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This paper analyzes recent automotive investment in the Slovak Republic and shows how the development of the automotive industry has influenced growth in productivity and output in the broader economy. The study also discusses the motivations for automotive investment, with the country evolving from a relative laggard in reform implementation and foreign direct investment in the late 1990s to one of the region's top performers and one of the fastest-growing economies. It is argued that strong reform implementation, together with continued and credible commitment to reforms, were both preconditions for attracting automotive investments and the key factors that enabled these investments to flourish. The reform efforts were made possible by strong political consensus on accelerating European Union (EU) accession and boosting living standards. Taking into account the specificity of the industry, other aspects related to factor endowments have also played a role. Generous investment incentives appear to have played an important role in swaying foreign investors in selecting the Slovak Republic within the broader region of central Europe. Once investment in automotive production started, it contributed to additional investment by suppliers that has helped generate locally owned suppliers. These, in turn, are beginning to supply car producers in neighboring countries. All told, the full impact of the original automotive investment will be felt only over several years, but even in the early years it has been substantial. With output at the existing three producers set to reach capacity only by 2010, the impact is likely to be more substantial still.

Transcript of an oral history interview with David Zobeck conducted by Sarah Yahm at the Sullivan Museum and History Center on February 10, 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project. The bulk of the interview focuses on Zobeck's experiences as an an instructor of the Transcendental Meditation technique, both at Norwich University and elsewhere. ; 1 David Zobeck, NU Instructor, Oral History Interview February 10, 2015 Interviewed by Sarah Yahm SARAH YAHM: So, I'm here with Dave Zobeck at Norwich, in our little studio at the Sullivan Museum. It is February 10th, 2015, which I know because tomorrow is my birthday. DAVE ZOBECK: Well, happy birthday tomorrow, in advance. SY: Thank you. I wasn't fishing for that or anything. DZ: No, not at all. SY: (laughs) And we're about to do an oral history interview. And so, question one is where were you born? DZ: I was born in Pueblo, Colorado, which happens to be a steel mill town. And it is the largest steel mill west of the Mississippi. And it's a town with wonderful mixed ethnicity. So, my neighborhood was from Yugoslavia, from Ljubljana in Yugoslavia, in Slovenia. And there's about a 12 or 13 block, square block area near the -- right on top of the steel mill. And then, on the other side of the bridge, there's a good-size Italian community. And now Latinos, mostly Mexicans, dominate the city's population. There's an African American population as well, Jewish and Greek. So, it's kind of like a little Pittsburgh. Little bit of everything. And I love it. It was a marvelous experience. I'm one of eight children, so we were good and Catholic. SY: What's your birth order? DZ: My -- I'm the sixth out of eight. So, I have a younger brother and a younger sister, yeah. SY: Number six. DZ: Yes. SY: You're, like, in the messy middle, right? DZ: Yes, kinda sorta, yeah. But, yeah, it was -- so, it's a marvelous experience growing up in that city. And really paid dividends, being exposed to all the different ethnicities. And, you know, we have pictures of -- when we were on our baseball team, it kind of looked like something out of the United Nations, you know? Little bit of everything. And we were cursed in several different languages when we won games, and it was marvelous. It was good experience. SY: Were there turf wars or was it [pretty immigrant?] -- DZ: No, no, not at all. It was very integrated. And especially my neighborhood, it was truly the statement about it takes a community to raise a child. I mean, the families looked out for each other and -- very much so. SY: Were your parents immigrants, too? DZ: My father -- my grandparents were. My father was born in this country. And my dad -- the house that I grew up in is the house that my father grew up in. So, my grandmother bought the house after my grandfather died in a -- extraordinary accident at work where he was killed with -- by a train. And my father was standing there, watching. And so, they bought the house, and my grandmother was raising the rest of the children. They had five children, and then she was also -- it was a boarding -- she was -- like a boarding house for steel mill workers. So, she would cook for them and so on and so forth, and that would help pay the rent and so on, so forth, so -- SY: And was that happening when you were a kid? 2 DZ: No, no, that was when my father was six years old. So -- SY: Oh, so she raised him alone? DZ: She raised them alone, yes. So, you know, it's a neighborhood and a community of extremely excellent work ethic. And if you're not work-- I mean, there was no welfare, just out of pride. Not that there wasn't a need for it. But no one would accept that. SY: Union town? DZ: Yes, and -- but they -- just was not going to happen. And everyone was -- you know, very -- oh, the yards were really well kept. The kids were clean, the -- you know, there was little to no crime other than orneriness. You know, lot of patriotism. Lot of guys went to war, and -- during World War II and then during Vietnam, my generation. So, it was a very beautiful experience because, you know, we were raised Catholic. The mass was in Slovenian for the older folks that didn't speak English. And then, you know, all the festivities and holidays -- and some of my friends who were Greek and Italian and Mexican and -- you know, when they had the festivals and -- everybody went and mixed, and it was great. It was a -- it's a marvelous place to grow up, but very -- definitely very blue collar. And all the children in my family worked their way through college. And that was the joy of my father, to see everyone with a college degree, of course, and all of our children and his grandchildren and great-grandchildren have -- everyone that could have graduated from college -- like, 48 of us or something like that, total, with nieces and nephews have graduated from college. And we expect success. We're going to make that. So, it was a really beautiful -- yeah, I'm very fortunate. SY: So, growing up, was the expectation that you would work in the steel mill or that you would get out? DZ: Oh, my family didn't work at the steel mill. My father didn't want that. He wanted us to do something different and -- not that it was a negative thing, but -- SY: He had seen his father die in a work-related accident. DZ: He did, and -- but he worked in a clothing store for a long time and was the manager of a clothing store. And then it burned down. And because he had assisted a customer who was extremely well off in -- fitting him with a suit, my father was excellent at doing that. And he was cleaning up the store one night after hours and he looked in the dressing room where this man was trying on his clothes, and he saw a paper bag and it was filled with money. And so, he knew who that belonged to. So, my father never drove a car. We didn't own a car. And my mother and father never drove a car their entire lives. Got on the bus and it took him, you know, an hour or so to get across town. And he knocked on the door, presented this bag of money to this gentleman. And, of course, he offered my father a reward, and that wasn't going to happen. And he got back on the bus, got home. Well, after the store burned down, my father was scrambling, looking for a job and "What are we going to do?" He has eight kids, and phone rings one day and it's this gentleman who left his money in the store. And he said, "I understand that the store burned down and you might be looking for work." He said, "If you call this number at the Pueblo ordnance depot," it's an Army depot, "they might be able to direct you some employment." So, my father called, and sure enough connected him to a job. So, he worked there for another, you know, 25 years as a federal government employee and was able to continue to support us and that sort of thing. So, you know, there -- it was a beautiful story, but I don't look back on it -- I don't feel -- we don't feel sorry for ourselves. It wasn't a poor us -- you know, we were poor, but it -- we were not at the 3 same time. I mean, we were rich with my parents and my brothers and sisters. And it was always a fun place for friends to come to the house, because they knew my mother would love them, and we would have a good time. And we were all athletic, we liked to play. And, you know, thank God, with all -- as rowdy as we were, there were no broken bones in the family or any sort of major illnesses. And so, in that regard, it was a -- we were real fortunate. But I'm extremely fortunate, so -- I had a marvelous upbringing. Marvelous. Yeah, no complaints. SY: So, well, I have two questions. DZ: Sure. SY: First of all, when you're a little kid and you're this kid running around on the streets, right, playing outside -- DZ: Sure. SY: -- what'd you want to be when you grew up? What were your dreams and visions? And also, what did you play? Do you remember if you had imaginary games that you played? DZ: Well, first of all, the games -- we played every sport imaginable. And one of the reasons is that, you know, we didn't go skiing because we didn't have the money or the transportation. But we did have a shotgun in the house, so my brother and I went hunting, you know? We would hunt ducks and geese and pheasants and, you know, quail and rabbit and -- not deer. We didn't have a rifle, but -- and we would eat everything that we shot. It was pretty good. So, that was one of the things that we did. The other thing -- I mean, we just dreamt of -- one of the things I wanted to be when I was younger was I wanted to be a professional baseball player. I always thought that I would be "in the show," you know? And I'm sure every young boy in that neighborhood who took up a glove and a ball and a bat had the same thing. I mean, we always had the same -- we thought we would all be on the same team. I mean, there was so much community spirit. And then, my younger brother was drafted several times and was very magical in his talents. And so, he was better than I was. He was younger. And that was my dream, that he -- then it, my dream, kind of shifted from myself doing that to him. So, I was helping him do everything he could to do that, because that was our dream. And in his senior year in college, unfortunately, he was injured and didn't get to make it. And that was a -- at that time, of course, it was a tragic event for both of us, you know? We saw this dream go by. But I think, at one point, I thought, early on -- I thought I might be a priest. And there was always this idea that the oldest -- I mean, one of the boys in every family would become a priest. And so, I thought it was me, and I enjoyed that thought. It was kind of cool. I just loved the parish priest. He was from Slovenia, and he was just -- he had such a heart of gold. He liked to help everyone, and I liked that feeling of helping everyone, and then the idea of saying mass and that was kind of cool. And these Catholic nuns, some of them were much better than others, of course. But there was one that was particularly interesting, and she was from our neighborhood. She grew up in our neighborhood, so she knew our culture and everything. So, she was -- she really took me under her wing, as she did all the children. But I just thought that was going to be something I would do, and even continue to think that when I was in the Air Force later on. I thought, as I was getting out of the Air Force, that I might become a Catholic priest. SY: Really? DZ: I thought so. I had the idea that I just wanted to do something extraordinary. And I thought maybe I would -- I talked to this priest when I was stationed in Torrejón Air Base 4 in Spain, in Madrid, Spain. And I told him that I wanted to become a priest. I thought I wanted -- I just wanted to talk to him about it. I wasn't 100 percent sure. And so, you know, we had these different chats from time to time, and then finally concluded that I could do priestly work because isn't everyone a priest? Isn't everyone a rabbi? Isn't everyone a minister? Can't you do that without having to wear the cloth and do that? So, he said, "You know, I think you'd be a wonderful father, and you would have that opportunity to do many things as well as help people." And so, it was a real cool experience. It wasn't a letdown. It was just, I think, a good part of my vision of doing things greater -- that I knew I didn't have to be one particular thing to do everything that I wanted to do. So -- SY: You're certainly doing pastoral work now. DZ: Well, you know, the interesting thing is, right after I got out of the Air Force, I had -- and I know you're probably going to -- I'm probably ahead of schedule here, but as far as -- SY: Chaos is my middle name. (laughter) Linearity? Whatever. DZ: OK. (laughter) Yeah, "so what if I have these questions that you're answering before I ask them?" SY: Oh, no, no, no. I write them down -- DZ: I'm teasing. SY: I never look at them. DZ: Yeah. SY: I just have them. DZ: Yeah, yeah, no that's good. SY: [For?] just in case. DZ: Good reference. SY: Yeah. DZ: But when I was finishing my last -- I was in the Air Force for four years. And when I finished my last -- the four years, last part of the four years, I was stationed in Torrejón Air Base in Spain, in Madrid, Spain. And I had already learned to meditate when I was in Tucson, Arizona, couple of years prior. And I got into some advanced courses, and I really enjoyed -- my friend and I started running, and then we started doing some camping, and we started watching what we were eating. And there was no -- there were very few guidelines at that time. We just started thinking about -- there has to be something to the quality of food that you put in your system, and how it helps your system perform. And, you know, kind of like the type of fuel or -- that you put in your vehicle. So, we thought we were just on the cutting edge, you know, with that thinking. And then, we would go camping and hiking, and we would just do the extreme stuff, like go -- we're going to go to the top of this mountain, we're going to camp out, and then we're going to come back. And this is what we do on the weekend when we're stationed in Tucson. And it was -- beautiful place to be. So, we would run together and [just?] that sort of thing. And one day, the -- there was an advertisement in the base activity center. And it said there's a yoga class. So, he said, "Let's go. Let's go check it out." So, this woman was talking about yoga and how it would benefit you. And we said, you know, why not? What do we have to lose? Nothing. So -- SY: Now, what year is this? What -- DZ: It was 1972. SY: OK, so this is the beginning or it -- 5 DZ: Yeah. SY: Yeah, OK. DZ: Nineteen seventy-two. Beginning of my four years. SY: [And you're?] -- DZ: Actually '71, I got in. But in '72, I was stationed in Tucson. SY: So, if you were in the Air Force, right -- DZ: Yes. SY: -- and yoga at this point is, like, firmly the bastion of, like, hippie stuff. DZ: Total hippie stuff, there's no question about it. SY: So, I'm having trouble picturing this guy in the Air Force being, like, "Sure, I'll go to yoga!" DZ: Well, it wasn't just "sure, I'll go to yoga." I said, "Let's check this out, you know, before we do that." And then she was talking about -- what caught our attention was she was talking about the benefits it had. And we were in that mode of how do we make our nervous systems function at a higher level? And so, we're running, and we got this runner's high. That's what the mode of, you know, the day was. You're going to get your runner's high, and we felt that. And then, we went hiking, and we would run up in the mountains in the higher levels and just say, you know, this is really cool. And all this healthy stuff. And we didn't drink and we didn't do pot. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life or even drank a cup of coffee. But I just thought there has to be some high and some way to get that inside of you. There has to be more inside than outside. What I see that grows out of the earth -- and people smoke pot and do all that sort -- that's good for them or whatever. They think that's good for them and that's their choice, no problem. But has to be the same or more inside. I have to be able to go inside and get to that place. Because when we would camp, we would look out and see the sky, and it would be -- and we'd see all these -- [well, you know?], in Flagstaff, Arizona, for example, we would look, and as far as -- I mean, it was just beautiful. And we would [say?] -- as far as we can see and then beyond what we can see still is space. So, it has to be the same thing inside. It has to be as far as we can go and beyond where we can go. It has to continually be space, so it has to be a reflection -- the outside has to be a reflection of the inside. And so, this woman started talking about yoga and "this position will create this flow in your circulation and will bring awareness and alertness to your mind," because she was talking to us in kind of a scientific way. And then we would start twisting around and doing things and -- you know, I didn't buy into all of it, for sure. It's a little too much. But we were doing that, and then -- we did that for about -- I don't know, about a month straight, and we would go to these classes three or four times a week. And we liked it. It was neat. And then, you know, lo and behold, here's this picture of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the community center on base. And it said there's a lecture on Transcendental Meditation. So, he said, "Hey, let's go to that one." I said, "Are you sure?" And he goes, "Yeah, let's go." I said, "All right, what do we have to lose? Let's go," right? So, we sat there. So, in comes this guy who was a Marine Corps veteran, and he had had two tours in Vietnam. And he sat down, and we -- there were about four of us, I think, that showed up. And, you know, introduced himself and was very casual, and start talking about meditation. And then he said, "My story is that I served two tours in Vietnam." So, that caught our attention. And he said, "When I got back, I knew there was something more. I was looking for something more." And he said, "So, I got back to Tucson, then I just 6 went to California. And I cruised around in the mountains, and I stayed on my own and I just kind of let this stress go out of my system. And then I start doing some thinking in this silence." And he said, "What I wanted to do was become a meditation teacher." So, he said, "When I came back to Tucson, I gathered my things and found out that there was a course in India where I could go and study with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi." He said, "So, I did it." So, he said, "When I went there" -- he said, "I had -- keep in mind, I hadn't listened to the radio, I hadn't watched TV, I haven't been in circulation in society for two or three years. So, I just went there to study. I was just going to be by myself and listen to this guy and then come back and teach people, because that's what I wanted to do." When he got there, he said there were people from -- international group. They were from all over the world. And so, he said Maharishi would come out and talk about meditation and different concepts of consciousness. And, in the evening, then he would retire. He would go into his room. And so, it was a young crowd, and they would hang out, kind of on the shore of the Ganges. And they would cook and, you know, associate with each other and sing and so on, so forth. So, he said there were these guys that were -- these four guys, and they had guitars. And they would sit around and they would make up poems and songs about people on the course. And one of the women on the course was named Prudence. And she was extremely shy. She was the sister of an actress, Mia Farrow. So -- and Mia was there. And so, he didn't know anybody. Keep that in mind. Just as innocent as you can imagine this so far. I know you're grinning and you know what's going on. So, anyway, Prudence, who I met a few years ago -- she's a marvelous human being and just a dear, dear person -- she would go to her room, because she was extremely shy. Extremely shy. And so, they kind of wanted the -- these guys kind of wanted to draw her out, so they made up a song. So, they went to her door and they knocked on her door, and they sing, "Dear Prudence, why don't you come out and play? Dear Prudence," yeah. And, you know, she didn't come out, and then eventually she did. And she would -- she was still very shy. And so, they were making up different songs about different situations. And so, they started to talk to my friend. And so, they called him G.I. Joe, because he had these fatigue pants on. And he didn't have his -- you know, he was -- you could wear your fatigue pants, just -- it didn't say Marine Corps, didn't say sergeant or anything like that. So, he had that. And he didn't really care how he looked, and he was just there for the knowledge. And so, they start making up a song about GI Joe. They called him GI Joe and that sort of thing and so, you know, hey, that was kind of cool, you know? So, anyway, he became a teacher. He came back from India. He was going to his first lecture and he turns on his radio in his little jalopy that he was driving, and what comes across the radio was, "Jojo was a man from Tucson, Arizona. He smoked some California grass. Get back, Jojo. Get back to where you once belonged." Get back to the USSR. And he said, "I've heard that song before." And someone said, "Yeah, those are the Beatles." He said, "Really?" And then he -- start telling stories about, you know, John Lennon. He said he had these multi-colored glasses on and he had, you know, long hair, and he used to wear these necklaces. And he was really bright, and how he would have conversations with Maharishi. And Paul McCartney, of course. And then Prudence later on was married, and she had a son and she named him Paul. And so, they're still really good friends. And he told stories about that. But it wasn't about them, the idea that he liked -- that he related to me that was intriguing is that this man had some knowledge. Maharishi had some knowledge to take 7 you within yourself. And it wasn't about him, it was just about the knowledge that he had received from previous masters, and he passed it on. And now, this guy could teach this information. And that was really intriguing to him. So, we started, and it was everything that it was cranked up to be. I'd started with no expectation. I thought -- same thing I did with yoga. Like, if this is going to work, it's going to work. I'll do exactly how they say to do it, and I'll get the results. So, we did. And my friend Scott Nichols and I started on the same day, and since that time I've been meditating regular, and I haven't missed one time since I started. I think it is everything that it's cranked up to be. And what inspired me to become a teacher was just the idea that I felt really good already. I didn't -- I wasn't in any dire straits to learn a technique that would pull me out of some stressful situation in my life. SY: So, you weren't -- you were seeking, but you weren't hungry. Doesn't -- DZ: Not [at?] -- well, you know, the thing is, I was hungry, but I wasn't desperate. SY: [Yeah?]. DZ: And I think I've always been a seeker of how to get better things in life. My own natural intensity pushes me to say I want to be the best I can be, I want every day to be the best day. What is this? You know, I want to see that. I don't want to get in dire straits to wait until I need something. What happens if you take it when you're already functioning, you know, fairly well? Can you get better? Can you get to the next level? And that's kind of the attitude I took with it. And when we began to meditate, it was just marvelous. I had better running times, I slept better. I performed better on tests. I had a lot more stamina. I was more organized. And, you know, it just opened up a whole new vision in my life. And I thought it was already really good. So, when I did that for a couple years, I thought when I got out, here's an opportunity to become a teacher. So, when I was in Spain, the Spanish TM [Transcendental Meditation] teacher in Madrid was a director of the Spanish organization, TM organization, and they were just going to start a teacher training course. And he said, "You'd be a fool to go back to the States. There's thousands of teachers, and everyone's taught everyone else, you know?" He said, "If you stay here, you can teach lots of people, because there's only going to be eight new teachers in the whole country." So, I love Spain, it was where I wanted to go since I was in fourth grade and drew a map of my favorite country other than United States. It was Spain. And I remember my father and I worked on this thing. We had glitter in the river and we had -- for the forest, we'd stopped up these little twigs. And it was on this big yellow piece of -- I can remember it clearly, and I was so excited. And then, when I got a chance to go there, it was marvelous. And I started to study Spanish on the base through the University of Maryland. I took five courses in a row for credit. And then I would just go downtown and practice. So, it came to me like riding a bike. I mean, it just -- it made sense to me. And I was in the country, and I would go down after class, and I would go to Madrid. And on the weekends, I would go to the train station and take a train to some little tiny pueblo someplace, just by myself to force myself to speak Spanish. And I would practice with the Spanish Air Force guys who shared the base with us, and go visit their families on weekends and stuff. And I went to the TM Center and did advanced courses. And I became pretty proficient in Spanish, so I became a teacher with the Spanish natives and did it all in Spanish. Eight months in the first two phases of a teacher training course. And [in the?] third phase, we went to [Avoriaz?], France, and studied with Maharishi, in person. So, I was their translator. And that's who made me a 8 teacher of TM. So, you kind of -- you follow exactly what he asks to do to make sure that the technique is done right. And it's effective, so it's not about you. It's about following what the masters did, and exactly in that same form. So, it was very, very challenging. But when I began to teach my first course, I went back to the base, Torrejón, and I taught 20 of my friends how to meditate, because they would -- they'd been wanting to meditate because they saw me meditate. And sometimes, they would just like to come in the room and sit quietly. And I didn't do anything. I don't sit in the lotus or go "om" or anything crazy. I just sit quietly in a chair, and that's really no big deal. So, that's how that began. So, I got a chance to travel around the country, and I taught about -- and then was lecturing in Spanish, of course. Probably taught about 900 people and -- for that whole year. And then, I came back to my hometown. And I was gone for about three years by that time. Hadn't seen my family in three years. And while I was sitting in the back of the -- on the back porch, my mother was ironing and -- you know, I was the only one -- the only sibling left in the house. Everyone else was married and out of the house. And my mother and father were there. So, this is my first time in my life I had a chance to be one on one with them. And it was marvelous, because I was certainly older then, and they didn't have all these other things going on. And, you know, my father was retired. And it was just one on one with my mother and father, like being an only child for a period of time. And it was glorious. I mean, my mother and father are just saintly. They're just magnificent human beings. I idolize them. The phone rings during a conversation. I pick up the phone, and there is a woman on the other end, and she asks me my name. "Are you Dave Zobeck?" "Yes." "Do you teach Transcendental Meditation?" "Yes." "Would you like to teach in the Colorado State Penitentiary, TM?" I said, "Yes." She said -- I said, "How did you get my name? I mean, I've only been home a week." She said, "I'll tell you later, so -- but tomorrow, I'm going to show up in front of your house. Give me your address. You're going to follow me to the penitentiary. We're going to talk to the warden at the maximum security penitentiary, and I'm going to try to convince him that we need this, because we have so much violence and we need something. And I'm sure this will work." "OK." So, we went down there, we talked to him. He put us on hold and he said, you know, "That sounds great." We hit it off right away. He was a Latino guy. He had a little Spanish accent, we begin to speak Spanish, he -- then, that kind of melted the barriers. And on the way back from the maximum -- oh, on the way out of the penitentiary or out of our meeting at the maximum security penitentiary, Tia, the guard, had to go to work. So, she was dressed in her uniform, of course. And she said -- she turned to me and she shook my hand. She said, "Good job, white boy." I said, "Great, there you go. That's good." And that was cool, I mean, you know? That was -- I had no problem with that. SY: No, you were in. DZ: I felt very comfortable with that, and I grew up in that kind of atmosphere. In the service, of course, same thing, and I loved it. And on the way home -- it was 50 miles away from my home in Pueblo. It was in Canyon City, and I stopped at the medium security penitentiary, just on a whim, and I thought I'm going to see if the program director's in. And so, I went down and I stopped at the guard shack, and I told them I had an appointment with the program director, which was a little on the untrue side. And he said, "Go right down and they'll help you out." So, I drove my vehicle down there and they patted me down and escorted me to the -- a bench outside of this office and said, 9 "You'll have to wait here. He has someone in his office." And so, I was waiting in my little coat and tie, and there was an inmate and he was swabbing the deck. He was cleaning, mopping up. And, of course, he's there with his number on one side and his last name on the other side. And he looks at me, and he says, "Hey, what are you doing? Are you a lawyer?" I said, "No, are you?" And he goes, "No." He goes, "I like that answer." He goes, "What are you doing, man?" I said, "Well, I'm here to see if the medium security personnel are open to the idea of a meditation class." He said, "What kind of meditation? Transcendental Meditation?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Do you know George Ellis?" I said, "Yeah, I know George Ellis. George Ellis is a meditation teacher." He said, "How do you know George?" I said, "Two weeks ago, I met him in France." He said, "What'd you think?" I said, "I like George. He's a small guy, big ego." I said, "I like him." He goes, "Yep, that's George." He said, "Well, he taught me in Folsom Penitentiary. So, I do Transcendental Meditation." He said, "I'll tell you what. Here's what you do. You wait 'til you see Mr. Marshall, the programs director. When you come out, I'll have 20 of the toughest blomp-blomp-blomp-blomp-blomp guys here in the penitentiary, and we're going to start." I said, "Is that how it works?" He said, "That's how it works." I said, "OK." Sure enough, Mr. Marshall came to the door and he said, "I can see you now. Well, what are you here for?" So, I start talking to him. We had a marvelous talk. We talked about John Deere tractor, we talk about hunting deer. We talked about fishing, we talked about baseball. We talked about the stress he has in prison, his family. Yeah. And I said -- I was talking a little bit even about meditation. He said, "That sounds really interesting." He said, "I think I might like to try that." Well, he and I walked out. When we walk out, sure enough, 20 guys, inmates, are standing right in front of the door. And they already have their names signed up on a piece of paper. And they have Mr. Marshall's name as being the employee sponsor. So, they go, "Mr. Marshall? Here's what we're going to do." He said, "Now, boys, just a minute." Said, "We've got to check this out. This isn't how it works." And so, long story and fast forward, had it all checked out, and we did -- they didn't have any money, but they said, you know, "We're going to start." So, I said I would raise some money and we would get this done. So, I kind of went around the different TM centers around in Colorado and kind of [moved?] some money for sponsors. But I made the inmates pay $50. So, they were making 25 cents a day. But I said, "You're going to have to invest in it, because if you're [giving to it -- given it?], you may not do it." "Well, we don't have that kind of money." "Well, you'll find it." Now, what I did find out was, for marijuana in the penitentiary, if someone had three joints of marijuana in a matchbox -- that's what they call it, a matchbox -- it was $75. And someone would smuggle that in, and it would risk them getting a felony, and they would -- but it was worth it to them, so they did it. So, I said, in my first introductory lecture -- there were 75 inmates in this closed -- there were no windows in this closed room, and they could smoke at the time, of course. And I walk in and, you know, all the whistling began and all the catcalls and all the, you know, those kinds of things. And as they were talking, I finally -- it was too much noise, and I said, "Just a second. You know, I came here to talk about meditation. And those of you who are not interested, you have two options. You can go out this door or you can go out this door." Then it got very quiet. Course, there were a few other kinds of ways we said that in prison lingo. And they liked it, they clapped, it got very quiet. You could hear a pin drop. And afterwards, I told them what TM was, and whoever wanted to start, here's the 10 rules. And they clapped, and then we started our class. So, I taught TM for four years in the Colorado State Penitentiary. And the community sponsored -- you know, they would sponsor an inmate. And so, I didn't make any money. It wasn't a money-making thing, but I traveled back and forth from my hometown, which was 50 miles away, when I was -- I was enrolled as a student to finish my bachelor's degree with the GI Bill. And then I moved 167 miles away to go to grad school, and I would commute on the weekends down to the penitentiary. And then, you know, like, Friday, I would go -- drive down to the penitentiary. I'd work till 9:00, I'd go and stay at my mother and father's house, 50 miles away. Then I'd come back that Saturday morning, spend the entire day there from 8:00 to 8:00. Go back Saturday night, come back to the penitentiary Sunday morning and work till noon and then drive back to grad school. And it was a joy, what I learned. All the things I learned while I was there, because I was not a guard. I was not part of the system. They took me under their wing. They told me how all the crimes happened. (laughs) They educated me. And I felt that that was a real intriguing place to be. They were teaching me. And I wasn't, like, taking them into my homes or, you know, they were going to come and stay with me when I got -- it wasn't that sort of thing. It was just, like, "Here's what I do. And then, if you do this, you maybe have a better chance with a clear mind to not return, because your thinking will be different." But I didn't tell them how to live their lives or to behave, because that doesn't work after they've done 20 years and stuff. So, it was definitely a group of the alpha dogs in the penitentiary that were the heavyweights. And the violence level started to be reduced by a lot, because at one point I had 50 out of 500 meditating. And when the guys would meditate during the day -- they had to be locked down three times a day so they could be counted to make sure that everyone's there. So, three times a day, they had to go back to the cell and lock down, and the guard would go by the cell and count every single one of them. Well, during the count, it was about 30 minutes. So, the guys decided to meditate during that 30 minutes. Well, traditionally, it's really loud, because the guys have a chance just to yell and scream, and there's nothing they could -- what are they going to do, put them in prison? (laughs) So -- and these guys would meditate, and they were the heavyweights. Pretty soon, they start telling everybody, "When we do count, you shut up." (laughs) So, it started getting real quiet in all the different cell blocks. So, the guards were going, "Wait a minute, something is really unusual. What's happening? Because there's a change in these guys." So, every day, I would come in and I'd be in my little sport coat, and I would -- they would call the -- Mr. Zobeck's meditation class in the psychology room. And the guys would come in and I'd say, "Hey, how you doing?" Blah-blah-blah. So, at one point, the captain -- one of the captains came to me and said, "Get in my office," in a real stern tone. You know, right in front of the inmates. And the inmates went, "Oooh!" You know, like, "Uh-oh!" SY: "He's in trouble!" DZ: Yeah, exactly, you know? So, I went in the office and I sat down. And there was another inmate by his side, and he was talking to me in a very stern voice and it was kind of puzzling in the beginning, of course. And he said, "Do you" -- he said, "Young man, do you know that it's a felony to bring cocaine in a state penitentiary?" I said, "Sounds good to me. That sounds about right. Yeah, I do. That sounds -- yeah." I, like -- and then he said, "Well, you could be doing time with the rest of these guys, just like the guys you're trying to help and -- if you don't watch your step." And I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." 11 Then it occurred to me, I said, "You're talking about me bringing in cocaine? Oh." I said, "Captain, let me just give you a quick bio. I've never had a cigarette in my life. I don't drink. I've never had a cup of coffee. If you want to get your sniff dog and take him in my vehicle right now, I'll sign release papers. You could do a strip search, I'll give you a urine sample, a blood sample, whatever you would like to do. And, you know, we could do that in front of the inmates. I'll do whatever -- just so the evidence is clear. And if you don't find anything, I'll teach you meditation, because you're really stressed out. But good things are happening. (laughter) You know, when violence level goes down, that's actually a good thing." So, after that, when the -- when we were there for about a year, the in-- SY: Wait, wait, but so how did that resolve? That whole cocaine thing, how did that rumor start? DZ: He just -- it started because, you know, they -- the only reason that they would see that there were inmates being calm was when there were some drugs in the facility. SY: Of course, cocaine would not be a drug that would calm them down. (laughs) DZ: Well, but you know what? When they're maniacal -- if they're addicts, that would be a nice little fix. And there were several addicts in there. So, when they're coked up, they're a little bit different than when they're -- yeah. SY: So, he thought you were bringing in drugs because -- DZ: Yes, because I -- SY: -- the change in behavior was so dramatic. DZ: Yeah, and I was always happy. And that -- so, he knew that I had to be coked up, on coke, because I was always happy. And so, anyway -- but I saw a connection. The inmate that was sitting next to him was a convicted sex offender. I didn't know that at the time. And I didn't know the social aspects of the prison and sex offenders. What happened was, he came to learn TM. And I said, "Yeah, you could learn." But the inmates in the class told him, "Uh-uh. You're not coming with us, because if you sit with us, then that means we approve of who you are, and that ain't happening." So, I didn't realize that dynamic had transpired. And so, he was trying to upset the applecart and get this kicked out totally by putting this "I use cocaine" thing on me. And they would kick me out, and there goes the program and he'd get some revenge. SY: Right. DZ: So, I figured that out later on, and that aspect came to me. But, at any rate -- and then, after that, many guards saw what was happening, and they would come to me individually, like, privately and look around to see if there was anybody looking at us talking and say, "Here's my number. Call me at home." And I would call them at home, and said, "I want to start." So, I would drive to their homes, talk to them, their wives, and their kids and teach them. And then they said, "What we want is privacy, that you don't tell anyone, because if the guards -- other guards see us, then we're associating with an inmate program. If inmates see us, then, you know, we're -- it's a pretty negative situation." And so, at any rate -- and after -- of course, after four years -- and I was in grad school, then I was married, and I just couldn't continue. It was too long a deal. So, we had a very positive parting. But it was a wonderful experience, and it worked. The only thing I regret is I didn't keep real good -- great tabs on all the changes that occurred. I wasn't into the research end of it, and I regret that but -- 12 SY: Yeah. Any -- do you have any anecdotes of, like, transformations that happened with individual -- did you keep in touch with any of the inmates or -- DZ: They all kept in touch with me. I still have -- at one point, one of the most positive things, I think, is that -- well, I had one of the guys that was in there -- and he finished 20 years. He was in there for murder. And that's not good, and I'm not condoning any crime that any of these guys -- they're all wrong and they all -- SY: Yeah, of course. DZ: -- earned -- SY: Yeah. DZ: -- and earned the -- SY: Yeah, yeah. DZ: -- earned their time in prison. He got out and he spent one whole year in a monastery, on his parole. And the Jesuit brothers in Granby, Colorado, in a monastery, took him in, and he was in silence for a whole year. And he really enjoyed that, and it really made a huge difference. I keep in touch with him. Another one of the inmates who graduated, I -- got out and then finished the course. Became, like, an agent for a few professional athletes, some professional musicians. There's one right now who -- well, I'll tell you a personal connection, it was interesting. One of the guys got out, and he was from the city -- he grew up in the city in Colorado that I went to grad school in. It was Greeley, Colorado, at the University of Northern Colorado. And he said, "I understand" -- he said, "You said you're going to go to grad school in Greeley." I said, "Yeah." He said, "Could you look up my dad?" "Sure." So, he gave me the address, didn't tell me any story about his dad or anything. Didn't tell me anything about his father. I knock on the door, Mr. Smith comes to the door. I introduce myself, I said, "Hi, my name is Dave Zobeck, I teach meditation at the prison, and I met your son, Ted in the prison." And so, he starts cursing his son. "Ah," you know, he goes, "he's the cause of my divorce, because of his drugs and all that stuff. I hope he rots in hell," you know? And, OK, well, I said, "Well, I didn't know that part of it." I said, "So, like, you know, step away from the shotgun. I'm going to go back to my car," you know? Then he goes -- then he says, "Well," he said, "that's not your fault." Said, "Well, come on in." And fast forward, we became good friends. And he was an older guy, he just needed somebody to talk to. When I got back to the prison, I got in touch with Mr. Ted Smith and I said, "You got to tell me the whole story next time. You didn't tell me that." He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, put your father on your visiting list, and I want him to come and talk to you. And I'm going to try to convince him to -- and he wants to talk to you. And you've got to drop that, you just have to talk to him." And so, anyway, they did. So, after I finished the four years -- and so, that went really well. But Mr. Smith would come and visit me a lot. I mean, sometimes uninvited. And I needed to study and he would just knock on the door and he would sit down, and he'd want to tell me his life story. And so -- and, you know, I accommodated most of the time, and sometimes I just couldn't do it. But I hadn't seen him for about two weeks. And in the meantime, I got a job at the Sheriff's Department in Greeley, Colorado. The Weld County Sheriff's Department. And I was a counselor in the jail, running this rehab program. I was sitting in my office, the phone rings. And this is when I was finished teaching TM in the prison. The phone rings, and it's Ted, the inmate who introduced me to his father. And we start talking. "How you doing?" "Good, I have a job, everything's going well." He said, "But my dad died." And I hadn't seen him in two 13 weeks. He said, "It was just sudden. He died and we're having the funeral. Would you and your wife come to the funeral?" I said, "Of course we will," you know? And he said, "I just need some support [there?]. I don't have any family." "Of course." So, you know, my wife and I went to the funeral, and then we had him over for dinner, because he wasn't any threat to us. I mean, he wasn't, like, you know. So, anyway, we had him to dinner. So, during dinner, he said, "My father really liked you, and he really appreciated you did all that work for free." He said, "He wanted you to have the house." I said, "Now, wait a minute. Time out. Have the house? I'm not going to have the house." He goes, "Well, we'll make it good for you," because he said, "I shouldn't have the house," because his drug guys would move in and he would just -- and it's a mess for him, and he was about 100 miles away. And he said, "I'd just rather have the money and move on. I'm ready to move on." So, he gave us, like -- it was just incredibly inexpensive. So, he said, "For your hard work in the prison for four years, this is your reward." So, we -- I've got the G.I. Bill, bought this house, and it was our first little house. And, you know, we raised our first little girl in it for a few years, and then we moved to another one and we used that as a rental house. But that was probably the most powerful anecdote that -- but some of the guys were -- I've lost track. You know, several of them, I know, had died. And, you know, it's not unusual that someone who's been in prison awhile has the stress factor along with them. But I didn't see, you know -- and some (inaudible) [00:45:22] I'm sure reoffended. I didn't keep that close track. But it was a marvelous experience. And, yeah, it introduced me to the field that I stayed in, the criminal justice field. I got interested in that. SY: OK, so -- DZ: I liked the adrenalin flow. SY: -- what was your master's in? DZ: My master's was in psychology, agency counseling. So, I did a lot of rehab work in the jails after that and ran a halfway house and that sort of thing, so -- and as a probation officer, when I was a probation officer, I did a lot of one-on-one kind of therapeutic kinds of things, and interventions in the community and that sort of thing. So, I really -- growing up in the neighborhood where I was, working in the penitentiary, and then getting that exposure and then applying that life experience to a career was a real blessing, you know? So, yeah, and I didn't teach TM when I was a probation officer, because that was a conflict of interest. I just recently started teaching since I've been here at Norwich. SY: So, I have a couple questions. DZ: OK. SY: First of all, do you know about Vermont's whole restorative justice model? DZ: Yes. SY: Yeah. DZ: Yes. SY: I was on a reparative board for awhile. It's pretty amazing. DZ: Yeah. I was certified as a trainer for restorative justice. SY: Oh, you were? DZ: Yes. SY: Yeah. 14 DZ: And Vermont had a prison here, and years ago, they had a TM program in the prison. And a woman by the name of Susan Gore, of Gore-Tex, who's from Vermont, had this project going and -- about the same time I was doing my project in Colorado. SY: Interesting. DZ: Yeah. SY: Doesn't exist anymore, does it? DZ: It doesn't what? SY: It doesn't exist anymore, does it? DZ: No. No, no. No. SY: So, that was one question I had to ask. And then, I'm just thinking about all these stories, and I'm thinking that you're in this unique position, right, where you can bridge these two worlds, right? So, I would imagine that you're different than most people teaching TM, certainly in the '70s, right? DZ: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. SY: And, you know, you're this guy who was in the service, right? So, you can, like, walk, you can be, like, respected for having this particular type of authority, right? You can tell them to take it or leave it -- DZ: Right, right, right. SY: -- in whatever crude terms you need to. DZ: Right, right, right. SY: Right? And have that sort of, like, gravitas, right? And then you're also able to teach TM. So, I -- is that something you've thought about? Like, how you sort of intersect these worlds? DZ: No, I just -- you know, I taught TM because that was the most wonderful opportunity I had at the present, and I got really into it. And then, when I came back to the states, what I was going to do was get my degree and possibly go back to Europe. And then, this project came along. And then, of course, in grad school I met my wife. And, you know, life happened in that regard. So, the next page in the next chapter was, you know, I have an opportunity to actually work in this field. And I had this previous kind of experience prior to that, and it wasn't for pay. But it was really on the front line, and the prison experience was real. I mean, there was a guy who was -- there was a lot of things that happened in the penitentiary, you know? Like murders and that sort of thing, and just being exposed to that. And I liked the adrenaline rush. I liked that there was an excitement and you had to be on your toes all the time. You had to be alert, and how to handle that, knowing that in a penitentiary, you're outnumbered if you're a guard. So, your best weapon is your mouth, and you could either get in trouble with it or you can calm people down. Because the inmates -- you live at the mercy of the inmates when there's 500 inmates. There's -- they don't walk around -- the guards don't walk around the penitentiary with guns for good reason, because somebody's going to take it away. So, it was kind of an idea of learning how -- it was -- it reminded me of a -- and I've never done this, but it was kind of like maybe being in the jungle, learning how to pet the lions, and still have all your fingers. These guys could kill me anytime. I mean, they were all -- and there was 20 of them. And out of the 20, 12 of them had been convicted of murder. And, you know, they weren't rehabilitated. But I have to give this one little story. So, what I do is I'd -- the first day with everyone that is taught, they learn with a teacher, one-on-one. They get the instruction. So, they receive a mantra, they receive the technique 15 how to use it properly, and then they meditate. They get it the first day, so you don't have to be a black belt in TM. You get -- you learn it right away. It's so simple, 10-year-olds learn. So, it's an effortless technique, which makes it really effective. You know, and it's certainly not a concentration technique or a contemplation technique and -- concentration takes a lot of effort and focus and mental activity, so it usually stays on a surface level. And contemplation is kind of -- you ask your mind to imagine a situation that -- you work yourself to get images or a value, like kindness or whatever it is, and imagine yourself in, for example, Costa Rica when you're actually in Vermont. But this is supposed to give you this relaxed feeling. Or imagine yourself, you know, the kindest person you can ever be. But it's thinking, and as long as you're thinking, you're on a surface level. So, TM is a little different than either one of those. It takes advantage of what's called the natural tendency of the mind. It sounds like a lot of woo-woo, but what it means is that if, you know, you and I are talking -- and I don't know what your favorite music is. What is your favorite music, type of music? SY: It's usually folk music of some variety. DZ: OK, so as you and I are talking, if one of your favorite tunes floats through the door, where would you imagine your attention might -- [yeah?]. SY: Sure, yeah. DZ: To the music. So, it's more charming. It's something more charming. So, what happens is that, in TM, when we -- when I teach a person to meditate, the natural tendency of the mind is to go to quieter levels of the mind where there -- it is more charming. There's more quietness, more silence. Now, how do you get there? So, the first day, I teach you a mantra, which is a word that has no meaning. Some mantras do mean -- there's thousands of mantras all over the world. Probably millions, I don't know. But the mantras that are used by TM are sound that has no meaning whatsoever. And sounds have certain effects on your nervous system. So, it's a soothing sound and I choose that for each person. Some people could have the same mantra, doesn't matter. But the technique, how to use it properly, is the other half of that knowledge. So, I teach that the first day. And by this soothing sound, and when it's used correctly, that directs the tension to finer levels of thinking and quieter levels of the mind, to a point where, you know, there is nothing but silence. And silence is different than quietness. Silence is -- in silence, there's no thought. So, the idea of Transcendental Meditation -- meditation being some form of thinking or prayer, and transcending going beyond that. So, you go beyond the level of thought to where there's silence. And that part is in every nervous system of every human being. So, transcending is that experience of silence. And so, 600 studies later -- show that, you know, the prefrontal cortex and all areas of the brain are affected in a real positive way. So, it creates a situation where there's -- it's called restful alertness. So, the restfulness is that -- it's a mental technique, but there's deep physical relaxation. So, the heart rate is reduced, the breath rate, the pulse rate. Even cortisol, which is a chemical in the body that measures stress is reduced almost to nothing. So, the physical part is there. But on the mental part, there's some awareness. So, it's not sleep, it's not dreaming, it's not being awake, it's not -- it's neither of those states of consciousness, but it's this pure awareness. So, when someone experiences this several times during a 20 minute period of meditation, which is the length of time that people meditate twice daily -- that that prefrontal cortex and all areas of the brain are affected positively, and there is some coherence in the brain. So, there is awareness. 16 There's alertness. And so, when you experience that and you finish, then you're refreshed. So, it reaches the level that's deeper than that of sleep. But it's not sleep, because sleep is measurable and your brain behaves a certain way during sleep. And the EEG that measures -- that does this research doesn't lie, doesn't make anything up. It says, hey, this is a different state of consciousness. So, we can tell when a person's sleeping by the function of the brainwaves. Then, when they begin to dream, there's some rapid eye movement, and you can tell there's a different function. I'm not being incredibly scientific, just -- right, just general. And when we're awake, like right now, there's a different -- so, scientists in another room looking at this screen could say that Sarah and Dave are sleeping, dreaming, and awake. And then, when we meditate, they're saying something different is happening. So, it's a fourth state of consciousness. So, being able to actually teach that to someone, knowing that it goes to what is a natural place in their own being, in their own mind and their own physiology, which is silent, and they get these deep results -- and when they come out and they're more alert and more relaxed, they're probably going to have better behavior. They're probably going to be more efficient in their activity. They're probably going to be more effective. So, when the violence level went down in the prison, it wasn't because Dave Zobeck said, "Be good." It was because we have 50 out of 500, and they're having more brain coherence, because every decision comes from the brain. It just made common sense to me that I didn't have to spew anything. I didn't have to tell them, "Eat -- be a vegetarian, think of Maharishi all day long. Quit your religion." Because that was convincing to me. I was Catholic, I didn't have to abandon my religion. I didn't have to become a vegetarian, because I'm not. I didn't have to walk around with a picture of Maharishi on me and think Maharishi thoughts, which -- and I met him. He's a marvelous human being. A marvelous human being. Incredible. I mean, he's a Hindu monk and I'm not. You know, I'm okay with that and it's not a big deal. So, to bring that knowledge into this field, knowing that in the field of corrections, with inmates and employees that work in that field, that -- high stress rates -- that police officers and people in law enforcement, corrections, they don't live to normal life expectancy because of stress. Not because of the bad guy. And then military, same thing. I mean, when -- sadly enough, when we have 13 -- minimum of 13 suicides per day, I find that -- I'm extremely patriotic, and these are our men and women, and these are people's -- course, now they're children -- that I have been with, and even if they're not -- that I don't know them, they're related and I understand that stress. I've never been in combat, so I don't understand that stress. But I tire of seeing our beautiful flag folded into a triangle and presented to a grieving family because the effects of their duty drove them to that place that they thought was better than living. And what am I going to do about it? I mean, you can only cry for so long. I want to do something about it. So, I think that this is a tool that may have an effect on that. And if someone can do that -- and I taught on this campus, I've taught a number of veterans that were -- have done a number of tours in different wars. And the results are phenomenal. And it is such a privilege for me to do that, it's such an honor for me to do that, to share that. So, to be here at Norwich is just -- this is -- SY: So, yeah, so how did you get -- DZ: -- ideal. SY: -- pulled back into this work? 17 DZ: Well, I retired from my work early, and I put in 28 years in the field. But I decided that I wanted to teach TM again. In order to do that, I had to do a recertification course, and I went to this recertification course and I met this guy there. He said, "I work for the David Lynch Foundation and I'd like you to work for me." I had no idea what that was. I said, "Oh, okay, that sounds good." And, you know, no big deal. And so, he contacted me later on and said, "You have a chance to go to Norwich and teach TM." And I thought that was England. I was all excited. I thought, cool, we're going to England. Break out -- "Hello." Break out the passport. (laughter) So, I came here, and the first day that I came -- it was kind of, like, an incredibly snowy day like today. I went to a meeting in the Plumley Armory, and I walked into the Nicholson Room and there were nine vets sitting around this table. And I had my little coat and tie on, of course, which is kind of the uniform of the day for TM teachers. That's what -- Maharishi would like people to look professional, so I did. And I had Peg Meyer and Shelby [Gile?] and the veterans, and they started introducing themselves around the table. And this man said his name, and he said that he had done some tours and gone through some troubled times. And so, I looked him in the eye across the table and I said, "Welcome home, brother." And he started to cry. And I got up and I went around the table. And he stood up and I gave him a big hug, and he was just crying. And I just said, "Welcome home." And he sat down, and we continued. And the woman next to me whispered -- she said, "Did you know him?" I said, "I've never seen him before in my life." And so, then we had a chance -- after that meeting, we told them about TM, and they were -- they could start. They didn't have to pay anything. Going to make an exception, because we had an agreement between our agency and Norwich. And then, I went and talked to the student body. I mean, there were about 200 [core or Corps?] members, and we got a group and we started the first study. I wasn't the researcher, but the researchers did -- took some measures before and after. And then, the results were great. Doctor -- or President Schneider got up in front of the students that were there and he said, you know, "Ladies and gentlemen, you have the opportunity to learn this." He said, "It's everything that they say it is. There's no obligation, and you can volunteer if you like. If you don't, that's okay." He said, "But I've checked it out. I've looked at the research," and he said, "that's the only thing that convinced me." He said, "Then I started it, and since I've been doing it, it's wonderful." You know? Not exactly his word, but that he started -- SY: So, the TM with people returning with PTS makes a lot of sense to me. And the TM with platoons beforehand also makes sense, but can? -- I feel like there's this elemental contradiction, right, which is no matter how resilient people are, in war they're going to be forced to see and do things that damage the psyche, right? DZ: Sure, sure. SY: So, I guess, how do you think about that? And how can -- do you believe that TM can, to some degree, change the nature of conflicts? DZ: Well, a couple of things. You know, it only works if you do it. And if a person's in a conflict -- I mean, I understand from a practical sense they're not going to call time out and go, "I got to meditate." But there are going to be some down times. There's going to be conflict that's going to cause that damage no matter what. If you do TM, you don't -- yeah, do TM. What do you do about it when you have it? And this is something that I like in this regard, because they could do it by themselves, and it's an extra tool. If they want to talk to a psychologist, that's great. If they want to take some medication, that's 18 great. Whatever. They can do this by themselves. The veterans that I taught said, "I wish I would have had this when I was in combat, because there were times when I was just losing my mind and I didn't know what to do. And I had time on my hands. I wish I could've sat down and done this." So, in a practical sense, we're giving them tools to use when they can -- if they're in a conflict or if they're not actively doing anything, they have some downtime, to relieve that stress, to maybe -- we don't have any data yet that says TM prevents PTS. I would never say that. Maybe lessen the effects, or even when they get back they have a tool immediately to use. Because what we know is that alcohol, drugs, you know, the different behaviors that break out -- violence, you know, it's fight or flight kind of time when someone has post-traumatic stress. They -- you lash out or they'll walk away from things, and they're not the same person when they return, because what's happened is the brain is damaged. So, the hope is that we can give them this tool to maybe get them strong before they get into the conflict. And if they're kind of doing this workout for the brain, being more flexible to stress that's incoming, they won't react as badly or as poorly as they did if they didn't have the tool. So, what we're doing is -- it's kind of like that analogy of, you know, there's this crack team that rescues people jumping in the river, and they're going down the tubes. And they can pull out every single guy in the river, and every single woman in the river. They can -- they're really good at it. Then someone gets the wise idea and says, "Why don't we catch them where they're jumping in? You know, we can prevent something." So, this is a preventative program. So, we get the vets that have -- coming back, they're on campus. We also get those who are going to be commissioned and go into the service. And I have, you know, over -- probably about 100, and I get text messages from several of them that say, "I meditated before I flew today. I was clear as a bell." Or, "I finished Army Ranger training, and if not -- but for TM, I wouldn't have made it." And so, I see that there's some results. And, you know, I'm not a meditation cop. I don't make them do it. I give them the tool, and that's what the president said. We're going to give them a tool that is proven and see if that makes the difference. SY: No, that's very interesting. So, OK, so Norwich is founded on this idea of the citizen soldier, right? DZ: Mm-hmm. SY: And I think that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, right? But part of it that I find compelling is the idea that you're creating soldiers who are thinkers, right? Who are -- they follow orders, but they also to some degree come to their own conclusions, right? So, I'm wondering if you feel like TM can create better, more ethical warriors, if it has a moral effect, perhaps, in some way? DZ: Well, I mean, if -- the idea that -- that's a good question. The idea is that -- I think a person's morals don't necessarily come from meditation. But I think when a person has a clearer mind, they make less mistakes, and they're probably apt to err on the positive. So, you know, wouldn't it be nice if we were talking about, ideally, a situation where one of these young men or women become a general and they're big decision makers, and it comes down to doing that -- [make?] a decision to -- is this war -- is it -- are there other alternatives? That clear mind would make the very best decision that that person could possibly make to benefit the most people around them. Of course, that's the hope of every time, so -- but there's no -- I think when people begin to meditate, the hope is -- I had one of my -- so, one of the guys who's a soldier now, he said, "I want you to teach all 19 of my platoon, because we're going to be more in touch with each other, and we're going to be more effective." And, you know, the hope is someday there will not be any wars. How -- you're talking about ethical with regard to during a war, ethical with regard to preventing war, or in what regard are you thinking about? SY: All of the above. DZ: I see. SY: All of the above. I mean, so, yes, so ethical in terms of preventing a war, if it could be prevented. But also, I'm just thinking about -- you know, we've had some unfortunate situations in the past decade of -- you know, that are coming to light more and more, like soldiers -- you know, I mean, I think of Abu Ghraib. I think of other situations like that, and I wonder if a practice like this could help a soldier in a sort of context like that. Be, like, "Yeah, I'm not doing that." DZ: Right. SY: Or, "I'm going to blow the whistle on that." Or, "That doesn't" -- do you know what I'm saying? DZ: Yeah, yeah, OK. That's a good direction. One of the things that I would submit that -- I don't have evidence in every single case, but I would submit that those types of decisions are made from a stressed mind. And same thing with crime. I mean, look at the example in prison. When these guys are doing that, none of them -- they rarely if ever got written up for any violations. And it's not because those rules were not there at all, they didn't understand the rules. It was because their reasoning was influenced by the amount of stress that they had. So, I would guess that when -- the people who did that in Abu Ghraib, and it wasn't every single one of them -- made that decision. That's not a relaxed place. That's an incredibly stressed place. And I would guess that those decisions come from stressed minds. So, I think that what could happen -- if I had the magic wand, I would teach every one of those guys. And, you know, there would be a difference in the -- a physiological change. And again, it sounds very ideal. But break out the EEG machine. And that doesn't measure left-wing granola conspiracies. That measures how the human brain functions in each individual. And when done correctly, there is a positive effect. And I would say that would be where the influence would go. And I see the same thing with, you know, stressed cops, stressed whatever. When I was on the street as a probation officer and we'd chasing the bad guys, I'd come home and there'd be all sorts of stress, of course. But I would meditate, and then I wouldn't bring that stress into my house, you know? And I think that that's the hope. So, I think it's a tool that is -- needs to be looked at, because scientifically it's proven. So, I do think it would have an influence in that regard. Do I think it would have been perfect and no violation? I'm not saying that. I'm saying does it make a difference if they would do it? I think it would increase the chances of positive behavior by a long shot. That's my opinion, absolutely. And so, if you look at that and you look at the idea of where wars come from -- I mean, people making decisions to go to war -- I don't think that's a relaxed nervous system. SY: No, and people that -- DZ: On either side. SY: Right. When people feel like caged animals, they act like caged animals, right? DZ: They're going to lash out, I would guess. I mean, in some cases. And rare -- and bless the guy who doesn't or the woman who doesn't, but it's rare. But I think that -- you know, the same thing -- well, anyway, so that's my opinion on that one. 20 SY: So, one last question -- DZ: Sure. SY: -- because I know I'm getting tired, mostly because these fluorescent lights are awful. Do you have this (inaudible) [01:09:52] (laughs) DZ: They're terrible, aren't they? SY: They're just the worst. DZ: Bam. SY: Ah, thank you! DZ: See? SY: Feel much better. DZ: See, now we're relaxed. SY: Look at that. DZ: We're roaming out. SY: Look at that. DZ: Come on. SY: Things changed. DZ: I mean, come on, hello. SY: Woo! It was, like, my eyes -- DZ: (laughs) Bzzz! SY: -- were like dilating in and out. (laughter) And I was, like, am I here? What's going on? DZ: Who am I? What am I? SY: So yeah. So, actually, I was talking to Sarah Henrich before and I was like, "What do you want to ask Dave Zobeck? What do you want to know?" And she said, "What's your big picture vision?" You could – if you were running the show, you were, you know, I don't know, leader of the world, right? What would you do in terms of TM? DZ: Of the world or for Norwich? The world -- SY: Or of Norwich or -- DZ: Well, here's the deal. I think -- what I think I would do -- I mean, in the world sense at it boils down to Norwich as well. I think you need to get it in the education system. I think this needs to be a class that's offered for credit, that this is -- that you can do maybe some measurements before you get in the class, and at the end of the semester, after X amount of meditations, you can do that. And I think every class would begin with meditation and then follow with some knowledge about development of consciousness, changes in brains, that -- some real scientific kinds of things. And that should be a part of every person's curriculum. I think it belongs in the curriculum. I think this tool belongs with civilians, it belongs to Corps people, it belongs to administrators -- and I have taught a number of administrators here that swear by it. So, if it works, let's do it. So, we have to have this type of knowledge of other subject matters. And I've taught that. I've taught sociology and psychology and that sort of thing and it was -- it's marvelous. You have to have that. It's a good, good bit of information. But the knowledge of the self is so powerful and timeless. These books are outdated five years after I teach the subject matter. Development of consciousness and going within never is outdated as long as you're alive. And that is eternal knowledge. And that's the difference in my satisfaction of teaching TM and teaching these other subjects. I love teaching. When I teach someone how to go and experience and that -- to find this place in their own nervous system -- and then, when they're finished, they feel better and their affect is more positive 21 on other people, because it's good to be around people that are very positive. And they're going to be the decision makers of the future. It's way too common-sensical to do. It makes sense, and there's no -- I don't understand a reason not to. And so, that's what I think the ideal situation -- there are school systems in California, entire school systems that use it. They call it quiet time. They start their day -- the entire school, with the teachers -- they have a bell that rings over the PA system. They start their day with 10 minutes of meditation, they go about their business. At the end, at three o'clock when they're finished, the entire school system sits down, including the teachers. They do 10 minutes of meditation. No violence in the hall, no afterschool violence. They've saved San Francisco millions of dollars -- SY: Of course it's San Francisco. DZ: -- because of shootings and so on and so forth. And the kids are progressing for the first time through middle school, high school, and they're going on to college. The data is there. There's no -- there's nothing -- and they're still Protestants, they're still Jews, they're still Catholics, they're -- they haven't changed. They're still meat eaters. They're citizens that understand how they can contribute better as a citizen to their country, to their city, their community when they're using more of their full potential. This is the tool, and it's proven. And I think it -- you know, move the obstacles out of the way, get to what works. And the sooner we do that, I think we can see results all over the place. Even in cities where there are crime rates and there's X amount of people who are doing TM, there's a difference in the crime level. So, you know, I think it's a tool. So, I think, to answer, you know, that question is -- very directly is put it in the school system. Without a doubt, it should be taught like any other subject matter. The knowledge of self is as important as the knowledge of other topics. And so, I would recommend that. And I'm hoping, eventually down the road at Norwich, it does get in the curriculum somehow, some way, you know? SY: Actually, when I was teaching middle school, we had something -- it wasn't TM, but it was sort of a mindfulness chunk of the week. DZ: Yeah. SY: It was -- it didn't quite work, I think because it was, like, a group activity, right? It wasn't something that, like -- I think with middle school girls in particular -- it was an all-girls school -- they need to close their eyes to, like, step out of the social context in order to be able to access themselves. But when there were -- it was more sort of, like, movement based and they could still see each other, they, like, weren't able to get rid of their self-consciousness. DZ: And to go inside. SY: And to go inside, yeah. DZ: Well, you know, every technique has their own benefits, and I'm not going to knock that. But this is a -- again, if you're going to anyone -- any institution's going to invest money, go to something that's proven. I mean, 600 studies later, and no one's fighting that they're bad studies. There's not one. SY: Do you think that if you hadn't -- if that Marine hadn't come and spoken at that -- at your Air Force base that you would have discovered TM? Or do you think your life would have taken another trajectory? DZ: I think probably -- I think people are on a path to probably discover what they discover. He was just the -- he was the person who -- like, I would -- with some others that just was 22 -- delivered the package that day that I had asked for in some way, shape, or form. I was always looking -- SY: And you were ready for it. DZ: Yeah, I -- and in kind of, like, that Chinese thing when the student is ready, the teacher appears. SY: Right, right, right, you're -- DZ: And I think I was -- we were doing other kinds of things and that came along, and that was just -- that was another thing. But it was the coup de grace. I mean, it made my exercise better, you know, my sleep better and my studies better. So, I saw the benefit immediately, and there's no reason to stop, so I haven't. And so far, there's some tremendous results here at Norwich, and the students like it. And, you know, there's some support. And it'll go as long as it's supposed to, you know? So -- SY: It also seems like, at Norwich, it's also to some degree changed the culture between the cadre and the rooks, right? And I know that people talked about less yelling and, like, a sort of, like, different relationship between -- a kinder relationship, potentially. DZ: Well, the thing is, the first two years when we had the group study that was done at Alumni Hall, we had one platoon that was, you know, taught, and their cadre. And they would meditate together for the first two years. Different platoons, of course. And then we had the control group that didn't learn and then finally learned in the spring when they got recognized. So, we had that -- so, in that specific platoon, they didn't need to yell because these men and women, young men and women, were alert enough the first time around. And they, you know, were less stressed, and they could respond right away. So then, the cadre didn't have to yell, because they got it right the first time. And I know the cadre personally, and they yelled. I mean, it's part of the culture. But it was really good. Now the group is different, because it's opened up to the general population. So, some of the rooks are meditating and they're meditating in the room, but their cadre don't and their other roommate doesn't. Or it's a smattering of -- you know, I taught 116 people last semester, and not all of them were rooks. So, there's still the culture of yelling and screaming, of course. But I think, you know, we've opened it up to the public this time around. But in that regard, when you have everybody with a clearer mind and you have a group of people with a clear mind -- in fact, they sit down and get a clear mind before they start their day and go forward. TM is a preparation for activity. With a clear mind, your activity's going to be more efficient. It's real simple. So, that's how it -- work, and I think Norwich is on the cutting edge of all of this, because they're the first academy to move forward with all this. SY: It's pretty exciting. DZ: It is. I think it's great. SY: It really is. DZ: Yeah. SY: So, OK, any last thoughts? DZ: No, I think it's good. SY: I still want to know why you joined the Air Force. DZ: Oh, well, you know, I mean, my two brothers, older brothers, were in the Air Force. We grew up in Colorado. The Air Force Academy is there. We were always fans of the football team, and we had visited the academy. We were all Air Force guys. And they did it, and I just followed suit. And, you know, it was during the war and I just thought, 23 you know, was a good time to serve. And I joined and -- certainly didn't go to Vietnam. I was a Vietnam era veteran, but I just thought it was a good thing to do. I liked it, and I didn't make a career out of it. I had -- opportunity to go to officer's school, and thought I could progress faster doing studies on my own. And, in fact, that was the case. But the Air Force changed my life. I mean, it got me out of the small town, and I saw the world. And when I lived in Europe, I visited all sorts of different countries, and visited my family in Yugoslavia. I would never have done that without the Air Force. So, I am deeply grateful for that experience. It was -- it's a life -- it was a life-changing situation. Became a TM teacher, taught -- you know, learned another language. So, very, very grateful, the opportunity that was presented, and then got my education -- I mean, finished my education when I got back with the GI Bill and bought a house. And there's so many things. So, it fit, you know? And I really didn't have the brains to figure that out, what I was going to do when I got in. I just said, hey, I'm going to do this and see what happens. SY: You were, what, 18? DZ: I was 20. SY: Twenty. DZ: Yeah, yeah, so -- SY: Yeah. DZ: -- but it was beautiful, I -- so, it was good situation. Very grateful. SY: And you liked the physical challenge, too, right? DZ: I liked it. And the Air Force isn't, certainly, as physically -- challenge as, like, the Marine Corps or the Army. And my Marine friends and my Army soldier friends all agree. SY: I heard (laughter) the joke the other day that -- of the Chair Force. DZ: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. SY: That was the joke that I heard, yeah. (laughs) DZ: But, you know, I take it in all good humor. SY: Yeah. DZ: And I admire them and am very grateful for all their service as well. So, it just -- we're -- I like to be part of the team. And being part of Norwich team and being accepted here and being part of the culture is really good. But, you know, in the beginning, it was very much, you know, weird and strange and odd, which I can understand. I understand that. But once we start looking at the science and the practical application and who I was and -- I wasn't into some of the strange things that are stereotypically associated -- SY: Well, again, you're this bridge. DZ: Yeah, yeah. SY: You're this, like -- DZ: Yeah. SY: -- amalgam that works, right? (laughter) Bringing meditation into these, like, more sort of, like, macho worlds -- DZ: Yeah, yeah. SY: -- like a prison or like the military or -- DZ: And, you know, what I find is that, you know, these young men and women -- Norwich -- the students here are just -- they absolutely amaze me. I mean, at the end of the sentence, they call me sir as opposed to other things that I was called when I worked in the criminal justice system, the combinations of family and different kinds of things were just very 24 creative. (laughter) But they are so motivated, and to add this tool to their -- already their intensity is really nice, because it's like a tune-up twice a day. So, it's going to make them even more effective. So, I say, as a decision-maker, when you become an officer, if that were my son or daughter, I would hope to goodness that you would have a clear mind when you're making decisions when lives are at stake. And clear minds make less mistakes. And your troops -- and you may not even have to go to war. You could be that formidable, that we don't want you as an opponent. We can -- let's have this chat. And so, who knows down the road? But we'll see. Greater minds than mind will make those decisions. But my biggest -- my hope is that they can get it in the curriculum and get it going and have somebody do that. And there's a few young people here who are interested in becoming teachers, and that would be really magnificent. There's a staff member who's interested in becoming a teacher. I would like that. It would be organic in nature, and then I could go onto whatever else I'm supposed to do and -- (laughter) SY: Right, whatever happens to be next. DZ: That's right. SY: Right? DZ: That's right. SY: And -- END OF AUDIO FILE

