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Helen Horne Far, June 5, 2014 ; The Weber State College Oral History Program was created in the early 1970s to "record and document, through personal reminiscences, the history, growth and development of Weber State College." Through interviews with administrators, faculty and students, the program's goal was to expand the documentary holdings on Weber State College and its predecessor entities. From 1970 to 1976, the program conducted some fifteen interviews, under the direction of, and generally conducted by Harold C. Bateman, an emeritus professor of history. In 1979, under the direction of archivist John Sillito, the program was reestablished and six interviews were conducted between 1979 and 1983, with additional interviews being conducted by members of the Weber State community. In 2013 the campus prepared to celebrate the 125th Anniversary of Weber State University in 2014. In order to document the student experience, interviews were conducted with Weber State College Alumni on an ongoing basis. ; The following is an oral history interview with Dr. Helen Horne Farr. It was conducted on June 5, 2014 by Jamie Weeks. In the interview, Helen discusses her time spent at Weber College as a student from 1941 to 1943 and then as an instructor in the nursing program from 1959 to 1987. ; 28p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Helen Horne Farr Interviewed by Jamie J. Weeks 5 June 2014 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Helen Horne Farr Interviewed by Jamie J. Weeks 5 June 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College Oral History Program was created in the early 1970s to "record and document, through personal reminiscences, the history, growth and development of Weber State College." Through interviews with administrators, faculty and students, the program's goal was to expand the documentary holdings on Weber State College and its predecessor entities. From 1970 to 1976, the program conducted some fifteen interviews, under the direction of, and generally conducted by Harold C. Bateman, an emeritus professor of history. In 1979, under the direction of archivist John Sillito, the program was reestablished and six interviews were conducted between 1979 and 1983, with additional interviews being conducted by members of the Weber State community. In 2013 the campus prepared to celebrate the 125th Anniversary of Weber State University in 2014. In order to document the student experience, interviews were conducted with Weber State College Alumni on an ongoing basis. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Farr, Helen Horne, an oral history by Jamie J. Weeks, 5 June 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Helen Horne Farr June 5, 2014 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Dr. Helen Horne Farr. It was conducted on June 5, 2014 by Jamie Weeks. In the interview, Helen discusses her time spent at Weber College as a student from 1941 to 1943 and then as an instructor in the nursing program from 1959 to 1987. JW: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Helen Horne Farr. It is being conducted on June 5, 2014 in her home in Ogden, Utah and the interviewer is Jamie Weeks. The subject of this interview is her time spent at Weber State College as a student from 1941 to 1943 and then as an instructor in the nursing program from 1959 to 1987. Also present is Stacie Gallagher our video technician. To begin with I'd like to ask you just about your early family life-when and where you were born and maybe a little background about your childhood. HF: I was born in my grandparent's home in Smithfield, Utah on August 12, 1923. My parents had another girl who was 21 months old when I was born. During my birth, mother hemorrhaged. The doctor was afraid that she would die and said that I was too little and wouldn't live anyway. He put me aside and took care of mother. My grandmother wisely picked me up, cleaned me and put me in a flannel lined shoebox in a coal stove oven and saved my life. I stayed in that shoebox for about six weeks and bonded very closely with my grandmother because of that. JW: Were you tiny? 1 HF: Yes. They said they measured me with two pounds of butter and that's how much they thought I weighed, but you know, farmers didn't know how much the butter really weighed, but I was a very tiny baby. Grandmother Toolson was wise enough to know to use an eyedropper to feed me. That's how I survived. JW: Oh my word, what a wonderful story. HF: Isn't that something that many years ago? 1923, that's almost a century ago. JW: Right. HF: My father was the principal of Burley High School. They had to leave for him to start school in September, so they left me with my grandparents until Christmas time. My father had an opportunity to coach at Midvale Junior High School, so we moved to Midvale. During the depression when I was in the 5th grade, the Jordon School District ran out of money early in the spring. We returned to Smithfield and stayed with my grandparents. Elaine and I enrolled in school there. I enjoyed the classes and meeting new friends. Then my father had the opportunity to move to Ogden to teach math and coach at Washington Jr. High School. That was about two days before my twelfth birthday. I'll never forget that birthday because we were very poor. It took all our money for us to move. For my breakfast that morning there was a grapefruit on the plate and my dad kept saying, "Why don't you pick up that plate, there's something wrong with it." I didn't know why he wanted me to do that, but when I picked it up there was a whole dollar bill. I thought I was the richest girl in the world. So, that was a birthday that I'll always remember. 2 Elaine and I enrolled at Lewis Junior High School. At Christmas time, the principal met with my parents to suggest that my sister and I could skip a grade. My parents decided against us moving up a grade. They bought a home at 3297 Adams Ave. and Elaine and I transferred to Washington Junior High School. I served as student body vice president in the 10th grade. We were the fourth class to graduate from the beautiful new "Million Dollar" Ogden High School. The student body was over 1500 junior and senior students. I was a member of the Student Council and the Pep Club. Those were two special years. We had a great time at Ogden High and I thought that was the best school in the world. From there I went on to Weber Junior College located at 25th and Jefferson Ave. JW: So you started with Weber in— HF: The fall of 1941 (Appendix A). JW: The reason I'm asking that is because we're missing yearbooks from 1943 to 1946, so I just wondered what happened. HF: I really don't know—World War II may have made supplies unavailable. In 1941 when we enrolled, Weber was a wonderful school. I don't know whether people have told you how that campus was organized, but it had just three buildings-the beautiful Moench Building, the Gym Building and one classroom building. West of that was President Dixon's home where his family lived. The Moench Building was just a beautiful building; it had a huge auditorium in it. We had all of our assemblies there. This is something that probably will never happen again, but every Tuesday we had an assembly at eleven 3 o'clock. The student body was filled with talent. The girls' and boys' clubs took turns presenting the programs. We enjoyed all of the singing, dancing and plays. We closed the assembly by singing "Purple and White" with J. Clair Anderson at the organ. I know "Purple and White" perfectly, and now very few students, graduates and faculty can sing this song. The student body was mostly Ogden High graduates, with some Davis County and Box Elder graduates. We had two or three men that came from Hawaii to be on the football team, but they didn't stay. They just kind of moved in and out. We had a wonderful student body, and became very close friends. It wasn't a very big student body. I don't know how many there were, but it couldn't be too large because our class sizes were only about fifteen or twenty in a room. Those first two years, Dr. Dixon was just so nice to us. It's like he said, "We were just the Weber Family". He knew most of us by name. JW: It was such a different time than it is now with so many clubs, sororities and fraternities, and they were all very active. HF: Oh yes, and very competitive. I don't know how it was after I'd left, I guess it was pretty much the same, but La Dianaeda and Otyokwa were always trying to compete and so were Phoenix and Excelsior. It was just a different type of student body than there is now. JW: You knew everyone attending the school? 4 HF: I practically knew everybody. That freshman year I was elected Freshman Representative for the Associated Women Students. I also joined La Dianaeda, which was a social club, and the Whip Club (Appendix B). We had a good time. We really enjoyed that wonderful first year. During that year, in December 1941, Pearl Harbor happened. That didn't change too much of our lifestyle, we all felt badly about it, but we all were in school and nothing really seemed to change with us. The boys just stayed in school. Then the next year I was elected President of Associated Women Students and the boys stayed enrolled. However, in April of that year, a month before graduation, most of them were drafted except about five boys who had health problems then. That was a very sad time. We put flags on all the boys' lockers the next day. That night they all had to go on the train to wherever they had to go, so we all went down to the train station to tell them goodbye. JW: It would be so life changing, to have all the boys leave at the same time. HF: When we graduated it was just those few boys and all of us girls. JW: Wow, so this was April of 1943 when they were all drafted? HF: Yes. HF: Those were all good friends. The Dixon family was very supportive and at that time we were all the "Weber Family." President Dixon always said, "The Weber Family will be doing this, the Weber Family will be doing that." He was just a good leader for us. Most of us didn't have much money. We had Shoeless Shuffle dances when we couldn't get shoes during the war. We just had a lot of fun. It was great. At the end of fall quarter in 5 1943, a friend of mine, Marjorie McKee, and I thought about becoming nurses. We went to the Thomas D. Dee Memorial Hospital to inquire about it and submitted an application. Both of us were admitted to the school nursing for the winter quarter. That spring during our final assembly, I received a leadership award and a scholarship for nursing from the Alpha Chi Omega sorority. So that really did help my family. JW: In the Signpost it says you were also on the honor roll. You must have been a good student too (Appendix C). HF: I have to say that I had to be for my dad. Since he was in education and he was very well-liked and respected in Ogden. If I'd done anything wrong it would have been terrible for him. I was very close to him, so I just was miss goody-two-shoes. JW: How many siblings did you have? HF: Just the one sister, Elaine, who was older than I. Those were fun days at Weber, they really were. JW: Who were some of your favorite professors? HF: I remember Lydia Tanner taught cooking. She could make a pound of hamburger in a great big pot that would serve the whole student body. I never saw a pound of hamburger go so far. We, as students, had to make that soup, but she'd tell us how to chop things up and season the food. She was a wonderful instructor. One of the things that I remember is that you could never leave anything in the sink. If you have a utensil that you used, you washed it and dried it and put it away. 6 Besides her, I had Sheldon Hayes for Biology and Walter Neville for Sociology. There was Marian Read who taught English, Ernest Miner taught science. Other faculty were Thatcher Allred—speech and drama, Roland Perry—music and Whitney Young— science. Reed Swenson and Merlin Stevenson were coaches. Clarisse Hall was the registrar at that time, and the next year she became the Dean of Students. Did I tell you Leland Monson taught Shakespeare? JW: No, but I do know who he was. HF: He was wonderful. We really had a wonderful faculty. I just don't know how we could have been so lucky to have such a good teachers, but we did. We all liked our teachers, we didn't skip classes, we stayed in class and I think everybody who was there our second year graduated. JW: That is a big accomplishment; to keep all of the students in school and have them all obtain a degree. HF: Our tuition was practically nothing and I remember people saying a few years before that they would bring produce from their garden and eggs for tuition. JW: Yes, they paid in-kind with eggs, produce, and livestock. HF: We paid, but it wasn't very much, I know. My whole expenses going to Weber the entire two years plus the few classes we had in nursing while we were still at Weber were less than $300.00 dollars. Now you can't even go one quarter for that amount. JW: No, you cannot. 7 HF: We had a wonderful student body though. They were just really, really nice people. JW: You graduated and then you were admitted into the Dee School of Nursing? HF: When we applied they immediately admitted us for winter quarter. At that time, The School of Nursing had classes two times a year - a January class and a June class. We went right into the January class, but we were allowed to stay home. We took the science classes that were required in nursing at Weber and other required courses. We lived at home for the two quarters and graduated from Weber in 1943 (Appendix D). JW: From there did you move to the Dee School? HF: Yes, then we had to move to the Dee School of Nursing on 24th and Harrison there. HF: The Dee student body president always had the top north room. First year students lived on the basement floor. On the main floor were the second year students and on the third floor were the seniors. JW: How long did it take you to go through the nursing program? HF: Three years. The total cost was $199.50 for tuition, books and uniforms. JW: So, you went through the nursing program and then did you immediately start working at the Dee Hospital? HF: No, I didn't. When I finished nursing school in 1946, I wanted to continue college and earn a BS degree. I inquired at the University of Utah and learned my credits from Weber were transferrable. I needed twenty-two more credit hours to graduate. I couldn't 8 enroll in the University of Utah that winter quarter because it was too late by the time we had graduated from nursing school. We were so afraid of state boards and we studied every day prior to spring quarter when I attended at the U of U. I don't know how they let me do this because I don't think most universities would do that now, but I was permitted to take twenty-two credit hours. That was a lot—fifteen hours was usually the regular number of hours per quarter. So, I did that and graduated from the University. I was elected into Phi Kappa Phi and graduated with honors. I really enjoyed the University that spring quarter, but I didn't get much opportunity to meet very many other students. I took an astronomy class because that was one of the sciences I needed. I sat by a bunch of celestial navigators who had just been discharged from the war. They probably knew a lot more about it than our instructor did. They coached me. I never could have passed that class if they hadn't helped me. That was a nice class, I can still remember that. I also took creative writing, home decorating and an abnormal psychology class. JW: At the University of Utah? HF: Yes. JW: Where did you get your bachelor's degree from? HF: I got my bachelor's degree in education in the spring of 1946 from the University of Utah and then I became the night supervisor at the Dee Hospital. That was my first job. My land, I was supervising people whom I had lived with in the nursing school for all those 9 years. But it was a nice experience. I didn't like night duty and soon became the Head Nurse on the Pediatric Unit. I was living with a family near the hospital when I met my husband who came to take some pictures of the family and their new baby. He had just been discharged from the Navy. When he was taking pictures, I remember I was baking some cookies and the cookies burned. It was an awful smell, but he said, "Well, they're just chocolate now." I can't remember what they were. My roommate was a former classmate in nursing school. The next day he called Max and said, "I'd like to have a date with that little blonde." Well, Max thought it was Louise because she was blonde also. So, Louise and I went down and we bought a pretty dress for her and some shoes. That's when you wore hats and gloves. She was all dolled up when he came pick her up. He had a big bouquet of flowers and a box of candy for her before they went out. The next morning she said, "That was the craziest date; all he wanted to do was talk about you." I said, "He just needed to have something to talk about." The next day he called Max and said, "You gave me the wrong girl." So then, Max said, 'Well, Helen's not dating until her boyfriend gets home." Max told him I had this ring that I needed to give back but that didn't deter my husband one bit. I returned the engagement ring and dated several boys including my husband. He kept coming when we were trying to study for state boards, I wanted to crown him. I didn't think that much about him at first. Then, I guess he wore me down. We took state boards in the early summer and passed. My husband and I both liked football and that following Thanksgiving we went to a football game at the U of U. He showed me a 10 diamond ring. It was way too—just too gaudy. I didn't want it, I just wanted something simple. So, I said, "I don't want to get married. I want to be an airline stewardess." That was my whole plan was to be an airline stewardess. JW: Instead of nursing? HF: You had to be an RN to be a stewardess at that time. At Christmas time he took me down to the airport to apply to be a stewardess. I found out that after the war they only wanted tall stewardesses and I wasn't tall enough for the larger planes. That Christmas, my husband gave me a silk pant set and some nylon stockings, which you could never get during the war, and a beautiful poinsettia. It was the tallest poinsettia I've ever seen. My folks had moved out to North Ogden then and he wanted me to look at this poinsettia and I was just getting tired of it by the afternoon. I said, "Let's go visit Helen and Max and some other people." "Oh, just look at that poinsettia." I just thought, "I don't want to see that poinsettia one more minute." I finally stood up and then looked down and there was my diamond ring on the branch of that tree. So, I thought, I really do love you. Then I took the ring. We were married the next year in 1947. My husband did crazy things like that. One Christmas he put a watch on a gold ornament and I didn't see it until I was taking the tree down. He was always doing things like that. JW: It sounds like he was very romantic. HF: Oh, he liked to make surprises. He really did. Anyway, then we were married and I didn't work for a while because I had my five children in eight years. So, I was a busy mother. 11 JW: Yes you were. How many grandkids do you have? HF: Oh goodness. I have fourteen grandchildren and fourteen great-grandchildren. JW: And five children keep you very, very busy, right? HF: Our first four children are boys; Paul, Craig, Brent and Randall. Carol, our daughter, was the fifth. They all had chores, not always completed, and an Indian girl from the Intermountain Indian School in Brigham City helped me each Saturday. I spent Sundays using the Ironrite all afternoon. I had little time for myself. I am very proud that all of our children are college graduates. Two earned doctorate degrees. Paul became an attorney and Craig is a board certified toxicologist. Brent is an industrial engineer with Master's degree in Business Administration and Randall earned his degree in Political Science. Carol, a single mother, returned to Weber, graduated in nursing and earned a BS degree. JW: Let's go back. You stayed home with five children and then when did you decide to go back to work? HF: I went back to work as a part time supervisor at the Dee Hospital. In 1953 Ruth Stewart (now Swenson) called and asked me if I would be willing to teach in the new nursing program at Weber. I told her that I had three small children and was too busy. The next spring, I did some special duty nursing. We could pick and choose the days we were able to work. I did that for a while and then St. Benedict's Hospital started their three-year nursing program and they had a nursery for the nurses' children. I taught there from 1956 until 1958. 12 Leola Davidson happened to see me during the summer of 1959 and she said, "Why don't you come to Weber to teach?" So, I guess she told Ruth Swenson. Ruth called me and asked if I would be willing to come here and teach. That was in 1959 when I started at Weber. Geraldine Hansen, a recent graduate of the Weber associate degree nursing program, had earned a BS degree from the U of U and was also hired. By that time, Weber College had moved to the new campus on Harrison Blvd. There were three small, one story buildings and a Quonset hut. Administration and registration were in building I; the printing department; social sciences and English were in building II; and Natural Science and nursing were in building III. The Quonset hut was known as the TUB, temporary Union Building. The nursing program was initiated when Ruth Swenson was a friend of Mildred Montag while attending Columbia University. In 1951, Mildred was in a doctoral program and chose as her thesis hypothesis that "It might be possible to educate students in a junior or community college to perform those functions commonly associated with the registered nurse". Weber Junior college was one of seven schools west of the Mississippi chosen to offer the two year nursing program. Ruth Swenson was appointed director. She and Marjorie Somers developed the program. In 1953, thirty-six women enrolled. They all passed state boards, as have most of the students throughout the years. JW: I read that you were the fourth woman to be hired as faculty at Weber State. HF: That's true. Loy Doss, LaPrele Neville and Leola Davidson were on the faculty. In the early 1960's, the Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN) program of thirty students merged with the Associate Degree program of sixty students. This made a total of ninety freshmen 13 students. Each year there were over 700 applicants. We felt we had the best students on campus. They were all high achievers. This required additional faculty. Karen Beaver, Sonia Parker, Norma Hansen, Ruth Brown and Arlene Stein and several clinical faculty were hired. I loved the students and looked forward toward each fall to greeting and orienting them into the nursing program. About ten years after the two year program began I went to a National Nurses Association conference in San Francisco. This was in the mid-sixties. I think there were three delegates from Utah. You had so many delegates for how the membership was in that state. Anyway, it was a large group of women and I don't remember any men being there. We didn't have very many male students. The whole week was almost all dedicated to "what are we going to do with these associate degree nurses who are passing state boards". Here we had three hard years of hospital school nursing and four years in the collegiate program, now these two year graduates think they can do anything. The Weber students were actually called the "Weber Wonders" when they first started. The delegates discussed what they could do and what they couldn't do and they even said, "You're a 'Weber Wonder'," to them when they first graduated. So it was a different world then. It's amazing, during that convention, the whole time was spent on trying to figure you how we could resolve this. They finally voted and passed a resolution to the National League of Nursing to write a separate test for these associate degree nursing graduates. They believed the two year nurses could be technical nurses or associate degree nurses or some other label, but they should not be RN's because 14 they just didn't have enough education or nursing experience. Well, they proposed that to the League of Nursing and the League was so busy trying to accredit new schools of nursing that they never did write another test. So it went on for a few years and that was it. The two year program stayed and they're doing well. Now Weber has branched out to all these different campuses. It's wonderful what they've done. In 1969, Ruth Swenson passed away. I was always sorry that she was never promoted to Full Professor. Leola Davidson became the department chair. She was childless and able to devote a great deal of time to nursing. She also assisted the part time Dean, Reed Stringham, a dentist who was on campus three days a week. The last day of Spring quarter 1972, Leola announced Gerry Hansen would be her assistant and assume the role of department chair. JW: Interesting. HF: I can remember that whole week there was so much bitterness and so much animosity. I'm glad that it worked out like it did because we do have some very good nurses that graduated from our program. They've become leaders in nursing and done well. JW: The school newspaper states, "Making her the first instructor in the nursing program and the fourth woman on campus to be named a professor." HF: Yes. That's right. I was the fourth woman on campus to ever be named professor. Isn't that amazing? I didn't realize that at the time how amazing that was because it was difficult to get promoted since we didn't have a nursing doctoral program. In 1977 less than 1% of nurses in the country had earned doctorates in other fields. If you had a 15 master's degree you thought you had really done well. Most of the nurses were diploma graduates from the hospitals. Those of us with a BS degree thought we were sitting pretty good. We found out, when we became college faculty, advanced degrees were very necessary. Committees had very tight criteria for tenure and promotion. You had to have those degrees before you could be advanced. I was very lucky to get that professorship. It's probably because I was very active on campus with other committees and had excellent student evaluations. I didn't receive my doctorate degree until after I was made a full professor. JW: I'm just trying to get the timeline right. You came to work at Weber and started as an instructor in 1959 and then in 1969 you received your master's degree. Were you working in Ogden and driving down to the University of Utah in Salt Lake? HF: Yes, I was working full-time in Ogden with five children. JW: This is what I couldn't believe because I kept thinking, "She's working and trying to get another degree and has this large family." HF: I enrolled in night school. After one quarter in graduate school, one of the professors, Dr. Cecil Samuelson, offered me a stipend in rehabilitation, which I really appreciated. I had some wonderful professors; I just can't tell you how excellent they were and I got through it somehow. I received my MS degree in 1969 and was promoted to Professor in 1977. During those years, I was very active in the Utah Nurses Association and held every office in District #2. There were about 1800 members in the state association and it was a total surprise to be nominated as Utah Nurse of the Year in 1976. One of the 16 other nominees was Dean of the School of Nursing at the University of Utah and had a doctoral degree. When I received the award, I was overwhelmed. JW: Let's talk about that really quickly and then we will go back. In 1976, you then started a doctorate program at BYU? HF: There were six of us. Leola Davidson, Ruth Brown, Karen Beaver, Geri Hanson and I were from Weber and Jean Law was from McKay Dee Hospital. There were six of us that were selected. We carpooled every day all the way to Provo and then in the summer we had to be on campus, so my husband and I went down and found two apartments and we thought three in each apartment would be fine. Leola Davison, Ruth Brown and I shared an apartment. You know that doctoral program was fun. Well, let me tell you what, Leola smoked all the time. Of course BYU has very strict religious rules. This doctoral program was started in 1976 with seventy-six people in the program from Idaho, Colorado, California and Utah. One time, the BYU president, Dallin H. Oaks, called us all into a meeting and said, "We have heard that several of you are having cocktails before dinner. If you choose to do this, you'll have to leave the University. You have to abide by the rules." Well, Leola was smoking like a trooper and I'd bring my clothes home and my husband would smell my clothes and he'd say, "These just reek of smoke." I'd say, "I can't help it," she just smoked one cigarette after another when we were studying, but we never got caught. One day though, we were having some finals and testing and we felt we've got to have some coffee to keep ourselves alert and awake, so we all took this little 17 thermos of coffee with us, but we never could find a spot where we could drink it. So, we brought the coffee home. JW: Because you couldn't have coffee on campus. HF: No coffee, no liquor. The liquor didn't bother any of us. Some class members from California left the program. I don't know how many. With that many people you don't count how many are still in your class. There were some who just could not leave that alone. JW: Interesting. Let's go back and talk about your time at Weber. From everything I've read, you made some huge changes for women on campus. HF: That's the one thing I'm really proud of. JW: I'm so proud of you, because I've worked my whole life and it's a struggle even now. You always have to fight for equality. HF: In the spring of 1972, Dr. Helmut Hoffman was the Academic Vice President. He called the female faculty to a meeting and explained there was a wave of unrest across the country of faculty women realizing that they had the same education, the same experience, the same time at the institution as their male counterparts and were making much less money. So, he encouraged us to organize and try to get this solved on our campus. I wasn't aware of any salary discrepancies because the Nursing Department had all women faculty. 18 A commission was formed and I was elected chairman. Inge Adams, from the Foreign Language department and Bonnie Fitzgerald from the library were elected committee members. I drafted a constitution for the Commission of the Status of Women at Weber State College and shared it with the deans and members of the faculty senate. The three of us didn't know what to do. I said, "I don't know how to start this, I have no idea." So, it took us about a year to get our thoughts together. We finally drafted a sheet on each faculty member with these criteria: education (institution, years attended and degrees), teaching experience (years at other institutions and years at Weber), evaluations (if available) and current salary. Representatives from Weber, U of U, USU and BYU met monthly to share information. I served as state chairman in 1974. We kind of frightened the deans, though I don't know how we could; we didn't look that scary to me. We started with a list of the female faculty members and who their male counterparts might be. We'd see how much the male counterpart earned and how much this person earned and then we compared their credentials against the evaluation criteria. If the criteria matched, we realized where the women faculty member's salary should be set. It was not only the women that were given the equalization, but also, we helped some men too. We also had some new faculty members coming in that were not being given the salaries that they should have received (Appendix E). Eventually, we knew all faculty salaries. It took a long time and I'd get home sometimes so tired because I was still teaching full-time and trying to do this. It was very nerve wracking because those deans were—they thought they were God. I went to the 19 legislature twice to appeal for money to equalize salaries. By 1975, we finally completed the equalization. After all this work that I did, Dr. Jerry Storey, the Academic Vice President, gave me a third time off in 1975 to remain Chairman. I had a third time off, but I had so many other duties that I never could take that time off. It was ironic, but I never ever could. I was on a lot of school committees. I served on the tenure committee and I was very active on the whole campus. I just didn't have any time to take any time off. I loved the students. I just loved the students and felt responsible for them. JW: You served for the Phi Kappa Phi, right? HF: I was secretary, and then in 1974, I was president. Weber State hosted the first International Women's Year Conference in Utah in 1975. I served as chairman. The theme was "Invest in Yourself, Share the Dividends". It was well attended with numerous positive evaluations. JW: Tell us a little bit about your trip to China. It said in the paper that you were working— HF: I was doing my dissertation for my Doctorate in Higher Education Administration at that time. This all happened because I was invited to attend a conference on the Incorporation of Cultural Diversity in Nursing Curriculum. This conference was over a three year time period. We met twice a year during that time. There were about twelve junior colleges involved in this. We learned a lot about different cultures. Most of the time was spent discussing how to get the faculty to start changing the curriculum. Faculty are set on a path in the curriculum and don't want to change it. That was the project, to try to get the different schools to change their curriculum to include cultural 20 diversity. That's what prompted me to do my dissertation. Our faculty revised the curriculum to include culture diversity. JW: It is interesting, and what I read was your article in the Signpost (Appendix F). HF: What did it say? JW: It talks about you working towards your dissertation and how you spent twenty-four days on cultural diversity and studying the health and education of the Chinese people. HF: I tried to get into the clinics. They didn't speak English and I didn't know any Chinese, but I learned a lot about acupuncture during that time and it was very interesting. JW: It said that you learned a lot about holistic healing and that the Chinese were more about holistic healing and letting the body tell you what's wrong and how to heal itself instead of using western medicine. It's an interesting little article. HF: I forgot about that. JW: Tell us about your service on Faculty Senate. HF: Yes, I was on the Faculty Senate twice. We approved recommendations from the various committees. I was on a lot of committees—the tenure committee, the curriculum committee and the ranking committee. I was on the salary committee for a long, long time. I chaired that committee right after I resigned from being the chairman of the Women's Commission, so I knew all the salaries and it was a good thing to be able to be on that committee. I watched and made sure the women were protected then. 21 JW: Does the Women's Commission still exist? HF: Oh no. I'll tell you what happened. When I went to get my doctorate, I thought, "I can't do this anymore. I've got to stop something." By then, all of the salaries were equalized, so I resigned from that position. They gave that job to Forrest Crawford. It just went downhill from then on. It was a lot of work, but I don't know how salaries are now. I just know that it's not as equal as it was. I don't have any idea how much difference there is now, but I know there is some. So, that's what happened to the Women's Commission. JW: It's just a fact of life for women, isn't it? HF: Yes. JW: I guess the other things I saw were your Crystal Crest Award. HF: Oh I was so surprised with that. I had no idea that was coming, no idea at all. They asked me to be one of the people to show nominees two different homes and enjoy lunch with them. I remember I spent all day doing that. My husband had the flu and I really wanted to be home with him. He was very sick. I said, "Do you feel like you could come to this award ceremony." He said, "Oh, I would rather not." Monte Shupe insisted that I come but I really didn't want to go. I remember calling my husband at about 6:30 just before the meeting was supposed to start to ask how he felt. He sounded terrible. But, I went and I was just completely surprised. It was a shocker! JW: The award, just to put it in, stated, "Helen Farr has been President of the Association of Women Students and has been in the U.S. Cadet Nursing Corps. She has held every 22 office including President of the Utah Nursing Association and was the Utah Chair of the First International Women's Conference." That's a great award. After you won that award, you continued working and then you retired? HF: Let's see. When was that Crystal Crest? JW: 1984. HF: I kept teaching. I was honored as professor of the year at the university in 1985. My husband had a mild stroke in the fall of 1986 and I decided I better stay home with him. So I retired at the end of Fall quarter in 1986. The students planned a surprise retirement party, with delicious food and a humorous program. The presented me a block "W" Weber State plaque. I loved teaching, I just loved it. The Student Nurses Association of Utah honored me as the "Outstanding Nurse Educator" in 1986. Leola Davidson, Ruth Brown, and Norma Hansen retired at the end of the school year in 1987. A retirement reception was held for the four of us that spring. In the fall of 1989, I attended a Weber State football game. During halftime, President Nadauld presented me with a Silver Weber State Centennial Medallion. JW: I do not have information about that, I'm glad you brought that up. HF: Well, I don't know why I wrote this, it must have been for something, but you're welcome to have a copy of this. (Helen's Memories of Weber State, Appendix G). JW: Is there anything on there that we've missed? 23 HF: Our oldest son was an attorney, and was killed in an automobile accident on January 14, 1987. My husband had a difficult time with his death and then in March of that same year my husband died. I'd left my job a few months before. Leaving my job at Weber State, and the deaths of my son and husband all happened very close. Leola Davidson said my stress chart was clear off the board. I was really stressed, but you know, you have to get over it. You have to find a way to recover. JW: And you have to keep going. You don't have any other options. HF: Yes, that's true. JW: You have a lot of community service along with your service at Weber. HF: I did. Before I forget though, I wanted to tell you in the fifties, there was a time when Governor J. Bracken Lee wanted to dissolve all of the junior colleges. I can remember that so well and how much that concerned the entire campus. I don't know enough about that background, but I can remember how we were all concerned. That was an experience that I will not forget. JW: That was with—wasn't it President Miller that had to fight to keep Weber State because J. Bracken Lee wanted to shut it down. HF: Right. It was President Miller. He was an excellent administrator. I really liked and respected him. Following President Miller, Joseph Bishop was president. He was followed by Rodney Brady and Stephen Nadauld. Then Faye Preece and I became Co- Chairman of the Emeriti Faculty Association. 24 JW: When Stephen Nadauld was there? HF: Yes, when Stephen Nadauld was there. We were allowed to go down to the Board of Regents meeting when they decided that Weber State would be a University. I remember that so vividly because the University of Utah Regent was just so adamant that Weber and the other state colleges should not be universities. He said, "They should not be universities. There is no way they should be universities." He was just almost yelling at the top of his voice. Well, the vote finally came and our student body president was able to vote. It was one extra affirmative vote that made Weber into a university. I was so thrilled. JW: It was such a fight for a long time. I think that's one of the things about Weber State is the fight to survive has always been there. It was a church school and then the church wanted to do away with it, and then the community had to pick it up. I mean, it's been a fight every step of the way. HF: It has. We've had some marvelous leadership those first hundred years. Actually, Weber State University has done really well, especially these last ten years that Ann Milner was president. She really promoted Weber, was such a good person in the legislature and accomplished numerous projects for Weber. During her speeches she often mentioned that the "WSU Nursing Program was ranked Seventh in the nation". JW: She's changed so many things on campus. HF: She did. That was her whole life. 25 JW: Yes, I cannot say enough good things about what she has accomplished. HF: That's true. JW: What are you most proud of during your time at Weber? HF: Probably the students. They have become excellent registered nurses. Many of them are in leadership positions, scholastic research endeavors and community involvement. Several of them still write or phone me. They frequently remind me of one of my favorite thoughts, "No one cares about what you know until they know how much you care". In 2010, twenty-four years after I retired, the Weber State University Alumni Association honored and surprised me by presenting the Lewis W. Shurtliff Award for Contributions to Education. I really enjoyed the students and the teaching. I almost tear up when I talk about it, but that was such a surprise to me. JW: The way they wrote it up is: "After serving as head nurse in the pediatric unit of Dee Hospital and teaching at St. Benedict's Hospital, Helen Farr joined the faculty of Weber College in 1959, making her the first instructor in the nursing program and the fourth woman on campus to be named a professor. A 1943 graduate of Weber College, she taught 27 years at her alma mater, where she was also the coordinator of the nursing program." HF: Right. That's nice the way they wrote that. JW: It is a wonderful award and it's a nice ceremony that they have for this. 26 HF: It is. It really is. You think after you've left that many years that you won't be remembered, but that was a real surprise. JW: Well, and it hasn't been that long ago, 2010. HF: It hasn't. I still hear from my students. A lot of my students still call me and that's been a span of fifty-five years. You don't have those relationships all the time, especially with students. Anyway, I think the School of Nursing is doing very well. JW: It's made a big difference and it's nice to have an area like the nursing program that is so nationally acclaimed and it really is just— HF: One of our graduates, Marlene Summer, who was in the last class that I taught that fall quarter, is now President of the Sigma Theta Tau International Honors Society of Nursing in the state of Utah. The criteria for membership are very rigid, based on a highly educated faculty, average student GPA, record of National Board examinations and community endeavors. The University of Utah asked me to be a charter member of their chapter in 1972. They had just started their BS program in the College of Nursing and they had an excellent reputation. I didn't know what Sigma Theta Tau was and I said to my husband, "I don't think I want to go down to the University of Utah. I don't have any affiliation with the U," and he said, "You better do it." So, I did go down and become a member. In the mid 1980's, the Weber State Nursing Program requested to become a chapter and had received several information and guideline letters from the national headquarters in Indiana. I was asked to work on the application following my retirement. 27 A representative from the U of U and I met several times to prepare information for submission to the national office. Now, twenty-two years later, the Weber State chapter has won many awards in leadership, scholarship and community endeavors. It is internationally recognized as an outstanding chapter. JW: Is there anything that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about? HF: No, I've just loved you both being here. It's brought back a lot of nice memories. JW: It's been such an incredible story. We both really enjoy this so we don't limit our time schedule. We just make sure we have plenty of time. HF: I had so many good experiences at Weber and have many nice memories. I didn't have one year I didn't enjoy. It was nice. JW: It is really the alumni that have this love for Weber that are helping to keep it going and helping to keep that spirit alive. HF: Do you have a lot of faculty that feel like I do? JW: Everybody that went to school at the same time you did feels the same way you do. HF: They do? I think I'm probably one of the oldest ones you've interview though, aren't I? JW: Probably. HF: That's why I thought you needed to hear my story because I knew I was probably one of the oldest ones. 28 JW: Yes, because a lot of them weren't there in the years that you were there. JW: You've been single for since 1987, and you are still able to do so many things, so that's really good. HF: Well, I like to and as long as I have a mind and I hope it's working. You know, if people tell me I don't say things right I'll know I'm losing it. JW: I think as long as you're keeping busy and making your mind work and playing cards it helps. HF: I hope you would realize how wonderful those first two years at Weber were though. Well, I liked every year at Weber really. I was sorry to have to retire, but I'm glad I did because I knew my husband needed me to be home. JW: You did get some time with him. You were busy, just crazy busy all the time. HF: I don't know how I stayed on all those committees like I did, but I was willing to do it and that did help me learn a lot about the different campus people. I knew their names, but didn't really know them. This helped me learn more about the campus people and it was a wonderful group of people, the faculty, staff and students. JW: We sure appreciate you letting us come today. HF: Thank you very much. 29 Appendix A Appendix B-1 Appendix B-2 Appendix B-3 Appendix B-4 Appendix C Appendix D

H. DeWayne Ashmead ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 66p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Harvey DeWayne Ashmead Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 22 October 2012 29 October 2012 26 November 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Harvey DeWayne Ashmead Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 22 October 2012 29 October 2012 26 November 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Ashmead, Harvey DeWayne, an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 22 and 29 October 2012 and 26 November 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. H. DeWayne Ashmead November 26, 2012 1 Abstract: H. DeWayne Ashmead (DOB: June 4, 1944), President and CEO of Albion Laboratories, Inc., shared his oral history with Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University during the months of October and November 2012. DeWayne sat with Rebecca in his executive office and shared stories about his life, including his childhood, his education, the history of Albion, Inc., his family, and his partnership with Weber State University. DeWayne spoke in detail about his father and the history of the Albion minerals business. DeWayne also expanded on his background in joining the company and developing Albion Laboratories into what it is today ROH: Today is Monday, October 22, 2012. We are in the office of Albion Laboratories. Present are H. DeWayne Ashmead and Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University. I would like to get started by asking you to state your name and tell me where and when you were born. DA: My full name is Harvey DeWayne Ashmead. I am named after my father, Harvey. I was born June 6, 1944, on D-Day in Brigham City. I could have had a lot of different middle names. My mother debated whether or not to name me Dwight after Dwight Eisenhower because it was D-day and he led the D-day forces. Ultimately, she decided to name me DeWayne, the "De" standing for D-day. ROH: Were you born in the hospital or at home? DA: In the hospital. My father was the head pharmacist at Bushnell General Hospital in Brigham City and my mother was also working at the hospital. There was a 2 4,500 bed hospital for the soldiers, but I was born in the civilian Brigham City Hospital not the military hospital. ROH: Why don't you tell me a little bit about your parents and your childhood? DA: My parents were really cool. I have often said that when I grew up I wanted to be just like my dad, so I'll start with him. His name was Harvey. He was born in a log cabin out on the prairie in 1916. This was in Camas County, Idaho near a community that no longer exist called Corral. He grew up riding horses and doing all the things kids did I suppose. When he was a toddler, the Indians tried to steal him and when they couldn't steal him they tried to buy him. Apparently, he was very attractive to the Indians. He grew up helping his father and brothers on what became the family farm at Corral. It was initially a cattle ranch until his father got into a dispute with the sheep men. The sheep men won, so the cattle had to be sold and they converted the ranch to a farm. He went to a single classroom grade school through the eighth grade with a single teacher that taught all of the grades at once. When he went to high school in the ninth grade, he had to move away from home and board with a family in the city of Fairfield about 10 miles away from home. At that point in time, it was too far to commute. He would stay there all winter and go to high school there. When he graduated from high school, his father wanted him to come back and help him on the farm. My dad wanted to go to college. My grandfather said, "That's stupid. I've got an eighth grade education and I've been very successful. 3 You've got a high school education you don't need to go to college." My dad persisted and he had to send himself to college and support himself. He used to say he was the best latrine cleaner around, which I suppose means that he was a janitor. ROH: Where did he go to college? ZD: He went to Idaho State University and graduated in pharmacy. Initially, that's what he wanted to do. My grandfather, upon learning that he was studying pharmacy, gave my father a little bit of money to help him in college because he recalled that during prohibition the local pharmacist made the best moonshine of anyone in the valley. He assumed that what my father was learning how to do was to make moonshine. Anyway, my father became a pharmacist. Later on in life he did not practice pharmacy, but he still maintained the license. After he was married to my mother, they went off to graduate school. My mother wanted to get a degree in speech pathology and my father wanted to get a medical doctor's degree. They went to Washington State University. They almost starved to death, so they had to come back and live in the real world. That's about when I was born. Ultimately, my father got a doctor's degree in biochemistry and considered himself to be a biochemist, not a pharmacist. My mother came from a family that was much more interested in education. My grandfather, who was born in the 1880's, had a bachelor's degree from the University of Utah. My grandmother had a degree from BYU. Since both had college degrees it was expected that all of their children would go to college. 4 My mother went to Utah State University and got her bachelor's degree in English and was qualified to be a school teacher. She wanted to go on for graduate work. Ultimately, she did her master's work at the University of Denver and got her master's degree and doctoral degree at the University of Utah in speech pathology and oral myology. They were both highly educated. ROH: Yes, indeed. Were you all expected to go to college? DA: Yes. I have three sisters. Two of them went to college. My oldest sister, who is three years younger than I, went to one year of college and said, "I don't like this." She got married instead. My other two sisters went on and both got bachelor's degrees and one got her doctorate. We were expected to go to college. ROH: Tell me a little bit about growing up and your childhood leading up to when you started grade school. Do you have any stories or memories from childhood that stand out? DA: Probably none that I really recall. I can think of two or three, but nothing significant. My mother used to tell a story that she liked to repeat frequently. When we were still living in Brigham City, at the end of the Second World War, there were a lot of Native Americans that lived in Brigham City. She talks about one occasion when I was just a toddler, I was playing outside and a family of Indians went down the street in single file from the father to the mother, then all the kids down to the smallest. My mother said that I watched them walk by and just got in line to follow them right down the street. There were all of these brown- 5 skinned Indians and a little white boy in a diaper going down the street. She said it was really a funny sight to see. ROH: Where did you go to school? DA: From Brigham City, we moved a lot. We moved to Salt Lake and ultimately moved to Denver where I started my public education. My father accepted employment in Brooklyn, New York, but my mother said, "I'm not going." We remained in Denver while Harvey started the veterinary division of Pfizer Laboratories in New York. He was one of the senior management at Pfizer and was one of the candidates for the presidency of Pfizer when he left the company. While at Pfizer, he would commute between Brooklyn and Denver while we stayed in Denver. I recall one of the things I did one summer in Denver. I attended a Methodist Bible School that summer which was kind of interesting. I graduated from the Methodist Bible School and don't recall too much about the classes other than that they gave me a certificate and a pencil, so that was important. I started grade school near our home. I may have used a school bus, but I don't recall it. As time went on in grade school I did use a bus and I'll come back to that in a minute. My mother talks about one time she was supposed to pick me up after school and she was late getting there. All of the teachers and students left and she still wasn't there. She said I hid in the bushes so people couldn't find me. I waited for her for a while and finally sat out on the curb until she came to 6 pick me up. She said my comment was, "I knew you'd come and get me." This school was from kindergarten to third grade. In the second grade, I had a girlfriend. For years I've struggled to remember her name and haven't struggled hard enough because I can't remember it. Nevertheless, she was really an important girlfriend. I wanted her to sit by me on the bus. I was terribly shy, but I bribed her by giving her the little prizes out of the cracker jacks boxes. I had a big collection so I'd give her a prize every day if she'd sit by me on the bus. Apparently, she liked me as well because the kids started teasing her about it and dared her to give me a kiss. One day, she leaned over and gave me a kiss on the cheek and I was mortified. ROH: You weren't counting on that. DA: No, I wasn't, but it was wonderful. I brought her home from school one day to meet my parents and I had her wait in the foyer so I could go tell my parents. They told me I had to sit down and eat right then. So, I went back to the foyer and told her she had to go home and that's the last memory I have of her. Anyway, we started grade school with kindergarten. I remember having to take naps in kindergarten. It was an all-day kindergarten not a half day, but we had to take a nap. I remember very little from first and second grade except that a third grader was misbehaving and his teacher sent him back to the second grade as punishment. It was just to shame him. I can remember my second grade teacher having him sit next to me and we were doing an art project. I looked at what he was coloring or drawing and how much better it was than what 7 I could create because he was older and it really impressed me. I remember some of the early books, Dick and Jane books that we had to learn to read from and how stupid they were. In the winter, my mother would worry about me getting cold, so she insisted that I wear long-legged underwear. I hated them and did not want to wear them, but I did because she insisted. She even bought a pair for my father just to show me, "See, even real men wear long underwear." We had gymnastics tumbling. On one occasion, we were going to perform in front of an audience and my mother was supposed to bring me some regular short underwear because we had to wear short shorts and t-shirts for this tumbling. She didn't show up in time and I had to roll that long underwear up and try and hide it underneath my shorts. I wasn't very successful and I was mortified. I don't remember anything about the tumbling. I just remember that terrible long-legged underwear. ROH: Did you enjoy school? Was it always something that you liked? DA: I always liked school. I enjoyed school from grade school throughout my university career. In fact, if I had the time and the patience, I'd go back to school right now. I don't really have the time and I don't really have the patience to listen to some professor's pontificate on things that I know as much or more about. I just wouldn't put up with it. ROH: Tell me where you fall in line of your siblings. Are you the oldest? DA: I am the oldest. I have a sister who is three years younger, another six years younger and another that is 13 years younger than I. 8 ROH: Are they all still living? DA: Yes. They're all still living. ROH: You went through third grade in Denver. Did you stay in Denver that entire time or did you move back and forth from Kindergarten to third grade? DA: We moved some. My parents were struggling financially. I just learned that probably in the last year as I've been trying to write a little history of my parents. They struggled and for some of the time that we were living in Denver, my mother took my sister and me to Idaho. She dropped us off at her parents' home in Idaho and left her parents to raise us while she taught school in another community. She had a license to teach school in Idaho and Utah, but not in Colorado. My father was basically living in Brooklyn at the time, so it didn't matter if she was in Idaho or Colorado because he wasn't coming home. There were no jets, it was all prop planes and it was expensive. He would come home about once every couple of months and wouldn't stay more than a day or two or three and he'd be gone again. He was building a veterinary drug company for Pfizer in New York. I also remember one time being with my grandparents in Kimberly, Idaho and my mother was asked to be a substitute teacher. There was a teacher that wasn't able to fulfill the teaching contract and my mother agreed to teach grade school for a month or so until they could find another teacher. Idaho schools started prior to the Colorado schools, so she put me in school along with my cousin while she taught our class. My cousin would call her Aunt Allez until 9 he was teased into calling her Mrs. Ashmead. I called her Mom until I was teased into calling her Mrs. Ashmead. For about a month she was my grade school teacher and then we went back to Colorado. In about 1953, the financial difficulties that my parents were facing were becoming a crisis. They needed more money. My mother found employment in Utah working for the state. She had completed most of her requirements for her master's degree in speech pathology in Denver, so she told my father she was going to move back to Utah. She couldn't work in Colorado, but she could in Utah. My father decided that it was time for him to resign from Pfizer, even though they offered him the presidency. He quit and came back to Utah with my mother. ROH: Do you know why he quit? DA: Because my mother was moving. I suspect that his employment was putting a strain on their marriage and it was probably heading for divorce if he didn't quit. That's purely speculation. I never heard the "D" word at all. I never saw any indication that my parents wanted to separate. They were both highly motivated individuals trying to rise to the top of their careers, but when it came to the family and the marriage they pulled back together and my father decided to sacrifice his career to go with my mother back to Utah. He didn't quit immediately and move back to Utah. He moved to Utah and subsequently resigned from Pfizer two years later in 1955. 10 My mother went to work for the state of Utah in the education department as a speech pathologist. She went to the University of Utah to finish her degree and was awarded her master's degree at the University of Utah. She worked for the state of Utah for about a year and was then offered a position in Davis County to start a speech and hearing program. She accepted that and we moved to Kaysville because it was the center of Davis County so she could move in either direction. She started the speech and hearing program for the county initially on her own, but it grew into two employees that worked for her. Plus, she was supervising 12 students from the university who were also working for her. The speech and hearing program in Davis County became the model for the rest of the state. It then became the model for other countries. I can recall that she was invited to the Soviet Union to train them on how to set up a speech and hearing program for their school system. She went elsewhere around the United States on behalf of the state of Utah to teach others how to do this. She became quite well-known in this area and by the time she got her doctorate, she was one of six people in the world qualified to do what she did and the only woman. I am proud of her. She graduated the same year with her doctorate that I got my bachelor's from Weber. I've got pictures of her in her doctoral robes and me in my Weber State robes. ROH: Do you recall any conversations about why you weren't all just moved up to New York? 11 DA: My mother did not want to go any further East. During the First World War, my father worked on a research project to stabilize penicillin so it could be used to treat the wounded soldiers. He was successful in developing a stabilized form of penicillin. It became widespread in its usage around the world because of the work he did. While he was at Bushnell General Hospital, he started to work on an amino acid therapy for soldiers that were burned. Burn patients were losing amino acids, and the doctors said, "We have to give them amino acids." However, the amino acids were so vile that most soldiers that tried to drink the concoction would vomit it back before they could even get it swallowed. Some started even before then as they got it close to their nose. My father started working on a palatable form of amino acids. It was, for the most part, developed before the end of the war, but not in its final stage. The drug company, Mead- Johnson, hired my father at the end of the war to go back to Evansville, Indiana to finish the project. My father went back there and joined their research and development group and finished the project. In fact, if you look at the drink "Ensure" and the infant formulas, all of them have their genesis in the work that he did. I've had scientists tell me that they actually saw the notebooks that my father had written at Mead-Johnson and saw what he developed. During that time, I was an infant and I was left with my grandparents while my mother went with my father back to Indiana. When he completed that research, Mead- Johnson offered him full-time employment, but neither of parents particularly liked living in Indiana. They went on to New York, then to Florida and elsewhere 12 for several weeks looking around and neither of them were in love with what they saw. I suspect that my mother in reflecting on those initial trips said, "I don't want to go any further East than Denver. I was born and bred in the West, I'm going to stay in the West and I don't want my kids growing up in the East." They had purchased a home in Denver. I suspect they were having trouble making house payments, but it was still their home. I know that my mother did not have a car which made it difficult with two babies and having to take street cars to get wherever she wanted to go including a grocery store. ROH: It was probably rough. Let's continue with your education. DA: Our first home when we moved from Denver to Salt Lake was near a school where I went to the fourth grade. The principal was Mr. Walker, who plays a role a little bit later in my life, so I'll come back to him in just a minute. In the fourth grade, we lived near the school. I had a girlfriend. I had lots of girlfriends. ROH: You did. DA: I'm not a Latin lover but I had lots of girlfriends. I had a girlfriend named Sandra West. My father loved to tease and of course at that age these girlfriends are secret girlfriends. Somehow, he found out that my girlfriend's name was Sandra West. I can remember him teasing me about that with my cousins. They were trying to discover what my girlfriend's name was and I wasn't about to tell them because it was secret. My father said, "Well, it isn't north, it isn't south, and it isn't east…" Then he stopped. I was mortified that he had told them. ROH: Now I know where you get your sense of humor. 13 DA: Her parents were friends with my folks, and I don't remember where, but it was earlier than just being in the neighborhood. Anyway, she was my girlfriend in the fifth grade. Then, we moved and Mr. Walker had a home that was about two or three miles from the school. The house that we were living in near the school was on a one year lease and the owners came back and they wanted their house, so Mr. Walker said, "Well, I have a rental house next to my house, you can come and live in it." My mother said, "Yeah, but I don't want to put my kids in a different school again." He said, "That's not a problem, they can stay in the same school and I'll take them to and from school." My parents agreed and we moved to a house on the Mill Creek east of Sugar House which had a big impact on me. I'll tell you about that in a moment. Anyway, this thing with Mr. Walker didn't work out. He left for school too early in the morning for us, so my parents had to take us to school. My sister and I, who were both in school there, didn't like waiting until 4:30 or later for him to get around to going home. We began walking the three or four miles to home. He never transported us really. ROH: That's a long walk. DA: It was, but we had to do it. There was no other option because my mother was working full-time and my father was still traveling. So, it was either go with Mr. Walker or walk home. This house was on the Mill Creek and it was a wonderful experience for me. All of my free time was spent exploring the woods along the creek and getting involved with the creek. When I think about it now, it was probably dangerous, but I didn't think about that. I was in the water and I did all sorts of things. I collected bugs and animals on the Mill Creek. I just thoroughly 14 loved it so much that I vowed that when I grew up I was going to have a home on the creek. After my wife and I were married, I searched for years for a creek and finally found one. We did build a home on the creek. It was because of that one year experience on the Mill Creek. ROH: Is it in Salt Lake? DA: No, it's in Fruit Heights. We built it on Baer Creek. When my wife and I found the creek, I followed it and found some land that I liked and tried to buy it. They wouldn't sell it to me. I found some additional land on the creek that I really liked and went to Davis County to find out who owned it. I found the name of the owner and went to him and said, "I'd liked to buy some property." This was all undeveloped property. He said, "Well, if I were to sell that land I'd have to have $12,000 an acre." I said, "Well, great. I want 3 acres." He said, "But I don't want to sell it." I said, "But I want it." So, for an entire year every week I either went and saw him or telephoned him to see if he would change his mind. Finally, after a year I had worn him down to the point he said, "Just take it." So, I bought the three acres. It was never a question of how much I was going to pay. It was just trying to get the land. We bought the land and ultimately built our house there where we still live. That was in 1976. ROH: Have you ever been back to the original Mill Creek house? DA: No. In fact, I question whether or not I could even find it. I probably could if I looked up an address, but we always called it the chicken coup because it looked like a chicken coup. A flat roofed chicken coup that had just been renovated into 15 a house. It was in a cul-de-sac with two other houses. Mr. Walker's house was the most elaborate. Then there was a second house that was next to his and it had solar panels on the roof. It was a solar energy house, which really would have been Avant Garde. I can remember the solar panels. I don't remember the people or what the husband did. Across from Mr. Walker's house in the cul-de-sac was the chicken coup where we lived. ROH: Were your sisters all born at this point? DA: No. I was born in Brigham City and my next sister was born in Salt Lake in 1947. My father was living in Denver trying to set up a home for my mother and me when my sister was born. My mother went into labor, and she didn't have a telephone so she went to the neighbor and used the neighbor's phone to call a taxi to come and get her. The taxi dropped her off in front of the hospital, took the money and said, "Goodbye." My mother went in with her big suitcase. She talked about only having one suitcase, the one she used when she went off to college to Utah State University. It was a big suitcase, not an overnight bag, but she lugged the big suitcase in and had the baby. She called my father and he got in the car in Denver and drove back to Salt Lake. My sister was born by then. He saw her for a couple of days and got back in his car and went back to Denver. My mother was in the hospital taking care of herself because he couldn't leave work. In Denver, my second sister was born in 1950. My father was at home and my mother was taking courses at the University of Denver. One of them was an arts and crafts course. I don't know why she was doing that, but the instructor 16 told her that regardless of the fact that she was pregnant, if she missed classes, she would be dropped from the program. When she went into labor, she had my father go to the class to take her place. The instructor asked my father what he wanted to do while he was there and he said, "Well, I'd like to carve a horse out of wood." The instructor said, "There's no way you can do that. You'd have to be trained for years and years to balance the horse. You just can't do it." So, my father went home and took out his pocket knife and carved a Tennessee Walker perfectly balanced on two feet with all the right muscles and everything. He took it back the next week and said, "Here." He'd never done anything like that before and it was a wonderful thing. That started his woodcarving hobby. He was extremely good at it. All of the pieces were professional pieces. On one occasion, I had two coloring books, a Roy Rogers coloring book and Gene Autry coloring book, each cowboy was featured on his horse on the cover of these coloring books and each horse was rearing. My father looked at the pictures and carved the two horses out of wood. Each horse was about 12 inches tall and rearing. He mounted them on a wooden base so it appeared that the two horses were fighting. It was just beautiful. He carved horse heads. Each head was about 8 inches tall. They were so realistic that they even had the blood vessels in the horses head. He knew animals intimately and he carved them accordingly. He was very, very good at it. Speaking of carving, it reminds me of another thing with my father and mother. I had cowboy heroes when I was a kid and one of them was Hopalong Cassidy. I just loved him. He was great. I also liked Roy Rogers. I wanted to 17 change my name to Roy once upon a time. Hopalong Cassidy was one of my heroes. I not only watched him in the movies, but I would buy the comic books whenever I could get my hands on one. It was rare that I got a comic book because my parents didn't have much money. One of the comic books that I did purchase showed Hopalong Cassidy being manipulated by the bad guys. The way they portrayed that manipulation was by attaching strings to his feet and hands to make him into a puppet. That was the picture on the cover of the comic book. So, I told Santa Claus I wanted a Hopalong Cassidy puppet. I must have been six or seven at the time because I still believed in Santa Claus. Obviously, a Hopalong Cassidy puppet did not exist, even though my mother searched high and low in the stores to find one. They didn't exist. So, my father took wood and carved this Hopalong Cassidy puppet. He carved the hand with the arm up to the elbow and he attached that to the upper part of the arm wrapping it with cloth so that there was a joint that allowed the arm to move. Then, he attached the arm to the shoulder with a cloth so it could also move. My mother sewed the clothes for the puppet. Hopalong Cassidy dressed in a black outfit, so she freehand sewed all of the clothes to dress the puppet in. Where they found them I don't know, but they also found little cowboy boots that they put on him, as well as a hat and pistols. I don't know where they found the pistols, but my father had to make the holsters for the pistols out of leather. They attached strings to it and I got a Hopalong Cassidy puppet for Christmas from Santa Claus. It was a prized possession. My mother says I put on a Hopalong Cassidy puppet show for my school class on one occasion. I don't recall that, but 18 she talked about it. At some point, the puppet lost its strings, but I still have the puppet. That is a prized possession that my parents made for me. ROH: What it must have been like to see that on Christmas morning. DA: I can't remember seeing it Christmas morning, but that puppet has been part of my life as far back as I can remember. My father was extremely talented at carving wood and did so until his mid to late 70's. At that age he developed an allergy to the sawdust in the wood, so he couldn't carve anymore. The last thing he carved was a covered wagon with eight horses pulling it, which I have in my house. It's a beautiful thing. After that, he decided to make bronzes. I have a good friend who is a professional artist who has made millions of dollars with his artwork. One day, I was going to have lunch with him and my dad asked me to ask him how to make a bronze sculpture. I did and my friend said, "Well, you make a skeleton out of wire or whatever and then you put the clay on it and once you put the clay on it you put it in the oven and bake it. When that is done, you take it to the foundry and it is cast by the foundry." That's as much as I told my father. He said, "Okay." He sat at the kitchen table with a pair of pliers, coat hangers, and a torch and he welded pieces of wire together to make a skeleton. Then, he used clay and made his figurines. He then put them in the oven and baked them before taking them to the foundry. He's done beautiful sculptures. His first sculpture is of two fighting elk. You may or may not have noticed in the foyer at Albion, there's an eagle perched on a limb. That's another one he made. This is all amateur, but they look 19 like professional pieces. He also created one of a cowboy that has roped a buffalo which resulted in the cowboy, horse, and the buffalo all being in trouble because they are all tangled together in the rope. Another one that I thoroughly enjoy is a pond with swans on the pond. It is a beautiful piece. ROH: How old was he when he started doing bronzes? DA: He was about 78. He died when he was 82. He would produce them and give them away. He could have made a living as an artist if he wanted to, but he didn't. He just did it as a hobby. ROH: Today is Monday, October 29, 2012, we are in the offices of Albion with DeWayne Ashmead and Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State. When we were talking last week, you mentioned this really nice picturesque setting along the creek. DA: The Mill Creek. ROH: I wanted to pick up from where we left off there. DA: We moved to Kaysville to a rented home in 1955. I started the sixth grade at Kaysville Elementary School. It was interesting. I have thought about that several times and I don't know why one thing stands out in my mind. I had no friends until I went to school, so I was in the process of trying to make friends. We had our first recess and there were two boys in the class who were leaders. They were the top kids. I was a little skinny new kid on the block and when we went out for recess the boys all decided they wanted to play football. I had never played 20 football in my life. I didn't know how to play it or anything else, but one of these kids picked me to be on his team and that really made me feel good. He asked me what position I played and I said, "I don't know." He put me on the line and I promptly got knocked on my fanny the first time. I always respected that kid because he picked me and stood up for me at a time that I needed someone to do that. He didn't become a close friend, but throughout my junior high and high school days he was a kid that I looked up to. The sixth grade probably was a turning point in my life. My teacher was a man by the name of Elmer Wilcox, and he really liked science. He would take us on field trips. We went out to the Salt Lake and dug up crystals. He liked rocks so we collected rocks. He had a three stage microscope of his own that he brought to school to show us the invisible world. I became fascinated with that and for whatever reason, he took a liking to me and he would give me this microscope to take home on weekends. I was absolutely thrilled. I lugged this microscope in its wooden box home to look at things under the microscope. I studied all kinds of different things like water from the swamp or hair. I was just absolutely fascinated with it. Because of my interest, at Christmas my mother went to the University of Utah and purchased a three stage microscope from their surplus equipment. It was an old microscope, but it was still just like his as far as effectiveness was concerned. It was a professional microscope, not a toy. As the school year went on I became more and more interested in all of the aspects of science. I hadn't picked a single discipline. He fostered that and continued to encourage me in so many ways that he has always stood out in my 21 mind as one of the people who truly influenced me. When I entered the seventh grade, I went to Central Davis Junior high School in Layton. The science teacher at Central Davis at that point in time considered teaching science as just a job. He didn't really do much to encourage me or to help me with my scientific interests, but then my father started working with me. My father was deeply involved in the sciences and the fact that I was expressing interest in the same thing encouraged him to get involved with me. I wanted to enter a science fair in Utah and I decided that I would like to build a robot that was somewhat mobile that would speak through a record player by remote control. My father helped me build it and I won first place in the state. ROH: That sounds really ambitious for that age, how did you come up with that idea? DA: Actually, I read an article in Boy's Life scout magazine about a robot. It just intrigued me and I thought, "I want to do one like that." So, we did. In the eighth grade, I got more sophisticated and built a cloud chamber so I could see radiation particles from radium as they would go through an artificially created cloud. I won first place. I can't remember what I did in the ninth or tenth grade, but I won first place there. In the eleventh grade, I was working full-time at Albion while going to school full–time. I'll come back to that later. My father and I were collaborating on a drug to dissolve kidney stones and I had done a considerable amount of research on my own dissolving kidney stones in sheep. I presented my research on that and I won first place in the state and was subsequently sent to the national science fair with that research. Unfortunately, we drove to Seattle 22 where it was held and I had left part of my project at home and forgot it. The result was that I didn't do very well at nationals, but that's the way it goes. ROH: Did you participate in science fairs all the way through high school? DA: I did. I became known as, I guess in today's vernacular, a nerd. I was selected as the Sterling Scholar for science my senior year of high school in 1961-1962. I had a reputation for being quite intelligent and deeply involved in the sciences. Between Elmer Wilcox and my father, the two of them really fostered that love of science which continues to this day. ROH: Did you have any other friends that you would work on these projects together with? DA: I had friends, but none of these friends was as involved in the sciences as I. I didn't make friends easily. I was very shy and basically a loner. A lot of my research projects were too complex for kids to understand. They didn't see the value of them, so they would ignore me. ROH: Was that the end of your football career then? DA: In sixth grade? Absolutely. To this day, I really don't care for football. I shouldn't say that. I should say that I enjoy watching the game, but I am not passionate about it. ROH: It's really quite something to be that involved in science all through and it's no surprise then that you continued on into your career. You won lots of awards in high school and when you graduated as a senior, what did you do? 23 DA: I chased my girlfriend. ROH: You had a lot of girlfriends. DA: Well, I only had one that was important. That's the one I married. ROH: When did you meet Jill? DA: I met her as a junior in high school. We met in a history class because the teacher assigned us seats in history according to alphabetical order. I was the last "A" and she was the first "B" so she sat right behind me in history. She was a cute little girl, so I asked her for a date and she turned me down. I asked her for a second date and she turned me down. When I asked her a third time I figured, if she turns me down the third time I'll never ask her again. ROH: What were the dates? DA: I don't remember. I had a reputation of being a nonconformist in high school too. The fact that I'm science on the one side is one thing, but I went clear over on the other side because I was trying to fit in. I really didn't fit in anywhere in high school. She basically turned me down because of my reputation. The third time, she accepted. ROH: What reputation are we talking about? DA: I had the coolest car in school and I raced. I raced at the drag strips and I would race on the streets. You didn't ask me about that. ROH: Well, tell me about what you did for fun? 24 DA: I played with my car and still play with my cars. Finishing up with Jill though, the third time I asked her for a date she accepted and before we were out of our junior year in high school we wanted to get married. After that, we just continued to date through high school. I had several scholarships to various universities and she was going to go to Weber College, so I followed her to Weber rather than taking these other scholarships. Looking back, it was a good thing. ROH: So back to the car story. When did you get your license or were you driving before you got your license? DA: Oh yes. I started driving at about 13 or 14. I got my first car about a year before I got my license. I had a 1950 Mercury. I customized it, lowered it and put loud pipes on it. I got all sorts of tickets and generally not the same one twice. I raced that car. ROH: How did you buy your first car? DA: Actually, it was given to me. I got it from my parents. My parents bought this 1950 Mercury and had taken good care of it. It was really a good car and I probably destroyed it. I just thoroughly loved the car. I can remember one time, I wanted to leave high school early and the only way out at that time was through gates on the parking lot. They were locked during school hours so you couldn't leave school. On one of the exits there was a space between the pole that held the gate and another pole that was just wide enough to let the car slip through with about an inch or two on each side. My friend and I decided to leave school early one day by slipping through this space. That gate was between two 25 buildings. My car was so loud with the noise of the exhaust reverberating back and forth between these two buildings as we were trying to get out that it attracted everyone's attention. It brought every kid in the high school to the windows to watch us leave school. Shortly thereafter, they welded stakes perpendicular to the gate pole so I couldn't get out. I really liked the car. I liked cars because it gave me the freedom that I didn't have before. I went everywhere in that car. It was my whole life. I put over $1,000 into customizing the body, which in 1962 terms was a huge sum of money. I did a lot of the work myself and made a few mistakes, but I still enjoyed it. When I was a senior in high school in 1962, I decided I wanted a new car, so I went to the Oldsmobile dealer in Ogden and ordered a new car. I bought a 1962 Oldsmobile Cutlass in the last part of my senior year in high school. Jill and I dated in that car. Later, I sold it, but a few years ago when a car like it came up for sale I went and bought it just to try to recapture our youth. It didn't work, but Jill and I still enjoy putting the top down in that convertible and just driving. We still do it. Destroying the ozone layer is just a lot of fun because that's what we did when we were kids. We would drive up and down Washington Blvd and I would drag race anyone that wanted to drag race. I'd race on the streets and I would accelerate to about 80 miles an hour on Washington Blvd. ROH: Where on Washington Blvd.? DA: From stoplight to stoplight. Very rarely did I ever lose a race. I was a fast driver and had a reputation for always having a very fast car. 26 ROH: So that's why she was turning you down? DA: Yes. ROH: Are you still racing up and down Washington? Have I heard anything about you in the blotter? DA: No you have not. I haven't had a ticket for probably 25 years. ROH: Where do you ride now when you go for drives? DA: Generally on the back roads. The cars that I drive are very expensive and many of them are one of a kind, so people have a tendency to drive into me as they are looking at the car. So, I just avoid major highways and stay on the back roads where people don't see me. I drive for the sheer pleasure of driving and the experience of driving. With some of the cars you can put the top down and as you drive along you can smell the smells and hear the sounds and we just enjoy it. ROH: You loved science, cars and you obviously loved girls, one in particular. DA: That's right, one in particular. ROH: Jill is her nickname, so what was her maiden name? DA: Her real name is Eugele, which she hates and I love. I think it's a very pretty name. She was named for her uncle Eugene who was in the Second World War and not expected to come home. She was named Eugele Baird and nicknamed, Jill, which she prefers. 27 ROH: When did you and Jill get married? DA: That was in 1966. Probably didn't think I would remember that did you? ROH: I'm surprised you waited that long. DA: Well, you have to understand the dynamics. I followed her to Weber and we decided that we couldn't afford to get married and we should wait until both of us graduated from college. Jill was very religious, but I was not. She played better poker than I did. That's the way I describe it. She told me that she would not marry me unless we were married in the L.D.S. temple. I saw absolutely no reason to do that, but I would not be hypocritical about it and just go to the temple just to make her happy. We're all hypocrites, but for the most part I detest hypocrites. I started to study the Mormon Church to show her where she was wrong and why we didn't need to be married in the temple, and ultimately became converted myself. After I did that I went to her and said, "I think I need to go on an L.D.S. mission." She said, "Okay. You go and I'll wait." As luck would have it, I was called to go to France. The kids today go for 2 years and for part of that two year period they go into a very intensive training session where they learn the language. Back then, none of that training existed. If you went to a foreign country you went for two and a half years and the church figured it took you six months to learn the language and then you became effective. So, I went to France for two and a half years. ROH: What part of France? 28 DA: It was called the French Mission. I served in Paris, Bordeaux, Rennes, and Pau. Basically, the Western and Central part of France. ROH: That's pretty big territory. DA: Back then, there were only two missions in France. There was the French Mission and the French-East Mission. The French-East Mission covered Eastern France and the French speaking part of Switzerland. While I was there, they made the Franco-Belge Mission which was all of Belgium and the Northern part of France. Incidentally, that is where my youngest son went on his mission. I went to France for the two and half years and came home. I was determined to marry her as she was to marry me. Her parents didn't like the idea. They did everything they possibly could to persuade her to start dating boys while I was gone on my mission. She refused, and that created a lot of problems for her. She wrote me every day and would send the letter to me once a week. I would send her a letter every week. I would go without meals in order to save enough money so that by the time the two and a half years were over I had enough money to go to Belgium and buy a diamond ring for her. I designed it and purchased it. I came home in March of 1966. We were married in June and lived happily ever after. ROH: Where were you married? DA: We were married in the Salt Lake Temple, just like she said. It scared me to death. ROH: Did it? 29 DA: I was terrified. I tried to talk her out of it all the way to the temple. She wasn't about to listen to me. It was an off-handed way of talking her out of it, you know, "I'm too cool. I'm not going to back out," but I sure tried to talk her into backing out. I was terrified. I was also in a lot of pain. I had broken my foot the day before. ROH: How did you do that? DA: A plate glass mirror fell on it right across my foot and broke it. I refused to cast it because it would spoil her wedding pictures. So, I was in a lot of pain. ROH: Did you cast it after your wedding? DA: No. We left on our honeymoon and she did all the driving and I did all the moaning. ROH: Where did you honeymoon? DA: We went down to Bryce Canyon and I kind of hopped over the edge of the canyon and looked at it and said, "Okay, let's go." I was in too much pain, so we came home after a honeymoon for 3 days and I went back to work. ROH: All this time you were working for Albion, correct? DA: Yes. My father started Albion in 1956. He had previously been working for Pfizer and was in the line for the presidency of Pfizer. He was in senior management of Pfizer when he quit and came back to Utah where he started Albion. He had $250 and that's what he used to start Albion with. He had a concept that no one else had ever thought of and that was to sell veterinary pharmaceuticals to 30 farmers and ranchers. In 1956, if you had a sick animal, you would go to veterinarian and say, "Come look at my animal." He would look at it and you'd tell him what was wrong and then he'd sell you the drug at twice what he paid for it. What my father wanted to do while he was at Pfizer was to start selling these pharmaceuticals directly to the farmers and ranchers instead of going through the veterinarians. Pfizer refused to do that, so my father struck out on his own to show that it could be done. Well, the area that he envisioned was the Intermountain area in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Arizona, and Nevada. He had to travel throughout that area calling on the farmers and ranchers because no one knew that such an outlet for veterinary drugs existed. He had a retail store between 24th and 25th Street on Grant Avenue in Ogden. It was ideally located because the drugs that he sold throughout the Intermountain area could be packaged at the store and then taken to the post office which was on the corner of 24th and Grant or to the bus depot which was on the corner of 25th and Grant. So the store was half a block either way. Because he was out selling, someone else had to package and ship these drugs. At the ripe old age of 12, I went to work. I took a commuter bus, which was the Lakeshore Bus Line that went between Salt lake and Ogden. I'd pick it up in Kaysville, ride the bus to Ogden to open up the store after school. I would take the orders my father had written, package them and take the packages to the post office or the bus. I'd close the store at about 7 or 8 at night, 31 get on the bus, go home, do my homework, and go to bed. From that point forward, I just worked there. When I was on my L.D.S. mission, my father wanted me to come back and join him full time at Albion when I completed my mission. I said, "No, I don't want to." We had a lot of negotiations by correspondence and ultimately I said, "Okay. I will come back, but I won't work for you. I will work with you, but I won't work for you. Furthermore, if I come back, I would expect you to sell me part of the company at fair market price because I would never want anyone to say you gave it to me. So, I'll buy it and if you'll meet those two conditions, I'll come back." He said, "Fine." So, I did and by the time I got home he had named me the Vice President of Albion which really sounded cool until you saw all the work I had to do. Shortly after returning, I married Jill and went back to school at Weber while still working full time. Prior to my mission I had majored in chemistry at Weber College. While I was on my mission, I realized that if I were a chemist I would have to work for someone else. But, if I were a businessman, I could hire all the chemists I wanted. So, I changed my major when I came back to Weber and majored in business. I concurrently worked full-time at Albion and traveled extensively which made it very difficult to go to school. My father and I divided the responsibilities. He took production and R & D and I took marketing and administration. Part of my job was taking Albion from a small regional company to a national and then international company, which I did while I was still going to school at Weber. 32 ROH: How long did it take you to go national and then international? DA: Relatively quickly, probably a year or two. I was traveling a lot. I remember one convention that I went to that happened to be in Colorado that still stands out in my mind. I flew into Denver and arrived in the early evening concurrently with a blizzard that hit Denver. I had to go up to Ft. Collins, Colorado, so I rented a car. That was a terrifying ride on the freeway because the road was all snowed in. I arrived there late at night. The next morning I got up and went to work. I spent all day on the convention floor assisting one of my customers. That night, the customer wanted to go out to dinner and invited me to go with the employees. I told them I couldn't go to dinner and went back to my hotel room to study for a test that I had to take the next day when I got back to Utah. It was hard, but it was okay. Jill was working at Red Cross, but then she had the audacity to get pregnant on our honeymoon and nine months later our son came. She was awfully sick during her pregnancy so she quit and the responsibility of taking care of my wife and my soon-to-be baby was mine in addition to going to school. After he was born, she would come over to the college at noon and bring me a sandwich that I would eat as we walked back to the apartment where I'd get in the car and head off to work. I'd work until 8 or 9 at night and come home. I was still an undergrad. So, I did that and graduated from Weber. ROH: What year did you graduate from Weber? 33 DA: I think it was 1969. I went on and got a doctorate from Pacific Institute that was chartered by the state of California to give doctorates for research. It was not an academic degree, it was a research degree. I got that and later I went back and got an academic Ph.D in nutrition from Donsbach University in California. They wanted me to attend classes there and I just didn't have the time. I negotiated a deal with them that as long as I could pass the tests, I wouldn't have to go to class. Although everything was done by mail back then, the experience was much like doing coursework online today. I suppose in some ways I was a pioneer in doing online education. I graduated with a 4.0 from Donsbach and just continued on. ROH: You never got a master's? DA: I never got a master's. I have often wanted an M.B.A., but I'm too old and I don't have the patience. I don't need it, but I would like one. The biggest thing is that I don't have the patience. I can remember even in my undergrad taking a class in advertising and the professor wanted us to advertise an imaginary product. At the time, I had started a small advertising agency while working at Albion. I don't sleep much. Anyway, I had developed a campaign for a product. I developed the whole campaign, so it was not cheating. I had done absolutely everything. I didn't have the time to do busy work on an imaginary product, so, I took what I had done and presented it to the class. It violated some of the principles he taught. He got his master's degree at the University of Utah and drove 40 miles to Weber where he spent the rest of his life. He never had any practical experience in advertising. He started criticizing me in front of the class and I remember that I 34 lost my temper. I told him that he didn't know his fanny from a hole in the ground and I laid out what this advertising campaign had done for the company. Well, he was embarrassed and angry and he gave me a "C". I deserved an "A" but he gave me a "C". He never forgot or forgave me. He had a reputation for pulling kids out of the line as they were graduating and would say, "You can't graduate." I don't know whether that was true or not, but I believed it. When I was graduating I took my cap and partially covered my face before turning my head so he couldn't see me as I marched by. I was afraid he'd pull me out of line. He also became my major professor and made me jump through hoops to graduate. It was just a miserable time. The only consolation was that after I graduated, Weber offered me a job to replace him when he died. I didn't take it, but they did offer it to me. In my senior year, I joined a business fraternity because I was led to believe that it was where you would make contacts and that would be good for business. It isn't, but I was led to believe that. On one occasion they had arranged for us to go to a bank to tour the building and interview the vice president. We went down to what was then Commercial Security Bank on 25th and Washington in Ogden. I can still remember talking to the vice president. One of the kids had the audacity to ask, "How much do you earn as a vice president of the bank?" He puffed up and said, "I earn 450 dollars a month." I said, "Well, I earn more than that as a student, why would I want to be a banker." He looked at me and said, "Well, we get to play a lot of golf." I've never learned how to play golf, so I missed out on that opportunity. 35 One last thing on Donsbach University I ought to mention. About 1980, when four of my kids were in school, they were complaining about school work and saying that I didn't understand what it was like to go to school now because I went back in the olden days. More than anything else, that is what pushed me to attend Donsbach. I wanted to prove a point to them. I enrolled and I graduated one year later with a 4.0. I would come home from work and take care of my fatherly duties until about 9:00 p.m. I would study from 9:00 p.m. to usually 1:00 a.m. I would get up at 6:00 a.m. and would study again until it was time to go to work, work all day and repeat that whole thing. As I said, I graduated with a 4.0, wrote my thesis and got that approved and everything within that one year. The only time I went to California as it related to Donsbach was to get my diploma when I marched through at commencement. My kids came with Jill and me to commencement and after I got my degree, I turned to my kids and said, "Don't you ever tell me that I don't know what it's like." After that there was never ever a discussion about going to school or anything else and all of my kids have graduate degrees. ROH: Tell me about your kids. How many children do you have? DA: Five or six depending on how you count it. That always bothers a lot of people when I say that. I count it as six, but I have five kids. The sixth kid—a Navajo woman gave me her daughter and said, "She's yours, you raise her." I raised her as my own. I never formally adopted her, but I raised her, educated her and sent her to college. She still calls Jill and me "Mom" and "Dad" and her kids call us 36 "Grandma" and "Grandpa." As far as I'm concerned, she is a daughter. My blood kids all accept her as a sister. She's just one of us. ROH: What is her name? DA: Her name is Laurice. My first child was Stephen, who came about nine months after we were married. My next child was Jilane. She got her name while I was still on my mission. Jill and some of her girlfriends were composing names for their future children at one of her parties and she composed a combination of Jill and DeWayne. She wrote me and told me that her first daughter was going to be named Jilane. Next was Brett. Then came Angelique Racquelle—very French. My last was Heidi. ROH: Are any of them working in the business? DA: Three of them are. All of them have worked here. By the time my kids turned 12 or 14 at the latest, they had to go to work. They had to pick and choose what school activities they were going to participate in because they had to work. By the time they were sixteen they had to buy all of their own clothes. At 14, they would be preparing the meals and helping work around the house. Besides working, they had to work around the house and do yard work, but they didn't get paid for it. For better or for worse, none of my kids ever got into trouble. They were too busy working and doing other things. They never got into drugs or anything. All of them are workaholics and every one of them has risen to the top of his or her profession. All of them have had the opportunity to work at Albion and three of them elected to stay. Stephen joined Albion full-time while he was 37 married and a student. Angelique joined Albion after she got her master's degree and became a CPA. She was recruited extensively by most of the national CPA firms in Utah. She was an outstanding student. She chose to come to Albion although I did not have anything to do with it. Albion had to compete with the CPA firms to get her. Brett got his MBA and joined Albion after that. Jilane is the head of the English department at a junior high school and also teaches. Heidi teaches creative writing at a high school as well as having started her own business. ROH: You have quite a large family now. Did they get to earn allowances when they were younger? DA: No. Working around the house is what they owed me for giving them life. After I got married, I hit the road and was gone probably 60 percent of the time or more. On one occasion, I wanted to put in a spur on my sprinkling system and Stephen had helped me repair our sprinkling system in the past. He was about 13 or 14 at the time. I told him, "I want you to run a spur off there. I'll be gone on a trip so you just do it." He did and it worked very well. I still use it today. Another occasion, I told him to run a spur off in another area which had to go underneath the sidewalk. I didn't tell him how to get underneath the sidewalk, which was my mistake. So, he took a sledge hammer and broke the sidewalk to put the spur in and we had to pour cement and redo the sidewalk. They were expected to work and work hard and they did. When they were out working, they worked as adults—period. I worked with them whenever I 38 could, but the money that they received is what they earned from their employment. They had to learn how to budget it. I did one thing when they turned 16, I gave each of them a credit card and warned them about getting into trouble with it. Everyone did and every one of them went through the pain and misery of having to pay it off because I wouldn't pay their debts. It taught them the use of credit as well. I remember my oldest son, Stephen, still had a debt and he wanted to go on an LDS mission. I wouldn't pay his credit card off, so he had to stay home for several months to earn enough money to pay off his debt before he could go. ROH: Did all of the kids go on missions? DA: No, just my two boys. ROH: Did they go to France as well? DA: Brett went to France and Stephen went to Arizona. His Arizona mission was Spanish-speaking so he had to learn Spanish. He had to speak completely in Spanish all the time. ROH: What part of Arizona? DA: It would have been the Southern part. Tempe was the mission headquarters, but he spent most of his time in the South dealing mostly with illegal aliens. ROH: Is there anything else you'd like to add about your kids? 39 DA: I'm proud of every one of them. They're all good kids. They married well and everyone is a productive member of society contributing to the betterment of society. I'm proud of them. They are just good kids. ROH: Can you tell me a little bit more about this daughter you raised from this Native American woman? How did that come about? DA: The Mormon church had a program in the earlier days called the Indian Placement Program where they would bring kids off the reservation, house them with Caucasians, and let them go to school in a better environment. The church was in hopes of bringing them out of poverty, alcoholism and things that are associated with the reservations. Laurice started in that direction with someone else. She was not doing well in the school program and was a "D" and "F" student. She was basically dropping out of the program and they talked her into coming back. I was just asked to take her because she was failing. I said, "Fine." I treated her just like one of my kids, my oldest daughter had moved out so Laurice had a bedroom to herself. Angelique was older than she and Heidi was younger than she and both were straight "A" students. One pulled and the other pushed Laurice. She went from "D's" and "F's" to straight "A's." When she graduated, she wanted to go back to the reservation. Her ambition was to get a couple of horses and ride them on the reservation. I said, "There's no way in the world I'm going to let you do that. You've got too much potential and you cannot do that." She said, "Well, this program is over." I said, "I know, but there's still no way I'm going to let you do that." Her mother had come 40 up to her high school graduation and she could not speak English, had no electricity in her Hogan and had no running water, yet she gave this girl a computer for graduation and gave her to me at the same time. She said, "Keep her." So I did. I sent her to Weber. In fact, the future president of Weber, Ann Milner, pulled strings to get her in because while she received "A's" while she was with us, there were "D's" and "F's" from before so she was not really a good candidate as far as the university was concerned. Ann pulled strings for me at my request. Laurice earned "A's" at Weber too. Ultimately, she married and has remained here in Utah. She's a good kid. She's got two kids that are straight "A" students too. In fact, I just got an email from her this weekend telling me about what was happening with her kids. ROH: How old are her kids now? DA: They're in junior high and high school. ROH: You raised wonderful children and some of them work here. I find it interesting that the other two work in English related fields similar to your mother. DA: Well, blame it on my grandfather. One of my grandfathers had an eighth grade education. The other graduated from the University of Utah and spoke Latin fluently. Both were farmers, but my grandfather that graduated from the University of Utah had the uncomfortable habit of correcting everyone's English. In fact, my father remarked that it got to a point with him that he refused to speak around my grandfather because his grammar was so atrocious. My grandfather passed his habit on to my mother and she was a stickler for grammar. She 41 passed it on to me and I passed it on to all of my kids. I don't correct people like my grandfather did, but I would correct my children and I expected them to speak properly. I also passed on to them a love for books. I've got a room that is probably about a third the size of this office that is a formal library with bookcases that are perpendicular to the wall going floor to ceiling. I have thousands and thousands of books in there and I encouraged my children to read and to read the classics. We would talk about them and they love books. All of my kids are voracious readers and whenever I had the time and was in town, I would correct my children's written compositions when they were in school. I even did it when they went to college. Speaking correctly is important and they passed it on. It was my grandfather's fault. ROH: What was your grandfather's name? DA: Rupert Morrill. ROH: Today is November 26, 2012, we are picking up oral history with DeWayne Ashmead in his office with Rebecca Ory Hernandez. DeWayne, you were getting ready to tell me about a funny story. DA: In the early 1970's, we needed to establish some of our products nationwide. I went out and lectured and worked with a customer and his customers for about six months. I would leave on Sunday and come back on Saturday and turn around and do it again for about six months straight. I just worked very hard. One of the companies I was working for was in the Midwest. On one occasion, I flew 42 into Chicago and a company man picked me up in the middle of a terrible snow storm. In the Midwest, the snow drifts. We went to one place where I was scheduled to speak that had 250 people committed and not one person showed up. So, we went to the next town where we were going to do this again, but on the way we were going down the road and the snow drifted. It was 10 or 12 feet high on one side of the road and the department of transportation had only cleaned off one lane. We were going down this lane and a Volkswagen came toward us. The guy I was with wouldn't slow down. I said, "Buck, you need to slow down." He said, "No, it's my road." At the last minute, the driver in the Volkswagen realized he was not going to move off the road and the Volkswagen dove for the snow drift and was just buried. I said, "Buck, you've got to stop and help." He said, "Hell no, he was in my side." So, he kept right on going. I couldn't get him to stop. We got to a Holiday Inn that evening and there were so many travelers stranded that everyone was required to share a room with someone else. I was the only person in the entire hotel that had a room to myself. It was so bitterly cold that I turned the heater up in the room as high as it would go and took all the blankets off the other bed and put them on my blanket and it was still freezing. The next morning, I got up and snow had drifted underneath the door about two feet into the room. It was so cold it had broken all the pipes so there was no hot water. We turned around and went right back to Chicago and everyone went home. That was one of the 1970's storms. In spite of the storm, this form of promotion and speaking was a good experience. In six months, we went from 43 zero to $3 million in sales with only one product. It was an iron product for pigs. I can tell you all about pigs. I know a lot about them. I like to work with pigs in research. They are very similar to human beings. They have the same metabolism, so if it works on a pig it will work on a human or vice versa. I applied a lot of what I learned with pigs to human beings as we developed nutritional programs for humans. ROH: Tell me a little bit about the company and the kinds of product that you offer. DA: The company grew and as it did we started manufacturing vitamin and mineral supplements for animals. Ultimately, it became the largest manufacturer of vitamin and mineral supplements in the United States. We were manufacturing for lots of different companies, but never under the Albion name. Instead, the products went private label for other companies. Albion also started manufacturing veterinary pharmaceuticals and became the largest manufacturer of veterinary pharmaceuticals west of the Mississippi. All of these things were very price-sensitive and we were looking for other things to do that were less price-sensitive. One of the things we did that I got involved in at the age of 16 or 17, was help develop a drug that dissolved kidney stones. We got a patent on it and my father is named in the patent. I'm not named in the patent, but I did a lot of the research primarily with sheep. We got Food and Drug Administration approval to market this product in certain species of animals and it was a very successful product. It really started to make Albion. The drug operated due to the principle of 44 chelation, which is a chemical term describing how a chelating agent will grab a mineral and hold that mineral. In the case of this drug, it would hold the mineral so tightly in the urine that the mineral could not combine with other substances to form a stone. The animal would then eliminate the mineral as a chelate in the urine as it voided its bladder. We did a lot of research with humans as well, but never got an FDA approval for human use. We became experts in the science of chelation. Along the way, we noticed that the animals were not efficiently absorbing the minerals that were being provided in these vitamin and mineral supplements that the company was also making. We could pick up those same minerals in the manure. So the question was: why aren't the animals absorbing these minerals? Albion has always had the reputation for high quality, so we wanted minerals that would absorb. We learned that for the animal to absorb a mineral, such as iron sulfate, it had to take the iron and tear it away from the sulfate. The iron then had to be chelated by amino acids that came from the digested protein in the food. The amino acids would bind the minerals and basically form an organic molecule, which the animal could then absorb. If you look in your body or the animal's body, there are no inorganic minerals other that in the bones and teeth. They're all organic molecules. When we discovered that the animals had to create these organic mineral molecules in their stomachs and intestines, we said, "Well, why don't we pre-chelate them?" No one knew how to do that, so it took a lot of research. I was deeply involved in doing the research and we developed minerals that were 45 bound to these amino acids as chelates prior to ingestion. We were awarded patents on them. Today, we have about 150 patents on this type of product. When we gave these amino acids to the animals, we expected to see greater absorption. We were surprised when the performance of the animal also changed. They grew faster, had better feed conversion, less morbidity, less mortality and better reproduction efficacy. We suddenly discovered that we had opened a whole new area of nutrition. Over time, we eliminated the veterinary supply business at Albion, eliminated the vitamin and mineral supplement division, got rid of the pharmaceutical production and focused exclusively on production of amino acid chelates. We introduced these amino acid chelates to the human nutrition market in about 1968. By 1970, it was pretty much established. The animal nutrition market was before that in the earlier 1960's. That business was what I was trying to establish when I was traveling early on in my career. In 1975, we entered the agricultural market and started selling amino acid chelates for plant use. So, it was plants, animals, and man. We built on all three fronts and it was difficult because we didn't have sufficient money. My father was a product of the depression and he did not like borrowing money. He did, but it was hard for him to borrow money. Consequently, we built the whole the thing out of our profits. We still do that for the most part today. We can borrow millions and millions of dollars, but I refuse to let the company do it. We're qualified, the banks say we can borrow all the money we want, but we just don't. We paved the way in human nutrition. I remember in the 1970's the FDA decided that the amino 46 acid chelates were a new product class that was not approved, so they started seizing products made by other companies that were trying to copy Albion. No one made them the way Albion did, but that's been the marketing program for competitors from the very beginning, "We're just like Albion, but cheaper." Anyway, the FDA seized those products from the other company and we could see the writing on the wall that eventually they would get around to Albion. We decided to be proactive and sue the FDA in federal court. We said, "Our chelates are safe and effective. You prove they aren't." The FDA looked at our data and signed a consent decree saying they agreed that Albion products are safe and effective. We became the only chelated product that was approved by FDA to be on the market. It made sense to sue the FDA at the time, because if we had gone the traditional route the FDA could take 180 days to look at something and they could ask a question which we would answer. Then it was another 180 days. They could delay approval for years and in the meantime, we would have been out of business. By suing them in federal court, we forced them to look at our data immediately and make a decision immediately because it's in the court. Today, we still continue to focus on these amino acid chelates. During the recession of 2008, we sold the animal division. It was a hard thing to do emotionally, but it was the right thing to do business-wise. So, we sold it to another company, but we still manufacture the chelates for them. We're still in the business, but not under the Albion label. That's gone, but we still do the human and plant products under the Albion label. ROH: Tell me about how you've impacted the agricultural system internationally. 47 DA: Going to business school, I learned that the worst recession to occur since the great depression in 1956 was the year Albion started. When I learned about that I went to my dad and said, "Why did you start a company in the middle of the worst recession since the great depression?" He looked at me and said, "Recession? I didn't know there was a recession, I just knew it was damn tough." That was always my father's attitude, just plow ahead and forget all the problems or the reasons why you can't do something. Just go do it. We continue to do that today to a degree. Anyway, I took the marketing side of it and I went across the United States and built a national chain of outlets for the human and for the animal divisions. If you remind me I'll come back to the human, we did something that I think was quite clever. I started looking internationally and I started going to Europe first with the animal products for some countries followed by the human products. We started getting customers, suppliers and building up the business. One of the biggest ways to sell a product was to stand up in front of a group of people and tell them why these products were good and let them take shots at you. The scientists would and I would answer their questions and convince them. We went throughout all of Europe and established markets there. I spent a lot of time in Europe which is one of the reasons why I don't particularly care whether I go back now or not. I've seen all of Europe that I want to see. We did that and it was primarily building up the animal and human sales. I established human sales in South America using Brazil as my center of influence and in Central America using Guatemala as my center of influence and spreading out. 48 ROH: Is there a reason for those particular countries? DA: At the time, Brazil was the very best country for economic development of any country in South America. Even to his day, Brazil, Argentina and Chile are really the best countries in South America. They've got stable governments now and economically they're in pretty good shape. One of the things I refuse to do is deal in other currencies. I deal in U.S. dollars. A lot of these countries don't have the dollars. I never was able to truly establish the animal business in Central or South America primarily because they fed their animals differently than what we did in Europe or in the United States. Most of the animals are grass fed, not supplement fed and Albion products go into supplements. So, that didn't work very well, but we established our agricultural division with our chelates for plant use in South America and Central America and it has grown extensively there. At one time, I knew more presidents of countries on a personal level than did the president of the United States. I would be at their homes. For example, one of the presidents of Panama, President Royo, would invite me to his home and he and I would play baseball with his son and my son out on his front lawn. This is the man that Noriega put a gun to his head and said, "I'll give you one of two choices. Either you resign or I pull the trigger. Which do you want?" One of my other friends was President Anwar Sadat. We started to develop the agricultural area in Egypt. When Jimmy Carter was president he brokered the peace accord between Israel and Egypt. Anwar Sadat had promised his people that if he could get peace with Israel, he would take some of the money that he had been spending on defending the border between Israel and Egypt, and grow 49 food for the Egyptians. Well, they got the peace, so he called me and a few others to come to Egypt and help him set up agricultural programs that would fulfill his promise. I went to Egypt to meet with him and did surveys in Egypt to determine what needed to be done. He wanted to put American technology to work in Egypt, so I said, "What I'm going to tell you, I'm philosophically opposed to, but it's the only way you can do it." In Egypt, the father would divide his farm between the sons, who would divide the farm between their sons. The average Egyptian farm is one quarter acre in size. I said, "You need to go into a village and say, "Okay, all of you are going to grow cotton." Go to the next one and say, "All of you are going to grow beans." You will have to dictate what they do and then you can bring the American technology and the large equipment into Egypt in order to get your economies in scale. Unless you do that, there's no way that you can do it and bring American technology in." He agreed with me and started to set up the programs I had outlined before he was assassinated. Mubarak didn't care about his people the way Sadat did. He hadn't made the promise and he wasn't about to spend money on something like that, so he shut the project down. On one occasion, I told Mubarak that I could eradicate iron deficiency and anemia, which was the single biggest disease in Egypt. I even offered to guarantee in writing that I would eradicate it and it would cost him 34 cents per person per year. He said, "No, that's too much money, we don't care." So, it didn't happen. From that we expanded into the Middle East and had offices in Beirut and worked in Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, Egypt, Morocco, and Lebanon. 50 ROH: Is this mostly animal? DA: This was the agricultural, plant division. It was growing bit by bit. One story I was going to tell you—a human story. Originally, when I set up the human business in the United States, it was through distributors. We would manufacture the chelates for nutritional companies and they would put their labels on our products and offer them for sale, but they wouldn't really go out and promote the products. They would offer them for sale as part of their entire product line. If the store wanted our products they would order them. The stores didn't purchase our products very often because they didn't know anything about them. I needed to go out and promote the chelates, but I didn't have any money to do it. I started another company called Rhondell, which was a division of Albion, but on the surface it looked like it was a separate company. It sold nothing but chelates to the customers of our customers. In other words, it was a competitor to our customers. Its mandate was to go out and sell these chelates and break even. I didn't care if Rhondell didn't make profit. They wanted to sell them at a lesser price than their competitors, but I didn't let them. They were always more expensive than the competition, but they sold chelates, talked about the chelates and advertised the chelates. Suddenly, the entire nutrition industry in the United States was abuzz with chelates. They'd come to Albion and say they want amino acid chelates that could compete with this Rhondell Company. We established the amino acid chelates in the in the marketplace and after they were established and everyone knew about them, I killed Rhondell. It never cost me anything to introduce and promote the products. 51 ROH: If one would have heard about chelation of blood for example, is that the same product? DA: No. There is a process called chelation therapy and I think that's what you're referring to. Chelation therapy is taking a synthetic chelate like EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, and injecting it into the blood stream. The theory is that if you have atherosclerosis or arteriosclerosis you have formed a calcium deposit in the blood vessels. The EDTA would come in and chelate the calcium in the blood and hold it so tightly that the body couldn't tear it away. The EDTA, being foreign to the body, would then be dumped into the urine and take the calcium with it. However, EDTA doesn't know the difference between calcium, iron, zinc, magnesium, etc., so it would chelate all of them. This could cause health problems. I was very critical of this except when it was done in a hospital. A lot of doctors were just doing Chelation Therapy in their offices and there were several people that died as a result. In fact, the pioneer of chelation therapy, Rudolf Alslaben, who was an acquaintance of mine, lost his license to practice medicine because he accidently killed a person with EDTA injections. Chelation Therapy was originally used for lead poisoning and done in the hospital. It's still done in the hospital for lead poisoning, but it can be very dangerous for treatment of atherosclerosis or arteriosclerosis. That type of chelation therapy is to get rid of minerals from the body. What Albion is doing is trying to get minerals into the body. 52 ROH: Tell me a little bit about your company today. What is the focus? DA: I guess today you'd have to ask others what they see. I'm a has-been. Today, the company is growing very rapidly. We have plans in place to expand the sales significantly in the days to come. I still hold the position of president and chairman of the board, but I am really not much involved in the day-to-day activities. We've got a good management team in place. They are working hard and are much younger than I am and have more energy. They're smart so they do it. My oldest son, Stephen, is involved. He is the heir apparent. My daughter Angelique is involved. She is the CPA and has a master's degree in accounting as well as a master's degree in computer science. She is a candidate for the CFO. My other son is over purchasing internationally, and has just been promoted to the chief operations officer for the company. These are Board appointments. I didn't have anything to do with them. We have outside people as well. We've got outside attorneys and the chief executive officer is not a family member. It makes a good team and they are all working hard. They do a good job, so I just let them go. ROH: Will the focus remain as you intended? DA: No, the focus doesn't remain as I intended because the situation changes and if I were to continue to go exactly the way I saw it ten years ago, we'd be out of business. We have to adapt. For example, I did not like the idea of selling the animal division. That pulled on my heartstrings because that's where Albion started. I worked hard to develop that business. If I had followed my emotions, 53 we would have never gotten rid of the animal division, but it was still the right thing to do. It was advocated initially by the CEO, Jim Hyde, as the right thing to do and as I analyzed his rationale. I agreed with him, but I didn't like it. So, in the future will we be exactly the same as we are today? No. We'll still adapt, modify and grow. We plan to be around another 50 years. ROH: The company is just one of these little secrets that we have here in our neighborhood. DA: Well, it is because our market is not in Utah. We live in Utah because we want to be in Utah. My kids had no idea who I really was or that I could walk into Anwar Sadat's home and be his friend, or walk into other famous people's homes and call on people around the world. They had no idea that outside of Utah I was quite famous. That was on purpose. I just wanted them to think of me as "Dad" and they did. Outside of Utah we are better known. ROH: How do you want to be remembered? DA: I don't care if I am. There are those that want to have buildings named after them and institutions named after them. I don't care about that. I really don't. I want my children to remember me and my grandchildren to remember me for what I stood for, what I was, and who I was and not what I've accomplished in a material sense. ROH: You're a very giving person, so I don't know if you're willing to talk about this on the record or not, but you've made some significant contributions to a lot of 54 different groups in the community, so tell me a little bit about your involvement with giving to Weber State. DA: As I told you earlier, I was working full-time and going to school full-time. For several years after I graduated I didn't have anything to do with Weber. I wasn't unhappy with Weber. I got a good education. I just didn't have anything to do with Weber. Then, Paul Thompson became president of Weber and had a focus that was different than previous presidents. I knew the previous presidents and still do and we visit from time to time. Anyway, Paul Thompson came into my office and talked with me about Weber and kind of sucked me in. I started paying attention to Weber and Paul asked me to be on the National Advisory Council, and that went on for a while. One day, Paul made a presentation at Weber about single parents that were struggling to get through school and how difficult it was. It really touched me, so Jill and I talked about it and we decided that we would start helping these single parents. We didn't care what their majors were or what the sex was, we would just help them. We started doing that and it just grew from there. ROH: You've served on lots of other boards as well, I'm sure. DA: I was asked to serve on the advisory board for the Goddard School of Business and Economics and I did that for several years. Ann Milner asked me to serve on the advisory council for the Health Professions, so I did that and continue to do that. They're trying to decide what they're going to be when they grow up and are having a hard time right now defining their objectives. That's not going very well 55 right now. The Arts & Humanities are talking to me about serving on that board. I haven't said yes, but I haven't said no we are just talking. I do that in addition to the National Advisory Council. I also serve on a board at the University of Utah, the board of the McKay Dee Hospital and the board of the YMCA. That is in addition to the boards of Albion. I also serve in a leadership position in my church. ROH: You've lectured I'm sure. DA: I have taught a few classes at Weber in business as well as the health sciences. I've done the same thing at the University of Utah and sit on a couple of advisory boards there too, but my heart really is with Weber. So, we just continue to go forward. ROH: You're being very modest. You also received an honorary doctorate degree from Weber. DA: Yes I did. ROH: What was that process like? DA: Well, you have to be nominated by someone else. I was nominated by someone, but I really don't know who. Carol Bittle came to me and said, "We need to put together a CV." So I helped her put it together and she submitted it to the selection committee and they said, "There's no way we're going to give him anything." Actually, they did turn it down. They didn't like what she had done, so she came back a second time and said, "We need to improve this." So, I did what 56 she asked and she re-submitted it and they selected me for an honorary doctorate. It's really significant from several points of view. My mother was still alive at the time and it really touched her and was really important to her. My mother had a doctorate from the University of Utah and my late father also had a doctorate. I had a doctorate from another institution, but this meant a lot to her to be honored that way. There was one other honor that I received that meant a lot to her and it was gratifying to receive. I was recognized as entrepreneur of the year by Ernest and Young. ROH: That's significant, DeWayne. DA: You think so? It was kind of neat. They came in and did a lot of interviewing and taping of the interviews with me and others that were being nominated. We went to a banquet and no one knew who was going to be honored. I really didn't want to go, but I went and I was awarded the recognition. ROH: Congratulations. DA: Thank you. ROH: Are there any other significant accomplishments connected to the company that you might want to mention? DA: I suppose one thing that is important is that I've authored eleven technical books on chelation. Some of them have been used as university textbooks. The most recent was published this year, 2012. It is a very defining book. It describes how a chelated mineral is absorbed into the intestinal cell, then into the bloodstream 57 and from the bloodstream into the cells of the body. I have been told that the research is Nobel Prize winning material. ROH: What's the title of the book? DA: It's called, Chelated Mineral Nutrition in Animals and Humans. ROH: Who is the publisher? DA: CRC Press, which is one of the major scientific presses in the United States. That made me feel good. I don't think there's another book in me like that. ROH: You don't think so? DA: Not like that. ROH: Except for the one you're writing about your father. DA: Well, that's a little different. When I started to write the last book on chelates, I got it about half done and had to go in for open heart surgery to correct a congenital problem. I thought, "Well, when I come out of surgery I'll be recovering for a while and I'll finish the book." I found that I couldn't even think for months. So, the book sat unfinished and when I picked it up to finish it, I couldn't remember what I had written so I had to start all over again and rewrite the book. So, it was about a three year process. The book went through about 23 drafts before I was satisfied with what it said. ROH: Goodness. DA: I then submitted it to the publisher. 58 ROH: So, you didn't mention the heart business earlier on, did you use any of your nutritional technology in recovering from your heart surgery? When did that happen? DA: Three or four years ago. I've known about this congenital defect, my valve would not close. When they got into my heart they also found that I had a hole in my heart that was congenital. The valve wouldn't close which on one hand was pretty good because it kept me out of Vietnam. I never wanted to go to Vietnam. It didn't really bother me, but for several years I was consulting a cardiologist just watching it because as I got older I recognized that this problem was going to manifest itself more and more. On one occasion, in the summer, we were doing a Concore d'Elegance— a car show where we brought cars in from all over the United States. I was involved in the management of this show and people that were on the organizing committee kept dropping balls and I kept picking them up. Pretty soon, I was juggling all the balls. By the time the show occurred in August of that year, I was absolutely exhausted. After the show was over, my wife and I decided to go on this little vacation and when we got to Colorado in the high country I couldn't breathe. She wanted to put me in a hospital and I refused to go to the hospital. I sit on the board of a hospital, I know what hospitals are like. We came back to Utah and I went to see the cardiologist. He said, "It's time." So, I went in for surgery. The cardiologist as well as the heart surgeon said, "Other than the fact that you have the congenital problems, you're really as healthy as anyone I've ever operated on. However, this is pretty serious business." The cardiologist told 59 me that I had less than a 50 percent chance of living through the surgery. The surgeon said, "I'm going to guarantee that you'll wake up, I just won't guarantee where. So, get all of your "T's" crossed, "I's" dotted and take care of all of your personal affairs because you may not make it." I did and went in for surgery and I did just about die. I was within two or three minutes of dying. They missed a bleeder and I about bled to death. They went through five or six pints of blood. ROH: Where did you have the surgery done? DA: McKay-Dee Hospital. North of Salt Lake, McKay-Dee is probably one of the best heart hospitals in the state. There are probably surgeons as good in Salt Lake, but I had a personal relationship with the ones at McKay-Dee and they were good too. They are nationally recognized, so it was okay. ROH: How are you feeling now? DA: Ornery. ROH: Good, you're back to your old self. DA: There you go. I feel fine. ROH: It must have scared your family though, and your business colleagues as well. DA: I think it probably did. They watched over me pretty carefully. My son wouldn't let anyone come in to see me. People from work would try to come and see me and he'd stand guard and just wouldn't let them come in. It was touch and go for a while. 60 ROH: You're doing great now, so what are your plans for the future? DA: Just more of the same. I have no intention of retiring. I like to work. If I were to retire, what would I do? I don't really have anything I want to do full-time other than work. As I said, I sit on the board of University of Utah, Weber, the hospital, and the YMCA. I'm happy doing what I'm doing. ROH: We talked a little bit about that last time. How many cars do you have now? DA: I don't know. See, if I don't know then I can honestly say in front of my wife, "I don't know." ROH: Is it more than 50? DA: More than 50. ROH: Should I stop there? DA: Probably. It's approximately 60 cars, but I really don't know. ROH: What is your favorite? DA: I don't have a favorite. That's like asking, "Who's your favorite kid?" The cars are primarily sports cars and performance cars. I have three criteria for a car. One, it's got to be a sports car, but I can make anything into a sports car. I can rationalize lots of things. For example, I have a 1966 Pontiac GTO and this Pontiac GTO raced the Ferrari GTO and beat it. If the Ferrari is a sports car, then the Pontiac must be a sports car because it beat the Ferrari. I rationalize it. Then, 61 it has to be rare or unique. I have a lot of cars that are the only one ever built. Third, I just have to like it. ROH: You love sports cars and you love art. Do you have any other hobbies? DA: Well you said, "Anything else?" I was going to say, "I love my wife." ROH: Of course, we know you love your wife and your family and your company. DA: I like genealogy. I do genealogical research. I wrote a book about my family tracing the Ashmead's back to 1530 up to 1968 which was the death of my grandfather. My father asked me not to write about him while he was alive, so I respected that and now I'm doing it. That book was published. My manuscript was about 1,600 pages and I had to go to a professional editor and have the editor pare it down to about 1,100 pages. I couldn't do it because everything I said was important, so the editor had to determine what was not important enough to put in the book. I published that, which was kind of a fun thing. It's in most genealogical libraries and major historical collections. ROH: We know you've met lots of important people throughout your life as well. Is there any particular meeting with a head of state or anyone in general that stands out in your mind? DA: There were three most significant events in my lifetime as far as I'm concerned. One was in 1957 with the launching of Sputnik by the Soviet Union. That was a major thing for me. Another was in 1963 when Kennedy was assassinated. The thing that really impacted me from a different point of view was when Dr. 62 Christian Barnard did the first heart transplant. That has always stood out in my mind as a major accomplishment. It was one of the most phenomenal things that had ever happened. Dr. Barnard, years later in the 1990's, read my published research. He was so impressed with it that he decided to come and see if I was really for real. He got on a plane and flew from South Africa to Salt Lake to meet me and we became good friends. Meeting Chris Barnard was one of the highlights of my life. He never looked at himself as being that spectacular and he'd say, "It was just another operation." For me, it was phenomenal. I've counted Chris Barnard as one of my good friends. He came to Utah several times and I went to South Africa several times. Ultimately, he was at a swimming pool in Greece when he had an asthmatic attack and didn't have his inhaler with him and died. I've always looked back at Chris Barnard as probably one of the more important people that I have met. ROH: What piece of your research was it that he read? DA: It wasn't a piece, it was the whole thing. He read the whole philosophy. Keep in mind, I have published about 250 magazine articles and 60 or 70 peer reviewed journal articles. I don't know what pieces he picked up, or if he read all of it. Somewhere in there he read it and after his first visit to Utah he called a press conference and said, "I'm going to spend the rest of my life promoting the concepts of Dr. Ashmead." ROH: How long did he stay when he came to visit? 63 DA: About a week. One of the things I did was organize a private dinner for him and all of the employees at Albion so they could all have dinner with Chris Barnard. I still remember one of the employees being so overwhelmed being in his presence that she just broke down in tears and just sobbed. When I opened China with the animal products, I went to China and was the first American to lecture in China following the closure of the borders by Mao. I lectured in Gaungzhou (Canton) at the university. My host for that was a professor that had been educated in the United States had gone back to China. During the Cultural Revolution, he was a ditch digger. After Mao died and China started to reinvent itself, he became a professor again at the university. He served as my translator and I lectured all morning. Somewhere around noon or 1:00 p.m., I quit lecturing and we broke for lunch. We went somewhere for lunch and when we came back, the lecture hall was filled with the same people. I turned to my host and said, "How did they know how long I was going to be gone for lunch because I had no idea where we were going?" He said, "They didn't know. They dared not leave for fear that they would miss something that you said. These people in the audience are all university professors and they have traveled from all across China to hear you. Some of them traveled for several days just to get here." That was very touching. I said, "I want you to arrange a banquet. I'll pay for it. I want to feed all of them while they're here." We did and it was an interesting banquet. I went around and toasted every table because they were all in the round tables. Since I don't drink they thought it was really funny the way I toasted them, but I did. One waitress lost her job because she didn't 64 give me the pigeon head, which was reserved for the most important person at the banquet. She gave it to someone else. I assured them it was perfectly fine, but she still lost her job. Later, I couldn't get the group at the banquet to go home. They sat there and sat there. Finally, I turned to my host and asked, "How do we get them to leave?" He said, "Well, you've got to excuse them. You go stand at the door and they'll get up and shake your hand and leave." I stood by the door and they all shook my hand. The old professors before Mau would bow and shake my hand and the young professors that were trained during Mau's time were ram-rod stiff, but would still shake my hand. It was a very touching thing to have professors from China come to Gaungzhou just to hear me speak. ROH: Is there anything that people might be surprised to know about you? DA: Well, if they couldn't see me on the camera I could say that I'm really good looking, but they can see me on the camera. I think that I have a lot of interests and when I focus on an interest I can become very focused on it. There are things that depending on which part of my life you're in, you would not know about the other parts of my life because I really focus on that single aspect when I'm there. We haven't talked much about it, and I won't talk much about it, but I'm really very religious and that is extremely important. I'm deeply involved in the LDS church and have been in a leadership position most of my life and continue to do so. If you saw me in a church setting, then I'm very religious and I hope it 65 translates into other aspects of my life. I hope that I still maintain that religious integrity. ROH: I think it does. I don't think people would be surprised by that. DA: That's important. If you deal in cars, I am really involved in cars and I am an expert in cars. I judge car shows all over the United States because I'm an expert. I am a master judge at these shows. If you talk about Albion, you can go one of two ways in the company. I'm a businessman and I really am a businessman. We have built an international business because of the work that I started and its now being carried on by others. I'm also a scientist and I am considered a good scientist and am well-known in the scientific circles for what I do. So, you've got those too. If you talk about art collections, I can get involved there. There are all of these different aspects of my life and if you only see one of these aspects, then I think you would be surprised at the others as you came to know me. My kids used to laugh at their friends because they would say, "Your dad is so serious and so strict." My kids would say, "You don't know my dad. He's got a great sense of humor and he's a tease." I am, but what these kids were seeing was one of my sides, not all of my sides. Whereas, my kids would see the other sides and know me differently. I don't know if that answers it. ROH: It certainly does—science and art, cars, and religion. Is there anything else that I haven't asked that you were hoping or expecting that I'd ask you? 66 DA: Not really. I would want it known that my wife is very important to me. She and I have been sweethearts since the age of 16 and at that ripe old age we wanted to get married. We waited until we were 22. We've been sweethearts forever and in three more years we will celebrate our 50th anniversary. She has been by my side the entire time. In the early days of Albion, she helped. She never got paid, but she worked at Albion. She saw the struggles and never once complained about my traveling. She never complained about my church work when I was at home. I would come home from work and immediately go do church work until late at night and she never once complained right up to the present. Yesterday, I left about 7:00 in the morning and came home about 6:00 at night and she didn't say anything. I appreciate that. She did a great job with raising our children. We've got five fantastic kids that were never in trouble and all of them educated. We've also got eighteen grandkids. I attribute that to my wife, not me. She's been my partner, my sweetheart, everything and that's more important than anything I've got. ROH: Thank you so much, DeWayne. We appreciate the time you took in sharing your story. I really appreciate your time. DA: You're welcome.

