tape and yet the person talking on the radio was not displaying - does that make any sense to you? SY It makes a lot of sense to me that you managed to sort of perform your role AM Well yeah you know - I - yes but don't overstate (laughs) my heroism because believe me it was just - I think it's also part of that if you want to call it the Norwich training or West Point training or VMI or any one of those when you come out of that there's a lot of that stuff that you - it becomes second nature to you to react to and you do it out of understanding that there are procedures that you're going to have to follow And it's very funny because I remember that we used to have this thing called Mars Stations and Mars Stations were these telephone setups where you could call the United States And I'd been overseas at that point probably 15 months and I hadn't spoken to my parents and - it's not like today with a cell phone - and so somebody set up a phone call and when you get on the radio - when you get on the phone you're actually talking on a radio that you know the guy briefing you said "Look it's just like radio procedure" you know you talk and then you say "Over." You know you use all the formality of radio procedure Well hell I get on the phone I was so excited I forgot radio procedure On the other hand my mother who had never talked on a radio in her life had been briefed similar and she was doing everything correctly So yeah I don't know SY Do you still have your letters? Does anybody have the letters you wrote? AM Yeah I have them upstairs and actually I didn't send them to you when they did that issue Yeah I have them SY Would - are you - is there any part - you want to donate them or are they too private? AM There's some things in there It's funny you should say that because when I - when that whole thing came up and they were looking for letters and I was going to send them in and I had found them and it was when I was a company commander And it was a letter I found And by the way ask me about the second letter because I want to talk about the second letter that I got Well no maybe a third one I went and read that letter and it was sort of not chatty it was sort of telling them what was going on This had to have been in the spring of '6-summer of '68 And I remember reading in a line or a paragraph about the fact that one of my people had been charged with rape which was unusual for our unit And what really shocked me today is I can't remember exactly what happened SY I suspect there was so much going on that was so awful all the time that that one just disappeared AM Well you know it's very funny - well before I get to the second letter I'll mention another one We had a - we were operating out of a - at one point in the summer of 1968 they took my company they put us out on a base camp out in the middle of nowhere in the Quế Sơn Valley a place called LZ Colt And by the way there are photographs in that CD that I'm going to give you has pictures of LZ Colt SY I'm wondering if we should look through some of this stuff because it might trigger your memories - AM No I know those photographs pretty well We were out there and we used to send guys home three days before - you came out of the field three days before your turn to rotate You know you went - or two days whatever the deal was And we sent the guy back - we sent this kid back to LZ Baldy which was our forward operating area And he was going to get on a truck and he was going to ride in a truck from LZ Baldy about 40 miles - 40 kilometers south to Chu Lai - and he was going to go through the medical thing and clear all his stuff and then fly home That is the last day That's your date you know that's it you're home and it's a cakewalk at that point He's riding in this truck and coming in the opposite direction is a tank And the guy who's riding on the tank wanted to know how f- asks the tank driver "How fast will this thing really go?" And there's an accident and this kid is killed who's on his way home - the last day! That was whatever that date is and you can look it up was the day that Martin Luther King was shot Is that '68? I think it was '68 SY It was '68 AM Yeah it was either Ja- it was either King or Kennedy I can't remember which It was Kennedy I think It was Kennedy SY Right - AM Bobby Kennedy SY - because they were in rapid succession AM And because I had been a big Kennedy pa- fan somebody radioed me and said "Bobby Kennedy has been shot." It was Bob Kennedy And on the heels of that I heard this other news and I just - I remember my reaction was I could really give a shit about Bobby Kennedy at this point The idea that this poor kid had gone through all of this and then died was ridiculous I mean it was just terrible The other one the other letter and I have the letter It was from a parent of a kid we lost and it was right after I became troop commander And the parents were writing me a letter consoling me for the loss of their own son because quote as I recall the words "they knew the kid had been well-led blah blah blah blah." And the problem is is now if we had been talking about my platoon I could remember every kid in my platoon At that point I had a company I had three platoons I remember the kid's name but I couldn't picture his face And here these parents were writing this incredible letter to me and I couldn't remember the kid's face SY Oh! AM So that's you know these are the you know I don't know And there were so many of these you know you lose one the first - last day in Vietnam We had a kid who was killed - I became troop commander when the troop commander just - I became troop commander twice but the second time which for the longest period I took over when the troop commander's vehicle hit a mine and it was made up of white phosphorous Do you know what white phosphorous is? It burned the whole thing burned the entire crew up And he got blown free and he got out and quite frankly it's too bad he got out He should have been killed because quite frankly he had put these people in a position where they should not have been You don't cross a bridge in a vehicle You know that there's going to be a mine at the end of that bridge You go find another way It's the only - but anyway I went back and looked at the vehicle The vehicle was up on its end and everything had fallen down inside And I went back and I purposely went in to look at one of the bodies because the kid had just joined the unit and nobody knew who he was And I always felt that I - I felt an obligation to see this kid if only to remember him because nobody else would And in fact he was so new to the unit that they would not allow me to positively identify him I think you had to be in the unit for seven days or six days or something like that before anybody could give you a positive ID So he was obviously shipped home and done by dental records or something like that So it was you know that was you know there was always that first day there was that last day there was the letter I mean you get these sort of bizarre things that happen to you so there SY Did you have to write letters home - AM Oh yeah SY - when a kid in your unit died? Do you remember that process? AM Yeah and that was strange because I as I said I became troop commander twice The second time- and again it's in that recollections that I wrote- my troop commander went on R&R and he went on R&R the day the Tet Offensive broke out And that in itself would have been OK except we didn't know how serious it was so he went home And he was gone - usually those R&Rs were about a week and he was gone for close to two weeks maybe even a little longer And of course part of the Tet Offensive was they were out planting mines and booby traps all over the place In the first vehicle we lost we had 13 guys on board and all of them were killed Now four of them were part of my troop and nine of them were from the infantry So somebody else had to write those other nine letters but I had to write those four letters But the last guy killed in the whole that two-week period happened to be a guy who was probably my best friend He was a buck sergeant who had been in my platoon And his name was Ron Adams just a terrific guy This was his - he had been in Vietnam with another unit had been sent to us He had had prior service He had been in - I think he had been in the Air Force or Navy I guess - married had a child And I actually got to I mean we were close enough that I knew about his wife and his children and all so And so I sat down and I wrote - I went beyond the quote "standard letter" because I thought that that's what they would want to hear from me because obviously I assumed that they knew that we were pretty good friends Then the letter got bounced back - you can't write that You have to use the form Now in 1997 I posted something about Ron on the virtual wall And I guess I left my email because the next thing I know I got an email from his niece and the next thing I know I got an email from Ron's sister And then Ron's sister called me and asked - she was coming up to Boston - we were living in Boston at the time - and so she would she asked if she could come out and see me I said "Absolutely." So we spent the whole day together talking about her brother And what was sad about it - it was she said you know when he was wounded or when he was killed he was first listed as MIA And she said "The impression we always had is that he had been missing and you all had left him." And I said "Well no nothing but - his vehicle blew up is what happened" and he and another fellow - a kid by the name of Lester Smart Mack Smart Maxwell Smart from Get Smart - remember that movie? Well that's why his nickname was Mack And I said "No no he was killed and you know we put him together and sent him back." And she said "We were always under the impression that you had left him." And I said "Well again that was not true." So. SY I wish you'd been able to send that letter AM Huh? SY I wish you'd been able to send that first letter AM Well you know listen I - you know I write better today than I did then (laughs) I prob- no I you know listen I must say that one thing that supposedly Lyndon Johnson did - are you aware that he signed every letter? SY I wasn't. AM Yeah SY That's interesting AM The way it worked from what I understood is that when someone was lost it would go - the company commander would write a letter and then the battalion commander brigade division And I think it went down to MACP [mortuary affairs collection point] and Westmoreland would sign the letter and then a letter went home But then the whole package went to the White House and he signed it Now I don't know if that's true or not but that was what I was under the impression is the way it operated But the President's letter started and yours was on the bottom But yeah I wrote - that was difficult On the other side I got a letter from one of my - I'll just say one of my company commanders - I won't identify which one But I got - because we were a separate battalion - company we had no battalion I got - somebody walked in my office one day we were back in the rear he said "Lieutenant we have a letter for the chaplain." I said "Well I suppose I'm the chaplain too." And I opened it up and it was from some woman who was obviously an extra-marital girlfriend of the Captain and she was wondering why he hadn't written (laughs) I knew he was married so I - I just - I put that one in the circular file I didn't want to touch that one so my experience of being a chaplain was very short-lived SY Very brief so the guy who you said was your best friend he was a sergeant? AM Yeah SY So was that - I somehow thought because he was technically enlisted because he was an NCO - (repeats herself louder) because he was an NCO - AM Right SY - and you were a commissioned officer would that be considered fraternizing? How did those boundaries work? AM Well I you know I don't think - that - you got to re- I mean think about that question Think about it - no it doesn't - no all that stuff go- that is f- that maybe works in the rear some place But it doesn't work in the real world when somebody is shooting at you or you're out on an operation Now I had a - there was a - I have had - I had one young guy - night we were working an operation and we were working at night and we were loggered up - "loggered up" is like we were hunkered into a position and we had a - we were being infiltrated And I was very cautious about opening fire at night primarily because tracer rounds will give you away And I was telling the guys that "Look these people were coming in so close that we can use hand grenades And the reality is is that hand grenades will leave no telltale where they came from So I want you to toss a grenade out there and scare them away." Quite frankly I didn't want to get into a firefight at that point because it all - it's too confusing but there was an American - we were on one side of a river and there was an American unit on the other side of the river And what I was terrified and actually did happen was we - two American units wound up shooting at each other And that kind of stuff happened But anyway during the course of this sort of very quiet radio talk going back and forth between myself and the sergeant the guy kept saying that he was going to open up fire and I said finally I said "Goddammit I'm the lieutenant and today I get to be the troop commander Now tomorrow if I'm dead and you are the troop commander you can make that decision." And you know but I didn't have to do that kind of stuff a lot That you know that didn't - SY There was no standing on ceremony AM No It really wasn't I will tell you I think probably one of the more amusing - we were out in the valley and there were 30 ve- we had 30-plus vehicles - and it was raining it was lousy and it had been a very uneventful trip And you have to understand everybody is plugged in Everybody has a radio set on everybody's got a microphone the whole thing So you got 30+ vehicles four men - at least four guys per vehicle so you got 120 radios operating Now my - our call - my call sign was Fox - well my call sign had been Fox 6 but my nickname became Fox So they whenever they were talking they would talk Lieutenant Fox and what have you regardless of what our real call sign was So we're crossing this very very shallow river and it was very muddy and one of the vehicles - and we were tired I mean we'd been out for da- several days and we wanted to get back into base camp I was wet I was tired everybody else was wet everybody else was tired everybody else was fed up to here And I remember all of a sudden I got a radio call I would track behind the first platoon - First A vehicle zone and on my vehicle and then there would be 16 vehicles behind me Is that right? And then essentially well essentially I said 24 there'd be two in the head if I was taking 26 out I guess And one of the vehicles behind me threw his track In other words the whole thing came on - off the tracks Does that make sense to you? OK "threw a track." And I got off on a God- because the guy had taken too sharp a turn And I got on a Goddammit! I went on a blue streak of four letter words and I stood up on my vehicle I was looking back at this guy and I'm going on and on and I hear this voice say "Fuck you Fox!" And I looked around and every eyeball in the unit was looking at me And all of a sudden I realized they were absolutely right They were just as tired they were just as wet they were just as pissed off and all I could do was laugh So I mean does that explain to you the relationship? I mean I'm going to need - I wrote an email this morning - the four guys I'm going to - the three guys I'm trying to get together - we're going to be down and - all of them were sergeants One of them lost both legs and his arm you know and we - we don't call each other lieutenant we don't call each other sergeant It's Angus it's Chris it's Jim it's Tom Tom is an interesting guy Tom is a Catholic priest and if Tom says "All those words that you used on the radio I finally learned what they meant when I got to the seminary" because they swore just as bad as you did So I don't know SY I think that story actually answers the question I asked about you as a leader right? That's a moment of you being a good leader It's a moment of you having a sense of humor about yourself It's a moment of you being able to take criticism and feedback right and respond accordingly? AM I don't know you know I think that - you - I - that's a tough one I mean I can't make any judgments about myself as a leader That's you know if you want to know who I was as a leader then call Chris [Wunzer?] up And call Jimmy [Sherslee?] up Talk to those guys That's one of the things that I think that's interesting is that these were kids who - Chris had gone to North Texas State played football Lee [Guava?] had gone to the University of Wisconsin one of the smaller University of Wisconsin Jim Sherslee actually went in the Army because the judge said "Either you go in the Army or you're going two years in the slammer." SY That was how my dad's best friend ended up going to Vietnam Yeah. AM Tom [Trippenere?] I think was always destined for the priesthood But these kids it's incredible because they all were either drafted - most of them were drafted you know they all took on the responsibilities of being young leaders And believe me being a squad leader or a section leader - or scout section leader - with two vehicles you're responsible for eight guys You know every couple of days you're going to be the first guy on the truck and if you want to look at some pictures at what happens to a truck when they hit a mine it takes a lot of guts a lot of courage So again yeah I mean I think that standing on about the ceremony of rank - but they always treated me with you know proper deference always called me "Sir" or "LT"- does that sort of. SY Yeah Was there any such thing as a standard day in Vietnam - AM No SY - or was it different every day? AM No and what there is is by the way there's no Saturdays off either no Sundays off I mean you're working seven days a week You're working 24 hours SY And are you just in sort of a heightened state of anxiety all the time? AM Yeah I'll tell you what I've tried to describe this over the years as saying - have you ever been in an automobile accident? SY Yes AM You know that funny feeling just before you hit? SY It's that feeling where you're like "Oh I might be about to die How do I feel about that?" AM Well it might not even be that It might be just so much as you know that you're going to crunch the fender and is that - SY Inevitability? AM Yeah Now that's what Vietnam was like You just ride around with that little feeling in your gut all the time SY That's a good description yeah AM Yes so I mean and by the way when you heighten your anxiety to that level that's why everything is so vivid People say "Well how the hell could you remember that?" Very simple You're walking around - if you lived your life that way every day 24/7 first of all you'd probably go mad but - and that's why you get people high I imagine you wind up with you know a certain amount of battle fatigue or what have you whatever they call it so SY Yeah Did you have nightmares when you were there? Or did you have nightmares when you came home? AM No SY No? AM No I remember going on R&R and I went up to R&R to camp - I went up to Camp Zama in Japan - was it Camp Zama? I guess it was Camp Zama in Japan and - because I knew a girl up in Tokyo that I had met on R&R - I had met between tours She was an American She was going to the American School - university in Tokyo And I thought there might be something there but there really wasn't And I you know it's - I was pretty much involved with a gal in the States but this girl was very very nice and I just thought I wanted to go back and spend some time with her But I remember getting to Camp Zama and that first night - all the enlisted guys were going to Japan They all took them over to barracks and whatnot And the officers of which there weren't very many of us took us to an officer's BOQ Bachelor Officer Quarters I got a private room and a shower and all that stuff And I remember having to - first of all I couldn't go to sleep because it was so quiet And then I remember actually pulling all my stuff and sleeping on the floor because I was so used to sleeping on the floor of an APC And on the next night I gave in and went to sleep like a regular person SY Like a regular guy So what are the incidents that you've written up? Are they particular incidents? AM Well the only one I really I mean I had written a long article about a helicopter pilot who I thought had done some extraordinary things on Thanksgiving Day in 1967 which was probably the biggest firefight I was ever in SY Do you want to tell that story? AM Hmm? SY Do you want to tell that story? AM Well it's all there I mean I - it - when I say yeah I mean when I say tell a story I was a platoon leader who - we were - we weren't supposed to be there and I didn't even know this other operation was going on And all of a sudden I got a radio call to move about four -three or four kilometers south that our second platoon was - had been amb- partly ambushed and I didn't even know they were part of a major task force And I got down there and they had been ambushed There were two I think it was two companies of Americans plus our - one of our platoons and four tanks And we had run into - and the size of the unit I'm never been - never quite sure but from what I understand it was a couple of companies of North Vietnamese And they took out the platoon leader's tank which took the task force commander and knocked him off the vehicle The vehicle ran over his arm this Major - I've gotten to know the guy very very well His name is [Gill Dorlan?] So all of a sudden I basically you better move down there and help out And so I blithefully charged in there not having a bloody idea what's going on And when we pull in there all these vehicles were sort of limp and getting shot at and there's this big wooden line on a hill and it was just very very messy And so the article I wrote about or what I had written in that article was a helicopter pilot that came in to drop off some infantry support and wound up and not through his own fault but wound up literally landing in a crossfire between us and the North Vietnamese And rather than just taking off dropping the troops he let his helicopter down and acted as a screen so the troops could come back to our line and he was just getting pasted and finally he took off and he was just you know kicking out smoke and all that stuff and went back And I - I've always thought that was probably one of the most heroic things I've ever seen because it was done on purpose I mean clearly he was trying to keep these kids from getting shot up And then the whole operation lasted I guess three or four days And so the next part of the operation was for us to assault the hill and that again is written in all the reflections that I've written about But what I - a couple of things as I was re-reading that again this morning the things I remember most were one the - when we got the orders to move and you asked me about - SY Ethics? AM No natural leadership and also - there also comes a point in time when you wind up being led because everybody's on a radio and so they heard we were moving out and going up that hill and everybody just started moving I didn't have to tell anybody to move They just started moving I always wondered to myself whether - did I really have the courage to give the order to move? And the next thing I know we're trying to - we're going up this hill That's the first thing I remember most about So I was as led as much up that hill as anybody else The second thing I remember most was it was a struggle getting up that hill because these guys were very - these North Vietnamese were dug in in bunkers and whatnot We had to take them out And then when we got to the top we took a round - an RPG round - on the side of our vehicle that hit our vehicle and did not go off It was a dud It would have killed everybody in our vehicle had it gone off And that's real pucker time when something like that happens where you all of a sudden realize you were that close SY And can you think about that afterwards or do you have to not think about it because it'll make you crazy? AM I don't think I thought about it I mean yeah you think about it I mean I th- I'll tell you what you think about it after - there is a photograph - we'll look at the photographs later but there is a photograph where you can actually see the scar on the side of the vehicle SY So you think about it later the next day AM You think about it later I mean one of the things that I - it's not in that piece is how dry my mouth was I mean it was just - for some reason I don't know why we didn't have more water with us because normally we carried - each vehicle carried five gallons of water But for some reason we didn't have a lot of water I remember that was something and I remember my mouth just tasted like it was cotton on the inside The other thing that happened was - once we cleared - got to the top of the hill and cleared that and we sort of in another - and brought some infantry in with us and they got beaten up very badly We started taking fire from behind us and all of a sudden there was that you know that moment go through your mind that "My God we're surrounded" because they were behind us they were ahead of us and all that stuff And that was pretty scary but also we had so much firepower they weren't going to take us out I mean it was just - it was sort of like a Mexican standoff a lot of shooting And again things out of my notes - I remember a couple of times thinking if everybody would just stop shooting for a few minutes so I could collect my thoughts we'd be probably far better off and I could make more rational decisions (laughs) Yeah I mean and then you know and then of course the thing went on for a couple of days And another recollection I put in there is that we were calling in - there was another village that we're getting a lot of fire from and we called - we were calling in some artillery on it And we were far enough away that I thought you could stand up and observe it until I felt a hunk of shrapnel go by my face and I could feel literally the wind when it went sailing by my head which meant if my head had been two inches three inches left or right I would have been killed And that really scared the hell out of me and I remember going back and getting inside my track and hiding That was - it was a hell of a way to spend Thanksgiving I must say And actually also in my recollections at one point a helicopter - we had been screaming for - we had been screaming for re-supply of ammunition because we'd been shooting all morning and our firing discipline was awful In other words we weren't controlling how much we were shooting and I wasn't paying much attention to it I figured "Hell Uncle Sam's running this thing and my God it's a bottomless pit Look at the Defense Department budget." And so when we started running low on ammunition I called for re-supply And this helicopter came in and it's all dusty and the crap is all flying all over the place our guys are kicking this stuff off and running over- and it was somebody's Thanksgiving dinner It wasn't ours and I don't even know who ate it because I didn't eat any of it But we didn't get any ammunition Now there is a story - a friend of mine told me it was back at brigade headquarters - I got on the radio and I said "Look I need ammunition." And he said "But when you asked for that re-supply and that screwed up" he said "you got on the radio" and he said "you used a string of four-letter words about the incompetence of people." And at that point General [Geddes?] who was Division Commander walked into brigade headquarters and there I - and this was on a loudspeaker- I was. And Geddes is supposed to have said "Somebody better get that young lieutenant some ammunition because I think he's pissed off enough to come back and shoot you guys" or words to that effect Now I don't know whether that yarn is true I'd like to believe it is SY It's a good story AM It's a good story SY I like that story So I've read about when I read - I think this might have even been on some of letters I read from Norwich alumni - I don't remember about superstitions good luck charms especially when people were "short." Right? That's the phrase when you're about to go home? Things you did to try and guarantee your safety Did you have any of those? AM No SY No? AM I will tell you that - you got to realize I'm there - I was overseas at this point for almost - over 20 months at this point That was longer than anybody and I - albeit eight of it had been in Korea And I was terrified And I was terrified that I was going to get hurt And you know it's a very - I've always felt very guilty about that because I'm now responsible for these 195 kids and I'm worried about my own personal safety and that started to bo- that did bother me We were down - we were down at a place called - we were down at LZ Ross and it was on this road that took - went into the Quế Sơn Valley And I have to say that road had more destroyed vehicles and junk on it - you could shake a stick - had probably more road - there was more damage on that road than any place in Vietnam There probably were more but it was damn near And we had been down there and we were coming back and it was the day before my ro- my turning over the troop to the new guy and he was a Captain And we rode past A Company of the 2nd or the 1st I remember that - and this old Captain was running it this great old guy he was like in his 30s and I you know I mean he was an old guy and he was in his 30s (laughs) and he had this terrible limp from one of his wounds And we went through the gate and I went "It's over man!" I got out and you know as long as I don't get hit in a car accident or shot down in a helicopter I'm cool I'm golden I'm home And we get in and we dismounted and all of a sudden a radio call comes in saying that there was a unit had started taking fire and that we were the new reaction force And I remember climbing up on my vehicle and this Captain who was going to replace me Jim Owens started to follow me And I looked at him I said "Jim would you please stay here because if I fuck up now I don't want anybody to see it." And we started to head out the gate and all of a sudden they called us back and I didn't have to go But I have to tell you that - all of a sudden it got scary Now I'm going to - I told you this and I'm going to tell you what I did next which was really stupid Get down to Chu Lai and I bump into two guys I knew One of them was a Captain - Air Force Captain - and the other one was an Army Captain And the three of us went out and got rip roaring drunk and the Air Force Captain said "I got to go make a flight in a -" what do you call it a f- he was a forward air controller in an O-2 these little tiny bird dog airplanes He says "You want to go for a ride?" I got in the airplane we went off we flew out and I said "You know we're getting awfully close to Laos." And we were and he was supposed to be making a weather flight All I know is that was the stupidest thing I could have possibly done We landed - this was maybe two days after I had turned over the troops - and my Executive Officer is standing there and he's got two bags on there I said "What are you doing?" He says "I just got you a two-day drop That's your plane you're going home." And I got on my airplane and I went home SY Do you remember the moment you turned over your command? Do you remember saying goodbye to people? AM Well actually that flag right up there is the troop guidon and I stole it And I stole it because dammit I felt I'd earned it and I figured they could find another one My Uncle Sam has this sort of bottomless pit called the defense budget and I figured hell if they can build this F-35 they can find another flag Yeah I turned the company over to this guy named Jim Owens who was a National Guard officer and he was a good guy wound up losing his leg And I remember turning the troop over to him and it was a very formal ceremony You know a brigade commander was there and the flags were passed and all that stuff And these guys starting passing out the front gate I mean literally mounted up on it right back to the field And I cried like a baby SY And what were you thinking while you were crying? AM That how much I loved those guys and how much I wished I could stay But that's a very lethal place SY Simultaneously you wished you could stay and wanted to run like hell at the same time AM Yeah You know it's very funny because I had a difficult time when I came home - SY Yeah let's talk about that AM - because I realized I was pretty - when you say I was a good leader I don't know if I was a good leader but I was good at my job And I knew what I was doing And probably the biggest thing that was wrong with that whole war was the fact that it took them a year to find a - somebody who really understood his job and all of a sudden they bring in this guy nice guy but they had to teach him that job all over again SY Right And so everybody was rotating out as soon as they got seasoned AM Yeah I mean once you understood - I mean we would have gotten out of Vietnam if somebody had said "OK we're going to send a half a million Americans to Vietnam and the only people that are - the only people that get to come home are the wounded and the dead And we're just going to keep sending replacements so anyway so those of you guys who were there you'd better win this damn thing" because that's basically the way the North Vietnamese were operating I mean these guys you know that's the thing we all seem to forget is that they were good soldiers They were hard tough soldiers and these guys A were fighting for all the values that we purportedly were fighting for and the reality is that they didn't get to go home They fought until they were either dead wounded or you know They certainly didn't go home on R&R and they didn't have you know Coca Cola they didn't have television they didn't have all that nonsense We brought too much creature comforts to it all I remember going down to Chu Lai on a stand down - we used to pull units out took them down and basically cleaned guys up because after you've been out on the field for a while they pick up all sorts of garbage And you want to get them a little life of sanity you see SY We're talking like lice fungus like all - AM Well we would take them down to the Chu Lai beach and we used to rotate a platoon down at a time And you know we'd get down there and we'd get them some steak and we'd you know beer and take them to the beach and all that stuff And there were - I guess they went to the village and played around with the girls I suppose SY I was going to say they picked up some other things too AM Yeah that's true too But I remember riding along the bunker line at Chu Lai and riding by a bunker - and I was - and when I was down in Chu Lai I actually put on my little lieutenant bar and all that stuff pretended to be an officer And I remember riding by the bunker line at night and all of a sudden I saw what looked like I thought a television screen And I stopped the guy backed up - we backed up my Jeep and drove over to the bunker And these guys were in there watching television and they were watching and laughing And I'm saying to myself "This is insanity You got kids out there -" and that by the way is the other issue And I don't know any of the other guys you talked to about - you talked to Bill Bonk - Bill was on a very [012352] (inaudible) aviation outfit and you really couldn't make a lot of mistakes in his business because not only were you getting shot at but you also had to fly an airplane We didn't have the drug problem and that's something you haven't asked about The drug problem - I imagine it went on I know that I caught one guy with - a buck sergeant early on with a guy in my platoon actually - I caught him with a - SY A joint? AM - like a baggie full of five joints He was changing a track and he was looking for a cigarette And he says "Lieutenant would you reach in my pocket and get a cigarette?" Well I reached in and grabbed a pack but I felt something else I pulled it out I looked at it and I just dropped it in the mud and stepped on it and handed him his cigarettes But I don't recall drugs being a big problem - SY So there was no heroin in your unit? AM No no But - the marijuana - but we did have situations where people would bring it up that "So-and-so is smoking dope." And this is how I handled it We had a mortar section and a mortar section is - do you know what a mortar is? SY Uh-huh AM OK We had a mortar section and we had three mortars And I guess we had maybe 10 guys and it was in our big base camp And we couldn't - we didn't carry those mortars out to the field They were too heavy and they were a pain in the neck and carried off too much ammunition shot it off too fast and a lot - too many problems associated with mortars So we just left them in and we left the crews there and we left a lot of illumination And their job was that if base camp got hit they would you know the parachute flares the illumination also So I stole an idea from a movie and it was a wonderful probably the best leadership movie I've ever seen called Twelve O'clock High where the commander of the aviation unit has - takes all the bad guys in the unit and puts them in one bomber He calls it the - what the hell did he call it? I can't remember what he called it - it'll come to me But he put all the bad eggs in one basket So I made - so I took anybody I caught smoking dope I put them down in the mortar pits All you had to do was drop rounds and pop illumination And I would tell guys you're going to you know you're going down to purgatory and you're going down there and if you go home with heroin habits that's your problem but I'm not going to have you in the field Now was it a big problem? No and only because most of the guys didn't want to go to the field with a doper SY Right What about race in your unit? That's the other thing - AM Race? SY - we haven't talked about yeah AM That's an interesting question and I'll answer it two ways One is when guys - it was called the Leper Colony I would call them the Leper Colony that's what it was I had a platoon leader who was from Tennessee and he was a real Southerner and named Larry [Beetle?] - nice guy And Larry came to me at one point and he said "You know when you get a replacement in if you say well I need a rifleman." Who needs a rifleman? "Second Platoon needs a rifleman." So I just sent him Well Larry came to me one day and he said "Well you know I know you don't think about this but I'm the only white guy in the unit in my platoon." And all of a sudden I went whoah! And I started looking around and sure enough most of the Second Platoon - I think there were maybe one or two guys - the platoon sergeant was white - actually it was platoon leader was a Cherokee Indian and all of a sudden I saw that there was a potential problem So I just quietly started moving people around The other racial issue that came up was recently I was out in - two years ago or a year and a half ago? - two years ago I was down in Washington at a reunion and I was with one of our guys named Bill [Fong?] Bill was Chinese And I said to Bill because of my family association with the 442nd we got talking about Japanese-Americans in the Second World War with the 4-4-2 and I said "How as an Asian did you feel with all the dehumanizing that we do very well in the United States when we want to get angry at an enemy -" By the way it's common practice by everybody so it's not just an American trait OK? And he said you know - I said "How did you deal with that? I mean you're out in the field with some guy who's calling - using all those pejorative terms? How do you deal with that?" And Bill said "Lieutenant you got to remember you know they're all stupid people in the world." SY It still must have been hard AM Yeah so you don't. He said "Ninety percent of the time I was dealt with as an American and not as the fact that I was Chinese-American." And he said "Ten percent of the time they're stupid." SY Do you think there is a way to fight a war without that type of deh- (repeats herself louder) Do you think there is a way to fight a war without that type of dehumanization of the enemy? AM No I wish there were It's interesting because we've allowed it - it's become more apparent in this current situation with the Islamic war than it certainly was with Vietnam I mean I you know you got to realize like in Korea they had all the different - that all worked in Korea too Slope dank you know - SY Gook? AM Gook - the whole thing It's funny is that whenever they - and Charlie and of course whenever we got screwed badly and someone would say Charles' name it was a sign of respect - we would call him Charles - Charles has been up to his hole But this whole thing with the situation in Islamic thing I hear people talk and I go I cannot believe they talk the way they do And somebody wrote to me recently - an ultra-conservative person - who said "Well we all do it." No we all don't do it I'm afraid that's no that you just don't do that You don't - and he gave me all the lists of words that people use And I said no we don't use those words - you may use them but don't try and paint me with your brush SY Yeah Have you ever been tempted to go back to Vietnam - AM No SY - to visit? No? Interesting AM Not really It - I mean it's -have you seen pictures of the place? It's absolutely gorgeous SY I have