Transcript of an oral history interview with Mrs. Carol Todd, conducted by Sarah Yahm at the interviewee's home in Roxbury, Vermont, on 12 May 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Carol Todd was the wife of Norwich University president, W. Russell Todd, and the founder of the Norwich University Center for Volunteer Management. Included in the interview are reminiscences of Mrs. Todd's early life and education as well as her experiences at Norwich University. ; Mrs. Carol Todd, Oral History Interview May 12, 2015 At interviewee's home Interviewed by Sarah Yahm Transcribed by C.T. Haywood, NU '12 May 20, 2015 SARAH YAHM: You know what hold on I haven't turned this on yet and we're talking about interesting stuff that might be good to have on tape. But what were you saying about "should?" CAROL TODD: Well I, when General Todd was a young officer and we were first living at Fort Knox I learned a good deal about what I came to feel was my responsibility or at least what I should do for those wives who are around me, who might need me, who were just like I was with their mother wasn't there, their family was far way. And in those days when you were in Kentucky and your folks lived in New England it was a long way away. There was none of the technology that we enjoy now. Now I never was very good at this but I tried my best and I eventually did the work not directly for these young people but through an organization called Army Community Services, which was a social work organization, which now has become very strong and has professional people that do it. But when it started it was folks like myself who saw the need to be available. And we did what people's family would do for people who are in need or really need, kept an eye on folks is what happened. We all lived on post in the 1950s almost everyone lived on post in government quarters, government apartments. And we were neighbors. We were friends. We knew each other. We did things. We went for walks with the babies in a baby carriage. It's a different world and I understand that but I don't know how we got on the subject but it's…. SY: Well it's interesting because JoAnn Kelley who I interviewed talks about… CT: Oh yes! Interesting yeah… SY: Yeah about um when they were in Germany I guess you know Mike Kelley was away for a couple days for some reason. CT: Sure. SY: …for some reason she had already lost most of her vision and she talks about the incredible support of the women living on post with her enabling her to be able to do what she needed to do, right? Her kid got hurt and needed to go to the hospital and the degree to which the other, the mothers just dropped everything and took care of her kids and got her to the hospital and got her kid x-rays. And she felt that very powerfully in Germany. CT: Yeah and isn't it wonderful that she was the recipient of that kind of attention, because it must have been pretty tough to be alone. I think the whole ethos of this type of 2 community has changed in this whole country. It isn't just the military that it's changed in but and it isn't just the Army. I think the whole, but, for instance in those early days wives did not work. Ha! Heavens no! I knew of one of my friends who had a job who worked for a while. And I had come from a pla--from a situation where I had been working full time and could have probably managed to continue doing personnel work which is what I was doing. But I thought, "Huh," but nobody does that, you know, that isn't what we do here, you know. SY: Did you miss it? Because you, I mean you were you know you'd had a very good education, you were trained, you were? CT: I really didn't miss it at all. I really didn't. It was, we had such a good time. It was really fun. It was really fun for a while and one of the couples to whom we were close then, they lived around the corner and down the street a little bit, we are still close to. They live in Saco, Maine and the name is Nutting, Jane and Wally Nutting, and we still talk a lot and send birthday cards and visit once or twice a year. Unfortunately they both have some health issues, well don't we all at this age if you come right down to it. And so we don't see them as often as we'd like. But there was some very, very strong bonds. We took care of each other's children, we took care of each other. It was, it was easy and it's what people did and it made it easier to do I think than perhaps a different situation. And we were poor. You've got to remember in those days there was no extra cash. Everybody was counting out to see how much money they have left for the last week in the month and… SY: And were some--were you paying for your housing or was your housing free? CT: No we were paying for it. Because there were all kinds of arrangements but everybody paid for it in one way or another. Either they deducted it from your salary if you lived in certain kinds of housing. We lived in what was considered contract apartments and I think we paid $65.00 a month which seems like, it seemed like a lot then. It was for us then. And everybody and nobody, everybody, all the women were wearing their clothes from their trousseau you know because that's, there was no running out and buying new outfits and stuff like that. Yeah. SY: So let me actually, let me officially start this interview because I need to get us on tape. CT: Please do. SY: So I'm here interviewing--though I'll transcribe that and use that it's super interesting. So I'm here interviewing Carol Todd. Its May 12, we're at her house in Northfield. Is this technically still in Northfield? CT: As a matter of fact the house is in Roxbury though the garage is in Northfield. SY: [laughs]3 CT: Winch Hill Road is, you know the dividing line goes right through our garage as a matter of fact. We can show it to you. It's painted on the floor the garage. SY: That's hilarious, yeah. It's like the Derby Line Opera House and Library. CT: Oh yes, right, right [laughs]. It's true. SY: So okay let's actually, let's start from the beginning because oral history it's a story of a life. So I guess where did you grow up? Where were you born? CT: I born in Beverly, Massachusetts which is just north of Boston - 28 miles we used to say - in 1928. I can remember, we've got a picture somewhere in our files of the funny old car that my father had to, came home from the hospital, a funny sort of thing, an open sort of sedan thing. My parents were older parents which made my birth very exciting because my mother was 37 or 8 by the time I was born and that was considered geriatric practically. She never had the first labor pain. She didn't have the baby and didn't have the baby when it was due. So finally the doc went, "Hmmm better do something about this," and it was determined well before I was born that I was no doubtful a boy. There was no question about it. I had such a slow heartbeat which I still do. But no I wasn't a boy was I? And he was to have been named for my father, it would have been William Henry. So when I was a girl, some of the doctor or one of the nurses said, "Well, what are you going to name her?" and she said, "Well I guess I'll have to name her Wilhelmina Henrietta" which caused everyone in the delivery room to have a good laugh. But instead I was named for my grandfather's mother who had died giving birth to him in 18--what is it? '34 I think, yeah. I get the numbers kind of mixed up. But no he was born in '54, 1854. And anyway, but I was named for her my name being Caroline but I've been called Carol ever since. Because at the time in the thirties Carole Lombard was very, very famous and very fancy. So lots of people who were named a word like Caroline would be named, called Carol and that's, I still use Caroline for my legal name but other than that. And then I grew up in Beverly, small town, 20,000 people more or less. Went to the public school there. Could walk to school, could walk home for lunch, back for the afternoon, back home in the afternoon, play outside in the in our yard or in the yard next door. Go sliding on down the street on the little hill in somebody else's backyard. I had ah [cough] (pardon me), I had friends that I knew in kindergarten that I graduated from high school with and one of them I still play Words with Friends to this day with. One of these girls is still my friend. It's really fun. Everybody went to a different church and I thought, was only thinking about that this morning. My sister and I and one other, Eleanor, went to the Washington Street Congregational Church which is around the street from us. But my friend Pauline went to the Baptist church which was up the corner, and Elizabeth Ann went to the Episcopal church and then another friend went to the Dane Street Congregational Church and nobody thought this was odd. I mean this is how it was. People were all mixed together I think in the public school system which was a really good thing. I can remember in the sixth grade how thrilled I was when a new student came whose name was Emilio Zarzanello. So my last name being Wyeth I was no longer the end of the alphabet when we lined up by names. So I loved Emilio Zarzanello.4 I thought that was grand. Went to all the way through the public school there, went to junior high. It was a building called Briscoe which still stands in the center of town which is the same school that my grandfather had gone to and it had been condemned during the time he was there so you can imagine what it was like then. Went to high school there at Beverly High School and that's where I met my husband whose family lived in Wenham, Massachusetts, which is an area just north of where we lived that had no high school. So he was tuitioned into Beverly High School, and I guess we just, we had lockers, adjacent lockers, you know how kids used to in high school. And l loved that high school. It was really great. Had extremely good teachers, some. A wonderful English teacher who pushed and shoved me hard to love words, to recite poetry, to do this sort of thing. And a history teacher named Mr. Bellmore who taught us how to take exams which was a marvelous thing to do. Every Monday morning he passed out a piece of paper on which there were 5 questions and these were things we were going to learn this week in American history. On Friday he would choose one of these topics, throw out a question in regards to this, give us blue books just like you had in college and said, "You now have 20 minutes to write me an essay on this subject." Well once you got the idea and got onto it all you had to do is learn the material and recite it back in written form, which he then corrected, spelling, punctuation, to say nothing of the facts and by the end of senior year I could take an exam in almost anything if somebody would frame it just correctly. And it helped me tremendously in college to have had that training. It was a good high school. SY: Absolutely. Do you remember your first impression of your husband? CT: Yeah I do. I just thought he was so handsome and he was wearing a bright red cable knit sweater that his grandmother had made for him. Isn't that funny? Yes I do. But the interesting thing was his mother had just had a baby. A what? We were astonished. And that baby is his brother Dick who we still are very. very close to but all those years through high school Russ was a big draw for girls who loved to go up to his house and push the baby carriage and knit mittens for Richard and this sort of thing. It's funny isn't it yeah? Our parents, both sets of parents sensed it once this was an important relationship for both of us. So my mother called a woman whose name I've really tried hard to remember, but she lived in Wenham and mother knew that - her name was Miriam something - she knew that Miriam would have known the Todds through the town. So she called up to ask Miriam who these people were. Meanwhile the Todds who lived down the street from this ladyhad called her to say, "Do you know who these people are that live in Beverley?" And she assured both parents that this was okay that this you know is a good relationship and everybody relaxed and said, "Okay." We went to a lot of activities together in high school. SY: I was just gonna say. So this is what year? You were born in '28 so this is… CT: We graduated in '46 so it's late forties. SY: Okay so, yeah what were, what was dating like in the early forties? What were the protocols? 5 CT: Well, the boy usually called up or said, "Do you want to go to the movies?" That's what we did; we went to the movies. And the first few times we dated we went with his parents, his mother and father, because Russ didn't drive because he, I suppose he wasn't 16 come to think--oh he must have been. Well I don't know why we wend, but anyway we did, we went with the Todds and a couple of times. And then my mother and by then my father wasn't well, but anyway and we were living with my grandparents. But my mother said, "Why don't we have him for dinner before you go out?" I don't know where we were going so he came for supper and that was a big success because he was reasonably comfortable doing that. He had met them and we lived about 5 or 6 maybe 7 miles apart. They weren't really in our neighborhood but it was another town. And that we also used to do things like go to a large picnics that the coll--school would have like the chemistry department would have a picnic and we'd all go. And I can remember one time we won a three legged race. Because you see physically we were very much the same size. Of course we're not now because I've shrunk more, but we were then. I have longer legs and he had a longer torso but we could do things like, we're very much the same shape and size which was handy for three legged races if nothing else. SY: Exactly. I'm also realizing that you grew up during the war. And so I'm wondering what your memories of wartime in Beverley were like? Do you remember blackout curtains? Do you remember rationing? CT: Oh yeah, all those things. Blackout curtains were fun. Well they weren't fun but it was interesting because you had to have them, and you had to pull them down and sometimes you pulled them down and fasten them on the sill. But if you didn't do it just right they'd unroll and go "brrrt" go up and everybody'd "oh no." We also had to paint the bottom half of the headlights on the cars because we lived near the ocean. You know we lived right there on the Atlantic Ocean. So you had to do that in order that the, to take care of the submarines so they wouldn't see you when they came in close to shore. Which of course we learned they did later. We learned quite a bit about that. My father was in the Coast Guard Auxiliary. He was of the wrong age to be in the second world, in either of the world wars. He was too young for one, too old for another. And so he used to go out with the other men on his team and walk on the beaches in Beverly and sometimes in other towns nearby looking for lights in the ocean and he'd come home. All night they'd be out, you know, like 8 or 9 hours maybe longer at night. I can remember how tired he would be and every once in a while he'd say to my mother, "It was worth it, it was worth it," meaning they'd seen something and notified the people in Boston who took care of it, you know. They had a telephone system. It wasn't like a cell phone but they had some sort of a telephone system they could call. And he also in the summertime went out in a boat with his friend Homer Riggs and looking for people who are off our coast that didn't belong there. Which was sort of interesting too. We collected tin foil when you chewed gum. You got, you know each one was wrapped in a tin foil. Maybe it still is I don't know, and we made balls of tin foil. We collected newspapers. As we recycled them then we recycled them then in the World War II. We 6 also collected bacon fat. Nasty trick but you put any fat into a tin can or some sort of a receptacle that would have a lid. I can't remember what else. Oh my mother was a hoot. She decided if my father was going to be in Coast Guard Auxiliary she'd have to do something so she joined the Red Cross Auxiliary and learned to cook for large numbers of people. I have a recipe book somewhere - cocoa for 100, meatloaf for 250, you know. She never did it, she never had to do it. But they were prepared for any kind of emergency. Well the only emergency we ever had was in our town. There were icehouses full of saw dust where they stored the ice from Wenham Lake and Kelleher's Pond which was near our house and stuff. Well time had come for those things to burn. Nobody set fires but I went to at least 3 icehouse fires during those years which, because my father would get us up in the middle of the night. They always burned at night it seemed. SY: Why would they being set on fire? CT: They weren't set on fire it would be combustion, you know, some sort of combustion, internal combustion. No, they were not set on fire. SY: Oh okay. CT: No, it just, they were accidents that happened I guess. SY: But there were a lot during that time period which is interesting. CT: Yeah, I guess, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. SY: I don't know because it would be hard for an icehouse to be set on, it just seems strange to me. CT: When icehouses empty and there's no ice in there dripping. SY: Oh the sawdust I didn't realize that. CT: You see, would dry out [phone rings in background] I suppose that maybe lightning set it on fire. I really don't know. SY: But you would wake up and you would go - CT: And my father would say, "come on quick!" so my sister and I we'd jump [sound of getting ready in a hurry] and run down and mother would be in her suit in case she had to make coca for 100, and the 4 of us would go off. And the thing was to be sure to be watch your step because my mother like both of my sister and I tend to trip on things. So my mother once tripped over a fire hose and skinned her knee. Caused great trouble because then the other Red Cross volunteers all came around in excitement to give her a bandage. That was big stuff. SY: Because everybody was all dressed up with nowhere to go, they had nothing to do but make hot cocoa for 150 [laughs]. A Band-Aid for the woman who tripped! That's hilarious. 7 CT: And she's one of our volunteers too, "Oh dear there goes Helen again." But anyway it was sort of an adventure for us. Now the other thing about World War II that made a huge impression on me - down at the end of our street, the end of our street was right on the water itself. We lived about 5 or 6 houses up. I could count them maybe I'm not sure how many. Anyway, lived a family that had a little girl that we babysat, I babysat for and my sister did and we helped take care of this girl. Nice little handicapped - she had I'm not sure what but she was handicapped. But we, so we enjoyed her. She was a nice girl. And their father whose name was Les Buck was on the train. His father, her father was on the train going into Boston one time because the Boston went in from the, from Beverly, every day so people could work in what we called in Town. In town was Boston, not, and uptown was Beverly but in town was to go to Boston. So he goes in, he's going in town, and he's sitting there minding his own business and he had had language lessons when he was in high school like so many of us do, and he could figure that the people in back of him were speaking German. Didn't know quite what they were saying but it was clearly German. "Hmm," he said. So when they got to Boston, to the North Station, he just got off and walked into where - in the railroad stations then they had a lot military police and there were shore police from the Navy all the way around Boston - and went up and said what he'd heard. And said, "those are the two men right there," and they run right over and took them away. Just because they were speaking German which sounds awful doesn't it? SY: I mean who knows? They could have, right… CT: It could have been German. Who knows, but we always thought they'd come aboard out of a submarine which is apparently did happen many times, but we thought that pretty exciting. SY: Yeah because it happened on your street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. CT: But if Russ were here, he'd tell you another story about our family which is World War I that he unearthed, and that is that somewhere in the papers that he's got of our family there's a letter that my grandfather got beginning of World War I saying: "Dear Mr. Lee, because of your exemplary behavior and your role as president of a bank in this small town you are hereby appointed by the governor of Massachusetts and the President of the United States to be on the alert on anything untoward that might happen in your community. We are aware that on the same street where you live there is a Mr. Carl Klink and Mr. Klink is now a U.S. citizen but has many relatives overseas." And you can just hear this letter. Mr. Klink, charming man, ran a bakery uptown and they said, "if at any time you have concerns about anything going on your street. You are at once to…" you know it's terribly officious letter… SY: And it's good that it was your grandfather and not somebody else who was sort of a paranoid bully, right? And would have taken him out of the bakery. CT: It's possible, yeah. We knew them really well. His wife was a friend of my grandmother's. His daughter went to school with my aunt. His granddaughter was in my 8 sister's group of friends, you know. And so my grandfather just filed it under you know, but Russ found it not long ago which it's funny. SY: It's so interesting. CT: There must have been people all over this country that got letters like that, don't you think? And now we wonder about you know privacy and all that kind of stuff, yeah. SY: That's fascinating. CT: Isn't that interesting? SY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well and the "if you see something say something", right? The post 9-11 signs everywhere. I didn't realize that that's how it was done in World War I. That's fascinating. So what about the Depression, how did your family fare? CT: Well my father had a very bad experience. We're never going to get to, we're never going to get me grown up at this rate. But my father had a very bad experience and I'll try to tell it straight because it's a little difficult. He was co-owner of an automobile agency and they sold Chryslers and Dodge and maybe one other kind of car. I was pretty young when this happened. And he went off to work every day and they sold the cars and everything worked fine. His partner was a man named Mr. Berry like in strawberry, Ralph Berry. And the story goes that one day he was ah, he got up go to work, went down to the garage what they called it, where this agency was, there were no cars, there were no records, there was nothing in the office and Ralph Berry was gone and so was every single cent in the bank that belonged to this agency. This was before the days when we had limited partnerships and we had legal protections for people who entered partnerships. In other words this man stole everything and it caused a great deal, a great deal of distress as you could well imagine. My father eventually after a few days had what they called a nervous breakdown. Now I suspect it was a depression of some sort. I don't know what it was. But I know I don't what it was. But I know that he had he to stay in bed and the curtains had to be down and my sister and I either had to be very quiet or go across the street to where my grandparents lived and go stay. We stayed over there for a little bit. And I, how long it went on I don't know, but eventually of course he got over it, whatever it was. But what else could it have been but depression? He didn't have a stroke. I don't know. He, as a result of this always had high blood pressure so it must have happened in 1937 or '38. Or no even before - '36 or '37, because by '38 when I was 10 years old, he was okay I can remember. But anyway and he died very young from auxiliary problems from having high blood pressure which in those days they didn't treat. The only thing they did he was he was supposed to be on a salt free diet. You know almost everything, even eggs have naturally some salt in them and you don't have to add anything. But my mother made salt free bread. Oh there were all kinds of goings on but he just continually got worse and worse and he died when I was a, well he died in 194-, he died in the November of 194-, October of 1949. So the last few years of his life were pretty uncomfortable for him and for all of us you, know. But Mr. Berry got off from this scot-free to the best of my knowledge I don't know otherwise. Had the nerve shortly 9 after my father died to buy a beautiful big house in Hamilton which is another small town outside Beverly, with horses and big yards, and gardens and stuff. Married a second wife and came back to town. And I thought, "What gall?" now somebody, I hope nobody listening to this ever was a relative of this man. But he just caused an awful lot of heartache in our family. But shortly after that I think it was this didn't happen to my father alone. This sort of thing was going on all over the country. Times were getting hard, the Depression was hard on people and my mother and father managed to take care of us somehow, I don't know. There was no social security. I'm sure they used up every cent of savings they'd ever had. I know when we needed things like when we got to be a certain age and wanted to go to camp my grandparents always gave it to us for our birthday present. Winter coats magically appeared, you know. I can re--the only time I ever remember anything happening that affected me personally was I said to my mother, "I really need a new pair of shoes these are getting so worn out," blah, blah, blah. And she said, "Carol I know you do," and she said, "and you can have a new pair of shoes. We're just gonna have to wait until the first of the month." And so we waited until the first of the month and I got what I needed. But there was no ah, they didn't. We were very very fortunate. SY: And they protected you from--I'm sure they were filled CT: Absolutely! SY: with money anxieties but they protected you from that? CT: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. SY: And so your father never really got his footing back? CT: Well in a way he did. Because after he sort of got his wits back together he and a friend of his who is a doctor, and the father of one of my girlfriend's, and another gentleman who we knew got together and bought cranberry bogs in Rhode Island, in a little small town called Greene, Rhode Island that's on the border with Connecticut; in Marshfield, Massachusetts which is near Quincy and Duxbury; and a third one that I for the life of me can't remember where it was. And they formed little company called the Summit Cranberry Company. These were all cranberry bogs that at one time had been very productive and had been let go and they had the great pleasure of investing enough money in it to make them all productive. It was just the time that Ocean Spray was getting going and Ocean Spray kept trying to buy them out or buy their product. "No," said these strong New England gentlemen, "we are independent growers." They loved being…well of course it was their downfall but they remained independent growers and they sold through an independent agent. Only berries to be sold in crates in the grocery store, never anything boxed or barreled or made into juice or jelly [laughs] certainly not. Just straight cranberries and they had various, all these different kinds and my mother used to go and help during harvest season. She used to go down and live at one of the bogs with my father while he was managing the harvest and she would go and I don't know did things with the various women and stuff. 10 SY: A lot of the Cape Verde immigrants worked? CT: They did, yeah. Except the foreman who was the only man I remember. His last name was Thibodeau and that's French isn't it? SY: French-Canadian. CT: So he probably was French-Canadian and he had a daughter named Lilian who was my sister's age. And one year at Christmas in the midst of all this my family got together and they said now, "We want to tell you we always put aside a certain amount of money for your Christmas." And they said, "But we just feel this year that Lillian and her sister (whose name I forgot) need Christmas treats more than you do. Would you mind if we took some of your money and gave them?" We said, "No fine with us, we like these little kids too." Which they did and you know to this day I have no idea that we got any less or any different than we ever did. We never knew the difference, you know, but I love it that they told us what they were going to do. SY: Well I think they were modeling. They were teaching you something, yeah. CT: Yeah. SY: That's very interesting so he did manage to do it. So okay do you remember going down there during harvest time? CT: Oh yeah. Sure. SY: Did you help harvest? CT: No. We were always too small. They used women and no. And I think it sort of would have been against the ethic to have the boss's children paddling around in the. But interestingly enough wherever cranberries grow so do blueberries, and we would always pick all the blueberries we could and we'd bring them home and blueberry jam and blueberry pie, and give them to the neighbors and you know stuff like that. We picked blueberries. And if my sister were here she'd tell you a story that I'm not sure. She always says that one time when she was picking blueberries she began to feel really cross because my mother was sort of supervising her and saying, "Don't pick this one we don't want any green ones" [nagging sound] and she looked around and it wasn't my mother it was a bear that was standing by her. But that was the presence she felt was a bear. SY: Oh that's Blueberries for Sal. That's a children's book that I've read, she mixed that up. Blueberries for Sal is a story in Maine of a little boy named Sal picking berries. CT: It's Robert McCloskey isn't it? SY: Yeah, yeah. CT: Isn't that, that's where she got it. SY: That's where she got it. She thought it was her own story! [Laughs] that's hilarious. 11 CT: She probably--you can see as a little kid it just seems so much like the experiences she'd had. What a hoot and a half. SY: That's hilarious. CT: We're not going to let her hear this. Sorry, sorry. SY: You should buy her a copy of Blueberries for Sal and send it to her in the mail [laughs]. CT: Golly isn't that funny. SY: It's one of my favorite children's books it's lovely, yeah [laughs]. CT: Oh I am blushing here. SY: It's so funny. Okay so that's the forties at that point? CT: Yeah and then we went to high school and we worked hard and we had 2 or 3 good teachers, but some hm-hm. Oh Latin, my mother insisted we take Latin because she majored in German in college and she thought Latin was absolutely essential that everybody have lots of Latin. Because it was so good to help you figure out what all the words in other. To this day playing Words with Friends I'll give Pauline a French word and she'll say, "No you know you can't do that." But so we took French and we took lots of Latin in school and we had a French tutor whose name was Madam DeBesey and she was a French refugee of sorts, who made us come to her house and have tea and crackers after school one day a week. And have conversational French. It's so awkward you know, but we both learned a good deal. So that when I actually went to live in France I just turned on my high school years and was able to manage. SY: So your family wasn't part of the military. It doesn't seem like the military was part of your upbringing. CT: Oh, no, no except my father being in the Coast Guard Auxiliary. No, no we didn't know anything. But Russ' family was and when you talk to him he'll tell you about his dad and stuff. SY: And so when you and Russ started dating and seeing each other and it looked like it was going to get serious, you must have realized that you were probably going to be married to a man in the military. And what were your thoughts about that about that life? CT: Oh that's a good question. I don't--certainly in the high school years and in the first few years in college I just thought it was interesting that he was up here at Norwich going to school. I was in Northampton which isn't that far away and used to come up on the train to see him, and it was kind of fun except there were those fraternities. And I'm just too much of a stick in the mud or too, I don't know, I didn't find all this hilarity and all this drinking and stuff. I was just, I was just uncomfortabl,e it just didn't suit me. And so we became friends with several couples literally who were married and we were just 18-19 years old, but who were married and lived a more somber life here in the, you've 12 heard them talk about people who lived in the trailers down where Kreitzberg Library is. And some of these people who were, I was more comfortable with because they were more staid I suppose. And but we used to do things with the fraternity too. Russ had a good time working with them and we came up here, Junior Week was so much fun where they had polo game matches. SY: Can you pause for a second? Because I realizing your chair is making noise. CT: Oh yes I squeak this chair. SY: Let's just switch out the chairs is that possible? CT: Okay, sure. SY: Because I don't want because it's squeaky yeah. CT: I never even noticed it. SY: Yeah I didn't notice it until a little a while ago. Do you want me to move it or you got it? CT: No, no I've got it. Let's try that one. That's a newer one, give it a wiggle first and see. Better? SY: Quieter, way quieter [laughs]. CT: Yeah these are pretty old chairs. Alright good, I'll try not to. SY: Oh don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. I just thought you know why not get a less squeaky chair. Okay alright so you're coming up, so do you remember your first impressions of Norwich? CT: Not really, but one of things I really miss terribly is how beautiful Central Street was. When I came here Central Street was an arch of the most gorgeous trees all over the top and they took down the last of them, the one between the president's house and the next door just this spring. Beautiful trees. It was a very pretty place in the right weather. One of the times I came up here we've got a marvelous picture somewhere of me getting off the train and being met at the station downtown with the, by Russ and our friend Jim Ricker who was in, he also went to high school with us, and he was there too. So Jim came down too and a band from the university to meet the girls getting off the bus, ah, off the train. And I thought that was pretty swift you know. We always, the women in those days dates did not stay in the dorms [laughs] heaven forbid! We stayed with people around town and Russ can tell some funny stories about trying to get dates, places for me to stay because of course his father had gone here and his mother had come up to visit him and these people all remembered his dad because Dad Todd was a terrific dancer and they all thought this was fun to have Tommy Todd's son, you know, now coming to see him. So I got to know a few people who lived in town that way because I stayed at their house. It was fun. I was glad when put do--I was glad when they closed down the 13 fraternities it didn't make sense it and we still know people who fuss at it at with us and Russ just nods his head and said, "What can you do you know, it's how it is." SY: Change tradition, grumble, grumble. CT: Yeah. SY: Yeah. CT: But and you see that was talking about too and I'm talking about the changing tradition how it bothers me in another way when it's something that affected me more such as what goes on in Army life. It's just hard as you get older. It is. SY: It is hard, yeah change is hard. Okay so you would come up and you would stay with people in town? CT: Right. SY: And you would, oh so Junior Week you were talking about Junior Week. CT: Oh yes I had, let's see they had polo matches, which were great fun to watch. They had equestrian fancy riding, what do you call that? Dressage. They had all kinds of basket--not basketball, baseball games and other things that were really fun to do, as well as a dance. But the dances were really big time, they would pay somehow to have very big bands come here - Artie Shaw and all these people. Do you know who the Ink Spots were? Now the Ink Spots, I never saw them, but apparently they did come to Norwich once because as we speak somebody on behalf of the museum is trying to buy a poster that says the Ink Spots are coming to Norwich University. SY: I interviewed a guy two weeks ago, I'm blanking on his name, super nice man lives in town. Northfield, I mean Norwich graduate, who or I don't know if he graduated but he was at Norwich for a couple of years ,and he was in a band that played all the time during that period of time. CT: Oh I'm sure. SY: But I'm sure you know him but I can't remember his name right now. CT: I'm glad to hear you say you have the same trouble because I really can't remember a lot of these people's names. My vision and mentally I can see so many of these people and what fun it was. SY: Ha-Hammond? Hammond is his last name I think. He's in town, yeah but he was he played the saxophone and he played at all of these events on campus. CT: I'm sure. SY: Yeah. CT: I don't think….14 SY: Who knows? CT: I don't know that name. SY: Okay so you're at Smith during this time and what's your vision when you're at Smith of what your future's gonna look like. Are you thinking like when I graduate, were you thinking when I graduate I'm gonna get married, when I graduate…? CT: No I wasn't. Now that's interesting because Russ was always a part of my life from the time I met him. I think in a different way than most people get married so quickly to each other. He was just, I knew so much about him and his mother and his father and his brother and his sister-laws. But I also knew that somehow I needed to do something. I wanted to do something before I got married because in those days once you got married you probably weren't going to have a career. I don't know that I put it in words or said I wanted a career, (oh dear there's the rain) but I did want to, I guess try my skills. I guess maybe that's what I was thinking. So when it was time for me to graduate I majored in sociology with a lot of economics which I wasn't so good at, a lot of French, a lot of English literature. But the best courses I'll just don't mind telling anybody I ever took at Smith or anywhere else were art appreciation my senior year and music appreciation my French year. Those have lasted me so well so well. I oh well that's another whole story but so I always say to people I know going to college, don't just focus on what you might do for a career there's so much more to learn, don't sell yourself short. SY: That's what the liberal arts are about, developing yourself, right? CT: That's right yeah. Oh that art course was fabulous. Well anyway the upshot of all this is, so it's time for me to graduate and my sister however has still got another year. she's two years younger. But she was just a year behind me in school. So she was at Smith too and my father had died so I went into the--we all has appointments with somebody in the administration. Her name was Mrs. Mindel, but I don't know what her title was. And she said, "What are you going to do when you graduate?" I said, "Well I don't know for sure but there's a course at Radcliffe I'd really like to go to, a one year program in business administration. It is essentially the first year of the Harvard Business School which does not accept women as you know. But it's very much the same thing and I just would really love to do that and see if I can get some skills there that I could use." And she said, "Okay, let me think about this." So she called me back and she said, "Here's the deal," she said, "I'm going to call your mother and I'm going to suggest that if she will pay for you to go to this program at Radcliffe, I will give your sister full room and board and tuition for her senior year at Smith." What she was doing was giving me a graduate program. And they did. SY: Wow and I wonder….what an interesting arrangement because she wanted. CT: And my mother was just thrilled. She wanted me to have that opportunity. SY: That's great! 15 CT: It is--I have never heard of anything like it. SY: Me neither. CT: And I said, "really?!" And I know that the course I went to was nowhere, it was nothing dollar wise, I don't know what my mother paid but it was nothing like. But she knew, she knew that I was, that the family was having trouble financially and that we would've, they would have seen that Anne went, she would have finished, we would have found a way. So, "oh great," I said so off I went to be a bridesmaid in 2 or 3 weddings the way you'd often do it after in those days after college. And started in August at this program. Lived in Cambridge on Brattle Street. It was just a wonderful experience, learned how to write a one page memo that told, said everything you wanted to in you know 3 paragraphs. I just learned so much a lot about personnel work a lot about accounting. SY: Were you in classes with the men in the MBA program? CT: Oh no, no, no. We weren't even supposed to talk to them. No, no, no. SY: How did they make that clear to you? They said no talking to them or no interacting? CT: No, one of my classmates eventually, Jan Campbell eventually married the guy she met there, no. It was just. We were on the Radcliffe campus which was on Garden Street, do you know that area on Garden Street? And I lived at 69 Brattle Street and we had, we fixed our own breakfast, had lunch at the dining facility that was on campus, and then took turns fixing dinner. There were 9 of us that lived - I can make something for 9 in a flash - that lived in this house. And then the rest of the students who did not live in this house of which there were another maybe 10 or 12 lived at home or boarded somewhere else. But they were people that, I was the only person, there were two of us from Massachusetts. Everybody else was from another state. There were woman who were old as 30 [chuckles] old ladies. There were people who had majored in all kinds of different things, and the jobs they went onto afterwards were fabulous. One of my classmates had a seat on Wall Street. She was fabulous, Marilyn whatever her name was. And people worked for Bergdorf Gord-Goodman, Bergdorf Goodman as a buyer. Ah Jane, became the alumni, alumni director of Radcliffe before it amalgamated with Harvard. Interesting people. And it was a fabulous year. We had classes for a while then we had the first internship program, and I was sent to a--if I say Raytheon it was, it may have been Raytheon factory where I assembled the starters in the ends of a fluorescent tube. Did you even know there was one there? [laughs] Ah I am not dexterous. I never was dexterous and I tell you my experience on an assembly line where dexterity counted was so interesting. Because I didn't, I was not the star, I was the one that was holding them back. I was the bum. I was the rich girl from the college who was interfering, and the task was to win over my place in this --you know. Nobody said this, but that was the idea, to see what I could do in a situation like this. And it turned--and in the midst of this Russ has graduated from college and gone into the Army, and in the midst of this he came home to say good-bye to everybody when he went to Korea. And those were pretty bad scary days 16 so it was kind of a tough month in lots of ways. So he went off and I finished the st--this job and then went back and had some more classes and then in the spring this whole bunch of us got sent down to New York City where I worked for B. Altman which is, you remember which was a big. I had wonderful time doing that. I worked in their personnel office interviewing employees who had grievances and all kinds of things like this. It was very interesting. SY: And so you were living in New York on your own? CT: Well we, but we all had to live in a female hotel. Did you even know there was such thing? On 34th Street. And we lived there, just for a month. We were just there for a month and then we came back and had some more classes and finished up, I suppose in June. Meanwhile the recruiters are coming out and looking to recruit some of us and I got a job offer to be a personnel assistant at Mill Parr Incorporated which was an electronics research firm in Alexandria, Virginia. Well I knew what research was. But electronic research was really, I had no idea what they were talking about. It was such an experience. So I moved down to Virginia because I had a good friend who lived there and I could stay with Betty. And eventually worked there until Russ came home from Korea and we were married not too long afterwards. But it was a wonderful experience. SY: Do you want to get some water? CT: Yeah I think I'll just have sip here. SY: So do you remember -- did you see him off before he went for Korea? Do you remember, did you talk about if he didn't come back? Like what were the conversations? CT: Oh no, nope, no. He took me out to dinner at a local hotel, Hawthorne Hotel in Salem, which is nice hotel. And we had gone a lot of times I guess, well I don't know. But I just remember that we sat there and looked at each other and no we didn't. And I think we both knew that it was a go but we just had to wait. And I had told him before and he had asked me a million times to marry him and I said, "no, no, I got things to do, I got things to do." And I said, "I've done some things, you know, I'm good." I just had to fulfill that part of me I guess is what it comes down to and talking to you about it helps me clarify for myself what I was doing. I was just needing to know who I was, I could do things, I could succeed, not only academically but I could succeed when you put that thing to work. If not in the eyes of everybody but for myself I knew that I was good to go, you know, I could do things. SY: Yeah you had to live on your own in the world for a little while. CT: Yeah, and my mother who interestingly enough had gone down to Smith too and graduated in 20-in 1913. She was determined that both my sister and I would have that background, you know, that we'd be able to be on ourselves if we needed to be that we could be strong women, yeah. SY: Yeah it's important to know.17 CT: Yeah. SY: You never gonna know what's gonna happen in life and she'd certainly had enough upsets in her life to know that you needed to be able to make it on your own. Um, I had a question that I just lost. Okay so you're living in Alexandria by yourself, are you guys engaged at that point? CT: Nope. Nope. Russ called me from Kor--no not from Korea from Japan. They had R&R in Japan and he called me up and said he would be home on the (I don't know--I've forgotten it was January something) I said great and he said, "Well would you come to New York and meet me?" His parents by then had moved and were living in Scarsdale, New York. And he said, "Come, you know, spend the weekend at the folks." I said, "I will and let me know when," and he said, "I will." And we just talked a little bit. And said, well that's what happened. I guess we were past having to really verbalize a lot you know? We knew what we were doing. We just had, I had to grow up, time had to pass. People would say, "How could you date somebody for so long?" and I said, "Well we didn't date exclusively," We--oh he used to date a friend of mine, not a friend, a woman I knew that I couldn't stand, and I swear he dated her just to make me mad, you know. It was alright. and I dated this guy Jim Ricker a couple of times and he was practically engaged to somebody else. It didn't matter. It was something else. And I dated some guys from MIT who were a funny bunch. We just needed to have some experiences before we settled down is what it comes to. SY: But it sounds like you also knew that that was eventually where you were going. CT: Yeah. SY: Yeah. Oh this is what I was going to ask. In his oral history interview he talks about how he was kind of messing up and not doing so well in school at first and how you were like "you get it together, or we're done." Is that true? CT: Yeah it's true. Let's see when that was. I don't know exactly but it was in the summertime and I was staying at my grandmother's house which because they had what they called a maid's room upstairs. They used to have, they used to have full time help of course nobody did then. A wonderful bathtub with claw feet you know. But anyway so I was staying there. So he came down and we went out to play tennis one afternoon and we were hitting balls around and I finally said to him, "You know if you don't settle down and get some good grades and make some sense out of going to college," I said, "I just am not going to marry a loser. This is just ridiculous, you know you've just got to." And he just [sounds of bickering] and he was furious. He was mad and I was mad and he went home. He went back to New Hampshire or wherever he came from and then after that he's always done well academically. Because he just, he was acting like Maggie like our granddaughter I told you about. He was just having "such a good time." SY: At those fraternities? CT: Yeah. And in the military part of it. He really liked that, you know. 18 SY: Yeah. So okay, so you've been working on your own, right? You get married and suddenly your whole life changes. So what's your new life like? How do you learn what you're supposed to be doing? What the expectations are being married to him? What's his rank at that point? CT: Second lieutenant. SY: Second lieutenant, okay. CT: Or maybe first, he may have been a first lieutenant by the time we've, yeah he was. He'd gotten promoted in Korea. See he was over there during the worst of Korea and he…. SY: And did you know what was going on with him over there? CT: He wrote letters all the time. SY: And were they honest? CT: No, no not really, no. Just as well. He had a classmate that was killed you know? Somebody from Norwich, Pete DiMartino, maybe his name was. Be sure to ask him to tell you sometime because we should remember that. No not really. I just trusted him. I wasn't, he's been in a lot of bad scrapes and I never really have worried about him. I just trust him to know what to do. He has more common sense than most people I know, and he wouldn't try to second guess something, he'd do what was right. And he'd rather do what's right and fail and do what's wrong, you know. And he had a strong sense of doing the right thing and he did. Has he told you about how he won a Silver Star? SY: No. I haven't but I haven't interviewed him yet, so I've read other people's interviews. CT: But do make, be sure that he does tell you that. Because he never tells people. He won a Silver Star in Korea at a very young man. SY: So okay, so you're, where do you get married? CT: Oh where'd we get married? We got married in Beverly at home. At the church around the corner where I grew up. And some of these same people that I told you I had known in kindergarten were bridesmaids, plus Russ's sister who's a bit younger, then my sister too. It was really nice, it was the kind of wedding people had then where we had the wedding at the church and then walked back to the house and had a reception in the backyard with beautiful garden that we discovered florists will help you make if your garden isn't looking so well and you want to have a party. You call the florist and they bring in big pots of things and dig them in. Most gorgeous garden you ever saw. It was all gone the next day or the day after they just dug. It was fabulous and yeah, we had a good time. We went on a honeymoon down to Cape Cod where some other cousins had a cottage at the beach at a tow--place that's now called New Seabury but I know it's near Barnstable I think. But anyway we went there and had a nice time. And then we drove 19 out to Fort Knox and I'll tell you that summer I had been hot in my life but nothing like that humidity, you know? I thought this place is the pits. One of the wedding presents, he'd love to tell you this story. One of the wedding presents we got was a hand mixer, but it was so hot in that house he said, "I'm going to take the hand mixer and I'm gonna make us a window fan." I said, "Russ you cannot make a window fan out of a hand mixer," and you said, "You watch me." I don't know what he did. It had do with baking pans and ice cubes and the motor from this poor little hand mixer which can turn two little beaters. Well we laughed so hard we almost died laughing. But it helped not at all, but he had a great time thinking he could fix it for me you know. SY: Taking care of you that way. It's very sweet [laughs]. CT: I have learned to say when he tells me about a new invention, "ah I don't think so." [both laugh] He's usually right. He fixed something yesterday. He's a good fixer. It has to do with being so practical and having such good common sense. I don't ever fix anything I just "oh look it's broken," you know. SY: So what did you do during the day because he was working on the base? What were you doing? CT: What did I do? SY: During that time….? CT: Gosh I don't know. We lived next door. Well one of the fun things we lived next door to young George Patton and his wife Joanne who we have been so fond of all these years. And well that's one of the things I did now come to think of it. Joanne had gone to fancy place for her honeymoon, so I think that is not a good thing to do. She'd gone I think they had gone I think to Bermuda. I think they'd gone to Bermuda and she had gotten rheumatic fever. I think that's it. I think it was Bermuda but I may be wrong but I think so. And so she had to go to the hospital because she was really sick. Well the hospital was not air conditioned naturally. So one of the things that her husband George who had no common sense you may know, he decided that we would provide her with cold drinks and it would be nice if I could help with this. I said sure. So he had a pitcher and I, we still have one like this, a pitcher that has an insert so you put ice cubes in the middle and then you. So about every so often I had to run over and change her ice cubes [laughs] but I was glad to do that. I really liked her and I still do. She was a good, she's almost 3 years younger than we are, maybe more. She'd just graduated from college when they were married. Oh so many funny stories about them. Gosh, well anyway we had a good time. I also had this friend, this Jane Nutting that I mentioned before, who I'd known from before and she was my friend. And there was a girl named Ann something lived across the street who was pregnant and that was kind of fun watching her because we were all pregnant because that's what you did then. SY: So you were pregnant? 20 CT: I was pregnant right away. Char—Tom was born in April, so. But I didn't feel sick or I didn't have any problems for a while, all through the summer. And then I came down with something that I still have because it's a really funny disease. It's called erythema nodosum which you may never heard of because most of the doctors I've run into also say they never heard of it. But it's an allergic reaction to catching a cold in the spring or the fall. In that first fall I caught a cold and then my legs, and I didn't have it as much in my arms as on my legs would break out in huge areas of black and blue. And every time a new area popped out my temperature would rise and I would look like I was sick. Well I wasn't sick it was just until that black and blue got established. Then my temperature went down and I went on my merry way. But because I was pregnant they were sure something dreadful was wrong with me. Well it wasn't and somebody finally must have checked in the medical dictionaries and found out what this was, and decided not to worry about me because I had it then and I've probably over the years had it 5 or 6 times. Which is in the spring and in the fall if I get a cold I make every effort to get rid of it right away because I don't want to go into the next stage. And I haven't had one now for a long long time. But that was that was part of it and so the first Christmas that we were married Russ's sister Jane, who was young, a bit younger, was teaching school in New York state somewhere and she said, "I think I'll come down and spend Christmas with you so you won't be so lonely." Wonderful. So she came and flew down to Kentucky and we got her a date with a British foreign officer who was there attending a class, who fell head over hands in love with Jane. Jane was appalled really his name was Anthony, "really," she said. He kept saying to her, "Oh I want to take you back to England with me. You'll love my mom." My mom, and her woollies and her tea and I don't know, Jane was, she kept saying, "I'll stay until Christmas, but I got to go home." We had parties, lots and lots of parties in those days in the neighborhood next door and parties were just people getting together and bringing your own beer, you know, and maybe somebody would get some crackers and cheese out but no big deals. And then the units would have parties and you'd get invited to the post to a party. Meanwhile Russ has gotten to be the aide-de-camp to the commanding general, partially because George Patton's mother, Mrs. Patton - darling, darling lady - had come to visit. And one of the funniest memories I have of that early summer, Joanne's in the hospital with rheumatic fever. I'm running around trying to take Mrs. Patton to where she wants to go. She doesn't have a car. So every time she needs to go somewhere, "Oh Carol would you mind running me?" "No, I'd be glad." So one day she came over to our house and she said, "I am just too exhausted, so can I just sit in here and visit with you?" I said, "Certainly, Mrs. Patton." Well my mother and aunt had given me an old two-seater couch that must have belonged to I don't know who, whose springs had long since lost their elasticity. She was a little tiny lady, she sat down and disappeared. So that she was sitting with her knees up around her -- you know how people do it? I thought, "Oh this is so bad!" Well I said, "wouldn't you like to sit," I had one decent chair, "Wouldn't you like to sit here in my wing chair would you like to sit here? I would be so happy to you know." "Oh, no, no, this is fine." So she sat there until Russ came home from work for lunch. Because they came home for lunch and he said, "Oh hi Mrs. Patton, what are you 21 doing in the hole there? Can I help you up?" "No, I'm fine." So she said, "What's up with you?" and he said, "Well they just they asked me if I want to be aid to a General Collier." And she said, "Oh good idea, aren't you excited about." And he said, "I don't know if I should be doing that or not." And she said, "You should, you should, it's a good thing to do." She said, "Go upstairs and put on a clean uniform while Carol gets your lunch on, I'm going home now and you just be your natural self. You'll get chosen." Well of course that's exactly what happened and he did it for the next year or so. But I'll never forget her sitting there in that yellow couch with her knees, oh how I felt bad. But she was always friends with us ever since, and when Tom was born she sent him a lovely baby present. And well then she went home and Joanne Patton's mother came who also is a general officer's wife but instead of being the kind you'd put in your broken couch. She was Mrs. Holbrook and she was a bit fancier. By then I'd caught on, you see, and I managed to keep her sitting in the good chair. But she used to come over all the time and it was the same sort of thing. She'd come over and say, "I do need to run down to the PX," or "My friend Peggy so and so is having a coffee would you mind dropping me off?" well it was lucky that Russ - I don't know how I got the car, Russ must have gone in with a friend knowing that I needed to, because we lived about 2 miles from where the guys were working. Oh it was a hoot but that was one of the things I did that summer and that maybe is how I learned about the community you know come to think of it. This is such a good experience for me too, I'm thinking about these things that are more critical. Maybe that's how I learn this is what you do when people need you, you fill in and do what you need. And it's fun as long as you, I didn't have anything else to do you know. That was good and I wore all my, I can remember wearing one of the dresses I had from my trousseau, a really pink really nice beautiful cotton dress and I decided to put it on one day because we were going to drop off Mrs. Holbrook I guess at an event. She was going to a coffee and could I come back at x hours let's say 11:30 to take her home again. Okay. Don't--nobody says would you like to come in, or I'd like to introduce you to my friend, no no. So I come back at the appropriate hour and I park where she told me to park and I wait and I wait and I wait. By and by all the ladies come out, the coffee it's over, and they're leaving and getting into their cars and she walks across the street and interestingly enough her hostess--oh I can see her now--she walked with her. They came over to the car and Mrs. Holbrook jumps in but her hostess says, "Oh Carol," she said, "You're so kind to take," what's her name home and all this. I said, "I'm very glad to do that," and she said, "And what does your husband do in the Army? And what does your husband do in the Army my dear?" And my dear cleverly remembered and I said, "Well he's working as an assistant instructor at the Armored School," or whatever it was. And she said, "Oh that is so interesting. My husband works for the same Armored School." Course he was the commander, you know, and she said, "I was hoping he has a wonderful time with…" She was so gracious as compared to what the other side was doing. I thought even then I thought "ha ha this is what makes a difference" you know. She was so gracious and she was so sweet to me when she had no reason to be, you know?22 SY: And do you think she said something to her husband too? Do you think like your relationships with women and other wives in some ways helped your husband's career? Is that the way it worked? CT: If so I don't know. I don't know, maybe, maybe, but I don't know. SY: If you'd been rude it might have hindered his career? CT: Well that's right. "Oh boy he married a dud," yeah. And in a way, in a way it was interesting because most of the lieutenant's wives were college graduates. Most were. I'm trying to think of anybody who wasn't. Either that or heiresses, a couple of them were really very wealthy ladies who whenever they had a party served champagne, yeah champagne this is [inaudible]. But that's right but that marriage didn't last either that's interesting. She's the only person I ever knew who got infected by dropping a pickle, a pickle fork that she was polishing on her foot when she had no shoes on. It went [makes dropping sound] and she didn't pay any attent--I thought now that is a odd thing to happen to somebody. SY: That's a strange injury. CT: But I haven't forgotten it have I? SY: And you're careful with your pickle forks I bet. CT: Never polish a pickle fork is the answer. SY: Clearly. Alright note to self. CT: If you could even find one. SY: Yeah I was just gonna say. CT: Yeah, long time ago. This is way back in the 19, early 1950s and the Army was a different game than it is now. It was a different game. It was, it was always good that Russ had graduated from Norwich. Always, it always was even so long ago. And now it's really, but when Russ got to be a general officer he was the first one in years and years and President Hart was so thrilled because they hadn't had anybody promoted in a long time. SY: Yeah. Okay so then where do you go next? I mean we don't need to go through every one of your placements. CT: Oh I can't. SY: But I guess where were the places you liked best? And what were the places you liked least? CT: And people ask me that too and I can't help but say the same thing that has sort of been my whole life. I seem to be pretty adjustable or limp I don't know which it is. But wherever I am at the time for the most part I'm fine, I'm just fine. Ah we had a really bad 23 experience - our Tom was born as I said the next April, cute little guy and he was fine and life went along until the spring when he was (in January he would have been what 8 or 9 months old) and he was learning to crawl. And I was in the kitchen, I don't know, just fixing something for dinner. Russ was reading the newspaper, watching the baby, and the baby crawled across the floor. We didn't even know he could crawl this much you know, we just had plunked him down. He crawled across the floor and I had started a coffee pot. We used to call them a Silex pot, they had [oops] two sort of bulbs, the water went "brrrp" went up into the top and then dripped down. And I had started a pot of coffee for our dinner and he heard this noise I'm sure, crawled across thought: "Hmm what is this?" and saw the cord hanging down, you know, like this. Put his hand on the cord and it broke open on the back of his neck. Ah we picked him up rushed him to the hospital and they had moved the emergency room the week before or something. Of course we didn't, who pays attention to stuff like, so we got to the hos--we got to the right place and the person, the doctor on duty was a dentist. Nicest man you'd want to know but he was no surgeon and he said, "I'm going to I'm going to have to cut off this beautiful handmade sweater this child has got on." I said, "Why not, oh yes." He said, "I'll ruin the sweater." I said, "Ruin the sweater," you know. He was in the hospital -- it was January 13. He was in the hospital in the hospital for about--his birthday, probably until the first of April. Had numerous, not transfusions, but trans--what do they call it? When they take your skin from one place put it….? SY: Transplants CT: Transplants, numerous transplants. He was just a baby. They had never worked on baby before at Fort Knox. The doctor was terrific, the surgeon, he got on the telephone with the same burn center I told you about before where Steven was in San Antonio. This is 50 years before and tells, says, "Okay, when you go to do the transplant you get on the phone with me. I'll take you through it step by step and you can do this, you can do this." And if you just see my son right now without a shirt on all you'd see is a ring around his back like this where they hooked on the transplant. Everything took and he's fine. He's never had a minute's problem with his, they took all the skin off his chest and put it on his back. They took it all off his thigh and put it on his arm. This arm unfortunately after he'd been, it turned out alright, but after he'd been in there awhile all bandaged up with catheter tubes running though it to keep his wounds soaking wet so they could work on him. They said to me, "Say Mrs. Todd. Funny little thing on your son's arm," he said, "What is that?" I said, "I don't know," "What do you mean what do you mean what is it?" he said, "It's looks as though he might have had a vac" I said, "Oh yes he had his vaccination done just before this happened." And they said, "Well you are the luckiest people in the world because it has festered and scabbed over, and all this water running through it has not opened the scab. If it was he'd have generalized vaccinia all over his whole body." But he didn't, he didn't, worked out fine. He barely has a tiny little mark there now. He's a great big 60 year old man with, you would never know. It was just if and they were so good to us and we stayed in a private room in that hospital at Fort Knox with him. One of us was with him all the time except when people began to say "We can 24 stay with him. We can keep him happy." He was-he is a very good natured person. He still is, he's very patient and even as a baby he would just lie there and look at, you know, we had a thing what do you call it, twirly thing over his head so he could…. SY: A mobile… CT: Mobile, yeah and he had a music box that he loved. I bet I used to wind that thing endlessly and as long as there was a little music going he'd be quiet. SY: You must have been beside yourself though with worry? CT: We were, we were, yeah. But people were very supportive. He was working for General Collier and Mrs. Collier used to come and babysit him. She said, "I'll stay with him. Go get your haircut or something. Run around the block. Get some fresh air. Do something." It was a long winter. And yeah, yeah. And then he came home from the hospital. He could not sit up he could not stand up of course. SY: Oh because he missed all those developmental milestones? CT: Within 2 weeks he was not only sitting up he was pulling up and he was walking in a month and he was, he just made it all up in no time at all. It was amazing. SY: And I assume, I mean he was so young he doesn't have any memories of that time? CT: None. SY: Okay. CT: The only thing he remembers is the last doctor we saw during this said to us, "When he is," I think 12 was the age, I remember 12, "I want you to take him to a plastic surgeon and have them check out these sites and there may be a place where they'll feel it needs to be repaired." They said, "We can't guarantee this will last him his lifetime." But he said, "Take him and the guy they'll know." So we were living in Germany at the time and we took him to a, wherever this was, Stuttgart to the hospital where the surgeon was, and explained the story to him. And he said, "Okay. Okay little guy come on over here. Can you climb on my lap? Sure." He loved to climb up into your lap and they played and talked and you know made his arms and legs go and he said, "If I throw a ball down the hall, will you run and get it?" he said, "Sure," so they threw it down the hall and he ran down. He was not that old, he was near 6 because he was still, and he ran down the hall picked up the ball and came back and the guy said, "Everything he's got, every muscle moves the way it's supposed to. He's fine," He said, "There's no indication to do anything." He said, "if the time comes when he gets psychotic about it, and hates the fact." He hasn't looked at his back, how often do you look at your back? Like never. He has no more and his legs and place and his chest they grew back, it all grew back. He's fine. Isn't that funny? It's wonderful. We used to say to each other that if we ever had to pay for this in a private hospital Russ would have had to get out of the Army and get a big paying job or something because the bills must have been huge. 25 SY: But they took care, it was all taken care of? CT: It was 7 dollars a week to keep him in the hospital because you had to pay for the food. Well he ate 2 jars of chopped liver, I don't know what it was they were eating you know. We were worried. On the other hand, you know I think it had gone past, we couldn't worry anymore and we had to have faith that they were gonna and I think having a good attitude helps in all these things. SY: You don't have time to be filled with anxiety. You just have to do it. CT: No, no, that's right. SY: Yeah. CT: And and neither of the girls ever had anything serious so we were fortunate, yeah. SY: Now, Phyllis Greenway has some crazy stories of you know of her husband you know her being I don't remember where they were maybe it was Fort Knox and her husband being assigned to Hawaii and her having to fly across the country with all of her stuff and the baby and do all this stuff by herself. Did you have experiences like that of just sort of having to manage these moves alone? CT: Oh yeah lots. Yeah. The first move overseas Russ had gone in the fall and I went in probably in mid-December and took Tom. He was, let's see. Yeah and he was fine by then. This was, but he had the cutest little red snowsuit with a little head and we, he and I went down to Fort Hamilton which is Staten Island maybe, and went out with a group of Army wives in a chartered flight. But we swear that the pilot had a date in Paris because we flew to Paris and they put the plane down and it was 6 or 8 hours before he came back. And we thought, "Just a minute, just a minute, we need to go Heidelberg, get over here!" and then we flew on to Frankfurt or wherever it was, yeah. But yeah and then lots of times when we moved I moved I would be -- they seemed to have a way of finding they have to be somewhere else when the. But the one thing I insisted on was that somebody else was gonna do something else with the equipment like the TV and anything else that had a cord that I didn't know how to wind up and put an elastic around sort of thing. I said, "If you can't do it, you got to get one of your buddies to come and help me. I'm just not gonna fool with this stuff." And it got more and more complicated as the older we. And the last person who ever was the one who got tapped to come and do that was John Greenway. When he was Russ's deputy he came and organized all my stuff when it was, when we were moving from Fort Hood to Georgia I guess to Fort MacPherson, yeah. SY: That's funny you guys have known each other for a long time. CT: Oh yeah we knew them well before that. Phyllis is a wonderful cook. I hope you've talked to her about that. SY: I have actually. And she's made motions about having me over to dinner. So I should remind her of that. And she has all that beautiful French cookware too [laughs].26 CT: She does and she's a good cook. SY: I believe that we talked about cooking a little. I'm trying to think because there's this, you know there's so much to talk about here and I don't want to skip over important milestones but we should also probably get to Norwich huh? CT: I think so. Well time passes [both laugh] and um let's see…. SY: Oh well let's talk about volunteering. So you begin to take on this sort of professionalized volunteer role it seems like the Army started to recognize that what you were doing was critical. So could you talk about that? CT: That's absolutely true and I'm trying to think where we were. I think it was those years we lived in France, '63 to '66. We lived oh goodness this is so--I'm gonna have to write a book. So it was such an interesting thing. We lived on the French economy. Fortunately my lessons came swirling back standing me in good stead because our youngest Ellen went to French school, the words I didn't know she probably did which was handy. But we had, we lived in a really nice house. Odd situation but it was nice and you could walk to the over to post. And during those years there were lots of young enlisted people who lived in very difficult places. They didn't speak French, they didn't know the people, and the Army Community Services began to be formed to offer assistance. You had to come on post but there were buses that ran around the community that brought people and we taught things like how to run a, do a checkbook. We taught people very basic things - here's where to find out how to buy food, you know the things that you want, here are the words in French. If you can't get to the commissary and you do go to a, here are the things in a French grocery store that you can buy that are gonna be almost exactly like you'd buy at home if you buy this, you know. It's just very very basic things but even before that, even before I had Tom I had developed somehow a reputation of being somebody who could give talks to other groups of women about really simple stuff. And it started out being with Army etiquette. That was way back when, way way back before I had any children, that first year because I knew one of the colonel's wives. I don't know how well I knew Betty Chandler or how I knew her but I did know her and she said, "Well you know could you do this?" So I started giving these talks which has led me to feeling more comfortable addressing groups of people. Particularly if it's about something I know something about. Tough when you don't, but you can usually fake it some [laughs] and then call on so and so to fill in the gaps or something. But that's really how I started doing this and then time passes and I'm always volunteering to do something. Some things I loved doing, some things I was terrible at. I really really was not good at working in a hospital. I have to go to the hospital you have to make me well if I'm sick. I will be nice to, you know, but I don't want to be there. I really did not like being a Gray Lady but that's what they used to call them Gray Ladies. For one thing you had to wear these awful gray dresses. They were made of heavy, heavy cotton and every time you went it had to be starched and cleaned. Well I couldn't afford sending mine to the cleaners so the day before I went I'd spend, you know, starching and ironing this thing. Well the whole thing was absurd so that I decided that was no good. 27 But I could do things like teach somebody how to balance a checkbook. I could talk to people about the basics of baby care and this sort of thing, and so I was glad to do it. But I began to realize as many, many senior people did the longer you're in this game how great the need is help other people use volunteers well. And how important it is that volunteers be used with compassion and common sense so that the gift that they're giving you of their time and talents and everything else are maximized for their benefit and yours. Because when you go and do something as a volunteer for somebody and come home feeling disappointed or abused it's no good. It doesn't have to be that way and that's how I got into this volunteer administration role which eventually is what became the sort of the climax of my time doing this. I worked in thrift shops, I worked every sort of thing, organized all kinds of events in this sort of thing but the best thing I really think I did was begin to show them how important it was that the people who manage and lead volunteer programs have an understanding of some of the basics. Such as a volunteer needs to have a job description. A what? I said a job description. You don't need it be very long, it does not have to be complicated, but if you ask someone to do a task you have to know what the parameters of this job are. Ah amazing! Ah and because of this I wound up going with Joanne Patton as it turned out to Colorado to the University of Colorado at Boulder, and that's a wonderful place, to go through a summer program and I did it twice with her about how to help people become good volunteer managers. And that woman's name was Marlene Wilson and she wrote the first book ever for volunteer managers - and I think I've still got my tattered copy in there - in about 1980. And so it really was during the time that we were here that I began to do more and more of that. And I think that may be one of the contributions I made was generally to people I ran into I kept trying to say, "Let's get this straight. Exactly what are they supposed to do? How are you going to thank them down the road? Is there a chance that they could be the boss of this? They could be the team leader? Or no." Those things need to be thought through and you need to put the whole task in language that everybody feels comfortable with. SY: Yeah what was the assignment that the chief of staff gave you in Europe? CT: [chuckles] Well that's right. That was the last time, that was in late '70s before we came here in '82. They began to realize how important this sort of thing was, so they asked me to take this assignment to, on behalf of the Army, to go around the various places where Americans were stationed and talk about this with the commander and the commander's wife and anybody else would listen, and some of the volunteers to be sure people were having a good experience volunteering. And I wrote a quarterly newsletter for them about what was going in Bad--what's her name over here in Frankfurt or Heidelberg just sort of encourage people and just say we were all in this together and we're trying to make life better for all of us here as volunteers and it's worth it to do it. And you met with various levels of success but it was worth doing, it really was. SY: And did you also see gaps in the kind of Army infrastructure? CT: Oh yeah. 28 SY: Yeah, yeah, what did you notice? What did you? CT: I noticed that there would be places where the commander and his wife could care less about the situation. And perhaps there were needs for transportation for one thing, so that people who lived what we called on the economy, lived out in the community, could not easily get -- if the husband went off to a duty somewhere else or on the "into the field" as we used to say to do exercises, the wife would be stuck out in the. So we used to talk about setting up transportation networks, you know, could Mrs. X contact Mrs. Y and they could work out something together or not. Or do we need to work on finding some way that a bus goes around talks to people, yeah. That was one of them. But mostly there was a tremendous, very, very nice response to my interest. And because I was doing it sort of with a little bit of authori--I didn't mean authority, but people knew that they were supposed to listen. And I enjoyed doing that. And that made it very easy for me to move into the role that I had here because it's the same thing, or least it was the same thing. SY: And that's actually a question, how do you think you -- I mean the first lady of Norwich, the president's wife, that role of being sort of the president's wife - how did you conceptualize it? And how do you think you conceptualized it differently than the women who'd come before you? CT: I knew Marilyn Hart and we must talk about this again before we go further. I knew Marilyn Hart because they used to come and visit us a good deal. Wherever we were there would be Norwich events and often, I don't know often but enough that I felt like I really knew her. You know she's a really nice lady had 2 kids, got a son Matthew and a daughter whose name is I've forgotten I'm sorry to say. But and we would talk and visit I would take her on functions and things like that. And I knew darn well that I never could never fill the same function that she did. She had been a faculty wife. She had worked with him all the years helping him do things. I'm sure she corrected papers. I'm sure she did everything. She was really smart. But she had a fabulous memory a fabulous memory. I admired that so much. She would -- the receiving line he would be first and she would be second and any number of people, they could be students, they could be people from the State Department would come through, she would know who they were just from seeing them. And she would say to him, "Joe Smith, English class of '64, '64, he shoveled snow for you one time." And he would say, "Joe, remember the time you came and shoveled snow?" I could never do that. That wasn't, I couldn't do that. On the other hand she wasn't comfortable organizing a luncheon or saying, "I think we should do something or support." There was a woman here whose husband was the athletic director her name was Jen, his name was Wally Baines, her name was Jen Baines. And Jen wanted to have a faculty picnic twice a year. "Good. Let's do it." The Harts had the role in this, not of encouraging them and seeing people came and this sort of thing, but of sitting at the door with a checklist seeing who showed and who didn't show up. Well no matter what anybody thinks, no matter how much you might [inaudible] you gotta remember who showed and who didn't show up. It set things off in a bad note. So we29 said well we won't, we don't need to do that. So I'd say to Jen, "How many people you think are going to be there?" "Eighty-four." I said, "Eighty-four? Wow that's great. Just about everybody." I said, "Is everybody who might like to come, do they know about it?" She said, "Well I don't know about the people in physics." I said, "Well what should we ought to do?" I said. She'd say, "Well I ought to." "Or maybe you ought to call up somebody." I said, "I'll be glad to call up somebody just to be sure they know." That's nothing. That doesn't hurt anybody's feelings. I think I spent a lot of time sort of trying not to hurt people's feelings. SY: And easing things over, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah so that was a big part of your job, right? CT: Yeah it was, yeah. I'll tell you something else Marilyn Hart did which I think was amazing. She addressed a Christmas card to everybody on the University's list. I think there were 800 names on that list, not only people who worked here but people in town, people in Burlington. And the first year when they came to me at Christmastime and they said, "Here's your list," I said, "Give me a break here, what do you mean?" And they said, "No this is the job of the president's wife to address the Christmas cards." I said, "Then there won't be any this year. You don't want me doing it believe me you don't." They said, "Whose going to do it" and I said, "Don't ask me, I don't know. You'll have to figure it out." Since then somebody on the staff has just had to start addressing about in September. But you can do that, you know? You can address the envelopes anytime. SY: Yeah but that, you weren't, that wasn't the way you wanted to spend your time. CT: Oh I wasn't--I wouldn't even consider it yeah. SY: So talk about the role you did end up playing. The Peace Corps was pretty critical huh? CT: I wound up working almost working full time in lots of ways as a volunteer, because I was always a volunteer. It's what I did. SY: Though by the end you were getting paid, right? CT: Pardon me? SY: You were getting paid by the end, right? CT: Yeah, in a way. In a way. My hus--did I tell you? explain this to you? Yeah about how Russ took part of his salary and had it given to me instead. SY: So it was symbolic, but it seems important. CT: Well it, by that time it was to me, really, yeah. And I don't know how much the university knows about that. I, I don't care if they do or not. SY: It's the same money going to the same family I don't think it matters, but. 30 CT: Well it did because it helped my social security contributions. But not enough to do any difference. That was okay I was glad to--the whole business about the Peace Corps Prep Program started because I was very active in this Association for Volunteer Administration which was a national organization. Ah really a…a busy, a small organization, but a good organization for people who are in the same area, who are interested in making volunteerism not effective, effective is a good word for it is. And it was before we had national volunteering, before, it was when the Peace Corps was getting going, it was well before AmeriCorps and all this business was started. And these women met once a year and I eventually became the vice, one of the vice presidents for this and served on lots of committees I think because I come across as being efficient, reasonably efficient. And Chris Frankland who was the president asked me to fill out, fill in a second national role and I did that. And I really liked doing it, I liked the people I worked with. It isn't, the organization is now defunct. They made a big mistake in hiring an executive director that they didn't vet appropriately. The man wiped them out every single cent and disappeared and they never, they never could get going again. They had lost all their assets. SY: It's like Mr. Barry. CT: It is! it is! It's the same idea! It is the same idea! Oh my goodness, aren't you smart. I never thought of that. Ah yeah it is. Well anyway, but anyway so that's now defunct. But anyway, still I had these ideas that I should do this. But during the time that I was active in this association we had a national conference as we did each year, and I went and I honestly do not know whether it was in Buffalo or somewhere. But anyway someplace I'd never been and we were having a big luncheon and I was sitted, seated, next to one of the women who was to be a speaker whose name was Loret Miller Ruppe. And Loret Miller Ruppe was the head of the Peace Corps at that time and we were just [chatting sounds] you know just chit chatting, lady talk. And the speaker for the luncheon got up to speak and it was Father, Father Theodore Hesburgh who was the president of Notre Dame. And he essentially said he thought it was high time that higher education took on the role of training students to do volunteer work in the same way they chose to train young men and women to be part of the national service, part of the Army, Navy, Air Force, etcetera. And he said, it is just as much of a need for people to be trained to be good volunteers to head up volunteer organizations. I wish I had a copy of his speech, I never did, but that's essent--I listened to him I thought, "Oh my socks." Russ and I had talked about this ever and ever so many times since when he'd become president that one of roles he saw needed to be fulfilled, somebody needed to do something about the fact that the students who were not in the Corps, most of them at Vermont College in those days when we still owned Vermont but some of them down here in Northfield were not having the same opportunity to become leaders as the people in the Corps were. They were not being given that opportunity to do something beyond themselves, to stretch, to learn the outside world. And he said, he said "I don't know," he said, "I just don't know how to do that." And I said, "Well I don't know how do that either." 31 But when he, Father Hesburgh did, I thought, "I know how to do this. I've got this idea." And I turned to Loret Miller Ruppe and I said, "Ma'am I think Norwich could do that." She said, "Carol, Norwich would be a perfect place to do it. Do you think you can?" and I said, "I'll ask," and I said, "Please don't say anything and I'll go and call and see." So I called Russ, got him out of a meeting and I said, "Don't say anything just listen," and I said, "I need to tell Mrs. Ruppe if we're gonna try." And he said, "We will." He said, "I'll find a way, we will." Well it must have been just before a board meeting because the next time the board met they said, "If you want to try it, go ahead." Meanwhile back at Norwich we have somebody who's a vice president named Peter Smith. Do you know Peter? Who he is? He had run for Congress from Vermont. Well there's more to it than that but anyway and been defeated. No, wrong, he had become a congressman. He, I'm not sure about his career. He had either been in--no he hadn't been in Congress at that point, he had been the lieutenant governor of Vermont. And he had written a Ph.D. thesis on Vermont College which was terribly interesting for Russ to learn when he took on. He knew about Norwich when he took on the job, he didn't know. SY: Why, I wonder what his thesis was about? CT: About the fact that Vermont College had absorbed all those programs from Goddard which is about as far off block as Norwich is you know they're kinda [chuckles]. Well it was a big job to try and pull all this together, but we were giving it a go. So he said, so I called Russ and he said yes to it. The board said yes to it. Peter Smith meanwhile said, "Let me see what I can do about getting you a grant." Good thinking. He got us FIPSE grant, do you know what FIPSE? The Fed, now the Federal, no the Fund for the Improvement of Post-Secondary Education, Department of Education. If I was smart enough I could have told you the amount but I don't remember but he got us a grant to get started. Now if I had taken a salary we wouldn't have had much money left so I was, I didn't need anything. So we had some money and I made up out of whole cloth as best as I could a program that looked like ROTC training but wasn't, was focused on various on other things, which one of them was learning how to manipulate, to act in a culture that was not your own. This was one of the things and having appreciation for others, for other communities. And so it took a while to get this thing sort of organized and once I got a program sketched out I had to go before a committee of the faculty to get their approval. Can you imagine? I was a wreck, but I thought, "Okay I can do this." So I went before the committee and I made my little talk and do you know David Westerman? Oh Professor Westerman, David Westerman he's a geologist. But he's also the guy who is the head of the program at the University for Student Research. You guys really need to be aware of this. SY: Oh you know his name's been mentioned to me because he also collected some geology artifacts I think. CT: Oh I'm sure. SY: Yeah, okay. 32 CT: I think he goes to South America and brings home chips of stuff. I don't what he does. He is the most understanding, thoughtful, articulate. He's, I'm a big of David West--. David Westerman was on that committee and he said, "Well Carol, I'll tell you what, I think you've got some good ideas." He said, "You need to smooth it out a bit but I say you're a go." And he met with the rest of the committee and I said "What did they say?" "Oh sure, good, approved." And I thought, "Oh, he saved my life." I mean he just and then he was helpful in giving me some ideas. And what I'd really like to do is to, maybe another time when we get together is to get into your records, what it was the program looked like. It was a 2 year program for anyone who is not in the Corps. That's all you had to be, not in the Corps. You had to be any elsewhere. And you took classes and you did internship in the summer. And the internships were on Indian reservations. I can remember somebody went overseas on their own ticket to get into something, you know. I really have lost a lot of the details but I spent about 2 years maybe 3 working on this. And one of the big things I had to do which was very helpful was send reports into this FIPSE organization. They assigned a women, I'm sure I'll remember her name if I think of it long enough. She wanted a report from me every Friday. Well I couldn't do it. I finally got to every other Friday, you know you'd spent too much time writing the report then actually out doing something which got to be kind of old. But with their support we were able to get this thing rolling. We were able to hire former Peace Corps volunteers to act as professors. And one of them was Don Hooper. Does that mean anything to you? He lives here. Do you know Don and Alison Hooper? SY: You mentioned it to me, yeah. CT: They make the wonderful cheese, goat cheese, Chèvre. Well anyway I'm sure that somewhere I've got the list of who those people were. Then it got to the point where it had gotten too much and there was enough money left in the FIPSE pot to hire a director, which we did. And it worked reasonably well. But when my husband's time here was over and President Schneider came and things changed there was, I don't know how to put it, it just didn't work out anymore. And they had not been a big success. There hadn't been hundreds of students flocking to it. Every once and awhile you'll hear about somebody from the, from Norwich that goes into the Peace Corps. The Peace Corps itself is not what it was. It's nowhere near as near well-funded. They don't have the leadership of somebody like Loret Miller Ruppe. You know things change. But it wasn't a bad idea, it wasn't a bad idea. SY: No it's a really good idea. So because you know you can go into Peace Corps without previous training right? CT: Absolutely. SY: So this was just to create more effective Peace Corps volunteers? So it was sort of an auxiliary program to the Peace Corps training that would follow? Was it sort of like a? CT: Well no they weren't that interested in it but it was a way of encouraging people to do this kind of service, and to do it effectively. Yeah that's right. And there were people 33 that were int--there was a guy named Mike Kim and Michael Kim was one of these ones who went through it and he eventually became a priest interestingly. SY: I'm interviewing him next week. [interview pauses and resumes] SY: So what were we, what were we talking about? Oh yeah so another thing I read in your husband's oral history was that when you first got up here it must have been mud season, looking at the place you were like, "I don't know about this?" CT: Well of course I'd been up here a lot as a student. But then you're sort of rose colored glasses, you know. But the day that we drove up here to be interviewed for the job it was March at its most March-like, and as we came down the road, which was not this lovely access road we have now from 89. Oh no, twisty turny. There was a cow - did he tell you about this? There was a cow standing beside the side of the road behind a fence. Literally it was up to its udder in the mud and I thought, "Russell," I said, "We cannot live here. This is just awful." He said, "Oh for heaven's sakes. It's just one cow…" I said, and I thought to myself, "Okay, if…" I knew he wanted the job so much. He would have loved, he always hoped he could get the job to be the facilities manager here because he said, "I could love fixing it up." He said, "Never mind, we'll get a facilities manager to fix it up." He said, "Oh this is going to be so great." I thought, "Uh huh." So we came to the interview and we stayed in guest quarters where at the time where the infirmary is, not the new one the old one. And as I told somebody once long ago and I thought it was rather apt, it smelled like your grandmother's cottage after it had been shut up for the winter you know that awful musty [sniffing sound], "Oh it's getting worse here by the minute." And then Jackie and Jerry Painter who you don't know they live in Micminnville Oregon, he was the treasurer, they came and picked us up in their lovely new Buick and it made all the difference in the world. We had a wonderful, fun dinner and they had us in stitches laughing it was so friendly and nice and it was, I thought, "Okay, we can do this. This will be alright. We can clean up the guest quarters. We can do this." Then we were interviewed and I don't remember much about the interview except when we were all siting around. Nobody interviewed me much I don't think. I don't know what I did. But finally Ken Smith, who you don't know, he's dead now but and you wouldn't know. But nice, nice guy, said, "and now General Todd I see that you have no Ph.D." Russ said, "That is correct." And Ken Smith said, "and what do you intend to do about and when will you be getting your Ph.D.?" And my husband said, "I intend to do nothing and the answer is never. Any more questions? No, alright we'll move on." But Ken Smith became his dear, dear friend just a wonderful. Ken Smith could write one of those citations on a, on a, on some sort of a document or when you get an honorary degree, the citation, oh they were wonderful. His use of the English language was just gorgeous. I really loved him. He was great. But anyways so I really didn't like it much so I said, "Okay," if you get the--Oh and then we went to New York City to some lovely club I don't know where, to be interviewed by the board who was meeting there too to interview us the very same weekend because we had just come home from Europe to do this. Fortunately I had new Blylie suit so I was feeling very fine. I always bought a 34 new suit or a blouse if I was going to be in an interview and it seemed to help and I do advise that for interviews. So we went to New York and we got--and Russ was starving, you know if I'd get nervous I don't care if I ever eat. He just gets hungry and hungry. And so we went there and went into this interview and these people were all finishing their lunch and they said, "Have you had any lunch?" Russ said, "No, I haven't." And they said, "Let's get a menu for the Todds." I have no idea what I had, no idea at all. But he decided he'd have French onion soup. Can you imagine eating French onion soup? Nope. I thought, "Oh my God can you imagine so stupid to have?" well of course he managed to get the job and eat the soup at the same time. But it was, I thought, "French onion soup! Idiot!" [Laugh] So that and when we left that interview I knew it was a go. You know I knew it. They told us the next day or something but I felt really good about that. No it was longer than that. Because Russ went back to Europe and I stayed with mother because that's when Sarah was getting, our daughter was getting married about a month later so I stayed home. And George Patton called from the board meeting to tell Russ because we'd been friends for so long. And Russ was really pleased. And then he started getting ready to you know come, reading stuff. And it was a fairly in a way a hard transition because we'd left everything in the military, put it down, and we had a month off. And meanwhile I had taken a tumble somewhere and cracked my hip or something, so I was on Motrin when Motrin was brand new which was great. And we went to England, had a wonderful time in England. I had a friend who's not there now. Lived there, we spent some time and then we came home and then we came here. All pretty, we retired on one day and started here the next sort of thing. It was good. It was good. SY: Wow and then? CT: Loved the house. Was thrilled with the house on Central Street - you know where it is on top of the hill? Because my grandmother lived in a house not unlike that so I knew where the furniture was supposed to come, sort of thing. Oh I liked that house it was fun to live there. SY: And were you glad not to be moving? CT: No I don't mind moving. SY: You don't mind moving. And then clearly you've come to love Northfield and this area. CT: I know it! Oh so originally I said, "Okay now here's the deal. If they offer you this job 5 years, I will stay here 5 years because you'll have plenty of time for you to make an impression." But I said, "I don't," and he said, "Fine, should I tell them 5 years?" I said, "Tell them nothing, just know that I'm telling 5 years." You know "Okay." So after about 3 years he said, "Well now I'm going to have to tell them I'm leaving in 2 years." I said, "You're what? You're what?" I said, "No we live here." He said, "Alright we stay 5 more." I said "5 more." But I knew he was very certain from the beginning that 10 years was what he wanted to give, that he felt anything that could do he could do in 10 years. After that he was afraid he would not be effective. That was his rule to himself so I knew 35 we weren't gonna. But then we said, "Hmmm what are we going to do after that? Hmm I don't know." Let's find some land here in this area and that's how we found, a friend found this and suggested it. SY: It's beautiful. CT: Yeah. But there's another part of my career that I've never gotten to and we don't need to elaborate this, but after the Peace Corps Prep Program I started the Center for Volunteer Administration and taught volunteer administration for 2 years or 3 through Continuing Ed over at VC. SY: You did? CT: Oh yeah. I had a friend named Anne Mills who worked with me and the two of us did this and I felt good about it. I trained maybe about maybe 50 people around here. But you know the thing is they have the same problems, you know the problems don't go away. People don't write plans, they don't take it seriously. I've gotten some of the worst fundraising letters lately and it makes me, of organizations I care about! Good Beginnings - did you get a fundraiser from them? They didn't sign it! SY: I don't. I mean I'm just friends with them on Facebook. I don't get letters from them. CT: Yeah it's a wonderful organization I really think what they do is super, but all you need to do a little, pay attention. No, but way too much of that. But I, nothing that I can do, or nothing that we can do could change that except make people more aware. National Life was a big supporter, really helped, always gave us space and we had a friend who'd been an officer in National Life and she got us a couple of grants to help run that program. So but I mean and then Russ really retired retired I did that for a little bit and then I just thought, "This is just too much fun you know." And then we since '92 I can't believe we've traveled a good deal and we've been all and I was down there looking through some of the scrapbooks and there's tons of pictures of various interesting people, and had a good time. SY: Yeah, so um so was that were you getting paid for was for running the program? CT: No, no, no, no. SY: No. CT: No. SYU: I don't know why I keep asking that. It's just because I'm thinking about the arc of your life and I'm thinking about you wanting to take those couple years before you got married, and I'm just wondering if it mattered to you in that way as validation? CT: No. No. You see when Russ was first, when we were first in the Army and Russ was a lieutenant, we and during the first, even after Sarah was born we were so, they did not pay Army officers a lot of money. We were so tight to the chest and we were so careful even to this day it kills me to pay more than I think I should for a pound of bananas. We 36 just were really careful, and we, even when we had 3 children even by the time Ellen, we were still really, really watching. It wasn't until Russ made general officer really that we got enough money that I didn't have --I remember one day Russ said, "You don't have to worry anymore. You do not have to worry anymore. There's always enough money. There's always enough that you could." Well he knew I didn't have too fancy taste. I didn't want anything fantastic. But he said, "You can stop worrying." It's meant an awful lot to me. I suppose I'm worrying because my mother worried and never said anything. And I'm sure the children didn't have any idea of this, why should they? This is just a burden I bore but it was my own doing. I didn't have to. I just was like that and it's been lovely. I can remember you know lots of times when I thought, "Hmmm if I spend $25.00 for that, no I can't do that," you know, this sort of thing. SY: You were a Depression baby. CT: Yes. SY: This is what your generation did. CT: Yeah. SY: You knew that the rug could be pulled out from under you at any moment. So it makes sense. CT: Yeah, even at the point when you're in the Army you knew that. Well we never had any concern that Russ would lose his job you know. I suppose he could have done something awful but he never did. I sort of trusted him not to do that, but that's right. I never thought of it that way but that's what it is. But it wasn't, it wasn't easy. And then when we came here of course we had not only had his retirement but we had a very modest salary from the university, because for one thing the university could afford nothing else. They - Russ had said, "I think I'll just tell them that I'll work for the first 5 years for no salary." I said, "No, no, no. That's not fair. Even if it's a little we can manage on very little, but." Mary Roux, you know who is our - you know Mary Roux runs the Uniform Shop? She was our, she came to work for me the day the moving man brought us to Northfield and she stayed with us the whole time until we retired in '92. And she was our housekeep--she was supposed to be our housekeeper but of course she became a third daughter which was really great, and yeah that was really nice to have full time help that the university gave us. She did everything for us, she cooked, if I needed her to she ran errands, she did anything. SY: You hosted a lot dinner parties you needed help. Or you need your mother's cook book on how to make hot cocoa for 100. CT: I know it. But she and I cooked a lot because we couldn't afford to pay the food service to have dinner parties, so Mary and I we made apple crisp, not for 100 but I think for about 60 one time, you know. And we did a lot that--hors d'oeuvres and stuff, and I have lots of recipes of Mary's, little recipes that she found that she whip up on a Thursday and I could serve on Friday night if I had to sort of thing. She was wonderful 37 about that. And that was in the days when this University was just going on but we were determined to put up a good face you know. SY: Keep up appearances. CT: Keeping up appearances, yeah. SY: Yeah, yeah. CT: But it was, it was, it was a great life. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done it differently. I wouldn't have wanted to live in one place. I guess a regret, I suppose it's a regret although it isn't to, our 3 children live all over. They've gone their own separate ways. They're very successful kids to me. They've done what they've needed to do or wanted to do, but they're far away. I think it would be so nice to able to say, "Come over for coffee," or "You and your family come for Sunday dinner or something," and there's none of that. We make a lot of effort to talk a lot on the telephone and they're wonderfully good to us. But I can't see moving to California, I certainly don't want to walk, move to Washington, D.C. and Tom even worse he lives in Olympia, Washington which is charming. We have no connections except them there you know? We have to, our connections are here and in Massachusetts because Russ has cousins there and I have 1 cousin there, and we have our high school friends and we have new friends that we've met there that are good to us too. So this going back you know when I say I don't mind moving that's kind of a falsehood because I fuss and fume but I can do it and we do it twice a year. We move and pick up and [laughs], I left my winter coat down there this time instead of bringing it. I will need it in November here particularly since now those Todd Lecture Series people who've been told 100 times, "Please don't have anything after the first of November," November third next year, November third. And I need my winter coat. Now that sounds like a minor thing, but we've got to go back because I am not going to go to that parade in November without my winter coat and I'm not buying another one. Well I might. There you go, that's a thought. SY: You're a Depression baby you're not going to buy another one [laughs]. CT: It's true. SY: So ingrained, not gonna happen. CT: And I suppose people study Depression and of course you get into the end of it aren't you? I mean people who are much older than I am aren't around too much. SY: Yeah. CT: Yeah. SY: You're getting to be that last generation. CT: Yeah. SY: Yeah. 38 CT: But it was a hardworking generation. Think of our parents. Gosh yeah. SY: Yeah. CT: Yeah. SY: How long have we been talking? 2 hours! [laughs] This was, I was fascinated the whole time. I don't know if I have any other questions. Do you have any last thoughts?