Betty J. Ott ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 13p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; i Oral History Program Betty J. Ott Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 7 November 2011 ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Betty J. Ott Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 7 November 2011 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection includes interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories date back to the early settlement of North Ogden, and cover various topics including the History of Fort Buenaventura, city government affairs, controversial issues, Latinos in Ogden, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Betty J. Ott, an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 7 November 2011, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Layton and Betty Ott Portrait,1952 Layton and Betty Ott Portrait, 1990 Ott Family Portrait, 1994 Back Row: Corinne Jensen, Debora Blade, Stephen Ott, Patricia Godfrey, Norma Meyers Front Row: Vickie Schwurack, Betty Ott, Layton Ott, Lorie Roe 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Betty J. Ott. Betty (b.1932) and her husband, the late Layton P. Ott (1930-2004), who generously named the Weber State University's Ott Planetarium. The oral history focuses on Layton's work in science and his love of astronomy and physics. The interview was conducted on November 7, 2011 by Rebecca Ory Hernandez in order to gather Betty and Layton's experiences with Weber State University, including philanthropy. The Ott's important gift to Weber State University assures that the Ott Planetarium continues to do quality production and also allows resources to continue the outreach programs and field trips that the Ott Planetarium staff is so great at implementing. Over 22,000 children go through the Ott Planetarium annually. The Ott Planetarium has received NASA awards as well as local and regional recognition due to their generous support. ROH: Today is November 10, 2011. We are in the home of Mrs. Betty Ott in St. George, Utah. Present are Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State and Betty. We're going to talk a little about Betty's history and her husband's history. We'll also talk about their connection to Weber State University. Let's start with your name. BO: I was born Betty Byrd on November 25, 1932, in Phillips County, Arkansas. My mother was Mary Magdalene Brantly. My dad was Marvin Martin Byrd. I was the third of their eight children. We lived on a big farm. My dad raised lots of cotton and lots of corn. I attended school in West Helena, Arkansas. I graduated top in my class in 1950. Then I moved to Little Rock, Arkansas, where I was a 2 secretary for a company that sold feed to cattle. It was called Thibault Milling Company. I met my husband while he was an LDS missionary. I met him and his companion one day and my folks did not want me to have anything to do with the LDS Church. I was getting a lot of problems, so I moved to Little Rock so I could do what I wanted to do. There was an attorney who was a member of the Church there. He took me to meet the people at the Thibault Milling Company and they hired me to work for them as a secretary. I was there for about a year and a half. Layton was in Arkansas to start with and he got transferred to Oklahoma, where he spent the rest of his time. ROH: Where was Layton from? BO: He was from a little town called Tropic, Utah. It's by Bryce Canyon. His dad raised cattle and his mother taught elementary school. His mother had lived in Ogden, but when she graduated, she went to Weber when it was Weber Academy. It only took two years, at that time, to become a teacher; then the State sent her down to a little place in Garfield County to teach. That was the Ott-family area down there and that's how she met Layton's dad. Layton was born in West Point; they lived there for a time. He had a brother and a sister. I thought Layton was really wonderful, so I corresponded with him while he was in Oklahoma. He wrote me a letter and said, "Would you marry me after my mission?" And we did. When we got married, we lived in Provo for a while. He was going to BYU and we didn't have jobs. We moved to Salt Lake and he went to the University of Utah. 3 ROH: What year did you get married? BO: In 1952. ROH: Where did you marry? BO: In the Logan Temple. I had a job working for a finance company while he was doing every kind of odd job he could in order to keep us afloat. He went to the U for a year, and then he got drafted into the Army. He was trained in Fort Ord, California, but when he finished training, he got sent to Petersburg, Virginia. He taught classes for the military there. ROH: Where were you at that time? BO: I was with him—not during the Basic Training, but after that I got to go with him. In November 1953, we had our first daughter, Deborah. ROH: Where was she born? BO: When he first got drafted into the Army, I stayed here in St. George because I didn't have another place to go. So I had Deborah here in St. George. When he finished with his military service, we came back to Salt Lake and he finished his Bachelor's degree. He graduated top in his group and he was offered two scholarships. He took the one in Los Angeles. We moved there and he got his Master's degree from UCLA. We had a son while he was in the military and our second daughter was born at the UCLA Medical Center. Then we moved back to Utah and he went to the University of Utah for his doctoral work. He got hired at the University [of Utah] and taught in the Business Department for about seventeen years. He loved it and he loved the young people. He actually got an 4 award from the University of Utah students, who voted him as one of the best professors in that department. ROH: Was his Master's in business? BO: Yes, it was an MBA. After he'd been at the U for about seventeen years, he said, "I need to do something different." It was about this time that he met President Miller, who was Weber's president. Weber wanted to get a planetarium, but financially it wasn't there. Layton helped them by donating a lot of things—he donated land so they could sell it, he also donated a coin collection…I don't remember everything. But he helped them so they could get the planetarium. ROH: What is the connection between his work in business and the planetarium? BO: He had a telescope and he loved to take the children out at night and show them. When Weber wanted to get a planetarium, it hit Layton just right. ROH: He was passionate about stars and astronomy. BO: He was, really. ROH: Do you know if he always had that hobby? Even as a young person? BO: I'm not sure. The only thing I remember was that when he was in Boy Scouts, they could get a merit badge for astronomy. Maybe that's where it started. ROH: How involved were you in that process of donating and helping Weber get a planetarium? BO: I was tending children all that time. It was a neat thing for me because I was supportive of him and what he did and when it was dedicated, I got invited to come. That was good. ROH: It must have been a happy day when we had the planetarium grand opening. 5 BO: It was beautiful. Then, after Layton passed away—it was in 2005 or 2006—we gave the money to Weber to get a new telescope and new chairs and things. ROH: When did Layton pass away? BO: It was in 2004. ROH: Did he stay connected to Weber all those years after meeting President Miller? BO: He did. He had a passion for helping Weber get what they needed. We spent a lot of time there. We got acquainted with most of the presidents of the college. He was really happy when it was made a university, too. Actually, President Naduald was the president of Weber and now he's the president of Dixie. He's a very nice person. ROH: How have you stayed involved with the planetarium since Layton's been gone? BO: Every year, Dr. Ostile and Lisa would come down to visit me and I continually give money to take care of things. We've done that every year. I don't know how it happened, but I know Layton had a desire to really help people and the planetarium. I think it was two years ago that we agreed to donate a certain amount to Weber for ten years. My son is involved in that. ROH: I wanted to ask if all of your children have been involved. BO: Mainly my son. One of the professors there had taken a leave of absence and my son graduated with a Master's degree from BYU, so they called him and asked him if he'd be willing to substitute. It was an accounting class. For some reason, we have just always stayed close to Weber. It meant a lot for Lisa and Dr. Ostlie to take the time to come down to visit. ROH: Have you been able to go to any of the shows in the planetarium? 6 BO: Yes. All of my family came into town and they had a special showing when they got all the new equipment in. The kids loved it. Dr. Ostlie and the proctors were so kind. They said, "Anytime there's kids trying to get merit badges or something, bring them here and we'll do a show for them." They are very kind. My son was a bishop in Kaysville and they would take kids up to see a show. The boys would get a merit badge for it. Weber has been very kind to me and to our family. I can't think of any other way to say it. ROH: That's perfect. Has this project that you've helped with caused you to have a greater interest in astronomy? BO: I love it, but I don't have a telescope or anything. I love to sit out at night in the summer and see the stars and the moon and think, "We've got a beautiful world." Layton would take the kids outside with a telescope and find the Big Dipper and things like that and he'd tell the kids all about it. ROH: Have your children become more inquisitive about astronomy because of this? BO: I would say so, but not in a large way. Lots of grandsons have enjoyed going to Weber to see the shows. It was nice for the kids. ROH: Is there anything you'd like us to know about Layton? BO: Oh my goodness, it would take all day to tell you all the wonderful things about Layton. When he gave up teaching at the University of Utah, he had two partners in Salt Lake that asked him if the three of them could start a developing businesses together—shopping centers in the Salt Lake area and those sorts of things. Their big project was the Layton Hills Mall. He did a lot of developing. One of his partners was sent to Armenia to build a cement plant—they had an 7 enormous earthquake there that destroyed a lot. After about six years of being over there, he got burned and came home and passed away at the University of Utah's Medical Center. But these three really were the best partnership you could ever ask for. They were just completely in accord. Layton was the one that made sure the financial part of it was okay. David Horn was the builder. Then Paul and Bob Mendenhall were the two that got the companies into the mall. They were together probably ten or so years. ROH: How did they know one another? BO: Through church. ROH: Was he working in the business world at the same time that he was teaching? BO: No. When he first quit teaching at the U, he bought a business from a company in Tooele. It was called Vista International. For several years, that company made pieces that fit on the back of a truck—now they're just called campers, I think. They really expanded that quite a bit. ROH: Did your family go camping? BO: The people who were building these campers said to him one day, "We have built a camper just for you. You need to come and see it." They'd put carpet and all these various things in it…it was really pretty. We took the children and went to Yellowstone—by then, we had six of our children. We stayed one night—we stayed in the hotel and the kids stayed in the trailer. Layton took it back and told the guy, "Sell it, I don't need it." It was not for him. He did not like to camp. Even as an Eagle Scout, he didn't want to go into the wilderness and set up a tent. [Laughter] 8 ROH: How long did he teach? BO: About seventeen years. And that camper business was the first thing that he went into. Doing strip malls and things came later. ROH: You've mentioned a few of your children. Would you tell us who they are and the years they were born? BO: Deborah Kay was born November 11, 1953. Steven Layton was born July 11, 1955. Laurie was born June 24, 1957; she's the one who was born at UCLA. Then Vicki Lynn was born August 15, 1958. Then we decided, "Wow, we've got to slow this down!" [Laughter] So we waited six years and then had Corinne; she was born on March 16, 1964. Patricia was born March 14, 1966. She and her husband Darin are very involved in Weber State. ROH: Did she go to Weber? BO: She and her husband graduated from Weber. Trisha got her Bachelor's and Darin got his Master's. Then, our youngest child is Norma Jean; she was born May 28, 1970. Norma graduated from BYU Hawaii. She met a guy over there and when she came home for Christmas she said, "I've met someone and I want to get married." That's when we decided to move to St. George. We wanted to get out of the cold weather; plus, Layton's mother lived there and she was not in good health, so we were coming down a lot for her sake. ROH: Had she moved from Tropic to St. George? BO: Yes, she had actually moved to St. George quite a few years earlier because she taught first grade at the school here. ROH: Would talk a little about your son's involvement in Weber State? 9 BO: He takes care of all the financial things between us and Weber. Weber knows his phone number and address. He could tell you so much more than I could. His dad idolized him and they did everything together. He's actually the CFO of Living Scriptures in Ogden. At one point, he quit and they hired another guy, then the boss called and said, "Steve, we've got to have you back." I think he works three days a week there. He has golfed with Dr. Ostlie and Lisa. Plus, his daughter Melanie is going to Weber right now. She wants to get a degree where she can…you know how when someone writes a book and you get it reviewed by someone? That's what she's going to school for. She wants to be able to do reviews of things. ROH: Do you go back to Weber State on occasion? BO: I get invited, but it's so far away! [Laughter] ROH: I know. I was wondering if there are things that you attend sometimes or if you go to campus to see the planetarium. BO: I think the last time I saw the planetarium was when they did the remodeling and dedication and all the family was there. I'm kind of a person who doesn't do social things. ROH: Tell me a little about what you do here in St. George. BO: I really enjoy it here. I've been working at the temple as an ordinance worker. I got released just recently, so now I go over to do my work. It's a beautiful thing and the work is beautiful. Around 1999, Layton said, "Let's take the children and go traveling with them." So in 1999, we did a cruise and went to Russia. The next year, we did a cruise and went to New England and Canada. The year after, we 10 did a cruise to Alaska. Then he started taking all the grandkids, too. It was a job. Then, in 2003, he took the children on a Caribbean cruise around Thanksgiving time and he passed away the following January. ROH: How did he pass away? BO: In 1973…he had a cousin who was Chief of Police in Salt Lake. He had been in the military and he trained people what to do with the enemy or bombs and things. We went with them for a month and in that period of time, Layton picked up salmonella. Normally, that's only dysentery and you get rid of it. But the doctor assumed that Layton had an ulcer and it got in his ulcer. He was in the hospital all summer long and it was so bad that we assumed we were going to lose him. Well, it affected his liver the worst, but it affected all of his vital organs. He had a number of operations. They did a surgery on him that worked, but you never get rid of the salmonella virus. When we came here, we found a doctor who works with livers as his specialty. About two years before Layton passed away, the doctor said, "Layton, I've done all I can do for you. I'll give you two years." Layton lived two more years and a month. Of course, I didn't know about that. Layton didn't tell me. He told my son and my son told me after Layton passed away. ROH: I guess he didn't want to worry you. BO: That's what Steve said. ROH: I'm very sorry. You said that Layton did some military duty, did he ever go overseas? BO: No. He was at Fort Lee teaching classes for the military. Then he got sent to a place in California; for some reason they had not kept the books that had to do 11 with the NCO Club. There were a lot of things about it that were a mess and they were trying to close it. I can't remember the name of the base. ROH: Which branch of the military? BO: The Army. His job was to construct a set of books that looked legal. It passed and so he worked there until about the last of August. They gave him an early release so he could go back to school. He went back and got his Bachelor's degree. ROH: So he wasn't in the military very long. BO: About two years. ROH: Did he have anything to say about that time in the military? Based on the rest of his life, that's a really small period of time. BO: There were several guys from Utah that had all gotten drafted at the same time and gone to Basic Training together. One of them had a car there and on the way back, they had a wreck. Layton's back was broken in the accident. From February through the end of April he was in the hospital trying to get it fixed. In May, they sent him to Fort Lee, Virginia. Because he had a bad back, he never had to do KP or guard duty or anything like that, so that was a good thing. But anyway, he did so many wonderful things. ROH: What did the two of you enjoy doing together as far as family traditions? BO: I think the most we ever did was go to movies together. We were stay-at-home kind of people. If we did do things, we had all the kids with us. Friday night was his day with all the kids and me. Every Friday night, they got to go out to dinner and chose where they wanted to eat. Then we'd come home and play games. He 12 thought his kids were the only kids in the world, I think. [Laughter] We were both very active in the Church so we did a lot of things church-wise. But he worked long hours when he quit teaching, and he felt like any time he had, he had to spend it with the family. So that was what we did. When we went on vacation, they all went with us. Except when we went to Asia. ROH: When did you go to Asia? BO: In 1973, that was when he picked up salmonella. ROH: Were you with him? BO: Yes. The four of us had to be tested, but he was the only one who had gotten it. ROH: Do you recall where you were based? BO: We weren't really based anywhere. In Salt Lake, there was a sort of international police chief convention [International Association of Chiefs of Police Convention]. The first country we went to was Japan; they wanted him to come in and talk to their police department and say, "If this happens…this is what you can do." We went all over. We were in the Philippines and Singapore and Thailand. That was quite an experience. When we were in Thailand, they invited us to see some beautiful dance shows. We enjoyed Thai food. We got entertained as if we were VIPs. ROH: Layton was never a policeman though? BO: Layton wasn't, but Layton's cousin, Earl was a policeman. Earl and his wife asked us if we'd go with them. We had a wonderful time in Japan. We got to see them diving for pearls and various things. ROH: That sounds exciting. I've never seen pearl diving. 13 BO: Yes. They have to be in a certain place and a certain depth of water, so we were taken out to a place where we could see them diving for the pearls. ROH: Okay. So neither you nor Layton attended Weber State. BO: Just his mother. She knew President Miller and I think that was what started her interest. President Miller was from West Point, I believe, and that's where Layton's mother grew up. ROH: Next week, I have an appointment to talk to the five daughters of President Miller. BO: Oh, he was such a kind, good man. President Nadauld was, too. When we moved down here, we were trying to help him to keep some programs going, too. Layton was really a lover of education and he wanted all of his kids to be well-educated. I have twenty grandchildren and fourteen great-grandchildren. The oldest just turned twenty and he's going to Honduras to serve a mission for the Church. Trisha's son is in Norway. My daughter Corinne's third daughter is in the Singapore Mission in the Malaysian Islands. ROH: Three of your grandchildren on missions at the same time? BO: Yes. Other than that, I've got grandkids who have done wonderful things. Everybody does. ROH: Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

Bettye B. Gillespie ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 17p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Bettye B. Gillespie Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 11 July 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Bettye B. Gillespie Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 11 July 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Gillespie, Bettye, an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 11 July 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Bettye B. Gillespie July 11, 2012 1 Abstract: Bettye Gillespie met with Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University's development office to talk about her life and education, along with the life and activism within the NAACP of her husband, James Harding Gillespie. James Harding Gillespie was the chair of the Ogden, Utah NAACP chapter for over 30 years. Bettye joined "Jim" in his work as a civil rights leader. Bettye also speaks of attending Ogden High School, then continuing her education in politics and later at the University of Utah in the Human Resources Management master's level program. Bettye served and retired as the first female Equal Opportunity Director at Hill Air Force Base. ROH: Today is Wednesday, July 11, 2012, and we are in the home of Ms. Bettye Gillespie. I am Rebecca Ory Hernandez, here to do an oral history with Bettye about her involvement with the NAACP Organization and the civil rights movement in Utah as well as nationally. Why don't we just start with talking a little bit about your education and how you came to be involved in political science? BG: I have a degree in political science from the University of Utah. I also studied at Howard University in Washington D.C. and nearly completed a Master's Degree with the exception of a written thesis. My aunt lived in Washington D.C. and that's how I got there. I came home and got my Master's Degree at the University of Utah in Human Resource Management after I started working. ROH: How did you become so interested in politics? BG: My husband was president of the NAACP for thirty-three years. Of course, that automatically involved me in politics. 2 ROH: Was he the president of the Ogden branch? BG: Marshall White was the president and my husband was the vice president. Marshall White was an Ogden policeman and was killed in the line of duty. My husband then became president. That would have been quite a number of years ago. My husband passed away three years ago. ROH: Do you remember the year when he became president? BG: I don't remember, but they have a really nice portrait of Marshall White at the Center and they could tell you. ROH: What were some of the things that you did as a member of that group? BG: I was a Youth Director. We had quite an active group at that time. My kids were all involved and two of my daughters served on the National NAACP board. My oldest daughter, Shauna, and my middle girl, Deon, both served on the youth board and we were seriously into it. There were so many demonstrations and marches going on all over the country. We were equally involved. Just before we lost Marshall White, we moved to a house in Riverdale. It was up on the edge of Washington Terrace. We bought this house and some people threw tar through the window just before we moved in. It caused quite a stir. ROH: What year would that have been? Give me a time frame. BG: That would have been about thirty-five to forty years ago (early 1970's). ROH: What were you able to do? Was there any kind of response? BG: It was all over the paper and in the news. There were neighbors around there who came with their scrub buckets and cleaned it all up. Of course, the FBI was involved and they don't tell you a lot but they took care of it. There were some 3 kids in the neighborhood that my kids knew. We didn't know they lived there at the time. I'll never forget one lady who came with her grandson and he had his scrub bucket and they were really cleaning that tar. My kids were little and the Stake President on the side had two big strapping boys and he told them, "Go look after and make sure the Gillespie girls don't have any problems." As it turned out it, not everybody was nice. There was one man who said, "Well, our property values are going to go down." Before it was over with, the Men's Layman League from the Congregational Church came out and formed a circle around that block. They were going to protect us. There were other people we knew personally that came from the United Methodist and Episcopal Churches. There was one guy that came and sat on our front porch with a big rifle. ROH: How long did you live there? BG: We lived there for about eight years. ROH: Were there other incidents after that first incident? BG: Telephone. ROH: Crank calls? BG: Yes. My oldest girl loved to answer the phone and it got to the point where they had to go through a telephone operator in order to get to us. We got a lot of crank mail, so all of our mail went through the postmaster before it came to us. Those were interesting times. In the meantime, they were having riots in Los Angeles and throughout the country. We survived and before it was over everybody was our friend and all of their kids were in our yard wanting to play in the kid's pool and the swing set. 4 ROH: You mentioned some marches that went on here in Ogden. Can you tell me about a couple of those and what was surrounding the reason for the marches? BG: The one I can remember was when they completed the Marshall White Center. My husband had a lot to do with that center being built. The Secretary of Housing and Urban Development was on the National Board of the NAACP. We talked back and forth to him and got it funded because there was no recreation at all in that area. ROH: There were no parks or recreation centers on that side of town? BG: No. ROH: At that time in history, were things pretty well integrated in Ogden? BG: Well, certainly some people were. We did have a problem with Lorin Farr Park. At that time, they didn't want black people to swim in that pool there. I was still in the youth group when people told us that, so I threw my bathing suit over my back and with a couple of men went out there to see. Sure enough, it was true. We went to the city council and they talked about, "Why don't we build a swimming pool in that area?" Now, we're talking about one tenth of one percent black people at that time. They didn't have any money to build a swimming pool for a handful of black folks. Weber State was on 25th Street and they had a pool. They said, "They can come up here and swim." It really surprised everybody. It turned out that they were embarrassed. Of course, I was no great swimmer and when I was a child my mother would have never let me go into a public pool. We had our share of problems and there were restaurants that would not serve black people. ROH: Do you remember any of the names of those places? 5 BG: I'll never remember the names of them. One of them was a Chinese restaurant. It's long gone. There was another one where they were just as nice as could be. There was one that Jimmy and I would go to and one day we took another black couple and they wouldn't serve us. ROH: Odd. BG: Really odd. That was that same Chinese restaurant. ROH: Was this early in your marriage or after you'd already had children? BG: I know that would have been in the sixties. I do remember that because after the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964, we went right back to that same restaurant with that other couple and they gave us such good service. They gave us so many shrimp we didn't know what to do with them. We were in Washington, D.C. when the Civil Rights Bill passed. The NAACP lawyer came into the meeting and told us that the bill was passed. After we got home we went to the restaurant. The couple with us was also quite prominent. Much later, Margo was on the board of trustees of Weber State. They were just really lovely people. ROH: What were their last names? BG: Margo and Ira Horton. ROH: What was it like being in the meeting in Washington D.C. when that bill was passed? BG: There was a really big celebration. People were seriously into civil rights and there were a lot of people there. There were a lot of big branches in Washington D.C., from New York, Maryland and Virginia. There were really a lot of people there. They just really whooped it right up. 6 ROH: That must have been amazing. BG: It was. That was before we got to know Governor George Romney of Michigan. ROH: Tell me a little bit about that. BG: We always liked him. He was always here for something. There were meetings we were involved in all kinds of things. He was the one that came here a lot. The Detroit branch of NAACP was the largest branch. They just had loads of people. They were really active. The NAACP had a meeting in Mississippi—that's where my husband's family was from, Starkville, Mississippi. The meeting was in Jackson. My kids were really little and it was just really hot there. We'd never felt anything like that before. I almost got sick. Jimmy took me back to the hotel, but the people of the Detroit branch said, "As far as we know, the only Governor in the United States who is coming to this meeting is George Romney." They asked, "You know the Romney's don't you?" I said, "Oh, yeah." They asked, "Could you go meet them for us?" We said, "Yes, we can." When the limo pulled up in front of the conference center and he got out he said, "There are my Utah folks." He remembered that we were from Utah. He was so happy to see us because he didn't know what kind of a reception he was going to get. He just hugged and kissed me. He only knew us from when he was coming back and forth home and since we got invited to everything we were always somewhere he was. ROH: Were both of your families' friends or was the relationship primarily with George? BG: It was just with him. ROH: Was he active in helping with the NAACP at that time? 7 BG: I think he was in Michigan. He must have been because they liked him so much. ROH: Tell me about some of the other memorable times in the sixties and seventies with the NAACP. There were a lot of changes going on in the country in the late sixties as well. BG: After the Civil Rights bill passed in 1964, the voting rights act passed in 1965. We still had problems. A lot of people were killed on the court house steps trying to vote in the South. ROH: Was that also happening here? BG: No. As I said, we just had a handful of black folks. Throughout the country there were all kinds of changes. It was just absolute turmoil all over the South and a lot of other places like California. They had fires, riots and all kinds of things. There were a lot of other groups other than NAACP. Urban League didn't have a lot of turmoil with them but there were also the Black Panthers. ROH: I remember them. They used to scare me a little bit, but I was glad that they were out there. BG: I'm sure. We had an NAACP meeting in Los Angeles and I believe it was Hubert Humphrey that came. I can't be sure, but I can remember this Jewish man who was on the board. They're still giving awards in his honor. There was a group that actually broke into the convention hall before Jackie Robinson died and he was standing on the edge of the stage when these guys broke in. He was a big, strong man and stopped them. The Black Panthers came in and just took them right out of there. They had been marching around protecting us. That was some kind of time. 8 ROH: What is it like compared to now? What are your thoughts about the changes that have been made? BG: It's just really, very different. I've served two terms on the board of trustees at the University of Utah. I was involved in a lot of things. I was on the Martin Luther King Commission and the Utah division of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission. That was when Clarence Thomas was head of the Civil Rights Commission. ROH: What kind of projects did you work on in that role? BG: We worked on just about everything. People who worked with the city and the state could file a complaint to the Civil Rights Commission. We did some of those things. ROH: You handled those hearings? BG: Yes. Of course, the Martin Luther King Jr. Commission did everything. ROH: You've seen a lot, that's for sure. BG: Yes. I remember when Coretta King came to Utah. I think that was after he (Martin Luther King Jr.) was assassinated, but I'm not sure. I believe she went to the Unitarian Church that was right on the corner from the University. That's the only time I recall ever seeing her. I know that Martin Luther King Jr. came here once. I didn't see him. I know they had put up a great big billboard that said he was a communist and all that kind of stuff. It seems to me that it was on what used to be Highway 91.We didn't have Highway 89 then. Highway 91 is still there but it just goes through Kaysville and Farmington. They were not anywhere near as big as they are now. Anyway, there were a lot of people offended and I think 9 they might have made them take it down. As I recall, he must have been going to the University of Utah to speak. ROH: Did you get to visit with either of them when they came to Utah? BG: I don't think I ever saw Dr. King, but when Coretta was here I did visit with her. ROH: What was that like? BG: There were a lot of people around but she was very gracious and very pretty. They had so many people, they were all outside. I can remember that. I remember being seated in the choir loft of the church, so I was really close to her. That was after he had died because I can remember giving a donation for the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday. I think that's why she was here. I don't ever remember seeing him. ROH: Are you still involved with the NAACP today? BG: I still belong, but I'm not as active as I once was. I try to go to a few things. I should be able to go to more. Before my husband died we went to banquets and activities. ROH: I know they do a lot on the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday. Are you involved with that at all? BG: After my husband died I had a difficult time. So, I can't say that in these past three years that I've done a lot, but I have been to things. I've been up to Weber to various things. Julian Bond is still President of the board. I got an award for Rosa Parks. ROH: You did? BG: That's what that article was about in that book. 10 ROH: Did you ever have an opportunity to meet her? BG: No. ROH: What was your favorite part of living in Ogden and being a part of the Civil Rights movement here? BG: I never thought about any favorite part. We were just always going. We were always busy. Believe it or not, we got invited to everything. We got invited to the Governor's Ball and we were always going somewhere. If you're involved like we were with the University board, we went to everything they had. I said, "I'll never eat another meatball in my life. I'll never eat another olive." We went to all of those things and all of their athletic games. We went to Weber's games and we were always really busy. ROH: Active in the community too. Is there anything that I might have not touched on that you'd like to share? You're being very modest, I know. BG: I can't think of anything. ROH: Did you ever serve on the City Council in Ogden or any committees? BG: No. I got an YCC award. Actually, they were the YWCA and then they had some kind of a falling out. That's when they became the YCC. I got their award early on when they were still YWCA. They were located near the Eccles Center. Then, they built this other facility and that has been there a really long time. I was a little bit active in that. I was always involved in something. I was pretty active in the League of Women voters. I always had the NAACP youth group. ROH: What did the youth group focus on? What was their purpose? 11 BG: They were being brought up in the tradition. They had a national college chapter and they did all kinds of things. There were those who sat at lunch counters and they did all kinds of things. John Lewis, who is now a congressman, was beaten up over that Pettus Bridge. Some of these things I remember from television. I was the Equal Opportunity Officer at Hill Air Force Base for twenty years. I remember having to go what they call TDY, to Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. This lady who was from here had been with the Clearfield Job Corps center and she heard that there were some people from Hill Air Force Base out there at Maxwell. I looked up and there she was to see me. I had to stay there three weeks. We had a whole bunch of training. She came over to see if there was anybody she knew. She just screamed when she saw me because she had taught at the Clearfield center. She said, "I'm going to take you to see this Pettus Bridge." and all that. That was the highway that went from Montgomery to Selma one way. She took me to where Dr. King's father's church was. In fact, we went to one of the churches. I don't remember whether it was Dr. King's church. I think it was his father's church that she took us to. We went to see that. I thought that was sure interesting. It was something else. There was a man who was in the Nixon administration who came down to speak. His name was Laurence Corb. He's still active in some things. He did the Civil Rights work for Nixon when they were working on Affirmative Action. ROH: What are your thoughts on Affirmative Action? BG: I was definitely in favor of it because there had been so many incidents where people wanted to go to colleges and they couldn't get in because there was just a 12 little bit of segregation and discrimination. That really helped some kids get a really good education. We knew one of the Little Rock Nine, Earnest Green. We were involved in that. I think he is still working for the government. Some of them have passed on, but I saw something in the paper about one of the women not too long ago. ROH: She still gives lectures. BG: Does she? ROH: She does. One of my friends lives in Little Rock and she's part of a book club and they invited her to speak to their book club. It's a pretty big group of ladies. It's probably been about three or four years ago now. She had written a book, either a children's book or a young person's book about her experience. So, she was talking about her book. BG: Daisy Bates and the Little Rock Nine. I can remember it was in a magazine. It was these two military men with fixed bayonets taking this little girl to school. What was that magazine? ROH: I can't remember. It wasn't "Highlights," was it? BG: It was a regular magazine that everybody took. If you saw any of his drawings on back of his magazine you would recognize it. ROH: Norman Rockwell? BG: Norman Rockwell. He had this little girl with the braids going up like that and there she was going to school having to have two military people escort her. ROH: Was it Ruby Bridges? 13 BG: It could have been. I remember that they just weren't going to have it. Eisenhower was President and he had been a general and he didn't take any nonsense. He just said, "Go down there and get those kids in school." ROH: What was it like being in Utah while that was going on in the United States? BG: I can't say it was all that bad because I have warm feelings about my teachers. Not all of them, but some. I remember when I was in high school there were only maybe eight black kids in there. ROH: How could you even imagine that was happening while you have access here in Utah and they did not have access in another part of the country? Did it ever occur to you? BG: No. We never had more than eight kids in the high school in one of Ogden High's largest graduating classes. It might still be the largest. We had problems. There was a group there that all wore green shirts and they were kind of like a gang. They used to hang around in the hall and you had to pass them to get to the girls restroom. I was kind of afraid of them and I was really little. One of the guys that was in that group ended up as a law professor at BYU. He said, "Bettye, don't you ever tell anybody how awfully we behaved." They just meddled. They weren't that much into racism or anything. They were awful but he didn't want me to ever tell anyone and I said, "I'm going to tell everybody under the sun," but I never did. He turned out to be the nicest fellow. We'd go to class reunions and he'd say to my husband, "Jim, when are you going to join the Mormon Church?" He said, "My wife can't even get me to join the Episcopal Church." There was one other on the university board from that group and he didn't want me to say anything 14 about it because he had grown up to be quite a business man and had a lot of money. I never said anything about him to anybody. ROH: Why do you think you stayed so involved and served for all of those years? What kept you going? BG: I don't know. It's just something we got into. My husband was President of the NAACP and I wrote all of his speeches he gave and all those articles. ROH: You wrote a lot of his speeches? BG: All of them. ROH: All of them. Wow. That's impressive. BG: Formal speeches and stuff like that. If he had to just talk to the press, he'd talk to the press. He was cute and had a cute personality so the people liked to interview him. ROH: Are there any words of wisdom or advice that you have to give to young people today? If students at Weber State who are doing research on civil rights and just about the future, is there any kind of message that you would like to leave to the future? BG: They have this group up there, Black Scholars United. This past year and they gave me an award. I don't know how deeply involved they are in that but most of them knew about it because it's a part of the history, the books. I've spoken at Weber a couple of times. I did one on Rosa Parks for one of Adrienne's classes. They were interested and they wanted to know about this back of the bus thing. I had to tell them about the military people that went off to a segregated armed services and how President Truman desegregated it. I had a colonel out at Hill 15 Air Force Base that said he went over in a segregated Air Force and came back in a desegregated one. He was white. He knew a lot about it. I had to tell them about that and how those men came back home and had to sit at the back of the bus. ROH: Were they shocked? BG: I don't know whether they were shocked, but they were sure interested. ROH: Can you imagine putting your life on the line and coming home and being told no you can't sit where you want to? BG: Prisoners of war had more privileges than black veterans. Through the years various presidents have gotten rid of it. I remember this colonel at the base said he remembered that. ROH: Do you have any recollection of segregation as a child? You didn't mention anything as a young girl when you first got to Utah, do you remember there being separate places for blacks and whites? BG: No, just that restaurant thing. I remember we had a junior high school called Central Junior High School at either 24th or 25th and Monroe. There were not a lot of black kids in school but there were a couple of black boys. There was a little mom and pop drug store that sold candy and they got into it with this man about something. Of course, I didn't know anything about it. I went over to get my candy and he wouldn't serve it to me. He said because these two black kids had been over and raised a fuss and I said, "Well, what does that have to do with me?" "Well, I'm just not going to serve any black people anymore." I went right back across the street and told Mr. Junk, the principal, "I don't know why he 16 blamed me because of something that somebody else did." Mr. Junk took me over there and he told him, "You'll serve her or none of the kids will ever come over here again." That's where he got most of his money from. I tell you, he was surprised and so was I because there weren't many people who were willing to do that. I'll never forget him. He was a big fella too. There I was only five feet tall. ROH: Well, you have seen a lot of changes over time. BG: I have. There are other stores. For example, Walgreens got into it for a while. People didn't know what to do here. You could go in there and buy anything you wanted but they didn't want you to sit at the counter and have a soda or a malt. I was old enough to remember that we boycotted that place. They didn't have that many people going in there. They had to shut down. It was a long time before they ever opened up in Ogden again. There are fifty-two units in this condominium complex and I'm the only Black. When we lived in Washington Terrace we bought a really pretty home. My husband just loved it. He had three vegetable gardens, twenty rose bushes, fruit trees and this, that, and the other. It was just really nice and that's where we lived all the time. It was right near the schools and the kids could walk to each one of them. We lived there for a long time. He became ill and was ill for a long time before it dawned on me that he was seriously ill. He was not doing well. My kids, by that time, had graduated from college and had moved away. My youngest daughter Kendall went to Weber. The other two went to the University of Utah. My youngest was daddy's baby and he said, "If you go to Weber instead of the University of Utah, I'll buy you a car," and he did. He bought 17 a car because the Gillespie's have been in the Ford Lincoln Mercury business for years. So, she stayed home and they went away. Pretty soon, Jimmy and I were there all by ourselves. Here I was trying to do all this yard and for a while we had some little deer babies passing through. There were some twin deer we had occasionally. We don't know where they came from or how they got there but it was not far from here. They came running through our backyard and I was trying to get the neighbor boy to come over so he could see them. I kept saying, "T.J., come see the baby deer." He never got over there in time. He was only about three. I look in the paper and there is T.J., he's the quarter back at Fremont High School. I couldn't believe it. When he was three years old, he said, "Mr. Glesky." He couldn't say Gillespie. "Would you come play with me? My sisters won't play with me." ROH: That's so sweet. BG: I thought that was something else. Now, there's a big picture of him on the sports page. ROH: Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. Thank you for being such a great humanitarian too.

Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 39p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 5 September 2012 12 September 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 5 September 2012 12 September 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Dumke, Ezekiel R., an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 5 and 12 September 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. September 12, 2012 Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. ca. 1943 1 Abstract: Ezekiel R. Dumke, Jr. "Zeke" was born June 3, 1923 in Ogden to Dr. E.R. and Edna Dumke. His father was a well-known local physician and his grandfather, E.O. Wattis, was a principal of the Utah Construction Company. Zeke sat down with Rebecca Ory Hernandez in his office in Salt Lake City to share stories about his family, including his parents, his brother, Ed, and his sister, Markey Dumke Healy, who passed away this year. Zeke reflected on his life growing up and attending Polk School in Ogden as well as his time spent in the Navy during World War II in the South Pacific. He attended Weber College for a short time in 1946. He met and married Katherine White, daughter of Ogden's Mayor Rulon and Reva White. Zeke was President of Western States Management and serves on many Boards of Directors and was president of the Dr. Ezekiel R. and Edna W. Dumke Foundation. Zeke and his family named the Ezekiel R. Dumke College of Health Professions, and recently named an endowed professorship in the college. Markey named the Dumke Simulation Laboratory in the Ezekiel R. Dumke College of Health Professions. The family continues to give generously to many local causes as one of the leading philanthropists in Utah. ROH: Today is Wednesday, August 15, 2012 and I am in the office with Zeke Dumke. This is Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University and we are here to talk a little bit about Zeke's history. ZD: Going back on my earliest memorable childhood experiences at Polk School, my grandfather, who was president of the six companies building the Boulder Dam, 2 took me on a personal tour where we stayed in the guest house down in Boulder City. He took me down on the dam site and up on the elevators where they were building the dam and looked in the tunnels. He gave me a map of what they were doing in the way of construction that I took that home and presented it to my class. This would be in 1934 during my fourth grade year. They were so impressed that they then had me present it to the total school assembly. Never having been involved in anything like that before, it was quite a memorable experience in my childhood. ROH: Tell me about your siblings. ZD: I had one older sister, Markey, who died earlier this year and I have a brother, Ed, who is three years younger. ROH: Did you have a group of friends that you would hang out with at Polk School? ZD: Not in particular. There was one fellow that lived a block down whose name was Harry Poe. He went into the Air Force during the war and he has died since. ROH: What were some of the things you did in Ogden as a child? ZD: Our backyard connected to my grandfather's home and the middle of his street split around a park. We used to call it the "watermelon circle." Various neighborhood kids would get together there and we'd play games and other things there. ROH: Were you born in the same house you grew up in? ZD: Yes. It was built by my grandfather. 3 ROH: Was that on Eccles or Van Buren? ZD: Van Buren. Next door was a home also built by my grandfather for my Aunt Ruth. My mom and Aunt Ruth had a double wedding. ROH: We know your dad was a fine physician in town. Did you ever go with your father on any calls that he went on? ZD: His first operational schedule was at seven o'clock. My best visits with him would be as he got ready to go to the hospital. I'd go in and sit on the stool and visit with him. He was a very busy man and sometimes he would take me up to the hospital on his tours. ROH: Did you ever think that you might go into medicine yourself? ZD: I did. I was planning to go into medicine when the war started, but I was called into duty. ROH: What division of the military did you go into? ZD: I graduated with a commission in horse cavalry. My parents had horses and I was raised with horses. At the age of 13 and 14, I was in horse shows and I won quite a few cups. ROH: Was the horse cavalry part of the army? ZD: Yes. By the time I graduated in 1943, the horses were eliminated and the army had gone mechanized. That meant that the cavalry people would go into tanks. I really get Closter phobic, so I didn't want to be in tanks. Just before they called 4 me, I joined the Naval Aviation program. I went on duty in June of 1943, I was a Naval Cadet. ROH: Did you learn how to fly? ZD: Yes, I started off in flight prep and then we had War Training Service (WTS). That was where we learned to fly. After that, I went to Iowa Preflight for my Preflight Training and about that time the navy realized they had many more pilots than they needed. They were not losing them in the Pacific as fast as they thought they would. I was then transferred and I spent the rest of the war as a quartermaster on a submarine chaser. ROH: Where were you? ZD: I was in the South Pacific. We did mainly convoy work between the Marshall Islands and anywhere from Guam to New Guinea to the Western Pacific. ROH: How long did you serve? ZD: Thirty-nine months. ROH: After the Southern Pacific did you come back to Utah? ZD: The war ended in August and the following March I was discharged on March 10, 1946. I went back to Weber College for my first quarter and then went down to University of Utah. ROH: Do you have any memories from that first quarter at Weber that you'd like to share? 5 ZD: Not really. I just came in a little late and the quarter was short and I was just getting acquainted. I really didn't know many people and I went up to our cabin at the Hebgen in the Summer of 1946, then I started at the University of Utah. ROH: Do you remember any of your teachers at Weber College? Did anyone make an impact on your education? ZD: No. It was a very brief quarter. ROH: Where did you spend your summers growing up and as a young man? ZD: My father bought a cabin on the Hebgen Lake in Montana. He had a dear friend by the name of Dr. Ochsner who had started the Ochsner clinic in New Orleans and they used to go fishing in the Summer time. Dr. Ochsner would bring his boys up to Montana. He had three of them that match up with my brother and me. Dr. Ochsner was famous for his crusade against smoking and was probably responsible for the labels on the cigarette packages that congress requires. My mother was a heavy smoker. On a trip back East, she was looking at a diamond bracelet she thought was really pretty and my dad said he would buy it for her if she would quit smoking. She did, just like that. She said, "For how long?" He said, "For at least a year." She said, "What if I start to smoke after that?" He said, "I'd hope you'd have more sense than that." Well, she quit for a year then she started again and died from cancer of the mouth as a result of her smoking. ROH: Do you know how your dad and Dr. Ochsner became friends? 6 ZD: My dad was very involved with upgrading of medical education. He studied in both Berlin and Vienna. Along the way, he met Dr. Ochsner. In 1944, my dad started the Ogden Surgical with Dr. Fister and Dr. Rich. He was one of the three founders. Dr. Ochsner would come each year as a speaker and bring his boys. ROH: Were you ever tempted to go back into medicine after returning from the war? ZD: After being gone for four years, I tried to pick up my classes right where I left off and it was a disaster. I realized that with those kinds of grades, I'd never be able to get into medical school, so I switched to business. I graduated in banking and finance. I had a friend, Jack Craighead whose father had multiple sclerosis. His mother, Madeline Craighead was a very dynamic lady, and she started the MS Society for the state of Utah and got me involved. I was the treasurer and later president. I am listed as a founder and I volunteered there for 14 years. That was my first public service kind of job. ROH: What were some of the things you did in starting that group? ZD: We weren't really interested in research; we were just trying to help patients. Actually at the end of it, my sister moved back to Salt Lake City after a divorce and she was the local representative for MS until she married Pat Healy of Ogden who became the director of the National Municipal League. Their job was to watch what government was doing and to lobby on behalf of the cities. ROH: Meanwhile, where were you living at this point? You studied business at the University of Utah, were you living in Salt Lake? 7 ZD: I never went back to Ogden after I started at the university. I always thought there would be another war and I didn't want to go back to the Navy. The sub chasers were too rough for me. I signed up for ROTC again for another year because I'd already had four years of ROTC. I got commissioned in field artillery. That was not a wise move because shortly after that, the Korean War started and I was listed as an officer without any service time with my commission. So, I was subject to call. I stayed active at the Fort with the 96th Division. Fortunately, we were never called to active duty. When I graduated from the University, there were three things I was interested in and had an opportunity to get a job in. I went to San Francisco to meet with my cousin, Bill Kimball, who had an army reserve job of lining up all the various industries for war duties in the San Francisco area. If there was another war they would know who to call on to do what. He was able to introduce me to people in the areas in which I was interested. When I was in school, Don Bradshaw ran the insurance agency for his father's firm, American Savings and Loan. I worked there and had exposure to casualty insurance and I liked that. So, I decided to go into the casualty insurance business. Through an introduction from my cousin, I met with the Standard Accident Insurance Company of Detroit. They suggested that I go to their training program for six months in Detroit. That's what I did. Right after I got out of the service, a big thing in my life was skiing. One of my ski buddies was Bob White. Once, while skiing in Snowbasin, he went over to talk to this beautiful blonde and I said, "Who's that?" He said, "That was just my 8 sister." Katherine and I met while she was a senior in high school and the following year she went to the University of Utah and we dated during her Freshman year. We didn't date again until her senior year. Her story was that it was to give me time to grow up. If we kept going together we probably never would have married. ROH: You don't think so? ZD: No, we were on different ships. ROH: How did you guys get back together? ZD: I think she realized what a quality person I was, but that's not her story. Anyway, we got together. If you want some humor in this, her dad was the mayor of Ogden at that time. ROH: What was his name? ZD: Rulon White. He was trying to clean up lower 25th Street in those days. He'd been warned that if he didn't let up on things that his daughter would be endangered. The police were keeping a good eye on his home. ROH: Where did he live? ZD: Near the corner of 28th Street and Harrison one down from the corner. I'd take out his daughter and every time I'd drive her home and park in front of his house to get acquainted the police would come up and ask me what I was doing. In August, I knew I was going back to Detroit and I wanted to give her a ring. My father had a lot up on upper 28th Street right by the foothill, so I thought that 9 would be the place I would go and not be bothered while I give her the ring. I had just slipped this ring on her finger and she wanted to turn on the car lights to be able to see it. Little did I know, my father told the police that people were coming up and having beer parties on his lot and asked if they'd keep an eye on it. As the lights turned on, here came the police. I often joke that the Ogden police tried their hardest to keep me from getting engaged, but I was fortunate and finally got it together. ROH: What was Katherine thinking when the police pulled up all these times? ZD: I don't know. Her dad was their boss. ROH: Who was telling him to lay off 25th Street? ZD: It was the mafia figures. They had the gambling, prostitution and all that was going on. ROH: Speaking of 25th Street, did you go out on dates to any of the places on 25th Street at that time? Was it a popular place for you to go? ZD: They used to have a large dance hall just up the hill from Ben Lomond Hotel. My wife and I always enjoyed dancing up there. ROH: Did you go shopping around 25th Street at that time? Was it a destination for activities? ZD: No. We had some very nice stores along Washington Boulevard, like Fred M. Nye and L.R. Samuels. I don't think any of those stores are in existence 10 anymore. The Ben Lomond was a fine hotel then. Commercial Security Bank was there as well. ROH: Was your dad still practicing medicine at this time? ZD: My dad was practicing and he was the first Chief of Staff of the Dee Hospital. He felt they needed more than just one hospital during the war and they saw an opportunity to have the government involved in building another hospital. It just so happened that the man in charge establishing hospitals for the army had been one of his commanding officers in World War I. He was very helpful in getting that put together and my father was the first Chief of Staff for St. Benedict's. ROH: Do you recall him saying anything about the fact that it was a good thing for Ogden to have two hospitals during that time? ZD: I was in the service at that time and had very little communication. ROH: So you were married in 1951. Where did you get married? ZD: April 17, 1951 at the Ogden Country Club. ROH: Tell me a little bit about it. ZD: It was a big wedding. The thing I remember the most is that I had a lot of friends that were really out to decorate my car when I left there because I had been guilty in taking part in sabotaging theirs. Fortunately, since Rulon White was the mayor, I told the Chief of Police that I was going to have problems. He took my car and it was not available until I got ready to leave and the police drove it up to 11 me and I drove off. That really upset my friends, they thought that was illegal politics. ROH: What did you do to your other friends cars? ZD: We used to tie cans on them and use soap to write over the windows and put rice up in the visors and all that kind of stuff. ROH: What did you do after you were married for work? ZD: Alder Wallace had a small agency and they wanted me to take care of it while I built my own agency. I did that for a short time, but the general agent didn't like me being there while building my own business because he was afraid I would walk off with all of the business his current agent had. I started my own agency and this was about the start of the Uranium boom. I saw the opportunity of dealing with some of the Texas people that were coming in for the purpose of drilling for Uranium. Perhaps I could handle the Utah business. I solicited a few of these people and that also got me involved to some degree in the Uranium business. ROH: Did you go to Texas and speak with them or was this in Utah? ZD: Here in Utah. I got quite an education in the drilling and prospecting business. I was given 20 or 30 claims and the operators decided to drill. Suddenly, the cost of drilling my claims was way beyond the money that I had at that time, so I abandoned the prospecting business. That was an early business experience, but I made some good friends and contacts in that area. 12 ROH: Would we know the names of any of those companies today? ZD: None of them are in business. Most of them were partnerships of people that were older than I was and they're gone now. There was a geologist by the name of Cliff Goldsmith in Dallas, Texas that I'm still in touch with. Moab gave me a start on my insurance business and it began to build slowly in Salt Lake City. I still had business contacts and one of my friends was Dick Ruling who was the manager of Hertz rental cars for Utah. It was owned by his father-in-law. Dick and his wife, Nancy, would go camping with us. One day, we decided to go down the San Juan River with a guide by the name of Gaye Stavely. He was excited about the fact that there was going to be a Glen Canyon dam set up on the Arizona line. It would be a very big dam that would back up 180 miles into Utah. He wanted to be a concessionaire. When we sat down and talked to him, it turned out that he wanted us to put up all the money and he would run it and have a big stake in it. We didn't want to do that. Dick had gasoline contacts with Chevron. Chevron was interested in getting the gas business for the new concession on Lake Powell. There was no road into this area and no development. There was a concession right across the Lake called Hall's Crossing that was run by Calvin Black. We got Calvin and some of his mining friends to join us in putting in a bid to the National Park Service. The Park Service felt that since we had Chevron and we had operators that were already working in that area in the mining business and used to tackling difficult contracts, that we would be the ideal people to take on this concession. We called it Bullfrog Marina. 13 The State of Utah started to build a road into the area. The Park Service had already established some buildings with material brought up from Paige, Arizona by boat and created some housing for their park service people. There was a contract for the road. It was during the period of the Vietnam War and money was not very available. We had our Senator, Ted Moss, who had a lot of influence with where the money went for roads and other things. Every time there was a little money left over he would direct it to our road in Utah. The government told us the road would never be done because there would be no funding, but it did get done thanks to Senator Moss. During this period, Calvin Black and the other miners from Blanding, Utah got in a fight over some mining claims. They wanted to have their interest purchased. Dick Ruling and I did that. Then, Calvin Black wanted to have a lot of special considerations that we didn't want to do so we ended up purchasing his interests as well. At that point, we found ourselves building and operating Bullfrog. We had another friend named Lincoln White who was in the jewelry business and liked to have exciting ventures and he joined us. There were three of us that owned the concession at that point. Since my time was more flexible, I ended up doing all the direction and working with the architects and the park service on what buildings we could build and where. I became the General Manager, but I was never hired that way I just ended up doing it. I spent twelve years in that capacity until we sold it to the Del Webb Company. Along the way, our road was completed and we started to have visitors come in. They all needed a place to stay and the only way we could do 14 that was with house trailers. We started a village of house trailers. Utah people were famous for coming down with all of the supplies that we would have liked to sell to them including gasoline. So, business was rather scarce in the early years. We heard of the success that some other operators had on park service lakes with houseboats. We got into the houseboat business and over the years ended up purchasing smaller boats 30 or 40 feet long, but everybody always wanted the biggest boat so we ended up buying boats that were 50 feet long. ROH: Did you rent these boats or were they purchased? ZD: We purchased about 80 houseboats and our clients rented them. There was good income with them. Our boats slept anywhere from 6 to 20 people depending on how our customers packed people in. Many people would sleep in sleeping bags on top of the roof. They liked to be under the open sky. We ended up purchasing a large assortment of boats over the years. We had to laugh because we really had more boats than we had slips or places to put them. It was like a juggler. We always had to have some of them out on the lake at all times in order to accommodate them. People in Utah didn't understand houseboats at first, but we did get a lot of people from California and Colorado. Early on, we had a houseboat delivered to a boat show in Salt Lake City to let people know about it and had a lot of people come through and they still didn't rent them. We had very few people from Utah use our houseboats in the first year or two and then the number grew. ROH: Give me an idea of the year now, what was the first year you rented boats? 15 ZD: About 1966, after the road was finished. Then we increased the number of customers. In the first years, we ended up with maybe only 2,000 people a year. Later, we both had up to 150,000 visitors. The houseboats business was really what made our operation a success. Houseboats had bedrooms and the bigger ones had three bedroom areas plus cots, so they brought a lot of people who bought a lot of supplies and gasoline and so on. Since we were on a lake that was rising up to 100 feet in depth each, it covered a lot of ground that we had to move over to try to keep our marina and our facility operating. At first, we were going to have a marina which floated on steel tanks. An outfit from Oklahoma came in and said, "Don't do that because those tanks won't last." They invited us to come back to Oklahoma City and took us down to Lake Texoma which is on the Texas and Oklahoma border. They showed us a marina that had been built on steel tanks that suffered from electrolysis between the electricity in the boats and the tanks. It would eventually put little pin holes into the tanks and they'd take on water and start to sink. That gave us the lesson of why we didn't want to have steel tanks. Instead, we went to Styrofoam and bought them from Mecco Engineering in Oklahoma. Over the years, we developed 150 slips and they worked out quite well. The park service was responsible for furnishing the roads and the power lines. The problem was that every spring the water would come up and we'd have to move. They didn't have it in the budget to put in new roads or power, so we ended up doing it and would go to the park service and hope to get our money back. Those expenses got to be quite high. We finally moved the whole marina 16 up to a new location. As the water came up and as the lake got bigger, the waves also got bigger. We had to move the whole marina around into the next canyon where we had land to block some of the waves to be able to operate the marina. Between the cost of having to buy all of the boats and marinas, and advancing the money for the roads, parking and getting the power lines down, the government was creating a loss for us of over a half-million dollars. We were trying to get government repayment. In the meantime, Del Webb had purchased Wahweap at the south end of the lake. They had quite a problem because their rented boats would get up to our place which was a hundred miles away or even 80 miles further and break down and it was a losing proposition to try to get service boats to go that far to do the repair work. They were very anxious to try to get either Hall's Crossing or our place, so we made a deal to sell to Del Webb. The interest rates were going up so rather than pay us they agreed to do it in installments at market interest plus two percent. With the interest rates going up, the interest got as high as 22 percent. At 22 percent, we were making more money on having sold it than we would have made by operating. Webb had to sell their casinos in Lake Tahoe and Las Vegas in order to get the money to pay off the banks back East before they could pay us off. I ended up working for Del Webb from the time we sold in 1977 until they paid us off in 1982. They had to pay me and maintain my office in Salt Lake City until we finally settled. I used my share of the payments to build warehouses. 17 At this time, my daughter was married to Scott Thornton, who was a contractor. Because I was doing this building, Scott came to work for me. My son, Zeke III, who had graduated with an MBA from Northwestern, went to work with a company called GATX which was a large internationally leasing company. Most of the tank cars that you see on the railways were leased by GATX as well as airplanes and mining equipment. He's very smart and good with computers and he was hired by GATX in San Francisco. They then transferred him to head the Denver office. He had to service and call on people all the way from Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, North and South Dakota. That was too much traveling, so he left them. He moved back to Salt Lake City and came to work for me to learn about my development business. He learned all I could teach him in six months and I've been hanging on to his shirt tail ever since. ROH: When did he come to work for you? ZD: It would have been about 1984 or 1985. At that point, things started to get more advanced in the office and I'm trying to figure out what it's all about. He came to me one day and said, "Dad, the girls are taking too much time trying to teach you about computers to keep up. Why don't you just tell them what you want to do and let them do it?" That was sort of the end of my computer work. The more advanced they got, the further behind I got. Zeke III got to the point where he wanted to have a paperless office and got everything on the computers. My daughter, Claire, and her future husband, Steve Ryberg, spent summers at the Hebgen Dam in our respective cabins. Our families would go up 18 there every summer. Later, they were looking for land on the Hebgen for their own cabin. They stumbled upon a ranch that was going to be for sale for about 2 million dollars and it included about 2,000 acres on the north lakeside of Hebgen which was private land rather than forestry. It was a little too expensive for them, so Steve and the family decided they'd like to buy it together. I knew that with the land at that price that he could make many times more than what he had in it. The whole family got involved. I could see that if you were going to have various houses there that they'd all want to be on the lake and have a place for their boat. There was a small marina there that they could buy. It wasn't making much money and we bought it cheaply. It got to be a problem because Scott, Betsy's husband, who was also partner in Salt Lake didn't really like being involved in something in Montana. Steve had sort of taken the lead on the marina and Scott was sort of against it. My oldest daughter Betsy, really didn't want to have anything to do with business, so Scott was her voice which then created some problems with our other children. They could all work together, but Scott was an independent speaking for Betsy. So, I was trying to work it out. Their agreement was that they would have to act unanimously on any investments and they did, but Scott and Betsy were going different directions. It became apparent that they either had to buy him out or make an arrangement where the majority ruled which is what we finally worked out. During this whole time, Zeke and Scott separated in the Salt Lake business. Zeke became the sole owner of Western States Management, which 19 had been my company. I arranged to take the balance of what I owned and transfer it to the children. Scott had an arrangement with the Woodbury Company which was a very big in real estate within the Intermountain area. Zeke didn't want to be in the building business. He liked the investment business, as did Scott. We obtained an interest in shopping centers through Scott and Woodbury. We have the Hampton Hotel in Salt Lake City and land in Idaho and Montana. Zeke and Scott run those together. We also built and operated the 721 shopping mall, which was near my office. There's also an office building on that mall. ROH: The one that has the Jimmy John's sandwich shop and San Pan? ZD: Yes. All of that area including the office building and the parking terrace underneath. There was a group building a Hampton, but they weren't able to find any land downtown. So, we donated the land and became partners. We have a similar deal with a Hampton Hotel next to our hotel in Springdale. We gave them the water rights and land and we have 51 percent interest. If we ever ran into a big problem we could either buy their interest or sell our controlling interest. ROH: Were you still involved in your insurance company, or did you abandon that at some point? ZD: I sold it. When I got involved as general manager of Bullfrog Resort, I had an airplane and I kept my office in Salt Lake, but would fly down to Bullfrog. I'd get an area manager to watch things, but I was the general manager. We had to do all our ordering and keep track of everything through my office in Salt Lake. I'd fly back and forth as needed. We'd normally get about 6 to 10 house boats each 20 year, but it would cost a lot of money. With the park service, we weren't able to bring in any new partners without their permission. At one time, my parents were going to put in $10,000, but it took us six months to get them cleared. Until 1972 we'd work with the park service and we considered ourselves partners. We'd operate and build the resort but they owned it. However, anything we built there was covered by possessory interest. That meant that they would recognize the amount of money that we'd put in and if they didn't renew our contract, they had to buy us out. They really didn't like that. They wanted all of our investments to depreciate and then buy our interest even though it may be worth much more. So, that possessory interest was very valuable to us. Any time we increased gas prices or food prices or rentals, we always had to get approval of the government and that always took a few months. It's really hard doing business that way. When I sold the resort I saw this other situation in Springdale where we owned the land and ran our business. That was much better. ROH: A lot more fun. ZD: Yes. I just didn't realize the problems we'd have. In effect, we had the ownership, but the city council and the planning commission were all elected by probably 90 percent Mormons that were the voice in the background was what controlled the zoning down there. We had a lot of problems getting anything done. For instance, they had a regulation against any high-rise building there. You could come in and build a two-story with a peak roof, but you couldn't go any more than that. We were on a slope, so the back of our building could be three 21 stories, but the front was only two stories. You had to determine if the three story was in violation or keep the two story. We had to come back and pile enough dirt on the bottom that they could say that it was a basement plus two stories. It was those kinds of problems that were pretty tough to deal with. Anyway, it's worked out well and we have a Best Western down there that has been very profitable. In addition, we're able to do the next hotel, The Hampton, and have enough room to do one more hotel after that on our land. ROH: Tell me about your spot in Yellowstone. ZD: This is the marina that was next to the ranch the family bought. They have some small cabins that are not furnished. If you've got a sleeping bag and if you don't need an inside toilet, they're not bad. We now have some bigger ones that do have a toilet, but the first ones were just a roof over your head. We also have a nice trailer park. ROH: That keeps the bears out. I think that's important. ZD: That's right, the bears and the bats. My wife is terrified by bats. Robert Redford used to come down and use our place. One time he went out on one of the houseboats and he got a little bite. He said, "It must have been a bat." That got carried nationally stating that Robert Redford had been bit by a bat on a houseboat at Bullfrog. He never knew if it was a bat, and I don't think it was. ROH: Was it good for business that he mentioned that he was in Bullfrog? 22 ZD: It was terrible. We had a lot of people cancel their reservations. We have a lot of stories about what happened there. We had one fellow that went out and just started with a canoe. He had a little outboard engine with a tube going to the gas tank. He didn't get 40 feet off land and somehow the canoe tipped over or swamped and the cord got caught around his ankle and he drowned. When we got the body back up he was dead. We were in Garfield County and the sheriff that had to come and investigate any death claims was in Cain County. He would have to drive through two other counties to get around in Bullfrog. The county line was about three miles north which put Bullfrog in his county. He still had to investigate, so we had to lay the body in the garage overnight until he could get up there. ROH: One question I wanted to ask you was about your children. How many children do you have? ZD: I have four children, three girls and my son Zeke Dumke III. Our oldest daughter, Betsy, and Scott Thornton live up by the Canyons Resort in Snyderville. Betsy is a great horse person and has five horses. She does a lot of riding and is also involved in the community and other things. She's currently the chairman of the National Advisory Committee for the University of Utah. She and Scott are both on the board of Nature Conservancy and she's on the board of KUED. Our daughter, Claire Reyberg, graduated as a nurse and worked with the emergency ward at LDS hospital for a few years until she married Steve and moved to Idaho where he was a forestry ranger. She worked at a small hospital there. Steve was then transferred to Evanston, Wyoming. For about 20 years he was the head 23 ranger there over the Uintah Mountains. He retired two years ago and they moved back to McCall, Idaho. Our son, Zeke, lives here in town. Our youngest, Andrea, is married to Mike Manship, a retired geologist, and they live in Bosman, Montana. They are close to where they can get up to the cabin and we see them in the summer. ROH: Where was he working as a geologist before he retired? ZD: He worked for some mines in South Africa and worked in some geology deals in this country. ROH: Today is Wednesday, September 12, 2012. Today we are going to discuss your family's foundation and how it began and a little bit about the history of your family's involvement in the foundation and philanthropy in Utah. I will let you go ahead and start. ZD: I was married in 1951, six years after I got out of the service and at that time my father and mother had decided with the encouragement of their attorney to start a family foundation, the Dr. Ezekiel R. and Edna Wattis Dumke Foundation. Being the oldest son, they asked me to be president. At first the amount of money was small and my parents added to it every year. ROH: Do you recall the amount that the foundation started with at that time? ZD: It was something like $25,000 and it got up to the point of being $25,000,000 Most of it was General Electric stock which came because of the family connection with Utah Construction. The family stock in Utah Construction 24 became General Electric stock, which grew very fast in the 1990's. In 2000, General Electric had done more in the way of financing was receiving more income out of financing than from other projects and manufacturing. At that point, the market said, "This is really more like a bank than a manufacturing company." We saw General Electric tumble from nearly $60 a share down to $6 a share. That made quite a difference in the amount of gifting we did. It's coming back up. It's about 20 dollars a share now. I served as president of the company for 42 years. My dad died in 1961. His interest was in medical things. He wanted to help support doctors and medical groups with interesting ideas that would make the practicing medicine better. My mother was very interested in art and music. In the early years, those were the directions we went along with the united funds and the symphony and so forth. When I turned 80-years-old I thought I was really getting old, but little did I realize that in ten years that I would still be alive. On my next birthday, I will be 90. The directors at that time were my sister's daughter and my brother had some children that were participating and I had some children that participated. My brother ended up feeling that he was not getting as much from the Dumke Foundation as he would have liked in his area. He had a son that lived in California that didn't participate at all and he thought that was bad and that it would be better if he could get his third of the foundation and operate separately so he could divide it up among requests of his children and not be bothered with what we were doing. The other children enjoyed working together and going out on visits to various groups that we were making gifts to. Brother Ed wanted to be 25 able to assign a certain amount to each of his children and that person could make gifts to anything that was legally qualified to receive it. They don't have the meetings we do and make visits to the various groups that we're giving to. ROH: Did he name his foundation something different? ZD: It is called the Dumke Wattis Foundation. He has a group in Idaho that operates the Idaho foundations that do all the work. His foundation directors tell them how they want to gift the money. Whereas, we have meetings twice a year and we go on site visits. We are much more involved in the working of the foundation than his family. My sister's daughter Nancy Swanfelder is on our foundation and has her own foundation dealing with children. My sister also has a son, but he's never been involved in the foundation. That's the way it's been working up to this day. My second daughter, Claire, is the president of the foundation. ROH: I've met Claire on several occasions and she is delightful. ZD: Claire graduated as a nurse from the university and worked in the trauma unit of Intermountain Healthcare, so she's very wise as to medical needs and what's good. We got involved with Weber because they needed some money. The family made some gifts and they named the Health Science building for my dad. ROH: Yes, the Ezekiel R. Dumke College of Health Professions. ZD: Claire would talk to Weber and ask what he really needed that will make a difference. This last year he said, "What we really need to do is get into endowment chairs." The University of Utah has been very active in that and very 26 successful. Weber didn't have any of those and would really like to get started that way. At this time, because of the drop of our General Electric stock, we only give about $500,000 a year and in the meantime, presidential endowments have gone up to a million and a half. That seemingly was way out of our reach. My daughter Andrea, Claire and Nancy got together and said, "You know, if this is what they really want and it's worthwhile let's just say that we're not making any other gifts and we will concentrate on the endowment to Weber College for three years. So, that's what they are doing. ROH: That's incredible, thank you. ZD: We made a substantial gift this year and it will take three more years before we can meet that goal. ROH: That will make a huge difference in the quality of the faculty too. ZD: In the meantime, they decided that Nancy had served her time as president, Claire had served her time, and it was time for Andrea to step up and be the president. I think they all felt great about our grant in the medical field and for Weber State. My dad was very much a Weber and Ogden man and he felt that University of Utah and the colleges down south were getting more than their share so he was always pulling for Weber. When he first came to Ogden in his early years, he was the first chief of staff for the Dee Hospital and for the St. Benedict's Hospital. He was real Ogden man. 27 Our other foundation was started by Kay and Zeke in about 1990 and is called the Kay Foundation. It makes it easier than to try and stumble with two names. My wife has been president for a number of years. ROH: What was the focus of giving for the Kay Foundation? ZD: The focus was pretty much the same type of thing as we had in the Doctor Foundation. My wife was very interested in the arts and served at the museum of fine arts at the university. I was very interested in many things and the Red Butte Gardens. When I was working at Bullfrog, we were trying to plant trees and get a planting schedule. We had a man from the university on the Red Butte board by the name of Miles Layburn who was very knowledgeable and drew up our plans. Every time we'd submit the plans to the park service in San Francisco they'd say, "This won't work because this tree or that tree won't grow in that particular zone. At the university, Miles had seen these trees growing in Salt Lake City. Finally, after being turned down on two submissions, I told the park service, "Why don't you decide on the trees that you think will grow here?" Of course, they were not in the designing business, so very little was done in our landscaping. Miles was my introduction to Red Butte, where I served for thirty years. As the employees came in we needed trailers for about one hundred people. We needed not only trailers for our employees, but a school for their children and a store so they could all buy food. All of these needs had to be met in the first years of operations. We needed something that generated more 28 income so we got houseboats. I think I told you about that. We ended up having 75 houseboats, but that was both good and bad because every year, business was so good that we'd order half a dozen or a dozen houseboats. We started out with small, 34 foot houseboats, but everybody wanted the bigger ones. We kept ordering bigger ones and that brought in more people and more repair and that type of thing. The cost of all of these things got to be quite a problem because in order to get more money into the company, we had to clear it with the park service. I remember my parents were going to put in a small amount like $10,000 and it took us six months to get them cleared to put in the money. Obviously, we'd have houseboats coming down and we couldn't wait for 6 months to pay for them. We ran into a lot of problems that way. They also had to approve the rates that we charged on gasoline and housing. Del Webb had purchased the properties on the south part of the lake and it became a very difficult thing for them to service boats that broke down where we were because we were 100 miles away. They wanted to buy Bullfrog and we decided to sell it to them. In paying us off, I had two other partners, Dick Ruling who was president of Bullfrog and Lincoln White, who was in the jewelry business. They were to pay us off over a short period of years. So, we sold to Del Webb and they ran into trouble selling they completed their hotel in Atlantic City and that was right at the time of a big financial problem. They had to pay us on what they owed us for Bullfrog at an interest of two percent of a prime and prime got up to be 20 percent. So, the 22 percent we were making on what they were having to pay us was better than operating the company. So, that did give me 29 money to do other things with and I increased the funding for the Kay foundation and also ended up building warehouses and making real estate investments. ROH: When you started, what were some of the things you were supporting? ZD: We would look at almost any kind of foundation, but we had criteria. We wouldn't do any bricks and mortars. We didn't want to make a $10,000 gift into a 10 or 20 million dollar building because it didn't show anything. However, if we were interested in it, the directors could say, "If you've got a computer room or something inside, we can fund there." ROH: I'm assuming you were supporting the University of Utah and what about others? ZD: We don't support things that have more than 50 percent come from government because there were lots of public schools and there were too many of those. Libraries were the same way. When our small foundation got to the point where we got almost a hundred requests it got to be a lot of work. We had to find a way to cut it down. The way we did that was tightening up our criteria. We don't give to individuals, or small groups or scholarships or anything with an individual involved. We just had to decide what we could do and do it better. We closed on our geographical and said we are for the intermountain. We stretched that a little bit because we had family in Idaho and Montana and we consider that as intermountain. We require that organizations write in and ask for the amount they need and why. We'd pass that to all of the directors and they would say whether or not they were interested in hearing more about it. We'd take a vote from our directors 30 and if they had three or more votes out of our board, we'd tell them to submit a request. They can get the request off the computer to fill it in and those requests we'd send back out to directors and they were much more detailed. From there we'd take the ones that were the most popular and try to fit them within our budget. Looking at the variety of people on board, it was no surprise that we had a variety of things that we ended up clearing. We were all sensitive to what the other person wanted. In the early days, as I got into Red Butte Gardens, my mother made some gifts and our foundation made some gifts and after that I felt a little uncomfortable as president trying to submit requests to the foundation of which I was president. My wife and I did most of the funding for Red Butte Gardens on a personal basis. Having got into the foundation business, I was in rotary and we decided to have a foundation for rotary. Clayton Williams was president and he made me the first president of the Salt Lake Rotary Foundation. Our goal was to accumulate at least a million dollars to fund our work. Every year, the members put in about 5 dollars apiece each month for the foundation. That gave us about $40,000 dollars that we would give back to the rotary club for donations. ROH: Are you still active in rotary? ZD: Yes, I am. I joined the rotary in about 1978. It had a deal that once you've been in 20 years and after you're 80 years old, you can belong on a retired basis. We try to get 60 percent attendance for members that are in rotary, but after you 31 reach that qualification you don't have to pay for any luncheons that you don't attend. In 1994, I was president of rotary. That was the same year that I became president of Red Butte Gardens and president of the Alta Club. Later, I was invited to be on the hospital board at the University of Utah. It became apparent to me that academia was the political strength on the lower campus. It didn't want to see the university put any more money than they had to into the hospital. I thought that was wrong because we were the organization that was seeing the most people and we got to the point where we had more employees between the doctors and the nurses, so we decided to start the Health Science Council to try to get influential people to help us with our appeal for more months. I suggested that we start our own foundation. We were going to name it the University of Utah Hospital Foundation. The state said we can't put the name Utah in there if the state doesn't own it. So, we left Utah out. At the University of Utah, we have a special group like at the Eccles Foundation that make big gifts and the university didn't want to have too many individual departments approach the Eccles Foundation and have them say, "We have too many requests from the university and we don't like that. The university decides who can apply and holds it to about five and that's what the Hospital Foundation works on." We seldom were at a point where we could approach the forbidden list. The Dumke Foundation was on that list also. The University Hospital Foundation is the name I chose and we picked a public board. We could 32 then go out and start to approach other people for our needs within the health sciences and the hospital. It's turned out to be quite successful. There were some real bumps along the road when President Smith came in. It turned out that when he became president of the university in North Carolina, he replaced the president that got fired for using their hospital foundation funds for travel funds and as a slush bucket. So, President Smith was very sensitive about this foundation which was a separate corporation that he didn't control. We went through a couple of years where he wanted to change our articles and bylaws to the point that we could not operate as a separate foundation, but as we brought in new directors, he'd have to give the okay. They would be his directors, under his control and to me that was no better than the university doing it themselves. He moved on before the problem had to be settled and the foundation is still operating the way it used to do it. It is working under the health sciences and they're paying the payroll of all the people involved. We work under Steve Warner who was the development person for the health science. Obviously, we're very much a university facility even though we're a separate corporation. We have a separate board and we can do what we want. However, if Steve Warner tells us that we can't do it then we're not going to do it, but we are operating like a foundation. 33 ROH: What is your favorite avenue of giving? What appeals to you most? Is it still the gardens or is there another area? Obviously, you've done a tremendous amount for healthcare. ZD: My greatest interest probably remains in healthcare. My mother financed the kidney building. She had a friend up in Ogden that asked her why she didn't make gifts to the University of Utah. She was furious because she'd been very active, but my dad always wanted it to be anonymous. She went to the University and said, "I want to finance a building. They had several buildings that they were waiting to build and the kidney one was connected with medicine, so she said, "I'll take it." That's the Dumke kidney building there. Recently, they decided that they needed that room for another building. So they are going to tear it down. They told us this a couple of years ago, so my brother and sister and I gave a major gift to the health building. It is named after my mother and father. We've been very active with the women's groups such as the gymnastics team. They won a couple of nationals and their coach, Greg Marsden said, "We are starting to lose some really key prospects because they're looking at our old facilities for gymnastics. Other colleges want to get into gymnastics and have new buildings for it, so that's where the students are going. We need a new building." So, Kay and I financed it and we have the Dumke building for Utah girls. We had a soccer field that we needed for the girls. They had the field, but there was no place for anyone to sit, so we put in the bleachers there. The girls 34 also needed a baseball field. We became major donors for that. I knew that Red Butte Gardens couldn't continue to build gardens without building income. The amount that people would pay for admission was not enough to support the gardens. We needed something with big income, which was the concert center. So, we did that and we said, "We don't think it's right to have this be the Dumke musical whatever, it should be Red Butte Concert Center," and that is the name. ROH: I think a lot of people go to Red Butte to see that concert series. ZD: They get about 2500 people at a time. My sister wanted to do something out there and it took us a couple of years to get it going. They have an area that's very popular for people to get married, with the waterfall in the background and the rose garden. The only problem was there were no public bathrooms and they needed a place if it was windy or rainy where the brides could change their clothes. Also, if it rained, they needed to accommodate 100 people in a sheltered area. My sister donated about half of the cost for that. They hope to have it finished in May of 2012. However, my sister died so she won't be able to enjoy it. ROH: What is your inspiration for being so philanthropic and generous? ZD: My grandfather and his brothers worked with and uncle and built a railroad from Portland to Astoria and they had some financial and the Cory Brothers went broke. My grandfather and his brothers were on their own. They started the Utah Construction and needed some money, so they went to David Eccles, who involved the Dees and some of the others. He gave them funding for a half interest in the company in 1903. My grandfather, E.O. Wattis, ran the jobs and 35 his brother, W.H. Wattis, was president. They did well and by 1933, my grandfather was president of six companies building the Boulder Dam. He knew when he died, he didn't want to have his stock split up between his six surviving children so he set up a trust leaving the stock income to his children, but the stock to his grandchildren. That's been very helpful for me. I had to come up with stock for loans as Bullfrog was growing and I had some assets to work with. Originally, with my estate planning, inheritance taxes and children gift taxes would be high on the E.O. Wattis Trust. I had the right to say, "I don't want that," and I was able to pass my grandfather's grant down to my children after I die. They've already changed the law so we won't be able to do that again, but I already passed the residual down and I still have the income. The stock was such an advantage to me in having an asset to work with and one of the reasons I've been able to do other investments and donations. These benefits have been passed on down to me and my brothers, sisters and cousins. I had another aunt that died and had no children, so she wanted to do what her father did so she passed her estate on to the nine nieces and nephews. My father played football in high school and worked in harvesting and for a mining company in Butte. He went to see his brother in Denver who said, "You need to go on to college." He didn't have assets, but he was a very good football player and they got him a scholarship to the University of Denver. After that, he wanted to become a doctor and his coach called Northwestern and got him admitted on a scholarship. He was working and going to school and playing football and that was too much. He was going to have to drop out, but he had an 36 aunt who loaned him the funds to get through school. He felt very indebted to people who would do that. My father gave my grandparents all their medical needs and other care at no charge. The family wanted to repay him after they died. He wouldn't take cash, but let the E.O.Wattis family fund a trust fund to finance young doctors that were having financial problems like he had when he was going to Northwestern. If they were already in school and they had a critical situation come up, he would loan them the money to graduate. He financed 28 different doctors getting through their school. Only one did not repay their loan. When he died, he left all of those "I owe you's" and the money that had been accumulated to the University of Utah. They have a similar trust up there. In each case, all of these students had been supported by somebody that cared enough to make a loan. ROH: Your foundations have a lot of areas from which to choose. You mentioned that you get over a hundred solicitations in a year. When did you decide to continue giving to Weber State University? ZD: The family funded the Doctor Dumke Health Science Operation and continues to be interested in Weber. It was through the Doctor Foundation that we gave the endowment. I don't get the credit for that because I stepped down as president and my daughter, Claire, was president and she and recommended that we should do something meaningful. She said, "We can do it by making this endowment which is roughly three years of income to the Doctor Foundation." 37 She gets the credit, not me. Claire was president. We all voted for it, but it was Claire's recommendation. ROH: Were you included in that group. ZD: Yes, I was included. ROH: I have to say thank you very much. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention about your activities? ZD: Flying was always something important that I learned to do while I was in the Naval Aviation Program. It came in very handy when we got the concession on Lake Powell because I was more flexible with my insurance business and could fly back and forth, even before we had a road. I was always very interested in the state of Utah and the lay of the land and the scenic wonders. I used my airplane for a lot of exploring. One of the important things in our family was that every year we took camping trips. Instead of going to the mountains where there are mosquitos and all, we normally go down to the desert. There are very few people down there and we all love the desert and we explore all sorts of exciting places. As we see our children with their children, they are doing the same thing. They like the camping. They do it with a little more style than we used to. We used to go out and didn't even have a tent. I think we all really appreciated it and that came out of my parents. They love camping and did it with us and it has affected our lives. 38 ROH: You know that President F. Ann Milner is stepping down as president soon and I didn't know if you might have a message for her or a note to say on her behalf. ZD: She called me and I had a very nice long talk with her. ROH: Glad to hear that. Is there anything else that you'd like to say in wrapping up? ZD: My understanding was that when George Eccles died, his biggest asset was Utah International converted to General Electric stock. Mariner Eccles had been president of Utah Construction and his foundation was mostly General Electric. As you look around the community you see the Dee's, the Browning's, and the Eccle's. I think it's interesting to see the spread of that and very few people know how far that Utah International stock has gone in things that were done. The Kimball Arts center was General Electric stock that came down through Utah. A number of us that have done things, but we shouldn't really get the first credit. It came from our family and Utah stock. ROH: I appreciate that you have taken this time to visit and share your story and your family's history. We've all benefitted from your success in business and your generosity, so we wanted to thank you. ZD: I always feel fortunate that we can do it. While I've run some successful businesses, it's really gone back to the fact that I had assets to start with to make them grow. Had I not had assets to work with, it would have been a different story. So, I feel very grateful for the things that came before me and I want to help some of those that will come after me. ROH: Thank you so much for your time, Zeke. I really appreciate it. 39 ZD: Thank you.