yeah AM But no no I mean I've seen it I will say that I do go back to Korea and that - I've been back to Korea three times not up to where I was But I've been to Seoul three times and I mean the difference between Seoul - when I saw Seoul in 1968 I think the highest building in Seoul was eight stories Now it's - have you ever been to Seoul? SY No but I have a close - a couple of close friends who are living there AM I mean it's a very cosmopolitan city SY It is yeah I have to run to the bathroom So let's take a little break and then - and I'm also aware that you're probably getting tired - (audio break) AM Coming home? SY I was going to ask you about coming home Let me turn this back on AM Has this been basically what you wanted? SY This is great This is exactly what I want So let's talk about coming home and let's also talk about how the anti-war movement has been building up while you were in Vietnam So is this something that you hear - AM Are we on? SY Yeah we're on Is this something that you sort of had been hearing about in Vietnam? Or is it something you have time to think about? Is it something you - AM No We have time to think about that nonsense I think this anti-war movement - I think your generation is as fascinated with the anti-war movement as my generation was fascinated with - my mother - counterculture movement of the 1920s In other words if you weren't there doing the Charleston you really don't know how to do the Charleston My impression of the anti-war movement and don't make - don't mistake what I'm saying It was terribly important and it made a great - it made an enormous impact on this country I think it had some negative impact one of which was that the first thing Nixon did was get rid of the draft And he created a quote "all volunteer army" which in my mind means that we now have a very right-wing professional military which is too closely tied to the defense industry OK? When you look at 70% of the general officers who retired going to work for a defense contractor that seriously worries me especially when you get into this whole notion of honor and ethics And some general standing up and saying "I'm pitching you to buy an F-35 fighter but oh by the way I wouldn't consult you if I didn't think it was something we needed that was the best in the world because after all I did go to West Point where duty-honor-country means everything." That's bullshit If you're paying a guy $200000 a year to sell airplanes he's working for the $200000 - not for some ethics OK? That said you have to remember that the anti-war movement whether it was the University of Wisconsin or Princeton or Harvard or Kent State - they were a small fraction of the generation Most of these people people like my wife were trying to make a living they're trying to get through school they're trying to get on with their lives Now I have a number of friends of mine who were in the anti-war movement One of my closest friends who I lost contact with and I've never been able to re-connect went to Harvard married a girl whose father was a general in the Army they became - he became very heavily involved in the anti-war movement and it cost him his marriage because when he got his notice he went to Canada and she stayed My partner at a Magazine Services in New York was in Chicago throwing rocks and he was on a rock band And we have a picture that we used to send out to clients which had a picture of me in Vietnam and it has a picture of him in his rock band and it said "Magazine Services We can do it the easy way or the hard way." So the reality is I use- I have - I think a lot of these people in the anti-war movement including Jane Fonda they paid an enormous price with their families and with their friends I sat at dinner one time with a client and there were two people running down - not running the war down but they were sort of discussing the war and finally the more senior president of this ad agency piped up and said "How you know how can you talk this way in front of Angus?" And what I found out later is his son had deserted and gone to Canada and this guy was a veteran So here was a situation where a family had been just torn apart So the anti-war movement - and my feeling about Jane Fonda - everybody always gets upset about Jane is she wrote in her book and I have no reason not to believe her that the moment she sat down at that anti-aircraft gun she knew she'd made a mistake that she was being used Do I think that it changed her views on the war? No - Tom Hayden her husband - very heavily involved in the anti-war movement At Inc Magazine one of my closest friends was Bo [Browingham?] who was one of the leaders of the anti-war movement at Princeton And when Bo and I went to China together everybody said "Boy wait till those two guys get talking." It turns out we - Bo and I have been very very good friends I think Bo's argument and my argument -that people sat on the sidelines and did nothing They took no position and they allowed by the way Richard Nixon to carry that war on for another four and a half years all of which we conveniently forget SY Yeah So what was it like to come back home? What was it like to re-introduce you to- AM It's funny I'm glad you asked that There are two - I'll give you some three things that happened One was I was lucky and that - well I'll tell you the whole trip I got into- I got separated I was still in uniform obviously traveling on boarders And I came down - went down to see my sister in Phoenix from Fort McChord Air Force base up in Washington And I remember an airline stewardess being very solicitous in taking care of me and all that stuff and she was saying something to the effect of you know I said "Geez you don't have to do that you don't have to -" giving me free drinks and all this stuff She said "Believe me they're going to treat you like trash." And I remember on the trip being a layover in Chicago and there was this - I had this feeling by being in uniform that I was - that I had - that I was - there was something wrong with me that I was almost like the plague Now the nice thing was is that when I got home my parents were there with my brothers and my s- all the - the whole family all the signs and all that stuff - "Welcome Home" blah blah blah So I had a very nice welcome home from my family Now my mother and father - my mother is I think I told you was a writer and my father was an art director/business consultant - and my parents were very - my mother was so n- she was so fearful of the military that she wouldn't even come to my graduation at Norwich She didn't come SY Fearful in what way? AM Hmm? SY Fearful in what way? AM She had a brother - she had lost someone in the First World War her brother had fought with the 442nd in Italy in the Second World War I mean she'd seen what the war had done And so when I was graduating and I kind of pretty well knew where I was going and she just said "I can't handle it." She did not want to come to graduation I mean you're looking at my class they were all in uniform everybody was going into the Army She knew what the deal was So we got home and my parents used to have these wonderful dinners My parents had a very formal dining room It's a big house in Chappaqua And so we all sat around the table and I was still in uniform and my mother had built this - she was a fabulous cook and she said "Well tell me what do they all think of Premier Kỳ?" It was at that point - and because my parents were very active pro-political people - and my father didn't like the question because there had been a demonstration in Central Park a couple of months a couple of weeks before he said where literally people were carrying the flag of the country that was trying to kill your son You know literally he was upset about the question and all The way I framed it back to my mother was saying "Look What people don't really quite understand about that is that the average South Vietnamese person doesn't even know who he is." If a local dai uy who's a local Captain - is a thief they like to say "If you're working for the people they might be sympathetic to the government." But it's you know all politics is local whether it's here or there And to realize is what you don't understand is you live in an electronic age where you can worry about what your Congressman in Washington is doing They're worrying about what their local alderman is doing in their town And most Americans didn't quite understand that What I came to find out came to realize as I started to get around the country what was going on was less of the anti-war movement- but the anti-war movement was also morphing into the Black Panther movement SY I got to change batteries but keep talking We still got a little bit of juice AM Do you have some juice in there? SY I got another battery AM Oh you got another battery? Well let's just change your battery SY All right here we go Give me 30 seconds and we're recording again AM OK The other thing that was going on in this country as much as the anti-war movement was beginning to resonate in - throughout the country the civil rights movement had morphed into something more violent and that was the Black Panther movement And one of the - and I remember telling my mom and dad that - because my mother and father I mean we - I got to tell you the other one with my mother too About 20 or 30 days into being home and by this time my sisters and - my brothers and what all they're all gone home back to their own homes but they were - they asked me what changes have you seen? And I said - because I was going into the city every day - I was interviewing for jobs and I said "I smell racial violence." And I said this country is very very close to exploding into - I said there is so much racial tension in this country I could just feel it It was completely different the way it was from what I recall when I left almost two years ago And it was more certainly than what I was feeling in Vietnam Interestingly in Vietnam nobody really - in those situations you shouldn't really be worrying about skin pigment at that point You're worrying about whether you can trust the person on either side of you But that was the first thing that was so - that really struck me was how much tension there was in this country racially Because you asked this racial question about Vietnam - I'm saying it was - it was just as tense here but I don't think people because when you're something around something day in and day out you may not necessarily see it SY Yeah you can't smell it any more AM Yeah The other thing that happened that day coming home is my parents had this you know this large home And I guess to keep my mother busy she went through everything I owned And you got to realize I'd been away at school most of my life and so she'd taken all my school team pictures and stuff like that had them all framed And she had this room done in red white and blue and all this And pennants and all this stuff and I - I went upstairs when my mom and dad said "Well I want you to go and see your room." So we went upstairs to my room my mother was still downstairs My father got into the room with me and I looked around this room and you got to realize what I - the responsibility I'd just had and I looked at her I said who does she think I am? This is not - I'm not Leave It To Beaver And that's what a mother sees her child A mother never really sees her child as an adult I don't think And my father turned to me and said "Your mother put a lot of work in this Live with it for 30 days and then make sure you get yourself out of here." And it was good advice and he was right The other thing that struck me I went to work in the training program at McGraw-Hill And I was work- I was assigned to work on a weekly magazine and I - my job was to basically go call on all the cat-and-dog little classified accounts And it was all terribly disorganized and so I remember them handing me this box full of 3x5 cards and I was supposed to file them by category and then in each category alphabetically And I'm sitting there at my desk saying to myself - now this is what I did become an officer again I said are you kidding me man? I had clerks that did this stuff for me in the Army Yeah you're going from writing letters to people's parents to doing this kind of crap? Well this went on for a while and I - the resentment in me really started to build because there was a lot of other chicken shit jobs that they had me doing And one day I went down if you know New York - do you know New York at all? SY Oh yes I grew up in - AM New York City Charlie Brown's you know Charlie Brown's at Grand Central Station? It was a great saloon in Grand - SY Oh I've walked passed it but yeah AM Anyway I went down to Charlie Brown's one Friday - I went Thursday afternoon for lunch And I went down there with this other guy in the McGraw-Hill training program who was a former Marine officer And I was terribly upset Now he had never been overseas He had just done his time and gotten out And we started drinking and I had more - too much to drink And he finally said "Well you know if you're really pissed off go tell your boss." And that was the worst advice I could have gotten because I did it And I went in and I told my boss that this was a chicken shit assignment and I said I'm out of here And I was seriously at that point - and I had been thinking about actually going back into the service at that point I was so - I thought that what was going on in the real world was so unimportant And what happened was I came in to work the next day terrible hangover and sitting in my boss's office was the Vice President of Marketing for the company and "Come on and sit down." I sat down and he said "I understand we had a little bit of an incident yesterday." And I said yeah and he said "We really don't want to lose you." And I said well and he said "But you've also pissed some people off." And he said "Now this means I got to hide you I've got an assignment in Dallas and I've got an assignment in Chicago Which one do you want?" And I said "I've never been to Dallas." So I went to Dallas I met my wife and the rest is history SY Really? AM Yeah SY And how did you meet her? AM Blind date SY In Dallas? Is she from Dallas? AM South Dakota I met her on September 6th and we were married on December 20th SY That's fast When it works it works AM I was - I think it's fast We've been married almost 45 years SY Yeah? AM Yeah SY Yeah Had you considered staying in the Army? AM Yeah I mean I did and part of the reason I went to Norwich was primarily because I probably thought very seriously about it SY But were you fed up by the end of your tour? AM I think what - I'd thought about this I think probably in some respects doing two tours was a good idea because the first tour got me really ready for the second tour far bett- I was better prepared for my Vietnam tour than 90% of the lieutenants I met because most of these guys you know were doing something other than what they would be doing in Vietnam And I at least got a chance to get some hands-on experience On the back side of that - on the flip side of it was I also stayed too long I was there too long because when I came home I was mentally exhausted SY How did that manifest itself? AM I guess I just didn't want the responsibility any more I didn't want to worry about other people And it's interesting you should say that because when I was - you asked me at lunch about "Oh you resigned from McGraw-Hill and.?" Yeah and what it was why I resigned from McGraw-Hill was I mean there were a lot of reasons I talked about market share and whatnot but when I was managing a sales staff - and I was managing a sales staff of 17 people - behind Business Week I think we were the second or third largest magazine in the company It was a big magazine It was a big deal And if you covered an ad agency and I covered the client - it was what they called split credit on billings and all this stuff and I used to get these absolute chicken shit memos from sales reps worrying about whether they got 10% of the credit or 15% of the credit on a million dollar deal In other words they were so caught up in all of the little minutiae that when I resigned and when I was asked why are you quitting? Well I think Inc is a better opportunity and it's a growing opportunity but I'm also tired of all the bullshit I'm tired of being responsible for whether Johnny so-and-so gets a $500 commission check or whether he gets a $700 commission check on a guy who's making $85000 a year - and this by the way was 30 years ago Why don't you worry about going from $85000 to $105000 rather than worrying about $750? And that was the difference at Inc At Inc. it was you know you made your own - you pack your own parachute and you made your own bonus and interestingly enough financially I made out like a bandit I mean I made more money doing this working for somebody other than McGraw-Hill Yeah I would have gotten a gold watch and they used to give out a neat tie when you worked - had been there for 25 years But hell you can go to Brooks Brothers you can get one of those for 50 bucks SY Right yeah And you don't seem like you were a company man for either the military or McGraw-Hill You didn't want to be a company man AM Well yeah but you also have to respect company Now - I - you know I look at a guy like - Fran Brennan was a - Fran Brennan was the quintessential company guy I don't think there's anybody in the military that I could find that I would respect more than Fran Brennan because Fran Brennan was the kind of guy that led from the front A guy I spoke about a few minutes ago Gill Dorlan you know they handed him the Distinguished Service Cross which right behind the Medal of Honor is the second highest award they give out you know He also I mean he was the youngest Major in his class from West Point He quit too you know he tossed it out but he was a consummate professional You understand what I'm saying? The difference between being a professional and being a career guy SY I do AM You do SY I do understand that AM I know you do I know you do SY Yeah but yeah I think it's an important distinction AM The other thing and interestingly enough one of the things that McGraw-Hill had that it lost - and it lost about the time I was leaving was McGraw-Hill had a very serious mentoring system Albeit these guys started out as ad sales guys there were some very very bright guys At one point McGraw-Hill was made up primarily of Ivy Leaguers I mean you have the - well the McGraw family they were all Princeton people but there were a lot of Dartmouth guys a lot of Yale guys whatnot And it's funny because the guy I worked for in Dallas he was a petroleum engineer and you know I always sat with him He taught me how to really listen and learn about a client's business The guy I worked for in Cleveland the guy who ran the Cleveland office taught me about how to think strategically The guy I worked with in Chicago - I wasn't particularly crazy about him as a human being but he was one of the best public speakers I've ever been around so he really showed me a lot about standup presenting skills And the guy I worked for in New York taught me a lot about the minutiae of working inside of a large corporation And McGraw-Hill was very very good on all these mentoring steps and quite frankly I always felt a responsibility that when I had my own sales staff and I hired people that I treated them and taught them all that I could possibly teach them as sort of payback to what had been invested in me And I think that's gone today I don't think people in your generation - no one cares about anybody but [015526] (inaudible) I worry about me and they don't worry about whether you're making a contribution to somebody's career. SY I think that's true I think that culture is dead AM Well one of the other things that's gone too by the way - when I went through the McGraw-Hill training program and when you read my thing it sounds like I was only in it for 6 months Actually you're a probationary employee I think for 18 months Now that was their formal training program And we used to come back every quarter all the trainees They would recruit 15 trainees a year They would interview maybe 300 people And I was an experiment where they hired five Vietnam veterans and then they hired five guys out of industry and five guys out of grad school And they put you into this class SY Ooo! What was that like? AM Oh it was terrific and I will say the Vietnam guys did better than everybody else We were all much older we weren't older mentally - physically we were older mentally We were far more mature But we all did very very well in our careers SY And was it nice to have four other men who sort of knew what you'd just gone through? AM Well yeah they were all different experience One guy had been an F-105 pilot another guy had been a medic another guy had run Swift boats like John Kerry and another guy had been a navigator on a I think it was on a B-52 So we were all sort of varied experiences of the war None of them really common The guys we hired out of industry one of them is still one of my closest friends Andy [Gandon?] He was a bench chemist and worked for BF Goodrich and they hired him on Modern Plastics magazine And Andy said something very interesting He was up here last year He said "The reason why" he says "I think you did better than most of us is that we learned how to do our jobs and then we just kept doing that same job for 30 years You kept changing the job You kept changing the parameters of the job." SY Yeah you got bored AM Yeah that's right I get bored very easily And so if you don't change - if you can't change the game change the rules SY Yeah So something I asked Bill Bonk and he had some good answers about it that I want to make sure to ask you is so you know Norwich was founded on this idea of the citizen - (repeats herself louder) Norwich was founded on this idea of the citizen-soldier AM Yeah SY Is that something that you relate to? Is that something that - AM Oh absolutely I - and I think it's something this country has lost No that's not fair We haven't lost it We've lost it in the regular Army and the Marines and the Navy and the Air Force And interestingly enough the Air Force the Navy and the Marine Corps were always voluntary services The Army was always subject to draft And by the way so was the Marine Corps During the Vietnam War the Marines actually drafted A lot of people don't know that but they did And they also did in the Second World War I think when we took away the draft we took a piece out of that citizen-soldier equation One of my favorite photographs from World War II are two guys in the Navy And they're both on bunks And one's an officer the other one's an enlisted man The officer is reading a comic book and the enlisted man is reading Tolstoy I don't sense that you have a lot of guys reading Tolstoy who are enlisted any more I think you need - I think that if we had a draft - had we had a draft we would have been very reluctant to invade Iraq. SY So you're saying if a draft works correctly it's a corrective - AM Absolutely SY - to sort of hawkish or cowboy foreign policy AM Absolutely Absolutely SY That's interesting AM Well I mean the reality is is that if all of a sudden - I'm talking about a fair draft I'm not talking about six deferments But if all of a sudden Senator so-and-so's son was at risk or more importantly the son of his largest donor was at risk - my brother said something very interesting to - of a guy who owned our company and he actually had Inc Magazine He also had owned Sail Magazine where my brother worked My brother is a Marine fighter pilot And neither Don nor I are hawks We're both politically are pretty much on the same wavelength And one night they were all hunkered up and they were drinking and the guy who owned the magazine was talking about how he managed to get out of the draft and everybody was laughing at his stories And my brother just said "I'm just curious" and the guy looked at him and said "What are you curious about?" He said "Well somebody had to take your place Do you think he survived?" If we had a true citizen-soldiery that we keep talking about it would have been - it would be based on a fair and equitable draft Now on the other side of it one of the things that people like Ford and Sullivan who had a tremendous influence on it and for whom I have a great respect - he and there's a guy by the name of Vuono and General Meyer- these guys were Chiefs of Staff of the Army When they were put into this situation of creating an all-volunteer army they built a model which depended upon the National Guard Now what you haven't asked is and you wouldn't know to I got called back twice SY Did you really? AM Oh yeah to work with the National Guard And I have to tell you that was a joke and an experience I mean to the point where it was almost insulting how bad they were But I was also in a meeting where - with a battalion of the Louisiana National Guard with the battalion commander - this is 1971 the war is still going on - and I'm quote an "advisory" with several other former officers from Vietnam And this battalion commander announces to the battalion "I know why you're all National Guard You're here to avoid the war in Vietnam." And I think he used the word "illegal" war in Vietnam or "immoral" war And everybody - the guys who'd been in Vietnam we all looked at each other saying what the hell is going on? Now we've gone from that - then I was with the New York National Guard and these guys were a bunch of stockbrokers And you know one guy asked me "Say Lieutenant can I have your Jeep? I need to go in town to call." I'm going wait a second you know We didn't get a chance in Vietnam to say hey listen hold on to the war I got to go make a phone call I got to call my broker I will say the National Guard has done a superb job You know they picked up the slack But yeah I think Norwich has an important role playing that I think unfortunately it may be losing it There's so many of these kids now who are going to Norwich with the idea they're going to make a career of the military I don't think in my class there were that many I think there were oh I think there were probably 12 or 15 guys in my class who wound up staying in the military that spent their whole career in the military. SY Yeah I think that is I think that is different I think there is a new more career (crosstalk inaudible) [020343] - AM We had a lot of colonels in my class both lieutenant colonels and a couple of full colonels I mean let's see Johnny [Otis?] Bill [Bell?] there was one or two others that were full colonels in my class SY So I'm flagging a little bit One last question I think is important because most people don't know about long-term health repercussions of Vietnam Could you talk about that? About the long-term health effects - even though you weren't wounded - the long-term health effects of having survived? AM Well I think that - well I think that yeah I have - I have maybe 40% of my hearing I have arthritis which is directly attributed to Vietnam And I've had two hip replacements I think the other thing that we - we lose sight of the fact you know there's always - in every unit there's always a wise ass no they're dozens of wise asses believe me and they're very smart kids And that's what I always loved about American GIs is they are always very very funny and they're smart They have a language of their own They just - there's a - Hemingway wrote a wonderful book during the Second World War about the language and how the language of the GIs and their humor is just incredible But it's also very black very dark And I remember we had lost a kid and we were waiting to evacuate his remains and this wise ass said something to the effect "Well that cost us another quarter of a million dollars." And I went you know and of course at that point I was you know kind of upset and I said "What do you mean?" And he said "Well look at it this way Lieutenant He's married he had a child and he started going through all the benefits." And he said "By the time we're through"- now this is 1968 "that's going to cost the United States government another quarter of a million dollars." Now fast forward to your 2015 and we look at - now I go to the VA hospitals on a pre- at least a couple of times a year and you walk in and you take a look at these broken up bodies and you realize that every time you send a kid out there and he comes back with a leg missing or an arm missing it's going to cost the United States taxpayers And I hate to put it in those kind of cold-blooded terms but I don't think we even think about those kinds of things By the way I will say that despite all the bad press about the VA I think the VA has done a pretty good job at least here in Maine I also know - I talked to my cardiologist who went to Harvard Medical School and I asked him what he thought of the VA and he said that when he was going to Harvard he used to go over to the VA And he said "You walk down the VA and you would see world-class doctors from Harvard Medical School Boston College Medical School." We're going to be on Friday with some friends of ours whose daughter was a cancer - is now a cancer research specialist All of her training came through the VA So I understand the sort of wonderful political footballs that get tossed out there about the VA and how bad it is or how incompetent it is or what a waste it is But you want to think about our system by comparison to the Russian system Imagine what happened in the Soviet Union when it collapsed in 1990 about the time the millions -I don't mean the hundreds of thousands but the millions of Soviet soldiers that went through the Second World War with what they had to do what do you think they got out of the deal? Or think about the VA system that must be going on in a place like Vietnam? It's not - yeah we have problems but by comparison - SY I think it also depends on who you are when you access the system I interviewed a Norwich alumni who - alum who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and had some head injuries and PTSD And he had a lot of trouble accessing resources because I think the VA is better with broken bones and concrete things than they are with psychological types of injuries He had a hard time getting resources AM Be careful be careful Let me tell you - it's funny you should - let's - that's a good question to ask but before you make that - come to that conclusion think about this Who do you think the hearing people in the world are? SY The best what? AM Hearing SY I don't know AM VA Why? How come? They got more of it Who do you think got the best burn research in the world? SY Right I mean it's a huge organization yeah AM OK in other words I would say the VA is probably doing a better job with PTSD and I don't know than the Defense Department is doing with IEDs The reality is is that and I will - before you leave I'll show you some photographs of what it looks like when an armored personnel carrier hits a 2000-pound bomb SY Actually let's look at those photographs now Maybe we can look at them while we're on tape? AM Here I can put up - put this on you want to leave this one? SY Yeah Let's leave it on because - AM Yeah we'll do this I got it right here SY Yeah Great AM But what I'm saying what I'm saying is that for - what's his name? - our friend Donald Rumsfeld to start talking about well you go to war with the army that you got - now let me see if I can find it That'll make it easier for you to. You know Donald Rumsfeld wants to say we go to war with the army that you got yeah well we had - this is what an armored personnel carrier looks like after it's been hit SY Hmm AM That's a hole in the ground SY Wow where is this? AM This is in the Quế Sơn Valley SY And do you remember the particular hit? AM Thirteen people were on that vehicle SY That's the story you were telling me about the 13 people - AM Thirteen people SY - including the close friend of yours AM Uh no he was killed later on he was killed about oh four or five days later Now there were 13 boys on that But that's my point is that the IED mine problem was there in 1968 and all of a sudden we had to go out and create new vehicles I don't know what they call them now but you know there's a whole new family of vehicles we had to create when we were crea- after going through this kind of nonsense did we think that IEDs and mines were going to go away? SY Yeah I don't know. AM No it's a very effective weapon That happens to be a mine that we dug up That's a small anti-personnel mine Those are Punji sticks SY Yeah we talked about those And what beach is that - do you know? AM Yeah this was taken out west of LZ Baldy and this actually was taken during a what - this became a firefight actually And you can see we just landed infantry And the sand out there was just like it was like flour SY It looks like snow AM It does look like snow And this is the helicopters coming in SY Do you remember that guy? AM Huh? SY Do you remember that guy? AM Yeah that's Sergeant [Pattengill?] That's Sergeant Patty He became a sergeant major terrific guy And that guy became a Catholic priest SY That's the guy who became a priest? AM Yep And that guy became a - went back to college and became a computer programmer He's got a masters degree in information systems and is a software developer has his own software firm And then this is the last day I was in - that's the whole unit lined up SY To say goodbye to you? AM Yep And then we were - this guy became an attorney This fellow right here is a South Vietnamese He actually had been a Vietcong He pulled us out of a minefield and I am awarding him the Bronze Star SY Really? Right here you're awarding him the Bronze Star That's what you're doing right in this picture? AM Yeah And I don't remember that guy And then that's me SY Yeah Same mustache! AM Huh? SY It looked like you with the mustache in the picture AM Yeah SY He has that same mustache AM This is a - SY Let's talk about that painting AM Well the painting - you know the story behind it? It's now in the Vietnam Veterans Museum in Chicago And I had always wanted to do a painting on Vietnam And what I appreciate most about the painting was a couple of things one is I actually went to Chicago and actually saw it hanging in the museum And I have to tell you maybe the biggest trip in the world for any painter is to actually go to a real museum and this is a - this is not a bunch of guys a bunch of old hippies - this is a real museum I mean it's spectacular It was a great facility then it's now even more spectacular So it was a big deal to see it The second thing is that there were two things I wanted to paint I wanted to paint one like this so these guys sort of hanging out You can see there C-ration cans and he's sleeping these two guys are reading a newspaper there's some beer cans one guy is on watch - because 90% 95% of Vietnam was all about boredom And I don't think enough people talk about that It's very very very boring because you're - and then of course the other 5% is stark terror Anyway when I sent this Chicago paint- painting to Chicago I went out to see it I was up on the third floor and one of the curators came up to me She said "Is this your painting?" I said yeah And she said "I want you to know we bring groups in here And the children love this painting This one always gets -" And I said "Really?" I said "How is that? Why is that?" And she said "Because all the other ones are violent and this one isn't." The other painting I wanted to do and I started it and I never finished it is you can see all these rice paddies in these dikes People were - these were all built by hand OK they were all - you've seen pictures of rice paddy docks? And it always - and you can see what happens when you run your tread over the dikes is it - actually it smashes those And I wanted to do a painting of the track going through the rice paddies and the malt spilling out and losing their water and all that stuff And I was going to call the thing "Collateral Damage" because we don't really think about how much damage we created just in the - to their - to the local agrarian environment SY Yeah So why didn't you finish it? Did you get stuck? AM Yeah I mean a lot of times you don't finish paintings I mean sometimes I work - I mean this one if I had to do it again I'd do it again And I - SY Was there - you - so what about this image felt so important to you? Because you usually paint from photographs and this isn't from a photograph AM No This is from memory SY So you remember this moment? Or is it a combination? AM Not particularly I created a moment I created a moment and of course I know the vehicle well enough that I can paint the vehicle in my sleep SY Yeah Are there other moments in Vietnam - images - that you want to put on the canvas? AM Yeah there is one I don't think I've got a photo- I used to have a photograph of it And I - whenever I thought about Vietnam it was - I can't find it - that we were up on a top of a hill and I remember staring down - in fact we were on top of that hill right there And I was staring down when I took the photograph a machine gun And I remember just - I remember the image of staring down that machine gun and it just has always stayed with me SY And what was on the other side? What did you see? AM Hmm? SY What did you see? You're staring through a machine gun? AM Well I was just staring behind a machine gun And I remember taking a photograph of it I'm just looking at an open field but that image just somehow always resonated with me SY Is it the contrast of sort of the beautiful open field and looking down a machine gun? AM Perhaps I mean I - you know it's tough to read what goes through your mind I mean you know it's funny I talked about coming - going to Vietnam - coming to V-coming home Going to Vietnam was interesting too because most of the guys they all like Bill Bonk and people like that they all would go to McChord Air Force base and they would get on a transport and they'd fly you know there would be a bus that would pick them up at I guess they were going to Tân Sơn Nhất? And you know they were all you know so they just. Not me I had to go to Japan see I was coming out of Japan So I went and picked up my orders and I was on Air Vietnam not on military flight I was just on a bigger civilian flight The government paid for it And I remember I get on this airplane and it was all these businessmen and they were all in their blue you know blue bla- you know blue pin-striped grey flannel suits or whatever they wore They all looked like a bunch of commuters going some place and here I am in uniform and I'm going to war SY Right you felt like you were - AM And we're all going to the same place SY You felt like you were in Metro North but instead you were - AM Yeah I mean I felt like I was on a commuter line and then I remember we landed We didn't land at Tân Sơn we landed at Saigon Airport which was whatever the big airport was We didn't land at a military airport We landed at a civilian airport which is like you know landing at Westchester County Airport So I get out and it was funny because all these guys you know scurry to get out and I said "I'm going to be here for a year So I'm just going to take my time." And I remember clearing the hatch and walking across the runway and thinking "Well I haven't been shot yet So far so good." And then there was a reception desk for it just said "incoming military personnel" and so I walked over and I handed the guy my orders And he said "Well we'll take you over to Long Bình" and - which is the replacement center And I said fine So they put me on this bus with a couple of other guys and I noticed that there was wire on all the windows and I realized that's so that they don't throw hand grenades into the bus - these people are serious And of course then I got over to Long Bình and I remember going into the officers' club and sitting next to a guy who had gone to Harvard It turned out he'd gone to Harvard He was going home And I said "Really?" He said "Yeah." And he said "Where you going?" I said "Oh I'm going up north." And he said "Well how do you feel?" And I said "Well I think I can handle most of it but God I hate snakes I really hate snakes." The guy said "Don't worry about it." He says "I've been here a year I haven't seen a snake I've been in the bush most of the year." He said "I have not seen a stinking snake." I'm going to tell you I saw every snake this guy never saw I must have seen dozens of snakes - God I hate them I really hate snakes (laughs) OK really it's almost like - what was that thing? Indiana Jones and all he hated is snakes live sa- (laughs) SY Here are your snakes yeah yeah AM But - and so it was that - my welcome to Vietnam was kind of you know it was really like landing in a commuter flight and it was you know going into war SY How surreal AM So it was kind of interesting SY It was a very surreal moment Whew! AM Anything else? SY I'm losing steam AM All right SY I got a drive ahead of me AM OK SY Do you have any last thoughts? This was wonderful AM No I you know I think - don't mistake what you might perceive as my liberal - being fairly liberal as a criticism of the job I think people did I think the kids who certainly in the military it's very very tough job And I - the experience has been important to me because I know I have a - who knows but I have an idea of how difficult their job is I don't have any idea how difficult the job is today but I sense how difficult the job is and I have nothing more but the utmost respect for them It's a very very tough challenging life By the way one of the best honors that I've gotten is there was a book - I think I've told - maybe I didn't tell you There's a book written about our unit and my name came up a couple of times And about three years ago four years ago the unit had morphed up to a full squadron full battalion and they were going to Iraq And so they called me and asked me if I would come out and speak to their young officers about the pressure of leading as a junior officer And I have to tell you that was a tremendous honor to be asked to - I flew to Alaska and I visited with these guys And then they asked me to stay that Saturday night to speak to the entire group at their regimental mess And I started talking about how important that unit was to me personally and quite frankly how much I wish I was going with them I remember when the first Iraq war broke out and when those kids crossed that burn that - breaking into Kuwait and I'm not a drinker I mean I did when I was younger but I don't drink normally I have a glass of wine at night I guess so I guess I am a drinker now But then I really just did not drink at all And I remember my wife was not home and they were describing them going through that burn and I went over and opened a bottle of wine and drank the whole bottle of wine because I had this sense of understanding - or at least I think I understood what they were going to be going through And I just - it just - I wanted to be numb I didn't want to imagine what these poor kids were going to go through And it's how I feel today I'm so terrified about this whole thing with Iran getting - spinning out of control And not because it makes any sense but for political expedience It's nuts It really is I don't know Any other questions? SY I don't think so I don't think so When you say - when you talk about wanting to go to war with them - I guess I do have another question - is it because you feel like you want to be supporting them through what they're going to struggle through? Is it because you miss the camaraderie? Is it because you miss that sense of purpose? Is it because you feel a sense of duty? What is it exactly? AM Oh I think it's a combination of all of that You know these were the best friends I ever had I mean I - it's funny my father said to me when I gra- when I went to Norwich he said that these would be the best friends you'll ever have And in part he's cor-he was right But it's interesting it took me four years to form a bond that it took me only a year to form with a lot of these kids in Vietnam I'll also say something else about Norwich which I think is important to be said And I don't think having not gone to Norwich you can't understand this and I'm not even sure the civilian students at Norwich can understand it My older brother went to Georgetown and when I moved back to New England he lived in Marblehead And so I would get him out to a hockey game or a Norwich hockey game or what have you And then at one point I took him up to Norwich - and he's a very bright I mean very very smart guy And I remember him you know looking around at Norwich and finally sort of saying he said "You know I've always sort of envied the relationship you had with both the school and with your classmates." He said "So much so that I finally went back to Georgetown for my class reunion and realized how much I hated the place." You - I don't think kids understand how close the relationships are Does that come through still? SY Yes that does come through still Without a doubt that comes through still. AM Yeah and I think you see this by the way at the service academies and that's the only place - you may see it at a small Catholic school like you know where the Jesuits are running it you know like a place like - is it Holy Cross? SY It is Holy Cross AM Is it Holy Cross Jesuit? SY Holy Cross Jesuit yeah AM But if you go to a Jesuit school perhaps you might see it But certainly at Annapolis and Norwich VMI - they have this same - I mean I can remember my brother's best friend in the Marine Corps was a VMI guy When he heard I went to Norwich "How come he's not going to VMI?" "Well you know" my brother said "they're all the same quite frankly." (laughs) So OK? Anything else? SY I think we've covered you know most of the known universe in this interview We talked about a lot AM Are we off now? SY Let me turn - END OF AUDIO FILE

