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Building no. 02. The Regiment House has been called by many names. Although small in stature, it has a diverse history. Not only has its use and title changed many times since it was built, it has also misled some local historians into reporting it as being located at different places. Once affectionately known as "The Little Chapel at Fort Brown," it originally stood with its back to the Rio Grande and faced the parade grounds near the present Gateway International Bridge and Customs facilities. Sources noted it had "been moved from its original location to a point near the international bridge." Another account described the chapel as once being located near the Jefferson entrance and used as a school for African-American soldiers. These minor errors that crept into historical record made Building No. 2. an interesting study. There were actually two chapels; each one moved one time and still in use today. The first chapel was originally built to be used as a school and library. In 1889, plans were originally designed for it to be made of wood. However, a hurricane in 1880 may have convinced the Army that a brick building would last longer. Maps showed that building No. 2 was built between 1882 and 1884. It was used as a school until 1907. Between 1907 and 1922 its use is uncertain. From 1922 to 1941 it was used as a Post Chapel, N.C.O. "Bachelors'" Quarters, Officers' Guests Quarters, Post Office and N.C.O. Quarters, and the Chaplain's office prior to October 1941 as will be explained later. Earliest Post Engineer's records show that a single 20' x 30' ft. bedroom and 16' x 18' living room comprised the floor space with an open porch. At that time it listed a capacity for 50 persons. "The larger room was the chapel's auditorium, while the smaller room was its vestry." Later records show the building was divided with a hall to make three bedrooms and small kitchen to house a single family by 1938. It was also painted at one time. By then, the. porch was screened. In 1951, the Little Chapel at Fort Brown was remembered at the time for being a "popular place for weddings of soldiers and local girls" when it was transferred by the city of Brownsville as a museum to the Brownsville Historical Association. The BHA restored the building and opened it in 1952. The BHA was organized in 1946 and granted a charter by the state of Texas in 1947. They were granted use of the Chapel as a museum for 50 years. However, by 1958, the Stillman house at 1305 E. Washington Street was purchased by Chauncey Stillman, a great-grandson of Charles Stillman, and donated to the BHA as their permanent home. When businessmen in downtown Brownsville heard about this, they petitioned to oppose the BHA relocating there under the charge that "a museum would stifle the growth of the immediate area." The BHA restored the home and moved in by 1960. Now with the expanded Brownsville Heritage Complex, the BHA continues to organize a wide range of activities to promote local history and preserve historical records. From 1960 to 1991, Building No. 2 was used as an office for the General Services Administration (GSA) and a tool and maintenance building. Little maintenance had been done on the building and after thirty years of neglect, the building had seen better days. In 1992 when expansion of the U.S. Customs facility would require that it be removed, the "Little Chapel" was suddenly in need of a few small miracles. Mark Lund, Director of City Planning, (Heritage Officer for Brownsville at the time) had first hand experience from the initial dismantling, storage, and restoration of Building No. 2. He stated that the city had a contract with the GSA to remove (demolish) the building. When the Texas State Historical Commission became involved, the "Planning staff and Heritage Council persuaded the City Commission to intervene such that the building's demolition (disassembly) was done carefully to allow it at a future date to be possibly reassembled." The GSA was anxious to remove Building No. 2 because it delayed construction by standing in the way of a road that had to be widened for trucks to make a sharp turn from the bridge for inspection. Once the Historical Commission was satisfied assessment requirements were met, the process to demolish was approved. When the city was contracted by the GSA to demolish Building No. 2, Mr. Lund involved the Heritage Council and Planning Director Joe Galvan, who spoke with Butch Barbosa of the City Commission, to find what could be done to save the little building. Bricks were not numbered as previously believed. Instead, temporary workers were hired and instructed to carefully remove the bricks and place them on pallets to be stored for future use. The City Manager, Kirby Lellijedahl, sent Parks Department trucks to transport brick and wooden pieces, which were labeled and protected by tarps. There was no funding to immediately relocate the building. One ideal plan was to situate the building near the entrance at the Fort Brown Memorial Golf Course as a visitor's center. Until Building No. 2's fate would be known, components would be temporarily stored in Brownsville Compress warehouses free of rent for several months by compress owners. After several months, the city was asked to begin paying rent. Since the building was eligible to receive funds from the Community Development Block Grant – Community Development Funds (CBDG), approximately $1,200 was used to keep the parts in storage until it could be decided where it would be rebuilt. Around this time Los Caminos Del Rio was producing a film to highlight significant architectural buildings along both sides of the Rio Grande Valley to be aired by the Public Broadcasting System (PBS). The Dallas-based philanthropic Meadows Foundation supported this production and representatives were visiting Brownsville. After learning about Building No. 2, they advised the City to write a formal grant proposal. Once funding by the Meadows Foundation was assured, TSC got involved with the Texas Historical Commission and the City Planning Department in planning a new site for the building on the historical campus. TSC officials must have considered Building 2 as an inherent part of the historical assemblage of fort buildings and that it would be turned over to them, even though it had fallen under ownership of the GSA and later, transferred to the City. The project was entitled "Building Number Two" by the City and an Inter-Local Agreement was signed between the City and TSC under which the City would pay all costs once a $50,000 grant was secured by the Meadows Foundation. Construction was to be supervised by Heritage Officer Mark Lund and progress of the work would be reported to Michael Putegnat, TSC Executive Director. Once the job was completed, the City would "turn over title and control to TSC. Costs involved for TSC would be time and landscaping." Bricks were delivered near the parking lot on the site it would be rebuilt. This pile caused rainwater to flood the parking lot and Michael Putegnat, was pressured to correct this situation. For a short while, stagnant water became known as "Putegnat's Pond." Bricks had to be reset aside to allow for proper drainage. During reconstruction, the contractor became dissatisfied with the amount of his reimbursement when the small building proved to be a bigger challenge than he anticipated. He had stored some of the wooden pieces from the Brownsville Compress in his garage and held up construction. Mark Lund was faced with two problems: One was to hire a new contractor to complete the half-finished project with the amount of funds that were left over (most contractors would not want to bid on a halffinished job) and the second was to get the wooden pieces back. Lund had the police called in as a precautionary measure to ensure parts would be delivered. The Parks Department was used again to deliver wooden parts to the second contractor, Carroll Adams, who saw the project to the end. (His nephew, Jearel Adams, worked on the Cavalry building). Some wooden pieces had become damaged from being taken apart, stepped on, or exposed to moisture. Carroll Adams, having worked on historic building restoration jobs before and seeing Mark had been scraping pieces of interior wood trim so that they may be used again, took it upon himself to purchase wood pieces with his money to see the job be done correctly. Another obstacle to rebuilding was met below the ground on which Building No. 2 now stands. Because of its heavy 12" brick walls, a continuous concrete brick foundation had to be placed below the ground. Utility pipes obstructed digging and created problems for re-builders: Boxed openings were made in the reinforced concrete foundation. Steel pieces were placed on the top of the openings after the concrete cured. This was done to handle the loads of substantial masonry walls. The City sidewalk crew (under the direction of Santana Vallejo) built this concrete foundation. They did very well in dealing with the challenges presented by the existing utilities. The foundation design was done by the City Engineer, P. J. Garcia, P. E. The private contractor was hired to do the subsequent work… after the foundation was completed. Mark Lund also had the odious task of placing insulation from the crawl space beneath the floor of Building No. 2. Work was completed by 1993 and it now sits near the Art Annex Building No. 89. Most peculiar about this building is that there is no historical subject marker on the Little Chapel for visitors to inform them where the building was once located, what it was used for, and to memorialize the people who all worked together to save it. A second Post Chapel (Building No. 62) once stood in the area between Tandy Hall and the Lightner Student Center, next to the Post Theater. This chapel was the actual "Regimental" chapel. It had a larger capacity to hold services for a larger number of men. The large wood-frame structure with a steeple was built in 1941 and had a 350 person capacity. It measured 81'-3" long and 37' wide. The Quartermaster record lists it as a "temporary" building and classify it as a "Regimental Chapel" on the floor plan. It was dedicated on Sunday, October 26, 1941. There was a movable altar for Jewish, Catholic, or Protestant services. Before that, services were held in the service club near Building No. 2. Chaplain Stephan K. Callahan moved his office from Building No. 2 into the new chapel the following Monday. In 1947, the two chapels and other buildings at Fort Brown were declared surplus property by the War Assets Administration (WAA). An appeal was made to the WAA to secure Building No. 2 (The Little Chapel) as a museum for the BHA that had just had its first annual meeting at the Brownsville Chamber of Commerce after being chartered by the State of Texas. Immaculate Conception Church bought Building No. 62 for the St. Joseph Church on the corner of Sixth and 555 W. St. Francis. Luke Waters of Harlingen took the job of moving the building from the fort to its new site. For a job that would have normally lasted a few days or couple of weeks at the most, it actually took nearly five months. It was a burden Mr. Waters carried to the end. Waters began the task in October of 1947. To move it presented a problem because streets were only 30 feet wide. Weighing 150,000 pounds, it was moved by heavy trucks. Telephone cables were either lowered or raised to make way for the chapel. Electric lines were also cut. This upset some people who found themselves temporarily without electricity. The weather caused the greatest problems. Whenever it rained, the job would be halted, as the earth was too soft to move over without getting the load stuck in the mud, which it did at various points. The "front end" was pulled out of one of Water's trucks. Two winch trucks were damaged and cable lines broke several times. Mr. Waters also broke his arm in a fall on January 2nd. Asked if he remembered the exact route that was followed in moving, his reply was "I certainly do. I'll never forget it." After leaving Fort Brown, the building proceeded on Jefferson to East Ninth, turned north to Madison, west on Madison to Seventh, north on Seventh to Van Buren, west on Van Buren across the Southern Pacific railroad tracks to Ninth, south on Ninth to Jackson, west on Jackson between the Resaca and City Cemetery, across Palm Blvd. to West First, south across vacant lots to Jefferson, west on Jefferson to W. Seventh, south to Elizabeth, east to half-way between W. Fourth and Fifth, west again to Seventh, south on Seventh to St. Francis, and finally to its destination at W. Sixth and St. Francis. For the "wandering church" to reach its destination, brush had to be cleared on some vacant lots to move it. It finally reached its destination on February 17, 1948. Father Chateau officiated services and Father Casey was appointed first pastor in 1953. It remained a parish until 1962 when a new church was built across the street. Research material showed that historian A. A. Champion and his wife, Isabel, were members of this church. The church has been covered in brick with an addition on its west side and the steeple has been removed. It now serves as a youth center for the church. ; https://scholarworks.utrgv.edu/ftbrown/1511/thumbnail.jpg

Building no. 62. Constructed in 1941-10-10. O.q.m.g. plan no. 7033-787-1; Regiment chapel. The Regiment House has been called by many names. Although small in stature, it has a diverse history. Not only has its use and title changed many times since it was built, it has also misled some local historians into reporting it as being located at different places. Once affectionately known as "The Little Chapel at Fort Brown," it originally stood with its back to the Rio Grande and faced the parade grounds near the present Gateway International Bridge and Customs facilities. Sources noted it had "been moved from its original location to a point near the international bridge." Another account described the chapel as once being located near the Jefferson entrance and used as a school for African-American soldiers. These minor errors that crept into historical record made Building No. 2. an interesting study. There were actually two chapels; each one moved one time and still in use today. The first chapel was originally built to be used as a school and library. In 1889, plans were originally designed for it to be made of wood. However, a hurricane in 1880 may have convinced the Army that a brick building would last longer. Maps showed that building No. 2 was built between 1882 and 1884. It was used as a school until 1907. Between 1907 and 1922 its use is uncertain. From 1922 to 1941 it was used as a Post Chapel, N.C.O. "Bachelors'" Quarters, Officers' Guests Quarters, Post Office and N.C.O. Quarters, and the Chaplain's office prior to October 1941 as will be explained later. Earliest Post Engineer's records show that a single 20' x 30' ft. bedroom and 16' x 18' living room comprised the floor space with an open porch. At that time it listed a capacity for 50 persons. "The larger room was the chapel's auditorium, while the smaller room was its vestry." Later records show the building was divided with a hall to make three bedrooms and small kitchen to house a single family by 1938. It was also painted at one time. By then, the. porch was screened. In 1951, the Little Chapel at Fort Brown was remembered at the time for being a "popular place for weddings of soldiers and local girls" when it was transferred by the city of Brownsville as a museum to the Brownsville Historical Association. The BHA restored the building and opened it in 1952. The BHA was organized in 1946 and granted a charter by the state of Texas in 1947. They were granted use of the Chapel as a museum for 50 years. However, by 1958, the Stillman house at 1305 E. Washington Street was purchased by Chauncey Stillman, a great-grandson of Charles Stillman, and donated to the BHA as their permanent home. When businessmen in downtown Brownsville heard about this, they petitioned to oppose the BHA relocating there under the charge that "a museum would stifle the growth of the immediate area." The BHA restored the home and moved in by 1960. Now with the expanded Brownsville Heritage Complex, the BHA continues to organize a wide range of activities to promote local history and preserve historical records. From 1960 to 1991, Building No. 2 was used as an office for the General Services Administration (GSA) and a tool and maintenance building. Little maintenance had been done on the building and after thirty years of neglect, the building had seen better days. In 1992 when expansion of the U.S. Customs facility would require that it be removed, the "Little