M. Diane Krantz, April 4, 2014 ; The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ; The following is an interview with Dr. Diane Krantz conducted on April 4, 2014 by Ruby Licona. Dr. Krantz discusses her early life and her career at Weber State University from 1995 to 2011. ; 39p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program M. Diane Krantz Interviewed by Ruby Licona 4 April 2014 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah M. Diane Krantz Interviewed by Ruby Licona 4 April 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Krantz, Diane., an oral history by Ruby Licona, 4 April 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii M. Diane Krantz April 4, 2014 Abstract: The following is an interview with Dr. Diane Krantz conducted on April 4, 2014 by Ruby Licona. Dr. Krantz discusses her early life and her career at Weber State University from 1995 to 2011. RL: Today is April 4, 2014. I'm Ruby Licona from the Stewart Library at Weber State University. Also present is Stacie Gallagher, our video technician. We are speaking with Dr. Diane Krantz, who came to Weber State in 1995, retired just a couple of years ago and is never still for a moment. Every time I encounter her she's got plans for one activity or another, so she's not a shy retiring kind of person, she is living her life to the fullest. Good morning, Diane, and thank you for coming in to talk with us. DK: Good morning, Ruby, thank you for the privilege of donating my thoughts to the library. RL: Well, we are anxious to learn about you. To that effort, why don't you start out telling us a little bit about your origins and some of the things with which you were involved prior to coming to Weber State? You did not come here straight out of—well, you came straight out of your Ph.D., but that was a few years following your bachelor's degree. So, why don't you talk to us a little bit about that? DK: Okay. Well, I was born in a small coal town in Pennsylvania called Carbondale. I was a very devout Catholic and always wanted to be a religious woman, so when I graduated from high school, I entered a convent that was in the town where I 1 was living. I got a bachelor's degree in mathematics from St. Louis University, ultimately, and was credentialed to teach math. I taught elementary school math for three years and then went on to high school math and got my master's in teaching mathematics from Fairfield University. I taught high school mathematics for 17 years. RL: That was at Fairfield University in Connecticut? DK: Yes. RL: So, how did you get from St. Louis to Connecticut? DK: Well, actually, I started in Pennsylvania. We moved to Connecticut and then after I had taken my vows, I was transferred from the convent in Connecticut to St. Louis. Actually, my first foray there in higher education was a sister's college called Mirallac College. It was for religious women. I was there for a year, but there program was so convoluted; it would have taken me five more years after my Associate of Arts degree to get my bachelor's. So, the Provincial and I decided I would go to St. Louis University. Then I taught for three years in the elementary school in St. Louis and was transferred back to the high school in Connecticut to teach there. Math teachers, even in the convent, are at a premium especially because a lot of sisters did not go directly on for their degrees. They got them part-time. Getting a math degree that way could take 12 or 13 years. I was going full-time, so I managed to get mine in a reasonable amount of time. I got a National Science Foundation grant, so most of my master's degree was free for me and the convent. So, that was nice. I taught many years, as I said, in the high school and religious life somewhat changed and I began to—a lot of 2 women left religious life during those following years as the church became—as their thinking became more modern. I always thought I was in it for the long haul, but I began to realize at one point that I had become somewhat like my mother in the sense of not knowing my own mind after a while. I was following superiors and I wasn't thinking for myself anymore. I didn't know, actually, what I wanted. At that point, I decided that I would at least try life outside the convent. So, when I was in my early 40's, I had permission to live outside the convent for two years and at that point I had been transferred to California and taught part-time in an elementary school while I looked into attending the University of California at Davis. I had requested to get a Ph.D., but that wasn't common at that time among the sisters, so I was refused for that. I went on—I was enrolled in the master's program. I spent two years and I think most people that knew me from the convent assumed that I was enough of a flake that I would never manage in the outside world. But, it turned out that I had my father's sense of economics, so I did very well, actually. By that time, I had decided that it was time for me to try a new direction in life. So, I was enrolled in the English program at U.C. Davis and I made a formal request for dispensation from my vows and received it. I then went on to get a Ph.D. at the University of California at Davis. RL: So, you got relieved of your vows in, what, the late 80's? DK: Yeah, it would have been about 1985 or 1986. A Ph.D. would take seven years at U.C. Davis if you didn't have—well, I didn't even have a bachelor's degree in English, so that was a little bit more of a challenge. At any rate, I got a Regents Fellowship my first year there and then forgot to apply for it the second year. I 3 ended up with fellowships in teaching, but the University of California system was very generous at that time and it had a lot of money, so they actually paid me what I considered a full salary, although, my colleagues in the English Ph.D. program were not doing quite as well because they were more used to being on their own and spending money as they wished. RL: They hadn't been in the religious life. DK: They had not been living a vow of poverty, right. After a year, while I was still debating, I said, "What would be the one thing I would be sorry for if I went back in the convent? What would I be sorry not to have done?" So, I took a trip to Europe—a bus trip to Europe. It was one of those bus trips where, "It's Tuesday, this must be Belgium." And it was literally like that. You got up in the morning and it was Belgium and you were going to go back on the bus and over to Holland all that day and then you'd spend a couple of days in Holland and then go on to the Rhine. That was very exciting. I had thought if I had a chance to go back to Europe, it would be nice to have an overview of it, so that's why I went on that particular trip. I was still a little bit behind for my doctorate. My father died in the meantime. My mother died three weeks before I left the convent, so that was a little traumatic because, a) I wasn't expecting it and, b) that her timing was impeccable to make me feel guilty. I failed the exams I took right after my father's death, so they gave me another chance. So, I did get through my exams and my defense of my dissertation. Then I realized I couldn't finish the dissertation on time and they would cut off my teaching pay, but there was an opportunity to go 4 to Germany on an exchange and that would be fully funded—by the Germans, actually. Because I was, shall we say, older, and also had several master's degrees they paid me through the nose in Germany. So, I was very well off in Germany. RL: Did you go to Germany to teach? DK: I went to Germany on an exchange of doctoral students to teach at the University of Mainz. So I lived in Mainz and traveled again through parts of Europe. I enjoyed my time there and taught six classes the first semester and seven the next, but German classes are much different than American classes as I learned. Students basically don't hand in anything until the end or they take three Claysure tests if they're not on that type of a schedule. It was probably less work with the six classes there than with my high school teaching, so it worked out very well for touring. After I came back from Germany, about a month before I had to hand in my dissertation, I had some work on graphics to do because I hadn't had a Mac computer there. I got my three signatures and the Ph.D. and then had a post doc at U.C. Davis for a year and applied for jobs. I got four responses. I was much more careful the second time I applied than the first time I applied. The first time, in Germany, I sent out a hundred applications and I wasn't specific at all. The second time when I was back in the United States, I said, "I'm going to research these universities." I think I applied to four and I got responses from two. One was Weber State and the other was the University of Puerto Rico at Mayaguez. The only thing that really attracted me there was that they had one of the large 5 radio telescopes at Arecibo, I think it is. At any rate, it wasn't too far from Arecibo. But, I don't speak Spanish. I was worried that the cultural differences, not for me, but the differences between the rich and the poor there would be a source of constant pain to me. The other thing, of course, was that by this time with both parents dead, my siblings were living across the country. One was in Connecticut, one in Iowa and one in Portland, Oregon. So, I would never get any visits if I stayed in Puerto Rico because it would have been quite a long trip for them. I decided that I would be happier all around accepting the job at Weber. When I came to Weber, I was really impressed with the English people who met me. Tom Burton was my predecessor in the English Department and he met me at the airport, shepherded me into Ogden and was very sweet, very kind, and very helpful. Then, I went through the interview process and was very impressed with the committee, with their friendliness, their warmth and their welcoming—also by the efficiency of the process, because I had been waiting for months to hear from Puerto Rico whether I was being offered the job or not. At this point, I was sort of disappointed that they had taken so long, but also it just seemed like a better fit to come to Weber State. So, I mean, it was largely the charm of the English Department people that I met that drew me here. RL: Can you remember who was on your search committee? DK: Well, there was Tom Burton. Levi Peterson was Chair at the time. Sally Shigley was on the search committee. John Schwiebert may have been on the search committee and Michael Wutz might have been, but I'm not sure. These later became close friends. That's as much as I remember. I remember Sally because 6 I was going to teach one of her classes—her Renaissance class—as part of my interview process. She had sent me information and I had prepared to teach something about George Herbert, a 17th Century poet. So, I remembered her of course and I met her on the committee. After that it becomes a little bit of a blur in the nervous tension one feels when one's life is basically hanging in the balance. RL: Yeah, you get a lot of really big butterflies, don't you? DK: Right. Actually, the teaching went well because part of it was that I—having taught so much in the years previously and when students were not always being very cooperative. I had also taught at U.C. Davis as well as at Mainz, so I had a lot of teaching experience behind me. So, I had kind of a dynamic in the classroom that I wanted to set up, and Sally had prepared her students very well to be kind to me, I think. So, the class went just very well, and that made it a much more positive experience than if I'd kind of lost it in the classroom, so I enjoyed that. RL: So, your first impressions, of course, were formed by the search committee and by the department. When you got here, having taught in—I'm not certain the size of U.C. Davis, but I know U.C. Berkeley was tremendous. Did you notice a difference in the students when you finally got here? DK: I think I noticed a larger range in the students. I had bright students. I had students who were very capable and well-prepared at Weber State, but I also seemed to have a number of students who were struggling from the time that they got into my classroom. So, that was a difference because the students at 7 U.C. Davis tended to be more homogeneous. They weren't all happy to be there. They weren't all happy with their majors, etc.—I had several encounters with students who were telling me how they had been forced to major in science rather than in English, which was their love. The parents, I think, put a lot more pressure on the students at U.C. Davis also, which you could say, "It's the cost," except, it wasn't the cost. At that point, the price of U.C. Davis was very low, but— RL: Well, I think there's probably a difference in all of the U.C. campuses. They have very high admissions standards as far as GPA's and background and SAT scores and so forth. Here at Weber, with open enrollment— DK: Right. It wasn't quite open at the time. Some of my English colleagues were very miffed at that because I think Bob Smith had put some limitations on admissions, which didn't seem high to me, but there were a few things in place. That changed as I stayed here, but it's also possible that some of the students as U.C. Davis would not have been as motivated as students at Weber State in the sense that their parents may have been paying for their education. Whereas here—and that was I think the biggest shock—to find so many of the students were working full-time. That was my biggest surprise at Weber State. RL: The nontraditional aspect of it. So many of them come back from a mission and get married and are supporting at least a spouse if not children. That makes a big difference. DK: Yes, it did. One had to be conscious of that in terms of how much time students were able to put into their studies. I always kept my standards fairly high, but 8 then that had been my problem since I was teaching first grade. I was always like one year beyond what the students were capable of until I got to the master's program here, and at that point we all came together as to where I expected them to be and where they were. That was a very happy experience. I was very impressed here with a lot of the women students who were very very bright and very well read and just seemed capable of handling a ton of things at the same time. That was impressive. At U.C. Davis, it would probably be just the student and her books. RL: Well, and also, I think the difference in having the commuter campus as opposed to students living on campus or right close by, does make a difference too. Now, you'd been teaching in earlier years, probably in Catholic schools, and having been in a religious background, what was your reaction to coming to Utah to a totally different religious environment or approach to religion? What were your impressions? DK: Well, of course, the first thing I did was draw kind of a parallel between my own times in Catholic school as a very devout young person with the students here. The one annoying part of it was that the students, oftentimes, are much narrower in their approach. Not more narrow than conservative Catholics, certainly, at all, but much more narrow in their thinking than, for instance, the students at U.C. Davis. I was teaching a class in persuasion and I drew up a list of topics that I wanted the students to argue and the students invariably chose positions diametrically opposite to what I would argue. Of course, if they argued well they got an 'A' on the papers, but it began to dawn on me that this was, politically, the 9 state was very much the opposite of what I had left in California, in the north of California. Because as someone once pointed out to me, Southern California is so conservative that they've had mostly Republican governors, so, but that wasn't true the year I was in in Davis. So, it was the political rather than the religious element that I found challenging when I taught my students. RL: And yet that's surprising because Ogden is fairly different from the rest of the state. DK: Well, some people have called Weber "little BYU," so there was, at least historically, a group of very conservative men who were leading the university. Now, that's actually changed as I've been here. It's been wonderful to see women assume leading roles at the university, so at one point I had a—and this was exciting for me—a woman president, a woman Dean, and a woman Department Chair. It spoke well for Weber's openness to women and to their advancement. I think that colored life to a certain extent on the campus. One incident that occurred in English was that a student was complaining—I guess to a teacher, it wasn't to me. The teacher told him he should talk to the Chair because that would be his right, so he went to the Chair and I guess he was very disgruntled to find out that there was a woman Chair. She said, "Well, you can go on up, but the Provost, the Dean, and the President are all women also." It sort of gave him a little more perspective on what women's roles were, at least at this university. Not necessarily what he thought women's roles would be. This was a person from one of the Middle Eastern 10 countries, so, of course, the culture that he was from would have suggested that women didn't belong in such roles. He got his eyes opened very quickly. RL: But I think one of the things that we've been very lucky about is that women who have served in these capacities are so capable and have been so successful in carrying out their assignments and their missions. DK: Absolutely. RL: That's become more and more common in Arts and Humanities and other areas at the University too. Of course, President Milner, who just stepped down not that long ago, had that love and respect of everyone in the legislature and all of the people in higher education and so forth. I think she has set a really high standard that other women will be striving to reach. DK: And men. I mean, basically, because her political acuity was so great she constantly kept the legislators on our side despite the economic problems of the times, and Weber has continued to grow from this enormously. So, of course, it says a lot for Weber. RL: She gained a lot of respect for the institution. Weber had always been a little brother kind of place. I think it's risen in people's viewpoints. DK: Well, in fact, I've been very impressed at times reading just a little bit in the past five years about some nationally known figures from Weber and people certainly making their mark in our culture and in the American culture as a whole. Of course, I have to say that when I told my mentors at U.C. Davis that I was coming to Weber State, their first reaction was, "Oh, the winners of the Big Sky 11 conference." I said, "Well, I had never heard of Weber State, but the men at U.C. Davis certainly were very respectful." RL: That was right after the time that I think they had beat out both North Carolina and Michigan in the NCAA. First round they knocked them flat on their backsides. DK: Great. Yes. RL: I mean, with me, people would say, "Weber State? You came here from Weber State? Never heard of it." Then, all of sudden, they got the reports and it was, "Ruby, is that your Weber State?" It made quite an impression. As you say, it was not necessarily women, but the men that—well at least they didn't say, "Why?" or "Where in the world is that?" It gave a little bit of information to hang things on. It sounds like you were happy with the choice of coming here. DK: I was very happy. One of the things I've always appreciated about Weber is its people, I think of my department—and my department is very, very large and very diverse and tends to be like herding cats to a certain extent. People could have sticking points about things that you thought, "Well, this will be just a little conversation," and all of a sudden there's a big uproar. Yet, I always felt a kind of warmth, a kind of encouragement from my colleagues all through my career. I never felt, as I think often happens at large research schools, like I was competing in order to get tenure, in order to get promotion and in order to get various and sundry privileges that went with my job. The students also are very warm and very accepting of a lot of different things. Not necessarily different ideas, depending on which students you're talking about. It's quite possible that, of course, the composition classes are where I would hit this type of negative 12 response and that's because I would have students from across the campus, and I think some other departments may be a little bit more rigid in their thinking than the arts and humanities and even—well, not even, but the social sciences also would be in how they think about issues and how they think about people. I always felt like this—I always felt very comfortable around and accepted by both the faculty and the students. RL: You mentioned Tom Burton and Levi Peterson who were highly respected and very accomplished in their areas. Did they or any others—I realize you came here as an older person, but did anyone work in the capacity of a mentor for you? DK: I was thinking about that question because we didn't have a formal mentorship at the time in English or, as far as I know, across campus. But, Sally, Judy Elsley, and Priti Kumar included me in their lunch sessions together and I think that was a kind of mentoring. That was in my first maybe five years where we met all the time. We met on a regular basis, and they were very helpful about different things. Levi, of course, kept an eye on people. He would give you hints about things. Then, when I became Women's Studies Coordinator, which was in, I believe, my third year, that's its own little story, but Gloria Wurst had been coordinator the year before, and she very much took me under her wing in terms of how to go about taking care of the program. RL: The program was fairly new when you got here. DK: Well, yes. 13 RL: In 1990 or 1991, and I think Gloria was probably the second director. She was very invested in it and remains so even now. DK: Yes. Literally invested. RL: The three women that you mentioned that included you in their lunches, they were highly involved with the women's program in the early days. So, again, that's an example of the strong women that have been coming to Weber in the last 20 or 25 years. So, you became involved with the Women's Studies Program through them or just through seeing things about it on campus? DK: I'm not sure how I got word of the annual meeting—the Women's Studies annual meeting. I think it must have been my second year of being at Weber State that I either learned of it from something that was sent out or it's possible that Sally or Judy mentioned it to me. Anyway, I went to the meeting and we were concluding the business and they said, "Well, we need a coordinator for next year. Diane, what about you?" "Okay, let me think what skills I have." I had been Department Chair, of course, at both high schools that I had taught at, so I had some administrative experience under my belt—certainly not the amount that I could have used, but again, Women's Studies Coordinator is for three years and it's basically the secretary that runs the program. Really the point of that is that people promised to be supportive and mentoring in that position. The only drawback was I didn't have tenure yet, but I guess they decided they would take a chance. I think they thought that maybe having been a nun, I had some sense of how women should organize things and run them and be good to other women. So, I did in fact take on the job and Gloria 14 gave a lot of help. We had Norma, who was secretary, who had been secretary for Gloria but she wanted to retire at Christmas time, so we went on search for another secretary and we found Linda Shoemake. She was spectacular. She came from—she had been in an office for, I think the public schools for a long time and she came and she was fully invested in the program and extremely good at communicating with the other secretaries. Of course, Women's Studies is an interdepartmental program. RL: It's all volunteer. DK: Right. It's all volunteer and inter-departmental, so you have to be able to communicate with secretaries across campus in order to know what's going on and how you should be operating. Linda actually mastered the budget, which no one before or since, I think, has done. We actually did quite well with that, except that at one point I actually went hat in hand to five deans to beg for some money for Women's Studies. So, that was a really interesting experience for me to meet the deans in other colleges. So, Linda just really helped and I had set up—Gloria had actually done all the paperwork to get us through semester conversion, but I drew up sheets for the students coming in so that we could make their converting of the courses they had already taken from the quarter to semester credits easier. So, that was my accomplishment in that timeframe. Also, the University went into program evaluation and I set something of that up for Women's Studies—a sheet of criteria for whether the program was a success or not. Kathleen Lukken was the temporary Provost. I think at the time she was also in 15 charge of that evaluation program where we were looking across the University at different— RL: Accreditation and five year reviews. DK: Right. She had a website and I plugged all sorts of data in there. RL: Now, at about the time you came was when they were pushing Teaching and Learning Forum and strategic planning in different areas of the University and so forth. Were you involved in any of those activities or did you pretty much keep your nose to the grindstone with English and Women's Studies? DK: Only in terms of just setting up that evaluation criteria for Women's Studies. Of course, I participated at the Teaching and Learning Forum, but I also was trying to get—by this time Sesh was Chair and he was pushing me to get my book published so that I would be able to get Associate Professor or tenure out of that. RL: They were still doing both at that time. DK: Right, we would do this both at the same time. So, he directed me to a press where we'd probably be able to get the book published and I got an RS&PG grant—again, with the help of Sally—to change my dissertation into a book. So, that was very helpful, but— RL: What was the nature of the book? DK: It was on a medieval mystic called Julian of Norwich and—The Politics of Enclosure was what I wanted to call it, so that's what I eventually called the book itself. It was on the nature of her texts and how they focused on Jesus as mother. So, she was a medieval mystic and her visions—which she only had once, and 16 she turned out to live, we think, quite a long time—but she was a very grounded person, so she wasn't the type of mystic that's some place off in the clouds. She only had the visions once and she wrote a book from that and then after meditating for maybe 20 years on that, she wrote a longer book. So, I looked at the structure of the book in terms of enclosure and how this reflected her emphasis on Jesus as being a mother. Of course, the cognitive dissonance with that type of gender disparity that might exist for moderns was not prevalent in the medieval mind where gender was as gender did—that is to say, your actions determined your gender. Of course, your actions were highly circumscribed so they could determine you gender, but she listed qualities of Jesus that are mothering qualities. She also lived a life of enclosure, and she talks about being in Jesus, almost as in a womb, and there are different images in the Middle Ages that look at Jesus as a mother with a womb. But, that, again, would be the subject of another discussion. RL: You mentioned Bob Smith earlier as Vice President for Academic Affairs, and I think toward the end of his time here they made the change and that position was called Provost. Were you able, in your capacity as Coordinator of Women's Studies and on other committees as well, did you have much experience working with him? DK: I didn't actually. I knew his wife, Adele, much better because she was the one who was closest to Women's Studies. They gave us their cabin to use, for instance, for our annual meetings, so we did that for a couple of years. I knew and admired Bob, but I never actually worked alongside him. Probably the Dean I 17 would have worked most with would be Richard Sadler because he was the Dean for Women's Studies. June Phillips, I worked on various general education committees within the college, and we worked with her on those and also another thing on evaluation with her. There were large movements in terms of the student evaluation and program evaluation. The program evaluation was the most dynamic development change that I was witnessing as I taught here—after semester conversion which was its own little nightmare, but we managed to get through that. I worked with Levi Peterson on that when he was Chair to do semester conversion and then with Dean Phillips on those types of committees, the types of committees that looked at program review and general education development. So, those were the Deans I best knew. RL: Was Sherwood gone by the time you got here? DK: Yeah, he was no longer around. He had been replaced as Dean of Arts and Humanities by June. RL: You were here under two different presidents, Paul Thompson and Ann Milner. DK: Right. Two different Provosts—well, there was Bob Smith, there was Kathleen Lukken and Mike Vaughn while I was here. Who was the Richard that was head of diversity—well it wasn't called diversity— RL: Richard Ulaberry. DK: I did work with him because I was on the diversity committee again because, well, partly because I wanted to be there to represent Women's Studies and he wanted me to be there. He was very very supportive of Women's Studies, so I 18 tried to make sure that I worked well on that committee with him and we worked on the Diversity Conference, I don't know if the first one was one of the ones I worked on, but we worked to make the Diversity Conference a good one and handled all sorts of different issues. I, of course, was there, but first mostly to encourage looking at women's issues. RL: Then there was Mike Vaughn. Did you have occasions working with him? DK: No. I didn't work with people in their capacity as Provost at all, nor the Presidents in their capacity as presidents. As I said, Richard Ulaberry, who was Vice President for Diversity I guess at the time— RL: Assistant to the Vice President for Diversity. DK: Okay. He was the one I would have worked with and then Dean Sadler and Dean Phillips, so none of the other higher administrators. I was mostly intent of getting through my tenure and promotion process and running Women's Studies and teaching classes of which I've taught quite a few different ones. This is another appeal, I might say, of Weber State, to me—despite a Ph. D. in Medieval Literature, I am basically a generalist at heart. I love to dabble in a lot of different things, and Weber was a wonderful resource for being able to teach all sorts of different classes, and my Department Chairs encouraged and enabled that. It was easier, of course, when we were on quarters because there were simply more electives. Even when we had semester conversion and we were working in semesters I had opportunities to teach science fiction, fantasy, Perspectives in Women's Literature, some women's studies courses, the Women's Studies Critical Theory course for both women's studies and for English, and The Bible 19 as Literature. This was another happy dovetailing of my interest with what Weber State enabled. RL: So, the Weber State that you came to and the Weber State from which you retired, were different? It developed over the years and what are your impressions with the directions in which Weber has changed? DK: I've had to come to grips with having attended Jesuit universities and having been formed in a philosophy of education that came out of a Catholic background, I had a much more classical view of how a university should operate than I encountered even when I first came to Weber State and certainly throughout the decade and a half that I was here afterward. I think it's a necessary direction. I don't think it's—I mean, it would be very nice to say, "Well, this is what the University should look like." But I don't even know that's true even what is best for our country. Weber State has joined the computer revolution and the technological revolution in general. I taught all sorts of online courses and enjoyed putting courses on the internet even before it was popular. So, I had lots of material that my students were accessing through computers even before it became almost mandated that we do that. I don't like the business model of education, but I don't know if there's a way around it economically today. So, I think Weber has done what it needed to do to survive and to flourish in this particular culture—culture meaning the whole of the economic reality of the United States and its educational needs. It still needs a populous that is educated in order to keep a vibrant democracy going and even the philosophy of the Jesuits has changed with respect to that. They 20 see the need for a more democratic approach to education. So, universities may have offered scholarships to some poor but talented students in the past, but I think it's become increasingly necessary to draw in middle class and working class students because that's the only way they're going to survive economically and even politically today. People have to be savvy about those things. RL: Certainly, the level of wisdom that went into the idea of preparing Weber students for the economy and society here in Utah. I know it has paid off. There was an article recently about Weber having the highest return of investment for the schools in Utah. A greater percentage of our students are working. We do a lot more with a lot less money. Of course, when you first came, this was strictly, well, pretty much an undergraduate school. I think at that time we would have had three master's programs. DK: I don't even know if there was that many. RL: When I came there was accounting, education, and— DK: Nursing? Did nursing have one? RL: No, it was something in the social sciences area. It's grown to where we have quite a few master's program and I know when I first arrived people were saying, "There will never be doctorates at Weber." Now I'm hearing conversations in that direction. Yet, I think we're successful because we can still keep that approach to education where our faculty actually teach. They're doing research, they're publishing, they're doing all kinds of travel and gaining a lot of respect for the institution, but they still teach and they really love it. 21 DK: In fact, this is what impressed me about my replacement from Yale. She comes from a very high-powered university, obviously. She was tired of maybe the type of students who felt the world owed them a living at Yale. RL: Who was your replacement? DK: It was Samantha, and her name was changed because she was married, but I don't remember her last name right now. She turned out to be a spectacular teacher. She was so impressive in the classroom when she came for her interview that it put her at the top of the list for who we would hire. Before I left U.C. Davis, again, the economic situation changed. I heard other doctoral students at conferences like the Modern Language Association Conference, which is a big hiring place, mumbling that why would they want to go to a teaching university. I thought, "Well, maybe if you wanted a job you'd go to a teaching university because those are where the jobs are these days." So, the job market has changed. That's been a major change, but I do have to say that as I got older, it just flabbergasts me that people are so capable. These younger, incoming professors are so capable to be able to basically do everything. I'm not sure if it's the best use of their energy because it certainly must be draining on a certain number of them, but I think Weber is flourishing at this point with the type of people we've hired and the type of loyalty that both previous faculty and alumni have toward the school. I think it's on the right track for what has to be done. 22 RL: Now, you spoke about the students and how they were when you first came here and certainly the faculty and the staff have changed over the years. What are your impressions of the students? Did the face of the students also change? DK: I think, as far as the majors in English, I didn't find a big difference. I was finding in the composition students a sort of less preparedness in terms of attitude as I went on. Of course, I couldn't tell if it was because I was getting old and therefore, less patient about the type of things that they didn't want to do, like assignments. I did find that, it seemed at one point to me, and this was just a momentary dawning of an idea that the number of students—I was still getting good quality work out of most of my students and I was getting outstanding work out of some, but it seemed that there were a growing number of students who simply didn't bother with the final project. I heard other teachers complaining about the same thing. The students would be in class all semester and just not bother with the project that they needed to do in order to pass the class. That was one thing that I found to be unsettling. I don't know if it's partly because some of these students are younger in terms of they may have taken college courses while they were still in high school. RL: Advanced placement courses. DK: Yeah, advanced placement or the early college courses while they were in high school and they just weren't mature enough once they got to the university to buckle down and do the work. Or they had reached the point where they had exhausted themselves from high school and they weren't ready to take on college responsibilities, but that was a little bit of a challenge. On the other hand, 23 I was teaching master's students. I actually got to teach—and again, Merlin Cheney, who shepherded the master's program for English into its existence, was very willing to have me in that program and I found it very gratifying. I found students there who were very exceptional in terms of the quality of work they produced and their preparedness across the board for the courses that they were taking. That was a good deal of fun for me, intellectually. I also enjoyed my upper division courses quite a bit. RL: Were there students with whom you've kept in touch? DK: Actually, I do have a Facebook friend who was one of my students and then other people will say to me, "Oh, Dr. Krantz, I was one of your students." I'll see them in the grocery store or someplace else and we'll greet like that. I don't tend to be very personal in the classroom, so I didn't tend to keep a lot of students friendly, but I had, for instance, not too long before I retired, probably about five years before I retired, a student came back with—two students came back actually—they were both alumni and they had both taken a class from me and they had married and I had been at their wedding, I think. But, the sad part of that return was he was in a wheelchair. He was actually a quadriplegic because the summer after he graduated, they went to Idaho to do swimming and he dived off a cliff onto a pile of rocks. There had been storms—he had done it before in that particular spot on the river, but there had been bad storms that winter, so there was a pile of rocks where they didn't expect them. So, what was a blessing for him is he had already been hired by—it might have been BYU Idaho, I'm not sure, but he was working for the LDS church and so he had insurance that 24 summer even though he had just graduated from college. It looked like his young wife was going to be called upon to do quite a bit of work, but I was honored that they returned to talk to me, to see me as part of their return to Ogden. Then, Melissa Halverson, who was one of my students, and I used to share stories because at the time I had a pet rat and she kept pet rats, so we had something in common there, so she's one of my Facebook friends at this point. Several other students just, you know, dropped into my office when I was still on campus, but I don't correspond with anyone from here. I actually do correspond with a couple of my high school students, but that was a little bit exceptional also. I tended not to—I never believed in a classroom where you were kind of close friends with students, although people would often say, "Well, you really like so and so because she's so bright." I'd say, "Well, I also like other people that are not really doing that well in my class," so it's not fair to just say because this person is so bright is why I give her attention. I say "her" because at that time I was teaching all girls. I had a few friends among the high school students and a few friends among the students here. I attended several weddings. One of the reasons I got my second car—after which "totaling," I got my third car, which I totaled and then quit driving—at any rate, one of the reasons I got my second car was because I missed the wedding of one of the students I was friends with and I was very disappointed at that. She was just married in a place I couldn't get to by bus. So, a number of the students—a number of the men students also have come back 25 and talked to me when I was still in my office. I felt very gratified to see them and excited. RL: Do you feel like any students stand out in your mind as successes? Sometimes you take someone on and help them just a little bit and it makes a big difference. DK: I can no longer recall names. I have a terrible time with names to begin with and then I don't recall them very well afterward. I just remember some of my—the men students were very sharp, I'm not trying to downplay those at all, but just some of the women students who had such spectacular insights. I was trying to get one—I wrote a glowing letter for one student to try to get her into the University of Utah, but her ACT scores weren't good, so I actually called the head of the English department to see why they hadn't accepted her and basically, what I was accused of doing was lying for the student. The student was brilliant. She had insights into literature that I rarely encountered even in the master's level and I very much thought she belonged in a graduate program and at the time we didn't have a graduate program. He basically said he wouldn't trust any of the professors at Weber State to write letters of recommendation for their students. He said one of the letters he got for her seemed like a template. I said, "You know, I found her outstanding." I guess this is one of the signs that, in fact, my students and I did have a good relationship. I did have, over the years, a good number of requests for recommendations. There was only once when I told the student that I though perhaps she should try another professor because she hadn't done that well in my class. She hadn't done that well in anybody's class, which was why she was asking me for a recommendation, but I felt I couldn't 26 write her a good recommendation. Other students, both male and female, I could write glowing recommendations for and did. They were just very insightful. RL: Your standpoint was your different involvements of teaching that you would consider your biggest successes? Or is there something that you see as a— DK: Culminating experience? RL: Your greatest accomplishment. DK: I think having the Women's Studies program survive me is an accomplishment. I've enjoyed the teaching and I think my students have been—at least they were successful in terms of getting into higher education if they wanted to go there and that makes me very happy. For high school teaching too, over two and a half decades, I also realize that oftentimes—well, I got a letter from a students whom I had taught in high school some 15 years after I had taught the student saying how happy he was that he had me because he had encountered a situation where my advice in the classroom had gone a long way to helping him out in that situation. RL: That's always a good feeling. We'll never get rich, but it's the little gems that make it worthwhile. DK: I mean, basically, with teaching you cast your bread on the waters. It's planting ideas and I often thought—and I tried to do this with my Comp students—that I would make composition not only a course where I would teach them how to write for all of their courses in the future, but that I would also try to give them a little homely advice or advice from my own experiences as a student that I hoped 27 would one day stand them in good stead. So, I told them that sometimes it's just hanging in there that gets you a degree. It's not being the most brilliant one in the class or even necessarily the most productive one in the class, but keep persevering and it takes you a long way toward being educated. So, I think, you know, hopefully some of the students in their darker moments in college remembered that advice and kept on. RL: It sounds as though you've been rather happy with most of your accomplishments here at Weber. Any regrets about anything? DK: You'll see that at this point, I was looking to see what I had written as a regret—if I looked at anything with a regret. If I could go back, I guess what I would do is try to meet more colleagues from more of the colleges at Weber. I think I had a wonderful opportunity in terms of being on the Diversity Committee and being chair of Women's Studies to get a little bit across campus, but I think I could have got more out of some of those situations and I would have liked to have known more of my colleagues across campus that way. I did belong to—I was on the board of the employee association, the Faculty Staff association. I was on the board of that for several years and that was also a nice opportunity to meet people across campus. RL: And not just faculty members. DK: Right. Well, I've often—I have a very good rapport with the secretaries in English and the office manager in English, so I'm very pleased with that and I also got to take my dog to campus the last year I taught. I would leave him in my office. The first semester—the spring semester I took him first was because I was teaching a 28 night class and it's kind of eerie around here at night especially at nine at night. So, I said, "Well, I'm taking Benji and if somebody objects, then that will be the end of it," so I took him over and he stayed in my office while I taught and then I went back upstairs and I'd say, "Okay, we're going to take a walk home," and he was just as happy as a little lark and we walked home. By this time, of course, I had given up driving. The next semester was fall semester, I said, "Well, we got away with it in the spring, let's see what happens now." So, actually, the dean told me there were no restrictions on campus about bringing an animal. Of course, you're not supposed to bring them into the classroom, so I did not do that, but I had him in my office and the secretaries made a big fuss over him and I just thought he kind of enlivened the floor when he was out of my office on a leash. I think that would be the one thing I would try to meet more people and maybe socialize with more people because my socializing was mostly with the English department. RL: Which is not necessarily a bad thing. That's not much of a regret to have. It's good to be able to speak about your years here in such a positive tone. DK: It's good to be—I mean, I think even with my leaving, again, there was this support, this kind of quiet support. It wasn't people making a big fuss over it, but quiet support in a number of ways, so I was thinking that I should retire, not necessarily that I wanted to or needed to, but I should retire by the time I was in my later sixties, so I had gone to inquire at personnel and they said, "Well, wait until the end of the year before you put in a formal declaration." Well, that was before the voluntary separation plan was public and then a couple of months 29 later they made it public. I thought, "You know, those people, without saying anything directly, made sure that I would be eligible for that." RL: Directing you in the way to go. DK: So, again, it was just very quiet, but very helpful because, of course, I only worked for pay for the 17 years I was at Weber—I was teaching actively at Weber the 18 years I was here and then for graduate student fellowships for six or seven years while I was at U.C. Davis, but it wasn't much to build social security on, or even a pension, but you know, I'm doing well. I have no regrets that Weber State has done me a great deal of good and it's a fine place. It's got wonderful people in it and wonderful students and faculty and staff and I'm just glad I was here and got to know everyone. RL: Sounds like you built a good life here and have fond memories. DK: I do indeed. RL: What more can you ask for than that? DK: Exactly. RL: Diane, is there anything else you would like you tell us about or any information you would like to share? DK: I'm just glad that I also had the opportunity to give a last lecture because I had originally thought that it was supposed to be one's last lecture. Then, it turns out, no, you're supposed to be delivering it as if it were a last lecture. But, for me, it was a last lecture and it was my one opportunity to take my two areas of expertise and kind of reflect on them as a whole instead of in pieces. 30 RL: I was there and you managed to come in there and shine. DK: Thank you, Ruby. RL: You sounded as though you were happy with both of the pieces of your life and were able to combine them in a very intriguing manner. I really like that approach. DK: I think it's special to Weber State that I was able to do that. I don't know if there are other universities where that would have been possible. I think at other universities, things are very compartmentalized. It's part of the ambiance of Weber State that it allows for that. RL: And you brought together a rather eclectic audience just because of the nature of the lecture. DK: I did. I was hoping the scientists wouldn't get up and shoot me, but everybody seemed pleased, so I was happy. RL: Well, I want to thank you for spending time with us today. We try to get people's perspectives on different aspects of Weber State and this will really help us do that. DK: Thank you, Ruby. I enjoyed doing this. This was much more fun than I envisioned. RL: People get a little nervous about it, but just sit back, relax, and enjoy it. It's better than going to the dentist. DK: That's true. Almost anything is. 31 RL: Thank you so much, Diane. DK: Thank you, Ruby. 32

Gordon T. Allred, March 7, 2014; Gordon and Sharon Allred, March 7, 2014 ; The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ; The following is an interview with Dr. Gordon T. Allred conducted on March 7, 2014 by Ruby Licona. Also present is Stacie Gallagher, the video technician. Dr. Allred discusses his career at Weber State from 1963 to 2011 as a professor of English. ; 39p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Gordon T. Allred Interviewed by Ruby Licona 7 March 2014 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Gordon T. Allred Interviewed by Ruby Licona 7 March 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Allred, Gordon T., an oral history by Ruby Licona, 7 March 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Gordon T. Allred March 7, 2014 Gordon and Sharon Allred March 7, 2014 Abstract: The following is an interview with Dr. Gordon T. Allred conducted on March 7, 2014 by Ruby Licona. Also present is Stacie Gallagher, the video technician. Dr. Allred discusses his career at Weber State from 1963 to 2011 as a professor of English. RL: Good morning. Today is March 7, 2014, and we are in the Waterstradt Room at the Stewart Library at Weber State University. We are talking today with Gordon Allred, who joined the faculty here in 1963, but actually joined the Weber community as a toddler. So, we are going to have a delightful time talking to him about some of his adventures as a child and then later his impressions as an adult. Good morning and thank you for coming in to talk with us for the Oral History Program. I mentioned that you came here as a toddler. Both of your parents were on the faculty at Weber State, your mother, Pearl Allred and your father M. Thatcher Allred joined the faculty in 1931. So that means you as a fairly young child would have been here roaming around in diapers. GA: Yes, indeed. They both came and joined the faculty at the same time. RL: Did they? Oh, I was looking at a book that had them divided up, one said 1921 and one 1931. So they both came in 1931. Where did they come here from? GA: Well, you want me to launch with a little explanation of where they came from and what you're talking about now? RL: Sure. GA: Well, I'll just read from some written info I've assembled. If you want to interrupt, 1 don't hesitate. I arrived at Ogden at the tender age of six months. My father Thatcher obtained his MA in speech and drama at the University of Iowa in 1930. He and my mother Pearl graduated some years earlier from the Utah State University, then known as the AC – Agricultural College. Both were hired by Dr. Leland H. Monson, Thatcher in Speech and Drama, later becoming chair of the Speech and Drama Department for many years, and Pearl in English. She also worked part time for the Carnegie Free Library, giving weekly book reviews a few years later. RL: So you were indoctrinated fairly early, weren't you? GA: Yes indeed! Weber College was located then, and during my early adult years as a student, on the old downtown campus in the quad just below Lester park, which was in turn below Madison Grade School. Many of the classes, including those taught by Leland Monson and my parents, were in the Moench Building across the street on Jefferson. That building contained the well-known Moench Auditorium and was the place where my father ultimately directed most of his plays – about seventy, as I recall. He also established the Ogden Community Theater which included faculty and members of the Ogden community along with the students. I could always tell when play openings were hovering, incidentally, because rehearsals would run later and later under my father's perfecting hand sometimes until three in the morning. And opening night many of our household items would often appear on stage. That was the sure cue that we were ready to go. RJ: In the chapter that you did in the Weber College History, you talk about hiding 2 among the curtains on the stage. Were they Purple velvet, as you recall? GA: No. Dark blue. Anyway I did that on a number of occasions, and drew the curtains quite often when no one was around. RL: Can you smell the dust? GA: Yes, definitely – still can. And the sound! The curtains would open like great flowing wings! And the feel of the waxed drawing ropes in the palms of my hands! Our stage was only the size of a large living room, but I remember and feel those things vividly after lo these four score years. RL: And you remember the plays as they were presented? GA: By no means all of them or the exact sequence but a number of them. At times the stage also hosted other productions – our neighborhood kindergarten performance of an animal fair of sorts, and I was a seagull. RL: Jonathan Livingston? GA: Hey, that's good! But this was a bit before his time. The children, however, each functioned as a different animal, and my dad actually drove with me all the way to Salt Lake to purchase my own special outfit. But on the big night as we were all assembling in our variegated costumes behind the great curtains, I thought I heard someone in the audience calling my name. Consequently, I parted my way through them and called out loudly, "Was someone calling my name?" Only muffled laughter. "Hmm, that's funny," I persisted. "I thought I heard someone calling me!" More laughter. RL: No doubt your father was calling you back from behind the curtain. 3 GA: Well, he wasn't actually involved in this one. It was strictly a kindergarten level. Supervised by our loving teachers Childs and Thomas, but somehow they managed to retrieve me and get the show underway with plenty of prancing and dancing and lively animal interaction. Even now, however, I sometimes hear that voice calling me, "Oh, Goorrdy!!" Maybe that should have been the beginning of my "calling", of my career as an actor. Others have suggested that teachers are all actors of various sorts and that the classroom and the student are their audience. The faculty in those days numbered only 16 or 17 members, along with some of the staff. This was the Depression Era, but my parents were both teaching as mentioned. My mother got a little less than my father. I think she got $1,500 a year, and he got $1,600. Of course a dollar was worth about 30 times what it is now, and with my parents' combined income I was never aware of any deprivation. We seemed to get along quite well. RL: What about your contact with the college presidents? GA: I don't remember exactly how the sequence went with Weber's presidents. I know there was President Creer and President Aaron Tracy, then fairy early in the game, Henry Aldous Dixon came in. RL: Yes, he was only here originally for a couple of years, left and then was back for quite a long time. GA: Yes, and he was regarded fondly by several of the faculty children as Uncle Aldous. We lived in a little frame home on 24th Street, just up from St. Joseph's Catholic Church in the 500 block. Some of the faculty I remember well along with 4 their children included Roland and Helen Parry, living nearby, J. Clair and Florence Anderson, both Roland and J. Clair in music, Walter Buss in geography and his wife, Cluster Nilsson in English, and Wally and Grace Baddley. Wally was actually the superintendent of buildings and grounds. Their son Brent and I became close friends beginning about one year of age, living there in that little quadrangle, and we were later missionary companions for six months in Eastern Canada, up on Lake Nippising. We had some interesting experiences there. Wally Baddley was actually, as I say, Superintendent of Buildings and Grounds and on one occasion, during our childhood days, Brent and I managed to sneak into the Moench through the basement window and found ourselves there in a science lab, face-to-face with an actual skeleton. That was quite an experience for two young lads about four or five years of age, to encounter this ghastly, grinning skeleton. RL: You got what you deserved. GA: We did. Wally was not too happy with the situation. He was highly dedicated and well organized, but sometimes a bit grouchy and outspoken. And he definitely was in this case. On the other hand, during our high school days, he was very helpful financially. He provided Brent and me jobs watering and mowing the campus lawns with only hand-powered mowers. Weber had a Japanese gardener named Tak, I remember, and his bit of unfailing advice to us was, "Arways oir raun moler eby time fo mow". I think that was the extent of his English, so we dutifully always "oiled the lawn mowers every time before mowing." Wally also provided Brent and me jobs checking coats at the college dances, a chance to make two and a half 5 dollars for a three hour evening. RL: That was high pay. GA: Yes, that was good pay then. But we always envied the lucky college students who got the beautiful babes while we just checked their coats. Our little home on 24th contained only one bedroom and a sleeping porch along with kitchen, living and dining rooms, and was located next to a somewhat larger dwelling which had been converted into a kindergarten. It was one conducted by two motherly ladies (I can still see their faces clearly) Mrs. Thomas and Mrs. Childs, both of whom were very dedicated but gentle, and always addressed us in sweet motherly tones. Among our activities was an art class for which we brought smocks to protect our clothing and painted by use of easels and water colors. I myself was dedicated to landscapes, especially distant purple mountains, and on one occasion I had just completed a rendering of which I felt exceedingly proud, which is always a dangerous condition, only to have a little girl named Gloria Todd maintain quite vociferously that my effort looked silly and that mountains weren't purple. I didn't take criticism very well in those days, and I hope I've become a little more receptive, but I responded quite impulsively by sloshing another purple mountain on Gloria's face. She just sat there in a state of absolute daze for a moment, and I can remember vividly that face as if it were melting, and then realizing the awfulness of what I'd done. Bolting out the back way, I ran home, locked the door and hid under my parents' bed. The bed was a kind of sanctuary – not only for me, but at times for other faculty children. One in particular was Darrold Monson, son of Dr. Leland Monson, 6 who was the English Department Chair and College Division Head and who had hired my parents, as mentioned. Darrold had a special affinity for mischief and then sanctuary in our domicile under the bed. When summoned home at eventide Darrell would actually cling onto the springs when his older sister Dolores came to collect him, requiring her to prod him out, sometimes with our mop. Fortunately that sometimes wet mop in the face discouraged him and eventually Dolores prevailed and would take him home by the nape of his neck. Our faculty children in general were quite mischievous, and I remember a man coming by almost daily on a chestnut-colored horse to visit someone living a house or two down the street. I had the impression even at that young age that it was some lady friend who maybe he shouldn't be visiting. For some reason he always left the horse there untethered, even though there were metal rings in the curbing in those days for attaching such animals. We as mischievous young lads would come out of the back alley and pelt the poor horse in the flanks with pebbles. It was not a case of sadism or cruelty as I remember, simply curiosity as to how much that horse would whinny and prance. At one time, however, somebody became a little too vigorous, and the horse neighed wildly, reared up and went galloping off down 24th Street past the Catholic church with several of us running along gleefully behind. The last I remember was the sight of that chestnut horse running through the red light on Washington Blvd. Luckily, there wasn't as much traffic in those days, back 80 years ago, but I remember that well. I remember, too, as a small lad entering St. Joseph's church to see what was happening, but no one was there. All was very quiet and enchanting. Timidly I 7 made my way down the long aisle past paintings of saints along the walls. Eventually I reached the dias in front with its statue of the Savior and the rows of burning votive candles. Then, almost hypnotized, I approached and blew them out. Then I whirled and dashed back down the aisle and out into the noonday sun. But again, there was no intent to do evil; I simply thought that was what you do with candles. When you have candles on birthday cakes, you blow them out and so I blew the church candles out. I hope they weren't prayer candles and some poor people aren't devoid of their salvation because of my mischief. The old campus itself as a school is long gone, all of it gradually transferred to the present impressive establishment. A number of the buildings including the Moench have been demolished and replaced by condominiums. The Weber Gymnasium with its clattering metal fire escape along the back and indoor pool where I learned to swim at age six, are also gone, having been replaced by Gold's Gym, now under renovation. The great concrete smoke stack next to it remains and probably will into the millennium. Our little home on 24th went long ago, replaced consecutively by an LDS Institute, BYU Extension Center and now for many years a family History Center. I've always thought, in fact, if the little home of my boyhood had to go, nothing could be more appropriate than a Family History Center. My wife, Sharon, in fact, still does some of her beloved genealogy work down there, and when she comes home late at night I sometimes say, "Well, honey, which room were you in tonight – the living room, kitchen, or in my bedroom?" My bedroom was also a sleeping porch. I can remember that my other insisted on my taking my nap there, and I was 8 very much distressed overt that because my friends could be playing around outside, shouting and having a great time. She got the best of me, however, by saying, "Well, you go in and take a nap, but if you'll be a good boy, close your eyes and go to sleep, you can wake up as soon as you want to!" Somehow that actually did it, despite my sense of amusement. RL: I think you didn't put much over on your mother, did you? GA: No. That dear soul was a bit tricky at times. RL: You attended Weber on the old campus, is that correct? GA: Yes, and that campus continued for some years after I left. However, if offered a number of teachers as mentors and friends including Leland H. Monson, who sponsored a national debate contest that was the largest in the nation. My debate partner, Kent Neilsen and I were fortunate enough to win second place in one of them. Some of my friends also attended Leland's debate class at the college and made several trips in that regard to various parts of the West including California. At times the faculty – our so-called chaperones – would drive together leaving us to our own devices along the way. The devices included shot guns and .22's with which our young debaters, some of whom were girls, would engage in the shooting of jack rabbits or at least at jack rabbits, which became almost as much a part of the adventures as the tournaments themselves. Among other teachers and mentors were my parents, Dr. Larry Evans, a wit and intellect from whom I took both journalism and English, who along with Mae Welling encouraged me to make an LDS mission part of my education. This advice 9 I followed after my two years at Weber. Another faculty member who contributed to our hunting proclivities was a sweet and kindly lady by the last name of Ogden who taught typing on the old upright typewriters. Today, this seems like we were back in the Stone Age. We would type away quite dutifully, but on stormy days in the fall we would gaze longingly out the large windows toward the Great Salt Lake, about 20 miles away, and see the storm moving in. Then at such times we'd say, "Oh, Miss Ogden, look at that terrific storm out there. The ducks are going to be flying in any minute. Can't we be excused; we'll make up our typing later?" And she would say, "Well, all right boys, I guess so. But don't forget to bring me a duck or two when you come back." She was a dear soul, and very charming. Another lady I remember very well was Lydia Tanner who ran the school cafeteria, and was well known in the community as an excellent cook. Nearly all the dishes in those days cost five or ten cents. About six of them and you'd have a full meal. My favorite dessert was bread pudding with hard sauce, and for thirty-five cents total we could be quite warmed and filled. The most remarkable and perhaps influential of my professors and mentors was Dr. Jennings (Jay) Olson, but I'll say more about that further on. Weber was known in those days for its social clubs – none of which were national but quite distinctive and memorable in their various ways. Some of the women's versions included La Dianeda and Otyokwa, and among those for the men, Excelsior and Phoenix – the former, Excelsior, known for their partying and carousing and the latter erroneously as sissies or "The Sisters". This was because 10 it included most of the prospective or returned missionaries and because they garnered all of the awards in the humanities and the arts. However, they also won all the athletic contests as well – which included baseball, football, basketball, boxing, wrestling and swimming – the whole thing. We won nearly all of them. We were also among the stalwart hunters of whom I have spoken. Romance at Weber was high and included such dances as the Phoenix Snowball, as Christmas approached. I can remember ordering corsages from Jimmy's Flower Shop just down the street by the Ogden Theater. The white orchid was ideal for $7.50. The dance was held in the dance hall adjacent to the gymnasium where my pal Brent and I had checked coats in our earlier days of envy, but now we could actually squire charmers of our own. Center stage was a gigantic cotton snowball covered with glitter on a turn table, with music by Shorty Ross and his orchestra. Shorty played a vibraharp – some kind of xylophone if I remember correctly. During that time it was my good fortune to date some fine young women, and even more following my return from the Canadian Mission while attending the University of Utah. One such individual was Sharon Wallace, whom I first dated when she was seventeen and attending her senior year at Ogden High School. I was an old man of twenty-two. Despite her marked appeal it was, I decided, the classic case of robbing the cradle. Sharon apparently thought so too, but always prayed she would find "someone just like Gordon Allred, " only someone a lot younger and still fun, not so old and serious. As it turned out, she ultimately found someone far too much like Gordon Allred and has had to live with him ever since. But that was not until after my return from the army two years later. 11 In the meantime Sharon had attended and graduated from Weber Junior College, and starred in several of my father's plays, receiving the college's Actress of the Year award. Consequently, she and my father had developed a fond and admiring relationship. I can remember that in one of his letters to me while I was in Japan with the U.S. Army, my father strongly recommended that upon my return I waste no time in "Paying that darling young Sharon a visit." That visit occurred, in fact, somewhat unexpectedly the day after my arrival. It was a Sunday morning in June and I entered the foyer of our ward, to be greeted by a beautiful, glowing girl in a yellow dress. Reaching out, she offered a warm hand clasp, exclaiming "Welcome home, stranger." Sharon always has been embarrassed at using such a cliché. Speaking of clichés, however, it was "music to my ears" and I remember thinking, "Wow, she certainly has grown up." On my way home that day a voice kept repeating, "You're going to marry that girl." However, my alter ego would reply, "Oh, you just got home from Japan; you've been away for eighteen months. She's a beautiful girl and has grown up a lot, but you don't just automatically think you're going to marry her." That voice, however, actually repeated itself about six times and I thought, "Alright, I'd better call her up and see if she's still willing to go out with me. We went on a drive up Ogden Canyon, around Pine View Reservoir, and that was how it all started over again. Four months later we were married, on October 26 in the Salt Lake Temple, and it's been life's greatest experience for old GTA ever since. Some of those that were employed at Weber over the years from our family include: M. Thatcher Allred – for 37 years was a full professor, after whom the M. 12 Thatcher Allred Theater is named. He was known as Mr. Theater by colleagues. Pearl Allred was a full and part-time teacher for about 25 years. Gordon T. Allred, Ph.D and full Professor of English teaching 48 years. Sharon W. Allred received her B.A. in English Literature and her Certificate of Education, and was head of Operations for the College of Education for 15 years. Amy Allred Shaw, our daughter, was School Services assistant director; Kathy Allred Junk was Theater Arts Department Secretary and later office manager for Student Activities. Anthony T. Allred, Ph.D., full Professor of Marketing is in about his 17th year of teaching. By the time of his retirement that many or more years from now, Weber State University will have seen, I hope happily, approximately 100 continuous years of Allred involvement. RL: It's hard to believe that Tony has been here seventeen years, because I remember giving him a tour of the library when he first arrived on campus as a faculty member. GA: Here's an interesting little side bit: Each of the three Allred professors have had the middle name of Thatcher. I won't go into the history of that name, but my father was Moses Thatcher Allred. He didn't particularly like the name Moses, so he went always by M. Thatcher Allred. I'm Gordon Thatcher Allred. Tony is Anthony Thatcher Allred, and he has a son, Nicholas, whose middle name is Thatcher, and who thinks he may also want to go into Business Education. I informed our good former University President Ann Milner, of that fact, one time, during the Henry Aldous Dixon awards gathering, suggesting that she would definitely have to hire him some day. We have a little family saying, at least I do, it's rather corny: "Our 13 name may be Allred, but we bleed Purple." Among those people I know who have had special impact on Weber, have been the following English Department heads: Dr. Leland Monson (also Division Head during much of that time), Bob Mikkelson, Levi Peterson (one of the early department Ph.D.'s instrumental in my obtaining my own doctorate and encouraging my writing and publishing efforts), Floyd Woodfield, Gerald Grove (veteran AF fighter pilot in WWII and Korean War, flying 250 missions in the Corsair), Candadai Seshachari, Tom Burton, and Kathy Herndon. Other significant colleagues and students include Dr. Reed Swenson, longtime coach and P.E. professor, and close friend of my father after whom Swenson Gym is named; Dr. Stephen Stanford, Social Sciences; Dr. Merlin Cheney, a longtime friend and Director of the English Master's Program; Clarisse Hall, (going back a long time), the early-day Registrar on the Downtown Campus who was the sister of George Hyde, the college plumber. I remember seeing George's besmeared face emerging from his plumbing efforts out of the manholes at times. He sometimes went hunting with us; Dr. LaVon Carrol, member of the English Department and Utah Poet of the Year; Dr. Victoria Ramirez, talented friend in the Department and occupant of the adjoining office for many years; Dr. Robert Hogge, retired Air Force Colonel, whom I helped hire on at Weber where he continued until his retirement 24 years later. Bob is my close friend and mentor and a teacher of great diversity of classes; Dr. Mikel Vause, former student and still teacher in the Department, noted mountaineer who has published quite widely and nearly lost his life on several occasions. 14 Dr. Evan Memmott, Head of the Audio-Visual Department in the College of Education, was a devoted friend and next door neighbor, and we often regarded his family of nine children as our own children, and our own eleven as his. He and I often joked about making a tunnel between our houses, which would be especially convenient after a heavy winter snowfall. He was a conference wrestling champion, and I worked out with him for many years. Sometimes I could do pretty well because I was ten years younger and engaged in weight-lifting at the time. But if he ever got me in a hold called the "figure four", there was no hope, and I soon surrendered. His passing from a rare form of leukemia was indeed saddening. I was his ward bishop at the time and was profoundly affected by that. Dr. Richard Sadler, Chair of the History Department and Dean of the College of Social Sciences, was another fine colleague. I had his wife Claudia and several children in my classes, and he had several of mine in his own. It was quite a nice exchange. The following prominent professors should also be of interest and who attended some of my classes. Dr. Gene Sessions, whose middle name was Allred. We always greeted each other as "cuz – "How you doing, cuz?" I think we're third cousins. He was in my Biographical Writing class with his wife, Shantal. Dr. Alton Davis, Political Science Department, who attended several of my classes to assist his son, Brad, who suffered from terminal lung disease. Dt. Larry Doman, Chair of the Languages Department, who attended several of my classes and directed out quarter-long Studies Abroad program in Spain at which I taught, about thirty years ago. Dr. George Crawford, Dean of Business and Economics. Dr. Casseel Burk, Dean of Education. Dr. Jennings (Jay) Olson, philosophy program, mentioned 15 previously. I didn't ever have him in classes, but I wouldn't have been able to teach him much. Not that he was proud, but I knew him very well personally and he directed the Honors program for several years, and always did everything in superabundance. Jay was the only true genius I ever knew personally. Upon Jay's move from upper 25th Street to South Ogden some of my sons and I spent several days transferring his library to his new double garage and basement. It numbered more than twenty thousand volumes, all read cover to cover and marked in color code of red, green and blue. He was a pillar of physical fitness, running great distances and pressing massive weights, also traversing the world engaging in acts of aid and uplift of which few people were aware. When he first began teaching on the old campus I took two of his classes. Sharon took, I think, 35 hours from him and was very impressed with the man, as I was. While on the present campus he contracted a severe, degenerative nerve disease, but he forged on valiantly to the end in his late seventies. It was my great honor to speak at his funeral. Jay had always been a great favorite of my parents and was a source of Christ-like uplift in their passing. Following our marriage Sharon and I enrolled at the University of Utah where I obtained my master's degree in journalism with a minor in English. During that period we both worked half-time, she as a doctor's receptionist and I an associate editor for the old Improvement Era, forerunner of the Ensign. I then enrolled in a doctoral program at Chicago's Medill School of Journalism but abandoned it after a year for employment as a writer with the U. S. Forest Service near my home in Ogden. Four years later I joined the Weber English Department. 16 This latter was an amazingly simple process, hardly like today when 800 people apply for consideration. I was walking along outside the Forest Service Building, feeling I'd come to something of a dead end there. It was a good job in many ways, but I was looking for other options, and there was Leland Monson walking up to me, very fortuitously, and in his very articulate, precise way of speaking, he said, "Gordon, I want you to come teach in the English Department at Weber College." That was about how hard it was, and I accepted! His request was based not only on my previous schooling and articles I had published with the Era, but also in the men's outdoor market, and my book, Kamikaze, on the life of a Japanese suicide pilot. It was a one-time best seller and translated into several languages. In 1963 I began my forty-eight year career at what eventually became Weber State University. At the onset I was given our two advanced freshman English courses containing an outstanding group of students, including prominent author Dean Hughes, who is the most prolific author I've ever known. Other courses I taught early on included Intro to Fiction and Intro to Literature, Beginning and Advanced Fiction Writing, Biographical Writing and seminars on a number of modern authors including Ray Bradbury, Wallace Stegner, Bernard Malamud, Ernest Hemingway and various others. Incidentally, by interesting coincidence, just the other day I received very nice letters from Marilyn Diamond and Leanna Riddle of the Honors Department, who had been with Kay Brown and my wife Sharon in one of my Biographical Writing classes. I also received one from Kay who was previously our department secretary. 17 Ten years into my program at Weber I received a full professorship on the strength of my authorship and publishing, but was feeling the growing need to obtain a doctorate in Creative Writing. Few universities were offering one and all of them were demanding two, even three languages (in the case of Iowa). I decided to try my old alma mater the University of Utah, where I'd been for a good may years, but I didn't think it was likely. I sent a letter to the head of the department, Dr. Kenneth Eble, and got one by return mail that read, "Dear Gordon, by interesting coincidence we are just in the process of formulating a doctoral program in creative writing and you need to have another major to go along with it. Please write and let us know what you would like." I of course was delighted and promptly wrote a reply of about five pages single-spaced on my little Remington typewriter. If he had taken me up on it, my entire program probably would have probably required five years instead of the actual three to complete. Happily as well I was able to substitute a lengthy paper on characterization for the language requirement, which is all too often a mere hurdle with most doctorates. Anyway, I remember clearly that letter from Ken and working out what eventually became an excellent creative writing doctorate with a modern literature combination, one I ultimately completed with a 4.90 grade point – all A's except for one B. The program ended with a three-hour oral which went well, and included a couple of interesting incidents. One of the committee members whom I had never met despite my best efforts, merely smoked a large meerschaum pipe throughout the entire proceeding until the air was literally blue. Asked at the end if he had any 18 questions, he merely shook his head and continued puffing away. That was it! The rest of the exam had been quite challenging but nobody was trying to throw me any curveballs. It was all very fair and worthwhile. We came to one little problem toward the end, however. The final oral is supposed to be a "defense of dissertation", which in this case was my novel called Starfire, which had already actually been accepted for publication and had won first prize in the Utah Fine Arts Contest for Novel of the Year. Consequently the oral focused on classes in modern lit which I had developed and taught at Weber State during the doctoral along with an extensive annotated bibliography of one hundred books and about that many periodicals. Consequently after some discussion about the dissertation which already had pretty impressive credentials, the then department Chair Jim Fife said, "Here's what we'll do, Gordon. You take your dissertation in hand, move over to the corner of the room, and get a good grip on it. Then the rest of us will line up and try to wrench it away from you and that will be your defense of dissertation." Big laugh all around, and I decided things were going pretty well. Shortly afterward I was asked to leave the room and wait out in the hall while they made their big decision. I did as directed, but only waited for five minutes or so before the entire committee filed out and came walking down the hall with my Committee Chair Hal Moore in the lead. Thrusting out his hand he clasped my own and said, "Congratulations, Dr. Allred!" Quite a moment! Others offered similar kudos, and last of all came Ken Eble, former department chair, who had written me that first compelling letter three years 19 earlier. "Well, Gordon," he exclaimed, "We got quite a lot out of you didn't we?" "I surely hope so," I laughed, and knew that I had given it my best. All told I had devoted 45 hours to my masters and 112 hours for the doctorate, not including the just-mentioned related classes developed and taught at Weber. I had also logged in 45 hours on the doctorate at the Medill School of Journalism which I later abandoned as too far removed from my creative writing predilections. During my 48 years at Weber State I have had about 20,000 students and spilled an estimated 18 miles of red ink on papers, living to my last name. Among my most interesting and challenging eras there, in addition to the beginning years, involved the return of a number of retired military personnel, primarily officers from World War II. Included among them have been the following, all of whom wrote very effectively about their experiences. A major named Glen Fleek, who was marooned with several other men in the far north and eventually rescued via snow cat. They had undergone quite a dramatic several days in the wilderness. In his pre-war days, at one time in lower South America somewhere in Chile, he went swimming off the coast without a life-preserver, just swimming out into the sea. Along the way he was hailed by two men in a boat who advised him to climb in with them because the water was full of sharks. Later they dined together, and he discovered that one of them was a man named Zane Grey, popular author of American Westerns. Another student was John Christy, who had lost his wife and two children one wintry night on the highway when struck, of all things, by an ambulance. He had fought in three different wars, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. Upon being 20 released from Korean prison and dragging himself across the Demilitarized Zone, he looked back and gave the North Korean guards the fickle finger. He was in Cuba at the time of Fidel Castro and escaped by boat with a fellow by the name of Errol Flynn. Another student was Colonel John Jones from North Ogden. He was a bomber pilot over Germany and Vietnam and was shot down by so-called friendly fire over Cambodia in a storm. He somehow dragged himself from the plane, but doesn't remember how, and lay in a coma for several days in an area infested by four different types of venomous snakes, perhaps the greatest concentration of deadly reptiles in the world. He was finally discovered by natives who somehow carted him back to the military base across the canals, accidentally dumping him into them at times, and fishing him out again. Once rescues, he was found to have 26 broken bones. We became good friends and he visited us several times at my home here in Ogden. Another was a retired major named Jimmie Rees, who, I believe, was the first woman military pilot. She turned down an offer to become a movie star for that opportunity with our Air Force – a very tough but also charming, talented lady, and we also became close friends. I also remember Colonel Ed Hansen, who took several of my classes, graduated from Weber and began teaching high school in Davis County. He returned to my office one day a year or so later, and when I asked how he was doing, he replied, "Better." "Oh, are you not well?" I asked. "I'm fine. I'm just better. Isn't that what it's all about?" 21 Following is a listing of main awards during my 48 years at Weber that may be appropriate for a history of this nature: (1) Doctorate in Creative Writing and Modern Literature, University of Utah (2) Honorary Doctorate of Humanities, Weber State University, 2012 (3) Utah Author of the Year, League of Utah Writers, 1990 (4) First Place Utah Fine Arts Creative Writing Contest for novel Starfire; Second Place Poetry (5) Professor of the Year, Weber State University (6) Weber State University Presidential Distinguished Professor, 1980-81 (7) Outstanding Professor, Weber State University Students (8) Weber State University Award for Creative Writing (9) Lowe Award for Innovative Teaching (10) Henry Aldous Dixon Award for Teaching and Service (11) Ogden Mayor's Award in the Arts for Literature (12) Purple Paw Award for Excellent Service, Weber State Alumni Association (13) Hemingway Faculty Vitality Award, Hemingway Faculty Development Trustees (14) Phi Kappa Phi Scholastic Honor Society (15) Who's Who in the West Author of many articles and short stories plus 22 books including Kamikaze, former 22 best-seller on the life of a suicide pilot; and one that I treasure almost as much as my doctorate is the Fifth Degree Black Belt in Kenpo Karate, which taught me a lot about life, among other things. Throughout my association with Weber, this university has enlarged from about 500 students on the old campus to, I think, Ruby, we're at about 26,000 now, is that right? RL: We're right at about that figure. GA: And during my 48 years here I was blessed to have found my work – the vocation one does best and loves most. It is what I urge others including my students to strive for and where they can make their greatest contribution. I continually encourage them as well to consider the old truth that attitude if everything, that learning and progress may be everlasting and that love is the greatest virtue. Following are added names of significance during my tenure at dear old Weber. Roland and Helen Parry were like uncle and aunt to me and my older sister, Joan, who I call "Nan", and later our younger sister, Penny. We were neighbors on the old campus during my childhood, and again several years later in a little faculty enclave in upper Ogden during World War II and beyond, that included the Baddleys and Clair and Ruth Johnson. Helen and Roland gained considerable recognition for their All Faces West pageant staring famed Austrian baritone Igor Gorin as Brigham Young, which production my father sometimes narrated. Dr. Clair Johnson was also in the music department at Weber and earned his doctorate while living in our upper neighborhood. 23 My sister Joan, later a talented novelist and poet, acted in two or three of my father's plays including Dear Brutus, with him as one of the actors. When she runs off into the Enchanted Forest in search of him, not knowing where he has gone, a little four-year-old in the audience burst out blubbering loudly. I thought my sister and father were both lost forever! I still have in my attic the dress that she wore in that play. She also acted in my dad's production of Hayfever, and artist Lee Parkinson was so impressed with her performance, charm and colorful regalia, that he asked her to pose for a painting, which he later sold. Some members of the community acting in my father's plays included Julian Stephens and a Mr. Prothero (whose first name I don't remember) of the Ogden Police Department. Others included Catherine Northrop, Jim Andrews, and Russell "Soapy" Thorson, who called Joan Sugar Plum and me Deep Stuff. One Christmas morning he dropped by for a visit with my parents bringing me a mysterious present which he accidentally left in his car. When I kept pestering him to retrieve it for me, he mischievously protested, "I can't right now. I've got a bone in my leg." It was all very frustrating, but eventually he relented and obtained said gift which was a G-man gun that grated out yellow and blue sparks when you pulled the trigger. Soapy performed in at least one Hollywood movie as an early western cavalry commander, and Jim Andrews did some singing for the Alvino Ray Orchestra. The plays my wife Sharon starred in at Weber during the time she was there included Antigone, Joan of Lorraine, Masque of Kings, There Shall Be No Night, Pride and Prejudice and You Can't Take it With You. She received Weber's 24 Actress of the Year award, and later joined the staff of the Education Department. My father Thatcher produced the first play in the new Browning Fine Arts Center, A Man for All Seasons, which I thought was appropriate for him. Among the Weber faculty members performing in Dad's plays were the following: Dean Hurst, John Elzey, Bob Mikkelson, Farrell Collett, H.E.D.Redford, Jennnings Olson and the future Ogden Mayor, Merle Allen. Our parents spent quite a lot of time entertaining their students in our home, especially the one on upper Lake Street during my teenage years. Consequently my sisters and I became well-acquainted with a number of them. Among them were Dan Bailey, Aaron Roylance, who assisted in our various moves around town, Tony Belliston, and Wayne Bundy, a frequent family visitor and friend along with his wife the former Louise Lambert. My father was fondly known by colleagues as Mr. Theater and the M. Thatcher Allred Theater in the Browning Fine Arts Center was named in his honor, thanks especially to devoted and accomplished younger colleagues, John Elzey and Leonard Rowley. RL: O.K. You've filled us in quite a bit on Weber, your early days, and people that you've known. I've got quite a list here of presidents that you've worked with during your career here. I was wondering if you had any particular memories, starting with President Bill Miller, who was here from 1953 to 1971, so he would have been the one that was here when you first came. GA: I remember Bill well, and he was very kind and supportive. I remember on one occasion, he was afflicted with some malady and I visited him in the hospital. He 25 was very gracious almost as if I were the one needing the kind words and outlook. I also remember President Rod Brady well. He was partly responsible for the Thatcher Allred Theater being named as it was. He is the one from whom I received the Presidential Distinguished Professor Award. That was back about 20 years ago, and it was a $3,000 award. That would easily be worth $10,000 or maybe $15,000 today. Quite a sumptuous award, and I was extremely grateful. He attended one of my Biographical Writing classes in that connection, and afterward his only suggestion was that I might consider a different seating arrangement – maybe arrange the seats in a horseshoe shape instead of the standard pattern. That was his only suggestion, and he was most generous in his praise. Henry Aldous Dixon I came to know very well. He was known as Uncle Aldous, as mentioned earlier. His son, Dave, and I were hunting companions with some of our buddies. I just knew Leland Creer and Aaron Tracy in passing. They seem to have been there rather briefly when I was a youngster on campus, but I can still see what they looked like in my mind's eye. Others included Joe Bishop who was there for a time. I got to know him mainly through two of his sons who were students in my classes. RL: That was the time period when the president's house burned down, is that correct? GA: I'm trying to remember. Was that Joe Bishop? . RL: I think so. GA: Yes, the house up by the Stadium. RL: Yes. 26 GA: Okay, I do remember something about that. RL: It didn't make a big impression? GA: Well, it did. I just have a faulty memory. I don't think it burned down to ashes, but there was a fire in there. RL: Paul Thompson and Ann Milner were the ones who were here for a substantial period. GA: I visited with Paul on several occasions and we were going up into the Cache Valley area one time for an English Department retreat. I was the member of the faculty sitting next to him at meal time and I remember going out swimming later and diving off the ten-foot diving board. He was a very pleasant, down-to-earth individual. You mentioned in addition to Paul, Ann Milner. I got to know Ann quite well. A lovely, talented lady. As I mentioned earlier I joked with her a bit about the fact that she'd have to hire my grandson, Nicholas Thatcher Allred because of his middle name, the same as his father's, (my son Tony in the Business Department), and mine and my father's. She was quite amused at that, or at least was kind enough to fake it. She was a fine lady and I was impressed with her performance for ten years here. RL: She certainly garnered a lot of support for Weber State. GA: She did indeed. RL: I think that's important. Of course, as a female, I'm glad to see the first female president leaving a really good reputation when she stepped down. In your time here you talked about a lot of different students that you remember from the 27 greatest generation and so forth, but you also encountered students after several war situations. You were here during Vietnam, when some of our soldiers and military came back to a pretty dismal lack of welcome but students returning from Iraq and Afghanistan had a totally different experience. Did you see a difference in their performance as students? GA: No. I don't know that I had that many from Vietnam or from Iraq, but the ones that I mentioned from World War II were outstanding students and all very professional writers. RL: Okay. You mentioned coming here to 500 students and now that we've grown to 25,000 plus. Over the years did you notice any particular changes in the students: Was there a change in their level of innocence or maturity from the earlier days to when you left here? GA: I heard some of my colleagues say that student caliber is not as high now as when I came. I'm not sure that is the case. I had a lot of good students all through that 48 years, partly, perhaps, because I've become a better teacher and place higher demands on them. RL: You've talked about the awards you've received and so forth. Was there any particular thing that you are particularly proud of? GA: I am probably most grateful that I had so many fine colleagues and students whom I treasured and came to regard as friends and mentors who taught me a lot – not only my teacher friends, but some of my students. I mentioned Dean Hughes whom I'm very proud of, and who has written something like a hundred different 28 novels. RL: Were you involved with any of the reorganization or with campus governance? Any things that stand out in your mind? GA: No, I wasn't involved much in campus governance. I was on many committees at the departmental level. What I wanted to do most, however, was to teach and to write, and felt pleased by the way the two complimented each other. RL: You have seen a lot of Weber history in your time here going from divisions to departments and then the division into colleges and reorganization and so forth. You've also seen the different approaches in terms of the direction that Weber has gone. There seems to be a lot more town and gown cooperation and providing students for the workforce in Northern Utah and so forth. Are you pleased with what you've seen, or do you think things should have gone a different way? Do you have an opinion on that at all? GA: I can't provide you with the specific examples at the moment, but my general feeling is that 'weber has reached out and dealt with the community quite effectively. We've certainly had that kind of situation and positive reactions in sending students off campus and having them serve on a very practical vocational level for credit. Weber is becoming more and more part of the Ogden and greater community, and of course we have the Davis campus which is a part of that. RL: It seems like your time at Weber has certainly been a positive experience. Is there anything that you would have liked to have seen be different or is there anything that you would go back and change? 29 GA: I can't think of anything at the moment. If you give me 24 hours I might come up with something. RL: Well, if you have to think that long it's obviously not something that's been bothering you. GA: I think the growth of Weber has been wonderful, and it's become an organization we can certainly be proud of. We have a number of fine master's programs now and I fully believe we will eventually have doctorates. We are on par in many ways not only population-wise, but otherwise with Utah State and with the University of Utah, my old alma mater, where I spent seven years in undergraduate, masters and doctorate degrees. Brigham Young, of course, is a religious institution, but we have grown to the point where I think we're competing favorably with all these organizations. We're attracting people that we supposed we might not attract in time past. I can't see anything right now that I feel dissatisfied with. RL: For someone who has been here for so long, I would say that's a pretty positive statement to make. GA: I think so. And taking it one step further I am deeply gratified to have found my work here. I remember two different times we had on campus the noted educator Max Learner, and I always thought the name Learner was appropriate for him because he took joy in learning. Anyway, he spoke of sitting around the table with his family at night discussing ideas and how important they were. He above all was the one who helped me realize that we should find our work which is the thing you know best and love most, and I was extraordinarily fortunate in finding Weber State and having definitely been handed the opportunity by my good friend, Leland Monson, 30 who made it possible. There has rarely been a time – even when I was teaching 20 hours a quarter or semester that I failed to relish the experience. Even when I arrived here in the dark hours of morning, first one on campus, when I didn't feel a sense of expectation. I looked forward to mingling soon with students and colleagues, when I felt that there was a great sense of empathy, so I've urged students to acquire that same kind of thing in their own lives. Certainly, a lot of them have done so, and have become good friends of mine. I have colleagues whom I cherish and whom I can look to as mentors so it's all been very positive. There's never been a time when I have wished I had gone a different direction even though I have had different opportunities. I could have stayed with the Forest Service. I had different chances to teach at Utah State. At one point I had a probable opportunity to teach at the Institute across the street, but I had found my home at WSU – all that I hoped for, and have never regretted it. It's been 48 years of pretty much sheer joy. RL: Well, I don't think we can end on a better note than that. Thank you so much for coming to spend time with us today. GA: Thank you, Ruby. I'm honored and happy to be here with you and my wife, Sharon, my better three-fourths. RL: Thank you again. 31

Judith P. Mitchell, ca. 1984; Judith P. Mitchell, May 17, 2013 ; The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ; This is an oral history interview with Judith P. Mitchell conducted on May 17, 2013 by Ruby Licona. Judith discusses her career at Weber State from 1983 to 2011 in the Teacher Education program. ; 35p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Judith P. Mitchell Interviewed by Ruby Licona 17 May 2013 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Judith P. Mitchell Interviewed by Ruby Licona 17 May 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees, who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Mitchell, Judith P., an oral history by Ruby Licona, 17 May 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Judith P. Mitchell ca. 1984 Judith P. Mitchell May 17, 2013 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Judith P. Mitchell conducted on May 17, 2013 by Ruby Licona. Judith discusses her career at Weber State from 1983 to 2011 in the Teacher Education program. RL: I'm Ruby Licona and I am on the faculty here in the Stewart Library. Today is May 17, 2013 and we are speaking with Judith P. Mitchell, who retired from the Teacher Education program in 2011. She originally came to Weber State in 1983. We are looking forward to speaking with her and getting a good perspective on her years here at Weber. Our meeting this morning is in the Waterstradt Seminar in the Special Collections Library. Good morning, Judy, how are you? JM: Good morning. I am fine, thank you. RL: I am so glad you agreed to do this. We are trying to capture as many perspectives on Weber State and its history as possible and your name came up as someone that we should spend some time talking to. Why don't we begin with you telling us a little bit about your background, where you grew up and what might have drawn you to teaching? JM: I grew up at least part of the time in Ogden. My parents were from Ogden. When I was a child, my father went to medical school. We lived in Portland, Oregon for about seven years and in Philadelphia for a year while he completed his education. He was an ophthalmologist here in Ogden. We came back to Ogden when I was nine years old. I started the fifth grade at Polk School, went through the Ogden School District system and graduated from Ogden High School. Page 1 of 35 Afterward, I went to Stanford University and spent four years there. My major was music. It was a wonderful background and I've never regretted it for a minute because it probably did more to enhance my life and my children's lives than any other education I could have had at the time. I had lots of literature, music, art history and history classes. It was a nice foundation for whatever I decided to do next. After college, I came back to Ogden and went to work for Amalgamated Sugar. Those were the days when old Mr. Benning was still in charge of Amalgamated Sugar. He was an interesting man who still had the secretarial girls ironing the carbon paper so that it could be reused. He also had these little things that went on the end of the pencil so that they could use the pencil down to the last stub. I think he bought Amalgamated Sugar at a penny a share, so he came through all of those really hard years and he knew how to squeeze a nickel. After that, I was recruited by Bill Eccles to work for First Security Corporation as his executive secretary. First Security then moved to Salt Lake, so I moved to Salt Lake as well. At that time, I became reacquainted with the man I later married. He was a year or two older than I and I had known his sister. I have three children. Of course, they are all adults now and I have five grandchildren. When I was having my first baby, I quit working and I stayed home. When my two oldest children got into school, I was so interested in the process of how children learn to read that I thought, "Here I am with a Stanford Baccalaureate Degree and I could just whip down to Polk School and teach reading." I discovered that I had to have a state Page 2 of 35 license, so I came to Weber State. They accepted all my liberal education credits and I had to take the teacher education courses. I think I had to take ten hours of science which I had carefully avoided in college previously. They awarded me a Baccalaureate Degree in Science and then I went on to teach in the public schools in Weber School District. I taught at Marlon Hills Elementary and Valley View Elementary and ended up out in Hooper. I loved Weber School District. They gave me opportunities to learn and do different things. I'm not sure that the educational standards of the parents were necessarily the most important thing, but they were good parents and they were very supportive of the school and of teachers. The children were lovely children and were wonderful to teach. I had never spent any time in a farm community before and at that time Hooper was a farm community. Many raised sugar beets as a cash crop. In the fall, there would be mountains of sugar beets waiting to be picked up. I earned a Master's Degree from Utah State University in education and my thesis was on reading. Then, I decided to do a doctorate and did that at the University of Utah. I knew I liked the public schools. I liked teaching and I liked the kids, but I am restless by nature and I thought what I really wanted to do was teach in higher education because I thought I could make a difference. RL: Was it a Ph.D. or an Ed.D. that you earned at the University of Utah? JM: It was a Ph.D. I like going to school. I think most of us that are in the education field like going to school. We like to teach, but we also like to be taught. So, when Page 3 of 35 the opportunity came up for me to come to Weber on a trade for a year, I was delighted. My district had recommended that since I had the doctorate. RL: So you came here on a trade? How did that work? JM: Karen Neilson was a professor in the Teacher Education program and her field was secondary education and literacy. Of course, I was an elementary person, but that made little mind. It was my first experience with taking somebody else's course and somebody else's notes and trying to figure out what it was that I was supposed to teach. She would have things in her notes like, "Come tomorrow and it will be a big surprise about this or that." I would think, "What is the big surprise that I'm going to come up with?" She extended her contract with the DODS schools, so I had an opportunity to come to Weber. This was at the time of the WILKITS. The WILKITS were packets of materials and students moved through them at their own pace. Many of us from traditional education settings had difficulty with this notion because there were no set classes and we met with students individually. For some students it worked wonderfully and for others it didn't work well at all. RL: Was that something that was just here at Weber, or was that a trend? JM: It was a new trend across the country in some ways and people came from all over to see the programs at Weber. RL: Was it solely in education? JM: Yes, it was only in education. A group of professors in Teacher Education had come to Weber at about the same time and they decided they could develop this program. They received a big federal grant so that they could be freed up for an Page 4 of 35 entire year to develop all the program materials. The thing they didn't really have time to do was to develop the assessment materials that went with it. I went through this program when I came to Weber to get a license to teach. For me, it was good. I'm quite self-motivated and I balance my time well, but for many students it was a nightmare. There were no deadlines so you just moved through it at your own pace. RL: That has a similarity to some of our online courses now, doesn't it? JM: Absolutely. RL: You have students that are very motivated and jump right in. I've had students try to turn in all of the assignments in the first week of an eight week block. I tell them, "No, we need to go through some things first." JM: Yes, it is the same idea. As I said, there were no set classes, so you'd just make an appointment with your professor when you were ready to be checked out of that particular module. I think they transported those modules all over the world. There was a big program in the Middle East and Blaine Parkinson and Harley Adamson made many trips. The college received a big national award for the program. It was cutting edge at the time. RL: We did have people from Weber who were involved with opening up a university in the Middle East. JM: That's right. I think Blaine was one of them and he was dean of the College of Education at one time. As some of us came to campus, we looked at teaching and learning differently and felt the need to have more set classes where we saw more than one student at a time. It was very time consuming for the faculty to Page 5 of 35 meet one-on-one with students. By the end of the fifth or sixth year after I came, I didn't see any more modules. RL: Were they just kind of eased out? JM: They were. People had different feelings about them. Like anything else, if you've had a hand in developing something you're a real advocate. RL: You have more ownership of it. JM: Absolutely. RL: Who were some of your colleagues when you came here? JM: Some of them have been here a long time. Luan Ferrin, Jimmie Merrill, Keith Burnett, and Burdett Johnson all came to Weber at about the same time. RL: You mention a lot of men. Were there not as many women in education at that time or just not in higher education? JM: When I went to work for Weber district, there wasn't a single woman administrator in Weber School District. That's a big school district. I think there were a few more women in Ogden School District. As a child, I had a woman principal and it wasn't uncommon at all. Later, it seemed like you didn't see many women in administration. We saw a lot of women teachers and still do, but not too many administrators. RL: There were some women in upper level positions during World War II as a result of the men being gone, but then I think it reversed. JM: Yes. I'm sure it did. It was pretty much a group of men. There were two or three women and they had been here a long time. They had been here at the time for this development. Page 6 of 35 RL: Did the men help to mentor you or was it more adversarial? JM: It wasn't adversarial. I'll have to say that Don Sharpes was the one who really sat me down and said, "Now, this is how you do your vitae and how you keep your records and your file. Oh by the way, the ladies room is down there." RL: That's essential orientation. JM: I didn't find that any one colleague did as much mentoring as they might have. Cordell Perkes hired me. He was a chair at the time. He was a very good colleague and was helpful. Dick Jones was the dean, at the time, in the College of Education. He was also very helpful as far as I was concerned. When Dick was named Dean of the College of Education, there were two other faculty members that aspired to be dean, but they were not selected. I think Bob Smith was the Vice President of Academic Affairs, the position now call Provost. He made the choice and I think Dean Jones had a hard time because there were a lot of good 'ol boys who felt they were cheated and that they should have the position. They didn't like the way Dick ran the finances. I'm not sure it would have mattered what he did or how he did it, they wouldn't have liked it. For me, as a new faculty member, he was a good dean. He gave me a lot of opportunities to do different kinds of things and I appreciated that. Cordell Perkes had come in not too long before I and he was very supportive of changes and was looking for new ways to do things and understood that there's a freedom in being an academic. I think that one of the difficulties with the WILKIT system was the fact that there wasn't any academic Page 7 of 35 freedom in terms of how we did things in a classroom. That kind of flew in the face of what most of us believed. RL: You came in 1983. When I arrived in 1990, we had three Master's programs. That would have been just seven years after you got here. I understand that you were one of the ones that established the master's program in education. JM: Well, not really. When I came, the Master's in Education was a combined program with Utah State University. There were three people from USU and three from Weber that sat on a steering committee. Within a year or so, I did do that, which was wonderful and it taught me a lot about the program. Weber faculty members were doing most of the teaching and that gave us some grounds for saying that it should be Weber's program since we were doing the work with the students and teaching the classes. Don Sharpes was hired to head up that combination of faculty from the two universities and to run the program. I did have that nice opportunity to get in from the beginning on the whole thing. When the program was finally declared independent, I did direct the master's program for about 13 or 14 years. RL: Maybe that's where I got the impression that you had helped to establish it. You were in on the ground floor though. JM: Yes. At the beginning, I had that opportunity along with the chair and somebody else. I was Chair of Elementary Education during some of that time when we were still a part of Utah State's program. Page 8 of 35 RL: What other kinds of things were happening on the campus that you might have been involved with early on? There were some changes happening in the 1970's and 1980's with the establishment of the Faculty Senate. JM: That must have been earlier because when I came, there were stories about Joe Bishop wiring the Faculty Senate room where we held meetings. The reason it all came out was because somebody went to a little party after the Faculty Senate meeting and there was a lot of information that was out. When I came they were still reeling from President Bishop and the kinds of things that went on while he was president. I think he was a man who was very suspicious about what faculty might do. RL: From what I understand, he was trying to pull in the reins at a time when the Faculty Senate was starting to gain more academic freedom and more faculty involvement and control. JM: No question. When I got involved in Faculty Senate, it was one of the best things that happened to me academically. For one thing, I worked with awfully interesting people. Secondly, the Faculty Senate had gained a great deal of power working with Rod Brady. RL: I believe he left in about 1987 or 1988. JM: Then Stephen Nadauld came. We became a university at that point. RL: That's right. That happened toward the end of 1990. JM: There were a lot of changes at the university. We were suddenly looking at ourselves differently. I think there had been an attitude that it was just an extension of Harrison High. Part of that grew out of how faculty looked at Page 9 of 35 themselves and how they looked at the school, not so much the townspeople perhaps. RL: Recently, I've heard a couple of things on television that have grated on my nerves. There was a young man on one of the news programs that grew up in Ogden. He was presenting an award of some kind and asked the young woman where she was going to be going to college and she said, "Weber State." He said, "Oh, Harrison High School." If I had been there I think I would've throttled him. Not too long after that I heard someone on KUER, University of Utah's radio station, referring to us as Weber State College. I thought, "We've been Weber State University for 22 years now. Attitudes have to change sometime and people like you need to be taken to the wood shed." JM: In many ways faculty were their own worst enemies because they were the ones who perpetuated it. It was a shame. Suddenly, university status did a great deal for Weber in terms of attitudes. At the time, Weber State College was the biggest four year college in the United States granting baccalaureate degrees. RL: They had a large enrollment. JM: Exactly. RL: There were a lot of things that were attractive then that still are now. The trend to try and keep classes smaller and community involvement and different things that have been developed here on campus are still attractive. When we were going through the process to become a university there was a lot of squawking from University of Utah and Utah State University about something being written in that would prevent Weber State from becoming a doctoral granting university Page 10 of 35 and that there were not to be massive numbers of graduate degrees. We haven't grown greatly, but we do have nine graduate degrees now. Certainly, the accent has been on programs that add to the workforce and meet the need of not just the immediate community, but of the state with the emphasis on providing an educated workforce. I guess that's kind of an extension of starting out your program as a Utah State program. JM: I think that's true. The other thing that's interesting is that if you look at the graduation statistics at Weber, half of them are still two year degrees. They are not baccalaureate degrees at all. RL: Some students do go on to get their baccalaureate. JM: A state the size of Utah could hardly afford two research universities. One of the things I think the Board of Regents has done especially well is that they have taken a look at programs and tried to avoid duplication. There is one medical school in Utah and no dental school. There's one law school. I think those kinds of things make sense because a state the size of Utah really can't afford to run two medical schools or two law schools. RL: Brigham Young University does have a law school. It's privately funded, but even so, it is a situation where we've got a couple million people in Utah. JM: It's growing, heaven knows. It's a tiered system. California has the same kind of tiered system. You have your research universities and you have your state universities and it seems that's where the growth is happening, perhaps more than we need it right now. Utah Valley University