Richard Richards ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 81p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Richard Richards Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 7 August 2012 13 August 2012 24 September 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Richard Richards Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 7 August 2012 13 August 2012 24 September 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Richards, Richard, an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 7 and 13 August 2012 and 24 September 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Richard Richards October 2012 1 Abstract: Richard "Dick" Richards, WSU alum, attorney, author and Republican Party National Committee Chairman (1981), grew up in Ogden, Utah and became involved with politics as a young man in high school. Richard is now retired and resides in South Ogden, Utah after spending most of his political career in Washington D.C. He sat down with Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University to discuss his life growing up in Ogden, his family, education, career and devotion to Weber State University. Richard endowed the "Richard Richards Institute of Politics and Ethics" at Weber State University which awards scholarships to high school students, and currently serves on the board. He and his wife, Annette Bott Richards, have five children. ROH: Today we are beginning an oral history with Richard Richards in his home in South Ogden, Utah. My name is Rebecca Ory Hernandez. Why don't we go ahead with you just stating your name and where this interview is being held? RR: My name is Richard Richards, most people call me Dick. I'm in my home at 5273 Daybreak in South Ogden. I'm prepared to discuss my early history with Rebecca and I look forward to it. ROH: When and where were you born? RR: I was born in Ogden at the old Dee Hospital on May 14, 1932. Nearly all my brothers and sisters were born at the same hospital and had the same doctor, but that was a long time ago. The hospital is now gone. ROH: Where did you grow up? 2 RR: I grew up in South Ogden. I lived in Ogden until I was about 12 years old, and then moved to South Ogden and lived here until I was drafted into the army in 1952. ROH: What part of South Ogden? RR: My first home in South Ogden was 3999 Norton Avenue. That's just next to 40th Street and 40th Street was the dividing line between Ogden and South Ogden. My father bought that home during the war. It was a 1,000 square foot home and I had seven sisters and a brother. So, 11 of us lived in this 1,000 square foot home. There were a couple of bedrooms in the basement that accommodated us, but 11 people in that small home. I can't even remember how we ate dinner. There's no way we could have eaten at the same time because the kitchen wasn't that big. I have no recollection of how exactly we operated in the home, but we lived there for several years. ROH: Where did you fall in the family line-up of children? RR: My brother was the oldest child and I was next to him about a year and a half later. All seven girls came after me. Four of them were born in the month of May one year apart, so the family grew rapidly and it was all girls after my brother and me. ROH: I can't imagine having that many children under one roof. RR: I don't know how we did it. I really don't. I had one sister that was really fastidious and she needed the bathroom for a long time. We agreed that she could have 3 the bathroom for an hour starting at six o'clock in the morning. After that the family had it. ROH: Are all of your siblings still around? RR: One of them passed away. That's the one I was talking about. All of the others are scattered around from California, Idaho, Oregon and I have two sisters living in the Ogden area. ROH: Do you stay in touch with them? RR: We have family reunions. We just had one at Park City in July. We had 123 family members there. We've been doing this for about 20 years and we have not had one death in the family or one child born with severe disabilities out of all 153 of us. We have been a blessed group. We have MBA's, Ph.D's, and a couple of doctors. We've got some pretty good children and grandchildren. My father came from the coal mining camps of Utah when he was in the tenth grade. He didn't graduate from high school. He was tired of living in the coal mines and said, "I'm not going to be a miner, I'm getting out of here." He went up to Salt Lake and got a job helping a sign painting company called Bird and Jex Company. Later on, he decided he didn't want to work for them and he set up his own company here in Ogden. His first shop was no bigger than this living room, but he's the guy that brought us out of the coal mines. ROH: What was the name of the sign shop? 4 RR: Richards Sign Company. That was a long time ago, but that business still carries the name. It's gone through three generations. My father had a stroke many years ago and as a result he couldn't work so he sold his business to a guy by the name of Derek Warner. He ran it for some period of time, then he retired and gave it to his son. His son retired and now it's the next generation working the Richards Sign Company. The company was so well respected that no matter who owned it, they wanted to keep the name. It's still there on Grand Avenue and a bustling business, but it's different. They don't even have a paint brush down there anymore because everything is done by computer. When my dad sold it, we did it all by hand. ROH: Did you learn how to paint signs as well? RR: I did and I earned my living painting signs while I was in law school. Even after I graduated and I was practicing law, the income was so meager that at night I painted signs to make some money to take care of my family. I always hoped that potential clients didn't see me painting signs or they'd wonder about my ability as a lawyer. ROH: That's interesting. What about your mother? RR: My mother lived in Ogden. She met my father in a church activity and her father was a railroader and they lived down on Grant Avenue. My mother did graduate from high school and I don't know if she worked before they were married. ROH: Do you recall which high school she graduated from? 5 RR: It would have been Ogden High School because that's the only one there was. ROH: Okay. They met at a church activity, but can you be more specific? RR: Apparently, it was a Golden Green Ball, a dance of some kind where my father met my mother or shortly after because they participated in the dance and won a prize. A great uncle of mine introduced them. AR: What I understand is that she had caught his eye and she was walking along the street and he pulled over and said, "Could I have a date?" She said, "Yes, if you'll go to church with me." They did enter a contest with the Golden Green Ball and they won. ROH: Did you inherit their love of dancing? RR: No. I don't' dance. ROH: I'm surprised. I thought all politicians liked to dance. AR: He's got a son that dances. ROH: What were some of the things you did as a young person? RR: Before we moved out to South Ogden, I lived on Monroe and we played Kick-the- Can and all kinds of games in the streets. We didn't have television of course. We didn't pay too much attention to radio so we played outside. We played with each other. ROH: Where did you go to school? 6 RR: I went to school first at Quincy for the first grade and so on. Later on, I went to Madison. I was at Madison for a while, then my family went to South Ogden and I went to Riverdale Junior High School. After Riverdale I went to Weber High School. ROH: So you lived on Monroe for a little while? RR: Yes on 26th and Monroe. The family lived there, but as the family grew and more kids were born in the family we had to find a bigger place and my dad bought a house in South Ogden during the war for about $5,000. The house we lived in on Monroe is now a little parking lot for a neighbor. There's nothing there, but it was a very small yard and very small house. ROH: Are there any memories that you have from being at Quincy or Madison that you'd like to share? RR: Not at Qunicy, but when I moved to Madison, I was the newcomer and they had to see whether I was tough enough to be in that environment. They picked fights with me and forced me to fight. I wasn't going to fight. Kids carried me over to the park across the street and I was to fight with a guy and I beat him up, so I was successful there. Then, I had to try one more and I got in a fist fight during art class. The teacher came down, banged our heads together and stopped us. I punched the guy in the nose and his nose was bleeding. I was crying and I didn't want to fight. The teacher came down and knocked our heads together. The guy I was fighting hauled off and punched her and knocked her down. He was expelled from school. They didn't do anything to me because they knew I didn't 7 want to fight with this guy and that was apparent. He was kind of a bully and it was good. I passed the test fighting those two guys and from then on I was accepted. ROH: I just can't imagine that. Annette said she had something she wanted to share. AR: An interesting thing, I was at Quincy School and I was standing over by the water fountain. His brother, Jim, was a year older than me and Dick was a year younger than me. I remember thinking, "Oh, that's Jimmy Richard's little brother." He was running around. That was our first meeting and then he went to Madison and I continued on at Quincy. ROH: Okay. Were there any favorite subjects that stood out to you at that time as a young boy? RR: I liked the art classes, but we didn't have many of them until I went to high school. I was not a good student. I was a troublemaker and I just got by as far as the academics were concerned. There was always trouble, and a lot of it was my fault. I remember when I went to Riverdale Junior High School we rode the bus from South Ogden out to Riverdale and there was a kid in the neighborhood by the name of Tommy James. Tommy crowded in front of us in line for the bus. As I walked past him he took a seat up front and I hauled off and smacked him in the back of the head. When we got to Riverdale I chased him down and picked a fight with him and he just beat the hell out of me. That was the only time I was ever really beat up. He just kept pounding me, the big tall guy with long arms and I would be swinging at him and I'd be missing him by about four of five inches. 8 Incidentally, the principal came down and grabbed us and took us up to the principal's office. He said he was going to give us the board of education. He had a board that he used to paddle kids with and the board had holes in it so he could get a good swift whack. He asked what happened and I owned up. I said, "I picked the fight, it's my fault." I guess that impressed him and he said, "Well, get going and get back to class and I don't want any more of this." ROH: In junior high, Did you have any particular subject that you were fond of? RR: No, I was just getting by doing what I could do. ROH: Being a kid. RR: We rode the bus and I always rose a rumpus on the bus, so the driver kicked me out and said, "You're going to walk home." I said, "Okay." Instead of walking home I went around to the back of the bus and climbed in the window on the side he couldn't see. I rode in the bus with him until we got to Ogden and we got to the bus stop. I jumped out the window and ran up front and said, "Haha Clink, I beat you." He felt bad that he was going to make me walk and before he left he said, "Hey where's the Richards kid, I was only joking I wasn't going to make him walk." I played a joke on Clink. Incidentally, I've had an occasion to work with the Fernilius' again in my business. When we get to that I'll tell you. ROH: You went to Weber High. Tell me about that experience. RR: Well, I shaped up. ROH: Did your parents have a car growing up? 9 RR: Yes. In fact, I remember when I was six years old my brother and I had our tonsils taken out. We went to the doctor's office in the old First Security Bank building and had our tonsils removed. My father picked us up in his brand new Pontiac car. He paid $600 and got a beautiful blue Pontiac car. That's the first car I can remember my folks had. ROH: When you were young, do you remember where you went shopping for new supplies and clothes and things like that? RR: As a kid, I didn't do that. I don't remember that. As I grew up a little bit I remember being in town because I would go to the paramount theater that had the Popeye club. On Saturdays, they'd have Popeye and a series of the Lone Ranger or something and I remember going to town for that. Other than that, I don't remember going to town. ROH: In town are you talking about Ogden? RR: Yes, I'm still talking about Ogden. These were younger years. ROH: Is this the 25th Street area? RR: Yes. Actually there were several theaters in town at that time. There was an Orpheum, a Colonial, Lyseum, The Egyptian, and the Paramount. That's five theaters. Most of the kids went to the Paramount because that had the Popeye Club and the series. Movies cost about a dime and I would work around the yard and I'd get a dime or 25 cents and I was able to go to the movies. ROH: Okay, so we're going to go back to high school now. 10 RR: Before high school, let me talk about Riverdale Junior High School because that was really a turning point for me. That was a rough school. When I went there I was in the 7th and 8th grades and we were rough on teachers there. We drove a couple of teachers out of the room crying. There were several of us that were involved in this kind of stuff. ROH: How did you do that? RR: Just by not paying attention or throwing spit balls or whatever. We drove a couple of substitute teachers out of there. We were upstairs in a room that was called Idaho because it was kind of shaped like Idaho. My friend and I were in the back of the room raising the devil and there were two kids in the middle of the room that were raising Cain and the teacher came in and he just stood there with his arms folded for a few minutes waiting for everybody to shut up. They didn't shut up so he walked down the aisle and gave each of these kids a karate chop on the side of the head and whacked them in the kidney and knocked both of them out. Both of the kids fell with their faces on the desk and my friends and I shut up. That cured us. He really knocked the two kids out. One of the kids' families sued him because when he hit him in the kidneys he bruised him. This teacher didn't say anything and I don't know what happened to him, but I didn't see him again. That was sort of a turning point for a lot of us. After I left junior high school and went to Weber I shaped up. It was a 180 degree change for me. ROH: How many kids were in your class in junior high? RR: I would say there were 20 or something like that. 11 ROH: That was a good-sized class. Is there anything else from junior high that you can recall? What was your favorite part about being in school? RR: Recess. I remember I was supposed to be in arithmetic class, but before the class started I went down to the shop. There was nobody in there except a few kids. The teacher wasn't there and I had never had any experience with some of these tools like the buzz saw. I picked up a chunk of wood and I was going to cut it, but I put it in the wrong way in the saw. It threw the wood and knocked the window out of the class. It would have killed a kid if it hit him. I didn't know what I was doing. I got out of there and sneaked into my arithmetic class by crawling on my hands and knees to the desk so the teacher wouldn't see me coming in. It was a funny school, I had a friend called Toshi Shiba and he went around the junior high school with a water gun and he would shoot the light bulbs and it would pop them. In those days they didn't have a chandelier glass over them, they just had a globe. My friend went around shooting those things and the shop teacher caught him and grabbed him and shook him up and said, "I never did like you Japs anyway." Nothing ever happened as a result of that, but today that would be a disaster. ROH: It sounds like you were a bit precocious. RR: I was not a good little boy. I never did anything really bad, but I did a lot of things that were border line. ROH: Did your parents ever get called to school? 12 RR: No, and I never told them when I had a couple of teachers assault me in junior high school. One guy was a music teacher and he was in the auditorium with the music class and a kid in that class had stolen my baseball mitt. I spotted it because it had my name on it. He had used a leather puncher to punch holes in it so that my name would not be visible, but I saw it anyway. I went into the class and confronted the kid about the mitt. The teacher said, "You get out of here." I said, "I'm not going until I get my mitt." He came down and grabbed me by the shirt and took me out in the hall and he was slapping me on the side of the face front-hand and back-hand. He hit me several times, but I never told my parents about that. You know, that just happened. It was not uncommon in the schools for a teacher to whack a kid. ROH: That is true. Moving on to high school at Weber High, where was Weber High? RR: Weber High School was on 12th and Washington Blvd. We had to take a bus from home to school. When I got into high school I really settled down. It was a major change in my life. I was elected sophomore class president when I went out there. Right out of this junior high school environment to the high school and we had kids from other junior high schools come in from Eden and Huntsville. I don't know the circumstances, but I was elected sophomore class president. ROH: You don't recall running for president? RR: No, I don't recall any of that except that I was elected and I was in a sign painting class and I painted some signs for sophomore assemblies. I misspelled the word "sophomore." They said, "It's got an "o" in it." 13 ROH: You said you got more serious in high school. What were your academics like? RR: I was a good student. It was the beginning of a new life for me. AR: One of the teachers said that Dick was the worst and best student that she ever had. ROH: Did you go to high school together? AR: No, I went to Ogden High School. ROH: Did you have a favorite subject in high school? RR: Yes, I liked the debate class and I participated in the debates and extemporaneous competitions and I did well. So, I did a lot of it. It's interesting because the debate teacher at Weber High School was the same principal that dragged me up to the principal's office when I was at Riverdale. ROH: Is that right? He moved from the other school to that school. He must have had some kind of impact on you. Who were your friends in high school? RR: I had several that lived out here in South Ogden like, George Palmer, Carl Hassel and Bud Reed. I had a lot of friends. We did things in a group out here. Nobody played alone. ROH: What were some of the things you were involved in other than debate? Were you involved in any clubs or activities? RR: No, because I worked after school. Instead of taking the school bus, I would take the city bus and go from 12th Street down to my dad's shop and work after 14 school. I didn't have any time for any of the athletics. I did win the intramural boxing championship for my weight when I was in high school. I didn't play football, basketball, or baseball or anything. Those intramurals took place within the classroom for the most part. ROH: So you continued to fight in high school. You got into boxing? RR: Not a lot, but we had an intramurals program in boxing and I won that in my class. I boxed with the kids that were in the other class. I also wrestled. I met another kid in the other class wrestling, I got down on the mat like you're supposed to and he was over me and the referee said, "Go!" He pinned me so fast I didn't even know what I was doing. I was out of that competition in 15 seconds, just as long as it took for the referee to count me out. This kid was a skinny kid with a glass eye and he went on to win the state championship in his weight a couple of years. He was a very good wrestler. I think his name was Garcia. ROH: So, if you ran for sophomore class president, you were interested in politics at that time. RR: Yes, and that is one of the things that I gravitated toward was the speech class and the debate and that sort of thing. About that time I had developed my philosophy as a Republican. One of my debate partners was a democrat, one that I called the yellow dog democrat. He would rather vote for a yellow dog than a Republican and that's still his philosophy. My father talked politics to us at the dinner table. He talked about a conservative writer at that time called Westbrook 15 Pegler. Pegler was a conservative and he hated the Roosevelts. Most of his column was anti-Franklin and Eleanor and my dad talked about that. There were also some things happening in our life that got me to be a conservative. During that time when we were growing up, we had a coal furnace. The coal man would come to your house, open the coal chute and empty the coal out in the basement. John L. Lewis was the head of the coal miners' union and he called a strike. When he called a strike, we couldn't get coal and everybody complained about that. Even my grandmother and my father complained about it. My father said, "I'm not going to be at the mercy of John L Lewis," and he changed the coal furnace to a gas furnace. John L. Lewis was really big at that time. ROH: When was this? RR: I would say in the early 1940's. Coal mining was a big deal. My grandfather was a coal miner and he still lived down in Carbon County. Coal miners liked John L. Lewis because he got the wages up. He forced people to pay more and if they weren't willing to do that he would call a strike and limit the coal production. My dad talked about that a lot at the dinner table and that had an influence on me. ROH: Who was your friend that was the person who would vote for anyone but a Republican? RR: Jerry Hatch. He was my debate partner. His dad was in the state legislator as a democrat. Jerry always was a democrat. He never changed. He is still a democrat. 16 ROH: When you were in high school did you realize that you wanted to go to college at that point? RR: Yes. In fact, I wanted to be a lawyer at that time and when I wrote my name on the book just to identify it as my book I would write, "Richard Richards Esquire." AR: I've got a page out of something when he was the student of the year and he tells what he wants to do in the future. RR: When I was a senior in high school, I was chosen to give the Valedictory speech. I was not the Valedictorian, but I was chosen to give that speech at the graduation. ROH: So you ran for president and got interested in debate, how did that come about? Were you listening to the radio at that point or did you hear other people speak that influenced you? RR: We listened to the radio and read the newspaper. We always had newspapers and I even take four newspapers here now. I spend a couple hours every day reading the Wall Street Journal and the Investor's Business Daily, The Standard, and Deseret News. ROH: That's incredible. Did your dad take a lot of newspapers too at your house? RR: I don't know how many he took, but I know we took some. ROH: I was just trying to find out where the influence of the debate would have come from because you were interested in both battling physically and verbally so I find that fascinating. 17 RR: Well, I think the word "debate" means to "beat down." ROH: Did you have teachers that inspired you in high school? RR: My debate teacher was the principal out at Riverdale that banged my head. He was my coach all the way through. ROH: You were in school and you were working so give me an idea of your schedule. RR: I would go to school and after school at 3:30 p.m. I would go to my dad's shop and work for a couple of hours and go home. I always worked on Saturdays. My dad probably was the greatest influence on me of anybody because he always said, "I'm not going to give you money, but I'll give you a job. You can work for it and you can have the money." That's the way he was. ROH: So you were student of the year in your high school. RR: Well I don't know if that's what they called it, but maybe they did. ROH: Yes, we will get a copy of this. I'm looking at a photograph that says, "The typical boy graduate is Dick Richards, he's only 5'8" but he has short brown hair and warm brown eyes. He likes school this year but in the past years he skipped school every chance he got. Now he's sorry he's leaving." Is this college or high school? RR: That's high school. ROH: Do you remember what you talked about in your speech? 18 RR: I don't think I have a copy of that speech, but I have a copy of my college speech when I spoke at graduation there. ROH: You were public speaking at a young age. We're going to finish up talking about high school years and move on to college. When you graduated from high school, you wrote the commencement speech. What did you do after high school? RR: Obviously, during the summer I worked for my dad. In the Fall I enrolled at Weber Junior College. Weber Junior College at that time was on 25th Street at about Monroe and Madison. There were about four buildings there and one of them is still there— it's the Deseret Gym building. The other buildings are gone. It was a very small school. Interestingly enough, the president of that school was Dr. Henry Aldus Dickson. He knew an awful lot of the kids by name. We were all very friendly with him. He took a liking to me and I'm not sure why, but he said to me one time, "Dick, are you having a little trouble raising money to go to school?" I said, "Yeah, I'm working but I don't have the money yet." He said, "Well, you drop in my office and see the secretary and she'll give you a scholarship." So I walked in the office and they gave me a twenty-five dollar scholarship. That was a full quarter's tuition. I actually have a copy of that scholarship. ROH: That's fantastic. RR: He liked me and he wanted to help me out. I guess he knew I came from a family of a lot of kids. All of my siblings were still at home. ROH: Did your brother ahead of you go to college? 19 RR: I don't remember. I guess he went to college before me, but I didn't have a lot of relationship with my brother at that time. He was a year and a half older than me and he had different friends. We did some things together, but mostly we each had our own friends. ROH: What did you study at Weber College? RR: I studied debate, philosophy, political science, and economics. I did a lot of those subjects, I didn't do any basket weaving and that stuff. No political correctness at that time. I got enough credits in what I studied in history, philosophy and economics that I was able to transfer them to law school without having a bachelor's degree. When I applied to law school they said, "Well you haven't got a bachelor's degree, you can't come here with what you've got." I said, "Look at the catalog." The catalog said, "153 acceptable hours," or something and I had them. I said, "There they are." He said, "Well, I guess you're right." They enrolled me in law school without having a degree from Weber. ROH: Where was that? RR: University of Utah law school. ROH: How old were you when you started law school? RR: I started law school after I'd been in the army and returned, so there's a gap there. ROH: Did you go into the army after Weber? 20 RR: In August of 1952, I was drafted. The Korean War was on and we were all drafted. It was kind of interesting at that time because there was a lady by the name of Agnus Christe who was the head of the selective service office who really resented Mormon kids going on missions and not going in the army. So, the day you turned 18 you got a draft notice. You couldn't go on a mission. ROH: Did you have any other friends that you were in the army with at that time? RR: I was drafted ahead of my friends for some reason by a matter of a few months. I was drafted with one kid from Ogden by the name of Jim Pollus and we went to basic training together. I went on to leadership and OCS and he did not. He's passed away since. My friends I had here in South Ogden came to Fort Ord after several months that I had already been there so I was ahead of them in the army. ROH: Well, we just kind of skimmed over Weber College, so the next time we meet we'll talk about Weber College, the Army, and Law School. Thank you very much for sharing your young years with me and we will continue next time. This is the end of the interview on August 7, 2012. Thank you. RR: You're Welcome. ROH: Today is Monday, August 13, 2012. We are in the home of Richard Richards, who goes by Dick. I am Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University and we are going to continue his oral history. We will pick up with your university years from where we left off last week. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your time in law school? 21 RR: After I came home from the Army, I decided to go to law school. I had done some other things in the meantime, but when I found out I was going to go to law school I needed some more credit hours. I went back to Weber and picked up some more hours in political science, history, and philosophy. I was married and had two children. I had to work because I had to make a living, so I worked for my father part-time and painted signs. I worked in Ogden for my dad about 20 hours a week and went to law school. That was an hour a day going down and an hour a day going back. That didn't leave me a lot of time for studying. I really didn't study very hard in law school, but I studied all day Sunday and started at 5:00 a.m. It was a tough grind. I decided it ought to be easier if I lived in Salt Lake because I wouldn't have to commute. So, I got a job with the state liquor commission. It was a political job. Governor Clyde was the governor and I think Laurence Burton was his assistant at that time. Anyway, I got a job with the liquor commission selling liquor out on 23rd South and 13th East. They paid $1.65 an hour and that wasn't enough for me to make a living so I decided even though I'm going to live in Salt Lake I better commute to Ogden to work because I could make $2.50 an hour painting signs. I moved to Salt Lake to the student housing. It was called "Stadium Village." That's where the stadium is now. Rent was $30.00 a month so it was livable for a student. While I was in law school, I was active with the Young Republicans and I was asked to become the Young Republicans state chairman. I didn't know about that because it takes time and doesn't pay so I thought I'd 22 better check with the Dean. He said, "I think you could be of help to us so you go ahead and take that job." I took it and the interesting thing is, later on when the law school was trying to get an appropriation from the state legislature to build a new law school. Jerry Hanson and I invited his grandfather who was a leader in the state legislature to come to the law school and see what kind of shabby condition it was in. He visited the law school and said, "Boy, this is bad." Our main classroom in the law school was a row of tables about 24 inches deep and about six or eight feet long and they were covered with Masonite. They were really old-fashioned. The chairs were all separate and it was a noisy place. When they saw that they said, "Let's make an appropriation for a new law school." They usually invited the governor to come speak on "Law Day" which was the first of May. The assistant dean said, "The governor doesn't like lawyers, he won't come here." I was up to the governor's office talking to Laurence and I asked, "Would the governor like to go up to the University of Utah law school and speak on May Day?" He said, "Sure, we'd love to do that, but we haven't had an invitation." I asked, "Will you come if you get an invitation?" They said, "Yes." I drove back to the law school and went in the dean's office and said, "The governor would like to come if you'll give him and invitation. You type one up and I'll hand carry it to him." He was really pleased that we could get the governor there. The assistant dean that said the governor wouldn't come was embarrassed. ROH: Who was the governor at the time? 23 RR: George Dewey Clyde. The dean of the law school was Dean Diksra. He was a good dean. The assistant was a fellow by the name of Emory. Emory was a democrat and he didn't want the governor up there anyway. ROH: It must have been really good for the law school. RR: These were big helps in getting a new law school. Anyway, I hadn't graduated because I was seven hours short for graduation. I did it in two years. I didn't have time to go for three years. I was married with kids and didn't have time for that. I took extra credit and went through the summers. A couple of the fellows were in the same plight so we asked if we could take the Bar early with the preceding class. They agreed to let us take it. We took the Bar and I passed the Bar before I graduated. I had to go back to pick up seven more hours. Needless to say, I wasn't a very diligent student after having passed the Bar already. They changed the system after that. From then on you had to have a degree. They won't let you take the Bar until you've completed law school. We ruined that for the next-comers. ROH: Did you specialize in anything in law school? RR: No, I just graduated. I was not at the top of my class. I was in the top third of the class, but I did not strive to be number one. I didn't have time to study and do all that because I was working. In fact, working 20 hours was against the rules. They said if you go to law school you can't work 20 hours because you wouldn't be able to keep up. They tested me when they found out I was traveling to Ogden, but I did okay and that all worked out. After I got out of law school, I got a 24 job with the Clayton and Gould law firm in Ogden. Since they were both prosecutors I couldn't do any criminal work. If you can't do criminal work as a young lawyer, you're never going to do any trial work. I said, "I want to get courtroom practice so I'm going to quit." I quit and went on my own. I remember my first month I did not make one dime practicing law. The second month I made $50. It was a struggle. By the end of the year I was making pretty good money, but our total was $6,000 a year my first year. ROH: Do you remember your first case? RR: Yes. I remember my first major cases anyway. I went to the judges and said, "I want to try lawsuits. Give me your guys in jail who don't have any money and can't bail out and I'll represent them for free." Between the judges they gave me ten felons and they were spread out over about a year's time. I got eight acquittals out of the ten. Immediately, I had a lot of criminal clients. They would ask, "Who's your attorney?" They would give them my name and that generated a lot of business for me. I got tired of the criminal stuff, but it was a great experience to try the cases. The first murder case I had was a fellow that came into town on a Greyhound bus, got out of the bus station, walked across the street to the Friendly Tavern, pulled out a pistol and said, "So you're the "blankety-blank"?" He shot a guy about seven times. That was Joe Edgington. He killed him right on the spot. He didn't even know him and the guy was completely nuts. He thought he was somebody else. He casually walked across the street toward the police 25 station. Several witnesses saw him throw the gun in the bushes and keep on walking and they arrested him. L.G. Bingham and I were assigned to defend him pro bono and that was my first major criminal case. L.G. Bingham, in my opinion, was the smartest lawyer in town. He was a good thinker, but he was not a real studious guy and he didn't spend a lot of time preparing the case. Sometimes he would go into court without any defense in mind. He'd find a defense as the prosecutors put on their case. He won a lot of cases. He was very talented in doing that. He and I defended this guy and ended up pleading "not guilty" by reason of insanity. That stuck and he went to a mental institution. I haven't heard anything from him since. That was my first case. L.G. Bingham and I defended another case of a couple of fellows that murdered a man on North Ogden Divide. Maybe you read about it. They picked up a sailor from Salt Lake and took him up to Ogden. They'd been drinking and they thought he had money so they took him up to rob him. The guy resisted and they hit him. They took off all his clothes, threw him in the car and left the guy naked. He was walking down the highway naked and finally fell over the side and froze to death. They were looking through his clothes because they thought he had some money in it. They looked through his shirt and no money in his shirt and threw it out the window as they traveled down the canyon. There was no money in the pants, so they threw the pants out along with the shoes and socks. His clothes were strewn down the canyon for a half a mile and nobody really understood what it was all about. One of the boys called the police and gave himself up. They arrested the other guy a few days later. Ray defended one of 26 them and I defended the other one. They got off with a voluntary manslaughter and two years in prison. They were young guys, drinking and doing stupid stuff and ended up killing a man. I tried cases from 1961 until 1980 when I went to Washington to work full-time with Ronald Reagan. I did spend some time in the early 1960's in Washington with Laurence Burton. That was for two years. I was there at the time that John Kennedy was killed and the Senator of Texas and John F. Kennedy's Vice President, Lyndon Johnson, became the president. ROH: How did it come about that you ended up moving to Washington? RR: Laurence Burton asked me to help him on his campaign. I was one of two major campaign managers on his campaign for congress and he won. He invited me to come back to Washington. I went back there as his legislative assistant and after a year I was made his administrative assistant. Dr. Aldus Dickson, who was a good friend of mine as I indicated earlier said, "Dick, do not stay there more than two years. Laurence is going to ask you to stay, but don't do it." ROH: Why not? RR: He said, "If you do you'll get caught up as a professional staffer in Washington and you'll never develop a career of you own." The pay is good and it's an exciting thing if you're a staffer to a senator and they have big issues. I followed his advice and I came home. ROH: When did you come home? 27 RR: I came home in 1964. I was here when the election was held and Barry Goldwater was soundly defeated. I decided I wanted to run for party chairman. I'd been Young Republican chairman, so I ran for party chairman and won overwhelmingly. The reason I did is because while I was working for Laurence I traveled to all of the counties in the state when they held their county convention. Those were the guys that were going to be delegates to the state convention. When I met them on the county level and they came to the state, they at least knew who I was. I ran against a guy from Salt Lake that should have won. He had a lot of money, was a prominent business guy, and kind of a moderate fellow, but I beat him about six or seven to one. Afterward he said, "I knew you were going to beat me, but I didn't think you were going to stomp me into the ground." He was a good sport. I was the party chairman for two years. In 1966, the state of Utah turned from a Democratic state to a Republican state. People say this has always been a Republican state. However, they were heavily Democratic all over. All of the counties were controlled by Democratic county commissioners. In Weber County, prior to that time, only one Republican had been elected to county office for 50 years. That was Sherriff Mac Wade. This county was so strongly Democrat that a Republican may as well not even get on the ballot. We turned that around in 1966 and won control of the legislature, both the House and the Senate, by a vast majority. I think there were only five Democrats in the Senate when we got to it. There were only ten in the House. In fact, we elected too many. It was a bad deal to have that many Republicans and 28 so little opposition. That gradually faded out. That was one of the most exciting elections of my life because it was such a wonderful victory. I was re-elected party chairman in 1968. I had a good record and got a call from the Republican National Committee in Washington. The chairman of the Republican National Committee asked me if I'd come back and interview for a job working for the National Committee. I went back and I remember the feeling. I got out of my hotel and got that stinky, humid Washington air and I said to myself, "Dick, what in the hell are you doing here? Turn around and go home." I went to the interview with the deputy chairman and the chairman of the committee at that time, Rogers Morton. They offered me a job and I took it. I became the head of party development. After I did that for a while, I was promoted to the political director of the National Committee. I brought my family back and we lived in Maryland. We also lived in Virginia down by the Pentagon and had some nice experiences. We went to the grave site ceremony of John Kennedy when he was taken to Arlington National Cemetery. Later, at the top of the cemetery, they put a forever memorial for John Kennedy. Laurence and the other congressman from Utah, Sherm Lloyd, were there. Somehow or another we got on the parade route out to the cemetery. The soldiers and the Marines were lined up all the way and we had no way to get off. Laurence was joking and said, "Don't throw out any beer cans." We went up past the soldiers and when we got to the cemetery, the guy that was in charge told us we had to leave. We didn't want to after all that effort, so we sneaked into the press section and got kicked out of the press section too. We 29 went up the road and nobody paid attention to us there, but everybody including the Kennedys came up that road. The Carsons and the Kennedys were there. The Emperor of Ethiopia and Charles Degall came in. We were almost within touching distance of each of them. It was really kind of interesting to see that. In part of the ceremony they had the Irish Guard do a drill procedure and when they were through they marched out. As they marched out me and this kid marched in where they had been and we ended up right in front of the congressman. Laurence Burton said, "Hey Dick, look who's standing behind you." I looked behind me and there was Adlai Stevenson, who was the ambassador, and all these big-shots. We stood directly across from the grave site where the Kennedy casket was standing. The Kennedys were all on the other side. I was not even 20 feet away from Jacqueline Kennedy and her kids when all of this happened. In fact, we had a chance to walk by the casket. That was a good experience. Then, of course, Lyndon Johnson became the president and in 1964 he forced the passage of the Civil Rights Act that Kennedy could not get done. Kennedy didn't have the horsepower in the Senate to get it done. The House passed it, that wasn't a big problem, but it was the Senate that didn't want to pass it. They filibustered and did everything they could to avoid passing it. Lyndon Johnson just beat them up and on the 4th of July, they passed the Civil Rights Act. ROH: What was that like living in Washington when that happened? 