Frank Yannacone, July 22, 2013 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Frank Yannacone. The interview was conducted on July 22, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Frank discusses his memories of life on 25th Street. ; 75p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Frank Yannacone Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 22 July 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Frank Yannacone Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 22 July 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Yannacone, Frank, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 22 July 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Frank Yannacone July 22, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Frank Yannacone. The interview was conducted on July 22, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Frank discusses his memories of life on 25th Street. LR: Okay it's July 22, 2013. We are in the home of Mr. Frank Yannacone doing an oral history about 25th street and his memories of the buildings and the his memories of the life on that street. So Mr. Yannacone thank you so much for letting us be in your home today. I'm sorry, I'm Lorrie Rands doing the interview, Melissa Johnson is here with me as well as your daughter in law. FY: Marva LR: Marva? FY: Well Yannacone LR: Yannacone, well of course. I told you when I walked in my blonde is showing. MY: That's okay LR: I'm having my day. So Mr. Yannacone I would love for you just to start—go ahead and start at the Broom Hotel and make your way up and down the street. FY: Okay the Broom Hotel. I remember it in the 1950s, it was in kind of a state of disrepair. When it was built it was supposed to have been the best between Denver and San Francisco—of course I heard the same claim for the Hotel Utah when that was built. But anyhow going west was, as I recall, Ross and Jack's Restaurant, which at that time it had a nice art deco façade and a lot of neon. The story was that Ross and Jack had a café and they got into some 1 disagreement so they put a wall down the middle and had Ross's Café and Jack's Café. It went on like that for many years and then they decided maybe that was pretty stupid so they took the wall out and put the nice façade and it was Ross and Jack's Café instead of Ross's Café and Jack's Café. Early history says that Jack Dempsey washed dishes there before he became a big time boxer. I just heard that, I don't know. Next I believe was Morris Men Shop, which was a men's Habersasher, but he was also a clearing house for Basque sheep herders. They'd come in from Elko, check—if they needed a job or looking for someone or mail drop, he was the clearing house for the Basques. Next I think that little bar on Kiesel and across the street where the Federal Building is now, on Kiesel, there was a little café, little diner. Next was Hemingway and Moser had a cigar factory there at least for a while. I can remember standing in the street watching them roll cigars and their brand had something to do with a blue whale or a blue point or something nautical. Next was Ogden Blue, a new business, just a little hole in the wall and now what, 60 years later they're still around and thriving I guess. There are a lot of assorted shops, restaurants, bars, I don't remember the rest of the block, but I remember a Hotel which was on Grant, still there. Next door was the Friendly Tavern, and Saturday nights my wife and I would go to hear the Salvation Army band play about 7:00 every Saturday night. Had a little brass band, I don't know 5/6 members and Sally's would go hit all the bars with their tambourines, collecting change. Starting in that block you had a lot of little restaurants and bars, a lot of Japanese. The whore houses were upstairs still 2 operating. I guess they operated until I don't know, close to 1960 and they— when they closed them up of course all that upstairs room turned into housing in the door to the upstairs started appearing little notices that upstairs was a private dwelling, no trespassing and as I recall there was a shooting down there. Some drunk insisted that it was a whore house and wouldn't take no for an answer and I think he got gunned down, that's my memory. I can't say for certainty, but for some reason it's in my mind. There was a little Japanese restaurant, little ma and pa place. Old wooden booths, hole in the wall, dark—somebody took us there and it had the best damn shrimp, even better than the Utah Noodle, they were great. All that block was mixed housing, bars, stores, shops, and whore houses. Down on the Lincoln end about the 3rd place from the corner there was a grocery store and a hotel upstairs. The name Howard comes into mind and as I mentioned last week I never talked to the guy, but I bought a Medal D'oro which is an Italian espresso coffee. He had it; he also had Luzianne coffee which was a chicory Cajun coffee and Sorgaum syrup. The only thing I can figure, I never asked, but the only thing that I can figure is the black population, a lot of them working on the railroad and they were on Wall Avenue. LR: Was the black population at this time allowed to come into the store or was it after? FY: Now that store, 25th street was different see, kind of. LR: I know the North side was for the whites and the south side was for the Negro population. 3 FY: No, no, no, no, no. The citizens, the residents lived on Wall, close to the railroad. Then they started moving up to Lincoln, but they were segregated. That was our ghetto misnomer of course cause I don't know where that started. A ghetto was a walled area in Europe and old Europe. Somehow or other now—we used to call them slums or something. Now they're ghettos, I don't know. Anyhow, there were a lot of Winos I mean it was kind of like skid row, 25th street. After they closed the whore houses it really went downhill. It was a pretty reasonable place, you never went out on a Saturday night without—you went to the Star Noodle or the China Temple, that ended your evening. It was quite civilized. They had—I can't remember the hotel on the corner it's gone now on the northeast corner of Wall and 25th street. MJ: Was it the Healy? FY: Might have been. I remember when they tore it down, nobody then wanted to put in sprinklers or fix it or something and they tore it down. Next door was the China Temple and next door was the Depot Drug and they had a sign out, "prescription filled." It was a regular drug store and a lot of bars. There was a time, it was before my time when you could do anything on 25th street. You could do banking, you could transact business, you could eat, buy clothing and they had hotels of course because the railroad was right there. There were—I saw it in the paper just recently, the Kokomo Club doing some repairs and they found some old artifacts. Kokomo Club was going strong when I came to Ogden, and there's a bar probably been running for geez anyhow 70/75 years, maybe longer and still going. 4 MJ: Yeah we are going to be interviewing the owners of it. FY: There was another one called I think Pagano's. Well anyhow we'll go across the street. That corner building is still there. It was a stone building and next to it were some small shops including a souvenir shop, had a big sign up, one cent postcards. You probably can remember that. That sign was there when postcards were a nickel or more. MJ: Now is this off of Wall down on that end? FY: We're coming back from Wall now. We're now on that big stone building, I don't know I don't remember what it was, could've been a bank when it was built, but it's still there. Then coming up, there were frame buildings, shops, big front windows painted red as I recall many of them, especially that one with the one cent postcards. You've got a picture somewhere I'm sure of it. MJ: That block right there, just off of Wall, we have very few pictures of. I think that first building is the Murphy Block and we've been talking to the family that owned that building, trying to get photos. FY: Well there's a picture in what did I tell ya? UtahHikes.com. Old Ogden, there's a picture from the terminal and it was taken after the hotel was torn down. But the building on the other side is still there and I imagine if you look close with a glass you can see that sign out there with the one cent. Then you came to the what did I say the name was? That hotel? LR: The Broom? No. FY: Where is that book? 5 MJ: Oh the Royal Hotel? FY: Royal! That was Weeklys'. That was where the black train people stayed. That was all segregated you know, until 64. It was the Royal Hotel and downstairs was the bar, the Porter's and Waiter's Club, which was a nightclub for all the blacks and stories about big bands coming and that's where Annabelle married Weekly. Then after he died she opened Annabelle's, which was a fried chicken place. I wasn't into fried chicken, my wife was, but I could eat her chicken and I told you the story why I could eat her chicken. She said it was cooked by Mexicans in lard, and I checked, all her cooks were Mexican and they had big, cast iron skillets and Dutch ovens and you could smell the lard if you got close to the pass out window. Then last I heard about her, she took a degree in sociology and was working for the state. Now there's a guy around town and he comes here occasionally, he's 93 years old and he's a musician and his name is Joe… MJ: Joe McQueen? FY: Eastman? No Joe, MJ: Joe McQueen? FY: McQueen. MJ: The saxophone player. FY: Yeah, he used to play there. I understand he still—he's 93 years old and he still comes up here and takes people shopping and runs errands and stuff. I never had the chance to meet him yet, but I understand he and Annabelle were coming 6 back from Wendover and he was driving, had a wreck somewhere west of Tooele and she got killed. MJ: Yeah that was— FY: Can't be too many years ago. MJ: Four years ago? Five? LR: I thought it was a while ago. MJ: No it wasn't all that long ago. MY: Yeah, I remember something about that. FY: It was fairly recent, fairly recent. MJ: It was shortly after the document that Isaac Goeckeritz did. He filmed both Joe McQueen and Annabelle and it was about a year or so after that. FY: Now, story is she was the highest price call girl in Ogden. MJ: Oh really? FY: That was the story, she was a looker. When she was young, I mean she was a looker. Now we're talking about nice—a date, civility of 25th street. We had the whore houses all the doctors were in the First Security Bank building, maybe a few across at the Eccles building, but once a month those girls would go for their physical. I knew someone who worked at one of the dress shops and there were several of them in that block from 25th to 24th. There was Clifton's, they're still around. There was Hughes, I think Mode O' Day or something. Anyhow, the girls liked when the, I mean the clerks liked when the girls went for their physicals 7 because they shopped on the way home and spent money. These sales clerks worked on a base plus commission so they were happy to see them. The ladies they walked down the street you know it was civilized; you could go down and not worry about getting shot up or something. After they closed up these places then it got tough. That's when it became skid row. There were winos and drunks, it was tough. That's what happened to that Howard Hotel or grocery store or whatever it was. It was a yellow brick building. Some wino got hallucinations one night and he was cold and lit a fire under the sink and burned the whole damn place down. Yeah there were panhandlers, it was tough. The only time you went there, you went to the China Temple or the Star Noodle. MY: That was it. FY: Okay then we get up on that corner. There was a stack yard. A stack yard's an electrical place where they got transformers and I think that's still there, I'm not sure. MJ: I'm not sure either. FY: On Lincoln, Lincoln and Wall, or Lincoln and 25th. LR: I thought that was the building, wasn't that where Rose Davies building was? FY: No that's on the other side. We're still between Wall and Lincoln. LR: Hmm I thought we were on Lincoln now. MJ: So right on the corner there of Lincoln? 8 FY: There was I think a stack yard. Maybe on the wrong block, but it's a stack yard. I call it a stack yard, it's a place where the power company has transformers and wires coming in and going out. A substation I guess they call them. LR: There's one I seem to recall when we were at that Karen's Café. There was something behind it that reminded me of a substation so maybe that's it. FY: Well see I haven't been down that part of town—I've been here a year and haven't been down there. I figure it's not interesting anymore. LR: It actually is, it might be worth your while to go down and look at it again. FY: Well I hear they got a lot of overpriced restaurants. MJ: Yeah there's a few of those. FY: A lot of glitz and stuff like that and I don't walk well. It's of no historical interest to me anymore. Okay let's cross the street and go to El Boracho. MY: My class wanted to have our picture taken in front of it, but the nuns at St. Joseph's High School didn't think that would be good. LR: I can't imagine why. FY: Now across the street where the El Boracho is now I understand there was a restaurant called Patricia's or something or Poncho's, Mexican, Mexican place. My sister was over visiting from Cheyenne and she was going to take the bus back. I don't remember, hell I think that was the only—by then that was the only way to go back. I think the trains had quit running. Anyhow she wanted some authentic Mexican food and we took her in there. The food was delicious and I 9 don't think she enjoyed a bite because she was worried about if it was safe to be in there. MY: I could see Betty doing that. FY: Anyhow, the Rose Rooms were on top of El Boracho and I worked with a young fellow at the packing house. There was a garage across Ogden Avenue from the Hotel Ben Lomond and it was a parking garage, typical downtown parking garage that they had in those days. Hotel guests parked their cars there and business people, dropped their cars off for oil changes, there was no 15 minute Jiffy Lube back then. Anyhow he had a part time job while he was in high school and Rose had a big four door Sedan, I can't remember. He described, would tell us about it and she'd call—she'd want her car to go for a drive. He would have to deliver it, he was the gopher. He'd park the car and then he'd go upstairs and have to go back in the kitchen to give her the keys and usually he said some of the girls were in there having coffee and talking. It was afternoon, slow time of day I guess and he can remember hustling them. He could also remember they'd laugh at him you know, just a kid. He kept talking about it when he was older and I guess hey that was an experience. I worked with another guy whose aunt and uncle owned the Montana Hotel, next door which was a three story building. He spent a summer or so with them one time. He would talk about in the summer he'd go up on the third floor up on the roof and look over at the second floor roof next door and watch the girls sunbathing. Hey that's pretty thrilling stuff for high school kids I tell ya. MY: They didn't have the internet. 10 FY: Then it came up the street there to the Star Noodle. Now the Star Noodle—that fellow I don't remember his name, but I used to know it. He built Dai Enkotai out there on Highway 89, out in South Ogden. Dai Enkotai, Wayside Inn is the translation. When he built that there was no water up there on that part of the bench. 500 bucks would buy you an acre of land—I even had 500 bucks. He would go up there with his pickup loaded with 50 gallon drums and hand water all that planting he did. Last I saw it I was out there geez I don't know, 20/30 years ago had dinner there and everything has mature and I don't know if you've ever been in. It's a Japanese Tea House, you know the nice roof and the shoji doors, shoji doors you know are the wood and parchment, beautiful place. Anyhow he's planted all that stuff, everyone thought he was nuts. Then they built I think a Rockport dam and suddenly there was water, you couldn't buy 500 dollar an acre anymore. The place started booming. Anyhow I understand that sign is somewhere around. MJ: The Star Noodle? Yeah, the last I heard about it the city is holding onto it because they want it preserved and they want it actually put back up on the building as kind of a historic piece. FY: I'll tell you how that works. Up in Rexburg there was a theatre built in 1932 or 3. It was art deco. A big neon sign outside, and the company who owned that decided to abandon it and they built these stadium theatres. Somehow the city caught wind of it, they were dismantling everything, and the city was able to buy it. The stipulation, you can't show movies in there. Anyhow it took 10 or 15 years—we had an enlightened councilman up there. There was a problem with parking on 11 the main street and he says instead of the city spending money trying to restore that, let's tear it down and build a parking lot. Typical American thinking, it's 50 years old, get rid of it. Anyhow between the college, which did a lot of the engineering and design work free and a lot of student help and volunteers, they restored that building and they rebuilt the marquee. All neon and arrows and beautiful things. The only difference now instead of posting letters it's digital. It's on all day and most of the night, well until midnight every day. They post the weather and civic happenings and announcements like that, beautiful. Could've been lost you know? LR: So can you see them doing that with the Star Noodle, with that property? FY: I can see them with the sign yeah and the façade. MJ: I think that's the goal. Right now the building is empty and the owner is—the city has told him that he has to restore it. He can't tear it down, he has to restore it so he's working on that and right now the city is holding onto the sign for safe keeping so it will get restored. FY: See when they built the—in Salt Lake City, I can't remember, what was the shopping mall they built right across from the temple? LR: Crosswords, Crosswords Mall. MJ: Yeah FY: Then they went across the street and rebuilt the ZCMI block. That façade is the original, the old cast iron and they've done that in a lot of places. The inside, god only know what it is, but the outside is still there. Yeah they can do that with the 12 Star Noodle. Then up from that there were some assorted businesses, bars, I can't remember until you hit the Greyhound Terminal and I remember when they built that. I don't know what was there, but I remember when they built that. I think, and I'm not sure there, because reminds me of an art deco building, you know with that curved front. I can't be sure and next door was the big old home, the Elks Lodge. See the bakery, the bakery bought that—now if you're on Lincoln Avenue going south from El Boracho there was a red brick two story apartment building there. Had 6 or 8 apartments in there and I knew a guy, he was a colored fellow, worked with him. Lacey Jones and I can't remember his wife's name, but she was quite a character. Anyhow Lacey lived there and I remember when he bought it, now that's part of the bakery property too. Had to be in the 70s, it was still there, an apartment house. MJ: The Elks Lodge you mean? FY: No behind El Boracho. Then of course you went up 25th street to the Ben Lomond and that corner office used to be a Union Pacific Ticket office, so you didn't have to go to the depot. In those days you had 64 trains a day come through Ogden, you could've gone anywhere. Then the numbnuts guys, typical, what did they do? They went in and tore down all that cast iron canopies except for one. Filled in the subway, now they want to restore it and got no money. It was there! LR: So you're not an Ogden native? FY: No I came here in 1950. 13 LR: You're originally from? FY: Pennsylvania. LR: What brought you to Ogden, your job? FY: Work, yeah. I came out to school, married and then came to work for Swift. I worked there until they closed. There's another—the viaduct, used to walk across the viaduct, it was old and wooden. See you people wouldn't remember it because they rebuilt it before you were probably even alive. MY: It seems like there wasn't the one that's there now that I remember. FY: Well then you remember the old one. MY: I remember the old one. FY: You're older than these gals, yeah. It was iron with framed deco. It was 2 by, I don't know, 2 inch lumber on edge with black top on it. You walked up and then when you got across the yard before you hit the river there was a stairway, and I walked it many times like all other people to go to work. You'd walk down and it'd dump you off right there where there was a ramp that went down and the stairs took you down under the ramp right there to the packing house. West Ogden was Bertagnoli's Motel, Mountain View Motel, I think it was Bertagnoli. Used to be a motel, course we had stock shows and stock yards and Ogden was a booming town. Anyhow I noticed it's now an apartment, Mountain View apartments, but its story was he made his money as a bootlegger and then built the motel. They had the big stock shows, my father-in-law worked for, as a young fellow, he worked for Covey of Covey Bagley and Dayton, sheep people, 14 and the old man he's the one that built Little American over by Granger, I met him. My father-in-law came down from Logan to go to the stock show and we went down there one time and it's in November, cold weather you know. I don't know if you've ever been to a stock show, but they have the pavilion and they give parts of it to different exhibitors and they use straw or hay to kind of fence it off. There's no heat and we went down and that's the year I won a little leather suitcase from Read Brothers, when they were still on 24th street in the leather business. We had had a judging contest and they called me at home, you know you went in and gave your name and phone number. They called says you won the prize for the judging and I had that suitcase for years. Then somebody spilled something in it and I gave it to the DI. I wish I hadn't cause it had their plate on it you know. Anyhow we're walking down through there and you can see they all have big banners these places and you could see Covey Bagley and Dayton Herefords. We're walking down the aisle and my father-in-law says, "My god there's Anson," or Anselm, Ansom, A-N- I think S-C-L-M, or A-N-S-C-M, anyhow that was his name, Covey. Here's this old guy in a black overcoat and gray hair sitting on a bale of hay and we walked up to him and he got up and he says, "By god Tommy how the hell are you?" It had to have been WWI when he quit so it had to be like 40 or 50 years and he still remembered him. I thought that was just great. There's a guy see I wished I had recorded, there were real tape recorders when he was living. After his wife died he moved in with his son and he would tell stories about herding sheep out of Cokeville, Wyoming. There were so many 15 sheep and he said there were so many sage hens and in the spring when they started moving the sheep the ground would be yellow from sage hen eggs that the sheep trampled. Now you know they're endangered. MY: I've never heard of a sage hen. FY: Sage hen is a quail, some kind of a quail. There's a half a dozen kind of them. MY: They're cute FY: Anyhow you went up 25th street and I don't remember what was there before they built the Ramada Inn, but the Ramada Inn. God that had to be around 1970. MY: Yeah I'm trying to think what was there and I can't remember either. The church, I'd go to the church there FY: Then across the street was a church and they sold it and it was the American Legion Hall for many years. I don't know what it is now. MY: It used to be Kamikaze's. MJ: Yeah, it still is. FY: Oh, a club? MY: It's a bar. MJ: Yeah. MY: Then a Presbyterian church. FY: Then across the street you had Larkin's Mortuary and wasn't that the street where they had the White, the dance hall? 16 MY: That was on 25th and Adams. LR: White City. FY: White City, yeah. MY: Cool place, I remember. FY: Hell that was a big dance hall. It had a roof like the Salt Lake Tabernacle. Big dance hall and they tore that down. You had the Berthana and the White City LR: They were happening spots back in the day. MY: We used to roller-skate at the Berthana up into the 70s. LR: They were happening spots back in the day. They were the place to go. FY: They were dance halls. The Berthana then became a roller rink, but that White City was a dance hall. Yeah it had live music and bands and everybody danced and then you came down the hill. First was Jimmie's Floral, later years you had a little restaurant there called the Canton Low, next to it was a Beauty Shop Supply and next was—Kathy Faunce had a dress top shop, what the hell did she call that? Some fancy name, and then on the corner was Farr's Jewelry. The Canton on the base, on the first floor of the old Masonic Temple on, across from the courthouse. On the main floor was a Chinese restaurant called the Canton. The guy that owned that, and I think Rose who owned half of the Canton Low a little later, she was maybe his wife or his partner. Anyhow it was a big Chinese restaurant and he was going home one night and on the corner there of Adams and 25th there was a wreck, he got hit or whatever. No seatbelts in those days, he ran his car into the curb in front of St. Joe's church, got thrown 17 out, hit his head on the curb and got killed. That was the end of the Canton Café, now I don't recall the sequence of when the Canton closed and the other little place opened, but you had the Ben Lomond Hotel and Royal Shoe Store was next door. Guy sold Red Wings. I bought a pair, 5 bucks. LR: A pair of Red Wings for 5 bucks. FY: 6 inch shoes made in the USA of course, and a guy named Saccamano was his name. Oh and then you had the Orpheum, the Orpheum theater. You know how these theatres had long entries and businesses. Dokas's Greek Restaurant, it was just a lunch counter. It wasn't fancy, but it was Dokas's restaurant and candy store, hand dipped chocolates. You could get a blue plate lunch in there for like 45 cents or something. Then they moved down on Grant, somewhere between I think 24th and 23rd and they still had the candy. They were a wholesaler for tobacco and cigarettes and sundress. God that was a heyday. LR: You mentioned last time about the Bamberger that ran up 25th street. FY: It's in that book, the Bamberger was the interurban. When I grew up they were called Interurban Railroads. They were trolley cars and they went 60/70 miles an hour and I mean they were electric trains, but they were actually high powered trolley cars. You had them between cities and the Bamberger, okay let's go back. Bamberger was the first—he was a Jewish business man. He was a governor I think the only Jewish governor in the state of Utah. He had this railroad between Ogden and Salt Lake, well he started it. He started Lagoon cause he got to Lagoon and they couldn't go further so he started Lagoon and he 18 made some money and then he was able to finish down into Salt Lake. Their terminal, they came in from Logan. I think that was the U & I Railroad. Those railroads would go right down the main street and you could've gone from Franklin to Ogden to Salt Lake, I don't recall past that. They came in on Lincoln, had railroad tracks on Lincoln cause Becker's Brewery was on Lincoln about 21st street. The old Becker Mansion was across on the east side of Lincoln and beautiful old building with columns, sure you got pictures. I was disappointed after coming back after 25 years. Utah still has that 3.2 law. Becker was making 3.2 beer, but he had a place up in Evanston called the Uintah Club beer where he made full strength beer. Every brewery has a bar, bar room. I don't remember what year it was, but they put radios in the switch engines. Now Ogden was big you know, big yards and lots of traffic. Lots of switch engines and they put in radios and they just almost had a riot with the railroad employees because at any given time just about you could find a switch engine parked by the brewery. They'd take turns going up there to have a cool beer, free on the house of course. Then they'd put radios and that kind of put the kibosh, cause they couldn't hide out anymore. The Bamberger came in, you could—see one story leads to another. My wife during the war lived in Logan and her mother played the piano. Rachel could play the piano from 9 years old she was playing in dance bands, bought her own piano. Well in Brigham City at Bushnell Hospital they used to take—my wife and her mother would take the train, the Bamberger over the mountain to Brigham City. She'd entertain, my wife would sing and they'd entertain these guys who 19 were all shot up and god only knows. Anyhow you could take the train all the way to Salt Lake and when it came to Ogden the depot was behind the old post office, 24th street. You'd go north, Pete Vlahos bought that for his office, but then next there was a knitting mill there. Was it Ogden Knitting Mill? MY: Oh yeah. FY: Then the city bought that, the city school district bought that a part of that building or there's a space there. That was the terminal for the Bamberger. They'd come down Lincoln and swing in and unload and then start out. You had a Y right there on Lincoln just north of 24th street. They'd come in then back out and go to Salt Lake. They stayed on Lincoln until St. Joe's School was what? 28th? 29th? MY: Between 27th and 28th on Lincoln. FY: Now did the trolley run past St. Joes? MY: I'm trying to think if there were tracks down that way and I don't think there were. FY: Anyway somewhere down there they cut across, the cut across the Weber River where you take the 31st freeway. Somewhere in that freeway now is where they used to cross the thing and go down and ended up in Hill field. See most of that right away is under I-15, but that interchange on 31st by the freeway coming down from the airport, that was city dump. On the west side of the river was the city dump. MY: Cause there wasn't anything else out there. FY: No, nothing. Oh just sand hills and that was the city dump. 20 LR: So do you recall when the Bamberger stopped running? I wonder if that affected, if that was as big of an impact as when the trains stopped coming in. FY: Well no because see back, during WWII there was about 130 million people in this country. Now you got 330 million, not everybody had a telephone, not everybody had a car. Gas was 15 cents and a car was 500 bucks during the depression. Who the hell had 500 bucks? By the time the Bamberger quit freeways started, Eisenhower started that in the 50s and in the 60s you had pieces of it between here and Salt Lake. Transportation I don't think, was that big a problem because you had Trailways and you had Greyhound, but more people had cars in the 50s. Hell almost everybody had a car. See that puts a different light on it. When Bamberger started, that was in the depression days, public transportation had trolley cars in Ogden. My father-in-law drove a trolley car in Ogden and the yard was—I can remember when they started building houses in there. 27th or 28th above Adams under the hill there was about a half a block or maybe a little more was kind of flat. That was the yards for the trolley cars. They ran up and down Washington Boulevard and when I came to Ogden they had bus service, but there was a big strike. But they had buses running up and down Washington and I think they had one would go up to Harrison and another one would go to West Ogden. It was pretty rudimentary, but people used the bus. Hell I used the bus and Ogden then was like 40,000 people. You had—Wilson Lane was out in the country, but you had Pete's Café which is still there. You had I think taxi service then, but it was pretty limited. Then the trains quit see—I don't 21 know about 67 or 8—those railroads really went at it with a vengeance. Passenger service cost them money, they couldn't make money on people, service got bad. I'll tell you a little story about my mother. She liked taking the trains and she'd stop in Cheyenne to see my sister and then she'd take the train over to see me and then she had an old childhood chum living in California, Colusa, California. She would call from my house to talk to this lady and set up. They'd pick up my mother in Sacramento and she would ride the bus. She liked the bus cause it took you downtown and she liked the trains cause you went into town and you saw the backyards. I enjoyed the trains too for that reason. Anyhow my sister, I had a niece that died and she was nine. The only way my mother could get to the funeral from Pennsylvania to Cheyenne was fly. She was petrified, but she had to do it. After the funeral she came over and visited for a while and she said—now this was, god this had to be in early 60s I guess. Anyhow she said she was on the, at the airport, and she said people would take her by the arm and call her by name and say, "Now you come on, you stand here and if we can get you on this flight," she was flying stand by. She said, "Now you stand here and if there's a place on this plane you know we'll get you on there and if not we'll see about the next flight." She said everybody was so nice, they were friendly. She said every time somebody did that at the airport I thought about the conductors on the trains. "Are we on time," and they'd snarl at ya. 22 "When's the dining car open," and they'd snarl at ya. She started flying after that. She gave up on the railroad. I took a train in 1964 where I had to go through four cars to find a car where I could plug in an electric razor they were that decrepit. Plugged them in and nothing happened. LR: So it's not surprising that they just, it became— FY: I mean they were deliberately doing that. See of course what happened, coincidental with all that was the US Post Office started air mailing mail instead of using the railway mail cars. LR: That was one of the huge reasons why they stopped. FY: Well they had revenue see and the passengers they would put up with, but when the post office cut them out they figured hell these people are costing us money and they went after them. That mail was all sorted by hand and they ran regular runs. I left a message for Charles Trentelman, I didn't leave it in his voicemail because I got somebody at a gift shop. Got a voicemail at the gift shop at the depot and I said, "Tell Trentelman that there's a fellow working at the Ogden post office who started out as a railway mail clerk." So there's still some guy, and when I heard the guy said he's old he must be at least 70. Well yeah he would be. So the Bamberger I don't know when they quit, but they were probably losing money and glad they quit. LR: Something else you mentioned last time that I found fascinating was talking about drinking coffee with Marshall White. I can't remember the whole story anymore, but you talked about drinking coffee with Marshall White. 23 FY: Yeah he came to my house one day and we were visiting about something or other, I don't recall, but we had coffee. You know he was— LR: A decent fellow? FY: See we talked about, I told you about that story about being in the China Temple. LR: You said it was your one regret. FY: See in the context of time—at the time there was two of us. We had an early thing going at the packing house and this guy came in from Portland and I picked him up at the Ben Lomond and said, "Let's stop and have some breakfast." The only place open at 4:00 in the morning was the China Temple. We went in there and sat down and while we were waiting for our order these three colored fellows came in and sat down at the end of the counter, way down by the kitchen. The guy comes out and tells them we can't' serve you and they left. I didn't pay any attention and I told Lorrie my regret was that I didn't walk out, but at the time didn't think anything of it. It didn't take me, only like a couple hours or next day or something I got thinking, "Geez there I sit—some Chinese guy telling a black guy he can't serve him. MY: But it was the time. FY: You heard me talk about Lacey Jones you know, when your boy died who was there? Lacey MY: I have pictures of him holding Tommy. He came to—Tommy was probably a month old and I have— FY: What was her name? 24 MY: I know, ever since you said his name, Lacy and anyway, I have pictures of him in my living room holding my baby. Beautiful pictures. LR: When was this? MY: Oh, 1982. FY: My kids were raised—my wife, I'll tell you she had an occasion, I'm not going to go into much detail, but she had an occasion to be in a position where she was catering to the public. Couple of colored folks came in and sat down and my wife was—hey I can tell you she can attest to this—we're walking down Washington Boulevard and we're standing in front of Froerer Place on 26th for real estate, 26th and? MY: Washington. FY: Washington. I said, "Wait a minute I got to go in and talk to Fred about something," and when I come out she's visiting with some woman on the sidewalk. The lady left and I said, "Who was that?" She says, "I don't know." I could hear so I asked, "Well what was she telling you about her son-in-law or something?" She says, "I don't know, she just came up and started talking." Anyhow wife's very pleasant to these people and somebody said you're a nigger lover. She got the guy by the shoulder and threw him out. MY: I was surprised that's all she did. 25 FY: So see my kids were raised, we had no animus. That's why it bothered me later when I—hey that's, god that's 60 years ago nearly. LR: And it still bothers you? FY: And it bothers me. MY: I can see that. FY: See and then when I heard about Marshall White. They're chasing some kid, got out of reform school and they chased him into this house and the kid comes up out of the basement with a gun and shoots the guy right at the top of the stairs. MY: Well remember when the hi-fi shop thing all happened and you made Robert go pick Lacey up. LR: Now was that on 25th street? FY: No that was on? MY: About 23rd and Washington, but it was right next to Karamel Korn. My husband was working with his dad and this Lacey Jones we've been talking about, he worked there and because of the hi-fi shop thing and the blacks and stuff. Frank was afraid for Lacey because you know some people just— FY: What was her name? Camilia? Camilla? MY: I'm trying to think of Robert saying it. Lacey and. FY: She was quite the character. MY: They were great people. 26 FY: Well you know life, I look at it differently than when I was her age. When I was 18, a boy. MY: Well and there again I think it's the time. My dad grew up in the South. I was raised with a little different perspective, but I never understood why my dad was prejudice. I didn't get it. I'm like why? I don't get it. I still don't understand it, why? Just because somebody has different colored skin. I see it with my grandchildren. In fact my little grandson he'll be telling me about a friend or something and he'll say he's brown, but you know there's no ethnic type, he's black, he's Mexican, he's this. So is your mother when she's out in the sun. FY: We lived in Hawaii for a couple of years and favorite story, oh that picture there. I found your husband's face in there. MY: Oh did you find him? Cause he's the only little haole. FY: As a matter of fact we had Japanese neighbors. See this country is becoming like Hawaii, there's no majority. See even back when we were there whites were not a majority. Had some neighbor kids, my kids were like 7 or 8, 6 or 7, somewhere around there. They're watching a war movie on television and my wife told me this story. I don't remember what the movie was, but Robert can tell you. He's probably seen it a million times. Anyhow it was a Japanese soldier sneaking up on this American GI and one of the little Japanese neighbor boy says watch out for that Jap! That's become a family story because that's the way it was. The kids, my kids were raised and her kids I'm sure raised that's—but back 60 years ago it was different. 27 Now I went to school with black kids, back then we called them Negros or colored. I can remember I spent a summer—I was in New York 1945—I was in Time Square on VJ Day. I was in that mass of about a million people, never forget it. I used to take a train 2:00 in the morning through Harlem. I'd be the only white guy, but there was nobody on the train, only half a dozen people on the whole damn three car train. Going through Harlem never had any fears. I Went to school with folks from hell, all over. Now coming from the South I worked with a guy in Idaho, turned out good friends, he's dead now. Jimmy Mitchell was born in Nashville and I didn't find that out until several years after I knew him. I never heard the N word more than I did in Rexburg. In the first month I heard probably more than in my whole life before that. I told him I don't like it and he was good enough that he watched his tongue when he was around me and hopefully he improved on it with other people. He was born in Nashville, he came to Idaho as a boy, but his dad, for like all the time Jimmy was growing up until he got married, every summer they'd go back to Nashville. Second nature with him, like your dad. MY: It has to do with where you grow up. My mother grew up in Colorado. Her and her friend were the only white girls in their class, most of them were Mexican. So my mom was more open to you know, culture. FY: Pass that picture over LR: So moving on to a little more happy things, I was wondering if you had any more stories about 25th street you'd like to share? Cause I mean you've done a good job and you've been talking for almost two hours. 28 FY: I have? LR: I don't know if you realize that. FY: No, but I get wound up. See we've digressed. LR: And that's okay. So I was just wondering if you had any other stories or memories of 25th street you'd like to share? FY: Well I told you about my wife and the egg foo yung. LR: When she was pregnant? FY: Now those were the days when they made real egg foo yung, not this crap they're making now. It's like some kind of a mush. MY: I don't know what it is FY: Anyway I was telling Lorrie, many a morning at 1 or 2:00, the only place open, go to the China Temple. I'd take a sauce pan cause you didn't have takeout boxes like you do now. I'd go get egg foo yung. Well my kid was like I don't know a year old, just starting to talk, I don't know how old they are when they start. Anyhow I had some business at the Greyhound Depot where they had the bus. The buses used to have express and I had some business there and I parked and it was diagonal parking. She was there in the front seat with the kid and I said, "I'll be right out." When I come out she's laughing. Now she could laugh, she turned me the wrong way on a one way street once and a cop pulled me over MY: All she could do was laugh. 29 FY: All she could do. All I could say, "She told me to turn," that's another family story. She knows what's coming. Well anyhow I come out and she's laughing and I said, "What happened?" She said, "See that Chinese fellow going by?" "The Chinese guy?" "Yeah. Well when he went by he said dada." Anyhow now you've heard the story of my life maybe. I don't know about 25th street, spent many a night down there after partying I can tell you that. Sober up at the China Temple. LR: That seemed to be the, well it was always open so that was the spot. FY: Well I can tell you about 24th street. MJ: What was on 24th street? FY: Well I'll tell you about getting from 25th to 24th. On Lincoln, 25th and Lincoln, there's a hotel, used to be a stop on the Bamberger. They had a sign up, but in there Harry the Tailor had a tailor shop in one of those little stores. Harry was from Armenia or some Middle Eastern country and he was a hell of a good, old bachelor. He had a barber shop, I mean a tailor shop. Anyhow we'd go up to Grant and you went past the hotel and in the middle of the block was Johnny Marsh's, the bug man, he was a pest control guy. John Marsh, and he had a sign, bughouse with a caterpillar on the top. I wonder what ever happened to that sign. Wonder if someone has it in their basement or out in a barn? 30 Then there seems to me like there was a big green building, concrete or masonry or something. Was like a wholesale, it was a pale green. Anyhow there was also a place in there, we all thought it was the Chinese lottery. It was a store front and they had like teller windows in there. It was Chinese and I don't know, might have been some kind of a thrift club or business. We all thought it was a Chinese lottery where you went in, but every time I went by the door was open, but I never saw anyone in there. That was the story that it was a Chinese lottery. Over on 24th street and there's an empty lot now next to the Berthana, used to be the Dinner Horn, was a grocery store. Then going west there was a gas station and when that folded it turned into a locksmith and Lester Pelton learned his business. MY: Wasn't it Vicks? FY: Was it Vicks? MY: I think it was Vicks. FY: It was a—they had a locksmith in there and this kid we know learned his trade in there. Next was the Grant Hotel and Grant Tap Room. Japanese, lot of Japanese in there. Then next was Minnie, don't know her last name, she was a barber. She came and interned during the war and she was a Buddhist. She played a mean poker game and she made a mean stir fry. She used to invite us out to the Buddhist festival every year. Next was Sakarada Fish Market. Then there was HJ Bonnie, turkey broker, and he raised turkeys. Now in those days where Wal-Mart is on 21st, 20th, there was a turkey processor there. Bonnie had an interest in that or maybe it was his. Then they turned it into a cold storage and then tore it down 31 for Wal-Mart. Then there was Richard's Sheet Metal—had apartments. We had one and the reason we had one well we had a little dog, little Corgi. Familiar with a Corgi? LR: No. FY: Queen Elizabeth raises Corgies, little. That nice place on 24th and Monroe that's supposed to be a Frank Lloyd Wright house, that was an apartment house. They wouldn't rent us an apartment cause we had a little dog. We lived at Richard's until we could find a place and parked in the back 50 bucks a month, everything but lights. Hot water, heat. LR: Wow, all for 50 bucks a month. FY: Then across the street the motel is still there. Now they call it the Westward Ho or something. Down on the corner where the old shaver mart is, Bob Hinds, H-I-N- D-S had a Conoco Station. Next to Richard's there was a lumber yard, don't remember the name, but I think it began with a B. MY: Burton, was it Burton's? FY: Could be. MY: Burton had a lumber place. FY: I can't remember what was next down to the corner. But Crittenden Paint still there, that building's still there. That restaurant I guess that's been a restaurant for a million years. Then you came up 24th street you had the Dinner Horn, you had the Berthana, there was a bar in there. MY: The Lighthouse Lounge. 32 FY: That was it, The Lighthouse huh? Okay. Good timing for your visit here. Then you hit Kiesel and the Kiesel Building, there were two dentists in there. I knew—I mean there might have been more but there were two dentists and they would cover each other. So I knew both, one was Reuben Clark who was kind of a milk toast type guy. You know milktoast? Well see years ago there was a comic strip called Milquetoast, also at that time was Maggie and Jiggs and the Toonerville Trolley, see that dates me. What you gals got to do is start looking up some of this stuff because Toonerville Trolley had a guy on there, they called it Terrible Temper Mr. Bang and he was always mad. I have a son who we referred to occasionally as "Terrible Temper Mr. Bang," cause he can talk himself into a mad and we'd say, "Terrible Temper Mr. Bang," he has no idea what we are talking about. Anyhow the other guy was something Turner. Anyhow he used to be an engineer and then decided he wanted to be a dentist and as much as Reuben Clark was a milktoast he was the macho. I mean he'd cuss a blue streak if he had to, you know, something went wrong. He told a story once about—he was hunting and he'd go working up this sidehill and he gets to the top, and there's some guy there laying on the ground and looking over at things. He says, "I told him that was a hell of a climb." He says, "Yeah, I noticed you had a little bit of a problem here and there. I had you in my scope all the time." He said, "You had me in your scope?" "Yeah," he said. 33 "Is that gun loaded?" He says, "Yeah," He said, "I beat the crap out of him." That's the kind— LR: Well I can understand that. FY: Reuben Clark to quote my wife, "he wouldn't say it if he had a mouthful." Then across the street was the Finer Foods Café and next to it was the Finer Tap Room. If you went down the café, they were narrow. They went down toward the kitchen, there was a door that took you into the Tap Room. Then at the Eccles Building up on the corner was a Walgreen's. MY: Cause the door you went in on the corner. FY: See Walgreen's. MY: They had a little lunch counter. LR: Is this on Grant then? FY: Well every drug store had a counter. MY: No it'd be on Washington. FY: Washington, under the Eccles Building. There's a hotel there now. Walgreen's always had a corner. They had a place across from that Crossroads Mall. First night in Salt Lake I had a cup of coffee right across the street from the temple. I flew out, stewardess is telling me all about the Salt Lake and the Mormons and they don't drink and they don't smoke. I spent the night in Salt Lake so I'd catch the bus the next day to Logan cause I was going to school up there. I walk 34 around, first thing I stay at that little hotel, it's on South Temple between Main and State and it's still there. Just little cozy, I don't know 8 or 10 rooms, it's probably a fancy apartment house now. Anyhow I walked in, walked around, typical Walgreen's. They sold cigarettes and cigars and pipe tobacco and coffee and they had a lunch counter and people sitting there smoking and drinking coffee. Then I walked around and ran into two cigar stores within a couple of blocks and I'm wondering what is she talking about? Anyhow I had her phone number and I called her. Tried to set up a date. MJ: No luck? FY: No, you know why? I wasn't Mormon. Well I sort of learned how it worked. It took me a while, but anyhow that was my introduction to Utah. It was a DC 3 and one of the two roughest places to fly in the country is Denver to Salt Lake and the other one is from Washington D.C. somewhere over the Appalachians I can't remember. Anyhow D.C. 3 21 passengers, it was full, served us a nice meal and then we hit the turbulence. The stewardess comes by, got plenty of food if you want it. God I could smell this puke. God that was a rough trip. MY: Now what did you start up at? FY: 46. So anyhow let's see we were on 24th street. You had the First Security Bank and across the street was W.T. Grant, pink sandstone, a red sandstone. My father-in-law helped build that and he said they poured concrete with wheelbarrows and they went up wheelbarrow at a time. Then that became ZCMI. 35 LR: There was a ZCMI in Ogden? MY: Right where the Weber place is. FY: They had a walkway over to the mall over Nordstrom's. LR: When was the ZCMI in Ogden? FY: Well I'm looking at that Ogden Hikes thing and the J.C. Penney building was ZCMI and then they, I guess shut down and left. Then came back after W.T. Grant. See 24th, Washington Boulevard between 25th and 24th street you had— MY: L.R. Samuel's. FY: Aurbach's. MY: Well L.R. Samuels to begin with. FY: Yeah, then Aurbach's. MY: Then Freddy Aurbach married the Samuels girl. FY: Then you had there was a men's store next to the— MY: Fred M. Nye? FY: No I'm talking on the west side. There was—I got a suit hanging in the closet I think came from them. Next to the bank, next between the bank and the Egyptian or the other side of the Egyptian, anyhow you had Keeley's Restaurant. MY: Smalley's Jewelry was right by the bank. FY: The men's store was probably on the north side of the bank. Anyhow you had restaurants and on the other side you had Nye's and when they closed I think 36 that's when Buehler Dunn, and Branz opened. You had Blocks in there, Blocks was an Idaho, small Idaho chain. Very upscale and kind of a department store, mostly men. Then when you went over to J.C. Penney you had Payless Drug and you could get in from Kiesel. Then you had in a row you had Newberry's, Woolworth and Grant, no W.T. Grant was across the street. Woolworth, Kresge three 5 and dimes, then there were assorted businesses. MY: Skagg's was downtown. FY: Well that was Payless. Ensign Drug was along in there. Every drug store had a lunch counter. MJ: Oh we are just about, the battery is just about out. FY: You want to plug in? MJ: Yeah. FY: There's a plug in. Marva, MY: Is it in the bedroom? FY: Yeah, one in the bedroom there. MJ: Most of the time I just plug it in automatically, but I thought we'd be okay with the battery cause it was just charged. FY: Then you went down the end of the block was Sear's. They had on the Kiesel Avenue side an auto, 3 bay auto. They changed oil and stuff like that. They moved and that was the end of the downtown. Cross from Sear's you had Firestone, had a big store, I think it's a bank now. 37 MY: It's Zion's Bank. FY: Then across the street was Reliable Furniture. Was it Reliable? MY: There was a Reliable. You know who owned Reliable? Herscowitz, Sam Herscowitz because my mom worked for his wife when he and his brother owned Reliable Furniture. FY: Well it became then Wolfe Sporting Goods and next to the Firestone store that would be on the east side between 23rd and 24th coming south, was Madsen Furniture. That dinet set came from Madsen Furniture when we were living up on Binford. My kids were in high school, that has to be over 40 years and I refuse to buy a new one. My sister has for years said, "Why don't you know it's wearing out." She insisted my mother buy a new coat and she died. She insisted her husband buy a new suit, he says no way Jose. He said, "Looked what happened to your mother," and that's why I won't buy a new dinette, cause the odds—the longer I wait the odds get better, but yeah that was Madsen Furniture. MY: Sav On was down there, Sav On Sporting Goods. FY: Well on 24th now, let's go. MY: But it was between 22nd and 23rd. FY: Let's go down 24th street now from W. T. Grant, cross the street J. C. Penney. Next door was I think Klenke, K-L-E-N-K-E Hardware. MJ: Were they connected to Klenke Floral? FY: I don't know. 38 MY: I have no idea. FY: But this old guy and his daughter ran that store. I think when they wrecked that they probably destroyed it. What a store, they had a ladder on a truck. Bins all the way to the ceiling and if you went in there for like a number 10 flathead screw they—everything came bulk in those days. If you went in and asked for whatever, they could go get it and they knew where it was, they'd move the ladder, climb up, open the drawer. Great. Then there was a Haberdasher open on the corner later. Can't remember his name, but then cross the street was Read Brothers, big place, but with a horse on top. Now I'm going to tell you, I don't know if you know about the horse. Some guy one night climbed up there somehow painted that black horse brown. That horse was black, it was patterned or supposed to have been a replica of a famous Ogden horse called Old Nig. Does that tell you anything? It's a black horse, Old Nig. Then next to that was, there was—later on it became Sunset Sporting Goods, but next to that was Kammeyer's, had the big old wooden gun out front. Remember that? No pictures of that? They had a big rifle made out of wood it was about, god, had to be 6 or 8 feet. Kammeyer's Sporting Goods and then next was the church. Kammeyer's, I think one of those boys became an obstetrician/gynecologist here in Ogden, working. Dr. Kammeyer. Then there was the church, then across the street was the post office. Now it you went south from the Dinner Horn there was the Bamboo Noodle, good place. Then you came to Dokas's, and then there was a building there, old brick building that had tile. 39 Had a garage door and tile, blue and white, but I used to call bathroom tile. It was that little hex and in the middle of that white, Browning. LR: So that's on, I actually know where this building is. That's the one on Grant. MY: So the Federal Building— LR: In between 24th? FY: 24th/23rd. Well it's on the east side of 24th or the east side of Grant and north of 24th. See we started at the Dinner Horn which was on 24th, now wait a minute. MY: Wasn't that Browning next to where the Federal Building is? FY: Yeah MY: The Federal Building's here and then you go north on Grant and Browning's was right there. LR: Well there were two Browning buildings. They kind of faced—their backs were to each other. One was on Kiesel and one was on Grant. So the one you're talking about? FY: Has to be on 24th then, between 24th and 23rd MY: No it was 24th and 25th. FY: It has to be 24th/25th because the church is on 24th going to 23rd. Dokas was in there somewhere and there was— MY: It was Browning and then Dokas. FY: There was a commercial building with a garage door. 40 LR: That's the one on Grant. FY: Yeah and it had, in front of the door, it had an apron. Blue trim, it was oblong and it had blue edging and a white—in the white it said Browning and it was that tile, that little 6 sided tile. LR: You'll be happy to know that they actually restored that building and that's still there, that tile. FY: It is? I have to go down and somehow, but hell you know I can't walk anymore. MY: We'll have to get you a chair. LR: The one on Kiesel it's long gone. FY: Yeah that's where Pete found the Browning workshop and gave it to the Depot. Now I was in Nauvoo and I saw the old original Browning workshop, had a personal tour of that building. They've done great work with it, with Nauvoo. I stopped there, I was on this spot and I had some neighbors who were doing a mission there. I found them, funny I'm living in Rexburg and I pull in to Nauvoo, and that's way before the temple was restored and all that, and I'm looking around and there's a few buildings here and there. I see a couple of people raking leaves in front of this brick building and it turns out to be their headquarters or office or something. I pulled up and I hollered out the window, "Hello there!" The lady comes over I say, "I'm looking for the Cazier, would you know where they are?" She says, "I don't know where they are, but wait a minute," and she walked in and come out with a binder, everybody's schedule. "Well he's down at 41 the blacksmith shop and she's over at the tinkers place." So she directs me and I got down to the blacksmith shop and I walked in on a presentation. Anyway after the presentation they handed out horseshoe nail rings to the kids and I said to Gale, "Geez, can I have one of those? I had one when I was a kid," and I got that somewhere. I looked at it not too long ago here. Anyhow I said, "I used to have one," so he gave it to me and I wore and I stopped on that trip, I stopped in Cheyenne and my brother was there. I was telling him, I said, "Here's what I brought." Bill looks at it, says, "Gee I had one of them when I was a kid." Every kid had one of them cause they had blacksmith and they still had some horses around. Anyhow they just bent a nail around a pipe, but anyhow I have that ring somewhere and it's been 15 years ago since I got that. I visit with Gale and I said, "Where's Yvonne?" He says, "She's over at the tinkers I'll take you," so we go over to the tinkers. She says she's embarrassed standing there with cue cards, 3 by 5 cards. "I just got assigned here yesterday, this is my first day. Up until now I was over at the Browning workshop." She was nervous as all get out. I said, "Well I'll tell you what Yvonne, I'm alone nothing to worry about you know me, be comfortable, make your pitch." She went through it, had to make a few references and she says, "Well that wasn't so hard." Anyhow then she took me over to the Browning place, just 42 the two of us, and they got us in there and out in the garden—a lot of these places they'd planted gardens. Tomato plants, lettuce, eggplant you know and they feed themselves. I mean they had these gardens and they keeps the weeds down and all these missionaries have fresh produce all through the summer. Then they took me—I had a little personal tour, saw a few things that most visitors don't get to see, but doing a bang up job. They have a land office and I didn't understand the land office until I left. I had another neighbor, who was a day behind me and when he came back we got comparing notes. The land office has the original plans of Nauvoo, and if you tell them who you're interested in—My wife's great grandfather, I got a deed or not a deed but a copy of a deed and a location on the town plat of where he lived and he lived about two blocks from Joseph Smith. Now it's right downtown, Nauvoo. A lot of motels and souvenir shops, but the rest of it, they're doing a bang up job. What's not there anymore, right across the street on the corner from the old temple, was the headquarters of the reorganized church. The church finally bought them out a few years ago, but they had a nice modern brick building and they were on one corner. This office I stopped at was just up on the other block on another corner and they've restored the temple. I was able to see where the fount was, they had a well in there and some of those sunstones were still laying around. Anyhow I don't know if we got off subject. LR: It's okay. I hate to be the one to say put the brakes out, but you've worn me out. I was worried about wearing you out and you've done the exact opposite. I haven't had lunch yet. 43 FY: Well I'll tell you what. I've got a pot of lentils and I'll be glad to share them because I hate leftovers. LR: Ok. For not being an Ogden native you sure know a lot about the buildings, why is that? FY: Cause I like history. See I took a course at Weber State one time on Utah history and it was taught by this Hispanic fellow. I don't remember his name now. Anyhow I can tell you about places wherever I've gone see. I can tell you things. I lived in Star Valley for a while. I know where the old Oregon Trail passed through the valley. I can take you there, I'm sure it's still there. I think if they widened the road they went that a way see. I followed Louis and Clark from St. Louis to Fort Clatsop, except where you had to go on a boat. Through Nebraska and that country there, there's not much to see, but from Fort Mandin all over, pretty much all of it. I've been to Lemhi Pass, I got the journals here, I read it and copied the original journals, I've seen them. God they're great big I don't know how many. I have my brother, one brother, he found some old 16 mm movies that we had when we were kids and he gave them to a guy and he was able to salvage about 15 or 20 minutes. Some are home movies, some are old movies that we used to buy. You know we had no TV and I had a crank that you could buy things. Saw Felix the Cat and few things. Got all of that on DVD. Wherever I've gone, I know the history from where I was born. I know see I grew up in Pennsylvania, Philadelphia was 90 miles away. When I moved to California for a couple of years, I'd been on most every mission from San Diego to Sonoma. Some of them weren't much but wrecks when I saw them and now 44 most of them have been restored, but I went to that mission in Carmel. I'm shocked, got a big sign about Father Serra saying mass on the 4th of July, 1776. That was an enlightenment, I knew July 4th Philadelphia, the Liberty Bell you know. Same time the Spanish were out there, they're planting gardens and converting the natives. So I can tell you a lot about California and I can tell you about the Civil War. What I should have been is a historian. Start of Part II, July 23, 2013. FY: I'd like to start. We were on 24th street, we talked about Kammeyer's and the big gun out front, the sign? LR: Yes we did. FY: Smith and Edward's bought Kammeyer's. If you got in touch with Bert Smith I bet you could find that gun. LR: Is he still alive? FY: Oh yeah. 93 years old and he's alive. In fact he gave a presentation on the avenging Angel, what's his name? Porter Rockwell, to a group it was in the paper like I don't know month, six weeks ago. So he's alive and well. He bought Kammeyer's and he owned it when they shut it down. Bet that sign is out there at Smith and Edward's or maybe at his home or somewhere. I'm sure—not Bert he wouldn't throw it away. You know he bought the old Swift building. LR: Where you used to work? 45 FY: 60,000 bucks he paid for that old place and he told me he said, "I feel good. When I feel good about a deal it means I made a good deal." Hell he probably got his 60,000 bucks back just in the salvage on the first month or so. Cause he opened it, he rented different parts, he put holes in the wall and gave access. He rented out the garage and he punched a hole in the wall and the curing cellars became—the last I saw it a guy was selling boats in there. I don't know if he sold them or maintained them or he had a dealership or something. He sold two new boilers. They'd brought in the newest boiler was probably a year old, the other one probably two or three years old. Probably got 60 grand right there. LR: So where was the Swift building? FY: Just across the yards on 24th. Hey there's some great pictures in here and we're going to go through these pictures. FY: Anyhow here's a picture of 25th street [Frank is looking at pictures from Ogden City: It's Government Legacy]. See in the 20s there were trolley cars. LR: But that's not the Bamberger? FY: No that's a trolley car, that's a city system and I read in here what I didn't know. They had six routes. You know I told you my father-in-law used to drive one of them. That's how come my wife was born at the Cobble Cottage in 1927 cause he was down here, He was down here driving. Anyhow they had six routes, 24 miles. I didn't knowhit was that extensive, but there's the Healy Hotel and here's that building that's still here. Anyhow the Royal Hotel used to be the Arcadia. 46 LR: So here's a question for you and maybe you know. I've always thought that Porter's and Waiter's wasn't its own individual building. That it was underneath— FY: It was the downstairs. It was a bar and it was an afterhours club and there was like a shooting or knifing about twice a week in there. Now I never went in the place when it was that, but you know the guy that went up on the roof to look over at the sunbathers, he used to go in there frequently. The upstairs was the hotel and they catered to the black employees from the railroad which were mostly porters and waiters. See the dining cars—all the waiters were black, stewards were white. So when you gave an order in the dining car you wrote it out from the menu and they filled the order then they brought you the bill and you gave them the money and the steward handled all the money. Now those people—Ogden was a junction see between [audio missing]. LR: Hopefully it will be in business now. FY: Okay we were talking about the porters and waiters. Ogden was the—I don't remember what they used to call it. It was the end of the run, see they changed crews and these guys had to have a place to stay. We talked about the situation and there's a picture in here of Read's with the horse up on top. I was told by someone that horse is out on west 12th street in front of some veterinary's place. Anyhow they called the place the porters and waiters club and in fact in those days 25th street—this tells after it got cleaned up it went downhill fast just like I was telling you. Lot of transients moved in and there's a picture in here of the old Shupe Williams candy factory. I'd forgotten about that, it's on 26th and Wall. Big four story, they were a big candy company and they shut down I don't know. 47 They were running when I came and then some transients got in there as usually happens, burned the damn place down. Directly north now we're talking on the west side of Wall Avenue, directly north across 26th street was the old Union Pacific Laundry. Well when the trains quit running they didn't need the laundry anymore. Then next to that was railway express agency. You remember the railway express wagons with the great big wheels? I'm sure they have one or two at the depot. They were baggage carts. They met the trains and they'd off load baggage and freight. They were huge wheels, and you know guys would pull them by hand or push them. Those buildings are gone and then on the other side was the freight station, that's gone too. Now across the street we got the Healy Hotel identified and well we'll go around the corner. There was a place called Ketchum Builder's Supply and a big one story low building. I can remember driving down there for something on a Saturday when the Teton Dam broke cause I listened to it on the radio. I had no idea about where it was or what it was, but geez you know that was 1976. What is that now? Pushing 50 years, 45/40. LR: Yeah 45. FY: So how time flies. That buildings gone. Next to this was Goddard's. Goddard was an industrial supply. The brick building is still there. Next was Scowcroft's on Wall Avenue. LR: heading towards 26th? 48 FY: Heading towards 24th. We're going around the corner from the Healy. It was Ketchum, then Goddard, then Scowcroft. Scowcroft was a big whole sale—dry goods and food wholesaler. I think they've saved that building, I think it's on the national historic register. What I remember about it last time I saw it, they had that you could still see the advertising on the outside. They made overalls, now you've heard of Osh Kosh B'Gosh? Well they had Can't Bust 'em, that was their brand. One of the Scowcroft's if he's still alive, the General Scowcroft used to be an intelligence guy for George, first George Bush. Brent Scowcroft he was born here. He's a Scowcroft from that family and that building I think has been restored. Now it's cross the street from the Transit you know. The railroad, frontrunner, depot the travel. What do they call it? LR: The park and ride FY: You know and they have the buses. Then you come up 24th street and I think Anderson Lumber was in there. See now you're under the viaduct and you're now coming up the south side of 24th street to Wall Avenue. Now we're at Lincoln and we're going backwards up from that lumber company, Richard's, the turkey guy, the fish market, the Grant tap, and then the Dinner Horn. Now go across the street to the church and start going east, that's where you ran into Kammeyer's, next to the church. Then Sunset Sporting Goods was in there but there was something before that I don't recall. Then you ran into Read, leather people. Then you crossed Kiesel and it was a couple of businesses and the hardware store I told you about and J.C. Penney's, which according to this book, used to be ZCMI before 1900. Now cross Washington 49 Boulevard there was the W. T. Grant and you went up the hill to St. Joseph's Church and look at this picture. This I think is 24th street, there's the bend on 24th, freeway is out here and see here's a spur. That's the one that goes up to the elevators. There's packing house, there's the big livestock pavilion and here's the stock yards. LR: So this is where they would do the auctions? FY: Yeah, and that's where they had the stock show. See and here's the viaduct. LR: So this would be Union Station? FY: No the Union Station would be over here. LR: Oh this is 24th okay. FY: It'd be around here, 25th would be up here. That's 24th, that's got to be stairs to the station. LR: Well if the freeway is over here 25th has to be right here. FY: Oh no, the other way, okay you're right. LR: You can actually see where it ends right there. FY: I was going the wrong direction. LR: This is Wall and that's 25th and that looks like the Ben Lomond. FY: And the depot would be over here. I don't know when they viaduct was built but there's an interesting picture in here that has a Grandview Acres. This was war housing. They were two story duplexes, still around I think. They were at about 38th and Quincy or somewhere and there was a lady lived downstairs, her 50 grandfather used to manage that place. We were talking one time and I said I probably knew him because my wife and I looked out there to buy one of those duplexes. I guess it's still there, but there's another small world story see. Now see here's this, here's another picture. Like on the cover, here's 24th street, there's that big bend and here's where Del Monte was. LR: The Cannery? FY: The elevators were here. The packing house and the yards. Now in this picture the viaduct was there. Now there's the Broom Hotel which was built about 1880 something and this was 1920, a war parade. But you look at it you notice all the window blinds are even. You know it was in great shape. Well when they finally tore it down, had to be around 1960 or late 50s it was pretty decrepit. LR: It didn't look nearly as good? FY: It was kind of just abandoned and they built the bank. Oh here, here's one. Here's Washington boulevard, you remember I told you, see this is before the Ben Lomond, but there's the Orpheum theater. LR: See I thought the Orpheum was on 25th street. FY: No, the Orpheum was right there next to Ben Lomond. It's a state office building now. This was the old city hall, I don't remember that but anyhow remember I told you about the shoe store, right there. And these two little buildings between were there in the 70s. LR: now it's a parking lot. 51 FY: Yeah, next to the hotel. But there's visual evidence and you can—St. Joseph back in the 20s, that's also on the historic register. LR: Well it sounds like you enjoyed skimming through that. FY: Oh here, Sacred Heart Academy. I mentioned the girls school, 25th and Quincy. The nuns ran this and really some of these details I picked—they had 600 boarding students, all girls and every prominent Mormon pretty much sent their girls to St. Anne's for their education. It was the place, but what I found interesting in here is these nuns were from St. Mary's in South Bend, Indiana. There was a college there, St. Mary's College. You see now I got to look this up. Is Notre Dame what used to be St. Mary's College? I'm talking back 1878 when the nuns first came here see. That's how things build. They came out—St. Joseph's Catholic School, oldest school continuing in the whole state—started 1878 by these nuns on the corner. Now according to this, Utah Bank, Bank of Utah, southwest corner of 26th and Washington, anyhow they tore that down and we talked about this yesterday. Remember we talked about all the doctors who were downtown, mostly in the First Security Building. Well when they abandoned the school somebody got in there and turned it into a professional mall and that's when the doctors started leaving and getting spread around town. Which was another stake in the heart of downtown because that had to be, it's in here somewhere, 1960 or something like that. So those are some of the details. Here's Weber College, when the church gave it to the state. I understand they tore that building down. Now why the hell would they tear that down? 52 LR: It's the American mentality unfortunately. FY: Now stands an empty lot there. The city school district, Ogden City School District got this property and their offices there; it's on, what is it, Adams and 26th or something? I think it's across from the forest service. Anyhow the building on the corner is still there, but this was next and it's gone. LR: But the one with the WC on the façade? FY: I think. LR: I've driven past it a couple of times, they're doing some work on it right now. FY: Well anyhow there's the Shupe Williams Candy Company. LR: And this is the one on Wall and? FY: 26th. Now see that was on the southwest corner, now you're coming this way on Wall. You cross the street here and you ran into the Union Pacific Laundry and now that's where they have some of those old cars. Now transients burned this thing down. Now they're doing the same thing, I see in the paper they had a couple of fires this winter. They have a couple of old wooden railroad cars down there they got for restoration and they've run transients out because they've set them on fire trying to keep warm. That's what burned down that grocery store and I think the name was Nicholas, the grocer. Nicholas Grocer. LR: That actually makes sense, I recall that name. FY: During that period when 25th street was skid row, lot of those upstairs, you know they were a lot of hotels and rooming houses and stuff. Some old wino got cold in the middle of the night and lit a fire under the sink and burned the damn place 53 down. What I'm trying to find is that picture of the bridges across the Weber River down by the packing house. In here they mentioned Clix. LR: Is that a gas station? FY: Well Clix, his name was Clarence Swanner and he had a gas station on 26th and Grant I think it was. Northeast corner, Clicks Service. How come you're familiar with Clix Service? LR: I interviewed a gentleman whose grandfather owned it originally and sold it to the Swanners. FY: Well Clicks died at a 103 and he's mentioned in here playing cards or playing marbles on 25th street when he was a kid. Well see when he was a kid, he was probably born1895 or something, and so when he was playing marbles down there it was probably pretty much like the rest of Ogden, just rough frontier town. Here's a picture of the yards. I'll tell you what I did. I called my kid up last night and I went through this with him. LR: Would that be Marva's husband? FY: Yeah, cause we talked about these places. See there's the viaduct, don't know when that was built. This is 29th street, here's the elevators on 29th. You know where you go around them when you get on the freeway you go down 30th. These are the elevators see. That's 29th street LR: So this would be the station here? FY: No this is the Ice House and this here is where they, used to ice the reefers. LR: So where's the station? 54 FY: I can remember when they used to do that. LR: Ice the reefers? FY: Refrigerated cars had ice. Both ends had bunkers with hatches on the top and they'd run these refrigerated cars down there and they'd put ice out of the Ice House and they had a belt would run the ice. Guys would walk along the train, lift the hatch if they needed ice, they'd throw in a couple of 100 pound blocks and they iced every refrigerated train that went through here. Then they went to mechanical refrigeration and they tore this out, but the Ice House is still there. Here's 24th street, so the depot has got to be over and around here somewhere, but look at all the trackage. There was a Y out here. Train coming in from the east would pull into the station and then when it was leaving for the west it would back out and that Y is gone long time ago. See when I first came this was all active, there's the Southern Pacific Roundhouse. I had a neighbor, was a Southern Pacific engineer, and oh there's the old Bamberger train, probably at Lagoon. Here's the stock yards. Now see there's the packing house, just started out as American, as Ogden Packing, then went to American Packing and Provision then Swift bought them in 1949. LR: So that's where you worked? FY: Yeah and this was the ramp where they drove the livestock and here's these two bridges and I'm trying to find the picture. We were talking about Clix, he remembered when they put that bridge in and the bridge is still there and it's got a plaque on it, who built it, who installed it, when they installed it, all that information. Here it is, see. Now this was taken—there's no viaduct and the 55 packing house was probably in there somewhere maybe at this time it was probably pretty small. Here's the railroad bridge, this is the bridge Clix remembers when they installed it. It's over the Weber River and on this side of it there's a plague and you can still see it. Here's the road bridge that goes out Wilson Lane, that took you—see on this picture 24th street see came across and there's Wilson Lane and here's that spur that comes up to the elevators. So I don't know when they built the viaduct, but prior to that you had to cross the tracks and I imagine like on most railroad crossing back in those days that they'd have a guy come out with a sign, stop traffic while the trains went by. LR: Getting back to 24th street, did we finish 24th street then? FY: Yeah I think we did. Now we could go around the corner on 24th and Lincoln and go to the Iron Works, Ogden Iron Works is now where the ballpark is. The Ogden Iron Works was big, now I didn't notice anything in there, I could've missed it. By then it got pretty extensive. But I think they had something to do with the Golden Gate bridge, it was fabricated, all types of steel and stuff. That was going and the can company was going and Del Monte was going and the packing houses, we had three of them and they were all going. The railroads, you know things were booming. This was a going town and it distresses me to go downtown, I drive down 24th street. The First Security Banks empty, the Wells Fargo cross the street big signs space to let, and you go down where the church tore down and the old Travelodge hotel/motel all that's empty space. Then you go over here by Rite Aid down on 24th street, well kiddy-corner to Rite Aid is old Wheelwright Lumber, all abandoned. See it used to be 56 lumberyards were downtown, Anderson Lumber was down there and Wheelwright was there just on Adams or Monroe, somewhere in there. That place we talked about, I can't remember what Marva called it. LR: Burton. FY: Burton, that was downtown. The town I come from up in Rexburg, Boise, Cascade, still right downtown. Anderson Lumber left, but that's the way it was. All this space, there's urban blight, we got it. Now what they're starting to do, I read it and I see it, they've done some preliminary work. The city is going to open Fowler Avenue between 24th and 23rd and they're going to put 28 homes in the middle of that block. They've already cut down all the trees and I think the power company's run a couple of lines in. Then you know they have historic districts now and I can remember, that was probably 20 years ago, when they were selling homes to somebody for a buck or 100 bucks, for very little money if you'd restore them. Some of those neighborhoods are starting to come back, but lots of empty places. You go down on Washington Boulevard, lot of places they got business, strip malls. You know they got some of these big buildings, you see them advertising like stock broker, 24 or something suite 8. Well those were all big stores and businesses and there's a picture in here of 25th and Washington. LR: While you're looking let me ask you a question. So with the railroad stopping in the 70s, you talked about how it just kind of died. What do you think is bringing it back? Is helping it kind of become more of the city, the industrial, not industrial. You know what I'm trying to ask? I don't think I'm doing a very good job. 57 FY: I don't think it's coming back that fast. See it was diverse, Riverdale was all farms. You had, like everybody else you had urban sprawl. Everybody wanted to move out. Well that's bad but then when the businesses start moving out which is what happened with the Newgate Mall. When Stephen Dirks—he was talking about a mall before the Newgate Mall. They all downplayed it in the council chamber I guess. When they started Sear's was already gone, Woolworth's was already gone and probably several other places were gone. See you had there on one block, these were all like five and dime stores: W. T. Grant, you had Woolworth, Kresge, Newberry, I'm missing one. They were all there between 24th and 23rd on Washington. Then down—you know it had all kinds of stores. Cross's Western Wear was down there, we mentioned Reliable Furniture which later became Wolf. LR: You mentioned Reliable Furniture, yes. Isn't that where you got your— FY: No that's Madsen. Now Madsen is gone, they're gone but they're still in Salt Lake. I see them advertised on TV, Madsen Furniture. We were talking about that dinette set, over 40 years old and I'm still here and that's still here and Madsen's gone. Then, just come to mind. I think it was right next to the Episcopal Church. J.W. Brewer, tire company. I think he was on Grant. LR: He had a brief stint in the Browning Building, the one on Kiesel. It was only for a year and it was— FY: He sold appliances in there and I knew the guy who ran it, Sandy. Anyhow he ended up he was managing the Ben Lomond Hotel for a while and Cal Rampton was governor. When Cal Rampton would come to Ogden they'd take a room for 58 him there and Sandy what the hell was his name? He stocked it with a corncob pipe and some tobacco for the governor. It will come to me about 1:00 in the morning, but then he ran J. W. Brewer's I think, before he managed the hotel. He was on—I remember the store, it was a big store, J. W. Brewer tire. For a while he was like, not Les Schwab cause he's too big, but like Jack's Tire out of Logan. See Jack's Tire started in Logan, got a big place here and I don't know, they probably got a few others. J. W. Brewer had a couple, 3 locations and he was starting to build—I don't know whatever happened, but he was on Kiesel or Grant north of 24th I think. I remember the big store, big glass front. That was way before Big O, but there was a Firestone Store, that was his competitor. They were on 23rd and Washington, across from Reliable. Then I think Dar Larsen and a bunch of guys started a bank and their office was just up the hill from Washington on 23rd or 22nd and I can't remember the name of the bank, but they went defunct. Dar Larsen was Pepsi Cola. LR: That plant was on? FY: 17th and Washington. LR: I thought they had one on 25th street, the PepsiCo plant. I could be wrong. FY: Well they're going to tear that place down. It's now—I don't know what it is now— but it was a disco. It's right there by the river and they're going to tear it down. City is going to sell it to 7-11, they're going to put a 7-11 store there. Anyhow he and a bunch of guys started a bank and I can't remember what they called it, but it fizzled. I didn't recall seeing that in here, course I did a lot of skipping when it 59 looked familiar. Their office was just up the hill from Washington, somewhere on the north side of 23rd or 22nd, probably 23rd street. Standard Examiner was up on Adams and I think 23rd, that's where it was when Abe Glassman was running it. He had a farm that's now Smith's out on 41st and Harrison, that was the Glassman farm. For years they held out, they were developing all around and Glassman, I don't know he had about 40 acres in there, all gone. LR: I guess I should mention that I wanted you to talk about Kramer's, Kramer's Hot Dogs. I've heard a lot about it and would love to get your take. FY: It was, I don't know maybe the front end of a private home, but you walked up on the sidewalk and there was a window, Kramer's Hot Dogs and Hamburgers. The synagogue's in there, they must still have a synagogue in town, on 27th something Grant. Well that was about next door to Kramer's. Yeah they served— then further down was Utah Bottling where when they quit bottling they served beer and now I think there's apartments back in there. I can remember when they served schooners. Yeah I had more than one in there, nice cool plenty of parking. Kramer's was just a walk up storefront, it was—I mean there's the sidewalks and there's all the buildings, the fronts. It was Kramer's and it had a big window and you bought a hot dog or a hamburger and they were good. LR: Would you call them the best in town? FY: Well I don't recall, but there weren't many place to eat hamburgers as hamburger joints until about late 60s. They opened a place between 24th and 25th on the 60 east side, I think they called it the Burger Chalet. It wasn't like all those—narrow deep and you walked in, they had a telephone at each booth. You'd pick up the phone and place your order to the kitchen and that was there for several years. I remember when the first McDonald's opened, it was out across from Weber High School which was on about 11th and Washington Boulevard. It had the golden arches and hamburgers were 15 cents. Swift's supplied the burgers and I can remember when—guy's name was Frank Fidel who ran that part of the operation. He did the hotel and restaurant part of the business. Many a Saturday or Sunday he had to go down to the packing house and get hamburgers cause they, you know they didn't buy enough or something. Business was that great. Anyhow then I think they opened another place further down, south Washington Boulevard, but they gave it up when I remember it was big news. They gave it up because McDonald's then started to enclose it and they didn't think it was worth the effort or the expense. LR: So they closed the Kramer's? FY: So they sold McDonald's. Boy I bet that was a mistake. On that corner of 12th street about that time Mound Fort was on 12th and Washington, Mound Fort Junior High. Across the street there was an ice cream place and I think next door was a butcher shop. That turned into the Food Town, they tore all that out and put Food Town which is a big market which is gone now. There was a guy named Dover, owned the ice cream shop and they sold hamburgers and sandwiches. Got a lot of school trade at noon, but it had a false front, the façade, and they called it the White Cliffs of Dover and he had a picture painted on there 61 of the white cliffs of Dover. I think his name was Otto. Anyhow he built a house, he was one of those first houses going up east 12th that are kind of built up into the side hill? Anyhow he either built there or out on Harrison Boulevard where, I don't know how far out it is, maybe 4800 or 46 where there's a field and there's homes built kind of down in a gulley. They ran Harrison—they filled it in and ran Harrison through there. He served good ice cream sodas. Then on the other corner was a motel. LR: We have gotten off track a little bit, and I don't mind I'm enjoying what you're talking about. Getting back to 24th and 25th, I mean visually I can't tell where we're at, but do you think we've covered? FY: Well we've gone from Adams to Wall and across the yards. We went on 24th street all the way out to the freeway, out by Del Monte and the stock yards and the elevators. Out there— LR: So how many of these places did you have personal interaction with do you think? FY: Personal reactions? LR: Interactions, where you actually go and visit. You think most of them, a third? FY: Oh first, you know we've been talking about the Marion Hotel. Marion Hotel is on Lincoln, now what I don't know is what the hell was that hotel on 25th and Grant where I told you that the Friendly Tavern was next door and the Salvation Army Band would play. Now that was a hotel, I thought that was—I had in my mind that 62 that was the Marion until I saw a picture and Marion Hotel is still there with the sign and it's on Lincoln. LR: I don't know, I'd have to ask. Do you know? EM: No. FY: See that's now across from the federal building. LR: Right, so you want to know where the one was on the name of the hotel on Grant and 25th? FY: See we got the Healy Hotel now and the Royal. LR: The Healy and Broom Hotel were basically the same. FY: No, no. The Broom was on Washington and the Healy was on Wall. The Broom was that nice Victorian with the bay windows and that was a nice building. Yeah when they tore it down it was bad. They had to quit renting rooms, it was just too bad. Well I'll tell you I was in a lot of these places. We talked about Crittenden and Paint and Glass. Before Crittenden it was Fuller Paint and I used to buy paint from them cause they gave me wholesale price and then Crittenden took it over. See that's way back in the 50s. Minnie cut my hair, I drank beer at the Grant Tap, I went over to see Pete Vlahos in his office. LR: I can't get over Vlahos. I see his name and I say Valejos. FY: Nope he pronounced is Vlahos. Yeah the old Bamberger station and I talked about the bug house, you know old John Marsh. Lot of those bars and restaurants up and down 25th street besides the China Temple and the Star, everybody hit them because they were the only places open late that were nice. 63 The bus terminal yeah and the Elks Lodge, I never belonged but I used to get in there now and then. Brown's Ice Cream which was lately the Hostess Thrift Store, and Brown's Ice Cream was a premium ice cream and Swift bought them. Then when Swift closed you know they closed everything. That's when I guess the bakery bought it and they ended up pretty much that whole block except 25th street cause they bought the Elks Lodge and they bought Lacey's apartment house that was behind the Boracho and all that's left on that block that doesn't belong to the bakery is the west side of or the south side of 25th street. Just that one lot deep. There were places that I used to go into Read's and the Finer Tap, and Marva mentioned the Lighthouse bar. They used to be an electric shop, Lighthouse Electric, and they had that sign. I don't know is that sign still there? It was a Lighthouse and said Lighthouse Electric. Right under the Berthana or right next door to the Berthana yeah hell you know downtown. Hey on a Friday night and a Saturday night in Ogden when they had the dance halls going and all that if you didn't get down there by 6:00 or 6:30, you couldn't park three blocks from anywhere. There's a picture in there of the, I can't remember these things. The dance hall there on 24th and what was it, The White? LR: The White City. FY: White city, yeah. There's a picture in there of that ballroom. I danced there and danced at the Berthana and drank beer in most of the places. I never went in El Boracho. LR: That was going to be my next question, did you ever go in there? 64 FY: No, but you know I noticed driving down Wall Avenue about 26th or 7 there's a place called Pico De Gallo. The original Pico De Gallo was on Wall about 22nd or 23rd and it looked like a, the building looked like an old auto junk shop. It was cinder block and it was a dive. My brother used to come to town, he liked it. He liked the food and he'd go down there and it was a dive. I didn't dare go in and I remember the cinder block and they had a big window looked like it was made from you know like old car windshields or something. Anyhow I come back after 30 years and there's Pico De Gallo in a big fancy building. Well of course the place they had is gone, I guess that's part of that frontrunner, that whole development in there. Kammeyer's bought a lot of sporting goods in there and Read's they sold canvas goods, tents and stuff like that besides the leather and the saddlery. The hardware store, and I mentioned Ketchum's. By the time I went to Ketchum's, Klenke's was gone. I think that was the name of the place, love that old hardware store cause it was all compartmented. It was before blister packs and all these little drawers with a little index thing on front. The ladder with the track and I just groove on that stuff and I'm sure when they razed the building they just hauled it all instead of saving at least part of the wall. LR: I think we're winding down here, which I find sad. I want to keep talking, however can you think of anything else on those two streets that you've missed or that you'd like to add before we wind down? FY: I mentioned the gun and the Smith and Edward's. You got to check with Bert about that gun. 65 LR: I'll talk to Sarah and see what she can come up with. FY: You might check out that story I have about that horse by some vet out on west 12th street. LR: Now is that the one that they called Black Nig? FY: Old Nig. LR: Old Nig, thank you. I knew it was something like that. FY: Yeah that was—he was a famous horse around town, I don't know, probably somebody owned him. See now here, here's 25th street and Grant it's this building here on the corner. LR: The hotel? FY: Yeah see and over here would be the bus station. I was at the Egyptian theater back to hear—I can't remember if it was Robert Taft or Everett Dirkson, but I think it was Robert Taft. He tried running for president and he came out and he gave a speech at the Egyptian theater and they let any management people who desired to get off for an hour or two to go up to hear them talk. I remember, I was, boy I was a staunch republican and I was there. I remember, don't remember what he said but I remember the incident mostly because I got an hour or two off work see. Now here's 25th street see. Here's the Marion Hotel so what the hell is this one? LR: Okay that's where Willie's store is now, in the bottom of the Marion. FY: Why did they do this? 66 LR: Now it's a— FY: Diagonal? LR: Diagonal so they've changed it. FY: What were these barriers for? LR: Crosswalks, because there are crosswalks now. FY: That's the building. I thought that was—until I saw this picture I thought that was the Marion Hotel. See anyhow one of these places here was the Friendly Tap, the Friendly Tavern and the band would stand right there, Salvation Army Band, and they'd play for about an hour/45 minutes. It was great because it was about five people, they had the drum of course. Beating the bass, that's classic and we'd walk over and that's when I was telling you we were living on top of the Richard Sheet Metal cause we had that little dog. People were turning us down for an apartment and see here's the empty lot where the grocery store was and the hotel upstairs. After they shut down all the vice it became skid row. They tell you in here, yeah I remember it was a skid row and the only places decent people went was the China Temple or the Star Noodle cause you kind of feared for your life. It was porter's and waiter's club and what I found interesting in here, the names. They talk about councilmen and mayors and a lot of these names come back and I remember. I saw in there George T. Frost was the councilmen, elected to the council. I knew him, he had a Hudson dealership on Washington Boulevard. He had a brother that drove truck for Swift. I don't 67 remember his first name, we called him Frosty. He got killed, ran his truck over somewhere back east. Mayor White, Rulon White, he's the guy who started cleaning up the town. I guess I voted for him because he was elected 1951, I was here. He was the White Concrete Pipe Co. down on I think Wall Avenue they were. He had an orchard or something past the hot springs going up there on that fruitway and Rulon White Ranch was what they called it or something. 68