is just huge and Southern Utah is a master's granting university again. Page 11 of 35 RL: Of course, Dixie has gone from a two-year program to a master's granting university. JM: Price is a satellite for Utah State which is different, but the fact that Dixie is getting university status in many ways is rather surprising. A lot of the people in St. George are snowbirds, but apparently they seem to think they have a population to support a university. RL: It is the same administrator down there that helped Weber State become a university. JM: Yes, Stephen Nadauld is there. It's interesting, I think, that Utah has done a pretty good job in figuring most of this out. I have great respect for the University of Utah and Utah State University and they have significant programs that are highly rated and they should be. I am proud of Weber. When I look at what's happened in the last couple years, I think about what happened with the music department. RL: There's a new advertisement showing our resident piano prodigy that says, "Chose Weber State Over Julliard." When you see that it picks you up. JM: It makes you proud. Fan Ya's success has resulted in more students coming for the music program because of how well this young woman has done. RL: She's got the support of the administration. JM: No question about it. It has been helpful. On top of that, I've never seen a girl or a boy work harder than she does. She's earned every inch of it. RL: We also have a top-notch nursing program. Getting back to the College of Education, are there students that you had in those early years that you have Page 12 of 35 learned about their accomplishments and whom you feel got the basis for them here? JM: Absolutely. That first year I taught at Weber, I taught secondary students. Depending on their major, many were a challenge in a literacy course. In a lot of other courses they were as well and the students would say, "Well, in our majors we never write." It was a challenge for me. One of my very finest students was Jeff Stephens, who is now superintendent of Weber School District. He got his master's here and he went off and got his doctorate. There are many that I see who are school principals, wonderfully successful classroom teachers, and reading coaches. I've been teaching the level two reading coaching class for about five or six years now and most of them have Master's degrees when they come back to get this extra certification. They are the cream of the crop. They're bright, hard-working and they make a huge difference in school. RL: They come back to Weber State, and I don't think that's necessarily just for the location. JM: I don't either, although that plays a role. RL: I think they are looking for a quality program. JM: I think so. Weber has made a huge effort to maintain the class sizes. I think the faculty reaches out to students in good ways. There are not classes that are taught by students who do not speak English which is a huge advantage. One of my boys did a doctorate at the University of Utah and in the last year he said, "It's a do-it-yourself thing. This fellow doesn't speak any English at all and it really is a do-it-yourself educational program." That doesn't happen at Weber. Faculty Page 13 of 35 teach the classes, which I think matters. I think our graduates that are out in the field tend to think, "I did well as an undergraduate at Weber. I'll go back and do some graduate work there." One of the things I am most proud of was that in our Master of Education program, we maintained high standards. Students did a thesis or a project which was very scholarly. Everybody at that stage knows how to take classes and how to pass classes. The thing that really separates the men from the boys is doing some research and writing about it. I'm proud of that. I think that our master's program in education can stand up to anybody's. RL: The emphasis at Weber has changed somewhat in the last 20 years and there's more of an emphasis for the faculty to have more scholarship and research involvement. That still hasn't changed their role with the students. JM: You're absolutely right. RL: Certainly, Weber has won some kudos for bringing the National Undergraduate Research program here to Weber. Also, the Undergraduate Literature Conference we have every year is still used as a cookie cutter model for other places. In Teacher Education, you had the ISTE international group of people here from Australia, New Zealand, Europe, and Africa. That has to be a feather in you cap. JM: I think so. Along that whole line is that the College of Education has managed their endowment well and it has given faculty opportunities to attend conferences in a variety of places both in this country and abroad. They've had opportunities to make contacts with scholars and teachers and that's been valuable. Page 14 of 35 RL: Has Teacher Education done anything in terms of cooperative programs? Are there sister universities or programs that you've maintained? JM: I think the one thing I can think about is when I first came to Weber, one of the faculty members originally came from Arizona and she had done a lot of work with Native Americans on the reservations. She was a really brilliant lady and her field was reading. When she came to Weber, she wrote some grants and we ended up taking our teacher education program to Blanding. I was the new kid on the block, so I taught quite a bit in Blanding and Bluff, which was an eye-opener for me. Most of them were Navajo students seeking education degrees in order to teach. At that time in Blanding, there was an elementary school and I would say maybe 80 percent of the youngsters were Native American children. There wasn't a single aid, teacher, or administrator that was Native American. In Bluff, I think 98 percent of the children were Native American kids and there not a single teacher or aid that was Native American. We took that program down for a number of years and we trained a number of teachers, which I think changed the whole educational environment down there. Some of them didn't end up in teaching, but ended up in federal agencies where their educational background was valued. RL: They advanced beyond what had been available previously. JM: It was interesting because the way the Pell Grants worked then was that they got the money no matter if they completed a class or not. Quarter after quarter, you'd have some of the same people in the class because they never finished a class, but they got their Pell Grant so that they could go to school. It also supported Page 15 of 35 them for food, rent, and all of their living expenses. The Navajo culture is very matriarchal and many of the men didn't work or there wasn't work for them. There were high rates of alcoholism. The women would come to class and the men would stand along the back wall like, "Don't you teach my wife anything, it'll change the world." Many of the women were very ambitious and looked at their children and thought, "It's going to be up to me or these kids are going to end up like their not very good dad." We had quite a bit of success with that. Many times, these teachers would come up in the summer to take classes on the campus. They'd bring their kids and live in the dorms. It was a big sacrifice for them. It was wonderful for us. Certainly, it was an opportunity for me, who came from a background where I knew very little about Native American populations. When I went to college, it was very un-diverse. We were mostly white, middle-class kind of people. RL: We've been lucky at Weber that several of our presidents have put an emphasis on diversity and unity. I know when I got here, I started looking around at our student body and someone had mentioned that Weber and Ogden School Districts were something like 25 percent Hispanic, Latino, etc. When I looked around on campus, there were fewer than one percent of our students that fit into that category. Certainly, it's not up to 20 or 25 percent, but we are more between 5 and 10 percent now. JM: Exactly. Families that perhaps never anticipated college for their kids are looking at education differently. Page 16 of 35 RL: We are certainly seeing a lot more brown faces, Asian students, Pacific Islanders, etc. I think that changes the flavor of the University in the right direction. In regard to that, you started here when we had President Brady and when he left Stephen Naduald came and then Paul Thompson and F. Ann Milner. That was a big feather in Weber's cap too, having a female president. JM: She was a very successful female president. It was at a time when Eastern Utah had hired a woman who ran through the money like water through the creek. When she left, that little college was in horrible condition because the money had been spent. I never went to a conference anywhere in the United States that she wasn't there. I would think, "This isn't your field. Why would you be interested in this?" Ann came with an excellent background and she'd been well-trained by Paul. She was a very successful woman not only on our campus, but across the state and with the legislature. RL: She was well-respected. JM: Absolutely. It is a feather in Weber's cap. No question. RL: As far as the different administrators and the type of ship they sailed in terms of their styles, did that affect your career in any way? JM: I think it did. When I was active in the Faculty Senate and I was faculty chair for three years and co-chair for three years. RL: You were the second woman to do that? JM: Yes. I think Rosemary Conover was the first one. I had a good six year run, which was nice. Paul Thompson was the president and he very much believed in shared governance. He gave us lots of opportunities to be heard and he was Page 17 of 35 good to work with in that he felt that there were a number of things about which the faculty needed to have an equal voice, to have a say and to be able to ask the hard questions. For most of us at that time working in faculty governance, we had great opportunities. RL: I think he was more willing to accept some of the suggestions coming out of the Senate. I remember at one point I was chairing the Academic Standards Committee and I was given a list of 13 or 14 things that needed to be accomplished. That was about the time of the Gulf War and we were having to come up with policies regarding students who were pulled out of class and sent to the Middle East and what were we going to do with them when they came back as far as tuition or letting them finish classes. There were a lot of major things that were being determined then that our committee was involved with. We ended up coming up with the tiered admission thing so that we could still meet the mission of the University, but take on the new issues that we were facing. I think that was a time when people did have a voice. As far as your involvement in heading up the Faculty Senate, were there major things occurring that you needed to deal with? What were they and what were some of the outcomes? JM: When I started in affairs of Faculty Senate, Tom Burton was the chair. He appointed me to the Curriculum Committee and that was both curriculum and general education at the time. RL: So you came in as a new faculty member first? JM: Yes. Then I became chair of the Curriculum Committee. At the time, curriculum and general education were combined into one committee. Of course, we didn't Page 18 of 35 have the technology, so everything would be delivered to my office and there would be a stack of papers to read through. Those were very different times. I look back at the number of trees we must have killed. Tom was a good mentor and a good trainer. Curriculum and General Education was a great place to start and became something that I continued to work in while I was at Weber, until the last few years. One of the things that happened during the time I was in Faculty Senate was the big conversion to semesters from quarters. I still maintain that most of my students, even some of my graduate students, have a ten week attention span, not a 15 or 16 week attention span. The state said it would cheaper and of course it wasn't cheaper, it cost tons of money to make the conversion. It was far more complex than any of us thought. We made a lot of presentations about the change and why not. At the time, I was on the State Committee for General Education and that was a wonderful time because it was the first faculty committee that was under the Board of Regents. Each of the colleges and universities was represented. I was on that for about 15 years and we did a lot of things. The legislature decided the institution needed to have some common numbers, particularly for general education courses. We did a lot of that without wrecking people's individual programs. Most students in Utah at some time or another attend another university somewhere in the state. With some common numbers in those undergraduate courses in general education, the transfer was easy. For me, personally, working with the faculty leaders from across the state was a wonderful experience. They were the brightest of the bright. It gave me access to Page 19 of 35 friendships and acquaintances that I never would have had and it allowed me to know who to talk to at each university when something came up. Another group I really liked working with was the group of Faculty Senate presidents. In fact, that's where I met our present president. He was the President of the Faculty Senate of the University of Utah when I was active at Weber. He was a good chemistry professor and very bright, so now for him to be our president is an interesting kind of thing. Anyway, they were wonderful, interesting, smart people that had lots of ideas. We had a lot of respect. We were appointed by the Board of Regents and then appointed within our universities. Bob Smith put me on, so that was a long time ago. I learned a lot about higher education and I also learned a lot about the curriculum and systems within our state and how well most of them work. The change from quarters to semesters was also a big deal. RL: That was in the mid-1990's, wasn't it? JM: Yes. I think it was about 1995. That was a really big switch. In some ways, it made us come into a commonality with other universities within our state. I have to laugh because all the arguments about why semesters are so much better than quarters are a crock. There are wonderful universities across the United States that are still on quarters like the University of Oregon, Stanford, Columbia, etc. RL: Judy, you've talked a little bit about your involvement with the Faculty Senate as chair and the General Education/Curriculum Committee after you stepped down as chair. At about that time, we had a big push with the diversity requirements in Page 20 of 35 the classes and the Curriculum and General Education became separate committees and they are very involved. JM: Yes, and I went back on General Education just a few years ago. RL: You mentioned that, so what I wanted to ask you how that worked out for you and did you stay involved with that until you left? JM: Yes, until about last year, I continued to serve on senate committees. I served on a number of senate committees, which was wonderful. I think they seemed to value my background and what I'd already done and it worked well for me because I really enjoyed working with my colleagues. During the time I was senate chair, I was also head of Teaching and Learning because our person left. I was wearing two hats and I had three offices instead of two. It was a busy time. My department was good about the release time and at that time the Faculty Senate had some money, so we did get release time, which was a huge help, I couldn't have done most of what I did if I hadn't had some release time. RL: This was during the time of Paul Thompson's presidency? JM: Yes it was. RL: Then he left and Ann Milner stepped up to the plate and hit a few home runs. JM: Right. While Paul was president and Eisler was the provost, I worked a lot with Eisler and when it came time to name a new president, it was between him and Ann, do you remember that? RL: Yes. I had been off campus then for a little while. Page 21 of 35 JM: He was the provost and was an academic and Ann was someone who came through Continuing Education and Paul had mentored her wonderfully. Of course, she is a bright woman and she did a good job. RL: She had been involved with Development. JM: She had all of those kinds of things on that side of the university. RL: Those are important too. JM: Well, raising money is always important in universities. For Ann, I was surprised when she stepped down when she did simply because the capital campaign was her baby. I was just really surprised that she didn't see it to the end. RL: She did mention when she first started that she would take it and put in ten good years and that's what she did. Were you involved with any of the things that she helped to develop? JM: I've been on the University Capital Campaign Committee, so if raising money is part of it, yes. I am head of the committee for the College of Education even though I've retired. RL: Speaking of the College of Education, you would have been through a few deans there. JM: That's one way to put it, yes. When I came Dick Jones was the dean. As I said, he came in without a level playing field in many ways because there were two faculty members that thought they should have been the dean. That made it really hard. He did some things really well and some things less well, but it's true of all of us. There was finally a vote of no confidence and I think that Bob Smith decided it was probably time for him to go before there was a formal vote of no Page 22 of 35 confidence. It wasn't over anything dishonest or anything like that. There were just enough differences so he left. Then they hired Green, and he was the first African American dean on campus. Again, like any dean, he had his interests and did some things really well and some things not so. Jack Rasmussen was the next. He had been here as a faculty member so most of us had worked with him. He was a good teacher and he seemed to be a good administrator, so when he applied for the position we were interested. He was the dean in North Dakota at a university. We were happy to have him back. The known is always kind of nice and we knew what to expect. I think he's been an effective dean. I think he's had the respect of the faculty, he's good to work with, and he's a dependable person. RL: How long has he been here now? JM: I'm not sure. I think he's been here for maybe seven years. He's the senior dean on campus. RL: You were talking about his being supportive. Was there a difference in the level of support you got from each of those deans? JM: I had wonderful support from all of them, I can't complain at all. There was always money for me to present at conferences. Ray Reutzel, who was a professor at Utah State and I applied for the editorship of, The Reading Teacher, which is the premier journal of the International Reading Association and received the appointment. That was a five year thing and they came out and visited with the President, Provost and Dean to make sure that I would have the support I would need to do the job. They did the same at Utah State for Ray. I Page 23 of 35 had release time for it and I had financial support from International Reading. My dean could have said no. It was when Green was the dean. I guess Eisler must have been the provost and Paul was the president and they met with all of them to say, "Can she do this? Will you give her support and release time?" There was no question. It was a prestigious journal to begin with and it was nice that westerners were nominated and chosen to do this. I learned a great deal from that experience. Reading has been the thing that I've been most interested in, so that was a wonderful thing. RL: It's a basis for many things in education, isn't it? JM: I think it's the basis for learning when it comes down to it. I think for the youngsters who struggle it isn't just learning how to read, it's how to use literacy. In your position you know all about that. The other thing I've had a lot of support on for 28 years is running a reading and writing conference every summer. The State has given me some money and Weber has given me some money and support. This is the first summer that we haven't done it. We've brought to campus outstanding people in the field of reading and writing to do the conference. That has been a wonderful thing for our students and for our teachers in the field. Things like that I will miss terribly. I do miss them. RL: Were there other national programs that you were involved with that you got particularly good support for? JM: Yes there surely were. Of course, going to conferences is part of it and presenting at conferences takes support. I was on quite a few national Page 24 of 35 committees for reading and literacy and children's books. Those people tend to be a community that knows one another. For me, it was a broadening kind of thing. It gave me people I could call on to hire for my reading conference. Probably the thing that gave both Ray and me the most exposure was that editorship. Ray went on and served on the Board of Directors of International Reading. He has an endowed chair at Utah State. He's a good scholar and good teacher and all those kinds of things. RL: You've mentioned that you're retired, but you're still here on campus. JM: Yes, but I am coming to the end. I had a substantial grant from the State to run the level two reading endorsement classes. There are three of them. There's a research class, an internship and a professional development class. The audience for those classes consists of people that have a level one endorsement in reading and are aspiring to be reading coaches in the schools. The level one classes can be taught within the school districts. For a long time we taught some of them and I have to laugh because I still see my syllabi floating around being used in the schools by somebody else. Level two has to be taught through the universities. Weber held on to those, but the problem is that the size of the audience for the classes is not very predictable and often not very big. Weber State University serves Box Elder, Davis, Weber and a few from Ogden school districts. RL: Of course, we now have an information literacy requirement for graduation here and to have the local school district do away with all of the media specialists… Page 25 of 35 JM: It doesn't make a bit of sense. Particularly in a district where there are more needy children than any district along the Front. They need those people. They are wonderfully well-trained. They are superb teachers. RL: The Regents said, "We need this computer and information literacy." One of the things that we were finding was that they were coming to us from the high schools unprepared. One of my colleagues wrote in a letter to the newspaper about seeing students come in and they've already written the paper and then they do the research because they need three references to put with the paper. Something is not right. JM: Something is not right. RL: Interesting times in the Ogden School Districts. JM: They have been interesting times for a long time. I know they are dealing with a lot of things that are difficult. I had a friend who was an administrator and we were talking about second language. He said, "It isn't the second language that's the problem, it's the poverty that's the problem." There are a lot of needy children and they need excellent teachers. Those media people are excellent teachers. They're cutting out all the part-time reading coaches as well. There are 240 and if they have them for 30 hours they don't have to pay any benefits. The whole thing is disgusting as far as I'm concerned. RL: In terms of your time at Weber, it sounds like you've accomplished a lot in the 30 years that you've been here on campus. Are there things that you were involved with that didn't succeed? Page 26 of 35 JM: Well, who's going to say yes to that? I'm kidding. There are certainly things that were successful at different levels. Some of the things I look back and I wonder why I ever opened my mouth. RL: It's perfectly alright for you to talk about that because it was something that you were concerned about. Were there things that you wish you had done and weren't able to for financial reasons or maybe Weber couldn't get involved because it wasn't the right time and place? As far as the big picture, were there other things that you would have liked to have seen? JM: When I came to Weber, I still had three youngsters at home. I was pretty place bound. After that, I went through a divorce and my two boys were then grown and out of the house and my daughter was in college. I started late with my academic career. I stayed home until my youngest was seven and didn't go back to work. Then, I had to get a license to teach school. I was place bound for a number of years. I think had I done things earlier, I might have left Weber and had some other kinds of experiences. At the time, with my personal life, when it was time to do those sorts of things, it was late to do them. I loved Weber and quite frankly, I think, "Where would I have had the opportunities that Weber has given me?" I had never thought I planned my life particularly well if you want to know the truth. I've kind of fallen into things without as much planning as I might have done. When I finally decided to go back to school and to teach, the hook that really was there for me was that I was fascinated with how children learn to read. What is it that happens in our brains? In watching children who struggle, what is Page 27 of 35 the difference in how they look at the world or how they process everything from children who don't seem to struggle? Luckily, my children did not struggle, and I did not struggle. Having worked with youngsters in school who do struggle, I thought it would be tough if I worked with these kids in school and then had to go home and work with my own, but my children did wonderfully academically. I really liked Weber and with a university this size, you can make some differences. When I was in college and got this music degree I could have taught piano maybe, but I didn't know how to do anything. I didn't know how to type when I graduated from college. I went to Wright-MacMahon Secretarial School in Beverly Hills for a year and learned how to do all kinds of secretarial things. RL: Was this after you finished you bachelor's at Stanford? JM: Yes. That's how I happened to come home and work for Amalgamated Sugar and then for Security Corporation. I had wonderful jobs. RL: When you mentioned being an executive secretary, I was wondering if that position had required a Bachelor's degree. JM: Well, let me tell you some of the things I did for First Security. I worked for Willard Eccles and I wrote all the Board and Executive Board minutes for the corporation, although, I never went to a meeting. He did all the public relations and advertising for the corporation and I learned a lot. I probably would have gone on working for First Security, but I married and when my first baby was born, I didn't work again for another ten or fifteen years. When I came back to school, perhaps if I had been more thoughtful about what I really wanted to do, I might have done something other than education. I Page 28 of 35 don't know. My father was a physician. The summer between high school and college, I worked in the newborn nursery at the old Dee Hospital and just loved it. I wanted to go to nursing school. My father wouldn't hear of it. Those were the days. He said, "No, you're not going to go to nursing school. You have the wrong thumbs for the bed pans." So, I didn't do that. In college, I had developed a lot of other interests as well. I look back and think probably what I would have done in a different era would be to have gone to medical school. I was bright enough to and I think I would have really liked it. RL: The mentality then was that women in medicine were nurses. JM: They were odd ducks if they went to medical school. My father just couldn't see that for sour apples. He was a physician and he couldn't see this thing at all. Later on, we had a lot of talks about this whole thing and his outlook changed. I had one female friend in law school and a couple in business school. Most of them were in more traditional majors for women. I have a niece who graduated in law and my daughter is in architecture, both nontraditional women's fields. My generation was different. RL: Well, we have touched on a lot of different things. What about your time at Weber? Are there things that you might have done differently other than having gone somewhere else? I've seen a lot of people here on campus who leave and come back because this is a great place to be. JM: And I am not sure that I would have left. I liked the administrative experiences I had. I was department chair, and I directed the graduate program for 13 or 14 years. I had a lot of freedom on that because we developed a thesis system. Page 29 of 35 When I got here they were doing some little paper that was paper bound and we said, "No, this does not look like professional scholarly work." We did a lot with curriculum and all that was very satisfactory to me. The other thing I guess I could mention are civic kinds of things that have mattered to me. I was president of the Junior League before I ever came to Weber. I've been on the symphony board for a long time. I'm a Commissioner for Landmarks for Ogden City and I'm on the Heritage Board. Those things are interesting to me. I've been involved with the music department simply so I could return to my roots. I've had fun knowing the people in the music department and the students. I'm really quite busy. I think the thing that scared me most about retiring was, "What if I don't have anything to do?" Of course, I've been teaching classes, but I won't at the end of this semester because there's no money to do it, which makes me sad because I just loved my students. The reading coaches were the brightest of the bright. They were just wonderful. My connection with the school districts, particularly with the Weber and the Davis districts has been very satisfying and keeps your hand in to see what's happening out there. I will miss that. I still serve on the Board of the State Reading Association and I get to see all of these great people I've either had in school or known. They have moved ahead and have done wonderful things in their lives and I am proud of that. RL: That's wonderful. Sometimes you can go to a banquet and pick up lots of things and you walk away and you're still hungering for something and then there are other times when things fall into place and you can say that you were satisfied. Page 30 of 35 JM: I think that is absolutely true and I still see a number of my colleagues from Weber. One thing that was terrific about the Faculty Senate work was that I had the opportunity to meet people in all departments. When I arrived, I was shocked that there was so little communication between the College of Education, particularly Teacher Education, and across campus. It just didn't happen. Accreditation meant that it had to happen and working in the Senate allowed me opportunities to meet people across the campus that I never would have known. RL: I think with things like the Community Involvement Program and the Teaching and Learning Forum and all of the programs now for helping people develop online classes and so forth, people are interacting a lot more than previously. JM: Yes. I think they are too. Ruby, were you here when we did Writing Across the Curriculum? RL: I was. JM: That was a wonderful time for exactly what you're talking about. RL: It brought people together from different parts of the campus and took you someplace and you sat down and you could exchange ideas for how to teach or how to develop particular processes and so forth. It was a good program. I think Teaching and Learning came from that because Lee McKenzie was the one who developed that. JM: She was a lovely lady. That was a tragic kind of thing. RL: It was. When you said that you did Teaching and Learning Forum for a year, I wondered whether that might have been about the time that Lee had to leave. Page 31 of 35 JM: I can't remember what the circumstances were, but suddenly we didn't have a director and Teaching and Learning fell on the Faculty Senate. We were doing whatever we were doing to find someone to head it up as I remember. It was an eye opener to me. I'd served on it at one time or another before that, so it wasn't completely new or anything. RL: It was a great program, and I think Lee did a great job establishing it. JM: She did. I remember that one of the faculty members who was perhaps the most changed and it was most surprising was a fellow that was in accountancy. He used it widely in his accountancy classes. You would think it would have been history or English, but I'll never forget that. He was such a proponent of the whole thing. I thought that was a really good program. I liked all of the things that mixed us up with other disciplines. I thought it really mattered. RL: I think there's more of that kind of thing happening now and it can only strengthen the college. JM: Absolutely. I think that this community outreach is a tremendous thing. I am really curious to see how this is going to go downtown because I guess those spaces are about completed on Washington. Is it going to be Continuing Education classes or Adult Education? I have no idea what's going to go in there, do you? RL: I don't. JM: It's wonderful space. I thought, "Good." Remember when we were in the basement of the mall? Page 32 of 35 RL: Yes. I don't know if you were involved or remember in the very early nineties, before we had the whole Community Involvement Program, we had some of our athletes working at the Lewis School helping children with teaching. JM: I do remember that. There was faculty sending their students out to look at things. In Education, we'd send them out because they've got to be in the schools. Other disciplines were doing a lot of things as well. RL: I like it here. JM: I don't blame you. I like it here too. I think it's a good setting for students. There are more and more kinds of things to engage the students. I liked the programs where they put classes together in a cohort for new freshman. Those kinds of things have been successful. They've helped kids not to get lost and provided a way for them to become connected with other students, particularly if they're students that just commute. I'm happy to see the new dorms because I think it's more attractive to live on campus than ever before. I think that's good. We have a lot of administrators and faculty that have done good things to promote what's happening on our campus. It's a beautiful campus and when I was walking over here today I thought, "What a pretty time of year with the stream and the pond and the beautiful trees and bushes." It's a beautiful campus. RL: My brother was trying to explain to someone that I lived in an area where every place you look is a postcard. JM: What a compliment. RL: Then he said, "No, come to think of it, she lives in a postcard." Page 33 of 35 It sounds as though your years here have been good and I'm glad to hear it. Certainly, if you think of things later that you would have liked to have told us about, please get in touch. I want to thank you for taking the time to do this. JM: You're welcome. It's been my pleasure. RL: It's been a good program for us and it's good when we get someone like you who's been involved across the board and can help to build that picture of what Weber State has been over the years. JM: Don't you feel it has come a great, far distance in terms of sophistication? RL: Absolutely. JM: I think that it's become more scholarly. RL: It's certainly not Harrison High any longer, is it? JM: It surely is not. One of the things that I think has made a difference is that the standards for tenure have changed. That was another thing we did in those years in making Weber a more scholarly university—higher demands. RL: We've been able to maintain some of the earlier things, regardless. JM: For teaching there is no question about it. The standards for hiring people have become more comparative with other universities. When University of Utah or Utah State complains about Weber I have to laugh because I think of the numbers of faculty that were trained in those two institutions and if there's something wrong with this then it's their fault, not ours. RL: We keep showing up on more and more national lists and I think partly it's because of people like you. Page 34 of 35 JM: Well, thank you, that is a compliment. As I say, like you, I have not regretted my years at Weber. I've been proud of them. RL: Thank you for being with us today. JM: You're welcome. Page 35 of 35

Karen B. Lofgreen, May 9, 2014 ; The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ; The following is an oral history interview with Dr. Karen Lofgreen conducted on May 9, 2014 by Ruby Licona. Karen discusses her time at Weber State as a student from 1951 to 1953 and her experiences as a professor in the Teacher Education department from 1979 to 2005. ; 41p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Karen B. Lofgreen Interviewed by Ruby A. Licona 9 May 2014 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Karen B. Lofgreen Interviewed by Ruby A. Licona 9 May 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Lofgreen, Karen B., an oral history by Ruby A. Licona, 9 May 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Karen B. Lofgreen May 9, 2014 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Dr. Karen Lofgreen conducted on May 9, 2014 by Ruby Licona. Karen discusses her time at Weber State as a student from 1951 to 1953 and her experiences as a professor in the Teacher Education department from 1979 to 2005. RL: Good morning. Today is May 9, 2014 and we are meeting with Karen Lofgreen who came to Weber State in 1979 and retired a few years ago and is well and truly missed. My name is Ruby Licona and I am on the faculty in the Stewart Library at Weber State University. Karen, we are very thankful that you are able to meet with us today despite the weather and all the other obstacles. Welcome. KL: Thank you. RL: So, you came here in 1979, were you originally from Ogden? KL: Born and raised in Ogden—one of seven Blair children. Our parents believed in Weber College and although two or three of us had scholarships to other universities, all seven Blair children graduated from Weber College. I had a full tuition scholarship and it was $51.00 or $17.00 a quarter [Appendix Pg. 1 & 2]. I was employed by all of the coaches in the Athletic Office, plus Lawrence Burton, who was Director of Alumni Relations. It was such a fun job. I typed dupliMATS for the National Junior College Athletic Association's (NCAA), monthly publication. I made $15.00 in the Athletic Office and $20.00 a month for typing that publication. RL: It was called dupliMAT? 1 KL: DupliMATS. You used a stationary typewriter and the form was the dupliMAT. RL: Oh okay, it was the name of the form not the name of the process. KL: A dupliMAT was what you typed on. You fed it into a manual typewriter and you couldn't make a mistake because there was no way to correct it. Later, I used a new selectric typewriter with a correction key and that was a wonderful improvement. I graduated from Weber College in 1953 and attended BYU for one year and I graduated from Utah State. I became an elementary teacher in 1954. In the 1960's when the Teacher Education Department was awarded a Carnegie Foundation Grant to write a new teacher education program the faculty moved into the dorms for one year to collaborate on the new program. Five of us, who were public education teachers, came on campus and taught classes for the year. I also taught two summers for Olive McCarthy, a WSU faculty member who wanted to take a sabbatical during those summers. Olive taught the methods courses in art, music and social studies. I loved teaching those classes. RL: This was still in the Teacher Education Department? KL: Yes. Then, in 1979, I was called by Luan Ferrin, Elementary Education Department Chair, who said that Olive McCarthy was retiring and he asked me to apply for the job. I had, during the interim of the time, received a master's degree from BYU, so I began up with a master's degree, but was hired at the time as an assistant professor. You wouldn't hear of that now. RL: No, you have to have a terminal degree for that now. 2 KL: That's exactly right. If a terminal degree is granted in that field. So, I began in June of 1979 in Teacher Education and it was such fun. Caseel Burke, was the Dean of the College of Education and was a wonderful, outstanding leader. We would sit in a faculty meeting—we were only a faculty of seven in elementary education at that time—and Caseel could synthesize into two minutes a 45 minute meeting. He was a wonderful, wonderful leader. Burdett Johnson was the Elementary Education Chair and I reported directly to him. That first year I can remember having a dental appointment, so I went to Dr. Burdett and I said, "Dr. Burdett, I have a dental appointment, is it alright if I go a little early today." He said, "Karen, you're no longer in public education, you're in charge of your life here, so you don't have to ask the principal for permission to leave early." So, I learned a lot. Helena Watson was a faculty member, along with Cordell Perkes, Jimmy Merrill, Rich Blake, Luan Ferrin and Ruth Gardner, and we ran the elementary program. Secondary faculty was Blaine Parkinson, Harley Adamson, Evan Memmott, Blair Lowe, Florence Barton, Dave Cox, Keith Burnett, and Earl McCain [Appendix pg. 3]. RL: That was quite a bit larger than— KL: It was a larger department than ours. Most of secondary faculty specialized in one subject and most of elementary faculty taught at least three. Our staff at that time consisted of Lucy Isaacson and Marian Hines. Marguerite Favero was the Dean's secretary. Evan Christensen was in the library. I think he served in that capacity for nearly 40 years. Janet Lane, Kathleen Newman, Linda Olmsted, who is still a department secretary, and Sharon Allred, who later took Kathleen's 3 place, ran the audio visual lab. It was a wonderful group of folks. We had the Individualized Learning Program (IDP), which really meant that the students worked at their own speed. That's the one that the faculty wrote for the Carnegie Grant. It was an individualized approach to education and for the student who was self-motivated, it was a wonderful program. If the student depended on the classroom lecture and the rote feeding of the faculty, that student didn't do as well in the program. RL: So it was more like the English program at Oxford where you have a mentor, but you work at your own rate. KL: Yes. Our classes were extremely small with about 15 students. I had the best of both worlds because I taught college students and supervised student teacher where I was in public classrooms at least one day each week. I thought how much more meaningful it would be for our students if we could meet in the public school during the quarter rather than on campus. Since I didn't want to change schools every quarter, I arranged with the principals to be in their school for the academic year. I taught the university students lesson planning and methodology and then taught a classroom of elementary students where my students observed. The next day we would evaluate my lesson and the university students would write their lesson plans, peer teach them, receive feedback and then teach the students in the elementary classroom where I would observe and evaluate them. When we moved to semesters, I had more time to teach and observe. I was the first faculty to teach classes off campus in a public school setting. The students in these classes were seniors and they were very serious about 4 teaching and doing it well. As older faculty retired and new faculty members were hired, many of them did not agree with the individualized approach and slowly the old textbook method crept back and the IDP program was phased out. RL: But they still do field teaching. KL: Students do 150 hours of field experience before they do student teaching, so they're in the field a lot as a declared major. I had a tremendous professional career on Weber's campus. When Val and I were students from 1951 through 1953, we had about 750 students and we knew every faculty member and most of the students. I worked in the athletic office and President Henry Aldous Dixon's office was almost directly across from mine. My sister, Betty Bond, was assistant registrar to Clarice Hall and she was in the office next door. I can remember my sister pulled me out of class one day and she said, "Do you know how close you are to graduating with highest honors," and I said, "No." She said, "You have to have straight A's this quarter." I said, "Really?" She said, "Yes," So, with her encouragement we were able to pull that off. It was a delightful time to be a Wildcat and then to come up here as a full-time faculty. It doesn't get much better than that. RL: Now, when you came up here, who was the president then, Dr. Brady? KL: Yes. I served under Dr. Rodney Brady, Dr. Stephen Nadauld, Dr. Paul Thompson, and then Dr. Ann Milner. RL: You had four pretty good administrators right there. KL: Yes I did. I became very well acquainted with all of them. 5 RL: All were very approachable. KL: Oh, very approachable, I should say. RL: Now, who was Dean? KL: Caseel Burke was our Dean when I came and then I served with Dr. Blaine Parkinson, Dr. Richard Jones, and Dr. David Green. Dr. Jack Rasmussen, who been a faculty member left for North Dakota to become a Dean. When he got word that Dean Green was retiring, he called me and said, "Is this true?" I said, "Yes. Put your hat in the ring." We had a fun laugh because when we were hiring him as a faculty member we'd never met and I had to go to the airport with a sign that said, "Dr. Rasmussen." It was hard for me to do that. So, we laugh about that often. I served under quite a few Presidents and Deans. RL: You gave a list of people. Did any of them take a mentoring role when you came up here or were you advanced enough in your career that you didn't feel like you needed that? KL: Higher education is a lot different than public education. In public ed, you're working with a principal every day and that's about as far as you go unless the superintendent calls a meeting or he happens to come in the classroom. So, of course, the Dean was very close to us and each of these Deans, especially Caseel, mentored me well. I learned so much from him. They all played their role, I served on various committees with each President and occasionally he would come in our building, so I knew each one personally. RL: Were you ever involved with the Faculty Senate? 6 KL: Twice. I served two terms on the Faculty Senate. I enjoyed that. I served on the Executive Council for one term. The executive committee met separately and decided the agenda and topics that would be discussed in the Senate meetings. RL: They also decide all the things for the committees to consider during the year and so forth. KL: True. I had forgotten that part. RL: They're very—it's political, but it's also very organizing and influential. KL: And Tom Burton. RL: Oh he was a sweetheart. KL: Tom was a student body officer at Weber College with Val. Val was president and "Honest Tom, the people's choice," that's how he ran his campaign—was the treasurer. I taught Tom's children in elementary school. I think he served at least two terms as Faculty Senate president. RL: I think it might have been three. KL: It could have been. I so enjoyed having Tom as the president of Senate and we understood each other. RL: Did you serve as a liaison for any of the major committees or anything? KL: Yes, of course, The National College Accreditation for Teacher Education (NCATE) was a big thing that we had to go through every five years. We had two departments, elementary and secondary until we merged and became one known as the Teacher Education Department. I was Elementary Chair during one 7 of those reviews and it was a tremendous task to fulfill the requirements of the review, serve as an administrator and also teach a nine hour load. When Janice Fauske became department chair, she gave members of the NCATE committee three hours load and that helped considerably. During my tenure, I served on every NCATE review. I also taught classes in the master's program when it was taught jointly with Utah State. We had concern with this arrangement because we taught most of the classes and Utah State always wanted a bigger piece of the action. RL: And they got the credit. KL: They surely did. We fought the battle with the Board of Regents and although I didn't fight at that level, I fought at the local level to get that changed because we had a very impressive faculty and we were capable and willing to teach the classes. RL: That was still in the days of all the politics where it was flat out stated, "Weber College will stay Weber College and will never grant graduate degrees." Then the teacher ed program took off. I know when I came in 1990, we had three master's programs and that has blossomed and bloomed to quite a few more by now. KL: Yes, we laid the ground work for the masters' programs on campus. RL: And I think when I first got here, there was still a Utah State office over in one of the—I don't remember if it was in the tower or one of the dorms, but it was still here at that time. 8 KL: They wanted a presence on our campus. They still do. I fought for Ogden money to stay in Ogden. I came from a family who believed in Ogden. In 1955, when American Food Store opened on 40th and Washington, they had a contest. The contest winner would receive a new 1955 Chevrolet Station Wagon. You had to write a jingle and you had to estimate volume sales for a year. My father was a salesman for Swift & Company and he sold all of the meat to the local stores. We had that number, and that's a big volume in a grocery store. Val and I wrote a jingle, "We purchase locally, try never to shirk, for buying in Ogden provides us with work." And we won. RL: Oh, you won a new car! KL: We were married in 1954 and bought a new 1954 Buick, so we sold the 1955 Chevrolet and paid off the Buick. I was born and raised with a daily diet of, "We have to support locally," and I still believe that. So, I have a daughter who graduated from our elementary education program and then came back for a master's degree. I was the first female faculty to hood her daughter and that was quite an honor for me. Blair, our son, has an associate degree from Weber and of course Val and I have associate degrees, so we are a Weber State family. RL: You bleed purple. KL: We do bleed purple and I should have worn purple. I didn't know we'd be on camera or I would have worn the school colors! RL: Well, and you're still very active with the Alumni Association, aren't you? 9 KL: Not as much as I have been. I served on the Alumni Board in 1964 when we were instrumental in laying the groundwork for a four year college. That was a wonderful time. Reva Blair was my cousin and she was Chair that year and we fought hard for the four year status. RL: Well, I had seen you and Val at the Dixon Awards. KL: We support as many Weber State functions as possible. We knew President Dixon. Val served as student body president under President Dixon. RL: He got up and spoke under that hat. KL: He did, he told some fun stories, didn't he? RL: Yes he did. KL: He was part of the group that fought when they wanted the college to revert back to the LDS church. He told that story this year, so you're right. RL: Well, because, Weber had been public for many decades. KL: I can't recall. RL: But they wanted to give it back to the church and there was an uprising. KL: Absolutely, which there needed to be and it worked out. I've seen a lot of interesting things. I was here when we became a University. That was a wonderful event to see happen. RL: Oh that big, beautiful meeting that we had where everybody marched. KL: I had forgotten that. Weber State is home to a lot of wonderful people and, you know, a year ago I received an Honorary Degree (Appendix pg. 4) and my 10 daughter-in-law's parents attended from Salt Lake and they're very University of Utah oriented. They've had many grandchildren graduate from Utah State and from BYU, so they've attended a lot of commencements. They came up afterward and said, "This was so delightful." I said, "That's what we're all about here." It's a hometown feeling and I love that about Weber. RL: It is. I think there are people in Salt Lake who need to get past the whole, "Weber High" mentality because Weber State is no longer what it was when it first came up here on this campus. It has grown tremendously and it is no longer a community college or a college, it has become a full-fledged university. The fact that this is very much a teaching campus, I think makes a big difference. KL: Smaller class loads and full professors teaching classes is a song to sing and a sermon to preach! RL: Well, you mentioned earlier that you had been hired as an assistant professor which wouldn't necessarily happen now. I think a lot of things like that have changed over the years and someone else mentioned that pretty much you have to have a terminal degree depending on what field you're in. I know that with librarianship, a master's degree is considered a terminal degree, but we have several people on the faculty here with doctorates because people, if they're worth their salt, are going to want to go on and get more education regardless of whether they can get by on a master's or not. KL: I was fortunate because with a master's degree, I also became an associate professor. They felt that I was valuable to the department because of my 19 years in public education. So, fun story! Lucy Isaacson and Marian Hines were 11 responsible for the Weber Individualized Learning Kit (WILKIT) center. Students were issued a punch card showing the amount they owed for WILKIT purchases. When the card was full, it was taken to the treasurer's office where the student would pay money for the WILKIT packets. Lucy worked in the center for several years and when she retired I was in charge of her retirement reception that was held in the Sage Room. Tom Day, from the Department of Child and Family Studies, came up to me and said, "Are you available today?" I said, "What for?" Tom said, "Well, there are a group of us going to BYU to interview for a doctoral program and we need one more person to fill the college van. I said, "Oh my gosh," I hadn't even thought about that, so I called Val and told him that I was going to BYU with them. We took a written test and then we were interviewed. Within a month, I received notification that I had been accepted. I can remember that next Sunday sitting at the kitchen table—we had two children and the four of us were sitting there and I didn't know if I really wanted to accept. So, I said to the family, "What shall I do?" Of course, they said, "Mom, you just do whatever you feel comfortable doing." I asked, "Would you think any less of me if I decided not to do this?" They all started eating. I had my answer. RL: Didn't get a response, did you? Or maybe you got a response, but it was nonverbal. KL: It was a great program! I joined a cohort group consisting of six students from California and eight students from Utah. Our northern Utah group drove to BYU every Friday and had classes Friday evening until about 10:00 p.m. and all day Saturday and then we'd drive back. We were on campus in the summers and I 12 took a year sabbatical while I was working on a dissertation. Weber was very good to me because even being on sabbatical I still got a percentage of my salary. So, I finished in 1988 and then became a full professor in 1991. It was so worth it. The degree added $500 to my salary! It cost me $30,000 to get the degree. But, it paid dividends in terms of what I did in my professional life and my church life. RL: How so? KL: I served on the Primary General Board. So, when I did training—and we were worldwide, of course—and they would introduce me as Sister Lofgreen, a professor at Weber State University. RL: Dr. Karen Lofgreen of Weber State University. KL: Absolutely. Then it was surprising how many people would come up and say, "I went to Weber, or I lived in Ogden." I believe that was the main reason I got the degree because I don't think it changed my teaching. I was still a teacher who believed in a very practical approach. However, the experience gave me a broader spectrum of knowledge and new innovative teaching methods. Today I'm glad I did it. RL: That's good. Now, the students, when you first got here, I would imagine they've changed over the years. Were there things that you saw as you were here as far as changing student body? KL: I always felt that the majority of our students were here to learn. Occasionally, you would get a student where you had that feeling, "This is a bunch of garbage, 13 I don't need this stuff, just give me the diploma and let me go in the classroom." That was very seldom. I don't think students have changed too much except for the outside pressure of today's world. We still had many in teacher ed who were single parents—most of our students worked, although they should have only worked 20 hours a week, in some instances it had to be more than that. I think that the whole dynamics in the lives of our students have changed. I've been retired nine years and I would dare say that I didn't see a great deal of change in the thirst for knowledge after 27 years than I did when I first came. We were expected to keep up with the times in terms of what was going on in state mandates. I taught my art, music, creativity, and gifted classes mainly centered around what was expected of students when they became classroom teachers. So, I saw dedicated students. I saw a lot of respect for teaching and teachers while I was here. I'll say that in my 27 years a very infinitesimal group of students gave me that attitude, "Just let me out." RL: Are there students from over the years that you keep in contact with? KL: Yes! I am still invited to some missionary farewells of students that I taught whose children are leaving to serve LDS missions and occasionally, wedding receptions. Recently, I received a letter from a graduate of Weber State, who was a former sixth grade student at T.O. Smith Elementary School. She had moved away and become a curriculum development specialist in a district in Seattle and just wanted to renew some memories about sixth grade. It was fun when I traveled for Weber State and presented at conferences I seldom 14 presented that one of our graduates wasn't there. It was interesting to see how far they had progressed professionally and how far away they had moved. RL: So like National Association meetings and so forth? KL: Yes. Dr. Ann Ellis and I did a lot of presentations worldwide on gifted education. Of course, my strong field was creativity and that's a wonderful field. Faculty used to tease me, "Look at Karen, she teachers art, music, creativity, and gifted," I said, "You all made poor choices. I made the good choices." RL: You're bound to come up with some good students in that. KL: You know, the creativity class was an interesting class. It was an all-day class that met the five days during semester break. We began at 8:00 a.m. and we went straight through until 5:00 p.m. In fact, I didn't want to let them off campus during the noon hour, so before the first Monday, I had my class roll, I would call in five students and say, "You're in charge of lunch on Monday. You'll have a five dollar budget and you'll have 22 students." Of course, they had to furnish some things too. As I got into class the first day then I organized lunch groups for the rest of the week. During the week the students never slept. We still talk about that when I get together with students who took the creativity class. It was very hands-on because they finished the week with methods and materials to teach music, art, language arts, science, math and also creative ways to teach them. RL: Now, did you develop this course? 15 KL: Helena Watson developed the course first and then I took it from there. We had a Ukulele program. We played ukulele the first half hour in the morning and I only taught seven chords, but if you know seven chords you can play a lot of songs. RL: You can fake your way pretty well. I remember in first grade being in a rhythm group and knocking two sticks together. KL: We also did rhythm band instruments. RL: It made an impression. I was in first grade a long time ago. KL: We played rhythm band and orff instruments—those are small xylophones that most of the public schools now have. It was a rigorous course, but I taught it during my time. We finished the semester on Friday and then I picked up creativity the next Monday during break. The students could register for it and they had completed three hours of semester credit before the next semester even started. When I served in Salt Lake was when I started teaching creativity on my time. When Helena taught creativity, it was taught one afternoon per week for three hours all quarter. I talked to the Dean and I said, "I would like to buy some load time," because I needed to be in Salt Lake every Thursday. We worked out the schedule and I was able to perform my board duties. The kids loved the class because they didn't have to worry about other assignments during that week. RL: They got their time in and they got their money's worth. KL: We were able to buy 40 ukuleles. Then, we had enough money that we were able to buy cases for them. So, over in the education building, there are 40 ukes. 16 I met the professor who teaches creativity at this year's story-telling festival and I asked him, "Do you use the ukuleles?" He said, "Not yet, but I plan on it." I hope he does. In the public schools ukulele is a fifth grade experience, but if a teacher can play ukulele, they can accompany many of the songs, especially in the lower grades. RL: That sounds like a fun venture. KL: You know, the faculty and staff never knew what I was going to do in the Education Building. After we practiced a while we took our ukes (Appendix pg. 5) and went down the halls and in the classrooms where teachers were teaching and we'd play our ukes and sing a song or two. They all accepted that as they knew what I was like. RL: Now, as far as teacher ed. What were the effects of developing technology? KL: It didn't have a lot to do with my courses. RL: You were able to keep it pretty traditional? KL: In my courses, although I remember Evan Memott used to have the AV lab and he had a computer and that was it. Now, that whole area where he was is a computer center. I became a computer literate in the early 1980's. Cordell Perkes was my boss and one day he came to my office and said, "You have excellent typing skills, I'm going to put a computer in your office" I said, "No you're not." He said, "Oh yes I am." He continued, "Let me tell you something, Karen. When you learn the computer, you'll toss that selectric typewriter right out the window." I laughed at him and said, "Oh, this is the greatest typewriter on Earth." Soon after, 17 Cordell put an Apple computer in my office. I was the first faculty to have the little Apple with the tiny screen. RL: Seven inch screen I think. KL: Was it? I can't remember, but it was the tiniest thing I'd ever seen and that little tiny keyboard! I said to Val, "Oh my word, I don't know if this is for me." Of course, then as we became iMac savvy—and our department was very good, I had a great computer and every two or three years it was upgraded. I'm an Apple person at home. RL: You got to the big iMacs with the big 19 inch screens and the library just recently had a grant and we now have some iPads in about a seven inch and a ten inch, so it goes round about doesn't it? KL: It does. I just have a new iPad that I'm breaking in and it's tiny. I haven't iPhoned yet, but it probably is coming. RL: Got to keep up with the times, it keeps you young. KL: That's true. RL: Now, outside of teacher ed, what kinds of other things were you involved with on campus? You were on the Faculty Senate. Were you involved in any of the strategic planning things in the early 1990's? KL: Yes I was and Tom Burton was a big part of that. There were two goals that I had. One was to get an honorary degree for Wilma Gross. Wilma was the librarian on the old campus. When we moved from the old campus to the new campus, she hauled the complete library in her car. I don't know how many trips 18 she made between 25th Street and Harrison Boulevard. Did you know Wilma at all? RL: I did not. I think I met her once. KL: She was the most wonderful woman and you talk about professionalism, library skills and kindness. I served on the Honorary Degree Committee three or four times and a lot of the younger faculty had no idea who this woman was, but I just kept repeating my story and she received an honorary degree. The tears rolled down her cheeks the morning they hooded her. The second was to name the education building. When I started my crusade the education building was twenty some years old and never had been named. Well, you tell me what teachers we can ask that can afford to give enough money to have a building named after them. Can't do it. So, I had an idea, thanks to Bill Critchlow, who said, "You know the Timpanogos Storytelling Festival?" I said, "Oh, very well, because I know Karen Ashton as she served on the primary board with me." He said, "Why don't we start a storytelling festival and have the Ashton's buy in with the underlying reason being to name the education building the David O. McKay Education Building because Allan Ashton, Karen's husband, is David O. McKay's grandson." In 1994, a group of us went down and met with Karen Ashton and said, "Would you come up to Weber State and give us ideas on how to start a storytelling festival?" Which she did. I don't know when we approached the Ashtons for a donation, but they gave us a quarter of a million dollars. David O. McKay was a principal of Weber Academy and he taught here and he lived in Huntsville. So, that's what started the Storytelling Festival. They wanted me to 19 chair it and they said, "We'd like the first one to be in the fall of 1995." This was Christmas of 1994. I said, "I can't do it, it's too big and if we do it, we want to do it right so let's aim for fall of 1996." We pulled it off. RL: Now, you worked with the library on that. KL: I worked with Diane Wismer. KL: The Timpanogos Festival does everything in tents, so we wanted to use tents. Rental on the three tents was $30,000 bucks. RL: And that was only for like three days wasn't it? KL: Yes, it was a three day festival. We put it on the lower quad just prior to the starting of school in September. The night before it rained and there was a terrible wind. Val got out of bed, put on his street clothes and said, "I'm going over to check those tents." They were fine, but there was so much water the next morning, plus the main broke on the lower quad, so we had that water too. It was horrible. RL: Everybody was sloshing around, needed boots. KL: Oh yes! I thought the festival would be a one-year event, but it just celebrated its 18th year. It has grown in national recognition and it also serves as a recruitment tool for Weber State. That first year we put on a first class festival and were $40,000 in the red. President Paul Thompson said, "Karen, this could really be an outreach for our whole community. We need to continue this." He also told me that the University would pay our deficit and we would start the next year, debt free. 20 The festival steering committee agreed that we needed financial assistance from the community. We started raising money by asking Norm Skanchy to do an original watercolor that depicted storytelling. It took him most of the summer to complete the artwork and since he didn't charge us for his service, we hoped we could sell the original for some seed money for the festival. My sister, Maggie Favaro, is a relative to Jerry Moyes, who owns Swift Trucking Company and lives in Arizona. She called him on his cell phone and she said, "Jerry! Do I have a deal for you!" He replied, "How much do you need, Maggie?" She replied, "Five-thousand dollars." He asked, "What for?" Maggie explained, "You need to buy an original water color painting." He said, "A painting for $5000 must be quite a painting!" Maggie explained the reason and Jerry said, "The check will be in the morning mail." Jerry gave the original to Maggie and during this year's Storytelling Dinner that watercolor was presented to Norman Skanchy. He was thrilled! We not only sold prints of the painting, but Norm also designed the storytelling pin that many people have purchased. We also started the Storytelling Dinner that has helped with expenses. RL: At the Egyptian. KL: No. The first year we held a dinner for the festival steering committee, national storytellers and sponsors in the yard of Dr. Jack and Bonnie Wahlen. The second year we moved to the Eccles Conference Center and advertised to the public. About 100 attended the event and we included stories from the four national storytellers. This has been a very successful event for the University community. 21 The next year between the support of local schools, WSU, and private donors, the festival was nearly paid for when the doors opened. After the second festival, Dean Hurst called me and said that the Stewart Foundation would pay all expenses for the nest year's event. I was ecstatic! When the steering committee was informed of this, they voted to save the Stewart money and through WSU investments gain some interest on the money. The festival was also making a little money each year and with adding this to the Stewart donation it was our intent that someday we could pay the expenses of a national storyteller to come on campus for a year. To the best of my knowledge, that account has increased to where we can bring a national storyteller to campus and have him or her teach college classes and also work with public school students and educators and with parents. The festival continues to grow and has expanded to the Davis campus. The attendance at last year's festival was just over 14,000. RL: The family evening is always so well attended. Children just love it. KL: Isn't it fun? We patterned that after Timpanogos with our milk and animal cracker cookies. Remember Elaine Sandoval over in Continuing Education? She was always in charge of the refreshments and she'd go to stores and get them to donate animal crackers and milk. That was such a fun thing. We honored Karen J. Ashton by presenting the Karen J. Ashton award to a person who had significant influence in terms of either the festival or storytelling. This year Val and I attended some of the story sessions. I M.C.'d two sessions and then we went to the storytelling dinner because the Karen J. 22 Ashton Award was presented to Norm Skanchy, which I should have thought of years ago. If anyone deserved that award it was Norm for all that he did. RL: For all the ideas and— KL: Oh yes and he never charged us a cent. So, probably my claim to fame is the Wilma Gross library degree. When she died, at the viewing her honorary degree, hood and citation were displayed. It meant so much to her. Our building was 33 years old when it finally got a name. We had a big celebration that day. Hundreds of people attended. President Gordon B. Hinckley came from Salt Lake and spoke about President McKay. When we were planning the dedication event, we had a vice president who said, "Oh, we'll just have it in the Wattis building, to which Leslie Moore kept saying, "Think bigger, think bigger." The Browning Center was booked and I received a call from Leslie about ten days before the event and she was laughing and she said, "Guess what." I said, "You don't have to tell me. The prophet's coming and we get the Austad Auditorium." She said, "Absolutely." It was standing room only and we had to turn people away. They dedicated the building in the Browning Center and then everyone come over to the Education Building for tours and refreshments. I was an escort that day and John and Tita Lindquist were in my group. We had really spruced up the building. We had beautiful art and everything was repainted and John said, "Karen, this looks like a brand new building." I said, "John, this building is 33 years old." He said, "I never would have believed it." So, the Storytelling Festival brought about the naming of our building and that meant a lot to me. RL: So that was your big accomplishment. 23 KL: When you're 72 and you've taught 46 years, it's time to hang it up and go and do other things. So that's what I've been doing. RL: What have you been doing since you left? KL: Right now I'm serving on the Capital Campaign for the College of Education. We were instrumental in securing funds for the Boyd K. and Donna Packer Center that was dedicated last May 2013. I was so delighted with the 125th kickoff. RL: Things went off really well, didn't they? KL: I wish everyone could have attended. I talked to Karen Hurst and she said they had to turn people away. But, if you weren't a committed Wildcat before, that night had to do it. Jim Christian wrote and MC'd the program and it was masterfully done. So, I just keep a little finger in the pot. Right now I'm helping the Ogden Symphony Ballet organization to try to induce a younger audience to attend the symphonies and ballets. If you go to the Masterworks Symphonies, those attending are all my age or older and we don't have young people supporting it. So, we're trying to come up with an idea on how we can make that happen. We don't want to lose symphonic music. Good land, we have one of the finest orchestras in the United States. So I serve a little bit here and there. RL: Didn't I see recently that they had some pop performers or popular music performers? KL: They have three pop concerts a year and they each sell out. RL: Is it a younger audience? 24 KL: Oh absolutely. It's Weber State and that 20, 30, 40 age group. A week ago Thursday, they did the music of the sixties. I don't know how the Pops concerts could get any better. Val and I have had symphony tickets ever since we've been married which will be sixty years this fall. The orchestra used to be at Ogden High School and when they moved to the Browning Center, Val and I were one of the first to buy our tickets. So, we've had a rich life. We have two children, Launa lives in Mountain Green and she teaches school in Davis County. She and Reed are the parents of our three oldest grandchildren and our son, Blair, is a pilot with American Airlines and that little family lives in St. Louis. His oldest son is graduating from high school next week. We leave a week from tomorrow to go back for his graduation. RL: Now, was Val also up here at Weber State? KL: Val Lofgreen? RL: Yes. KL: He was a student body president. RL: Oh, but I mean he wasn't on the faculty or anything. KL: Oh no. Val worked for the Department of Defense. He ran their computer system. RL: I didn't know if you had made it a family affair. KL: No, Val has a degree in chemistry and math and he did graduate work in chemistry and then earned an MBA. He taught accounting at night for three or four years at Weber. Other than that, we've kept him pretty busy at home with a wife who had to commute for every degree. 25 RL: Now, you said you had two main goals— KL: Two major goals. RL: Two major goals. Did you have other goals that you weren't quite able to attain? KL: I'm goal oriented. One of your questions was do you have any regrets? RL: I guess that's what I'm trying to get at without using the word 'regrets'. KL: I'll tell you what I wrote. "What regrets do you have? None. If I had it to do over again I wouldn't change a thing." As I spoke at some of our faculty member's funerals—Florence Barton, for instance, retired the 12th of June—wonderful English professor—I spoke at her funeral in November. Burdett Johnson, Luan Ferrin, Ruth Gardner, Helena Watson, Betty Nowak, to name a few, were instrumental in bringing about the growth in teacher education that we enjoy today. Those of us who are still around have an annual fall social in the beautiful yard of Marlene and Keith Burnett. It reminds each of us of those days when we taught together, played together and most certainly laughed together. Weber State was very good to me. Last night as I went through papers in my desk I found an envelope with each of my salary contracts dating back to 1981. I don't know what I did with the 1979 and 1980 contracts. But I do know that my starting salary in 1979 was $18,000. I can remember how excited I was when Burdett called and said, "You have the job and your starting salary will be $18,000." That year I would have made $17,500 in public education, so a nice $500 bonus was great. RL: In those days, $500 was nothing to sneeze at. 26 KL: The largest raise I ever had at Weber was seven percent. Most raises are in the one's two's three's, and sometimes a four, but one year we had a seven percent. It was a wonderful job for me and I don't think I would have hung it up, but my husband had retired and he thought we should serve a mission for our church, so away we went. RL: Well, it's good to be able to talk to someone who has such fond memories and who donated so much time and effort to some of the really successful programs we've had here. KL: Thank you. RL: Thank you for taking the time to come and be with us. KL: Well, I hope it's worth your time. RL: It's the stories, the little stories. You know about storytelling festivals and stuff and it's the little stories that make up the personality of the place and you've added to that. KL: Thank you. Each year Val and I receive letters from the other universities asking for donations. Val and I have degrees from Utah State, University of Utah and BYU, but our answer is always the same, "We support Weber State University." My father's advice of supporting the local economy has remained ingrained in my heart. It thrills me when I meet a student and ask, "Why Weber State?" Since many of these students are from out of state or from other countries, I'm interested in why they are here and how they heard about Weber. The answers are surprising! But most come because of word-of-mouth by someone who had a 27 positive experience at the University. Last year, my niece's grandson from Alabama enrolled at Weber State. I asked him why and he replied that he would be close to his grandma and great grandma and would have some good home cooked food, but the other reason was that he heard so many good things about Weber from friends and family. He lived in the residence halls the first year and loved that experience. This young man is serving an LDS mission now, but he will return to graduate from Weber. I hear these kinds of stories all of the time from people just coming here and being happy and being treated with respect while learning from the best. Kindness also plays a big role in why they are here. That's very important. It doesn't cost a cent. Many times strong friendships develop as a result of mutual respect between teacher and student. My philosophy was that if friendship did develop as a result of good teaching, that's wonderful, but basically I didn't come here to be their friend, I came to be their teacher. A teacher and student are never on the same level. There has to be distance between the teacher and the learner and if that doesn't happen, learning will not take place. RL: It is a team effort. KL: It's a team effort and that desire to want to teach well and learn those skills that are necessary for a productive and caring classroom teacher makes all the difference. You must have that burning desire and that passion, "I chose the right thing and this is what I want to do for the rest of my professional career." Teaching is not for everyone and contrary to popular belief, all people cannot teach. Teaching requires a definite set of skills and relationships and knowledge 28 and when those three don't combine, it just doesn't happen. So, the majority of my students were here to learn and I was here to teach. RL: How many teachers have you sent out over the years, do you know? KL: Oh my glory. I had that figured out once because they asked me and it was into the thousands, but I did teach 27 of my former elementary students and that was wonderful. I taught those 27, plus I taught my daughter, my sister-in-law, Marilyn Lofgreen, and I taught two of my nieces! RL: Did you get to teach some of your students' children? KL: Yes! A few. One semester I had a student from Moses Lake, Washington. When she introduced herself and told where she was from, I found out that she was Dr. T.O. Smith's great granddaughter and the granddaughter of Dr. Smith's son, Vern, whom I dated in high school. She laughed as she said, "You could have been my grandmother!" I discovered that our students were dedicated professionals. When I observed them as they became cooperating teachers to our student teachers that I supervised I was thrilled that they were bona fide teachers. Who gets to do that? Have I convinced you both to go over and register as elementary education majors? RL: I'm getting ready to retire, I don't think I want to start over. KL: I think I'll grant you that. However, I think I was 53 when I began the doctorate program. RL: Well, you got it in 1988. 29 KL: I finished in 1988 at age 56. RL: It's never too late to learn. KL: No, and be in control of your life. Life has its mountains and valleys, but my dad always used to say, "Mind over matter." I keep that as a focal point because sometimes you have to drive yourself into the unknown and it has always worked for me. So, that's my good word for the day. RL: Well, I'm glad to see someone that was here and left with no regrets. KL: Absolutely none. RL: Thank you, Karen. KL: You're welcome. 30 1 Appendix 2 3 4

As a Caribbean institution of Higher Learning, the University of the West Indies is seen as a major contributor to integration efforts in the Region very often mandated by CARICOM to carry out educational missions to that effect. Working in a geographically fragmented and multilingual space, foreign language education is a major preoccupation for academic departments or sections in the respective campuses. The Mona Campus, based in Jamaica, was very one of the earliest to recognize the need to add LSP courses in its curriculum as electives (Business) or as 'service courses' for other programmes (Tourism and Hospitality Management). To these existing LSP courses, the French Section at the Mona Campus added in 2003 a new LSP course geared toward International Relation students. The originality of the course lays its chosen method of delivery by total simulation. The course was offered twice since its approval and under two different schedules (two-week intensive and semester-long). This chapter discusses the impact of these two schedules on the course delivery and learning process. The comparison shows the importance of student's motivation and learning autonomy. The study also comments on the use of blended learning (on-line module complementing face-to-face delivery) and suggests that virtual reality may offer a new addition to Total Simulation for LSP. ; To cite the digital version, add its Reference URL (found by following the link in the header above the digital file). ; TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 73 French for International Conference at The University of the West Indies, Mona: Total Simulation in the Teaching of Languages for Specific Purposes Marie-José Nzengou-Tayo The University of The West Indies, Mona Gilles Lubeth The University of The West Indies, Mona Abstract: As a Caribbean institution of Higher Learning, the University of the West Indies is seen as a major contributor to integration efforts in the Region very often mandated by CARICOM to carry out educational missions to that effect. Working in a geographically fragmented and multilingual space, foreign language education is a major preoccupation for academic departments or sections in the respective campuses. The Mona Campus, based in Jamaica, was very one of the earliest to recognize the need to add LSP courses in its curriculum as electives (Business) or as 'service courses' for other programmes (Tourism and Hospitality Management). To these existing LSP courses, the French Section at the Mona Campus added in 2003 a new LSP course geared toward International Relation students. The originality of the course lays its chosen method of delivery by total simulation. The course was offered twice since its approval and under two different schedules (two-week intensive and semester-long). This chapter discusses the impact of these two schedules on the course delivery and learning process. The comparison shows the importance of student's motivation and learning autonomy. The study also comments on the use of blended learning (on-line module complementing face-to-face delivery) and suggests that virtual reality may offer a new addition to Total Simulation for LSP. Keywords: CARICOM, French for international trade, international conferences, Language for Specific Purposes (LSP), methodology Introduction Language for Specific Purpose (LSP) has developed with the expansion of international trade and the development of multilingual and multicultural working teams. Short language courses are designed at the request of enterprises or institutions in order to meet the specific demands related to the work environment. Though LSP courses have been in existence for more than three decades, their introduction in the academic programs of language majors is quite recent and has been a hot debate for several years at MLA and ADFL meetings. In the Caribbean, with the development of integration, the need for LSP has been felt as the CARICOM (Caribbean Community) started to look beyond the English-speaking Caribbean and opened itself to non-English-speaking territories (Surinam and Haiti joined the organization in 1995 and 2002 respectively while Cuba and the Dominican Republic have observer status). These political trends impacted on our foreign language offerings, stressing the need to open our curriculum to professionally oriented courses. The Department of Modern Languages and Literatures and the language sections of the two other campuses TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 74 had various responses: at the St. Augustine Campus (Trinidad and Tobago), a Latin American Studies program was developed; at Cave Hill (Barbados), a cross-faculty program in Management Studies with a minor in a foreign language was approved; at Mona, LSP courses were developed and students from other faculties were allowed to declare minors in French or Spanish. In this article, we present the circumstances surrounding the design of the latest addition to French for Specific Purpose courses offered at the University of The West Indies, Mona (UWI, Mona), the methodological choices made and their implication for assessment. Because the course has been offered twice since its approval by the University Academic Quality Assurance Committee and with two different schedules, we will compare and discuss these two delivery modes. Language for Specific Purpose at the UWI, Mona At the UWI, Mona, the introduction of French for Special Purpose came out of a pragmatic approach at a time when high schools were experiencing a high turnover of French teachers and a reduction of schools offering A-level French (equivalent to the Baccalauréat). Noting that our graduates were being hired in the insurance and tourism industries, it was thought that equipping them with professional language skills would give a 'practical' touch to our program. The recruitment of a colleague with professional experience in translation led to discussions about a more professionally oriented program. "French for Business" was the first LSP course to be designed in 1991–1992 with the creation of a level III course of French for business or "Business French." The course was developed as an elective in response to a situation in which French graduates were moving toward the business sector instead of education. In the subsequent years, other LSP courses were introduced: "French for Hospitality" in 1998–1999 and "French for International Conferences" in 2003. The introduction of this last course coincided with a drastic overhaul of the French curriculum. The offering of "French for International Conferences" came at a time when the French section of the Department was repositioning itself and revising its offerings. The course was designed with a view to attracting International Relations (IR) students while capitalizing on the latest trend in French foreign language teaching methods. The decision was based on the fact that IR majors and French majors minoring in IR outnumbered students majoring in French only. It was taken at a time when the section was going into a survival mode, taking drastic measures and moving away from the traditional language curriculum (36 credits equally divided between language and literature). The section opted for a mix of language, literature, film and culture, and French for specific purpose courses. It was a drastic choice since the section was moving away of the traditional literary offerings. Though the section has not fully recovered, it has increased its numbers and the majority of students pursuing French are double majors (French and Spanish) with a professional objective of becoming translators or interpreters, followed by IR and Linguistics majors. Total Simulation in French Foreign Language Teaching and Learning Even though Total Simulation in French Foreign Language Education was initiated in the 1970s at the BELC (Bureau d'Enseignement de la Langue et de la Civilisation Françaises à l'Étranger / Office for the Teaching of French Language and Civilization TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 75 Abroad) it did not really become mainstream until the late eighties. This approach to language teaching evolved from role playing and the need to expand role playing over a longer period of time with a view to involving diverse aspects of communication (Yaiche, 1996). Total Simulation was borrowed from continuous professional education where staff received specific training to deal with job-related situations. Total Simulation for French Foreign Language Teaching was first conceptualized by Francis Debyser, a professor at the CIEP (Centre International d'Études Pédagogiques / International Center for Peda-gogical Studies). In the 1980s, Total Simulation became more broadly accepted and moved from experimental to established status. Publishers become interested and several textbooks were published by Hachette between 1980 and 1990 (Yaiche, 1996). By the 1990s, Total Simulation was redirected toward the teaching of French for Specific Purpose (Business French, French for International Relations, Hospitality French). Total Simulation benefits today from IT and its use in the classroom. It is still at the experimental stage as is the case of 'Virtual Cabinet' for the teaching of English, which has been developed by Masters' students at University of Lyon II (http://sites.univ-lyon2.fr/vcab/demo/) or 'L'auberge' developed by University Lille III for incoming French Foreign Language Students (http://auberge.int.univ-lille3.fr/). Characteristics of a Total Simulation Course in Foreign Language Learning Total Simulation in Foreign Language Teaching and Learning could be considered revolutionary in its approach and methodology. First, the role of the teacher is transformed as he or she becomes a facilitator and a participant in the simulation instead of an instructor. For instance, in the International Conference Simulation, the teacher plays the part of the Secretariat. He or she compiles and archives the material needed for the progress of the conference. He or she also provides documents and the linguistic tools needed for the project. Secondly, simulation follows a set pattern of five stages (See Bourdeau, Bouygue, & Gatein, 1992; Yaiche, 1996). The first stage is the creation of the setting. In the case of the International Conference, it means, choosing the theme and the place of the conference. The second stage is to identify the participants. At this point, the role playing starts as the learners have to choose an identity and the country that they will represent. Learners will have to play several roles: delegates from their chosen countries (Minister of Foreign Affairs or High Ranking Civil Servant or Ambassador). At one point, they also play the part of journalists. The countries are fictitious but based on the characteristics of real countries. During this stage, learners choose their identity and civil status; they invent a short biography indicating two physical, moral, psychological, intellectual characteristics, two distinctive objects, (Yaiche, 1996). The third and fourth stages consist in conducting the simulation: the official opening ceremony and the working sessions. At this point, learners are to present their country's respective position paper. Interaction takes place as well as negotiations for a common position and action plan. During this stage, the facilitator plays an important part in ensuring the archiving of all productions and the elaboration of a data bank for the progress of the conference. Students are provided with documents and assisted in acquiring the mastery of the linguistic tools needed for the exercise (e.g., mastery of high language register for official speeches; mastery of diplomatic lexicon for the phrasing of the final resolution and the press release, TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 76 ability to write an abstract or a synthetic report from a news article, etc.). The final stage is geared toward ending the simulation. In the case of the International Conference, it is marked by the writing of the final resolution and a press conference. Since IR students are to be prepared to face and manage diplomatic incidents/crisis during negotiations, elements that could lead to such incident are introduced between the fourth and fifth stage of the simulation when students are drafting the final resolution of the conference. Students are expected to draw on their negotiating skills in order to solve the problem or assuage the potential conflict and bring the conference to a positive closing ceremony. Assessment is blended in the simulation: oral expression is assessed during the opening ceremony (a five-minute presentation) and during the press conference. Students are video recorded and marking takes place afterwards. (See evaluation sheet in appendix B). Both examiners are present to abide by University Examination Regulations. Writing proficiency is assessed through a press release and the conference final resolution, which is done individually during a traditional in-class test. It is also assessed 'outside' of the simulation through the submission of a take-home assignment, the format of which is either a précis writing or a critical review of a newspaper article related to the theme of the conference. Students are provided with a choice of articles from Le Monde Diplomatique, a well-established and recognized reference journal from which they will select an article for review or summary. LSP and Total Simulation in Jamaica and at the UWI, Mona French teachers in Jamaica were introduced to Total Simulation in 1993 thanks to a new French Linguistics Attaché who was also appointed at The University of the West Indies from 1992–1997. A specialist in Total Simulation, she organized two workshops for the Jamaica Association of French Teachers and one for the Tourism Product Development Company (TPDCo), a Jamaican state agency responsible for the training of the workforce in the tourism sector. The co-authors received additional training at the annual training seminar organized by the Centre International d'Études Pédagogiques (CIEP) held in Caen in July 1996 (Nzengou-Tayo) and July 2009 (Lubeth) respectively. The first total simulation course at the UWI was developed in 2003. Two factors contributed to the choice of this methodology. One was the renewed interest in LSP with the review of the French program. After a quality assurance review in 2003, the French section, threatened by low numbers in registration, revised its program with a stronger professional component (introduction of an additional LSP course and translation modules). The second was the institutionalization of summer courses, which offered the possibility of using an intensive format. The idea was to design a course that could imitate a real life situation: an international conference taking into account that such an event is usually limited over a period of time (1–2 weeks) and requires a full work day. The course was submitted to the University Quality Assurance Committee for approval (See course proposal in Appendix A). In the initial submission, evaluation was by 50% coursework and 50% final examination (Appendix A). However, when the course was first taught in 2006, we requested a change of the evaluation scheme to 100% coursework (50% oral presentation and 50% written assignment). The reason for this change was directly related to the philosophy behind total simulation, which required a formative form of assessment that would blend seamlessly in the simulation. TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 77 Case Study: The 2006 and 2009 Experiences Since its creation, French for International Conferences (FREN 3118) has been offered twice: first, in 2006 as an intensive summer course over two weeks, and secondly, in 2009 as a regular semester course over thirteen weeks. These two modes of delivery will be compared and discussed in this section. Course delivery schedule. In 2005–2006, during the two-week period during which the course was offered, the timetable averaged 25 hours per week with 5 daily contact hours. FREN 3118 was the only course attended by the students. Students were put in an immersion situation as they interacted with a native speaker of French during the week. During the second week, ten hours were set aside for independent research in an attempt to give students an opportunity to develop learning autonomy. In 2009–2010, the course was taught during the first semester according to the regular schedule. The timetable featured 3 one-hour sessions per week. In addition to FREN 3118, students were simultaneously registered for four other courses whose demands were competing with the French course. The fast pace of the semester (13 weeks) did not allow for a scheduled independent research. Students had to use their free time for independent research to develop their learning autonomy. The difference between the schedules of the 2006 and 2009 course delivery had an impact on the course management as well as the students' learning experience. It is evident that 2009 students did not have the same learning stimulus as the 2006 ones. They had the pressure of their other courses in term of time and workload. In addition, regular attendance was an issue since students sometimes missed classes either due to timetable clashes or assignment deadlines to meet in other courses. The running of the course was affected as each student had a part to play in the progress of the simulation and absence from class meetings affected the proceedings of the conference. Student profile and number. The course targets third-year students and requires a general language module at level III as a co-requisite. However, the co-requisite can be waived depending on the level of the students. For instance, when the course was offered during the summer 2006, it was waived for second-year students who had received a B+ in the two modules of the level II language courses. In 2009, a third-year International Relations student who had completed level I of the French language courses with A and was reading the level II language course was allowed to register. The waiver was granted based on his outstanding results at level I and also after an interview in which he demonstrated a high level of motivation and learning autonomy. In 2006, the course was offered with 9 students and in 2009 there were 14 registered students. Numbers can be an issue for conducting a total simulation course. For instance, our experience taught us that, even though Cali, Cheval, & Zabardi (1992) suggest a number of 20 participants divided according to a ratio by type of countries1 in La Conférence Internationale et ses Variantes, country-ratio balance can still be observed TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 78 with lesser numbers. Based on our 2006 experience, we recommend a minimum of 8 students. Indeed, a lesser number would not allow their distribution according to the recommended country ratio. In addition, work in commissions, which is part of the simulation process, would be less productive. Similarly, 20 is the maximum manageable number of students during total simulation. The attention to be devoted to students' progress and the group dynamics become a challenge with larger numbers. Therefore, beyond 20, the group would be divided and two concurrent simulations conducted, provided that staffing is not an issue for the institution. Topics and scenarios. On both occasions, the theme of the conference was inspired by current affairs relevant to the Caribbean region. In 2006, the conference was titled "Libre circulation des travailleurs à l'échelle mondiale: Faisabilité et conditions" (Feasibility and Conditions for a Global Free Movement of Labour). The theme was inspired by discussions taking place in the media about the Caribbean Single Market and Economy (CSME) put in place by CARICOM countries that year. The scenario was developed to involve a group of 9 countries, members of a regional organization seeking to achieve integration through free movement of workers. The 2009 edition of the conference, "Réchauffement climatique: Stratégies et équité" (Global Warming: Strategies and Equity) was inspired by the then ongoing international negotiations on global warming. The course started in September, just three months before the Copenhagen Summit. The scenario was based on the creation of an international organization, the Group of 14 (G14) specially dedicated to addressing the issue of global warming, and therefore holding its first conference accordingly. The choice of topics related to current international or regional issues stimulates the students' interest as they can have access to current reference material. They develop their critical thinking as they are exposed to various diverging opinions and asked to present their country's position at the start of the conference. For example, at the 2009 conference, the delegate of "Bonangue" expressed the country's position as follows: Conscient des graves effets [du réchauffement climatique] sur l'environnement, nous tenons à prendre action immédiatement parce que les effets poseront un problème pour le pays. Par le passé, la Bonangue a donné priorité aux revenus, dans certains cas, au détriment de l'environnement. Le pays est disposé à porter [sic] les changements nécessaires. The delegate of "Kalasie," on the contrary, indicated, "La Kalasie est favorable au recours aux crédits d'émission de gaz utilisables par les investisseurs." Another delegate from "Lisérbie" chose to stress the social impact and the importance to reach a consensus on the matter. The multiple and sometimes diverging country positions will contribute to the life of the conference as the objective is to find a common ground and sign a final resolution, which would bring the conference to a close. TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 79 Resources and methods. The course outline was developed in accordance with the prescribed textbook La Conférence Internationale et ses Variantes (Cali et al., 1992). The authors' recom-mendations were followed with some adjustments, which will be presented below. Since countries have to be fictitious to respect the principle of Total Simulation, two websites, CIA: The World Factbook, and Quid were used to establish the profile of these invented countries.2 Using the principle of 'mots-valises' students invented the name of the countries they were representing. For instance, "Lisérbie," "Kalasie" or "Dukenyah" were obviously created in reference to existing countries or regions. Other names were arbitrary and left to the students' imagination as "Cadeaux d'Ouest," "Amapour" or "Kadia." Other web resources were used in accordance with the theme of the conference and a companion website was developed on the University Virtual Learning Environment (OurVLE) (UWI, Mona "Virtual Learning Environment") to take advantage of information technology at our disposal at the Mona Campus. The 2006 intensive format. We introduced some slight variations from the standard format of the simulation. First, the course started with a screening of the French movie Saint-Germain ou la Négociation (2003) with Jean Rochefort. The objective was to highlight the objectives, modalities of diplomatic negotiations as well as to insist on the high-language register used during negotiations, which the students would have to use. Despite the historical context (the 16th century), the film was particularly suitable as it showed protocol and behind-the-scene events taking place during political negotiations. Secondly, students were given an introductory lecture on the processes of international conferences coupled with a tour of the Jamaica Conference Centre in Kingston. This was facilitated by a colleague and professional translator who worked at international conferences and was familiar with the facility. Various documents were made available online on a range of topics: international organizations pursuing regional integration through implementation of free movement of labor (the European Union, CARICOM) and a compilation of documents on immigration and globalization. In 2006, the course page on OurVLE was used only for archival purposes. The instructor, playing the part of the conference Secretary, uploaded for future reference documents that had been identified as relevant to the conference. Since the students' time were dedicated to the course, it was easy to simulate the rhythm of a conference with meetings in commission and plenary sessions. The course outline was design to be the "agenda" of the conference. The intensive format helped to develop a group dynamic based on solidarity and conviviality, which stimulated weaker students to make efforts to improve their proficiency. The 2009 semester-long format. The semester-long delivery of FREN 3118 differed from the intensive summer course on some points. The presentation by the guest lecturer and the film screening were maintained, but, due to timetable constraints, the tour of the Conference Centre did not take place. The main innovation was in the extensive use of the online module and the exploration of the functionalities offered by the Moodle platform supporting OurVLE TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 80 where all the material necessary for the presentation of the theme and the conduct of the activities of the conference were uploaded. All documents were made available online via OurVLE, expanding from print and website links to audio and video. Students' productions were added to the resources identified by the instructor. The instructor/facilitator provided the following resources: explanatory documents on global warming (its geopolitical implications and the negotiation process); documents with terminology used in diplomatic language; and audiovisual documents from France2, France3, and YouTube. A link to Yann Arthus-Bertrand's documentary Home (2009) was also put on the course portal. As Secretariat, the instructor/facilitator uploaded reports of sessions held during the preparatory phase (the preconference meetings). These reports gave students a regularly updated overview of progress made, a review of notions covered as well as the calendar of events (the schedule of meetings). Using the functionalities offered by Moodle, students were able to contribute to the development of the course portal. Using the 'upload a single file' and the forum features, they uploaded their own production, including country and delegate profiles, reports resulting from the sessions in commission and plenary sessions, and draft resolutions. The course portal was useful for archiving the various activities conducted during the course. Students were able to refer to a central repository outside of the contact hours. This tool also had financial and ecological benefits as it reduced the cost of photocopying. Indeed, whereas all documents had to be printed in 2006, only documents produced during the conference (student-generated commission and plenary reports, agenda and list of speakers) were printed for circulation in 2009. Because of the discontinuity of the timetable (3 hours spread over 13 weeks), the 2009 conference did not flow as harmoniously as the 2006 one. With competing interests, students found it difficult to dedicate themselves to the conference. Running from one class to another, they sometimes lost track of the conference objectives, which in turn had an impact on the group dynamics and progress as indicated by the results of the continuous assessment (i.e., the coursework). Evaluation and students' results. As mentioned earlier, the course assessment was done by 100% coursework. The percentage was equally divided between oral and writing proficiency (50% each). Oral proficiency was assessed as follows: delegate's address at the opening ceremony weighting 25%; delegate's interview at the press conference (15%); and one intervention as a journalist interviewing the delegates at the press conference (10%). Writing proficiency was assessed through a press release (10%), an individual proposal for the final resolution (15%), and one précis writing/critical review of document(s) (25%). Students' oral and written productions were graded using a criterion-referenced assessment grid (See Appendix B for details). In 2006, we got a 100% pass rate with results ranging from A+ to C. In 2009, the pass rate was 71.42%. With the intensive format, students demonstrated their mastery of high-level register. Students who were considered 'weak' based on their low grade in the general language courses, managed to improve their proficiency level and achieve acceptable performances in oral presentations. In 2009, there was a large gap between the TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 81 best and the weakest students (2 students got As, 4 students failed, and 8 students' grades ranged from B+ to D). Group average was 49.79%. When comparing the two groups' results, we have to admit that we had some doubts initially about the intensive format because of the limited time given to students to properly absorb the notions and the various tasks required in the course. Yet, it appears that stretching the process over a semester is not a decisive factor for improved performance. The role of group dynamics in total simulation is yet to be measured though it is generally recognized in class interaction and learning. During the regular semester, the group dynamics did not play a cohesive role as it did in the summer course where more proficient students helped to strengthen the weaker ones. Competing academic interests and irregular attendance during the regular semester also had an impact on students' low performance. Conclusion At the UWI, Mona, we introduced LSP courses in our academic programs as part of our major from a pragmatic standpoint in reviewing our curriculum. Though we are aware that LSP courses generally target professionals already in the field, as a result, the design and offering of such courses is usually preceded by a need analysis and the identification of the language processes (i.e., register, lexicon, syntax, speech acts) needed to achieve the requested proficiency (Mangiante & Parpette, 2004). Both "Business French" and "French for International Conferences" count toward the major, though only one can be taken as a core course, the other being an elective. Because LSP courses have a professional orientation, they give undergraduates the impression of being prepared for the world of work. The use of total simulation comforts this impression because of its task-based approach and the fact that it recreates a work environment with its idiosyncrasies. Combined with information technology (OurVLE), it becomes an original and valuable method. The dual-mode adds flexibility to the course and expands access to authentic material. However, success depends heavily on students' learning autonomy, which is enhanced by a tool like OurVLE. Motivation and participation are essential for the success of students as evidenced by the results of the third-year student who was accepted while doing the first module of level II French and was one of the top two students in the course. Our experience suggests that the intensive format yields better results because it reinforces student concentration, dedication, and performance, which also benefit from the positive impact of the group dynamics. Recent development in the field shows an orientation toward multimedia and information technology to create virtual worlds where Total Simulation is made possible on a large scale. The combination of the two is very promising for language learning and teaching but presents new challenges to foreign language teachers and course developers. Notes 1Cali, Cheval, & Debardi (1992) identify the following categories: developing countries, developed countries, least developed countries, and Central or Eastern European countries in transition towards market economy. The latter category being now obsolete, the decision was made to replace it with countries in the same geographical region. TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 82 2See https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/ and http://www.quid.fr. References Arthus-Bertrand, Y. (2009). Home. Home Project. Retrieved (September–November 2009) from http://www.youtube.com/homeprojectFR L'auberge. Retrieved February 21, 2010 from http://auberge.int.univ-lille3.fr/ Bourdeau, M., Bouygue, & M., Gatein, J. J. (1992). Le congrès médical: Simulation globale sur objectifs spécifiques. Ministère des affaires étrangères, sous direction de la coopération linguistique et éducative, CIEP-BELC, 1991/92. Sèvres: CIEP. Cali, C., Cheval, M., & Zabardi, A. (1992). La conférence internationale et ses variantes. Paris: Hachette, Français langue étrangère. Mangiante, J. M., & Parpette, C. (2004). Le français sur objectifs spécifiques: De l'analyse des besoins à l'élaboration d'un cours. Paris: Hachette. Le Monde Diplomatique. 2009. Paris: Editions "Le Monde." Retrieved from http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/ Virtual Cabinet. Retrieved February 21, 2010 from http://sites.univ-lyon2.fr/vcab/demo/ Yaiche, F. (1996). Les simulations globales: Mode d'emploi. Paris: Hachette, Français langue étrangère. TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 83 APPENDICES Appendix A Original submission to the Academic Quality Assurance Committee of the UWI, Mona Campus in 2003–2004. The assessment was subsequently modified to 100 percent coursework in 2005–2006. DEPARTMENT OF MODERN LANGUAGES & LITERATURES COURSE PROPOSAL Course Title: French for International Conferences Course Code: FREN 3118 Level: 3 Semester: 1 Credits: 3 Prerequisite: A Pass in F24A (FREN 2001) Co-requisite: F34A (FREN 3001) Contact hours: 4 hours per weeks (1 lecture, 1 writing tutorial, 1 oral expression, 1 listening comprehension) Rationale: French is one of the major languages of the United Nations and other inter-national institutions. In response to increased demand for specialized foreign language courses, this course will introduce students to the technical French of international relations and negotiations Course description: This course is designed to reproduce an international conference setting during which various aspects of diplomatic negotiations will be envisaged with a view to using French at the formal/foreign affairs level. Objectives: At the end of the course students should be able to  Demonstrate understanding of French spoken in a formal/diplomatic setting  Read articles in French on international issues.  Write press reviews, press releases in French about an international issue.  Express a personal view about a topical International issue in French  Express a simulated official view about a topical International issue in French  Simulate an official address in French  Simulate a press conference in French TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 84 ASSESSMENT 50% in-course: 3 one-hour in-class tests: Reading comprehension (15%); Writing (20%); Listening comprehension (15%) 50% Final Examination: Oral presentation (25%) and 2-hour written examination (25%) TEXTS La Conférence Internationale et ses Variantes. Chantal Cali, Mireille Cheval and Antoinette Zabardi. Paris: Hachette Livre, Français Langue Étrangère, 1995. Audio-visual material from TV5 (such as Kiosque, Une fois par mois, Le dessous des cartes). Articles from journals such as Le monde diplomatique. REFERENCES Plaisant, François. (2000). Le ministère des affaires étrangères. Toulouse: Editions Milan, Les Essentiels Milan, 2000. Kessler, Marie-Christine. (1998). La politique étrangère de la France. Paris: Presses de Sciences-Po. http://www.france.diplomatie.gouv.fr Appendix 2. Assessment grid for oral presentation Official Address: (5-minute presentation at the Opening Ceremony). Press Conference Part 1 and 2: Presentation of Country Position followed by Questions and Answer session). Students plays the country official and then the journalist parts. FREN 3118: Oral Presentation Assessment Grid NAME: Grade Comments Relevance of Arguments /5 Fluency /5 Consistent use of high-language register /3 Communicative skills /2 Accuracy and richness of vocabulary /5 Accuracy and use of complex syntactic structures /5 Accurate pronunciation /5 FINAL GRADE (25%) /25 TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 85 FREN 3118: Press Conference Assessment Grid—Presenter NAME: Grade Comments Relevance of Arguments (5 pts. x 3 = 15) Presentation Answer (1) Answer (2) Fluency (5 pts. x 3 = 15) Presentation Answer (1) Answer (2) Consistent Use of High Language Register (3 pts. x 3 = 9) Presentation Answer (1) Answer (2) Communicative skills (2 pts. x 3 = 6) Presentation Answer (1) Answer (2) Accuracy and Richness of Vocabulary (5 pts. x 3 = 15) Presentation Answer (1) Answer (2) Accuracy and Use of Complex Syntactic Structures (5 pts. x 3 = 15) Presentation Answer (1) Answer (2) Accurate Pronunciation /5 marks x 3 = 15 Presentation Answer (1) Answer (2) Unconverted Total (90 pts.) / FINAL GRADE (15%) TOTAL SIMULATION IN TEACHING LSP Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 86 FREN 3118: Press Conference Assessment Grid—Journalist NAME: Grade Comments Relevance of question (5 pts. x 4 = 20) Question 1 (Name) Question 2 (Name) Question 3 (Name) Question 4 (Name) Fluency (5 pts. x 4 = 20) Question 1 (Name) Question 2 (Name) Question 3 (Name) Question 4 (Name) Consistent use of high-language register (3 pts. x 4 = 12) Question 1 (Name) Question 2 (Name) Question 3 (Name) Question 4 (Name) Accuracy and richness of vocabulary (5 pts. x 4 = 20) Question 1 (Name) Question 2 (Name) Question 3 (Name) Question 4 (Name) Accuracy and use of complex syntactic structures (5 pts. x 4 = 20) Question 1 (Name) Question 2 (Name) Question 3 (Name) Question 4 (Name) Accurate pronunciation (5 marks x 4 = 20) Question 1 (Name) Question 2 (Name) Question 3 (Name) Question 4 (Name) Unconverted Total (112 pts.) FINAL GRADE (10%)