Chapel" was suddenly in need of a few small miracles. Mark Lund, Director of City Planning, (Heritage Officer for Brownsville at the time) had first hand experience from the initial dismantling, storage, and restoration of Building No. 2. He stated that the city had a contract with the GSA to remove (demolish) the building. When the Texas State Historical Commission became involved, the "Planning staff and Heritage Council persuaded the City Commission to intervene such that the building's demolition (disassembly) was done carefully to allow it at a future date to be possibly reassembled." The GSA was anxious to remove Building No. 2 because it delayed construction by standing in the way of a road that had to be widened for trucks to make a sharp turn from the bridge for inspection. Once the Historical Commission was satisfied assessment requirements were met, the process to demolish was approved. When the city was contracted by the GSA to demolish Building No. 2, Mr. Lund involved the Heritage Council and Planning Director Joe Galvan, who spoke with Butch Barbosa of the City Commission, to find what could be done to save the little building. Bricks were not numbered as previously believed. Instead, temporary workers were hired and instructed to carefully remove the bricks and place them on pallets to be stored for future use. The City Manager, Kirby Lellijedahl, sent Parks Department trucks to transport brick and wooden pieces, which were labeled and protected by tarps. There was no funding to immediately relocate the building. One ideal plan was to situate the building near the entrance at the Fort Brown Memorial Golf Course as a visitor's center. Until Building No. 2's fate would be known, components would be temporarily stored in Brownsville Compress warehouses free of rent for several months by compress owners. After several months, the city was asked to begin paying rent. Since the building was eligible to receive funds from the Community Development Block Grant – Community Development Funds (CBDG), approximately $1,200 was used to keep the parts in storage until it could be decided where it would be rebuilt. Around this time Los Caminos Del Rio was producing a film to highlight significant architectural buildings along both sides of the Rio Grande Valley to be aired by the Public Broadcasting System (PBS). The Dallas-based philanthropic Meadows Foundation supported this production and representatives were visiting Brownsville. After learning about Building No. 2, they advised the City to write a formal grant proposal. Once funding by the Meadows Foundation was assured, TSC got involved with the Texas Historical Commission and the City Planning Department in planning a new site for the building on the historical campus. TSC officials must have considered Building 2 as an inherent part of the historical assemblage of fort buildings and that it would be turned over to them, even though it had fallen under ownership of the GSA and later, transferred to the City. The project was entitled "Building Number Two" by the City and an Inter-Local Agreement was signed between the City and TSC under which the City would pay all costs once a $50,000 grant was secured by the Meadows Foundation. Construction was to be supervised by Heritage Officer Mark Lund and progress of the work would be reported to Michael Putegnat, TSC Executive Director. Once the job was completed, the City would "turn over title and control to TSC. Costs involved for TSC would be time and landscaping." Bricks were delivered near the parking lot on the site it would be rebuilt. This pile caused rainwater to flood the parking lot and Michael Putegnat, was pressured to correct this situation. For a short while, stagnant water became known as "Putegnat's Pond." Bricks had to be reset aside to allow for proper drainage. During reconstruction, the contractor became dissatisfied with the amount of his reimbursement when the small building proved to be a bigger challenge than he anticipated. He had stored some of the wooden pieces from the Brownsville Compress in his garage and held up construction. Mark Lund was faced with two problems: One was to hire a new contractor to complete the half-finished project with the amount of funds that were left over (most contractors would not want to bid on a halffinished job) and the second was to get the wooden pieces back. Lund had the police called in as a precautionary measure to ensure parts would be delivered. The Parks Department was used again to deliver wooden parts to the second contractor, Carroll Adams, who saw the project to the end. (His nephew, Jearel Adams, worked on the Cavalry building). Some wooden pieces had become damaged from being taken apart, stepped on, or exposed to moisture. Carroll Adams, having worked on historic building restoration jobs before and seeing Mark had been scraping pieces of interior wood trim so that they may be used again, took it upon himself to purchase wood pieces with his money to see the job be done correctly. Another obstacle to rebuilding was met below the ground on which Building No. 2 now stands. Because of its heavy 12" brick walls, a continuous concrete brick foundation had to be placed below the ground. Utility pipes obstructed digging and created problems for re-builders: Boxed openings were made in the reinforced concrete foundation. Steel pieces were placed on the top of the openings after the concrete cured. This was done to handle the loads of substantial masonry walls. The City sidewalk crew (under the direction of Santana Vallejo) built this concrete foundation. They did very well in dealing with the challenges presented by the existing utilities. The foundation design was done by the City Engineer, P. J. Garcia, P. E. The private contractor was hired to do the subsequent work… after the foundation was completed. Mark Lund also had the odious task of placing insulation from the crawl space beneath the floor of Building No. 2. Work was completed by 1993 and it now sits near the Art Annex Building No. 89. Most peculiar about this building is that there is no historical subject marker on the Little Chapel for visitors to inform them where the building was once located, what it was used for, and to memorialize the people who all worked together to save it. A second Post Chapel (Building No. 62) once stood in the area between Tandy Hall and the Lightner Student Center, next to the Post Theater. This chapel was the actual "Regimental" chapel. It had a larger capacity to hold services for a larger number of men. The large wood-frame structure with a steeple was built in 1941 and had a 350 person capacity. It measured 81'-3" long and 37' wide. The Quartermaster record lists it as a "temporary" building and classify it as a "Regimental Chapel" on the floor plan. It was dedicated on Sunday, October 26, 1941. There was a movable altar for Jewish, Catholic, or Protestant services. Before that, services were held in the service club near Building No. 2. Chaplain Stephan K. Callahan moved his office from Building No. 2 into the new chapel the following Monday. In 1947, the two chapels and other buildings at Fort Brown were declared surplus property by the War Assets Administration (WAA). An appeal was made to the WAA to secure Building No. 2 (The Little Chapel) as a museum for the BHA that had just had its first annual meeting at the Brownsville Chamber of Commerce after being chartered by the State of Texas. Immaculate Conception Church bought Building No. 62 for the St. Joseph Church on the corner of Sixth and 555 W. St. Francis. Luke Waters of Harlingen took the job of moving the building from the fort to its new site. For a job that would have normally lasted a few days or couple of weeks at the most, it actually took nearly five months. It was a burden Mr. Waters carried to the end. Waters began the task in October of 1947. To move it presented a problem because streets were only 30 feet wide. Weighing 150,000 pounds, it was moved by heavy trucks. Telephone cables were either lowered or raised to make way for the chapel. Electric lines were also cut. This upset some people who found themselves temporarily without electricity. The weather caused the greatest problems. Whenever it rained, the job would be halted, as the earth was too soft to move over without getting the load stuck in the mud, which it did at various points. The "front end" was pulled out of one of Water's trucks. Two winch trucks were damaged and cable lines broke several times. Mr. Waters also broke his arm in a fall on January 2nd. Asked if he remembered the exact route that was followed in moving, his reply was "I certainly do. I'll never forget it." After leaving Fort Brown, the building proceeded on Jefferson to East Ninth, turned north to Madison, west on Madison to Seventh, north on Seventh to Van Buren, west on Van Buren across the Southern Pacific railroad tracks to Ninth, south on Ninth to Jackson, west on Jackson between the Resaca and City Cemetery, across Palm Blvd. to West First, south across vacant lots to Jefferson, west on Jefferson to W. Seventh, south to Elizabeth, east to half-way between W. Fourth and Fifth, west again to Seventh, south on Seventh to St. Francis, and finally to its destination at W. Sixth and St. Francis. For the "wandering church" to reach its destination, brush had to be cleared on some vacant lots to move it. It finally reached its destination on February 17, 1948. Father Chateau officiated services and Father Casey was appointed first pastor in 1953. It remained a parish until 1962 when a new church was built across the street. Research material showed that historian A. A. Champion and his wife, Isabel, were members of this church. The church has been covered in brick with an addition on its west side and the steeple has been removed. It now serves as a youth center for the church. ; https://scholarworks.utrgv.edu/ftbrown/1388/thumbnail.jpg

Throughout 2023,I kept being sarcastic about being post-pandemic, knowing that COVID was still a major problem, even as we stopped acting as if it was.  And then, of course, I got it the last week of the year.  The year started with COVID--my wife and her family got it when she went down to help her mother when she was hospitalized--as well, so it was a strange year of acting like it was not a thing while it was very much a thing.  Since I am not going to be productive today due to my current bout, I thought I would post about the year so that I could remember now and down the road the non-covid-y parts to the year. I can't help but start with the longest stretch of single-dom since college.  Mrs. Spew first went to help her hospitalized mother, but that became a three month or so effort to get my MIL moved out of a four floor townhouse and into a senior apartments facility.  What did I do as a single dude for three months?  Mostly plot and scheme about the kitchen renovation.  While Mrs. Spew was back for the demolition and renovation, all of the decisions were made while she was away.  I did consult via texted pics of counter tops and the like, but as she put it, since I do most of the cooking, it was up to me for most of it.  And it worked out great.  I had two great ski trips to Banff, one with a friend's family and an anniversary trip sans my wife.  Instead, my sister and my daughter joined me.  The most notable part of the first trip was that I did a face plant on a relatively flat part of Lake Louise, proving that my new goggles are tough and leading to my first visit to the Ski Patrol hut for a bandaid. It was the first time I skied with my daughter in quite some time.  I had skied with my sister the previous year as she was re-learning the sport.  In 2023, she was much improved and kept up with me nicely.  The Minister of National Defence, Anita Anand, once again visited my Civ-Mil class by zoom.  This was the second, and, alas, last time, she did that as she got shuffled to a different ministry over the summer.  Last year, it was a last minute thing. This year, I had the chance to prompt the students to ask civ-mil questions as opposed to just big IR questions, and it went really well.     A highlight of the year was going to Florida for my cousin's daughter's Bar Mitzvah.  One of the patterns of the year was bad chair dancing--the guys holding up the various victims here and at other events tended to tilt the chairs forward.  They did better with Samantha than with her sister.  We got to spend the next day at my cousin's house, including their gator-proximate pool.  I hadn't had a chance to play with all four of my cousins' kids at the same time in quite a while, and it was my first time using my old kid-pool skills in sometime.  It was probably appropriate that it was in Florida since 2023 was the 40th anniversary of my family living in Miami--just for one year, but I spent a lot of that year in the pool we had.Speaking of blasts from the past, I went to my first rock concert in ... decades?  Journey came to Ottawa, and since their music was a big part of my teen soundtrack, I got a ticket and went.  No Steve Perry although his replacement sounded good and had lots of energy.  But still a good show. It reminded me why I don't go to concerts--I just don't find watching people make music all that interesting.  I have always enjoyed going to conferences, and this year's ISA was far more normal than last year's.  The previous year was underattended and held in a strange resort in Nashville. 2023's was held in Montreal, a very familiar locale, and most of the folks I like to see at these things were there.  Two highlights were the Presidential speech and an award panel.  I always blow off the Presidential speech except when the President is a friend.  Debbi Avant, who started at UCSD a few years before me, has always impressed me with her sharp insights about international relations, and her speech was Debbi at her finest. The other highlight, also UCSD related, was the lifetime achievement panel for Miles Kahler, my supervisor way back when.  He bristled at the attention a bit about all of this fuss, but it was great to see so much appreciation for his work and for his Miles-ness.  He is retiring... for the second time and I think this one will stick.  So, it was great to see him get all of the love and appreciation.  As I get closer to retirement myself, with two of my friends retiring this year (mine is still about eight years away), I am more committed to telling people how much they have meant to me.  Losing a few friends during the pandemic also is compelling me to make clear to folks how much I appreciate them.  There are few people in this business who supported me and shaped my views than these two, so it was great to see them both celebrated.I joke often about the military-industrial-academic complex, and this year, I got to experience it pretty directly.  Well, the first two parts--there were not many academics nor anything academic going on at CANSEC--the annual show for defence contractors.  The big surprise was not so much how much room the biggest contractors took up but the range of stuff being presented there--from artillery and ammo to drones to uniforms to cables to medical stuff and on and on.  Note in this pic that the firm was promoting gear for pregnant soldiers. I have rarely gone to the graduation ceremonies, but with one of my PhDs graduating and having finally purchased a spiffy cap and gown, it was time to go.  Marshall finished his dissertation in record time, and he didn't cut any corners along the way--it was an award-winning project.  Of all the students I supervised, his work required the fewest comments, so much so that I felt guilty.  I am just glad I don't have the action shot of me messing up his hooding since he is so very tall.    June was also a month of much travel.  First, a DND-organized trip to Riga to chat with NATO folks, Canada's contingent, the Latvian defence folks, and the Strategic Communications conference.  I learned a lot, had a fair amount of excellent beer, and even hung out with the kids from the NATO Field School--an effort run by CDSN Co-Director Alex Moens to teach undergrads and newly graduated folks about NATO.  It was my second time to Riga and my second time to the base where the Canadians are operating.  Going with this group meant more high level briefings, more sharp questions asked by my colleagues that I would not have thought to ask, and, yeah, more beer.The highlight of the year was the delayed anniversary trip with my wife to Spain.  I had a conference in Barcelona, so we flew into Madrid and then drove throughout hot southern Spain: Toledo, Cordoba, Seville, Granada, and Ronda.  My fave was Toledo despite the scariest extended driving experience of my life--the old city streets were so very narrow the proximity alarms in my rental car were going off--all of them.  