De ser una realidad relevante durante la segunda mitad del siglo XX, aunque de corte episódico y mirada doméstica, la diplomacia subnacional en Estados Unidos ha transitado con el nuevo milenio hacia nuevos esquemas multiactor, más complejos, sofisticados y con mayor capacidad de impacto. Esquemas en los que algunas organizaciones filantrópicas, el sector privado, think tanks altamente influyentes y la academia tienen un peso muy significativo. Hoy, la embajadora Nina Hachigian, representante especial de Estados Unidos para la diplomacia de ciudades y estados, lidera una estrategia que busca ganar influencia en el Departamento de Estado con el objetivo de situar a los gobiernos subnacionales como piezas de peso en el engranaje de la diplomacia estadounidense. Está por ver su evolución, más aún con Donald Trump en el horizonte.En una coyuntura fuertemente marcada por la reformulación del orden global y por la intensa competición entre Estados Unidos y China, la diplomacia subnacional está adquiriendo un papel cada vez más significativo. En un mundo que se urbaniza de manera acelerada, especialmente en el Sur global, las ciudades desempeñan un papel clave en el abordaje de algunas de las principales transformaciones económicas y sociales que se están produciendo. No es posible entender los procesos de transición ecológica y digital, la reformulación del modelo productivo o las nuevas desigualdades sin situarlas en el centro de la ecuación.Hoy en día, metrópolis como Nueva York, París, Londres, Tokio o Shanghái se encuentran entre las principales economías del planeta; y no es posible entender América Latina sin São Paulo, Ciudad de México o Buenos Aires; tampoco África sin Johannesburgo, El Cairo o Lagos; ni la región Asia Pacífico sin Seúl, Sídney o Singapur; o América del Norte sin Los Ángeles, Chicago o Toronto; y Europa sin Berlín, Ámsterdam, Viena o Barcelona. Las ciudades aglomeran poder político, económico, creatividad y talento; sus gobiernos cuentan con una capacidad normativa cada vez mayor, promueven derechos e impulsan soluciones en ámbitos críticos como la movilidad, la vivienda o frente a las múltiples formas de desigualdad o fragmentación.Todo ello las ha posicionado como actores reconocidos y cada vez más visibles del sistema de las relaciones internacionales. Actores dinámicos e innovadores que, aun operando en un escenario todavía monopolizado por los estados-nación, impulsan alianzas y suman fuerzas para incidir en las agendas internacionales, se proyectan en búsqueda de oportunidades económicas, generan espacios para intercambiar conocimiento o tejen redes de solidaridad en contextos complejos. En una coyuntura de retos compartidos, los alcaldes y alcaldesas y sus equipos interactúan trabajando en red para abordar los desafíos que tienen ante sí.El potencial transformador de las ciudades y su capacidad para articularse a nivel global no ha pasado desapercibido por las grandes potencias mundiales. En Europa, cuna del municipalismo internacional, la Unión Europea (UE) ha forjado durante décadas una alianza con los gobiernos locales que ha servido para abrir espacios de colaboración e intercambio en prácticamente todas las regiones del mundo. Desde los años noventa del siglo pasado, Bruselas ha impulsado diferentes programas financieros para acompañar a las ciudades en algunos de los principales desafíos que enfrentan, reforzando sus capacidades y reconociéndolas como actores clave para el desarrollo sostenible. Sin embargo, y aunque en los últimos meses se está hablando de la necesidad de localizar el Global Gateway 1, el apoyo europeo a las diversas expresiones de la diplomacia subnacional parece haber perdido el vigor que tenía (Fernández de Losada y Galceran-Vercher, 2023).Diversos analistas han puesto también el foco en el creciente peso que las ciudades y los procesos de urbanización tienen en la proyección exterior de China (Curtis y Klaus, 2023). Efectivamente, la Iniciativa de la Franja y la Ruta (BRI, por sus siglas en inglés) –la piedra angular del expansionismo del gigante asiático– se expresa de manera evidente en muchas ciudades alrededor del mundo. Las inversiones millonarias que China ha facilitado para desarrollar infraestructuras críticas en entornos urbanos de Asia, África y América Latina, pero también en Europa, son buena prueba de ello. En paralelo, la diplomacia subnacional china es cada vez más dinámica y teje vínculos en todas las regiones del planeta, mientras asegura una presencia de peso en algunas de las principales redes que operan a escala global.En este contexto, Estados Unidos lleva ya algunos años tratando de posicionarse en el ecosistema urbano global. A pesar de que, como se analiza en este artículo, esto no siempre ha sido así, las grandes ciudades y algunos estados del país gozan hoy de una fuerte presencia internacional. Una presencia marcada por la globalización, por agendas de gran impacto como la climática o la migratoria y por la irrupción de algunas organizaciones filantrópicas con fuerte capacidad de incidencia. La diplomacia subnacional estadounidense opera sustentada en una narrativa bien construida, en instrumentos dirigidos a reforzar sus capacidades y en un vínculo que se quiere cada vez más fuerte con la política exterior del país.La diplomacia comercial y la municipal foreing policyDurante muchos años, el peso de la diplomacia subnacional de Estados Unidos no ha ido en consonancia con el peso que ha tenido y tiene el país en el orden global. En la segunda mitad del siglo XX, en el periodo que va desde el final de la Segunda Guerra Mundial hasta el fin de la Guerra Fría, los marcos de referencia que guían la acción de los gobiernos territoriales del país son fundamentalmente domésticos. Los asuntos locales y nacionales predominan sobre la mirada exterior, en una lógica que se podría calificar de insular. Sin embargo, el análisis de la acción exterior de los gobiernos subnacionales del país durante estos años ofrece algunos indicios que hay que tomar en consideración. Se observa una actividad que se podría definir como episódica y que, aunque en algunos periodos es significativa, queda relativamente al margen de las dinámicas que ocupan al municipalismo internacional de la época. Ciudades y estados construyen vínculos exteriores, pero ponen el foco en asuntos de trascendencia local, como puede ser el comercio y la captación de inversiones exteriores o la promoción de valores relevantes para la comunidad, como la paz, la protección de los derechos humanos y la solidaridad.A pesar de que el municipalismo estadounidense tiene presencia en las primeras expresiones del municipalismo internacional de la década de 1920, el primer hito de la diplomacia subnacional del país se debe situar en el lanzamiento en 1956 de la plataforma Sister Cities International (SCI). Impulsada por el presidente Eisenhower, esta iniciativa promueve desde entonces el establecimiento de miles de relaciones bilaterales de cooperación entre ciudades y condados estadounidenses con sus pares en terceros países en todo el globo. SCI facilita misiones de cooperación técnica e intercambio, impulsa proyectos de promoción de los derechos humanos y la paz, así como vínculos de carácter comunitario y programas de voluntariado. La organización opera, sin embargo, en un marco de relevancia doméstica y poca conexión con organizaciones similares en otras regiones del mundo.En la década de 1980, un buen número de estados y ciudades del país ya cuentan con representaciones comerciales y para la captación de inversiones en el exterior. Ciudades como Tokio –con 19 delegaciones en 1982–, Londres, Bruselas o Frankfurt acogen las más de 60 oficinas permanentes que 33 estados y alguna ciudad, como Nueva York, tienen en más de 70 países alrededor del mundo (Duchacek, 1984). Según datos de la Asociación Nacional de Gobernadores2, en 1981 los estados del país invirtieron más en acciones promocionales que el propio Departamento de Comercio de la administración federal. También las asociaciones municipalistas se suman al empeño impulsando campañas y eventos promocionales como los organizados por la US Conference of Mayors en Zúrich y Hong Kong, en 1982 y 1983, respectivamente, bajo el lema «Invest in America's Cities» (ibídem).Aunque, seguramente, lo más destacado de la diplomacia subnacional en las postrimerías del siglo pasado lo constituye lo que el Center for Innovative Diplomacy (CID) con base en Irvine (California) bautiza como «municipal foreign policy». Efectivamente, desde finales de los años setenta, la década de los ochenta y principios de los noventa varios estados y ciudades de Estados Unidos desafían las políticas de la administración federal en América Central o Sudáfrica o se alinean con los movimientos globales contrarios a la proliferación nuclear. Urbes como Burlington (Nueva Jersey), Pittsburgh (Pensilvania) o Rochester (Nueva York) se movilizan en contra del apoyo de la administración Reagan a las fuerzas anticomunistas y contrarrevolucionarias que operan en América Central. Y lo hacen alineándose con sectores importantes de sus propias comunidades, levantando fondos para ayudar a las ciudades con las que mantienen hermanamientos y ofreciendo a los miles de refugiados centroamericanos que pueblan las ciudades de Estados Unidos, un lugar seguro (Leffel, 2018); un movimiento que constituye el origen de las ciudades santuario.En paralelo, y ante la tibieza de la administración federal, un número importante de ciudades estadounidenses se posicionan en contra del Apartheid que practica el Gobierno de Sudáfrica. Hasta 59 ciudades, y algunos estados y condados, cuentan con legislación que prohíbe las inversiones en el país sudafricano, lo que tiene un impacto calculado en más de 450.000 millones de dólares (Spiro, 1986). Asimismo, se movilizan en contra de la administración federal las más de 160 ciudades que se declaran «Nuclear Free Zones» (NFZ), que legislan para prohibir la fabricación de componentes para armas nucleares en sus territorios. Lo hacen por convicción, pero también como reacción a la decisión de la administración Reagan de desviar fondos federales, inicialmente previstos para apoyar las políticas locales, hacia el presupuesto de defensa con el objetivo de acelerar la competición nuclear con la Unión Soviética (Leffel, 2018).No obstante, y a pesar del notable, aunque episódico, dinamismo que exhibe la diplomacia subnacional estadounidense, resulta muy significativa la ausencia de las grandes ciudades de algunos de los principales debates y procesos que se dan en el seno del municipalismo internacional. Su presencia es menor en eventos considerados clave como la Cumbre de la Tierra, que tiene lugar en Rio de Janeiro en 1992, o la conferencia Hábitat II, celebrada en Estambul en 1996, donde además se convoca la primera Asamblea Mundial de Ciudades y Autoridades Locales (WACLA, por sus siglas en inglés). Más aún, no tienen peso en las organizaciones que componen el denominado G4+3 creado en su momento para asegurar la interlocución con las Naciones Unidas en el proceso de implementación de los acuerdos alcanzados en la capital de Turquía. Dicha irrelevancia puede explicar, en parte, la incapacidad de frenar el veto que Estados Unidos impone, junto a China y otros países, a la Carta Mundial de la Autonomía Local4.En la misma línea, también mantienen un perfil bajo en las organizaciones clave en ese momento. A pesar de que la National League of Cities y la US Conference of Mayorsson parte de la Unión Internacional de Autoridades Locales (IULA, por sus siglas en inglés), las grandes ciudades del país no están con sus homólogas de todo el mundo en las principales plataformas que las reúnen: la Federación Mundial de Ciudades Unidas (FMCU)5, Summit6 o Metropolis. Por otro lado, aunque sí se integran en el Consejo Internacional para las Iniciativas Ambientales Locales (ICLEI, por sus siglas en inglés) a los seis años de su fundación en 1990, tampoco están en el proceso que deriva en 2004 en la fundación de Ciudades y Gobiernos Locales Unidos (CGLU)7, la principal organización municipalista a escala global, presidida entonces por el alcalde de París y en cuya primera junta directiva aparece el alcalde de South Bay, un municipio de 4.700 habitantes de Florida. La globalización, el activismo climático y la filantropía como catalizadores de una diplomacia subnacional para el siglo XXIComo se han encargado de describir numerosos autores (Sassen, 2005; Curtis, 2018), el proceso de globalización neoliberal que se da con la caída del muro de Berlín sitúa a las ciudades globales como nodos conectores de un nuevo orden global que tiene a Estados Unidos como potencia hegemónica. Ciudades como Nueva York, Los Ángeles o Chicago, junto con sus pares en todo el mundo, irrumpen en el escenario internacional como piezas clave en el engranaje de los flujos de capital, bienes, servicios y conocimiento, aunque también de algunos de los principales retos que la globalización pone sobre la mesa.En este contexto, la emergencia climática se sitúa como un desafío global con una fuerte trascendencia urbana y una gran capacidad de movilizar a la comunidad internacional. Un desafío que reconfigura en buena medida los esquemas a través de los cuales opera la diplomacia urbana orientándola hacia una lógica multiactor, más compleja y sofisticada, dotada de mayor capacidad de incidencia. Efectivamente, la lucha contra el cambio climático activa una alianza entre las grandes ciudades del mundo y algunas de las principales organizaciones filantrópicas y think tanks, fundamentalmente estadounidenses. Una alianza que explica, en parte, el auge de la diplomacia subnacional de Estados Unidos, y que ha acercado el municipalismo internacional a los marcos de referencia políticos, económicos, sociales y culturales que rigen en el país norteamericano.En 2005, el entonces alcalde de Londres, Ken Livingston, impulsa la creación de C40, una alianza entre las grandes urbes globales que deciden compartir estrategias para combatir el cambio climático. La organización, pieza clave para la diplomacia urbana estadounidense8, tiene una importante capacidad de incidir en la agenda climática global. Una de las características que la definen ha sido su habilidad para sumar visión, estrategia y acción no solo entre alcaldes y alcaldesas, sino también con las grandes organizaciones filantrópicas estadounidenses y con el sector privado. En 2006, la red se expande con el apoyo de la Clinton Climate Initiative (CCI) y, desde 2013, recibe el apoyo continuado de Bloomberg Philanthropies. Por otro lado, C40 apuesta fuertemente por incentivar la colaboración público-privada, poniendo en contacto las empresas y centros de investigación que desarrollan soluciones con los gobiernos de las ciudades que las requieren. Asimismo, ha contribuido a generar nuevos engranajes conectados con las múltiples expresiones que hoy tiene el multilateralismo. Buen ejemplo de ello es el U20, el espacio que C40 convoca junto con CGLU, a través del cual las principales ciudades del mundo, también las estadounidenses, tratan de situar sus prioridades en la agenda del G-20. En una lógica muy similar operan otras instancias como Resilient Cities Network o el Global Covenant of Mayors (GCoM). La primera, impulsada en 2013 desde la Fundación Rockefeller, pone el foco en apoyar a las ciudades en la definición de planes de resiliencia climática; un tema que preocupa a las ciudades de Estados Unidos, las cuales conforman la sección más importante de la red con 26 miembros. La segunda, el GCoM, se centra en reforzar el liderazgo de las ciudades para el impulso y desarrollo de planes locales de acción climática y transición energética, reuniendo a miles de ciudades de todo el mundo, 185 de las cuales estadounidenses; además, introduce un factor novedoso al combinar el liderazgo de una junta directiva integrada por alcaldes y alcaldesas, una dirección ejecutiva fruto de una alianza entre la Comisión Europea y el filántropo y exalcalde de Nueva York, Michael Bloomberg, con la representatividad de las principales agencias de la Naciones Unidas que trabajan en este ámbito y las principales redes de ciudades. Pero la lógica de colaboración multiactor va más allá de lo climático y se extiende, con el paso de los años, a otros ámbitos en los que las ciudades de Estados Unidos tienen una presencia muy activa. Buen ejemplo de ello lo tenemos en el Mayors Migration Council–la plataforma financiada entre otros por Open Society Foundations y que integra a más de 200 ciudades de todo el mundo, 40 de las cuales estadounidenses– cuyo objetivo es posicionarlas en los debates globales sobre las migraciones.En este contexto, algunas ciudades como Nueva York, Los Ángeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Huston o Boston se encuentran entre los operadores más dinámicos de la diplomacia urbana global; mantienen vínculos con ciudades de todo el mundo, están presentes en los grandes espacios del multilateralismo urbano y participan de las principales redes. Aunque, en relación con esto último, cabe destacar que el municipalismo estadounidense sigue teniendo una presencia muy limitada en las redes tradicionales de raíz europea, aquellas que tienen su origen en el movimiento municipalista del siglo XX, ya que apuesta casi en exclusiva por los espacios multiactor y de nuevo formato. Cabe apuntar, en este sentido, que la transición de la diplomacia urbana estadounidense y global hacia estos nuevos formatos ha venido acompañada por una cohorte de centros de investigación y think tanks, la mayoría con sede en Washington y en otras ciudades estadounidenses. La visión que han tenido la Brookings Institution, el Chicago Council on Global Affairs, el German Marshall Fund o, más recientemente, el Truman Centre for National Policy para construir un relato que justifica y acompaña a las ciudades del país en su acción internacional, ha sido más que notable. Hoy, Estados Unidos y su academia son referentes y lideran la producción de conocimiento, también aplicado, en el ámbito de la diplomacia subnacional. El apoyo del Departamento de Estado: ¿mucho ruido y pocas nueces?Buena parte de este relato formulado desde los escritorios de algunos de los principales think tanks del país ha servido para que la administración federal se posicione y acompañe a ciudades y estados en sus esfuerzos diplomáticos. Se busca no solo reforzar su capacidad de impacto, sino también sumar todos los activos y el potencial de que disponen para complementar la política exterior y de seguridad de Estados Unidos, que hoy es más inclusiva y diversa, aunque también más compleja. Sin embargo, no estamos ante una estrategia nueva. Ya a finales de 1978, durante la administración Carter, se crea por primera vez una oficina encargada de gestionar el vínculo con los gobiernos locales y estatales en el Departamento de Estado. Liderada por el embajador en misión especial W. Beberly Carter Jr., esta oficina tiene un recorrido corto y es suprimida en enero de 1981 tras la elección de Ronald Reagan como presidente. Sus funciones van pasando de un departamento a otro y durante más de treinta años quedan en un plano marginal hasta que, en 2010, en la primera administración Obama, el Departamento de Estado vuelve a apostar por un acercamiento a las ciudades y los estados a través de la denominada Oficina de la Representante Especial para los Asuntos Globales Intergubernamentales, encabezada por Reta Jo Lewis.Dicho acercamiento responde a una lógica clara. Una parte importante de los acuerdos que el Gobierno de los Estados Unidos asume en el seno de las Naciones Unidas y otras instancias del multilateralismo requieren para su implementación de otros actores como las organizaciones de la sociedad civil, el sector privado o las autoridades locales (Klaus y Singer, 2018). Las agendas ligadas al desarrollo sostenible que se impulsan entre 2012 y 2016 son buena muestra de ello y encuentran en el Departamento de Estado un actor comprometido. Destaca la participación del Gobierno estadounidense en foros clave para las ciudades como la COP21 en 2015, en la que se alcanza el Acuerdo de París sobre Cambio Climático, o la Conferencia Habitat III que tiene lugar en 2016 en Quito y en la que se aprueba la Nueva Agenda Urbana. Pero la elección de Donald Trump a finales de ese año pone fin a la apuesta de Estados Unidos por las Naciones Unidas, el multilateralismo, la agenda climática y las ciudades. De hecho, se inaugura una época marcada por el negacionismo climático, el aislacionismo internacional y la confrontación con el mundo urbano y las élites progresistas. En este contexto, resulta significativo que diversos operadores, desde think tanks a miembros del Congreso, sigan reclamando que se recupere el vínculo con la diplomacia subnacional y que ello se institucionalice a través de una acción legislativa que evite que se dependa de los sucesivos cambios políticos.Instituciones tan relevantes como el Council on Foreign Relations o el Truman Centre for National Policy están en esa línea. El primero publica un artículo en 2017 en el que recomienda a la administración del presidente Trump que vuelva a crear una oficina especializada y que despliegue todo el potencial que tiene la diplomacia subnacional del país. Por su parte, el segundo convoca un grupo de expertos de alto nivel que, en 2022, publica un informe en el que no solo se reclama el restablecimiento de una oficina, sino que apuesta por mapear activos, expandir la capacidad de incidencia de las ciudades y los estados en el exterior, así como reforzar las alianzas con think tanks y organizaciones filantrópicas que tan buenos resultados han dado. El presidente Biden y el secretario de estado Blinken se muestran receptivos y, ese mismo año, nombran a la embajadora Nina Hachigian como representante especial para la diplomacia de ciudades y estados. Su designación no es neutra, puesto que, aparte de embajadora de carrera, era la vicealcaldesa responsable de relaciones internacionales de la ciudad de Los Ángeles, uno de los emblemas de la diplomacia urbana norteamericana. Este nombramiento no ha pasado desapercibido en la comunidad internacional. La embajadora ha mantenido un perfil visible y reconocible: ha tenido presencia en foros de muy alto nivel, tanto en el ámbito del multilateralismo –como la COP28 celebrada en Dubái, el Foro Político de Alto Nivel de Nueva York o la Conferencia de Seguridad de Múnich, todos en 2023–, como del municipalismo internacional en sus múltiples expresiones; asimismo, ha reforzado el vínculo con las principales ciudades y estados del país, así como con el cuerpo diplomático, organismos multilaterales, organizaciones filantrópicas, think tanks, centros de investigación especializados y, también, con el sector privado.Sin embargo, y a pesar de que se han lanzado iniciativas tan relevantes como la Cumbre de las Ciudades de Denver que, en 2022, reunió a alcaldes de todo el hemisferio en un excelente ejercicio de diálogo político, o el Programa Cities Forward, un incipiente, aunque prometedor instrumento de apoyo a la cooperación técnica entre ciudades, la realidad es que la representante especial Hachigian opera con recursos presupuestarios y profesionales muy limitados y con una posición en el seno de la Secretaria de Estado todavía periférica. Su equipo se sitúa en la Oficina de Partenariados Globales y todavía no ha logrado reconocimiento orgánico. De hecho, la iniciativa legislativa sobre diplomacia subnacional presentada en 20199 y en 202110 en el Congreso no ha prosperado, pese a los múltiples e importantes apoyos recibidos. Apunte finalNo cabe duda de que la diplomacia subnacional estadounidense ha adquirido en los últimos años una dimensión notoria. Del recorrido intermitente, de corte episódico y mirada doméstica que la caracteriza durante la segunda mitad del siglo XX, ha pasado a una experiencia que se consolida gradualmente y apuesta por nuevos formatos y una agenda de peso. Una agenda que la vincula con algunos de los principales desafíos de la globalización y que la conecta con actores emergentes con una importante capacidad de influencia en el contexto global. Además, el relato que la sustenta es sólido, lo que la posiciona en los grandes debates que cosen lo urbano con lo global.Sin embargo, pese a los esfuerzos y el liderazgo de la representante especial, el apoyo efectivo que el Departamento de Estado presta a las ciudades y a los estados en su acción exterior parece ser todavía más simbólico que efectivo. Los recursos que destina la administración federal son limitados y la apuesta por la diplomacia subnacional depende en muy buena medida de los grandes filántropos. Así, en un contexto de competición por el liderazgo del orden global en el que lo urbano sigue teniendo una fuerte trascendencia, avanzar y profundizar en el compromiso inicial expresado por el presidente Biden y el secretario Blinken tiene todo el sentido y puede traer muchos beneficios. China está en ello. Europa lo estaba, aunque hoy parece mirar hacia otro lugar. Habrá que ver hacia dónde va Estados Unidos, más aún con Donald Trump en el horizonte. Referencias bibliográficasCurtis, Simon. «Global Cities and the Ends of Globalism». New Global Studies, n.º 12 (2018), p. 75-90.Duchacek, Ivo D. «The International Dimension of Subnational Self-Government». Publius, vol. 14, n.º 4 (1984), p. 5-31. Federated States and International Relations, Oxford University Press.Fernández de Losada, Agustí y Galceran-Vercher, Marta. «¿Una Europa a contracorriente? La invisibilidad de las ciudades en las relaciones UE – CELAC». Revista TIP, año 12, n.º 2 (2023), p. 26-38.Klaus, Ian y Singer, Russell. The United Nations. Local Authorities in Four Frameworks. Penn Institute for Urban Research, 2018.Leffel, Benjamin. «Animus of the Underling: Theorizing City Diplomacy in a World Society». The Hague Journal of Diplomacy, n.º 13 (2018), p. 502-522.Sassen, Saskia. «The Global City: Introducing a Concept». Brown Journal of World Affairs, n.º 11 (2005), p. 27-43.Spiro, P.J. «State and Local Anti-South Africa Action as an Intrusion upon the Federal Power in Foreign Affairs». Virginia Law Review, vol. 72, n.º 4 (1986), p. 824. Notes:1- El Global Gateway es la principal estrategia de inversión exterior de la UE.2- «Committee on International Trade and Foreign Relations, Export Development and Foreign Investment: The Role of the States and its Linkage to Federal Action». Washington D.C.: National Governors' Association (1981), p. 1.3- Integrado por la Unión Internacional de Autoridades Locales (IULA, por sus siglas en ingles), la Federación Mundial de Ciudades Unidas, Metropolis, la Cumbre de las Grandes Ciudades del Mundo (Summit) y otras organizaciones regionales.4- «Follow-up to The United Nations Conference on Human Settlements (Habitat II): Local Implementation of the Habitat Agenda, including The Role Of Local Authorities». HS/C/18/3/Add.1 23 (noviembre de 2000).5- Fundada en 1957 en Aix-les-Bains (Francia) e integrada por ciudades hermanadas de todo el mundo.6- Summit Conference of Major Cities of the World (Summit). Nueva York es la única ciudad de los Estados Unidos que está presente en esta red fundada en 1985 y desaparecida en 2005.7- La CGLU es el resultado del proceso de fusión de la IULA y la FMCU.8- Estados Unidos cuenta con 14 ciudades de las 96 que integran el C40. Además, esta plataforma ha estado presidida en dos ocasiones por alcaldes estadounidenses: Michael Bloomberg, alcalde de Nueva York (2010-2013) y Erica Garcetti, alcalde de Los Angeles (2019-2021).9- S.4426 - City and State Diplomacy Act. 116th Congress (2019-2020). Sponsor: Sen. Cristopher Murphy.10- H.R.4526 - City and State Diplomacy Act. 17th Congress (2021-2022). Sponsor: Rep. Ted LieuTodas las publicaciones expresan las opiniones de sus autores/as y no reflejan necesariamente los puntos de vista de CIDOB como institución.DOI: https://doi.org/10.24241/NotesInt.2024/302/es