30 RR: That was an exciting time. They had Martin Luther King Jr. speak at the Lincoln Memorial. There were hundreds of thousands of people there. I was at the Capitol and we talked about going down, but we figured it wasn't a good thing to do to go clear down there and get involved in that crowd. We were also there at the time the Blacks rioted on 14th street and burned a lot of the buildings. That was pretty close to the same time Martin Luther King Jr. gave his historic speech at the Lincoln Memorial. That was a big event at that time. It was an exciting time and an exciting point in history. ROH: Do you remember having conversations with your family about those events in the evenings when you were home with them? RR: My kids went with me when we saw the Kennedy ceremony. I explained that to them and when we got home and they were excited about it. They liked John Kennedy, they though he was a wonderful fellow. They got to do things that other kids don't get to do. They got to go to the White House, the Capitol building, Williamsburg and Jamestown. We went down to Jamestown and that was one of the great experiences where we saw replicas of those three little boats that brought the pilgrims here in 1607 and built the first permanent settlement in America. They gave us the history about how most of them starved to death or were killed by the Indians or by something else. There were very few survivors. That was a real eye-opener to us about early history. We got up to the Baltimore Harbor where Frances Scott Key saw the Star Spangled Banner and we saw the battlefield of the fight between the British and 31 the Americans on the Potomac River. Of course, the British captured Washington and they burned down a lot of things. They tried to burn down the White House and burned down a lot of it. They torched the various places in the Capitol and you can still see where the smoke was where they had gone with their torches. That was a great experience for my kids. They all became far more interested in American government. ROH: You've written a lot about your time in Washington in your book, so I won't repeat a lot of that, but tell me a little bit about how you felt about your career at that time. You had some significant leaps and bounds from Ogden to Washington at that point. RR: Reagan was anticipated to be a candidate for president in 1968. The convention was held in Miami Beach and Nixon, George Romney, and Rockefeller were candidates. Nixon was the clear leader. I was the state party chairman at that time. I knew the Nixon people and they knew me. They talked to me many times about helping on the Nixon campaign and I said, "Well, I'm the chairman of the party so I can't do that." We invited Ronald Reagan to come to our convention and the Nixon people were just livid after Reagan spoke. We only had about 14 national delegates at that time. This was the year we picked our delegates to go to the national convention. Nixon was clearly the favorite, although George Romney had some friends here because of his Mormon ties and ties to Utah. A guy from Cutbank, Montana who was a close associate of Reagan and a guy I knew as a party chairman said, "Dick, how would you like to have Ronald 32 Reagan be the keynote speaker at your convention, he'll do it for free." I said, "Hey, great. We want him." He came and Annette and I met him in the old Hotel Utah the night before he spoke. That was the first time we met Ronald Reagan. Annette was enamored because he was a movie star, and I was enamored because he was a politician. Anyway, he spoke the next day and he just mesmerized our delegation. Every one of them would have turned around and voted for him against Nixon if he ended up being our candidate. As we got down to Miami Beach, Nixon was nominated and Reagan withdrew his name, but George Romney stayed in and I was given the opportunity to second the nomination of George Romney for president back in Miami Beach. That was a high point for me. Nixon won of course. After he won the convention delegates, they hired me to do some ground work as a field man for Nixon in about 8 Western Rocky Mountain states. I had Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Hawaii, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana and Arizona. I organized the ground campaign and it is interesting because the thing that attracted me to the National Party Leaders to begin with was my organizational technique for recruiting people to go door-to-door. We called it the neighbors program. I was called back to New York after Nixon was nominated to meet with John Mitchell who was in charge of the campaign. They asked me about this program that I had in mind and Mitchell liked it, but some of his aides didn't like it and they started to argue with me. Mitchell sat there and just smoked his pipe and never said a word during my presentation. When it was all done, they started asking, "How do you know this is going to work?" I said, "We've done 33 it, we know how this thing works, you don't have to worry about that." Mitchell said, "We're going to do it. I like it. Richards, we'd like you to come to work full-time for us." I said, "I can't do it because I'm the party chairman out in Utah, but I know somebody who can do that program for you." They wanted to do it in Oregon first and he was running a primary against Rockefeller. Oregon was a liberal state and Nixon's people said, "We're not even going to go there, it's just a waste of time." So they didn't go there, but they sent my friend Alan Peterson, who was the guy that I recommended to do this. Peterson was an intern to me when I was party chairman in Utah. He knew my program, so they hired him to run the program and Nixon won. Nixon had never been there and Rockefeller had been there three times. Rockefeller's slogan was, "He cared enough to come." Everybody expected Rockefeller to win, but Nixon did win. Nixon said, "That's my secret weapon. I want to do that." Peterson was hired to run this program all over the country and did a great job with it. After the Nixon campaign, the next effort I got involved with was when Ronald Reagan was running against Gerald Ford. Nixon left, Ford became the president and Ford wanted to run. These same people that brought me back to Washington all thought I would be for Ford and wanted me to be involved in his Ford campaign. They asked me to get involved and I said, "I can't do that. I'm for the other guy." They said, "You're for Ronald Reagan? You can't be against the seated president. You're a party chairman and you're against our incumbent president?" In fact, the owner of Zion's Bank in the state of Utah, Roy Simmons, 34 met me at the airport and said, "Dick, that's crazy. You're going to go for that "class B" act against the president." ROH: Why was that? Why were you so pro-Reagan? RR: I just really liked the guy. I saw something in him and I thought, "This is the guy that ought to be the president." Reagan and Ford contended against each other at the convention in 1976 and it was a very close battle. We lost it right at the last minute and we felt bad about that. Prior to the time that I went to work with him Ronald Reagan had a group called Citizens for the Republic. This was a political action committee that was not for his benefit but where he could raise money and give to conservative candidates. Paul Laxalt was Reagan's closest friend in Washington, the former governor of Nevada and the Senator at that time. He invited me to join the Citizens for the Republic. I got a letter from Ronald Reagan saying, "I understand you're willing to do this, I'd love to have you join us." I became a member of the executive committee for the Citizens for the Republic. After we lost to Ford, we held a couple of monthly meetings and the meetings were usually held in Florida or someplace a distance from me and I had to fly over there and I had to pay a hotel bill. It cost me money to do it, about a thousand bucks every time I went to one of the meetings. After I went to a couple of them I thought, "This is a big waste of time." I got up in a meeting Paul Laxalt was conducting and said, "You know the next battle we're going to have is a convention fight just like the one we just lost and I don't see us getting any better prepared than we were then. I think we're wasting time." Ronald Reagan was 35 sitting at the far end of the table and he was doodling. After I said that he stopped and said, "That's right," and he pointed the pen at me. Paul said, "Well, does anybody else have anything to say?" We said, "No." No one else was going to interfere after the president said that. He said, "Okay, Dick, I'm appointing you to form a committee to come back to the next meeting and tell us what we ought to be doing. Richard, you're the chairman of the committee." We held some meetings after that and came back to the next meeting and gave him a report on what I thought we ought to be doing. We put together a program and I presented it. Everybody at the meeting thought it was a great idea except for two people. One of them was John Sears, who later became the chairman of the Reagan campaign. The chairman was fired at the night of the New Hampshire primary. The other guy was a fellow that had been with Reagan for many years named Nofziger. They all said, "Hey, this is great we want to do it. So after the meeting was over, I headed home and Paul Laxalt remained there for a while with this guy from Cutbank, Montana and Paul said, "I like Dick's idea, but who's going to get to run it? The program entails some work." Frank said, "Well, why don't you ask Dick?" Paul said, "He's a lawyer, he doesn't have time to do this and we don't have money to pay him to get it done. That's a lot of time involved." Frank said, "Well, before you write him off, ask him." So Paul called me on the phone and asked, "Would you run this program that you proposed to us? We will pay all of your expenses and enough money to pay your overhead of your office while you're gone working for us, but we don't have the money to pay you for your time." I said, "Okay." 36 I spent several months doing that and after Reagan got nominated and he was going to do the campaign, he said, "Dick, we want you to run the Western half of the country." Dick Wirthlin was put in charge of it and Bill Casing was the chairman. Dick Wirthlin was the strategist and would say, "We want you to take everything West of the Mississippi River except Texas and build the ground organization." After we won, Reagan wanted me to be the chairman of the transition team for the Department of Interior. I headed the team where we transitioned the Department of Interior from the Democrats to the Republicans and that was an interesting experience because they were paranoid about us and we were paranoid about them. It was common courtesy for the outgoing administration to cooperate with the incoming and let them have whatever information they wanted. So, we went down to the Department of interior, I recruited a group of guys to work with me on the campaign. Paul Laxalt had a couple people he wanted to do that and we took over down at the Department of Interior. We decided what we wanted to do, what people we wanted to remove and what changes we wanted to make. During that time, there were a lot of rumors in the paper about what was going to happen to Dick Richards. You saw them in Ogden. Is he going to be Secretary of the Interior? Is he going to be chairman of the party? When we got through with the Department of Interior, I got a call from the White house and they asked, "Dick, will you be available at 5:00 p.m. to take a call from the White House?" I said, "I'll be here." At 5:00 p.m., I get a telephone call from Ronald Reagan and he said, "Hi Dick, this is Ron, you've been reading about rumors that I was going to 37 appoint you chairman of the National Committee, so I want to make those rumors a reality. Would you take that chairmanship for me?" I said, "Mr. President, I'd be glad to." That's how it happened. ROH: It was that simple. RR: That simple. That's the way Reagan was, he was straight forward and simple. Let me tell you a thing I learned. This is a little out of order, but it shows Reagan. After I was elected, I was invited to go to the meetings that took place once a month between the president and the leaders of the House and the Senate. Bob Michael was a minority leader of the House. He was from Peoria, Illinois. One time, as we walked into the meeting, President Reagan says, "Hi Bob, how are things in Peoria?" Bob says, "Shucks, Mr. President, we've got it tough. We've got 5,600 caterpillar workers unemployed. We're trying to get a contract to sell our ditch-digger to the Russians and we just can't get it done." The president said, "Well, what's the matter? Is that a piece of high-tech equipment or something?" He says, "Hell no, it's a ditch digger, anybody can make a ditch digger." The president said, "Then I don't understand." He said, "Well, we have to get permission from the Department of Commerce in order to make the sale and they haven't made a decision." The president walks over and put his hand on his shoulder and said, "Bob, they just did." That day, Bob announced to his people in Peoria that the President approved their sale and they all went back to work. That's the way Reagan did it. I would have thought that he would have said to his Chief of Staff, Jim Baker to call Secretary Mossbacker and see what's holding 38 this up. Well, he didn't need to do that, he was president he could make the decision. ROH: Today is Wednesday, September 5, 2012. We are in the home of Richard Richards continuing his oral history. This is Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University. Present are Rebecca and Richard Richards as well as Annette Richards. Why don't we pick up from when you were still in Washington D.C. and you've finished your political piece of working with the White House? Tell me what you did after that presidential term was completed. RR: After I completed my two year assignment at the Republican National Committee, I chose not to run longer because there were too many problems fighting with people that wanted to control the National Committee and all that stuff. As I left, Ronald Reagan called me down to the White House and said, "Dick, you've been a loyal lieutenant to me for a long time, but you've never really been in my administration. I would like you to come and be part of the Reagan administration. What I'd like you to do is go over to the Department of Interior and be the Under Secretary to Jim Watt. Jim is having trouble and I think you could help him out. I said, "Well, Mr. President, I've been a volunteer for you for about six years and I'm broke. I need to get out and make some money. So, I really don't think I can do that." Not only that, I was beginning to have some health problems and I knew that it would be a torture chamber to go through some kind of hearing with the Senate controlled by the Democrats. I could not imagine that the Democrats would approve someone who had just been chairman of the Republican Party to go be the Under Secretary of the Department of Interior. I 39 passed that up and I opened up a lobbying lawyer business in Washington and began representing various interests. ROH: What was the name of the company? RR: Initially, I was with a couple of other lawyers, but when I started my own company it was called, "Commerce Consultants International" (CCI). When I left the National Committee, I had a going away party sponsored by the National Committee. It was to introduce my replacement, but also it was sort of a going away party for me and Ronald Reagan came. I heard from some inside people that some of the folks at the White House said, "Don't go for Richards, you didn't go when Dick Allen left or when others left. Why go for him?" Reagan said, "Well, I like him and we'll go." So, Reagan came and he spoke and said, "Dick Richards was my friend when it took courage to be my friend." That refers to the fact that I was the only state party chairman that supported Reagan against Gerald Ford while Ford was the president. That set me apart from the others and that's why Reagan appreciated me. It took courage to do that. I opened my office and immediately got some clients. One of the first clients was Sikorsky Helicopter Company. They had been trying to sell their helicopter to Taiwan for about six years. At one time they had a deal, but when Jimmy Carter was president he killed it. I met with a representative who was a lobbyist for Sikorsky and also a General from Taiwan. He came to my office and said, 'We want to buy the Black Hawk, and if we can't get it in the next six months we're going to write it off and we're going to buy the French helicopter 40 called the Augusta. We'll give you six months to get this done." I contacted Ed Meece who was counselor to the president and told him what we wanted to do. He went to the president and the president said, "Let them have what they want." That was six years of red tape cut by the president. I became a hero to Sikorsky because they'd been trying for six years. I developed a pretty good base of aerospace clients. I represented Sikorsky and I did some work for Boeing, General Dynamics and Pratt Whitney jet engines. I did a lot of work for them over many years. It turned out to be a very good client. ROH: Were there any other major clients when you were working? RR: I had some interesting ones. I was asked to represent the Kingdom of Thailand. I was the foreign agent for Thailand here in the United States. The United States was pressing some trade violations against Thailand. They were copying some of our medications. I remember they had a fake Sudafed that they sold and they copied our movies and all kinds of stuff. They stole a lot of intellectual property. The United States was going to punish them for it. When I was representing them, I talked to the Prime Minister and saw the other people that were movers and shakers over there and I asked, "What's your deal?" They said, "We'll stop stealing in two years, but we've got to do that now because the American products like medications are too expensive for Thai people to buy so we have to copy them and sell them at a lower price. We'll stop in two years." I asked, "Why?" They said, "Because we're working on our own copyright and patent laws and when they're in place to protect us then we'll protect you, but we're not going to protect you until we're ready." I went to the White House and I talked to the 41 domestic advisor of the president who was a friend of mine, Roger Porter. I said, "They said they'll quit in two years." He started to laugh and he says, "How am I going to tell the president they're only going to steal for two years?" I said, "Well, you know, the Japanese lied to you, the Chinese lied to you, everyone else lies to you, but these guys are at least telling you the truth." They withheld the sanctions against them. I represented this fellow by the name of Chachi. He was the first elected Prime Minister and after a couple years he got on an airplane with one of his generals by the name of Suchinda. The general pulled out his pistol and said, "Okay, Mr. Prime Minister, you're out and I'm in." He took over and executed Chachi right there with the airplane. Later on, Suchinda was trying to establish himself there and a lot of students rioted and picketed and so forth. About 1,500 of them just disappeared. I guess he had them killed and removed. When the king found out what happened he told him, "You're out. You can't be the prime minister here." Suchinda walked away. The king had a great deal of moral influence, although he had no legislative or statutory right to make those decisions. That was an interesting experiment. ROH: Did you ever have to travel to Thailand? RR: I traveled to Thailand once in a while, but my area was mostly in the Far East. I did a lot of traveling. In fact, someone asked me about traveling to Hong Kong and I looked it up and found I had 22 round-trips to Hong Kong in the 10 years of my passport. I did a lot there. 42 ROH: What about in Bangkok? RR: I did a lot in Bangkok. Later on, I represented a company in California called Sunrider International. I went to Bangkok, Malaysia, Indonesia and other countries to get permission for Sunrider to sell their product there and to convince them that our method of selling was legitimate. It was multi-level marketing and that was not common in the Far East, so we had to talk them into letting us do that. ROH: What happened next in your career? RR: That went on for several years. I represented people during the George Bush administration and did some part-time volunteer work for George Herbert Walker Bush in his campaign. I did some organizing in neighborhoods and in Washington, Oregon and here in the West. In fact, I was telling Annette that while I was involved with George Bush, he invited me to fly out with him to Boeing in Seattle. They were honoring the astronauts. They had the living astronauts there and I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to who was there, I never took any pictures or anything because I was there on a political trip. I think about a half a dozen of those guys and Neil Armstrong was there. They were given an award by Boeing Company for their exploits. They had an airplane like the one George Bush flew when he crashed into the ocean and he was rescued. He was really excited about that. He was looking at that and reminiscing. I was talking to Barbara Bush while he was doing that and she was excited for him because he hadn't seen one of those airplanes for a really long time. 43 ROH: Did you do any lobbying after that? RR: I did lobbying almost up to the time that I came home to Utah. Having been the Republican National Chairman, I had excellent contacts with Republicans and the Republican presidents. After Bill Clinton got elected, most of my contacts were gone. They were now Democratic contacts, so I figured that was a good time for me to go home. ROH: What year was it that you came home? RR: I think I came home about 1993. We were looking for a place to live here. I had a nice home in Washington and the value of it increased significantly. I had a profit on that property, but the tax laws were such at that time that if I sold my house, even though I bought another house I didn't get any kind of tax break on it and the government would have taken about $70,000 from me in taxes. I said, "Well, I'm not going to do that. I'll put the money into a new house." I bought a house here in South Ogden. I bought it without Annette seeing it. I came out and I saw this house and I walked in and it was a beautiful house on 46th and Jefferson, a big gray rock house. I walked in there and the neighbor was a real estate agent for Weber County. I walked in and looked in the foyer and I didn't even go through the house, it was just so beautiful and I was impressed so I said, "I'll take it." I gave him a check that night for earnest money. I said, "One condition, my wife has a week to decide whether she wants to come here." I called Annette and she didn't want to be bothered coming out. My daughter who lived here went to see it and she said, "Oh mom, you'll love the house." We agreed and we moved 44 into the house. We lived there until I started having a pretty serious heart problem and we couldn't keep up the land. The property was too big and complicated. We had to move, so we moved here into the condominiums. ROH: Tell me a little bit about your health problems you are referring to. RR: When I was living in Virginia I went out for a bike ride with my youngest son. As I pumped up a hill I had severe chest pains and I stopped at the top and I said, "Brian, I have to stop and rest." He wanted to go on so I told him he can go on but I had to rest. When I went home Annette saw me and she said, "Dick you look terrible, you need to go to a doctor." I said, "Well, I'll do it tomorrow." I was kind of gray and having a lot of pain. I waited until the next day and went to a doctor. They examined me and said, "You've had a major blockage of your arteries, but don't worry about it because the worst that could happen to you already happened." We thought that was pretty crazy to say that, so I went to a very famous cardiologist I had contact with as a result of some of my business. He ran a heart hospital in Phoenix. They tested me and said, "You've got some blockage." They gave me an angiogram and put in a stent. The stent lasted just one day and it was clogged up again. This was just a couple of days before Christmas. I said to the surgeon, "What do you recommend?" He said, "I think you ought to get a mechanical fix." He meant a bypass. I said, "Well, I ought to do it. This is a good time for me to do that. Business is slow in Washington. So when can you do it?" He said, "I can do it 45 tomorrow." I called Annette and said, "I'm not coming home for Christmas, I'm getting open-heart surgery tomorrow." Annette had Christmas in Virginia with the family before she came to see me. I remember after the operation when I looked in the mirror; I looked like my father looked on his death bed. My voice was just like him. Annette saw me and she started crying. That was my first open-heart surgery. I got over that for a while and later on I developed another problem. In fact, I'd been in Korea and worked out in the exercise room in the hotel in Korea and I thought, "I'm doing great." By the time I got to the airport I was having trouble, so that was the sign that I needed it again. Then, I ended up having open-heart surgery again here in Ogden with Dr. Cain at the McKay-Dee Hospital. That one was kind of interesting because I went to Salt Lake to the Beehive House and I was participating in a political meeting there. The pains became more severe and more severe. I didn't think I was going to make it home it was so bad. Immediately, I saw a sign that said "Hospital Next Right" so I took the road up to the hospital on Antelope Drive and went to the emergency ward and went in and told the lady, "I need some help." She said, "You look terrible. Sit down." They got me in a wheelchair and got me some oxygen and said, "You need to see your heart doctor tomorrow." I went to see him and that's when he said, "We'll do another operation on you." So I got another open-heart surgery here. The one I got in Phoenix I got about five or six bypasses. When I was here in Ogden I got a couple more. It seemed like every two years I would have problems. 46 Later on, I had a problem again and I saw the same doctors and they said, "We won't open you up, we've opened you up twice and we're not interested in performing another open-heart, we never know what we're going to get into." I was in serious trouble and nobody would touch me. I went to the LDS hospital in Salt Lake and they didn't want to do anything and McKay-Dee didn't want to do anything. My son got on the internet and found a vascular surgeon out in Daly City, California who was doing some experimental laser surgery. We decided to try that. I went out to see them and they acknowledged that I needed some surgery, but it was experimental and the FDA would not let them perform that surgery unless I had an independent doctor look at me beforehand to say, "If he doesn't get it he'll probably die." It was one of these compassionate things. They said, "There's no insurance, so if you come out here, you'll have to bring cash with you." The vascular surgeon's secretary or nurse negotiated with the hospital and everybody involved and I had to take $15,000 out to Daly City Hospital and they performed that surgery on me. It's called TMR Transmyocardial Revascularization. They open you up and pull the ribs apart and punch holes in your heart with a laser. They move the laser right up to the heart muscle and punch a hole and blood will start coming out and they rub their finger on it and it seals it over and they move over and punch another until they punch 25 holes, sew you up and that's it. I'll tell you, it was the best operation I've ever had. The impact was dramatic. I walked out of there in a couple of days and the only thing that was wrong with me was I hurt a 47 lot on the soft tissue. Otherwise, it was like I'd never had a heart problem. That lasted me for several years and we decided I could go on a mission. Annette and I volunteered to go on a mission and we were called to the Rochester, New York mission and that included Buffalo, Rochester and Palmyra. While I was there I had the problem again and I was hospitalized. When I got home everything looked pretty good. I ended up over here at Ogden Regional and had a few more stents put in. I got to a point where I was really in trouble and my doctor said, "I tried to go in there and put in another stent, but I couldn't even get my wire in the artery. I tried four times and then I gave it up. I have to tell you, you're in pretty serious shape. I don't think you'll live on too much. I'd give you about two months unless somebody can fix this and we don't have a doctor with the ability to fix this particular problem." It was the main descending right artery. ROH: What year was this? RR: It was about 2007. The doctor said, "Let me call Mayo, Johns Hopkins and Cleveland. If anybody could do it one of them can, but I don't even know if they'll touch you." Cleveland said, "Come on back and we'll look at it and decide what to do." So we went back there and we checked in on a Monday and they did all kinds of tests on me until Friday and I met with the surgeon and he said, "Mr. Richards, you're in pretty bad shape. You've got about two months and that's about all you can live with this. The only way we could avoid that is if we could fix it. We don't even want to try. We don't open up people three times, now you want 48 us to open you up the fourth time. We don't normally do that." I said, "Well, doctor, you're the best hospital in the country to do this, you're the best doctor and I'm a tough patient. I want you to do it." He started laughing and he said, "I guess if anybody can survive it, you probably could. I won't agree to do it, but stick around for a day or so and I'll talk to some other surgeons and we'll see if we can work something out. But you have no promise from me." On Sunday, we got the telephone call from them and they said, "If you're still willing to take the risk and give appropriate releases, we'll do it on Tuesday." They called back and said, "We've got a cancellation Monday, come on in Monday morning." So I went in Monday morning and that's when they did the operation on me. It was kind of interesting though, the doctor did not want to do it. I knew he didn't want to do it, so he was looking pretty glum when they were about to do it. They did twelve open-heart surgeries a day at that hospital. He looked kind of glum and I said, "Well, doctor, let me tell you something that will make you feel better. I'm a Mormon, and we have a scripture that says all men are given a gift and you have a gift to heal people and I have the gift to be healed." He gave me the thumbs up and shoved me in the operating room and that was it. He called my doctor here and said, "You know, if it hadn't been for his attitude, we would have never touched him. He had such a good attitude. We thought he had a reasonable chance to survive." After about a year my doctor said, "Write to this guy and tell him you're still alive, I think he'll be interested in hearing it." ROH: It's been five years later. Are you doing well now? 49 RR: I'm doing pretty well. I've got some problems, but I'm doing pretty well. ROH: So does this heart issue run in your family? RR: Both of my parents had strokes, so I presume it runs in the family. I've got seven sisters and none of them have the problem. I have one brother and he's had one little problem, but hasn't had a stent put in. I've ended up with nine bypasses, four open-heart surgeries, fourteen stents, and a pacemaker and I'm just ticking along until it's time to go. ROH: Were there any prominent surgeons here in Ogden that worked with you on this? RR: Doctor Cain at McKay-Dee Hospital and my cardiologist here is Doctor Diehl at Ogden Regional. He's put in about seven of my stents. He's not a surgeon, he's a cardiologist. So, that's my medical history. ROH: Let's back up here a little bit. You moved back here from Washington. Were you involved in law practice when you moved back to Ogden? RR: I still represented Sunrider Corporation out of California. I was their general council. I really wasn't though. I had the title, but I was more of a consultant to them and did routine corporate work for them. I did a little bit of other lobbying. I did not do legal work, but I did some lobbying for people. ROH: Were you lobbying for Utah constituents or people back in Washington? RR: Mostly back in Washington. 50 ROH: Can you tell me some of the people you were working with then? RR: I was working with people in the aerospace business and I had to lobby the congress for them to put a little pressure on Taiwan to buy a bunch of Boeing aircraft. Taiwan Airlines wanted it, but they had some guys in the Taiwan government that didn't want to spend the money although they had billions on hand. Our job was to build a little bit of fire under the head of the government in Taiwan so they'd buy the airplanes from us. We had a bad balance of trade. They sold us a lot more than we sold them. To sell them eight or ten 747's was a big deal and we promoted that pretty aggressively. I didn't do a whole lot more, I really was quite retired. ROH: Did you get involved with any groups in the community? RR: I got involved with some friends and we played golf once a week. I did a little work in politics. I helped Orrin Hatch and other Republican candidates. I didn't do a lot. I didn't have the energy to do a lot and I didn't feel safe to travel. I did do some traveling to visit my son in Alabama and my daughter in New York and stuff like that, but I've been retired. However, I'm writing some papers on how I think we can improve the presidential election system in America. ROH: I know you have written a lot. RR: I've had people ask me to represent them and I've turned them down because I couldn't be reliable. If I had to go someplace tomorrow at 10:00, I'm not sure I could do it because of my health. I wake up some mornings and I just can't operate. 