Along the way, we learned a lot of history, saw some amazing art and architecture, ate really well, and had a lot of sangria.Did I mention it was hot?  Cordoba was probably our second favorite place although Granada was also pretty amazing.  And Ronda had the best tapas in a random bar.  Oh, and Barcelona is just terrific.Great view of Alhambra in Granada with excellent food. Ronda has a bridge over a beautiful gorge.  It also has an historic bullring. Seville was also pretty terrific.  Just an amazing trip.The summer family vacation was once again in Philly since my mother can't travel much.  We found new and old things to do.  I had not realized my older sister is so sharp at scrabble--a shark!  I dominated the axe throwing until the final throws, where Mrs. Spew took the crown!         My sabbatical started in July, and Dave and Phil and I managed to finish our book and submit it in the fall.  Glossy picture of book cover?  Not yet.  Still need to get the reviews and past the editorial board.  As Tom Petty said, the waiting is the hardest part.  Actually, in this case, the writing was the hardest part.The fall was also marked by something I had never experienced before: being the subject of an op-ed. I had written more than a few, but to have someone else dedicate an entire piece to moi?  Oh my.  The background is: in the fall of 2022, a retired general, Michel Maisonneuve was given an award by a veteran's association and used that speech to blast pretty much everyone.  I blogged about it since I found it to be very problematic.  When I heard that he was going to appear at the Conservative Party convention, I wrote an op-ed arguing that this was a dangerous politicization of the Canadian military.  Maisonneuve responded by targeting me, a dual citizen, gasp, in his op-ed.  It was all very strange to be on the other side of an op-ed, especially one filled with ad hominens and straw men.  But I guess this means I am an influencer?The APSA was strange due to a hotel strike, but I had to go as LA is where my daughter lives.  So, I had a good time conferencing and a better time hanging out with her.  The poker game was a bit different as we used a big table in the lobby (my room was way too small).  We were not as rowdy as the table nearby, so it was all good.  I also drove with Mrs. Spew on Mulholland Drive for as far as we could--got lots of great looks at LA and the valley. Jon cleaned up better than I did.Yet more travel as I went to DC with Mrs. Spew for a civ-mil conference and ... the 100th anniversary of the summer camp that was so important to me growing up.  The conference was terrific--I hadn't been to this specific one before--the Inter-university Seminar on Armed Forces and Society.   Definitely going back since it is chock full of smart, sweet folks working on fascinating stuff.  The anniversary gala happened to be the same weekend so I drove up to Baltimore and had a blast seeing old friends and meeting other folks who had similar experiences out in the hinterlands of Maryland.I should note that we had a great CDSN year--each of our events went really well, and we feel we are making a difference. I am so grateful for the team that does all of the heavy lifting.  And at one event, they let us use the patio!  The people, the location, the season all make this one quite special.  The Meeting of the MINDS event, where we brought together the nine networks funded by DND plus DND's Policy group, was a terrific opportunity to learn what the other networks are doing, what has been working for them, and also what DND wants from us. Our Year Ahead event addressed timely issues: how to respond to China's aggression, what the 2024 US election campaign will do to incite extremism, evacuations from conflict zones, and taking a look at the Balkans.  And it was in a funky new location for us.  It even had a slide!The aforementioned conference in DC kicked off a series of trips that is not going to stop until May of 2024.  I went to Seoul to research their civ-mil for the next book--what role do defence agencies think they have?  I learned a lot in those two weeks--still trying to figure that case out--and had a good time seeing more of Korea, including Busan.  Busan had the most beautifully located temple as well as the memorial for UN troops who died in the Korean war.I went directly from Seoul to Copenhagen for a different civ-mil conference.  I had been there a couple of times before, but hadn't seen their war museum, their art museum or their Christmas markets.  The latter showed me that Zurich's smelly gluhwein is not representative of mulled wine, so I had some of that and then made some over winterfest.   Those trips then lead to a quick trip to Toronto for a workshop and then Thanskgiving with the Saideman folks.  Much food was made and consumed.  The highlight of this week was Milo, my niece's dog.  Super sweet.  Oh and seeing my daughter.Since my sister had crashed my anniversary ski trip, I felt it was only fair to crash her ski clinic at Alta.  I had been there about 22 years ago on a Saideman family vacation (my segment, from Lubbock, arrived a day or two late thanks to snow removal challenges in Texas).  I am a much better skier now thanks to all the skiing near Montreal and now my habit of hitting the Canadian rockies on a regular basis.  So, it was fun to see how much more of the place I could do with confidence. The skies each day were so clear and blue.  Just amazing views at all times.  I came home from Alta to deliver cookies near and far.  Each year, I make more (the new kitchen definitely helped), and each year, more people join my nice list.  So, I spent two days driving around Ottawa seeing folks and giving bits of sweet joy.  This started in the first winter of the pandemic when this was the first chance to interact with people in person since the start of the quarantine.  It is a great way to end the year--eating sweets and sharing them.  And meeting a few dogs along the way.We ended the year as usual--in the greater DC area--to celebrate winterfest with my wife's family.  Since my mother-in-law no longer has a townhouse, we had to rent an airbnb near her retirement facility. Which meant we hosted the festivities--first time our family had anything to do with a tree in a couple of decades.  I have been making the big dinner for the past few years, so that was not so different.  It was great to see these folks--twice this year for me as I saw most of them in October when I was in the area for the IUS conference.  A drink mydaughter gotmy spectacular sister-in-law LizI hope you had a great 2023, and you have a happy new year.  I will be on the road for most of the first half of the year, so many more pics of fun places and good food.  Oh, and some research.

Tese de Doutoramento em Urbanismo com a especialização em Urbanismo apresentada na Faculdade de Arquitetura da Universidade de Lisboa para obtenção do grau de Doutor. ; Premissa Em Arquitectura, o desenvolvimento, a confirmação ou a negação de alguns paradigmas culturais e teóricos deve ser antecedido pelo mesmo processo em relação ao mais básico e prioritário dos objetos em questão, ou seja, o veículo das mesmas conjeturas, o produto de estes três anos de formação de terceiro ciclo: a tese de doutoramento. Esta é precisamente uma pesquisa, uma investigação de carácter experimental, original e inédita, confrontada meticulosamente com capacidades e técnicas capazes de controlar o seu processo. Não constitui uma prática de deificação de verdade dogmática, não tem validade universal, não revela a soma absoluta do saber. Pelo contrário, quer gostemos quer não, a investigação, como atividade, é de natureza duplamente parcial: epistemológica e temporal. Por sua vez, derivado de visões anteriores e baseado em inúmeros estudos, é um segmento do saber com uma certa legitimidade, transmissível entre pensadores e operadores da comunidade científica. Ao mesmo tempo, não tem validade cronológica ilimitada e não constitui uma meta invejada, mas sim um ponto de partida para futuras pesquisas académicas, próprias e de outrem, para um avanço disciplinar contínuo. É também importante precisar que o objeto de estudo não é produto de um capricho, e a investigação que dele resulta não constitui um exercício ocioso. Persiste, no entanto, a convicção de que é necessário que sejamos comedidos, mantendo-nos o mais possível dentro do nosso campo disciplinar específico, agora cada vez mais adulterado por desvios e fascinações sócio-antropológicas, com as condições da contemporaneidade na esfera de um realismo saudável. Objeto da pesquisa O objeto desta pesquisa é, portanto, aquela paisagem moderna dos segmentos costeiros do sul da Europa feita de geografia e de objets trouves, formas e materiais comuns, arquiteturas ainda "não acreditadas", resultantes de práticas não muito claras – traços de cidades informais litorais, produtos de auto-construção, ilegalidades, e ambiguidade normativa – que têm normalmente origem, necessidade, sentido e uso autónomos, relativamente a eventuais leituras formais e convencionais, mas que podem interessar bastante a quem se ocupa do território contemporâneo antrópico. Quer se queira quer não, estes manufatos, pela presença cénica por vezes tão imponente e violenta, outras vezes insignificante e camuflada, representam uma quota consistente da paisagem contemporânea e das ocasiões profissionais de nós arquitetos, cada vez mais forçados a manipular, com o olhar e com as nossas obras, a transformar e a corrigir este tipo de situações complexas, em vez de enriquecer os nossos territórios com nova edificação. Só os edifícios abusivos em Itália chegam aos 17%, enquanto que a percentagem aumenta entre os 30% e os 40% se considerarmos as construções que persistem ao longo da costa; a vizinha Grécia evidencia práticas semelhantes; se considerarmos também os edifícios autorizados do ponto de vista normativo, mas nunca 'dirigidos' a quem os observa, é óbvio que falamos pelo menos de metade daquilo que há anos temos constantemente debaixo dos olhos. Um fenómeno de quantidades e dimensões tais que é legítimo, por um lado, reconhecer que o atual sistema positivista normativo é, resumidamente, bastante ineficaz, e, por outro, falar de situações inadiáveis, e não de dissertação teorética gratuita. Talvez tenhamos realmente passado um ponto sem retorno. É possível conjeturar a demolição de quilómetros e quilómetros de construção ao longo da costa? Como reutilizar e armazenar os milhares de restos de metros cúbicos de materiais de construção civil não recicláveis? É economicamente sustentável? É dialeticamente correto? É culturalmente sincrónico? Cada empreendimento demiúrgico, adequado a reimplantar uma hipotética idade de ouro ou o sublimado "ponto zero" do estado natural das coisas, arrisca a parecer mais arrogante e insensato – mesmo que não seja considerado assim pelo senso comum – que uma humilde e realista tentativa de reconhecer certas formas que adornam o território honestamente rejeitado na consciência da autonomia disciplinar e dos limites – dentro dos quais a nossa investigação pode definir-se, de um certo modo, como científica – das nossas competências de estudiosos de arquitetura, que não se confundem com as nossas aspirações vagas de cidadãos e utentes sociais. Trata-se, na verdade, de abandonar por um momento os impulsos políticos e sociológicos e a prática da "reportagem da degradação" – muito em voga hoje – para se limitar, e não se trata de limites, pelo contrário, a investigar, na qualidade de arquiteto, a forma, e compreender até que ponto, objetos e linguagem, não considerados áulicos e sem acreditação, possam constituir, pelo contrário, materiais de construção de interesse. Exatamente como outros, não só no campo arquitetónico, têm repetidamente tentado, ao longo da história, uma cultura nova de partilha. O significado de acreditação A tese de doutoramento entende, portanto, propor uma leitura da paisagem contemporânea, olhando a dinâmica da acreditação como o principal instrumento de reavaliação de alguns objetos e segmentos costeiros da nossa área geográfico-cultural, a fim de enfrentar mais adequadamente a complexidade da gestão de território. A pesquisa explora, portanto, algumas técnicas compositivas para a acreditação, ou seja, contextualiza o objeto, ou o conjunto de objetos, em novos e variados possíveis sistemas de relações funcionais da construção da paisagem, do espaço coletivo, da forma e da contemporaneidade. A acreditação de um objeto está ligada a características intrínsecas e extrínsecas ao mesmo. Esta reside seguramente em atributos formais – forma, dimensões, escala, relação com a paisagem, materiais utilizados – mas sobretudo, amaldiçoando um estéril e perigoso elenco numérico das qualidades a registar, evitando a redução da arquitetura a sistemas meramente quantitativos, em características extrínsecas ao próprio objeto. Em primeiro lugar, a capacidade de criação – aliás, compositiva - que descreve o objeto a ser acreditado, a partir da operação de lançar um olhar sobre este, que é já projeto, transformando-o e tornando evidente com a produção de uma forma (seja ela uma fotografia, uma colagem, um desenho, um poema, uma composição musical) esta transformação. Uma transformação que consiste sobretudo na ativação de novas relações entre o objeto e outros elementos e layers do território, sejam estes materiais ou imateriais. Método e resultados esperados A acumulação de fragmentos da contemporaneidade sobre a forma de um ábaco de elementos de um vocabulário possível, a abstração das formas que adornam a nossa geografia, o confronto sistemático entre "objetos encontrados", esquecimento de hoje, e casos do passado pelos quais existe uma clara e universal atribuição de qualidade, o desnivelamento de um diálogo organizado entre elementos de pontuação, geneticamente heterogéneos, de diversas frentes costeiras, pode constituir um exercício saudável de observação para poder superar o paradigma do pitoresco e da lente da retórica, principais limites da pesquisa de onde é sempre difícil libertar-se. Desta forma, os investigadores, estudiosos, e administradores que colocarem as lentes dadas por esta pesquisa, e através das quais observarem a paisagem, poderão dialogar, debater e criar avanços disciplinares significativos no sentido de compreender as formas do território, concentrando-se nos mecanismos de reconhecimento e acreditação dos elementos que contribuem para a definição da paisagem contemporânea. A utilidade da dissertação é modernizar e atualizar o paradigma em vez de forçar a realidade a uma evolução improvável de "regresso ao futuro", para constituir uma base disciplinar, seja para elaborar cenários possíveis, seja para estruturar sistemas de avaliação de propostas de criação, seja para uma articulação normativa territorial de nova geração para áreas distintas. ; ABSTRACT: Premises Before proceeding with the widening, confirming or retracting of a few cultural and theoretical archetypes in the field of architecture, it may come useful to do the same with the most basic and overriding of the subject matters under examination: that is the vehicle of the conjectures themselves, the result of a third level three year education program: the PhD thesis. Indeed, it is a research, an investigation carrying an experimental flair; original and unreleased, tackled thoroughly by means of skills and techniques able to control its process. It does not intend to be the deification of dogmatic truths, it is not valid all-round nor reveals the absolute summa of knowledge. On the contrary, whether liked or not, the research activity has a two natured incompleteness: of epistemological and temporal nature. In turn, it derives from previous points of view and is based on upstream studies. It is a section of knowledge having a certain validity domain, transmissible and interchangeable among thinkers and operators belonging to the scientific community. Moreover, and at the same time, it has no limits in its chronological validity and it is not the seeking for a target: rather, a starting point inspiring confidence for future academic researches – both of the writer and reader's – for an incessant disciplinary progress. It is also useful to point out that the subject matter of this study is not the result of a whim; the investigation that it prompted, not an idle exercise. Instead, it was the persisting need urging one to measure oneself – trying one's best to remain as much as possible within his specific educational field (now, more than ever, diluted by the many social-anthropological bewitching) – with a healthy realism at the core of the being contemporary. Object of research Therefore, the object of this research is the contemporary