AMÉRICA LATINA Brasil admite haber espiado dependencias de la embajada de Estados Unidos. Para más información:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/world/americas/brazil-acknowledges-spying-on-diplomats-from-us.html?ref=worldhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24828668http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/world/americas/brazil-spying/index.html?hpt=wo_c2http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/04/actualidad/1383574787_015627.htmlhttp://www.eluniversal.com.mx/el-mundo/2013/impreso/brasil-tambien-ha-espiado-revela-diario-84751.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/ultimas_noticias/2013/11/131105_ultnot_brasil_espionaje_ministro_wbm.shtml Según sondeos Bachelet ganaría en primera vuelta. Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1633786-bachelet-ganaria-en-primera-vuelta Incendio presuntamente intencional daña sede de Bachelet en Chile. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/incendio-presuntamente-intencional-dana-sede-de-michelle-bachelet-en-chile_13160872-4 Los Zelaya buscan volver al poder en Honduras. Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1635144-los-zelaya-buscan-volver-al-poder-en-honduras Elecciones en Argentina: Kirchner derrotada en las legislativas. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/elecciones-en-argentina_13145902-4http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/perfil-del-poltico-argentino-sergio-massa_13153376-4 Gobierno argentino encuentra documentos secretos de la dictadura militar. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/world/americas/argentina-dictatorship-files/index.htmlhttp://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383624001_706481.htmlhttp://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/governo-argentino-encontra-documentos-secretos-da-ditadura-militar-10686218#ixzz2joShCyyF Sismo de 6,5 grados sacude centro de Chile. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/sismo-de-65-grados-en-chile_13153716-4 Diversos medios analizan las nuevas rutas de la cocaína de America Latina. Para más información:http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2013/11/05/en-amerique-latine-les-nouvelles-routes-de-la-cocaine_3508494_3222.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24800089 Accidente de avión en Bolivia deja ocho muertos y 10 heridos. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/accidente-de-avin-en-bolivia-deja-ocho-muertos-y-10-heridos_13159103-4 Ocho países realizan el mayor ejercicio militar aéreo conjunto en Latinoamérica. Para más información:http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383609280_789526.html Ley de medios, un golpe a grupo argentino Clarín. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/ley-de-medios-un-golpe-a-grupo-clarn_13149960-4 Ex presidente de Perú reta a Ollanta a debate. Para más información:http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/el-mundo/2013/reta-ex-presidente-de-peru-a-ollanta-a-debate-963273.html Cuba prohíbe cines privados y venta de artículos importados. Para más información:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24790569http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/cuba-prohbe-cines-3d-privados-y-venta-de-artculos-importados_13157084-4 Guatemala pierde interés en integrarse a Petrocaribe. Para más información:http://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/ultimas_noticias/2013/11/131105_ultnot_guatemala_retira_petrocaribe_jgc.shtml México: miles de personas celebraron el Día de los Muertos. Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1635005-dia-de-los-muertos Maduro decreta el "Día de la Lealtad y el Amor al Comandante Supremo". Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/venezuela-celebrara-el-dia-de-la-lealtad-y-el-amor-al-comandante-hugo-chavez_13160847-4 Venezuela introducirá nuevo tipo de cambio para turistas. Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1634235-venezuela-introducira-nuevo-tipo-de-cambio-para-turistas Nicolás Maduro y la militarización de la sociedad venezolana. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/nicols-maduro-y-la-militarizacin-de-la-sociedad-venezolana_13156470-4 Diversos miedos crecen respecto a capacidad de Brasil de hospedar el próximo Mundial de Fútbol. Para más información:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24828804 16 personas han muerto por dengue en Nicaragua en este año. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/16-muertos-por-dengue-en-nicaragua_13157378-4 13 muertos deja enfrentamiento en Matamoros- México. Para más información:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24803143 Guerrilla colombiana libera rehén estadounidense Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/27/world/americas/colombia-farc-american-hostage-released/index.html Andrés Oppenheimer analiza crecimeinto latinoamericano. Para más información:http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/02/3725607/andres-oppenheimer-world-ranking.html ESTADOS UNIDOS /CANADÁ Las elecciones parciales en EE UU señalan el camino a la Casa Blanca. Para más información:http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2013/11/05/a-new-york-une-revanche-sur-les-riches-avec-bill-de-blasio_3508302_3222.htmlhttp://www.lanacion.com.ar/1635688-nueva-york-elige-nuevo-alcalde-tras-la-era-giuliani-bloomberghttp://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/estados-unidos/los-neoyorquinos-acuden-a-las-urnas-para-elegir-un-nuevo-alcalde_13160877-4http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24813179http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/eleicoes-de-nova-york-poem-fim-era-bloomberg-10687146#ixzz2joSYWLJm http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383677774_704970.htmlhttp://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21588913-young-recall-clinton-boom-not-scandals-clinton-effect El espionaje de Estados Unidos y la agencia NSA sigue generando tensión internacional. Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1634977-la-espia-del-siglo-la-nsa-la-agencia-que-todo-lo-puede-y-todo-lo-vehttp://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/estados-unidos/espionaje-en-estados-unidos-john-kerry-dice-que-el-pas-se-sobrepas_13154238-4 Obama continúa luchando para implementar una reforma en el sistema de salud. Para más información:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24824653 Obama impulsa reforma migratoria ante empresarios. Para más información:http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/el-mundo/2013/obama-impulsa-reforma-migratoria-ante-empresarios-963220.html Caos y muerte en el aeropuerto de Los Ángeles por atacante solitario. Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1634906-detalles-siniestros-del-tiroteo-en-el-aeropuerto-de-los-angeleshttp://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/estados-unidos/evacuan-el-aeropuerto-de-los-ngeles-tras-un-tiroteo_13154760-4 Hallan muerto al autor de disparos en centro comercial de Nueva Jersey. Para más información:http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/atirador-achado-morto-apos-disparar-em-shopping-de-nova-jersey-10687415#ixzz2joSdm0KI http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1635543-encontraron-muerto-al-tirador-de-nueva-jersey-detras-del-shopping-donde-actuohttp://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/estados-unidos/atacante-se-suicida-tras-abrir-fuego-en-centro-comercial-de-nueva-jersey-eeuu_13160298-4 Guantánamo le cuesta a Estados Unidos 200 millones de dólares al año. Para más información:http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383672584_280295.html EUROPA El nacionalismo, la xenofobia y cuestiones migratorias siguen siendo el centro de discusiones en Europa. Para más información:http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/04/21303956-thousands-of-russian-nationalist-marchers-raise-specter-of-anti-immigrant-violence?litehttp://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/03/actualidad/1383507169_514239.htmlhttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/world/europe/russia-nationalists-press-anti-immigrant-agenda.html?ref=world&gwh=A1E63C4610173C0114D1DC8933FD4D60http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/25/world/europe/europe-migration-lampedusa/index.htmlhttp://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/jovens-voltam-as-ruas-da-franca-para-protestar-contra-deportacoes-10691363#ixzz2joUI5dwO Berlín convoca al embajador británico por espionaje. Para más información:http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/11/05/les-grandes-oreilles-britanniques-en-plein-c-ur-de-berli_3508112_651865.htmlhttp://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/embaixada-britanica-em-berlim-teria-sido-usada-para-espionagem-diz-independent-10689217#ixzz2joUDLPDN http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383665180_886243.htmlhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/world/europe/germany-uk-spy-report/index.html?hpt=ieu_c1 Un fuerte temporal azotó el norte de Europa y dejó por lo menos diez muertos Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1633430-un-fuerte-temporal-azoto-el-norte-de-europa-y-dejo-por-lo-menos-diez-muertoshttp://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/europa/temporal-al-norte-de-europa_13146984-4}http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/29/world/europe/europe-severe-weather/index.html Asesinadas a cuchilladas tres personas en el secuestro de un autobús en Noruega. Para más información:http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/04/21308934-three-killed-in-norway-bus-attack?litehttp://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/tres-pessoas-morrem-em-sequestro-de-onibus-na-noruega-10682646#ixzz2joUKrwMp http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24824069http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383606597_727668.htmlhttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/world/europe/norway.html?ref=world&gwh=C4E420C2A5F8E1A70185F1DDB4DDD8AB La violencia en la zona serbia aplasta el proceso de pacificación de Kosovo. Para más información:http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/04/actualidad/1383558828_534421.htmlhttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/world/europe/violence-mars-election-in-kosovo.html?ref=world&gwh=4F5028F6061EA83EFAA63CC3341D932F La Unión Europea retoma el diálogo de adhesión con Turquía tras años de bloqueo. Para más información:http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383672260_160362.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24825002 Diversos medios analizan perspectivas económicas de la Unión Europea. Para más información:http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2013-11/05/content_17083716.htmhttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/06/business/eu-predicts-anemic-growth-and-high-unemployment-in-2014.html?ref=world&gwh=EEBF2AAAE54EA8AEEB44B2816F9BC94Chttp://www.lanacion.com.ar/1634353-el-desempleo-en-la-eurozona-bate-un-nuevo-recordhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24817818 En Ginebra diplomáticos trabajan, sin resultados alentadores, para lograr un acuerdo de paz en Siria. Para más información:http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2013-11/06/content_17083814.htmhttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/06/world/middleeast/syria.html?ref=world Miles de cuerpos son encontrados en fosa común en Bosnia. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/01/world/europe/bosnia-mass-grave/index.html Policía alemana recupera 1.500 obras de arte robadas por los nazis. Para más información:http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/05/21318847-nazi-art-trove-in-german-apartment-includes-previously-unknown-matisse?litehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24818541http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1635322-hallan-arte-saqueado-por-los-nazis-valuado-en-us-1350-milloneshttp://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-germany-nazi-art-20131105,0,4039020.story#axzz2joJTEsVh Integrante de Pussy Riot es transferida a cárcel en Siberia. Para más información:http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/integrante-do-pussy-riot-transferida-para-siberia-10693915#ixzz2joU9cuSt Francia recibe cuerpos de los periodistas franceses asesinados en Mali. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/world/africa/france-mali-journalists-killed/index.html?hpt=wo_c2http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24815614 "CNN" analiza nueva regulación del accionar de la prensa en Reino Unido. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/31/world/europe/uk-press-regulation-reaction/index.html Masiva protesta en Madrid por el fallo que liberó a dos etarras Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1633062-masiva-protesta-en-madrid-por-el-fallo-que-libero-a-dos-etarras Snowden trabajará en una de las principales páginas web de Rusia. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/europa/snowden-trabajar-en-una-web-de-rusia_13152559-4 ASIA- PACÍFICO/ MEDIO ORIENTE "El Tiempo" de Colombia publica desgarrador articulo que cuenta el drama de las niñas novias de Pakistán. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/medio-oriente/nias-de-cinco-aos-en-pakistn-que-estan-casadas_13144836-4 Según la ONU el 40% de la población siria necesita ayuda humanitaria. Para más información:http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-syria-humanitarian-crisis-20131105,0,3474610.story#axzz2joJTEsVhhttp://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383645001_000170.htmlhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/10/31/world/meast/syria-chemical-weapons-opcw/index.htmlhttp://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/onu-40-da-populacao-siria-precisam-de-ajuda-humanitaria-10683911#ixzz2joVz9Zqc http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-iran-us-20131105,0,2110637.story#axzz2joJTEsVhhttp://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/05/21315471-nine-million-syrians-need-humanitarian-aid-due-to-war-un?lite Al menos 40 muertos, incluidos siete niños, deja coche bomba en Siria- Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/medio-oriente/atentado-en-mezquita-de-damasco-en-sirira_13144675-4 El hambre como arma: la nueva táctica del régimen sirio para ganar la guerra. Para más información:http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1634045-el-hambre-como-arma-la-nueva-tactica-del-regimen-sirio-para-ganar-la-guerra Diplomáticos no logran poner fecha para realizar una nueva conferencia de paz para Siria. Para más información:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24827718http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/el-mundo/2013/siria-sin-acuerdo-de-paz-este-anio-onu-963251.htmlhttp://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/conferencia-de-paz-sobre-siria-adiada-10692998#ixzz2joVspJ98 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/world/middleeast/while-few-seem-eager-to-talk-peace-in-syria-un-mediator-wont-stop.html?ref=world Siria destruye instalaciones de producción de armas químicas. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/medio-oriente/armas-qumicas-en-siria_13152535-4http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1634347-siria-destruyo-sus-instalaciones-de-produccion-de-armas-quimicas Muerte del jefe de talibanes dicen que no afectará el proceso de paz en Pakistán. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/01/world/asia/pakistan-violence/index.htmlhttp://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/medio-oriente/muerte-de-talibn-afecto-proceso-de-paz-en-pakistn_13156855-4http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1634761-en-una-ofensiva-con-un-drone-muere-el-lider-taliban-en-paquistanhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/asia/afghanistan-karzai-pakistan-taliban/index.html?hpt=ias_c2 Condenados a muerte 152 acusados por los motines en Bangladesh en 2009. Para más información:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/06/world/asia/152-soldiers-given-death-penalty-over-revolt-in-bangladesh.html?ref=worldhttp://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383650531_119779.htmlhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/world/asia/bangladesh-soldiers-death-sentence/index.html?hpt=ias_c1http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24817887 India lanza su primera nave exploratoria a Marte. Para más información:http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2013-11/06/content_17083798.htmhttp://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/11/05/world/asia/ap-as-india-mars-mission.html?ref=worldhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/asia/india-mars-orbiter/index.html?hpt=wo_c2http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24729073http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-india-launch-mars-mission-20131104,0,3566545.story#axzz2joJTEsVh No hay signos de un proceso de pacificación en Irak. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/meast/iraq-violence/index.htmlhttp://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/28/21139521-war-weary-iraqis-scared-to-leave-homes-as-violence-reaches-levels-not-seen-since-2008?lite Riad arresta a miles de inmigrantes irregulares tras el fin de la amnistía. Para más información:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24810033http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383663779_618475.html Kerry visita Arabia Saudita. Para más información:http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-us-saudi-rift-kerry-visit-20131104,0,6904287.story#axzz2joJTEsVh Gobierno chino detiene a cinco individuos por ataque en la plaza Tiananmen. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/30/world/asia/china---tiananmen---arrests/index.htmlhttp://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/30/21246103-five-arrested-over-tiananmen-square-terrorist-attack-chinese-authorities-say?litehttp://www.lanacion.com.ar/1633422-un-raro-incidente-en-la-plaza-tiananmen-dejo-5-muertos Kerry intenta promover diálogo de paz entre palestinos e israelíes. Para más información:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/06/world/middleeast/kerry-in-mideast-tries-to-prod-israeli-palestinian-talks.html?ref=world Terremoto de magnitud 5.0 sacude a Tokio. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/asia/japan-earthquake/index.html Inundaciones dejan decenas de muertos al este de India. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/26/world/asia/india-floods/index.html Irán ahorca a 16 presuntos rebeldes tras la muerte de 17 policías. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/medio-oriente/irn-ahorca-a-presuntos-rebeldes-tras-la-muerte-de-policas_13144300-4 Irán y un posible acuerdo sobre su plan nuclear. Para más información:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/06/world/middleeast/iran-says-nuclear-deal-is-possible-this-week.html?ref=world ÁFRICA Morsi desafía a los militares en Egipto. Para más información:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/world/middleeast/egypt.html?ref=worldhttp://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2013/11/muhammad-morsi-trialhttp://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/04/actualidad/1383532972_935193.htmlhttp://www.eluniversal.com.mx/el-mundo/2013/impreso/mursi-desafia-al-gobierno-egipcio-8220soy-el-presidente-legitimo-8221-dice-84753.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24801882http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/presidente-deposto-do-egito-passa-noite-em-hospital-de-prisao-10691700#ixzz2joWgr6Zu http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-egypt-morsi-trial-20131105,0,4510471.story#axzz2joJTEsVhhttp://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/02/21288349-two-french-journalists-kidnapped-and-killed-in-northern-mali?chromedomain=worldblog Los rebeldes del M23 anuncian el fin de su lucha armada en el Congo. Para más información:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/06/world/africa/m23-rebels-democratic-republic-congo.html?ref=world&_r=0http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/05/actualidad/1383642968_110904.htmlhttp://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2013/11/05/en-rdc-le-gouvernement-annonce-une-victoire-totale-sur-le-m23_3508091_3212.htmlhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/world/africa/congo-rebels-disarm/index.html?hpt=iaf_c1http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/derrotado-grupo-rebelde-encerra-insurgencia-no-leste-do-congo-1-10691553#ixzz2joWjLxAmhttp://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/05/21318777-congos-defeated-m23-rebels-announce-disarmament-seek-diplomacy?lite Asesinados a tiros dos periodistas franceses secuestrados en el norte de Mali. Para más información:http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2013/11/05/mali-trois-des-ravisseurs-des-journalistes-de-rfi-identifies_3508659_3212.htmlhttp://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/02/actualidad/1383414551_209423.htmlhttp://www.lanacion.com.ar/1634953-secuestran-y-asesinan-a-dos-periodistas-franceses-en-mali "China Daily" analiza el rol de Ruanda conectando a África Para más información:http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2013-11/04/content_17077864.htm Túnez extiende su estado de emergencia. Para más información:http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/africa/tunisia-unrest/index.html?hpt=iaf_c2 28 muertos luego de estampida en Nigeria. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/africa/muertos-en-estampida-en-nigeria_13157615-4 OTRAS NOTICIAS Cada año más de 800.000 personas son víctimas del tráfico humano. Para más información:http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/europa/cada-ao-ms-de-800000-personas-son-vctimas-del-trfico-humano-en-el-mundo_13132278-4 "The Economist" presenta su informe semanal: "Business this week". Para más información:http://www.economist.com/news/world-week/21588134-business-week

AMÉRICA LATINA Rousseff veta la amnistía a los deforestadores de la Amazonia.Para más información: http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2012/05/25/veto-partiel-a-une-loi-reduisant-la-protection-de-l-amazonie-au-bresil_1707787_3222.html http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/2012/05/25/actualidad/1337974767_878665.html http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/25/world/americas/brazil-forest-code/index.html?hpt=wo_bn8 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-brazil-forests-20120529,0,2383595.storyIndígenas en Brasil piden ante Ministerio de Salud mejoras sanitarias.Para más información: http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/indigenas-en-brasil-piden-ante-ministerio-de-salud-mejoras-sanitarias_11908841-47"El País" de Madrid entrevista al ex presidente chileno Patricio Aylwin.Para más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/26/actualidad/1338051981_784799.htmlDevaluaciones en el Cono Sur: Brasil y Argentina luchan de forma opuesta contra las oscilaciones del dólar.Para más información: http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2012/05/25/actualidad/1337961496_336481.html http://www.economist.com/node/21555901 Controles de divisas: el oficialismo argentino cree "un suicidio" liberar dólares.Para más información: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/internacional/noticias/F1EE250C-583F-4E2F-98CF-96BE208BA64A.htm?id={F1EE250C-583F-4E2F-98CF-96BE208BA64A} FreeEconomía de Argentina se 'venezolaniza' tras restricción al dólar.Para más información: http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/economa-de-argentina-se-venezolaniza_11887521-4 FARC anuncia liberación de periodista francés Roméo Langlois.Para más información: http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/farc-anunciam-libertacao-de-jornalista-frances-5035675 http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/27/world/americas/colombia-farc-hostage/index.html?hpt=wo_bn8 http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/internacional/noticias/F9974F49-23DC-492D-8CC3-F453FACD1FD2.htm?id={F9974F49-23DC-492D-8CC3-F453FACD1FD2}http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2012/05/27/les-farc-annoncent-la-liberation-prochaine-de-romeo-langlois_1708053_3222.html Intensas lluvias afectan la costa pacífica mexicana tras rastros del huracán Bud.Para más información: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47522794/ns/weather/#.T8WMKFLMqw4 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-cartel-war-20120528,0,5990329.storyEl cartel Mexicano "Zetas" reescribe la guerra contra el narcotráfico con sangre: se cobró 55000 vidas en los últimos 5 años.Para más información: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47534398/ns/world_news-americas/#.T8WMRlLMqw4Movimiento juvenil 'Yo soy 132' sacude elección presidencial mexicana.Para más información: http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/movimiento-yo-soy-132-sacude-a-mxico_11887421-4 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-election-students-20120525,0,6629519.storyBomba en hotel en la frontera mexicana hiere a 10 personas.Para más información: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/25/world/americas/mexico-violence/index.html?hpt=wo_bn8"The Economist" analiza los derechos y la lucha de los homosexuales en Chile.Para más información: http://www.economist.com/node/21555943"CNN" cubre conmovedora historia de hija de desaparecidos.Para más información: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/25/world/americas/argentina-body-identified/index.html?hpt=wo_c2Estado de emergencia en Perú tras violentos choques entre manifestantes y fuerzas gubernamentales.Para más información: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/world/americas/peru-confronts-wounds-of-civil-war.html?ref=world&gwh=B327C152762581AEE5F5B5F77441F8DB http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-18245924 http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/05/reporting-from-lima-and-bogota-the-peruvian-government-on-tuesday-declared-a-state-of-emergency-in-a-southeastern-provin.html http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/internacional/noticias/64A09014-C569-48BA-A3C8-CA2C016CE10E.htm?id={64A09014-C569-48BA-A3C8-CA2C016CE10E} Haití pagará incentivos a madres que envíen a sus hijos a escuela a través de una inusual vía.Para más información: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-18245302Oposición estudia interpelar al ex Presidente Lula. Para más información: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/_portada/noticias/C8A32906-5B14-4E71-AD3A-A201D804D377.htm?id={C8A32906-5B14-4E71-AD3A-A201D804D377} Honduras es fuertemente afectada por la violencia y el narcotráfico.Para más información: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47583232/ns/world_news-americas/#.T8WMI1LMqw4 http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/23/11824962-hunt-for-drug-trafficker-terrorizes-honduras-village?liteEl rascacielos más alto de América Latina está ahora en Chile.Para más información: http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latinoamerica/rascacielos-en-amrica-latina_11887384-4"Los Angeles Times" analiza cambio económico de la zona de Recife.Para más información: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-brazil-migration-20120524,0,4095576.storyPerspectivas ante la crisis: la falta de innovación es el principal riesgo para las economías de América Latina. Para más información: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/_portada/noticias/ECE4BAE6-8780-495C-B6E2-9BC958EBE50B.htm?id={ECE4BAE6-8780-495C-B6E2-9BC958EBE50B} ESTADOS UNIDOS / CANADÁRomney se convierte oficialmente en el candidato republicano en Estados Unidos.Para más información: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/30/content_15422399.htmhttp://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/estados-unidos/romney-se-convierte-oficialmente-en-candidato-republicano-en-ee-uu_11910083-4 http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/850343.html http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/27/actualidad/1338069757_779175.html http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/estados-unidos/primarias-en-texas-coronaran-a-romney_11893382-4 Diversos medios presentan portales sobre las elecciones en Estados Unidos.Para más información: http://elpais.com/tag/elecciones_eeuu_2012/a/ http://www.economist.com/world/us-elections-2012 http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/_portada/noticias/658CC1D5-B1F1-461C-8380-9A2CA90E907E.htm?id={658CC1D5-B1F1-461C-8380-9A2CA90E907E}Día de los Caídos en Estados Unidos marcado por un expreso patriotismo.Para más información: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/30/content_15420651.htmEstados Unidos expulsó a diplomáticos sirios tras matanza de Hula.Para más información: http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/medio-oriente/pases-expulsaron-a-diplomticos-sirios-en-protesta-por-masacre_11903962-4 http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11933554-us-expels-syria-diplomat-after-un-finds-houla-victims-were-executed?liteTerrorismo: Estados Unidos revela complot iraní para atacar diplomáticos.Para más información: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/internacional/noticias/2DAFABD8-2AA4-4E1C-B786-33025575B939.htm?id={2DAFABD8-2AA4-4E1C-B786-33025575B939} Obama condecora a activistas sociales y personalidades culturales.Para más información: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/850302.htmlObama espera la ayuda de Rusia para sacar a Assad del poder.Para más información: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/world/middleeast/us-seeks-russias-help-in-removing-assad-in-syria.html?ref=world&gwh=90658E13179241E506FC2332C0AC042B"The Economist" analiza situación de la economía canadiense.Para más información: http://www.economist.com/world/americasEUROPAItalia, sacudida por dos fuertes terremotos en diez días.Para más información: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/30/content_15419005.htm http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/850161.html http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11931934-at-least-16-die-as-58-magnitude-earthquake-hits-italy?lite http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/europa/italia-sacudida-por-dos-terremotos-en-diez-dias-_11908781-4 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-italy-quake-20120530,0,7310236.story Países europeos retiran sus misiones diplomáticas en Siria.Para más información: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/30/content_15421937.htm Francia no descarta una intervención armada en Siria.Para más información: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/850265.htmlRusia critica reporte del Departamento de Estado de los Estados Unidos sobre Derechos Humanos.Para más información: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/29/content_15411545.htm Rusia escéptica frente a la violencia gubernamental siria. Para más información: http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/russia-diz-nao-acreditar-que-massacre-foi-obra-do-governo-sirio-5037946#ixzz1w7qg16kP http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18235965 Varios portales presentan noticias sobre la actual situación económica europea.Para más información: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/business/economy/in-the-euro-zone-a-lethal-vacuum-economic-view.html?ref=world&gwh=81BD5CCF2311C5C59EA666F0CA958D7E http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/05/europes-biggest-fear http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2012/05/25/actualidad/1337978907_477033.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/28/business/global/in-euro-zone-a-debate-over-bonds.html?hp&gwh=5898A980191E7A17FA2FD866662ADF60"The Economist" analiza el futuro de la Unión Europea.Para más información: http://www.economist.com/node/21555916Indignación griega por palabras de la directora del FMI.Para más información: http://www.economist.com/node/21555923 http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2012/05/27/lagarde-demande-aux-grecs-de-payer-leurs-impots_1708007_3214.html http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/europa/indignacin-griega-por-palabras-de-christine-lagarde_11893261-4 Berlín trabaja en propuestas concretas de crecimiento y empleo.Para más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/25/actualidad/1337956415_596350.html Merkel y su política para enfrentar la crisis. Para más información: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-europe-merkel-debt-20120523,0,4350685.story España temerosa de una posible corrida bancaria.Para más información: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-spain-banks-20120527,0,5484420.story http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/world/europe/small-and-medium-businesses-suffer-as-spain-bank-loans-shrivel.html?ref=world&gwh=7C182BC6AD40B86611BBD4E3BD3A1468Escocia abre la campaña por la independencia con escaso apoyo.Para más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/25/actualidad/1337946515_309380.html Alexis Tsipras, líder del principal partido griego de izquierda: El hombre que tiene en vilo a Europa. Para más información: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/internacional/noticias/C9E09C46-902D-4B72-BE69-E491B323A291.htm?id={C9E09C46-902D-4B72-BE69-E491B323A291} Primer Ministro francés supera a Hollande en popularidad Para más información: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/internacional/noticias/07B6C2CE-345A-47CC-B3B8-6545FCDE9C7F.htm?id={07B6C2CE-345A-47CC-B3B8-6545FCDE9C7F}Los socialistas franceses buscan una mayoría cómoda en el Parlamento.Para más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/26/actualidad/1338053308_457391.htmlPresidente francés quiere diseñar una nueva arquitectura para la Unión Europea.Para más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/25/actualidad/1337969518_099803.htmlHollande estrena su diplomacia balsámica en Europa.Para más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/24/actualidad/1337878262_956877.html Policía española captura al jefe del aparato militar de ETA y a su lugarteniente en elsuroeste de Francia.Para más información: http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2012/05/27/deux-membres-de-l-eta-arretes-dans-le-sud-ouest_1708059_3214.html http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/_portada/noticias/AA04D948-AA22-42DE-B07D-9D88DFB508B0.htm?id={AA04D948-AA22-42DE-B07D-9D88DFB508B0}Futuro de Assange se define en Londres.Para más información: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/850237.html Unos 100.000 opositores se manifiestan contra Saakashvili en Georgia.Para más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/27/actualidad/1338153555_951248.htmlEl Vaticano prepara más detenciones por la filtración de documentos.Para más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/27/actualidad/1338149211_138021.html Cuarenta personas fueron arrestadas tras protestas por derechos de homosexuales en Moscú.Para más información: http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/quarenta-presos-apos-confusao-em-protestos-por-direitos-gays-em-moscou-5037143#ixzz1w7qcyJkhBlair explicó su relación con magnate Rupert Murdoch.Para más información: http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/europa/relacin-entre-tony-blair-y-el-magnate-rupert-murdoch_11903021-4 http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/internacional/noticias/4B2743A3-7187-47ED-85E8-CDFBF2835211.htm?id={4B2743A3-7187-47ED-85E8-CDFBF2835211} http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/28/2821686/tony-blair-says-he-ducked-fight.html#storylink=cpy Juez Baltasar Garzón cumplirá su pena de inhabilitación en 2022.Para más información: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/internacional/noticias/1C0F5B3C-4550-439B-97CE-9BE8A5C55F8F.htm?id={1C0F5B3C-4550-439B-97CE-9BE8A5C55F8F}Policía danesa arresta a dos personas que planeaban ataque.Para más información: http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11936205-police-arrest-two-men-over-denmark-terror-attack-plot?liteLiberada una joven que vivió ocho años bajo esclavitud en Bosnia.Para más información: http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11939390-teenager-allegedly-held-as-slave-in-bosnia-for-years?lite http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/europa/liberada-una-joven-alemana-mantenida-bajo-esclavitud-en-bosnia_11890061-4 ASIA- PACÍFICO/ MEDIO ORIENTECondena internacional por masacre en Siria.Para más información: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18245225http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/estados-unidos/consejo-de-seguridad-de-la-onu-se-rene-por-masacre-en-siria_11890661-4 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/world/middleeast/syrian-activists-claim-death-toll-in-village-soars.html?ref=world&gwh=67B04E7912451E677DEE6773B7179BAC http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/_portada/noticias/604ED812-6034-469E-B16D-5F0436CD735F.htm?id={604ED812-6034-469E-B16D-5F0436CD735F} http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/conselho-de-seguranca-da-onu-condena-siria-por-massacre-5038570#ixzz1w7qOQ8YB http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/from-massacres-to-shortages-syria-under-pressure/?ref=world&gwh=65F95E3CDDE403D02C5EF1CA3B9FB77E http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/30/content_15418534.htm http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/27/2819716/syria-denies-responsibility-for.html http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/27/actualidad/1338118040_536355.html http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-syria-massacre-20120528,0,7172304.storyKofi Annan llega a Siria para reunirse con Bashar Al Asad.Para más información: http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/medio-oriente/labor-de-kofi-annan-en-siria_11902983-4 http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/28/world/meast/syria-unrest/index.html?hpt=wo_c1 http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/30/content_15418697.htm http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/article/2012/05/27/un-bombardement-de-l-otan-en-afghanistan-tue-8-civils_1708010_3216.html http://www.economist.com/node/21555954 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-syria-diplomacy-20120530,0,7401114.storyIrán construirá otra central nuclear pese a presión internacional.Para más información: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/25/world/meast/iran-nuclear/index.html?hpt=wo_bn11 http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/internacional/noticias/5B3F3499-5FAF-42BB-A84C-7A6B72303A21.htm?id={5B3F3499-5FAF-42BB-A84C-7A6B72303A21} http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/ira-nao-ha-razao-para-parar-de-enriquecer-uranio-20-5038218#ixzz1w7qTLWur http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/28/world/middleeast/iran-wont-halt-production-of-higher-grade-uranium.html?hp&gwh=E2CBDB8DF857566C8E740DEBFE56BACF http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/30/content_15418626.htm http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient/article/2012/05/25/des-traces-d-uranium-enrichi-a-plus-de-20-decouvertes-en-iran_1707751_3218.html http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iran-nuclear-20120526,0,418614.story http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/medio-oriente/irn-construir-otra-central-nuclear_11893162-4 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iran-nuclear-deal-20120523,0,962424.story Incidente en Afganistán: bombardeo de la OTAN mata a ocho civiles.Para más información: http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/oito-civis-morrem-em-ataque-aereo-da-otan-no-afeganistao-5035213#ixzz1w7qb0qol http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/28/internacional/internacional/noticias/1C353FD5-18DD-47E3-8634-E7B66E4080C2.htm?id={1C353FD5-18DD-47E3-8634-E7B66E4080C2} http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/27/actualidad/1338115272_791136.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/world/asia/drug-traffic-remains-as-us-nears-afghanistan-exit.html?hp&gwh=A033766A24E5EC848586C446126DEAB9 http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/30/content_15423180.htm]OTAN mata al número 2 de Al-Qaida en Afganistán.Para más información: http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11931081-number-2-al-qaida-leader-in-afghanistan-killed-in-nato-airstrike?lite Suu Kyi sale de Birmania por primera vez en 24 años.Para más información: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/850197.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18245929Horror en campos de trabajo en Corea del Norte.Para más información: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/27/world/asia/north-korea-labor-camps-hancocks/index.html?hpt=wo_t3Fuego desata tragedia en centro comercial de Qatar.Para más información: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/28/world/meast/qatar-fire/index.html?hpt=wo_c2 http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/internacional/noticias/0103A387-1CEA-45C0-83AB-9861D652D75C.htm?id={0103A387-1CEA-45C0-83AB-9861D652D75C} http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18243136Ex Premier de Japón reconoce responsabilidad estatal por Fukushima. Para más información: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/world/asia/concerns-grow-about-spent-fuel-rods-at-damaged-nuclear-plant-in-japan.html?ref=world&gwh=0974E928305A7AA97DDC39A42499632A http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/_portada/noticias/C1E9801B-5164-4E03-8D86-0B4018172F42.htm?id={C1E9801B-5164-4E03-8D86-0B4018172F42} http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47592012/ns/us_news-environment/#.T8WMZ1LMqw4 http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/28/world/asia/japan-nuclear/index.html?hpt=wo_bn7Pakistán prueba alcance de sus misiles.Para más información: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/29/content_15416524.htmLa caída de Bo Xilai facilita el camino a los reformistas en ChinaPara más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/27/actualidad/1338128173_085638.html Dos tibetanos se inmolaron en las cercanías de un popular templo.Para más información: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/28/world/asia/tibet-immolations-lhasa/index.html?hpt=wo_c2 http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/28/11915646-protesters-set-themselves-on-fire-near-temple-popular-with-tourists-in-tibet-capital?liteChina y sus intentos por controlar internet.Para más información: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47596791/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/#.T8WMVFLMqw4 http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/28/world/asia/china-weibo-rules/index.html?hpt=wo_c2Activista de Bahrain, Al-Khawaja, culmina su helga de hambre.Para más información: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18239695"The Economist" analiza la prosperidad de la economía china.Para más información: http://www.economist.com/node/21555762 Hija de Saddam busca editorial para publicar memorias póstumas. Para más información: http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/internacional/noticias/CFF123E0-22A2-4F0C-AB58-92B7E6CBF863.htm?id={CFF123E0-22A2-4F0C-AB58-92B7E6CBF863} ÁFRICANace en el corazón de África el Estado islámico del Azawad.Para más información: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/world/africa/two-rebel-groups-in-mali-merge-to-form-islamic-state.html?ref=world&gwh=1CCB56E2C53E1879A0018658B454AB65 http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2012/05/27/la-rebellion-touareg-fusionne-avec-un-groupe-islamiste-au-nord-du-mali_1708003_3212.html http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/27/actualidad/1338080043_901876.html http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/27/world/africa/mali-rebel-groups/index.html?hpt=wo_bn10 Violencia tras conocerse oficialmente los resultados electorales en Egipto. Para más información: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-egypt-elections-20120527,0,3534501.story http://diario.elmercurio.com/2012/05/29/internacional/internacional/noticias/B84A3FF7-AF9D-4D9C-A221-C4D5300B5C97.htm?id={B84A3FF7-AF9D-4D9C-A221-C4D5300B5C97} http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/28/world/meast/egypt-election/index.html?hpt=wo_c2 http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/africa/prenden-fuego-a-oficinas-de-candidato-a-la-presidencia-en-egipto_11900801-4 http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2012/05/egypts-presidential-election http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/world/middleeast/some-in-egypt-disdain-both-candidates.html?ref=world&gwh=DF70159F604EFCBA310372F56CA02562 http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2012/05/26/egypte-le-candidat-chafiq-promet-ne-pas-revenir-a-l-ere-moubarak_1707941_3212.htmlSiete años de prisión por corrupción para el jefe de Gabinete de MubarakPara más información: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/05/27/actualidad/1338147851_363736.htmlGrupo islámico Boko Haram genera terror en Nigeria. Para más información: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-nigeria-boko-haram-20120527,0,572578.storyExplosión en centro comercial en Nairobi-Kenia.Para más información: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-18232621 http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/28/world/africa/kenya-explosion/index.html?hpt=wo_bn10 http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/05/nairobi-kenya-blast-called-bomb-attack.html http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-05/29/content_15408978.htmAgencia de Naciones Unidas propone a Mugabe como "líder para el turismo" .Para más información: http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11940600-un-agency-appoints-mugabe-as-a-leader-for-tourism?lite OTRASONU rinde homenaje a 112 caídos en servicio en 2011.Para más información: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/850190.html"The Economist" presenta su informe semanal: "Business this week".Para más información: http://www.economist.com/node/21555625

466 p., illustrated, 30 cm. ; Emilia Serrano, the Baroness of Wilson (1834?-1922) was a Spanish writer who produced historical and sociological works, as well as novels, literary translations, and guides to conduct for young women. The book this excerpt was taken from is considered her most ambitious work. In it she displays an encyclopedic range of interests, including history, ethnology, climatology, and botany, and it clearly reflects her three overriding passions: literature, traveling, and a fascination with the Americas. In this Introduction, she provides autobiographical information about her personal life, how she became fascinated with the Americas, and her controversial decision to travel to the Americas alone. ; This document is an English translation of the Introduction from "América y sus mujeres." Translated by Lorena Gauthereau-Bryson. The language of the original document is Spanish.

466 p., illustrated, 30 cm. ; Serrano de Wilson (1834?-1922) was a Spanish writer who produced historical and sociological works, as well as novels, literary translations, and guides to conduct for young women. In this, her most ambitious work, Serrano de Wilson displays an encyclopedic range of interests, including history, ethnology, climatology, and botany, and it clearly reflects her three overriding passions: literature, traveling, and a fascination with the Americas. The product of firsthand research conducted during two voyages, over the course of which she traveled, unaccompanied for the most part, to every country in Latin America, including extended periods of time in Argentina, Peru, Ecuador, Cuba, and Mexico. The length of these voyages kept her away from her native Spain for close to 15 years. Serrano de Wilson employs a geographical approach to handling the vast amount of material at her disposal, describing the landscapes, detailing the flora and fauna unique to each place, the indigenous peoples, the European settlers, as well as current politics and literature. She visits haciendas in Brazil and Argentina, hikes the Andes in Ecuador and Chile, collects antiquities in Mexico and beside the shores of Lake Titicaca in Peru, and enjoys the company of fellow writers in literary salons throughout the continent. An interesting feature of her methodology is her reliance on a network of female friends with shared intellectual habits and interests, including Juana Gorriti, Mercedes Cabello de Carbonera, and Soledad Acosta de Samper, all of whom were invaluable in providing Serrano de Wilson invitations to historical sites and archives which her position as a single woman would have normally barred her access to. She frankly acknowledges the dependency of intelligent women on such networks of 'sisterhood' and endorses them as a model for enterprising women. While the majority of the work deals with Latin America, early chapters discuss stereotypes, both racial and gender, popular in European intellectual circles, while a later chapter describes her visit to the United States, specifically New York City and Washington, D.C.

466 p., illustrated, 30 cm. ; Serrano de Wilson (1834?-1922) was a Spanish writer who produced historical and sociological works, as well as novels, literary translations, and guides to conduct for young women. In this, her most ambitious work, Serrano de Wilson displays an encyclopedic range of interests, including history, ethnology, climatology, and botany, and it clearly reflects her three overriding passions: literature, traveling, and a fascination with the Americas. The product of firsthand research conducted during two voyages, over the course of which she traveled, unaccompanied for the most part, to every country in Latin America, including extended periods of time in Argentina, Peru, Ecuador, Cuba, and Mexico. The length of these voyages kept her away from her native Spain for close to 15 years. Serrano de Wilson employs a geographical approach to handling the vast amount of material at her disposal, describing the landscapes, detailing the flora and fauna unique to each place, the indigenous peoples, the European settlers, as well as current politics and literature. She visits haciendas in Brazil and Argentina, hikes the Andes in Ecuador and Chile, collects antiquities in Mexico and beside the shores of Lake Titicaca in Peru, and enjoys the company of fellow writers in literary salons throughout the continent. An interesting feature of her methodology is her reliance on a network of female friends with shared intellectual habits and interests, including Juana Gorriti, Mercedes Cabello de Carbonera, and Soledad Acosta de Samper, all of whom were invaluable in providing Serrano de Wilson invitations to historical sites and archives which her position as a single woman would have normally barred her access to. She frankly acknowledges the dependency of intelligent women on such networks of 'sisterhood' and endorses them as a model for enterprising women. While the majority of the work deals with Latin America, early chapters discuss stereotypes, both racial and gender, popular in European intellectual circles, while a later chapter describes her visit to the United States, specifically New York City and Washington, D.C. ; This document is an English translation of the "América y sus mujeres." Translated by Lorena Gauthereau-Bryson. The language of the original document is Spanish.