51 ROH: I know about you're involvement with Weber State and you've indicated that you guest lecture at the University of Utah. Why don't you tell me a little bit about that? RR: My interest was primarily with Weber State. When I left Washington after having seen the legal profession and the lobbyist I thought, "We have a real problem with ethics in this country." I wanted to do something about ethics and I talked to Ann Milner who was president of the university. I embarrassed my wife in what I said, but I said, "Ann, you ought to teach ethics on the campus. If you do that, you'll be a hero and if you don't do it you'll be a bum." She said, "You mean I'll be a bum?" I said, "Yes." We laughed about that. We talked about ethics and the development people got in touch with me. He said, "If you want to do something about it, why don't you put up some money to start a foundation?" So I did. I put up quite a bit of money for it. We started our ethics program and what we've been doing is giving scholarships out. For the last couple of years we've given scholarships and I think last year we gave about $20,000. That is, $1,000 scholarships to 20 people. ROH: Tell me a little bit about who is receiving the scholarships. RR: We put on a program in conjunction with Garff Motors, who has a program for high school students. We decided to have each of the high schools in the area participate in a contest to write the best essay on how we can improve ethics in our community. The people who wrote the best essay in 20 high schools were given a $1,000 scholarship to Weber State. We've done that for two years and I 52 presume we will continue to do it. In the meantime, I decided to write a book. I started writing my book about what I had done and so on and I've got some good help from Gene Sessions up on the campus. It took me a long time. Writing a book is not an easy project. My wife had a lot of good notes. My secretary kept a lot of good notes. I had a lot of press releases. A lot of what I put in there I got from newspapers because most everything I did was written up in the press somewhere. The book is called, "Climbing the Political Ladder One Rung at a Time" That was designed primarily to encourage young people who like politics to get involved. Also, to tell them how I was able to go from nowhere to the National Chairmanship and that they can do the same thing. As I give talks around, one of the first questions everybody asks is, "How did you ever get to become the Republican National Chairman?" The press says, "He came from Podunk Utah. Where's Ogden?" They had no idea where Ogden was. I had no family that was previously involved in politics. My family didn't have money, so how did I get to be National Chairman? ROH: Do you think that in today's environment that something like that could happen to someone? RR: It would be pretty rare because I've never heard of it happening before either. ROH: I'm sure that's what a lot of the students say is that it's really remarkable. RR: Well, what I tell them is that if they are willing to do the grubby, unglamorous work like licking the envelopes, putting on the stamps and running the errands, 53 you can work yourself up that ladder. Candidates love volunteers and if you're a good volunteer, you will just keep progressing up the line. The guy that I hired to be the executive director of the party here when I was the national chairman was Dave Turner, a young kid out of Utah State that volunteered to drive a car for me when I was a candidate. He was just a young kid interested in politics and he was a driver. From there he just moved up the ladder until he ended up in a pretty good position. ROH: What is he doing now? RR: He worked for Hudd for a while and he's just trying to get some years in for government service and he's working for the national security people at the airport. ROH: Back to this ethics business. It's curious to me because I don't know of a lot of ethics programs at other schools, so what inspired you to create something related to ethics at Weber State? RR: Well, because we needed it. We really need it. When I talked to them, Ann said, "Talk to the head of the business department." I talked to him and he said, "Well, we devote an hour or two in the course of study on ethics." I said, "That's nothing. We ought to have a whole program of ethics." I really pushed it hard and Nathan Clark pushed me to put up the money to start it and that's what we've done. Every day you can read in the newspaper about some major breech of ethics on the part of a governor, a senator, or someone that works for the city— everybody. There's ethical breech all around us and a lot of times these kids 54 don't know any better. I've seen surveys where they ask kids if they have ever cheated in school. Seventy-five percent of them say they've cheated and when you ask why they say, "Well, everybody else is cheating and I'm competing with them. If I have to compete with them then I guess I have to cheat." I thought, "We need to start teaching them a little bit earlier." If we can get a hold of these kids in high school and get them involved in ethics, it's going to a make a difference. Someone asked me, "How are you going to measure success?" I said, "I don't know that you can, but somewhere along the line you're going to touch somebody and that's going to improve their attitude on ethics." That's what it's all about. It's a difficult thing. It's prodding all the time and trying to get people to buy scholarships for the kids, but we have had some experience from these young kids that won the scholarship that say, "I could not have gone to college without that scholarship. That made all the difference in the world to me." We give it to them not because they are rich or good students, but because they have the best ideas about ethics. I still spend a lot of time and effort on this ethics stuff. ROH: I think that's great. RR: However, I do have a complaint against the university on this and I've talked to a lot of these guys that raise big chunks of money. I say, "Why don't you tell the people that are giving to earmark some of that money for ethics?" The university doesn't want to do it because they want the money to go into the building or whatever they do. There's no reason why we can't tell a guy that's going to give a million dollars that $50,000 of that can go into ethics, but the university has their 55 own program and it isn't channeling the ethics program. We're getting the new president soon and I'm going to be approaching him. Ann has been supportive, but nothing has happened other than holding those meetings. We had the former governor speak to our group a year ago and we gave out all these scholarships and there wasn't one word in the press about it. Standard Examiner never wrote one word about it. We had the pictures taken of all these kids that got scholarships and we were hoping they'd get their picture in the paper and they did not. I called Doug at the Standard and I asked if he would run a story on the ethics program. He said, "Yes. When is it?" I said, "It was last night." They did not even know what night it was and I said, "You guys at the university and the public relations department failed, you should have seen that the press was there." Again, this is the second year they didn't do it. We've decided that we've got to have a public relations guy on our board. It's their job to get the press. ROH: Is there anything nationally that you're aware of happening with ethics? RR: No. It was kind of interesting when Jon Huntsman was the governor, he came up when they named the Richard Richards Institute. Governor Huntsman and Jake Garn were there and they named it. Huntsman said, "You're the only university around here that's promoting ethics. I'm going to support you. I'm going to help you." Well, he hasn't. I sent him an email when he was over in China and said, "You said you wanted to help us I thought it meant you were going to give us some money or get other people to give some money." We hate to have to go out 56 and grub money a dollar at a time to give these scholarships. Zion's Bank has been a big supporter. They have given us $12,000 each year for two years. That was very helpful to us. The university has paid for the meals when we have the banquet and that's about all the university has done. It really hasn't caught on yet. ROH: It takes some time. How many years has it been now? RR: I've been working on it for about three or four years, but we've been giving out scholarships for the last two. Alan Hall is a big money raiser for the school. I went to Alan and said, "Alan, why don't you tell these guys that are giving money that they can earmark some for ethics." He said he would do it, but I don't think he has. However, in the next week or so that committee meets again and I'm going to go back to Alan Hall and say, "Look, give us some money." In fact, because he writes this business article and I told him, "Alan, why don't you write an article about ethics?" He wrote a paragraph about it out of probably 30 or 40 columns. We got two inches referring to ethics. We're going to have to press it. ROH: I think it would be good for you to write a column too because you've got more experience. RR: I've written some columns only they've been political columns. ROH: What do you think about ethics in politics these days? RR: Well, politics today is meaner than it has been in a long time. When Jake Garn decided he didn't want to run again and Howard Baker from Tennessee, the 57 senator from Colorado said, "It isn't fun anymore. It used to be fun, but it is just mean now. Your colleagues are mean, your constituents are mean, the press is mean and it just isn't fun." Senator Baker told me, "If I knew how good it was on the outside, I would have quit the senate a long time ago." It's just a bad environment and it is getting worse. You can go back in history and you can see even in George Washington's time they slandered one another, but we slander them day after day in the press that gets to millions of readers every day. That's why it appears so bad. ROH: How do you inspire the youth? Let's say these high school kids that you're helping to go to university. How do you inspire them to change when what they're seeing is so slanderous? RR: We've made a couple of attempts to do that. We were assigned by the governor to sit on the committee to tell how to improve elections in the state. I got the students up at Weber to write a program on it and we submitted it to the governor. We also got one on ethics and what the ethics reform ought to be. Our kids on the campus wrote a program on how to establish an ethics program in the state of Utah and the legislation didn't pay any attention to it. We gave it directly to the governor and we gave it to legislatures and we gave it to the press. Everybody saw it but the legislature pre-empted everybody and wrote their puny little ethics reform which is nothing. 58 ROH: I was wondering if that had anything to do with it. I remember hearing about ethics reform a little over a year ago, so I was wondering if that is just one of those things that will take more time. RR: Yes, it will take time beyond my time to get, but whatever we do to get it going is worth it. Like I said, if you ask, "How do you measure your success?" There are no definitive measures, but if you touch the heart and mind of a half a dozen kids, that's good. Out of our first year we had one of our students that got an ethics scholarship and they worked on our committee. They went to Washington to be an intern at the White House for Obama. Another one went to work for congressman Bishop. The kids did get involved and they're doing some stuff. I can pick out two or three kids that I know we've had an impact on and will do something in politics. As I look back, when I was party chairman in Utah, Karl Rove was one of my interns. I didn't even know him. I didn't pay attention to him at that time. Another one was this guy Dave Hanson, who runs Orrin Hatch's campaign and I had lunch with him yesterday. Another one named Alan Peterson who did a nationwide organizational program for Richard Nixon and we had some guys from Ogden participating. Alex Hurtado, he was one of my best political friends and he got involved in this national organization for Nixon. I've seen a handful of people that have become involved and have been very successful, but it's got to be more. ROH: Is there anything else you'd like to add about ethics? 59 RR: There is one thing that's happening. Isaac Goeckeritz is putting together a film on ethics to promote the ethics up here. He has interviewed Jake Garn, Richard Wirthlin, Mr. Mack, the governor, and a whole lot of people talking about ethics in their business. Bob Garff talks about the ethics of his father in the automobile business. They're talking about ethics and he's preparing it and his wife said he is coming close and maybe by Christmas he will have it done and it will go on the air at KUED. I think it will be good enough that it will open up a lot of other things. Another guy that's in that is Dan Jones and he talks about ethics in the polling business. ROH: That will be good to see. Isaac Goeckeritz, for future reference, is a local historian, film documenter, a Weber State graduate, and one of Richard's relatives. RR: We were involved with the one on the Union Station, he did the one on the hill out in Uintah, "The U," he did one on homeless vets and now he's doing one on ethics. He's also doing other stuff. KUED loves him, they say he's got a great deal of talent and they're going to keep using him. ROH: Today is September 26, 2012 and we are in the home of Dick Richards. Present are Rebecca Ory Hernandez and Dick Richards. We are going to continue your oral history. The last time we spoke we talked a lot about the Ethics Institute at Weber State, so today I would like to talk a little more about present day and what is happening in your life. What are your involvements here in Ogden and in 60 the state related to politics? I know that you have been a guest on a few T.V. shows, so why don't you tell me a little bit about that? RR: I was on two Ted Capner shows, that's the Sunday afternoon broadcast. The first one after he read my book he invited me to come and talk to him and we talked about the things that are in the book. You've seen many of them. The other discussion we had just a week or so ago was on how we can cut down the cost of presidential campaign. This year's presidential campaign will probably cost 4 billion dollars. Each one of the candidates will raise about a billion dollars for their campaign and the political parties will make another half a billion. Then, 527 committees, or so-called super-packs, will each raise about a half a billion or more and that will put us at least $4 billion for the presidential campaign. The point that people don't understand is that the Supreme Court has rules that anyone can get involved in a campaign and spend all the money they want provided they do not coordinate with the candidate. All these committees raise money and you know what their message is going to be, they don't have to say vote for Obama or vote for Romney, you can tell what they're promoting. They get involved in it and that will bring the cost to over $4 billion. My proposal was that in order to prevent this limit the time, since you can't limit the money. Reduce the time of the campaign and allow the candidates to do their exploratory effort up until about the 15th of April in the election year. By the 15th of April they have to announce whether they will or will not be a candidate. If they say they will be a candidate, from that day on they can start raising money. They'll have to go through the primaries of the various states from that time before November. 61 If you're in a state with a caucus convention like we have, you might have your first caucus about three months after the candidate announces. We'd have the county conventions and the state conventions and if you had to have a primary you'd push the campaign between the Republican and the Democrat clear back to about August of September. They can't raise or spend a billion dollars between September and November, so it will really force the whole process to slow down to eliminate cost. Romney had been running for about 6 or 8 years and Obama has been running for 3 and it's just boring, wasteful and non-productive. The conventions and the debates they have are really about nothing and they reduce themselves to just petty criticism of the other guy. If you had only a three month campaign period they'd talk about what they want to do. They'd talk about the positive aspects of their campaign. ROH: Who profits from all of this money? RR: I made that point on television. The only ones that profit are the television stations, the radio, the newspaper, the campaign managers, and the advertising firms. The public doesn't profit by it. It's the guys that make money out of the campaign. Professional fundraisers get a percentage of the money they raise, the television people get money for everything they run, the campaign managers and the public relations people get 15 percent of what they spend on television. Just imagine a $200 million campaign on television and the guy is going to make about $30 million for putting the ads on the air. That's a big deal. ROH: So the candidates don't actually make any of the money they are raising? 62 RR: No, the candidates don't get it. It's those that are in the campaign business that get the money. Nobody likes to give it, but when you've got a campaign and they keep hitting you up for money, you feel the pressure and you make contributions. Everybody but the guys that make money on the campaign would like to see it shorter. ROH: Do you think that will happen in our lifetime? RR: It could, but I don't know whether it will or not. There has been a drive in the past for regional primaries or a national primary. If we had regional primaries, that would help a lot because then the candidate would have to talk to all of the American people instead of just eight states. Where they are now they go to Illinois and they talk about automobile manufacturing because that's the big issue there. They go to Ohio and they talk about the agricultural subsidies. It really isn't a national campaign, it is a series of little local interest campaigns. That's not good for the country. ROH: Are there any other shows that you've been featured on other than the one that you just mentioned? RR: No, I've been on his show a couple of times and I speak once in a while at the Hinckley Institute. I get invited more to the University of Utah to speak than I do Weber State, but I do participate on the campuses and I've been asked to talk to civic groups in town. My health is such that I have been turning them down. I don't know whether or not I'm going to feel well enough to do it. I just say, "No, I don't do that anymore." 63 ROH: Are you doing any local speeches during this campaign? RR: I write down suggestions for the candidates to send to them and they never follow those. What happens is that when a guy gets to be the campaign manager doesn't want other people telling him what to do. They look at guys like me and say, "Oh those guys are over the hill, they don't know the campaigns are different today." They don't pay any attention to us. They're wrong. I found my way to the national chairmanship by doing a good campaign on the state and local level and then on the national level. The principles of running the program we run is the same today as it was 20, 30, or 50 years ago. The average American has nothing to do with the campaign. They don't know the candidate. They don't meet the candidates and they don't even know who they are. If you put on a program where you give them the opportunity to participate in the campaign they're flattered by it. They want to do it. What we had done over the years was recruit people. For Richard Nixon, we set up a telephone operation and called people in the various neighborhoods and said, "I'm a volunteer for Richard Nixon, we think he's uniquely qualified to be president of the United States. We're doing what we can, will you help us?" A lot of people say yes and ask what they can do. We send them brochures and ask them to go door-to-door and tell the people about Richard Nixon and give him their personal endorsement. We know it flatters people and they think their job is very important. 64 Many years ago, one guy up in Portland called up after we went through the primary and said, "I did my work in the primary, but I'm 82 years old and legally blind. I don't think I can do it in a general election. So, you better get someone to take my place." He thought that the little role he had in the neighborhood was so important that if he didn't do it, there would be a problem so we'd have to get somebody to take his place. T The campaign chairman doesn't make any money if you do this volunteer work and neither does the television or anyone else, this is a very quiet campaign. The only person that makes any money on this is the guy that rents you the building and maybe the telephone company that has telephones from it. ROH: That's interesting. Are you doing any other kinds of present day consulting? RR: No, I'm actually retired. I'm helping a couple of little businesses, but I'm basically retired. I'm one of the 47 percent that's living off of the government program called Social Security. ROH: Can you share a little bit about the businesses you're helping? RR: I've been helping a company that makes a gasoline additive that reduces the pollution of your automobile and increases your gas mileage. Interestingly enough, my role is to get government people to look at it and try it out. I have found that people that work for the government in the motor pools don't care if you save money on gasoline. It's not out of their pocket. You can give it to them and ask them to try it out, but they don't do it. We talk about the need to increase 65 mileage and reduce pollution, but the guy that's running the motor pool at the state of Utah, Salt Lake and Ogden don't care. ROH: Is it corn-based? RR: No, it's not a food-based. It's made of algae. It does not affect the corn prices or the wheat prices. I use it in my car and I get five more miles per gallon in the city and on the highway. ROH: That's fascinating. RR: It's just a little tablet you put in the gas tank. It looks like a jelly bean and when you fill your gas tank you drop it into the tank. ROH: Is it available on the market? RR: Yes, but it's only on the internet. You can't sell it at the gas stations because it cuts down their gas sales they don't want that. I've got to give my wife credit that she put up with all of the things I've done and all of the moving. I have dragged her and my kids around the country time and time again and they've never complained. I think they've had a great benefit from doing it, but at the same time a lot of people complain if they've had to pick up and move every year or two. We never lived in a house for more than 10 years until we were 13 years in that house in McLean, Virginia and that's the longest we've ever been in a house. AR: Actually, we've been here now about as long as we've been there. It wasn't easy, I'll tell you. 66 ROH: Annette, you do history, right? AR: Yes. I've been doing that. I went to a meeting in Salt Lake on this new family search and they asked how long people have been researching and I'd been researching the longest. Over 50 years. I started when I was pretty young. Our oldest daughter was three months old when I got involved. ROH: Okay. Thanks Annette. Let's talk a little about present day politics, just a couple of quick questions. Are you involved at all in present day politics as far as on the national level? RR: Once in a while a candidate will call me and ask if he can sit down with me for a while and talk about the campaign and I give him some ideas. Otherwise, I'm really not involved. I was called by the campaign chairman for Governor Rick Perry and asked if I would be the Utah chairman for Perry and I said, "We've got to get passed John Huntsman first." I couldn't work for Perry as long as John Huntsman was in the race, but if Huntsman was out I'd be glad to help Perry out. I think he was a good candidate except he can't talk and answer questions. ROH: Other than Perry, are there any other names? RR: Well, I gave a little bit of advice to Hatch's opponent, but I said, "Orrin is a good friend of mine. I can't tell you how to run against him, but I can tell you what I think the issues ought to be." I spent an hour with Dan Lillianquist and I thought he was a good candidate, but he ran a bad campaign. ROH: What makes a bad campaign? 67 RR: If the campaign doesn't connect with the public and the voters it's a bad campaign. What you've got to do is talk about a message that they want to hear about and you have to have a good point of view on it. That's what these polls are about. They're polling all the time, "How do you feel about immigration? How do you feel about this or that?" The candidate tailors their message to appeal to those people. Unfortunately, it gets to be just a pandering deal to them. I respect Jon Huntsman because he said, "I'm not going to go to Iowa because I'm against ethanol subsidies. If I got to Iowa they're just going to "boo" me and I won't make any headway there, so I'm not going to go pander to them." I respect him for taking that position. Most of the candidates will go to one place and pander to them and it's just not healthy for the country and I think it's too bad. I'm 80 years old and my health isn't good, so I deliberately took myself out of a lot of this. I did join the tea party and I'll tell you why I like it. Number one, this is middle class America, the silent majority starting to make a little bit of noise. They're not looking for something special for themselves; they just don't want things special given to everybody else. They say, "We've got to cut down our spending." It isn't a question of raising more money, it's spending less money. When they go out and they have a rally of 15,000 people, there's no paraphernalia on the ground or a mess. They don't create a problem. It's clean, it's nice and these are good American citizens voicing their opinion. I read where people say, "The tea party is fading and they are not going to be all that critical in the campaign." They're kidding themselves. The tea party is alive and well and they will be very active in the campaigns when it comes closer to election time. 68 They don't campaign all year long, but they will be out working and they will have an impact. ROH: I think it's interesting that today that we have a new party. I think most people would find that interesting historically to look back and see the beginnings of this new party. Thank you for sharing. RR: One of the things that I propose in election reform is that they allow all parties to campaign in primary elections. Let them all get into the campaign and you'll wash out those that aren't really going to be a contender and you're going to end up with two or three. Maybe there would be three candidates in November, but there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe the guy that wins the presidency only had 47 percent of the population, but that's okay. Other people ought to have the right to voice their point of view and have the American people hear it. ROH: I had a young political science student ask me a question that they wanted me to ask you. He said that a lot of his friends are just not interested in politics at all. I would say between the ages of 19 and 26 are the age of his friends right now. He wanted me to ask you why they should be interested or get involved in politics because their perception of everything they see is negative. RR: That's unfortunate. A lot of people are turned off by the negative campaigns. I am. I'd get tired of listening to them. In fact, I asked Ted Capner if he watched all of the debates and he said, "No." I said, "Neither did I." I couldn't watch them all because they were not productive. I'd tell these young kids, "If you are really interested in politics, find a candidate that you like who's telling the story the way 69 you like it and join that campaign. If you get involved in it you will see your way through all of these things. You'll see how productive it can be." When you're only 19 years old, you're not thinking about retirement, medical expenses, or high taxes. You just haven't been out in the real world yet. As soon as you get a job and get your paycheck and you find out how much money was taken out for social security and worker's compensation and all these other things you think, "Hey, I thought I was getting $200 and I got $150." That shocks them and that's the eye-opener to these people. It kind of goes along with what Winston Churchill said, "When you're 19 years old, if you're not a liberal you've got no heart, but when you're 55 years old, if you're not a conservative you've got no brains." ROH: Right. That was what he asked, "How does it impact my life? All I'm trying to do is survive." He's actually got a wife and a child. He's working, going to school and he's involved on campus in leadership. He said, "I don't see how I can even be a blip on the radar of what's going on nationally." RR: Well, that's a story I tell in my book. I started out as the junior Republican chairman at Weber Junior College in 1952. In 1980, I was the Republican National Chairman. I climbed up. President Reagan said, "He's had every job on the way up. This is the first chairman I know that's worked his way through the state and national chairmanship positions." There's opportunity out there for these guys and in order to really understand it, I think you have to get involved in a campaign. The guy who's going to school and has a wife and kids says, "I'm 70 worried about my health insurance and if we have another baby we can't afford the cost of it." Then insurance becomes interesting to him. After a while, he gets hurt on the job or he gets sick, then social security, Medicare, and disability becomes interesting to him. These things become interesting as he grows older and he's facing that proposition. Young people don't look that far ahead. They think they're invincible and indestructible. They just don't see the problems down the road. ROH: Right. So let's talk a little bit about your family. I know you've got lots of children. RR: I've got five. ROH: That's a good-sized family. Are any of them involved in politics? RR: No, that is the interesting thing. My oldest son is a professor of philosophy at the University of Alabama. His name is Richard Albert Richards. He was named after Annette's father. He started out to be a dancer professionally and he danced around the world as a ballet dancer. He was quite good, but not good enough to be a star, and if you're not a star you can't make a living doing it. He finally decided that it wasn't for him and he went back to school to study philosophy. When he went back to school, he took the college ACT test and he got in the 98th percentile and he was offered a full fellowship at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. He got his degree there. He was a very good student and he had very good recommendations by the number one philosopher there and he went around to some of the colleges to seek employment and he ran into people that 71 said, "White men need not apply, we're going to hire a minority or a woman. So don't bother to apply." My oldest daughter, Julie Dockter, is married to a real estate salesman and they have four sons who are all doing very well. One of them is a businessman doing a lot of business with China and has made a lot of money. Another one is a medical doctor and his name is Dr. Dockter. Another one is in college studying something in physical sciences and the other one is a computer expert at Novell in Provo. My next daughter is married to a lawyer who's practicing law in New York. She's interested in politics, but she doesn't do much of it. She reads a lot and she gets involved a little bit but she has three kids and teaches early morning seminary and some other things. Her name is Jan Stevenson. My next daughter is Amy Hartvigsen and her husband is a landscape architect down in Alpine and they have four boys. The oldest is now on a mission. They have really talented kids. There is a lot of talent around my grandkids. My youngest son, Brian, works for the state of Utah in Utah Workplace. That's my family. I have ten grandchildren and eleven great grandchildren and four of those great grandchildren are part Chinese. My grandson, Chris Dockter married a Chinese girl from Taiwan. 72 ROH: I couldn't help but notice that you have a lot of art hanging in your home. RR: It's all family art. My father was the artist. ROH: Other people in your family are also artistically inclined. RR: Yes. My brother is an artist and he taught art at Dennison University in Dallas. My son, Rich, painted that big picture on the wall there. On the wall up there I've got paintings of my father, my brother, my daughter, and my son. We've all got a painting up there. My father is the best artist of the bunch. I have sisters that are very good. I think you saw the picture of the dogs in my bedroom. One of my sisters did that. There are a number of good artists in the family. The etching above the piano was by my brother. That big picture there is done by my son, Rich. The Abraham Lincoln was given to me by the Republican Party of Utah when I completed my term as state chairman. The star is a little thing that Richard Nixon gave out when he was elected president. The eagle is from the inauguration of Reagan and Bush. Geronimo is one that I just purchased. A friend of mine, Jay Taggert, former superintendent of the schools for Utah gave me the Teddy Roosevelt. ROH: Is there anything else that I might not have asked you that you would like to address? RR: I tell people jokingly that I used to be a genius, but now I'm just very bright. As a result of my heart operations, I have lost some mental acuity and I'm not as sharp as I used to be. My memory isn't as good. I have bad days so I'm limited. As a former National Chairman, I always have access to a seat at the national 73 conventions. They have one for former chairmen and I couldn't go so I asked them if my nephew could use my credentials so he went to the last convention. I went to every convention from 1968 until George W. Bush ran. I did not go then, but I went through Nixon, Reagan, and H. W. Bush. I've been to a lot of conventions. ROH: Is your nephew involved in politics now? RR: He's a lobbyist so he's a little bit involved in politics, but he likes to get involved. He has worked for candidates in the past. I don't have any children that wanted to be lawyers or wanted to be in politics. I wouldn't encourage them to be lawyers because I'm unhappy with the profession now. ROH: I was going to ask you if you encouraged them at all when they were younger to go into law or politics since they were living in Washington. RR: My girls were more enamored by living in Washington than my sons. They loved going to the White House and going to Kennedy Bunk Port and going to the parades and inaugurals and so on. They really enjoyed that. Everybody really loved being in that historical place, including me. ROH: Are there any stories about Ogden that many people might not know about or historical stories that would be just interesting to share? RR: Did you see the film that Isaac did on 25th Street? There is some historical stuff that I'm involved in on that 25th Street thing. When I went to law school, I drove from Ogden to Salt Lake and I had a couple of people that paid me to ride with 74 me. One of them was Annabelle Weakly and the other was Jane Larson. She was about 70 years old and she wanted to go back to school. She graduated from Weber College when she was 70 or 72. I got to know both of them fairly well. After I got out of law school I wanted to try lawsuits and I wanted to go to trial. If you want trial experience as a young lawyer you're not going to get it in a civil case. I went to the judges and said, "I want some trial experience so give me your criminals that don't have any money that are in jail and can't make bond." We didn't have a public defender system then. Over a period of one year they gave me 10 criminals and I tried the 10 felonies to a jury. I got 8 acquittals out of my 10 and that put me in business. I had lots of criminal business. In fact, it was too much. I ended up trying to get rid of it because I got tired of the criminals, but that's where I got my experience in the court room. I'll give you a quote from a guy if it won't sound politically incorrect, "One day I was walking along the street and this black guy came up to me and said, are you Mr. Richardson Richardson?" I said, "Well, I guess I am." He said, "Are you the man that represented Copeland Griffin?" I said, "I guess that's right." He said, "Well, let me shake your hand. You must be good. He was the biggest crook in town." Two of my defenses were for one guy and I won both of the cases and this impressed those in the black community. All my life I've been interested in politics, not for the sake of winning, but for the sake of helping the country. I've been concerned about the country. I see things that I don't think are right and I don't know whether I told you this story but when I was pretty new in the practice, we saw some misconduct and what I call 75 criminal activity on the part of elected officials in Weber County. I was instrumental in getting a grand jury called and ended up putting a sheriff in jail and some other things. These guys were doing a lot of things wrong. ROH: No, you didn't mention that? Who was the Sheriff? RR: It was LeRoy Hadley. I was representing a guy by the name of Ralph Anderson. He was a federal prisoner being housed in Ogden and waiting for his appeal in the tenth circuit. He appeared to have the run of the jail. Every time I'd go up to jail to see another client I'd see him hanging around. He wasn't in a cell, he was hanging around. One of these guys that had tattoos on his arm and had a pack of cigarettes rolled up in his shirt sleeve tried to hire me to represent him and he wanted an appeal to the tenth circuit. He was in jail for burglarizing a couple of post offices. He and his brother-in-law would drive a particularly adapted automobile up to these small post offices, break in, wheel the safe out and put it in the trunk of the car and drive up into the mountains and blow it up with dynamite and take out the money orders and postage stamps. He said, "Dick, I'll hire you. I'll give you $10,000 to represent me. I've got $60,000 stolen in postal money orders up in Pocatello. I can sell those for $20,000 and I'll give you half of it." I said, "No thanks. Not interested." Anyway, as time went on I talked to the guy and one day his wife came to me and said, "Mr. Richards, they're going to let Andy out of jail again this weekend. I'm afraid if he gets caught out of jail when he's supposed to be in jail the sheriff will say he escaped and he'll get an extra 5 or 10 years punishment." 76 When I found out they were letting him out of jail I said, "I've got to tell the judge. I am an officer of the court so I have to tell Judge Anderson, the federal judge in Salt Lake, what's happening here." I called the judge and he said, "You ought to call Judge Ritter." I said, "Judge, I don't like Judge Ritter and he doesn't like me so I'm telling you. I've now done my duty." As a result of what happened here a grand jury was called and the grand jury heard the evidence that the sheriff would let him out on weekends and he'd go burglarize someplace and share what he stole with the sheriff. The grand jury said to contact him and ask him to give some specifics about one of the burglaries that only the burglar would know. We'll find out if he's telling the truth. He said, "I knocked off the Red Pantry Café on the corner of Ogden Avenue and 25th Street. I got in by kicking in the back door with my foot and I left a shoe print on the door so I had to get rid of the shoes afterward. When I went in I got into the cigarette machines, I got into jukeboxes and I stole the stuff out of there. One thing that was very peculiar is when I got the jukebox money, there were a lot of quarters with red fingernail polish on them. I don't know what that meant, but that's what I took." They called in the man that owned the Red Pantry Café and said, "What about the money in the jukebox? Is there anything unusual about it?" he said, "Oh yeah, part of those quarters are what I call show quarters. I put red fingernail polish on the ones I put in so I get them back. When somebody saw other people put in for music they'd play music. They were show coins. I got to keep them and 77 the guy that owned the music company would take all the others." That was proof that my guy stole the money out of the jukebox. Finally, they put the sheriff on trial. When it was known that the sheriff let the guy out, his attorney said, "Sheriff, isn't it true that the reason you let him out was to take him to your home and show him what good law abiding citizens lived like and to get a little spirituality in your life?" The guy said, "No, that isn't true." The lawyer asked the question, "Well, why did you let him out?" He said, "Greed, Mr. Alsup. Greed." They convicted the sheriff and the sheriff was put in jail down in Davis County. ROH: What year was this? RR: I don't know what year it was. I went back to Washington shortly after that. The sheriff came up to me one time when I was alone and said, "Richard, you son of bitch. I'll get you for this." He threatened me, but I didn't say anything about it. He went to jail and some of the other public officials lost their jobs and it kind of cleaned up the community. The interesting part of that is that one of the guys that we had as our plaintiff in our action against the county officials was the lieutenant governor's father. He ran a janitorial supply place in Ogden on 25th Street. His name was George Bell. His son is now the Lieutenant governor. It took courage on the part of his father to act as a plaintiff in the case. It was a taxpayer's lawsuit filed against him because they were crooked. The