landscape of the coastal segments in Southern Europe, made of geography and objets trouvés, ordinary shapes and materials, unacknowledged architectures, often a result of not very straightforward practices – sections of informal coastal towns, products of self building, unauthorized development and regulation ambiguity – which normally are autonomous in their origin, needs, sense and use in respect to a conventional formal reading, but rising great interest in those who are involved in the field of contemporary anthropized environments. Whether we like it or not, these products (human crafts showing, at times, a brutal and imposing stage presence and at times an insignificant or minor and muffled one) represent a considerable part of contemporary landscapes and of professional chances for us architects, being ever more forced to manipulate, transform and correct, both with our gaze and action, the complexity of these set outs, rather than enriching our territories with new volumes. Abusive buildings in Italy cover over 17% of the gross, while the percentage increases reaching 30-40% if considering buildings along coastal areas. Nearby Greece shows similar routine. If, on the other then, one wishes to broaden the dissertation also to those buildings authorized under the regulation point of view, yet upsetting those who observe them, it is obvious that they cover at least half of what we have constantly observed for years. A phenomenon in terms of quantity according to which it is licit on one hand to recognize that the present positivistic regulatory framework is, basically, most useless, and on the other to speak of a compulsory situation, and not of an uncalled for theoretical disquisition. Perhaps we have truly reached the point of no return. Is it at all possible to hypothesize the demolition of whole stretches of buildings along the coastal areas? How to manage the clearing out and hoarding of further billions of square meters of non-recyclable rubble? Is it financially sustainable? Is it dialectically correct? Culturally synchronic? Any demiurgical activity undertaken in order to re-establish an hypothetical golden age or exalted "zero point" of the natural state of things could appear more presumptuous and senseless – although never considered as such by a very popular common sense – than a humble and realistic attempt to give value to certain shapes studding the territory, describing it honestly being aware of the freedom settled by the discipline and boundaries – within which our research may be defined almost nearer a scientific one – of our expertise as academics in architecture, which must not be confused with our aspirations as dwellers or social users. Indeed, it is all about leaving aside for a moment political or sociological drives and the now very popular "environmental degradation reports", to limit oneself – and that is no limit – to investigate as architects, as we are, the shape, understand to which extent objects and languages that are not accredited nor considered noble can instead represent building material tickling a certain interest. Exactly like others, who have experienced, over and over again and not only in the architectural field, the new culture of sharing. The Sense of acknowledging Therefore, the aim of this PhD thesis is to suggest a reading of contemporary landscape, using the dynamics of the acknowledging as a fundamental means to reassess some objects and coastal segments of our cultural and geographical area, with the final objective of tackling more appropriately the complexity of the managing this territory requires. This research investigates some compositional techniques for the accrediting (that is, the putting at stake) of the object itself - or of the objects if a plurality – in new and many possible ways functional to the setting of the landscape, of the collective space, of the shapes of contemporaneity. The inclination of an object to be accredited is connected to its intrinsic and express characteristics. For sure it may be found in its formal qualities – shape, dimension, scale, relation with the landscape, employed materials – but, above all, preventing a sterile and dangerous numerical list of its qualities (an appalling tendency afflicting our time is to reduce architecture to systems measuring mere quantities, in characteristics extrinsic to the object itself. First of all the ability to design – rather, of composition – of who is describing the object to be accredited; starting from the first gaze, which is already designing, transforming it and making that transformation evident by giving it a shape (whether with a photograph, a collage, a drawing, a poem or musical composition). A transformation mainly consisting in activating new relationships between the object and other elements and layers of the territory, both material and intangible. Method and expected results Exercising gathering fragments of contemporaneity, in the form of an abacus of elements composing a possible vocabulary, the abstraction of the forms that stud our geographies, the systematic comparing of disregarded "found objects" of the present and cases of the past for which there exists an established and universal awarding of quality; the unveiling of an orderly dialogue between punctuation elements - genetically heterogeneous – of the different coastal fronts, may represent a healthy training to observation in order to overcome the paradigm of picturesque and the lens of rhetoric; main limits to research, from the domination of which it is always hard to set free of. In this way researcher, academics and managers who will be seeing the landscape through the glasses of this research may converse, discuss and produce significant guideline improvements towards the understanding of the territory, focusing on the mechanisms of acknowledgement and accreditation of the elements concurring to the definition of the contemporary landscape. To update and modernize the paradigm instead of forcing reality in an unconvincing evolution recalling a "return to the future" could represent the disciplinary grounds for developing possible landscapes, for structuring evaluation models for creative proposals, and for the issuing of a new generation of territory laws and regulation dedicated to distinctive areas. ; N/A

From the introduction: 'The more you know about the Olympics, the less it is about sport'. (Bob Perry, Design director of Olympic Projects at Scott Carver Pty. Ltd, http://www.infolink.com.au). The Olympic Games as a mega sports event attracts millions of people from all over the world. New records, fascinating performances, scandals or gigantic celebrations are just some of the attractions provided by this event. One attraction for urban planners is the fact that the Games imply opportunities to promote urban development. From an urban planning perspective, the Olympic Summer Games in Barcelona 1992 set a new standard in defining success of an event of this scale. The city used the Games to promote urban development and planning strategies, profiting from the event in a long-term perspective. Furthermore, the city took another opportunity to find again a place on the 'global map" through the Olympic Games. The case of Barcelona is one of the mostly cited successful urban development initiatives connected with a mega sports event. Olympic Cities have taken the opportunity to promote urban development with the event very differently in the history of the Olympics. The International Olympic Committee (IOC) as the event-owner sets some requirements giving only a few cities the right to stage the event. These requirements are checked in the bidding process ending with the decision which city succeeds in getting the right of staging the event. Integrating the success of an Olympic City in terms of urban development and in terms of the bidding process, the main question from an urban planning perspective is: What is the relevance of Urban Development in the Bidding Process for Olympic Games? To answer the definition of the city's success in terms of urban development and the Olympic Games bidding process, it is helpful to investigate the role of Olympic Infrastructure with a view towards urban sustainability. As such, it is believed that respecting specific planning principles in the bidding process can help to (1) ensure sustainable urban development and (2) enhance the quality of the bid. - The first aspect is relevant for the success of the city in terms of urban development to benefit from the Games in a long time perspective. - The second aspect is relevant for the city's success in the bidding process to acquire the right for staging the Games. The aim of this thesis is to examine how the quality of the bid may respond to principles of sustainable urban development. Two main objectives are identified to reach the aim: 1. Identifying opportunities and threats connected to Olympic Infrastructure in the history of the Olympics in order to formulate six main principles of sustainable urban development for the Olympic Games. 2. Analyzing official bidding documents of the IOC connected with these principles in order to understand how sustainable urban development can be considered in the bidding process. The thesis will conclude with recommendations which can be realized in the bidding process striving to ensure the defined success for the city. Abstract: This thesis is structured in four major parts. Part I consists of chapter 2 and 3 and includes the theoretical framework and methodology of the thesis. Chapter 2 describes the character of mega-events and mega sports events in specific. Based on a concept of sustainable urban development, it will place mega sports events in the context of such a development, forming a theoretical approach for the thesis. Chapter 3 presents the methodology used. Part II consists of chapter 4 and 5 and provides an overall understanding of the Olympic Games in the context of urban development. Chapter 4 gives an overview of the characteristics of the Olympic Games in order to understand the event and its background. Chapter 5 examines the relationship between urban development and the Olympic Games. A model will be presented in order to define 'Olympic Urban Development" for the following sections of the chapter. The chapter will then continue with an historical overview of Olympic Urban Development and present the decisions determining the scale of development. Finally, chapter 5 concludes with the summary of opportunities and threats identified in a literature review of the Olympic Games. The research questions of Part II can be defined as follows: - What are the significant characteristics of the Olympics in terms of mega-event factors? - How can Olympic Urban Development be defined and modelled? - Which are the opportunities and threats for the built, natural, economic and social environment related to Olympic Urban Infrastructure? An intermediate result re-structures the identified opportunities and threats putting them in connection with the concepts presented in the theoretical part. Chapter 6 will conclude with a definition of six principles of sustainable urban development for planning the Olympic Games. The research question leading to the intermediate result can be defined as follows: - Which kind of principles may respond to a sustainable Olympic Urban Development? The second part ends with Chapter 7 in which relevant IOC documents about sustainable urban development will be presented. Part III sets the bidding process in connection with sustainable urban development. Chapter 8 provides relevant information to understand the bidding process, its different phases and the selection procedure. Chapter 9 finally analyses the official bidding documents of the IOC for the defined principles of sustainable urban development. Summaries and recommendations will introduce the main findings for each principle and respond to three main research questions: - Which parts in the bidding documents deal with the principle? - How relevant is the principle in the evaluation of the bid? - Which strategies support the quality of the bid and contribute to meet the objectives of the principle? Part IV includes the conclusion of the thesis and summarizes the main findings of the analysis.Inhaltsverzeichnis:Table of Contents: Preface0 Index1 List of Figures and Tables4 1.INTRODUCTION5 1.1Aim and purpose of the thesis5 1.2Structure of the thesis6 PART I: THEORETICAL FRAMEWORK AND METHODOLOGY 2.THEORETICAL FRAMEWORK9 2.1Mega Events9 2.2Factors of mega-events11 2.3Mega Sports Events12 2.3.1Phases of Mega Sports Events13 2.3.2Bidding14 2.3.3Impacts of Mega Sports Events14 2.4Physical Impact: Mega sports event Infrastructure18 2.5Sustainable Urban Development20 2.6Sustainable Urban Development in the context of a mega sports event22 2.7Definitions and Limitations23 3.METHODOLOGY25 PART II: UNDERSTANDING THE OLYMPIC GAMES IN THE CONTEXT OF URBAN DEVELOPMENT 4.Olympic Games Characteristics29 4.1History of the Olympic Games29 4.2The Olympic Movement30 4.3Olympic Games Factors31 4.4Olympic Games Phases35 5.Olympic Urban Development37 5.1Definition37 5.1.1Olympic Infrastructure38 5.1.2Urban Infrastructure38 5.1.3Modelling an Olympic City40 5.2History of Olympic Urban Development42 5.3Decisions determining Olympic Urban Development47 5.3.1Local distribution of Olympic Infrastructure48 5.3.2Funding Model50 5.3.3Expenditure on Olympic Infrastructure51 5.3.4Use of existing Olympic Infrastructure53 5.4Opportunities and Threats54 5.4.1Built environment54 5.4.2Natural Environment57 5.4.3Economic Environment60 5.4.4Social Environment61 5.4.5Summary64 6.Intermediate Result: Defining Principles of Sustainable Urban Development for Planning Olympic Infrastructure66 6.1Principles66 6.2Objectives68 7.Relevant IOC Documents on Sustainable Urban Development70 7.1Olympic Charter70 7.2Olympic Agenda 2170 7.3IOC Manual on Sports and the Environment72 7.4Olympic Games Study Commission73 PART III: THE BIDDING PROCESS IN THE CONTEXT OF SUSTAINABLE URBAN DEVELOPMENT 8.Olympic Games Bidding Process74 8.1History of the Olympic Games Bidding Process74 8.2The process78 8.2.1Phase 1: Candidature Acceptance Procedure (CAP)78 8.2.2Evaluation of the Working Group Report79 8.2.3Phase 2: Candidature Procedure83 8.3Selection of the Host City85 8.3.1Election Procedure85 8.3.2Decision Making in the Electing Procedure for a host city86 8.4Summary88 9.Analysing Principles of Sustainable Urban Development in the Bidding Process90 9.1Principle 1: Integrate Olympic Infrastructure in urban development plans92 9.1.1Phase 1: Candidature Acceptance Procedure92 9.1.2Evaluation in the Working Group Report92 9.1.3Phase 2: Candidature Procedure94 9.1.4Summary95 9.1.5Recommendations96 9.2Principle 2: Ensure Post-Event Use for Olympic Infrastructure97 9.2.1Phase 1: Candidature Acceptance Procedure97 9.2.2Evaluation in the Working Group Report98 9.2.3Phase 2: Candidature Procedure99 9.2.4Summary100 9.2.5Recommendations101 9.3Principle 3: Maximise the use of existing infrastructure by respecting the city's budget104 9.3.1Phase 1: Candidature Acceptance Procedure104 9.3.2Evaluation in the Working Group Report105 9.3.3Phase 2: Candidature Procedure107 9.3.4Summary107 9.3.5Recommendations108 9.4Principle 4: Ensure environmental standards for Olympic Infrastructure and accessibility to environmental goods109 9.4.1Phase 1: Candidature Acceptance Procedure109 9.4.2Evaluation in the Working Group Report109 9.4.3Phase 2: Candidature Procedure111 9.4.4Summary112 9.4.5Recommendations113 9.5Principle 5: Integration of citizens in the planning process of Olympic Infrastructure114 9.5.1Phase 1: Candidature Acceptance Procedure114 9.5.2Evaluation in the Working Group Report114 9.5.3Phase 2: Candidature Procedure115 9.5.4Summary116 9.5.5Recommendations117 9.6Principle 6: Stimulate improvement of Urban Infrastructure through Olympic Infrastructure118 9.6.1Phase 1: Candidature Acceptance Procedure118 9.6.2Evaluation in the Working Group Report119 9.6.3Phase 2: Candidature Procedure120 9.6.4Summary121 9.6.5Recommendations122 PART IV: CONCLUSION126 10.Conclusion126 10.1Conclusion of the analysis126 10.1.1Relevance of Sustainable Urban Development in the Bidding Process126 10.1.2How to respond to principles of sustainable urban development in the bid127 10.2General Conclusions130 10.2.1The interest of the IOC in Sustainable Urban Development130 10.2.2The real winner of a bidding process130 10.2.3Outlook on the future of the Games131 11.Appendix133 11.1References133 11.2Abbreviations137 11.3Extracts from Bidding Documents138 11.3.1Phase 1: Candidature Acceptance Procedure (CAP)138 11.3.2Evaluation: Working Group Report140 11.3.3Phase 2: Candidature Procedure142Textprobe:Text Sample: Chapter 5.4, Opportunities and Threats: This section study provides a discussion on opportunities and threats related to Olympic Infrastructure. Potential effects are presented and ordered according to the different environments of a city (section 2.4). The IOC officially uses the term 'Legacy' for potential post-event effects preferably underlining positive ones. The sources used in this literature review (Cashman, 2002; Essex Chalkley, 2003; Furrer, 2002; Matos, 2006; Liao Pitts, 2006; Preuss, 2006; Centre On Housing Rights and Evictions (COHRE), 2007; Ward, 2007; WWF, 2004) reflect the potential effects of the Olympics critically from different perspectives (researchers, NGOs, IOC related person). If applicable, the opportunities and threats are illustrated with examples. A summary is given in the end of this section as a basis for developing principles of sustainable urban development. As the potential effects have a multidimensional character, two selection criteria limit their number: - Time: The potential effect might occur at any period of the event but must have a relevance for the city in a long-time perspective. - Space: The potential effect might occur at a micro (e.g. dislocation) or macro (e.g. polycentric development) level but is relevant mainly for a city (not a region or nation). 