Bernice C. Stromberg ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 40p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Bernice C. Stromberg Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 3 October 2012 24 October 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Bernice C. Stromberg Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 3 October 2012 24 October 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Stromberg, Bernice C., an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 3 and 24 October 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Bernice Stromberg October 24, 2012 1 Abstract: Bernice sat down with Rebecca Ory Hernandez in October of 2012 to share stories of growing up and moving several times with her family in Southern Utah. Her father was a well-respected music teacher. Bernice is the widow of Mr. C. William "Bill" Stromberg of Ogden, UT, who served on the founding Board of the Stewart Education Foundation. During this time, Bernice became very good friends with Elizabeth Stewart. Bernice is also a very good friend of former Weber State University President, F. Ann Milner. Since Bill's passing in 2010, Bernice has remained a regular attendee of many WSU events, especially football games. The Stromberg Complex is named in Bernice and Bill's honor. ROH: Today is Wednesday, October 3, 2012. We are in the home of Bernice Stromberg in Ogden, Utah. I am Rebecca Ory Hernandez with Weber State University and the Stewart Library. Why don't you tell me when and where you were born? BS: I was born in Kanab, in Kane County Utah, on January 12, 1927. My dad taught music in the high school down there. The day I was born, my dad and the doctor were going to go to a basketball game, but when dad got home from teaching, there was the doctor waiting for him. My mother was on her knees scrubbing her floor. Dad said, "We're going to the ball game." The doctor said, "Oh no, we're not. I've turned our tickets in. We're going to have a baby around here if I can get you to get your wife into bed." So Dad did. My dad had arranged for the neighbor to take the three older girls just to get them out of the way. I was the youngest in the family. He told my sisters as he dropped them off, "Now when you get home you're going to have a really nice 2 surprise. So you be good and when I get home I'm going to show you your surprise." When the girls came home, after I was born, they all cried and said, "I thought it was going to be a puppy or candy or ice cream or something. Not just a baby." I have always said, "It's good that I didn't know it then because I would have had my feelings hurt." ROH: How much distance is there between you and your sisters age-wise? BS: The one just older than me is Arlene and she is three years and three months. My oldest sister, Rachael, was seven years older. My next oldest sister was Lois and she was about five years older. ROH: So there were four girls total in your family? SB: Four girls, no brothers. When I got married, I didn't know boys teased like they do and I had a hard time dealing with some of these things that came up in our marriage because I didn't know how to respond. It was a wonderful life with a house full of girls. ROH: What was your maiden name? BS: Christensen. We did not live in Kanab terribly long because as happens in school nowadays and all time, what's the first thing they cut from schools? This was during the depression. ROH: Art and music? BS: Art, music and all of those things. They cut out the music department. Dad played the violin. He lost his job and couldn't get a job anywhere. Later in life, he 3 was in the first Utah Symphony Orchestra as the first violinist. It was a WPA Project. Reginald Beal was his director and Dad loved the Orchestra. It was a great time of his life. ROH: Where were your parents from? BS: They were from Moroni, Utah in Sanpete County. My ancestors came from Denmark. Most of the Scandinavian people settled in that part of Utah. That's where my parents were both born. I don't remember what year they came over from Denmark, but most of the family came. Mother and Dad went to high school there, from kindergarten to High School. They said it was a fun town. My sisters and I loved to go down there to visit. Grandma Christensen would let us go to the chicken coop and each gather one egg. We would take them to the grocery store and spend them or a bag of candy of our choice. Moroni is just East of Nephi, in the valley there. Dad finally bought a Model A Ford. It had no heater and no air conditioning. It took four hours in that Model A to go down Moroni to visit and we would come home the same night. We weren't real happy going down just because of the long ride. Mother would heat rocks or bricks in the oven and get blankets and coats to keep us warm and we four girls would sit across the back seat. We kept warm but we didn't like to stay so cooped up for that long. ROH: Did your mom work in the home or outside of the home as well? BS: She did work outside of the home. We were very poor after the Depression and we had no money. Many times we didn't know where the next meal was coming 4 from. I ate more bread and milk during that time than I would ever like to say because sometimes that's all we had. Mother would make bread because she had flour but we all liked it fixed differently. I liked mine hot with salt on it. My dad liked it cold with sugar on it. The rest of them just had their own way of having it too. It kept us alive and we got along just fine. My mother, bless her heart, made such a pleasant home. In the summertime for every meal, no matter what we had to eat, there was always a bouquet of flowers and a tablecloth on the table. She loved flowers and she grew a lot of them. We moved a lot during my life. I was teased quite often from my friends because of this. They'll say, "Name a town, Bernice lived there." ROH: Tell me some of the places you moved to that you can remember. BS: We moved to Richfield when we left Kanab. Dad did a number of jobs there to feed us. He sold the Deseret Newspaper and did anything he could find for work. I was only three when I lived there, but this time is the clearest part of my memory. I don't know how mother let us do some of the things we did. We had an irrigation ditch in front of our house and we had a wide canal in the back of the barn a little ways. The girls would go down to the canal and pick Potawatomi Plums to make jam. (They were named after some of the Indians in Southern Utah. When Bill and I moved to our home in Ogden, I found a tree just like them in my backyard. I said, "My word where did that come from up here?" They were really good). One day, I just thought, "I'm going to go with the girls down to the canal". We all were down there and I decided I wanted to go home, so I left by myself and decided to take a short cut. The field next to where we lived was all in 5 clover that was in blossom. I thought, "I'll just run fast through that field." By the time I got home I had literally hundreds of bee stings on my ankles and my feet. My feet were swollen and they really hurt. I did learn to never go through that part of the backyard again. We had a lot of fun experiences there and some not so fun ones. We had two dogs. One was a black and white spotted bird dog. The other was a curly haired white dog. I was so afraid of that white dog, because she would get hold of my coat in the cold weather and she would just shake her head as hard as she could and drag me all over the yard. I couldn't get away from her. The big dog was my companion for my nap. We would lie behind the coal stove and he'd lay his arm over my shoulder and we'd have a nice nap together. ROH: That's very sweet. BS: It was. I really slept so good back then. I remember that my mother made handmade soap. You have to use ashes for that, so she'd burn her trash out in our backyard and get the ashes from there. ROH: Did you have any other family around? BS: No. Before I was born there were places they lived that had some around. They lived in Bingham and they had an experience up there. Mother had Lois (my sister) sleeping in her crib in front of the window of the bedroom on the back side of the house. A huge rock dislodged and rolled down the mountain, through the window and into Lois' crib. My mother just knew she was gone, but she was up in 6 the corner of the crib and the big rock went in the rest of the bed. Lois was not touched at all. We felt that was a great miracle. We moved to Salt Lake from there when I was in kindergarten. The only thing I remember about kindergarten was that we had to take naps. We had to bring a blanket and a pillow. I would lay mine down and this little boy in my class named Danny would wait until I lay down and he'd bring his blanket and lie down right next to me. It irritated me to no end. I would get up and move somewhere else and he would too. He was determined to take his nap next to me. That's all I remember about kindergarten. ROH: You don't remember learning to read and write, just remember that. BS: We didn't learn to read and write until the first grade. ROH: Oh you didn't? BS: Kindergarten was more of a social learning and how to share with the other children. It was learning how to get along with other children and it was a playtime. The teacher would read stories to us, but we didn't have reading or writing. We'd color and things like that, but we didn't have any kind of instruction while we were there. ROH: That must have been fun. BS: It was. About this time Dad heard that California had all the jobs, so we up and went to California. ROH: What part of California? 7 BS: Oakland. Dad and Mother both tried to find work there. ROH: What year is this? BS: I was five so about 1931. I don't remember much about California because we weren't there long enough. We rented the basement of a big home. I have no idea what they paid for it, but I know the lady gave it to them for almost nothing. My mother and dad even got down to the point where they were selling toothpaste door-to-door to earn enough money to feed us. I remember we had sub for Santa that year. Someone brought in all of these boxes for our Christmas. It didn't bother us. Everybody was in the same situation. The only thing is my mother thought I had measles, come to find out it was fleas. We had fleas in the beds so bad that mother had to take the bedding outside to shake them and wash them often. I was allergic to the flea bites and I was covered from head to toe. That's why she thought I had measles. They itched. Oh my gosh, I thought I'd die during that time. We used to go out in the desert and get turtles. We loved the desert turtles. They are very calm. Dad would drill a hole through the back of their shell and chain them to a post in the ground so they wouldn't run away. It wasn't harmful and it didn't hurt them. We fed them religiously, particularly the outside leaves of the lettuce and what food we didn't eat. It was a fun time there. We looked forward to Christmas, because that is the only time in the year that we got an orange. Oh, I looked forward to that one orange we would get. 8 ROH: What were some of the things you would eat when they did have a little bit of money? BS: We would eat vegetables. Mother would usually plant a garden. We would have a little bit of meat. Some of the neighbors that had cows would bring us over some milk. Fruit was too expensive. We just couldn't buy fruit, except to can for the coming winter. ROH: Except for those plums. BS: Yes. While living in Oakland, my sister, Arlene, had an assignment in her school class to draw a picture with snow in it. None of the kids had really seen snow because it wasn't cold enough. Arlene drew a picture and the ground was all black and the snowflakes were black. The teacher said, "I thought snow was white." She said, "Well, you've never seen Salt Lake snow then." Everybody in Utah used coal stoves to heat their houses, so it would be absolutely black in a day or two from the soot and smoke of burning coal. Arlene thought the snow was black. It makes sense. ROH: It does to a child. BS: Soon, California announced that they would pay the train fare for anyone that would go back to their home state. We decided we'd take advantage of it because we were worse off there than we were at home. So, we went back home and when we got there, I broke out in red measles. ROH: Were you the only one out of the four girls that caught it? 9 BS: Yes. I also had pneumonia with them. We had no place to go when we got to Utah, so my aunt took us in. We'd sleep on the floor in front of the fireplace. I would open my eyes when we'd lie down there and see these spinning things all over the fireplace. Of course, I was hallucinating from the fever. We lived with my aunt until we found a place on 5th East and 4th South. It was just one room above a business. It had no refrigeration and no air conditioning. It had nothing in it but beds for us to sleep on. You had to go down the hall to use the bathroom. I was still very sick when we moved in. They had the doctor come out again and he told mother, "That child has to have milk, or I'm not sure she's going to make it." Mother said, "I can't afford milk." He said, "Use canned milk and dilute it." We had no place to keep it cold if I didn't drink the whole thing in one day. It was always warm. That was the worst thing I ever drank. I don't like canned milk to this day. I use it for cooking, but I don't like it. ROH: Was your dad able to find a teaching job in Salt Lake? BS: Not at first. He was still struggling to find one. He decided he was going to open a printing shop. He would print and help distribute things. The business did not make much more money. We were still struggling. We finally found a little house in back of a larger house. I remember while we were there that if we were naughty, Dad would say, "You need your legs switched." But he wouldn't go out and cut the switches. We had to go out and cut our own switches. We would try to find the thinnest switches we could find. But we soon found out that they would 10 sting worse than the thicker ones. We straightened up pretty fast with that. It did not happen very often after that. ROH: I would imagine. Let's take you back to Salt Lake. Were you in school in Salt Lake after you got well from the measles? BS: Yes. We came back to Salt Lake City before I finished first grade. I went to the Liberty School there in Salt Lake. I remember only three of my teachers in school and that's all. In the first grade, her name was Ms. Anderson. My fourth grade teacher was Ms. Morgan. In the sixth grade, I had Ms. Jensen. In those times, a married woman could not teach school. I had a lot of girlfriends during my school years. After we graduated, 2 of them moved to the Ogden/Weber County area. It was great to renew our friendships. ROH: At what point did you move to Ogden? BS: We moved to Clearfield when my dad finally found a good job at Hill Field. My mother was working at the Ogden Arsenal. I also worked at the Ogden Arsenal between my junior and senior year of high school. I worked for a captain as a stenographer. His name was Captain Haugh. He said, "As soon as you graduate next year, come back and I'll hold your job for you." And he did. I had to report back to work on the last day of school. I checked with the Principal and he said that if I did not attend that last day, I could not graduate. I went to work that last day and when I went to graduation no one said anything about it and I graduated with the rest of the class. 11 ROH: Which high school did you attend? BS: I attended South High School in Salt Lake. ROH: Where were you in junior high? BS: In junior high I was at Lincoln. During the time I was in junior high we only went to junior high for two years. 7th grade was half a year and 8th grade was half a year. This meant that we only went to school a total of 11 years, so I graduated at 17 years old. ROH: Were you in Salt Lake for a long time? BS: I was in Salt Lake City all through my school years, until I came up to Clearfield to work. I was the only one at home by the time we moved to Clearfield, my sisters were all married. They all married within four months of each other. ROH: Wow. Your mom was busy. BS: She was busy. I think it's easier if you have them close together. I had Louise and Connie get married one in January and one in August. That was harder to do because we were out of the mood, having them all together is almost easier. ROH: Were you involved in helping your sisters with their wedding decorations? BS: Oh yes. And we all wore the same wedding gown. My mother made my oldest sister's wedding gown and we all wore the same one. We couldn't afford more than one. ROH: Do you have pictures of everyone in the same gown? 12 BS: No. I have a picture of mine and Rachael had hers. The other two didn't have a reception so there were no pictures. Unfortunately, the dress couldn't be worn to the temple, but it was fun for us all to wear the same one. ROH: Do you still have the gown? BS: No, my oldest sister had it and I don't know where it is now. She passed away a year ago. ROH: I hope she kept it in the family. BS: I'm sure it is. I think her daughter, Susan, may have taken it. ROH: That's a special gown if four girls got married in the same dress. You touched a little bit about the fact that the Depression was going on. Do you have any memories of the Depression other than not having food to eat? The further we get away from it, the more people seem to forget that it was real. BS: It was very real. We were all aware of it. I don't remember a whole lot as I was young when it began. When World War II started, gas was rationed, shoes were rationed, food was rationed, and meat was rationed. You couldn't get butter, you had to use margarine. It came white and had a yellow pill in it. You'd break that pill and knead it in the plastic bag until it was yellow. They couldn't sell it yellow. Sugar was rationed. We had food stamps for all of this. We were still feeling the effects of the Depression and when the war started it got even worse. I remember the day they announced the war on Sunday, December 7th. In Salt Lake at that time, the newspaper would send out a special edition 13 newspaper and the newsboys would go up and down all of the streets in Salt Lake saying, "Extra, extra! Read all about it," trying to sell newspapers. They said, "The Japanese have attacked the United States in Hawaii." I was just getting ready to go to Sunday school and that's the way I heard it. After the World War II started, we still had to watch pennies. ROH: Were your older sisters working? BS: Yes, they all started working when they graduated from high school. My oldest sister, Rachael, went on a mission for our church to New York. The rest of us worked during this time. Arlene tried to go to the University of Utah. She graduated from high school when she was sixteen. She just could not seem to fit in with all the people at the University, because they were older than she was, so she got a job. I went to work during my senior year of high school. ROH: How did you get that job? BS: Well, because of the war the men were all gone, so all the women had to take on the jobs that the men weren't here to do. I was very fortunate. I got a job at Deseret Book typing school orders for the Salt Lake schools. ROH: Was that being done at Hill Field? BS: No, I never worked at Hill Field; I worked at the Ogden Arsenal. Let me get back to that in a minute. You asked me how I moved to Clearfield. We decided that as long as all three of us, Mom, Dad and I, were working up here in this part of the state, we might as well move up here, rather than make that drive every day. So, 14 the family moved to Clearfield. We lived right there next to the Ogden Arsenal. It was closer to work. ROH: Was there a train at that time? BS: The Bamberger. Only the older people know about the Bamberger, at least the younger generation doesn't. How can that be? ROH: Everybody talks to me about Bamberger. That Bamberger was very important. BS: When Bill and I were dating, we had to date by riding the Bamberger. He was in Ogden and I was in Clearfield. We didn't have a car, and he couldn't get any gas because it was rationed. He got 15 gallons of gas a week to go to work and he could have two gallons of gas for pleasure. Gas was a lot cheaper then, it was only about 18 cents a gallon. ROH: It still didn't get you that far. BS: Exactly, we didn't have the gas. I had money to buy gas, but gas was not available to buy. ROH: So your job was at Deseret Book? BS: Yes, I worked at Deseret Book in Salt Lake and I'd go in at 1:00 p.m. and I'd work until 6:00 p.m. President McKay, before he was President of the LDS Church, spent so much time in the Deseret Book, and I got well-acquainted with him. In fact, he married Bill and me. He was also my mother and dad's friend and we, Bill and I, visited his office and asked him to perform our ceremony. 15 ROH: Today is Wednesday, October 24, 2012. We are in the home of Bernice Stromberg in Ogden, Utah. Present are Bernice and Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State. Before I turned on the recorder you said there were a couple of things that we didn't talk about last time. Why don't you go ahead and tell me a little bit about your mom? BS: When I was in grade school, mother finally decided she would certainly like a washing machine. We had been using the scrub board. She said, "I'm going to go to work so I can buy a washing machine." She worked for a dress factory and her job was sewing sleeves on dresses all day long for 10 cents an hour. She was such a beautiful seamstress. She went on later to work for Ehlers Drapery Company. She made band uniforms and the heavy velvet stage curtains for schools and churches. I don't know how she did it because she was just a little bitty lady. ROH: Drapes like what you would see at an auditorium or a stage? BS: Yes. When I was a junior in high school, she quit work. That was the most delightful thing I had happen in my life because it was so nice to come home from school with my mother there. The house was warm and smelled good because she had been baking and cooking. It was such a wonderful feeling to have mother there when I got home. I was the youngest, so I was the first home all the time. Another thing I hated about coming home and being alone when I came home school, was the fact that we only had a coal stove in the kitchen that we cooked on and a Franklin pot belly stove in the living room for heat. Since I 16 was the first one home, I had to build all the fires in the stoves. I did this from the time I was probably eight years old. (When Bill and I were married, he couldn't even build a fire in a fireplace. I'd have to build the fire in the fireplace because he couldn't get it to start—even though he had been a boy scout). My high school years were not the most fun time in my life. I loved school, but there was just too much drama going on and people hurting one another's feelings. In my year book, one of the girls wrote, "Bernice, I really would have liked to get to know you better, but you were always so stuck up." I was not stuck up, I was very shy. I was totally afraid of strangers and other things. I was so shy that I would hold myself back and she thought I was just avoiding them all. Had I known, I might have done things differently. ROH: You graduated, but you didn't walk? BS: Yes, I graduated and I did walk. Education has always been so important to Bill and me. Neither of us had the opportunity to go to college. As I mentioned before, we were very poor and going through the Depression. There was no money. I could go to work, but I couldn't earn enough to pay tuition. Mother and Dad couldn't work more than they already were, so I was unable to go to college. Bill tried to get in the service, but they wouldn't take him because of football injuries he'd had in high school. ROH: Where did Bill go to high school? BS: Ogden High. 17 ROH: Let's talk a little bit about Bill's background as far as you are aware. Where did he grow up? BS: He was born and raised in Salt Lake until he was nine when his dad moved to Ogden because he got a better job there. ROH: What was his dad doing? BS: At that time, he worked as a grocery salesman. He'd go around to the stores and get all the food orders. He had all of Utah, part of Southern Idaho, and part of Wyoming as his district. He would write up all the orders and turn them into the grocery chain. ROH: Does the grocery chain still exist? BS: They're gone now. The building is still there on Wall Avenue with the name on it, Utah Wholesale Grocery. Bill grew up in Ogden and graduated from Ogden High School. He played football and that was very important to him. ROH: What position did he play? BS: Tight end. He played both offense and defense back then. His school took region the year he graduated. After graduation he went to California to the Curtis Wright Air Technical School and learned to be an airplane overhaul mechanic. He liked mechanics, so he went there by himself. He had a buddy that was going with him, but he decided not to go. Bill told him, "I don't care. I'm going anyway." He went and when he came back he was 18 and went immediately to work for Hill Field. 18 ROH: What was Bill's date of birth? BS: It was the 28th of February, 1925. He worked at Hill Field and loved what he was doing. We got married on August 29, 1945. I was still working at the Ogden Arsenal. I was eighteen and he was twenty. He lost his job three weeks after we got married. They were laying people off at the Base and if you didn't have military experience, you were the first to go. He was one of the first to go. I said, "I'm not sure this is quite fair, I go to work every day and you stay home." He got another job at the Navy base which was located where Freeport Center is now. He worked there for three years and then Hill started hiring and hired him again. He had been a warehouse man at the Navy base and when he went back to Hill, he qualified for a desk job rather than mechanics. Before he retired from Hill Air Force Base, he was the Branch Chief for the Material Management Department. He had been able to work himself up. ROH: When did he retire? BS: He retired in 1977. He was 52 years old. He called me one day from work and he said, "I've got a chance to retire Bernice, what should I do?" I asked, "Well, how is it going to affect our income?" He said, "It won't affect it a bit." They wanted to release one of the highest paid positions. So when they came back to him, he said, "Okay, I'm letting go of myself." They said, "You can't do that." He said, "Yes I can." They said, "We'll transfer you." He said, "You can't. That's an adverse action." So, he retired. 19 He had a lot of things he was interested in doing after that. He went into land development and timeshare. It was a blessing in disguise. I didn't work terribly long after we were married. I stayed home and became a housewife. We couldn't have children right away and didn't have Christine until 1947. My neighbor once came to see me and said, "Bernice, I need to talk to you." I said, "Okay, what do you need?" She said, "You know how when girls get married and they have babies right soon everybody talks about them? Everybody at church now is talking about you and Bill and why you're not having children." I said, "I wish I knew why we weren't having them. I don't know." We really did want children, so after a year or so I went to my doctor and he said, "You'll never have any children." I had a growth that had totally filled the uterus. He took that out I got pregnant right away and have had six children. ROH: You had many children. BS: It was a great thing. ROH: How did you meet Bill? BS: A girl that worked in the same office with me and I became very good friends. One day she said to me, "There are two really good looking guys that go to Mutual. Come with me" I said, "Okay." It was Bill and Glen Robertson. Bill asked me on a date. The way we had to date was even funnier because gas rationing was still on. I lived in Clearfield and he lived in Ogden. The Bamberger was still running 20 and it would run to Ogden. The only stop close to where I lived was at the West gate of Hill Field and the Ogden Arsenal in Clearfield. I would take the train to Ogden and we'd go on our date. Bill would pick me up at the station and then take me back to the station after the date. I would then take the train back and then I'd have to walk on the highway to my house. I lived in a housing development down the street. When I think back on it now, that was a dangerous thing to do because sometimes it would be 10:00 or 11:00 at night and it was always after dark. But it was a different time then entirely. Telephone calls were ten cents each and ten cents was a lot of money then. We had to really plan our dating so that we could use the train for transportation and not have to use the phone to make plans. ROH: Where did you like to go when you did go out on dates? BS: We would go to movies, go for long walks, get ice cream cones, or we danced often at White City Ballroom. There was a hamburger place down on Grant Ave and everybody went there. It was open for years and they were the best hamburgers in Ogden. The place was run by a husband and wife. When they gave it up their children didn't want it. They helped for a while and then they didn't want it, so they sold it. It was a block west of Washington on Grant Ave. Of course, things have changed so much since then. ROH: Where did you get married? BS: We got married in Salt Lake at the LDS Temple. 21 ROH: Where was your first home? BS: It was a duplex on the corner of 29th Street and Jackson. ROH: Is it still there? BS: Yes. We had no furniture or anything, but we were stable. I said, "You know it is amazing what you could do without." We were as poor then as I had been all my life. He hadn't had to do without so he was not use to it. We bought a little wooden table and chairs for the kitchen. His mother gave us a hide-a-bed couch. I had a rocking chair that my mother gave us and we bought a bedroom set. Later on, we were able to buy a washer and dryer. Sometimes we would have no more than ten cents, after paying the bills and buying food, and we would walk up to Harrison Blvd.to Judy's Ice Cream Store and we'd each buy an ice cream cone with that dime. We were broke. We both worked the first year and our annual income was 2500 dollars. That's what we lived on and that's what we bought the furniture with. A Grocery Store was just kitty-corner from where we lived. We had a big garden and we would sell a bushel of tomatoes to that store. They were always glad to get homegrown produce like that. Food was cheap back then. Lettuce was 5 cents, bread 10 cents and hamburger was 25 cents a pound. ROH: Did everyone have a garden at that time? BS: Yes. During World War II, they asked everybody to have a victory garden. Everybody who had a place where they could plant a garden did. I loved my 22 garden. I even planted some veggies out here this last year. I wanted some tomatoes, zucchini and cucumbers so I had one little spot where I took out roses and put in veggies. We really had a wonderful life. He brought home $64 everyday two weeks. We had to pay rent, buy groceries and we had to pay all our utilities, but we never went into debt. It's just amazing what you could do that back then. When we were first married, Bill had a yellow convertible. Later on, He sold that car and we bought a lot next door to Bill's parents on Mount Ogden Drive for 500 dollars. We built a house on it. It was a nice home. Our lot was large and went through the whole block. Years later, we sold the bottom half to a younger couple and they built a house on the bottom half of the lot. Soon all of the property owners did that. ROH: When you were home alone before you had children, how did you fill your time? BS: I started out right away working in my church and with young women. I was 18 years old and I taught girls that were 17 years old. I did lot of things with them. I also started doing genealogy work. I worked periodically. I worked as a ward clerk at the old Thomas Dee Hospital and I volunteered a few years in the McKay Dee Hospital. I told Elizabeth Stewart once, "I want to volunteer." They had come in with a grandmother program at the McKay Hospital where older women would go into the nursery to feed the preemie babies. Elizabeth said, "I'd like to go with you but I wonder if they'd let me not ever having any children". We went over and they said, "You bet." We would go over once a week and feed these teeny tiny 23 babies. She absolutely loved it. They have done away with the program now. I don't know why. One day, I had a little colored baby. He was so cute. His name was Maurice. I fed him, held him, and talked to him. He just grinned. I said, "You can't grin." He didn't weigh five pounds yet and he was 3 months old by that time and he could grin. I thought, "You're too little to smile." That was a great time in my life. I had plenty of things that I could do. ROH: Tell me about your children. BS: Christine was born in 1947. She was not a happy baby. She cried night and day for seven months and we'd take turns sleeping. I would sleep a few hours and Bill would sleep a few hours. But she was a beautiful baby. She wasn't even red or anything. She had such fair skin and looked like she was two or three months old when she was born. She got her first teeth at two months. She has taught school. She graduated from Ogden High Schools and Weber State University. She earned both a Bachelor's and Master's Degree. She married Travis D. Crowther. We encouraged all of our children go to college because we felt it was very important. She received a "normal scholarship" in the education department. You had to teach in Ogden schools for one year if you accepted that scholarship. It covered the tuition. She went through college and always said, "I really want to be a college bum. I would like to go to college all my life and never quit." She's done that and gone into so many things. She taught anything from second grade to sixth grade. They wanted her to go into high school teaching, but she said, "I don't want to because if kids don't get a good foundation in elementary school, they have too much trouble in junior high and high school." She's retired now. 24 ROH: She's not still going to school? BS: No. Both she and Travis are retired and they want to travel and be with their grandchildren Richard was our second child born in 1949. He was a good baby and a good child. But he's now so full of, I do not know what. He's always teasing. Sometimes I wonder about him. He went to Weber State University too, for computer science. When he got his master's degree, he went into mathematics. He decided mathematics would do him more good in what he'd probably end up doing. So he got his master's in mathematics and went to work for Phillips Oil. He works at Northrop Grumman as an engineer in missiles now. Richard had a hard start in school. In the first grade, I was very worried about him. He would go to school, but I knew he wasn't learning to read or the other things he should be learning. I would call the teacher and go to all the parent teacher conferences and she would say, "He's just doing fine." At the end of the school year, that teacher said, "You might just as well forget that boy. He's never going to learn anything." I said, "You've been telling me all year he was doing fine." She said, "Well he isn't. He's not smart enough to learn." I found out later that he had spent the entire first grade on a chair in the closet or out in the hall. She didn't like him and she didn't want to be bothered with him. I went to the principal and that teacher was transferred the next year. I was not the only parent that had problems with her. So Richard had a hard time trying to catch up. When he was in the fourth grade he had a marvelous teacher, May DeLange. She called me on the phone and said, "Bernice, will you have Richard do his oral reading at home 25 and I'll have him do the silent reading at school. They all make so much fun of him and call him Bucky Beaver." You see, his front teeth stuck out so far that he could not pronounce some letters. He could not have his teeth fixed until he was 11 years old. He really developed quite an inferiority complex, which you wouldn't know nowadays. Through high school he still had problems. Every time they had a parent teacher conference I'd get a letter that said, "You need to bring Richard in. He's failing in school." I made an appointment and went over to discuss this with his teacher. He told me that he gets an A on every exam, but he never hands in one page of homework. You get that many zero's, the A's can't cover it. I asked him, "Why? I know you do your homework because we all sat at the table and you did it." He said, "I know. It's in my locker." I said, "Why didn't you turn it in?" He said, "Because I think it's about time they grade you on what you know and not what you do." When he graduated from college, he did some graduate student teaching at BYU. I asked him one day, "Do you require your students to hand in their homework." He said, "Well, of course, how can I watch and follow their progress?" I said, "My how things have changed since you went to high school." He graduated from Weber State University and received his Master's from Utah State University. He married Pamela Day Cook. Third was Louise, born in 1951. She was so timid that many the kids bullied her. She'd go down to wait for the school bus but she wouldn't get on the bus, she'd walk back home. I didn't always have a car to take her to school because we only owned one car and Bill had to take it to work. She had to wear glasses in the first grade and that bothered her too. She was such a smart girl. 26 She attended Weber State University for her Associate degree in Nursing. She went on and finished her Bachelor's and Master's Degrees. She is now just finishing her Doctorate Degree. She teaches nursing at Weber State. At this time, she has passed her doctoral exam and only has her dissertation to do in her doctorate of nursing education. She is married to Michael Salmond. She has four children—two sets of twins. Fourth, came Connie and she was something else. She was born in 1954 and she was so anxious to be born that I almost did not make it to the hospital. She was so effervescent that she couldn't sit still to eat her dinner. She would be on a chair, off a chair, up and down and around the chair. I'd say, "Just sit on your chair." She'd say, "I can't, Mom. I just can't." She would walk to school down to the bus with Louise who just prodded along, and Connie would dance around her and the other kids at least six times before they got to the bus. She did well with school and did well with friends. When she was in third grade and I went to parent teacher conference the teacher said, "That child is the most effervescent child I have ever had in school." I said, "Yes I know she is. I'll talk to her and see what we can do." Mrs. Brown said, "Don't you dare. Can't you imagine how wonderful life would be to be that happy? She does her work and she doesn't bother any of the other kids." She's still that way. She attended to Weber State University, for only one a year. She took all of the business classes and she's since been the head secretary in the Cook Elementary School where all her children went to school. So that worked out fine. She married Stanley W. Sims and they have four children. 27 Douglas was our fifth child, and he was as bad as Connie was and couldn't sit still very long. He loved to be alone and he loved to be home. He could not sit still in school. I told the teacher, "I'll talk to him and see what I can do." She said, "Don't do it. I can teach him on his feet as well as I can teach him on his seat. He never bothers anyone. He just walks around the room and comes back and sits in his chair." I thought, "Oh, what a marvelous teacher." President Thompson used to call him the renegade because he's the only one that didn't go to Weber State. He went to BYU because he had a full ride scholarship in football. He received his Bachelor's and Master's from BYU and then went to Hanuman Medical University in Philadelphia for a Master's of Physical Therapy. He now works in physical therapy at Logan Regional Hospital. He married Maren Smith. Then there's Curtis. He was the best baby and little boy we ever had. We'd take him to the grocery store and he'd get in front of the cereal shelves and just look at things. He'd put his hands behind his back and never touched a thing. We'd do all our shopping and go back and he would still be looking at the cereal. I remember getting in the car one day to go home and said to Bill, "Oh, I think we left Curtis in the store." He did well in school. He's principal now at the Kaysville Junior High School. Most of our children went into education. ROH: Did they all go to the same school growing up? BS: They all went to Ogden High School. Christine, Richard and Curtis got their master's degrees from Utah State. Louise did hers online. She got her Master's 28 through Phoenix and her Doctorate through North Central in Phoenix. She said, "I'll graduate in May, 2014 and I expect you to go to Phoenix. I'm going to walk. I put enough into this that I'm going to walk, so I guess I have to go to Phoenix with her." They've all been good kids and have good jobs. ROH: What were some of the family traditions you had with the kids? BS: Well, Bill was traveling so much, so we took one big vacation a year with all the children. But I went alone with Bill a lot of times when he went on TDY. The grandmothers were always thrilled to take all those children for a time like that. Sometimes they'd divide the week. My mother and dad lived in Salt Lake and Bill's mother and dad lived on the other side of the Weber State campus on Mt. Ogden drive. ROH: Where did you travel to when you took vacations? BS: We went where he had to go work. We would go to Las Vegas and Disneyland every year since it opened, when our children were at home. He'd often have to go down to California and we would rent a house on the beach or close to it and take all the children. You would think we were nomads because we had the play pen, the high chair, and everything on top of the car and all the kids and suitcases inside the car. He had to go to several places in California and when he became branch chief of the material management department he had to visit every air base, even the ones overseas. For three years he was gone 70 percent of each year before he got his technicians trained to do it. He said to me at that time, "Bernice, you've 29 stayed home and raised our children, when I retire I'm going to take you to Europe and to every country I went to." And he did, except for Trippoli. Cadaffe had already taken that country and that air base was closed. ROH: What was that like? BS: It was wonderful. On one trip we visited ten countries—Italy, Germany, Austria, France, Netherlands, and so many around there. We took Don and Elizabeth Stewart with us and my sister and her husband. It was a wonderful trip. We also went to England a couple of times and went to Israel, Egypt, and many other places. ROH: On the same trip or a different? BS: No, it was at different times. Elizabeth wanted to go do some genealogy in England and Scotland, so we went there one time. When I think about all the trips, they were wonderful experiences. We later bought a condo in Indian Wells, California down in the Palm Springs area and we built a cabin up at Baer Lake. We also traveled a lot with the children. Yellowstone was one of the favorite places as a family. ROH: Tell me a little bit about Elizabeth Stewart because you were friends with her and her name is on the library. I like to ask people to tell me a little bit about her. BS: She lived just two doors up the street from us on College Drive. Bill was Bishop then and we got to know her well through the ward. We traveled a lot with them in their big bus. She became one of my best friends. We confided in each other. 30 One thing I remember so well is when she got irritated with Don somehow. All of a sudden the doorbell rang and here's Elizabeth. She got in her car and drove down to my house, past only one house, into my driveway and came in just fuming. I can't even remember what it was, but she was so irritated with him, so we sat and talked. Then all of a sudden she said, "I think I can go home now Bernice." So she got in her car and drove past the one house again and up into her house. She and I did so many things together and I remember once she was over and I was complaining about my children not doing what they were supposed to be doing. She took me by the shoulders and looked me right in the eye and said, "Bernice, I would give everything I own to have your children." We were good for each other because we could say things and the other would never get angry or upset; we'd just take it with a grain of salt. She was one of the most generous people I have ever met. She loved children. Our children called her Grandma Elizabeth. She was also known as the cookie Grandma. She tried to teach me piano lessons, but I didn't do too well. My dad was a violinist and he was in the first Utah Symphony Orchestra. One day I said, "Dad, I want to learn to play." (Richard did and he played in the youth city orchestra, but when he got to high school and played football he would not carry that violin to school). I did my best, but I don't hear music very well. One day after we finished the lesson my dad said, "You know, Bernice, I think you 31 ought to choose another instrument to play." It was the same with piano, I could not do it well. ROH: Just not your instrument. The piano wasn't either? BS: No. You can see why I didn't do much outside of the home with all the children home and no husband most of the time. When all of the children graduated from high school and were working and such, Curtis was the only one that was still home and Grandpa Stromberg was living with us as well. I also had my mother with us for 8 years and him for 20 years. Then Curtis had a friend that went on mission and his mother had cancer. He knew she wouldn't live until he got home from his mission. When he did get home his mother had passed away and his dad had remarried and moved into a trailer home. The new wife had a teenage daughter and his dad just looked at him and said, "I'm sorry Greg, you're going to have to find another place to live because I don't have room for you anymore." Greg tried living with his sister, but she and her husband were newly married and it just didn't work. He was going to Weber State and he asked Curtis, "Do you think your mom and dad would let me live with them while I go to school." Curtis said, "I'm sure they would." So we took in Greg. Then, we took in Debbie who wasn't a member of our church but she wanted to join so badly. She and her mother lived here in Ogden in the East Ridge apartments in a one bedroom unit with her live-in boyfriend. Debbie was sleeping on the couch. She came to live with us and eventually joined the church. 32 She lived with us for a long time. I still call her my bonus child. We had both of them for a while. When Greg finished school and went back down to Centerville. We had a swimming pool in our back yard and Curtis and Annette wanted their little girl to learn to swim. They brought Kari Sue up to teach her to swim in our swimming pool. Kari Sue was not a happy girl and she finally said, "Can I come live with you?" I said, "As long as your parents give you permission." That was always the one criterion with all the kids that lived with us. Her parents came up and visited with us and they said they thought it would be a good thing. She later went to Seattle for a better job. Then there was Michael, who had dated Debbie and wanted to come and live with us. By this time Debbie had dated and had been engaged to another young man. One week before the wedding was to be he said, "I don't want to get married." We had to give all the things back and I had made her wedding dress and everything. She was lost and I said, "Would you like to go on a mission?" She said, "Yes." So we sent her on a mission down to Costa Rica. She was such a spoiled child because she was an only child. I said, "You know, you're never going to make it down there with all the bugs and the forest and all of that. I'm just not sure you're going to make it." She told me later, "Bernice, every time I felt like coming home, I thought, no way I am not going to give you the chance to say I told you so." She stayed her full time. She spent some time in the hospital because she caught some of the bad bugs. 33 After Bill's mother died, Grandpa Stromberg came to live with us. He was pretty good for quite a few years, but then I had to watch him every minute because he'd wander. Later, my Ddd passed away and my mother was living alone, but I was afraid of her falling so we took her in as well. Counting the seven years that I took care of Bill, it had been 35 years that I was taking care of elderly people or teenagers in my home. I loved every minute of it. I really did. Bill's dad was the sweetest man I've ever met. I always called him my spiritual giant. ROH: What was his name? BS: Verner Lorenzo Stromberg. His parents came over from Sweden with one sister and two brothers. One baby died and they buried him at sea. Verner was born here. One day, his dad didn't come in from the fields, he was 35 years of age and they found him dead out in the field. His mother and grandmother were living here too and they didn't even speak English. It was kind of a hard time for them. My ancestors came from Denmark. I'm a pure Dane. Bill and I really had a wonderful life. We were always together. Everything we did, we did together or with the family. Did you want me to talk about Weber State? ROH: Yes, I was going to ask you how you became so generous with your time with Weber State. BS: It was a pleasure. I love the people there and the people that work there. John Johnson, the athletic director, I just felt like he was my own. He wasn't married when he was here and he'd come over to our home and sit in the big chair in 34 front of the fire place and say, "I absolutely love to just come over here and sit and talk with you and Bill." Bill was involved first, other than our involvement with the children going to Weber State. I did take one class there in home decorating. When Elizabeth and Don Stewart became sick and needed to have some more on their board, they asked Dean Hurst, Jack Lampros and Bill if they would serve on the board. ROH: How did Bill meet Elizabeth? BS: He was her Bishop at that time and she lived two doors up the street from us. ROH: Okay, so that's how they met originally? BS: Yes. Well, we knew them before that because we lived so close to them. She was the most generous person I've ever met in my whole life. A lot of people tried to take advantage of her. She'd get 15 to 20 letters in the mail asking for money. ROH: From random people in town? BS: Yes. They'd say, "I'm a friend of so-and-so who's the friend of…" and on and on. She said, "Well, I can't give it to you. We are a 501c3 charity organization and we cannot give to just an individual. It has to be charitable organization." That would cut most of them off. ROH: You're not the first person to say that to me. The first time I heard it I was surprised. Now, I'm surprised to continue to hear it. 35 BS: They knew she had money and wanted some of it. I had Don and Elizabeth over for Sunday dinner for 30 years, except holidays when they would go to Carol and Dean Hurst's. My mother was living with us at this time and would always make pies for dinner. She was the best pie maker in the world. When Don came to my mom's funeral he said, "Bernice, who's going to make our pies now?" I said, "Probably me." ROH: Do you? BS: Oh yes, I've made pies for a long time. ROH: So she taught you how to make pastry and pies? BS: Yes, Danish pastries and Danish foods, which I love. A Danish soup called hot soup. It's made with raisins, prunes, sliced lemon, cinnamon sticks, and tapioca. It's all boiled together and all those flavors blend. Oh, I did love that soup and so did Bill's dad because it was also a soup they had in Sweden. I finally found a recipe for it. My niece took all of mother's recipes when she passed away and I didn't get some of them that I wanted. My children and Bill hated the soup. It was so good though, I couldn't imagine them not liking it. Another quick thing about Elizabeth, she was known as the cookie grandma of the neighborhood. She always made cookies and the kids would go to her house or mine after school. I would always have hot bread and peanut butter and honey. One day, Douglas came home when he was about five and said, "You know what, Mom, I'm going to marry Elizabeth." I said, "Hun, she is already married to Don." He said, "I don't care. I'm going to marry Elizabeth." He 36 just kept telling her that and we just laughed about it. When he got engaged to be married, he came home from the "Y" and said, "I've got to go talk to Elizabeth." I said, "Okay, what do you have to talk to her about?" He said, "I'll tell you when I come home." He went up there with his bride-to-be, and asked her permission to marry Maren. She gave him and Maren her permission and blessing. ROH: That's so sweet. BS: It was just a sweet, sweet thing. ROH: That's adorable. How did you start to get involved with Weber State? BS: I always went with Bill. I was always with him because they invited us to everything and that's how I got to know Presidents Ann Milner, Paul Thompson, Steve Nadauld, President Bishop and Bill Miller. So you can see how far back we go with people from the university. I just tagged along with Bill. ROH: I've talked with the Miller Sisters. BS: Their mother, Mary, and I were so close and every time I'd see her she'd say, "Bernice, remember you're talking at my funeral. I've told the girls that you're going to be the speaker at my funeral." I just fluffed it off and she lived a lot of years after that. When she passed away Donna called me and said, "Bernice, I've got a question to ask you. "Would you mind if we girls talk at mother's funeral? We think that would be nice, but I know mom always said you were to be the speaker. I wanted to clear it with you before we did anything about it." I said, "Oh you sweet girl. I always expected you to." That family was a very 37 special family. It wasn't until Bill passed away that I was asked to be on the Stewart Foundation board. That's when I got a little more involved myself. I knew everybody so I felt like I was part of them already. ROH: Like part of the family. BS: Right. It's a great experience. That's why when they called me recently on the MS thing she said, "We'd like to know what you've done in the community." I said, "Shelly, I haven't really done a whole lot in the community." Bill and I liked the weight training building and they needed to make it bigger and get all new equipment and so Bill and I did that. I always think about what Jack said one day when they were asking him about donating money to the college. He said, "You know, it's an awesome experience to be an entrepreneur. Especially when you do it with someone else's money," meaning the foundation's money. I really laughed at him. ROH: He is funny too. BS: He is. Both he and his wife are. That's my connection with them, the foundation, and we became friends and traveled together. I can't say that I have done much other than just being a part of all of it with Bill. ROH: Well, that's very important because without your support we wouldn't be able to do all the wonderful things that we're able to do and it means a lot to the university. 38 BS: That's about all I did. I had been asked during all those years of raising children, if I would be the Weber County chair of one of the county foundations. They asked me many times if it would be possible to come and work in the social services to work with the pregnant girls, to be their friend, take them to Dr. appointments and let them know that someone cares and loves them. I wanted to help, but I always had someone at home that needed my care. I've always felt bad that I couldn't do more. I started working with the young women in our church when I was 18 and did that for 44 years. ROH: Are you still doing that now? BS: No. I had to give that up. It got to where I could not do the camping and hiking Ben Lomond and all those things, but I did teach for a while. They said, "Just come back and teach the girls and we'll get you help for the activities. You can just do the lessons." ROH: What keeps you busy now? BS: Great grandchildren. ROH: Are you still serving on the board? BS: Yes. I still am. I'm trying to think of what I do. ROH: Trying to keep up with all the family? BS: Well, that's the thing, I always have somebody here. Earlier I had an Avon lady that came to my house and she said, "I can't wait to come here. It's just like a three-ring circus. I never know how many are coming in and out." Ours was a fun 39 home. Bill and I both thoroughly loved teenagers. When the kids got to be teenagers and people, we just had a ball. Also, Ned and Maggie Favero had the White House wedding reception—do you remember that? ROH: I've read about it. BS: She asked me if I would consider doing catering for them. This was a perfect opportunity for my girls and me. We spent many, many hours together baking, making candy and tarts, talking, laughing, and bonding our love and lives together. It gave the girls work experience and an income. I loved to cook. I hate it now, but I loved it then and in the stake anybody that had a problem with cooking would call me. In fact, one ward has already called to see if I would make chocolates again. I said, "No, but Christine and Connie can do it." It really was a circus. We loved kids. When people start complaining about their teenagers I think, "Why? They're all so wonderful." I still have them come and visit, some of those that I taught back in 1945 and 1946. For years they would invite me out to lunch once in a while. Teenagers are pretty smart, they know genuine love and they know a put-on. Bill felt that way too, he absolutely loved young people and they knew it. I smiled when one of the hospice people came in and she said, "The first time I walked in your kitchen, I knew that this was a happy home." I have a sign up on the wall that says, "It's a Wonderful Life." Another lady in our ward brought me one that says, "Life is good." It was good. It really was. I can't say we always agreed. We could build houses and get 40 along fine, but put us in the yard and there was no way could we work together. I always said to him, "If you want to get a housekeeper or a gardener, be sure it's a housekeeper because I want to stay the gardener." He loved to build and I loved to work in the yard. My life was full raising our children and caring for parents, filling our home with teenagers when ours began to leave. When we moved here to Chimney Hills, it was the first time we lived alone, Bill and I. I really miss the full house. We have been truly blessed with a great posterity, 6 children, 26 grandchildren and 55 great grandchildren. When you add in all the spouses, that is over 100 in our family. Life's been good, and I wish I could share more. I've helped a lot of people, but it's just been me doing the things I love to do which is helping people. I still like to serve people. ROH: I thank you very much for taking the time to share your story with me. BS: Thank you, I am really glad to get better acquainted with you.

Matthew Godfrey ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 36p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Matthew Godfrey Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 21 October 2011 1 November 2011 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Matthew Godfrey Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 21 October 2011 1 November 2011 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Godfrey, Matthew, an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 21 October and 1 November 2011, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Matthew Godfrey ca. 1999 1 Abstract: Matthew Godfrey (June 30, 1970) was born in Ogden, UT. He spent his childhood years in North Ogden and attended Weber High School. Matthew attended Weber State University, where he got a master's degree in accounting and was an All-American on the track team. Matthew sat down with Rebecca Ory Hernandez in the Mayor's Office before the end of his third term. He shares stories of his life growing up and living in North Ogden, as well as his education and serving as Ogden's Mayor. He reflects on his time running for Mayor and discusses some of the major economic and development projects he worked on in his several terms after elected to beautify Ogden City. His father was William V. Godfrey, mayor of Harrisville. Matthew is currently working as a consultant and continues to serve on various community boards. He is married to Monica. ROH: Today is November 21, 2011. Seated in Mayor Matthew Godfrey's office are Rebecca Ory-Hernandez and Mayor Godfrey. We're here to talk about your history. Let's start with where and when you were born. MG: I was born here in Ogden at the old McKay Dee hospital that was across from Weber State. That was June 30, 1970. ROH: Did you have any brothers or sisters? MG: Growing up, there were five of us. I have an older sister, Malinda, then Jason and then me. After me were Deborah and Laura. I had another sister who died when she was eleven days old; her name was Rebecca. ROH: How much older are Jason and Malinda? 2 MG: The first four are all two years apart. Malinda was born in 1966, Jason in 1968, I was in 1970, and Deborah in 1972. Rebecca was born in 1974, and then she passed away. I think Laura was born in 1976. ROH: Did you grow up in Ogden? MG: I grew up in Harrisville. We lived right behind where the Wal-Mart is now. We grew up in the same house my mom grew up in. I never distinguished it much from Ogden. ROH: What are the names of your parents? MG: William Verl Godfrey and Carol Jeanne Godfrey. My mom went by Jeanne and my dad went by Bill. ROH: Tell me a little about your childhood growing up in Harrisville. MG: It was a wonderful place to grow up and I had a great childhood. We had land around our homes so we would go and play and ride bikes with friends. We did a lot of fun things together as boys—myself, my brother, and my cousin, after he moved in behind our house. It was a great time growing up. We got along really well. I enjoyed spending time with my family. It was kind of a family compound. Next door to us were my mom's parents; behind us were our cousins, the Fields, which was my mom's sister; behind them, later on, the Montgomery's built, and they were the family of another of my mom's sisters. ROH: Where did you go to school? MG: I went to Pioneer Elementary School, Walhquist Jr. High School and Weber High. Education was never stressed by my parents. Both of them went to a semester or two of college but didn't graduate. They never pushed it or said it was 3 important that we be good at math or reading or other topics. We got good grades and we all liked school, but I don't recall my mom saying I needed to go to college. I enjoyed school both academically and socially. I ran for some offices and had good experiences. ROH: What offices did you run for? MG: Eighth-grade president and then student body president at Walhquist Jr. High School. ROH: What other extra-curricular activities were you involved in? MG: I ran track. I really wanted to play basketball because basketball was a cool sport and track was not. I tried out for the basketball team. I was the last kid cut. I still remember that Lynn Wood and I had a one-on-one game at the end of practice to decide who was going to get on the team. He beat me by one basket. In hindsight, it was a good thing because if I'd made the team I would have pursued basketball and that's certainly not where my skills were. I played football my eighth and ninth grade years, which is tough when you're only a hundred pounds. I got my bell rung plenty, but I had a good time. My science teacher got a ferret and there were two of us that would go and take care of it. Those are the only extra-curricular things I did. ROH: What about high school? MG: I ran track and cross country. I was on seminary council my junior year and I was seminary president my senior year. It was against the rules to be a student body officer and be on the seminary council, so when I was asked to be on the 4 seminary council, I couldn't run for office. I think it was a good thing. I did debate as well. High school was a fun time. ROH: What was a typical day like for you in high school? MG: We woke up around 6:30 and we always had breakfast as a family. We'd pray and read scriptures as a family, then rush off to catch the bus to school. In high school, my parents had a car for all the kids. They didn't want us to have our own car. It was an ugly green GMC pickup truck that we were embarrassed to drive. We thought it was such an ugly truck. My junior year, much to my surprise, my dad bought a Fiat X-19. My dad bought it from my uncle who was glad to get rid of it. My junior and senior year I was able to drive this cool little sports car to school—when it worked, which it didn't much of the time. School would start around 7:15 and end around 3:00. Then, I would go run track or cross country until 5 or 5:30. I was always famished when I got home, and we always had dinner as a family around 6 or 6:30. ROH: What did your parents do for a living? MG: My mom stayed at home with us. My dad was an insurance agent. He had a tiny little yellow shack of an office until I was in my senior year in high school, when he went to work for Heiner's Insurance. My dad was the mayor of Harrisville and a councilman before that. I think he ran for mayor the first time while I was in high school and he lost by one vote. He ran again and won the second time around, which was just after I was married. He had a heart attack and was in the hospital the night he won the election. He came out of open heart surgery and found out that he'd won the election. 5 ROH: Was he influential in your decision to run for mayor? MG: He told me not to run. Almost twelve and a half years ago I went to talk to him out in the garage and said, "Dad, I'm thinking about running for mayor." He said, "Why would you do that?" I gave him my reasons. He said, "I would advise you not to do it. Maybe I'm being over-protective." He shared with me some experiences he had had of people being mean-spirited. He said, "Your friends and the people you go to church with are going to yell at you and say terrible things about you and I would rather you not have those kinds of experiences." He said that if I did decide to run, he would be supportive. I didn't have a political bug in me—we had to deliver fliers when he ran for office and I did not enjoy that at all. I didn't have much interest in politics, even though I'd run for two offices in school—that was more for fun. After I decided to run for mayor, my dad was a great support. ROH: Back up a little bit and let's talk about what happened after high school. MG: I got a track scholarship to Weber State. ROH: What was your major? MG: My undergraduate was finance and then I went on to get a master's degree in accounting at Weber, which was never the plan. The plan was to go away for a Master's degree in International Business. The NCAA kind of messed that up for me. At that time, you couldn't transfer schools without losing a year of eligibility. When I finished my undergraduate, I wanted to get a Master's but I couldn't transfer. Weber had two graduate degrees, the Masters of Business and the Masters of Accounting. I figured it out with the counselor and I could get four 6 bachelor's degrees or I could get a Master's degree, otherwise I would lose a year of track eligibility. So, I ended up getting a Master's in accounting even though I had no interest in accounting. I got them together and graduated with both degrees in 1995. I started in '88 and had a two-year mission within that time. ROH: Where did you go on your mission? MG: I went to Caracas, Venezuela. It provided a lot of great experiences and learning opportunities. A mission is an amazing amalgamation of experiences. It is extraordinarily difficult physically even though I ran track all through school. In Venezuela, we would walk several miles and then knock on doors all day in the sun. It was hot and humid and you're wet all day long. Continual rejection is something you have to learn to live with. Then you have to learn to live with another person. You don't choose your companion; they're assigned by the mission president. I think I had seventeen companions in twenty-four months. That's unusual. That was good but also hard. I had quite a few companions who were having problems and the president sent them to me—sometimes he told me in advance, but usually he didn't. After the difficult companion transferred the president would say, "Thanks, that's the longest he's ever stayed with anybody." It was a valuable experience to learn to live with somebody you don't know and who is often from another country. Usually you're living with someone with whom you have nothing in common except religion. I really like to get out, work hard and do things. I had companions who wanted to do what was easy, fun and enjoyable. Learning how to resolve those kinds of issues was a good experience and I think great preparation as well. It 7 was neat to see people change their lives as they listened to the Gospel and decided they were going to get baptized. I just got a call last month from a lady I baptized who was here in Utah. It was neat to talk with her and hear what was going on in her life and what she was doing. Those relationships were meaningful and they continue to be very rewarding experiences. I wish I would have kept better track of the people I knew there. It seemed unmanageable at the time, but today with Facebook and email it would be a piece of cake. The postal service is terrible in Venezuela, so I knew most of my letters wouldn't make it through anyway. ROH: What did you think about the contrast in geography? MG: It was very tropical and there was a desert in one area where I served. It's so beautiful and so ugly at the same time. It was fascinating to see how poorly the country was run; they had so much by way of natural resources and amenities of the earth, but they did a poor job of managing it. It was sad to see the poverty. I had heard about poverty, but when you see the depth of the poverty and the pervasiveness of it, you feel overwhelmed by it. It's not like you can help them out of it alone. That was hard. All I could do was share a message that could help their lives get better and hope that over time they could improve their situation. It was a beautiful landscape and I enjoyed the climate knowing I wouldn't choose to live in that kind of humidity. It was fun knowing I was going to be there for two years and then come back to this area. ROH: Did you run on your days off? 8 MG: A handful of times, but my philosophy was that if I put all my effort into serving well on my mission then things would work out with track. ROH: Did you get back into track and school when you got back? Or was it very different when you came back? MG: I got right back to both school and track. I hadn't run for two years, so it took time to get back in shape. I had more injuries after my mission, which could have been from the time off, but I was very poor and didn't change my shoes as often as I should have, so a lot of it I caused myself, I'm sure. I'm fairly bullet-proof with injuries, but I had a few years where I was injured quite a bit. Weber didn't put much money into their track program, even though it was probably the best athletic program they had. We won more championships and had more national recognition, I'm certain, than any other team on campus. It's not exciting when the cross country team places fourth or seventh in the nation. The coach was great and became a very good friend. I learned a lot from him about track and about life. The same with my high school coach—Dick Connelly. He passed away a few years ago. High school is such an impressionable time in your life and I thought I was a really good kid—seminary president, didn't go to parties and always did what I was supposed to be doing— but he pulled me aside several times and told me I needed to be doing better. It was shocking to me because I thought I was too far on the good side and needed to let my hair down a little. I was really grateful to him. He coached me well in running, but also in life. He was a wonderful man. ROH: Once you graduated from Weber, what did you do? 9 MG: I was married in the summer of my junior year of college, which was in 1993. Monica and I were introduced by someone on the track team. I had a freshman who had a locker next to me and from the time he came in he wanted to set me up with somebody that he knew. To be honest, I didn't trust his judgment. He was really fun-loving and kind of goofy, and I didn't know who Monica was but I was certain that she would not be someone I would be interested in. He kept asking and asking, and finally said, "Just meet her." We set something up where we would just pass each other and meet. We did that and she was much better looking than I had expected. We went out on a date—an almost-blind date. It wasn't wonderful. It was a wedding reception for a friend of mine. It was one of the most spectacular storms I've ever seen during my life here—in that six hour period of our date, it snowed probably two feet. We had a heck of a time getting from Ogden up to the valley and we ended up helping cars on the side of the road. It took us two hours to get to my friend's house and it was eleven at night by the time we did. It was still snowing, so we talked about just spending the night at my friend's house. Monica called her parents to ask and they said, "No way, if we have to come get you, we will, but you're not spending the night with a blind date in who-knows-where." After I thought about it, I thought it was probably what I would have said too, as a parent. So we made the trek back. We were married six months later. ROH: That must have been a busy time for you—a Master's program and track and getting married. You had a lot of change going on all at once. What was that like? 10 MG: It was fun and hard, for the reasons that you've stated. I was taking a lot of credit hours. One semester I had either twenty-eight or thirty-one credit hours. It was really hard and I was really busy. I was also adjunct faculty and I taught between one and three classes a semester. I was the evening assistant manager at Godfather's Pizza too. I was doing all of that and newly married and trying to figure out how a marriage works. My parent's relationship and her parent's relationship could not have been more different. I knew that and she recognized that our parents interacted in very different ways. That was hard because I had only seen things one way and she had only seen things one way. We had to figure out those dynamics and the personality of our relationship in a time where there was already a lot going on. ROH: Was she a student? MG: Yes. She ended up getting a degree in communications, which we both regret. She wanted a degree in nursing but her dad talked her out of it. He didn't want her to be a nurse, but said that she should go to school to be a doctor. She wanted to stay at home and raise our children, but that knowledge base would have been very valuable for our family. In one way, it was good because communications was a faster degree and she was able to get her degree quickly. She got pregnant our senior year and we had our first child about six or eight weeks before she graduated. My father would come over to our little house and watch the baby while we were both in school. ROH: Where was your first house? 11 MG: It was 780 32nd Street. It was a tiny little house but we loved it. We were able to buy it because my wife had saved up some money. We drove past it because it was near where we were renting and we talked the owner into selling it to us on contract. We gave him the $2,000 that Monica had saved as a down payment. ROH: What was your first child's name? MG: Natasha was our first. She was born in '95. ROH: My wife stayed home with Natasha and I got a job at Lomega as a financial analyst. I made $28, 500, which was really upsetting. I felt like with the master's degree and good grades—I was second in my class—I had hoped for more. But it was a job and I took it. It was a good experience, but I didn't stay long. I was there for about six months when I got a call from Dutch Belnap who used to be the athletic director at Weber State. He said, "Hey, Matt, I have these guys that are looking for a chief financial officer, are you interested?" I said, "Heck yeah." I talked to them and worked with them for three months. It was a disaster. I won't be disparaging about what went on. It was not what I wanted to do or where I wanted to work. Luckily, I was able to go back to Lomega and they took me back in a position that was better than the one I had left. I ended up being a program manager and supervising the release of new products. Lomega started out with a ditto drive, a tape back-up drive. Later, I moved to the zip drive. It was very challenging and very fast paced. I was laid-off, which is a great story. I was in meetings until 6:30 or 7:00 p.m. one night and my card wouldn't work to get back into my office. Somebody 12 came by and let me in. I went to my computer and my login wasn't working. I called the IT guy and said, "Hey, what's going on? My computer and my card aren't working." Then, all of the sudden, I realized I had been laid-off. We knew there were going to be massive lay-offs, but there were only two of us doing program management for the zip drive in the entire company and we went to our boss and asked, "Should we be worried?" He said, "No, if you guys weren't here, there's no one to do your job. There's no way you could be let go." So we both thought we were safe and yet we both were laid off. That didn't last very long, but they didn't bring me back to the same position. It was about two weeks later that they brought us back and they had me doing something similar but it was in the division in San Diego. I flew out Monday morning and flew home Friday night. I had been called to be a bishop in my church about a year before. I worked that schedule for about six months when I decided I couldn't do it anymore. I had been applying for other jobs but my stake president worked for the city and suggested I apply for a job in neighborhood development with the city. I had been doing some real estate on the side. I applied and didn't hear anything for three months. Then I was called in for an interview and again didn't hear anything for quite a few more months. I left Lomega and worked at the city. I wasn't very excited about that. ROH: What year was that? MG: I think it was the end of 1998. I told the city I couldn't live on the salary they gave me and that I needed to continue to do real estate on the side. They said that would be okay. I basically helped with neighborhood development. I went to city 13 council meetings and presented new projects. I kept thinking that the way the city was being run didn't make any sense. We had huge problems. Downtown was a mess and was continuing to cave, yet it seemed like we were the only ones doing anything to rebuild the town but we were doing it up in these neighborhoods. I said, "Why aren't we doing some mixed-used development downtown?" They laughed at me and said, "That's what we should be doing but the economic development guys aren't going to go for anything like that." I made other suggestions and kept saying, "Why doesn't the city do this?" or "Why doesn't the city do that?" I was brand new. I only worked for the city for six months total. One day, I got a call from the CAO, which is the guy right under the mayor. He said, "I understand you have a lot of ideas about what should happen in the city." He asked me to meet with him. I went to his office and started sharing the ideas. He was mostly listening and from time to time would write things down. Then, I got to crime and I said, "We need to focus on crime. Factual or not, there's a perceived crime issue. People think Ogden is riddled with crime and I think there needs to be a real emphasis on reducing crime." He put down his pen and said, "There is nothing that can be done about crime. Crime is driven by demographics and the economy and there's nothing you can do to change it." I said, "Well, I think we can change it and I think there are cities across the country that have, though it will take a lot of work." He put his pen down and folded his arms and I thought, "Well, this is over." I didn't say that, but I thanked him for his time and left soon thereafter. This was in the spring—in March. 14 I went home that night and thought, "Nothing's going to change." Until there is a vision and somebody who has a desire to make something happen, we're in a vortex and this town isn't going to escape. The guys running the city— the CAO—didn't believe things could change. I was upset by it and asked myself if I really wanted to stay here. I felt like I was on the Titanic. A week later the mayor announced he wasn't going to run for re-election. ROH: Who was the mayor? MG: Mayor Mecham. He was having heart failure. Nobody knew it at the time, but he was getting a heart transplant. He was a nice man, but he had several people in key positions that weren't making anything happen. I said, "Good, hopefully there will be somebody who jumps in the race who will do something." Then Garth Day announced he was going to run. He was just indicted up in Morgan County and sent to prison for fraud. He was on the city council and I had watched him flip-flop on issues until it drove me crazy. One day, I got up and spoke out about an issue because he was pushing an ordinance that had to do with the city yard-care regulations. They were saying, "We have these ordinances that require people to take care of their yard, but people don't." Garth Day was trying to get something passed where you'd put a big billboard, placard-type thing up in the person's yard that said, "This person is not complying with Ogden City regulations." He said, "If we do that, maybe we can shame them into compliance." While I was attending the meeting as a staff member, I figured that since I was also an Ogden resident I could address them as a constituent. I said, "What I think we should do is not embarrass people into 15 doing it, let's just enforce the law. I am certain that if you started enforcing the ordinances, you will change behavior. We just need to give citations and let their pocketbook change their behavior. If you put the signs up, they're just going to tear them down." I got in trouble the next day from my boss who said, "You should not be speaking out at these council meetings." ROH: Who was your boss? MG: Aaron Wolf-Burtling. He said, "I understand, but let wisdom dictate. We need the council to approve our plans." I said, "I know, but it was a dumb idea." He said, "I know, but you still need to be careful." Anyway, I had seen Garth and I thought, "He cannot be the next mayor. He'll destroy this town!" I like Garth; he and I developed a good relationship, but he was not the one to run the city. I kept waiting to hear who else was going to run. I heard there was another guy that everyone acknowledged was kind of a crazy guy. So, it was kind of depressing. There were some great people at the city and I'd rubbed shoulders with a lot of people who were really capable. There were some fantastic people at the city who wanted to do things but had been here for years and maybe just accepted that this was the way it was. I went home one day and said, "Monica, what would you think if I ran for mayor?" Her father was a state senator at the time and had been chair of the Weber County Democratic Party. He was very well known as a physician in town and very well-liked by everybody. Between my father and my father-in-law, you'd think that politics was kind of ingrained in me, but I had never had a desire to run for political office. My wife 16 and I hardly ever talk about politics. She was shocked. She said, "Why would you do that?" I said, "Who's going to run for Ogden City mayor if I don't? The town's in bad shape and it pays $70,000 a year. You're not going to get the capable executive who wants to come because he thinks this would be fun. No one is going to leave their career to be the Ogden City mayor." ROH: Give me some examples of some of the businesses that were leaving at that time. MG: Weber State. They had a downtown campus that they abandoned during that time period. When there was an Ogden City Mall downtown, Weber State had an office there. Weber abandoned that, for safety reasons. Nordstrom left. ATK Thiokol was here and they took off in the late '90s. There were little shops and little stores all around that shut their doors. ROH: Downtown Ogden was the premier place to shop. MG: That was before there were national chains, to be fair, but those slowly closed. It was sad. Generational businesses were going. ATK was a significant and high-paying employer who uprooted. We had salvage yards in what is now our central business district. That was my point to my wife: "There's no one who's going to take this on." We had our own business, a real estate holding and management company, so we decided that we were in a position where we could run for mayor. We talked about it and I talked to some people around town. I talked to my father-in-law and asked what he thought. He liked it. He said Ogden needed somebody with new ideas and new passion. He gave me a list of people to go talk to about it. After about a week of talking to a couple people every day—I still 17 worked at the city—I got called into the city attorney's office. One of the attorneys sat me down across the desk and said, "I understand you're thinking about running for mayor." I said, "How did you hear that?" He said, "Word has gotten back to the mayor that you're talking to people around town. Have you decided?" I said, "No, I haven't, I'm just kind of going through the process of trying to figure it out." He said, "You can't do that and be an employee here. If you're going to work for the city, you have to work for the city and not campaign to try to beat your boss." I said, "I'm pretty sure my constitutional rights give me the right to run for office if I want." He was the nicest guy and I said, "You don't really want to be having this conversation with me, do you?" He said, "No, I don't." I said, "You were sent to do this." He nodded. I said, "Well, I'll tell you what, you can go and tell them I've made up my mind and I'm going to run for mayor. You don't have to fire me, I'll quit." I went home and told Monica. ROH: I don't understand how that could be legal. MG: It wasn't legal and he knew it wasn't. He was sent to talk to me and later I found out why. It was because the mayor had somebody who was running and he didn't want me running against him. I'm sure that the CAO didn't want me running either because it was clear that his ideas and my ideas weren't aligning. I was twenty-eight at the time. I went around and talked to everyone about it. Inevitably, as I went around to people like, John E. Lindquist, and they'd say, "Why don't you run for city council first?" I'd say, "I don't have any interest in a political career and spending time to work up to become mayor because Ogden has problems now. If you and others think that my ideas are good ones and that I 18 can help turn the tide for the city, then great, I'm willing to do it. If not, I'm not going to try for the council." John A. Lindquist said, "How can I help you?" I said, "I need money." He pulled out his checkbook and wrote me a check. I felt like I was on cloud nine because I had the support of John A. Lindquist, who was the patriarch of the city and he'd just endorsed me. That was a real turning point for me. From there it was a lot of campaigning. ROH: Today is December 1, 2011 and we are in the office of Mayor Matthew Godfrey. Present is Matthew Godfrey and Rebecca Ory-Hernandez from Weber State University. We'll pick up today from where you started campaigning for mayor. MG: People started calling me and I had a few surprise phone calls from businessmen who said, "I want you to meet with somebody. He's run political campaigns across the country and he was a political advisor to Ronald Reagan." I met with the gentleman and he was very helpful. His name was Chuck Bailey; he's passed away since. That began the journey of knocking doors and meeting people and trying to win an election where you're virtually unknown in a community. It was probably the end of May when I made the decision and then in June I had my campaign declared. There were a lot of us who ran. My strategy and belief was that I needed to knock on every door in the city. I wasn't sophisticated enough to know that you don't knock on every door—you only knock the doors of those who actually vote. I was fortunate enough to win in the primary in October and then the office in November. ROH: What was a day in the campaign like for you? 19 MG: I had my own real estate holding and management company which I'd been building for several years and was doing full-time. I had three days a week that I would go and run that business. In the evenings, I would knock doors from five until 8:30 or 9:00. During the day, when I wasn't knocking doors or working, I'd organize volunteers and put together materials. There's a whole logistical side of it, with vendors and signs, and I had to organize volunteers for much of that. I knocked on doors Tuesday night through Friday night and then all day on Saturday. I learned that you can't go out at 9:30 a.m. or even 10:00 a.m. on Saturday, which was strange for me but for other people that was still sleeping time. ROH: How many volunteers did you have? MG: It was mainly family and friends. One of the ones who helped me a lot was Brandon Stevenson, who is now a city council member. We'd gone to high school together and I knew who he was but we weren't friends. I was better friends with his little brother. I got a call from Brandon saying he wanted to help and he was extremely helpful. He helped knock on doors and campaigned in his neighborhood. A lot of my family came out and knocked on doors and handed out fliers and put up signs. In the last campaign I had a large group that came to help, but usually it's a small group willing to put in the time to help you out. ROH: How much money were you expected to raise for your first campaign and what was your platform? MG: The most that had ever been raised previously was $14,000 by Mayor Mecham. I figured that if I raised more money than that, then I'd be in good shape. I ended 20 up raising about $28,000, and I was still outspent two-to-one. I think Bob Hunter spent $64,000 or something like that. I had probably as many signs out as Bob did, but I remember all of his four-by-eight signs had pictures of himself placed on top the week before the election. It was like Bob was everywhere. It was discouraging and we thought, "There's no way. He's spent way more money and put out more fliers and more signs. He's inundated the town with Bob Hunter." The platform that I ran on was three very specific things: lowering taxes, economic revitalization, and reducing crime. There were also components of that like getting into neighborhoods and making a difference, but I thought that those three main ideas were what people wanted. I had plans for each and everything mapped out. I still have the brochures—I kept them so I would remember what I told people I would do. We would have meetings with my directors where we would go through and check some of them off. Some of them came off the list because I came into the office and realized it was a bad idea. I should say; I realized it wasn't the right place to put resources. Things changed as I learned more, but we really focused on accomplishing what we told people we were going to do. You naively think that people will remember what you told them you were going to do and when you'd tell them you did it, they would applaud. To this day, when I tell people, "We lowered your property taxes three times." They say, "No, my taxes go up every year." I say, "No, your city property taxes were lowered three times." Nobody remembers and nobody believes it, but it was important to me and, I hope, to our team that we did what we told people we were going to do. 21 ROH: What was your reaction to winning your first campaign? MG: I was surprised. My wife and I worked really hard up until the last day and did everything we knew we could do. Bob Hunter came over to my house the morning of the election. He gave us flowers and said it had been great to run against us. He was a real gentleman. He said, "If you win, I'll be your biggest supporter." I thanked him. After he left, I said to my wife, "Not only has he outspent and he's everywhere, he's now out-classed us!" We went out to breakfast after that and we've actually made it a tradition that every four years on the Tuesday of elections, we go out to breakfast as a family. As you wait, it's a very anxious day. It was a fun evening that night at my house. Bob had rented the Radisson Hotel and had a fancy shindig there across from the city offices. It wasn't as advanced then as it is now—at that time you had to have somebody there at the recorder's office in order to relay information. I had someone down at the office getting the tallies and we were calling him and getting updates. As the results came in precinct by precinct, I think we won every single precinct. There may have been one or two we didn't win, and we only barely won each precinct, but one after another we won almost all of them. I think it was down to the second or third to the last when I did the math and realized we had won, there was no way he could beat us. It was surreal. I don't think anyone in the room thought it was going to happen. That's the moment when you give your wife a hug and kiss and say, "Now what do we do?" We needed to go and shake Bob's hand and thank the community, so when the results were in, we went down to city hall. They were relaying the data 22 from the old council chambers and it couldn't have been a colder reception by everybody. We all felt so awkward when we went in. There were a few token congratulations, but mostly it was really gloomy and we felt like complete outsiders. Bob was gracious and we thanked him. He reiterated his promise to be our biggest supporter. He is a very close friend and ally. I have appreciated that and really respect him. We left soon after because it was so uncomfortable that night. I think most everyone there supported Bob and had expected Bob to win and they were worried about the change of the new guy coming into office. I had to sell my business because I wanted to start working for the city right away. I was coming in and meeting with people and trying to get to know what was going on. They were nice enough to give me an office. It was in a corner by the library and had a lot of old books in it. They put a desk in it for me. The mayor did not support me. He was going to remain neutral in the race, but after I won the primary he came out and supported Bob. He was not cordial to me. I had made no bones about my intent to replace two of his main people. I'm sure if a mayoral candidate were saying that about my people, I'd feel the same way. I started work in that little corner and I worked pretty much every day. I met with people and started to form a budget and a plan. I started figuring out who my team was going to be. I went up to Weber State and met with Mike Vaughn, Dick Richards, and Chuck Bailey, some guys from Iomega and other members of the community that I trusted as good business minds in order to figure out, "What do I do? How to I transition this kind of an organization? Do I come in and take it slow or do I come in and make changes right away?" We had 23 a lot of dialogue as a group and laid out a plan, which was to take things slow— to come in and learn the landscape, let people prove themselves, and make changes as they became necessary. We transitioned quickly between November and January when I was thrown into office. The mayor had one meeting where he met with me and it was fascinating because he didn't have a computer on his desk. When I came in, there was not a single file in his desk. I'd asked for the meeting to have him pass along nuggets of wisdom and projects and whatever else he felt like he should pass on to me. It was a very brief meeting. He gave me a handful of suggestions; there was an individual that he said, "Whatever you do, don't fire this person." He said, "Of all the conferences and conventions you should go to, this one is the most valuable." He said a couple more little things and that was it. It wasn't, "Here's what we're working on, here's our strategy, here's the lay of the land…" We really started from scratch. Luckily, the administration stayed. I was so new. I had been here about two months when Christie, who had been his admin and was mine, came in and said, "So, are you keeping me?" I said, "Of course, why would you think not?" She said, "We didn't know if you were keeping me or if we were leaving." I said, "I'm so sorry. It never even crossed my mind." I had no idea that they often change out administrative assistants. She was a phenomenal assistant. Those kinds of things were all new to me, but luckily Christie was there and helped out a lot. The CAO and the economic director both resigned the day I took office; I had said I would replace both of them. I felt that they were not doing a good job, but 24 my intent was to work with them and if they could step it up. We hired Stuart Reid to be the economic director, and brought Nate Pierce up from within the organization to be the CAO. You're inundated when you're new. Everyone wants to meet you and you have a million new best friends. You go through a process where your just trying to figure out what's going on and what's important while you're building your team. It takes time to figure out how to work together as a team. Mecham's style was very different than mine. There were a lot of changes. We put more resources into the police department and into economic development while we were cutting taxes. We had to make significant changes in the organization while we were making those things happen. We tried to ease into them gradually, but from the city's perspective, it was lightening speed and dramatic organizational changes almost overnight. ROH: How would you describe your style? MG: I am very team-oriented. I believe in having a clear vision of where we are headed and what we want to happen, then establishing clear goals and giving people responsibility to make those components happen. I think my role is to make sure there is that vision and then to push the organization, to make sure that they know that we're going to make these things happen. My role changed over the years, depending on who was there. For example, Stuart Reid was a very strong leader and liked to own everything that was in his box. He did not want anyone meddling in economic development, which was too bad because I loved economic development. He wanted complete control and so I just held him 25 accountable for the outcomes and he would deliver. He had his own way of going about it and he wanted to be left alone. On the other hand, our current economic director wants me to participate and comes to me for help. That's Richard McKonkie, a wonderful man who has been the deputy director of economic development in the city for many years. I'm fine adjusting my role depending on what is needed. Some departments do everything on their own and as long as they're producing their outcomes, that's all I care about. It's been fun to see the changes in the organization and how my work has changed. ROH: How many terms have you been mayor? MG: Three. I'll be finishing up twelve years as mayor. I've been here longer now than anybody except Lorrin Farr, who was the first mayor of Ogden. He didn't actually have elections. He was appointed and once a year at church he was sustained as mayor. He went to serve a mission and another mayor came in and Lorrin Farr came back after his mission and served a few more years. I think he served twenty-three years as mayor. He had quite a different environment. ROH: Who appointed him? The church? MG: Yes, basically. When they settled the territory, people were given assignments to go and settle different areas and fill different roles. ROH: How would you summarize your first term? MG: It was hard. The council relationship was really difficult. I was, obviously, brand new to politics and leading an organization of this size. City government was very different from the private sector. I knew it would be challenging, but in my first meeting with the chair of the city council, he told me that his relationship with 26 Mayor Mecham was terrible, that the council hated Mayor Mecham and Mayor Mecham hated the council until the last two years. He said, "The mayor learned he had to come to us and listen to us and once he figured that out, it was fine." I went back after this meeting and my staff said, "Don't you dare do what that arrogant bugger is telling you to do." I also knew that Mayor Mecham had serious health problems in those last two years and he wasn't working as much, so maybe that made him easier to get along with. I took my staff's advice and tried to be cordial and work with the council, but the chair would chew me out for not going to him about things. I said, "I have advisors and they are the people advising me on things. That is not your role." It was a difficult relationship for a few years. In hindsight, I wonder what would have happened if I'd gone to him and said, "Sure, I'd love to partner with you." If I'd made them feel included and a part of things, I wonder if it would have calmed the waters. I would love a chance to go back and try to change that dynamic. It was really hard to get projects through. It was an ambitious agenda. We wanted to recruit 2,000 jobs to the downtown, 2,000 people living in the downtown area, and the last one I think was 200,000 square feet of new retail, office, and entertainment in the downtown area. That was hard because there hadn't been new housing in the downtown area in over 120 years and the businesses were leaving. From the time I was elected to the time I took office— Nordstrom had already left, J.C. Penny announced they were leaving and Mier Frank announced they were leaving. I thought we were going to be rehabilitating this mall and it emptied out within days of my taking office. That was challenging 27 because the community loved that mall and preferred it to the Newgate Mall. The community wanted Nordstrom and J.C. Penny and Bon Marche back. I can't tell you how many times I heard that. Well, we tried. Nordstrom was livid with Ogden because they had tried to stay and when they had come out for a trip, apparently they had a meeting scheduled with the former mayor and his economic development director and Nordstrom got blown off. The economic development director was skiing and the mayor wasn't available to meet with them—and it was literally one of the Nordstrom family members there for the meeting. After getting blown off, Nordstrom said, "We're done." They wanted their space rehabilitated, they wanted their entrance re-done, and they wanted to know there was a commitment to seeing the mall flourish. Apparently, the owner of the mall had died or gone bankrupt and so Nordstrom was coming to make sure the city was monetarily committed to the mall, but the city blew them off and they said, "We're out of here." That started the chain of events where all the anchor tenants vacated the mall. We met with Mier and Frank several times. We flew back east to see them. It didn't work out. The feeling was, "This mall is never going to work. You're going to have to tear it down." We told the community that all the developers were saying the mall had to be torn down and the universal response from the community was, "It's a beautiful mall and it's only twenty years old, you can't tear it down." We were saying, "Nobody wants it. If we want a unique retail and entertainment center, we're going to have to tear it down." The community was 28 angry, understandably so. They didn't understand why we had to put money into this and why we couldn't just get Nordstrom to come back. We announced the river project, which was a sixty-acre development project on both sides of the Ogden River that we wanted to start. That meant we were going to have to be buying homes. When creating an RDA at that time, we had the ability to use eminent domain to acquire those properties. People were livid. It barely passed in the council. It was very difficult and was controversial. There were always huge groups of opposition when we did these projects. We did several projects on 25th Street, like the five-acre parcel that had been empty for forty years that we wanted to rebuild. Many members of the council and much of the community wanted to do this stuff for free and nobody wanted any risk. It doesn't work that way. It's our town and we need to invest in our own community. It was very challenging. We didn't have any money, so we had to be really creative in how we moved forward whether it was rebuilding the mall, developing the river project, or redeveloping 25th Street. Wall Avenue was a disaster, there were two different salvage yards in that area—our central business district had two salvage yards. We had to get those out of here and buy up property. ROH: How did you manage that? MG: We were very creative in finding little pockets of money. One of them was the IRS building, when we came into office, the IRS was reported to have been looking around for a place to build a new campus; their buildings were old and non-functional. I was thrilled when I heard about it. As soon as I hired Stuart Reid, I said, "Stuart, here's a contact. Our guy has been working on it. Will you 29 call the IRS and tell them that we'd like them to move downtown." They had already looked at downtown and said nothing suited their needs there. Well, Stuart and his guys found two administrative orders signed by the president; one said if there's downtown space available, then they needed to occupy it; the second said that they had to use a historic building if one was available. We found a historic building in downtown and took it to the IRS and said, "You have to come. Here's a site. It's downtown and a historic building we want you to use." They said, "No, we're not going to do it." I wasn't in the meeting, but it was reported back to me that the IRS was told, "You will do it or we will sue you for not following your own rules." Can you imagine doing that to the IRS? So, kicking and screaming they came. We purchased the property and sold it to a developer and we actually made a little money in the deal. Those early projects were critical to revitalizing the downtown area. It gave us a story to take to other people, "Look at this, here's a new development on 25th street and here are these new buildings downtown and all these new jobs coming to the area." Little by little we would build on the success and get people to come. Virtually every time we had to come up with some creative incentive to make these things come together. People will never appreciate how challenging it was. In fact, the development director came in one day and he said, "Do you see my hands?" They were all red. I said, "What's going on?" He said, "I'm losing the skin off of my fingers. This is so stressful. I can't sleep at night because I'm trying to figure out how to bring these things together and now I'm literally losing the skin off my body because of the stress." 30 We had a city council member who sort of had this constant theme of, "I'm supportive of the project. I just don't think we should be funding it. If it's such a great idea, the private sector should do it." It was like, "Where is a decayed downtown where the city just steps aside and the private sector just comes in and solves all the problems? I want to see the economic model where that has ever worked." It hasn't. Cities have to jump in and take part. We heard that all the time and it was like their justification not to participate. One council member had her daughter going around in the river project handing out fliers that told them what they had to do to stop the project from going forward. It included some kind of lawsuit or legal action that they could take against the city. I understood voting against it, but why in the world would a city council be acting against it? She too supported the project; she just didn't think the city should fund it. We kept asking her how to fund it without the city taking the primary role, and of course she had no suggestions. Apparently, it was just that the way we were doing it was wrong and there was surely a better way to do it but she didn't have any idea what it was. The same thing happened with The Junction. The same city council member opposed it. Mary Hall was the biggest opponent to all the things we were trying to do. It took about a year for us to realize we had to tear down the mall—it was about 2001 when we realized we had to take it down. We were talking about it all through 2000 and I think we finally got it down before the Olympics. We had to create some anchors and draws for the Junction. There were three key pieces to make the Junction work. One was the Tree House, 31 which eventually got put together but was so hard. The Tree House was one, the second was the Salomon Center, and the third was the movie theater. I got several phone calls saying the Tree House wasn't going to come, but they hung in there through great difficulty and eventually they did. That piece came together and the next was working with Larry Miller. There's a huge story behind that, but Larry Miller finally decided to build theaters in the downtown area just to help out the community here. Larry asked me if he would make money if he built the theaters in Ogden. I told him I didn't know if he was going to make money but commented, "We need you to come and do it because you have the Midas touch. If you come to downtown Ogden and build this theater, I'm convinced that the rest of the mall will come together and the downtown area will revitalize." That's turned out to be the case and he's made money. He's been very pleased. He told me that before he passed away. They agreed to come in if we got the Salomon Center. Tree House was already moving forward, expecting that we were going to do the rest of it. The Salomon Center was tough because the private sector wasn't going to do it unless the city was committed. We ended up having to be the owner of the property. We got a lease from two different entities that were going to run it. One was the Gold's Gym who also runs the Flow Rider, iRock and iFly. The second was the Fat Cats, which includes Costa Vida and the Pizza Factory. They agreed to lease the building from the city and we were using tax increment to fund about half of the construction cost. Once again, we had people saying, "This is never going to work. You're crazy. You're going to bankrupt the city. If this is such a 32 good idea, why wouldn't the private sector do it on their own?" We heard it over and over. I was sued personally as well as in my capacity as mayor. I had to hire a personal attorney out of my pocket because they sued me as a candidate and the city couldn't cover my attorney costs. ROH: Citizens of Ogden? MG: Some were citizens of Ogden, a lot were not. Dorothy Littral sued me and ended up losing. The judge ordered her to pay my attorney's fees. Those were dark days. There was a petition drive going on to stop the Salomon Center. If they got a certain number of signatures they could get it on the ballot and we knew this was going to be a tough project to explain to voters. This was a blue-collar community and it was not lost on any of us that going out to these sixty and seventy year old retired Hill Field and railroad workers and say, "We need to build a center that has indoor skydiving and it's going to be good for you. You need this." We knew it was a tough sell, but we also knew we needed to do something unique that would have a regional draw. It was going to be impossible to communicate in a way that our demographic was going to grasp. A referendum was going to be challenging. I went home one day and said, "Monica, if they get the signatures, we're done. We won't get the Center, which means we won't get the theater. Nobody is going to come to our town if we've got twenty-acres of city center sitting fallow." We barely had four votes on the council. I asked Monica if it was okay if I used personal money to make fliers and spread them out. The city couldn't use money to tell people not to sign the petition. After work, I would go home and print fliers 33 and deliver them. My wife was so awesome. She would go to the places that were allowing people to set up booths to sign a petition and she would go to the owner of the place with a flier and explain to them why it was so bad to have people signing the petition. She called me one day just sobbing because she'd explained it to a store owner and he was not very nice about it. People in line to sign the petition had been very rude. I felt so terrible—here I am making my wife go out and do the dirty work for what the city needed. ROH: What year was this? MG: It would have been 2005. Those were really dark times. If the Junction didn't happen, the town was done. It was hard to come up with an optimistic vision of what might happen if the Junction didn't get built. Luckily they lost their lawsuits and didn't get enough signatures on their petitions. We barely got enough votes to get it through. One of the former council members came and spoke at the meeting the night of the last vote to get the Salomon Center moving forward. She said to the council, "You know better." I'll never forget her words and her fervor. She said, "You guys are smarter than this and you know better than to approve this." It was a 4-3 vote, barely passing. A couple of them lost their seat because of that vote. That night, there were several that were claiming that Larry Miller wasn't going to build a theater and that it was all a farce and this was all going to collapse like a house of cards and we were indebting our citizens. We knew it was a huge gamble, but we knew that anything less was sure to fail. We needed to do something big enough to show that this was a new Ogden and a new vision 34 for the community. We didn't know if it was going to work. We had done our research, but none of these things had been built in a community our size before. We knew it was a roll of the dice, but we were obviously thrilled a year later when it was successful. Even now, in this recession, they have done remarkably well. ROH: What about the economic development along 25th Street? It's doing so much better. MG: Luckily, we had some great anchored tenants on 25th Street and unlike the rest of downtown, we weren't working from scratch. We had Roosters and Great Harvest that were doing great. MG: [Addition submitted by Matthew Godfrey] I believe the year was 2005. That was a dark time for all of us that were working so hard to turn the city around. It felt like mission impossible and that everything that could go wrong did. The financing was enormously complex and it was challenging to keep all of the players in the project from the private sector engaged because they were taking a big risk and were being bloodied by the CAVE (Citizens Against Virtually Everything) people in the process. I was working long hours and it was highly stressful. What made it bearable were all of the good people that stepped up to help. We had citizens that I hadn't met previously who showed up to support the idea. Dave Hardman from the Chamber of Commerce and Dan Musgrave from Downtown Ogden Inc. rallied their organizations to show up to the city council meetings and show support. I believe the contrast they provided against the negative people helped us get the four votes we needed to move the project forward. We feel gratified that the project worked as we had hoped. The Salomon Center was built, Larry 35 Miller theaters and Boyer built out their portion. The hotel was even completed east of the Salomon Center as we had planned. The Junction has been a catalyst for further redevelopment in downtown and has been the regional attraction we hoped for. I will always be grateful for those people that stepped up when times were hard. My family was always there. My father passed away during my tenure as mayor, I think about him often. My wife has always been and incredible support. I couldn't have asked for anything more than she provided. My parents as well as Monica's parents were equally supportive. My kids took a lot of grief from other kids in school because of the things I did as Mayor and I feel terrible that all these people that I care deeply about had to suffer for what I did at work. Hopefully, we made a difference in the community. We exceeded all of our goals and ended up recruiting over 8,000 jobs, leading the nation in job growth my last year in office. We were also able to recruit over $1.2 billion of private investment, redevelop over 130 acres of downtown with another 80 acres underway. We facilitated the building of well over half a million square feet of office space and in the process lowered crime by over 30 percent. We left Ogden City in a much better financial position then we found it, having established a "rainy day" fund for the first time in the city's history, to my knowledge. We were able to turn the tide on some of the historic housing in downtown that had turned into terrible rentals and recruit home ownership back to the area. We also added significant amounts of open space, new trails, kayak parks and other recreational amenities. We cleaned up the extremely blighted Ogden River 36 and made it the public asset it should have always been. We lowered property taxes three times and never raised them. Along with all of that there were many projects that we weren't able to finish that we really wanted to complete. Connecting Ogden to Snowbasin is a project that needs to happen. It will create the opportunity for Ogden in terms of new high-paying jobs, new tax revenue and retail that wouldn't come in any other way. I'm sure I've studied this issue in more detail than any person on the planet and I'm convinced of the good it will do for Ogden. There were many projects and initiatives we worked on that I regret not being able to finish. The last year or so in office, it felt like the City Council and other members of the community felt like we had done enough. I don't think they understand that if we don't continue to improve our town it will decay. For all of the enormous difficulties of serving as mayor for 12 years, I am grateful for the experience. I hope we have made the Ogden City better for the coming generation.