Issue 31.4 of the Review for Religious, 1972. ; EDITOR R. F. Smith, SJ. ASSOCIATE EDITOR Everett A. Diederich, SJ. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS EDITOR Joseph F. Gallen, S.J. Correspondence with the editor, the associate editor, and the assistant editor, as well as books for review, should be .sent to REVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS; 612 Humboldt Build- ~ 539 North Grand Boulevard; St. Louis, M~souri 63103. Questions for answering should be sent to Joseph F. Gallen, SJ.; St. Joseph's Church; 321 Willings Alley; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106. + + + REVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS Edited with ecclesiastical approval by faculty me~nbers of the School of Divinity of St. Louis University, the editorial offices beihg located at 612 Humboldt Building; 539 North Grand Boulevaxd; St. Louis, Missouri 63103. Owned by the Missouri Province Educational Institute, Published bimonthly and copyright © 1972 by REVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS. Printed in U.S.A, Second class postage paid at St. Louis, Missouri. Single copii~s: $1.25. Subscription U,S.A. and Canada: $6.00 a year, $11.00 for two years; other countries: $7.00 a year, $13.00 for two years, Orders should indicate whether they are for new or renewal subscriptions and should be accompanied by cheek or money order payable to REVIEW FOR RE~.IGIOUS in U.S,A. cur-rency only. Pay no money to persons claiming to represent REVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS. Change of address requests should include former address. Renewals and new subscriptions should be sent Io REVIEW FOR RELIGIOUS; P.O. Box6070; Duluth, Minnesota 55802. Manuscripts, editori-al correspondence, and books for review should be sent to REVIEW FOR RELIGIOIJS; 612 Itumboldt Building; 539 North Grand Boule-yard; St. Louis, Missouri 63103, Questions for answering should be sent to the address of the Questions and Answers editor. JULY 1972 VOLUME31 NUMBER 4 SUPERIORS OF SLOVAK RELIGIOUS WOMEN Memorandum to the Government of Czechoslovakia Editor's Note: Toward* the summer of 1968 .the eyes of the world and of the Church focused on Czechoslovakia as'the Dubcek rdgime tried to put a human face on Communism. More liberty was allowed, sentences' passed prev!ously against priests and religious wdie revoked, and the leaders of the Church there were reinstated. Then came August 21 - the Russian invasion and the beginning of the return to square one. Even after the invasion, assurances were given that there would be no return to the conditions of the fifties: Developments soon indicated.that this is" exactly wh, at was happening. ~, A last-ditch stand was made by the superiors~of religious women in Slgvakia with the hope of persuading the government not to be so drastic"in its treatment of the sisters; their protest was in the form 6f a Memorandum, the full text of~vhi~h is given below. TO the President of Czechoslovakia, L. Svoboda. To the ~Secretary General of the Czechoslovak Communist Party, G. Husak. To the President of the Socialist Government of the Slovak Republic, Dr~ P. Colokta. To the Secretary General of the Slovak Republic Communist Party, S, Sad0vskY. To the Minister of Health of the Slovak Socialist Republic, Mada~ Zvaro. To the Minister of Ecclesiastical Affairs, M, Valek. The provincial superiors of the orders and congregations for women in Slovakia take the liberty of presenting to you in the name of all their sisters the following memorandum: In the latter days of October and the first da3)~ of November we have been called personally before the Ministry of Ecclesiastical Affairs where Comrade Oavlik t~lked with us. The following information was sent to each one of us: (1) The activity of Slovak sisters will be limited to: (a) hospitals for mentally deficients; (b) hospitals for religious sisters and elderly priests; ~ (c) assisting the sick, probably limited at all times, by the Minister of Health, to what concerns psychiatry. ¯ (2) The following will be forbidden to sisters: (a) all help in the houses of pensioners; (b) all social activity for families; (c) catechetical instruction; (d) domestic work in presbyteries; (e) admission of novices who wish to join their institute, all those'who have already been admitted must be dismissed. *With the cooperation of Aid to the Church in Need; Our~ Lady of England Priory; Storrington; Pulborough;:Sussex, England, this Memorandum was published in Supplement to Doctrine and Life, January 1972, pp, 44-9. Review for l~eligious is grateful to both Aid to the Church in Need and the editor of the Supplement for permission to reprint the Memorandum. 518 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 " (3) Comrade Pavlik, already mentioned, vehemently condemfied the.claims of the sisters to the ownership of their dwelling places. It is easy to see that if these decrees are put into effect we shall disappear without trace from the face of Slovakia. What wrofig.haVe we done? What crimes can ~ve be accused of, we who were always ~at the service,of the p~ople, not by high sounding words but by silent and " often degrading work for the m~ntally deficient, the sick, and the destitute? Is it for these services that we merit this chastisement, which will end in the disappearance of our congregations? Are we dangerous individuals for the State and society, or are' we citizens with all the rights reserved ,to those who make up the Party of this State? -The constitution and the laws of the State are stiil in for~ce in our republic. What then is the law we have transgressed? Instead of obtaining 'rdhabilitation and reparation for the wrongs we have suffered since 1950 we are still subjected to deformations of the common law. Are we to be hunted again, considered as "outside the law" and forced to undergo an unjust discrimination? Many of our isi~ters have,lost their lives or their health through su.cl~ injustices. Will such aberrations be renewed? If the work and devotion of our sisters are highly appreciated throughout the civilized world, it should be the same here in Czechoslovak.ia, since our people are considered as among the most civi!ized in ~Europe. In subjecting us sisters to new vexations without a cha~ace to defend ourselves, you are certainly doing nothi.ng to better our position as the people wish it. We call upon the people for whom we work. It is the~ people who have invited us to develop our different activities in the parishes. Consequently, if the people send us away then we shall go. Ask the people, inform yourselves: ask the factory and farm workers if they still want us in charitable and social ,works and still want our help in religious instruction. It is the parents tfiemselves who have expressly asked US. In our towns and villages many people are abandoned, old people are left alone; perhaps the homes cannot accept them; perhaps they do not want to go! What human misery! There are so many such illustrations we cannot possibly descrit~e them! In some areas the sisters are the Only people prepared to devote themselves to caring for these neglected people and to give them a little comfort. we know of many cases of people who have lived, sometimes for years~ and who still live, lives similar to those of unwanted aninials. They end their daysclothed in rags, lying in filth, and living in a stagnant shelter; no State official has ever been in these hovels, but the religious have found the time and sufficient courage to go to the aid of these miserable people., naturally within the confines of the limita-tions imposed upon us! Is this help of ours a crime? Is it to be forbidden as one of the activitieS of which :socialism does not approve? We know of children who have lived in a dog kennel directly under the balcony of a mansion, and Who were found by a sister. We know of a girl covered in.~scabS, living like an animal on the'straw in a dark stable, stooped by her painful suffering, because her parents, preoccupied with money, neglected her. A sister freed her from her horrible environment and got her into the sanitorium at' Vysne Hagy. The local authorities never sent any health or sanitary inspector to these i~nhuman places - they are no longer interested. Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 519 In many other cases only the sister has found ways of hastening to these inhuman miseries. Must this be condemned? Let us now move to what ~concerns'public health: On 1 October 1969 a religious happened to go into a state hospital in Bratislava: She was welcomed by a nurse with these words: "Welcome, sister;~when are we going to have more sisters? Have pity on us and come and work with us as soon as possible! I cannot retire because there is no one to replace us in ou~ work. There is no one to take care of t.he heedy or to do night duty." She opened the door of a large ward'and said: "There is no one to care for these poor people. I cannot manage alone; I am worn out by work and age~; the young ones do not have the spirit of devotion and even less do they have the love'needed to give themselves to this service?' As if to confirm what she Said supper was brought just at that moment to a twenty-four year old student Who has lain in bed for two years not even able to lift a spoon to her mouth-. They brought the supper, but it did not concern them how she would eat it. The girl said: ="When there isa visitor, or if one of the other pati.ents comes to help me, then I can eat; otherwise no." We do not want to recall other experiences. We only want to inform you of our good will. Despite all that we have suffered up to now, there are sisters who still have sufficient love of their neighbor and the desire to do good for the abandoned, the destitute, the sick. ~ The ~ajority of us are still weak from fatigue and the hard life we have had up to nosy with the punishments of exile; but we could still do good With the help of the young girls who want to join us. But here again arise new and incomprehensible difficulties, created by your decrees. W'e have never been suppressed as religiou~ orders. In 1950 an arbitrary declaration of our governmental administration prevented us from admitting novices, we were expelled from our convents and dispersed to different places near the Bohemian border; you have sent us to work in factories and on farms and in the kolkhozes. At'the beginning these jobs were very difficult for us; yet we performed them conscientiously. After some time we were transferred to social institutions'where we looked after abnormal children. These poor unfortunates are .very de~r to us. sometimes more dear to us than to their own parents. The result of our efforts are testi.mony enough. We shall continue voluntarily in this field, for we can still do it, but for how long? We have had no recruits to strengthen our ranks for the last eighteen years. During the past year, after the Attorney-General declared that our orders were not suppressed and that as existing institutions we had the right to exist and to develop, we have accepted some young girls. It was Comrade Pavlik himself who said that the girls who were novices or postulants in 1950 could return and that we could receive them as postulants. Thanks to that we actually have some novices who wish to follow the example of devotion of the sisters and to continue the work of ~harity which we can do in our fatherland: caring for the physically and mentally sick. But later, following the conversation mentioned above with Comrade Pa~lik, we were told that all our novices are to be sent away and that we may not accept further postulants. We have asked: "By what law are we prevented from doing good?" He ieplied: "We are not discussing these things; when you receive an order you have to obey 520 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 it?' We heir discoui'ses propounded by the State authorities, by the President, by the Secretary General of the Czechslovakian Communist Party, and we recall that in the past~ Summer the President publicly declared on television: "As long as I am President I will not permit any transgression of the law." The Secretary General has declared several times: "We shall never return to the fifties." In 1950 we were uprooted from Slovakia and transferred to Bohemia. It was hard for us, but then the authorities in Bohemia mitigated our exile. Itis difficult for us to,readjust to these new privations. The social institutions in Slovakia are less well-equipped thfin in Bohemia. There they were Satisfied to have us to serve the people. Here, unfortunately, it is different; ".you wear a religious habit, so you are discriminated against." We hate to say this, but it is true. In the "charitable institutions" of our country we have not found love. They seem like prisons. The directors, placed there by the State, were paid to do nothingand to present obsta'cles to our charitable work. This period seemed to be ended, but unfortunately we now have the impression that the actual situation is in the process of leading to a new discrimination. We ask you, Mr. President, and Ministers, to allow us and the girls who want to follow, us, to live and work fdr our people, for those of our people who are suffering. We are happy that there are still girls with noble hearts wh~ desire to become mothers to the many children abandoned by their mothers, and many mentally retarded ones whose mothers disown them. There are ;till young girls who want to dry the tears of those who lie in hospital beds. Let us not stifle these last and rare ideals of our youth! For our part we e:~d~ort them to leave with these words: "Be merciful, sisters, to all those in need of aid." If all'that we have declared be judged as an offence then have the coui'age to suppress our institutions. We hope that this memorandum will meet with understanding and that we can continue pe~icefully to give help without bias to the social institutions, hosp!tals, and parishes. In this hope, we express our sincere gratitude. [There follow the signatures and addresses of the provincial superiors.] Editor's Postscript: News from Czechoslovakia confirms that the sisters' petition was not acceptable to the civil authorities and has not made them change their decision. The Slovak Minister of Culture for Ecclesiastical Affairs, Valek, was very categorical in a meeting with the bishops and told them substantially the same as Pavlik had told the sisters previously. The bishops would have to co-operate to execute the Minister's orders. This means that the Church representatives would become instruments of the government for the liquidation of the sisters. DONALD K. SWEARER and GROVER A. ZINN Monasticism .East and West, an Inquiry [Dr: Donald K. Swearer is Associate Professor of Religion at Swarthmore College; Swarth-more, Pennsylvania 19081. ~Dr. Grover A. Zinn is Assistant Professor of Religionoat Oberlin College; Oberlin, Ohio 44074.] ~ During* January 1970 a seminar on Buddhism and Christianity was ~held at Oberlin College, Oberlin, Ohio. Leaders of the seminar included Rev. Shojun Bando of otani University, Rev. Father George F. Simon of Sacred Heart Roman Catholic Church (Elyria, Ohio) and Professors Donald K. Swearer and Grover A. Zinn of Oberlin College. A variety of topics were discussed but the study focused on two areas: worship and liturgy; meditation and monasticism. It is this latter area to which this paper addresses itself. Stimulated by the encounter of representatives and scholars of both Buddhism and Christianity, our efforts essay no more than a suggestion or a prolegomenonotO a topic deserving'of more intensive and thorough study. All of us who participated in the seminar were struck by the broad range of similarities to be discovered in both the form and the intent of the institution of monastic life in Europe and Asia. Yet,. these similarities were to be measured in terms of the richness of dissimilarity. Our intent during the seminar and in writing this,brief article was not to equate uncritically the monastic traditions of Buddhism and Christianity. Rather, it" was to examine as sympathetically as possible this crucial aspect of these two great historical religions with the hope of reaching a better understanding of our own faith as well as the "faith of other men." In writing this essay we, as Christians, also intend to imply our conviction that Buddhism and Christianity need to benefit from each other more significantly than has been the case up to this point in time. In particular, we believe that the monastic tradition in the West, which has tended to become ever more peripheral to the mainstream of the life of the church, needs to be rediscovered' and reinterpreted in terms of the religious needs and spiritual chaos of our own day. We are convinced that part of this rediscovery and reinterpretation might better take place in the light of the monastic tradition in Buddhism where, especially in the Theravada and certain Mahfayfana forms (for example, Zen), the monastic life puts into proper perspective many of the central teachings and practices of that religion which has been aptly ~ermed, "The Light of Asia." With the tentative nature of this essay in mind, therefore, we propose to discuss certain aspects of the foundation of monasticism and the development of the monastic life first in Buddhism and then in Christianity. *The article first appeared in Japanese Religions, v. 7, no. 1 (July 1971), pp. 29-50. It is reprinted here with the permission of the editor of Japanese Religions and of the authors.~ 522 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 For most observers of Asian religions monasticism and Buddhism go-hand in hand. Anyone who has visited Burma or Thailand, for example, is struck by the presence of a seemingly endless stream of saffron-robed Bhikkhus oi monks around temple precincts, w~alking meandering streets with beggii~g bowls tucked under their arms or, more dramatically, taking part in social reform or political protest. Even in Japan where the presence of the Buddhist monk is not so visible the visitor cannot help but be awed and inspired by such magnificent monasteries as Daitoku-ji in Kyoto :and Enkaku-ji in Kamakura, or remember being awakened by the deep, gutteral chanting of Zen monks: Moreover, the student of Asian religions is quick to point out that from its inception Buddhism seems to have~ had a "withdrawn" tradition compatible with monasticism. He may even cite the legends surrounding the founder, Siddhartha Gautama, which depict the future Enlightened One renouncing the life~iof the householder in.order to find an ~inswer tO the Problem Of life's.suffering and transience. There are, of course, some difficulties with such easy and facile observations. In particular, it would be erroneous to equate monasticism as it is now seen in Buddhist countries with the quasi-institutional forms of early Indian Buddhism, and it would also be inaccurate to think of the Buddhist monk in any period of history as a recluse'. In regard to the latter, there has been a tendency among some Western scholars to make too sharp a distinction between monk and layman in Bt]ddhism. These scholars postulate that Buddhism is fundamentally a "monkish" religion, at least in its Therawida forms, and this implies for them a group of men who have withdrawn from the world to' pursue the religious vocation. In recent years, however, students of early Buddhism have been interested in,depicting the monastic institution more specifically as part ofits cultural society rather than apart from 'it. One such scholar is Sukumar Dutt whose books, Early BuddhisrMonachism (1924), The Buddha and Five.after Centuries (1955) and Buddhist Monks and Monasteries in .India (1962) have made a great contribution to Indian Buddhist studies. His principal theme seems to be that Indian Buddhism should be viewed not as the practice of .monasticism or as. a cult-sect but as a religion of the people,l Concerning the nature of the monastic institution in India a more detailed examination must be made for which we are particularly indebted to Professor Dutt. At the time Buddhism arosein northern India in the sixth century B.C. there had already developed a tradition of religious truth seekers or homeless wanderers, In the Hindu Brahm~inical tradition they are classed as Sanny~isins (those who have cast off possessions) and are known as the fourth or last of the Four Asramas. Although this class designation was a much later development, in .Upanisadic materials pre-dating Buddhism mention is made of a variety of wandering (Parivr~i-jaka) groups including Sanny~sins as well as Bhikkhus and others. These groups shared certain characteristics which would probably class them as a cult-sect group including an initiation ritual, allegiance to a teacher (Satthh) and his teaching (Dhamma), and subsistence by" begging or alms-seeking as a sign of world-renuncia-" tion. The beginnings of Buddhist monasticism are rooted in the soil of the tradition of these wandering almsmen; consequently, the eremitic monk typical of the earliest 1Sukumar Dutt, Buddhist Monks and Monasteries in India (London: Allen and Unwin, 1962), p. 24. Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 523 stratum of Buddhism has remained .the highest ideal, especially in. the Therav~ida countries of Ceyloh and Southeast Asia;We can imagine the organizational form of early Buddhism to be something-olike the following: the Buddha after his enlightenment wandered about the area ofnorthern India known as Magadha teachifig the truth he had'disco~)ered at his enlightenment; many were attracted b~ his teaching and became his' disciples; together they formed not an actual group with a particular locus but ai~ idealized community ("Bhikkhu-sangha of the Four Quarters") b~und together by~all~egiance to a common teacher and his Dhamma. The eremitic nature of the "early Buddhist community did not mean that they renounced contact with lay society,:~ On the contrary, the very fact of being almsmen meant they were depeiadent on the lay community for their physical well-being. Above all, the, followers of the Buddha's Dhamma were to seek out'that environment where they~co~ald best pursue their spiritual cultivation. AsP the Van.apattha Sutta 'puts it; monks should "dwell in a forest or ~ui't it, or dwell anywhere in ~i village, a township or a country, according as such dwelling is conducive'to his spiritual cultivation or n~ot.2" ~ The practices of the wanderihg truth-seekers included'one abetting the develop-ment of cenobitic habits, namely, the-three-inonth rain-retreat (X)assh~isa) during th~ monsoon' rains. Because of the difficulty of traveling about at this time congregations of monks wotild come- tbgether in temporary dwellings; perhaps in caves oi" residences donated by wealthy l~ndholders. D~ring this time particular forrhs of collective life graduall3~ emerged including the recital of a confessional of "faith" called the Patimbkkha° reconstructed 'from the P~ili" Dhammap~da as, "Forebearance or Patience is the highest~kind of penance -hnd Nibbana is decl~ted to be the highest. (object) by the -Buddhas - for he is never a mendicant who hurts others and he is not a'Samana who molestS: others. Abstinence~ from all evils, accumulation of all that~is good, and purification of one's own mind - this is the injunction of the Buddhas.''3 Other group cer~monies during~the rain-retreats~must have included initiation into the Bhikkhu-sangha and the Kathinaor presentation 6f new robes at the conclusion of the retreat. This period-~lso saw the b~eginning bf an oral ti'aditi0n in which -" teachings of the MaSter were'-memorized in particular settings and with sufficient hanemonic devices to insure their proper retention. Monastic life at this stage still largely emulated the,'mendicant ideal and ~t the conclusion of the three-month period the Bhikkhus went their own ways. As one might expect, however, what was intended to" be originally on13~ a temporary dwelling became more and more permanent. Thus, the ,h, wisa and ~,rama originally ¯ proposed" for limited use were transformed by degrees4nto year-round residential dwellings. There are various illtistrhtions of this' transformation in the P~li texts such as the distinction between monks with a more or less permanent residence at a particular center-(~,wisik~a) and those who came to reside there only temporarily. This trarisition probably.took place within two hundred years after the decease of ¯ the Buddha. The Bhikkhu-sangha becoming a semi-permanent and permanent establishment, obviously necessitated more elaborate living rules. The Patimokkha, initially a °confession of faith in the' Buddha's Dhamma, gradually' became a set of'rul~s. Eventually th~se were standardized into 227 in the Theravada canon although other 2Majjhima NikS.ya, 17. 3Dutt, Budclhidt Monks, p. 66. 524 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 references indicate that earlier lists contained fewer regulations. In sum, the Buddha'st.Truth or Dhamma was now complemented by rules of discipline or Vinaya. As Dutt so succinctly states it, the purpose of this code of discipline ". was ~to unite the Sang,ha on a new basis - not as of old on Dhamma alone and by affirmation and confession of faith in the injunctions (Sasana) of the Dhamma, but on a recoghized and accepted rule and standard of living for monks.''4 The Patimokkha,~while the heart of the monks' discipline, was encased in a body of "law" known as Vinaya. Probably the most impo~rtant a.spect of this law is that the Buddha is made the sole basis of authority. Hence, the Book of Discipline or Vinaya Pitaka contains many rules and regulations which gain the status of law by being promulgated by the Buddha in episodic sequence. With the evolution and elaboration of a unique communal law, the Bhikkhu-sangha became more and more a distinct entity both, in the sense, that it .was dis_tinguished from other Parivr~ijjaka groups such as the Jains and also as a distinct social entity to be afforded the same political protection as other aggregates within the body politic of ancient India. The wandering almsmen were no longer, in fact, the earlier typical follower of the Buddha, nor was the "Bhikkhu-Sangha of the Four Quarters" bound together only by a common faith, a practicable ideal. The Sangha was established as separate and distinct monk-settlements, in large part as a consequence of growth and maturity. Some of th( factors demanding the establish-ment of permanent monasteries included: a probationary period of training before ordination lasting up to ten years; the development of an exegetical and scholastic tradition demanding on-going centers of scholarship ;, and . the continu~ation and development of collective rites and ceremonies,s This did not mean that the mendicant ideal was rejected nor did it mean that this ideal was not practiced by some. However, Buddhism in India prospered in temples ~ and monasteries and continued to exercise a considerable influence in India through such great universities as Naland~i, long after it had been virtually assimilated into non- Buddhist traditions. - The Bhikkhu was the bearer of Buddhism to other parts of Asia - Ceylon and Southeast Asia, Central Asia, China, Korea and Japan. Many diverse forms evolved; yet the monk and monastery in varying manner of cultural dress have never lost their central place. They continue to be the embodiment of the universal truths and ideals of the Buddha and, historically, they have continued as the principal preserver of Buddhist culture. Throughout much of Asia where Buddhism spread the monastery became a massive landholder, engaging ~he monk in many of those very tasks the early Bhikkhus in India had renounced. Yet, at the same time, monasteries degeloped into some of the finest educational institutions in Asia and also afforded quiet retreats where, those who sought.most seriou.sly toemulate the Buddha-ideal practiced various forms of contemplation and meditation. Today in Asia these generalizations are still largely t~.ue. In Southeast Asia, for example, one finds monastic centers which include many ritualistic and cultic functions but which also house Bhikkhu universities and have rows of small cells where the most dedicated monks seek seriously to experience the Truth "seen" by the Buddha. It is.true ttiat the monk is becoming involved in politics (e.g., Vietnam, Ceylon, Burma) and that he is being trained in a variety of community development 4Ibid,, p. 71, 5 lbid,, p. 92. Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 525 skills (e.g., Thailand); however, it is also true that in some areas there has been renewed interest in the practice~ of Buddhist meditation both among monks and laymen. In Japan the monastic ideai has been continued by various Buddhist sects but-none has been more important than Zen-shu. In Zen some of the themes of Buddhist monasticism as it developed in India underwent additional transforma-tion. In particular, Zen came to stress the~impottance of work and service in the mundane and practical aspects ~f'life. Many students of Zen account for this particular emphasis in Zen as a consequence of the practical attitude of the Chinese mind and draw such distinctions as that of D. T. Suzuki's: "In India the monks Ere mendicants; when they meditate they retire into the quiet corner from worldly Cares; and inasmuch as they ~are supported economically by their secular devotees, they do not propose to work in any menial employment such as Chinese and Japanese monks are used to. ,6 Even though one can hardly, dispute the transforma-tion that Buddhism underwent in China an.d.Japan, this particular distinction is, we believe, overemphasized. Monks in Therav~ida countries also perfqrm manu~il labor such as housekeeping chores around the monastery alth0.ugh w.6rk probably does not have the same degree of "sanctity" Dr. Suzuki claims for Zen Buddhism. It must also be pointed out thai mendicancy is also prac.ticed by Zen monks to a limited extent and still remains one of th~ ideals of the monastic life. Whereas Zen may differ from Therav~ida forms of Buddhism to the degree in which it ac.cepts the mundane world, the centrality of meditation (Zazen) for Zen seems to be a radicalization of the practice of meditation in Theravfida monastic-ism. If the practice of meditation in Therawida monasteries in S. E. Asia were compared with Rinzai Zen monasteries in Japan, one would conclude that meditation in Zen monasticism is both more important and more rigorous. It is also interesting to note that Zazen forms part of the p~:obationary or testing period for the Zen monk, whereas in Theravfida Buddhism the typical monk has probably° practiced little or no meditation. In the first portion of this essay we have attempted to make some generalizations about the foundation of Buddhist monasticism as well as various aspects of monastic life. Important observations have, ind~e~i, been omitted; however, one concluding remark must not be left out. The Buddhist monk and monastery are not qnly important as embodiments of the ideals of Buddhism or as the principal bearers of Buddhist culture. They are of principal religious benefit to the layman both as ~ symbol of an ideal as well as a type of.repository of merit. In Therav~ida countries, for example, the services performed by the layman for the monk are a principal means of earning merit and in Japan the model to which every Zen monk commits himself is that of the compaSSionate Bodhisattva whose mercy (Ka'runfi) extends to all sentient beings. It is~ true, as observers of Asian religions point out, that monasticism and Buddhism go hand in hand; however, neither in its historical development in India nor in its present form in Southeast Asia or Japan, can Buddhist monasticism be thought of simply as a means of withdrawn life for the single-minded pursuit of spiritual goals. Such a picture is true neither to ideal nor historical forms of Buddhist monasticism. 6Essays in Zen Buddhism, First Series (New York: Evergreen, 1961), p. 316.' Review for Re!igious, Volume 31, 1972/4 II A monk is a man who has been called by th~ Holy Spirit to relinquish the cares, desires and ambitions Of other men, and devote his entire - life to seeking God.7 In the Christian tradition the monastic life in all 6"f its varied forms has continually presented itself as the truest response to Jesus' radical demand th'at one break with the "world" - its ~mores, a.ttitudes~ and institutions - and devote himself to God and His kingdom. The d~bate Continues wi{hin the Christian tradition'.as to the righ,tness of this claim¯ There are equally good reasons for assuming that Jesus meant to teach an attitude.of mind and not specific actions bye. means of vivid examples such as his commar~d to the rich young man to "sell all~ that you'possess and give it to the poor" (Mt 19:21). Whatever the present judgment of Biblic~al exegetes a'nd theologians, the early Church was of the firm opinion thai J~sus' word~ were to b~ taken as counse!ing a specific lifestyle which included ch~istity and poveroty - for th~ l~ew, if not for 'the many. " This early Christian asc.,,eticism was practiced within the local community and was a matter of'individual lnltlatwe. Every congregation most l!kely had its virgins, continent males, and dedioated widows who participated in thEsocial and liturgical life as far as their asceticism allo~ved. Their renunciaiion was frequently accom-panied by charitable works and care'of the poor. Some of the sterne'f ascetics b'uilt hermitages" near their rill,ages or lived in abandoned tombs~ off the outskirt~'°of towns. They' continued as part of the comm'unity by w.orking in the fields for hire and using their ~arnings to 6uy food and give alms. Inclusi who were-l~cked. ¯ . o in cells were, of course, dependent upon the Cdmmunity for all heeds. ¯ During the latter half of th6 third cent'ury A. D. a radical altera'ti6n'of the asc6tic ideal took place, with the result that Christian monasticism' was born. Men felt it" was no longer possible to remain within society or the Church and totally to devote themselves to the ascetic ideal. The Desert and not the City "offered a proper environment for the s.truggle for spiritual perfection. I.ncreas~ing numbers of individuals forsook society, farhilie.s, and friends to flee into the desolate deserts of Egypt and elsewhere.o T~h.ey sought solitudd. Thus the ascetic became a monk (monos = alone). The life of these first monks, the'Desert Fathers, focused on'foui"points: the isolation of the hermit cell; severe bodily asceticism, ofte~ile.aving th.e body. met6 skin and bones; striving to attain a state of continuous'prayer and devotion; ahd engagement in work, usually "simple tasks such as plaiting palm leaves and weaving baskets. In all of this the obje~l~'was to reduce bodily needs and the Z'materiality" of human existence, with a consequent enhancement of the '~spifitual" nature of man. The idea of work has playe.d, a constant and important role in Christian monasticism, whethdr eremitic of cenobitic. The early monks had no intention "of-becoming mendicants o~ depend.e*ht~ upon gifts in any wa3~. it was a niatter of pride that they lived I~y~the work of their hands. In ' the 'cenobitic i"cbmm~nities of 7Thomas Merton, The Silent Life (New York: F~rrar, Strahs and Cudahy, 1957), p. vii. ~This portion of the paper ~s particularly indebted to studies by three Benedictine scholars: Jean Leclercq, The Love of Learning and the Desire for God (New York: Fordham University, 1961); Cuthbert Butler, Benedictine Monachism (2nd ed.; London: Longmans, 1924); and David-Knowles, From Pachomius ro Ignatius (Oxford: Clarendon, 1966). See also H. B. Workman, The Evolution o3~ the Monastic ldeal (London: Epw'orth, 1913). ~ Review for Religious, Volum~ 31, 1972/4 527 Pachomius, Basil, and Benedict work continued to have an important rble, both as an ascetical discipline and a~ a~means for- the support of the community. For Basil the operation of schools, orphanages, hospitals, ~and. other institutions of service provided monks the opportunity' to exercise the virtue of charity beyond ttie bounds of the monastic community. 'Today, as in the medieval period', the "work" of Benedictines varies greatly from the manual labor in the'~'fields in which the barliest Benedictines were engaged; it extends to te'aching,omiSsion work, scholarly researclf, work in arts and crafts, or even pastoral care. It is in the area of"work" that ~some of the ambiguity of the monastic, vocation is revealed, In working to support themselves, the desert hermits sought to be independent~ yet they weie dependent upon the very cities from which they had,fled, for there the goods they made were sold. Likewise, the ,."work" of Benedictines often must qarry them beyond the bounds of the monastic .enclosure, an act which.sets up,a tension with the fundamental vow of stability and the intention to flee the world to seek only God in theY"paradise" of the monastery. ~ . 'The new monastic movement shows, several characteristics associated with sect-type movements by sociologists of religion. The founder,of the monasti~ life was~ not Jesus, the founder of the religion. His teachings contain passages which were isolated and interpreted as. calling for the :monastic life, but the man who stands as the "founding father" ~and archetypal monk is St. Antony (2617-356). Athanasius.' Life of St. Antony was decisive, in promoting and shaping the monastic ideal in. East and West.8 At a time when the Church was establishing the.three,fold norm of Scripture, episcopate, and creed we find in the monastic movement an attenuated use of Scrfpture. It is_cited, but in a fragmented~ proof-text manner. Otherwise, it functions very much as a "sacred" object, memorized in.toto as an ascetic act of pious deed; at other times invoked, via the singing of Psalms, as, a charm against the evil demons. The locus of authority was not situated in, a written text and its interpretation. It was, rather, vested in certain charismatic figures: the elder monks of the desert,especially St. Antony. The .~'Fathers" are sources of life and knowledge, Frequently in the Sayings of the Fathers a would-be disciple approaches a master with the request "Speak to me a word; Father, that I may live." .The tradition upon which the monks relied was of their own creation: The Sayings of the Fathers contains sayings and brief anecdotal narratives of the triumphs and tragedies of the monastic vocation.9 Circulating orally, the sayings and narratives embodied the norms of the movement, such as they were, in, a graphic and easily remembered form. Throughout the history of Christian monastic-ism these sayings along with the. eyewitness account of Egyptian monasticism by Palladius (Lausiac History) and the Conferences of Cassian,1 o claiming to represent the Eastern fathers, provided one of the touchstones to which successive .monastic reformers have° referred. In the West the other touchstones were the Rule of St. Benedict and the practices of the "apostolic community" in Jerusalem in. the firSt years as described by the Book 6f the Acts of the Apostles - especially the 8Trans. by Robert T. Meyer, in "Ancient Christian writers," v. 10 (Westminster: Newman, 1950). 9Owen Chadwick, trs., Western Asceticism, "Library of Christian Classics,',' v. 12 (Phila-del1p0hLiaau: sWiaces Htmisitnosrtye, rt,r S19o 5b8y) ,R popb. e1r3t -T1.8 M9 ewyiethr, e"xAcnelclieenntt i Cnthrroidstuiacnti oWn.riters," v. 34 ('Westminster: Newman, 1965). On Cassian, see O. Chadwick, John Cassian (2nd ed.; Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1968). 528 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 common sharing of goods. Never in the early period does it seem that Jesus was claimed as an ideal.monk or the direct founder of a monastic community. The eremitic life remains to this day the ideal monastic vocation in the Eastern Church, where monasteries may resemble a conglomerate of individual cells rather than the communal facilities of a Western Benedictine house. Very early in the history of the monastic movement the rigors of isolation and the loneliness of separation were mitigated by the formation of loose and informal communities in the Egyptian desert. Indications are that the first communities were made up of the hermitages of disciples built near the cell of a particularly renowned desert ascetic. The creation of community was incidental in this case. The monks were there $o gain instruction from the master and then set off on their individual quests for spiritual perfection. Nevertheless, the way was paved for a new form of the monastic life, a form in which the individual monk would be isolated in the withdrawn community rather than in personal separation. The monastic enclosure, not the hermit's cell, gradually became the symbol of the aloneness of the monk. It was the aloneness of a community of individuals committed to a life of asceticism, meditation, prayer, work, and finally, committed to obedience to a Rule of life. The first community organized with a rule was that of Pachomius, who had lived as a hermit, but soon realized the benefits, psychic, spiritual, and physical, of a monastic community. The Rule prescribed living conditions, dress, obedience to the abbot, communal worship to be celebrated weekly, and a system of.houses grouping monks following a single trade in a single dwelling. Work continued to be an integral part of the monastic life. The cenobitic form of life was further developed and refined by St. Basil, who like Pachomius had lived as a hermit. He rejected that life as not allowing for o.the practice of Christian charity. He built monasteries near cities so that the monks might serve society through the operation of schools, orphanages, poor relief, and other works of charity. The Basilian Rule dominates the monastic life in the Eastern Church today, with less emphasis on service, to the community. It mitigated the ascetic rigors of the desert ide.al but provided that a monk might, with the consent of his abbot, leave the community to pursue spiritual perfection as a hermit. Today many eastern monasteries have hermit cells attached. In some 'cases the monks leave food for hermits li~,ing in near-by caves. The Rule of St. Benedict is generally accepted as the most perfect presentation of the cenobitic ideal. Originally written only for the 'local monastery of which Benedict was abbot, it gradually became the dominant Rule for monastic life in the Western Church during the Middle Ages. ~While it enjoined the traditional practices of chastity and poverty, the Rule required three explicit vows by the novice upon acceptance by the¯ community:., obedience, stability, and conduct of lifeJ~ Obedience meant obedience to the abbot in all things and to the Rule which laid down the conditions of life in the monastic community. Stability meant that the monk was to remain a member of the local monastic community which he entered upon profession of his vows. Conduct of life meant a continual struggle to acquire virtues and eradicate vices. From the ascetic point of view Benedict's Rule was moderate. Excessive mortification was frowned upon and discipline was focused especially in the idea of obediefice, which was the outer manifestation of true hum1 iIlsietey Bauntlde ro, Bf etnheed ircetinneu Mnocniaactihoisnm ,o Cfh .s IeXl.f-will.12 These latter two attitudes ~,ere the 12Ibid., p. 140. Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 529 essence of asceticism for Benedict. The roots of the Benedictine monastery were set deep .in the soil of the land upon which it rested. The vow of stability was a major contributing factor, so that the monastic enclosure became an enduring fact of the~ local countryside from generation to generation. Monks were not to wander about constantly seeking ever-more-suitable spiritual or physical environments. The agricultural base of the monastery's life also strengthened this bond with the land. Originally, work in the fields, workshops, and other occupations was meant to make the monastery self-sufficient and independent. Ideally the monastic enclosure encompassed the fields, sheep-runs, mill, orchards, brewery, and all other necessary appurtenances to provide for the brethren, who were to leave the monastery only under extreme circumstances. Dependence upon the land within the feudal structure of Medieval Europe often brought this ideal into .conflict with a far different reality. In light of the obligations which went with the possession: of land, monasteries and parti-cularly abbots often found themselves owing knight service to nobles, administering justice in courts, collecting tolls, and generally participating in the feudal structure as any other land-holder might do. The holdings and consequently the corporate wealth ~of many houses increased due to the pious practice of giving property to monasteries in order to obtain forgiveness of sins and to insure prayers for one's self and family. Central to Benedictine life is the insistence upon the community as the essence of monastic life. The monk enters a community of like-minded men who have been "converted" from the world to monastic life. His life bounded by the enclosure, the monk shares all aspects of his life: meals are eaten in common, worship is in common, and monks sleep ino one large room, with younger monks interspersed among elder brethren. Such a life stands in direct antithesis to the eremitic ideal of the Egyptian desert monks. There are three primary activities: manual labor; celebration of the liturgy; and devotional reading. Benedict considered the liturgy the most important of the three; nothing was to interfere with it, but all activities claimed proportionate shares of the monk's time. Later developments stressed ones of the three at the expense of the others. The abbey of Cluny (tenth century) so extended the length of the liturgical offices that little time was left for anything else, and the function of the Benedictine monk was taken to be that of chanting the liturgy - and in doing this the monk carried out a religious act in6umbent upon all, but impossible to fulfill for many because of other obligations. The monks prayed for all men. The Cluniac monks were free to pray for they had serfs to work in the fields. In.the twelfth century the Cistercians sought to restore the austerity of the primitive Benedictine ideal, reducing the liturgy, adopting a plain style of life and architecture, returning to the practice of labor by the,monks, and isolating the cloister. In urging devotional reading, Benedict planted a seed which grew into a far different' plant than he intended, for Benedictinism has tended to be an erudite monasticism. Benedict meant for his monks to be literate for they had to .read Scripture and the fathers and to participate in the liturgy. But he never envisioned them as scholars: Reading was to be devotional and focused on meditation and personal spirituality. In the cultural chaos accomPanying the decay of Roman institutions after the fifth century monasteries not only were islands of calm in an often turbulent world, they also were the only centers of learning, They preserved Scripture and commented upon it; they also preserved the Latin classics. Monastic devotion to learning made possible the founding.of Western culture upon.the basis 530 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 of the literature of classical antiquity in later times. This was no small contribution for the cloistered life to have made to Western civilization. ~ Monks who were missionaries and monks who were scholars bore the burden of Christianizing and of educating Europe during the Carolingian epoch. More recently the Congregation of St. Maur (17th century) produced some of the great ecclesiastical scholars of the period and edited hundreds of ecclesiastical texts. Presently, one thinks of such eminent Benedictine scholars as the late Cuthbert Butler, Jean Leclercq, and David Knowles. They represent vital, personal devotion to the Benedictine ideal and. dedication to scholarship that knows no superior. Thus faLwe have said little of the role of contemplation and meditation in Benedictine life. At times it has been obscured by other "active" endeavors: missionary work, educational enterprises, almshouses, hospitals, farming, and the like. Yet these remain incidental to the primary goal of the monastic vocation, which is the contemplative quest. Benedictine monasticism had .and continues to have a strong contemplative tradition. Yet Benedictine practice has united the "active" life with the "contemplative" life of withdrawn reading, prayer, and meditation in such a way that the Black Monks appear to.be more "active" than contemplative. The best expression of the contemplative life is found .in two twelfth-century reform movements which remain vital orders within the Catholic Church: the Cistercians and Carthusians. Both originated in an upsurge of spiritual renewal during a period which has been characterized as open to new experiments and fresh initiatives. The Cistercians sought to re-establish the strict observance of the Benedictine,Rule, without any of the laxity, amplification of the liturgy, pursuit of secondary aims such as education, or involvement with secular society and government which characterized muchof Benedictine pra6tice in the medieval period. The life was, and is, one of simplicity, frugality, isolation of the monastic enclosure, and dedication to meditation and the contemplative life, set within the context of the common life of the Benedictine Rule. It is within this tradition that the late Thomas Merton followed his vocation. The Carthusians returned to an earlier ideal in their renewal of spirituality. The Carthusian enclosure is called a 'desert' and rightly so, for the Egyptian hermit tradition inspired it. The sides of the cloister are lined with individual hermitages; each monk lives in a small two-storied building with an enclosed garden, a workshop, and ~;alk-way on the.ground floor, and with a cell above for study, sleep,,and private meditation. The Carthusian spends by far the larger part of the day in isolation, working at a trade, praying, reading, or ~vriting. Thrice daily the brethren gather for common worship and on set occasions the community goes for walks in the countryside, gathers for discussion, or.shares a common meal; the isolatiofi of the desert is real, but it is wisely mitigated. Of all the orders of the Catholic Church, Carthusians alone can make the claim to be "never reformed, because never deformed." It is within these monasteries that one finds contempla-tion pursued most fervently within the Christian tradition. The Carthusians, like all monks, engage in work, as individuals and as a community. Earlier we observed that the monastic life now plays an attenuated role in the life. of the Church. One must return to the Middle Ages to find a presence and influence of the monastic vocation~ equal!rig in any way the present state of Buddhism. Nevertheless, the present surge of vitality within Christian monasticism must not be overlooked. Monasticism may be a phenomenon on the fringe, 6ut it is a vital fringe. Thomas Merton and the community of the Abbey of Gethsemanirepresent a renewal of Cistercian spirituality, while the bold experiments in art, architecture, Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 531 educ~ition, and liturgy at St. John's Abbey, Colleg~ville', Minnesota, demonstrate the vitality of the BenediCtine ideal in several areas. Monastic life" on the European Continent continues to bear ::fruit in education, scholarship, music, and spiritual renewal. One thinks of the leadership ~f Downside Abbey in England; the scholarship at Solesmes arid Beuron, Belgium; the Abbey of La PiErre qui Vire, France, where Benedictines of the 'Primitive Observance combine art ~cholarship with the creative artistic 'c'i'aftsmanship of L 'Atelier du Coeur MeUrtry; and" La Grande Chartreuse, the mother house of the carthu~sian Order, where the silent life of meditation has again~ been'restored. ~ : In our examination of~the .historical roots and some salient features of monastic-ism in Buddhism and Christianity, no attempt has been made to force comparisons. Nevertheless, in examining the historical record impartially one notes some striking, if obvious, similarities. In,,both:,Buddhism and Christianity the monastic life claims to represent an id6al form of .religious commitment~ In Christianity it offers a response to Jesus' call to forsake all for God and His Kingdom; in .Buddhism, the monastic community affords the ideal milieu for pursuing the highest goal, namely, Nirvfina. " ~ In both traditions eremitic and cenobitic form~ of the monastic.life exist. The ,more primitive form of the monatic.life is that of the single individual, isolated in a hermitage (Christianity)or wandering-as ,a mendicant (Buddhism).~An immediate distinction which springs to mind is the differing attitudes toward mendicancy in the early traditions. Buddhist monasticism began as a mendicant order; Christian monasticism in its eremitic and cenobitic forms strongly rejected begging and alms; monks were more likely to give alms and minister to the poor than to be the objects of such a ministry. Only with the advent of an urban economy and the need for a new style of renunciation and apostolic ministry in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries did mendicancy become an expression of poverty - and with that a new form of renunciation was formed in Christianity: the mendicant orders, which have much in common with the monastic orders, but deserve to be distinguished carefully from them as well. The necessity for rules governing the common life of monastic communities led to the development of sets of discipline which, in turn, were partially responsible for the emergence of different monastic orders. Ther~ are certain typological similarities between the degree of tension existing between the monastic commu-nity and the secular world. In neither Christianity nor Buddhism, however, can monasticism be viewed in isolation from its cultural context. On the contrary, in both religions the monastery has been at one point or another in history, a principal bearer of the cultural tradition in which it was enmeshed. The relationship of the ¯ monastery to the broader religious tradition with which it is identified is a complex phenomeflon. However, in both traditions there is a strong tendency to associate the monastic life with the truly religious life. In Buddhism, although some of the earlier scrit3tures (e.g., Thera and Therigathas) testify to the realization of Nirvfina by laymen and women, the monk soon became the religieux par excellence. Also in Indian, Buddhism the monastery came. to represent or be associated with the main stream of the tradition. In ,Christianity there is no exclusive claim to salvation through monastic profession, but in the medieval period the monastic vocation was the only one judged to be "religious"; all other occupations, including that of the 532 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 parish.priest, were secular, i.e., involved with the world. The priest, while set apart from the laity by his sacramental powers, was nevertheless one. with them in this particular: neither he nor they had been "converted" from life in the world to life in the monastic habit. It must be said, however, that in Christianity the monastic life continues tO claim superiority in its fidelity to Jesus' message. Both Christian and Buddhist monasticism exhibited certain tendencies associated with sectarian m. ovements at the point of their origin. In both, the inonastic life was integrated into a wider'tradition, with more or less success, thus allowing for diverse expressions of religio~us experience and commitment. It remains true, however, that in Buddhism monasticism has remained to this day a substantial bearer of the core of the tradition. This can be illustrated in many ways, but perhaps it will suffice within the limits of this essay to point out that the archetypical monk for Buddhism is the Buddha himself, whereas for Christianity it.is St. Antony, not Jesus. Although in this study we have examined only the origins and some aspects of ~the, development of monasticism .East and West, our concern is not merely historical. Rather, both implicit and explicit in our study is the value of the vision which inspired the monastic ideal in both Buddhism and Christianity. In this age of rapid, change in which the moral values and religious truths of an earlier day are being challenged and crumbling, there is a strong possibility that the well-spring for religious renewal: will not arise from secular models but from the most "radically" religious. Should this be the case, the precedent of monastic life East and West will offer an important stimulus and suggest patterns for lives of holiness. PROTESTANT AND ECUMENICAL RELIGIOUS LIFE [Editor's note: The following three essays originally appeared in Unit~ chr~tienne, February 1972, and are presented here in English translation with~the kind permtssion of the~editor of Unit~ chrktienne and'of the respective authol's. Specific page references to the issue of Unit~ chr~tienne will be given at the beginning of each essay. The English translation of the threat essays was done by R. F. Smith, S.J., of the.~Department bf Historical Theology; D~vinity School of St. Louis University; 220 North Spring Avenue; St. Louis, Missouri.] THE SISTERS DEACONESSES OF REUILLY By Sister Elizabeth~, Deaconess of. Reuilly 4, [This article appeared on pages 30-40 of Unit~ chr~tienne, February 1972. Sister Elizabeth's Address is: 95, rue de Reuilly; 75 Paris 12, France. I ~ The Community of the Deaconesses of Reuilly came into ex.ist.ence in P.aris in 1841. The Community was born as a small thing, but its date deserves to-be remembered because it represented the first attempt at a renewal of ~om. munit3~ life in French Protestantism. The beginnings of this foundation were not able to flc;urish perfectly in the nineteenth century, for the centu~ was too deeply haark6d " by confessional tensions. But with' the ecumenical movement, there cam~ a mbre favorable time. In its deep attachment to.its origins, the Community is untiringly seeking in its origins the meamng of its calling and the secret'of the renewals which pr.epare, and hasten "the coming of the kingdom of ~God." THE ORIGINS The historical events in which the birth of Reuilly is inscribed were (1) essentially, the religious Awakening at the beginning" of the century and (2) secondarily, the social crisis opened by the'industrial era. The spiritual motivations that were involved were (1) an ardent thi~rsting for holiness anda consecrated life and (2) a vision of the Church structured by obedience. Intertwined with all these were the providential circumstances in which the hand of God could be seen=The vocation of the founders (Antoine Vermeil and Caroline Malvesin), their meeting, their mutual accord, the astonishing receptivity of the evangelical Parisian milieu, the finding oi~a favorable implantation site in the midst of the workers' section, the first apostolate of the sisters in the service of women who had just left prison. ¯ The Awakening" ., As Pastor G.Lagny ha's clearly shown,1 the Awakening which aroused.Protestant-ism at the beginning of the nineteenth century was a part of the general movement of Christian renewal which vivified the entire Church - and in a special inanner French Catholicism as it emerged from the trials of the Revolution and the Wars of the Empire. What came forth' was a religion of,the heart in reaction to the rationalism of the Century of the Enlightenment - a religion touched by an: affectivity that romanticism might make suspect, but it was full of spontaneity and warmth and rich in works of all kinds and in innumerable sacrificeS, It was an authentic movemenVof the Spirit. '° 1 In his 1958 work Le R~veil de 1830 ~ Paris et les origines des Diaconesses de Reuilly. "534 Review for Religious,,Volume 31, 1972/4 For the Protestant Awakening historians give a precise date and place 6f origin: 1817 in Geneva with roots, however, going back into the 18th century. If th~ Awakening was begun in Geneva by Robert Haldane, a Metho'di's~ from S6otland, the t~rrain had been prepared by a small Moravian community which had been frequented ,by theological-students. Thus it was that at the origins of the ~w°akening, are found the~ Methodists, those incomparable evangelizers, and the eMoravians,-apostles of the common life and precursors of Christian unity. -- . A native of Nimes and Sprung from old Huguen.ot ~tock, Antoine Vermeil (born in 1799) was a student at Geneva during the years of the Awakening; and his piety was deeply affected by it. Having become pastor, his resolutely evangelical faith was joined to a grefft love of the Reformed Church. For sixteen years at Bordeauxhe 'showed himself gifted in preaching, in teaching, in the care of souls as well as in the coordination of multiple apostolic and charitable activities. In the latter, however, he lamented a lack - the absence "of Sisters of Charity who do so,much good in the Roman Church.''2 Accordingly, there formed in him the idea of one day restoring in the Churches of the Reform "fe'mi]aine religibus orders.'~ Caroline Malvesin was born at Marseilles in 1806. From her childhood her hbfirt ~vas drawn to" the poor and tb children!As an adolesCent, she drear~ed of involving - ~her friends in a life entirely consecrated to God in the service, of~ thos~ who s,uffered most'.'Bnuott h°i"n g" m '" P r:ote'stant"i s.m. corresponded to her asp~: r"atlons." I't "was very ° sad," ~he s.aid,, " t o see no way of entering the service of the Lord." "Since my twentieth year I regretted nothing more than the fact of not being able.to with what joy I would have submitted myself to a rule, to a Christia'n discipline." Later as a teacher at Bordeaux,)Caroline was linked in deep friendship'to Fas[br Vermeil. In 1839 under the influence of the preaching of the great apostle Adolphe Monod, her Christian life was totally renewed. The breath of the Awakening touched her.:The peace she had-.Iong desired at last filled her, soul with a joy and a power that she had not previously experienced. The Holy Spirit rekindled in her j'the ,need to consecrate herself entirely to. the service of the Lord." This need ;'devohred her.". . A Thirst for Consecration ,, In the 4th century when the Roman Empire was at peace, monasticism had appeared spontaneously as a sort of substitution for martyrdom°.'Verme.il did not hesitate to invoke the same argument in favor of a rebirth of religious life in French Protestantism of the 19th century:~ "For three centuries the agitations of the Church under the cross were able to satisfy these needs of the heart and of the expansive faith which seeks self-immolation and sacrifice; but today it is'necessary to open another outlet for them.''3 In the absence of such an outlet, many souls " "will be led toask of other sources the means to satisfy their:.thirst" (that is, they would be attracted to Roman Catholicism)~ -, At the same time the missionary impulse offered possibilities of herbic commit: ment to.Christians in love with the Absolute. Caroline Malvesin introspected herself on this point but found that her calling lay elsewhere: "Reflecting on the pressing needs of our own people, it seemed to me that the good needing to be done was Expressions taken from the founders in their own language are placed within quotation marks; the expressions are ta keii from their corresponce and from a number of brochures." Brochure distrtbuted July 30, 1841. Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 535 just as great around us. ; I believe that each of us has his own interior intimation which leads him to recognize the work fitted to himself." Then this cry sprang from l~er: "For myself, I feel that my work will be to strive~by the gra~e of the Lor-d to hasten that blessed moment when there will be but one flock guided by one shepherd." A Vision of an Obedience-structureed Church At that time the Reformed Church oflFrance, which had remained united during the persecution, wa~ threatened with divisions. Deprived by the State of its national synod,:it lacked a center of authority, The separation between the Reformed and the Lutherans (essentially a regional reality'except in Paris) was not the cause. Rather, the real divisions were at the very heart of the Church. On the .level of dogma a gap had opened up and.hostilities existed between the liberal and the "orthodox" tendencies. And on the ecclesiologi-cal level the partisans of free churches (that is, separated from the State) were opposed to Christians who remained devoted to the "national" Church. And almos~ everywhere Methodists were opening their "chapels" under the shadow of the large church buildings. During 1840 Vermeil, a man of peace, was called to Paris in the hope that hl would be a conciliator. Once he had arrived, he was alarmed by the seriousness of the evil. It was then that he had the spiritual intuition that then began to come to realization. What was lacking to such a degree in Protestantism - each one's renunciation of his own will, the sense of authority in the Church, fraternal love - could be incarnated in the feminine order which he had been thinking about for a long time. "But in order that the goal be attained, there would have to be a vow of entire obedience." The "evangelical sisters of charity,!' animated by a spirit of openness, would pertain to all the Reformed communions (a truly ecumenical community before the word was even used) and would thereby be in the midst oL the divisions of the Church a leaven of unity and of a life hidden in Christ,- He wrote at once to his spiritual daughter, the humble teacher at Bordeaux. His ideas evoked a profound response in Caroline Malvesin. From this time on there began an ardent correspondence between the future founders.4 Animated by a genuine spirit of prayer, a sense of disappointment with regard to her own Church led Sister Malvesin to the vision of the Church of Christ in its totality and awakened her to the scandal of the division in the Church universal: "The .Roman Church has disfigured Christianity. but the Reform has also disfigured Christianity." "The more I, think of that project, the more I love it. I love it because of the great deeds that the Lord can grant us to do but al~o and above all because it is a step toward the fusion of the. Churches~ This is a gospel-authorized work that Protestantism has neglected.In applying oneself in a Christian way to the matter, it musf~be-acknowledged that the branches of the trees have been cut off too short and that thereby the traveler has been deprived of salutary fruits and of a greater amount of shade . will the time come when we will not use the words 'Protestants,' 'Catholics,' except to give thanks to the Lord that they no longer exist; when will the time come when the great Christian family will quench its thirst at the source of living water which springs up into life eternal?" 422 letters from February 6 to August 31 1841. 536 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 The Community Beyo~d a sympathetic reference to the "Sisters of Charity" and to the term deaconess borrowed from Biblical vocabulary (Rom 16:1), our founders borrowed nothing. They seem to have been ignorant of the patristic traditions, and they purposely kept away from Catholic sources in the supposition that they were blemished with errors and abuses. They intended to "have no other b~se than the gospel, no other foundation than Christ." Yet, remarkably, by a soft'of spiritual instinct they rediscovered the principles of traditional religious life: - Entire consecration of self to God by union with Christ." "Our Center is the One from whom comes the light; the Center of our captured wills is the Master. May each member derive her life from Jesus alone, her love from Jesus alone, her humility, her contentment, her renunciation, her abnegation, her spirit of sacrifice frorfi Jesus alone!" (Sister Malvesin, Letter to the Community, December 31, 1868). - .4 life of prayer: "My house will be called a house of prayer" was the text chosen by Antoine Vermeil when he opened the sisters' chapel.where twice a day the community would come together for praise and adoration. ~ " - .4 solemn commitment binding one to the service of the Lord)"My sister, do you ~feel penetrated by such a gratitude to God our Savior who has redeemed us at so large a cost that you are unshakably determined to consecrate to Him in the service of the Deaconesses that body and spirit of yours which belong to Him?" (textused from 1884). - Community: The vow of obedience grouped the community around the~sister superior. It included the stages 'of sister-aspirant and'of sister-n~vice before the attainment of the consecration as sister-deaconess. All remuneratiohs were for common use to be shared according to the needs of each. ~ '- "Evangelical poverty"." Antoine Vermeil gave the~ sisters as their rule the apostolic precept: "As long as we have food and clothing, let us be content with that" (! Tim 6:8). - The vision of unity: This vision was to make the community a demonstration of a reality which the Churches still needed. There wa~; however, one hesitation, and this in connection with lifelong consecrated celibacy which seemed too contrary to Protestant principles (though this was taken for granted rather than stated). The commitment of the sisters would be simply for two years and would be renewable indefinitely for the same term. Early Achievements, " Although, as we have seen, Sister Malvesin and Pastor Vermeil were preoccupied with the Situation of the Chuich, they were also tormented by the miseries in society at large. Their charity led them to~meet these miseries on all fronts, o ~ The first' act of the community, and this on the'very of day of its foundation, was the opening on the rue des 3-Sabres of a shelter for women leaving prison. (This was a consequence of the visit to Paris of Elizabeth Fry, the Quaker mystic and apostle to prisons:) Thereafter the sisters began to seek' out the. poor who were numerous in the sector of Faubourg Saint-Antoine. The condition of the children- moral debase-ment~ and physiological misery - moved them deeply. They rented two places to take care of them - one for young girls in moral danger, the other for tubercular children. Sick adults also received the compassion of the sisters, and they opened for them an infirmary with eight beds. Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 537 In 1844 a large piece of property v~as found on the rue de Reuilly. The shelter (supplemented by a section for adolescents), the two projects for.children, and the infirmary were easily accommodated there. And it was also possible for Sister Malvesin to realize there the educational work which she .had cherished in her heart. She opened the first school for mothers in the sector, the first Protestant primary school, and the first nursery. But her zeal did not stop with this. After the primary school, there was need for an apprenticehood center for young girls, evening courses in reading and writing for women, and an open library for the workers. The work of evangelizatio0 was also pursued in the sector e.specia!ly by means of a Sunday School which, brought together 150 children while Pastor Vermeil organized public gatherings. Soon the first sisters were asked for by the Province. Th~ey went, alone or in small groups, to take charge of orphanages, o~f hospitals, and of old age homes. All of this was undertaken in the Course of the first six years. One may regret this intense activity on the grounds that it compromised the formation of .the first novices and the deepening of the newborn community in prayer and in the religious life. As it turned out, the life of the community was not sufficient to justify the existence of the sisters-deaconesses,, their strange dress, and their "convent" on the rue de Reuilly. As far as Protestant opi.nion was concerned (an opinion that raged over the matter for the ten years from 18,46 to 1856), both liberal and conservative Pr,otestants found in this unwanted group a point of unexpected accord. TODAY- AND TOMORROW Because of the badly prepared Protestant milieu, during the first hundred years of the existence of the community, the aspect of religious life was deliberately played down, and this by the founders themselves in the trouble and sorrow of their consciences. Christian service was giv.en priority over the service of praise and over the building up of the ecumenical Body. But there always remained a number of living realities: - entire consecration of self to God, - the authority of the sister superior, and - a strong feeling of attachment to the spiritual family of Reuilly. And these were to be sufficient supports for the renewal actually going on at the present time.s In the years of the Second World War there came a new g~neration which, e~,en if it was not numerous at the beginning, was deeply desirous of communitarian life." And without downgrading social effectiveness or apostolic zeal, the yearning .for prayer grew. The ecumenical vision that had been lost for such a long time was recovered - and with the greatest joy. The restudying of the documents of its origins (especially the letters exchanged during the prefoundation period) en-couraged the Community to take up anew on its own responsibility the project of religious lif6 that had been insufficiently realized in the past. The appearance in contemporary Protestantism of cenobitic communities (Taiz6, Grand~hamp) was an immense encouragement. Finally - a~d this was a capital point - the theological renewal during the period 5This idea, along with a number of others, has been taken from the paper, La Communaui~ de Reuilly ~ la d~couverte de sa source monastique, presented to the Faculty of Theology of Strasbourg on March 17, 1966, by Sister Marie-Madeleine Handy, Sister of Reuilly. ~ 538 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 was'favorable ~6 communitarian qifd and provided it for the first time within 'the framework of Reformed doctrine a sufficient foundatiom The Theological Foundation Theological 'vigor was wanting in the°religious movement of the"19th century, centered as it was on" the sentiments 0fthe believer and on the needs of mankind. The great wave of the'Awakening which' urged so many women to an eritire consecration of themselves to God in celibacy and in ~ommunitarian life did not find in Europe thesuppgrt of a theology capable ofhnderpinning the life. Orily the Anglicans, nourished by the fathers of the Ctiurch, knew how to~ compose such a theology. The 20th century, on the other hand, recovered the vision of one Church, of the Church as the Body o~" Christ the members of ~,,hich, being organically bonded together, are in mutual intercommunion. Accordingly, this theological renewal along with the liturgical renewal and the ecumenical movemedt favored the blossoming of community life. The little'book of Dietrich Bonhoeffer,Life Together, published at the end of the war, opened the way'~o a gre~t deal of reflection. Karl Barth recognized the place in the Church of regular communities alongside parish communities. Then there came the writings 'of Taiz~ and - less known but important for Reuilly - the thought of Louis Dali~re whose charismatic ecclesiology is completely oriented to the nearness of the kingdom of love and of the return of Christ. Theology restored baptism to the center .of all Christian life since it unites us to Christ. Accordingly, holiness no longer appeared a-s bound to the religious life as such but rather to the vow of baptism included in it; and the same could be said of the apostolate. God is the sovereign of His callings; His freedom differentiates them as it pleases; nevertheless, baptism assigns each Christian the same goal - holiness - and the same demand - witnessing. On the common basis of baptism, w~e ciar~d to reaffirm in all their plenitude the three commitments which traditionally have formed religious life' the communalty of goods, consecrated celibacy, and the acceptgnce of authority. The Community as a member of the Church is configured to the Church's image: Christocentric prayer, the sanctificatioi~ of time, unity in love, organic cohesion, dynam!sm of the Spirit, openness to the world in a great diversity of services. The theological movement in this period of the 20th century opened before us the .largest perspectives. : ° The community The essential has been said; t'he only thing left is to live it! T~o reestablish the contemplative dimension of our vocation and to restore integral community life have been our primary obJective~s; and thereby a,. new hierarchy of values became necessary. Through the adoption for daily prayer of the Office of Taiz6, the sisters entered into contact with the treasures of the universal Church and discovered the beauty of the liturgical year. A third time of common prayer was begun in the middle of the day; the Last SUpper memorial became frequent; more time was given to s~iritual retreat and to meditation on the word of God. All ~this was not easy to accomplish. And for most of us, engaged as we are in demanding works, there'is still' a searchihg for a balanc6 in the "mixed" life where Review for Religious, Volume 31, 19~72/4, 5,39~ the Divine Office and the service of the Church are the.,two aspects of the si.ngle service of God. Similarly, we have come to a better understanding of the sl~irit~al dim'ensions of the common life: "We do nbi enter community in ardor to have companionship but in order to give ourselves entirely to God. Before everything el.se the framework of common,life should help us to perseverance in interiori.ty. In place of sa.crificing.the values of communita*rian life in the name ,of the aposti~late, we realize that the radiating ~power of our service depends on the truth~and the love lived among us", (Sister Madeleine-Marie). o ~ .Daily encounter, revision of life, sharing, reflection t'ogether, ~study - it was neces~sary to find time for, all of these. It was also necessary to cease all niggardliness in the matter of the formation of the you~ng members; so too was it necessary tO reeducate the older members by continued religious, apostolic, or professional formation. But this, I think,_is the story of all the active congrega~tions of~our day. But there remains the necessity of, men~tioning matters that were problems peculiar to us. First of all, in the course of the last twenty years the com. munity of Reuilly has gradually~ separated its own identity from that of the works and institutions in which the sisters exercise ih~ apostolate. Moreover,. our statutes have been revised - still, however, imperfec.tly. Furthermore, we have choffen a qgllege of twelve sisters ~ with constant reference to the sister sup.erior.-7~.an.,d .have begun having assemblies of the community. Finally, we have devote._d the~ gre]tes~t attention to the formation of our novices; and we hav~ ~refashione~i- our liturgy, of consecration and the commitments theinselves in order tha~t ,t, ii~ey.may better express the truth of what we are. But we have not finished ali'ihis;.~'and this internal history of ours - always needing'to be reconsidered and never finished - is full'of meaning especially for those of us who are engaged in it. ~ Apostqli.c Commitment. It is a commonplace to remark t'hat we are living in ~a ti~ae of profoiand "change both iq the Church and in the world.,The present is po longer a'fixed thing but in total flux. We could speak of our apostolic engagement by enumerating its concretizations: hospitals, schools, homes for the aged,, parishes, byotherhoods, ov[rseas apbstolate, ecumenism, spiritual retreats, hostels, and so forth. Also we could justify our longstand!ng forms of the apostolate and the reasons for our new forms. But in reality we - like the rest of the Church - are m search of a new spirit. We" are in-progress, not knowing if our life's movement will succeed in one e~ndeavor and be frustrated in an.other. It is clear that in the works that were previously~ famil!.al but W.hich have now. become, in however small a way, true public services, the insertion o~" our~ sisters into the midst of numerous lay workers and the mode of the sisters' presence to'~ those whom they se rye there is in the process of thoroughgoing chg~ge. Wha~ is'the Christian character of such works and how should our witnessing be expressed in. them? Can the gospel _still pass muster and can it still transform a determined institutional milieu? Should the status of the sisters ev9lve towards, salaried. positions? These are difficult and profound problems for which a-solution can be reached only by spirits who are courageously.inve.ntive and, while ~ot losing their own identity, respectful of the vocation of each member of such works: sisters, lay ~.pe.r.sons,, technicians, Christians, agnostics. Is it possible o to attempt~ a common 540 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 project which-goes beyond the religious community without weakening the community and without denying the values that are proper to it? Will we receive the faith that moves such mountains, will we have enough love and enough humility? More than any other age, ours has need of stable places, houses, structures; do we "still know how to provide them? 