5.4.1, Built environment: - Boost for urban development projects and urban renewal. Locational decision on Olympic Infrastructure opens the opportunity for a city to boost its urban development projects in favour of the city. There is a chance to connect a city's urban development strategy with Olympic Infrastructure projects. History of the Olympics shows that cities have dealt very differently with this opportunity (see section 4.1). Some have used the Olympics to reinvent the city while others have concentrated solely on the successful organization of the event itself. In many cases, Olympic Infrastructure is also used to trigger massive urban regeneration projects and the idea to create new centralities within the city. Development corridors can be focused through Olympic Infrastructure and stimulate urban development nearby. Strategic positioning of Olympic Infrastructure in specific urban areas may contribute to a polycentric development. This is especially true for the positioning of key Olympic Infrastructure represented by the Olympic Main Stadium, the main indoor halls and the aquatic centre. Barcelona 1992 is probably the most successful Olympics regarded to large-scale urban development. Urban planners of the city saw the Olympic Games as an useful instrument to achieve the objectives of development plans which had been the improvement of transport system, creation of new facilities, definition of central space and balancing the city. The initial authorized to make the first draft of the Olympic from an urban perspective was part of the Olympic Bidding Team and later entered into the Organizing Committee. The changes of the entire urban fabric connected to Olympic Infrastructure based on what was already existing in Barcelona became a best practice in terms of mega-event related urban development. - Changes of Urban Development plans in favour of the event/bid. Potential changes of existing urban development plans can occur in the preparation phase of the event due to tight time constraints. To speed up land acquisition for Olympic Infrastructure some cities approve special legislative acts and give power to Organizing Committees. Special building permits are created in the area where Olympic Infrastructure has to be built and can contribute to long-lasting procedural changes in the city. A special law for the Athens 2004 Games recognized the strategic significance of the Olympic Games to the evolution of the metropolitan area. The location of Olympic Infrastructure was determined as to be in accordance with the regional, environmental and urban development guidelines of the master plan of Athens. Through this legislation and the installation of special agencies it was possible to accelerate permits of Olympic Works. - Modernization and Upgrading of existing facilities. In terms of existing infrastructure, the Olympics bring the opportunity to upgrade and modernize sports facilities. This may also decrease financial risk. The main Olympic Stadium as the centrepiece of Olympic Infrastructure relies traditionally on public funding. Some Olympic Cities have strived to use existing facilities or refurbished ones for this major infrastructure project. Naturally, development of sports facilities had to be faced by almost all Olympic cities. Moscow 1980 and Barcelona 1992 used mainly existing sports facilities and refurbished existing Stadiums to Main Olympic Stadiums. Los Angeles 1984 used existing facilities to a large extent. - Unused large-scale facilities. The history of the Olympic Games shows that many Olympic sports facilities received poor post-Games usage. International Olympic Sports Federations have often pushed host cities to provide over-ambitious state-of-the-art facilities which are not in line with the local popularity of the sport. Furthermore, local agendas have often pushed for grandiose landmark legacies to be built in order to showcase the local economy and engineering ability. These objects might be designed over-sized and turn in a post-event period to 'White elephants'. They may neither integrate a long-term urban planning policy nor relate to the population's need for leisure and culture facilities. It is sometimes difficult to convince leading teams in specific sports to move their home ground to new Olympic Infrastructures. Another problem in this respect is the difficulty to attract large crowds to newly developed parts of the city away from trying to opportunity the citizens habits. The Olympic stadium of Sydney 2000 generated continuing losses at A$38 million/year six years after the event. The competition for sports events with other stadia in Sydney caused limited booking and shows the lack of post-use planning. 'Sydney Jurassic Park' is a symbolic expression used by criticizers of the post-use of Sydney Olympic Park. - Increase of Housing stock through Olympic Village. The Olympic Village is often located close to the sports facilities and represents the accommodation for the Olympic Family. It is an essential part of Olympic Infrastructure and has to be addressed by every hosting city. In many cases, Olympic Villages become residential areas for local people or halls of residences for a local university or college after the Games. Thus, an Olympic Village is a chance to increase the city's housing stock and provide facilities for alternative uses in a post-event period. 'In Barcelona and Sydney the former Olympic Villages now provide a mixture of housing that contributes to the cities' housing stock and adds a valuable source of revenue to cover Games-related expenditure'. - Improvement of transport infrastructure. As we have seen in the previous chapter, Olympic Infrastructure induces also the upgrade of the city's transport infrastructure. For an effective transport of athletes, spectators and officials during the event many host cities tend to expand their transport system Investment of previous Olympic Cities is often focused especially on underground or light rail system. Recent Olympic Cities (Athens and Beijing) invest in tram and overhead urban rail system due to high costs and implementation difficulties of underground transport. This may contribute to a better infrastructure for citizens and decreases traffic pressure in inner city and congestion. Asian Olympic Cities have strongly linked the Games to transport infrastructure. Between 1957 and 1964 Tokyo established 73 km underground, 13.2 km monorail and 500 km Shinkansen connecting Tokyo, Kyoto and Osaka. Seoul added 157.1 km to the length of its underground network from 1978 to 1993 for the preparation of the Games. Finally, Beijing extended its light rail length by 87.1 km before 2008. A strong reliance to public transport can be observed in Seoul and Tokyo through this investment related to Olympic Infrastructure. - Development of other Infrastructure. Furthermore, development of Olympic Infrastructure can be a driver for additional infrastructural improvements in the city, affecting the entire urban fabric. A basic infrastructure is needed serving Olympic facilities. Many cities have used the event as a catalyst to induce such investment and bring other infrastructure to a higher level appropriate for international visitors. Such investments can enhance the Quality of life for citizens, tourists and attract inward investment. Tokyo included the improvement of water supply system, higher public health standards for refuse collection, street cleaning, public toilets and three sewage disposal plants. Barcelona, Atlanta and Sydney invested in telecommunication systems through the staging of the event. Cultural and research facilities (Olympic Studies Centre, Olympic Museum) close to Olympic Infrastructure supporting the Olympic Cultural Programme were realized in many Olympic Cities. - Destruction of cultural heritage. There is a potential risk that Olympic Infrastructure may affect the cultural heritage of a city negatively. The potential risk seems to be higher for Olympic Cities approaching development in the inner city. Consequently, disregarding the laws may lead to the destruction of culturally built environment and displacement of residents. Infrastructure development for the Games of Beijing 2008 negatively affected the cultural heritage of the city. Demolition in Beijing was an ongoing process in the whole city, especially threatening the old 'hutong' and 'siheyuan' areas. According to reports of COHRE the violation of Cultural Heritage Protection laws and regulations effected both irreparably damaged cultural heritage and also violated residents' rights to adequate housing.

Transcript of an oral history interview with John H. "Jack" Pimm, conducted by Sarah Yahm in January 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. John Pimm was a member of the Norwich University Class of 1945; his education was interrupted by his military service in World War II. His interview includes recollections of both his time as a student at Norwich University and his service overseas during the war. ; 1 Mr. John H. "Jack" Pimm, NU 1945, Oral History Interview January , 2015 Sullivan Museum and History Center, Norwich University Interviewed by Sarah Yahm Transcribed by C.T. Haywood, NU '12 February 5, 2015 SY: Did that work? Is that comfortable? JP: Yeah. Sure. SY: Okay, terrific. [coughs] So if you could just start by telling me your full name. JP: My full name is John H. Pimm, P-I-M-M, SY: And you go by Jack? JP: Yeah, Jack is my— SY: And where were you born? And when you were born? JP: I was born on January 10, 1924, in Hamden, Connecticut, which is a suburb of New Haven, Connecticut. SY: Yup, I have driven through it, I think. And you know [coughs] something I've been asking everybody who's served in the military was did you play war as a kid? Did you think about going to war? Did you play out in the woods and pretend that you were fighting? JP: Well when I was, my dad got me a .22 single shot which I still have when I was nine-years-old, and I lived in a rural community so there were plenty of woods around and we didn't play war, we played hunting anything that'll move. We shot at woodchucks, squirrels, birds, everything. That was our sort of what we did. SY: So [coughs] how did you end up at Norwich? JP: Well, I graduated from Wethersfield High School in the class of '41, and actually my mother had her friend whose son went to Norwich. I looked at Norwich. I could've to the University of Connecticut or one of the options was I was thinking of going to Pratt & Whitney in the apprentice toolmakers group but I went to Norwich and I thought that was kind of neat so that's how I ended. SY: Yeah what about it did you think was neat? JP: Well I sort of—the military appealed to me, you know, and being in those days there was no superhighways it was a long drive or you went up on the Montrealer which went from Hart—I was living in Wethersfield, Connecticut at the time and that's the train that went through to Montreal and made stops in Northfi—they would stop in Northfield if there's anybody who wanted to get off so. So that's how I happened to go there. SY: That train still exists. JP: It is still there? SY: [coughs] Yeah I've taken it, I've taken it from New York to Montreal.2 JP: Well ok, good. SY: So yeah, well what was your experience like at Norwich when you first got there? Do you remember your first impressions? Do you remember being a Rook and what that was like? JP: Well I was a little, you know I didn't realize that you went through one semester of hazing which you did and that was ah [chuckles] some of it was we thought pretty rough actually. There were a couple of the freshmen when they started getting hazing quit school, so but I thought it was just something you went through and actually some of the guys that were the worst hazers in the sophomore class became good friends after it was over, so. SY: What was the hazing like? JP: Well you had to wait on the upperclassmen. You had to drill every night. One of the exercises was standing with your back to the wall holding a rifle out in front where you thought you were going to drop dead. But that went on every night. And it's just the upperclassmen inspected your room, you know, and we stood reveille. Your bed had to be made by then and if you didn't make it tight enough you were screamed at, and they just tried to make it miserable which they mostly succeeded in doing. SY: Did you ever think about leaving? JM: No. SY: You didn't, why not? JP: I just thought it was part of the thing to do and I knew it was going be over so, you know. SY: And so when you think about Norwich now, what do you think about? I think you mentioned horses to me when you talked the other—? JP: Well it was the horse cavalry when I went there. They had 180 horses and you had riding lessons one day a week and then troop drill another day. You know there was roughly, what, 160 in a troop? And the lower field which I don't know what it is now but that used to be troop drill so that was pretty neat. They let us use the horses on the weekend to ride out into the mountains, and the hills around there for a couple of hours at a time. I had a particular horse, I remember her name was Lacey, that I used to ride and my, a buddy of mine his name was Ken Clary, he's since died, he and I used to ride weekends when we could. So it was kind of a fun thing. SY: And you said something about how you had to make sure the upperclassmen didn't jam your spurs? What happened? JP: Well when you were in troop drill of course you'd be four in line and you'd be in the middle and the favorite thing is upperclassmen, mostly the sophomores, would turn their spurs and try to jam 'em into your horse so that you'd, the horse'd leap forward you know and then when you'd leap, when the horse leaped forward they'd holler at, "Get back in line," you know, so it was a favorite. SY: Did that ever happen to you? JP: Yeah. SY: Yeah. JP: Yeah, it was, it was at the time I thought it was pretty exciting but it was different, let's put it that way. 3 SY: Yeah, so, do you remember where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor? JP: Ah, well I'm sure I was in, I can't tell you the name of the place but it was on the in the barracks where we were when I heard about it, yeah. Newspapers were not something handed, we had to, I—we had to be told about by somebody else so… SY: You didn't have radios either? JP: No. We didn't have radios either. SY: So you weren't getting any news? JP: No. I remember the most exciting thing about it was that the, commandant at the time I can't even remember what his name was but he used to. We had guards all night. I don't know what we were guarding, anyway but and they carried .45s, the standard issue .45 and when Pearl Harbor happened they issued ammunition for the first time and that I guess what happened is some guy got up to go to the john and the guard said you know, "Halt, where you are," and he said, you know, "Screw you," and the guy fired a shot in the air and the next day they took all the ammunition away. That was the last time. SY: Yeah, I bet they did, JP: Yeah that was the last time that happened, yeah, SY: Yeah, I bet it was. So okay, so at that point you probably knew you were going to war? JP: Well yeah, they hadn't, they announced the draft after that you know and we had to register. Everybody who was eighteen had to or over up. I think they registered eighteen to thirty-five. SY: So did you go down to Northfield to register, did somebody come to campus? JP: I honestly