Le rapport de soutenance rend tout d'abord hommage à la qualité du dossier présenté à l'appui de la demande de l'habilitation à diriger des recherches: un mémoire substantiel, deux livres (en français et en anglais), une quarantaine d'articles publiés dans des revues reconnues, des contributions originales à des ouvrages collectifs, ainsi que de nombreuses communications à des réunions scientifiques internationales. Les ouvrages d'Albert Doja sont très variés même s'ils sont essentiellement consacrés à l'Albanie et à la région balkanique. Il y a beaucoup de thèmes importants abordés et une quantité significative de propositions. C'est un corpus très riche, plein d'idées intéressantes qui poussent à repenser les concepts de base. Les rapporteurs notent qu'il y a deux thématiques organisent le dossier, celui de la construction culturelle de la personne (morphologie sociale, parenté et relations de genre) et celui des relations interethniques élargies aux champs de la religion, de la nation et de la folklorisation des traditions culturelles et notamment des conflits qu'enclenchent tous ces éléments. Sa thèse de Doctorat qui était en grande partie basée sur les données folkloriques et ethnographiques cherchait à comprendre la constitution de la personne en Albanie en utilisant des bases d'interprétation anthropologique où les influences les plus explicites sont les œuvres de Lévi-Strauss. De la construction de la personne le regard s'est très naturellement porté vers les valeurs et les traits structurels qui façonnent la société albanaise (un système lignager, l'idéologie du sang, l'hypertrophie du sentiment fraternel, le sens de l'honneur, la codification de l'amitié, etc.). Ces approfondissements et ces élargissements de la problématique de départ ont abouti, par touches successives, à un riche tableau où l'étude de la socialisation, de la formation de personne, la nature de la culture régionale, la structure sociale, la construction de l'honneur, les pratiques religieuses par rapport à la distribution linguistiques contribuent à un effort orienté vers une compréhension de la spécificité des sociétés et des cultures albanaises et sud-est européennes. De là il se met à analyser les formes et la dynamique de l'identité ethnique, nationale et le conflit. Son anthropologie représente une excellente combinaison qui devrait être utile dans la recherche régionale. Il s'agit d'une anthropologie sociale et historique des 'traditions' mais dans la mesure où elle se situe dans un balancement entre ethnie et nation on peut considérer qu'il s'agit d'une anthropologie du juste milieu qui d'ailleurs ne sacrifie nullement l'actualité comme en témoignent les analyses consacrées au phénomène des viols ou encore à l'exercice démocratique. Enfin il discute les questions plus contemporaines qui relèvent des transformations politiques et sociales dans la région, l'introduction de la démocratie, la migration et l'intégration. Le mémoire distingue d'ailleurs très bien les champs de recherche et les champs d'implication. Dans ce parcours Albert Doja démontre sa maîtrise de la région du point de vue historique, linguistique et culturelle en même temps qu'il intègre en grande partie ces connaissances dans les discussions théoriques contemporaines dans la discipline. Catherine Quiminal (Professeur, Paris VII) note que ce dossier met en évidence de manière convaincante l'intérêt, pour l'anthropologie, d'aborder des terrains concernant des sociétés du sud-est européen, puisque l'auteur revendique également une démarche comparative peu développée par l'anthropologie de l'Europe. De tels terrains permettent de "passer de l'Autre primitif ou archaïque, conventionnel ou populaire, en situation néo-coloniale ou dans une communauté locale, vers l'étude des processus dynamiques et transactionnels de transformation sociale, de modernisation et de globalisation". Albert Doja y fait état des connaissances historiques, géographiques, ethnologiques concernant la région. Il en restitue de manière critique les conditions de production et de reproduction et les limites. L'histoire des cultures du Sud-Est européen nécessite, selon l'auteur, une nouvelle formulation, un regard orienté sur la construction des identités, les transformations familiales et sociales. Le mode d'analyse proposé pour aborder des sociétés que l'auteur préfère qualifier de "conventionnelles" plutôt que de traditionnelles, s'éloigne volontairement de la monographie d'un groupe artificiellement isolé à la recherche de survivances, pour se focaliser sur les institutions centrales et les valeurs dominantes. Anthropologue né en Albanie, formé en France, ayant un engagement maintenu pendant plusieurs années dans des relations personnelles étroites en Europe du sud-est aussi bien qu'en Europe de l'Ouest, vivant et travaillant depuis de longues années en France, en Grande Bretagne et en Irlande, il se trouve dans une position propice à un type de recherche de terrain diachronique et comparative. Jonathan Friedman (Directeur d'études, EHESS) note également que dans sa tentative de caractériser la région balkanique comme située entre deux complexes de civilisation en réponse aux discussions classiques basées sur la notion de région croisée entre l'orient et l'occident et le réductionnisme que cela peut entraîner, Albert Doja propose de redéfinir la région en termes de frontières plus fluides et de co-existence entre peuples différents. Ici il prend en compte à la fois la culture ou la société dans le sens objectiviste de l'observateur et l'identité culturelle ou ethnique qui est pratiquée dans les interactions entre membres de différentes populations. Sa discussion de la méthode est fort intéressante et reflète le parcours de sa formation. Il insiste sur la nécessité de combiner des méthodes différentes, historiques et comparatives, ethnographie, analyses de textes et recherches sur les documents archivés. Jean Copans (Professeur, Paris V) note que Albert Doja passe d'une folkloristique classique de recueil des traditions à une anthropologie politique ou politologie géostratégique plurinationale. La question est d'importance car on doit se demander quelles sont les méthodologies de terrain les plus adéquates à l'étude des relations interethniques et des valeurs culturelles. Peut-on enquêter directement sur le processus de construction de l'ethnicité, peut-on observer en direct sa genèse interactive ou faut-il attendre un degré de fusion, de formalisation et de verbalisation pour la saisir et puis la déconstruire? Si les africanistes sont obsédés par cette question, pour Albert Doja il s'agit d'une nouvelle théorie, assez subtile et complexe. L'ethnicité est une question de point de vue, de position que redouble ici le problème de l'observation de la violence. L'anthropologie du génocide, de la souffrance et de l'affliction est à la mode mais c'est la mémoire qui joue le rôle central, de même que c'est le processus d'observation qui fournit des réponses empiriques aux nouvelles questions décisives qui mettent en cause les méthodes de la discipline. Michael Herzfeld (Professeur, Harvard University), note également qu'on ne peut qu'être profondément frappé par la grande envergure des observations d'Albert Doja sur l'ethnographie albanaise et par l'érudition qui les soutient. On constate, bien sûr, que les données dont Albert Doja traite sont riches d'informations et d'aperçus. Il est allé bien loin au-delà de la prospective limitée des chercheurs antérieurs à lui. Il a mené de sérieuses enquêtes empiriques et fait preuve qu'il possède suffisamment la capacité de fournir des descriptions nuancées des faits sociaux. Souvent il révèle une sensibilité ethnographique presque éclatante, là où on est peut-être le moins préparé à le rencontrer, comme c'est le cas notamment dans son article sur les problèmes de stabilité au Kosovo, là où une petite scène de tension et de méprise dans un café Internet révèle l'univers du "transnational" dans toute sa complexité. Mais ce qui sauve les analyses des études folkloriques traditionnelles (isolation intellectuelle et stigmatisation par l'association avec des nationalismes exceptionnellement durs et revanchistes) consiste avant tout en deux points forts: sa connaissance, évidemment bien profonde et circonstanciée, de l'histoire des théories les plus importantes en anthropologie sociale d'un côté, et sa méfiance soit du nationalisme soit des critiques souvent trop simplistes avancées par des savants qui n'avaient peut-être pas considéré que le modèle d'une identité construite peut devenir abusive dans le cas où elle sert à soutenir des idéologies identitaires opposées selon la rhétorique de l'opposition entre le faux et le réel. En ce qui concerne le champ des ethnicités comparées de l'Europe, Jean Copans note que des nationalités de l'empire austro-hongrois on glisse à l'ethnicisme avec des intellectuels organiques (et parfois des ethnologues) tout aussi responsables (et coupables!). Michael Herzfeld aussi mentionne les observations d'Albert Doja sur les points de parallélisme entre la politique ethnique et le comportement des savants, pour noter que celle-ci est une comparaison qui a pu achever un très haut niveau d'importance analytique. Le rapporteur est bien d'accord avec les observations d'Albert Doja, car ce qui est d'une importance capitale est le fait qu'il réussit à nous rappeler que les savants font déjà partie de ce qu'ils étudient, qu'ils le veuillent ou non. Il faut souligner que bien que d'autres ethnologues aient déjà établi des rapports, soit historiques, soit formels, entre le nationalisme et l'anthropologie, Albert Doja achève sur ce point une formulation suffisamment généralisable et heuristiquement suggestive pour qu'on puisse en dériver des projets "de terrain" à l'avenir. À ce propos Christian Bromberger (Professeur, Université de Provence) et Jonathan Friedman (Directeur d'études, EHESS) notent tous les deux que les interprétations des violences et des atrocités sexuelles dans les conditions de conflit interethnique pendant les guerres de Bosnie et du Kosovo sont fort intéressantes. Jean Copans (Professeur, Paris-V) estime aussi que l'hypothèse d'Albert Doja sur l'équivalence culturelle des modèles de lecture du viol par la victime et par celui qui l'a perpétré est pertinente. Albert Doja montre comment la pollution du sang dans des sociétés qui en ont érigé la pureté en valeur dominante vise et "amène nécessairement le désordre et l'éclatement du système social et du groupe tout entier". La substitution d'une ligne paternelle externe à la ligne établie par le mariage par l'agression désorganise profondément l'ordre parental de la société locale. Jean-Pierre Warnier (Professeur, Paris V) note à ce propos que les cadres d'analyse proposés par Albert Doja relèvent du structuralisme (Hage, Héritier, Testart, Douglas) en termes de catégories disjonctives et de rituels par rapport aux représentations des humeurs corporelles et à la réalité physique de l'agression–intrusion. Le cadre théorique structuraliste est traditionnellement considéré rebelle à l'analyse politique, mais le mérite d'Albert Doja est de montrer que la "culture" des protagonistes permet de comprendre l'impact ravageur du viol sur la subjectivité des acteurs, situant le viol dans un rapport de force et de pouvoir - pouvoir qui, comme le répétait Michel Foucault, s'adresse toujours au corps dans sa matérialité. Dans ses analyses des causes des viols, Albert Doja est convaincu que l'explication doit être cherchée dans le fait que les valeurs d'honneur sont mises en avant par une sorte d'agencéité (agency) politique et instrumentale. Par ailleurs, les rapports de pouvoir ne sont pas impliqués dans la re-traditionalisation des valeurs. C'est le changement des structures macrosociologiques qui alimente cette re-traditionalisation et c'est l'usage instrumental des valeurs identitaires et des valeurs morales et sociales de l'honneur ou de la religion qui fait que le viol soit aussi efficace comme une arme de purification ethnique. Ainsi on peut suggérer que le viol a une fonction politique immédiate. Jonathan Friedman note qu'un point bien fort dans les recherches d'Albert Doja consiste à démontrer l'importance de l'anthropologie dans la compréhension des conflits contemporains dans la région balkanique. Il démontre que la logique des rapports familiaux, basé sur un modèle fortement patriarcal où l'honneur est central et génératif des feuds (vendetta) qui bloque la résolution des conflits sans la violence. Cette logique lie la production des sujets masculins à la politique ethnique. C'est une contribution importante à une discussion de la guerre qui est souvent limitée à des concepts généraux comme le nationalisme ou les régimes corrompues qui utilisent leurs propres populations pour atteindre des buts privés. Dans sa discussion des rapports complexes entre l'État, les discours nationalistes et la façon dont ils sont assimilés en bas de l'ordre politique, Albert Doja suggère le rôle important de la mondialisation dans le déclenchement de la fragmentation à l'intérieur de l'État-nation. Il discute la façon dont se développent les débats entre Albanais et Serbes à propos du statut historique de Kosovo, où les intellectuels ont joué un rôle important. Certes Albert Doja construit son champ de manière historique, anthropologique et comparative. Même si cette comparaison s'arrête essentiellement aux frontières des Balkans, Jean Copans ajoute toutefois que par ailleurs il nous propose une théorie générale de 1'ethnicité. Il faut donc discriminer entre généralisation et comparaison. Or les sociétés des Balkans sont des sociétés de l'histoire écrite ce qui modifie les perceptions anthropologiques habituelles. Nous ne sommes pas dans le contexte post-colonial habituel mais le choix de propositions cognitivistes ne débouche heureusement pas sur des propositions essentialistes ou instrumentalistes, ni sur des réactions de mode qui mondialiseraient abusivement l'expérience récente des Balkans. Christian Bromberger note à ce propos que l'auteur, traitant du thème des identités, renvoie dos à dos les "primordialistes" et les "instrumentalistes" en notant justement que même si "les attributs culturels tenus pour être la marque distinctive d'un groupe peuvent faire l'objet de transformations, de substitutions, de réinterprétations, cela ne conduit pas à poser que l'identification ethnique peut s'exercer à partir de n'importe quoi". Jonathan Friedman ajoute aussi que la discussion d'Albert Doja sur les rapports entre l'ethnicité instrumentale et primordialiste est importante, même si elle reprend partiellement des discussions connues ailleurs aussi. Le fait que la manipulation de l'identité reste toujours dans des limites encadrées par une espace identitaire qui a ses propres limites implique que l'instrumentalisme est toujours limité et que "on ne peut s'identifier à partir de n'importe quoi". Mais Albert Doja marque un point important quand il soutient que ces deux concepts sont mieux compris si on les considère comme des aspects d'un même phénomène. Jean-Pierre Warnier remarque que la question du pouvoir et des rapports politiques apparaît souvent dans les travaux d'Albert Doja, mais là où il se rapproche le plus d'une analyse politique, c'est dans l'article «The politics of religion». D'un point de vue théorique, il ne semble pas suffisant de renvoyer dos à dos primordialistes et constructivistes, comme le fait pourtant le candidat. C'est l'analyse du pouvoir qui permet de trancher entre les deux, ainsi que l'a suggéré Jean-François Bayart dans son livre L'Illusion identitaire. A cette question concernant le pouvoir, Albert Doja répond que c'est précisément parce la question du pouvoir et des rapports politiques est centrale à l'ensemble de ses travaux qu'on devrait considérer plutôt réducteur de la traiter séparément. Le candidat dit faire une distinction entre pouvoir et politique et qu'il s'intéresse à l'usage instrumental des valeurs morales et sociales de l'identité. Catherine Quiminal note à ce propos que les processus que Albert Doja qualifie de construction identitaire se développent en fonction d'enjeux sociaux et politiques circonstanciés parce que définis par des rapports de force internes aux sociétés considérées et par les relations plaçant ces dernières sous la dépendance d'autres sociétés, rapports et relations qui sont générateurs de domination, de discriminations et de résistances. Ces relations ont sûrement des incidences sur la compréhension de ce que Albert Doja appelle indifféremment dynamique des valeurs culturelles ou dynamique culturelle des valeurs sociales. Christian Bromberger note également l'importance des processus de construction et d'affirmation des identités collectives, ainsi abordées par Albert Doja, dans une région marquée par une forte fragmentation des appartenances confessionnelles. L'auteur souligne le rôle des affiliations religieuses (le bektachisme par exemple) dans la construction des nationalismes et dans les phénomènes de résistance qui ont ponctué l'histoire complexe de l'Albanie et du sud-est de l'Europe. Il analyse, de façon éclairante et à diverses échelles chronologiques, les phénomènes de conversion et de reconversion religieuses dont l'Albanie a été le théâtre. Également fructueuse est pour Michael Herzfeld l'explication que Albert Doja suggère de l'islamisation compréhensive d'une grande partie de la population albanaise. Il étend son modèle aux cas des bosniaques, et on ne peut que regretter qu'il n'est pas encore arrivé à comparer d'autres cas, tel celui de la Crète (où la cruauté des autorités vénitiennes assurèrent leur défaite par les Turcs et donc fournit un cas extrêmement clair de ce que Albert Doja indique pour l'Albanie). Quelle ironie historique que ce soit l'Église catholique qui, par l'oppression des populations orthodoxes, ait déclenché la réaction par lequel l'Islam gagna son importance actuelle en Albanie, même si c'est dans ses aperçus historiques plutôt qu'ethnographiques où Albert Doja semble achever son plus haut niveau de perspicacité! Catherine Quiminal souligne aussi l'hypothèse suivante proposée par l'auteur: "Le développement des pratiques religieuses et des mouvements successifs de conversion et reconversion parmi les Albanais. . . se laisse interpréter comme des expressions de conflit et de protestation, conduisant aux mouvements nationaux et au nationalisme". L'étude de la dynamique de ces mouvements a permis à l'auteur de "comprendre la relativité des conflits politico-religieux et ethnico-nationaux. . . et de mettre la signification des changements d'appartenance religieuse dans la perspective de négociation et de redéfinition des identités sociales". La religion s'ethnicise à des fins de rassemblement. Nation, nationalisme et citoyenneté sont des notions également appréhendées par l'auteur comme constructions identitaires et idéologiques. L'ethnicité est considérée finalement comme "une forme et une métaphore de l'activité et de l'organisation sociale". Jonathan Friedman note aussi que la discussion par Albert Doja de la démocratisation possible de l'Albanie est assez prometteuse, même si elle est encore à ses débuts. Il est d'accord avec l'auteur qui se demande dans quels sens peut se produire une démocratisation dans une société où un affaiblissement de l'État débouche sur un renforcement des rapports parentaux et claniques, où les hiérarchies clientélistes sont à l'ordre du jour ainsi que l'identité du type clanique dominante. Mais on peut aussi suggérer que c'est au contraire les soi-disant institutions démocratiques qui sont adaptées à des stratégies "conventionnelles", semblable à la démocratie africaine (ou du moins congolaise). En fin de compte, les ouvrages d'Albert Doja représentent un corpus marqué d'une vaste érudition qui suscite de nouveaux points de départ pour une ethnologie comparative de la région balkanique. Avant tout, il a trouvé les moyens théoriques pour ériger un pont analytique entre les expériences sociales des gens ordinaires et les structures politiques des entités nationales construites en leur nom et, selon les discours officiels, en accord avec leur vie sociale et culturelle. Pour conclure, le rapport de soutenance revient sur l'originalité du dossier "en rendant hommage au travail accompli par Albert Doja", et souligne "l'intérêt d'une discussion entre anthropologues européanistes et anthropologues des aires culturelles plus traditionnelles de la discipline", aussi bien que "l'impression positive qui se dégage de cette œuvre riche et d'un parcours où chaque étape inaugure un renouvellement des perspectives et des thématiques".

Freizeitverhalten, Freundschaften, Familie, Gefühle und Überzeugungen, Identität, derzeitige Situation und Berufsausbildung von Jugendlichen. Geschwistersituation.

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1. Fragebogen Jugendliche:

Themen: Freizeitverhalten: Häufigkeit ausgewählter Freizeitaktivitäten (Verwandtenbesuch, Kino, Ausgehen, Lesen, Sportverein oder Musikverein, Konzert, Museum, Zeitunglesen); Stundenaufwand an einem typischen Schultag für Fernsehen, Chatten, Arbeiten im Haushalt, Video oder Computerspiele allein und mit anderen.

Freundschaften: Ethnischer Hintergrund der Freunde; interethnischer Kontakt mit Menschen ausgewählter ethnischer Herkunft; Migrationshintergrund; Wichtigkeit von gleicher Bildung, Religion und ethnischem Hintergrund beim eigenen Partner für den Befragten persönlich und für dessen Eltern; fester Freund oder Freundin; Angaben zu Partner bzw. Partnerin: derzeitige Tätigkeit, besuchter Schultyp bzw. höchster Bildungsabschluss, ethnischer Hintergrund, Konfession, Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Partner bzw. die Partnerin; Beziehungsbeginn (Beziehungsdauer); Kontext des Kennenlernens (z.B. durch Freunde); Partner bzw. Partnerin lebt in derselben Nachbarschaft; Eltern haben Kenntnis von der Beziehung bzw. haben den Partner bzw. die Partnerin bereits getroffen; Eltern kannten sich bereits vor Beziehungsbeginn; familiäre Beziehungen: Interesse der Familie an Gesprächen über den Freund bzw. die Freundin; elterliche Einmischung: Forderung nach Informationen über Aktivitäten und Aufenthaltsort bei Unternehmungen mit dem Freund bzw. der Freundin, Forderung nach sofortigem Kennenlernen des Freundes bzw. der Freundin; erwartete Heirat; derzeitiger Freund bzw. Freundin ist erste feste Beziehung; Anzahl der vorherigen Freunde bzw. Freundinnen; Familie lehnt Beziehung ab; erwartete Offenheit der Familie bei ablehnender Haltung dem Freund bzw. der Freundin gegenüber; Familie überlässt Beziehungsentscheidungen dem Befragten; arrangierte Beziehungen durch die Familie; Forderung der Familie nach Abbruch der Beziehung bei fehlender Sympathie; präferiertes Heiratsalter; gewünschte Kinderzahl. Familie: Migrationshintergrund der biologischen Eltern; Besuchshäufigkeit im Herkunftsland der Eltern in den letzten 12 Monaten; Erwerbsstatus der Eltern; Häufigkeit von Taschengeld und Höhe des Taschengeldes.

Gefühle und Überzeugungen: Lebenszufriedenheit (Skalometer); Diskriminierung: Sympathie-Skalometer für ausgewählte Herkunftsgruppen; Rollenverständnis.

Selbsteinschätzung der Deutschkenntisse (Sprechen, Schreiben); nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Selbsteinschätzung des Gesundheitszustands im Vergleich zu Gleichaltrigen; delinquentes Verhalten in den letzten drei Monaten: mutwilliges Zerstören fremden Eigentums, Stehlen, Tragen von Messer oder Waffe, Trunkenheit); Häufigkeit von warmer Mahlzeit und Frühstück; Häufigkeit von Alkoholkonsum, Sport, Zigarettenkonsum und Drogenkonsum; Körpergröße in Zentimeter und Gewicht in Kilogramm; präferierte und realistische Bildungsaspiration; Zukunftserwartungen hinsichtlich Aufenthalt in Deutschland, Heirat, Kinder und Gesundheitszustand.

Derzeitige Situation: Schulabschluss während des letzten Schuljahres; Noten in Mathematik, Deutsch und Englisch im Abschlusszeugnis; Gesamtnote im Abschlusszeugnis; derzeitige Situation; derzeit besuchte Schulform; Zweig der kooperativen Gesamtschule; derzeit besuchte Klassenstufe; Häufigkeit devianten Verhaltens in der Schule (Auseinandersetzungen mit Lehrern, erfahrene Bestrafung, unerlaubtes Fernbleiben vom Unterricht, Zuspätkommen); Selbstwirksamkeit; Einstellung zur Schule: Wichtigkeit guter Schulnoten.

Berufsausbildung: Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS); Ausbildungsdauer; Erreichen eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Höhe der Ausbildungsvergütung pro Monat (kategorisiert); Berufsbezeichnung des derzeitigen Berufs oder Jobs; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommens (kategorisiert); Art des Arbeitsvertrages; Arbeitsbeginn in diesem Beruf (Monat und Jahr); Job ist erste Arbeitsstelle seit Verlassen der Schule; Berufsbezeichnung der ersten Arbeitsstelle (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS); aktive Suche nach einer Ausbildungs- oder Arbeitsstelle; Berufsbezeichnung des Wunschberufs (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode; Interviewdatum; Flaggenvariable (Interviewdatum abgeleitet vom Eingangsdatum der Kontaktinformationen); Data release version.

Abgeleitete Indizes: Berufsvercodung gemäß ISCO (International Standard Classification of Occupations) 1988; SIOPS (nach Ganzeboom); ISEI (nach Ganzeboom).

2. Fragebogen Geschwister: Anzahl Geschwister insgesamt; für bis zu 5 Geschwister wurde erfragt: Bruder oder Schwester; Alter; derzeitige Situation bzw. Tätigkeit; besuchte Schulform; Bildungsabschluss; Berufsbezeichnung (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode des Hauptinterviews; Interviewdatum; Flaggenvariable (Interviewdatum abgeleitet vom Eingangsdatum der Kontaktinformationen); Data release version.

Abgeleitete Indizes: Berufsvercodung gemäß ISCO (International Standard Classification of Occupations) 1988; SIOPS (nach Ganzeboom); ISEI (nach Ganzeboom).

3. Tracking Datensatz: Individuelle Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; ID der Klasse und der Schule; Erhebungseinheit auf Klassenebene und Schulebene Welle 2; Land; Stratum der Schule (Migrantenanteil); Schultyp; Bundesland; Teilnahmestatus aus Wellen 1 bis 4.

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Themen: Derzeitige Situation:
Schule: Schulabschluss oder Ausbildungsabschluss im letzten Jahr; erreichter Ausbildungsabschluss und Bezeichnung des Abschlusses; Ausbildungsdauer; Abschlussnote; Erreichen eines Schulabschlusses gleichzeitig mit der Ausbildung; Art des Schulabschlusses; Noten in Mathematik, Deutsch und Englisch im Abschlusszeugnis; Gesamtnote im Abschlusszeugnis; derzeitige Tätigkeit; derzeit besuchte Schulform; Zweig der kooperativen Gesamtschule; derzeit besuchte Klassenstufe; Häufigkeit devianten Verhaltens in der Schule (Auseinandersetzungen mit Lehrern, erfahrene Bestrafung, unerlaubtes Fernbleiben vom Unterricht, Zuspätkommen); Selbstwirksamkeit; Einstellung zur Schule; Wichtigkeit guter Schulnoten.

Berufsausbildung: Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs; Gesamtdauer der Ausbildung; Erreichen eins zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommen (kategorisiert).

Studium: Jahr des Studienbeginns; Art der Hochschule; Studienfächer im Haupt- und Nebenfach; voraussichtlicher Studienabschluss; Studiengang mit Zulassungsbeschränkung oder Auswahlverfahren; Bezug von BAföG, Bildungskredit oder Stipendium; Gesamthöhe der Einnahmen aus BAföG, Bildungskredit und/oder Stipendium.

Berufsbezeichnung des derzeitigen Berufs oder Jobs; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommens (kategorisiert); Art des Arbeitsvertrages; Arbeitsbeginn (Monat und Jahr); Job ist erste Arbeitsstelle seit Verlasse der Schule; Berufsbezeichnung der ersten Arbeitsstelle; aktive Suche nach einer Ausbildungs- oder Arbeitsstelle; Berufsbezeichnung des Wunschberufs.
Selbsteinschätzung der Deutschkenntnisse (Sprechen, Schreiben); weitere Sprache zu Hause außer Deutsch; Selbsteinschätzung der Kenntnisse in dieser Sprache (Sprechen, Schreiben); Häufigkeit von Fernsehen, Gesprächen mit der Familie und Freunden sowie Zeitunglesen in dieser Sprache.

Besitz der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit; Interesse an der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit bzw. Einbürgerung; beabsichtigte Einbürgerung in den nächsten 5 Jahren; Meinung zu deutscher Staatsangehörigkeit bzw. Einbürgerung (aufwändig und teuer, wichtig, da Einbürgerung Wahlteilnahme ermöglicht, Schutz vor möglicher Abschiebung, bei Einbürgerung alte Staatsangehörigkeit abgeben); Einstellung zur deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit (ablehnende Haltung der Familie, weniger zum Herkunftsland der Familie zugehörig fühlen, Erleichterung des Alltags z.B. bei Behörden oder auf Reisen, Vorteile bei Ausbildung, Studium oder Jobsuche, richtig in Deutschland dazugehören).

Freizeitverhalten: Aktivität in Vereinen oder Gruppen; Verein oder Gruppe, in dem die meiste Zeit verbracht wird; Name des Vereins oder der Gruppe; Ausübung eines Amtes in diesem Verein; Anteil der Personen mit ausgewählter ethnischer Herkunft; Art der politischen Partizipation im letzten Jahr (Petition, Demonstration, Parteiunterstützung); Informationshäufigkeit über politische und soziale Themen; Häufigkeit von Diskussionen über politische und soziale Themen.

Häufigkeit von warmer Mahlzeit und Frühstück; Häufigkeit von Alkoholkonsum, Sport, Rauchen, Drogenkonsum; Nebenjob; Wochenstunden und Monatsverdienst im Nebenjob.

Familie: Migrationshintergrund der Eltern; Besuchshäufigkeit im Herkunftsland der Eltern in den letzten 12 Monaten; Interesse an der Politik dieses Landes; Erwerbsstatus der Eltern; Häufigkeit von Taschengeld und Höhe des Taschengelds.

Freundschaften: Ethnischer Hintergrund der Freunde; Kontakt in Schule, Studium oder Beruf mit Menschen ausgewählter ethnischer Herkunft.

Gefühle und Einstellungen: Nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; Wichtigkeit von Traditionalismus im Hinblick auf diese Gruppe; Deutsche sollten alles tun, um ihre Bräuche und Traditionen zu bewahren, Ausländer sollten sich der deutschen Gesellschaft anpassen, Deutsche sollten offen für Bräuche und Traditionen von Ausländern sein, Ausländer sollten alles tun, um ihre Bräuche und Traditionen bewahren.

Religionszugehörigkeit; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Begegnungsstätten; Häufigkeit von Gebeten; Sympathie-Skalometer für ausgewählte Herkunftsgruppen; Meinung zum Zusammenleben als unverheiratetes Paar, zu Scheidung, Abtreibung und Homosexualität; Lebenszufriedenheit (Skalometer); Gesundheitsprobleme: Häufigkeit von Kopfschmerzen, Bauchschmerzen und Einschlafproblemen in den letzten 6 Monaten; Zukunftserwartungen hinsichtlich Arbeitsstelle, Aufenthalt in Deutschland, Universitätsabschluss und Reichtum.

Politische Meinung: Kompliziertheit der Politik; einfache Meinungsbildung über politische Themen; Politiker nur an Wählerstimmen interessiert; Politiker sorgen sich darum, was Leute denken; besonders guter Politiker; Zufriedenheit mit dem demokratischen System in Deutschland und der Arbeit der Bundesregierung; Institutionenvertrauen (politische Parteien, Gerichte, Polizei, Politiker, Zeitungen, Radio und Fernsehen); Parteipräferenz (Sonntagsfrage); Wahlberechtigung und Teilnahme an der Europawahl im Mai 2014; Selbsteinstufung Links-rechts.

Demographie: Geschlecht; Geburtstag (Monat, Jahr).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode; Interviewdatum (Monat, Jahr); Data release version.

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Themen: Beruflicher Werdegang nach der Schule, Familie, Freunde, Partnerschaft und Freizeit

Youth main questionnaire:
Wohnsituation: Beziehung zu weiteren Haushaltsmitgliedern.

Selbsteinschätzung der Deutschkenntnisse (Sprechen, Schreiben); weitere Sprache(n) zu Hause außer Deutsch; Selbsteinschätzung der Kenntnisse in dieser Sprache (Sprechen, Schreiben); Häufigkeit von Fernsehen, Gesprächen mit der Familie und Freunden sowie Zeitunglesen in dieser Sprache; Nationalität.

Freizeitverhalten: Häufigkeit ausgewählter Freizeitaktivitäten (Verwandtenbesuch, Ausgehen, Lesen, Sportverein oder Musikverein, Konzert, Museum, Zeitunglesen); Informationshäufigkeit über politische und soziale Themen; Häufigkeit von Diskussionen über politische und soziale Themen; Anzahl der Bücher im Haushalt.

Familie: Migrationshintergrund der Eltern und Großeltern; Besuchshäufigkeit im Herkunftsland der Eltern in den letzten 12 Monaten; Bildung der Eltern (nur Auffrischungsstichprobe); Erwerbsstatus der Eltern; derzeitiger bzw. letzter Beruf der Eltern.

Gefühle und Überzeugungen: Zukunftserwartungen im Alter von 30 Jahren bezüglich Aufenthaltsland, Heirat, Kinder, Gesundheitszustand, Nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; Meinung zur Einschränkung der Einwanderung von Flüchtlingen durch Festlegung einer Höchstgrenze; Meinung zur Flüchtlingsaufnahme im Land ( Kriegs- oder Bürgerkriegsflüchtlinge, Politisch Verfolgte, Religiös Verfolgte, Menschen, die vor dem Verhungern oder vor Naturkatastrophen fliehen, Ethnisch Verfolgte sowie Flüchtlinge, die ihr Land aufgrund unzureichender Beschäftigungschancen verlassen haben); Geschlechterrollen (Kindererziehung, Kochen, Saubermachen, Geld verdienen).

Religionszugehörigkeit; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Begegnungsstätten; Häufigkeit von Gebeten; Einschätzung der der Chancen auf eine Ausbildung oder einen Job bei gleicher Abschlussnote (Männer oder Frauen, Ausländer oder Einheimische, Kinder von Arbeitern oder von Akademikern); jemals beworben; Diskriminierungserfahrung aufgrund Geschlecht, ethnischer Zugehörigkeit und sozialer Herkunft.

Freundschaften: fester Freund bzw. feste Freundin; Tätigkeit und Herkunft des festen Freundes/der festen Freundin; ethnischer Hintergrund der Freunde; Personenvertrauen; Selbsteinschätzung des Gesundheitszustands im Vergleich mit Gleichaltrigen; Anteil Personen bei der Hauptaktivität mit deutscher, italienischer, polnischer, russischer, türkischer bzw. anderer Herkunft; allgemeine Lebenszufriedenheit.

Derzeitige Situation: Schulabschluss, Ausbildungsabschluss oder Hochschulabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art dieser Abschlüsse; Gesamtnote im Abschlusszeugnis; Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs; Erreichen eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; derzeitige Tätigkeit; Schule: derzeit besuchte Schulform; Berufsausbildung: Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommen (kategorisiert); Studium: Studienfächer im Haupt- und Nebenfach; voraussichtlicher Studienabschluss; Berufstätigkeit: Berufsbezeichnung des derzeitigen Berufs oder Jobs; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommens (kategorisiert); Art der Einkommensquellen und Höhe der jeweils zur Verfügung stehenden Beträge.

Feste Partnerschaft; Zusammenleben mit dem Partner seit Januar 2011; verheiratet; Kinder; Kinderzahl.

Demographie: Geschlecht; Geburtstag (Monat, Jahr); Auffrischungstichprobe: Geburtsland; Migrationsalter; Generation.

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Gewichtungsfaktoren; Flaggenvariablen.

Youth achievement questionnaire:
Aufgaben zur Sprachkompetenz sowie ein Wort- und Figurenrätsel (kognitiver Fähigkeitstest)

Youth life history calendar -structural:
Technische Informationen: Art des Wellenerfassung; persönlicher Wellen Index; Wellentyp (2 Ebenen); Wellenbeginn und Wellenende (Monat, Jahr); Andauern der Welle; Korrektur im Prüfmodul; technisches Problem im Längsschnitt.
Informationen zu sämtlichen Bildungswegen seit Januar 2011: detaillierte Angaben zur allgemeinen Bildung Erster und Zweiter Bildungsweg, Angaben zur Berufsausbildung (Lehre in einer Firma und in der Schule), Angaben zur Schulischen Berufsausbildung, Angaben zu berufsbildenden Schulen für Aus- und Weiterbildung, Angaben zu Umschulung, Angaben zum Studium, Berufsvorbereitung, andere Berufsausbildung.
Erfasst wurden z.B. besuchte Schulform(en), Schulabschluss erreicht, Abschlussnote; Ausbildungsberuf, Studienfächer, Hochschulart, Zulassungsbeschränkung, Studienabschluss, erreichter Studiengrad, weitere Studiengänge.

Angaben zu sämtlichen Beschäftigungsformen (z.B. Vollzeitbeschäftigung: Beruf, Art des Arbeitsvertrages, Umwandlung der Befristung in einen unbefristeten Vertrag, Wochenarbeitszeit, Praktikum, Nebenjob, Art der Tätigkeit, etc.) , Angaben zu Mutterschutz, Elternzeit, Freiwilligendienst, Wehrdienst, Work & Travel, Auslandsaufenthalten, Arbeitslosigkeit, Jobsuche; Tätigkeit als Hausmann bzw. Hausfrau, Arbeitsunfähigkeit.
Angaben zur Art anderer Aktivitäten.

Überprüfung der Angaben durch Öffnen des Kalenders; fehlende Informationen.

Youth life history calendar - partner:
Angaben zum Partner: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsmonat, Geburtsjahr); Zeitpunkt Beginn und Ende der Partnerschaft; Andauern der Partnerschaft; weitere Partnerschaften; Beginn und Ende weiterer Partnerschaften; Schulbesuch des Partners zu Beginn der Partnerschaft und besuchte Schulform; Bildung des Partners zu Beginn der Partnerschaft; Migrationshintergrund; Zeitpunkt des Zusammenlebens mit dem Partner; Andauern des Zusammenlebens; verheiratet mit dem Partner; Zeitpunkt Beginn und Ende der Ehe; Andauern der Ehe.

Youth life history calendar - children:
Angaben zu Kindern: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsmonat, Geburtsjahr); leibliches Kind.

Informationen zur Stichprobe (Youth main questionnaire, Youth achievement questionnaire, youth life history calendar, youth life history calendar - partner, youth life history calender - children): Internationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Datenerhebungsmethode (persönliches Interview); Version, Stichprobe (Panel, Auffrischung); Interviewdatum (Monat, Jahr); Data release version; eindeutiger Partner-Index; eindeutiger Kinder-Index.

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Youth main questionnaire:

Selbsteinschätzung der Sprachkompetenz in der Landessprache (sprechen und schreiben); weitere zu Hause gesprochene Sprache; Selbsteinschätzung der Sprachkompetenz in dieser zweiten Sprache (sprechen und schreiben); Anwendungshäufigkeit dieser zweiten Sprache (Gespräche mit der Familie und Freunden, Fernsehen und Zeitunglesen); Familiensituation bzw. Situation außerhalb der Familie oder alleinlebend; Vereinsmitgliedschaft; Persönlichkeitsmerkmale (Extrovertiertheit, Wohlwollen, Gewissenhaftigkeit, Neurotizismus, Offenheit für Erfahrungen).

Angaben zum Partner: fester Partner/ feste Partnerin; Zeitpunkt des Beziehungsbeginns (Monat, Jahr); Alter; derzeitige Tätigkeit; höchster Bildungsabschluss; angestrebter Bildungsabschluss; Herkunft des Partners/ der Partnerin; Heirat; Zeitpunkt der Eheschließung (Monat, Jahr); Kinder; Anzahl der Kinder; Geburtsmonat und Geburtsjahr der Kinder.
Einstellungen zu anderen Gruppen: Meinung zu Einwanderern: nationale Bevölkerung/ Einwanderer sollten an ihren Bräuchen und Traditionen festhalten, Einwanderer sollten sich der Gesellschaft im Land anpassen, nationale Bevölkerung sollte offen für Sitten und Gebräuche von Einwanderern sein; Zusammenleben ohne Trauschein, Scheidung, Abtreibung und Homosexualität sind ok; Gefühle gegenüber verschiedenen Bevölkerungsgruppen (Deutsche, Italiener, Polen, Russen, Türken, Syrer, Afghanen, Albaner, Bulgaren, Nordafrikaner, andere Afrikaner).

Eltern: Migrationshintergrund der Eltern; Besuchshäufigkeit im Herkunftsland der Eltern in den letzten 12 Monaten; derzeitiger Erwerbsstatus der Eltern.

Gefühle und Überzeugungen: habe viele gute Eigenschaften, viel, auf das ich stolz sein kann, mag mich so wie ich bin, Zukunftszuversicht; Nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; persönliche Bedeutung an Sitten und Gebräuchen dieser Gruppe festzuhalten; Häufigkeit verschiedener Gefühle (sorgenvoll, schnell wütend, ängstlich, niedergeschlagen, wertlos, handeln ohne nachzudenken); Religion: Religionszugehörigkeit; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Begegnungsstätten; Häufigkeit von Gebeten.

Freunde und Bekannte: Kontakthäufigkeit mit Personen verschiedener Herkunft (Deutsche, Italiener, Polen, Russen, Türken, Syrer, Afghanen, Albaner, Bulgaren, Nordafrikaner, andere Afrikaner, andere nationale Herkunft); Anteil der Freunde mit deutscher, italienischer, polnischer, russischer, türkischer bzw. anderer Herkunft.

Aktivitäten und Gesundheit: allgemeine Lebenszufriedenheit; Häufigkeit von Kopfschmerzen, Magenschmerzen und Einschlafschwierigkeiten in den letzten sechs Monaten; delinquentes Verhalten in den letzten drei Monaten: mutwilliges Zerstören fremden Eigentums, Stehlen, Tragen von Messer oder Waffe, Trunkenheit); Häufigkeit von warmer Mahlzeit und Frühstück; Häufigkeit von Alkoholkonsum, Sport, Zigarettenkonsum und Drogenkonsum; Körpergröße in Zentimetern und Gewicht in Kilogramm; Zukunftserwartungen im Alter von 30 Jahren bezüglich Arbeitsplatz, Aufenthaltsort, Hochschulabschluss und finanzielle Situation.

Derzeitige Situation: generierte Anzahl der genannten Aktivitäten aus Welle 6; Andauern dieser Aktivität; Zeitpunkt des Ende der Aktivität(en) (Monat, Jahr); Schulabschluss oder Ausbildungsabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art dieser Abschlüsse; Erwerb einer Hochschulzugangsberechtigung bzw. Erreichen eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Ausbildungsdauer insgesamt; Gesamtnote im Abschlusszeugnis; Gesamtnote im Schulabgangszeugnis und in den Fächern Mathematik, Deutsch und, Englisch; Hochschulabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art dieses Hochschulabschlusses; Gesamtnote Hochschulabschluss.

Detaillierte Angaben zur derzeitigen Tätigkeit: Schule: derzeit besuchte Schulform; Beginn des Schulbesuchs (Monat, Jahr); Klassenstufe, Berufsausbildung: Zeitpunkt des Ausbildungsbeginns (Monat, Jahr); Ausbildungsdauer insgesamt; Erreichen eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Studium: Zeitpunkt des Studienbeginns (Monat, Jahr); Hochschulart; Studienfächer im Haupt- und Nebenfach; voraussichtlicher Studienabschluss; Studium mit Zugangsbeschränkung; Berufstätigkeit: Berufsbezeichnung des derzeitigen Berufs oder Jobs (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Art des Arbeitsvertrages; Wochenarbeitszeit; Arbeitsbeginn in diesem Job (Monat, Jahr); derzeitiger Job ist erste Arbeitsstelle nach Verlassen der Schule; erste Arbeitsstelle nach Verlassen der Schule (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); aktive Suche nach einer Ausbildungsstelle bzw. einem Job in den letzten drei Monaten; Beruf (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Art der Einkommensquellen und Höhe der jeweils zur Verfügung stehenden Beträge.

Demographie: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsdatum - Monat, Jahr).

Youth friends questionnaire:

Angaben zu den drei besten Freunden: Geschlecht; Alter; Herkunft; derzeitige Tätigkeit; höchster Bildungsabschluss; Beruf (ISCO, ISEI, SIOPS).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; Untersuchungsgebiet; Erhebungsmethode; Interviewdatum (Monat, Jahr); Version Youth main Interview, Youth friends Interview)

Tracking Datensatz: Individuelle Befragten-ID; ID der Klasse und der Schule; Erhebungseinheit auf Klassenebene und Schulebene Welle 2; Sample (Panel, Auffrischungsstichprobe); Land; Stratum der Schule (Migrantenanteil); Schultyp; Teilnahmestatus aus Wellen 1 bis 7.

COVID-19-Special - Zusatzbefragung zur Corona-Pandemie (Youth main questionnaire):

Derzeitige hauptsächlich ausgeübte Tätigkeit; Job im Februar 2020; Verlust dieses Jobs aufgrund der Corona-Pandemie; Veränderung des Arbeitsalltags durch die Corona-Pandemie (z.B. Arbeit von zu Hause aus, weniger/ mehr Geld, weniger/ mehr Wochenstunden, freigestellt ohne/ mit Entgeltfortzahlung, zusätzlichen Nebenjob oder Minijob angenommen, Nebenjob oder Minijob verloren, nichts davon, momentan kein Job oder Nebenjob und nicht in Ausbildung); Informationshäufigkeit über die Corona-Pandemie durch folgende Quellen in deutscher Sprache (Zeitungen (auch online), öffentlich-rechtliche und private Fernseh- und Rundfunksender (auch online), öffentliche Stellen, z.B. Regierung oder Gesundheitsministerium, Informationen von Wissenschaftlern oder Forschungseinrichtungen, soziale Medien); Vertrauen in die vorgenannten Informationsquellen; Informieren über die Corona-Pandemie in einer anderen Sprache als Deutsch; am häufigsten genutzte Sprache für diese Informationen; Informationshäufigkeit über die Corona-Pandemie durch ausgewählte Quellen in dieser Sprache; Vertrauen in die die Informationsquellen in dieser Sprache; Vertrauen in verschiedene Parteien in Bezug auf die Bewältigung der Corona-Pandemie (CDU/CSU, SPD, AfD, FDP, Die Linke, Bündnis 90/Die Grünen); Zustimmung zu Aussagen zur Corona-Pandemie (die deutsche Bundesregierung hat rechtzeitig auf die Corona-Pandemie reagiert, die von der deutschen Bundesregierung ergriffenen Maßnahmen zur Bewältigung der Corona-Pandemie schränken die persönliche Freiheit unnötig ein, der wirtschaftliche Schaden durch die Maßnahmen zur Bewältigung der Corona-Pandemie steht in keinem Verhältnis zu ihrem Nutzen); Bewertung der Maßnahmen der Bundesregierung zur Bewältigung der Corona-Pandemie; Hauptverantwortung für die Eindämmung der Corona-Pandemie (Staat oder Bürger); mehr oder weniger Sorgen seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie im Hinblick auf folgende Bereiche: finanzielle Situation, eigene Gesundheit, Gesundheit von Freunden und Verwandten, wirtschaftliche Situation in Deutschland; nachgewiesene Infektion mit dem Corona-Virus (selbst, eine Person aus der Familie, eine Person aus dem Freundeskreis, eine Person aus dem Bekanntenkreis, nein, möchte ich nicht sagen); Häufigkeit von Kopfschmerzen, Bauchschmerzen und Problemen beim Einschlafen in den letzten zwei Monaten; Häufigkeit persönlicher Vorsorgemaßnahmen gegen COVID-19 (niese oder huste in die Armbeuge, trage in der Öffentlichkeit Mundschutz und /oder Handschuhe, wasche gründlich die Hände, gebe anderen Menschen zur Begrüßung nicht die Hand); Häufigkeit verschiedener Gefühlszustände seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie (mache mir viele Sorgen, werde leicht wütend, fühle mich ängstlich, traurig, wertlos, handle ohne nachzudenken, fühle mich einsam); Veränderungen im Verhalten anderer Personen in der Öffentlichkeit seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie (gehen mir auf der Straße oder in Geschäften häufiger aus dem Weg, setzen sich in der Öffentlichkeit häufiger von mir weg, sind mir gegenüber insgesamt hilfsbereiter geworden); Veränderung des eigenen Verhaltens; häufigeres Gefühl ungerechter Behandlung oder Diskriminierung aufgrund der ethnischen Herkunft seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie; Veränderungen seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie im Hinblick auf die Häufigkeit von Streit oder Auseinandersetzungen, Beleidigungen oder verbaler Gewalt, Handgreiflichkeiten oder körperlicher Gewalt, Störung durch Nachbarn sowie Hilfe von Nachbarn; Vertrauen in verschiedene Parteien in Bezug auf die Bewältigung des Klimawandels (CDU/CSU, SPD, AfD, FDP, Die Linke, Bündnis 90/Die Grünen); Zustimmung zu verschiedenen Aussagen: Bundesregierung hat rechtzeitig auf den Klimawandel reagiert, die von der Bundesregierung ergriffenen Maßnahmen zur Bewältigung des Klimawandels schränken die persönliche Freiheit unnötig ein, der wirtschaftliche Schaden durch die Maßnahmen zur Bewältigung des Klimawandels steht in keinem Verhältnis zu ihrem Nutzen, es ist richtig, dass Themen wie Klimawandel oder Migration während der Corona-Pandemie nicht mehr im Vordergrund stehen); Bewertung der Maßnahmen der Bundesregierung zur Bewältigung des Klimawandels; Hauptverantwortung für die Eindämmung des Klimawandels (Staat oder Bürger); Zustimmung zu Aussagen zur Corona-Pandemie (Freiheit des Einzelnen sollte während der Corona-Pandemie hinter dem Wohl der Bevölkerung zurückstehen, während der Corona-Pandemie sollte Deutschland keine Geflüchteten aufnehmen, der wahre Ursprung der Corona-Pandemie wird uns verschwiegen, während der Corona-Pandemie brauchen wir eine starke Führungsperson, die für unsere Sicherheit sorgt); Zustimmung zu folgenden Aussagen (es ist wichtig, jetzt den Maßnahmen der Bundesregierung zu folgen, ohne sie zu hinterfragen, Personen mit deutscher Staatsangehörigkeit sollten während der Corona-Pandemie bevorzugt medizinisch versorgt werden, es ist nicht gut, wenn Virologen anstatt demokratisch gewählter Politiker das Land regieren, Menschen, die sich nicht an die Schutzmaßnahmen der Bundesregierung halten, sollten sofort bei der Polizei gemeldet werden); Zufriedenheit mit verschiedenen Lebensbereichen (allgemeine Lebenszufriedenheit, Gesundheit, deutsches Gesundheitssystem).

Demographie: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsmonat, Geburtsjahr).

Zusätzlich vekodet wurde: nationale Befragten-ID; Untersuchungsgebiet (Deutschland); Erhebungsmodus der Zusatzbefragung; Interviewdatum; Angabe von Monat und Jahr; Version der Zusatzbefragung; Zuordnung zu Experimentalgruppen.

Welle 8

Youth main questionnaire:

Selbsteinschätzung der Sprachkompetenz in der Landessprache (sprechen und schreiben); deutscher Dialekt; weitere zu Hause gesprochene Sprache; Selbsteinschätzung der Sprachkompetenz in dieser zweiten Sprache (sprechen und schreiben); Anwendungshäufigkeit dieser zweiten Sprache (Gespräche mit der Familie und Freunden, Fernsehen und Zeitunglesen); Partner/ Partnerin; Herkunft des Partners/ der Partnerin; verheiratet, Zeitpunkt der Eheschließung (Monat, Jahr); Heiratsabsicht; Kinder; Anzahl der Kinder; Geburtsmonat und Geburtsjahr der Kinder; weiterer Kinderwunsch in den nächsten zwei Jahren; Familiensituation: Geburt der Eltern im Ausland (Migrationshintergrund); Besuch des Herkunftslandes der Mutter/ des Vaters.

Gefühle und Überzeugungen: Nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; Geschlechterrollen; Religion: Religionszugehörigkeit; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Begegnungsstätten; Häufigkeit von Gebeten; Aktivität in einer religiösen Gemeinschaft.

Wohnsituation: Alter bei Auszug aus dem Elternhaus; Hauptwohnsitz (Land, regionale Klassifikation; Wohnstatus; Höhe der monatlichen Miete bzw. monatlichen Rückzahlungskosten für Hypothekendarlehen und andere Darlehen zur Finanzierung der Eigentumswohnung bzw. des Hauses; Anzahl der Wohn- und Schlafzimmer; Zusammensetzung der Wohngegend (Familien mit Kindern, Ältere, Ausländer, Arbeitslose); Bewertung der Wohngegend hinsichtlich Wohnungen, Grünflächen, öffentliche Verkehrsmittel, Einkaufsmöglichkeiten, Sicherheit tagsüber und nachts, Entfernung zum Arbeitsplatz bzw. Ausbildungsort oder Studienort; genutztes Verkehrsmittel; Umzugsabsicht innerhalb der nächsten zwei Jahre; Hauptgrund für die Umzugsabsicht; maximal akzeptierte Entfernung in Minuten zum Arbeitsplatz bzw. Ausbildungsort oder Studienort; präferierte Ortsgröße.

Alltag: Häufigkeit verschiedener Freizeitaktivitäten; Zeitaufwand an einem Wochentag für Fernsehen, Nutzung von Streamingdiensten, sozialen Medien, Online Dating Plattformen, Haushaltstätigkeiten, Videospiele oder Computerspiele allein und mit anderen; Anteil der Freunde mit deutscher, italienischer, polnischer, russischer, türkischer bzw. anderer Herkunft; Selbsteinschätzung des Gesundheitszustands im Vergleich mit Gleichaltrigen; allgemeine Lebenszufriedenheit und Zufriedenheit mit der derzeitigen Wohnung sowie der Wohnumgebung; Zukunftsperspektiven mit 30 Jahren in Bezug auf den Aufenthalt im Land, Heirat, Kinder, Gesundheit und Wohneigentum.

Derzeitige Situation: Schulabschluss oder Ausbildungsabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art des Ausbildungsabschlusses; Bezeichnung der beruflichen Qualifikation nach ISCO 2008 (ISEI, SIOPS – generiert); Erwerb einer Hochschulzugangsberechtigung durch die berufliche Qualifikation; Ausbildungsdauer insgesamt; Gesamtnote bzw. Credit Points im Abschlusszeugnis; Erwerb eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses mit dem Berufsabschluss; Art des zusätzlich erworbenen Bildungsabschlusses; Gesamtnote im Schulabgangszeugnis und in den Fächern Mathematik, Deutsch und, Englisch; Hochschulabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art dieses Hochschulabschlusses; Gesamtnote Hochschulabschluss; derzeitige Haupttätigkeit.

Schule: Derzeit besuchter Schultyp; Schulzweig; Schulbesuch seit Monat, Jahr; Klassenstufe;
Lehre/ berufsbezogene Ausbildung: Berufsbezeichnung; wichtige Aspekte für die Ausübung des Berufs (Schlichten bei Meinungsverschiedenheiten zwischen Personen, Aufrechterhaltung des Kontakts mit Menschen aus der Region, klare und verständliche Sprache, andere davon überzeugen ihre Meinung oder ihr Verhalten zu ändern, Unterstützen von Kunden oder Klienten im persönlichen Gespräch, Lehren); Nettoeinkommen; Ausbildungsbeginn (Monat, Jahr); Ausbildungsdauer; Erwerb eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses mit der Ausbildung; Art des zusätzlich erworbenen Bildungsabschlusses.

Studium: Studienbeginn (Monat, Jahr); Duales Studium; Beruf; Berufsbezeichnung im Rahmen des Dualen Studiums (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Hochschulart; Anzahl der Studienfächer (Haupt- und Nebenfächer); Studienfächer; Art des Studienabschlusses; Zugangsbeschränkung oder Auswahlverfahren; Bezug von BAföG, Bildungskredit oder Stipendium; Höhe der bezogenen Leistungen.

Arbeit: Derzeitiger Beruf (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); wichtige Aspekte für die Ausübung des Berufs (Schlichten bei Meinungsverschiedenheiten zwischen Personen, Aufrechterhaltung des Kontakts mit Menschen aus der Region, klare und verständliche Sprache, andere davon überzeugen ihre Meinung oder ihr Verhalten zu ändern, Unterstützen von Kunden oder Klienten im persönlichen Gespräch, Lehren); Teilnahme an Umschulung, Fortbildung oder Ausbildung zusätzlich zur Arbeit; Art der Umschulung etc.; Bezeichnung der Umschulung etc. (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Nettoeinkommen; Art des Arbeitsvertrages; Wochenarbeitszeit; Monat und Jahr des Arbeitsbeginns in diesem Beruf; erste Stelle nach Schulabschluss; Berufsbezeichnung der ersten Stelle (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Bezeichnung der Umschulung oder Fortbildung ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Beginn der Umschulung oder Fortbildung (Monat, Jahr); Anbieter; Erhalt einer Teilnahmebescheinigung, anerkannten Lizenz oder einer anderen Zertifizierung mit dieser Umschulung, Fortbildung oder Weiterbildung; aktive Suche nach einer Ausbildungs- oder Arbeitsstelle in den letzten drei Monaten; Berufsbezeichnung (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert).

Fragebogen Geschwister: Anzahl Geschwister insgesamt; biologischer Bruder oder Schwester, Halbbruder/ Halbschwester, Adoptivbruder/ Adoptivschwester, Stiefbruder/ Stiefschwester; Alter der Geschwister; derzeitige Situation bzw. Tätigkeit; besuchte Schulform; Bildungsabschluss; Berufsbezeichnung (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode des Geschwisterinterviews (telephone, post, online); Interviewdatum; Data release version; Flag: Technical error sibling 3 (telephone interview) .

Youth residence history calendar: Alter beim Einzug; Wohnungsstatus (derzeitige oder letzte Wohnung - generiert); regionale Klassifikation (RegioStaR); Haushaltszusammensetzung; Auszugsgründe.

Zusätzlich verkodet: Internationale Befragten ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode des Youth residence history calendar (telephone, post, online); Interviewdatum; Data release version; Anzahl der Einträge in den youth residence history calendar.

Welle 9

A: Youth main questionnaire:

1. Kulturelle und soziale Integration:
Sprache: Selbsteinschätzung der Beherrschung der Sprache des Erhebungslandes (in Wort und Schrift); (zweite) zu Hause gesprochene Sprache; Selbsteinschätzung der Beherrschung der zweiten zu Hause gesprochen Sprache (in Wort und Schrift); Häufigkeit der Verwendung dieser zweiten Sprache (Gespräche mit Familie und Freunden, Fernsehen und Zeitung lesen); Migrationsgeschichte: Geburt der Eltern im Ausland; Häufigkeit der Besuche im Geburtsland der Mutter/des Vaters in den letzten 12 Monaten; Migrationshintergrund des Befragten.

Romantische Beziehung, Ehe und Kinder: Derzeitige Beziehung; Datum der Heirat (Monat, Jahr); Hintergrund des Partners; Kennenlernen des Partners durch Familie oder Verwandte, durch Freunde oder Bekannte, durch Dating-Websites, durch soziale Netzwerke usw. ; Kinder; Anzahl der Kinder; Monat und Jahr der Geburt der Kinder; jemals einen Partner online kennengelernt und eine lockere Beziehung gehabt; jemals einen Partner online kennengelernt und eine feste Beziehung gehabt; jemals einen Partner offline kennengelernt und eine lockere Beziehung gehabt, jemals einen Partner offline kennengelernt und eine feste Beziehung gehabt, Merkmale der Partner dieser Beziehungen (Deutsche ohne Migrationshintergrund, gleiche Religionszugehörigkeit, höherer Bildungsstand, niedrigerer Bildungsstand, gleicher Migrationshintergrund) und Anzahl der Partner.

Diskriminierung: Häufigkeit der Diskriminierung bei der Partnersuche aufgrund der Religionszugehörigkeit, der Sprache, der Sprachkenntnisse, des Dialekts oder Akzents, der Bildung und des Migrationshintergrunds; Einstellungen gegenüber anderen Gruppen: Deutschen, Italienern, Polen, Russen, Türken, Syrern, Afghanen, Albanern, Bulgaren, Nordafrikanern, anderen Afrikanern und Ukrainern (Bewertung auf einer Skala von 0 bis 100).

Freundschaft (starke Bindungen): ethnischer Hintergrund der Freunde (deutsch, italienisch, polnisch, russisch, türkisch, anderer Hintergrund).

Gesundheit: Häufigkeit von Gesundheitsproblemen (Kopfschmerzen, Magenschmerzen und Einschlafprobleme) in den letzten 6 Monaten; Gesundheitsverhalten: Häufigkeit, eine warme Mahlzeit zu sich zu nehmen, Alkohol zu trinken, Sport zu treiben oder ins Fitnessstudio zu gehen, Zigaretten zu rauchen, zu frühstücken und Drogen zu konsumieren; Impfung gegen COVID-19; Monat und Jahr der ersten Impfung; Gründe für die Impfung (Schutz meiner Gesundheit, Schutz der Gesundheit anderer, Beitrag zur Aufhebung von Beschränkungen, leichterer Zugang zu Restaurants, Cafés, Kinos, Sonstiges, Arbeit, Studium, Berufsausbildung, Druck der Gesellschaft, Familie, Freunde oder Bekannte, sonstige Gründe); Gründe für die Nichtimpfung (Zweifel an der Wirksamkeit, Angst vor Nebenwirkungen, keine Notwendigkeit, Ablehnung von staatlichem Zwang, Warten auf einen anderen Impfstoff, Warten auf Langzeitstudien, Vorerkrankungen, Schwangerschaft/Stillen, Angst vor Unfruchtbarkeit, andere Gründe).

Devianz und Straffälligkeit: Straffälliges Verhalten in den letzten 3 Monaten (absichtliche Beschädigung fremder Sachen, Diebstahl in einem Geschäft oder bei einer anderen Person, Tragen eines Messers oder einer Waffe, stark betrunken gewesen).

Politische Beteiligung: Parteipräferenz bei der nächsten Bundestagswahl (Sonntagsfrage); Wahlbeteiligung bei der letzten Bundestagswahl im September 2021; Wahlverhalten bei der letzten Bundestagswahl.

Identität: Einstellungen zu Integrations-/Akkulturationsstrategien (Das deutsche Volk sollte alles tun, um Sitten und Gebräuche zu bewahren, Zuwanderer sollten sich der deutschen Gesellschaft anpassen, das deutsche Volk sollte offen sein für die Sitten und Gebräuche der Zuwanderer, Zuwanderer sollten alles tun, um Sitten und Gebräuche zu bewahren; Bedeutung der deutschen Identität; ethnische Identität (keine andere Gruppe, eine andere Gruppe, zwei andere Gruppen); andere Gruppe, der sich der Befragte noch zugehörig fühlt; Stärke des Zugehörigkeitsgefühls.

Haltungen und Normen: Misstrauen (Coronavirus wurde absichtlich erzeugt, Coronavirus ist harmlos, eine kleine geheime Gruppe ist für die Weltpolitik verantwortlich, Wissenschaftler manipulieren Beweise, um die Öffentlichkeit zu täuschen); Bewertung der Coronapandemie-Maßnahmen durch deutsche Politiker in den letzten zwei Jahren; Toleranz gegenüber dem Zusammenleben, gegenüber Scheidung, gegenüber Abtreibung und gegenüber Homosexualität.

Politische Beteiligung: Parteipräferenz bei der nächsten Bundestagswahl (Sonntagsfrage); Wahlbeteiligung bei der letzten Bundestagswahl im September 2021; Wahlverhalten bei der letzten Bundestagswahl.

Religion: Religionszugehörigkeit; religiöse Bedeutung: Wichtigkeit der Religion; religiöses Verhalten (Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Treffpunkte, Häufigkeit des Betens); religiöser Glaube: In meinem Leben genieße ich den Schutz einer höheren Macht.

Persönlichkeit und psychologisches Wohlbefinden: Lebenszufriedenheit im Allgemeinen; Zufriedenheit mit der Beziehungssituation, mit der finanziellen Situation und mit der Gesundheit; Zukunftserwartungen in Bezug auf einen Arbeitsplatz, einen Universitätsabschluss, Heirat, Kinder und Wohlstand.

2. Aktuelle Situation:

Bildung: höchster Bildungsabschluss; weiterer Abschluss; sonstiger Bildungsabschluss (z. B., abgeschlossene Berufsausbildung/Lehre, Fachschulabschluss, etc. ); Abschluss der Schule oder der Berufsausbildung seit dem letzten Interview; Art des Abschlusses der Berufsausbildung; Berufsabschluss (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); Hochschulzugangsberechtigung zusammen mit diesem Berufsabschluss erhalten; Dauer der Ausbildung insgesamt; Gesamtnote im Berufsabschlusszeugnis (Note, Credit Points, Note und Credit Points) (generiert); Gesamtnote im Berufsabschlusszeugnis: Note/Credit Points; zusätzlicher Bildungsabschluss mit dem Berufsabschluss; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Noten im Schulabschlusszeugnis (Note, Credit Points, Note und Credit Points) (generiert); Noten/Credit Points im Schulabschlusszeugnis in folgenden Fächern: Deutsch, Mathe, Englisch; Gesamtnote im Berufsabschlusszeugnis (Note/Credit Points); Angaben zu zusätzlichem Bildungsabschluss; Hochschulabschluss seit dem letzten Interview; Hochschulabschluss; Noten im Hochschulabschlusszeugnis (Gesamtnote/Credit Points).

Derzeitige Tätigkeit (z. B. Schule, Studium usw.); Schule: derzeit besuchte Schulart; besuchter Bildungsgang der kombinierten Mittel- und Oberstufe, Beginn des Besuchs dieser Schule (Monat und Jahr); derzeit besuchte Klassenstufe.

Lehre/Berufsausbildung: Beruf der aktuellen Lehre (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); monatliches Nettoeinkommen nach Steuern und Pflichtabzügen; Beginn dieser Lehre (Monat und Jahr); Gesamtdauer dieser Lehre; zusätzlicher Bildungsabschluss mit der Lehre; Art dieses zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses.

Studium: Beginn des Studiums (Monat und Jahr); duales Studium mit Berufsausbildung; Beruf der Berufsausbildung im Rahmen des dualen Studiums (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); Art der Hochschule; Studienfächer (generiert); Hauptfach 1 (2, 3): Fächergruppe, Studienrichtung, Fach; Nebenfach 1 (2, 3): Fächergruppe, Studienrichtung, Fach; Abschluss, den der Befragte mit dem derzeitigen Studium erreichen wird; derzeitiges Studium ist ein zulassungsbeschränkter Studiengang oder ein Auswahlverfahren; Bezug von BAföG, einem Bildungskredit oder einem Stipendium; Summe der monatlichen BAföG-, Bildungskredit- oder Stipendienbezüge.

Erwerbstätigkeit: derzeitige Tätigkeit (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); derzeitige Umschulung/Weiterbildung neben der Erwerbstätigkeit; Art der Umschulung/Weiterbildung (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); monatliches Nettoeinkommen nach Steuern und Pflichtabzügen; Art des Arbeitsvertrags; wöchentliche Arbeitszeit; Beginn dieser Tätigkeit (Monat und Jahr); erste Tätigkeit seit Verlassen der Schule; erste Tätigkeit (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert).

Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung: Art der Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); Beginn der Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung (Monat und Jahr); Anbieter dieser Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung; die befragte Person wird mit dieser Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung eine Teilnahmebescheinigung, eine anerkannte Lizenz oder eine andere Zertifizierung erhalten; aktive Suche nach einer Lehrstelle oder einem Arbeitsplatz in den letzten drei Monaten; aktive Suche nach welchem Arbeitsplatz oder Beruf (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert).

Demografie: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsmonat und Geburtsjahr).

Zusätzlich verkodet: eindeutige Befragten-ID; Land der Erhebung; Erhebungsmethode; Interviewdatum; Data release version.