Richard Richards ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 81p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Richard Richards Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 7 August 2012 13 August 2012 24 September 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Richard Richards Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 7 August 2012 13 August 2012 24 September 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Richards, Richard, an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 7 and 13 August 2012 and 24 September 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Richard Richards October 2012 1 Abstract: Richard "Dick" Richards, WSU alum, attorney, author and Republican Party National Committee Chairman (1981), grew up in Ogden, Utah and became involved with politics as a young man in high school. Richard is now retired and resides in South Ogden, Utah after spending most of his political career in Washington D.C. He sat down with Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University to discuss his life growing up in Ogden, his family, education, career and devotion to Weber State University. Richard endowed the "Richard Richards Institute of Politics and Ethics" at Weber State University which awards scholarships to high school students, and currently serves on the board. He and his wife, Annette Bott Richards, have five children. ROH: Today we are beginning an oral history with Richard Richards in his home in South Ogden, Utah. My name is Rebecca Ory Hernandez. Why don't we go ahead with you just stating your name and where this interview is being held? RR: My name is Richard Richards, most people call me Dick. I'm in my home at 5273 Daybreak in South Ogden. I'm prepared to discuss my early history with Rebecca and I look forward to it. ROH: When and where were you born? RR: I was born in Ogden at the old Dee Hospital on May 14, 1932. Nearly all my brothers and sisters were born at the same hospital and had the same doctor, but that was a long time ago. The hospital is now gone. ROH: Where did you grow up? 2 RR: I grew up in South Ogden. I lived in Ogden until I was about 12 years old, and then moved to South Ogden and lived here until I was drafted into the army in 1952. ROH: What part of South Ogden? RR: My first home in South Ogden was 3999 Norton Avenue. That's just next to 40th Street and 40th Street was the dividing line between Ogden and South Ogden. My father bought that home during the war. It was a 1,000 square foot home and I had seven sisters and a brother. So, 11 of us lived in this 1,000 square foot home. There were a couple of bedrooms in the basement that accommodated us, but 11 people in that small home. I can't even remember how we ate dinner. There's no way we could have eaten at the same time because the kitchen wasn't that big. I have no recollection of how exactly we operated in the home, but we lived there for several years. ROH: Where did you fall in the family line-up of children? RR: My brother was the oldest child and I was next to him about a year and a half later. All seven girls came after me. Four of them were born in the month of May one year apart, so the family grew rapidly and it was all girls after my brother and me. ROH: I can't imagine having that many children under one roof. RR: I don't know how we did it. I really don't. I had one sister that was really fastidious and she needed the bathroom for a long time. We agreed that she could have 3 the bathroom for an hour starting at six o'clock in the morning. After that the family had it. ROH: Are all of your siblings still around? RR: One of them passed away. That's the one I was talking about. All of the others are scattered around from California, Idaho, Oregon and I have two sisters living in the Ogden area. ROH: Do you stay in touch with them? RR: We have family reunions. We just had one at Park City in July. We had 123 family members there. We've been doing this for about 20 years and we have not had one death in the family or one child born with severe disabilities out of all 153 of us. We have been a blessed group. We have MBA's, Ph.D's, and a couple of doctors. We've got some pretty good children and grandchildren. My father came from the coal mining camps of Utah when he was in the tenth grade. He didn't graduate from high school. He was tired of living in the coal mines and said, "I'm not going to be a miner, I'm getting out of here." He went up to Salt Lake and got a job helping a sign painting company called Bird and Jex Company. Later on, he decided he didn't want to work for them and he set up his own company here in Ogden. His first shop was no bigger than this living room, but he's the guy that brought us out of the coal mines. ROH: What was the name of the sign shop? 4 RR: Richards Sign Company. That was a long time ago, but that business still carries the name. It's gone through three generations. My father had a stroke many years ago and as a result he couldn't work so he sold his business to a guy by the name of Derek Warner. He ran it for some period of time, then he retired and gave it to his son. His son retired and now it's the next generation working the Richards Sign Company. The company was so well respected that no matter who owned it, they wanted to keep the name. It's still there on Grand Avenue and a bustling business, but it's different. They don't even have a paint brush down there anymore because everything is done by computer. When my dad sold it, we did it all by hand. ROH: Did you learn how to paint signs as well? RR: I did and I earned my living painting signs while I was in law school. Even after I graduated and I was practicing law, the income was so meager that at night I painted signs to make some money to take care of my family. I always hoped that potential clients didn't see me painting signs or they'd wonder about my ability as a lawyer. ROH: That's interesting. What about your mother? RR: My mother lived in Ogden. She met my father in a church activity and her father was a railroader and they lived down on Grant Avenue. My mother did graduate from high school and I don't know if she worked before they were married. ROH: Do you recall which high school she graduated from? 5 RR: It would have been Ogden High School because that's the only one there was. ROH: Okay. They met at a church activity, but can you be more specific? RR: Apparently, it was a Golden Green Ball, a dance of some kind where my father met my mother or shortly after because they participated in the dance and won a prize. A great uncle of mine introduced them. AR: What I understand is that she had caught his eye and she was walking along the street and he pulled over and said, "Could I have a date?" She said, "Yes, if you'll go to church with me." They did enter a contest with the Golden Green Ball and they won. ROH: Did you inherit their love of dancing? RR: No. I don't' dance. ROH: I'm surprised. I thought all politicians liked to dance. AR: He's got a son that dances. ROH: What were some of the things you did as a young person? RR: Before we moved out to South Ogden, I lived on Monroe and we played Kick-the- Can and all kinds of games in the streets. We didn't have television of course. We didn't pay too much attention to radio so we played outside. We played with each other. ROH: Where did you go to school? 6 RR: I went to school first at Quincy for the first grade and so on. Later on, I went to Madison. I was at Madison for a while, then my family went to South Ogden and I went to Riverdale Junior High School. After Riverdale I went to Weber High School. ROH: So you lived on Monroe for a little while? RR: Yes on 26th and Monroe. The family lived there, but as the family grew and more kids were born in the family we had to find a bigger place and my dad bought a house in South Ogden during the war for about $5,000. The house we lived in on Monroe is now a little parking lot for a neighbor. There's nothing there, but it was a very small yard and very small house. ROH: Are there any memories that you have from being at Quincy or Madison that you'd like to share? RR: Not at Qunicy, but when I moved to Madison, I was the newcomer and they had to see whether I was tough enough to be in that environment. They picked fights with me and forced me to fight. I wasn't going to fight. Kids carried me over to the park across the street and I was to fight with a guy and I beat him up, so I was successful there. Then, I had to try one more and I got in a fist fight during art class. The teacher came down, banged our heads together and stopped us. I punched the guy in the nose and his nose was bleeding. I was crying and I didn't want to fight. The teacher came down and knocked our heads together. The guy I was fighting hauled off and punched her and knocked her down. He was expelled from school. They didn't do anything to me because they knew I didn't 7 want to fight with this guy and that was apparent. He was kind of a bully and it was good. I passed the test fighting those two guys and from then on I was accepted. ROH: I just can't imagine that. Annette said she had something she wanted to share. AR: An interesting thing, I was at Quincy School and I was standing over by the water fountain. His brother, Jim, was a year older than me and Dick was a year younger than me. I remember thinking, "Oh, that's Jimmy Richard's little brother." He was running around. That was our first meeting and then he went to Madison and I continued on at Quincy. ROH: Okay. Were there any favorite subjects that stood out to you at that time as a young boy? RR: I liked the art classes, but we didn't have many of them until I went to high school. I was not a good student. I was a troublemaker and I just got by as far as the academics were concerned. There was always trouble, and a lot of it was my fault. I remember when I went to Riverdale Junior High School we rode the bus from South Ogden out to Riverdale and there was a kid in the neighborhood by the name of Tommy James. Tommy crowded in front of us in line for the bus. As I walked past him he took a seat up front and I hauled off and smacked him in the back of the head. When we got to Riverdale I chased him down and picked a fight with him and he just beat the hell out of me. That was the only time I was ever really beat up. He just kept pounding me, the big tall guy with long arms and I would be swinging at him and I'd be missing him by about four of five inches. 8 Incidentally, the principal came down and grabbed us and took us up to the principal's office. He said he was going to give us the board of education. He had a board that he used to paddle kids with and the board had holes in it so he could get a good swift whack. He asked what happened and I owned up. I said, "I picked the fight, it's my fault." I guess that impressed him and he said, "Well, get going and get back to class and I don't want any more of this." ROH: In junior high, Did you have any particular subject that you were fond of? RR: No, I was just getting by doing what I could do. ROH: Being a kid. RR: We rode the bus and I always rose a rumpus on the bus, so the driver kicked me out and said, "You're going to walk home." I said, "Okay." Instead of walking home I went around to the back of the bus and climbed in the window on the side he couldn't see. I rode in the bus with him until we got to Ogden and we got to the bus stop. I jumped out the window and ran up front and said, "Haha Clink, I beat you." He felt bad that he was going to make me walk and before he left he said, "Hey where's the Richards kid, I was only joking I wasn't going to make him walk." I played a joke on Clink. Incidentally, I've had an occasion to work with the Fernilius' again in my business. When we get to that I'll tell you. ROH: You went to Weber High. Tell me about that experience. RR: Well, I shaped up. ROH: Did your parents have a car growing up? 9 RR: Yes. In fact, I remember when I was six years old my brother and I had our tonsils taken out. We went to the doctor's office in the old First Security Bank building and had our tonsils removed. My father picked us up in his brand new Pontiac car. He paid $600 and got a beautiful blue Pontiac car. That's the first car I can remember my folks had. ROH: When you were young, do you remember where you went shopping for new supplies and clothes and things like that? RR: As a kid, I didn't do that. I don't remember that. As I grew up a little bit I remember being in town because I would go to the paramount theater that had the Popeye club. On Saturdays, they'd have Popeye and a series of the Lone Ranger or something and I remember going to town for that. Other than that, I don't remember going to town. ROH: In town are you talking about Ogden? RR: Yes, I'm still talking about Ogden. These were younger years. ROH: Is this the 25th Street area? RR: Yes. Actually there were several theaters in town at that time. There was an Orpheum, a Colonial, Lyseum, The Egyptian, and the Paramount. That's five theaters. Most of the kids went to the Paramount because that had the Popeye Club and the series. Movies cost about a dime and I would work around the yard and I'd get a dime or 25 cents and I was able to go to the movies. ROH: Okay, so we're going to go back to high school now. 10 RR: Before high school, let me talk about Riverdale Junior High School because that was really a turning point for me. That was a rough school. When I went there I was in the 7th and 8th grades and we were rough on teachers there. We drove a couple of teachers out of the room crying. There were several of us that were involved in this kind of stuff. ROH: How did you do that? RR: Just by not paying attention or throwing spit balls or whatever. We drove a couple of substitute teachers out of there. We were upstairs in a room that was called Idaho because it was kind of shaped like Idaho. My friend and I were in the back of the room raising the devil and there were two kids in the middle of the room that were raising Cain and the teacher came in and he just stood there with his arms folded for a few minutes waiting for everybody to shut up. They didn't shut up so he walked down the aisle and gave each of these kids a karate chop on the side of the head and whacked them in the kidney and knocked both of them out. Both of the kids fell with their faces on the desk and my friends and I shut up. That cured us. He really knocked the two kids out. One of the kids' families sued him because when he hit him in the kidneys he bruised him. This teacher didn't say anything and I don't know what happened to him, but I didn't see him again. That was sort of a turning point for a lot of us. After I left junior high school and went to Weber I shaped up. It was a 180 degree change for me. ROH: How many kids were in your class in junior high? RR: I would say there were 20 or something like that. 11 ROH: That was a good-sized class. Is there anything else from junior high that you can recall? What was your favorite part about being in school? RR: Recess. I remember I was supposed to be in arithmetic class, but before the class started I went down to the shop. There was nobody in there except a few kids. The teacher wasn't there and I had never had any experience with some of these tools like the buzz saw. I picked up a chunk of wood and I was going to cut it, but I put it in the wrong way in the saw. It threw the wood and knocked the window out of the class. It would have killed a kid if it hit him. I didn't know what I was doing. I got out of there and sneaked into my arithmetic class by crawling on my hands and knees to the desk so the teacher wouldn't see me coming in. It was a funny school, I had a friend called Toshi Shiba and he went around the junior high school with a water gun and he would shoot the light bulbs and it would pop them. In those days they didn't have a chandelier glass over them, they just had a globe. My friend went around shooting those things and the shop teacher caught him and grabbed him and shook him up and said, "I never did like you Japs anyway." Nothing ever happened as a result of that, but today that would be a disaster. ROH: It sounds like you were a bit precocious. RR: I was not a good little boy. I never did anything really bad, but I did a lot of things that were border line. ROH: Did your parents ever get called to school? 12 RR: No, and I never told them when I had a couple of teachers assault me in junior high school. One guy was a music teacher and he was in the auditorium with the music class and a kid in that class had stolen my baseball mitt. I spotted it because it had my name on it. He had used a leather puncher to punch holes in it so that my name would not be visible, but I saw it anyway. I went into the class and confronted the kid about the mitt. The teacher said, "You get out of here." I said, "I'm not going until I get my mitt." He came down and grabbed me by the shirt and took me out in the hall and he was slapping me on the side of the face front-hand and back-hand. He hit me several times, but I never told my parents about that. You know, that just happened. It was not uncommon in the schools for a teacher to whack a kid. ROH: That is true. Moving on to high school at Weber High, where was Weber High? RR: Weber High School was on 12th and Washington Blvd. We had to take a bus from home to school. When I got into high school I really settled down. It was a major change in my life. I was elected sophomore class president when I went out there. Right out of this junior high school environment to the high school and we had kids from other junior high schools come in from Eden and Huntsville. I don't know the circumstances, but I was elected sophomore class president. ROH: You don't recall running for president? RR: No, I don't recall any of that except that I was elected and I was in a sign painting class and I painted some signs for sophomore assemblies. I misspelled the word "sophomore." They said, "It's got an "o" in it." 13 ROH: You said you got more serious in high school. What were your academics like? RR: I was a good student. It was the beginning of a new life for me. AR: One of the teachers said that Dick was the worst and best student that she ever had. ROH: Did you go to high school together? AR: No, I went to Ogden High School. ROH: Did you have a favorite subject in high school? RR: Yes, I liked the debate class and I participated in the debates and extemporaneous competitions and I did well. So, I did a lot of it. It's interesting because the debate teacher at Weber High School was the same principal that dragged me up to the principal's office when I was at Riverdale. ROH: Is that right? He moved from the other school to that school. He must have had some kind of impact on you. Who were your friends in high school? RR: I had several that lived out here in South Ogden like, George Palmer, Carl Hassel and Bud Reed. I had a lot of friends. We did things in a group out here. Nobody played alone. ROH: What were some of the things you were involved in other than debate? Were you involved in any clubs or activities? RR: No, because I worked after school. Instead of taking the school bus, I would take the city bus and go from 12th Street down to my dad's shop and work after 14 school. I didn't have any time for any of the athletics. I did win the intramural boxing championship for my weight when I was in high school. I didn't play football, basketball, or baseball or anything. Those intramurals took place within the classroom for the most part. ROH: So you continued to fight in high school. You got into boxing? RR: Not a lot, but we had an intramurals program in boxing and I won that in my class. I boxed with the kids that were in the other class. I also wrestled. I met another kid in the other class wrestling, I got down on the mat like you're supposed to and he was over me and the referee said, "Go!" He pinned me so fast I didn't even know what I was doing. I was out of that competition in 15 seconds, just as long as it took for the referee to count me out. This kid was a skinny kid with a glass eye and he went on to win the state championship in his weight a couple of years. He was a very good wrestler. I think his name was Garcia. ROH: So, if you ran for sophomore class president, you were interested in politics at that time. RR: Yes, and that is one of the things that I gravitated toward was the speech class and the debate and that sort of thing. About that time I had developed my philosophy as a Republican. One of my debate partners was a democrat, one that I called the yellow dog democrat. He would rather vote for a yellow dog than a Republican and that's still his philosophy. My father talked politics to us at the dinner table. He talked about a conservative writer at that time called Westbrook 15 Pegler. Pegler was a conservative and he hated the Roosevelts. Most of his column was anti-Franklin and Eleanor and my dad talked about that. There were also some things happening in our life that got me to be a conservative. During that time when we were growing up, we had a coal furnace. The coal man would come to your house, open the coal chute and empty the coal out in the basement. John L. Lewis was the head of the coal miners' union and he called a strike. When he called a strike, we couldn't get coal and everybody complained about that. Even my grandmother and my father complained about it. My father said, "I'm not going to be at the mercy of John L Lewis," and he changed the coal furnace to a gas furnace. John L. Lewis was really big at that time. ROH: When was this? RR: I would say in the early 1940's. Coal mining was a big deal. My grandfather was a coal miner and he still lived down in Carbon County. Coal miners liked John L. Lewis because he got the wages up. He forced people to pay more and if they weren't willing to do that he would call a strike and limit the coal production. My dad talked about that a lot at the dinner table and that had an influence on me. ROH: Who was your friend that was the person who would vote for anyone but a Republican? RR: Jerry Hatch. He was my debate partner. His dad was in the state legislator as a democrat. Jerry always was a democrat. He never changed. He is still a democrat. 16 ROH: When you were in high school did you realize that you wanted to go to college at that point? RR: Yes. In fact, I wanted to be a lawyer at that time and when I wrote my name on the book just to identify it as my book I would write, "Richard Richards Esquire." AR: I've got a page out of something when he was the student of the year and he tells what he wants to do in the future. RR: When I was a senior in high school, I was chosen to give the Valedictory speech. I was not the Valedictorian, but I was chosen to give that speech at the graduation. ROH: So you ran for president and got interested in debate, how did that come about? Were you listening to the radio at that point or did you hear other people speak that influenced you? RR: We listened to the radio and read the newspaper. We always had newspapers and I even take four newspapers here now. I spend a couple hours every day reading the Wall Street Journal and the Investor's Business Daily, The Standard, and Deseret News. ROH: That's incredible. Did your dad take a lot of newspapers too at your house? RR: I don't know how many he took, but I know we took some. ROH: I was just trying to find out where the influence of the debate would have come from because you were interested in both battling physically and verbally so I find that fascinating. 17 RR: Well, I think the word "debate" means to "beat down." ROH: Did you have teachers that inspired you in high school? RR: My debate teacher was the principal out at Riverdale that banged my head. He was my coach all the way through. ROH: You were in school and you were working so give me an idea of your schedule. RR: I would go to school and after school at 3:30 p.m. I would go to my dad's shop and work for a couple of hours and go home. I always worked on Saturdays. My dad probably was the greatest influence on me of anybody because he always said, "I'm not going to give you money, but I'll give you a job. You can work for it and you can have the money." That's the way he was. ROH: So you were student of the year in your high school. RR: Well I don't know if that's what they called it, but maybe they did. ROH: Yes, we will get a copy of this. I'm looking at a photograph that says, "The typical boy graduate is Dick Richards, he's only 5'8" but he has short brown hair and warm brown eyes. He likes school this year but in the past years he skipped school every chance he got. Now he's sorry he's leaving." Is this college or high school? RR: That's high school. ROH: Do you remember what you talked about in your speech? 18 RR: I don't think I have a copy of that speech, but I have a copy of my college speech when I spoke at graduation there. ROH: You were public speaking at a young age. We're going to finish up talking about high school years and move on to college. When you graduated from high school, you wrote the commencement speech. What did you do after high school? RR: Obviously, during the summer I worked for my dad. In the Fall I enrolled at Weber Junior College. Weber Junior College at that time was on 25th Street at about Monroe and Madison. There were about four buildings there and one of them is still there— it's the Deseret Gym building. The other buildings are gone. It was a very small school. Interestingly enough, the president of that school was Dr. Henry Aldus Dickson. He knew an awful lot of the kids by name. We were all very friendly with him. He took a liking to me and I'm not sure why, but he said to me one time, "Dick, are you having a little trouble raising money to go to school?" I said, "Yeah, I'm working but I don't have the money yet." He said, "Well, you drop in my office and see the secretary and she'll give you a scholarship." So I walked in the office and they gave me a twenty-five dollar scholarship. That was a full quarter's tuition. I actually have a copy of that scholarship. ROH: That's fantastic. RR: He liked me and he wanted to help me out. I guess he knew I came from a family of a lot of kids. All of my siblings were still at home. ROH: Did your brother ahead of you go to college? 19 RR: I don't remember. I guess he went to college before me, but I didn't have a lot of relationship with my brother at that time. He was a year and a half older than me and he had different friends. We did some things together, but mostly we each had our own friends. ROH: What did you study at Weber College? RR: I studied debate, philosophy, political science, and economics. I did a lot of those subjects, I didn't do any basket weaving and that stuff. No political correctness at that time. I got enough credits in what I studied in history, philosophy and economics that I was able to transfer them to law school without having a bachelor's degree. When I applied to law school they said, "Well you haven't got a bachelor's degree, you can't come here with what you've got." I said, "Look at the catalog." The catalog said, "153 acceptable hours," or something and I had them. I said, "There they are." He said, "Well, I guess you're right." They enrolled me in law school without having a degree from Weber. ROH: Where was that? RR: University of Utah law school. ROH: How old were you when you started law school? RR: I started law school after I'd been in the army and returned, so there's a gap there. ROH: Did you go into the army after Weber? 20 RR: In August of 1952, I was drafted. The Korean War was on and we were all drafted. It was kind of interesting at that time because there was a lady by the name of Agnus Christe who was the head of the selective service office who really resented Mormon kids going on missions and not going in the army. So, the day you turned 18 you got a draft notice. You couldn't go on a mission. ROH: Did you have any other friends that you were in the army with at that time? RR: I was drafted ahead of my friends for some reason by a matter of a few months. I was drafted with one kid from Ogden by the name of Jim Pollus and we went to basic training together. I went on to leadership and OCS and he did not. He's passed away since. My friends I had here in South Ogden came to Fort Ord after several months that I had already been there so I was ahead of them in the army. ROH: Well, we just kind of skimmed over Weber College, so the next time we meet we'll talk about Weber College, the Army, and Law School. Thank you very much for sharing your young years with me and we will continue next time. This is the end of the interview on August 7, 2012. Thank you. RR: You're Welcome. ROH: Today is Monday, August 13, 2012. We are in the home of Richard Richards, who goes by Dick. I am Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University and we are going to continue his oral history. We will pick up with your university years from where we left off last week. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your time in law school? 21 RR: After I came home from the Army, I decided to go to law school. I had done some other things in the meantime, but when I found out I was going to go to law school I needed some more credit hours. I went back to Weber and picked up some more hours in political science, history, and philosophy. I was married and had two children. I had to work because I had to make a living, so I worked for my father part-time and painted signs. I worked in Ogden for my dad about 20 hours a week and went to law school. That was an hour a day going down and an hour a day going back. That didn't leave me a lot of time for studying. I really didn't study very hard in law school, but I studied all day Sunday and started at 5:00 a.m. It was a tough grind. I decided it ought to be easier if I lived in Salt Lake because I wouldn't have to commute. So, I got a job with the state liquor commission. It was a political job. Governor Clyde was the governor and I think Laurence Burton was his assistant at that time. Anyway, I got a job with the liquor commission selling liquor out on 23rd South and 13th East. They paid $1.65 an hour and that wasn't enough for me to make a living so I decided even though I'm going to live in Salt Lake I better commute to Ogden to work because I could make $2.50 an hour painting signs. I moved to Salt Lake to the student housing. It was called "Stadium Village." That's where the stadium is now. Rent was $30.00 a month so it was livable for a student. While I was in law school, I was active with the Young Republicans and I was asked to become the Young Republicans state chairman. I didn't know about that because it takes time and doesn't pay so I thought I'd 22 better check with the Dean. He said, "I think you could be of help to us so you go ahead and take that job." I took it and the interesting thing is, later on when the law school was trying to get an appropriation from the state legislature to build a new law school. Jerry Hanson and I invited his grandfather who was a leader in the state legislature to come to the law school and see what kind of shabby condition it was in. He visited the law school and said, "Boy, this is bad." Our main classroom in the law school was a row of tables about 24 inches deep and about six or eight feet long and they were covered with Masonite. They were really old-fashioned. The chairs were all separate and it was a noisy place. When they saw that they said, "Let's make an appropriation for a new law school." They usually invited the governor to come speak on "Law Day" which was the first of May. The assistant dean said, "The governor doesn't like lawyers, he won't come here." I was up to the governor's office talking to Laurence and I asked, "Would the governor like to go up to the University of Utah law school and speak on May Day?" He said, "Sure, we'd love to do that, but we haven't had an invitation." I asked, "Will you come if you get an invitation?" They said, "Yes." I drove back to the law school and went in the dean's office and said, "The governor would like to come if you'll give him and invitation. You type one up and I'll hand carry it to him." He was really pleased that we could get the governor there. The assistant dean that said the governor wouldn't come was embarrassed. ROH: Who was the governor at the time? 23 RR: George Dewey Clyde. The dean of the law school was Dean Diksra. He was a good dean. The assistant was a fellow by the name of Emory. Emory was a democrat and he didn't want the governor up there anyway. ROH: It must have been really good for the law school. RR: These were big helps in getting a new law school. Anyway, I hadn't graduated because I was seven hours short for graduation. I did it in two years. I didn't have time to go for three years. I was married with kids and didn't have time for that. I took extra credit and went through the summers. A couple of the fellows were in the same plight so we asked if we could take the Bar early with the preceding class. They agreed to let us take it. We took the Bar and I passed the Bar before I graduated. I had to go back to pick up seven more hours. Needless to say, I wasn't a very diligent student after having passed the Bar already. They changed the system after that. From then on you had to have a degree. They won't let you take the Bar until you've completed law school. We ruined that for the next-comers. ROH: Did you specialize in anything in law school? RR: No, I just graduated. I was not at the top of my class. I was in the top third of the class, but I did not strive to be number one. I didn't have time to study and do all that because I was working. In fact, working 20 hours was against the rules. They said if you go to law school you can't work 20 hours because you wouldn't be able to keep up. They tested me when they found out I was traveling to Ogden, but I did okay and that all worked out. After I got out of law school, I got a 24 job with the Clayton and Gould law firm in Ogden. Since they were both prosecutors I couldn't do any criminal work. If you can't do criminal work as a young lawyer, you're never going to do any trial work. I said, "I want to get courtroom practice so I'm going to quit." I quit and went on my own. I remember my first month I did not make one dime practicing law. The second month I made $50. It was a struggle. By the end of the year I was making pretty good money, but our total was $6,000 a year my first year. ROH: Do you remember your first case? RR: Yes. I remember my first major cases anyway. I went to the judges and said, "I want to try lawsuits. Give me your guys in jail who don't have any money and can't bail out and I'll represent them for free." Between the judges they gave me ten felons and they were spread out over about a year's time. I got eight acquittals out of the ten. Immediately, I had a lot of criminal clients. They would ask, "Who's your attorney?" They would give them my name and that generated a lot of business for me. I got tired of the criminal stuff, but it was a great experience to try the cases. The first murder case I had was a fellow that came into town on a Greyhound bus, got out of the bus station, walked across the street to the Friendly Tavern, pulled out a pistol and said, "So you're the "blankety-blank"?" He shot a guy about seven times. That was Joe Edgington. He killed him right on the spot. He didn't even know him and the guy was completely nuts. He thought he was somebody else. He casually walked across the street toward the police 25 station. Several witnesses saw him throw the gun in the bushes and keep on walking and they arrested him. L.G. Bingham and I were assigned to defend him pro bono and that was my first major criminal case. L.G. Bingham, in my opinion, was the smartest lawyer in town. He was a good thinker, but he was not a real studious guy and he didn't spend a lot of time preparing the case. Sometimes he would go into court without any defense in mind. He'd find a defense as the prosecutors put on their case. He won a lot of cases. He was very talented in doing that. He and I defended this guy and ended up pleading "not guilty" by reason of insanity. That stuck and he went to a mental institution. I haven't heard anything from him since. That was my first case. L.G. Bingham and I defended another case of a couple of fellows that murdered a man on North Ogden Divide. Maybe you read about it. They picked up a sailor from Salt Lake and took him up to Ogden. They'd been drinking and they thought he had money so they took him up to rob him. The guy resisted and they hit him. They took off all his clothes, threw him in the car and left the guy naked. He was walking down the highway naked and finally fell over the side and froze to death. They were looking through his clothes because they thought he had some money in it. They looked through his shirt and no money in his shirt and threw it out the window as they traveled down the canyon. There was no money in the pants, so they threw the pants out along with the shoes and socks. His clothes were strewn down the canyon for a half a mile and nobody really understood what it was all about. One of the boys called the police and gave himself up. They arrested the other guy a few days later. Ray defended one of 26 them and I defended the other one. They got off with a voluntary manslaughter and two years in prison. They were young guys, drinking and doing stupid stuff and ended up killing a man. I tried cases from 1961 until 1980 when I went to Washington to work full-time with Ronald Reagan. I did spend some time in the early 1960's in Washington with Laurence Burton. That was for two years. I was there at the time that John Kennedy was killed and the Senator of Texas and John F. Kennedy's Vice President, Lyndon Johnson, became the president. ROH: How did it come about that you ended up moving to Washington? RR: Laurence Burton asked me to help him on his campaign. I was one of two major campaign managers on his campaign for congress and he won. He invited me to come back to Washington. I went back there as his legislative assistant and after a year I was made his administrative assistant. Dr. Aldus Dickson, who was a good friend of mine as I indicated earlier said, "Dick, do not stay there more than two years. Laurence is going to ask you to stay, but don't do it." ROH: Why not? RR: He said, "If you do you'll get caught up as a professional staffer in Washington and you'll never develop a career of you own." The pay is good and it's an exciting thing if you're a staffer to a senator and they have big issues. I followed his advice and I came home. ROH: When did you come home? 27 RR: I came home in 1964. I was here when the election was held and Barry Goldwater was soundly defeated. I decided I wanted to run for party chairman. I'd been Young Republican chairman, so I ran for party chairman and won overwhelmingly. The reason I did is because while I was working for Laurence I traveled to all of the counties in the state when they held their county convention. Those were the guys that were going to be delegates to the state convention. When I met them on the county level and they came to the state, they at least knew who I was. I ran against a guy from Salt Lake that should have won. He had a lot of money, was a prominent business guy, and kind of a moderate fellow, but I beat him about six or seven to one. Afterward he said, "I knew you were going to beat me, but I didn't think you were going to stomp me into the ground." He was a good sport. I was the party chairman for two years. In 1966, the state of Utah turned from a Democratic state to a Republican state. People say this has always been a Republican state. However, they were heavily Democratic all over. All of the counties were controlled by Democratic county commissioners. In Weber County, prior to that time, only one Republican had been elected to county office for 50 years. That was Sherriff Mac Wade. This county was so strongly Democrat that a Republican may as well not even get on the ballot. We turned that around in 1966 and won control of the legislature, both the House and the Senate, by a vast majority. I think there were only five Democrats in the Senate when we got to it. There were only ten in the House. In fact, we elected too many. It was a bad deal to have that many Republicans and 28 so little opposition. That gradually faded out. That was one of the most exciting elections of my life because it was such a wonderful victory. I was re-elected party chairman in 1968. I had a good record and got a call from the Republican National Committee in Washington. The chairman of the Republican National Committee asked me if I'd come back and interview for a job working for the National Committee. I went back and I remember the feeling. I got out of my hotel and got that stinky, humid Washington air and I said to myself, "Dick, what in the hell are you doing here? Turn around and go home." I went to the interview with the deputy chairman and the chairman of the committee at that time, Rogers Morton. They offered me a job and I took it. I became the head of party development. After I did that for a while, I was promoted to the political director of the National Committee. I brought my family back and we lived in Maryland. We also lived in Virginia down by the Pentagon and had some nice experiences. We went to the grave site ceremony of John Kennedy when he was taken to Arlington National Cemetery. Later, at the top of the cemetery, they put a forever memorial for John Kennedy. Laurence and the other congressman from Utah, Sherm Lloyd, were there. Somehow or another we got on the parade route out to the cemetery. The soldiers and the Marines were lined up all the way and we had no way to get off. Laurence was joking and said, "Don't throw out any beer cans." We went up past the soldiers and when we got to the cemetery, the guy that was in charge told us we had to leave. We didn't want to after all that effort, so we sneaked into the press section and got kicked out of the press section too. We 29 went up the road and nobody paid attention to us there, but everybody including the Kennedys came up that road. The Carsons and the Kennedys were there. The Emperor of Ethiopia and Charles Degall came in. We were almost within touching distance of each of them. It was really kind of interesting to see that. In part of the ceremony they had the Irish Guard do a drill procedure and when they were through they marched out. As they marched out me and this kid marched in where they had been and we ended up right in front of the congressman. Laurence Burton said, "Hey Dick, look who's standing behind you." I looked behind me and there was Adlai Stevenson, who was the ambassador, and all these big-shots. We stood directly across from the grave site where the Kennedy casket was standing. The Kennedys were all on the other side. I was not even 20 feet away from Jacqueline Kennedy and her kids when all of this happened. In fact, we had a chance to walk by the casket. That was a good experience. Then, of course, Lyndon Johnson became the president and in 1964 he forced the passage of the Civil Rights Act that Kennedy could not get done. Kennedy didn't have the horsepower in the Senate to get it done. The House passed it, that wasn't a big problem, but it was the Senate that didn't want to pass it. They filibustered and did everything they could to avoid passing it. Lyndon Johnson just beat them up and on the 4th of July, they passed the Civil Rights Act. ROH: What was that like living in Washington when that happened? 30 RR: That was an exciting time. They had Martin Luther King Jr. speak at the Lincoln Memorial. There were hundreds of thousands of people there. I was at the Capitol and we talked about going down, but we figured it wasn't a good thing to do to go clear down there and get involved in that crowd. We were also there at the time the Blacks rioted on 14th street and burned a lot of the buildings. That was pretty close to the same time Martin Luther King Jr. gave his historic speech at the Lincoln Memorial. That was a big event at that time. It was an exciting time and an exciting point in history. ROH: Do you remember having conversations with your family about those events in the evenings when you were home with them? RR: My kids went with me when we saw the Kennedy ceremony. I explained that to them and when we got home and they were excited about it. They liked John Kennedy, they though he was a wonderful fellow. They got to do things that other kids don't get to do. They got to go to the White House, the Capitol building, Williamsburg and Jamestown. We went down to Jamestown and that was one of the great experiences where we saw replicas of those three little boats that brought the pilgrims here in 1607 and built the first permanent settlement in America. They gave us the history about how most of them starved to death or were killed by the Indians or by something else. There were very few survivors. That was a real eye-opener to us about early history. We got up to the Baltimore Harbor where Frances Scott Key saw the Star Spangled Banner and we saw the battlefield of the fight between the British and 31 the Americans on the Potomac River. Of course, the British captured Washington and they burned down a lot of things. They tried to burn down the White House and burned down a lot of it. They torched the various places in the Capitol and you can still see where the smoke was where they had gone with their torches. That was a great experience for my kids. They all became far more interested in American government. ROH: You've written a lot about your time in Washington in your book, so I won't repeat a lot of that, but tell me a little bit about how you felt about your career at that time. You had some significant leaps and bounds from Ogden to Washington at that point. RR: Reagan was anticipated to be a candidate for president in 1968. The convention was held in Miami Beach and Nixon, George Romney, and Rockefeller were candidates. Nixon was the clear leader. I was the state party chairman at that time. I knew the Nixon people and they knew me. They talked to me many times about helping on the Nixon campaign and I said, "Well, I'm the chairman of the party so I can't do that." We invited Ronald Reagan to come to our convention and the Nixon people were just livid after Reagan spoke. We only had about 14 national delegates at that time. This was the year we picked our delegates to go to the national convention. Nixon was clearly the favorite, although George Romney had some friends here because of his Mormon ties and ties to Utah. A guy from Cutbank, Montana who was a close associate of Reagan and a guy I knew as a party chairman said, "Dick, how would you like to have Ronald 32 Reagan be the keynote speaker at your convention, he'll do it for free." I said, "Hey, great. We want him." He came and Annette and I met him in the old Hotel Utah the night before he spoke. That was the first time we met Ronald Reagan. Annette was enamored because he was a movie star, and I was enamored because he was a politician. Anyway, he spoke the next day and he just mesmerized our delegation. Every one of them would have turned around and voted for him against Nixon if he ended up being our candidate. As we got down to Miami Beach, Nixon was nominated and Reagan withdrew his name, but George Romney stayed in and I was given the opportunity to second the nomination of George Romney for president back in Miami Beach. That was a high point for me. Nixon won of course. After he won the convention delegates, they hired me to do some ground work as a field man for Nixon in about 8 Western Rocky Mountain states. I had Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Hawaii, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana and Arizona. I organized the ground campaign and it is interesting because the thing that attracted me to the National Party Leaders to begin with was my organizational technique for recruiting people to go door-to-door. We called it the neighbors program. I was called back to New York after Nixon was nominated to meet with John Mitchell who was in charge of the campaign. They asked me about this program that I had in mind and Mitchell liked it, but some of his aides didn't like it and they started to argue with me. Mitchell sat there and just smoked his pipe and never said a word during my presentation. When it was all done, they started asking, "How do you know this is going to work?" I said, "We've done 33 it, we know how this thing works, you don't have to worry about that." Mitchell said, "We're going to do it. I like it. Richards, we'd like you to come to work full-time for us." I said, "I can't do it because I'm the party chairman out in Utah, but I know somebody who can do that program for you." They wanted to do it in Oregon first and he was running a primary against Rockefeller. Oregon was a liberal state and Nixon's people said, "We're not even going to go there, it's just a waste of time." So they didn't go there, but they sent my friend Alan Peterson, who was the guy that I recommended to do this. Peterson was an intern to me when I was party chairman in Utah. He knew my program, so they hired him to run the program and Nixon won. Nixon had never been there and Rockefeller had been there three times. Rockefeller's slogan was, "He cared enough to come." Everybody expected Rockefeller to win, but Nixon did win. Nixon said, "That's my secret weapon. I want to do that." Peterson was hired to run this program all over the country and did a great job with it. After the Nixon campaign, the next effort I got involved with was when Ronald Reagan was running against Gerald Ford. Nixon left, Ford became the president and Ford wanted to run. These same people that brought me back to Washington all thought I would be for Ford and wanted me to be involved in his Ford campaign. They asked me to get involved and I said, "I can't do that. I'm for the other guy." They said, "You're for Ronald Reagan? You can't be against the seated president. You're a party chairman and you're against our incumbent president?" In fact, the owner of Zion's Bank in the state of Utah, Roy Simmons, 34 met me at the airport and said, "Dick, that's crazy. You're going to go for that "class B" act against the president." ROH: Why was that? Why were you so pro-Reagan? RR: I just really liked the guy. I saw something in him and I thought, "This is the guy that ought to be the president." Reagan and Ford contended against each other at the convention in 1976 and it was a very close battle. We lost it right at the last minute and we felt bad about that. Prior to the time that I went to work with him Ronald Reagan had a group called Citizens for the Republic. This was a political action committee that was not for his benefit but where he could raise money and give to conservative candidates. Paul Laxalt was Reagan's closest friend in Washington, the former governor of Nevada and the Senator at that time. He invited me to join the Citizens for the Republic. I got a letter from Ronald Reagan saying, "I understand you're willing to do this, I'd love to have you join us." I became a member of the executive committee for the Citizens for the Republic. After we lost to Ford, we held a couple of monthly meetings and the meetings were usually held in Florida or someplace a distance from me and I had to fly over there and I had to pay a hotel bill. It cost me money to do it, about a thousand bucks every time I went to one of the meetings. After I went to a couple of them I thought, "This is a big waste of time." I got up in a meeting Paul Laxalt was conducting and said, "You know the next battle we're going to have is a convention fight just like the one we just lost and I don't see us getting any better prepared than we were then. I think we're wasting time." Ronald Reagan was 35 sitting at the far end of the table and he was doodling. After I said that he stopped and said, "That's right," and he pointed the pen at me. Paul said, "Well, does anybody else have anything to say?" We said, "No." No one else was going to interfere after the president said that. He said, "Okay, Dick, I'm appointing you to form a committee to come back to the next meeting and tell us what we ought to be doing. Richard, you're the chairman of the committee." We held some meetings after that and came back to the next meeting and gave him a report on what I thought we ought to be doing. We put together a program and I presented it. Everybody at the meeting thought it was a great idea except for two people. One of them was John Sears, who later became the chairman of the Reagan campaign. The chairman was fired at the night of the New Hampshire primary. The other guy was a fellow that had been with Reagan for many years named Nofziger. They all said, "Hey, this is great we want to do it. So after the meeting was over, I headed home and Paul Laxalt remained there for a while with this guy from Cutbank, Montana and Paul said, "I like Dick's idea, but who's going to get to run it? The program entails some work." Frank said, "Well, why don't you ask Dick?" Paul said, "He's a lawyer, he doesn't have time to do this and we don't have money to pay him to get it done. That's a lot of time involved." Frank said, "Well, before you write him off, ask him." So Paul called me on the phone and asked, "Would you run this program that you proposed to us? We will pay all of your expenses and enough money to pay your overhead of your office while you're gone working for us, but we don't have the money to pay you for your time." I said, "Okay." 36 I spent several months doing that and after Reagan got nominated and he was going to do the campaign, he said, "Dick, we want you to run the Western half of the country." Dick Wirthlin was put in charge of it and Bill Casing was the chairman. Dick Wirthlin was the strategist and would say, "We want you to take everything West of the Mississippi River except Texas and build the ground organization." After we won, Reagan wanted me to be the chairman of the transition team for the Department of Interior. I headed the team where we transitioned the Department of Interior from the Democrats to the Republicans and that was an interesting experience because they were paranoid about us and we were paranoid about them. It was common courtesy for the outgoing administration to cooperate with the incoming and let them have whatever information they wanted. So, we went down to the Department of interior, I recruited a group of guys to work with me on the campaign. Paul Laxalt had a couple people he wanted to do that and we took over down at the Department of Interior. We decided what we wanted to do, what people we wanted to remove and what changes we wanted to make. During that time, there were a lot of rumors in the paper about what was going to happen to Dick Richards. You saw them in Ogden. Is he going to be Secretary of the Interior? Is he going to be chairman of the party? When we got through with the Department of Interior, I got a call from the White house and they asked, "Dick, will you be available at 5:00 p.m. to take a call from the White House?" I said, "I'll be here." At 5:00 p.m., I get a telephone call from Ronald Reagan and he said, "Hi Dick, this is Ron, you've been reading about rumors that I was going to 37 appoint you chairman of the National Committee, so I want to make those rumors a reality. Would you take that chairmanship for me?" I said, "Mr. President, I'd be glad to." That's how it happened. ROH: It was that simple. RR: That simple. That's the way Reagan was, he was straight forward and simple. Let me tell you a thing I learned. This is a little out of order, but it shows Reagan. After I was elected, I was invited to go to the meetings that took place once a month between the president and the leaders of the House and the Senate. Bob Michael was a minority leader of the House. He was from Peoria, Illinois. One time, as we walked into the meeting, President Reagan says, "Hi Bob, how are things in Peoria?" Bob says, "Shucks, Mr. President, we've got it tough. We've got 5,600 caterpillar workers unemployed. We're trying to get a contract to sell our ditch-digger to the Russians and we just can't get it done." The president said, "Well, what's the matter? Is that a piece of high-tech equipment or something?" He says, "Hell no, it's a ditch digger, anybody can make a ditch digger." The president said, "Then I don't understand." He said, "Well, we have to get permission from the Department of Commerce in order to make the sale and they haven't made a decision." The president walks over and put his hand on his shoulder and said, "Bob, they just did." That day, Bob announced to his people in Peoria that the President approved their sale and they all went back to work. That's the way Reagan did it. I would have thought that he would have said to his Chief of Staff, Jim Baker to call Secretary Mossbacker and see what's holding 38 this up. Well, he didn't need to do that, he was president he could make the decision. ROH: Today is Wednesday, September 5, 2012. We are in the home of Richard Richards continuing his oral history. This is Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University. Present are Rebecca and Richard Richards as well as Annette Richards. Why don't we pick up from when you were still in Washington D.C. and you've finished your political piece of working with the White House? Tell me what you did after that presidential term was completed. RR: After I completed my two year assignment at the Republican National Committee, I chose not to run longer because there were too many problems fighting with people that wanted to control the National Committee and all that stuff. As I left, Ronald Reagan called me down to the White House and said, "Dick, you've been a loyal lieutenant to me for a long time, but you've never really been in my administration. I would like you to come and be part of the Reagan administration. What I'd like you to do is go over to the Department of Interior and be the Under Secretary to Jim Watt. Jim is having trouble and I think you could help him out. I said, "Well, Mr. President, I've been a volunteer for you for about six years and I'm broke. I need to get out and make some money. So, I really don't think I can do that." Not only that, I was beginning to have some health problems and I knew that it would be a torture chamber to go through some kind of hearing with the Senate controlled by the Democrats. I could not imagine that the Democrats would approve someone who had just been chairman of the Republican Party to go be the Under Secretary of the Department of Interior. I 39 passed that up and I opened up a lobbying lawyer business in Washington and began representing various interests. ROH: What was the name of the company? RR: Initially, I was with a couple of other lawyers, but when I started my own company it was called, "Commerce Consultants International" (CCI). When I left the National Committee, I had a going away party sponsored by the National Committee. It was to introduce my replacement, but also it was sort of a going away party for me and Ronald Reagan came. I heard from some inside people that some of the folks at the White House said, "Don't go for Richards, you didn't go when Dick Allen left or when others left. Why go for him?" Reagan said, "Well, I like him and we'll go." So, Reagan came and he spoke and said, "Dick Richards was my friend when it took courage to be my friend." That refers to the fact that I was the only state party chairman that supported Reagan against Gerald Ford while Ford was the president. That set me apart from the others and that's why Reagan appreciated me. It took courage to do that. I opened my office and immediately got some clients. One of the first clients was Sikorsky Helicopter Company. They had been trying to sell their helicopter to Taiwan for about six years. At one time they had a deal, but when Jimmy Carter was president he killed it. I met with a representative who was a lobbyist for Sikorsky and also a General from Taiwan. He came to my office and said, 'We want to buy the Black Hawk, and if we can't get it in the next six months we're going to write it off and we're going to buy the French helicopter 40 called the Augusta. We'll give you six months to get this done." I contacted Ed Meece who was counselor to the president and told him what we wanted to do. He went to the president and the president said, "Let them have what they want." That was six years of red tape cut by the president. I became a hero to Sikorsky because they'd been trying for six years. I developed a pretty good base of aerospace clients. I represented Sikorsky and I did some work for Boeing, General Dynamics and Pratt Whitney jet engines. I did a lot of work for them over many years. It turned out to be a very good client. ROH: Were there any other major clients when you were working? RR: I had some interesting ones. I was asked to represent the Kingdom of Thailand. I was the foreign agent for Thailand here in the United States. The United States was pressing some trade violations against Thailand. They were copying some of our medications. I remember they had a fake Sudafed that they sold and they copied our movies and all kinds of stuff. They stole a lot of intellectual property. The United States was going to punish them for it. When I was representing them, I talked to the Prime Minister and saw the other people that were movers and shakers over there and I asked, "What's your deal?" They said, "We'll stop stealing in two years, but we've got to do that now because the American products like medications are too expensive for Thai people to buy so we have to copy them and sell them at a lower price. We'll stop in two years." I asked, "Why?" They said, "Because we're working on our own copyright and patent laws and when they're in place to protect us then we'll protect you, but we're not going to protect you until we're ready." I went to the White House and I talked to the 41 domestic advisor of the president who was a friend of mine, Roger Porter. I said, "They said they'll quit in two years." He started to laugh and he says, "How am I going to tell the president they're only going to steal for two years?" I said, "Well, you know, the Japanese lied to you, the Chinese lied to you, everyone else lies to you, but these guys are at least telling you the truth." They withheld the sanctions against them. I represented this fellow by the name of Chachi. He was the first elected Prime Minister and after a couple years he got on an airplane with one of his generals by the name of Suchinda. The general pulled out his pistol and said, "Okay, Mr. Prime Minister, you're out and I'm in." He took over and executed Chachi right there with the airplane. Later on, Suchinda was trying to establish himself there and a lot of students rioted and picketed and so forth. About 1,500 of them just disappeared. I guess he had them killed and removed. When the king found out what happened he told him, "You're out. You can't be the prime minister here." Suchinda walked away. The king had a great deal of moral influence, although he had no legislative or statutory right to make those decisions. That was an interesting experiment. ROH: Did you ever have to travel to Thailand? RR: I traveled to Thailand once in a while, but my area was mostly in the Far East. I did a lot of traveling. In fact, someone asked me about traveling to Hong Kong and I looked it up and found I had 22 round-trips to Hong Kong in the 10 years of my passport. I did a lot there. 42 ROH: What about in Bangkok? RR: I did a lot in Bangkok. Later on, I represented a company in California called Sunrider International. I went to Bangkok, Malaysia, Indonesia and other countries to get permission for Sunrider to sell their product there and to convince them that our method of selling was legitimate. It was multi-level marketing and that was not common in the Far East, so we had to talk them into letting us do that. ROH: What happened next in your career? RR: That went on for several years. I represented people during the George Bush administration and did some part-time volunteer work for George Herbert Walker Bush in his campaign. I did some organizing in neighborhoods and in Washington, Oregon and here in the West. In fact, I was telling Annette that while I was involved with George Bush, he invited me to fly out with him to Boeing in Seattle. They were honoring the astronauts. They had the living astronauts there and I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to who was there, I never took any pictures or anything because I was there on a political trip. I think about a half a dozen of those guys and Neil Armstrong was there. They were given an award by Boeing Company for their exploits. They had an airplane like the one George Bush flew when he crashed into the ocean and he was rescued. He was really excited about that. He was looking at that and reminiscing. I was talking to Barbara Bush while he was doing that and she was excited for him because he hadn't seen one of those airplanes for a really long time. 43 ROH: Did you do any lobbying after that? RR: I did lobbying almost up to the time that I came home to Utah. Having been the Republican National Chairman, I had excellent contacts with Republicans and the Republican presidents. After Bill Clinton got elected, most of my contacts were gone. They were now Democratic contacts, so I figured that was a good time for me to go home. ROH: What year was it that you came home? RR: I think I came home about 1993. We were looking for a place to live here. I had a nice home in Washington and the value of it increased significantly. I had a profit on that property, but the tax laws were such at that time that if I sold my house, even though I bought another house I didn't get any kind of tax break on it and the government would have taken about $70,000 from me in taxes. I said, "Well, I'm not going to do that. I'll put the money into a new house." I bought a house here in South Ogden. I bought it without Annette seeing it. I came out and I saw this house and I walked in and it was a beautiful house on 46th and Jefferson, a big gray rock house. I walked in there and the neighbor was a real estate agent for Weber County. I walked in and looked in the foyer and I didn't even go through the house, it was just so beautiful and I was impressed so I said, "I'll take it." I gave him a check that night for earnest money. I said, "One condition, my wife has a week to decide whether she wants to come here." I called Annette and she didn't want to be bothered coming out. My daughter who lived here went to see it and she said, "Oh mom, you'll love the house." We agreed and we moved 44 into the house. We lived there until I started having a pretty serious heart problem and we couldn't keep up the land. The property was too big and complicated. We had to move, so we moved here into the condominiums. ROH: Tell me a little bit about your health problems you are referring to. RR: When I was living in Virginia I went out for a bike ride with my youngest son. As I pumped up a hill I had severe chest pains and I stopped at the top and I said, "Brian, I have to stop and rest." He wanted to go on so I told him he can go on but I had to rest. When I went home Annette saw me and she said, "Dick you look terrible, you need to go to a doctor." I said, "Well, I'll do it tomorrow." I was kind of gray and having a lot of pain. I waited until the next day and went to a doctor. They examined me and said, "You've had a major blockage of your arteries, but don't worry about it because the worst that could happen to you already happened." We thought that was pretty crazy to say that, so I went to a very famous cardiologist I had contact with as a result of some of my business. He ran a heart hospital in Phoenix. They tested me and said, "You've got some blockage." They gave me an angiogram and put in a stent. The stent lasted just one day and it was clogged up again. This was just a couple of days before Christmas. I said to the surgeon, "What do you recommend?" He said, "I think you ought to get a mechanical fix." He meant a bypass. I said, "Well, I ought to do it. This is a good time for me to do that. Business is slow in Washington. So when can you do it?" He said, "I can do it 45 tomorrow." I called Annette and said, "I'm not coming home for Christmas, I'm getting open-heart surgery tomorrow." Annette had Christmas in Virginia with the family before she came to see me. I remember after the operation when I looked in the mirror; I looked like my father looked on his death bed. My voice was just like him. Annette saw me and she started crying. That was my first open-heart surgery. I got over that for a while and later on I developed another problem. In fact, I'd been in Korea and worked out in the exercise room in the hotel in Korea and I thought, "I'm doing great." By the time I got to the airport I was having trouble, so that was the sign that I needed it again. Then, I ended up having open-heart surgery again here in Ogden with Dr. Cain at the McKay-Dee Hospital. That one was kind of interesting because I went to Salt Lake to the Beehive House and I was participating in a political meeting there. The pains became more severe and more severe. I didn't think I was going to make it home it was so bad. Immediately, I saw a sign that said "Hospital Next Right" so I took the road up to the hospital on Antelope Drive and went to the emergency ward and went in and told the lady, "I need some help." She said, "You look terrible. Sit down." They got me in a wheelchair and got me some oxygen and said, "You need to see your heart doctor tomorrow." I went to see him and that's when he said, "We'll do another operation on you." So I got another open-heart surgery here. The one I got in Phoenix I got about five or six bypasses. When I was here in Ogden I got a couple more. It seemed like every two years I would have problems. 46 Later on, I had a problem again and I saw the same doctors and they said, "We won't open you up, we've opened you up twice and we're not interested in performing another open-heart, we never know what we're going to get into." I was in serious trouble and nobody would touch me. I went to the LDS hospital in Salt Lake and they didn't want to do anything and McKay-Dee didn't want to do anything. My son got on the internet and found a vascular surgeon out in Daly City, California who was doing some experimental laser surgery. We decided to try that. I went out to see them and they acknowledged that I needed some surgery, but it was experimental and the FDA would not let them perform that surgery unless I had an independent doctor look at me beforehand to say, "If he doesn't get it he'll probably die." It was one of these compassionate things. They said, "There's no insurance, so if you come out here, you'll have to bring cash with you." The vascular surgeon's secretary or nurse negotiated with the hospital and everybody involved and I had to take $15,000 out to Daly City Hospital and they performed that surgery on me. It's called TMR Transmyocardial Revascularization. They open you up and pull the ribs apart and punch holes in your heart with a laser. They move the laser right up to the heart muscle and punch a hole and blood will start coming out and they rub their finger on it and it seals it over and they move over and punch another until they punch 25 holes, sew you up and that's it. I'll tell you, it was the best operation I've ever had. The impact was dramatic. I walked out of there in a couple of days and the only thing that was wrong with me was I hurt a 47 lot on the soft tissue. Otherwise, it was like I'd never had a heart problem. That lasted me for several years and we decided I could go on a mission. Annette and I volunteered to go on a mission and we were called to the Rochester, New York mission and that included Buffalo, Rochester and Palmyra. While I was there I had the problem again and I was hospitalized. When I got home everything looked pretty good. I ended up over here at Ogden Regional and had a few more stents put in. I got to a point where I was really in trouble and my doctor said, "I tried to go in there and put in another stent, but I couldn't even get my wire in the artery. I tried four times and then I gave it up. I have to tell you, you're in pretty serious shape. I don't think you'll live on too much. I'd give you about two months unless somebody can fix this and we don't have a doctor with the ability to fix this particular problem." It was the main descending right artery. ROH: What year was this? RR: It was about 2007. The doctor said, "Let me call Mayo, Johns Hopkins and Cleveland. If anybody could do it one of them can, but I don't even know if they'll touch you." Cleveland said, "Come on back and we'll look at it and decide what to do." So we went back there and we checked in on a Monday and they did all kinds of tests on me until Friday and I met with the surgeon and he said, "Mr. Richards, you're in pretty bad shape. You've got about two months and that's about all you can live with this. The only way we could avoid that is if we could fix it. We don't even want to try. We don't open up people three times, now you want 48 us to open you up the fourth time. We don't normally do that." I said, "Well, doctor, you're the best hospital in the country to do this, you're the best doctor and I'm a tough patient. I want you to do it." He started laughing and he said, "I guess if anybody can survive it, you probably could. I won't agree to do it, but stick around for a day or so and I'll talk to some other surgeons and we'll see if we can work something out. But you have no promise from me." On Sunday, we got the telephone call from them and they said, "If you're still willing to take the risk and give appropriate releases, we'll do it on Tuesday." They called back and said, "We've got a cancellation Monday, come on in Monday morning." So I went in Monday morning and that's when they did the operation on me. It was kind of interesting though, the doctor did not want to do it. I knew he didn't want to do it, so he was looking pretty glum when they were about to do it. They did twelve open-heart surgeries a day at that hospital. He looked kind of glum and I said, "Well, doctor, let me tell you something that will make you feel better. I'm a Mormon, and we have a scripture that says all men are given a gift and you have a gift to heal people and I have the gift to be healed." He gave me the thumbs up and shoved me in the operating room and that was it. He called my doctor here and said, "You know, if it hadn't been for his attitude, we would have never touched him. He had such a good attitude. We thought he had a reasonable chance to survive." After about a year my doctor said, "Write to this guy and tell him you're still alive, I think he'll be interested in hearing it." ROH: It's been five years later. Are you doing well now? 49 RR: I'm doing pretty well. I've got some problems, but I'm doing pretty well. ROH: So does this heart issue run in your family? RR: Both of my parents had strokes, so I presume it runs in the family. I've got seven sisters and none of them have the problem. I have one brother and he's had one little problem, but hasn't had a stent put in. I've ended up with nine bypasses, four open-heart surgeries, fourteen stents, and a pacemaker and I'm just ticking along until it's time to go. ROH: Were there any prominent surgeons here in Ogden that worked with you on this? RR: Doctor Cain at McKay-Dee Hospital and my cardiologist here is Doctor Diehl at Ogden Regional. He's put in about seven of my stents. He's not a surgeon, he's a cardiologist. So, that's my medical history. ROH: Let's back up here a little bit. You moved back here from Washington. Were you involved in law practice when you moved back to Ogden? RR: I still represented Sunrider Corporation out of California. I was their general council. I really wasn't though. I had the title, but I was more of a consultant to them and did routine corporate work for them. I did a little bit of other lobbying. I did not do legal work, but I did some lobbying for people. ROH: Were you lobbying for Utah constituents or people back in Washington? RR: Mostly back in Washington. 50 ROH: Can you tell me some of the people you were working with then? RR: I was working with people in the aerospace business and I had to lobby the congress for them to put a little pressure on Taiwan to buy a bunch of Boeing aircraft. Taiwan Airlines wanted it, but they had some guys in the Taiwan government that didn't want to spend the money although they had billions on hand. Our job was to build a little bit of fire under the head of the government in Taiwan so they'd buy the airplanes from us. We had a bad balance of trade. They sold us a lot more than we sold them. To sell them eight or ten 747's was a big deal and we promoted that pretty aggressively. I didn't do a whole lot more, I really was quite retired. ROH: Did you get involved with any groups in the community? RR: I got involved with some friends and we played golf once a week. I did a little work in politics. I helped Orrin Hatch and other Republican candidates. I didn't do a lot. I didn't have the energy to do a lot and I didn't feel safe to travel. I did do some traveling to visit my son in Alabama and my daughter in New York and stuff like that, but I've been retired. However, I'm writing some papers on how I think we can improve the presidential election system in America. ROH: I know you have written a lot. RR: I've had people ask me to represent them and I've turned them down because I couldn't be reliable. If I had to go someplace tomorrow at 10:00, I'm not sure I could do it because of my health. I wake up some mornings and I just can't operate. 51 ROH: I know about you're involvement with Weber State and you've indicated that you guest lecture at the University of Utah. Why don't you tell me a little bit about that? RR: My interest was primarily with Weber State. When I left Washington after having seen the legal profession and the lobbyist I thought, "We have a real problem with ethics in this country." I wanted to do something about ethics and I talked to Ann Milner who was president of the university. I embarrassed my wife in what I said, but I said, "Ann, you ought to teach ethics on the campus. If you do that, you'll be a hero and if you don't do it you'll be a bum." She said, "You mean I'll be a bum?" I said, "Yes." We laughed about that. We talked about ethics and the development people got in touch with me. He said, "If you want to do something about it, why don't you put up some money to start a foundation?" So I did. I put up quite a bit of money for it. We started our ethics program and what we've been doing is giving scholarships out. For the last couple of years we've given scholarships and I think last year we gave about $20,000. That is, $1,000 scholarships to 20 people. ROH: Tell me a little bit about who is receiving the scholarships. RR: We put on a program in conjunction with Garff Motors, who has a program for high school students. We decided to have each of the high schools in the area participate in a contest to write the best essay on how we can improve ethics in our community. The people who wrote the best essay in 20 high schools were given a $1,000 scholarship to Weber State. We've done that for two years and I 52 presume we will continue to do it. In the meantime, I decided to write a book. I started writing my book about what I had done and so on and I've got some good help from Gene Sessions up on the campus. It took me a long time. Writing a book is not an easy project. My wife had a lot of good notes. My secretary kept a lot of good notes. I had a lot of press releases. A lot of what I put in there I got from newspapers because most everything I did was written up in the press somewhere. The book is called, "Climbing the Political Ladder One Rung at a Time" That was designed primarily to encourage young people who like politics to get involved. Also, to tell them how I was able to go from nowhere to the National Chairmanship and that they can do the same thing. As I give talks around, one of the first questions everybody asks is, "How did you ever get to become the Republican National Chairman?" The press says, "He came from Podunk Utah. Where's Ogden?" They had no idea where Ogden was. I had no family that was previously involved in politics. My family didn't have money, so how did I get to be National Chairman? ROH: Do you think that in today's environment that something like that could happen to someone? RR: It would be pretty rare because I've never heard of it happening before either. ROH: I'm sure that's what a lot of the students say is that it's really remarkable. RR: Well, what I tell them is that if they are willing to do the grubby, unglamorous work like licking the envelopes, putting on the stamps and running the errands, 53 you can work yourself up that ladder. Candidates love volunteers and if you're a good volunteer, you will just keep progressing up the line. The guy that I hired to be the executive director of the party here when I was the national chairman was Dave Turner, a young kid out of Utah State that volunteered to drive a car for me when I was a candidate. He was just a young kid interested in politics and he was a driver. From there he just moved up the ladder until he ended up in a pretty good position. ROH: What is he doing now? RR: He worked for Hudd for a while and he's just trying to get some years in for government service and he's working for the national security people at the airport. ROH: Back to this ethics business. It's curious to me because I don't know of a lot of ethics programs at other schools, so what inspired you to create something related to ethics at Weber State? RR: Well, because we needed it. We really need it. When I talked to them, Ann said, "Talk to the head of the business department." I talked to him and he said, "Well, we devote an hour or two in the course of study on ethics." I said, "That's nothing. We ought to have a whole program of ethics." I really pushed it hard and Nathan Clark pushed me to put up the money to start it and that's what we've done. Every day you can read in the newspaper about some major breech of ethics on the part of a governor, a senator, or someone that works for the city— everybody. There's ethical breech all around us and a lot of times these kids 54 don't know any better. I've seen surveys where they ask kids if they have ever cheated in school. Seventy-five percent of them say they've cheated and when you ask why they say, "Well, everybody else is cheating and I'm competing with them. If I have to compete with them then I guess I have to cheat." I thought, "We need to start teaching them a little bit earlier." If we can get a hold of these kids in high school and get them involved in ethics, it's going to a make a difference. Someone asked me, "How are you going to measure success?" I said, "I don't know that you can, but somewhere along the line you're going to touch somebody and that's going to improve their attitude on ethics." That's what it's all about. It's a difficult thing. It's prodding all the time and trying to get people to buy scholarships for the kids, but we have had some experience from these young kids that won the scholarship that say, "I could not have gone to college without that scholarship. That made all the difference in the world to me." We give it to them not because they are rich or good students, but because they have the best ideas about ethics. I still spend a lot of time and effort on this ethics stuff. ROH: I think that's great. RR: However, I do have a complaint against the university on this and I've talked to a lot of these guys that raise big chunks of money. I say, "Why don't you tell the people that are giving to earmark some of that money for ethics?" The university doesn't want to do it because they want the money to go into the building or whatever they do. There's no reason why we can't tell a guy that's going to give a million dollars that $50,000 of that can go into ethics, but the university has their 55 own program and it isn't channeling the ethics program. We're getting the new president soon and I'm going to be approaching him. Ann has been supportive, but nothing has happened other than holding those meetings. We had the former governor speak to our group a year ago and we gave out all these scholarships and there wasn't one word in the press about it. Standard Examiner never wrote one word about it. We had the pictures taken of all these kids that got scholarships and we were hoping they'd get their picture in the paper and they did not. I called Doug at the Standard and I asked if he would run a story on the ethics program. He said, "Yes. When is it?" I said, "It was last night." They did not even know what night it was and I said, "You guys at the university and the public relations department failed, you should have seen that the press was there." Again, this is the second year they didn't do it. We've decided that we've got to have a public relations guy on our board. It's their job to get the press. ROH: Is there anything nationally that you're aware of happening with ethics? RR: No. It was kind of interesting when Jon Huntsman was the governor, he came up when they named the Richard Richards Institute. Governor Huntsman and Jake Garn were there and they named it. Huntsman said, "You're the only university around here that's promoting ethics. I'm going to support you. I'm going to help you." Well, he hasn't. I sent him an email when he was over in China and said, "You said you wanted to help us I thought it meant you were going to give us some money or get other people to give some money." We hate to have to go out 56 and grub money a dollar at a time to give these scholarships. Zion's Bank has been a big supporter. They have given us $12,000 each year for two years. That was very helpful to us. The university has paid for the meals when we have the banquet and that's about all the university has done. It really hasn't caught on yet. ROH: It takes some time. How many years has it been now? RR: I've been working on it for about three or four years, but we've been giving out scholarships for the last two. Alan Hall is a big money raiser for the school. I went to Alan and said, "Alan, why don't you tell these guys that are giving money that they can earmark some for ethics." He said he would do it, but I don't think he has. However, in the next week or so that committee meets again and I'm going to go back to Alan Hall and say, "Look, give us some money." In fact, because he writes this business article and I told him, "Alan, why don't you write an article about ethics?" He wrote a paragraph about it out of probably 30 or 40 columns. We got two inches referring to ethics. We're going to have to press it. ROH: I think it would be good for you to write a column too because you've got more experience. RR: I've written some columns only they've been political columns. ROH: What do you think about ethics in politics these days? RR: Well, politics today is meaner than it has been in a long time. When Jake Garn decided he didn't want to run again and Howard Baker from Tennessee, the 57 senator from Colorado said, "It isn't fun anymore. It used to be fun, but it is just mean now. Your colleagues are mean, your constituents are mean, the press is mean and it just isn't fun." Senator Baker told me, "If I knew how good it was on the outside, I would have quit the senate a long time ago." It's just a bad environment and it is getting worse. You can go back in history and you can see even in George Washington's time they slandered one another, but we slander them day after day in the press that gets to millions of readers every day. That's why it appears so bad. ROH: How do you inspire the youth? Let's say these high school kids that you're helping to go to university. How do you inspire them to change when what they're seeing is so slanderous? RR: We've made a couple of attempts to do that. We were assigned by the governor to sit on the committee to tell how to improve elections in the state. I got the students up at Weber to write a program on it and we submitted it to the governor. We also got one on ethics and what the ethics reform ought to be. Our kids on the campus wrote a program on how to establish an ethics program in the state of Utah and the legislation didn't pay any attention to it. We gave it directly to the governor and we gave it to legislatures and we gave it to the press. Everybody saw it but the legislature pre-empted everybody and wrote their puny little ethics reform which is nothing. 58 ROH: I was wondering if that had anything to do with it. I remember hearing about ethics reform a little over a year ago, so I was wondering if that is just one of those things that will take more time. RR: Yes, it will take time beyond my time to get, but whatever we do to get it going is worth it. Like I said, if you ask, "How do you measure your success?" There are no definitive measures, but if you touch the heart and mind of a half a dozen kids, that's good. Out of our first year we had one of our students that got an ethics scholarship and they worked on our committee. They went to Washington to be an intern at the White House for Obama. Another one went to work for congressman Bishop. The kids did get involved and they're doing some stuff. I can pick out two or three kids that I know we've had an impact on and will do something in politics. As I look back, when I was party chairman in Utah, Karl Rove was one of my interns. I didn't even know him. I didn't pay attention to him at that time. Another one was this guy Dave Hanson, who runs Orrin Hatch's campaign and I had lunch with him yesterday. Another one named Alan Peterson who did a nationwide organizational program for Richard Nixon and we had some guys from Ogden participating. Alex Hurtado, he was one of my best political friends and he got involved in this national organization for Nixon. I've seen a handful of people that have become involved and have been very successful, but it's got to be more. ROH: Is there anything else you'd like to add about ethics? 59 RR: There is one thing that's happening. Isaac Goeckeritz is putting together a film on ethics to promote the ethics up here. He has interviewed Jake Garn, Richard Wirthlin, Mr. Mack, the governor, and a whole lot of people talking about ethics in their business. Bob Garff talks about the ethics of his father in the automobile business. They're talking about ethics and he's preparing it and his wife said he is coming close and maybe by Christmas he will have it done and it will go on the air at KUED. I think it will be good enough that it will open up a lot of other things. Another guy that's in that is Dan Jones and he talks about ethics in the polling business. ROH: That will be good to see. Isaac Goeckeritz, for future reference, is a local historian, film documenter, a Weber State graduate, and one of Richard's relatives. RR: We were involved with the one on the Union Station, he did the one on the hill out in Uintah, "The U," he did one on homeless vets and now he's doing one on ethics. He's also doing other stuff. KUED loves him, they say he's got a great deal of talent and they're going to keep using him. ROH: Today is September 26, 2012 and we are in the home of Dick Richards. Present are Rebecca Ory Hernandez and Dick Richards. We are going to continue your oral history. The last time we spoke we talked a lot about the Ethics Institute at Weber State, so today I would like to talk a little more about present day and what is happening in your life. What are your involvements here in Ogden and in 60 the state related to politics? I know that you have been a guest on a few T.V. shows, so why don't you tell me a little bit about that? RR: I was on two Ted Capner shows, that's the Sunday afternoon broadcast. The first one after he read my book he invited me to come and talk to him and we talked about the things that are in the book. You've seen many of them. The other discussion we had just a week or so ago was on how we can cut down the cost of presidential campaign. This year's presidential campaign will probably cost 4 billion dollars. Each one of the candidates will raise about a billion dollars for their campaign and the political parties will make another half a billion. Then, 527 committees, or so-called super-packs, will each raise about a half a billion or more and that will put us at least $4 billion for the presidential campaign. The point that people don't understand is that the Supreme Court has rules that anyone can get involved in a campaign and spend all the money they want provided they do not coordinate with the candidate. All these committees raise money and you know what their message is going to be, they don't have to say vote for Obama or vote for Romney, you can tell what they're promoting. They get involved in it and that will bring the cost to over $4 billion. My proposal was that in order to prevent this limit the time, since you can't limit the money. Reduce the time of the campaign and allow the candidates to do their exploratory effort up until about the 15th of April in the election year. By the 15th of April they have to announce whether they will or will not be a candidate. If they say they will be a candidate, from that day on they can start raising money. They'll have to go through the primaries of the various states from that time before November. 61 If you're in a state with a caucus convention like we have, you might have your first caucus about three months after the candidate announces. We'd have the county conventions and the state conventions and if you had to have a primary you'd push the campaign between the Republican and the Democrat clear back to about August of September. They can't raise or spend a billion dollars between September and November, so it will really force the whole process to slow down to eliminate cost. Romney had been running for about 6 or 8 years and Obama has been running for 3 and it's just boring, wasteful and non-productive. The conventions and the debates they have are really about nothing and they reduce themselves to just petty criticism of the other guy. If you had only a three month campaign period they'd talk about what they want to do. They'd talk about the positive aspects of their campaign. ROH: Who profits from all of this money? RR: I made that point on television. The only ones that profit are the television stations, the radio, the newspaper, the campaign managers, and the advertising firms. The public doesn't profit by it. It's the guys that make money out of the campaign. Professional fundraisers get a percentage of the money they raise, the television people get money for everything they run, the campaign managers and the public relations people get 15 percent of what they spend on television. Just imagine a $200 million campaign on television and the guy is going to make about $30 million for putting the ads on the air. That's a big deal. ROH: So the candidates don't actually make any of the money they are raising? 62 RR: No, the candidates don't get it. It's those that are in the campaign business that get the money. Nobody likes to give it, but when you've got a campaign and they keep hitting you up for money, you feel the pressure and you make contributions. Everybody but the guys that make money on the campaign would like to see it shorter. ROH: Do you think that will happen in our lifetime? RR: It could, but I don't know whether it will or not. There has been a drive in the past for regional primaries or a national primary. If we had regional primaries, that would help a lot because then the candidate would have to talk to all of the American people instead of just eight states. Where they are now they go to Illinois and they talk about automobile manufacturing because that's the big issue there. They go to Ohio and they talk about the agricultural subsidies. It really isn't a national campaign, it is a series of little local interest campaigns. That's not good for the country. ROH: Are there any other shows that you've been featured on other than the one that you just mentioned? RR: No, I've been on his show a couple of times and I speak once in a while at the Hinckley Institute. I get invited more to the University of Utah to speak than I do Weber State, but I do participate on the campuses and I've been asked to talk to civic groups in town. My health is such that I have been turning them down. I don't know whether or not I'm going to feel well enough to do it. I just say, "No, I don't do that anymore." 63 ROH: Are you doing any local speeches during this campaign? RR: I write down suggestions for the candidates to send to them and they never follow those. What happens is that when a guy gets to be the campaign manager doesn't want other people telling him what to do. They look at guys like me and say, "Oh those guys are over the hill, they don't know the campaigns are different today." They don't pay any attention to us. They're wrong. I found my way to the national chairmanship by doing a good campaign on the state and local level and then on the national level. The principles of running the program we run is the same today as it was 20, 30, or 50 years ago. The average American has nothing to do with the campaign. They don't know the candidate. They don't meet the candidates and they don't even know who they are. If you put on a program where you give them the opportunity to participate in the campaign they're flattered by it. They want to do it. What we had done over the years was recruit people. For Richard Nixon, we set up a telephone operation and called people in the various neighborhoods and said, "I'm a volunteer for Richard Nixon, we think he's uniquely qualified to be president of the United States. We're doing what we can, will you help us?" A lot of people say yes and ask what they can do. We send them brochures and ask them to go door-to-door and tell the people about Richard Nixon and give him their personal endorsement. We know it flatters people and they think their job is very important. 64 Many years ago, one guy up in Portland called up after we went through the primary and said, "I did my work in the primary, but I'm 82 years old and legally blind. I don't think I can do it in a general election. So, you better get someone to take my place." He thought that the little role he had in the neighborhood was so important that if he didn't do it, there would be a problem so we'd have to get somebody to take his place. T The campaign chairman doesn't make any money if you do this volunteer work and neither does the television or anyone else, this is a very quiet campaign. The only person that makes any money on this is the guy that rents you the building and maybe the telephone company that has telephones from it. ROH: That's interesting. Are you doing any other kinds of present day consulting? RR: No, I'm actually retired. I'm helping a couple of little businesses, but I'm basically retired. I'm one of the 47 percent that's living off of the government program called Social Security. ROH: Can you share a little bit about the businesses you're helping? RR: I've been helping a company that makes a gasoline additive that reduces the pollution of your automobile and increases your gas mileage. Interestingly enough, my role is to get government people to look at it and try it out. I have found that people that work for the government in the motor pools don't care if you save money on gasoline. It's not out of their pocket. You can give it to them and ask them to try it out, but they don't do it. We talk about the need to increase 65 mileage and reduce pollution, but the guy that's running the motor pool at the state of Utah, Salt Lake and Ogden don't care. ROH: Is it corn-based? RR: No, it's not a food-based. It's made of algae. It does not affect the corn prices or the wheat prices. I use it in my car and I get five more miles per gallon in the city and on the highway. ROH: That's fascinating. RR: It's just a little tablet you put in the gas tank. It looks like a jelly bean and when you fill your gas tank you drop it into the tank. ROH: Is it available on the market? RR: Yes, but it's only on the internet. You can't sell it at the gas stations because it cuts down their gas sales they don't want that. I've got to give my wife credit that she put up with all of the things I've done and all of the moving. I have dragged her and my kids around the country time and time again and they've never complained. I think they've had a great benefit from doing it, but at the same time a lot of people complain if they've had to pick up and move every year or two. We never lived in a house for more than 10 years until we were 13 years in that house in McLean, Virginia and that's the longest we've ever been in a house. AR: Actually, we've been here now about as long as we've been there. It wasn't easy, I'll tell you. 66 ROH: Annette, you do history, right? AR: Yes. I've been doing that. I went to a meeting in Salt Lake on this new family search and they asked how long people have been researching and I'd been researching the longest. Over 50 years. I started when I was pretty young. Our oldest daughter was three months old when I got involved. ROH: Okay. Thanks Annette. Let's talk a little about present day politics, just a couple of quick questions. Are you involved at all in present day politics as far as on the national level? RR: Once in a while a candidate will call me and ask if he can sit down with me for a while and talk about the campaign and I give him some ideas. Otherwise, I'm really not involved. I was called by the campaign chairman for Governor Rick Perry and asked if I would be the Utah chairman for Perry and I said, "We've got to get passed John Huntsman first." I couldn't work for Perry as long as John Huntsman was in the race, but if Huntsman was out I'd be glad to help Perry out. I think he was a good candidate except he can't talk and answer questions. ROH: Other than Perry, are there any other names? RR: Well, I gave a little bit of advice to Hatch's opponent, but I said, "Orrin is a good friend of mine. I can't tell you how to run against him, but I can tell you what I think the issues ought to be." I spent an hour with Dan Lillianquist and I thought he was a good candidate, but he ran a bad campaign. ROH: What makes a bad campaign? 67 RR: If the campaign doesn't connect with the public and the voters it's a bad campaign. What you've got to do is talk about a message that they want to hear about and you have to have a good point of view on it. That's what these polls are about. They're polling all the time, "How do you feel about immigration? How do you feel about this or that?" The candidate tailors their message to appeal to those people. Unfortunately, it gets to be just a pandering deal to them. I respect Jon Huntsman because he said, "I'm not going to go to Iowa because I'm against ethanol subsidies. If I got to Iowa they're just going to "boo" me and I won't make any headway there, so I'm not going to go pander to them." I respect him for taking that position. Most of the candidates will go to one place and pander to them and it's just not healthy for the country and I think it's too bad. I'm 80 years old and my health isn't good, so I deliberately took myself out of a lot of this. I did join the tea party and I'll tell you why I like it. Number one, this is middle class America, the silent majority starting to make a little bit of noise. They're not looking for something special for themselves; they just don't want things special given to everybody else. They say, "We've got to cut down our spending." It isn't a question of raising more money, it's spending less money. When they go out and they have a rally of 15,000 people, there's no paraphernalia on the ground or a mess. They don't create a problem. It's clean, it's nice and these are good American citizens voicing their opinion. I read where people say, "The tea party is fading and they are not going to be all that critical in the campaign." They're kidding themselves. The tea party is alive and well and they will be very active in the campaigns when it comes closer to election time. 68 They don't campaign all year long, but they will be out working and they will have an impact. ROH: I think it's interesting that today that we have a new party. I think most people would find that interesting historically to look back and see the beginnings of this new party. Thank you for sharing. RR: One of the things that I propose in election reform is that they allow all parties to campaign in primary elections. Let them all get into the campaign and you'll wash out those that aren't really going to be a contender and you're going to end up with two or three. Maybe there would be three candidates in November, but there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe the guy that wins the presidency only had 47 percent of the population, but that's okay. Other people ought to have the right to voice their point of view and have the American people hear it. ROH: I had a young political science student ask me a question that they wanted me to ask you. He said that a lot of his friends are just not interested in politics at all. I would say between the ages of 19 and 26 are the age of his friends right now. He wanted me to ask you why they should be interested or get involved in politics because their perception of everything they see is negative. RR: That's unfortunate. A lot of people are turned off by the negative campaigns. I am. I'd get tired of listening to them. In fact, I asked Ted Capner if he watched all of the debates and he said, "No." I said, "Neither did I." I couldn't watch them all because they were not productive. I'd tell these young kids, "If you are really interested in politics, find a candidate that you like who's telling the story the way 69 you like it and join that campaign. If you get involved in it you will see your way through all of these things. You'll see how productive it can be." When you're only 19 years old, you're not thinking about retirement, medical expenses, or high taxes. You just haven't been out in the real world yet. As soon as you get a job and get your paycheck and you find out how much money was taken out for social security and worker's compensation and all these other things you think, "Hey, I thought I was getting $200 and I got $150." That shocks them and that's the eye-opener to these people. It kind of goes along with what Winston Churchill said, "When you're 19 years old, if you're not a liberal you've got no heart, but when you're 55 years old, if you're not a conservative you've got no brains." ROH: Right. That was what he asked, "How does it impact my life? All I'm trying to do is survive." He's actually got a wife and a child. He's working, going to school and he's involved on campus in leadership. He said, "I don't see how I can even be a blip on the radar of what's going on nationally." RR: Well, that's a story I tell in my book. I started out as the junior Republican chairman at Weber Junior College in 1952. In 1980, I was the Republican National Chairman. I climbed up. President Reagan said, "He's had every job on the way up. This is the first chairman I know that's worked his way through the state and national chairmanship positions." There's opportunity out there for these guys and in order to really understand it, I think you have to get involved in a campaign. The guy who's going to school and has a wife and kids says, "I'm 70 worried about my health insurance and if we have another baby we can't afford the cost of it." Then insurance becomes interesting to him. After a while, he gets hurt on the job or he gets sick, then social security, Medicare, and disability becomes interesting to him. These things become interesting as he grows older and he's facing that proposition. Young people don't look that far ahead. They think they're invincible and indestructible. They just don't see the problems down the road. ROH: Right. So let's talk a little bit about your family. I know you've got lots of children. RR: I've got five. ROH: That's a good-sized family. Are any of them involved in politics? RR: No, that is the interesting thing. My oldest son is a professor of philosophy at the University of Alabama. His name is Richard Albert Richards. He was named after Annette's father. He started out to be a dancer professionally and he danced around the world as a ballet dancer. He was quite good, but not good enough to be a star, and if you're not a star you can't make a living doing it. He finally decided that it wasn't for him and he went back to school to study philosophy. When he went back to school, he took the college ACT test and he got in the 98th percentile and he was offered a full fellowship at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. He got his degree there. He was a very good student and he had very good recommendations by the number one philosopher there and he went around to some of the colleges to seek employment and he ran into people that 71 said, "White men need not apply, we're going to hire a minority or a woman. So don't bother to apply." My oldest daughter, Julie Dockter, is married to a real estate salesman and they have four sons who are all doing very well. One of them is a businessman doing a lot of business with China and has made a lot of money. Another one is a medical doctor and his name is Dr. Dockter. Another one is in college studying something in physical sciences and the other one is a computer expert at Novell in Provo. My next daughter is married to a lawyer who's practicing law in New York. She's interested in politics, but she doesn't do much of it. She reads a lot and she gets involved a little bit but she has three kids and teaches early morning seminary and some other things. Her name is Jan Stevenson. My next daughter is Amy Hartvigsen and her husband is a landscape architect down in Alpine and they have four boys. The oldest is now on a mission. They have really talented kids. There is a lot of talent around my grandkids. My youngest son, Brian, works for the state of Utah in Utah Workplace. That's my family. I have ten grandchildren and eleven great grandchildren and four of those great grandchildren are part Chinese. My grandson, Chris Dockter married a Chinese girl from Taiwan. 72 ROH: I couldn't help but notice that you have a lot of art hanging in your home. RR: It's all family art. My father was the artist. ROH: Other people in your family are also artistically inclined. RR: Yes. My brother is an artist and he taught art at Dennison University in Dallas. My son, Rich, painted that big picture on the wall there. On the wall up there I've got paintings of my father, my brother, my daughter, and my son. We've all got a painting up there. My father is the best artist of the bunch. I have sisters that are very good. I think you saw the picture of the dogs in my bedroom. One of my sisters did that. There are a number of good artists in the family. The etching above the piano was by my brother. That big picture there is done by my son, Rich. The Abraham Lincoln was given to me by the Republican Party of Utah when I completed my term as state chairman. The star is a little thing that Richard Nixon gave out when he was elected president. The eagle is from the inauguration of Reagan and Bush. Geronimo is one that I just purchased. A friend of mine, Jay Taggert, former superintendent of the schools for Utah gave me the Teddy Roosevelt. ROH: Is there anything else that I might not have asked you that you would like to address? RR: I tell people jokingly that I used to be a genius, but now I'm just very bright. As a result of my heart operations, I have lost some mental acuity and I'm not as sharp as I used to be. My memory isn't as good. I have bad days so I'm limited. As a former National Chairman, I always have access to a seat at the national 73 conventions. They have one for former chairmen and I couldn't go so I asked them if my nephew could use my credentials so he went to the last convention. I went to every convention from 1968 until George W. Bush ran. I did not go then, but I went through Nixon, Reagan, and H. W. Bush. I've been to a lot of conventions. ROH: Is your nephew involved in politics now? RR: He's a lobbyist so he's a little bit involved in politics, but he likes to get involved. He has worked for candidates in the past. I don't have any children that wanted to be lawyers or wanted to be in politics. I wouldn't encourage them to be lawyers because I'm unhappy with the profession now. ROH: I was going to ask you if you encouraged them at all when they were younger to go into law or politics since they were living in Washington. RR: My girls were more enamored by living in Washington than my sons. They loved going to the White House and going to Kennedy Bunk Port and going to the parades and inaugurals and so on. They really enjoyed that. Everybody really loved being in that historical place, including me. ROH: Are there any stories about Ogden that many people might not know about or historical stories that would be just interesting to share? RR: Did you see the film that Isaac did on 25th Street? There is some historical stuff that I'm involved in on that 25th Street thing. When I went to law school, I drove from Ogden to Salt Lake and I had a couple of people that paid me to ride with 74 me. One of them was Annabelle Weakly and the other was Jane Larson. She was about 70 years old and she wanted to go back to school. She graduated from Weber College when she was 70 or 72. I got to know both of them fairly well. After I got out of law school I wanted to try lawsuits and I wanted to go to trial. If you want trial experience as a young lawyer you're not going to get it in a civil case. I went to the judges and said, "I want some trial experience so give me your criminals that don't have any money that are in jail and can't make bond." We didn't have a public defender system then. Over a period of one year they gave me 10 criminals and I tried the 10 felonies to a jury. I got 8 acquittals out of my 10 and that put me in business. I had lots of criminal business. In fact, it was too much. I ended up trying to get rid of it because I got tired of the criminals, but that's where I got my experience in the court room. I'll give you a quote from a guy if it won't sound politically incorrect, "One day I was walking along the street and this black guy came up to me and said, are you Mr. Richardson Richardson?" I said, "Well, I guess I am." He said, "Are you the man that represented Copeland Griffin?" I said, "I guess that's right." He said, "Well, let me shake your hand. You must be good. He was the biggest crook in town." Two of my defenses were for one guy and I won both of the cases and this impressed those in the black community. All my life I've been interested in politics, not for the sake of winning, but for the sake of helping the country. I've been concerned about the country. I see things that I don't think are right and I don't know whether I told you this story but when I was pretty new in the practice, we saw some misconduct and what I call 75 criminal activity on the part of elected officials in Weber County. I was instrumental in getting a grand jury called and ended up putting a sheriff in jail and some other things. These guys were doing a lot of things wrong. ROH: No, you didn't mention that? Who was the Sheriff? RR: It was LeRoy Hadley. I was representing a guy by the name of Ralph Anderson. He was a federal prisoner being housed in Ogden and waiting for his appeal in the tenth circuit. He appeared to have the run of the jail. Every time I'd go up to jail to see another client I'd see him hanging around. He wasn't in a cell, he was hanging around. One of these guys that had tattoos on his arm and had a pack of cigarettes rolled up in his shirt sleeve tried to hire me to represent him and he wanted an appeal to the tenth circuit. He was in jail for burglarizing a couple of post offices. He and his brother-in-law would drive a particularly adapted automobile up to these small post offices, break in, wheel the safe out and put it in the trunk of the car and drive up into the mountains and blow it up with dynamite and take out the money orders and postage stamps. He said, "Dick, I'll hire you. I'll give you $10,000 to represent me. I've got $60,000 stolen in postal money orders up in Pocatello. I can sell those for $20,000 and I'll give you half of it." I said, "No thanks. Not interested." Anyway, as time went on I talked to the guy and one day his wife came to me and said, "Mr. Richards, they're going to let Andy out of jail again this weekend. I'm afraid if he gets caught out of jail when he's supposed to be in jail the sheriff will say he escaped and he'll get an extra 5 or 10 years punishment." 76 When I found out they were letting him out of jail I said, "I've got to tell the judge. I am an officer of the court so I have to tell Judge Anderson, the federal judge in Salt Lake, what's happening here." I called the judge and he said, "You ought to call Judge Ritter." I said, "Judge, I don't like Judge Ritter and he doesn't like me so I'm telling you. I've now done my duty." As a result of what happened here a grand jury was called and the grand jury heard the evidence that the sheriff would let him out on weekends and he'd go burglarize someplace and share what he stole with the sheriff. The grand jury said to contact him and ask him to give some specifics about one of the burglaries that only the burglar would know. We'll find out if he's telling the truth. He said, "I knocked off the Red Pantry Café on the corner of Ogden Avenue and 25th Street. I got in by kicking in the back door with my foot and I left a shoe print on the door so I had to get rid of the shoes afterward. When I went in I got into the cigarette machines, I got into jukeboxes and I stole the stuff out of there. One thing that was very peculiar is when I got the jukebox money, there were a lot of quarters with red fingernail polish on them. I don't know what that meant, but that's what I took." They called in the man that owned the Red Pantry Café and said, "What about the money in the jukebox? Is there anything unusual about it?" he said, "Oh yeah, part of those quarters are what I call show quarters. I put red fingernail polish on the ones I put in so I get them back. When somebody saw other people put in for music they'd play music. They were show coins. I got to keep them and 77 the guy that owned the music company would take all the others." That was proof that my guy stole the money out of the jukebox. Finally, they put the sheriff on trial. When it was known that the sheriff let the guy out, his attorney said, "Sheriff, isn't it true that the reason you let him out was to take him to your home and show him what good law abiding citizens lived like and to get a little spirituality in your life?" The guy said, "No, that isn't true." The lawyer asked the question, "Well, why did you let him out?" He said, "Greed, Mr. Alsup. Greed." They convicted the sheriff and the sheriff was put in jail down in Davis County. ROH: What year was this? RR: I don't know what year it was. I went back to Washington shortly after that. The sheriff came up to me one time when I was alone and said, "Richard, you son of bitch. I'll get you for this." He threatened me, but I didn't say anything about it. He went to jail and some of the other public officials lost their jobs and it kind of cleaned up the community. The interesting part of that is that one of the guys that we had as our plaintiff in our action against the county officials was the lieutenant governor's father. He ran a janitorial supply place in Ogden on 25th Street. His name was George Bell. His son is now the Lieutenant governor. It took courage on the part of his father to act as a plaintiff in the case. It was a taxpayer's lawsuit filed against him because they were crooked. The