don't remember where we registered, yeah. SY: But then, but you decided you're going to enlist, right? Or the whole school did, how did that work? JP: Ah [chuckles] I remember the date, it was September 14, 1942 they marched us all down the Armory and said, "You're enlisting in the Army," and we did, that was it. SY: How did you feel about it? JP: Well everybody else was doing it so you know. Being eighteen you knew you'd be one of the first to go. So I, you know, it's just part of what it was that's all. SY: Do you remember, I think that the Army also took the horses from Norwich and conscripted them, do you remember that? The horses being marched off campus? JP: No I don't. I don't remember when that happened. SY: I saw picture of it actually, JP: Oh really, SY: Just the other day, yeah. So okay, you enlisted and then what happened, where'd you go? JP: Well they, we enlisted and then we were called up and I had to report Fort Devens, Mass., from there. Let's see, we went by train to a camp outside of St. Louis where we went through a bunch of tests and orientation they called it and they shipped us up to the University of Nebraska in Lincoln and then, we're 4 here again. I was a mechanic in the Mechanical Engineering Department. The guys who were mechanical engineering and myself were shipped down to Columbia, Missouri to the University of Missouri there and we were bunked in the SAE House there on the University of Michigan. And there were four or five guys from Norwich, there was a lot of guys from the Michigan State there and oh we registered to take what we were supposed to take in engineering and the…the manger whatever you want to call, the dean of mechanical engineering found that we had taken the courses the Army wanted us to take. So he signed us up for our continuing education so we got to take courses that would have been in our junior year at Norwich. SY: Oh, that's exciting, JP: Yeah, so. SY: Yeah, so okay, so then, you were getting ready to ship overseas I would imagine? JP: No, we stayed there until the spring of '44 and then they disbanded that program. We were shipped to Camp Swift, Texas where, we were in entered, not all of us, most of went in different directions. Some of the guys went to infantry divisions, I went Camp Swift, Texas and was put in the 1252nd Combat Engineer Battalion. SY: And what does that mean, what were you guys gonna be doing in the war? JP: Well combat engineers you, we did all, in some cases we went in ahead of the infantry. We did river crossings, we did a lot of demolition work, I specialized in demolition learning how to use TNT and various other. You didn't have dynamite that was too too unstable, but we did a lot work with TNT and other type of explosive and I can't remember what it was. But other than that it was standard infantry. We did a lot of, [chuckles] we did awful lot of hikes, we did a lot of shooting, that's when you qualify. It was no big deal for me 'cause I shot a rifle my whole life and let's see. SY: And [coughs] so tell me about how you went over to Europe, JP: Well in, let's see. I think it was in the end of July, we were shipped by rail to, it took a couple of days to do it to Camp Kilmer, New Jersey from there Camp Kilmer, New Jersey is close to, close to New York, cross the Hudson River there and I remember they gave us, if you live nearby you were given a twenty-four hour leave, and this buddy of mine he actually lived in Des Moines, Iowa, but he said he lived in Connecticut so the two of us went to New York City and my mother actually came down to New York City and met us late and we had dinner at the Alm—at one of the, what do you call it, the Almanac's oh not Almanac…. SY: Oh where Dorothy Parker used to go, you were talking about the.I can't remember what that's called, JP: Automats, Automats that. SY: Oh one of the Automats oh… JP: Yeah, my brother, older brother who was a tail gunner in a B-24 his girlfriend who had gone through even in high school was a dancer in Broadway. She was dancing in Pal Joey with Van Johnson and can't think of the other guy's name. Anyway, we got to see her and see my mother for a minute and went back to camp. And then the next morning they took us to the 42nd Street Ferry in Wee… SY: 42nd Street Ferry? I've never heard of such a thing. 5 JP: In Weehawken, New Jersey on the, so we went to the 42nd through, street ferry and we took the ferry across to a dock and there we were surrounded by MPs 'cause they were afraid some of the guys would bolt and we were loaded. And interesting enough the 42nd Street Ferry, when I a kid, my grandmother lived in Weehawken, New Jersey and when my brother and I were like twelve and ten, ten and twelve. My dad would get us a dime each and we would walk down to the ferry and ride back and forth on it all day. So I, it's the same ferry that took us across to the, and the ship's name was the, it was an English troop ship called the Tameroa and the Tameroa you know we thought it was a dump but, we were, we left there went out by the Statue of Liberty, and joined a convoy. We went north I think and we picked up a convoy that I'm told was one of the largest convoys that ever went across. So this is in, I think it was in early August and… SY: Do you remember what you were thinking when you riding the Weehawken Ferry? When you were passing the Statue of Liberty, I mean you were what nineteen, something like that? JP: Let's see, I was twenty, I was an old one, SY: You were twenty, what did you remember what you were thinking when all that was happening? JP: Well, some of the guys kept thinking, do—will we come back or not? You know that was a little bit. SY: So you were thinking about that? JP: Yeah, yeah it was pretty, well you're with a bunch of guys so you know anyway, and I remember the convoy because we had four destroyers circling and escorting us on. I was told afterwards that two of the ships were sunk by the Germans, but I didn't know that at the time. It took us three weeks to get to England and that, what I remembered the food was horrible. For breakfast they had boiled bacon, have you ever heard of that? SY: No, I never heard that, JP: That was terrible, yeah, SY: Only the British could do something so terrible with bacon. JP: Yeah, and we landed finally at Southampton, England and from there we were trucked, or went by train to Torquay, which was on the southern coast, which was actually a, I learned afterwards was a resort area and we were billeted there. The Tameroa interestingly enough left us and was going someplace and was sunk two days after we got off at, which we saw was great 'cause we thought it was a worst piece of junk we ever rode in but, it was a very, you know, it was like a Liberty Ships, and it was, it was a pretty rough. I didn't go below, I was on guard duty four on and eight off so I was on from midnight till four in the morning and then noon to four with another fellow and, we were, it was our job to keep the aircraft gunners who sat in those special seats where there were two twenty millimeter cannon on each side of them to keep them awake, 'cause those guys would get in there and try to sleep, you know, so we had to keep them awake, that was our job. SY: What did you guys talk about for midnight to four in the morning on the dock of the ship? JP: Well actually the guy I was with had a beautiful voice and he would sing that song, "Lilli Marlene," SY: Ah, do you remember it? Do you want to sing a little bit of it? 6 JP: No, [laughs] but I have a record of it, with Marlene Dietrich. She sang in the English and in German, it was a German song too with the English. The English adopted it and there was a gal, an English gal by the name of Vera Lynne who sang it. We heard later, anyway. SY: And so he used to sing that? JP: Yeah he used to sing and that helped us keep us awake because we had to walk. We had a one set of guns that on one side and the other, on the other side, so that was… SY: You never went below deck 'cause it smelled so bad? JP: Yeah, there were too many guys, sick throwing up down there, so it was not very pleasant, yeah. SY: So how long were you in England? JP: Ah, well we were in England until December. They had a shortage of ammunition so I guess that's what's held us from going across the Channel and we went, so went across the Channel in December of '45 when the Battle of the Bulge started. SY: So describe that to me, JP: Well, we went back to Southampton we were loaded into a troop ship and taken across the English Channel and then they loaded us, we went off. They had these rope nets that went over the side down to what they call it an LCVP, landing craft, personnel and we went into a place above La Havre the beach. We were not under, we were supposedly under sniper fire but none of our guys that I knew got hit. And we landed in France and that was the start of our, we were involved with the, we were later assigned to the 6th Armored Division, Patton's group who who ah brought them up. Patton was originally, I think in southern France and he brought a column of tanks up to help on the Battle of the Bulge so we were involved in that. SY: So that was your first experience with combat, huh? JP: Yeah, I got to tell you the most exciting thing that I remember was New Year's Eve and on New Year's Eve the Americans with their artillery and all let go big time and big flares and the Germans did the same thing. So the sky was absolutely white there for a few minutes at midnight. SY: And and it was, was it like celebratory? I mean so that everybody celebrating. That's it's sort of like the Christmas Truce in World War I a little, right? JP: Yeah I don't think we were celebrating. I just thought that we—yeah we were celebrating, that we made 'till—to to January 1, 1945, yeah. SY: And they were too? JP: Yeah, right, so…. SY: Yeah, in that moment did you think about them as soldiers like you? Did you it humanize them a little bit? JP: Not really, SY: Not really, yeah? 7 JP: No, we 'cause we knew they were trying to kill us and we were trying to kill them. So it was real simple. SY: And it wasn't like the fighting stopped it was just that you—g JP: No, S: You looked at the skies for a few minutes? JP: Right, yeah, just tell everybody no, 'cause I can't remember wearing a watch or anything like that. SY: Right, so this was trench warfare, essentially, huh? You weren't— JP: Well we weren't in trenches we were in foxholes, SY: [coughs] So what was that like? JP: Well you'd dig, well you'd hoped you got in a fox, you, normally there were two of us together, you hoped you didn't get in with a guy that was too tall because you'd have to dig the foxhole too deep. But we were moved up to I think the Our River where we, we were very thin it was snow, we were doing this in the snow and I remember one time and the Germans were deadly with their mortar fire. We lost a lot of guys with that. SY: Yeah, JP: And you got a…. SY: Did you lose any close friends? JP: Yeah, one kid that I really, was in my squad and he was a pretty neat guy. Well he was a student from someplace in Iowa, and he went, I'm not sure. So in a particular mortar fire we both dove under a Jeep and he was hit in both legs and I wasn't and I remember he cruelly said, "Jack, I can't move my legs," and he said, "Give me my wound pills." So he carried what they call wound pills, which were sulfur type pill. Penicillin hadn't been discovered then. So we, I gave him sulfur and a drink of water to get it down and then the medics got him out of there. You got to appreciate there were no heli—the only reason way to guy who was wounded out was by stretcher to a point where you could put him on a Jeep the Jeeps had a, they'd take two, two stretchers in the front and two in the back and that's the way they got him back to the nearest aid station or field hospital. But I remember this one place where we were so thin that we would take the machine guns most of the air cooled, we did have water cooled guns too, and we'd fire bursts of them and then we'd run about fifty yards further up and fire 'em and try and convince the Germans there were a lot of us and there weren't, there were only us few. And they said, "You know, stop 'em if you can, if you can't they'll go through, so just let 'em go." So…. SY: How long were you fighting there? Was it a couple of weeks, right? JP: Yeah well yeah. Yeah I think the worst of it were over by the middle of, or the latter part of January. I remember one thing that I thought was funny afterwards is this other guy and I were in this foxhole and you could hear all this noise and we thought the whole German army was attacking us. And we were issued hand grenades and I threw I would say five or six hand grenades as fast as I could and then it all quieted down and the next morning when I looked out to see what happened and we killed a bunch of rabbits. So… SY: Huh, 8 JP: So… SY: Really? JP: Yeah… so, that was… SY: What did you think in that moment looking at the rabbits? JP: [laughs] I thought, those poor bastards, you know, SY: Right, right, JP: Yeah so…. SY: Oh my God, you guys you must have been terrified in that foxhole? JP: Well you got, you know, mostly you were cold. We had grabbed sheets out of the houses and tried to use them as camouflage over us because of to, blend in with the snow you know so. SY: Mhmm, JP: So, SY: Did you have, did you have enough boot—were your boots okay? Did you warm clothes or were you just freezing? JP: Well our clothing was pretty limited, we all had a blanket that we somehow wrapped up around us or tried to. The boots were, we had standard issue boots but it wasn't till later in January we were pulled back they gave us shoe packs that had rubber on the bottom, you know, the L.L. Bean type of shoe where our feet were then, then finally warm. There were a lot of guys that got frozen feet and loss—lost a couple of toes as long as you didn't lose your big toe, you were alright. SY: I was just gonna say, did they send you home for that or no? JP: No, no SY: No they didn't send you home for that? Huh, okay. So you never, you didn't get wounded during the Battle of the Bulge? But yet did you have, it sounds like you had some near misses though? JP: Yeah, I had some near misses, they, there was a lot of small arm fire and machine guns, the Germans have what they call a Burp gun which is probably a, which was fired faster. We were had the M1s where we had eight cartridge clips and you could fire as you could pull but the Germans had sort of an automatic weapon, I guess somewhat like a Tommy gun, but the Tommy gun was old, you know and heavy, so. SY: Was combat what you thought it would be or was it very different than what you'd expected? JP: It probably pretty much the way we had, you got to appreciate that we did, we shot, other than firing the machine gun through for effect our rifles we shot one we saw somebody to shoot at. We didn't just fire intermittently yeah. I see in the movies or the way they do now they fire bursts and stuff like that and general direction, we didn't do that. We fired at individuals who were firing at us so. It wa… SY: So that was what you, so was what you expected it was? JP: Yeah, yeah. We had been trained liked you know, part of our infantry training had been with bayonets so we were prepared to the fact that we'd have a close close warfare we never got to the point where we 9 had to use the bayonets and eventually it's something like, they gave us gas masks and we trained for gas masks a lot. And finally threw 'em away 'cause you got to get rid of anything that was too heavy to carry you know, so. SY: Right, I mean those were sort of World War I that they were sort training you a little bit for World War I? JP: Yeah right, SY: Yeah that makes sense. Do you remember what you would joke about to keep your spirits up if you sang and what you sang things like that? JP: No I don't remember much singing. SY: What about jokes? JP: Well there were a couple of guys that, and I don't remember what they were there were some guys that were really happier that other guys we had one guy we called, "Happy," and he was we thought a little nuts, he had come into our outfit as a replacement after being in the Aleutians so I thought you know how bad can it be. But and I had another friend in our platoon, I remember his name was Eddie Indamowicz and he had been in the Aleutians, came home, and was there forty-five days and sent our outfit as a replacement and thought how bad can it get, you know? SY: And what? JP: I said, I thought he had it as bad as here could get, you know? SY: Yeah, JP: Yeah, SY: Yeah. Hey did you have any good luck charms to keep you safe, things you would do, superstitious things you would do to keep yourself safe in battle? JP: No, I didn't have any of that. SY: You didn't have any of that. Okay, so then the Battle of the Bulge ended, do you remember the ending, do you remember the Allied victory? JP: No, no it wasn't like that, it's just that I remember one of the things was that there. Germans had a lot of horses and their tanks were much superior, their Tiger tank was much better than our Sherman tank, I thought and but they ran out of fuel and they used horses to try to aim their guns and the American artillery knocked, killed a lot of horses. So that it for a while everywhere you went as you went through you saw dead horses so. I didn't know they were good to eat at the time we were living on K Rations and K Rations and D Bars so yeah… SY: And did people eat them later? JP: Well horse meat is a standard fixture in Paris, in France yeah they eat 'em all the time. SY: So okay, so how did you, so how did it all end for you at the Battle of the Bulge? When did you, you guys kept walking right? Through Czechoslovakia and through Germany? 