B. Youth vignette questionnaire:

Das Erhebungsexperiment wurde im Online- (CAWI) und im Papierfragebogen (PAPI) durchgeführt, nicht aber in den Telefoninterviews. Im PAPI- und CAWI-Modus der CILS4EU-DE-Umfrage erhielten alle Befragten vier verschiedene Vignetten mit einer Beschreibung eines hypothetischen Partners und wurden gebeten, ihre Bereitschaft zu einer Partnerschaft mit der beschriebenen Person zu bekunden. Der hypothetische Partner (die Vignettenperson), der in den Vignetten beschrieben wurde, unterschied sich in vier verschiedenen Merkmalen (Vignetten-Dimensionen): Herkunft, Religionszugehörigkeit, Religiosität und Bildungsgrad. Darüber hinaus variierte die Art der Partnerschaft, die die Befragten zu bewerten hatten, zwischen den Vignetten. Nach der Beschreibung der Vignettenperson wurden die Befragten gebeten, ihre Bereitschaft anzugeben, die beschriebene Person entweder zu heiraten, eine feste Partnerschaft mit ihr einzugehen oder eine lockere Partnerschaft mit ihr einzugehen.

Eindeutige Befragten-ID; Erhebungsland; Erhebungsmethode Youth Main Interview; Interviewdatum; Data Release Version Youth Main Interview; Vignettengruppe (einheimisch, Migrationshintergrund); Versuchsgruppe; Vignettennummer, Position der Vignettenfrage; Herkunft, Konfession, Religiosität und Bildungsstand der Vignettenperson; Art der Partnerschaft; Bewertung der Vignette: Web-Fragebogen, Bewertung der Vignette: postalischer Fragebogen, Bewertung der Vignette: postalischer und webbasierter Fragebogen (lineares Stretching).

Freizeitverhalten, Freundschaften, Familie, Gefühle und Überzeugungen, Identität, derzeitige Situation und Berufsausbildung von Jugendlichen. Geschwistersituation.

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Fragebogen Jugendliche:

Themen: Freizeitverhalten: Häufigkeit ausgewählter Freizeitaktivitäten (Verwandtenbesuch, Kino, Ausgehen, Lesen, Sportverein oder Musikverein, Konzert, Museum, Zeitunglesen); Stundenaufwand an einem typischen Schultag für Fernsehen, Chatten, Arbeiten im Haushalt, Video oder Computerspiele allein und mit anderen.

Freundschaften: Ethnischer Hintergrund der Freunde; interethnischer Kontakt mit Menschen ausgewählter ethnischer Herkunft; Migrationshintergrund; Wichtigkeit von gleicher Bildung, Religion und ethnischem Hintergrund beim eigenen Partner für den Befragten persönlich und für dessen Eltern; fester Freund oder Freundin; Angaben zu Partner bzw. Partnerin: derzeitige Tätigkeit, besuchter Schultyp bzw. höchster Bildungsabschluss, ethnischer Hintergrund, Konfession, Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Partner bzw. die Partnerin; Beziehungsbeginn (Beziehungsdauer); Kontext des Kennenlernens (z.B. durch Freunde); Partner bzw. Partnerin lebt in derselben Nachbarschaft; Eltern haben Kenntnis von der Beziehung bzw. haben den Partner bzw. die Partnerin bereits getroffen; Eltern kannten sich bereits vor Beziehungsbeginn; familiäre Beziehungen: Interesse der Familie an Gesprächen über den Freund bzw. die Freundin; elterliche Einmischung: Forderung nach Informationen über Aktivitäten und Aufenthaltsort bei Unternehmungen mit dem Freund bzw. der Freundin, Forderung nach sofortigem Kennenlernen des Freundes bzw. der Freundin; erwartete Heirat; derzeitiger Freund bzw. Freundin ist erste feste Beziehung; Anzahl der vorherigen Freunde bzw. Freundinnen; Familie lehnt Beziehung ab; erwartete Offenheit der Familie bei ablehnender Haltung dem Freund bzw. der Freundin gegenüber; Familie überlässt Beziehungsentscheidungen dem Befragten; arrangierte Beziehungen durch die Familie; Forderung der Familie nach Abbruch der Beziehung bei fehlender Sympathie; präferiertes Heiratsalter; gewünschte Kinderzahl. Familie: Migrationshintergrund der biologischen Eltern; Besuchshäufigkeit im Herkunftsland der Eltern in den letzten 12 Monaten; Erwerbsstatus der Eltern; Häufigkeit von Taschengeld und Höhe des Taschengeldes.

Gefühle und Überzeugungen: Lebenszufriedenheit (Skalometer); Diskriminierung: Sympathie-Skalometer für ausgewählte Herkunftsgruppen; Rollenverständnis.

Selbsteinschätzung der Deutschkenntnisse (Sprechen, Schreiben); nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Selbsteinschätzung des Gesundheitszustands im Vergleich zu Gleichaltrigen; delinquentes Verhalten in den letzten drei Monaten: mutwilliges Zerstören fremden Eigentums, Stehlen, Tragen von Messer oder Waffe, Trunkenheit); Häufigkeit von warmer Mahlzeit und Frühstück; Häufigkeit von Alkoholkonsum, Sport, Zigarettenkonsum und Drogenkonsum; Körpergröße in Zentimeter und Gewicht in Kilogramm; präferierte und realistische Bildungsaspiration; Zukunftserwartungen hinsichtlich Aufenthalt in Deutschland, Heirat, Kinder und Gesundheitszustand.

Derzeitige Situation:
Schule: Schulabschluss während des letzten Schuljahres; Noten in Mathematik, Deutsch und Englisch im Abschlusszeugnis; Gesamtnote im Abschlusszeugnis; derzeitige Situation; derzeit besuchte Schulform; Zweig der kooperativen Gesamtschule; derzeit besuchte Klassenstufe; Häufigkeit devianten Verhaltens in der Schule (Auseinandersetzungen mit Lehrern, erfahrene Bestrafung, unerlaubtes Fernbleiben vom Unterricht, Zuspätkommen); Selbstwirksamkeit; Einstellung zur Schule: Wichtigkeit guter Schulnoten.

Berufsausbildung: Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS); Ausbildungsdauer; Erreichen eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Höhe der Ausbildungsvergütung pro Monat (kategorisiert); Berufsbezeichnung des derzeitigen Berufs oder Jobs; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommens (kategorisiert); Art des Arbeitsvertrages; Arbeitsbeginn in diesem Beruf (Monat und Jahr); Job ist erste Arbeitsstelle seit Verlassen der Schule; Berufsbezeichnung der ersten Arbeitsstelle (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS); aktive Suche nach einer Ausbildungs- oder Arbeitsstelle; Berufsbezeichnung des Wunschberufs (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode des Hauptinterviews; Interviewdatum; Flaggenvariable (Interviewdatum abgeleitet vom Eingangsdatum der Kontaktinformationen); Data release version.

Abgeleitete Indizes: Berufsvercodung gemäß ISCO (International Standard Classification of Occupations) 1988; SIOPS (nach Ganzeboom); ISEI (nach Ganzeboom).

2. Fragebogen Geschwister: Anzahl Geschwister insgesamt; für bis zu 15 Geschwister wurde erfragt: Bruder oder Schwester; Alter; derzeitige Situation bzw. Tätigkeit; besuchte Schulform; Bildungsabschluss; Berufsbezeichnung (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode des Hauptinterviews; Interviewdatum; Flaggenvariable (Interviewdatum abgeleitet vom Eingangsdatum der Kontaktinformationen); Data release version.

Tracking Datensatz: Individuelle Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; ID der Klasse und der Schule; Erhebungseinheit auf Klassenebene und Schulebene Welle 2; Land; Stratum der Schule (Migrantenanteil); Schultyp; Bundesland; Teilnahmestatus aus Wellen 1 bis 4.

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Themen: Derzeitige Situation: Schule: Schulabschluss oder Ausbildungsabschluss im letzten Jahr; erreichter Ausbildungsabschluss und Bezeichnung des Abschlusses; Ausbildungsdauer; Abschlussnote; Erreichen eines Schulabschlusses gleichzeitig mit der Ausbildung; Art des Schulabschlusses; Noten in Mathematik, Deutsch und Englisch im Abschlusszeugnis; Gesamtnote im Abschlusszeugnis; derzeitige Tätigkeit; derzeit besuchte Schulform; Zweig der kooperativen Gesamtschule; derzeit besuchte Klassenstufe; Häufigkeit devianten Verhaltens in der Schule (Auseinandersetzungen mit Lehrern, erfahrene Bestrafung, unerlaubtes Fernbleiben vom Unterricht, Zuspätkommen); Selbstwirksamkeit; Einstellung zur Schule; Wichtigkeit guter Schulnoten.

Berufsausbildung: Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs; Gesamtdauer der Ausbildung; Erreichen eins zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommen (kategorisiert).

Studium: Monat und Jahr des Studienbeginns; Art der Hochschule; Name und Ort der Hochschule; Studienfächer im Haupt- und Nebenfach; voraussichtlicher Studienabschluss; Studiengang mit Zulassungsbeschränkung oder Auswahlverfahren; Bezug von BAföG, Bildungskredit oder Stipendium; Gesamthöhe der Einnahmen aus BAföG, Bildungskredit und/oder Stipendium.

Beruf: Berufsbezeichnung des derzeitigen Berufs oder Jobs; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommens (kategorisiert); Art des Arbeitsvertrages; Arbeitsbeginn (Monat und Jahr); Job ist erste Arbeitsstelle seit Verlasse der Schule; Berufsbezeichnung der ersten Arbeitsstelle; aktive Suche nach einer Ausbildungs- oder Arbeitsstelle; Berufsbezeichnung des Wunschberufs.

Selbsteinschätzung der Deutschkenntnisse (Sprechen, Schreiben); weitere Sprache(n) zu Hause außer Deutsch; Selbsteinschätzung der Kenntnisse in dieser Sprache (Sprechen, Schreiben); Häufigkeit von Fernsehen, Gesprächen mit der Familie und Freunden sowie Zeitunglesen in dieser Sprache.

Besitz der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit; Interesse an der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit bzw. Einbürgerung; beabsichtigte Einbürgerung in den nächsten 5 Jahren; Meinung zu deutscher Staatsangehörigkeit bzw. Einbürgerung (aufwändig und teuer, wichtig, da Einbürgerung Wahlteilnahme ermöglicht, Schutz vor möglicher Abschiebung, bei Einbürgerung alte Staatsangehörigkeit abgeben); Einstellung zur deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit (ablehnende Haltung der Familie, weniger zum Herkunftsland der Familie zugehörig fühlen, Erleichterung des Alltags z.B. bei Behörden oder auf Reisen, Vorteile bei Ausbildung, Studium oder Jobsuche, richtig in Deutschland dazugehören).

Freizeitverhalten: Aktivität in Vereinen oder Gruppen; Verein oder Gruppe, in dem die meiste Zeit verbracht wird; Name des Vereins oder der Gruppe; Ausübung eines Amtes in diesem Verein; Anteil der Personen mit ausgewählter ethnischer Herkunft; Art der politischen Partizipation im letzten Jahr (Petition, Demonstration, Parteiunterstützung); Informationshäufigkeit über politische und soziale Themen; Häufigkeit von Diskussionen über politische und soziale Themen; Häufigkeit von warmer Mahlzeit und Frühstück; Häufigkeit von Alkoholkonsum, Sport, Rauchen, Drogenkonsum; Nebenjob; Wochenstunden und Monatsverdienst im Nebenjob.

Familie: Migrationshintergrund der Eltern; Besuchshäufigkeit im Herkunftsland der Eltern in den letzten 12 Monaten; Interesse an der Politik dieses Landes; Erwerbsstatus der Eltern; Häufigkeit von Taschengeld und Höhe des Taschengelds.

Freundschaften: Ethnischer Hintergrund der Freunde; Kontakt in Schule, Studium oder Beruf mit Menschen ausgewählter ethnischer Herkunft.

Gefühle und Einstellungen: Nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; Wichtigkeit von Traditionalismus im Hinblick auf diese Gruppe; Deutsche sollten alles tun, um ihre Bräuche und Traditionen zu bewahren, Ausländer sollten sich der deutschen Gesellschaft anpassen, Deutsche sollten offen für Bräuche und Traditionen von Ausländern sein, Ausländer sollten alles tun, um ihre Bräuche und Traditionen bewahren.

Religionszugehörigkeit; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Begegnungsstätten; Häufigkeit von Gebeten; Sympathie-Skalometer für ausgewählte Herkunftsgruppen; Meinung zum Zusammenleben als unverheiratetes Paar, zu Scheidung, Abtreibung und Homosexualität; Lebenszufriedenheit (Skalometer); Gesundheitsprobleme: Häufigkeit von Kopfschmerzen, Bauchschmerzen und Einschlafproblemen in den letzten 6 Monaten; Zukunftserwartungen hinsichtlich Arbeitsstelle, Aufenthalt in Deutschland, Universitätsabschluss und Reichtum.

Politische Meinung: Kompliziertheit der Politik; einfache Meinungsbildung über politische Themen; Politiker nur an Wählerstimmen interessiert; Politiker sorgen sich darum, was Leute denken; besonders guter Politiker; Zufriedenheit mit dem demokratischen System in Deutschland und der Arbeit der Bundesregierung; Institutionenvertrauen (politische Parteien, Gerichte, Polizei, Politiker, Zeitungen, Radio und Fernsehen); Parteipräferenz (Sonntagsfrage); Wahlberechtigung und Teilnahme an der Europawahl im Mai 2014; Selbsteinstufung Links-rechts.

Demographie: Geschlecht; Geburtstag (Tag, Monat, Jahr).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode; Interviewdatum; Data release version.

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Themen: Beruflicher Werdegang nach der Schule, Familie, Freunde, Partnerschaft und Freizeit

Youth main questionnaire:
Wohnsituation: Beziehung zu weiteren Haushaltsmitgliedern.

Selbsteinschätzung der Deutschkenntnisse (Sprechen, Schreiben); weitere Sprache(n) zu Hause außer Deutsch; am meisten zu Hause gesprochene zweite Sprache; Selbsteinschätzung der Kenntnisse in dieser Sprache (Sprechen, Schreiben); Häufigkeit von Fernsehen, Gesprächen mit der Familie und Freunden sowie Zeitunglesen in dieser Sprache; Nationalität.

Freizeitverhalten: Häufigkeit ausgewählter Freizeitaktivitäten (Verwandtenbesuch, Ausgehen, Lesen, Sportverein oder Musikverein, Konzert, Museum, Zeitunglesen); Informationshäufigkeit über politische und soziale Themen; Häufigkeit von Diskussionen über politische und soziale Themen; Anzahl der Bücher im Haushalt.

Familie: Migrationshintergrund der Eltern und Großeltern; Besuchshäufigkeit im Herkunftsland der Eltern in den letzten 12 Monaten; Bildung der Eltern (nur Auffrischungsstichprobe); Erwerbsstatus der Eltern; derzeitiger bzw. letzter Beruf der Eltern.

Gefühle und Überzeugungen: Zukunftserwartungen im Alter von 30 Jahren bezüglich Aufenthaltsland, Heirat, Kinder, Gesundheitszustand, Nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; Meinung zur Einschränkung der Einwanderung von Flüchtlingen durch Festlegung einer Höchstgrenze; Meinung zur Flüchtlingsaufnahme im Land ( Kriegs- oder Bürgerkriegsflüchtlinge, Politisch Verfolgte, Religiös Verfolgte, Menschen, die vor dem Verhungern oder vor Naturkatastrophen fliehen, Ethnisch Verfolgte sowie Flüchtlinge, die ihr Land aufgrund unzureichender Beschäftigungschancen verlassen haben); Geschlechterrollen (Kindererziehung, Kochen, Saubermachen, Geld verdienen).

Religionszugehörigkeit; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Begegnungsstätten; Häufigkeit von Gebeten; Einschätzung der der Chancen auf eine Ausbildung oder einen Job bei gleicher Abschlussnote (Männer oder Frauen, Ausländer oder Einheimische, Kinder von Arbeitern oder von Akademikern); jemals beworben; Diskriminierungserfahrung aufgrund Geschlecht, ethnischer Zugehörigkeit und sozialer Herkunft.

Freundschaften: fester Freund bzw. feste Freundin; Tätigkeit und Herkunft des festen Freundes/der festen Freundin; ethnischer Hintergrund der Freunde; Personenvertrauen; Selbsteinschätzung des Gesundheitszustands im Vergleich mit Gleichaltrigen; Anteil Personen bei der Hauptaktivität mit deutscher, italienischer, polnischer, russischer, türkischer bzw. anderer Herkunft; allgemeine Lebenszufriedenheit.

Derzeitige Situation: Schulabschluss, Ausbildungsabschluss oder Hochschulabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art dieser Abschlüsse; Gesamtnote im Abschlusszeugnis; Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs; Erreichen eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; derzeitige Tätigkeit; Schule: derzeit besuchte Schulform; Berufsausbildung: Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommen (kategorisiert); Studium: Studienfächer im Haupt- und Nebenfach; voraussichtlicher Studienabschluss; Berufstätigkeit: Berufsbezeichnung des derzeitigen Berufs oder Jobs; Höhe des monatlichen Nettoeinkommens (kategorisiert); Art der Einkommensquellen und Höhe der jeweils zur Verfügung stehenden Beträge.

Feste Partnerschaft; Zusammenleben mit dem Partner seit Januar 2011; verheiratet; Kinder; Kinderzahl.

Demographie: Geschlecht; Geburtstag (Tag, Monat, Jahr); Auffrischungstichprobe: Geburtsland; Migrationsalter; Generation.

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Gewichtungsfaktoren; Flaggenvariablen.

Youth achievement questionnaire:
Aufgaben zur Sprachkompetenz sowie ein Wort- und Figurenrätsel (kognitiver Fähigkeitstest)

Youth life history calendar -structural:
Technische Informationen: Art des Wellenerfassung; persönlicher Wellen Index; Wellentyp (2 Ebenen); Wellenbeginn und Wellenende (Monat, Jahr); Andauern der Welle; Korrektur im Prüfmodul; technisches Problem im Längsschnitt.
Informationen zu sämtlichen Bildungswegen seit Januar 2011: detaillierte Angaben zur allgemeinen Bildung Erster und Zweiter Bildungsweg, Angaben zur Berufsausbildung (Lehre in einer Firma und in der Schule), Angaben zur Schulischen Berufsausbildung, Angaben zu berufsbildenden Schulen für Aus- und Weiterbildung, Angaben zu Umschulung, Angaben zum Studium, Berufsvorbereitung, andere Berufsausbildung,
Erfasst wurden z.B. besuchte Schulform(en), Schulabschluss erreicht, Bundesland des Schulabschlusses, Abschlussnote; Ausbildungsberuf, Studienfächer, Hochschulart, Hochschulstadt, Zulassungsbeschränkung, Studienabschluss, erreichter Studiengrad, weitere Studiengänge.

Angaben zu sämtlichen Beschäftigungsformen (z.B. Vollzeitbeschäftigung: Beruf, Art des Arbeitsvertrages, Umwandlung der Befristung in einen unbefristeten Vertrag, Wochenarbeitszeit, Praktikum, Nebenjob, Art der Tätigkeit, etc.) , Angaben zu Mutterschutz, Elternzeit, Freiwilligendienst, Wehrdienst, Work & Travel, Auslandsaufenthalten, Arbeitslosigkeit, Jobsuche; Tätigkeit als Hausmann bzw. Hausfrau, Arbeitsunfähigkeit.
Angaben zur Art anderer Aktivitäten.

Überprüfung der Angaben durch Öffnen des Kalenders; fehlende Informationen.

Youth life history calendar - partner:
Angaben zum Partner: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsmonat, Geburtsjahr); Zeitpunkt Beginn und Ende der Partnerschaft; Andauern der Partnerschaft; weitere Partnerschaften; Beginn und Ende weiterer Partnerschaften; Schulbesuch des Partners zu Beginn der Partnerschaft und besuchte Schulform; Bildung des Partners zu Beginn der Partnerschaft; Migrationshintergrund; Zeitpunkt des Zusammenlebens mit dem Partner; Andauern des Zusammenlebens; verheiratet mit dem Partner; Zeitpunkt Beginn und Ende der Ehe; Andauern der Ehe.

Youth life history calendar - children:
Angaben zu Kindern: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsmonat, Geburtsjahr); leibliches Kind.

Informationen zur Stichprobe (Youth main questionnaire, Youth achievement questionnaire, youth life history calendar, youth life history calendar - partner, youth life history calender - children): Internationale Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Datenerhebungsmethode (persönliches Interview); Version, Stichprobe (Panel, Auffrischung); Interviewdatum (Tag, Monat, Jahr); Data release version; eindeutiger Partner-Index; eindeutiger Kinder-Index; Teilnahmestatus Wellen 1 bis 6 (Gründe für Nichtteilnahme).

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Youth main questionnaire:

Selbsteinschätzung der Sprachkompetenz in der Landessprache (sprechen und schreiben); weitere zu Hause gesprochene Sprache; Nennung dieser Sprache(n); Selbsteinschätzung der Sprachkompetenz in dieser zweiten Sprache (sprechen und schreiben); Anwendungshäufigkeit dieser zweiten Sprache (Gespräche mit der Familie und Freunden, Fernsehen und Zeitunglesen); Familiensituation bzw. Situation außerhalb der Familie oder alleinlebend; Vereinsmitgliedschaft; Persönlichkeitsmerkmale (Extrovertiertheit, Wohlwollen, Gewissenhaftigkeit, Neurotizismus, Offenheit für Erfahrungen).
Angaben zum Partner: fester Partner/ feste Partnerin; Zeitpunkt des Beziehungsbeginns (Monat, Jahr); Alter; derzeitige Tätigkeit; höchster Bildungsabschluss; angestrebter Bildungsabschluss; Herkunft des Partners/ der Partnerin; Heirat; Zeitpunkt der Eheschließung (Monat, Jahr); Kinder; Anzahl der Kinder; Geburtsmonat und Geburtsjahr der Kinder.

Einstellungen zu anderen Gruppen: Meinung zu Einwanderern: nationale Bevölkerung/ Einwanderer sollten an ihren Bräuchen und Traditionen festhalten, Einwanderer sollten sich der Gesellschaft im Land anpassen, nationale Bevölkerung sollte offen für Sitten und Gebräuche von Einwanderern sein; Zusammenleben ohne Trauschein, Scheidung, Abtreibung und Homosexualität sind ok; Gefühle gegenüber verschiedenen Bevölkerungsgruppen (Deutsche, Italiener, Polen, Russen, Türken, Syrer, Afghanen, Albaner, Bulgaren, Nordafrikaner, andere Afrikaner);
Migrationshintergrund der Eltern; Besuchshäufigkeit im Herkunftsland der Eltern in den letzten 12 Monaten; derzeitiger Erwerbsstatus der Eltern.

Gefühle und Überzeugungen: habe viele gute Eigenschaften, viel, auf das ich stolz sein kann, mag mich so wie ich bin, Zukunftszuversicht; Nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; persönliche Bedeutung an Sitten und Gebräuchen dieser Gruppe festzuhalten; Häufigkeit verschiedener Gefühle (sorgenvoll, schnell wütend, ängstlich, niedergeschlagen, wertlos, handeln ohne nachzudenken);
Religion: Religionszugehörigkeit; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Begegnungsstätten; Häufigkeit von Gebeten.

Freunde und Bekannte: Kontakthäufigkeit mit Personen verschiedener Herkunft (Deutsche, Italiener, Polen, Russen, Türken, Syrer, Afghanen, Albaner, Bulgaren, Nordafrikaner, andere Afrikaner, andere nationale Herkunft); Anteil der Freunde mit deutscher, italienischer, polnischer, russischer, türkischer bzw. anderer Herkunft.

Aktivitäten und Gesundheit: allgemeine Lebenszufriedenheit; Häufigkeit von Kopfschmerzen, Magenschmerzen und Einschlafschwierigkeiten in den letzten sechs Monaten; delinquentes Verhalten in den letzten drei Monaten: mutwilliges Zerstören fremden Eigentums, Stehlen, Tragen von Messer oder Waffe, Trunkenheit); Häufigkeit von warmer Mahlzeit und Frühstück; Häufigkeit von Alkoholkonsum, Sport, Zigarettenkonsum und Drogenkonsum; Körpergröße in Zentimetern und Gewicht in Kilogramm; Zukunftserwartungen im Alter von 30 Jahren bezüglich Arbeitsplatz, Aufenthaltsort, Hochschulabschluss und finanzielle Situation.

Derzeitige Situation: generierte Anzahl der genannten Aktivitäten aus Welle 6; Andauern dieser Aktivität; Zeitpunkt des Ende der Aktivität(en) (Monat, Jahr); Schulabschluss oder Ausbildungsabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art dieser Abschlüsse; Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs (ISEI, SIOPS – generiert); Erwerb einer Hochschulzugangsberechtigung bzw. Erreichen eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Ausbildungsdauer insgesamt; Gesamtnote im Abschlusszeugnis; Gesamtnote im Schulabgangszeugnis und in den Fächern Mathematik, Deutsch und, Englisch; Hochschulabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art dieses Hochschulabschlusses; Gesamtnote Hochschulabschluss.

Detaillierte Angaben zur derzeitigen Tätigkeit: Schule: derzeit besuchte Schulform; Beginn des Schulbesuchs (Monat, Jahr); Klassenstufe, Berufsausbildung: Bezeichnung des Ausbildungsberufs; Zeitpunkt des Ausbildungsbeginns (Monat, Jahr); Ausbildungsdauer insgesamt; Erreichen eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses durch die Ausbildung; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Studium: Zeitpunkt des Studienbeginns (Monat, Jahr); Hochschulart; genaue Bezeichnung der Hochschule; Hochschulort; Studienfächer im Haupt- und Nebenfach; voraussichtlicher Studienabschluss; Studium mit Zugangsbeschränkung; Berufstätigkeit: Berufsbezeichnung des derzeitigen Berufs oder Jobs (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Art des Arbeitsvertrages; Wochenarbeitszeit; Arbeitsbeginn in diesem Job (Monat, Jahr); derzeitiger Job ist erste Arbeitsstelle nach Verlassen der Schule; erste Arbeitsstelle nach Verlassen der Schule (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); aktive Suche nach einer Ausbildungsstelle bzw. einem Job in den letzten drei Monaten; Berufsbezeichnung (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Art der Einkommensquellen und Höhe der jeweils zur Verfügung stehenden Beträge.

Demographie: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsdatum - Tag, Monat, Jahr).

Youth friends questionnaire:

Angaben zu den drei besten Freunden: Geschlecht; Alter; Herkunft; derzeitige Tätigkeit; höchster Bildungsabschluss; Beruf (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID (Deutschland); Untersuchungsgebiet; Erhebungsmethode; Interviewdatum (Tag, Monat, Jahr); Version Youth main Interview, Youth friends Interview).

Tracking Datensatz: Individuelle Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; ID der Klasse und der Schule; Erhebungseinheit auf Klassenebene und Schulebene Welle 2; Sample (Panel, Auffrischungsstichprobe); Land; Stratum der Schule (Migrantenanteil); Schultyp; Bundesland; Teilnahmestatus aus Wellen 1 bis 7.

COVID-19-Special - Zusatzbefragung zur Corona-Pandemie (Youth main questionnaire):

Derzeitige hauptsächlich ausgeübte Tätigkeit; Job im Februar 2020; Verlust dieses Jobs aufgrund der Corona-Pandemie; Veränderung des Arbeitsalltags durch die Corona-Pandemie (z.B. Arbeit von zu Hause aus, weniger/ mehr Geld, weniger/ mehr Wochenstunden, freigestellt ohne/ mit Entgeltfortzahlung, zusätzlichen Nebenjob oder Minijob angenommen, Nebenjob oder Minijob verloren, nichts davon, momentan kein Job oder Nebenjob und nicht in Ausbildung); Informationshäufigkeit über die Corona-Pandemie durch folgende Quellen in deutscher Sprache (Zeitungen (auch online), öffentlich-rechtliche und private Fernseh- und Rundfunksender (auch online), öffentliche Stellen, z.B. Regierung oder Gesundheitsministerium, Informationen von Wissenschaftlern oder Forschungseinrichtungen, soziale Medien); Vertrauen in die vorgenannten Informationsquellen; Informieren über die Corona-Pandemie in einer anderen Sprache als Deutsch; am häufigsten genutzte Sprache für diese Informationen; Informationshäufigkeit über die Corona-Pandemie durch ausgewählte Quellen in dieser Sprache; Vertrauen in die die Informationsquellen in dieser Sprache; Vertrauen in verschiedene Parteien in Bezug auf die Bewältigung der Corona-Pandemie (CDU/CSU, SPD, AfD, FDP, Die Linke, Bündnis 90/Die Grünen); Zustimmung zu Aussagen zur Corona-Pandemie (die deutsche Bundesregierung hat rechtzeitig auf die Corona-Pandemie reagiert, die von der deutschen Bundesregierung ergriffenen Maßnahmen zur Bewältigung der Corona-Pandemie schränken die persönliche Freiheit unnötig ein, der wirtschaftliche Schaden durch die Maßnahmen zur Bewältigung der Corona-Pandemie steht in keinem Verhältnis zu ihrem Nutzen); Bewertung der Maßnahmen der Bundesregierung zur Bewältigung der Corona-Pandemie; Hauptverantwortung für die Eindämmung der Corona-Pandemie (Staat oder Bürger); mehr oder weniger Sorgen seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie im Hinblick auf folgende Bereiche: finanzielle Situation, eigene Gesundheit, Gesundheit von Freunden und Verwandten, wirtschaftliche Situation in Deutschland; nachgewiesene Infektion mit dem Corona-Virus (selbst, eine Person aus der Familie, eine Person aus dem Freundeskreis, eine Person aus dem Bekanntenkreis, nein, möchte ich nicht sagen); Häufigkeit von Kopfschmerzen, Bauchschmerzen und Problemen beim Einschlafen in den letzten zwei Monaten; Häufigkeit persönlicher Vorsorgemaßnahmen gegen COVID-19 (niese oder huste in die Armbeuge, trage in der Öffentlichkeit Mundschutz und /oder Handschuhe, wasche gründlich die Hände, gebe anderen Menschen zur Begrüßung nicht die Hand); Häufigkeit verschiedener Gefühlszustände seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie (mache mir viele Sorgen, werde leicht wütend, fühle mich ängstlich, traurig, wertlos, handle ohne nachzudenken, fühle mich einsam); Veränderungen im Verhalten anderer Personen in der Öffentlichkeit seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie (gehen mir auf der Straße oder in Geschäften häufiger aus dem Weg, setzen sich in der Öffentlichkeit häufiger von mir weg, sind mir gegenüber insgesamt hilfsbereiter geworden); Veränderung des eigenen Verhaltens; häufigeres Gefühl ungerechter Behandlung oder Diskriminierung aufgrund der ethnischen Herkunft seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie; Veränderungen seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie im Hinblick auf die Häufigkeit von Streit oder Auseinandersetzungen, Beleidigungen oder verbaler Gewalt, Handgreiflichkeiten oder körperlicher Gewalt, Störung durch Nachbarn sowie Hilfe von Nachbarn; Vertrauen in verschiedene Parteien in Bezug auf die Bewältigung des Klimawandels (CDU/CSU, SPD, AfD, FDP, Die Linke, Bündnis 90/Die Grünen); Zustimmung zu verschiedenen Aussagen: Bundesregierung hat rechtzeitig auf den Klimawandel reagiert, die von der Bundesregierung ergriffenen Maßnahmen zur Bewältigung des Klimawandels schränken die persönliche Freiheit unnötig ein, der wirtschaftliche Schaden durch die Maßnahmen zur Bewältigung des Klimawandels steht in keinem Verhältnis zu ihrem Nutzen, es ist richtig, dass Themen wie Klimawandel oder Migration während der Corona-Pandemie nicht mehr im Vordergrund stehen); Bewertung der Maßnahmen der Bundesregierung zur Bewältigung des Klimawandels; Hauptverantwortung für die Eindämmung des Klimawandels (Staat oder Bürger); Zustimmung zu Aussagen zur Corona-Pandemie (Freiheit des Einzelnen sollte während der Corona-Pandemie hinter dem Wohl der Bevölkerung zurückstehen, während der Corona-Pandemie sollte Deutschland keine Geflüchteten aufnehmen, der wahre Ursprung der Corona-Pandemie wird uns verschwiegen, während der Corona-Pandemie brauchen wir eine starke Führungsperson, die für unsere Sicherheit sorgt); Zustimmung zu folgenden Aussagen (es ist wichtig, jetzt den Maßnahmen der Bundesregierung zu folgen, ohne sie zu hinterfragen, Personen mit deutscher Staatsangehörigkeit sollten während der Corona-Pandemie bevorzugt medizinisch versorgt werden, es ist nicht gut, wenn Virologen anstatt demokratisch gewählter Politiker das Land regieren, Menschen, die sich nicht an die Schutzmaßnahmen der Bundesregierung halten, sollten sofort bei der Polizei gemeldet werden); Zufriedenheit mit verschiedenen Lebensbereichen (allgemeine Lebenszufriedenheit, Gesundheit, deutsches Gesundheitssystem).

Demographie: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtsdatum).

Zusätzlich vekodet wurde: nationale Befragten-ID; Untersuchungsgebiet (Deutschland); Erhebungsmodus der Zusatzbefragung; Interviewdatum; Angabe des Datums; Version der Zusatzbefragung; Zuordnung zu Experimentalgruppen.

Welle 8
Youth main questionnaire:

Selbsteinschätzung der Sprachkompetenz in der Landessprache (sprechen und schreiben); deutscher Dialekt; am häufigsten gesprochene Dialekte; weitere zu Hause gesprochene Sprache; Nennung dieser weiteren Sprache; Selbsteinschätzung der Sprachkompetenz in dieser zweiten Sprache (sprechen und schreiben); Anwendungshäufigkeit dieser zweiten Sprache (Gespräche mit der Familie und Freunden, Fernsehen und Zeitunglesen); Partner/ Partnerin; Herkunft des Partners/ der Partnerin; verheiratet, Zeitpunkt der Eheschließung (Monat, Jahr); Heiratsabsicht; Kinder; Anzahl der Kinder; Geburtsmonat und Geburtsjahr der Kinder; weiterer Kinderwunsch in den nächsten zwei Jahren; Familiensituation: Geburt der Eltern im Ausland (Migrationshintergrund); Besuch des Herkunftslandes der Mutter/ des Vaters.

Gefühle und Überzeugungen: Nationale Identität; Zugehörigkeitsgefühl zu einer anderen Gruppe und Stärke der Identität; Geschlechterrollen; Religion: Religionszugehörigkeit; Wichtigkeit von Religion für den Befragten; Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Begegnungsstätten; Häufigkeit von Gebeten; Aktivität in einer religiösen Gemeinschaft.

Wohnsituation: Alter bei Auszug aus dem Elternhaus; Hauptwohnsitz (Bundesland, Land, regionale Klassifikation; Wohnstatus; Höhe der monatlichen Miete bzw. monatlichen Rückzahlungskosten für Hypothekendarlehen und andere Darlehen zur Finanzierung der Eigentumswohnung bzw. des Hauses; Anzahl der Wohn- und Schlafzimmer; Zusammensetzung der Wohngegend (Familien mit Kindern, Ältere, Ausländer, Arbeitslose); Bewertung der Wohngegend hinsichtlich Wohnungen, Grünflächen, öffentliche Verkehrsmittel, Einkaufsmöglichkeiten, Sicherheit tagsüber und nachts, Entfernung zum Arbeitsplatz bzw. Ausbildungsort oder Studienort; genutztes Verkehrsmittel; Umzugsabsicht innerhalb der nächsten zwei Jahre; Hauptgrund für die Umzugsabsicht; maximal akzeptierte Entfernung in Minuten zum Arbeitsplatz bzw. Ausbildungsort oder Studienort; präferierte Ortsgröße.

Alltag: Häufigkeit verschiedener Freizeitaktivitäten; Zeitaufwand an einem Wochentag für Fernsehen, Nutzung von Streamingdiensten, sozialen Medien, Online Dating Plattformen, Haushaltstätigkeiten, Videospiele oder Computerspiele allein und mit anderen; Anteil der Freunde mit deutscher, italienischer, polnischer, russischer, türkischer bzw. anderer Herkunft; Selbsteinschätzung des Gesundheitszustands im Vergleich mit Gleichaltrigen; allgemeine Lebenszufriedenheit und Zufriedenheit mit der derzeitigen Wohnung sowie der Wohnumgebung; Zukunftsperspektiven mit 30 Jahren in Bezug auf den Aufenthalt im Land, Heirat, Kinder, Gesundheit und Wohneigentum.

Derzeitige Situation: Schulabschluss oder Ausbildungsabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art des Ausbildungsabschlusses; Bezeichnung der beruflichen Qualifikation nach ISCO 2008 (ISEI, SIOPS – generiert); Erwerb einer Hochschulzugangsberechtigung durch die berufliche Qualifikation; Ausbildungsdauer insgesamt; Gesamtnote bzw. Credit Points im Abschlusszeugnis; Erwerb eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses mit dem Berufsabschluss; Art des zusätzlich erworbenen Bildungsabschlusses; Gesamtnote im Schulabgangszeugnis und in den Fächern Mathematik, Deutsch und, Englisch; Hochschulabschluss seit dem letzten Interview und Art dieses Hochschulabschlusses; Gesamtnote Hochschulabschluss; derzeitige Haupttätigkeit.

Schule: Derzeit besuchter Schultyp; Schulzweig; Schulbesuch seit Monat, Jahr; Klassenstufe;
Lehre/ berufsbezogene Ausbildung: Berufsbezeichnung; wichtige Aspekte für die Ausübung des Berufs (Schlichten bei Meinungsverschiedenheiten zwischen Personen, Aufrechterhaltung des Kontakts mit Menschen aus der Region, klare und verständliche Sprache, andere davon überzeugen ihre Meinung oder ihr Verhalten zu ändern, Unterstützen von Kunden oder Klienten im persönlichen Gespräch, Lehren); Nettoeinkommen; Ausbildungsbeginn (Monat, Jahr); Ausbildungsdauer; Erwerb eines zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses mit der Ausbildung; Art des zusätzlich erworbenen Bildungsabschlusses.

Studium: Studienbeginn (Monat, Jahr); Duales Studium; Beruf; Berufsbezeichnung im Rahmen des Dualen Studiums (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Hochschulart; Name der Hochschule; Studienort; Anzahl der Studienfächer (Haupt- und Nebenfächer); Studienfächer; Art des Studienabschlusses; Zugangsbeschränkung oder Auswahlverfahren; Bezug von BAföG, Bildungskredit oder Stipendium; Höhe der bezogenen Leistungen.

Arbeit: Derzeitiger Beruf (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); wichtige Aspekte für die Ausübung des Berufs (Schlichten bei Meinungsverschiedenheiten zwischen Personen, Aufrechterhaltung des Kontakts mit Menschen aus der Region, klare und verständliche Sprache, andere davon überzeugen ihre Meinung oder ihr Verhalten zu ändern, Unterstützen von Kunden oder Klienten im persönlichen Gespräch, Lehren); Teilnahme an Umschulung, Fortbildung oder Ausbildung zusätzlich zur Arbeit; Art der Umschulung etc.; Bezeichnung der Umschulung etc. (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Nettoeinkommen; Art des Arbeitsvertrages; Wochenarbeitszeit; Monat und Jahr des Arbeitsbeginns in diesem Beruf; erste Stelle nach Schulabschluss; Berufsbezeichnung der ersten Stelle (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Bezeichnung der Umschulung oder Fortbildung ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert); Beginn der Umschulung oder Fortbildung (Monat, Jahr); Gesamtumfang der Umschulung oder Fortbildung (Stundenzahl); Anbieter; Erhalt einer Teilnahmebescheinigung, anerkannten Lizenz oder einer anderen Zertifizierung mit dieser Umschulung, Fortbildung oder Weiterbildung; aktive Suche nach einer Ausbildungs- oder Arbeitsstelle in den letzten drei Monaten; Berufsbezeichnung (ISCO-08, ISEI, SIOPS - generiert).

Fragebogen Geschwister: Anzahl Geschwister insgesamt; biologischer Bruder oder Schwester, Halbbruder/ Halbschwester, Adoptivbruder/ Adoptivschwester, Stiefbruder/ Stiefschwester; Alter der Geschwister; derzeitige Situation bzw. Tätigkeit; besuchte Schulform; Bildungsabschluss; Berufsbezeichnung (ISCO 2008, ISEI, SIOPS).

Zusätzlich verkodet wurde: Internationale Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode des Geschwisterinterviews (telephone, post, online); Interviewdatum; Data release version; Flag: Technical error sibling 3 (telephone interview) .

Youth residence history calendar: Alter beim Einzug; Wohnungsstatus (derzeitige oder letzte Wohnung - generiert); Bundesland; Land des Wohnsitzes; regionale Klassifikation (RegioStaR); Haushaltszusammensetzung; Anzahl und Art der Haushaltsmitglieder; Auszugsgründe.

Zusätzlich verkodet: Internationale Befragten ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Datenerhebung; Erhebungsmethode des Youth residence history calendar (telephone, post, online); Interviewdatum; Data release version; Anzahl der Einträge in den youth residence history calendar.

Welle 9

A: Youth main questionnaire:

1. Kulturelle und soziale Integration:
Sprache: Selbsteinschätzung der Beherrschung der Sprache des Erhebungslandes (in Wort und Schrift); (zweite) zu Hause gesprochene Sprache; Angabe dieser zweiten Sprache; Selbsteinschätzung der Beherrschung der zweiten zu Hause gesprochen Sprache (in Wort und Schrift); Häufigkeit der Verwendung dieser zweiten Sprache (Gespräche mit Familie und Freunden, Fernsehen und Zeitung lesen); Migrationsgeschichte: Geburt der Eltern im Ausland; Häufigkeit der Besuche im Geburtsland der Mutter/des Vaters in den letzten 12 Monaten; Migrationshintergrund des Befragten.

Romantische Beziehung, Ehe und Kinder: Derzeitige Beziehung; Datum der Heirat (Monat, Jahr); Hintergrund des Partners; Kennenlernen des Partners durch Familie oder Verwandte, durch Freunde oder Bekannte, durch Dating-Websites, durch soziale Netzwerke usw. ; Kinder; Anzahl der Kinder; Monat und Jahr der Geburt der Kinder; jemals einen Partner online kennengelernt und eine lockere Beziehung gehabt; jemals einen Partner online kennengelernt und eine feste Beziehung gehabt; jemals einen Partner offline kennengelernt und eine lockere Beziehung gehabt, jemals einen Partner offline kennengelernt und eine feste Beziehung gehabt, Merkmale der Partner dieser Beziehungen (Deutsche ohne Migrationshintergrund, gleiche Religionszugehörigkeit, höherer Bildungsstand, niedrigerer Bildungsstand, gleicher Migrationshintergrund) und Anzahl der Partner.

Diskriminierung: Häufigkeit der Diskriminierung bei der Partnersuche aufgrund der Religionszugehörigkeit, der Sprache, der Sprachkenntnisse, des Dialekts oder Akzents, der Bildung und des Migrationshintergrunds; Einstellungen gegenüber anderen Gruppen: Deutschen, Italienern, Polen, Russen, Türken, Syrern, Afghanen, Albanern, Bulgaren, Nordafrikanern, anderen Afrikanern und Ukrainern (Bewertung auf einer Skala von 0 bis 100).

Freundschaft (starke Bindungen): ethnischer Hintergrund der Freunde (deutsch, italienisch, polnisch, russisch, türkisch, anderer Hintergrund).

Gesundheit: Häufigkeit von Gesundheitsproblemen (Kopfschmerzen, Magenschmerzen und Einschlafprobleme) in den letzten 6 Monaten; Gesundheitsverhalten: Häufigkeit, eine warme Mahlzeit zu sich zu nehmen, Alkohol zu trinken, Sport zu treiben oder ins Fitnessstudio zu gehen, Zigaretten zu rauchen, zu frühstücken und Drogen zu konsumieren; Impfung gegen COVID-19; Monat und Jahr der ersten Impfung; Gründe für die Impfung (Schutz meiner Gesundheit, Schutz der Gesundheit anderer, Beitrag zur Aufhebung von Beschränkungen, leichterer Zugang zu Restaurants, Cafés, Kinos, Sonstiges, Arbeit, Studium, Berufsausbildung, Druck der Gesellschaft, Familie, Freunde oder Bekannte, sonstige Gründe (offen)); Gründe für die Nichtimpfung (Zweifel an der Wirksamkeit, Angst vor Nebenwirkungen, keine Notwendigkeit, Ablehnung von staatlichem Zwang, Warten auf einen anderen Impfstoff, Warten auf Langzeitstudien, Vorerkrankungen, Schwangerschaft/Stillen, Angst vor Unfruchtbarkeit, andere Gründe (offen)).

Devianz und Straffälligkeit: Straffälliges Verhalten in den letzten 3 Monaten (absichtliche Beschädigung fremder Sachen, Diebstahl in einem Geschäft oder bei einer anderen Person, Tragen eines Messers oder einer Waffe, stark betrunken gewesen).

Politische Beteiligung: Parteipräferenz bei der nächsten Bundestagswahl (Sonntagsfrage); Wahlbeteiligung bei der letzten Bundestagswahl im September 2021; Wahlverhalten bei der letzten Bundestagswahl.

Identität: Einstellungen zu Integrations-/Akkulturationsstrategien (Das deutsche Volk sollte alles tun, um Sitten und Gebräuche zu bewahren, Zuwanderer sollten sich der deutschen Gesellschaft anpassen, das deutsche Volk sollte offen sein für die Sitten und Gebräuche der Zuwanderer, Zuwanderer sollten alles tun, um Sitten und Gebräuche zu bewahren; Bedeutung der deutschen Identität; ethnische Identität (keine andere Gruppe, eine andere Gruppe, zwei andere Gruppen); andere Gruppe, der sich der Befragte noch zugehörig fühlt; Stärke des Zugehörigkeitsgefühls.

Haltungen und Normen: Misstrauen (Coronavirus wurde absichtlich erzeugt, Coronavirus ist harmlos, eine kleine geheime Gruppe ist für die Weltpolitik verantwortlich, Wissenschaftler manipulieren Beweise, um die Öffentlichkeit zu täuschen); Bewertung der Coronapandemie-Maßnahmen durch deutsche Politiker in den letzten zwei Jahren; Toleranz gegenüber dem Zusammenleben, gegenüber Scheidung, gegenüber Abtreibung und gegenüber Homosexualität.

Politische Beteiligung: Parteipräferenz bei der nächsten Bundestagswahl (Sonntagsfrage); Wahlbeteiligung bei der letzten Bundestagswahl im September 2021; Wahlverhalten bei der letzten Bundestagswahl.

Religion: Religionszugehörigkeit; Angabe Religionszugehörigkeit Christentum: andere Religion/ Islam: andere Religion; Religionszugehörigkeit andere Religion; religiöse Bedeutung: Wichtigkeit der Religion; religiöses Verhalten (Häufigkeit des Besuchs religiöser Treffpunkte, Häufigkeit des Betens); religiöser Glaube: In meinem Leben genieße ich den Schutz einer höheren Macht.

Persönlichkeit und psychologisches Wohlbefinden: Lebenszufriedenheit im Allgemeinen; Zufriedenheit mit der Beziehungssituation, mit der finanziellen Situation und mit der Gesundheit; Zukunftserwartungen in Bezug auf einen Arbeitsplatz, einen Universitätsabschluss, Heirat, Kinder und Wohlstand.

2. Aktuelle Situation:

Bildung: höchster Bildungsabschluss; weiterer Abschluss; sonstiger Bildungsabschluss (z. B., abgeschlossene Berufsausbildung/Lehre, Fachschulabschluss, etc. ); Abschluss der Schule oder der Berufsausbildung seit dem letzten Interview; Art des Abschlusses der Berufsausbildung; genaue Bezeichnung der beruflichen Qualifikation (ISCO 2008); Berufsabschluss (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); Hochschulzugangsberechtigung zusammen mit diesem Berufsabschluss erhalten; Dauer der Ausbildung insgesamt; Gesamtnote im Berufsabschlusszeugnis (Note, Credit Points, Note und Credit Points) (generiert); Gesamtnote im Berufsabschlusszeugnis: Note/Credit Points; zusätzlicher Bildungsabschluss mit dem Berufsabschluss; Art dieses Bildungsabschlusses; Noten im Schulabschlusszeugnis (Note, Credit Points, Note und Credit Points) (generiert); Noten/Credit Points im Schulabschlusszeugnis in folgenden Fächern: Deutsch, Mathe, Englisch; Gesamtnote im Berufsabschlusszeugnis (Note/Credit Points); Angaben zu zusätzlichem Bildungsabschluss; Hochschulabschluss seit dem letzten Interview; Hochschulabschluss; Noten im Hochschulabschlusszeugnis (Gesamtnote/Credit Points).

Derzeitige Tätigkeit (z. B. Schule, Studium usw.); Schule: derzeit besuchte Schulart; besuchter Bildungsgang der kombinierten Mittel- und Oberstufe, Beginn des Besuchs dieser Schule (Monat und Jahr); derzeit besuchte Klassenstufe.

Lehre/Berufsausbildung: Beruf der aktuellen Ausbildung (ISCO 2008); Beruf der aktuellen Lehre (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); monatliches Nettoeinkommen nach Steuern und Pflichtabzügen; Beginn dieser Lehre (Monat und Jahr); Gesamtdauer dieser Lehre; zusätzlicher Bildungsabschluss mit der Lehre; Art dieses zusätzlichen Bildungsabschlusses.

Studium: Beginn des Studiums (Monat und Jahr); duales Studium mit Berufsausbildung; Beruf der Berufsausbildung im Rahmen eines dualen Studiums (ISCO 2008); Beruf der Berufsausbildung im Rahmen des dualen Studiums (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); Art der Hochschule; Name der Hochschule; Studienort; Studienfächer (generiert); Hauptfach 1 (2, 3): Fächergruppe, Studienrichtung, Fach; Nebenfach 1 (2, 3): Fächergruppe, Studienrichtung, Fach; Abschluss, den der Befragte mit dem derzeitigen Studium erreichen wird; derzeitiges Studium ist ein zulassungsbeschränkter Studiengang oder ein Auswahlverfahren; Bezug von BAföG, einem Bildungskredit oder einem Stipendium; Summe der monatlichen BAföG-, Bildungskredit- oder Stipendienbezüge.

Erwerbstätigkeit: genaue Bezeichnung der derzeitigen Tätigkeit (ISCO 2008); derzeitige Tätigkeit (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); derzeitige Umschulung/Weiterbildung neben der Erwerbstätigkeit; genaue Bezeichnung dieser Umschulung, Weiterbildung oder Schulung (ISCO 2008); Art der Umschulung/Weiterbildung (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); monatliches Nettoeinkommen nach Steuern und Pflichtabzügen; Art des Arbeitsvertrags; wöchentliche Arbeitszeit; Beginn dieser Tätigkeit (Monat und Jahr); erste Tätigkeit seit Verlassen der Schule; genaue Bezeichnung der ersten Tätigkeit (ISCO 2008); erste Tätigkeit (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert).

Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung: genaue Bezeichnung der Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung (ISCO 2008);Art der Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert); Beginn der Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung (Monat und Jahr); Gesamtzahl der Stunden dieser Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung; Anbieter dieser Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung; die befragte Person wird mit dieser Umschulung, Fort- oder Weiterbildung eine Teilnahmebescheinigung, eine anerkannte Lizenz oder eine andere Zertifizierung erhalten; aktive Suche nach einer Lehrstelle oder einem Arbeitsplatz in den letzten drei Monaten; genaue Bezeichnung dieser Stelle (ISCO 2008); aktive Suche nach welchem Arbeitsplatz oder Beruf (ISEI (generiert), SIOPS (generiert).

Demografie: Geschlecht; Alter (Geburtstag, Geburtsmonat und Geburtsjahr).

Zusätzlich verkodet: eindeutige Befragten-ID; nationale Befragten-ID; Land der Erhebung; Erhebungsmethode; Interviewdatum; Data release version.

B. Youth vignette questionnaire:

Das Erhebungsexperiment wurde im Online- (CAWI) und im Papierfragebogen (PAPI) durchgeführt, nicht aber in den Telefoninterviews. Im PAPI- und CAWI-Modus der CILS4EU-DE-Umfrage erhielten alle Befragten vier verschiedene Vignetten mit einer Beschreibung eines hypothetischen Partners und wurden gebeten, ihre Bereitschaft zu einer Partnerschaft mit der beschriebenen Person zu bekunden. Der hypothetische Partner (die Vignettenperson), der in den Vignetten beschrieben wurde, unterschied sich in vier verschiedenen Merkmalen (Vignetten-Dimensionen): Herkunft, Religionszugehörigkeit, Religiosität und Bildungsgrad. Darüber hinaus variierte die Art der Partnerschaft, die die Befragten zu bewerten hatten, zwischen den Vignetten. Nach der Beschreibung der Vignettenperson wurden die Befragten gebeten, ihre Bereitschaft anzugeben, die beschriebene Person entweder zu heiraten, eine feste Partnerschaft mit ihr einzugehen oder eine lockere Partnerschaft mit ihr einzugehen.

Eindeutige Befragten-ID; Erhebungsland; Erhebungsmethode Youth Main Interview; Interviewdatum; Data Release Version Youth Main Interview; Vignettengruppe (einheimisch, Migrationshintergrund); Versuchsgruppe; Vignettennummer, Position der Vignettenfrage; Herkunft, Konfession, Religiosität und Bildungsstand der Vignettenperson; Art der Partnerschaft; Bewertung der Vignette: Web-Fragebogen, Bewertung der Vignette: postalischer Fragebogen, Bewertung der Vignette: postalischer und webbasierter Fragebogen (lineares Stretching).