Issue 58.4 of the Review for Religious, July/August 1999. ; Review for Religious is a forum for shared reflection on the lived experience of all who ~nd that the church's rich heritages of spirituality support their personal and apostolic Christian lives, The articles in the journal are meant to be informative, practical; historical, or inspirational, written from a theological or spiritual or sometimes canonical point of view. Review for Religious (ISSN 0034-639X) is published bi-monthly at Saint Louis University by the Jesuits of the Missouri Province. Editorial Office: 3601 Lindell Boulevard ¯ St. Louis, Missouri 63108-3393. Telephone: 314-977-7363 ¯ Fax: 314-977-7362 E-Mail: foppema@slu.edu Manuscripts, books for review, and correspondence with the editor: Review for Religious ¯ 3601 Lindell Boulevard ¯ St. Louis, MO 63108-3393. Correspondence about the Canonical Counsel department: Elizabeth McDonough OP P.O. Box 29260; YVashington, D.C. 20017 POSTMASTER Send address changes to Review for Religious ° P.O. Box 6070 ¯ Duluth, MN 55806. Periodical postage paid at St. Louis, Missouri, and additional mailing offices. See inside back cover for information on subscription rates. ©1999 Review for Re!igious Permission is herewith granted to copy any material (articles, poems, reviews) contained in this issue of Review for Religious for personal or internal use, or for the personal or internal use of specific library clients within the limits outlined in Sections 107 and/or 108 of the United States Copyright Law. All copies made under this permission ~nust bear notice of the source, date, and copyright owner on the first page. This permission is NOT extended to copying for commercial distribu-tion, advertising, institutional promotion, or for the creation of new collective works or anthologies. Such permission will only be considered on written application to the Editor, Review for Religious. for religious Editor Associate Editors Canonical Counsel Editor Editorial Staff Adviso.ry Board David L. Fleming sJ Clare Boehmer ASC Philip C. Fischer sJ Elizabeth McDonough OP Mary Ann Foppe Tracy Gramm James and Joan Felling Kathryn Richards FSP Joel Rippinger OSB Bishop Carlos A. Sevilla $3 David Werthmann CSSR Patricia Wittberg SC Christian Heritages and Contemporary Living JULY-AUGUST1999 ¯ VOLUME58 ¯ NUMBER4 contents 342 feature U.S. Catholic Re!igious and Slavery: A Seldom Told Story James Fitz SM examines the significant 19th-century issue of social justice and human transformation, the story of slavery, and how relig!ous in the United States were involved. 364 372 witness Edith Stein: St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross OCD Rita E. Goldman reviews the life of Edith Stein and points out ways she models a contemporary holy life. At Home by the S~a: ' Isabel Green SCN and the House of Prayer Experience C. Walker Golla~ PhD tells the story of Sister Isabel SCN and her influence in the development .of the Hou~se of Prayer movement for spiritual renewal. 384 393 consecrated life Vita Consecrata and the Anthropology of the Vows Dennis J. Billy CSSR develops five basic anthropological dimensions of human existence for a more thorough understanding of the vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience. Authority among Religious in South Asia Nihal Abeyasingha CSSR explores some of the issues dealing with the religious tradition of authority and obedience within different cultural contexts. 403 424 discerning Becoming a Nun: A General Model of Entering Religious Life Barbara Zajac proposes from her sociological research that personal contact and visibility are key elements in fostering vocations to consecrated life. Discerning Community Leadership Mary Benet McKinney OSB presents the advantages and the difficulties that are involved in a community's use of the discernment process. departments 340 Prisms 429 Canonical Counsel: Admission to an Institute of Consecrated Life 435 Book Reviews July-August 1999 prisms In this year dedicated to God the Father, we would do well to bring into sharper focus to whom we pray. For the sake of our prayer life, we might examine how our praying is shaped by Jesus' teaching the Our Father. What are the ordinary elements that we as Christ's disciples appropriately bring to our day-to-day way of l~raying? Our Father Our prayer begins with our, not my, "hello" to One who has loved us into life, the One we call upon as the "God of our life," "Giver of all good gifts," "Abba" (Jesus' love word). who art in heaven One so close, so totally present to us, and yet not in the world of our control--beyond the sphere of limitation and death. hallowed be thy name You are holy--totally other than us; you are God, and we are not. It is your world; we are your creation. Awe-filled, we say "Holy your name!" thy kingdom come For us and for the world, we want what you want. Why? because it is out of love you create and you act and you seek out. thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven May your desires become our desires and so let us act with you--as ones who love. give us this day our daily brei~d Daily let us be with you and work with you for all that sustains our life with Review for Religious and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us There are times we pay no heed to you; we become so caught up in our own way of finding life and in our own way of seeking love. Forgive us for receiving your love so awkwardly, sometimes so grudgingly. Help us to act like you in offering forgiveness to others who hurt us in any way. and lead us not into temptation You know our limits; please be gentle with us in your unquenchable love. Even more we ask you to be strong within us as together we face the things that might make us less than the human persons you call us to be. but deliver us from evil We know that you are always a saving God, and we stand always in your presence as ones who need saving--so we believe, so we trust, so we love. Moved by Christ's Spirit, our praying may take shape in any and all of these reflections of Jesus' way of teaching us to pray. So we pray in Jesus' name. There are some changes within the Review for Religious staffing that I would like all of you, our readers, to know about. Miss Jean Read is retiring after serving some twenty-three years after her first "retirement" from a variety of Jesuit works. Sister Regina Siegfried ASC is returning to full-time teaching and student counseling after six years on our editorial staff. We remain grate-ful for their lasting contributions. We welcome Sister Clare Boehmer ASC to the editorial staff, who assumes special care for the Reviews department. David L. Fleming sJ P.S. To honor Jean Read, who has shouldered a major respon-sibility for the publishing of all the books in the Best of the Review series, we are publishing a new book, Life through a Poet's Eyes, The Best of the Review - 6. See the insert page at the end of this issue. L___2,4.1__ JAMES FITZ U.S. Catholic Religious and Slavery: A Seldom Told Story feature For religious of the United States, actions for social jus-tice and human transformation have become a signifi-cant aspect of our mission since the promulgation of Gaudium et spes at the conclusion of the Second Vatican Council. "The joys and the hopes, the griefs and anxi-eties of the people of- this age, especially those who are poor or in any way afflicted, these are the joys and the hopes, the griefs and anxieties of the followers of Christ" (§1). The (all to social justice and human transforma-tion was notably addressed to religious in a 1981 docu-ment from the Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes (SCRIS) titled "Religious and Human Advancement" (Le scelte evangdiche). l This call was reaf-firmed most recently by the Synod on Consecrated Life in 1994 and the postsynodal apostolic exhortation Vita consecrata (see §82) in 1996. In June 1997 Representative Tony Hall, Democrat from Dayton, Ohio, and a bipartisan group of eleven members of the United States House of Representatives introduced a one-sentence resolution that the U.S. Congress apologize to African Americans, "whose ances-tors suffered as slaves under the Constitution and laws of the United States until 1865:."2 Thi~ resolution, a James Fitz SM returns to our pages after a busy twelve-year absence. His address is Office of Campus Ministry; University of Dayton; 300 College Park; Dayton, Ohio 45469. Review for Religious response to President Clinton's initiative to heal racial division in this country, began a national debate over whether a national ~apol-ogy for slavery is necessary or useful. The recent movie Amistad has heightened awareness of this issue. In this article I examine this significant 19th-century issue of social justice and human transformation, the story of slavery, and how religious in the U.S.A. were involved in and responded to this critical issue in our American social history. This story is sel-dom told. Hardly one of the glorious moments in the history of American religious life, this story can give us religious a perspec-tive and context for understanding present-day events and can teach us multiple ways of bringing our Christian commitment and tradition to contemporary issues. Also, as history has a way of doing, it witnesses to "development of doctrine," with implica-tions for new issues facing the church today. History challenges its students to remember so they will not repeat mistakes of the past. As Elie Wiesel (Jewish scholar, sur-vivor of the Holocaust, and Nobel Prize winner) has pointed out many times, remembering is important. From remembering and pondering the American practice and eventual proscription of slav-ery, what can we religious learn? In the history of the United States, the Civil War (1861-1865) was a profound trial and test of liberty and equality. As President Abraham Lincoln said at Gettysburg, the "nation was "engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so con-ceived and so dedicated, can long endure." This struggle split the country. Among the various causes of the war, the different approaches to slavery in the North and the South were clearly one, and the abolition of slavery was one of the social transfor-mations that resulted from the war. This article examines how religious in the United States responded to the "peculiar institution" of slavery and to its trans-formation. 3 First, how did the overall U.S. Catholic Church respond to slavery? Second, what was the involvement of religious with slaves and with ministry to slaves? Third, what was the atti-tude of religious toward slaves and the institution of slavery? Lastly, what tentative conclusions can be drawn fo~ religious living in today's world? Besides some primary ~ources, there are significant studies (by Jesuits and Vincentians, for example) on the involvement of their particular religious orders with slavery.4 Many religious commu- July-August 1999 Fitz ¯ U.S. Catholic Religious and Slavery nities either have not written or are in the process of writing or rewriting histories of their foundations in this country. Once com-pleted, these congregational histories will be valuable in nuanc-ing any conclusions drawn from the information now available. A thorough study of the archives of religious orders and congrega-tions throughout the country could reveal some significant details and interesting historical anecdotes to complete the picture. The information already available, however, is enough for an overview of the response of U.S. religious to slavery. Attitude toward Slavery in the Catholic Church of the United States I suspect that for most American religious of the 20th cen-tury, the ownership of sla~es by their forebears in religion is dis-turbing. For religious formed since Vatican Council II, this fact might seem incomprehensible. That council places slavery among the crimes against the dignity of the human person and calls the church to work to eliminate all forms of slavery: The varieties of crime are numerous:., all offenses against human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbi-trary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children, degrading working condi-tions where people are treated as mere tools for profit rathe.r than free and responsible persons: all these and the like are criminal; they poison civilization; and they debase the per-petrators more than the victims and militate against the honor of the creator . Human institutions, both private and public, must labor to minister to the dignity and purpose of the human person. At the same time let them put up a stubborn fight against any kind of slavery, whether social or political, and safeguard the basic rights of the human person under every political system. (GS §§27, 29) In the Catholic Church of the early 19th century, no formal and absolute condemnation of slavery as an institution existed. Although recognizing abuses in the system, the ch~arch did not see slavery as a moral evil in itself, but as a result of original sin, Christians found no condemnation of slavery in the Scriptures or in the writings of early church theologians. "From Genesis to Philemon one could find no condemnation of the practice. Jesus did not utter one word of censure against slavery even though it was in full existence-in,his day. St. Paul, who claimed to have met Review for Religious the resurrected Christ, did nothing to abolish it--in fact, he did just the opposite when he said, 'Slaves, be obedient to your masters.'" Although slavery per se was not condemned, Pope Pius II in 1482 and Pope Urban viii in 1639 had condemned the slave trade. Pope Benedict XlV condemned the continued enslavement of native peoples in 1741.5 By the end of the 18th century, abolition movements began in various countries and in some of the states of the United States. In 1839 Pope Gregory Xvi issued an apostolic letter again calling for the elimination of the African slave trade.6 Voices opposing slavery began to arise among Catholics in European countries.7 Catholics in the United States, how-ever, did not take a lead in the aboli-tionist movement. Of the few significant Catholic voices, the most prominent came from outside the United States--the Irish leader Daniel O'Connell. His voice did not, however, receive a warm welcome in the United States) Catholic leaders consistently tended to identify the abolitionists with anti-Catholic and In the Catholic Church of the early 19th century, no formal and absolute condemnation of slavery as an institution existed. nativist sentiments. The Know-Nothing party platform of 1855, which combined anti-slavery, nativist, and anti-Catholic concerns, did nothing to win Catholic converts to the antislavery movement.9 Catholics leaders tended to avoid the slavery issue, which divided the nation. In their 1859 provincial council meeting in Baltimore, the bishops of the United States avoided taking a stand on the issues. Although Catholic leaders admitted that human bondage was not an ideal system, they differed on the gravity of the evil and the practicality of proposals to end the system. The only element upon which they agreed was that the principles and methods of the abolitionists were a threat to the safety of the country2° At time of the Civil War, northern church leaders generally supported the position of the union, and southern church leaders generally supported the confederacy. In 1862 Orestes Brownson, a prominent American Catholic layman and thinker, wrote that in the mind of Catholics the preservation of the union took prece-dence over the abolition of slavery. As a northerner he wrote that it was his impression that the majority of Catholics opposed the July-August 1999 Fit~ * U.S. C~tbolic Religious and Slavery abolitionists, but were neither in favor of slavery nor opposed to gradual emancipation. At the time he himself supported emanci-pation as a political and military necessity.1~ In his manual of moral theology written in the early 1840s, Francis Patrick Kenrick, bishop of Philadelphia and later archbishop of Baltimore, regretted the institution of slavery as it was practiced in the United States, but generally acquiesced in the prevailing conditions in the country. Although especially concerned about the restrictions on the edu-cation of slaves and on the slaves' freedom to practice religion, he nevertheless opposed violation of laws controlling slavery. He encouraged slaves to be obedient and masters to be just and kind. Though he considered the original seizure of slaves to be immoral, he argued that the descendants of those who originally purchased the slaves should not be held accountable.~2 Kenrick represented Catholic opinion in the United States, which generally supported the status quo. Those Catholics who saw slavery as an evil were generally for gradual, not forced, emancipation. Southern Catholic Church leaders defended slavery, although some, like Bishop Augustin Verot of St. Augustine, Florida, also pointed out that many southern masters had abused slaves, and that the war might be God's punishment for this. Among the abuses Verot listed were masters separating families, masters taking advan-tage of female slaves, and masters providing neither religious instruction nor proper clothing, food, and dwellings for slaves.~3 Like many of their fellow Americans, many Catholics also had racist attitudes toward the slaves. Although Catholics recognized slaves as human persons, they did not necessarily accept them as equals. Reflecting this belief, Orestes Brownson could write, "We recognize in the Negro a man, and assert for him in their plenitude the natural rights of man, but we do not believe him the equal of the white man, and we would not give him in society with white men equality of respect to those rights derived not immediately from manhood, but mediately from political and civil society, and in this we express, we apprehend, the general sentiment of the Catholic population of this country." 14 Religious Involvement with Slaves In his first report to the prefect of the Congregation de Propaganda Fide, Father John Carroll, superior of the priests in the missions of Maryland (and later the first American bishop), sent the Review for Religious statistics concerning Catholics in the United States. African slaves were a significant part of the Catholic Church in Maryland, about twenty percent of the Catholic population.~s Catholics owned most of these slaves. In the period before the Civil War, some American religious, like their American compatriots and fellow Catholics, owned slaves, Most early American Catholics lived in Maryland and Kentucky, states that permitted slavery. The owning of slaves was an adaptation religious made to living in America. Records document that both men and women religious owned slaves. The Jesuits were major slave owners. Lord Baltimore had granted them extensive lands. They owned four large estates in Maryland in Prince Georges, Charles, and St. Mary's counties and two smaller plan-tations on the Eastern Shore. They also had two farms in eastern Pennsylvania. At first they relied upon indentured servants, a practice they never completely aban-doned. "As this form of labor became increasingly difficult to secure and retain in Maryland, the Jesuit missionaries, like their secular fellow planters, turned to slave labor." The first explicit reference to slaves is from 1711, although they probably had slaves before then. By 1765 they had 192 slaves.~6 The Jesuits also owned slaves in the Louisiana Territory, in both St. Louis and New Orleans27 Two congregations of men came to America to establish sem-inaries: the Sulpicians and the Vincentians (Congregation of the Mission). Because the Sulpicians were not large landowners, they did not own 'a large number of slaves. Individual Sulpicians in Emmitsburg and Louisville (Bardstown) owned slaves28 At the invitation of William DuBourg, apostolic administrator of the Louisiana territory, the Vincentians staffed St. Mary's Seminary in Perry County, Missouri, beginning in 1818. DuBourg provided them slaves. The first Vincentian superior of the American mission, Father Felix DeAndreis, hesitated to accept them, but did so because there were no lay brothers who could do the manual labor. In fact, DeAndreis considered the possibility of.enlisting free blacks and mulattoes into the Vincentian community, but discarded the idea because he was convinced, probably rightly at the time, that no white men would enter the community. The introduction of slaves was considered a necessary adaptation to the American sit- The owning of slaves was an adaptation religious made to living in America. Jtdy-August 1999 Fitz ¯ U.S. Catholic Religious and Slavery uation. A'major concern of the Vincentian superiors in Rome was that a woman was admitted to the kitchen and thus within the com-munity living quarters. There was no comment about the fact that she was a slave. In 1830 the seminary had twenty-seven slaves; this appears to be the highest number at any one time.~9 Of the first eight permanent communities of women religious founded within the original boundaries of the United States, six had Slaves: three in Maryland (the Carmelites of Port Tobacco, the Visitation Sisters of Georgetown, the Sisters of Charity of Emmitsburg) and three in Kentucky (the Sisters of Loretto, the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, and 'the Dominican Sisters of St. Catherine). The annals and traditions of these six communities refer to "Negro" or "colored" servants" brought by some women as part of their down. For example, at the Carmelite convent, where the slaves numbered thirty by 1829, they lived "comfort-ably" outside the cloister and did the farm work.2° Of the first eight congregations, the Oblate Sisters of Divine Providence (an order of African American religious in Baltimore) and the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy (Charleston, South Carolina) were the two con-gregations that did not have slaves. The other major grouping of religious during the time of slav-ery were those who came to the Louisiana Territory, which became part of the United States in 1803. Most of these religious were French-speaking congregations, although Spanish religious served during the time of Spanish control. In the Louisiana Territory, the Capuchins owned slaves to work their plantations. Mready mentioned was the Jesuit ownership of slaves in the territory.2! Among the communities of women, French-speaking Ursulines were the first to come to New Orleans in 1727. They had slaves provided as part of their contract with the Company of the Indies.22 Although at first reluctant to purchase a slave, Mother Hyacinth, of the Daughters of the Cross (Cocoville, Louisiana), accepted the recommendation of the bishop and purchased a slave.23 The Madames (Religious) of the Sacred Heart had slaves at Grand Coteau, Louisiana, and in Missouri.24 There is correspondence from St. Philippine Duchesne requesting a slave from the Vincentians. The Sisters of Loretto of Bethlehem convent across the road from the Vincentians in Perry County, Missouri, also owned slaves.25 The owning of slaves led consequently to the involvement of religious in the purchase and sale of slaves. For the Sisters of Review for Religious Charity of Nazareth, the purchase of slaves in 1840 was an eco-nomic decision: "The Council decided it was better to buy ser-vants for the farm, and so forth, than pay so much for hire and then often get bad ones."26 When the Carmelites left Charles County for Baltimore in 1831, the disposal of their slaves was one of their difficulties. According to the Carmelite centennial histo-rian, the slaves became a source of anxiety because the sisters did not have the resources to grant them their freedom, so they gave them permission to seek their own masters. The sisters received whatever price the new master gave. Older slaves were left to the care of competent persons, and the sisters provided for their neces-sities until their deaths.27 The involvement in the sale of slaves by the Vincentians is documented in the previously mentioned study. The ownership of slaves led the Vincentians to become involved in the sale and purchase of slaves. There was an attempt t9 be faithful to church law. In a letter addressed to the Vincentian general in 1840, the American provincial, Father John Timon, explained that the"pur-pose of the increased buying of slaves was to bring families together. The Vincentians slowly phased out slaveholding during the 1850s and 1860s. Although personally opposed to slavery, Timon justified the decision to sell the slaves in terms of economic and political rather than moral factors. Freeing the slaves was not considered.28 The sale of the Jesuit slaves in Maryland caused great con-troversy. Some Jesuits sought to free the slaves and, in the pro-cess, change the labor force running their farms from slave to free. When the Jesuits were restored in 1814, the civil corpora-tion made a resolution to this effect in that same year; it was, however, never carried out. The Jesuits became embroiled in a dispute with Ambrose Marechal, the new archbishop of Baltimore, who had initiated claims against the Jesuit estates, arguing that they were meant to support the entire church in Maryland, not just the Jesuits.29 Any sales were delayed until the dispute could be settled. By the 1830s the new group of younger Jesuits was becoming uncomfortable with the estates and their status as slave owners. By this time, however, the climate in the country had changed and the policy of deferred emancipation became more difficult to fol-low. Older Jesuits, mostly Europeans, supported keeping the estates. Younger Jesuits, mostly Americans, wanted to sell them July-Augl~St 1999 Fitz ¯ U.S. Catholic Religious and Slavery and the slaves and concentrate on education. The older Jesuits argued that the slaves were a patrimony. Father Francis Dzierozynski wrote, "I consider the blacks under this respect only, that they are our sons, whose care and salvation have been entrusted to us by Divine Providence and who are always happy under our Fathers." For Dzierozynski and~others, the bond between the slaves and the Jesuits was not to be broken for finan-cial reasons. They argued that selling the slaves would lead to the slaves' physical and moral ruin and would give great scandal.3° In October 1836 the superior general approved the sale of the slaves with the condition that their religious needs must be met, families must not be separated (especially spouses), and the money must be invested for the support of Jesuits in training.31 In June, Father Thomas Mulledy, the provincial, sold the slaves to Henry Johnson of Louisiana. The main group of the slaves was sent to Louisiana in November 1838. Mulledy was denounced to the supe-rior general because some of the slave families were separated, and Mulledy was subsequently replaced. The change to tenant farming ended the Jesuit history as slaveholders. Clearly the young Jesuits who advocated sale of the slaves perceived correctly that owning slaves was scandalous. Their manner of handling the sale clearly violated the principles of the church concerning the sale and treatment of slaves, and they did not provide for their even-tual emancipation. This too wa~ a scandal. ~ In general, how did religious treat their slaves? In his study on American Catholics and slavery, Kenneth Zanca notes "that reli-gious orders treated their slaves more humanely than other slave holders and generally saw to their religious education--even in the defiance of state laws. To be a 'priest's slave' or a 'nun's slave' was considered a fortunate circumstance for a slave.''32 Although the slaves of religious may have been treated more humanely than other, slaves, problems persisted. Father Adam Marshall, the Jesuit charged with overseeing the plantations for the corporation, described the dwellings for the slaves as "almost universally unfit for human beings to live in." When possible, Jesuit brothers were given charge of the farms. Father .Peter Kenney, an Irish Jesuit, sent by the Jesuit superior general as a special visitor to evaluate the American mission in 1819, took exception to the arbitrary treatment of the slaves by the brothers. He found general disaffection among the slaves and particular abuses (for example, whipping pregnant women). He also found the Review for Religious behavior of the slaves scandalous and their practice of religion vir-tually nonexistent. Because of the poor financial condition of the Jesuits in general in the early 1820s, the living conditions of the slaves on most of the plantations were less than adequate. However, with new management the material conditions of the slaves seemed to improve by the 1830s. At St. Inigoes, the most thriving of the plantations, Father Joseph Carberry instituted a system of incentives for the slaves, which led to their economic improvement. Concerning their moral and spiritual condition, despite catech-esis and required attendance at Mass, Kenney found the slaves' lives to be a "moral wasteland and scandalous reproach to the Society" of Jesus. "Some Jesuits attributed the moral anarchy to the Society's own failure to discipline the slaves." 3 3 Some accounts about slaves owned by religious report a general affection by the slaves for their religious owners. At St. Catherine, Kentucky, this is how the ~rs~a~e laws. relationship between the Dominican sis-ters and their slaves is reported.34 When the sisters wanted to build a new chapel, some of the slaves who had come to the sisters as part of a dowry voluntarily offered to do without new clothes for a year so that the money might be donated to the chapel fund. Some slaves gave their earnings toward the project. Even after emancipation, some slaves remained with the sisters until their deaths.3s A report about the slaves owned by the Religious of the Sacred Heart indicates that they were "happy as possible in their snug little cabins" and were converted to the Catholic faith and the "love of the Sacred Heart that was the reason for Grand Coteau's existence.''36 An historian of the earlier Jesuit mission in the United States claims that dur-ing the Revolutionary War the slaves of the Jesuits could have abandoned the Jesuit plantations when British ships raided the plantations. The priests' slaves, unlike neighboring slaves, did not do so. The historian takes this as a sign of the slaves' devotion to their masters.37 There are, however, no accounts from the slaves themselves to confirm these impressions. Religious orders treated their slaves more humanely than other slave holders and generally saw to their religious education-- even in the defiance Ju~-dugltst 1999 Fitz * U.S. Catholic Religious and Slaver~ Ministry by Religious to Slaves Before the Civil War the Catholic Church in the South was small, poor, and understaffed. "Catholicism, in short, could not ade-quately minister to either the slave or the free blacks in the South ([whether] Catholic or non-Catholic), nor could Catholicism prac-tically enforce its own teaching on the proper treatment of slaves."3s The church was hesitant and ambivalent in most of its efforts to work among African Americans, whether slave or free.39 John Carroll was concerned about "a general lack of care in instructing their children and especially the Negro slaves in their religion.''4° Although local parish records indicate a high rate of baptisms among slaves throughout the antebellum period, "there is little evidence of high rates of slave identification with Catholicism in terms of attendance at Mass, marriage in the church, or other signs of Catholic activity and devotion.''4~ Despite this general lack of ade, quate ministry, religious provided some ministry to slaves. Most commonly, it was religious-order priests who provided for the slaves the celebration of the Sunday and holy day Eucharists and the celebration of baptism and marriage. The Vincentians and Capuchins ministered to slaves on the plantations in the Louisiana Territory.42 As noted earlier, the Jesuits provided sacramental min-istry for their slaves, both in Louisiana and Maryland, and for the slaves of Catholic masters in Maryland.43 A Jesuit mission band giving revivals on southern Maryland farms in the Jubilee Year 1851 also served slaves.44 Some religious priests tried to protect slaves from abuse. In 1791, for example, Capuchin Father Joaquin de Portillo ordered slaves to stop working on a holy day of obligation and reported the incident to the Louisiana Eovernor because work on a holy day was a violation of the slave code in the colony.~s In general, religious catechized their slaves and sometimes provided them basic education. As mentioned earlier, the Jesuits taught catechism to their slaves. Religious women catechized and educated black slaves, especially children.In a letter of 1856, Mother Hyacinth indicates that they educated their slave named Simon.46 There is evidence that the Visitation Sisters educated free black girls, and this tradition may have "its origins in the instruction given to their slaves.''47 Bishop England founded the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy in Charleston, South Carolina, for the purpose of establishing a school for "free colored girls, and to give religious instruction to female slaves.''~s A letter of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton provides evidence of catechetical work among African American children.49 The Daughters of Charity organized classes to teach religion to their slaves,s° The Ursulines in New Orleans also catechized slaves,s| Two religious orders of African American women were founded to educate and catechize African American children. "To work for the Christian education of colored children," four Haitian refugees founded the Oblate Sisters of Divine Providence, "a Religious Society of virgins and widows of color." They provided education for African American children who had no other possi-bilities. Some children they educated may have been slave chil-dren, although that is not clear from the sources,s2 Supported at first by the Sulpicians in the person of Father James Joubert and later by the Redemptorists under the direction of Father Thaddeus Anwander, who was influenced by Father John Neumann, the sis-ters went about their mission under difficult circumstances includ-ing years of neglect and hardship. They continued a school in Baltimore that several of the sisters had started before ~their orga-nization as a religious congregation in 1829. The other religious community of African American sisters, the Sisters of the Holy Family, was founded in New Orleans for the purpose of serving and educating the poor. Before she founded the community, Henriette DeLille had entered into the work of teaching religion to slaves,s3 Although much of their educational work and service ministry was with poor free African Americans, they also did catechetical work among the slaves,s4 Care of slaves was also part of the outreach ministry of women religious. The Sisters of the Holy Family, prompted by the wretched condition of old, abandoned slaves; opened a home for the aged.ss The Hotel Dieu, run by the Daughters of Charity in New Orleans, had a slave department that had special rates and "superior advantages" for members of this class,s6 Attitude of Religious toward the Institution of Slavery and toward Slaves Slavery The attitude of religious in the United States toward slavery tended to mirror the attitude of United States Catholics in general. No religious and no Catholic occupied the' forefront of the aboli-tionist movement. ~uly-August 1999 Fitz ¯ U.S. Catholic Religious and Slavery There are, however, records of individual religious who were opposed to slavery. A Sulpician, Father Louis-Regis Deluol, and a Vincentian, Father John Timon, are two examples. In a letter to Charles Carroll's granddaughter, Deluol wrote that his feelings were most violently opposed to slavery. In the same letter, though, he indicated that he did not see slavery as opposed to divine or ecclesiastical law.57 Timon, the Vincentian superior of the American mission who was responsible for ending Vincentian involvement in slavery, accepted the bishopric of Buffalo, New York, because he feared he might be named coadjutor of Bardstown. Timon "would have intensely disliked that appointment because Negro slavery obtains in the state of Kentucky."58 Opposition to slavery did not, in general, lead religious to participate in the abolitionist move-ment or to the manumission of slaves. There were religious who supported slavery. Father John Ryder SJ, of Georgetown University, addressing an audience in Richmond in 183 5, defended slavery "as a positive benefit to the slav.e, while arguing that abolitionism was incompatible with Catholicism."59 One of the most prominent Catholic figures of the 19th cen-tury was Isaac Thomas Hecker, a convert to Roman Catholicism, a religious, and the founder of the Paulists. Oversimplifying, one can say that Hecker saw as his task the adaptation of the Roman Catholic Church to America, "proving to Catholics that their coun-try was not Protestant at its ideological roots, .and to Protestants that Catholics were not inherendy anti-democratic." Like his men-tor Orestes Brownson, Hecker saw Roman Catholic natural-law theory as a stronger grounding for democracy than Protestantism or Lockean liberalism. Hecker's dream of America's conversion to Catholicism never materialized.6° At the time of the Civil War, Hecker was laying the founda-tions of the Paulist community. In his writings and letters he hardly mentions the raging political issues of slavery and expansion.6~ In a sermon written in April 1861 b~t apparently never delivered, Hecker was convinced that the "root of the problem between the states was a lack of common religion.62 In a series of articles before the war, Hecker had written that the Catholic Church was friend of both master and slave. He had cohtrasted the Catholic Church, which supported union and reconciliation, with the fanatic and divisive Protestant abolitionists. I-Iecker saw the war as a perfect example of how the Catholic Church would have prevented hos- Review for Religious tility. "Slavery, under the benign influence of Catholic principles and legislation, voluntarily and insensibly disappears, just as serf-dom was made to give way to modern society without violence or bloodshed." Hecker hoped that the Civil War would lead the coun-try to see the value of Catholicism.63 On the issue of slavery itself, Hecker held views conventional for a Roman Catholic of his day. There is evidence of his views in correspondence with Jane Sedgwick, a convert and friend in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, in the spring of 1861. Hecker's letter to Sedgwick no longer exists, but her response indicates her dis-agreement with his defense of servitude under certain conditions. We have no record of Hecker's response to her questions and argu-ments. "Once the war came, Hecker told friends he had always been opposed to slavery; he even told Bishop Lynch of Charleston that he regarded the war as a punishment of the South for its evils.''64 One of his biographers, David O'Brien, quotes a passage from a letter of September 1861 : The sentiment of loyal Americans whether Catholic or not is getting always [more] and more strong and united every day against slavery and without any change of principle. We have always taken the ground that it is an evil and a disgrace which might be tolerated for a time, but ought to be grad-ually abolished. The Constitutional rights of the states for-bade, however, any direct meddling and made it our duty to protect the institution of slavery against unjust aggression. Now, however, since slavery is so destructive of national prosperity, and the South by its rebellion has forfeited all claim to the forbearance of the North, we think the time will soon come to expel slavery from our entire country.65 Slaves Attitudes toward slaves among religious are similar to those held by other white Catholic Americans. Although some English Protestants held the view that Negroes were incapable of baptism because they were not strictly human, Catholics did baptize slaves when the occasion presented itself, especially when the slaves were their own.6. Father George Hunter, a Jesuit, reminded masters of their duty to treat slaves with charity. "As they are members of Jesus Christ, redeemed by his precious blood, they are to be dealt with in a charitable, Christian, paternal manner; which is at the same time a great means to bring them to do their duty to God, and therefore to gain their souls.".7 Although seen as human, slaves were often treated and described in condescending and paternal- July-August 1999 Fitz * U.S. Catholic Religious and Slavery istic terms. The treatment of slaves as property (moving them from one place to another) manifests the failure of religious to treat slaves as fully human. The language of religious also por-trayed their condescending attitudes toward slaves. Father Joseph Mosley SJ, who came to Maryland at the time of the Jesuit sup-pression in 1773, wrote to his sister the following year: "They ['the Negroes'] are naturally inclined to thieving, lying, and much lechery. I believe want [poverty] makes them worse thieves and liars, and the innate heat .of the climate of Africa and their natu-ral temper of constitution gives them a bent to lechery.''6s Another Jesuit, Brother Mobberly, who managed St. Inigoes from 1806 to 1820, felt that a lack of discipline was the root of the slaves' prob-lems. He developed a racial theory of African subservience.69 Mobberly wrote in his diary: "The better a Negro is treated, the worse he becomes." With this attitude, there is little wonder that Mobberly was removed a month after the visit of Father Kenney in 1820.70 Against the background of slavery, Vincentian lay brothers felt and caused some difficulty within their congregation. "The broth-ers resented the implicit identification of their work with that of slaves and were increasingly reluctant to do certain types of labor, perhaps under the influence of American attitudes." Like many white laborers, the lay brothers disliked doing the kind of work slaves did, considering it degradation. Father Rosati, one of the Vincentian superiors, struggled with the duplicity he saw in the lay brothers: they did not want slaves, but refused to do the work that the slaves were hired or bought to do.71 Some religious felt compassion for the slaves, although this compassion did not always lead to action. Mother Theodore Guerin, who founded the Sisters of Providence of Saint Mary-of-the-Woods in Indiana, wrote the following in her journal about her trip to New Orleans: The most painful sight I saw in New Orleans was the selling of slaves. Every day in the streets at appointed places, Negroes and Negresses in holiday attire are exposed for this shameful traffic, like the meanest of animals at our fairs. This spectacle oppressed my heart. Lo! I said to myself, these Americans, so proud of their liberty, thus make game of the liberty of others. Poor Negroes! I would have wished to buy them all that I might say to them, "Go! Bless Providence. You are free." But such feelings must be concealed from the Louisianians, as this is a point on which they are very sensio tire.72 Review for Religious The Vincentian Father DeAndreis also felt compassion toward the slaves. In a letter of 1819 to the Vincentian community at Monte Citoria, he wrote: .With regard to the situation of the blacks and mulattoes, these are for the most part slaves, who are condemned to eat the bread of sorrow and to bear pondus diei et aestus [the burden of the day and the scorching heat (Mt 20:12)] and, what is worse, in their harsh condition to serve the passions of others and to be in the moral impossibility of knowing and practicing religion. They are commonly forbidden to contract marriage because of the loss that their masters would suffer as a result, something that exposes them to a thou-sand dangers. For the rest these natives of Africa are for the most part simple and disposed to profit by the labors that are undertaken for their salvation. They are moved at seeing a white priest interested in them since they are regarded as the offscouring and refuse of the human race. How many subjects of consolation do not these poor creatures offer me! They are instructed, they make their first communion, and then they frequent the sacraments.73 DeAndreis's writing flowed from personal experience. After arriving in St. Louis in 1818, he made the African Americans of the city an object of his special ministry. His friend Joseph Rosati, who became the first bishop of St. Louis, recollected that people were astonished at seeing a scholar applying himself to this min-istry with special ardor and dedication.74 Conclusion Several general trends can be drawn from this study of American religious and slavery. Like their fellow Catholics, some American religious owned and sold slaves and became entangled in the control and supervision of slaves. Although some commenta-tors indicate that, in general, religious treated their slaves better than .other slave masters, there are few slave witnesses to verify this perception. Religious provided sacramental ministry and edu-cation (mostly catechetical) to their slaves and to the slaves of other Catholic masters. Religious also provided limited social ser-vices to slaves. With regard to the institution of slavery, American religious mirrored American Catholics in general. They did not see slav-ery as intrinsically wrong. If they opposed slavery, they were for gradual emancipation. Although they saw slaves as human, slaves 3%dy-August 1999 Fitz ¯ U.S. Catholic Religious and Slavery were often described in condescending and racist terms. Some compassion was shown, but this did not often lead to action or a desire to eliminate the institution. As an historical account, this article could end at this point. But should more be said? Is there anything we, as religious living near the end of the 20th century, might learn from our forebears in the faith as we grapple with social-justice and social-transformation issues in the world today? There are several important lessons. A first lesson might be a challenge for us as religious to exam-ine more critically our relationship to culture. As religious, we are called to be prophetic. Hopefully, our words, actions, and lives will perform at least two prophetic functions: criticize the existing sinful and unjust social consciousness and energize the world by embodying an alternative way to live that brings hope.7s This prophetic witness can be greatly compromised if we live com-pletely apart from the culture. Conversely, if we are so immersed in the culture that we do not see injustices, and in fact participate in them, our actions become a source of scandal. American reli-gious quickly adapted to the American experience of slavery. Was this an example of being too immersed in the culture to be truly prophetic to it? Were some religious so much outsiders (for exam-ple, Catholic, French extraction, unmarried women) that criticism was muted in order not too offend? The experience of slavery of American religious in the 19th century can challenge religious today to look at our present culture. Are there structures in which we are so immersed that we fail to see injustice present? Are there unjust structures that we are afraid to challenge because the chal-lenge might cost us personally or communally? Are we alert and attentive to the structures of culture that may need prophetic chal-lenge and a witness to :an alternative way? For international institutes, these same questions may be asked concerning new implantations in other cultures. What aspects of the new culture should be accepted as compatible with and expres~ sive of gospel values? What aspects are unjust and need to be opposed? As the first religious in America quickly adapted to the institution of slavery, are there aspects of other cultures to which we are easily adapting without critical thought? These are not easy questions, but they are important if we are to be faithful to our prophetic witness. Second, the slavery issue can be a lesson in listening to and evaluating the message of another. Catholics, including religious, Review for Religqous did not listen to the abolitionists because a significant group of abolitionists was anti-Catholic as well (though this was not true of all of them). Although abolitionists may have been wrong in their anti,Catholicism, they were prophetic in their respect for the dignity of African Americans. In our own day the truth may be proclaimed by someone with whom we have little in common or with whom we disagree on significant issues. Truth can come from anywhere, and we need to hear the truth whether it comes from friend or foe, compan-ion or opponent. Are we today open to the truth, from whatever source? Have we stopped listening to some group where the truth may be present, even in the midst of error? A third lesson concerns the development of doctrine in the history of the Catholic Church. In the area of social justice and trans-formation, there are significant examples of this development. The institution of slavery, once considered a moral way to treat individuals, is now considered immoral. Reflection over the years has helped the church come to a new understanding of the implications of the reign of God as Jesus proclaimed it. As the early church struggled with the issue of accepting Gentiles into the church, so American Christians of the 19th century grappled with the implications of the gospel in terms of slavery. Statements made by bishops over a hun-dred and fifty years ago have been reversed by bishops in our own day. What was once considered not intrinsically wrong is now con-sidered a crime against human dignity. This development of doc-trine, therefore, can be a source of hope as we grapple with new justice issues today. As we deal with right-to-life issues (think of abortion and capital punishment), dignity-of-women issues, and other such issues, what appears as a small glimmer of light (even a light from outside the church) may be the source of new insight and a new living of the reign of God in future generations. A call for change, for which there may be little'support now, may gain considerable support as time passes. Religious in the United States have been called by the church to commit themselves to social justice and social transformation. We have chosen to commit ourselves to these values. Although the story of American religious involvement in and response to Are there structures in which we are so immersed that we fail to see injustice present ? ~uly-August 1999 Fitz * U.S. Catholic Religious and Slavery the institution of slavery in this country is not one of the glorious moments in our history, we can hope that the experience of our forebears in dealing with this issue may bring light and insight to our present-day struggle to discern the call of the Spirit in our world. Notes ~ I am using Austin Flannery's translation of the tide of this document, which has elsewhere been called "Religious and Human Promotion." The document was issued by the congregation in January 1981. See Origins 10, no. 34 (5 February 1981): 529-541. 2 House Concurrent Resolution 96, Congressional Record, 1997, H3890-3891. 3 A term I have borrowed from Kenneth M. Stamp, The Peculiar Institution: Slavery in the Ante-Bellum South (New York: Vintage Books, 1956). 4 R. Emmett Curran, "'Splendid Poverty': Jesuit Slaveholding in Maryland, 1805-1838," in Randall M. Miller and John L. Wakelyn, eds., Catholics in the Old South: Essays on Church and Culture (Macon, Georgia: Mercer University Press, 1983); Stafford Poole CM and Douglas J. Slawson CM, Church and Slave in Perry Country, Missouri, 1818-1865 (Lewistown, New York: Edwin Mellen Press, 1986). s Kenneth J. Zanca, ed., Amen'can Catholics and Slavery, 1789-1866: An Anthology of Primary Documents (Latham, Maryland: University Press of America, 1994), pp. xxxi and 37-39. 6 Madeleine Hooke Rice, American Catholic Opinion in the Slavery Controversy (Gloucester: Peter Smith, 1964), p. 21. 7 John Francis Maxwell, Slavery and the Catholic Church: The History of Catholic Teaching concerning the Moral Legitimacy of the Institution of Slavery (London: Barry Rose Publishers, 1975), pp. 101-110. 8 David J. O'Brien, Public Catholicism, 2nd ed. (Maryknoll: Orbis Books, 1996), p. 65. See also Rice, American Catholic Opinion, pp. 80-85. 90'Brien, Public Catholicism, p. 53. ,0 Rice, American Catholic Opinion, p. 85. ii Zanca, American Catholics, pp. 134-139. This is an article from Brownson 's Quarterly Review. 12 Zanca, American Catholics, p. 200. See also Joseph D. Brokhage, Francis Patrick Kenrick's Opinion on Slavery (Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of America Press, 1955), pp. 122-124. 13 Zanca, American Catholics, pp. 201-209. This is a sermon preached by Verot in 1861. ~ Zanca, American Catholics, p. 136. ts Cyprian Davis, The History of Black Catholics in the United States (New York: Crossroad, 1990), p. 35. Review for Religious ,6 Curran, "Splendid Poverty," p. 126. 17 Poole and Slawson, Church and Slave, pp. 180-181. ~8 Christopher J. Kauffmar~, Tradition and Transformation in Catholic Culture: The Priests of Saint Sulpice in the United States from 1791 to the Present (New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1988), p. 146. See also Poole and Slawson, Church and Slave, p. 143. 19 Poole and Slawson, Church and Slave, pp. 144-158 and 162. 20 Barbara Misner, Highly Respectable and Accomplished Ladies: Catholic Women Religious in America, 1790-18~0, Vol. 22 of The Heritage of American Catholicism, ed. Timothy Walch (New York: Garland Publishing, 1988), pp. 75 and 76. See also Mary Ewens OP, "The Role of the Nun in Nineteenth-Century America: Variations on the International Theme" (Doctoral diss., University of Minnesota, 1971), p. 38. 2t Roger Baudier, The Catholic Church in Louisiana (New Orleans, 1939), pp. 89, 108-109, 115-116, 131-132,139, 202. 22 Sister Frances Jerome Woods, "Congregations of Religious Women in the Old South," in Catholics in the Old South: Essays on Church and Culture, ed. Randall M. Miller and Jon L. Wakelyn (Macon, Georgia: Mercer University Press, 1983), p. 112. 23 Woods, "Congregations,,' p. 113. See also Ewens, "Role of the Nun," p. 22. 24 Woods, "Congregations," p. 114. See also Ewens, p. 64, and Davis, History, p. 39. 2s Poole and Slawson, Church andSlave, pp. 171 and 172. 26Misner, Highly Respectable, p. 82, quoting from an archival record. 27Misner, Highly Respectable, p. 77. 28Poole and Slawson, Church and Slave, pp. 186-189. 29Curran, "Splendid Poverty," pp. 134-135. 30Curran, "Splendid Poverty," pp. 138, 140, 141. ~ Curran, "Splendid Poverty," p. 142. 32 Zanca, American Catholics, p. 111. ~3 Curran, "Splendid Poverty," pp. 129, 130, 132. 34 V~Zoods, "Congregations," p. 114. ~5 Misner, Highly Respectable, p. 84, and Woods, "Congregations," p. 114. The two authors seem to be using a common source, Commemorative booklet for American Bicentennial (St. Catherine, 1976). 36 Woods, "Congregations," p. 114, quoting from Margaret Williams, Second Sowing: The Life of Mary Aloysia Hardey (New York, 1942), p. 103. 37 Thomas Hughes SJ, History of the Society of ffesus in North America, Colonial and Federak Text, From 164Y till 1773, Vol. 2 (London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1917), p. 565. ~8 Michael McNally, "A Minority of a Minority: The Witness of Black July-August 1999 Fitz ¯ U.S. Catholic Religious ~nd Slavery Women Religious in the Antebellum South," Review for Religious 40, no. 2 (March 1981): 261. 39 Margaret Susan Thompson, "Philemon's Dilemma: Nuns and the Black Community in Nineteenth-Century America: Some Findings," in The American Catholic Religious Life: Selected Historical Essays, ed. Joseph M. White (New York: Garland Publishing, 1988), p. 83. 40 John Carroll, "The First American Report to Propaganda on Catholicism in the United States, March 1, 1785," in Documents of American Catholic History, Vol. 1, 1493 to 186~, ed. John Tracy Ellis (Wilmington: Michael Glazier, 1987), p. 149. 4~ Randall M. Miller, "The Failed Mission: The Catholic Church and Black Catholics in the Old South," in Miller and Wakelyn, Catholics in the Old South, p. 152. 42 Baudier, Catholic Church, pp. 76-77. 43 Baudier, Catholic Church, pp. 139, 161. The Capuchins provided ministry to slaves in Louisiana. A dispute arouse between the Jesuits and the Capuchins over whether the Jesuits, who were assigned to the Indian missions, had jurisdiction and could minister to their own slaves (see Baudier, pp. 115-116). ~4 Edward E Beckett SJ, "Listening to Our History: Inculturation and Jesuit Slaveholding," Studies in the Spirituality of Jesuits 28, no. 5 (November 1996): 15. 4s Baudier, p. 213. 4~ Woods, "Congregations," p. 113. 47 Misner, Highly Respectable, p. 203 48 Misner, Highly Respectable, pp. 204-205. 49 Zanca, American Catholics, p. 143. ' 50 Woods, "Congregations," p. 112. s~ Baudier, Catholic Church, p. 183. 52 Sister M. Reginald Gerdes OSP, "To Educate and Evangelize: Black Catholic Schools of the Oblate Sisters of Providence (1828-1880)," U.S. Catholic Historian 7, nos. 2 and 3 (Spring/Summer 1988): 183-199. s3 Woods, "Congregations," p. 115. 54 Davis, History, pp. 105-I10. See also Woods, "Congregations," p. 116, and Baudier, Catholic Church, p. 397. 55 McNally, "Minority," p. 264. ~6 Woods, "Congregations," p. 113, and Baudier, p. 396. Baudier is quoting from the silver-jubilee booklet of the Hotel Dieu School of Nursing in 1927. 57Kauffman, Tradition and Transfomnation, p. 146. 58 Poole and Slawson, Church and Slave, p. 179. 59 Beckett, "Listening to Our History," p. 45, fn. 186. 60 Edward J. Langlois, "Isaac Hecker's Political Thought," in Hecker Review for Religions Studies: Essays on the Thought of Isaac Hecker, ed. John Farina (New York: Paulist Press, 1983), pp. 51 and 66. 6, David J. O'Brien, Isaac Hecker: An American Catholic (New York: Paulist Press, 1992), p. 191. 62 Langlois, "Isaac Hecker's Political Thought," p. 68. See also p. 85, fn. 36. 63 Hecker's sermon, quoted in Langlois, p. 69. 64 O'Brien, lsaac Hecker, p. 192. 6s O'Brien, Isaac Hecko; p. 192. 66Zanca, American Catholics, p. 113 67Hughes,.History, Vol. 2, p. 559. 68Zanca, American Catholics, pp. 1 I3-114. 69Beckett, "Listening to Our History," p. 2 I. 70Curran, "Splendid Poverty," p. 133. 7~ Poole and Slawson, Church and Slave, pp. 156-157. 72 Zanca, American Catholics, p. 117. 73Poole and Slawson, Church and Slave, pp. 145-146. ~4 Poole and Slawson, Church and Slave, p. 147. 75 For further development of the concept of religious life as acted prophecy, see my article "Religious Life as~Acted Prophecy," Review for Religious 41, no. 6 (November-December 1982): 923-927. I Will I will survive even though I have doubts and fears, I will survive when my eyes are full of tears, I will go on with faith in God's hands I will trust my Jesus for I know he understands. Janice Barham July-August 1999 RITA E. GOLDMAN Edith Stein: St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross OCD witness We might begin by asking ourselves, who is Edith Stein? First and foremost, she is a woman, a Jewish woman, student, nurse, scholar/philosopher, teacher, Carmelite nun, and confessor/martyr saint. She was inscribed in the calendar of saints on 11 October 1998, having been beatified at Cologne, Germany, on 1 May 1987. On the last few pages of her work On the Problem of Empathy, she has left us a short biographic sketch. She writes: "I, Edith Stein, was born on 12 October 1891 in Breslau, the daughter of the deceased merchant Siegfried Stein and his wife, Auguste, n~e Courant. I am a Prussian citizen and Jewish." She tells us that, in the year she was born, 12 October was the greatest Jewish holy day, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. Her mother, a devout Jew, always considered this a great blessing, having her last child on the Day of Atonement. Edith was the youngest of eleven children, of whom only seven sur-vived. Her mother was widowed twenty-one months after Edith was born. She tells of where she went to school and then of beginning the study of philosophy, to be interrupted in 1916 when she served with the Red Cross during the Rita E. Goldman wrote "Frances Cabrini: A Woman for Today" for our November-December 1996 issue, Her address is 3041 North Country Club Road, Apartment 220; Tucson, Arizona 85716. Revie~v for Religious First World War. After the war she became a teacher at a girls' secondary school in Breslau. Later she began work on her doc-torate in phenomenology, becoming an assistant to Edmund Husserl. In 1917 she was asked by the widow of her former teacher Adolf Reinach, who had died at the front, to help put her hus-band's papers in order. Frau Reinach was a devout Christian; and it was from her influence that Edith began to move toward the Christian faith. In the summer of 1921 she read the autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila, the great Carmelite mystic of the 16th cen-tury. "This," she concluded, "is the truth." She was baptized on New Year's Day 1922. After her baptism Edith spent the next eight years teaching German and literature at St. Magdalena's, a teacher training insti-tute run by the Dominican Sisters at Speyer. During this time she continued her philosophic interests, writing a two-volume study of the philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas. She tried to obtain a pro-fessorship at Freiburg, but was refused because she was a woman. Though she was later to be barred from publishing and lecturing because of being Jewish, at this time she traveled extensively to give lectures in places as varied as Munich, Vienna, Prague, Juvisy (near Paris), and Zurich. In 1932 she accepted a teaching post at the German Institute for Scientific Pedagogy in MOnster. The following year she was denied her lectureship under a Nazi decree aimed at Jews. In October 1933, on the Feast of St. Teresa of Avila, Edith entered the Carmel at Cologne. When the situation in Germany became very bad for Jews, Edith was transferred to the Carmel at Echt, in Holland. But this move did not save her, and in August 1942 she and her sister Rosa were arrested and deported. She died at Auschwitz, on or near 9 August 1942. What I have said above is a general outline of Edith Stein's life, but I think we are more concerned with her thought, what led her to become a Catholic, what called her to become a Carmelite nun, than with the externals of her life. At the age of fifteen, Edith decided she did not believe in God. When she was twenty-four, during her study of phenomenology, a flicker of faith began to catch her ey.e. Then came her contact with Frau Reinach and her reading of the life of St. Teresa of Avila. In St. Teresa's response to Christ's love, Edith found the answer she had sought. She decided to follow Christ's invitation and enter July-Augtlst 1999 GoMman ¯ Edith Stein the Catholic Church. (Even at that time Edith was strongly aware that an attraction to live out her baptismal commitment as a mem-ber of the Discalced Carmelite Order and as a daughter of St. Teresa was inseparable from her resolve to enter the church.) Edith bought a catechism and a missal, studied them thor-oughly, then went to her first Mass in the parish church of Bergzabern, celebrated by the pastor, Monsignor Breitling. Finding that she had no difficulty in following the Mass, she approached Monsignor Breitling afterwards and asked for baptism. The sur-prised pastor told her that there is usually an extended period of preparation before someone is received into the church. But Edith would not relent and asked that he examine her right then on the truths of the faith. The "examination" went so well that her bap-tism was set for the coming New Year's Day. Edith began attend-ing Mass daily--it became the center of her spiritual life. During the years she taught at St. Magdalena's, she was remembered as a teacher who was "modest and unassuming., she went about her work pretty much unseen and unheard, always friendly and ready to be of help." As one student wrote of her rec-ollections of Edith Stein: "Actually, she gave us everything. Though we were all very young at the time, none of us has ever been able to forget the spell that her personality exerted. Her manner alone made her a model for us at that critical time. There's not a single remark of hers that I can repeat--and it isn't that her comments were not memorable, but that she was a quiet, untalkative person who could influence us simply by who she was." These words reflect what Edith herself said of her teaching. She regarded edu-cation as a form of apostolate and generously devoted herself to all the needs of her students. When in 1932-1933 Edith could no longer teach or publish because of the situation in Germany, she at last received permis-sion to enter the Cologne Carmel. This was something she had wanted to do since the day she was baptized, and now it was to be fulfilled. From 16 July to 15 August 1933, she lived in the extern guest quarters at the C.ologne convent while getting acquainted with the sisters. After" that she spent several months in Breslau doing all she could to make her leave-taking easier on her family before her entrance into Carmel on 15 October, the feast of St. Teresa. For six months she was a postulant, being admitted to the novitiate on 15 April 1934. At this time she received her name in religion, Sister Teresa .Benedicta of the Cross. She had taken the Review for Religious name of Teresa at the time of her baptism and took the name Benedicta of the Cross--blessed by the cross--which was her great devotion. She took the name Benedicta also in honor of St. Benedict, since she had been the spiritual child of Archabbot Walzer, who was the abbot at Beuron, the monastery where she had spent much time. In 1935 on Easter Sunday she pronounced her first vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience and three years later, on 21 April 1938, she made her final solemn profession. Life in the monastery was for Edith very different from what she had experienced in the world. She was forty-two years old, and the other novices were in their twenties. She was not accus-tomed to housework and made all kinds of mistakes. The novice mistress had been a bit worried at first when she heard she would have to teach a scholar, but Edith was so amiable and eager to learn that the novice mistress forgot her nervousness. Another thing, her time was not her own--and was very much regulated by bells. After the novitiate, however, much of her assigned work was of an intellectual nature. She revised some of the things she had written while at Speyer. Some of her writings during this period are published in The Hidden Life. At times she also served as receptionist (at the "turn" and on the telephone) and as infirmarian. On 31 December 1938 she was driven across the border to the Carmelite monastery at Echt in Holland. Since Kristallnacht (8 November 1938), Edith had thought it best not to endanger the Cologne Carmel any longer with her presence. Sister Teresa Benedicta spent only a little over three years in the Echt Carmel. During this time she suffered greatly, not know-ing what was happening to her family. Some of her brothers and sisters were able to emigrate to America, but several were not per-mitted to go. Her sister Rosa was with her, having become a Catholic after the death of their mother in 1936. Edith's letters at this time express a central theme: Do everything you can to give joy to others; let God guide you without resistance; fill up She had taken the name of Teresa at the time of her baptism and took the name Benedicta of the Cross-blessed by the cross - which was her great devotion. July-Augv~st 1999 Goldman ¯ Edith Stein the emptiness of your heart with love of God and neighbor. In 1939 she composed her final testament. It reveals more than anything else her conscious acceptance of her particular mis-sion. I quote from the concluding lines: I joyfully accept in advance the death God has appointed for me, in perfect submission to his most holy will. May the Lord accept my life and death for the honor and glory of his name, for the needs of his holy Church (especially the preservation, sanctification, and final perfecting, of our holy order, and in particular for the Carmels of Cologne and Echt), for the Jewish people, that the Lord may be received by his own and his kingdom come in glory, for the deliverance of Germany and peace throughout the world, and finally for all my relatives living and dead and all whom God has given me: may none of them be lost. In late July 1942 the Dutch bishops issued a pastoral letter that was read in all the Catholic parishes of the Netherlands con-demning the deportation of Jews. One week after the bishops' pas-toral letter, on 2 August 1942, the Nazis in a single sweeping operation rounded up all Jewish Catholics, among them Edith and Rosa Stein. On 6 August Edith and Rosa and many other Jewish Catholics were at Westerbork awaiting deportation to the "east." The destination was Auschwitz, where it is believed both Edith and Rosa were executed on 9 August. When the church canonizes someone, it is in essence saying that it is safe to imitate this person. In putting its final approval on Edith Stein by declaring her a saint, the church says to us that we cannot go wrong if we incorporate into our lives the ideals that she professed. Edith Stein gave much to our world by her life and death, and now that she is ranked among the saints in heaven, she is still able to give to us by her example and prayers. I think Edith Stein could easily be the patron saint of academics, school teach-ers, and certainly single people living in the world, since this was her life before she entered Carmel. We may not be called upon to give our lives for our faith, but there are endless possibilities of our practicing virtue as exemplified in Edith Stein's life. First of all, she was a modern woman, one who lived in the world, made her living, and when time permitted spent many hours at home with her family--remember she came from a large fam-ily and her mother died in her eighty-seventh year in 1936. She is a 20th-century woman, one who had a deep regard for the voca-tion of women in our world. I point out her book on woman, Review for Religions where she brings out the vocation of women, their education and professionalism, their life not only in the church, but in civic and national life as well. She had experienced exclusion from a pro-fessorship because she was a'woman--Edith Stein could easily be the patron saint of the feminist movement of our day. Edith Stein is a model for our prayer life. Even from the time before her baptism, daily Mass was on her agenda, and she was very familiar with the other official prayer of the church, the Divine Office, the Breviary, now called the Liturgy of the Hours. She often went to the Benedictine abbey at Beuron and participated in the choral praying of the Liturgy of the Hours. Being there for Holy Week services was something she anticipated yearly. Besides Mass and Office, she was accustomed to spending several hours daily in private prayer before the Blessed Sacrament. She had a great familiarity with Scripture and quotes it often in her letters. Before she entered Carmel, she would accompany her mother to the synagogue and pray the psalms in Latin that her mother was praying in Hebrew. Even in her busy life of teaching, writing, counseling students, giving lectures, and so forth~ she always found time for prayer. I hope that this brief sketch provides some insight into this new saint of ours, one who is very aware of our times. Edith Stein is being proclaimed a martyr and a confessor. At the homily of her beatification, Pope John Paul II declared: "In the extermina-tion camp She died as a daughter of Israel 'for the glory of the Most Holy Name' and, at the same time, as Sister Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, literally, 'blessed b~ the cross.'" The "cause" of her martyrdom, the pope said, was the Dutch bishops' letter of protest against the deportation 6f the Jews. But, he added, because of her great desire to unite with the sufferings of Christ on the cross, she "offered herself to God as a 'sacrifice for genuine peace' and above all for her threatened and humiliated Jewish people." Prudently he left unmentioned her desire to atone for Jewish "unbelief." To many Jewish people the canonization of Edith Stein is an affront. What about the six million Jews who were exterminated and are not saints in the Catholic sense? In my opinion Edith Stein is a Catholic saint who iust happened to have Jewish origins, some-thing she was especially proud of after she came into the church. Edith Stein is a model for our prayer life. July-August 1999 Goldman ¯ Edith Stein Perhaps it is also a mystery. In my own life, being Jewish and Catholic has been a great grace. I have always said that I did not really convert, but just kept going on. Judaism is the beginnings of Christianity, and my own beginnings have been fulfilled in my life. I am sure Edith Stein looked at this in the same way. I close this brief essay with the prayer from the Mass of St. Edith Stein, whose feast will be celebrated.on 9 August: Lord God of our ancestors, you brought St. Teresa Benedicta to the fullness of the science of the cro~s at the hour of her martyrdom. Fill us with that same knowledge; and, through her intercession, allow us always to seek after you, the supreme truth, and to remain faithftil until death to the covenant of love ratified in the blood of your Son for the salvation of all. Grant this through Christ our Lord. Amen. Select Bibliography Works by Edith Stein: Collected Works of Edith Stein. Washington, D.C.: ICS Publications¯ Vol. I: Life in a Jewish Family. Trans. Josephihe Koeppel OCD. Vol. 2: Essays on Woman. Trans. Freda M. Oben PhD. Vol. 3: The Problem of Empathy. Tians. Waltraut Stein PhD. Vol. 4: The Hidden Life. Trans. Waltraut Stein PhD Vol. 5: Self-Portrait in Letters 1916-1942. Trans. Josephine Koeppel OCD. Edith Stein: Selected Writings, ed. Susanne M. Batzdorff. Springfield, Illinois: Templegate Publishers, 1990. On the Problem of Empathy (Zum Problem der Einfiihlung). Trans¯ Waltraut Stein. The Hague: M. Nijhoff, 1964. The Science of the Cross (Kreuzewissenschaf~). Trans. Hilda Graef. Chicago: Regnery, 1960. "Ways to Know God" (Wege der Gotteserkenntnis). Trans. M. Rudolf Mlers. The Thomist, July 1946. Works about Edith Stein: Batzdorff, Susanne M. Aunt Edith: The Jewish Heritage of a Catholic Saint. ~Springfield, Illinois: Templegate Publishers, 1998. Graef, Hilda. Writings of Edith Stein. Westminster, Maryland: Newman Press, 1956. Herbstrith, Waltraud. Edith Stein: A Biography. San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1985¯ ¯ Never Forget¯ Washington, D.C.: ICS Publications, 1998. Oben, Freda Mary, PhD. Edith Stein: Scholar, Feminist, Saint¯ Staten Island: Review for Religious Alba House, 1988). Oesterreicher, John M. Walls Are Crumbling. London: Hollis and Carter, 1953. Pp. 288-329. Woodward, Kenneth L. Making Saints: How the Catholic Church Determines Who Becomes a Saint, Who Doesn't, and Why. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990. Pp. 135-144. Also articles in various periodicals such as America, London Tablet, Spiritual Life, and Carmelite Digest. In Passing In the morning when Jesus walked with the disciples by his side, he encountered the wildflowers, the grains of wheat caught by the breeze, and the songbirds that greeted him with their unending hosannas. Now as I stroll past the flowers , their colors brightening my path and the trees 'beckoning to me to partake of the lilting songs of birds hidden in their branches, I recall all Jesus said and did as he walked the roads of this life, and I try to keep his great love, compassion and zest for life in the tabernacle of my heart. Neil C. Fitzgerald ~dy-August 1999 C. WALKER GOLLAR At Home by the Sea: Isabel Green SCN and the House of Prayer Experience Teponymous hero of Richard Bach's 1970 book Jonathan ingston Seagull at one point employs a rare maneuver in order to test two other seagulls that caught his eye. Jonathan pre-viously has been obsessed with speed, but, upon seeing these two unusual birds, Jonathan "twisted his wings land] .slowed to a sin-gle mile per hour above stall, [but then, much to his surprise, the] two radiant birds slowed with him, smoothly, locked in position. They knew about slow flying.''1 Like Jonathan Livingston Seagull, the Catholic female reli-gious orders of the 1940s and '50s could demonstrate great skill along with an increasing level of professionalism. As institutions they flew at top speeds, even though their abundance of ritual, order, and bureaucracy often seemed to stray far from their sim-ple beginnings. In the 1960s the Second Vatican Council chal-lenged communities of religious not only to get in touch with their roots, but also to recultivate the equivalent of slow flying, that is, prayer and contemplation. One directive that accompanied this challenge called for the creation of houses of prayer. Several men, including Bernard H~iring, Thomas Merton, and David Steindl- Rast, promoted the idea, but religious women effectively saw to its realization. The House of Prayer Movement grew, not out of a set of theological concepts, but rather out of the very real efforts C. Walker Gollar, an assistant professor of church history, writes from the Department of Theology; Xavier University; 3800 Victory Parkway; Cincinnati, Ohio 45207. Review for Religious of women looking to be regrafted onto their ministry's spiritual roots. The progress made by one woman will illustrate how this prayer initiative enriched not only her life, but also the lives of thousands of other religious women heeding the call of the Second Vatican Council. Eleanor Isabel Green was born on 19 June 1921 in Lebanon, Kentucky, the third child and first daughter of Nell Churchill Putnam Green. Nell's husband, a local dentist named William Spalding Green, died in 1926 of a rare heart condition at the age of forty-three, when Isabel was only five. Isabel's mother never remarried; she raised her five children largely by herself. On Sunday evening, 3 November 1935, when only fourteen, Isabel was in a car accident that resulted in the amputation of her right leg below the knee. By all accounts she quickly accepted this hand-icap as part of God's plan and then got on with her life. She grad-uated from St. Augustine High School in Lebanon in June 1938 and then enrolled at Nazareth College, nineteen miles away, at the Motherhouse of the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, Kentucky, just north of Bardstown. Sister Catherine Spalding After her second year, the school's chaplain, Father James McGee, persuaded Isabel to become a novice with the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth. She professed vows on 19 July 1941. Her ancestors included the Spalding family of old Kentucky. Archbishop Martin John Spalding of Baltimore and Bishop John Lancaster Spalding of Peoria, Illinois, were her uncles from two different generations. Because of these connections, Isabel was the first sister in the order allowed to assume the name of their foundress, Mother Catherine Spalding, a cousin of Archbishop Spalding. As Sister Catherine Spalding, Isabel immediately fell into the busyness of religious life. Heeding an older nun's advice that "it's better to wear out than to rust out," over the next quar-ter of a century Isabel served the college as registrar, treasurer, dean, financial-aid advisor, director of admissions, and alumnae and public-relations director.2 She recalled that all these skills, and many others as well, were learned "on the.job.''3 During these years, by her own account, she "worked with and dealt with all kinds of people in all kinds of situations--young and old, reli-gious and lay, foreigners and American, black, white, yellow, and July-August 1999 Gollar ¯ /It Home by the Sea red, rich and poor, socially elite and simple, professionals, etc.''4 Into the 1960s she served, in effect, as president of the college even though she did not hold the title. As tireless service to others began to take its toll on Isabel, she listened intently to the admonitions of her neighbor, the Trappist monk Thomas Merton of Gethsemani, which is located just a few miles from Nazareth. "We have to learn to commune with our-selves," he explained, "before we can communicate with other men [and women] and with God.''s At the same time, however, Merton insisted that we become our true selves only through identification with God as the reason and fulfillment of our exis-tence. This identification emerged out of what Merton called "active contemplation."6 Like countless other religious women at this time, Isabel had become highly professional; to use Merton's terminology, she gained her identity primarily through the actions of her external or false self. She soon came to realize, as Merton had written, that there are "times when in order to keep ourselves in existence at all we simply have to sit back for a while and do nothing.''7 As did many though certainly not all religious, Isabel wel-comed the directives of the Second Vatican Council (1961-1965), which called not only for adaptation to the times; but also for fundamental renewal in the religious life. The Decree on the Appropriate Renewal of the Religious Life (Perfectae caritatis) indi-cated that religious should be thoroughly prepared for their min-istry and also be afforded the opportunity and time for ongoing spiritual, doctrinal, and professional development. Such growth must include a "continuous return to the sources of all Christian life," including Scripture and the Eucharist. As Merton had already argued~ this decree likewise maintained that religious communi-ties should make a genuine commitment not only to apostolic love, but also to contemplation aimed at an "intimate union" with Jesus Christ.8 In response to this conciliar exhortation, theologian Bernard Hiiring CSSR suggested that female orders set aside specific places at each convent that would be devoted to prayer. He had been inspired by Isaiah 56:7: "I will make them joyful in my house of prayer." On 12 March 1967 Marie Goldstein RSHM and Ruth Caspar OP convened a spontaneous workshop at Notre Dame University in order to discuss the feasibility of establishing houses of prayer. Several other sisters, two priests, and one layman Review for Religious attended. The group suggested that these houses should seek to balance the pervasive "thrust towards hyperactivism" with "a cor-responding thrust towards radical prayer." Each house should become a center for the study of mysticism and ascetic theology, including the practice of Yoga and Zen. The spirit of poverty and simplicity should reign, with the houses providing a place for divine energy and peace as well as psychological serenity. With these aims, houses of prayer could constitute, the group said, "one of the greatest hopes for an authentic understanding of church renewal." In the September 1967 issue of Review for Religious, the group published under H~iring's name a report on their meet-ing. H~iring had not attended the gathering at Notre Dame, though he was supportive of the proceedings. His name certainly added weight to the report.9 A New Apostolate Thomas Merton's death at Bangkok on 10 December 1968 accelerated Isabel's own movement away from the convent into a house of prayer. Almost exactly one year earlier, Isabel's mother had passed away. With a heavy heart Isabel attended Merton's funeral in Kentucky, then~reevaluated the course of her own life. After twenty-three years of service to the college, Isabel concluded that she had given all she wan~ed to give to the field of'education. Following the directives of Merton, she asked her community for time to pray. In her late forties, she was overworked and, as she said, was "tired." She knew that the college was going to close anyway, but.also sensed a growing need to care for her own spirit. Completely of her own accord she resigned from the position at Nazareth College in Januai'y 1969. The school closed two years later. ~0 From January to June she lived with a group of Sisters of Charity of Nazareth at the Cardinal Cushing Hospital in Brockton, Massachusetts, where, besides praying, she studied what some were calling HOPE, which stood for House of Prayer Experience. At the end of this time she spent seven weeks in a House of Prayer program sponsored by the Sisters of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Monroe, Michigan. Under the direction of Margaret Brennan and Ann Chester, the IHM sisters had taken the lead in this move-ment. The seven-week program, called HOPE '69, terminated with a retreat under Bernard H~iring. He considered his presence at July-Augv~st 1999 Gollar ¯ At Home by the Sea the end to be providential. After the 136 participants had been living in fourteen different locations for seven weeks, H~iring cel-ebrated the fact that these women had brought to life houses of prayer on their own. During the concluding retreat, one woman suggested that a priest should h'ave been part of each house. To this, H~iring emphatically answered: No-o-o. You are too prone to rely on a priest. This House of Prayer is your charism. Use your own ingenuity to develop it. The best way to produce something new is to trust the charism of those involved, as they are open to the Spirit and to one another. The Holy Spirit does not work through inflexible people.'ll Some men did get involved in the movement, certainly~contributed excellent work, and provided important insights. Ann Chester nonetheless contended "that the leadership in the movement and the main development have been the work of women religious."12 After the experience in Monroe, Isabel ct)nvinced the' Sisters of Charity of Nazareth to offer their support. The 1969 chapter commissioned her to introduce, over six months beginning in September, the House of Prayer Movement to all 110 communi-ties in the order. She stirred up great interest and then, from February to June 1970, while residing back at St. Joseph's Infirmary in Louisville, continued extensive planning. That sum-mer she coordinated the running of~ fourteen houses of. prayer open to various religious communities in the Archdiocese of Louisville. In September 1970 she accepted a two-year grant from the Center for Spiritual Studies at Mount Saviour Benedictine Monastery in Elmira, New York, to assist Brother David Steindl- Rast in the House of Prayer Movement. She lived at the monastery for three months. Gloucester During this time Isabel and Brother David searched for a suit-able place0.for another house of prayer that might s.erve a range of active orders beyond the Sisters of Charity. Since 1957 'the Jesuits had offered high school retreats for boys at Gonzaga, a revamped turn-of-the-century stone mansion that overlooked Brace Cove and the Atlantic Ocean at Eastern Point: in Gloucester, Massachusetts. Next to the retreat house Isabel and Brother David spied a five-bedroom servants' outbuilding that had stood virtually Review for Religious unused for many years. In December 1970 they secured permission from the Jesuits to rent this space for a house of prayer. Isabel and Brother David invited two religious women not of the Sisters of Charity, a Catholic layman, and a Jewish expert in Hatha Yoga, Ravi Baumann, to be a part of the first core group. Over the next few months this team gradually established prayerful routines, while they also cleaned and rearranged the house. Then in late May 1971 Isabel bade adieu to Brother David and the initial core team, which by this time not only had readied the place for its first real guests, but also had begun to discuss what the permanent thrust of the house should be. They had agreed that the door would be open to anyone who wished to come anytime throughout the year, though special emphasis would be placed on the summer, when presum-ably more people could get away from their jobs. Individuals who could stay for up to a year might be asked to become part of new core teams that would take special responsibility for run-ning the house. No 'set fees were charged, though guests would be invited to make donations to help cover operating expenses. In the summer of 1971, for the first time at Gloucester, Isabel sponsored two five-week summer experiences. Seven sisters from at least four different orders con-stituted the first group; several religious men joined other sisters during the second session. They came from all over North America. After this time Isabel decided upon the four essential aspects of her house: simplicity, silence, prayer, and hospitality. Isabel decided upon the four essential aspects of her house: simplicity, silence, prayer, and hospitality. Essential Aspects of the House of Prayer Simplicity was apparent in the furnishing and the free atmo-sphere. The house had no frills, no bedspreads, and no curtains other than fishnet draped across curtain rods. Lobster traps served as tables, while carpet samples donated by a local store decorated the floors of the upstairg hallway and chapel. Since many of the guests who would visit over the next fifteen years left incredibly busy schedules to come to Gloucester, Isabel tried her best to ~u~-August1999 Gollar * At Home by the Sea uncomplicate things for them. "Of intent purpose," she once explained, "not much 'busyness' or 'business' goes on here.''~3 Freed from their jobs and left without much to do, many guests eventually discovered new freedom. Sisters, brothers, priests, and an increasing number of laypersons often found their inner selves again at Gloucester. One woman wrote, "For the first time in my life, I feel free--free to be me.''~4 The simplicity of Gloucester encouraged persons to uncover their true selves in an environ-ment that sanctioned doing nothing. Beyond the simple environment, for Isabel the key to the House of Prayer was the pervasiveness of what she called "life-giv-ing silence." ~s This was not, as a core member once explained, a matter of waiting for what was going to happen next, but rather "a happening in itself."'6 Such silence was rarely found in bustling convents, even though in Isabel's mind silence constituted every-one's "birthright." Conversation at the House of Prayer was lim-ited to the noon meal, while TVs and typewriters were nowhere to be found. One telephone was available, though out of sight in a closet underneath the main stairwell. "If you're going to talk to God," Isabel insisted, "then it's easier when you're not talking to someone else at the same time." ~v The house provided quiet space and time for theological reflection and prayerful discernment, so that visitors might, in Isabel's words, "look at and attempt to answer the questions we all are asking ourselves.''~8 Silence at Gloucester effectively b~came a means to communication both with yourself and with others. One priest, for example, while at the House of Prayer faced for the first time what he called his "shat-tered self." Out on the rocks he discovered "that I was deeply afraid of death and very angry at a 'god' who took my parents in the prime of their lives." He voiced this anger, then in faith began to see that death was not the end he had so desperately feared?9 Other guests often emerged out of their silence, needing to talk to Isabel, and she gladly lent her ear. The group conversations at the noon meal were especially enriching. The Eastern Point House of Prayer never had a name, though, after reading Trina Paulus's Hope for the Flowers,. Isabel once considered calling the place the "Cocoon House.'! Many visitors left Gloucester like beautiful butterflies, reinvigorated and sometimes transformed. Temporary retreat from life's incessant demands encouraged more spirit-filled worldly work.2° In a simple and silent environment, the Eastern Point House Review for Religious of Prayer became, in Isabel's words, primarily "a community of praying people who live in praise of the Lord all day, every day.''2~ In contrast to the complicated, impersonal rote prayers of the con-vent, Isabel encouraged simple encounters with God. Brother David had helped her distinguish between the "prayers" that often get in the way of prayer, and "prayer" as the "total confrontation of the human heart with God.''22 During her months of prepara-tion, Isabel had searched the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures for every name that could be attributed to Jesus and then arranged these titles with a Hare Krishna chant used by Eastern yogis. At Gloucester, with the gong of a melodious bowl, Isabel called guests to gather in the chapel to greet the sunrise, bless the water, and invite God into their hearts with the chanting of this Jesus prayer. This ritual was repeated at noon and often at compline around the living-room fireplace. Each session of prayer ended with the chant "Om shanti," a cry for peace. One core member spoke for many others when she explained that, before her year at Gloucester, prayer "was something I had to do and did, but it seemed never to mean much." After her visit the Jesus prayer became a vital part of her life.23 Many religious traditions met at Gloucester. A small menorah burned in the chapel during Hanukkah, while yoga was adapted to Christianity in order to enrich experiences of prayer. Isabel explained that yoga could be practiced by anyone regardless of his or her faith, for yoga simply encourages relaxation and emotional integration. At this time a Congregational minister and frequent visitor to the House of Prayer, R. Cameron Borton from nearby Rockport, Massachusetts, was happy to note that, while many young persons were leaving Christianity in pursuit of Eastern reli-gions, the House of Prayer demonstrated a way in which both tra-ditions could be integrated. Catholic liturgies were celebrated on most afternoons; these liturgies were, in Isabel's words. "really different.''24 A small group of participants gathered on pillows around a squared piece of drift-wood used as the altar. Gifts from~the sea, as well as a portrait of Robert Kennedy, decorated the walls. The celebrant, wearing only minimal vestments, encouraged everyone to participate especially in the shared homilies. Openly expressing individual concerns kept participants in touch with the larger world community. During these services Reverend Borton witnessed what he called "the Catholic Church in a way free from the overpowering structures, July-August 1999 Gollar ¯ At Home by the Sea massive institudonalism, and impersonalism I had come to associate with the Catholic Church." He saw the House of Prayer as "a very crucial ecumenical bridge for these reasons.''2s To foster reconciliation within the Catholic community, Isabel still insisted that the Eucharist be available for perpetual adoration. For the alarming number of Catholics who had grown alienated from the church during or after the Second Vatican Council, the Eastern Point House of Prayer was a safe place to come. Broken individuals, as well as those simply searching for something more, came to Gloucester. Often, in the chapel before the Eucharist, new direction was found among sisters who might otherwise have lost their vocation, lay people whose only thread of contact with the church was provided at the House of Prayer, and priests in search of the contemplative roots of their ministry. Everyone was welcome at Gloucester. Rooted in Isaiah 55, -Ish_.bel extended her hospitality: "Oh, come to the water, all you who are thirsty; though you have no money, come!. Listen, lis-ten to me, and you will have good things to eat and rich food to enjoy. Pay attention, come to me; listen, and your soul will live." A wide range of persons visited the House of Prayer, including, according to Isabel's ~ecollection, "blacks, Jews, orientals, hus-bands and wives, [the divorced, widowed, and alcoholic], children, married deacons, ministers (both men and women), priests, reli-gious, [seminarians, Pax Christi groups, and Catholic Worker peo-ple].'' 26 As one outsider observed, coming to Eastern Point seemed easy--it was the leaving that was hard.27 Most visitors agreed with one woman who remarked that at Gloucester "I was home.''2~ Wider Significance , With this spirit of simplicity, silence, prayer, and hospitality, the Eastdrn Point House of Prayer quickly became known all .around the country. Brother David had gone on to inspire many other houses of prayer, yet still acclaimed Gloucester as "one of the most successful realizations of the House of Prayer idea.''29 Like most observers, Brother D~vid attributed much of the success of Eastern Point to Isabel's own unique gifts. She was able to inspire many persons who had ~received their "basic training" at Gloucester to start other houses of prayer across the United States and in Canada, Chile, and Ireland as well. Though the House of Prayer Movement lost some steam by the early 1980s, with many houses Review for Relig'ious closing or changing focus, Isabel reported to the Jesuits that over the years very little had changed at Gloucester. She had always been able to maintain the original purpose of the house. The House of Prayer breathed new life into the Jesuit Retreat House next door and also supported other communities like the Wellspring House, started in Gloucester in 1981 by several persons including lay theologian Rosemary Haughton. Occasionally Wellspring did not have enough room to put up some homeless men. Wellspring's director, Nancy Schworer, asked Isabel to help out; Despite her suspi-cion that the Jesuits would not approve, Isabel told Schworer to bring them over, but to cut her lights when she pulled up to the House of Prayer. "I did," Schworer said.3° The Jesuits still grew suspicious of Isabel. Over the years the Jesuits periodically challenged Isabel's use of the property, but despite some battles her days at Eastern Point remained vibrant until she was diag-nosed with terminal cancer in 1985. That summer her family brought her back to Kentucky, to the Nazareth Home in Louisville, where she spent her last days. Once the Jesuits realized she would never return to Gloucester, they began to reno-vate the House of Prayer, eventually mak-ing it an extension of the retreat house, which is what it remains to this day. The Jesuits defended this readaptation, explaining that no one could replace Isabel. Still, the decision to close the House of Prayer must have been linked to periodic suspicions regarding the creative community that existed on their property but was effectively out of their control. Because of its radical openness to God, the House of Prayer invited renewal in ways that undoubt-edly seemed threatening to certain entrenched church str~ctures. Isabel passed away on Wednesday, 15 January 1986. Order was restored at Gloucester, but a certain creativity was lost. In his 1977 novel, Illusions, Richard Bach tells of a creature that dared to let go of the twigs and rocks on the river bottom to which all other creatures previously had clung. The current lifted him free. Thomas Merton, Bernard H~ring, David Steindl-Rast, and the fathers of the Second Vatican Council called for change, To foster reconciliation within the Catholic community, Isabel insisted that the Eucharist be available for perpetual adoration. July-August 1999 Gollar ¯ At Home by the Sea but people in houses of prayer, especially women like Isabel Green, realized the anticipated renewal. Many guests let go of their busy-ness, put behind the patriarchal structures of the past, and tran-scended traditional Catholic boundaries in search of deeper knowledge of themselves. Visitors to houses of prayer replaced detached, regulated prayers with intimate encounters with God, and with all of creation too, especially those who were struggling for personal and social integrity. In. so doing these guests discov-ered new possibilities for their ministries. Like Richard, Bach's courageous river creature, Isabel Green sounded the good news of the Second Vatican Council when, in the silence of the. Eastern Point House of Prayer, she announced: "The [water] delights to lift us free, if only we dare let go.''3~ Notes ~ Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, A Story (New York: Macmillan, 1970), p. 46. 2 Isabel Green papers (hereafter IGP), Isabel Green to Katie Pumam, 10 February 1948, Nazareth, Kentucky. Isabel Green is the aunt of the author of this article; he inherited her papers. 3 IGP, Talk to Jesuits, 7 February 1983 (hereafter Talk), p. 1. 4 IGP, 1974 Resum~ for Brian Duffy SJ, p. 1. 5 Thomas Merton, No Man Is an Island (New York: Harcourt, Brace, and World, 1955), p. 120. 6 Thomas Merton, Woods, Shore, Desert: A Notebook, May 1960 (Santa Fe: Museum of New Mexico Press, 1982), 6 May, p. 10. 7 Thomas Merton, No Man lsan Island, p. 122. 8 Decree on the Appropriate Renewal of the Religious Life (Perfectae caritatis), §§2 and 8. 9 Bernard H~iring, "A Contemplative House: Notes from a Discussion Held at Notre Dame," Review for Religious 26, no. 5 (September 1967): 772; and H~iring, Acting on the Word: The Challenge to Religious Communities in an Age of Renewal (New York: Farrar, Straus, and Giroux, 1968), p. 204. H~ring's book reprinted part of the article and added a few new insights. 10 IGP, Talk, p. 1. " Quoted in Ann Chester, My Journey in the House of Prayer (Monroe, Michigan: Pathways Press, 1991), p. 42. ~2 Chester, MyJourney~ p. 16. ~3 IGP, Open letter of solicitation for "testimonials," by Isabel Green SCN, November 1973, Gloucester, Massachusetts. Review for Religious ~4 IGP, Ann to Isabel Green SCN, 22 January 1975, no place. ~3 IGP, General Statement by Isabel Green SCN directed to Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, 26 February 1984 (hereafter General Statement). ~6 IGP, Michael van der Peer SCJ to Isabel Green SCN, 7 January 1975, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. ~7 Quoted in Gloucester Community News, "Nuns Rise at Dawn for Daily Yoga," 21 November 1975. ~8 IGP, General Statement. 19 IGP, Sister Darlene Kern to Isabel Green SCN, 3 January 1975, St. Pius X Convent, Billings, Montana. 20 IGP, Michael Guimon OSM to Isabel Green SCN, 20 January 1975, Detroit, Michigan. 2~ IGP, Janet L. SSJ to Isabel Green SCN, 11 January 1975, Providence, Rhode Island. 22 IGP, Janine to Isabel Green SCN, undated (c. 1 January 1975). 23 Isabel Green, "Eastern Shoreside House of Prayer," SCNews (April 1973), p. 4; Tina Paulus, Hope for the Flowers (New York: Paulist Press, 1972). 24 IGP, Talk, p. 4 zs Steindl-Rast, "Prayer in the Twenty-first Century," Audiotape by Credence Cassettes, AA2566, 1992. 26 IGP, Jean Kilvin to Isabel Green SCN, 2 February 1975, Halifax, Nova Scotia. 27 IGP, Talk, p. 8. 2.8 IGP, Reverend R. Camer~)n Borton to Isabel Green SCN, 20 January 1975, Rockport, Massachusetts. 29 IGP, Talk, p. 9. Some well-known theologians including Avery Dulles visited the Eastern Point House of Prayer. 30 "At Home by the Sea: Intercommunity Prayer, Often Interfaith Too," Crux of Prayer, February 1976. 3~ IGP, Sheila Ford SCN to Isabel GreenSCN, January 1975, Eastern Point House of Prayer, Gloucester. 32 IGP, David Steindl-Ra~t OSB to Isabel G~'een SCN, 5 January 1975, West Tremont, Maine. 33 Phone interview with Nancy Schworer, 3 March 1998. 34 Richard Bach, Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah (New York: Dell Publishing Co., 1977), p. 17. 57uly-August 1999 consecrated lile DENNIS J. BILLY Vita Consecrata and the Anthropology of the Vows In Vita consecrata (1996), his postsynodal apostolic exhor-tatioff on the consecrated life, Pope John Paul II writes of "the profound anthropological significance of the coun-sels" (§87). He does so while treating the prophetic stance of the consecrated life before some of the difficult chal-lenges facing the church today. This explicit statement of the intricate connection between the theology of the counsels and the character of human existence makes the phrase one of the most important in the entire docu-ment. In it the pope bids us to note not only how the vows relate to our self-understanding, but also how, through them, human understanding itself can be transz formed. My purpose in this essay is to draw out some of the implications of this key anthropological statement. The Right Question What we think about the vows and how we live them tells us something about how we view ourselves and the world we live in. This has always been the case, even long ago in the church's .past when philosophical and theological justifications of the counsels thrived that now seem somewhat dubious and even embarrassing. At one Dennis J. Billy CSSR, a frequent contributor, writes again from Rome, where his address is Accademia Alfonsiana; C.P. 2458; 00100 Roma, Italy. Review for Religio us time, for example, the counsels were seen as a way of rising above the material dimension of human existence and escaping the bonds that the physical world placed on us--including our own sexuality. Lives of perfect chastity, poverty, and obedience were thought to lead religious to a higher plane of existence where they could over-come'bodily passions and be free of attachments to family, pos-sessions, and self-will. Such a conception of the counsels was supported by an ethi-cal dualism in the church's understanding of human existence that manifested itself in a deep distrust of the body and bodily pas-sions. This deep-seated suspicion predated but was galvanized by Augustine's doctrine of original sin, which affirmed its orthodoxy, on the one hand, by condemning the Gnostic equation of matter with evil and Gnostic ascetic rigor and, on the other, by main-taining a close association between sin and sexual intercourse. Traces of this pessimistic estimation of the body and bodily passion (what Augustine called "concupiscence") have filtered through the church's historical memory and continue to exert a subtle influence on our reception and understanding of the counsels. This is so even though many of the anthropological assumptions that presently guide our theological understanding of the vows (and of the doctrine of original sin) are decidedly different. We lack the space to go into any of these assumptions in detail. My point, however, is very simple. In the church's past, every the-ology of the counsels has made certain anthropological assump-tions. The more we are aware of them, the better we can examine them and discern whether they are appropriate expressions of our own self-understanding. The counsels have had and will always have a deep anthropological significance. The question we need to pose is: Which anthropology and what significance? We need to ask these questions today. Vita Consecrata In his apostolic exhortation, the pope describes the anthro-pological significance of the vows in this way: The decision to follow the counsels, far from involving an impoverishment o~ truly human values, leads instead to their transformation. The evangelical counsels should not be considered as a denial of the values inherent in sexual° ity, in the legitimate desire to possess material goods or July-August 1999 Billy * Vita Consecrata and the Anthropology of the Vows to make decisions for oneself. Insofar as these inclinations are based on nature, they are good in themselves. Human beings, however, weakened as they are by original sin, run the risk of acting on them in a way which transgresses the moral norms. The profession of chastity, poverty, and obe-dience is a warning not to underestimate the wound of original sin and, while affirming the value of created goods, it relativizes them by pointing to God as the absolute good. Thus, while those who follow the evangelical counsels seek holiness for themselves, they propose, so to speak, a spir-itual "therapy" for humanity, because they reject the idol-atry of anything created and in a certain way they make visible the living God. The consecrated life, especially in difficult times, is a blessing for human life and for the life of the church. (§87) In this passage John Paul affirms the fundamental goodness of human sexuality, material possessions, and human freedom. At the same time he recognizes the capacity each of us has by reason of our weakened state to abuse these basic human goods and even to idolize them. VChat the evangelical counsels do.is "cut them down to size" by referring them to God, the absolute good of human life, and thus diminishing the exaggerated worth we may be tempted to place in them. This process offers humanity a "spiritual therapy" which, through the operation of grace, promises to heal its wounds and bring about the transformation of all human values. Unfortunately, the pope does not go into detail about how this treatment or ther-apy might function. Nor does he tell us the extent to which this rel-ativizing process takes place. By invoking God as the absolute good to which the counsels point, he simply reminds us that human existence is not an end in itself, but is actually oriented beyond itself. It is precisely by looking beyond itself that humanity is able to discover its truest, deepest meaning. In this presentation of the counsels, the pope affirms (1) the fundamental goodness of all creation, (2) the weakness (and not total corruption) of human nature due to original sin, (3) the abso-lute goodness of God, who alone is worthy of our praise and ado-ration, (4) the eschatological orientation of the vows, which relativize human existence by pointing beyond it and by empha-sizing its inherent creaturely status, and (5) the specific anthro-pological orientation of the vows by virtue of their therapeutic (that is, healing) and transformative (that is, elevating) effect on Review for Religious people's lives. Each of these affirmations is both theological and anthropological in orientation. Together they draw the parame-ters within which the counsels are to be understood and assimilated in our lives. Together they remind us that we are wounded crea-tures capable of being healed and elevated by the grace of a truly plentiful redemption. Within this context the pope speaks about three major chal-lenges facing the church today and how the consecrated life has a prophetic role to play in responding to each of them. The first challenge is "that of a hedonistic culture which separates sexuality from all objective norms, often treating it as a mere diversion and a consumer good and, with the complicity of the means of social communication, justifying a kind of idolatry of the sexual instinct" (§88). Consecrated persons, he states, respond to such values by showing through their lives of chastity that it is possible "to love God with all one's heart, putting him above every other love, and thus to love every creature with the freedom of God" (§88). The second challenge is "that of a materialism which cravespos-sessions, heedless of the needs and sufferings of the weakest, and lacking any concern for the balance of natural resources" (§89). Here again, consecrated persons respond by a life of evangelical poverty, which attests "that God is the true wealth of the human heart" and which "forcefully challenges the idolatry of money, making a prophetic appeal as it were to society, which in so many parts of the developed world risks losing the sense of proportion and the very meaning of things" (§90). The third challenge "comes from those notions of freedom which separate this fundamental human good from its essential relationship to the truth and to moral norms" (§91). To this, con-secrated persons respond th.rough a life which "reproposes the obedience of Christ to the Father and., testifies that there is no contradiction between obedience and freedom" (§91). Consecrated per-sons, in other words, respond to the challenges facing the church in today's world through lives dedicated to the evangelical coun-sels. They do so not alone, but through life in community. This is especially important, since community is "the particular sign, before church and society, of the bond which comes from the same call and the common desire--notwithstanding differences of race and origin, language and culture--to be obedient to that call" (§92). Life in community is nbt only an aid to living the counsels, but also a sign of that toward which both church and July-August 1999 Billy ¯ Vita Consecrata and the Anthropology of the Vows society are tending. It forges the vows into an eschatological sign of the kingdom that is, at one and the same time, already here and yet to come. Further Integration Although the pope provides many fine insights into the anthro-pological dimensions of the consecrated life and the prophetic response it makes to the challenges facing the church today, I can-not help feeling that even further development of his fundamen-tal insights is possible and even necessary for a more thorough understanding of the vows. I would see this development taking place in five basic anthropological dimensions of human existence: the physical, the emotional, the mental, the spiritual, and the social. The Physical. The counsels make sense only if they have a con-crete, physical expression in the world. If they do not, then con-secrated persons need to ask themselves if they are only pretending to lead lives of chastity, poverty, and obedience. It is very easy to talk about the counsels. It is much more difficult to live them and to insure that they have repercussions in the concrete circum-stances of one's life. I am not going into what these concrete expressions might be. They are probably clearer for some counsels (chastity) than others (poverty and obedience)--although not nec-essarily. My point is that we need to take the physical, bodily expressions of the vows seriously. Consecrated persons are called to be chaste, to be poor, to be obedient; and this should be obvi-ous to other people by the lives we lead. We need to be careful not to fall into the trap of self-deception. It is easy for us to ratio-nalize the compromises we make with the counsels. If we are not careful, we can end up being chaste, poor, and obedient in name only. We are called to much more than that. The Emotional. The physical expression of the counsels, how-ever, would be cold and void of meaning if our hearts were not in it. The emotional side of human existence is very complex and, to many, extremely threatening. It too needs to be integrated in a life dedicated to the counsels. If it is not, then there is a strong possibility that we will end up leading double lives, where our out-ward actions do not correspond with our deepest feelings and emo-tions. Integrating our emotions is a lifelong process. One of the mistakes that institutes of consecrated life have made in the past and which, sad to say, some continue to make is to repress or (per- Review for Religious haps worse) completely ignore this dimension of human existence. Like others, consecrated persons need to be taught how to deal with their emotions--those which help them deepen their com-mitment, as well as those which could weaken it--and integrate them into their life commitments. If they are not taught this, they run the risk of just going through the motions or perhaps not even bothering with them. Consecrated persons who have not learned how to integrate their emotions with the rest of their lives are usually very unhappy people who do a good job of making other people unhappy. They can be difficult to get along with in community. The Intellectual. It is important also that we reflect on the counsels regularly--both individually and as a group. Consecrated persons need to keep abreast of the latest developments in the psychological and social sciences with a view to understand-ing more profoundly their own charism within the church. The theology of the counsels has undergone a great deal of change down through the years, especially since the end of the Second Vatican Council. It shall continue to change. If we fail to reflect upon the meaning the counsels have for us, if we fail to read what theologians and spiritual writers are saying about them, if we fail to talk about them among ourselves, then we run the risk of isolating our vowed commitments from the rest of life. When this happens, we can easily get stuck in old patterns of expression that do not help us meet the challenges of the day. Consecrated persons need to be creative in the way they give witness in the world through the counsels. Theological reading, reflection, and conversation are ways of insuring that such ideas will come to us and find expression in our lives and ministry. It is a mistake to think, for example, that religious learn everything they need to know about the vows during the novitiate. In these matters there needs to be lifelong growth; the intellectual component of that growth should not be overlooked. The Spiritual. Consecrated persons also need to be still and let their spirits yearn for God. It is in the deepest dimension of the self that the Spirit of God communes with consecrated persons' own spirits; it is there that they can find strength for living their Consecrated persons need to be creative in the way they give witness in the world through the counsels. ~uly-August 1999 Billy ¯ Vita Consecrata and the Anthropology of the Vows We are social beings by nature. We become who we are called to be through our interaction with others. vowed life. By professing the evangelical counsels, consecrated per-sons seek to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. This life of imitation is not meant to be a cold, external effort.'We are much too weak for that. Rather, it involves an intimate relationship with the Spirit of Jesus, which propels us to live the way he did and to do so with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. For this to happen, conse-crated people need to be men and women of contemplation. Surely there are many forms of prayer; both as individuals and as communities, we favor certain ones. Among these forms we should not forget the contemplative dimension of our lives. On the contrary, we should give it priority of place. If we do not allow ourselves to be still and to listen, if we do not know how to allow our spirits to yearn, to groan, to breathe, then we are overlooking in our prayer a tremendous help in living the counsels. It is through contemplation that we gradually tame, and integrate into the rest of our lives, the deep, inordi-nate passions that affect us by reason of our weakened state. Through contemplation our spirits gradually become chaste, poor, and obedient to the movements of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Without it, it will become all the more difficult for us to live "in the Spirit" and to see how our vows fit into such a life. The Social. We live the vows individually, but also in community. Consecrated persons cannot go it alone. They need the support of others to help them along. They should be encouraged to have close, intimate friends with whom they feel free and secure enough to share their problems and difficulties. They also need the support of a wider circle of friends and acquaintances. Most of all, they need community. We are social beings by nature. We learn about ourselves and we become who we are called to be through our interaction with others. It is through our interaction with others that we learn the meaning of the counsels and receive help to live them. Consecrated persons are oriented toward community life because the counsels themselves are rooted in a communal under-standing of human existence. If we overlook the social dimensions of our lives as consecrated persons, it is almost certain that we will be overlooking in our lives some aspect of what it means to be chaste, poor, and obedient. Living the counsels and living in com-munity are closely tied. This holds true even for the hermit, who Review for Religious lives alone, but whose life and actions lie hidden in the contem-plative heart of the church. These dimensions are important for living the counsels. That is not to say, however, that they will be understood and incorpo-rated in the same degree in every life dedicated to living them. Differences in personality, family background, and cultural prove-nance all come into play, as do such other factors as level of edu-cation, religious training, and long-standing community traditions. The goal for consecrated persons should be to try to integrate all of these elements into their lives, adverting to them and giving them appropriate expression. To overlook some of them or, worse, simply to refuse to take them into account reveals a severe defi-ciency in living the life of the counsels. Counsels and Challenges All of this helps us to view John Paul's emphasis on the anthro-pological dimensions of the counsels and the challenges facing the church today in a slightly different light. For one thing, it helps us to see the challenge beneath the challenges that face consecrated persons in the church today. The counsels must penetrate every part of our lives, not simply those we find most convenient or accommodating to our needs. We will not be able to give a true prophetic response to the hedonism, materialism, and individual-ism in the world today if we exclude the counsels from any of the dimensions I have mentioned--the physical, the emotional, the intellectual, the spiritual, and the social. If we do, we compart-mentalize the counsels, allowing them to take shape in one or more areas of our lives, but not in all of them. When this hap-pens, we wind up with only a halfhearted commitment to the life of chastity, poverty, and obedience. The result is a diminution of our prophetic call. People will refuse to take us seriously because we do not take ourselves seriously. They will only half-believe the words we say, because they will be convinced that we only half-believe them ourselves. John Paul's reflection on the anthropological significance of the counsels can be applied in a reflective and consistent manner to each of these five dimensions. When this is done, an even deeper sense of the anthropological (ignificance of the counsels results. The goodness of creation, foi" example, extends not only to our physical well-being but to the emotional, the intellectual, the spir- July-August 1999 Billy ¯ Vita Consecrata and the Anthropology of the Vows itual, and the social as well. All of these dimensions, though they are weakened by the results of humanity's primordial fall and seem insignificant in comparison with God the Absolute Good, never-theless have an eschatological significance and hold promise of being both healed and elevated by God's plentiful redeeming grace. It is in these contexts that the counsels deepen our understand-ing of human existence and help us see the whole of life as radically dependent on God. This is what consecrated persons give witness to, live their lives for, and die for. Tidal Wave - Papua New Guinea 7 July 1998 Deadly as a cobra, hooded wide The tidal wave lifts ten meters And sweeps across the Bay Swallowing tall pandanus palms, Crossed timbers of the villages, Once the necklace of the North. Midst the flotsam and jetsam A woman, one foot torn away, grasps a tree top And suddenly gives birth. A scream. And a small brown babe Is lifted above the swirl. "Oh God[ Where are You?" and the wood replies: "He has known the waves of sin His feet were spiked with pain And He, too, died upon a tree." Mary O'Neil RSM Review for Religious NIHAL ABEYASINGHA Authority among Religious in South Asia T[superior general of a male international religious con-gation, after visiting several units of the insftute in South Asia, said he found it difficult to understand the defiance of author-ity and the backbiting that go on in this area. He added that his lack of understanding of this phenomenon was perhaps due to his own foreign cultural perspective. Such an observation from a man of wide experience should at least pose a question to Asian religious. Every culture functions on certain assumptions. They are sel-dom clearly articulated, but they are real and they are operative. For example, in a culture that links equality with freedom, there is a growing awareness that men have, in fact, been afforded greater freedom than women. In order to repair the imbalance, people seek to equalize the position of the sexes by using equality as their criterion. It is not difficult to generate enthusiasm in the public forum for a movement towards equality. Another culture, however, could work from a different assumption. It could consider women to be worthy of much esteem as members of society because of their special role to give birth to and nurture new life in that society. This culture would express that esteem by providing the security of a stable mar-riage and home and by linking this to a limited set of achieve-ments expected of every woman. VChat we tend to forget is that Nihal Abeyasingha CSSR wrote about an approach to refounding in our July-August 1998 issue. Hi