10 JP: Well we did a lot of. Part of our deal was clearing mine fields and clearing the roads ahead of the tanks. So we went ahead of the tanks to make sure they, the Germans had what the call a teller mine that would, they would plant and it was our job to clean them out before that time and so we did that under fire which wasn't too healthy. We were the outfit that helped breached the Siegfried Line which was the German pillbox line and under fire from the tanks. My job was to climb on top of the pillbox and use what they called a shape charge to blow a hole in it and then we'd drop grenades and try to kill all the Germans inside the pillbox, and then when they came out a lot of them, I didn't know one particular case which is a large pillbox they came out and with their hands up of course and except for the SS lieutenant who said he would not surrender so we killed him. But in one case there was a guy in our I guess he was 3rd platoon whose family was German and he spoke regular German and he went, we went into the pillbox and he got on the phone it was connected to other pillboxes and told them that he was a commandant for German and to surrender and we surprise, we were surprised that we had gone by a pillbox and hadn't even seen it was so well camouflaged and two guys came walking out that with their hands up. So we thought that unusual, yeah. SY: Wow JP: Yeah, SY: Wow, huh. JP: So. SY: Interesting, okay so, so you reached the Siegfried, the Siegfried Line. JP: Siegfried, yeah, yeah, SY: And then you just kept walking? JP: Well or on trucks or on the tanks, we rode on the tanks, too. We were involved with the Rhine and I think that was towards the end of March, right. I'm not sure of the dates here. It's been so many years ago. But I was in the first wave at Saint Goarshausen across the Rhine and they had given us motors to we took part of the 89th Division across and in the first wave we had some gun fire and not too much and got over and got into the town and then it was all rifle fire. I remember shooting a women that was firing at us and I don't know whether I killed her or not but anyways stopped firing. But the second wave in the second wave the Germans opened up from above one of those castles and I'm told they killed 100 guys. So it was a bloody thing, so… SY: Wow, yeah, JP: But we secured the town and slept in the German beds that night [chucklses] so it was good. And then it… SY: Really? JP: Yeah, then the next morning I got up and one of the guys came into me and said, "Jack, look there's a deer up there, about 150 yards away," and actually there are two of them and I shot them both and they came down the mountain and we had a guy who was a, knew how to butcher 'em. So we cut him into steaks and soaked them in red wine and ate 'em night, they were really good. SY: Mhmm….probably the best thing you'd eaten in a very long time? JP: Yeah, right, yeah. 11 SY: Yeah, yeah, what was the, what did the countryside look like that you were moving through? JP: Well, it was mostly, when we went through the German farms, and German's place, like that they, the German people came right out and repaired their their land because you know we kind of beat it up. They didn't, the French didn't seem to do that and I don't know, they had been at us so long that they thought it would continue to you know be messed up. But you know it was a lot of riding. I remember once riding in we were riding in six by sixes, trucks and we had a squad in each truck and we were strafed by a—they rode what they had what they call cat eyes on the front of us. Front of the truck where the enabled the driver to see the next truck in front of them and course you couldn't have headlights or anything like that. And we were strafed and they pulled over quickly and we all jumped out and ran as far away as we could but there were two guys who were replacements and they dove, dove under the trailer we were pulling and afterwards when it was over and we climbed back into the truck. They said, "You guys were crazy running like like that." And he said, "We jumped on this trailer." And he said, "Yeah but that trailer had 700 pounds of TNT in it." I said, "You'd gone to smithereens if they ever had." So in that particular thing they, their machine guns went through the windshield but right between the two guys that were riding there and didn't kill the other one. So I thought that was kind of different. SY: Wow, JP: Yeah, SY: So, so tell me about Buchenwald, JP: Well the concentration camp was freed by, I don't— either the 82nd Airborne or the 101st one of the first of those two airborne division. We came in afterwards and ah— SY: Afterwards, JP: Well it couldn't have been too long afterwards because the kilns were still hot where they cremated the bodies and there were wagon loads of bodies that had been gassed, just piled like cordwood on a thing. There were some gas… SY: It must have been there, just a day or two after the first Americans got there? JP: I'm sorry I didn't hear you Sarah. SY: I said, it must have been just a day or two after the first Americans got there? JP: Oh yeah, SY: If the bodies were still there, JP: Oh yeah the bodies were still there and the crem—the kilns were still hot too, so. There were guys skinny as could be and were had been that were prisoners there and we gave 'em our K Rations so they'd have something to eat you know they had, I think, and afterwards I heard that the general in charge of that section marched all of the people from Weimar which this is a town outside of the concentration down there to show what had been going on 'cause they acted like they didn't know what was, which I don't think was true. But… SY: I ah, yeah I've read that, I've read that too, that he made everybody— JP: Yeah, SY: Everybody from Weimar walked through 12 JP: Yeah, yeah, SY: And that somebody laughed and he made them all do it again actually. JP: Yeah, SY: He made them do a second tour. So did you, did you know what you were walking into before you got there? JP: No, SY: So how did you all figure out what was going on, do you remember your first thoughts? Do you remember what you said to each other? JP: We just couldn't believe it. We couldn't after all we had no knowledge of, you know our communications we had no communications we didn't know about the concentration camps or things like that and there was no newspaper or there was. You just went where you were told you know followed so forth. So I didn't have any particular, I thought it was horrible and just it added to hating the Germans a little more you know? SY: Yeah [coughs] how long were you there? JP: Oh just a matter of hours. SY: Really? JP: Then we moved on, yeah sure. There was nothing for us to do there, they were some of the other, I guess they moved in a soup kitchen and things like that to feed the people who were left and sorted it out, so…. SY: Did any of the inmates speak English? Did you have conversations with any of them? JP: No, no. SY: And the kilns were still hot, did you see smoke or had they…? JP: No they were just hot, they just were cooling down and so forth. They wanted cigarettes the prisoners you know we had cigarettes. We were issued a carton a week of cigarettes and then all the K Rations, these K Rations had five cigarettes in it so when we gave the K Rations they thought that was just unbelievable to have cigarettes. SY: Were they, were they smoking them or trading them? JP: Oh no, strictly smoking them, strictly smoking. SY: So you pulled out of Buchenwald [coughs] and did you talk about with each other? JP: Oh yeah, sure. SY: What you say? Do you remember the conversations? JP: No, not I remember, you know our whole thing was moving on, moving on. When we were, we were in Patton's Army and I remember back in I think in early February we were pulled back from the line and were put through we'd been in the same clothes since December and we obviously all smelled pretty well and what do you when sleep in the—eat, sleep, in the same clothes a lot and they had what they called a13 Shark, shower group and we would rack our equipment our arms and take off all our clothes and heave 'em into a bin and then you'd go into a, they had forty-eight showers set up and you got one minute a rinse, one minute a soap, and one minute a rinse again and that was it. And then you'd… SY: You probably still smelled? JP: Yeah and then you got all new— new clothes and I remember we had a, what would you call it a clipper that you could use in and we'd give each other's haircuts with this clipper to 'cause you know that was the only thing you could do and you know it was easier to have shorter hair under your helmets. SY: So what you do after Buchenwald? JP: Well, we moved on. Did a lot of clean up and with the tanks and so forth and actually we moved up for it and we were ready for a assault crossing, got across the Danube when in May when the war was declared over. So we moved on and they took us into a place called Ejar, E-J-A-R, Czechoslovakia and we built a bridge there over a railroad crossing or something like that, a bridge that would carry the tanks into that and we stayed there and then we were pulled back because the Russians took over that territory. Hey, can you excuse me a minute? I'll be right back. Oral history pauses, with background noise, and then resumes JP: Hi, I'm back, SY: Hi, you're back, JP I'm back, yeah that was quick, SY: Excellent, JP: Too much too much coffee, SY: Too much coffee, I know that problem. Okay, so it seems like we're getting to the end, close to the end of the war. So where were you on VE Day? JP: On VE Day we were in, I think we were in Czechoslovakia. We'd gone there, they stopped the fighting I think on one day and then couple of days later they it was it a fish hole. So we had moved into Czechoslovakia. Then let's see they moved us the Russians came and took over our positions in Czech and we moved back to Austria and actually we moved back and we had a deluxe accommodations which was a guest house which is a small hotel and we took it over and our platoon, and I remember another guy and I actually had a bed to sleep in and we had [airplane flies in background] you know by then they had ah they were set up with a cook, the cooks and all we had meals, real meals and all. SY: How long had it been since you'd slept in a bed? JP: Well [chuckles] a long time I guess since I was in England. SY: Since you were in England, JP: Yeah, SY: Wow. So [coughs] do you remember when, how did you hear that, how did you hear, about, the victory? 14 JP: Oh it came down from our headquarters they came through and told us all about it, you know it would get a platoon of us together and tell us you know the war was basically over as far as we were concerned. SY: And what would you, what did you do? JP: Well we thought that was great. I think we probably drank you know, we confiscated all kinds of wine and beer and liquor and we drank it all up. [chuckles] Yeah so that was it, SY: You probably had a big party, and so then, then what happened? So you know victory's been declared and the war is basically over it's over in Europe and so where'd they send ya? JP: They moved us back to Marcé and there our equipment was checked over. Some of the guys who had the highest points like the fellows who had been in the Aleutians were taken away from our unit and we had replacements come in and they told us basically that we were sailing for the Philippines. So we were actually on the boat, there were four boats in the group I was in. It's started out and I was in the last one to leave and we ran into a bad storm and they put us in back of the Canary Islands for a day that's what I heard anyway for the worst of it to get through and we were in the middle of the ocean when the war in Europe was declared over and but the first three boats in our group went through the Panama Canal to the Philippines and we were diverted into Boston we were had been scheduled to be a part of landing in Tokyo which was scheduled for November 1, 1945. So that we put… SY: And so you heard that the bomb had been dropped while you were on the boat? JP: Yeah, yeah, SY: Yeah and they announced that you? JP: Yeah, yeah, SY: Yeah, and that's why you got diverted to Boston? JP: Yeah, yeah, SY: Were you relieved? JP: Yeah, well in a way, I at the time we knew we were going to the Philippines but we didn't know. It was until fifty years later that we found out that we were part of the landing group into Tokyo. SY: How did you find it out? JP: Well they didn't release those orders until 1995 and a friend of mine who was with the 4th Marine Division who I still talk to he was able to get a hold of the orders and we found out that we were, the Philippines was where the gathering place for the landings were in that's where we were scheduled to go. The guys in…. SY: No idea that you were on your way? JP: No, SY: That's interesting, JP: No, no the guys that went through the canal all the way to the Philippines they ended up playing cards for three months and then they came and brought them back. So…15 SY: And you guys went to Boston, and what was it like when you arrived in Boston? JP: It was nothing we arrived at Boston, we went get—we were I think we took us to Myles Stand—either Myles Standish, or Fort Devens and were given thirty day leave and then we were on leave they gave us another thirty or forty-five days and then they told us to report back to. I was supposed to report back to Devens in the middle of December for discharge and I got back there and they said, "You got the mumps," so I was sent into the hospital and was there for three weeks and then was discharged the first week in January. SY: Was it hard to adjust to life back home? JP: Well it, you know all the guys I knew. Buddies of mine were same age bracket we'd all been in the service together so we you know, we were with them and actually when I got out of the service on a Thursday and my father worked for the Southern New England Telephone Company and he came home on Friday and said, "You have a job starting Monday." So I didn't have, so I worked for the telephone company and I had checked with Norwich and the semester started in February. So I went back to college in February and my, one of my old roommates there, his name was Ken Clary. He and I roomed together until he spoiled it and got married. Yeah and anyway…. SY: What was it like to back at school after having been at war? JP: Well we were, when we came back to Norwich we came back as civilians we did—we were not in uniform. They had a Cadet Corps but as far as we were concerned we were strictly there to complete our education and I lived for a while in one of the dorms and then we I moved I was in SAE and I moved to the SAE House for rest of the time I was there. SY: I've heard from other, from other things from other people and from things I've read that it was, it was kind of, that Norwich didn't seemed to be equipped for returning veterans? JP: No I would say that. They seemed they gave me so much credit so I had only had another year to go and my and they sort of rushed us through to get rid of us I felt. But that's alright. SY: Why do you think they did that? JP: Well they wanted to be back to their Corps of having you know a complete complete military again and that's what I thought anyway. But… SY: Did you consider staying in the military or going back in or were you done after you came back from the war? JP: Well you know my brother was a tail gunner in a B-24 he completed his fifty-six raids or fifty-four and the spring of '45 actually spring of '44 and he had been in same length of time as I had and we thought nah that you know what I was in couldn't couldn't get any better so and we talked about staying in but we both decided on hell with it let's