'In parish work'as well as in the brotherhood apostolate, the position of the sisters it les~ complex and l~ss ambiguous. Parishes expect catechetical witnessing~ contemplative prayer and intercession can flower in the brotherhoods, These ministries are all openness, friendship, approach to people in their daily preoccupa-tions. Doubtless, however, these too pr~esent their own problems 6f insertion and of adaptation. The reasons for the sisters to be in a given milieu and the way of living the gospel there are questions that it is always necessary to ask. Beyond all others, the' real problem is always that of the gospel. How can the gospel be commuhicated to the people of our time? H6w can new modes of communicati6n be found without downgrading the word and without lessening charitable ~,ork? For a long time already the Community has been asking these que~stions. It is now fifteen years since we began our first attempts at "liturgical plays" for the celebration of great feastdays. It was with. astonishment thaVwe have seen our chapel filled with known and unknown friends. Then it became necessary to answer the appeals that °~ame from outside - from Paris or provincial parishes; in'these cases we have presented a cycle of eight days or more, thereby participating in ph~'bchial renewal and in evangelization. Finally, our modest plays as well as our audio-visual "montages" of various kinds became the messengers of our ecumenical devotion: the crypt of the Church of St. Eloi was made available to us for a greater reception of the people of the sector; Catholics included. Singing - it had begun among ourselves - made its appearance along with the accompanying instrumentation. These last summers there have been experiences in camping. In the evening there was much singing of all types together with short montages occasioned by a text of the gospel. We tried mixed teams of sistet:s and young people. The participation of the people gave us a joyous surprise as did the seriousness of their attention. "To ~hare the gospel" is one of the profound needs of our time. But perhaps even more u~'gent is the need to relearn how to pray, to rediscover.the contemplativ~ dimension without which there is no Christian life. Once it had 6ecor6e' aware of its new hierarchy of values, the Community of Reuilly wanted to share with others the grace that had been given it?'A number of room~ were furnished for the reception of persons for a spiritual retreat': Then we began to cherish an important project which was first supported by our prayer and then~ realized in September 1970: the opening at Versailles (rue Porte-de-Buc) of a house of prayer situa'~ed ~in the calm of~a beautiful park and open to receive retreatants, either.individually or in groups. We do not have a "frozen" program on the way of making a retreat; we have learned that fo~ those who come we must be an "open" community. The important thing is that each retreatant be familiarized with the particular realities of the community and .that he have ~he possibility to live with it its lifeof daily praise. Versailles will also be a special place for ecumenical dialogue. And finally for the Communit3~ itself it is the occasion of the spiritual regrounding so necessary for active sisters. Not'~verything has been said here for the Spirit is alwa~ys pushing the Church and o Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 541 communities in spite of their weakness. One last thing, howeve~r, should be sai~ about our commitment to the Third World. For the last ten years there has been a modest brotherhood in Algeria. We are present in Dahomey where we have two sisters in the ,structure of the Common Apostolic Action (an interconfessional and interracial team). In the Fon territo~ of the country and inca fully animistic background wd have an urgent and enormous medical work tl~at must be accomplished with the barest of resources. In Cameroun there has been begun a small African community at Makak; a!ready there are two novices; a community house is under construction. These are small beginnings but they are also the objects of a great hope. Sister,Malvesin in her vision of the tree (letter of February 24, 1~41), whici~ she often appealed to, foresaw a community that was both perfectly achieved (strong trunk enrooted in Christ)" and at the same t.ime.totally ope~n to the~world (many branches attesting the vitality of the $runk). The, dynamism of her vision has not been exhausted. God grant that it will always arouse the renewals that are necessary in the continuity of the Spirit. THE ORDO PACIS By Sisters ofthe Ordo Paeis [This article appeared on pages 41-48 9f Unit~ chr~tienne, February 19"/2. The address of the principal house of the Ordo Pacis: Celia St. Hildegard; Koppel 55 11;D-2 Hamburg l;West Germany.] A Com.munity "under the Peace of Christ" ° ~ Among the evangelical religious orders, our Evangelische Schwesterrischaft O,r.do Pacis [Evangelical Sisterhood of the Order.of Peace] represents ~ somewhat special type since our communit3; include~ women in every state of life: Married sisters live in their families; some celibate sisters live al6ne; and there are some sisters who live in community and form as.is said today, "a community." We are not very numer6us - actually only twenty-four sisters; the community has its residence,- the Celia Saint-Hildegard [Cell of St. Hildegard], in Hamburg; the rest of thesisters live throughout the rest of Germany. The foundation of our sisterhood b.y the consecration of its first eight sister~ took plac~e in 1953 after long years of preparation. From around 1930 the idea of sucha community was formed in the minds of some membe.rs_ of ~the Eva, ngelische Michaelsbruderschaft (founded in 1931 and now having fiv~ hundred brothers but without community life) as well as in the minds, of a group of women eage[ to commit themselves in the Church; but °the idea did not then comd to realization. After the Second World War some of the women made recofitact~ith e~ch other as well,as contact with other women; they intentionally went out to women of~'all states=the married, widows, celibates, deaconesses. This group changed its composition greatly in the course of time; and it also became more and more independent of the Evangelische Michaelsbruders~haft. Over a period of some years the group began to ask itself whether it should respond to a special calling, from God for the foundation of a sisterhood which Would include besides the states of. life already represented in the,.group (m, arried and celibate) the state of a sister committed, to communitarian life. To our knowledge 542 R~view for Religious, 'Volume 31, 1972/4 there was not then ~ind isnot now any other Protestffnt community"which includes Women of all states as full members. This group of women met together.each year for a few days of retreat in order to seek the answer to their self-question in common prayer and in Bible~stud~ together. Two Bible texts,' especially, ~were essential for their consideration'. First, there was the encounter of the two worhen, Mary and Elizabe'th, called by'God to be the im~ige and the type~of every encounter in which Christ is°the center. Secondly, thEre':was th~ appearance Of the Resurrected Christ on.Easter night in the midst of ,.His~Disdiples and with the salutation "Peace" on His:lips. The peace of Christ was to become the determining factbr in the life of each sister as well" as in the life of the small corfimunity that was eventually constituted,at Hamburg in 1956. The peace of Christ is the gift Of the,Resurrected One which we receive in order to give it tO the world in the place we are at -, in our families, in our professions, in any new work that may be undertakeh. The peac~ of Christ is the reality which unites us even though~ we live in very different circumstances and with very.different missions; this is why we have dared to take for our sisterhood .the name of the Order of Peace. We realize that we are only beginners; we have not yet a formulated rule; we are trying to live out only a few fundamental, convictions. The essential thing is that each of us be in reality an "instrument o~" the peace of Christ" as should the sisterhood as a whole. We are c0nvincedl~hat our vocation is this: The peace that has been entrusted to our community. (Naturally, we know that this peace is also entrusted to each Christian' and to the entire Church.) In order for us to actually be an-instrume'nt of peace'in the world and qn complete solidarity with the perso.ns with whom we live and work (our families, our parishes), we have thought it essential that women of all states and of all backgrounds .shou, ld be joined in a single sisterhood with sisters who ~: commit themselves to c~qmm.unity life in order to be perfectly atthe, disposal of God/We have m~any difficulties: The great differences in the life situation of each of the sisters; the considerable disiances that separate us; theJack of time and energy that affects us each day; the temptation we all have to live an isolated vocation; the temptation to see a differhrice of quality between the group of sisters committed to commumty hfe and those who remain in their civil sta~. To' live our common vocation in, spite of all these difficulties requires immense efforts; and we will attempt to describe these in the following paragraphs. First of 'all*, there is the matter of the i~rayer in which'.we live our common vocation. It is prayer that is made each day; it finds its sou'[cd both in a daily meditation on" a pas~.ag.e of the gospel (ordinarily the same passage° for all) and in the various li(e situations of the day that are gwen to tis by God. In this inatter we have learried':and ~are still learning a~great deal~.from the Churches and the ~coinmunities of "the othe{ great ~onfessions'~ and ~for this we are deeply grateful. However, our life in prayer-, our daily life "underthe peace" is basically a most delicate thing to~ describe; we have, however: risked such a description in the second part of this article, always fearful, however, of using expressions,that are too strong for the initial small experiences that we have had up to !he' present. Another part of the'" realization of our dommon .vocation consists i-n the relationship of ehch sister with the entirety of'our sisterhood. Take, for example, the relationship ~with :the sister who directs our sisterhood, who indicates the way along which the sisterhood should advance together, and who makes the de~isions which should correspond to our common goal. It is absolut'ely necessary for her Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 543 ministry that each sister keep her informed of her experiences (both positive and negative) under the sign of peace; each.sister must give the~ director full. trust as well as full obedience. Because of the great distances between us, for most of us this is done by writing or, at times, by telephone. Still another consideration is the special relationship between each sister and another sister, an adviser, appointed for the purpose. This sister-adviser should be closer (not in the sense, of friendship) than the other .sisters and should .represent to the sister the totality of the sisterhood in a simple and concrete manner. It is useful for the sister-adviser to live in the same region (to facilitate visits), to live in the same state of life, and to be more,oor_less of the same generation (to better understand the problems and the situation.of the sister-advisee). But none of these are indispensable. And it is always necessary to make the effort to really break up in ourselves the tendency to ,individualism, to open oursel~,es, to make ourselves "transparent," if we are to realize our common vocation on this adviser-advisee level. Besides the above, each sister sends every year.an account of herself to the spiritual father of our sisterho~od. This is to be an expression, of our common vocation, for what we give an account of is the gift which has been entrusted to us in common.And it should be noted,that the spiritual father of our sisterhood has the role of spiritual and theological counselor~ o_f the community in general and in particular of the sister who directs the sisterhood.,, It is he who conducts the liturgical services at our reunions; and he is also the spiritual director of some of us (since it is often difficult to find one).~ As was the case before the foundation of our sisterhood in 1953, our journey together is marked by the yearly reunion of all the sisters for ~lays of retreat and for days of reflection. The thrust that pushes us forward is to be found in a special way in these reunions, in the Bible study during, the days of retreat, in the celebration of the Eucharist, and in prayer. But, as must be clear, there are many forces which weaken this thrust and which, tempt us to.r.eo~ain where we are instead of advancing forward. A. brief mention should be given to the small community of the Celia Sair~t- Hildegard at Hamburg. The Celia is not our center, but it is an essential part of our sisterhood. The sisters of the community arg committed to a life of celiba.cy lived in a communalty of goods and in the acceptance of authority. Their residence is expected to be a place of prayer, that is, the rhythm of the day is marked by common Offices and by the personal prayer of each sister. The re.sidence has its doors open in two directions: to leave and to enter. Some of the sisters engage in a profession as an expression of real solidarity with the entire world (as well as to provide for the material existence of the community). At the same time the Celia is open to all those who wish to come there. It has a number of rooms available for those who come. And people do come - to pray, to recollect themselves, to rest, to find someone to listen to them, to share in our joy or in our frustrations, to make a retreat (alone or in small groups), to participate in an Office, to take a quick snack; they come for a few hours or a few days depending on the needs and opportunities of each °one. In short, they come to us to enter into the movement of peace which has been given to us to give to others. Prayer and Life in the Peace of C- hrist ~ "The peace of God is with us.'His peace is up6n the earth." This is the ending of all our Offices; and in it in a very concise way is summarized 544 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 the manner in'which we seek to respond to the reality of the peace of Christ. The resurrected One said to His Disciples: "Peace to you!" (Jn 20: 19). What He meant by this salutation was a reality which would henceforth determine their life and the life of the Church. In the gift of His peace the resurrected Lord gave us reconciliation with God, the salvation that envelops each man, all mankind, the entire universe. The peace is "the normal situation of the new creation" (Foerster). Understood correctly, the peace of Christ is not primarily an ideal and harmonious state of the individual; its purpose is not merely the isolated individual. Rather the peace is first of all a "collective grace" (Comblin) which Christ gives to His Disciples as a community and which they as a community ought to receive and let be operative. Peace, salvation, life - this is the gift of the resurrected One with which He sends His followers to the points where there is no peace, no salvation, no order. This is done so that the real victory of the Resurrection might be believed, be witnessed to, and transmitted to the world. In this sense the entire Church is a community under the peace of Christ. It is precisely for this reason that it is legitimate for the Church to contain within itself '~orders of the peace" ~- communities which expressly keep themselves at the disposition bf this peace, thereby grasping and realizing their own particular vocation. In the same way there are other communities (for example, those of Taiz6 and of Grandchamp) who place themselves at tl~e disposition of the gift of unity. To believe in and to give witness to the peace ot~ Christ (that is to say, to give concrete expression to this peace in our world) does not mean to propose purposes of this world (for example, the suppression of war) nor to set in motion impressive activities With regard to some sort of "program for peace." This would be to reverse the order of things. Peace in the Biblical sense is a matter that belongs to God; He it is who leads it to His own end, and to Him is reserved its "program." But He wills in an absolute way to use us as His "instruments." It is a question, then, of ourselve~ as a community in the midst of the world being completely available to the peace of Christ which is itself the real objective force "which Changes the world, society, the order of things" (Comblin). It is necessary for us to be available for that peace of Christ which is a universal force, which excludes no human being from salvation, and which leads all to become one without erasing multiplicity. Finally, we must be available to that peace of Christ which is directed toward the coming of the' Lord and toward the achievement of that new creation in the dawn of which we are ourselves living. These are brave words, given the Church as it exists in the world today, given our small sisterhood, and given the nature of each of the sisterhood's members. But this corresponds to God's way of acting which will always remain for us a paradox: God brings to the world His message and His reality by the "poor and the little"; His victories are not in any evident way linked to human possibilities. We sisters are only beginners in the discovery of the dimensions of our vocation under the peace, and all the more so when it is question of turning our knowledge into obedient action. It is as such beginners that we now try to say simply here how we in our community attempt to make room for the peace of Christ. The realization of the peace of Christ is done first of all in prayer understood in the wide sense of the word. For in prayer God is the center and His action is essential. Prayer is the place of encounter with Christ; it is in prayer that we receive His gifts; it is in prayer that our mission is always renewed; and iris in prayer that we ~nd the power for a renewed obedience. For this reason it is essential that we always penetrate more deeply into a life of prayer. Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 545 This means for us the following: living by the Church, participation in the worship and the life of the parish in its plenitude and its poverty, living in the presence of Christ listening to His word and for His will, personal prayer of adoration, immolation, praise, thanksgiving, intercession, supplication, and struggle. In the course of the years our mission under the peace has found expression in a number of prayer formulas. In the morning the prayer of abandon and of intercession of all the sisters is linked to the following prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, You have said: "Peace be to you; as the Father has sent me, so also I send you'; Lord, send us also." The prayer cited above, "The peace of God is with us; His peace is upon the earth," corresp.onds to the message of Christmas;it originated as the conclusion of a special intercession on the vigil of.-Christmas. Now we are bold enough to .m.ake it the conclusion of all our Offices throughout the entire year. And always we attempt to line up our prayer anew with our daily life by professing the reality and the presence of the peace of Christ in the midst of everything that surrounds, occupies, and tires us, of everything that weighs down up.on us and upon others. Then there is a short prayer that accompanies each sister during the day in her work and in her brief moments of recollection; it is a prayer that also helps us to keep at each moment the peace, of the resurrected One as the center of the day's events: "Lord Jesus Christ, You are establishing Your Kingdom in the midst of the world. You are the Peace that has. conquered the world. We pray to You to make a place for Yourself in us and by us." In the intercession whi.ch is an essential.part of our mission under the peace, we try to present to God all men in the variety of their situations, to give and entrust them to His peace. We include both those we know as well as those outside our personal relations or interests. In intercession it is God who wishes to be active; it is His peace that acts in a definitive way. We do not present projects or proposals to God; rather we pray that He may keep a person in His peace or that His peace be victorious over a person wherever he is and in whatever set of determinants, or we pray simply that God may gi~,e a person (or ~e~sons) a part in the joy of His presence. 1.t should be evident that a community which wishes to serve the peace of Christ would be desirous of an ecumenical outlook, of havi'ng contacts with Christians of other confessions, of taking part in the prayer for unity and in the common mission of all the Churches with regard to the world of today. This is why we are gratefully happy to be able to maintain relationships and contacts with a large number of groups, congregations, and communities of different Churches. We are convinced that our mission under the peace is closely and meaningfully linked to the fact .that in our sisterhood itself are to be found members living in very different situations. We are bound to recognize that the two vocations - that of marriage and that of celibacy - mutually complement each other and mutually depend on each other. We must give to each other the freedom for different forms of the imitation of Christ - to one the freedom for communitarian life in a total commitment; to a second the liberty to be a celibate whose life is not fixed and hence ~n a certain way can be mobile, entirely available to the "today of God"; and to a thi~rd the freedom for a life in the bonds of marriage and of the family. We are forced to train ourselves to live under the peace of Christ in the tensions which naturally are not small in' a community embracing so many differences, in age, in backgrounds, in work, in ways of thinking and acting. The practice of the peace does not consist in attempts at "peaceful coexistence" or at harmonization; 546 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 neither is it to be found in an excessive zeal to find principles and clear guiding lines. But it is realized if we hold ourselves in the presence of God, turned always toward Him, ready to accept and to forgive one another, and this not only when we celebrate the Eucharist or pray together but in each situation of our life. '~ Another sphere of experiences for our mission under the peace is where we are at home in our houses or our apartments. These should be places of the presence of the peace of Christ; this is why it is most important that one praYs there. And more and more we are recognizing that in the middle of a world ~'here all order is shattered we should not hope to be able to establish oases around us that represent a sane world. The upsetting of order is not held back for us, for our homes, or for our communities:. It is not a question, then, of realizing the ideal type of marriage, of family, of communitarian life, of professional conduct, or of conquering the difficulties of life. The peace of Christ is present in our places of living when we see our state and that of the world as it really is - without salvation and without hope - and when we a~re ready to take into our empty hands the gift of God, being ready to let ourselves be penetrated by the peace of Christ, by His victory, by His pardon, and by His re-creative power. The profound disorder of our world from which so many persons are suffering today ~vill not be healed by absolutizing forms of an order that are given in advance and then held on to. It is the Working of Christ that Will heal; He has arisen, He has freed us in order that we might establish in our world (which is perishing) the sign of His victory which is already given in plenitude to the entire world. It' is natural for these places of the peace to have their doors Open not only in the sense of a normal hospitality (which shares by giving and receiving) but also to receiv~ persons who are crushed, who do not have peace. In this matter different places will act differently according to whether it is the living place of a sister living alone, of a family, or of the Celia Saint-Hildegard and according to whether the place is in a village or in a small or large city. There is no need to enumerate one by one the possibilities of realizing the peace in the numerotfs relationships, responsibilities, and missions in which each of the sisters is placed in her family, her parish, her profession, and so forth. Let us, however, emphasize here how activity and prayer are mutually founded on each other and cannot be separated. Nor must we deceive ourselves by thinking that our human capa6ities' or our success in a given .place would be proof that we are accomplishing our mission; the peace of Christ is not the result~ofour possibilities nor of human efforts. We must be present to ~the world of today, amazed by its achievements, weighed down by its burdens, affected by its maladies - and yet marked and supported by the reality of the Resurrection of Christ: "Something new has been planted~in the world. What we have to share is not our soul, nor our attitudes towards the world, nor our calm, nor our interior peace. We do not occupy ourselves with'ourselves. We do not have to share or show what- the Lord has done to us. We have only to transmit a reality; a blessing, a grace. This is the meaning of the peace of which Jesus speaks" (Comblin). In thus seeifig the peace as a gift which has been entrusted to us and which we have to accept and to carry into the world in His name, we-are professing a profound solidarity with all men under the universal power of the peace. Accordingly, our encounter with Christ cannot be "private," but together with ourselves it concerns the entire world: "Obtain the peace of Christ'and thousands around you are saved" (St. Seraphim). Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 547 THE ECUMENICAL COMMUNITY OF, BOSE ~ [This ~rticle appeared on pages 59 to 63 of the FebruarY" 1972 issue of Unit~ chr~tienne. Th~ address of the principal hous~e of the Bose Community is the following: Comunit~ di Bosch;' 03050 Magnano, Italy.] ~ ¯ , A't Bose, a section of the Commune of Magnano, amidst the hills of the S'erra in Italy there has existed for the last three years a mixed monastic community, Christians of different confessions, Catholic and Protestant, men and women,,all celibate, have joined together to seek God in poverty and in obedience,to the gospel._ The objective of their life ,together is the work of reconciliation among separated Christians, dialogue with all men, and the aw.aiting of Christ. This community whose, members. .lead an ordinary',life dependent on manual or professional work is not a religious congregation or an ecumenical sect.; much less is it a new Church; it is simply a place for the seeking~of unity among Christians, Birth of:.the Community The adyenture of Bose began in0Turip on the via Piave durihg the years of .1965 and, 1966. ItowaS there that a group of young people fgrrfied the habit ofm.ee~ting with~nzo Bianchi, then a student. The group, which~had ~fo.rmed itself in order to giv~ Christian witness to university students, commenced by sharing with the students meals followed by Bible reading and by prayer in common. These encounters continued in a number of old domiciles and finally resulted i9 a group of Catholics, Protestants, and Wa~cl, ensi ,ans" (partiCulariy numerous in Piedm00t), all of whom joined together in a brotherly search for a ne.w,.wa~y of ~living their Christianity. For the Catholic~ of ,the group, tt~e high point of their spi'ritual life. was ~their dor~estic Eucharistic celebration in the course of an eve.ningdev0ote,d~to praye.r,and revision of life. In time the group grew as did also a sense of a particular vocation.It was in this way that the monastic calling of many of the group came to be realized as welLas.the manner and form which their response to this calling should take.~ For many of th.e group the end of their studies was in sight; ahd they spontaneously .experienced the desire to continue: the valuable experience ~f.lived brotherhood. They~ f~lt they should, choose a p0or~aqd secluded area to establish a common house. Their choice fell on Magnano in the Serra, the extensive moraine that lies betw,een Riella and lvrea. ., In September 1966 they had been members of a work camp for the repairing of a crumbling church near Bose, and they had come to appreciate the locality. The c.hurcti had been sufficiently repaired to allow for common prayer.within it; late.r its restoration would be completed~by the Office of Public Mofiumen~ts. Hence, they decided to establish themselves at Bose; they rented a few small and poor houses and fixed them up suitably without, however, altering their simplicity, At the beginning these houses were used only as "second residences" for living over weekends after thei~ s.chool week or professional week was finished; they used to meet there centered around the,Eucharist and there~by made a first tentative, attempt at partial common life. ~ ¯ ~ . The real community took form ,when Enzo Bianchi met two persons:, a young Swiss Reformed pastor, Daniel Attinger, who was impelled by the same desire for ecumenical common life; and. Maria-Teresa Calloni, a young Catholic girl who also was eager to attempt a:monastic experience in a mixed mode. Common life in a small and. secluded village would not be a matter'6f holidaF 548 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4~ comfort, and 'the "~'aspirants" were well aware of this. To test their endurance, they went .t~hrough a period of novitiate to initiate themselves into the monastic life; they made this novitiate in traditional Catholic, Protestant,, and Orthodox commu-nities.~ On August 6, 1968 - they chose the Feast of the Transfiguration for the birth and the anniversaries of their community - seven Catholic and Protestant brothers and-~sisters began "their life in common. The Life of the Community The members of the community simply wanted to be Christians, that is, to take the gospel seriously and to live it not in an isolated way but together. They are. simply baptized persons who n.ormally live by .their work in' order not to be dependent; but they live~together and share their salaries in order to take care of their ownoneeds and to offer a generous fraternal hospitality, for they wish to keep themselve~ in the j6yous poverty of the Beatitudes. To the measure their professions allow (some of them work in Ivrea), they come together for prayer in the morning, at noon, and in the evening; and they also .take: their~ meals together. But in every event they pass their evenings in community, including guests withwhom they are always ready to share their concerns. It is at the'~e evening sessions that they discuss their problems and make their decisions,~ Prayer In accord with the ancient practice, their common p'rayer is the Office chanted three times a day to thee praise of God and as intercession for o~r brothers. In order~ that" this Office might,be within the grasp of all, our community has taken great care in its composition. We have translated numerous prayers from different traditional Christian liturgies and have adapted them to contemporary spirituality. We have also creaf~d flew 15rayers which take into account present-day sensibilities and the problems of our day which remain present in the heart of modern man in his dialogue with God. " Our community has also made a new translation of the Psalms; the translation, rhythmic as psalmody should be, is expressed in ordinary language which can be understood by persons of little education such as workers and peasants. In this way, prayer ceases to be an alibi, a flight from the world; rather it tends to become not only a means of praising God and of listening to His word but also an instrument that works on the world, a prelude to action. In our evening prayer God is praised and the brothers with whom we have lived and worked that day are presented to Him. There are also presented to Him the events of the world, looked at with reference to the Word'who does not ~gase to enlighten our judgme~nt and to guide our conducl?. Hospitality We offer .to our guests a welcome that is very simple but brotherly. They can share'.the life of the community: work, prayer, meals, dialogues. With us they can live in seclusion for as long as they want to examine their problems and to rethink their commitments. Catholics and Protestants, lay persons and priests, bishops and pastors, believers and nonbelievers, young people eager for reriewal - all these receive the same welcome. In 1970 some five thousand persons came to usTor individual or group retreats or for longer periods of experience of the monastic life. Hospitality is a ministry more necessary than ever in this epoch of ours when modern man suffocates in isolation Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 549 in our depersonalized cities. The absence of dialogue, especially the absence of dialogue between generations, harms modern man cruelly. It is in order to provide. interlocutors for modern man that there are springing up today communities of Christian celibates who are a!ways ready to welcome persons and who keep themselves always free to listen to each one. Our Commitment in the Church We said at the beginning that the community of Bose is not a new Church; all of its members remain in the Churches which engendered them by baptism into the life of Christ. Our community does not wish to substitute for the Church nor regard itself as a model for the Church. On the contrary, the members of Bose put themselves at the service of the Christian Churches, especially in the work of reconciliation of Christians of different confessions. The simple fact of beginning a life together after four hundred years of separation can appear to be an evangelical initiative that is audacious and perhaps a little foolish; but today it can be clearly seen that the communitarian enterprise is fundamentally prophetic - a matter that is visible not only in the interior of the community but also in its work of witnessing. Common life animated by the same~word of God, by the same rhythm of the spiritual life, by the acceptance of the same communitarian will have brought our members to a theology of peace that unites rather than divides us. Besides the "breadwinning" work of our members, the community does work for the Church: preaching, Biblical courses, colloquia between Protestants and Catholics, the sparking of encounters and the coordination of "spontaneous groups" in Piedmont. Moreover, the commun.ity illustrates a renewed form of that service of the Church which is constituted by the common monastic life. Celibacy lived with the interior certainty of a calling from God and in.~availability and openness to others expresses confident waiting for the coming of Christ. During the recent years some new vocations have come to confirm and to enrich our young community which is developing without a rigid 'program and in provisional quarters with a practice of poverty of means and of limitation of initiatives. In a word, our community wishes to be a response to an actual need to renew religious life; it accepts the responsibility of having a prophetic value for the world of today. Our Commitment in the World Commitment in the world represents for the brothers of Bose neither a free option nor a supplementary effort; since they work exactly as all other men do, they are naturally involved as the others are in the same social reality where their work is done. Wherever there is question of establishing more justice, they share the responsibilities, the solidarity, and the struggle of the other workers and with no fear of thereby soiling their hands. Each of the members has the concrete duty of choosing the political and labor methods which concretize this struggle for justice. A member's belonging (though not in a juridical way) to the monastic tradition does not dispense him. from involving himself in a concrete way in the liberation of man in the place where he works, for it is there that man is incarnated in reality. It would take a prolonged effort of creative reflection to locate in a suitable fashion the role of the believer in this work of liberation that he accomplishes in 550 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 union with all other men. "The flight from the world" must not be understood as a: throwing aside or an abandonment of our responsibilities but as a contestation with regard to the methods of the world - those methods which are called power, money,, and success. In our community, freed as it is from constraining exterior rules, the different politico-social experiences are confronted and judged only by the criterion of obedience to the gospel and to the demands of justice. A Community of Contestation? During all this time of ecclesial contestation, many groups and individuals have come to Bose to find a form of solidarity. What did they find there? They did not find that contestation "of the salon" that is nourished by gossiping at the expense of the Church and of authority, nor did they find the contestation that aims at rupture. Much less did they ,find the contestation that is a kind of publicity product and that will pass just as styles change. On the contrary, our ,contestation was intended to be serious and to be constructive, l.t limited itself to the criticism of the nonevangelical and the always increasing bureaucratic manner of organizing the life of the Church. Each time the community raised its voice, it did so with the patience and the charity of the gospel. It modeled itself on the contestation of Francis of Assisi when he castigated wealth and power: intransigent as he was in the matter of conduct, he always showed himself good willing toward men. Some difficulties have arisen between our community and the Catholic hierarchy, but we have undergone these taking them to be a sign of maturation. The Future of Bose Our community wishes to be provisory not in the sense that some day a sudden decision will put an end to it, but in the sense that it wishes "to live the today of God" without worry about a need for continuity. In October 1970 we opened at Turin a brotherhood (the address is: Fraternith Universitaria; Via Piave 8; Turin, Italy) in order to found in the city a place of welcome and of prayer destined especially for the university world. This was done at the reque§t of Catholic and Waldensian communities of the area. As soon as the number of our members permits, we hope to open in Switzerland a similar brotherhood for specifically ecumenical work. If it is possible ~o say it all in a single phrase, we at Bose want to live the gospel by means of the community. SISTER MARY SERAPHIM, P.C.P.A. Feminine Monastic Spirituality [Sister Mary Seraphim is a member of Sancta Clara Monastery; 4200 Market Avenue N.; Canton, Ohio 44714~1 In quest of directives to deepen my concept of the cloistered life and also to develop a spirituality in conformity with it, I began to search~ for some books or writings which dealt with the monastic life for women. To my astonishment, I discovered that practically nothing existed on the subject. Most, in fact all, of the books which had been recommended during my years in formation had dealt with ~he monastic life as monks lived it. The books were written by men about men and although the writers presumed that ~what they said was equally.applicable to nuns, itwas so only in an accommodated sense which left much to be desired. Pursuing my search, I consulted the New Catholic Encycloped.ia only to discover that under such headings as "Spirituality" or~"Monasticism" the word feminine does not even occur. A passing reference is made to the. rise of monasteries of virgins in the .third and fourth centuries'but~ these communities were patterned, on the existing monastic life of monks and had no specifically womanly character. The closest one could come to discovering a distindt feminine style of spiritual living in the early Church were the consecrated virgins who occtlpied a place of service and rank in the assembly of the faithful but who continued to live their dedication within the home. Some few groups~ of consecrated virgins did ,live together; for instance, St. Paula turned her house into a home for widows or virgins in Rome but this life style was not widely propagated.° In ecclesiastical documents about feminine monastic life, I found that while they dealt extensively width the externals of enclosure~ ingress and egress, ,~religious ceremonies, and so forth, very little if anything was s~iid about the spirituality of the women who were to be observing these regulations. The most insightful document, ato least to this writer's mind, which has appeared so far, is' the controversial Venite .seorsum - On the Contemplative Life and the Enclosure of Nuns. Pas~ing over any commentary on the regulations prescribed, I would like to observe that the first section of this instruction treats in an unusually perceptive manner the spirituality of contemplative nuns. However, even this instruction .touches only on some of the broad and obvious characteristics of feminine spirituality. Much more can, I feel, and should be said in this area. Turning to some of the noted women writers of the past, we find St. Teresa of Avila writing with profound insight on the life of the spirit for women, but what she teaches with rel~ard to the development oi~ that life within the confines of the monastic framework for women has not gone much beyond ther doors of Carmel. Has anyone taken her writings and sifted from them what would be applic~able to all cloistered religious ~women? It seems that such a study would be immensely profitable for that half of monast~icism which is female. Looking into my own Pogr Clare tradition I noted that St. Clare had no intention of founding a "monastic" order in the traditional sense any more than did St. 552 Review for Religious, Volume 31, 1972/4 Francis. She accepted (because she was forced to) a modified Benedictine rule and lived it most of her life. But she never gave up her struggle to have her own conception of gospel living approved. Three days before her death a Bull was placed in.her hands attesting ~the approbation of the Church on her unique "Forha of Life:" Throughout the centUries Poor Clares have been classed as a monastic order in the Church; and although this is true from a purely juridical point of view, it is a distortion of the reality from a spiritual point of view. Not "Female Monks" Traditionally, monks are defined as solitary seekers after God who live a common life for the sake of greater freedom from mundane concerns: Now this definition does not sit easily on the hearts of cloistered women. The idea of being solitaries living in community destroys something fundamental in the why and wherefore of feminine community life. A woman cannot live as though she were a hermit even with one other woman, much less a house of twenty or more! She must interact with those around her for it is part and parcel of feminine endowment that she is alterocentric. Therefore a spirituality which does not take this truth into accourit will not meet the specific needs of feminine monastic life. The necessity of developing in writing the style of spiritual life of cloistered contemplative women is becoming increasingly important. For today the Church has asked that ea~l~ order and congregation restudy its sources and examine itself to determine whether it is living according to its own unique charism. As a result of this reexamination,' many contemplative women have become aware of the discrepancy that exists between the spiritual books which have hitherto been considered normative and the fidelity to their special role and calling that the Church is asking of them. Nuns are awakening to the fact that they are not "female monks.'