1PERANAN KEPEMIMPINAN KEPALA SUKU DALAM MENGATASI KONFLIK ANTARA SUKU DANI DAN SUKU DAMAL DI KABUPATEN(Suatu Studi di Mimika Provinsi Papua)OLEH : UNDINUS KOGOYANIM : 090814015ABSTRAK Konflik yang terjadi di antara suku Dani dan suku Damal yang ada di Kabupaten Mimika di mulai sejak pertengahan tahun 2013, yaitu di daerah tambang emas dimana kedua suku ini menjadi tambang Mimika sebagai sumber mata pencaharian, berawal dari salah satu perempuan suku dani di perkosa oleh salah satu anggota suku damal, hal ini tidak dapat diterima oleh suku dani, secara spontan anggota suku dani menyerang suku damal, sehingga terjadilah perang antara suku dani dan suku damal. Kapasitas Pemerintah dalam menyelesaikan konflik antara kedua suku ini hanyalah sampai pada pendekatan persuasif, yaitu mengajak untuk dapat mendiskusikan secara baik, agar tercapai suatu kesepakatan damai, namun upaya pemerintah tersebut sampai dengan saat ini tampaknya belum berhasil, karena kedua suku yang bertikai masih semangat mudah sekali untuk terpancing sehingga perdamaianpun tidak terwujud. Penelitian ini dilakukan di wilayah Mimika yang merupakan salah satu propinsi yang ada di Papua. Karena di wilayah ini sering terjadi konflik antara kedua suku tersebut. Metode penelitan yang dipakai adalah metode deskriptif kualitatif yaitu menggambarkan berbagai faktor yang menjadi pemicu konflik dan cara serta peran yang dimainkan oleh pemerintah dalam mengatasi konflik tersebut. Tujuan dari penelitian ini adalah untuk mengetahui faktor-faktor penyebab terjadinya konflik antara suku dani dan suku dalam. dan untuk mengetahui penyebab ketidakmampuan kepala suku meredam amarah anggotanya. Hasil dari penelitian ini ditemukan bahwa kepala suku tidak mampu meredam konflik, serta memberikan ketenangan bagi anggota sukunya, sehingga perdamaian sulit untuk di wujudkan. Key word: Kepemimpinan, Kepala Suku, Konflik2Pendahuluan Salah satu harapan dikeluarkannya undang – undang No. 32 Tahun 2004, tentang Pemerintahan Daerah, yaitu meletakkan dasar-dasar administrasi Pemerintahan Desa sehingga baik para pemimpin formal (Kepala Desa dan Pamong Desa), maupun para pemimpin informal (Kepala Suku, Pdt / Pastor dan para Tokoh) semakin tahu dan mampu menjadi pelopor dalam masyarakat, terutama dalam fungsi mereka sebagai jembatan yang menghubungkan antara kemauan pemerintah dan kepentingan masyarakat, maupun kepentingan masyarakat yang satu dengan masyarakat yang lainnya. Dalam fungsi demikian mereka menjandang beban mencerna dan menerangkan kebijaksanaan – kebijaksanaan umum dan prioritas pembangunan yang dirancang oleh pemerintah kemudian menjelaskannya ke segenap anggota masyarakat. Berhasil tidaknya proses pembuatan keputusan brgantung pada peranan elit formal dan informal dalam keikutsertaan mereka dalam proses pembuatan keputusan tersebut. menurut penulis, kedua elit tersebut sebaiknya berperan dalam proses pembuatan keputusan agar di peroleh hasil keputusan yang tepat. Oleh karena itu pembuatan keputusan itu di lakukan secara cermat dengan memperhatikan langkah-langkah sebagai berikut :1. Dimusyawarahkan lebih dahulu antara elit formal dan informal dengan anggota masyarakat agar keputusan yang diambil mempunyai bobot yang berkualitas serta dapat membentuk kelompok kerja yang sesuai dengan kepentingan desa.2. Keputusan yang diambil harus jelas, tidak bersimbang siur atau bertentangan satu sama lain, dan sedapat mungkin disertai dengan cara-cara pelaksanaannya diformulasikan dalam bentuk kata-kata yang sedarahana, mudah dipahami dan berlaku untuk semua golongan masyarakat desa.3. Keputusan harus diambil dalam waktu secapat mungkin. Terlalu lama mengambil keputusan akan menimbulkan ketegangan – ketegangan masyrakat sehingga menyulitkan penjelesaiannya dikemudian hari dan akan menimbulkan masalah baru.Dalam kehidupan masyarakat, setiap individu memiliki peran sesuai dengan profesionalisme ditempat mana saja ia berada. Bahkan setiap orang diharapkan dapat berperan dalam suatu komunikasi dan setiap orang harus belajar untuk mengisi perannya. Kenyataan yang ada Suku Dani dan Suku Damal, peranan elit informal (Kepala Suku) dalam proses pengambilan keputusan cukup besar, karena pengalaman dari para kepala suku dapat mengerakkan mempengaruhi partisipasi masyarakat yang ada di desa. Partisipasi masyarakat3merupakan modal yang besar dan sangat diperlukan dalam pelaksanaan pembangunan. Disamping sikap dan motivasi dari para elit informal juga turut mempengaruhi pelaksanaan pembangunan didesa dalam meningkatkan kesejahteraan masyarakat. Apabila dugaan ini benar maka kondisi – kondisi tersebut memberikan kontribusi yang besar dalam proses pengambilan keputusan. Konflik yang terjadi diantara Suku Dani dan Suku Damal yang ada di Kabupaten Timika, di mulai sejak Tahun 1997, yaitu didaerah tambang emas dimana kedua suku ini menjadikan Timika sebagai sumber mata pencaharian, berawal dari salah satu perempuan suku Dani di perkosa oleh salah satu anggota suku Damal , hal ini tidak dapat terima oleh suku Dani, secara spontan anggota suku Dani menyerang suku Damal, sehingga terjadinya perang antara suku Dani dan suku Damal. Kapasitas pemerintah dalam menyelesaikan konflik antara kedua suku hanyalah sampai pada pendekatan persuasif, yaitu mengajak untuk dapat mendiskusikan secara baik, agar tercapai suatu kesepakatan damai, namum upaya pemerintah tersebut sampai dengan saat ini tampaknya belum berhasil, karena kedua suku yang bertikai masih sangat mudah sekali untuk terpancing sehingga perdamaianpun tidak terwujud. Kepala suku dalam hal ini sebagai tokoh yang di kagumi, dan di hormati kerana kharisma dan kewibawaannya di mata masyarakat, mempunyai peranan penting untuk menyelesaikan konflik di antara kedua suku ini, karena kepala suku mempunyai kekuasaan untuk memberikan perintah kepada anggotanya agar tidak terjadi peperangan. Namum pada kenyataannya kepala suku yang ada Suku Dani dan Suku Damal, tidak mampu untuk meredam amarah dari masing – masing anggota sukunya, sehingga perang antara kedua sukupun tidak dapat terelakan. Hal ini di picu juga oleh latar belakang dari pada suku – suku yang ada di Kabupaten Timika, yaitu saling bersaing untuk mendapat pengakuan, suku mana terhebat, dan juga mempunyai kebiasaan berperang. Berdasarkan kenyataan yang di uraikan di atas, masalah dalam penelitian ini adalah peranan Kepala Suku dalam mengatai konflik, yaitu antara Suku Dani dan Suku Damal, sehingga tidak terjadi perang. PembahasanTanah Papua merupakan salah satu wilayah di indonesia yang masih menyimpang berbahagai macam permasalahan sosial. Salah satu masalah sosial yang sampai sekarang telah ada dan masih terjadi adalah konflik sosial. Konflik sosial yang terjadi di Tanah Papua sangat beragam dan mencakup semua ini kehidupan, melai dari aspek sosial, budaya, politik dan ekonomi. Konflik sosialyang terjadi di Tanah Papua pada beberapa tahun belakang ini4juga tidak terlepas dari pokok permasalahan tersebut utamanya adalah konflik sosial yang di picu oleh perbedaan suku, budaya dan golongan atau kelompok, sesuai dengan karakteristik dan dianggapnya sebagai salah satu permasalahan yang dapat merugikan dan mengganggu bahkan melanggar aturan dan norma yang berlaku pada suku-suku yang ada. Masalah persinahan atau perselingkuhan, pembunuhan, kematian tidak wajar, dan rasa dendam yang mendalammerupakan salah satu penyebab perang suku di daerah pedalaman Papua. Di samping itu konflik internal antara suku yang terjadi waktu lampau juga menjadi salah satu factor penyebab perang suku dan kelompok di daerah pedalaman Papua yang dapat menyebabkan kerugian secara fisik maupun materi lainnya. Konflik social yang ada di daerah ini sering di sebut sebagai perang suku atau bahasa dani di sebut wim sedangkan bahasa damal /amungme wem, sebab perang suku yang terjadi adalah antara suku-suku asli Papua yang mendiami daerah tersebut yaitu Suku Dani, Suku Nduga, Suku Delem, Suku Damal/ Amungme, Suku Moni, Suku Wolani, Serta Suku Ekari/ Me, dan Suku-Suku lainnya. Suku- Suku tersebut merupakan Suku – Suku yang mempunyai tradisi perang yang sangat kuat. Perdamaian perang suku yang di lakukan oleh pemda, Lembaga kemasyarakatan dan gereja pada dasarnya memiliki pola pemahaman dan penanganan yang sama. Perang suku di lihat dari suatu tindakan yang negative, sebagai suatu kriminalitas, yang bertentangan hukum-hukum positif maupun hokum-hukum agama. Karena pemahaman semacam ini, perang suku harus dihentikan dan ditiadakan. Dengan pemahaman semacam ini, peran ketiga lembaga di atas tidak lebih dari seorang polisi penjaga, yang melari dan menghentikan pertikaian.Anehnya, sekalipun ketiga Lembaga itu melihat perang sebagai suatu yang negative, tetapi dalam upaya mereka untuk menghentikan dan meniadakan perang suku, ketiganya justru memanfaatkan mekanisme penyelesaian secara adat membayar ganti rugi kepada pihak korban disertai upacara bakar batu. Ketiga lembaga itu percaya bahwa perang suku baru akan berhenti ketika pihak-pihak yang bertikai melakukan pembayaran ganti rugi disertai upacara bakar batu. Pengakuan tergadap nilai-nilai kulturan serta digunakan nilai-nilai tersebut untuk menyelesaikan perang suku, tentu merupakan suatu hal yang sangat penting dan bermanfaat. Terbukti, suatu perang suku baru bisa dihentikan ketika perang pembayaran ganti rugi serta upacara bakar batu dilaksanakan. Akan tetapi pola penanganan semacan ini punya dua kelemahan yang mendasar. Pertama, pola penanganan semacan ini bersifat persial. Artinya, penanganan semacan ini hanya efektif untuk satu kasus. Ketika kasus yang lain muncul maka perang akan muncul kembali. Kelemahan ini sudah terbukti dalam sejarah. Meskipun perdamaian secara adat telah sering dilakukan untuk menghentikan dan mendamaikan pihak-5pihak yang terlihat dalam perang suku, akan tetapi ketika masalah yang baru muncul maka perang kembali terjadi. Kenyataan seperti ini memperlihatkan bahwa upacara bakar batu ganti rugi dan upacara bakar batu ganti rugi bukan suatu bentuk penyelesaiak konflik yang bersifat preventif. Padahal, ketika perang dilihat sebagai sesuatu yang negative di perlukan suatu mekanisme penyelesaian perang suku yang bersifat preventif sehingga perang tidak terus menerus terulang. Kedua, penanganan secara adat justru akan semakin memperkokoh keutamaan kategorisasi (kelompok) social. Padahal kategorisasi social justru menjadi penyebab utama dari berbagai konflik social. Ketika keutamaan dari kategorisasi social ini terus merus dikukuhkan, itu berarti konflik social akan terus terulang. Atau, dengan kata lain ketika nilai-nilai cultural setiap suku yang ada di pedalaman terus menerus di pertahankan dan mendapatkan legalitas secara politik maupun religious maka perang antar suku akan terus menerus terjadi. Bagi peneliti kedua kelemahan itu memunculkan suatu tanya: kenapa pembayaran ganti rugi dan upacara bakar batu yang secara historis tidak mampu menyelesaikan konflik secara permanen dan justru semakin memperkokoh penyebab utama perang suku yaitu keutamaan kategorisasi social terus-menerus dilakukan? adakah berbagai kepentingan yang bermain dibalik perang suku dan upacara bakar batu? Penulis melihat adanya beberapa indicator yang mengarah kepada hal itu, yaitu: 1. Secara ekonomis, perang suku dan upacara bakar batu selalu menghabiskan biaya yang tidak kecil. Setiap terjadi perang, harta benda yang menjadi korban atau dikorbankan tidaklah sedikit dan biaya pembayaran ganti rugi dan upacara pelaksanaan bakar batu bias mencapai Rp 500.jt,.( lima ratus juta) sampai Rp.1.m,- (satu meliar). Kenyataan semacam ini akan berdampak terjadinya kemiskinan di antara masyarakat Papua. Akibat lebih lanjut dari kemiskinan ini ialah masyarakat papua akan kesulitan dalam mengembangkan potensi-potensi yang mereka miliki sehingga citra sebagai "masyarakat termiskin" di Indonesia terus dipertahankan.2. Aspek ekonomis itu pada gilirannya juga berdampak secara politis. Ada dua dampak politis yang bias dilihat.a). jika citra sebagai masyarakat termiskin bisa dipertahankan dalam jangka waktu yang semakin lama, maka akan memunculkan sebuah citra baru bagi masyarakat Papua, yaitu citra sebagai masyarakat yang tergantung pada pihak lain. Jika persoalan ini dikaitkan dengan persoalan politik yang terus bergejolak di Papua, akan menjadi alat yang akan meredam keinginan sebagian masyarakat Papua untuk merdeka. Bagaimana mereka bisa merdeka, jika hidup mereka masih sangat tergantung6pada pihak lain? b). Masih dalam kaitannya dengan pergolakan politik di Papua, perang antar suku juga akan semakin menyulitkan keinginan sebagian masyarakat Papua untuk merdeka. Bagaimana mereka bisa merdeka, ketika pikiran, tenaga dan sumber-sumber ekonomi yang mereka miliki senantiasa dipusatkan untuk berperang dan mengatasinya? 4. Hak Asasi Manusia. Setiap terjadi perang, satu-persatu masyarakat Papua meninggal dunia sebagai korban perang. Jika perang terus menerus terjadi, pelan tapi pasti Ras Melanesia di Papua akan hilang akibat konflik di antara mereka sendiri. Jika persoalan seperti ini dikaitkan dengan persoalan diseputar penyakit AIDS yang banyak diderita oleh masyarakat Papua, maka pertanyaan yang muncul kemudian adalah apakah ada kepentingan genocide dibalik perang suku ?siapakah pihak-pihak yang berkepentingan dengan itu? 5. Ketika, Pemerintah Daerah, Lembaga Kemasyarakatan Adat dan juga gereja terus mengupayakan penyelesaian secara adat, maka pertanyaan yang pantas diajukan kepada ketiga lembaga itu adalah apakah ketiga lembaga itu berkepentingan dengan berbagai citra yang muncul akibat adanya perang suku ? apakah mereka turut bermain di situ ? lalu apa kepentingan mereka itu? Untuk menjawab pertanyaan tersebut adalah tugas bangsa papua yang cinta tanah Papua .pertanyaan-pertanyaan ini sebagai catatan kritis penulis bagi proses penanganan perang suku yang dilakukan oleh ketiga lembaga tadi.Menurut peneliti, penanganan perang suku yang dilakukan secara adat terbukti tidak mampu mengatasi perang suku secara permanen.Penanganan yang hanya mengedepankan persoalan cultural itu justru semakin mengukuhkan penyebab utama konflik, yaitu kategorisasi sosial.Oleh karena itu perlu diusahakan suatu bentuk penanganan konflik yang baru. Sebuah pertanyaan yang pantas dikedepankan dalam upaya mencari solusi terbaik bagi perang suku adalah ketika nilai-nilai kesukuan menjadi penyebab utama dari perang suku, apakah nilai-nilai kesukuan harus dihilangkan? Jawaban akan hal ini tentu bukan hal yang mudah. Sebab ketika nilai-nilai kesukuan dihilangkan, akan beresiko terjadinya ketercerabutan kultural. Untuk mengatasi hal ini, sumbangan teori identitas sosial dalam menangani konflik sosial akan sangat berguna, utamanya proposalnya tentang dekategorisasi dan rekategorisasi. Melalui dekategorisasi, keterikatan individu dengan kelompoknya dieliminir sedemikian rupa sehingga hubungan antar individu semakin dipersonalkan.Sehingga ketika berinteraksi, setiap inidividu tidak mewakili kelompoknya, tetapi sebagai seorang individu-individu yang unik. Pun demikian dalam hal cara pandang individu terhadap yang lain. Karena individu bukan wakil suatu kelompok, maka ketika7terjadi konflik antar individu, kelompok tidak turut terlibat dalam konflik. Dekategorisasi akan mempersempit wilayah konflik sehingga terbatas pada konflik antar individu. Pada titik ini, penyelesaian konflik antar individu yang bisa memuaskan kedua belah pihak perlu dipikirkan.Sejarah perang suku dalam sepuluh tahun terakhir memperlihatkan bahwa semula perang suku terjadi karena konflik antar individu.Pihak-pihak yang terlibat konflik tidak puas dengan penyelesaian berdasarkan hukum positif.Sebab, disamping rendahnya kesadaran mereka terhadap hukum positif, mereka juga melihat bahwa hukum positif tidak mampu menggantikan sesuatu yang hilang akibat dari suatu kasus, yaitu persoalan harga diri.Sebagai ganti, mereka lebih menyukai penyelesaian berdasarkan hukum-hukum adat.Berdasarkan pada hal ini, nilai-nilai kultural suku-suku yang ada di papua perlu dipikirkan sebagai salah satu acuan hukum untuk menyelesaikan kasus-kasus yang bisa memicu lahirnya perang suku. Jalan untuk memanfaatkan nilai-nilai kultural sebenarnya sudah terbuka lebar. Sebab pemerintah Indonesia telah mengeluarkan UU no. 21 tahun 2001, bab XIV tentang kekuasaan peradilan. UU tersebut mengatakan bahwa "peradilan adalah peradilan perdamaian di lingkungan masyarakat hukum adat, yang mempunyai kewenangan memeriksa dan mengadili sengketa perdata adat dan perkara pidana di antara para warga masyarakat hukum adat yang bersangkutan."Dan ayat 2 dikatakan "pengadilan adat di susun menurut ketentuan hukum adat masyarakat hukum adat yang bersangkutan." Mencermati isi dari ketentuan-ketentuan tersebut, akan sangat bijak ketika sebuah institusi peradilan adat yang eksistensi dan otoritasnya diakui oleh semua kelompok suku yang ada dibangun. Suku-suku di pedalaman Papua pada dasarnya patuh pada hukum, sepanjang hukum itu memang berpihak kepada kepentingan orang banyak, diwadahi dalam, satu sistem yang profesional dan bebas dari intervensi pihak manapun, dan para penegaknya dapat menjadi suri teladan bagi masyarakat suku. Keadaan yang disebut di atas ini merupakan salah satu modal dasar yang ampuh dalam rangka mencari kesejahtraan rakyat Papua. Di dalam hukum adat maupun hukum positif di Papua khusunya, supremasi hukum itu sendiri harus ditegakan juga agar terlihat secara nyata dalam penanganan perang.Hal ini penting mengingat tingkat kepercayaan masyarakat terhadap nilai-nilai adat masih sangat tinggi dibanding dengan kepercayaan mereka terhadap hukum positif.Dekategorisasi sebenarnya merupakan suatu usaha untuk membentuk suatu budaya baru yang lebih menonjolkan sisi individualitas manusia daripada komunalitasnya. Harus jujur diakui bahwa masalah diseputar budaya individualitas dan komunalitas merupakan8persoalan yang cukup pelik dan menjadi debat yang berkepanjangan, bukan saja bagi para teoritisi tetapi juga para praktisi budaya. Tanpa bermaksud terlibat dalam debat tersebut, untuk kepentingan tulisan ini cukup dikatakan bahwa dalam konteks masyarakat Papua, komunalitas yang berpusat pada ikatan-ikatan kesukuan telah menjadi persoalan serius dan berulang kali memicu lahirnya perang suku. Oleh karena itu komunalitas tersebut perlu dieliminir dengan menonjolkan sisi individualitas. Membentuk suatu budaya baru yang menonjolkan sisi individualitas, bukan suatu usaha yang mudah.Pekerjaan semacam itu membutuhkan waktu yang cukup lama dan berkesinambungan.Ia memerlukan proses sosialisasi baik formal maupun non formal. Sadar dengan kenyataan semacam ini, dunia pendidikan di Papua akan mempunyai peran yang sangat penting dalam usaha menciptakan suatu budaya baru yang bisa mengeliminir sisi komunalitas suku-suku yang ada di sana. Dunia pendidikan perlu merancang suatu kurikulum pendidikan yang sesuai untuk tujuan tersebut. Bersamaan dengan proses dekategorisasi dan pembangunan institusi hukum adat, proses rekategorisasi perlu dibangun. Dengan rekategorisasi berbagai kelompok suku yang ada disatukan dalam suatu kelompok yang lebih besar dengan identitas bersama yang baru. Tujuan utama yang hendak dicapai dalam proses rekategorisasi. Pertama, rekategorisasi dimaksudkan untuk mencari alternative bagi nilai-nilai yang hilang akibat proses dekategorisasi, yaitu terkikisnya ikatan-ikatan komunalitas lama dengan menciptakan ikatan-ikatan komunalitas yang baru. Khusus "perang suku" di Mimika, sumber konflik Dani-Amungme juga harus dipahami. Amungme, selain orang Kamoro, adalah tuan tanah di Mimika. Orang Dani (dan suku-suku pegunungan lain seperti Mee, Nduga, dll.) adalah pendatang yang pelan-pelan mengokupasi tanah dan lahan Amungme.Jumlah orang Dani terus membesar melebihi Amungme.Dalam banyak hal Amungme selalu merasa terteror dengan tingkah laku mereka."Perang suku" antara mereka sudah pecah sejak paruh kedua 1990-an.Sumber konflik antara mereka tidak hanya yang tradisional seperti perempuan, babi, perzinahan atau lainnya, tapi juga soal dana bantuan Freeport, pemekaran, Otsus, politik Papua Merdeka, atau bahkan pilkada. Itu artinya pihak luar seperti Freeport, pihak aparat keamanan, dan pemain pendatang sangat mungkin ikut berperan. Harus diakui tradisi kekerasan dalam bentuk "perang suku" ada di mana-mana di tanah Papua. Dokumen VOC Belanda di abad ke 17 menunjukkan orang-orang di sekitar Fakfak (dulu Onin), Kaimana (dulu Kobiai), Raja Ampat, Biak, dan lain-lain sudah punya tradisi "perang suku" dan bahkan9menjual tawanan perangnya sebagai budak di pasar Seram Timur. Tapi "perang suku" di daerah-daerah pantai ini sudah berhenti berkat pengaruh luar, sebagian oleh masuknya Islam dari Maluku, kemudian pasifikasi oleh Pemerintah Kolonial Belanda, dan sivilisasi oleh kalangan zending dan missionaris sekitar awal abad ke 20. Pengaruh luar datang lebih lambat di daerah pedalaman dan pegunungan.Baru setelah Perang Dunia II umumnya Gereja dan pemerintah Kolonial Belanda masuk. Persebaran suku-suku yang sangat luas dan sulit dijangkau, membuat banyak komunitas suku tidak tersentuh pengaruh pemerintahan modern atau pun Gereja. Yang sudah tersentuh Gereja atau Pemerintah pun masih berkeras melanjutkan "perang suku".Dani, Damal, dan Amungme adalah suku-suku yang sudah mengenal Gereja dan pemerintahan modern sejak 1950-an. Di Wamena sendiri, tempat asal kebanyakan suku Dani, perdamaian kolosal pernah terjadi pada 1993.Sejak itu pihak-pihak yang bertikai tidak pernah berperang lagi di Wamena. Tapi di daerah pegunungan lain kita masih sering mendengar berita "perang suku". Bagi peneliti kedua kelemahan itu memunculkan suatu tanya: kenapa pembayaran ganti rugi dan upacara bakar batu yang secara historis tidak mampu menyelesaikan konflik secara permanen dan justru semakin memperkokoh penyebab utama perang suku yaitu keutamaan kategorisasi social terus-menerus dilakukan? adakah berbagai kepentingan yang bermain dibalik perang suku dan upacara bakar batu? Penulis melihat adanya beberapa indicator yang mengarah kepada hal itu, yaitu: 1. Secara ekonomis, perang suku dan upacara bakar batu selalu menghabiskan biaya yang tidak kecil. Setiap terjadi perang, harta benda yang menjadi korban atau dikorbankan tidaklah sedikit dan biaya pembayaran ganti rugi dan upacara pelaksanaan bakar batu bias mencapai Rp 500.jt,.( lima ratus juta) sampai Rp.1.m,- (satu meliar). Kenyataan semacam ini akan berdampak terjadinya kemiskinan di antara masyarakat Papua. Akibat lebih lanjut dari kemiskinan ini ialah masyarakat papua akan kesulitan dalam mengembangkan potensi-potensi yang mereka miliki sehingga citra sebagai "masyarakat termiskin" di Indonesia terus dipertahankan.2. Aspek ekonomis itu pada gilirannya juga berdampak secara politis. Ada dua dampak politis yang bias dilihat.a). jika citra sebagai masyarakat termiskin bisa dipertahankan dalam jangka waktu yang semakin lama, maka akan memunculkan sebuah citra baru bagi masyarakat Papua, yaitu citra sebagai masyarakat yang tergantung pada pihak lain. Jika persoalan ini dikaitkan dengan persoalan politik yang terus bergejolak di Papua, akan menjadi alat yang akan meredam keinginan sebagian masyarakat Papua untuk10merdeka. Bagaimana mereka bisa merdeka, jika hidup mereka masih sangat tergantung pada pihak lain? b). Masih dalam kaitannya dengan pergolakan politik di Papua, perang antar suku juga akan semakin menyulitkan keinginan sebagian masyarakat Papua untuk merdeka. Bagaimana mereka bisa merdeka, ketika pikiran, tenaga dan sumber-sumber ekonomi yang mereka miliki senantiasa dipusatkan untuk berperang dan mengatasinya? 4. Hak Asasi Manusia. Setiap terjadi perang, satu-persatu masyarakat Papua meninggal dunia sebagai korban perang. Jika perang terus menerus terjadi, pelan tapi pasti Ras Melanesia di Papua akan hilang akibat konflik di antara mereka sendiri. Jika persoalan seperti ini dikaitkan dengan persoalan diseputar penyakit AIDS yang banyak diderita oleh masyarakat Papua, maka pertanyaan yang muncul kemudian adalah apakah ada kepentingan genocide dibalik perang suku ?siapakah pihak-pihak yang berkepentingan dengan itu? 5. Ketika, Pemerintah Daerah, Lembaga Kemasyarakatan Adat dan juga gereja terus mengupayakan penyelesaian secara adat, maka pertanyaan yang pantas diajukan kepada ketiga lembaga itu adalah apakah ketiga lembaga itu berkepentingan dengan berbagai citra yang muncul akibat adanya perang suku ? apakah mereka turut bermain di situ ? lalu apa kepentingan mereka itu? Untuk menjawab pertanyaan tersebut adalah tugas bangsa papua yang cinta tanah Papua .pertanyaan-pertanyaan ini sebagai catatan kritis penulis bagi proses penanganan perang suku yang dilakukan oleh ketiga lembaga tadi.Menurut peneliti, penanganan perang suku yang dilakukan secara adat terbukti tidak mampu mengatasi perang suku secara permanen.Penanganan yang hanya mengedepankan persoalan cultural itu justru semakin mengukuhkan penyebab utama konflik, yaitu kategorisasi sosial.Oleh karena itu perlu diusahakan suatu bentuk penanganan konflik yang baru. Sebuah pertanyaan yang pantas dikedepankan dalam upaya mencari solusi terbaik bagi perang suku adalah ketika nilai-nilai kesukuan menjadi penyebab utama dari perang suku, apakah nilai-nilai kesukuan harus dihilangkan? Jawaban akan hal ini tentu bukan hal yang mudah. Sebab ketika nilai-nilai kesukuan dihilangkan, akan beresiko terjadinya ketercerabutan kultural. Untuk mengatasi hal ini, sumbangan teori identitas sosial dalam menangani konflik sosial akan sangat berguna, utamanya proposalnya tentang dekategorisasi dan rekategorisasi. Melalui dekategorisasi, keterikatan individu dengan kelompoknya dieliminir sedemikian rupa sehingga hubungan antar individu semakin dipersonalkan.Sehingga ketika berinteraksi, setiap inidividu tidak mewakili kelompoknya,11tetapi sebagai seorang individu-individu yang unik. Pun demikian dalam hal cara pandang individu terhadap yang lain. Karena individu bukan wakil suatu kelompok, maka ketika terjadi konflik antar individu, kelompok tidak turut terlibat dalam konflik. Dekategorisasi akan mempersempit wilayah konflik sehingga terbatas pada konflik antar individu. Pada titik ini, penyelesaian konflik antar individu yang bisa memuaskan kedua belah pihak perlu dipikirkan.Sejarah perang suku dalam sepuluh tahun terakhir memperlihatkan bahwa semula perang suku terjadi karena konflik antar individu.Pihak-pihak yang terlibat konflik tidak puas dengan penyelesaian berdasarkan hukum positif.Sebab, disamping rendahnya kesadaran mereka terhadap hukum positif, mereka juga melihat bahwa hukum positif tidak mampu menggantikan sesuatu yang hilang akibat dari suatu kasus, yaitu persoalan harga diri.Sebagai ganti, mereka lebih menyukai penyelesaian berdasarkan hukum-hukum adat.Berdasarkan pada hal ini, nilai-nilai kultural suku-suku yang ada di papua perlu dipikirkan sebagai salah satu acuan hukum untuk menyelesaikan kasus-kasus yang bisa memicu lahirnya perang suku. Jalan untuk memanfaatkan nilai-nilai kultural sebenarnya sudah terbuka lebar. Sebab pemerintah Indonesia telah mengeluarkan UU no. 21 tahun 2001, bab XIV tentang kekuasaan peradilan. UU tersebut mengatakan bahwa "peradilan adalah peradilan perdamaian di lingkungan masyarakat hukum adat, yang mempunyai kewenangan memeriksa dan mengadili sengketa perdata adat dan perkara pidana di antara para warga masyarakat hukum adat yang bersangkutan."Dan ayat 2 dikatakan "pengadilan adat di susun menurut ketentuan hukum adat masyarakat hukum adat yang bersangkutan." Mencermati isi dari ketentuan-ketentuan tersebut, akan sangat bijak ketika sebuah institusi peradilan adat yang eksistensi dan otoritasnya diakui oleh semua kelompok suku yang ada dibangun. Suku-suku di pedalaman Papua pada dasarnya patuh pada hukum, sepanjang hukum itu memang berpihak kepada kepentingan orang banyak, diwadahi dalam, satu sistem yang profesional dan bebas dari intervensi pihak manapun, dan para penegaknya dapat menjadi suri teladan bagi masyarakat suku. Keadaan yang disebut di atas ini merupakan salah satu modal dasar yang ampuh dalam rangka mencari kesejahtraan rakyat Papua. Di dalam hukum adat maupun hukum positif di Papua khusunya, supremasi hukum itu sendiri harus ditegakan juga agar terlihat secara nyata dalam penanganan perang.Hal ini penting mengingat tingkat kepercayaan masyarakat terhadap nilai-nilai adat masih sangat tinggi dibanding dengan kepercayaan mereka terhadap hukum positif.Dekategorisasi sebenarnya merupakan suatu usaha untuk membentuk suatu budaya baru yang lebih menonjolkan sisi individualitas manusia daripada komunalitasnya. Harus12jujur diakui bahwa masalah diseputar budaya individualitas dan komunalitas merupakan persoalan yang cukup pelik dan menjadi debat yang berkepanjangan, bukan saja bagi para teoritisi tetapi juga para praktisi budaya. Tanpa bermaksud terlibat dalam debat tersebut, untuk kepentingan tulisan ini cukup dikatakan bahwa dalam konteks masyarakat Papua, komunalitas yang berpusat pada ikatan-ikatan kesukuan telah menjadi persoalan serius dan berulang kali memicu lahirnya perang suku. Oleh karena itu komunalitas tersebut perlu dieliminir dengan menonjolkan sisi individualitas. Membentuk suatu budaya baru yang menonjolkan sisi individualitas, bukan suatu usaha yang mudah.Pekerjaan semacam itu membutuhkan waktu yang cukup lama dan berkesinambungan.Ia memerlukan proses sosialisasi baik formal maupun non formal. Sadar dengan kenyataan semacam ini, dunia pendidikan di Papua akan mempunyai peran yang sangat penting dalam usaha menciptakan suatu budaya baru yang bisa mengeliminir sisi komunalitas suku-suku yang ada di sana. Dunia pendidikan perlu merancang suatu kurikulum pendidikan yang sesuai untuk tujuan tersebut. Bersamaan dengan proses dekategorisasi dan pembangunan institusi hukum adat, proses rekategorisasi perlu dibangun. Dengan rekategorisasi berbagai kelompok suku yang ada disatukan dalam suatu kelompok yang lebih besar dengan identitas bersama yang baru. Tujuan utama yang hendak dicapai dalam proses rekategorisasi. Pertama, rekategorisasi dimaksudkan untuk mencari alternative bagi nilai-nilai yang hilang akibat proses dekategorisasi, yaitu terkikisnya ikatan-ikatan komunalitas lama dengan menciptakan ikatan-ikatan komunalitas yang baru. Khusus "perang suku" di Mimika, sumber konflik Dani-Amungme juga harus dipahami. Amungme, selain orang Kamoro, adalah tuan tanah di Mimika. Orang Dani (dan suku-suku pegunungan lain seperti Mee, Nduga, dll.) adalah pendatang yang pelan-pelan mengokupasi tanah dan lahan Amungme.Jumlah orang Dani terus membesar melebihi Amungme.Dalam banyak hal Amungme selalu merasa terteror dengan tingkah laku mereka."Perang suku" antara mereka sudah pecah sejak paruh kedua 1990-an.Sumber konflik antara mereka tidak hanya yang tradisional seperti perempuan, babi, perzinahan atau lainnya, tapi juga soal dana bantuan Freeport, pemekaran, Otsus, politik Papua Merdeka, atau bahkan pilkada. Itu artinya pihak luar seperti Freeport, pihak aparat keamanan, dan pemain pendatang sangat mungkin ikut berperan. Harus diakui tradisi kekerasan dalam bentuk "perang suku" ada di mana-mana di tanah Papua. Dokumen VOC Belanda di abad ke 17 menunjukkan orang-orang di sekitar Fakfak (dulu Onin), Kaimana (dulu Kobiai), Raja Ampat, Biak, dan lain-lain sudah punya tradisi "perang suku" dan bahkan13menjual tawanan perangnya sebagai budak di pasar Seram Timur. Tapi "perang suku" di daerah-daerah pantai ini sudah berhenti berkat pengaruh luar, sebagian oleh masuknya Islam dari Maluku, kemudian pasifikasi oleh Pemerintah Kolonial Belanda, dan sivilisasi oleh kalangan zending dan missionaris sekitar awal abad ke 20. Pengaruh luar datang lebih lambat di daerah pedalaman dan pegunungan.Baru setelah Perang Dunia II umumnya Gereja dan pemerintah Kolonial Belanda masuk. Persebaran suku-suku yang sangat luas dan sulit dijangkau, membuat banyak komunitas suku tidak tersentuh pengaruh pemerintahan modern atau pun Gereja. Yang sudah tersentuh Gereja atau Pemerintah pun masih berkeras melanjutkan "perang suku".Dani, Damal, dan Amungme adalah suku-suku yang sudah mengenal Gereja dan pemerintahan modern sejak 1950-an. Di Wamena sendiri, tempat asal kebanyakan suku Dani, perdamaian kolosal pernah terjadi pada 1993.Sejak itu pihak-pihak yang bertikai tidak pernah berperang lagi di Wamena. Tapi di daerah pegunungan lain kita masih sering mendengar berita "perang suku". KESIMPULAN Berdasarkan hasil penelitian pada bagian terdahulu, penelitian ini dapat disimpulkan sebagai berikut:1. Kepala suku sebagai pemimpin informal melakukan perannya sesuai dengan tradisi, adat, budaya yang lahir tumbuh dan berkembang di tanah Papua dari nenek moyang mereka, dimana sudah menjadi suatu kewajiban untuk tetap mempertahankan kehormatan suku yang dipimpinnya, sehingga berperang merupakan suatu kehormatan untuk mencapai kemenangan demi mempertahankan martabat suku yang dipimpinnya. Kekalahan yang menimpa salah satu suku menjadi suatu hinaan bagi kepala sukunya, sehingga kepala suku akan terus mencari cara keluar dari hinaan tersebut, dan terus menyemangati para anggota sukunya untuk tetap semangat meraih kembali kehormatan yang hilang karena kekalahan dalam berperang.2. Kepemimpinan kepala suku dalam mengatasi konflik bukanlah menjadi solusi yang tepat, karena kepala suku tidak akan dapat meredam konflik masing-masing anggota sukunya.3. Konflik yang terjadi di Timika antara suku Dani dan Damal, tidak bisa hanya diselesaikan dengan menggunakan hukum positif yang berlaku, begitu pula dengan pendekatan secara keagamaan, karena sebelum agama masuk ke tanah papua, tradisi berperang antar suku ini sudah menjadi budaya.14SARAN1. Pemerintah harus mampu lebih kritis lagi mencari tahu penyebab konflik ini, bukan hanya sekedar mencari pemicunya, apabila hal ini merupakan suatu tradisi budaya, hal-hal yang lebih konkrit dan kompleks harus lebih dikedepankan, seperti mengundang antar suku yang bertikai, tokoh adat, dan tokoh agama.2. Dalam menyelesaikan konflik ini, pemerintah harus mencari orang tengah, bukan hanya sekedar mencari pemimpin sukunya, yang biasanya berperan memimpin perang suku, jumlahnya bisa lebih dari satu.3. Carilah dahulu "orang belakang" karena orang inilah yang memiliki otoritas ritual perang dan perdamaian. "Tuan perang" dan "orang belakang" biasanya tersembunyi dan dilindungi15DAFTAR PUSTAKA Adisasmita, Rahardjo. 2006. Pembangunan Pedesaan dan Perkotaan, Yogyakarta, Graha Ilmu Bintarto R, Buku Penuntun Geografi Sosial, Yogyakarta, UP.Spring, 1969, hal. 95. Bartle, Phill, 2002. Participatory Method of Measuring Empowerment.Modul Pelatihan Pemberdayaan. Daldjoeni, N dan A. Suyitno. 2004. Pedesaan, Lingkungan dan Pembangunan. Bandung: PT. Alumni Dahl, Robert,1983.Democracy and Its Critics.New Haven Conn: Yale University Press. Friedmann, John. 1992. Empowerment: The Politics of Alternative Development. Chambridge: Blackwell Publishers. Hulme, David & M. Turner, 1990.Sociology of Development: Theories, Policies and Practices. Hertfordshire: Harvester Whearsheaf. Kartasasmita, Ginandjar. 1997. Administrasi Pembangunan. Jakarta: LP3ES. Momon Soetisna Sendjaja, Sjachran Basan,1983,Pokok-Pokok Pemerintahan di Daerah dan Pemerintahan Desa, Bandung, Alumni. Paul, Samuel, 1987. Community Participation in Development Projects-The World Bank Experience.Washington DC: The World Bank. Soetrisno, Loekman, 1995. Menuju Masyarakat Partisipatif. Yogyakarta: Penerbit Kanisius.Sri Sudaryatmi, Sukirno,TH. Sri Kartini, Beberapa Aspek Hukum Adat, Badan Penerbit Undip, Semarang. Sugiyono, 2007, Memahami Penelitian Kualitatif.Alfabeta; Bandung. Suharto, Edi. 1997. Pembangunan, Kebijakan Sosial dan Pekerjaan Sosial: Spektrum Pemikiran. Bandung : Lembaga Studi Pembangunan STKS (LSPSTKS). Suharto, Edi. 2006. Membangun Masyarakat Memberdayakan Rakyat. Bandung : PT. Refika Aditama. Sulistiyani, Ambar Teguh, 2004. Kemitraan dan Modul-modul Pemberdayaan. Yogyakarta: Gava Media. Tampubolon, Mangatas. 2006. Pendidikan Pola Pemberdayaan Masyarakat Dan Pemberdayaan Partisipasi Masyarakat Dalam Pembangunan Sesuai Tuntutan Otonomi Daerah. Trijono, Lambang. 2007. Pembangunan Sebagai Perdamaian : Rekonstruksi Indonesia Pasca-Konflik. Jakarta : Yayasan Obor Indonesia.

Bertrand Badie sur le moment Trump, la science de la souffrance, et les RI
entre puissance et faiblesse

read in English






La discipline de RI se focalise traditionnellement sur l'enjeu de pouvoir
entre états. Mais, s'interroge Bertrand Badie, est-ce que cela veut dire que
notre discipline est basée sur la négation de notre humanité ? Un géant
dans les RI françaises, Badie a œuvré pour remplacer le pouvoir et pour mettre
la souffrance au cœur de l'analyse de l'international, en appliquant des idées
sociologiques sur une réalité véritablement globale. Dans ce Talk, Badie, entre autres, défie la
centralité de l'idée de pouvoir, qui a peu de sens dans un monde où la plupart
de l'agenda international est défini par des défis qu'émanent de la faiblesse ;
défend la centralité de la souffrance pour une discipline de RI plus adaptée ;
et utilise ces idées de base pour contextualiser le Moment Trump.




Quel est selon vous actuellement le plus grand défi ou débat dans le
domaine des Relations Internationales ? Quelle est votre position vis-à-vis de
cet ou ces enjeu(x) ?



Incontestablement, c'est la question du
changement. C'est à dire que le moment est venu de conceptualiser, et au-delà
même, de théoriser le changement qui s'effectue dans les Relations
Internationales (RI). On a toujours le sentiment qu'on vit une période de
changement, mais concernant les RI nous avons plusieurs repères qui montrent
l'effectivité du changement. J'en vois au moins trois.



Le premier, c'est la nature inclusive
du système international. Pour la première fois dans l'Histoire de l'humanité
le système international couvre la quasi-totalité de l'humanité, alors que le
système Westphalien était un système Européen dans lequel les Etats-Unis sont
entrés pour en faire un système, je dirais, euro-nord-américain.



Deuxième élément, et plusieurs ouvrages
déjà ont permis de le montrer, il y a une mutation profonde de la nature du
conflit. La guerre était autrefois, dans le modèle Westphalien, une affaire de
compétition de puissance. Aujourd'hui on a le sentiment que la faiblesse
remplace la puissance, c'est à dire la puissance n'est plus explicative des
situations belligènes, que l'on doit trouver davantage dans les manifestations
de faiblesse : que ce soit les « collapsing states », c'est à dire le
déchirement des Nations souvent mal ou hâtivement construites ou encore la
déliquescence des liens sociaux. Cette nouvelle conflictualité vient
complètement bouleverser la donne internationale et constitue un deuxième
marqueur de transformation.



Le troisième axe, c'est ce que
j'appellerais la mobilité. Tout notre système international reposait sur l'idée
de territoire et de frontière, sur l'idée de fixité marquant de manière très
précise les compétences des Etats. L'Etat renvoie au territoire, comme la
définition donnée par Max Weber l'indique très clairement, alors qu'aujourd'hui
le territoire est défié par toute une série de mobilités, c'est à dire de flux transnationaux
: qu'il s'agisse de flux commerciaux, de flux d'informations ou de flux humains
à travers notamment toutes les diverses formes de migrations.



Donc voilà au moins trois indicateurs
objectifs d'une transformation profonde de la nature même des RI qui m'incitent
d'abord à parler plus volontiers désormais de « relations intersociales »
plus que de « relations interétatiques ». Les relations entre Etats
ne saturent plus le jeu mondial et ça amène à considérer que toute notre
théorie des RI reposait sur le modèle Westphalien tel qu'il est issu de la paix
de Westphalie, tel qu'il a été confirmé par l'accomplissement du travail de
construction des Etats-Nations et tel qu'il a dominé l'actualité internationale
jusqu'à la chute du Mur. Jusqu'à la chute du Mur, ce qui ne relevait pas de l'Europe
et des Etats-Unis, et de l'Amérique du Nord disons plus exactement, était nommé
périphérique, ce qui en dit long. Aujourd'hui la périphérie est centrale au
moins du point de vue de la conflictualité, donc il faut abandonner notre
grammaire Westphalienne et construire un nouveau guide d'analyse des RI qui
tienne compte de ces mutations. Supprimer notre grammaire Westphalienne des RI,
c'est remettre en cause notre théorie classique des RI et c'est remettre en
cause aussi les modèles pratiques d'action en politique internationale, c'est à
dire l'ordinaire de la diplomatie.





Comment est-ce que vous êtes arrivé dans votre pensée autour les Relations
Internationales ?



Vous savez souvent quand on écrit,
quand on travaille, on est d'abord influencé par son insatisfaction. C'est à
dire que la théorie classique Westphalienne des RI, comme je l'ai dit tout à
l'heure, ne me satisfaisait pas parce que j'avais l'impression qu'elle
focalisait sur des évènements qui n'avaient plus l'importance qu'on continuait
à leur prêter, par exemple la course aux armement, les relations entre
puissances ou les négociations diplomatiques traditionnelles alors que je
voyais, peut-être est-ce là l'élément déclenchant, que l'essentiel des
souffrances dans le monde venait d'espaces que ne couvrait pas réellement la
théorie des RI.



J'ai toujours dit à mes étudiants que
les RI c'était la science des souffrances humaines. Ces souffrances bien sûr
elles existent chez nous, elles existent en Europe, elles existent en Amérique
du Nord, elles existent partout dans le monde mais l'essentiel des souffrances
se situe hors champ westphalien et du coup l'analyse classique des RI en
donnait une image tout d'abord marginale et déformée. L'Afrique ou le Moyen
Orient vus au prisme du système Westphalien avaient une allure aplatie qui ne
correspondait en rien à l'extraordinaire richesse, en bien et en mal, de ces
régions du monde. Je considérais aussi que dans un monde où 6 à 9 millions
d'individus meurent de faim chaque année, les grands agendas des RI classiques
étaient dérisoires. Même le terrorisme, auquel on donne tant d'importance, a
des scores dérisoires par rapport à ceux de l'insécurité alimentaire.



Mes trois derniers livres sont trois
cris de révolte contre la théorie classique des RI. La diplomatie de
connivence est un livre dans lequel j'ai essayé de montrer qu'en réalité le
jeu des puissances était un jeu beaucoup plus intégré qu'on ne le dit et
renvoyant souvent à de fausses conflictualités. Il y a bien un club, et c'est
ça que j'essayais de décrire, un club de puissants.



Le Temps des humiliés était là
pour mettre en scène justement ce que la théorie classique ne savait pas
exprimer, c'est à dire la domination vue du côté des dominés, l'humiliation vue
du côté des humiliés, la violence vue du côté des désespérés. Même si on
regarde des puissances aussi accomplies que la Chine aujourd'hui, première ex
aequo avec les Etats-Unis en PIB, il faut bien admettre que la mémoire de
l'humiliation constitue pour la Chine une source énorme d'inspiration et
d'élaboration de son actuelle politique étrangère.



Et puis, dans mon dernier livre Nous
ne sommes plus seuls au monde, là le cri était encore plus direct, c'est à
dire nous sommes en train d'écrire les RI qui concernent un gros milliard
d'êtres humains en oubliant tous les autres et aujourd'hui ce ne sont pas ces
vieilles puissances qui font l'agenda international. Il est écrit à
l'initiative du petit, du faible, du dominé, avec bien entendu des recours à
des formes de violences extrêmes, mais qu'il faut essayer d'analyser et de
comprendre, donc totalement renverser la théorie des RI.



Il ne faut pas oublier que l'essentiel
de la théorie des RI nous a été livré par les Etats-Unis triomphants en 1945.
Le fameux « power politics » qui domine la théorie classique des RI,
inaugurée par Morgenthau et porté par tellement d'autres, mettait en scène ce
qui était vrai à l'époque, c'est à dire la capacité de la puissance américaine
de nous délivrer du monstre nazi. Aujourd'hui l'enjeu il est tout autre, et
c'est d'ailleurs significatif que deux des plus grands politistes
internationalistes américains, Robert Keohane (Theory Talk #9) et Ned Lebow (TheoryTalk #53), aient écrit
le premier un livre qui s'appelle After hegemony et le second Goodbye
hegemony. Et bien justement, moi ce qui m'intéresse c'est de voir ce qu'il
y a après l'hégémonie.





Une question maintenant pour les étudiants qui aspireraient à se
spécialiser dans le domaine des RI : quels conseils ?



D'abord je leur conseillerais de
débaptiser leur science, comme je le disais tout à l'heure, et de l'appeler
relations intersociales, c'est à dire que l'avenir de ce que nous nous appelons
les Relations Internationales se trouve dans la capacité de comprendre les
interactions extrêmement riches, multiples et diversifiées qui s'opèrent entre
les sociétés du monde. Ce qui ne veut pas dire de complètement abandonner la
piste des Etats, mais replacer les Etats au milieu de cette multiplicité
d'acteurs pour constater souvent l'impuissance de ces États face à ces acteurs
nouveaux. Ce serait mon premier conseil.



Mon deuxième conseil c'est regarder
devant eux et non derrière eux, c'est à dire ne pas se laisser dominer par le
modèle westphalien et essayer de bâtir ce dont nous avons besoin parce que
presque rien n'a été fait encore aujourd'hui pour bâtir ce modèle
post-westphalien, méta-westphalien. Au-delà de la puissance il y a des choses
que l'on identifie encore mal et qui sont le moteur des RI. De ce point de vue-là,
l'aide de la sociologie est particulièrement précieuse car si nous sommes dans
des relations intersociales, évidemment, la sociologie a un rôle très important
à jouer. J'ai considéré, dans ma contribution au The return of the theorists que Durkheim est une source très importante d'inspiration
pour comprendre le monde aujourd'hui. Voilà un auteur à étudier et à appliquer
aux RI.



Le troisième conseil que je leur
donnerais c'est de ne pas oublier qu'effectivement les « RI » ou les
relations intersociales sont les sciences de la souffrance humaine. Il faut
savoir remettre la souffrance au centre de la réflexion. On a trop perdu de
temps à analyser la puissance, il est temps maintenant de se mettre du côté de
la souffrance. Pourquoi ? D'abord parce que éthiquement c'est meilleur,
peut-être pourra-t-on en tirer alors des enseignements pratiques ? Mais aussi
pour une deuxième raison, c'est que dans les nouvelles RI la souffrance est
plus proactive que la puissance, ce qui n'est pas forcément optimiste mais qui
permet notamment de mieux s'interroger sur les formes nouvelles de
conflictualité. Hélas ce n'est plus avec des canons que l'on écrit l'agenda
international, mais c'est avec des larmes. C'est peut-être là qu'il y a un
effort important à consentir sur le plan de la réflexion.





Dans Le temps des humiliés, vous proposez une lecture durkheimienne
des RI dont l'accent est surtout mis sur le « grievance » qui
s'oppose à une autre logique : celle du « greed ». Que pensez-vous de
ce parallèle ?



« Greed » on peut le traduire
par accaparement, captation. En réalité vous avez raison, l'idée de grievance,
de récrimination, le mot est parfait aussi en français, est une idée très
structurante du jeu international. On ne l'a pas vu venir pour deux raisons.
D'abord parce que notre analyse classique des RI supposait une unité de temps,
comme si le temps africain, le temps chinois, le temps indien et le temps
européen étaient identiques. Or ceci est complètement faux parce que nous dans
notre culture européenne nous n'avons pas compris qu'avant Westphalie il y
avait des modèles politiques, des histoires qui avaient profondément marqué les
peuples qui les avaient alors façonnés. Pensez que la Chine c'est 4000 ans
d'empire, pensez que l'Afrique avant la colonisation c'était des royaumes, des
empires, des civilisations, un art, des productions artistiques. Pensez que
l'Inde aussi est multimillénaire. Le temps Westphalien est venu totalement nier
et écraser cette temporalité, cette historicité, presque sur un mode
négationniste, c'est à dire que dans l'esprit de ceux qui étaient porteurs du
modèle Westphalien seul ce modèle associé à la Renaissance et au Siècle des
Lumières et à la Raison avec un grand R avait vocation à formater le monde. Or,
c'était un pari insensé, un pari pour lequel nos ancêtres Européens qui l'ont
mené avaient des excuses parce qu'à l'époque on connaissait mal ces Histoires,
à l'époque on n'avait pas cette connaissance de l'autre et de l'altérité donc
on a réglé ça au plus simple, c'est à dire à partir de la négation de
l'altérité. Or les RI c'est au contraire l'accomplissement de l'altérité. Donc,
inévitablement tous ceux qui se sont vus nier dans leur historicité sur
plusieurs siècles et même plusieurs millénaires ont accumulé un ressentiment de
récrimination, de grievance particulièrement fort.



Le deuxième élément c'est que tout ceci
s'est opéré dans un contexte de déséquilibre des ressources de puissance, lié à
différents facteurs qui faisaient qu'effectivement à un moment donné du temps
les puissances occidentales étaient mieux armées au sens propre, au sens
figuré, que les autres sociétés. Donc cette négation de l'altérité a été
aggravée par l'imposition d'un système multilatéral de force qui s'est traduit
de la pire des façons, c'est à dire à partir d'une hiérarchie proclamée des
cultures, donc voilà il y avait comme disait Jules Ferry, en France au
XIXe siècle, les « races », « Nous avons l'obligation d'éduquer les races inférieures ».
C'est le début d'une Histoire, c'est le début de l'Histoire de l'humiliation et
comme au même moment la mondialisation venait à se faire, cette humiliation est
devenue le nerf de la vie international. Un nerf qui a été utilisé autant par
les puissants, qui en ont fait un instrument, c'est à dire où on va humilier
les autres pour mieux les dominer (guerres de l'Opium,
la colonisation) et en même temps un nerf qui a irrigué la réaction
mobilisatrice de ce monde extra-westphalien qui pour exister a eu besoin de
s'affirmer contre ceux qui les humiliaient. Donc vous voyez c'est vraiment la
trame des nouvelles RI. Dans mon
esprit c'est devenu un paradigme, ça explique tout même si d'autres facteurs
continuent à expliquer parallèlement.



Et pour apprécier cela on a besoin d'une
approche sociologique, ce que pour moi a
deux fonctions. Ces deux fonctions il faut les avoir en tête toutes les
deux pour bien comprendre ce qu'elle veut dire. La première c'est une fonction
intemporelle, c'est à dire considérer que partout et de tout temps le politique
est un produit social, donc ne peut pas être compris hors de la société, ce qui
n'était pas forcément la posture de certains et même de, je dirais, la majorité
des analystes qui croyaient de manière excessive à une autonomie du politique
et de l'Etat. La deuxième composante de cette approche sociologique est une
composante temporelle historique. Ce que je vous disais tout à l'heure : avec
la mondialisation le social a beaucoup progressé en propre par rapport au
politique et les relations intersociales, ayant grandi, on a besoin d'une
approche sociologique pour les comprendre.





Est-ce que vous pensez que « le moment Trump » constitue une
rupture fondamentale avec la conduite des RI ?



Trump en soi peut-être pas, ce qu'il
représente certainement. C'est à dire si on regarde les Etats-Unis on voit,
depuis le changement de millénaire, trois modèles se succéder. Vous avez eu au
lendemain du 11 Septembre un temps néo-conservateur où la mondialisation était
considérée par les dirigeants Américains comme un moyen ou peut-être une chance
d'universaliser le modèle américain de gré ou de force. De force comme ce fut
le cas par exemple en Irak en 2003. Ce modèle a échoué.



Cela a amené un deuxième modèle qui
est, je dirais, un modèle libéral, néo-libéral, incarné par Obama qui tirant
les leçons de l'échec du néo-conservatisme, a eu le courage de remettre en
cause l'hypothèse jugée jusque-là indiscutable d'un leadership américain et
considéré que les Etats-Unis ne pouvaient gagner aujourd'hui qu'à travers le
soft power ou le smart power ou le libre échangisme. C'est la raison pour
laquelle Obama se faisait très peu interventionniste et misait beaucoup sur le
TTIP, sur tous ces accords transrégionaux.



Avec Trump est arrivé un troisième
modèle, que j'appellerais néo-nationaliste, qui considère la mondialisation
mais de façon différente. La mondialisation est ramenée dans son esprit à une
chance donnée de satisfaire les intérêts nationaux américains, l'idée de « national
interest » rejaillit après ce long temps de vision globalisante. Ca ne
veut pas dire qu'on n'est pas interventionniste. Ce qui s'est passé en Syrie le
démontre. Ça veut dire qu'on interviendra non pas en fonction des besoins de la
mondialisation mais en fonction des intérêts des Etats-Unis. Il s'agit de
montrer l'image des Etats-Unis forts, puissants et d'autre part de servir les
intérêts concrets du peuple américain et de la nation américaine.



Ce modèle néo-nationaliste n'est pas
porté par Trump tout seul, c'est la raison pour laquelle je disais qu'il ne
faut pas prendre Trump isolément. On le retrouve exactement de la même manière
chez Poutine. On le retrouve chez quantité d'autres dirigeants du monde, comme
par exemple Erdogan ou Duterte ou Victor Orbán, donc des personnages aussi
différents, ou le Maréchal Sissi en Egypte.



On le retrouve dans des postures : le
Brexit en Grande-Bretagne, ce néo-populisme de droite en Europe : Mme Le Pen,
Mr Wilders, voire un certain néo-populisme de gauche comme Mélenchon en France.
Bref il est dans l'air du temps, c'est presque un effet de mode et il constitue
peut-être une double rupture dans les RI.



D'abord parce que depuis l'avènement de
la mondialisation, les années 70 disons en gros même si la mondialisation n'est
pas née à un jour précis, on avait un peu laissé de côté l'idée d'intérêt
national pour raisonner en termes de biens collectifs. Là c'est un abandon des
biens collectifs et un retour vers l'intérêt national. On le voit bien, l'un
des actes de Trump a été de dire que la COP21 de Paris doit être reconsidérée.
Et puis c'est une certaine forme aussi de réhabilitation de la force, qui
redevient le langage des RI.



Voilà deux bonnes raisons d'abord de
compléter notre science positive pour comprendre cette nouvelle tentation mais
aussi pour s'en inquiéter. Vous savez l'internationaliste ce n'est pas
quelqu'un de neutre, c'est aussi quelqu'un qui doit mettre sa science au
service de l'action et de la définition des politiques publiques. Aller à
l'encontre de l'idée de biens communs, c'est à dire à nouveau jeter un doute
sur l'idée de sécurité humaine, de sécurité environnementale, de sécurité
alimentaire, de sécurité sanitaire c'est extrêmement dangereux car ce n'est
jamais la composition des intérêts et des égoïsmes nationaux qui fera une
politique globalement cohérente. C'est le faible qui en pâtira le premier.



La deuxième raison c'est ce paradoxe à
un moment où l'on voit que la puissance est de plus en plus impuissante, j'ai
fait tout un livre là-dessus, de réhabiliter la force. Or regardez, ne
serait-ce que depuis 1989, où la force a-t-elle triomphé sur le plan des RI ?
Où donc le plus fort a gagné la bataille qui lui a permis de résoudre le problème
à son avantage ou conformément à ses objectifs ? Jamais. Ni en Somalie, ni en
Afghanistan, ni en Irak, ni en Syrie, ni en Palestine. Nulle part. Ni au Sahel,
ni en République Démocratique du Congo. Nulle part. Donc je suis un peu
inquiet, effectivement, de cette réhabilitation naïve et ringarde de la force.





Peut-on considérer que l'idée de la mondialisation, ou plutôt de l'ambition
intégratrice, aurait échoué ? Devrait-on enterrer l'idée d'intégration
régionale ou mondiale ?



Je n'aime pas les enterrements, ce
n'est pas un terme que j'emploierai, mais votre question est très pertinente.
Pendant près de vingt ans j'ai enseigné que l'intégration régionale c'était
l'échelon intermédiaire et réaliste entre le temps des nations et le temps de
la globalisation, c'est à dire j'ai longtemps cru que l'intégration régionale
était l'antichambre d'une gouvernance globale du monde.



J'ai longtemps cru que ce qui n'était
pas possible à l'échelle mondiale, à un gouvernement mondial, pouvait l'être
au  niveau régional et déjà simplifier de
beaucoup la carte du monde et donc de progresser vers cette adhésion au
collectif que commande la mondialisation. Or non seulement l'Europe est en
échec, vous avez raison de le dire, mais toutes les constructions régionales
dans le monde sont en échec. Alors Mr. Trump bouscule ouvertement le NAFTA
ALENA, le MERCOSUR est en panne chaque Etat qui le compose a des récriminations
à son encontre, on pourrait continuer l'énumération… Toutes les formes
d'intégration que Chavez avait mis en place autour de son idéal bolivarien
n'existent plus, l'Afrique ne progresse que très très très lentement en matière
d'intégration régionale : l'Union du Maghreb Arabe, qui est quand même un
dispositif essentiel, a totalement échoué. Donc effectivement la conjoncture
n'est pas bonne.



Pour l'Europe le phénomène est double :
d'une part il y a cet échec très grave du départ de la Grande Bretagne de
l'Europe et puis il y a un malaise général du modèle européen. Alors, le départ
de la Grande Bretagne c'est très grave parce que c'est très rare si vous
regardez l'Histoire contemporaine des RI qu'un Etat claque la porte d'une
organisation régionale ou mondiale. C'est arrivé avec l'Indonésie aux Nations
Unies en 1964, ça n'a duré que 19 mois. C'est arrivé pour le Maroc au sein de
l'Union Africaine et le Maroc est actuellement en voie de réintégration. Donc
ce fait Britannique claque comme un coup de tonnerre, aggravé par le fait que
paradoxalement ce n'est pas tant sur l'idée d'intégration régionale que les
Britanniques ont voté contre l'UE. C'est beaucoup plus dans un réflexe
anti-migratoire, xénophobe, nationaliste (correspondant à cet élan de
nationalisme que je décrivais tout à l'heure) et donc ce qui est dramatique
c'est que l'on voit bien que cet ère du temps nationaliste vient réellement
attaquer les principes même de l'intégration régionale.



Alors je disais que pour l'Europe il y
a des problèmes internes encore plus profonds que la défection Britannique,
j'en vois au moins deux.



D'abord il y a un échec démocratique de
l'Europe, c'est à dire l'Europe n'a pas su faire coïncider les espaces
d'élection et les espaces de décisions, le peuple vote au niveau national et
les décisions se prennent à Bruxelles. Du coup, le contrôle démocratique sur
les décisions est extrêmement faible. Comment résoudre cette équation ? Et là
la panne est complète car personne ne propose de solutions.



L'autre élément à mon avis composant de
cette crise, c'est que l'Europe a été construite avec succès au lendemain de la
Seconde Guerre Mondiale de manière progressive sur le maître mot d'association
et effectivement, Durkheim l'a montré, la logique d'intégration associative
fait sens. C'est à dire l'union fait la force et l'union a fait la force en son
temps en Europe pour empêcher la guerre premièrement, c'est à dire une
troisième guerre européenne au XXe siècle, et deuxièmement pour favoriser la
reconstruction de pays européens dont l'économie s'était totalement effondrée.
Ce temps-là est terminé et la faute de l'Europe c'est de ne pas avoir su se
contextualiser, c'est à dire réagir aux contextes nouveaux.



Rendant à nouveau hommage à Durkheim
qui avait vu juste, Durkheim avait dit il y a deux façons de construire le lien
social : autour de l'association et autour de la solidarité. Je pense que le
temps de l'association est terminé, on doit entrer dans le temps de la
solidarité, c'est à dire la solidarité consiste à dire non pas « Nous
Allemands nous nous associons à la Grèce » mais « Nous Allemands
sommes solidaires de la Grèce car nous savons que si la Grèce s'effondre, à
terme, nous en subirons les conséquences ». Donc cette idée d'unité
fondamentale est une idée qui a été un peu snobée, abandonnée par les Européens
et maintenant ils se trouvent dans une situation de paralysie complète.





Est-ce que la période de décolonisation laisse encore des traces au niveau
des RI contemporaines ?



Ah totalement, totalement. Je dirais
d'abord parce que c'est un événement majeur des RI, qui a quand même fait
passer le monde de 51 Etats Souverains membres des Nations Unies en 1945 à 193
aujourd'hui mais surtout, circonstance très aggravante, c'est que cette
décolonisation a été complètement ratée et que l'échec de la décolonisation
pèse énormément sur les RI.



Elle a été ratée parce que la
décolonisation a conduit à copier le modèle étatique occidental dans les pays
qui accédaient à l'indépendance, alors que ce modèle n'était pas forcément
adapté, ce qui a provoqué une prolifération de failed States, et ces collapsed
States ont eu un effet effroyable sur les RI.



Deuxièmement parce que la
décolonisation aurait dû conduire à un enrichissement et en tous les cas à une
modification substantielle du multilatéralisme en créant de nouvelles
institutions capables de prendre en charge les défis nouveaux issus de la
décolonisation. Or, à part la création de la CNUCED
en 1964 et du PNUD en 1965, il y a eu très peu d'innovations sur le plan de la
gouvernance mondiale. Donc la gouvernance mondiale reste dominée par ce que
j'appelais tout à l'heure le club, c'est à dire les puissances du Nord et ceci
est très dysfonctionnel dans la gestion des crises contemporaines. Puis enfin
parce que les anciennes puissances coloniales sont amenées à trouver des formes
nouvelles de domination qui ont en quelques sorte compliqué le jeu
international. Donc effectivement la décolonisation c'est l'ordinaire des
crises que rencontre le système international aujourd'hui.





Question finale : quel autre souci vous inquiète dans les RI
contemporaines ?



J'ai trouvé que votre questionnement
était très pertinent parce qu'il permettait de toucher aux thèmes que je tiens
pour essentiels. Maintenant, si vous voulez, le grand problème qui moi
m'inquiète c'est le formidable décalage qu'il y a entre les analystes et les
acteurs. Je ne dis pas que les analystes ont tout compris, loin de là, mais je
crois que les analystes sont très conscients de ces transformations. Si vous
prenez les grands auteurs comme James Rosenau, Ned Lebow, comme Robert Keohane,
juste quelques-uns il y en aurait beaucoup d'autres, ils ont tous apporté une
pierre à la reconstruction de l'édifice des RI.



Moi ce qui me frappe, c'est l'autisme
des acteurs politiques, c'est à dire ils se croient encore à l'époque du
Congrès de Vienne et ça c'est source de tension absolument extraordinaire. Donc
tant que ce parfum de changement n'aura pas touché les acteurs politiques,
peut-être que Barack Obama était le premier à commencer à entrer dans ce jeu et
puis la parenthèse s'est refermée, tant donc qu'il n'y aura pas ce mouvement
vers la découverte d'un nouveau monde, peut-être aussi en intégrant dans notre
réflexion sur l'international des partenaires comme la Chine, ce n'est quand
même pas normal que cette Chine si puissante n'ait d'autre choix finalement que
de se rallier au paradigme et au modèle d'action propre à la diplomatie
occidentale, tant qu'on n'aura pas fait cet effort là et bien on sera encore
dans la négation de l'humain, et c'est ça le problème essentiel aujourd'hui,
c'est que nous n'arrivons pas à comprendre qu'au bout de tout ça il y a une
seule unité qui est l'être humain.



J'ai eu la chance de visiter 105 pays
et partout j'ai rencontré les mêmes hommes et les mêmes femmes, avec leurs
souffrances, avec leurs bonheurs, leurs malheurs, leurs joies, leurs peines,
leurs besoins qui étaient partout absolument identiques. Tant qu'on n'aura pas
compris cela, et bien je crois que l'on vivra dans un monde qui est en
contradiction totale avec ce qu'il est vraiment et essentiellement. On vivra dans
un monde d'artifice et donc dans un monde de violence.



Lire plus



·       Lire Badie's Printemps Arabe : un commencement (SER
Études 2011) ici
(pdf)

·       Lire Badie's Pour une sociologie historique de la
négotiation (préface de Négociations
internationales) ici
(pdf)



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