Issue 58.3 of the Review for Religious, May/June 1999. ; f 0 r relig i ous Christian Heritages and ,Contemporary Living MAY-JUNE 1999 * VOLUME 58 ¯ NUMBER 3 Review for Religioug is a forum for shared reflection on the lived experience of all who J~nd that the church's rich heritages of spirituality support their personal and apostolic Christian lives. The articles in the journal are meant to be informative, practical, historical, or inspirational, written from a tbeological or spiritual or sometimes canonical point of view. Review for Religious (ISSN 0034-639X) is published bi-monthly at Saint Louis University by the Jesuits of the Missouri Province. Editorial Office: 3601 Lindell Boulevard ¯ St. Louis, Missouri 63108-3393. Telephone: 314-977-7363 ¯ Fax: 314-977-7362 E-Mail: foppema@slu.edu Manuscripts, books for review, and correspondence with the editor: Review for Religious ° 3601 Lindell Boulevard ° St. Louis, MO 63108-3393. Correspondence about the Canonical Counsel department: Elizabeth McDonough OP P.O. Box 29260; ~,rashington, D.C. 20017 POSTMASTER Send address changes to Review for Religious ° P.O. Box 6070 ¯ Duluth, MN ~5806. Periodical postage paid at St. Louis, Missouri, and additional mailing offices. See inside back cover for information on subscription rates. ©1999 Review for Religious Permission is herewith granted to copy any material (articles, poems, reviews) contained in this issue of Review for Religious for personal or internal use, or for the personal or internal use of specific library, clients within the limits outlined in Sections 107 and/or 108 of the United States Copyright Law. All copies made under this permission must bear notice of the source, date, and copyright owner on the first page. This permission is NOT extended to copying for commercial distribu-tion, advertising, institutional promotion, or for the creation of new collective works or anthologies. Such permission will only be considered on written application to the Editor, Review for Religious. Editor Associate Editors Canonical Counsel Editor Editorial Staff Advisory Board David L. Fleming sJ Philip C. Fischer SJ Regina Siegfried ASC Elizabeth McDonough OP Mary Ann Foppe Tracy Gramm Jean Read James and Joan Felling Kathryn Riehards FSP Joel Rippinger OSB Bishop Carlos A. Sevilla SJ David Werthmann CSSR Patricia Wittberg SC Heritages and Contemporary Lfiv~ng MAY-JUNE 1999 * VOLUME58 * NUMBER3 contents 230 251 women religious Charism or Deep Story? Towards Understanding Better the 19th-Century Origins of American Women's Congregations Margaret Susan Thompson suggests that emphasis on "charism" may not be helpful in explaining the ,founding experiences of many women's communities in 19th-century America, and identifies some of the reasons why "deep stow" may be a more usable concept. The Need for Self-Criticism: Affirmative Comments Elizabeth McDonough OP suggests that the time has come for United States religious women to initiate some possibly difficult but genuinely constructive self-criticism and some corrective change of course in various aspects of postconciliar renewal. 261 266 women and the church The Annuario Pontificio: The Vatican's "Pontifical Yearbook" and a Recent Editorial Decision Larry N. Lorenzoni SDB updates a bit of history about who are included in the Vatican's "Pontifical Yearbook." Women and Canon Law Joan A. Range ASC investigates the extraordinary recent history of women entering the field of canon law. Review for Religious 286 295 mary Five Faces of Mary Robert P. Maloney CM offers five Marian faces as a way of meditating on the rich, varied tradition surrounding the Virgin Mary. The Temple and the Journeying: Mary of Sorrows Joel Giallanza CSC draws directions for our spiritual life's journey from reflecting on the traditional seven sorrows of Mary. 3O5 314 witnessing Blessed Maria Droste: A Good Shepherd Motif in Sacred Heart Spirituality Juliana Devoy RGS tells the story of Blessed Maria Droste, which gives witness to her vision of God's merciful love reflected in Sacred Heart spirituality. Echoes from My Fifty-sixth Annual Retreat Robert F. Drinan sJ shares reflections on God!s grace stirring thoughts and feelings in a retreat. 228 32O 325 departments Prisms Canonical Counsel: Visitation by External Authorities Book Reviews May-.~une 1999 227- Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. --John 14:9 Wean talk about God in some very un-Christian ways. As we "dress up" God in the various cultural and time-bound categories of our human world, we are inevitably limited, in both our reasoning and our imagining. When we get swept up into a highly intellectualized philosophical approach, we find our-selves projecting a vague abstract and sometimes fright-ening power and a childishly understood world. God without a face. Although Jesus lived within human limitations of time and culture, he dared to speak "with authority" about the reign of God in images and parables that tore down the temple curtain of separation to let people catch some glimpses of God that are new. The synoptic Gospels--Mark, Matthew, and Luke--talk of a celebra-tory invitation to a banquet, of a shepherd doggedly searching out a lost sheep, so that we come to know and relate to God with fresh affective response. But the Gospel of St. John stands out as the Gospel of the God revealed to us by Jesus as "Father." Few are the chapters in John's Gospel that do not have explicit reference to God as Father. The qualities of this Father-God tumble out. This God is the God of life: "Just as the Father who has life sent me and I have life because of the Father." Jn 6:44. This is a God who works: "My Father is at work until now, and I am Review for Religious' at work as well" Jn 5:17. This is a God who teaches: "My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent me" Jn 7:16; "I say only what the Father has taught me" Jn 8:28. This is a God who cultivates growth: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine-grower" Jn 15:1. Above all, this God is the one who loves: "The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him" Jn 3:35; "the one who loves me will be loved by my Father"Jn 14:21. In retreat notes published as a book, The Ignatian Exercises in the Light of St. John, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini SJ reflects that a way of considering the Fourth Gospel is to see it as a gospel of prayer, It is prayer not just from people responding to Jesus as we do so often in our prayer lives, but prayer also from Jesus to the one he lovingly calls Abba-Father. From Jesus We learn how we are meant to grow in our relationship with God. And so this Gospel, in teaching a way of relating to God for the mature Christian, is paradoxically the Gospel most insistent in remind-ing us that we are still "children" who have--and who need for our very existence--a Father. We are called, in imitation of Jesus, to relate to a God from whom we have everything--all that we are and all that we would call "our own." This is the God that Jesus describes as the One apart from whose words he himself has nothing to say, the God apart from whose works he has no work to do. As Christian evan-gelizers, then, we need to follow the example of Jesus so that what we say flows from our union with this God. As Christian ministers we need to strive that all our deeds and good works flow from the baptismal grace given by God that makes us all very special children, God's sons and daughters. It is from this God we have come--a Source we call by Jesus' word Father-- and it is to this God we direct our whole life as the One we, with John, identify as Love. If we let the words of St. John enter more deeply into our very being, we will find ourselves being shaped and molded by the reality behind our personally limited understandings of God as Father and God as Love. This is the revealed God of Scripture we seek to know and make known ever better in this year dedi-cated to God the Father. David L. Fleming SJ '229 May-June 1999 MARGARET SUSAN THOMPSON Charism or Deep Story? Towards Understanding Bett@r the 19th-Century Origins of American Women's Congregatigns Since the Second Vatican Council, the term charism increasingly has become associated with the identity, and .even the integrity, of religious congregations.1 Literally dozens of published essays explore the term's meaning and significance~ A substantial number of the community websites created in recent years contain a page about-- or at least an allusion to--the group's "charism," as do postconciliar constitutions, mission statements, and voca-tion paraphernalia. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church has not been silent either, particularly during the current papacy. For example, in its 1983 document "Essential Elements in the Church's Teaching on Religious Life 'as Applied to Institutes Dedicated to Works of the Apostolate," the Sacred ~Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes used ~the term ten times, and it shows up a whopping eighty-six times in//Tta con-secrata, John Paul II's apostolic letter in response to the 1994 Synod on Religious Life. . Ironically, the word itself is not: to be found in Perfectae caritatis, the council document which treats the Margaret Susan Thompson PhD has written and lectured extensively on the history of women religious in the United States. She is associate professor of history and political sci-ence at Syracuse University; Department of History; 145 Eggers Hall; Syracuse, New York 13244. Review for Religious "Adaptation and Renewal of Religious Life." In fact, its first appearance in a magisterial treatise seems to be in 1971's Evangelica testificatio. Addressing religious themselves, Paul vI speaks of the "charisms of your founders" and the "charisms of the various insti-tutes" (§§11, 32), assuming, probably with justification, that the terminology would be familiar to his intended audience. But, for those in doubt about this nomenclature, Paul cites Perfectae cari-tatis §2b, which calls upon members of religious institutes to respect their "particular characteristics and work" and "their founders' spirit and special aims" as they proceed with their groups' renewal. Paul extends the discussion in Mutuae relationes (1978), using the term nineteen times and declaring, among other things, that "the very charism of the founders (Evangelii nuntiandi, §I 1) appears as an 'experience of the Spirit'" and that "every authentic charism implies a certain element of genuine originality and of special initiative for the spiritual life of the church" (§12). By now, therefore, one would assume that the meaning of a term so widely and authoritatively used would be clear, and one might also assume that the reality of the thing known as "charism" would be easily identifiable and inherent to religious life. Indeed, this seems to be implicit in various references from the two doc-uments of the current pontificate mentioned above. The first para-graph of "Essential Elements" refers to "the founding charism of a particular institute" and later even says that, through its appro-bation of a community's canonical status, the "God-given ministry of the hierarchy" has ratified the "authentic discernment of its founding charism" (§41):2 The references in Vita consecrata are too numerous even to summarize, but here are a few of them: "charisms proper to the various institutes," "fidelity to the found-ing charism," "[an institute's] Rule and constitutions [are approved] in accordance with a specific charism confirmed by the church," and "the uniqueness of their different ~harisms' (§§19, 36, 37, 53). Surely, then, "charigm" is intrinsic to religious life. Every con-gregation must have one, unique to that particular institute and traceable directly to its individual founder., But the rationale for this essay is precisely that none of the assumptions above seems necessarily to be the case. It is my con-tention that, in much of its current usage, charism is a term of such vagueness and ambiguity as to be almost meaningless. More impor-tantly, even if we can accept the connotations that John Paul II apparently regards as definitive (and he is hardly alone in this atti- May-~tune 1999 -231 . Thompson ¯ Charism or Deep Story? tude), I would argue that a good many of the women's apostolic congregations that ministered in the 19th and early 20th century in the United States have no such thing as a "charism" according to this understanding. Thus, if, as John Paul II suggests, "charism" is an "essential element" of religious life, the very legitimacy of these congregations seems to be east into question--surely a seri-ous, perhaps even disastrous, consequence for the groups involved. What is needed, therefore, is some alternative to charism, some concept that is more in accord with the historical reality of many institutes and legitimates their experience and continued existence. It is unlikely that my consideration here will arrive at any defini-tive conclusions, but I hope to suggest some alternative ways of thinking that may prove useful in framing the historical and cur-rent context of sisters' experiences and perhaps assist in the pro-cess of religious revitalization and renewal. At the very least, from my ongoing research into women's religious life in the 19th-cen-tury United States, I think I can explain why the emphasis on "charism" in contemporary thinking about religious life is prob-lematic and historically unjustified, at least as a universal norm. Before we proceed, a few assumptions need to be made explicit. First, I believe that some congregations do have a charism and that in some cases it is traceable, at least in some degree, to an individual "founder." In other instances, its origin may lie with a founding group of individuals (a "founding generation"), while in still others a charism may have emerged later in a community's history--or a buried, neglected, or even repudiated charism may be discerned or refurbished by subsequent generations. Second-- and in this I am confirmed by the usages of several scholars as well as by both Paul vI and John Paul II--I believe there is also some-thing generic that can be called "a charism of apostolic religious life." Third, the lack of a particular charism does not render an institute (or its members or ministries) less significant, "spiritual," or legitimate than those which do have such a "gift":--just as the existence of one does not indicate superiority or greater validity. Indeed, given that the use of the term charism in connection with religious life is of such recent provenance, its application to past experience--particularly if it is considered to be some sort of uni-versal norm--actually may be ahistorically anachronistic. The word charism, of course, is Greek and means "gift." In contemporary Christian usage, it refers specifically to a spiritual gift, that is, "a free gift of grace." Moreover, virtually all Catholic Review for Religious scholars agree that a charism is not solely for the benefit of its direct recipient; rather, "it is a supernatural gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit for building up the body of Christ" or, in simpler terms, a "divine spiritual gift to individuals or groups for the build-ing up of the community." Within the context of religious life, the charism presumably is received initially by an institute's founder, who transmits it on to her followers. It is this "gift of grace" which is to imbue the community with its unique character or identity; as Richard McBrien puts it, "the unique gift of the founder., is given to every member from one generation to the next."3 Between 1727 and 1917, at least 422 Catholic apostolic con-gregations of women religious were active within the United States.4 Some were short-lived, but four hundred of them contin-ued to exist in 1917, and the overwhelming majority are extant today. Of the 422, a total of 273 belonged to one of ten large reli-gious "families," each of which could trace its birth to a particu-lar founder or pair of founders (see Table 1). Thus, each of these could be presumed to be a beneficiary of the. "charism" of the per-son or persons with whom that family began. Moreover, many of these groups also regard themselves as having their own particular founders, who "re-visioned" the familial identity in some way that imparted a special or distinct character to it.s Table 1 U.S. Al~ostolic Women's Communities andTheir Religious "Families" . FAMILY FOUNDER(S) NO. OF COMMUNITIES Benedictine Benedict, Scholastica 32 Carmelite (reform) Teresa of Avila 3 Dominican Dominic 30 Franciscan Francis 54 St. Joseph Jean Pierre Medaille 27 Mercy Catherine McAuley 65 Presentation Nano Nagle 7 Ursuline Angela Merici 30 Vincentian Vincent de Paul and Louise de Marfllac 10 Visitation Francis de Sales and Jane Frances de Chantal 15 May-June 1999 233 Thompson ¯ Charism or Deep Story? No one can or will deny that these communities have---since their founding, in most cases--been known by one of these "fam-ily names." Still, this begs some important questions. How many of even these congregations can be said to have been "birthed" into the charism of their family forebears? How many incorpo-rated themselves into a particular family with explicit awareness of the spiritual and ecclesial consequences? How many can assert with confidence that their history is one of explicit and consistent acknowledgment of and fidelity to that charism? In other words, to what extent did "charism" traditionally play a part in shaping the identities of at least some of these institutes? Alternatively, how many of them became, in fact, "generic" apostolic entities doing good work, composed of good (even holy) people, but ~undistin-guished by any familial or "particular" spiritual identity that would differentiate them clearly from others of theoburgeoning number of women's religious orders that came increasingly to "do their thing" in the United States in, the 19th and 20th centuries? Finally, most of the nearly one hundred fifty other women's congregations I have studied also assert that they have particular "founders' charisms." Are all of them justified in their claims? It naturally is impossible to provide in one article definitive answers to any of these questions. Instead, I intend to offer some representative examples from the histories of the communities I have studied, examples that I believe will demonstrate some of the major problems with the assumptions about charism that charac-terize so much of what has been said about religious life in the past quarter century. Let me emphasize thavnone of these exam-ples is unique; rather, each is suggestive of all-too-typical congre-gational experiences. Each indicates some aspect of why I believe that the notion of a "founder's?' or "founding" charism is so prob-lematic and why the notion may, in fact, do more to obscure the realities of women's religious history than to illumine it. The Most Common Scenario: Instrumentalism Throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Catholic population of the United States exploded. As early as 1850, Catholics constituted the largest single body of believers in the nation, a ranking they have maintained ever since. But, hardly monolithic, they consisted of an ecer growing number of proudly distinct (and sometimes mutually antagonistic) ethnic groups, many Review for Religious of which came to the New World specifically to escape religious persecution or to preserve their cultural identities. Most were poor when they arrived in their new nation; few except the Irish spoke English. Their secular and Protestant neighbors greeted them with suspicion and often with overt hostility. Clearly, these were peo-ple with numerous and diverse needs to be met, and church lead-ers, beleaguered and fearful of "leakage" from the faith, sought ways to respond effectively. It is not surprising, therefore, that dozens of institutes were started in or brought to the United States to provide practical ser-vices, often to specific subgroups of Catl~olics. Both individual community histories by the score and various more com-prehensive works attest con-vincipgly-- and, before 1965, unapologetically--to what I call the instrumental motivation for so many foundations: to teach the ever growing number of school-age children,6 to provide healthcareand relief (primarily, of course, but not only to Catholics), and, increasingly, to work with persons from partic-ular immigrant groups who needed ministers who understood both their languages and their traditions and could both foster cultural survival and ease the pro-cess of Americanization. Others were started for equally functional purposes: to do housework for priests or to offer catechetical instruction to children outside the parochial schools. Consider, for instance, the following accounts of foundings, taken almost randomly from the 1964 edition of Thomas McCarthy's Guide to the Catholic Sisterhoods of the United States-- perhaps the most successful comprehensive "vocation book" ever published in this country:7 [Sisters of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin:] A school, but no teachers, and none to be had from any religious commu-nity in spite of numerous requests by Father Jean Harper. ¯. He decided to act upon his curate's suggestion: "We can-not obtain nuns? Then, let us make some!" And so the con-gregation came into existence . . (p. 192). Dozens of institutes were started in or brought to the United States to provide practical services, often to specific subgroups of Catholics. 235--- May-~une 1999 Thompson * Charism or Deep Story? [Franciscans of Tiffin, Ohio:] Father Joseph L. Bihn . . . founded this Franciscan community to help him care for the many children orphaned as a result of the Civil War. Three of his parishioners, Elizabeth Schaeffer, a widow, and her two daughters, formed the nucleus of this congregation. (p. 271). [Sisters of Sts. Cyril ahd Methodius:] The early 1900s was a critical period for the many immigrants from Slovakia who setded in the United States. Father Matthew Jankola of the Scranton diocese was keenly aware that this adjustment required not only the building of schools but also of secur-ing sisters to staff them. As a result of his efforts, this dioce-san congregation was established in 1900 (p. 189). [Sisters of the Holy Family, San Francisco, California:] "I have another work for you to do," Archbishop Joseph S. Alemany OP said to young Elizabeth Armer when she came to consult him about entering a contemplative order. The archbishop unfolded to the future Mother Dolores his plans for an insti-tute to give religious instruction to children who could not attend Catholic schools. (p. 295). [Little Daughters of St. Joseph:] Father Antoine Mercier, a Sulpician priest., who desired to establish a congregation of nuns who would consecrate themselves to the spiritual and material welfare of the clergy and seminarians, founded this community with the assistance of Miss de Lima Dauth, the co-foundress. On April 26, 1857, both began this eminently apostolic work of helping priests and seminarians by means of a life of prayer, self-denial, and manual labor (p. 36). [Sisters of Charity of the Incarnate Word, Houston, Texas:] "A multitude of sick and infirm seeks relief at your hands" was the irresistible plea of Rt. Rev. C.M. Dubuis when he went to France to seek volunteers to help him in his missionary labors in Galveston, Texas. Three young women answered his appeal and with these he founded the congregation in 1866. The community, which built the first Catholic hospital in the state, has papal approval and conducts twenty-six insti-tutions. (p. 120). 236 Where, in any of these stories, can one discern a charism? Ministry, yes; inspiring service to needy people, certainly. But two obstacles to discerning a "charism of the founder" recur in each instance. First, the reason each community came into being was functional, not charismatic. And, second, at least as these accounts would have it, the initiating impulse came not from the women who would offer to respond, but from clerics--men who, by def- Review for Religious inition, were persons outside of the community itself and thus hard to recognize as part of the group's intrinsic "lived tradition.''s Random Rule Selection and the Problem of Charism Every autonomous congregation has its own constitution, but, properly speaking, only four Rules (St. Basil, St. Augustine, St. Benedict, and St. Francis) were approved by Rome, and every com-munity had to select one of these as the basis for its organization and gov-ernance. 9 This helps to explain, for example, why so many women's con-gregations belonged to the Franciscan "family"--generally speaking, it was considered the most "flexible" of the four and therefore the easiest to adapt to a variety of instrumental purposes. To assume, then, that every commu-nity designated as "Franciscan" also and intentionally embodied a Franciscan charism requires an enor-mous leap of faith; in fact, even some founders who wanted to be "Franciscan" sometimes began by organizing themselves by another Rule. Two contrasting examples will illustrate the problem. First, there is that of the Sisters of St. Francis of Perpetual Adoration, originally founded in Olpe, Westphalia, in 1859 (and eventually established in the U.S. in 1875). The founder, Mother Mary Theresia (Aline) Bonzel, had great devotion to St. Francis and wanted to be Franciscan, but one of her co-founders, Clara Pfaender, had previously belonged to a con-gregation which followed the Augustinian Rule. We may let the community's first historian, an unusually forthright individual, take the story from there: Aline Bonzel wanted the Franciscan Rule by all means. But seemingly she was not well acquainted with the basic Rule of religious orders . Clara Pfaender knew the Augustinian Rule from her convent days with the Sisters of Christian Charity. She felt she could write a constitution based on that Rule. Since she was the superior and responsible for admit-ting candidates into the community, it s~emed advisable, in this very beginning, that she have the liberty to employ her To assume that every community designated as "Franciscan" also and intentionally embodied a Franciscan charism requires an enormous leap of faith. 237 May-June 1999 Thompson ¯ Charism or Deep Story? full experience in religious life. Only on this basis can one explain how a community which uniformly desired to live according to the Franciscan Rule began with the Augustinian Rule, but with the intention of later converting to the Franciscan Rule. In this procedure the character of the times can readily be detec(ed. Many most likely saw basically lit-de difference whether one lived according to the Augustinian or the Franciscan Rule. The development of a specialized spirituality came later and in many instances vqry much later. As this author put it elsewhere: So many religious congregations came into being in the 19th century, and many chose their Rule by chance. Charitable activity called, and congregations were founded to fill the need to serve God and man. With some it seemingly made no difference what religious Rule was followed, for all were good and sanctifying~ . . . Foundations flourished which at first simpl); set up the aciivities and objectives of the apos-tolate and later wrote the rule and constitutions. Often enough at the very beginning it was purely accidental rather than a conscious effort that one or the other rule took hold.l° Contrast this with the experienqe of the Sisters of St. Joseph of the Third Order of St. Francis (SSJ-TOSF). Their history has been recounted superbly in two volumes by Josephine Marie Peplinski; basically, the group owed its origins to ethnic conflict within the School Sisters of St. Francis. The School Sisters were predominantly German, and the founding SSJ-TOSFs were Polish members who, after many incidents distressing to them, decided in 1901 to break off and found their own congregation. They took the Rule and name of "Franciscan" with them, but their self-claimed identity was fundamentally Polish. Indeed, as Peplinski has docu-mented, part of the problem was that, for its first few decades of existence, the community's leadership was passed back and forth between two very different individuals, one of whom (Mother Mary F~licia Jasku, lski) had a real devotion to St. Francis, while the other (Mother Mary Boleslaus Rybicki) "moved the congre-gation toward a popular Jesuit interpretation of obedience and authority--military in tone." As Peplinski puts it, "She exerted great influence in developing the spirituality of the congregation throughout her lifetime . . . and afterwards through those who adopted her ideals. It is ~v0rthy to note that until 1940, fourteen years after Mother Mary Boleslaus's death, almost all of the retreat masters invited to th~ congregation were Jesuits." Peplinski describes tlie congregation during its first sixty years as a Review for Religious "Franciscan sisterhood adapted to the post-Tridentine paradigm of religious life serving the American immigrant church . A basic problem was that canon law rather than the gospel law of love was set up as the ideal." In fact, not until after Vatican II, under Peplinsld's own leadership (she led the congregation 1968-1976), did the SSJ-TOSFs make a concerted and systematic effort to dis-cover what "bein~ Franciscan:' was all about. But, while they in fact embrace a Franciscan spirituality as they enter into their sec-ond century, is it at all accurate, despite their name, to regard it as their "founding charism"?II What Happened to the Benedictines? .Peplinski's congregation was not the only one "adapted to the post-Tridentine paradigm of religious life serving the American immigrant church." What happened to the Benedictines was equally dramatic and potentially of even more profound conse-quence to what they were supposed to be all about. It is a com-plicated story, ably told from somewhat different perspectives by Judith Sutera, M. Incarnata Girgen, and Ephrem Hollermann.12 The first nuns came to St. Marys, Pennsylvania, in 1852 from Eichst~itt, Bavaria, where they had lived in a way that permitted full cenobitic, monastic observance, including recitation of the Divine Office and solemn vows according to the Benedictine formulary: stability, conversatio ("conversion of life"), and obedience, However, within less than ten years after their arrival in the United States, a complicated series of events ensued, resulting in fundamental alterations to their tradition. Stated simply, the right to take solemn vows was abrogated (because the women were unable to observe strict enclosure), pressures of "life in mission territory" (as well as the elimination of solemn vows) led to "permission" to miti-gate the requirement to recite the full Divine Office (allowing substitution of the Little Office of th~ Blessed Virgin Mary, parts only of the Divine Office, or ~ven rosaries and other devotional practices), the jurisdiction of community leaders was made sec-ondary to that of diocesan, bishops (who could, among other things, approve or reject the election of prioresses and the admission of new members--something unheard of, normally, in Benedictinism). Even the simple vows the women now professed wer~ not neces-sarily the Benedictine ones. As Sutera explains, some took the tra-ditional vows, some took the three vows common to other May-June 1999 Thompson ¯ Charism or Deep Story? communities (poverty, chastity, obedience), Others took five vows and some four (not stability, because there were rumors that the women were to be reorganized into a large congregation complete with provinces, regional novitiates, and so forth). She summarizes the consequences this way: "What Rome had done was to create a canonical anomaly, a group of unenclosed monastic women who retained the right to the designation of 'O.S.B.' This right implied some recognition that they were nuns of the ancient order rather than sisters of a later congregation despite their simple vows. However, it left them as technically neither one nor the other. [Practically speaking,] they faded into the mass of apostolic orders." 13 Sutera and Hollermann's books, especially, are potent wit-nesses to the extent to which American Benedictines struggled over the following century both to respond 'to the ministerial and apostolic demands placed upon them and to remain as faithful as they could to their Benedictine heritage. Both accounts verify the existence and persistence of Benedictine charism, however "re-visioned" in the American context, despite the many and substan-tial obstacles put in the sisters' way. Thus, when Vatican II came along, with its call for renewal in the spirit of the founders, the Benedictines had a strong foundation on which they could rely. Nonetheless, the disparate experiences of the various autonomous foundations during the years between their foremothers' arrival in the U.S. and the postconciliar period raise important questions about how, and the extent to which, "fidelity to charism" shaped the historical reality of American Benedictine sisters. If one reads the descriptions of them in McCarthy's 1964 compendium, for instance, they seem virtually indistinguishable from the plethora of apostolic institutes that surrounded them.14 "Charisms" Buried, Repudiated, or Denied At least the Benedictines had a strong tradition, never com-pletely lost, that they could revitalize when called to do so by the Second Vatican Council, Others, however, were not so fortunate, The situations of those who chose their traditions randomly, or who were founded for largely instrumental purposes, have already been discussed. But what about those who did have more charismatic founders, whose legacies, for various reasons, were obscured or even rejected? Probably the most famous such case is that of the Institute Review for Religious of the Blessed Virgin Mary, founded by the remarkable Mary Ward in 1609; not until the papacy of Pius XI! were they able to claim her officially as the founder of their congregation. But other instances pertain more directly to the U.S. Catholic experience; here I will refer to just three of them (by no means the only ones). As late as McCarthy's 1964 Guide (p. 317), the sisters founded by Margaret Anna Cusack in 1884 were identified unqualifiedly as the "Sisters of St. Joseph of Newark" and were described as having been founded by "Bishop Bagshawe of Nottingham, England . . . in 1888." Then, we are told, Bishop Michael Wigger of Newark, New Jersey, "received the community into his dio-cese shortly after its establish-ment." The latter sentence, technically, is true, but the foundation was in 1884; by 1888 the controversial Cusack had left both Newark and the Catholic Church. The myth of Bagshawe's role, as well as the rather skewed chronology, evolved largely to bury the fact that this group's founder--a woman who did, I believe, have a charism and who had a very revolutionary vision for her community--was regarded at the time of her death as an "apostate." Dorothy Vidulich has provided a first-rate account of how Cusack's community rediscovered her in the aftermath of Vatican II, officially reclaiming her in 1970 as their founder and reclaiming, too, her original name for the congregation: the Sisters of St. Joseph of Peace. Since then, the group has devoted enormous effort to uncovering and taking ownership of her and their charism; nonetheless, the fact that her very connection with the institute was buried for eighty-five years (starting less than four years after it began) makes it difficult to discern the extent to which her charism ever played a meaningful role in its earlier historical expe-rience. Is the identity of this community primarily traceable to Cusack? Or, like an adopted child, must this group, like it or not, acknowledge that other "parents" may actually have been more significant in shaping their ongoing lived reality? 15 American Benedictines struggled both to respond to the ministerial and apostolic demands placed upon them and to remain as faithful as they could to their Benedictine heritage. May-June 1999 Thompson ¯ Charism or Deep Story? Which person or persons must be acknowledged as having contributed-- and how--to the congregation's actual history ? The founder of the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, of Monroe, Michigan, was never, stricdy speaking, denied; her central role in the congregation's founding was, how.ever, unde-niably minimized and obscured. Theresa Maxis Duchemin was the offspring of an unwed "woman of color." Both her "race" (her mother was an immigrant to the U.S. from what now is known as Haiti) and her "illegitimate" parentage were, of course, problem-atic. So was the fact that she obscured both of them when she came to Michigan in 1845 to found the congregation ("passing" as "white")--in doing so, she left the commu- 'nity she had belonged to since 1829, the Oblate Sisters of Providence. (This group was the first African American con-gregation in the history of Catholicism. Duchemin was one of its first ,four members, its only American-born founder, and was onetime superior gen-eral of it. In the 1830s her mother, too, joined the community.) What perhaps contributed most, however, towards her role in Monroe IHM history becoming "shadowy" were her ongoing con-flict with Edward Joos (an early spiritual father assigned to the congregation by the bishop), her decision to establish a foundation in Pennsylvania (which the bishop did not approve of, and which soon turned into two), her subsequent conflicts with the .authori-tarian bishop of Philadelphia who succeeded Duchemin's beloved John Neumann, and tier resultant eighteen years of exile in Canada, during which she was forbidden contact with any of the three IHM communities she had founded. Eventually Duchemin was allowed to return to the Philadelphia foundation; ironically, however, only the Scranton one has always acknowledged her role in its begin-nings, In Monroe, meanwhile, Mother Mary Joseph Walker, who succeeded Duchemin as superior in 1859, was becoming regarded as the group's "true foundress," while Joos, who served 'as its eccle-siastical superior from 1857 to 1901, was referred to as the "beloved father." 16 How is a grouplike this to return to the "charism of the founder"? Even in the 1990s the Monroe community is ambivalent Review for Religions as to how it should refer to Duchemin: was she their "founder," their "co-founder" (along with Louis Gillet, the Redemptorist who called her to Michigan in 1845 and departed' abruptly two years later), or simply one of the "first four"? What about the "found-ing" and "formative" roles of Walker and, especially, Joos? At the time of the latter's death, his loss was apparently considered so traumatic that the then general superior "had to assure the sisters that it was possible for the congregation to continue without him." True, Margaret Brennan IHM has documented the persistence of certain very specific elements of Duchemin's spiritual legacy, even through the decades when her contribution was denied, but impor-tant questions still remain.~7 As with the Sisters of St. Joseph of Peace, which person or persons must be acknowledged as having contributed--and how--to the congregation's actual history? "The Most Reverend Archbishop William Gross CSSR of Oregon City founded [the Sisters of St. Mary of Oregon] in Sublimity, Oregon, in 1886 . A vastly scattered flock, with . only a few religious to care for them, made Archbishop Gross determined to establish his own community of sisters."18 It seems a typical 19th-century story; unfortunately, it has almost no basis in reality. The real root of this community is a group of lay peo-ple who more than a decade earlier followed a schismatic priest of the Congregation of the Precious Blood, Charle~ Albrecht, out of Ohio into exile in Wisconsin and Minnesota (where Albrecht died) and then moved (with Albrecht's body) on to rural Oregon. There a young,girl in the group--who had been "bequeathed" to the cultish "trusteeship" of a trio of laymen ("devotees" of Albrecht, whose body during many months after his death,was kept in a cof-fin mounted above the dining table in the group's community room in Minnesota and then, quite ossified, was transported illegally to Oregon)--sought help from some Benedictine monks of Mount Angel Abbey, who put the future Mother Wilhelmina Bleily in touch with Gross, who eventually "regularized" the status of those who sought it and provided official recognition for the "sisters." Shortly thereafter he deposed Wilhelmina from the superiorship to which she had been duly elected, brought in a sister from Wisconsin to provide "formation" for the. community, and reshaped its identity completely. Although the original sisters had retained a strong devotion to the Precious Blood from their Ohio heritage, for instance, Gross refused to allow them to include this in the name of their congregation. By the 1960s, after decades of denial, May-June 1999 9A2 Thompson * Charism or Deep Story? Inappropriate reliance for spiritual grounding upon "a" founder and her or his significance can lead to a spirituality that is static or reactionary. Wilhelmina's contributions had been forgotten (and her diary, which recorded all that had happened, both before 1886 and after, lay gathering dust in the community's attic, not to be rediscov-ered until a new motherhouse was constructed in the 1970s), and the only things that remained from their roots were a red cord (on which they wore a crucifix around their necks) and a vague acknowledgment of a "devotion to the Precious Blood," one among many devotions that had been accepted without explanation for several generations29 More than either of the other two groups dis-cussed. here, the SSMO's decision to bury its past (not to mention Albrecht's body) certainly is understandable. It is also under-standable that, because of their "rescue" from the "trustees" by Gross, this really rather remark-able group has always prided itself on its loyalty to and reverence for the hierarchy. But how to imple-ment that loyalty whe, n the hier-archy charges one with "restoring the founder's charism"? In this case, what are they to do with Albrecht, with the trustees, with years of schismatic and extremely odd cultic spirituality, with the deposing of Wilhelmina, and with the clearly subordinate status that "in gratitude" the SSMOs were expected to tolerate in the Portland Archdiocese for most of the yea.rs of their existence? In this paper I have offered reasons why emphasis on the founder's charism--which has characterized so much of post- Vatican II religious renewal--deserves reexamination regarding its relevance and utility to the histories (and subsequent revitaliza-tions) of many religious congregations. Clearly, in many cases it is not something that can be easily identified, and, in some cases where it can be, that very recognition leads to problems of a dif-ferent sort. I could have discussed other issues as well: that certain congregations owe their origins to groups rather than to individ-uals, that emphasis on "formal" founders (founders who have offi-cial canonical recognition from the [male] prelates charged with 9rid "verifying" the "authenticity" of a congregation, and many of Review for Religiotts whom, for women's congregations, have erroneously been identi-fied as men) tends to obscure the cumulative and ongoing respon-sibilities that all community members have for their collective spirituality, and that inappropriate reliance for spiritual grounding upon "a" founder and her or his significance can lead to a spiritu-ality that is static or reactionary. All of these matters deserve explo-ration; unfortunately, constraints of space in the present circumstances prevent their serious consideration here. What I do offer for present consideration is an alternative approach to "charism" that may prove of value to communities that recognize some of their own histories in what I have been able to include in this essay. It is developed most fully, perhaps, in a 1989 article in Review for Religious by Bernard Lee SM.2° Lee begins with a clear assertion: The "recovery of charism" may be one of the most unsup-portable and unnecessary burdens a religious institution has ever been asked to bear, because it cannot be done. Charism is not a property. It is not a possession. It is not transfer-able, not transmittable, and not controllable. Charism is a deeply historicized social phenomenon. It cannot be dupli-cated in any other time or place. Charism has never been a movable feast. (p. 124) Instead, Lee suggests the notion of "deep story" as an alter-native to the emphasis on charism. He defines this as a category of interpretation that comes out of structuralism, which is a method for interpreting group identity. It pre-supposes that group identity is rooted in a narrative structure, that is, in recurring patterns of relationships and social activ-ities. The narrative structure of any complex and interesting group, however, is extremely elusive because it is instinctual and unconscious even more than it is deliberate and self-conscious . Deep stories are exhibited in rituals that cel-ebrate them (for example, rituals of profession), in special words and phrases that belong especially to them. Stephen Crites says that all of these things are elusive expressions of deep stories (he calls them sacred stories) "that cannot fully be told, because they live, so to speak, in the arms and legs and bellies of the celebrants. These stories lie too deep in the consciousness of a people to be directly told: they form con-sciousness rather than being among the objects of which it is directly aware." (p. 126)z' What Lee intends to suggest by all this, I think, is the con-tinuous and cumulative process of a community's identity forma- Thompson ¯ Charism or Deep Story? tion--its spiritual nature (my term), its history--which, of course, in sacred time and space, encompasses the present and future as much as the past. Thus, to turn to Lee once again, "the founder's or foundress's gift is not a community's charism. The real found-ing gift is a narrative structure that supported and reflected a charismatic event in the foundation's birth, and may do so again" (p. 129). But, as I understand this, it cannot remain static; instead, a "community of memory"--while "creatively rooted" in, or faith-ful to, its deep story--must always be on its way to the realization of a new charismatically gifted reality, one in which all members must participate and assume responsibility. I believe that the notion of deep story--as a paradigm--can help all of us cope with ongoing foundings and refoundings in religious life. Seen as participants in deep story, Wilhelmina Bleily, Charles Albrecht, and William Gross, Theresa Maxis Duchemin and Mary Joseph Walker and Edward Joos, Mary Felicia Jaskulski and Mary Boleslaus Rybicki, Margaret Anna Cusack, Theresia Bonzel, and Clara Pfaender, countless Benedictines, and tens of thousands of others, living and dead, can all find space and be "at home'--not comfortably, perhaps, or e~sily, but the Christian story, the deep story, is never easy or comfortable. It is, however, real, as real as the ongoing spiritual "gift" (dare I, after all this, say "charism"?) that has called so many over the centuries to fol-low the path of religious life. Notes ~ This essay was presented originally at the 1998 History of Women Religious Conference in Chicago. Though not every point is supported by refei'ences, this essay rests upon my decade-long research into the history of American women religious, including work in the archives of about seventy-five congregations and familiarity with virtually all the published materials on this subject, including historical and biographical works on over three hundred individual communities. On the subject of charism, I read all Vatican documents dealing with religious life, as well as approximately three dozen articles directly or indirectly on this sub-ject that have appeared in Review for Religious (U.S.A.) and Religious Life Review (Ireland). Many of the incidents and ideas recounted here are developed more fully in some of my previous publications; see, in par-ticular, "Discovering Foremothers: Sisters; Society, and the American Catholic Experience," U.S. Catholic Historian 5 (Summer/Autumn 1986): 273-290; "To Serve the People of God: Nineteenth-Century Sisters and the Creation of an American Catholic Religious Life," Cushwa Center Working Papers, Series 18, no. 2 (1986); "Women and American Review for Religious Catholicism, 1789-1989," in Perspectives on the Catholic Church in America, 1789-1989, ed. Virgina Geiger and Stephen Vicchio (Westminster, Maryland: Christian Classics, 1989), pp. 123-142; "Sisterhood and Power: Class, Culture, and Ethnicity in the American Convent," Colby Library Quarterly 25 (1989): 149-175; "Women, Feminism, and the New Religious History: Catholic Sisters as a Case Study," in Belief and Behavior: Essays in the New Religious History, ed. Philip VanderMeer and Robert Swierenga (New Brunswick, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, 1991), pp. 136-163;."Cultural Conundrum: Sisters, Ethnicity, and the Adaptation of American Catholicism," Mid-America 74 (1992): 205-230; "The Validation of Sisterhood: Canonical Status and Liberation in the History of American Nuns," in A Leaf of the Great Tree of God: Essays in Honor of Ritamary Bradley SFCC, ed. Margot H. King (Toronto: Peregrina Publishing Co., 1994), pp. 38-78; and "Concentric Circles of Sisterhood," in Building Sisterhood: A Feminist History of the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Syracuse: Syracuse University Press, 1997), pp. 1-21. For their insights into this subject, I offer my thanks to Ritamary Bradley SFCC, Thomas J. Costello, Barbara Garland SC, James Hennesey SJ, Mary Ann Hinsdale IHM, Elizabeth A. West ICM, and many of the participants in the Sister-L internet discussion group 2 In this, SCRIS reiterates a point made in a document it issued five years earlier, Mutuae relationes: "Bishops, in union with the Roman pon-tiff, receive from Christ the head the duty (see LG §21) of discerning gifts and competencies, of coordinating multiple energies, and of guid-ing the entire people in living in the world as a sign and instrument of salvation. They, therefore, are also entrusted with the duty of caring for religious chariSms" (§9); and "It is .the duty of bishops as authentic teach-ers and guides of perfection for all the members of the diocese (see CD §§12; 15; 35, 2; and LG §§25, 45) to be the guardians likewise of fidelity to the religious vocation in the spirit of each institute . Bishops, along with their clergy, should be. firm guardians of the specific character of each religious family both in the spiritual and in the apostolic field" (§28). These passages, as well as that from EssentialElements (§41), raise some serious questions about the autonomy and integrity of religious charisms, since the implication is that they cannot be presumed to exist "authentically" until those in (external) hierarchical authority say they exist. Certainly, this is a matter deserving of substantial Consideration; but, unfoi'tunately, that is outside the scope of this paper. 3 Wilfrid Harrington, "Charism," in A New Dictionary of Theology, ed. Joseph A. Komonchak et al. (Wilmington: Michael Glazier, 1987), p. 180; The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, ed. Richard E McBrien (HarperSanFrancisco, 1989), pp. 299-300. 4 These figures, as well as information included in Table 1, are derived from a detailed listing of all Catholic women's apostolic communities that I have located to date that existed in the United States between 1727 and 1917. Included in this list are com.munities which, for most or all of their existence, engaged in some form of active ministry. Thus, for May-June 1999 247 24S Thompson ¯ Charism or Deep Story? instance, contemplative Benedictines are omitted, as are purely contem-plative Visitation monasteries. In compiling these data, principal sources were: Elinor Tong Dehey, Religious Orders of Women in the United States, rev. ed. (Hammond, Indiana, 1930); Joan M. Lexau, Convent Life: Roman Catholic Religious Orders for Women in North America (New York, 1964), pp. 209-387 (Index of Orders); and Evangeline Thomas, Women Religious History Sources: A Guide to Repositories in the United States (New York, 1983), pp. 169-176 (Table of U.S. Founding Dates). Some information came from other sources, which are identified on the comprehensive list in my possession. s In that respect, they bear a similarity to the rest of the 149 U.S. con-gregations that have more individualized origins and have "founders" that they share, if at all, with only a handful of others. I shall return a bit later to the question of charism as it affects them. 6 All eight of the first indigenous communities of women studied by Barbara Misner in her landmark work, "Highly Respectable and Accomplished Ladies": Catholic Women Religious in America, 1790-18Y0 (New York: Garland, 1988), devoted most or all of their early ministerial energies to teaching. So did the vast majority of foundations initiated from abroad-- including the first in what is now the United States, the New Orleans Ursulines (founded in 1727). By 1884 the U.S. bishops, gathered at the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore and extremely concerned about "leak-age" from the faith, paid tribute to the success of these pioneers (and to their belief that the education of youth was the best way to keep people within the church) by their declaration that every parish in the country should establish at least one school within the next two years. That, in turn, increased the demand for religious teachers (the overwhelming majority of them women, and sisters), just as the "new immigration" (c. 1880-1917) from heavily Catholic eastern and southern Europe was get-ting underway. See also Gerald Shaughnessy, Has the Immigrant Kept the Faith? (New York: Macmillan, 1925); "The Pastoral Letter of 1884," in The National Pastorals of the American Hierarchy (1792-1919), ed. Peter Guilday (Washington, D.C.: National Catholic Welfare Council, 1923), pp. 280-282; Thompson, "Women and American Catholicism," p. 125. 7 This Guide (Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of America Press, 1964) appeared in six editions, the first in 1952 and the last in 1966. The 1964 edition was selected for use here because it appeared only one year before Perfectae caritatis called upon religious to renew themselves "in the spirit of their founders," thereby initiating the whole postconciliar emphasis on "charism." It should be noted that McCarthy acquired his information from the communities; therefore, these are the founding stories that the sisters themselves had identified and transmit-ted to him for inclusion. s I have written extensively elsewhere about the fact that many of these stories bear little or no resemblance to reality. That is, communi-ties which traditionally cited clerics as founders have, since Vatican II, in quite a number of cases, identified and reclaimed women as their prin- Review for Religious cipal initiators. Nevertheless, we cannot dismiss the significance of these founding stories (often recounted and thereby reinforced for several gen-erations) either. Whether or not men actually took the principal initia-tive in founding particular communities, it did affect the self-understandings of hundreds of sisters who were taught, and who believed, that the men had done so. 9 William Humphrey SJ, Elements of Religious Life, 2nd ed. (London: Thomas Baker, 1903), p. 164. 10 p. Lothar Hardick OFM, He Leads, I Follow: The Life of Mother Maria Theresia Bonzel, Foundress of the Sisters of St. Francis of Perpetual Adoration, trans. Sisters M. Honora Hau and M. Clarahilda Fischer (Colorado Springs, I971), pp. 23, 30-31, 185-186. Ironically, perhaps, Pfaender later separated and founded her own religious congregation, which also was Franciscan (known in the U.S. as the Wheaton [Illinois] Franciscans): M. Brunilde Probst, The Burning Seak Mother Mary Clara Pfaender, 1827- 1882 (Chicago: Franciscan Herald Press, 1960). n The founding of the community is recounted in great detail in Vol. 1 of Josephine Marie Peplinski SSJ-TOSF, A Fitting Response: The History of the Sisters of St. Joseph of the Third Order of St. Francis (South Bend, Indiana: priv. pub., 1982, 1992); material here is taken specifically from Vol. 2, pp. ix, 49-50, 239 (italics in the original). Jaskulski was superior general for 1902-1908, 1918-1928, 1940-1942 (when she died); Rybicki was superior general for 1908-1918. Both were perpetually in leader-ship, either as head of the congregation or on its council, from its foun-dation until their deaths (Ryb!cki died in 1926); their lives, spiritualities, and contrasting administrations are described meticulously in chapters 1, 4, and 5 of Vol. 2. I also have written about the SSJ-TOSF story; see esp. "Sisterhood and Power" and "Cultural Conundrum" (see note 1). 12Judith Sutera OSB, True Daughters: Monastic Identity and American Benedictine Women's History (Atchison: priv. pub., 1987); M. Incarnata Girgen, Behind the Beginnings (St. Joseph, Minnesota: priv. pub., 1981); Ephrem Hollermann, The Reshaping of a Tradition: American Benedictine Women, 1852-1881 (Vv'inona: St. Mary's Press, 1994). ~3 Sutera, True Daughters, esp. chaps. 4-5 and pp. 38, 42, 53-56. 14 McCarthy, 1964 Guide, pp. 195-197. ,s Dorothy A. Vidulich, Peace Pays a Price: A Study of Margaret Anna Cusack, the Nun ofKenmare, 2nd ed. (Washington, D.C., priv. pub., 1990; orig. 1975); see also Irene Ffrench Edgar, Margaret Anna Cusack (Dublin: Women's Press, 1979); Margaret Anna Cusack, The Nun of Kenmare: An Autobiography (Boston: Houghton, Mifflin, 1891). 16 The Monroe IHM story is told in fascinating detail throughout Building Sisterhood (see note 1, above); see, in particular, Marita-Constance Supan IHM, "Dangerous Memory: Mother M. Theresa Maxis Duchemin and the Michigan Congregation of the Sisters, IHM," pp. 31-67; Suzanne Fleming IHM, "She Who Remained: Mother Mary Joseph Walker and the 'Refounding' of the IHM Congregation," pp. 69-92; and Thompson, May-Jutte 1999 Thompson ¯ Cbarinn or Deep Story? "Concentric Circles," esp. pp. 5-8, and "Part l:The Context," pp. 25-28. L7 Fleming, "She Who Remained," p. 91; Margaret Brennan IHM, "'No Two Exactly Alike': IHM Spirituality," in Building Sisterhood, pp. 95-109; see also Rosalita Kelly IHM, No Greater Service: The History of the Congregation of the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Monroe: priv. pub., 1948), esp. p. 132. L8 McCarthy, 1964 Guide, p. 325. ~9 The SSMO story is told with honesty in Wilfred P. Schoenberg SJ, These Valiant Women: History of the Sisters of St. Mary of Oregon, 1886- 1986 (Portland: priv. pub., 1986)~ I also have read Wilhelmina's diary in the SSMO archives, Beaverton, Oregon. Three of the original members of the Ohio group left it during the days in Wisconsin and became found-ing members in 1869 (one of them first superior when the group was of officially established) of the Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity in Manitowoc; see M, Teresita Kit~:ell OSF, Refining His Silver: Pioneer Days of the Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity, Manitowoc, Wisconsin, 1866- 1911 (Manitowoc: priv. pub., 1979). This, among other things, serves to document the length of time that the: schismatic "cult" was in existence before the SSMO's "founding" in 1886. 20 Bernard Lee SM, "A Socio-Historical Theology of Charism," Review for Religious 48, no. 1 (1989): 124-135; see also Doris Gottemoeller RSM, "Befriending the Wind," Review for Religious 53, no. 6 (1994): esp. p. 811. n See also Stephen Crites, "The Narrative Quality of Experience," Journal of the American Academy of Religion 39 (1971). Open Wounds Be bold, twin brother. Probe the wounds doubt demands to see. The gash is but entrance to his heart. Pry it wide to penetrate the core. Review for Religious Demand and desire, too, are twins that seek to let his hallowed, hollow hands transform old hurts to quiet awe. , ~Eugene Cartier ELIZABETH McDONOUGH The Need for Self-Criticism: Affirmative Comments I n the United States the precipitous decline in numbers of postolic women religious since Vatican Council II will surely have far-reaching consequences for all segments of the church as the third millennium begins. Church-related educational and healthcare institutions will probably continue to be transferred to nonecclesial and sometimes for-profit auspices, and many Catholics may grow up unaware that apostolic congregations of women reli-gious exist as ways of life that could have appealed to them. ~ Recently, in commenting on the years of renewal in religious life since Vatican II, Sister Doris Gottemoeller RSM noted that "for the most part we have not identified and reflected on the learnings" from this experience and that "critical reflection on our present reality" has been lacking.1 She is currently president of the Sisters of Mercy of the Americas, is a recent past president of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR), was a participant in the 1994 Synod on Consecrated Life, and is one of the original members of the Catholic Common Ground Initiative. Her comments may represent a pivotal change in perspective by someone in an influential leadership position. And, since critical self-appraisal has been neither prevalent nor popular among American women religious since Vatican II, her comments may also represent a significant change at this time. Elizabeth McDonough OP has written the Canonical Counsel column in this journal since our issue of July-August 1990 and has contributed several other articles as well. Her address is P.O. Box 29260; Washington, D.C. 20017. ,~'h~y-~une 1999 McDonougb * The Need for Self-Criticism Though voices of criticism have consistently been raised about the postconciliar renewal efforts of religious life--by members of the hierarchy, by diocesan and religious clergy, by lay people, and by sisters themselves--critical reflection from without or from within has frequently been openly excluded Or quietly ignored in many, and perhaps most, women's apostolic communities. Over the years, members of women's religious communities have, in both speech and writing, lodged various objections to the general direction the path of postconciliar change was taking, a path that people now see as leading to pos-sible demise. The objections made over the years concerned, among other matters, the tendency towards having women religious governed by groups or by intermediate administrative personnel rather than by specific individuals elected to particular offices; the steady move-ment towards (so-called) total-participation chapters, which fre-quently exclude actual participation for many sisters; the general abandonment of easily recognizable identity symbols, along with the failure to maintain various community practices that many found meaningful; the increased use of open placement regarding sisters' employment, with the concomitant results of expanded apostolic diversity, an inability of congregations to make or meet institutional commitments, and the lessening of opportunities for community living. But in many women's congregations such objec-tions have not been well received by leadership or by segments of the membership. Moreover, although explicit internal objections regarding prevalent renewal patterns seem to have diminished over the years and to be somewhat rare now, it seems that members who still wish to embrace a renewed but traditional form of religious life (and who may be in their sixties, seventies, or even eighties) now channel their efforts elsewhere because of their experience of func-tional or systematic exclusion from effecting changes in internal governance. Many now direct their energies to living the remain-ing years of their vowed life by witnessing simply to the values they have consistently embraced but felt circumstantially unable to practice during much of the course of renewal. That is, they now consciously seek opportunities to live in common, to share com-munity prayer, and to minister in an apostolate traditionally related to their charism. Meanwhile, younger members--that is, mem-bers mostly under fifty--have initiated regular intra- and inter- Review for Religious congregational gatherings and networking in search of mutual sup-port and deeper religious meaning. Regarding various community renewal policies and proce-dures, then, numbers of community members have voiced explicit criticism--and by their practice have made some implicit criticism unmistakably clear too. Beyond this criticism arising from within apostolic communities of women religious, critical assessments have come also from people outside these communities. These assess-ments have been met with a similar pattern of rejection. Comments that even border on being critical have been categorically discountenanced as arising variously from arrogant, intemperate, shallow, uninformed, traditionalist, or ignorant sources. Criticism from the hierarchy and diocesan clergy seems often to have been excluded because they are regarded as hopelessly embedded in patriarchy. Criticism from religious priests seems to have been judged unacceptable because they are con-sidered to be unduly influenced by their experience of clerical advantage. And criticism from lay people seems to have been readily rejected because many of them are viewed as harboring unrealistic expectations of a lifestyle in which they do not share. Indeed, a pattern of negative reaction to critical assessmentsof what has happened since Vatican II is evident in responses to a recent article concerning possible causes for the current dearth of religious vocations in some communi-ties) It often appears that only certain internal, ostensibly self-perpetuating authorities or select special-interest groups are judged as adequately expressing the renewa! process among women reli-gious. Any suggestion from any source that any viable religious life in the future might diverge from the direction envisioned by the prevailing progressive model seems to be all too readily con-sidered as patently reactionary, as categorically negative, as arro-gantly uninformed, as judgmentally ignoring women's unique lived Any suggestion from any source that any viable religious life in the future might diverge from the direction envisioned by the prevailing progressive model seems to be all too readily considered as patently reactionary. ;'~,lay-JuJle 1999 254 McDonough ¯ The Need for Self-Criticism experience, as unfairly critical, or as an emotionally immature attachment to a former way of life) Furthermore, as postconciliar renewal has continued, it is not only critical observations that have been shunned .by women reli-gious in this country. Significant research data and pointed rec-ommendations from comprehensi'be sociological studies have also been embraced only selectively and implemented only sporadi-cally. Results from the ongoing, multifaceted, and controversial "Sisters' Survey"--as formulated and conducted under the direc-tion of sociologist Marie Augusta Neal SNDdeN--were systemat-ically distributed to participating congregations, published in several books~ and regularly reported at national meetings of major superiors from 1967 through the late 1980s. In stark contrast, amazingly little attention has been given to the more recent findings of psychologists David Nygren CM and Miriam Ukeritis CgJ. These researchers surprised participants at a 1992 Chicago workshop when, in presenting data from their study on the Future of Religious Orders in the United States (abbreviated as FORUS), they announced that many religious communities in this country had only a "ten-year window" in which to alter the present course of decline if they wished to perdure many years into the third millennium. The conferences of major superiors (CMSM and LCWR) were directly involved in the planning and execution of the FORUS study, which rendered some startling results about reli-gious in the United States. Included in these discoveries were. a lack of role clarity among religious (especially in apostolic groups of women), a high degree of cultural assimilation by religious, a general ministerial invisibility of religious, a relative dearth of effec-tive leadership in most religious communities, an apparently less-ened inclination to sacrifice among religious, and a widespread loss of institutional commitments by religious congregations.4 More than half a decade has passed since Nygren and Ukeritis projected that there was only a "ten-year window" of opportunity for the viability of religious institutes in America. During this time the FORUS findings seem to have gone largely unheeded or to have been relegated to convenient oblivion. Could it be that this study was greeted with a less than enthusiastic response precisely because its findings were unpopular among the group being assessed? For, indeed, the FORUS results did not shower unbounded accolades on the postconciliar transformation of reli-gious life in America; did not unquestioningly advocate contin- Review for Religious ued pursuit of the progressive model of renewal, and did not offer unrestrained optimism for the future prospects of religious insti-tutes. Or could it be that the FORUS findings, perceived as being all too accurate, were simply too painful to accept and conse-quently were met with at least unconscious denial at individual and collective levels in most congregations, particularly those of women religious? Over the years, religious in several areas of expertise have also sounded calls for critical reassessment of current practices in light of the manifest patterns of continuing decline in religious institutes. These calls, too, seem largely unheeded. The historical and sociological analyses of Raymond Fitz SM and Lawrence Cada SM, which appeared in the mid 1970s, got little attention after several months of popular discussion. Their work said quite clearly that probably only a small fraction of the then extant communi-ties would successfully negotiate post- Vatican renewal efforts,s Might the brief notice that Fitz and Cada's anal-yses received.be due, at least in part, to their intimation that religious con-gregations over the centuries have had identifiable lifespans, that many con-gregations did not last long after a per-vasive experience of absolute doubt regarding purpose, and that this seemed to be precisely the situa-tion at that time for thousands of religious in America? In 1983 CARA (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate) in Washington, D.C., published a translation of the 1972 land-mark monograph of Raymond Hostie SJ, Vie et mort des ordres religieux, on which the Fitz and Cada material was directly based.6 The introduction to this booklet, by historian Dolores Liptak RSM, explains its significance, its application to ~enewal among American religious and specifically women religious. But this, too, appears to have received only scant attention within women's communities in the United States. All through the early 1990s, Eleace King IHM, of CAR& pub-lished data about--and reasons for--the steady decline in voca- Religious in several areas of expertise have also sounded calls for critical reassessment of current practices in light of the manifest patterns of continuing decline in religious institutes. 255 May-,]une 1999 McDonougb * The Need for Self-Criticism tions to progressively oriented communities along with parallel data about the constant flow of vocations to traditional groups.7 Little note, however, has been taken of these results. At the beginning of this decade, David O'Connor ST offered a balanced and readable summary of the various cultura!, eccle-sial, theological, and ideological shifts that may be contributing to the (possible) disappearance of many religious institutes in this country; but his work is rarely cited or even referenced in reli-gious- life circles.8 In 1991 I myself published what the editor of America magazine referred to as a "trenchant critique" of the then prevailing trends in religious life, while the editor of First Things described it as "a first-rate analysis of what has gone awry in the many worlds of American religion."9 This analysis and critique received an overwhelming positive response from members of reli-gious communities around the world, but it was simultaneously greeted with resounding silence from those in leadership. Albert DiIanni SM has offered thoughtful considerations based on his experience of the renewal of religious life as it currently relates to religion, to modernity, to modern psychology, to com-munity, to decreasing vocations, and to certain laicizing trends in the post-Vatican II era; but his observations have been met with either studied unconcern or strident rejectionJ° And little heed has been paid to the recent, assessment of sociologist Patricia Wittberg SC that the future of most religious communities is severely limited--if not rather bleak---precisely because a coinci-dence of internal and external factors has resulted in a collapse of their ideological framework and a lessening or elimination of their functional supports.~ Regarding postconciliar religiousqife trans-formation, are only laudatory comments able to be perceived as having any meaning and value for communities of women reli-gious in America today? In many of these communities, a pattern of dismissing with studied disdain or even open derision any factual data that leads to disconcerting conclusions about their lives has been ill too evi-dent in the response to Ann Carey's recent book, a book (widely conceded to be well documented) that details decisions and actions taken in the decades since Vatican II within the conference of major superiors for women's institutes.~2 Note, hbwever, that Lora Ann Quifionez CDP and Mary Daniel Turner SNDdeN published a book earlier in the decade that traced precisely the same era of transi-tion and detailed most of the same topics, but from a different Review for Religious perspective and with less specific documentation.13 In contrast to Carey's work, the Quifionez-Turner book was well received and has been highly touted as an accurate portrait of renewal. Yet both books present renewal as deliberately intended and carefully planned. Both books address the influence of cultural context, the impa6t of the Sisters' Survey, the effect of feminist initiatives, the disruption from internal conference conflicts, the consequences of hierarchic confrontations, and other such topics in reference to postconciliar religious life. Both books name those who were instrumental in the renewal process at national and local levels in this country. And the authors of both books offer assessments of what has actually occurred. Could the disparity in recep-tion of these two works be due at least in part to the fact that the Quifionez- Turner book evaluates these happen-ings positively while the Carey book views the results as more than slightly wide of the mark envisioned by Perfectae caritatis? To be sure, journalist Carey is a laywoman who judged the evidence she amassed as anything but complimen-tary to the renewal process and those who directed it, and she called for critical reassessment of renewal results. On the other hand, Quifionez and Turner are women religious--both former executive secretaries of LCWR and both instrumental in effecting the postconciliar transformation--who judged the results thus far as entirely positive and urged further development along the same course of renewal. It is a truism of historical scholarship that those attempting an analysis of a set of events need a realistic broad familiarity with the historical context. But does this explain why the perspective on religious-life renewal presented by those who guided it should so readily be judged more accurate or more objective or more accept-able than the perspective of someone who has carefully pored over official documentation and verifiable data and has her own lived familiarity with post-Vatican II renewal? Could it be that negative assessments of religious-life renewal from whatever source are Could it be that negative assessments of religious-life renewal from whatever source are simply unacceptable to women religiousm for whatever reason ? 257 May-June 1999 McDonougb ¯ The Need for Self-Criticism t_g_ 1 simply unacceptable to women religious--for whatever reason? For an explanation of the present situation of decline and demise, are many women religious simply incapable of looking further than a speculatively fascinating and vaguely consoling convergence of sociological circumstances that impact religious life fr0m outside? Is none of the decline and demise of the past thirty-three years attributable to decisions made and actions taken within religious communities? Have dispersed ministries and secular attire (with lapel pins) and apartment living had absolutely no detrimental effect, whether expected or not? Are women religious able to look at none of the above? And, if so, why? Though the suggestion made ten years ago by sociologist Wittberg that the behavioral patterns among congregations of women religious might "actually be dysfunctional for organiza-tional survival" appears to have been effectively ignored, it may well identify a pertinent reality that needs to be at least acknowl-edged- if not directly addressed--by religious congregations of women today.14 And perhaps women religious would also do well to attend to the warning, offered in 1988 by psychologist Donna Markham OP, that the positive perception they had of themselves did not match the perception of others--something that did not bode well for vocations.~s Indeed, with rare exception, vocations have declined steadily throughout the decade since Markham's observation, and in most communities of apostolic women reli-gious the median age has gradually increased. " True enough, religious life is not merely a functional institu-tion, and it certainly ought not to be reduced to a numbers game. But is it unrealistic to suggest that a minimal number of members is needed for a community to perdure, to serve effectively, and to hand on a religious tradition? And, when women religious look over their shoulder for younger women walking in their footsteps and see no one there, is it really unfair to surmise that what they have been fashioning since Vatican II may not be a viable form of future religious life after all? Or, again, when congregations begin realistically to project that by the year 2010 fewer than ten percent of their members will be under sixty-five years of age, is it unduly critical to suggest that someone somewhere somehow may have made some decision(s) in the three-plus decades of post-Vatican II renewal that ought seriously to be reassessed and perhaps even altered? I think not. Review for Religious Indeed, on the part of women religious in America (and per-haps elsewhere in the world, too), some possibly difficult but gen-uinely constructive self-criticism and some corrective change of course in various aspects of postconciliar renewal ought to be hon-esdy welcomed.'6 And both may be long overdue, because the real-ity at issue has import far beyond the ever-dwindling numbers of ever-aging apostolic women religious themselves. Notes 1 Doris Gottemoeller, "Religious Life: Where Does It Fit in Today's Church?" in Review for Religious 57, no. 3 (March-April 1998): 146- 160. 2 Albert Dilanni, "A View of Religious Vocations," America 178, no. 6 (28 February 1998): 8-12. 3 See various responses to the Dilanni article (note 2 above) among letters to the editor in the March and early April issues of 1998. 4 David J. Nygren and Miriam D. Ukeritis, "The Religious Life Futures Project: Executive Summary," Review for Religious 52, no. 1 (January-February 1993): 6-55; also. Origins 22, no. 15 (24 September 1992): 257-272. s Lawrence Cada and Raymond Fitz, "The Recovery of Religious Life," Review for Religious 34, no. 5 (September-October 1975): 690-718. 6 Raymond Hostie, /,qe et mort des ordres religieux (Paris: Descl~e, 1972), translated for a limited English edition as The Life and Death of Religious Orders (Washington, D.C.: CAP, A, 1983). 7 See the CARA Formation Directory for Men and Women Religious (Washington, D.C.: CARA) as edited by Eleace King IHM for the years 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1994-1995. s David O'Connor, Witness and Service (New York: Paulist Press, 1990), pp. 145-162. 9 See, respectively, Elizabeth McDonough, "Beyond the Liberal Model: Quo Vadis?" Review for Religious 50, no. 3 (March-April 1991): 178-188; editorial in America for 13 July 1991; and "The Public Square," First Things, no. 17 (November 1991). ,0 Albert DiIanni, Religious Life as Adventure (New York: Alba House, 1994). " Patricia Wittberg, The Rise and Fall of Catholic Religious Orders (New York: SUNY Press, 1994). ,2 Ann Carey, Sisters in Crisis (Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor, 1997). ,3 Lora Ann Quifionez and Mary Daniel Turner, The Transformation of American Catholic Sisters (Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1992). ,4 Patricia Wittberg, "Outward Orientation in Declining 259 May-June 1999 McDonough ¯ The Need for Self-Criticism Organizations: Reflections on LCWR Documents," in Claiming Our Truth, ed. Nadine Foley (Washington, D.C.: LCWR, 1988), pp, 91-105. 15 Donna Markham, "The Decline of Vocations in the United States: Reflections from a Psychological Perspective," New Catholic World 231, no. 1381 (January-February 1988): 13-17. 16 See, for example, the recent comments of Doris Gottemoeller, "Religious Life in Crisis," Origins 28, no. 36 (25 February 1999): 634- 638. The Treasure Long ago a rainbow arc'd my storm-tossed sky, and the pot of gold I found then is still bottomless. Since that serendipitous moment, faith has claimed its reality. I see with clarity--over the clouds, beyond the rains--that joy and pain alike qualify to mine the treasure, provide the coin to buy the Kingdom, here on the green earth for a time, and there in the meadows of Eternity. Anna Marie Mack SSJ Review for Religious LARRY N. LORENZONI The Annuario Pontificio The Vatican's "Pontifical Yearbook" and a Recent Editorial Decision Fourteen years ago the Religious Life Review, edited in Dublin by Father Austin Flannery OP, published an arti-cle with the catchy title "The Single Sex Church of the Annuario Pontificio." Its opening paragraphs noted the almost total absence of women's names in the church's official directory. The same article was later reprinted in Sisters Today with a milder title: "The Annuario Pontificio and Women in the Church." The Annuario Pontificio is the 4.25"-by-6.5" 2500- page yearbook of the Roman Catholic Church. Bound in red cloth with a golden papal coat of arms on the cover, it contains annually updated information about the College of Cardinals, all archbishops and bishops (with basic facts about their respective dioceses), all prelates and abbots, the secretariat of state, the Roman tribunals, congregations, councils, and commissions, the Vatican Library, the church's worldwide diplomatic representa-tives (nuncios and pronuncios), all the ambassadors accredited to the Holy See, the administration of Vatican City, all officially approved religious orders of men and Larry N. Lorenzoni SDB, a Salesian priest, served in the late 1980s as director of the documentation, information, and press office of Caritas Internationalis in Rome. Currently director of development for his province, he may be addressed at Salesians of St. John Bosco; 1100 Franklin Street; San Francisco, California 94109. 1999 261 A former noteworthy feature of the Annuario was the almost total absence of females in its pages. 262 Lorenzoni ¯ Tlse Annuario Pontifido of women, academies, atheneums, pontifical universities (six: Gregoriana, Lateranense, Urbaniana, San Tommaso d'Aquino [Angelicum], Salesiana, and the new Santa Croce), a number of seminaries and colleges, and various other institutes and cultural organizations. The Annuario closes with a hundred pages of historical notes and six hundred pages of alphabetical lists: names of all the dio-ceses, prelatures~ and titular dioceses (in their Latin adjectival form, Latin noun form, and modern Roman-alphabet form) and the names and page references of some 25,000 persons. It is a fascinat-ing book. Of the 151 living cardinals listed in the 1997 Annuario (to cite a rather significant fact one can easily cull from its pages), 4 were created by Pope John xxIII, 31 by Paul vI, and 116 by Pope John Paul II. A former noteworthy feature of the Annuario--it used to distinguish it from virtually eve .ry other directory in the world--was the almost total absence of females in its pages. The alpha-betical list at the end of the directory was conse-quently 99.99 percent male. Historical, doctrinal, and traditional considerations are essential for a proper understanding of this situation. One page from the 1985 article (in RLR) found its way to the Vatican underground and quickly became the subject of some interesting conversa-tions during my four years (1986-1990) at Caritas Internationalis, the church's worldwide charity wing. In the penthouses of Palazzo San Callisto, where the Caritas offices are located (near Santa Maria in Trastevere), lived a number of active and retired cardinals (Roger Etchegaray, Bernardin Gantin, Paul Poupard, Ferdinando Antonelli, Francesco Carpino, and Francis Arinze). I came to know best Cardinal Francis Arinze, from Nigeria, the genial president of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Occasionally I see him mentioned among the papabili and featured as a speaker on Mother Angelica's EWTN television programs. He is keenly intelligent and friendly, a good listener, articulate and ever an opti-mist. Open to new ideas, he weighs carefully all arguments against the truths of the faith and then follows them courageously t6 their logical conclusions. I remember in particular one conversation I had with him at Review for Religious Palazzo San Callisto, a conversation occasioned by some para-graphs from that December 1985 article (of mine) in RLR, which some friend had shared with him. The paragraphs are these: One glaring lacuna [in the Annuario Pontificio] is hard to understand, and even harder to accept, because of the anger it is likely to provoke today when everyone is being increas-ingly sensitized against all kinds of discrimination. I am refer-ring to the omission of the names of the superiors general of women religious where the individual congregations are listed with the address of the generalate and current information as to the number of foundations and of professed members. .This anomaly came to my attention when I needed to check the spelling of the name of the new mother general of our Salesian sisters. I had just looked up the name of the superior general of the Fathers of Mercy (whose ad I had seen in The Wanderer), so I turned instinctively to the Annuario for the answer to my question. It was not as sim-ple as I thought. For every male congregation, the name of the superior general is invariably given (and, in 99 percent of the cases, also that of the procurator general). One learns, for instance, that the Very Rev. John O'Brien is the superior general of the Fathers of Mercy (an order founded in 1808), even though the order has only seven members worldwide. Fifty-four religious orders of men have less than I00 pro-fessed members, seven have 25 or fewer, but in each case the name of the general is prominently displayed. I was chagrined to discover that in the case of the orders and congregations of women one looks in vain in the Annuario for the names of the mothers general. Some 120 of those congregations have a membership of over 1000 sis-ters. In vain did I look for the name of the superior general of the Salesian sisters, even though the Daughters of Mary Help of Christians, as they are officially known, have a worldwide membership of nearly 18,000. They are the sec-ond largest congregation of women in the church, after the 34,000 Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul. Such a discriminatory omission tends to reinforce all the worst stereotypes one hears about the institutional church and its treatment of women, since it conveys a number of admittedly unintentional but nonetheless inescapable mes-sages: (1) Women are of little consequence in the church. (2) The father superior of ten men is more important than the mother superior of I0,000 women. (3) Names of females, no matter how important, need not be listed in the Annuario because the church does not discuss matters of consequence with them anyway. (4)Male religious superiors are routinely consulted, and hence it is necessary to have their names listed May-June 199.9 Lorenzoni ¯ The AnnuarioPontificio in the Annuario, but listing the flames of the superiors gen-eral of women does not serve any useful purpose since very rarely does one need to know who they are and even less deal or correspond with them. (5) Sisters are supposed to accept obediently and without too many questions whatever Holy Mother Church says. Unfortunately, in the thinking of many, Holy Mother Church is often equated with male power structure. No dissenting voice was heard from those who had joined our conversation. Both retired Cardinal Francesco Carpino (a man of rare nobility, who died 5 October 1993) and Cardinal Francis Arinze agreed that the Annuario should at long last join the mod-ern age and list the names of women religious superiors alongside those of their male counterparts. But Rome moves slowly. The 16 December 1994 issue of Commonweal carried this item under its Et Cetera rubric: Speaking in support of requests by women's religious orders for an end to discrimination by the church against women, Archbishop Maurice Couture of Quebec pointed to the 1993 Vatican Yearbook (Annuario Pontificio); it lists the names of the superiors general of all institutes of men, but none of the names of the superiors general of women (Origins, November 3). Good for the archbishop, but he's ten years late. Writing in Religious Life Review for November-December 1985, our correspondent Larry Lorenzoni SDB [Correspondence, November 18] recalled turning to the Annuario to find the name of the superior general of the Fathers of Mercy, an order founded in 1808 which has seven members worldwide. The name was there: the Very Rev. John O'Brien. He also looked for the name of the superior general of the Salesian sisters, the second largest congregation of women in the church: nearly 18,000 members. No name. Some of the mes-sages conveyed (Father Lorenzoni, a kind man, says they are "admittedly unintentional but nonetheless inescapable"): "Women are of little consequence in the church; the father superior of ten men is more important than the mother supe-rior of 10,000 women; there's no point in publishing the names of women superiors because who needs to know them." I have before me the 1997 edition of the Annuario Pontificio. I see with some personal satisfaction that each religious congrega-tion of women now routinely carries, as an additional entry, the name of the mother general. The change can safely be labeled "routine" since it started with the Annuario's 1996 edition. Review for Religious No doubt, some gentle nudging by a few highly placed mem-bers of the College of Cardinals, as well as by bishops convinced that the previous practice was clearly discriminatory, helped level the field. Word eventually reached the offices of the Vatican sec-retariat of state, on which the Annuario Pontificio depends, and suitable action followed with the publication of the 1996 edition. A recent phone call to the secretariat of state enabled me to reach Angela Zanetti, a most personable and knowlegeable lady who was for twenty-six years connected with the production of the Annuario. Her new supervisor, Monsignore Fermenti, intro-duced her to me as a "walking encyclopedia on the history of the Annuario Pontificio." Here are some interesting facts from our con-versation: ¯ The first list of male religious orders (Istituti Mascbili) appeared in the 1838 edition of the Annuario. ¯ The first list of female religious orders (Istituti Femminih) appeared 98 years later, in the 1940 edition, without the name of the mother general. ¯ The two lists continued to be published (Ordini Mascbili first, Ordini Femminili second) in the years following, each order of men shouting prominently the name of the general, each order of women lacking that particular information. * At last, in the 1996 edition, for the very first time, the information concerning each religious order of women included also the name of the mother general, as had previously been done for even the smallest reli-gious orders of men. I am reminded of what Pat Paulsen, the late tongue-in-cheek presidential candidatei once said with his usual aplomb: "No one should be denied equal rights because of the shape of their skin." Subs'criptions to Review for Religious can flow b~ ordered,or renewedoby FAX; and paid forby Ma~terCard ~o'r Visd. FA~ the order form inside the back cover, or cALL our o~c~ ~wi~ "th your credit card number: IF~: 31z~-977~7362 0, ~'HONE: 314-977-7363 1999 JOAN A. RANGE Women and Canon Law Cbanon law, as a support for the life of the community of elievers, that is, the church, has a history almost as old as the community itself. Over the centuries, its formulation has not been the work of women, a fact that is readily understandable. Women did not have the status nor society the liberality for that kind of contribution. Women were, however, a vital part of the church and society: in the church as members of the various ordines that supported the living community and in society as wives and mothers2 History witnesses to this fact and those roles. Women's lives, moreover, were guided by the protection, pre-scriptions, and sanctiohs of the church's law. In church courts of the ¯ Middle Ages, women were parties to suits brought against alleged violations and also were sued for alleged violations of others' rights. The activity of women in the world of canon law is well attested to in the church's history.2 But as members who formulated the law or who addressed the church's courts (defending others or doing advocate work for oth-ers) or judged cases (even as collegiate judges), all this women never did until this century. In this century women have performed all these functions in their own right as members of the church and as canon lawyers. The future is clear for their continued func-tioning to be even more vigorous. This rather astonishing fact needs consideration. Given the absence of women in all these roles before this century, how did this change come about? Joan A. Range ASC is associate professor in the Department of Theological Studies at Saint Loui~ University. Her address is Humanities Bui_lding; 3800 Lindell Boulevard; St. Louis, Missouri 63108. Review for Relig4ous Women's Status in Canon Law ~ Before this century, as a rule women's status was that of persons limited before the law. Mostly, women were considered--as were minors and the mentally incompetent--unable in their own person and name to bring a case before the court. This reflected Roman law, from which much of canon law is derived. When, however, asso-ciations of women became moral persons with rights and duties in the law, they were able to bring cases to court, as history shows. Besides bringing cases to the church's tribunals when their rights were being infringed or violated, women were also sued by others if the petitioner felt that his own rights were being infringed or violated by women. This was often a matter of property rights. As time progressed it might also be a matter of marriage rights as well, especially when it concerned the legitimacy of children and their right to inherit. Other than these cases, however, women's presence in~ the laws themselves usually had to do with their status within the church and society, that is, as daughters, wives, moth-ers, widows, nuns, or women of ill repute. Beginning early in the church's history, the protection of wid-ows and orphans was a great concern since these groups were socially the most vulnerable. As time passed and Roman law found its way into the church's mentality, other laws concerning women were developed to protect the virgin from marriage if she resisted, from abduction and rape, and later as a member of a community of consecrated women) Most of the legislation had to do with the women as wives and mothers, however, and especially with their ability to bear children. Laws agains.t adultery, contraception, and abortion were the most prominent since they infringed upon the husband's potency, paternity, or virility.4 Apart from these matters, women as individual persons were not dealt with in the church's laws. The 1917 Code did not always treat women equally with men, as studies testify.5 The 1983 Code, in contrast, states that the "there exists among all the Christian faithful a true equality with regard to dignity and the activity whereby all cooperate in the building up of the Body of Christ in accord with each one's own condition and function.''6 The excep-tion to this is when the nature of the case clearly indicates other-wise, such as the laws having to do with ordination.7 Women began to engage themselves in the activities of the Canon Law Society of America (CLSA) since about the middle of this century. It is that story upon which we now focus. May-June 1999 ,267 Range * Women and Canon Law Women and the Canon Law Society of America The pivotal event for the growth in female membership in the CLSA was the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965).8 Before that event there were clear hints that the status of women in the world and in the church needed to be addressed.9 The council documents, too, indicated those concerns,l° In the United States, women's professional involvement in canon law began in the mid 1960s. Clara Marie Henning, the first woman to become a member of CLSA, applied for membership in 1968. She was then a student in the School of Canon Law at the Catholic University of America, from which she later received the licentiate in canon law (JCL). Other women were members of the CLSA, but their reason for membership was their position as supe-riors of religious orders, not their status as canon lawyers. Even before Vatican II, beginning with Pope Pius XrlI, efforts had been made by the church to bring about a simplification and an updating within the various orders and congregations of women religious worldwide.~ This was a remote cause for interest in canonical matters and membership in the CLSA. After the documents of the council and the implementation decrees of Pope Paul vI had been issued, there was a need and desire to learn about canon law and its usefulness in the efforts of religious congregations toward adaptation and renewal. These efforts had a significant effect on the work during the 1970s toward formulating the new and revised Code. Initially, then, the impetus for women to become members of the CLSA was that congregations of women religious might derive more benefit from canon law. Another reason for women to begin studying canon law and to become members of the CLSA was an academic one. As Catholic universities opened graduate programs in theology for lay people, some women students became interested in pursuing degrees in canon law. This interest included both the relation of canon law to theology and the historical development of canon law. The membership records of the CLSA are limited in a number of ways. For many year~ the records were the responsibility of the coordinator and were not kept in a permanent office. It was only in 1980 that a full-time director and staff began to have an office (with a permanent place for records)at the Catholic University of America. The records up to 1979 were given to the Cushwa Center for .the Study of American Catholicism and are available there as archival records. The membership records are incom- Review for Religious plete, however, because they were not systematically kept, a not uncommon omission when an organization's importance is not understood in its early days22 Nevertheless, the records show a remarkable growth in female membership after the mid 1960s. In 1968 there were hardly five women members. In 1971 the first woman was elected to national office in the CLSA.13 This event witnessed to a movement within the society to include women as active members. In 1976 there were 38 women members; by 1984 there were 139. The 1990 directory lists almost 200 women members.~4 At' the time of the 1996 direc-tory, the female membership stood at 223 out of a total of 1557 members, or about 14 percent. The history of the growth of the membership of women in the CLSA is part of the growth of la~Yomember-ship. Already in1,37 the CLSA's committee on membership was concerned with appropriate criteria. The concern was not specif-ically about women, but about qualifications that would assure that interested persons, lay or clerical, would have knowledge about the science of canon law. Before this point a potential mem-ber was sponsored by a current member and his name given to the committee on membership for its approval before being voted on by all those gathered at the national convention. That this rather cumbersome way of enrolling new members needed to be revised was a common opinion at the time. Thomas J. Lynch,~5 chair of the committee on membership, wrote in a report to the board of governors that, in the proposed revision of the constitutions (1967), the CLSA will "rid our con-stitution of any unnecessary clericalism and will also insure that the active and voting membership of the society will be composed of persons whose professional qualifications give them a special com-petence in matters of renewal and revision of law." ,6 As executive secretary, after receiving increased correspon-dence from many interested parties, James Provost laid his con-cerns about qualifications for membership before the board of Initially, the impetus for women to become members of the CLSA was that congregations of women religious might derive more benefit from canon law. Mt{y-June 1999 Range ¯ l, Vomen and Canon Law governors.'7 In 1980 a constitutional amendment was finalized requiring a person to have a degree in canon law in order to be an active member. Others could be associate members, but without the right to vote at the conventions.~s In 1995 a survey was distributed to women members at the annual convention held in conjunction with the Canadian Canon Law Society in Montreal. Its purpose was to discover the experi-ence of women as members of the CLSA. One hundred three responses were returned, with seventeen women indicating asso-ciate membership, the rest active membership. The responses demonstrated a positive experience within the society; there were a few exceptions, but even they did not indicate major difficulties. One commented that the CLSA was "one of the best kept secrets of the American Church." A tone must have been set many years ago, another respondent speculated, to be inclusive of women.19 Although there is no documentation of a policy decision that ver-ifies that statement, the facts sifice 1968 attest to its reality. The inclusion of women on committees, their election to national posi-tions as officers and consultors, and their presentations at plenary sessions and seminars during regional and national conventions-- all this has been remarkable over the last thirty years. Already in 1971 a woman was a member of the religious-affairs committee; in 1972 a woman was on the legal-council committee as well.2° Twice women have been elected vice-president/presi-dent- elect and have assumed the full responsibility of that office. This office is a challenging one for its incumbent, whether male or female, and certainly for a nonordained female. In addition to chairing the board of governors, the president's responsibilities include communications with the hierarchy of the United States, with the various dicasteries of the Vatican, with the canon-law societies of other countries, and with the members of various dioce-san offices throughout the country. The leadership of the society is challenging internally also, since most of the members are still clerics, including bishops, archbi.shops, and cardinals. Besides the increased membership of women in the society and their activity within it, the agendas of the CLSA have been modified because of the interests of the women members and the" commitment of the leadership and membership to women's issues. Already in 1970, at the national convention in New Orleans, a resolution was passed that stated: "The Canon Law Society of America instructs the subcommittee of its task force on the revi- Review for Religious sion of the Code of Canon Law to study the canonical institutions concerning the dignity, freedom, rights, privileges, offices, and obligations of women in the church and to propose those changes necessary to ensure the equitable consideration of all persons regardless of sex by the law of the church.''2~ In 1973 the society cosponsored with the Adrian Dominican Sisters a meeting of canonists and theologians at their college, Siena Heights, to address the question of the ordination of women from a variety of per-spectives?~ In 1972 the board of governors established an ad hoc com-mittee on the status of women in the church; it became a regular committee in 1973.23 At the conven-tion of 1975, Margaret Brennan IHM presented a major address titled "Standing in Experience: A Reflection on the Status of Women in the church." In 1976 a symposium was held at Rosemont College in Pennsylvania on Women and Church Law; in view of the revision going on at the time, it studied how the law addresses women. It published a con-sensus paper, signed by the twenty-four participants, with sug-gestions concerning how the church in the United States might address some of the inequities from which women suffered.24 In 1987 the members of the committee on women raised the question of its future viability. Even though it regularly invited the society's membership to present it with significant issues, the committee had little business to deal with, This was the reason for the eventual elimination of this committee. Its concerns were taken up by a new committee on the laity in the church?5 From 1988 on, some members of the CLSA were involved with the canon-ical dimensions of the U.S. bishops' Letter on Women that was eventually published in 1990.26 A resolution was taken by the society in 1992 to study the question of the diaconate for women. In 1995 the report by the ad hoc committee, "The Canonical Implications of Ordaining Women to the Permanent Diaconate," was presented to the national con-vention and accepted by the membership.27 This document received a wide distribution to other professional societies and to the National Conference of Catholic Bishops (NCCB). A resolution was taken by the society in 1992 to study the question of the diaconate for women. 271 May-.Tune 1999 Range ¯ Women and Canon Law With the promulgation of Pope John Paul II's apostolic let-ter Ordinatio sacerdotalis stating that the church has no authority to ordain women, the activity of the society on some of these issues perforce ceased, and no new initiatives on this issue have been forthcoming. Some study is being done on the question of the laity sharing in the power of jurisdiction, obviously an important issue, for .lay people function more and more in various offices in the church, It remains to be seen, however, if gender-specific issues will continue to inform the society's agenda. Participation in the annual conventions also reflects the change in the presence of women. In 1967 there were no women at the national convention. In 1968 the female participants were superi-ors of religious orders. In 1969-1970 some women religious were present as well as some major superiors.2s In 1971 there were 9 women registered at the convention in Atlanta, out of 224 partic-ipants. As more and more women begame members of the CLSA, more and more of them have attended both the regional and national conventions.29 In the women's responses to the question-naire mentioned above, they noted the quality of exchange at both regional and national conventions. They are a continuing educa-tional experience for the female membership, as they are for oth-ers who attend these meetings. 272 Women's Education in Canon Law It is clear that many of the women members of the CLSA are active members with degrees in canon law. The obtaining of these degrees is a completely novel achievement in the history of women and canon law. In North America there are two schools from which a woman can receive a degree in canon law: the Catholic University of American in Washington, D.C., and St. Paul University in Ottawa. Most U.S. women have chosen one of these two schools for their canonical education. Among the European schools, most women have chosen the Angelicum, which teaches courses in English, and a few the Gregorian, which until onl~ recently taught its courses in Latin. In 1990 John E. Lynch CSP published an interesting and infor-mative article about the history of the Department of Canon Law at the Catholic University of America, "Laying Down the (Canon) Law at Catholic University.m° The occasion for the article was the centenary of Catholic University. In it he remarked that in Review Jbr Religious 1959 women were enrolling in canon law in Rome.3' That had not yet occurred in North America and not at Catholic University, but it would occur in 1967. The first woman to enroll was Clara Marie Henning, a native of Germany. After that, the numbers of women students increased gradually and now have remained con-stant for some time. The first women students, except for Ms. Henning, were women religious.32 The topics of their theses and dissertations represented the concerns of women in the early 1970s, after the close of the council: religious formation, authority, the LCWR, the legal status of women, the pastoral nature of canon law.3~ Besides this continued interest in the concerns of women religious, later tides indicate an interest in the position of lay people in the church: for example, participation in the munus sanctificandi, and ministry and the layperson.34 Still later tides indicate a broadening of inter-est: for example, the relation of canon law to civil law, and the relation of bishops to diocesan church institutions. Licentiate (JCL) theses usually presaged what those who con-tinued on to the doctorate in canon law (JCD) would write their dis-sertations about. Many of the topics arose from the first draft of the soon-to-be-revised Code: lay employees, rights and obligations of Christian parents, tribunal personnel. Also, a number of theses compared the historic 1983 revision with the 1917 Code. When women first entered Catholic University's Department of Canon Law as students, it could be presumed that they would make a difference in the classroom. After the early wave (women religious, all but one), a number Of lay women as well (and men, too) entered the ranks of students. To assess this presumption of difference, I seized an opportunity to interview the faculty of the department in December 1996: Father James Provost (chair), Father John E. Lynch CSP, Father Thomas Green, Father Edward Pfnausch, Sister Rose McDermott ssJ, and Father John Beal.3s Their reflections on the difference women make are interesting and substantiate what I consider an exceedingly important dimen-sion of women's contribution to canon law, that is, women's human-izing effect. Every one of the faculty indicated that the presence of women made the conversation within the class richer; the questions they asked and their observations were different from the ques-tions of the traditional clerical students.36 At first the women stu-dents did not know some of the vocabulary (nor did entering laymen). One of the faculty recalls mentioning the title "vicar May-ffune 1999 273 Range ¯ Women and Canon Law forane," a term completely unfamiliar to the women. But, when this and other technical phrases were learned, the difficulty was sur-mounted. Women and men, according to ~he faculty members inter-viewed, are equally intelligent. A number of them indicated that women seem to work harder, perhaps to catch up with the clerics because of the unfamiliar discourse, perhaps because of a greater personal commitment to learning the field. By and large women are eager students and indicate an appreciation for the dedication of their ifistructors. They suffered from some rather mediocre teaching, but the men suffered from them equally with the women.37 No resentment toward women students precisely because of their gender, however, seems to have marred their educational experience, Women have been elected to leadership within the student body and have functioned well in those positions. They quickly initiated social events that, rich in student exchange, aided schol, arly interests along with providing amiable relaxation. The male students in those same positions of leadership had not been as cre-ative in these important social dimensions of student life. The mission of the faculty in this department derives from their conviction that canon law is g/tided by its theological and pastoral nature. This conviction permeates the curriculum and challenges the students to understand it as an ecclesial discipline, a sister to scriptural, systematic, moral, and church-history stud-ies and influenced by the conclusi6ns of those studies, even as canon law has an influence on them. This understanding of the nature of canon law informs the entire curriculum and therefore shapes the intellectual formation of the students for their future careers as canon lawyers. In my discussions with the faculty, the question arose about the influence of feminism on canon law. In general, the faculty agreed that the agenda of feminism, as various as it is, does not signifi-cantly influence either the students or the classes. Earlier on, given especially the newness of women to the field, the place of women in the 1917 Code, and the questions about women's place in the revised Code, women's'issues had more sig-nificance than they currently have. At that time (through the 1970s) some of the female students manifested some anger due to these issues. Today, however, the nature of law seems to move the direc-tion of the students' questions and concerns much more than gen-der issues do. The women students are not angry, nor are their Review for Religious instructors. Rather, they are typical students focused on complet-ing their studies and finding positions that fulfill their educational goals. The question of secure employment in the church, with its attendant concerns, is more of an issue with them, women and lay men alike, than gender issues. However, as justice issues, gender concerns remain for both instructors and students, now usually subsumed in the issues of the role of the layperson in the church. Women's Involvement in. Writing Canon Law Perhaps the most original activity that women have engaged in regarding canon law is the actual writing of legislation intended to be incorporated within the revised Code of Canon Law. Whether or not the canons made their way into the final text of the 1983 Code is not the point here. Rather, it is the activity itself, utterly newin the history of the church as far as I have been able to determine. How did this creative effort on the part of women begin? Sister M. Luke Tobin SL, president of the CMSW from 1964 to 1967, was invited in 1964 to be an official observer at the Vatican Council during the 1964 and 1965 sessions. This invitation itself indicated that the council fathers wanted the participation of women in the process of developing the church's self-understand-ing in the modern world?8 The law of the church, canon law, needed to express this new self-understanding ,as well. In the United States, women religious felt that their experience of their own lives as women religious was an important contribution towards an appropriately revised Code of Canon Law. This activ-ity would engage many of the members of the CMSW during the late 1960s and the 1970s. The board of CMSW began in 1965 to consider writing the regulations for ~governing the lives of women religious in the Code of Canon Law)9 It initiated a project for accomplishing this. Committees were formed in the several regions to write proposed canons dealing with the various aspects of religious life: the vows, authority, community life, formation, apostolate, prayer, and so forth. At the annual conventions of the CMSW from 1967 to 1971, the committees gave reports about the progress of their work. Eventually the conference published a document containing the proposed norms. It received a wide distribution in this country May-June 1999 275 276 Range ¯ Women and Canon Law and abroad, going to all the religious congregations and to the bishops.4° As this endeavor continued, the confidence of the women grew; they recognized the possibilities of the project. Moreover, they sought assistance from canonical experts to assist them in this unique activity. The CLSA was instrumental in assisting the various committees in this endeavor. Father Paul Boyle CP, a canon lawyer, was out-standing in his leadership in this area for women religious.4' Already as president of CLSA, he had communicated his vision of including women in the revision process. Later, as executive sec-retary, he increased his activity along this line. The recognition by the canonists of women's lack of education in canon law led to the establishment of summer institutes for a number of them. Certificates were earned and credit gained for these educa-tional endeavors. Father Kevin O'Rourke OP assumed the respon-sibility for these institutes by sponsoring them, developing them, enlisting the faculty for them, and negotiating their locations. They were held in different Catholic colleges in the country. A number of the graduates of these programs later completed their education in canon law at pontifical schools of canon law. Besides this educational assistance, the CLSA, following Paul VI's Ecdesiae sanctae (1966) implementing the conciliar document Perfectae caritatis, developed institutes to assist women religious in managing the process of renewal in their congregations. Pope Paul's decree instructed communities to hold general chapters to write their constitutions and to somehow engage the entire con-gregation in that effort. Experimentation, too, was mandated. Experimentation and writing canonical documents were some-thing for which most religious communities needed assistance. These endeavors of the CLSA were empowering experiences for the women and their religious communities. Hitherto the women were by and large ignorant of canon law and canonical procedures. They were, however, well-educated, intelligent, competent leaders within their religious congregations and deeply committed to the renewal that the church had mandated. The assistance of the CLSA empowered them and many other women in their congregations. Enthusiasm to recover the origins of their congregations, to learn about the remarkable women who had founded them, to encounter the Word of God through a knowledge of the Scriptures, and to assess the needs of the world through a study of the "signs of the times" generated an enormous energy within these communities.42 Review for Religious The results of this monumental effort have not yet been com-pletely assessed. Many studies today record it, some positively, other negatively, but it is still too close chronologically for it to be judged adequately.43 The energy, however, remains within reli-gious communities, smaller and older though they may be. Initiatives in forming new kinds of religious communities con-tinue in the church as well.** The renewal enterprise conducted among the CMSW, the reli-gious communities, and the CLSA is one of the finest stories to come out of the post-Vatican II Church. It included not only these organizations, but also the hierar-chy of the United States. There was an extraordinarydemonstra-tion of mutual encouragement and support among these diverse orga-nizations regarding the revision of the Code of Canon Law. The pos-sibility of participating together in the revision of the canons that governed the life of women reli-gious was realized through this " effort. The Conference of Major Superiors of Men (CMSM) was obviously interested in the same endeavor.4s The Canon Law Society of America responded to the announcement by Pope John XXIII as professional canon lawyers whose expertise was not sim-ply in the practice of law, but in developing it through the proposed revision process.46 These three organizations joined in this endeavor with an unusual demonstration of cooperation. Besides these, the bishops' conference in the United States became the conduit through which the efforts of the organiza-tions were channeled to the Pontifi(al Commission for the Revision of Canon Law, whose responsibility it was to finally formulate the revision. Communication among these organizations was full of enthusiasm and respect. There was no hint of competitiveness, no turf war, no condescension toward women, who were at that time uneducated as canon lawyers. What was desired from the women was the expression of their experience of their own lives and their reflection upon that experience. The mutuality of this common endeavor is one of the finest examples of how women and men can work together to accom- Experimentation and writing canonical documents were something for which most religious communities needed assistance. 277 May-.~une 1.o99 Range * Women and Canon Law plish something for the benefit of all. As the process of revision continued, difficulties emerged, of course. When the canonical text, the Code itself, and the communities' constitutions were finalized and promulgated, the energy that had informed the orig-inal process waned. The vitality of experimentation, of developing powerful and inspiring texts, of consulting all the members of communities in that effort, of creating a vocabulary that resonated with the language of the documents of Vatican II and with the pat-rimony of individual communities--all this vitality wound down as perhaps it inevitably had to after final, authoritative texts were promulgated. As rdigious communities developed their constitutions during these years, their experience shaped their identifies in a remarkable way. The expressions within many of these constitutions were utterly original as documents for identifying and regulating the lives of women religious. In the process of havin~ their constitu-tions reviewed, both the Congregation. for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life and the individ-ual congregations had much to learn. Although by now most of the problems have been resolved, there are still some communities that do not have their constitutions approved. This phenomenon bears the marks of the encounter between creative initiatives, orig-inal expressions of religious life, and traditional modes of canon-ical expression. The Code defines the constitutions of religious communities as' their particular law. The universal law within the Code presents the guidelines for the constitutions, but does not provide their content. Nevertheless,.the originality of many of these documents from religious communities presented new difficulties for both the congregations themselves and the Vatican officials, who had never seen such documents before. This encounter has been very instructive for all the institutions involved. With the promulgation of the revised Code of Canon Law in 1983 and with the finalization of their constitutions, women are no longer engaged in writing the law that regulates their lives. Periodically constitutions need to be resubmitted to the church for approval. Calls for change and for dispensations are part of the regular communication between the Vatican and women's con-gregations. But creativity and initiatives no longer inform the legal expressions of women religious. Extraordinary documents, though, still emerge from congregational meetings addressing the issues Review Jbr Religio~ts that women religious face at the end of the second millennium. How these documents influence the legally binding texts remains a question for the future. Past, Present, and Future This article has investigated the extraordinary entrance of women into a