get out of here. So then we did. SY: Yeah, both of you together? JP: Yeah, yeah, SY: So somebody described to me there was a basically like a trailer park off campus, where the vets lived? JP: Maybe they were the married vets but not, 16 SY: Married vets yeah, do you remember that or no? JP: I remember there was a, yeah there was some Quonset huts they built and they put hardwood flooring in them and a guy by the name of Bill Peck who was a friend of mine and I had been in actually he, Bill and I had been in University of Missouri together. Although I don't know where he went after that, he went to an infantry. But he and I went down there looking for a jobs and they said, "Do you know to put in hardwood flooring?" and Bill said, "Oh sure," and he didn't know either that's what we did and that was one of the jobs we had. SY: And that was where the married veterans lived? JK: Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, SY: Hmm…interesting, interesting. So how often do you, did you talk about the war? Did you talk about the war with your friends and family when you came back throughout the rest of your life? Or has it been something you didn't think about that much? JP: I really didn't think about it that much. Sometimes you know, some of it comes back to you but I was able to get it off my mind. I had other things to think about too. SY: Yeah. So tell me briefly about what you did after you graduated from Norwich? JP: Well after I graduated from Norwich, my dad wanted me to work for telephone company and I didn't want to do that 'cause I couldn't stand the manager that I talked to at the Bridgeport office. He had told me how he's start me at a certain salary and after six months I'd be reviewed and all this kind of stuff and be taken care of for the rest of my life. And that didn't appeal to me. And I had an uncle who worked for Hartford Empire who make glass making machinery and as an engineer I had an opportunity to go to Saudi Arabia but that you had to sign a two year contract and I didn't want to do that and actually the fellow that lived across the street from me was a guy by the name of Bob Keeeny, and Bob and I had grown up together from seventh grade or seven-years-old on and he but he had gone. He was going to Wesleyan University and had gone in the V whatever it is program there, had graduated and like June of '45 and then sent to San Diego and he was on the Indianapolis when it was sunk and he died on that. But his father owned this plumbing company, plumbing manufacturing company and he asked me if I wanted to come to work over there so that's where I started working and I started working selling for them and working as their in their sales management group. SY: And then you stayed in sales management for the rest of your career, right? JP: Yeah, well pretty much I went. I left that company and went to Bridgeport Brass Company and here again I was sale manager of the copper water division and the plumbing division and they decided they would move that division from Bridgeport, Connecticut down south for better wages and so forth and so I got to be the manager and we moved the company to Moultrie, Georgia which is fifty miles north of Tallahassee and I went down there with four of the guys we hired, set the company up moved all the machinery down from Bridgeport and hired 300 people. So it was down there for four years and from there I told them you know that I didn't want my kids living in the south. I had three kids and the schools are just, were, the day, the year we got there they added the twelfth grade to the high school and so they offered me a job working out of New York in their international division so I did that for three or four years I forget which yeah. SY: Excellent. So how do you think your time at Norwich influenced your later life? 17 JP: Well it's hard to say. I guess I guess one of the early things that, in Norwich you learned real quick to obey orders and that's one of the things that I [chuckles] kept with me all through the Army and even in business you learn to who is the boss and who is you supposed to tell. Do what they tell you, you know that type of thing. SY: Did you also learn how to be a leader? JP: I would say so, yeah, yeah. SY: And what about this idea of citizen soldier or service, is that something you think about or relate to as you're sort of gone through your life? JP: Well as opposed to the volunteers that they have now you mean? SY: Yeah, I mean I guess it's just—No I mean, not the actually opposed to that, I mean, I guess the premise of the citizen soldier of the founding of the school was the idea of people who were both educated and also in the military. So it's sort of combining the liberal arts, right? With the military training at the same time? JP: Well, I think that's, I think that the military training is something that you'll lives with you the rest of your life. My son's, son or his wife or present wife's has a son who is a senior in high school and thinking about going on to college obviously and he said he'd liked to work in the State Department and I suggested he go to Norwich because you know he would have to complete there and then be in the service for four years. But I thought, I said "that will be the best background you'll ever had for working for the State Department." And but after getting that information and finding that they get up at 5:30 every morning he was no longer interested in that. SY: [laughs] What about as you've gone through your life and watched the U.S. enter into other wars, how do you feel about your war versus the wars that followed? JP: I think our war was very different in that we had sort of lines of demarcation. We knew who the Germans and who were the Allies versus now. They seem to have people coming at 'em from different directions and coming across the Pakistan border and things like that. I think it's a very different, and the method of fighting is very different you know everything is automatic weapons, automatic weapons. We didn't have that stuff, it was more of an individual fight. SY: Hmm…interesting. JP: Yeah, SY: Well I don't' think I have any more questions for you. JP: Okay, SY: Is there anything you want to add in that you didn't get to talk about? JP: No I think we covered everything, yeah. SY: I think we've covered everything. You sound kind of tired too. I'm a little tired, we've been talking for a long time. JP: [laughs] Yeah, no yeah, I see it's almost 11:30 here yeah so. Well I appreciate the invite. How did— SY: Thank you so much for talking. 18 JP: Yeah, are you, will you have a recording of this, is that right? SY: Yeah we'll have a recording of this that we'll send you and then we'll also ah have a transcript that we'll send you. JP: Oh great, great, 'cause my son— SY: Listen to it and then if there's that something factually wrong or something that you want to keep private, you can tell me and then we'll edit that out. JP: Yeah, now— SY: So that's, so you'll getting stuff in the mail from me, JP: Yeah I didn't tell you any of the nasty stuff, so. SY: Oh yeah, why not? JP: Or any of the sexy stuff [laughs] SY: Any of the what? JP: Any of the sexy stuff, SY: Oh well those are all the important stories for oral history, you should tell me some of them now. [laughs] JP: I thought one of the things that was really interesting is that and course we went—and a lot of our training in basic was how to avoid getting social diseases, you know? SY: Right, JP: And the other thing was that the Army seemed to recognize that was the guys all needed to have their sexual relations and in Marcé in the Stars and Stripes they said there's 20,000 pros, plus 7 semi pros and amateurs here in town so. SY: So you guys on your time off would wander into town? JP: It was available yeah, so that's all. No other than that not too much. SY: That sounds great. And it was France? JP: Right, right, SY: Which was exciting for a young American man? JP: Yeah, yeah, SY: Yeah, JP: Right, SY: Yeah, were there any moments when you had real ethical dilemmas? Where you really struggled with something with an order that you didn't want to follow? JP: No, 19 SY: Something like that? No? JP: No, no I didn't have any of that, so. Anyways thank you so much for your interest. SY: Thanks for telling your story, I really appreciate it. JP: Okay, I'll look forward to it hearing from, SY: Okay, alright have a good day, JP: Thank you bye. SY: Bye, bye.

Transcript of an oral history interview with Robert G. Minnis, conducted by Jennifer Payne on 4 October 2013, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Robert Minnis graduated from Norwich University in 1963; the bulk of his interview focuses on Minnis' military career in the U.S. Army as well as his later employment and family life. ; Robert Minnis, NU 1963, Oral History Interview October 4th, 2013 Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Jennifer Payne JENNIFER PAYNE: We can start. This is Jennifer Payne with the Norwich Voices Oral History Project and today's date is October 4th, 2013. I am here with Robert Bob Minnis, Class of '63. Thank you very much for doing this. ROBERT MINNIS: You're welcome. JP: So, did you have a nickname? RM: The yearbook said it was Minnie but I don't remember that. JP: You don't remember. RM: I was called probably other things but Minnie was the name that's in the book. So, I'll go by that. JP: How did you choose Norwich? RM: Senior year in high school, I was ill for the whole month of January and basically almost the day before I graduated class, I was still taking final exams and everything. I got accepted to Northeastern as a conditional student provided I went to summer school. I decided I just busted my gut for four months. I wasn't going to do that. Arrangements were made through my father and I think it was the high school football coach. Anyway, they got me convinced to go to Bridgeton Academy, which was a prep school in Bridgeton, Maine, for a year. I did that. While I was there, I think it was one of the dorm counselors suggested Norwich University maybe as a place to go. I came up here and visited and like it and applied and got accepted. Started in 1959, September, August, September class. JP: Where are you from? RM: I grew up in Weymouth, Massachusetts on South Shore, just south of Boston. JP: When were you born? RM: 1940, but that's classified. JP: Oh. Okay. RM: I tell people I was born before World War II and they kind of look at me. JP: When you came to Norwich, what was your rook experience like? RM: Really, I don't remember a whole lot of it. I was in the I Company, in Alumni Hall, on the second floor. I remember the squad leader, Corporal Zagars, who had quite a reputation, I guess. He was kind of different, not like a lot of the other squad leaders and sometimes he was very nice and other times, he was just mean. At least, we thought he was. Other than that, I don't - other things we used to as freshman, running here and there, squaring corners and that type stuff, I guess. Hasn't probably changed a whole lot but I don't have any specific memories of freshman year, other than the fact that the academic schedule that I had was pre-engineering. I had had in high school and prep school and by the time I got here, I didn't have to spend a whole lot of time studying, so I could go out to the movies two times a week. I was out to the movies two times a week. Basically, I was involved in the rifle team, the drill team, and any extracurricular activity I could get involved in just to help pass time and keep the upper classmen out of my life. JP: Wow. Drill team is a challenge. RM: We had a lot of fun. In fact, probably the best part was, my sophomore year, we got to march in President Kennedy's inauguration parade. JP: You're in that photo. RM: I'm in that photo, front rank or second rank anyway. We had to get dress blues for that. That's the first time dress blues came to Norwich. Originally, it was just going to be the drill team, which was maybe twenty-four members and, I guess, some other people said, "Hey. Why can't I go?" Anybody that had a set of dress blues and wasn't on academic probation, I guess, got to go. We went down there. Took a bus trip down. It was Greyhound, Vermont Transit Bus Line, which I think was a subsidiary of Greyhound. We ended up going down there. We got to D.C. and it was snowing. The bus drivers had no problem with the snow because they drove in it all the time. There were cars all over the place. We stayed at Fort Meade in the barracks that didn't have any heat. You want to talk about, Harry Chebookjian, I think, could probably tell you a few stories about that. But anyway, they finally got the heat going. The next day we went into D.C. and stood in some back street same place for hours it seems in the freezing cold waiting to go on. During the night, apparently they, the Army took all the engineers and anybody around there. They just swept the street clean. Pennsylvania Avenue was bone dry and no snow. Around the capital, I stepped in a puddle of water and it never wet my sock because it was so cold, it froze before I got there. And after that, the parade, we went back, turned our rifles in, and they turned us loose for, I forget, a couple hours. They told us we had to meet the buses at nine o'clock or whatever it was to take us back to Fort Meade. Stayed there overnight and the next day, headed back to school. JP: Do you remember what you did in D.C.? Where you went? RM: Basically walked around, looking at sites. Of course, we had the dress blue uniforms that had the gold stripe on the hat, so we used to see how many West Pointers we could get to salute us. Because they had the funny uniform. To them, a gold stripe was a salute so we obliged. JP: That's great. RM: I don't how long. We walked around D.C. for a couple hours and I don't remember where we went. Just kind of around the parks and the Mall and that type stuff. The dress blues, I still have. When I graduated, they converted them over to the Army. I still can get in them. JP: That's amazing. RM: A little tight, button-wise. I wouldn't want to do any rifle drill with them on but they do fit. JP: That's great. What else do you remember about your Norwich experience? RM: Well, my sophomore year, I was a squad leader in, I think it was A Company. Yeah. Bobby Blake was my roommate and a couple weeks after that, I was transferred over to the military police section. I roomed with Tom Dillard. Basically, any time there was a function on post that they needed a student traffic directions and escort and this and that, I did that for the whole year. We went to Middlebury or Vermont? One of the football games we went to, the captain was in charge of the MPs. We get up there. As soon as the game was over, he says, "Get rid of your whites," which was a hat cover and a scarf. He says, "Get out of here because you don't want to be known as…" We all bounced in the car. There was a bunch of us. I forget what transportation it was and left very quickly because there was a little bit of rivalry between us. JP: Was that the game where Middlebury won by the fifth down? RM: I don't remember the details. It may have been. Maybe that's what caused the commotion afterwards. I don't know. I don't remember. It's just too long. It was fifty-two years ago, or three years ago, over fifty. JP: You talked about General Harmon's car. What was the story? RM: Was the football game. It was sophomore year. I was in the MPs and we stood around the, the press box and Harmon, General Harmon and General I.D. White was sitting there. They were usually raising hell, like they always did, telling stories and swearing at this and that. We had male cheerleaders at the time. They were pointing out the various problems and things that they weren't doing right. So anyway, they're getting ready, I think it was for the opening ceremony. The tank [Unintelligible] came up. It was on the left side of the bleachers, facing the field. The General's car was in the way. So he said, "Move my, Corporal, come. Move my car." Okay. So, I get in it and I couldn't find the starter. It was one of those cars. It was buried underneath the pedal and I didn't know better. My roommate, Tom Dillard, was aware of this and I said, "Tom." He told me where it was so I got the car started. I moved it out of the way. Then, the tank came and fired the round. It did what it had to do. I was there for a couple minutes looking all over the place for the starter button. It didn't work with the key or anything. I remember, he used to come to the mess hall and occasionally tell a story or two. Probably can't be repeated in most company. Freshmen week, Parents' Weekend, they'd always serve steak. We never got it but they always had it on Parents' Weekend. He'd come in and he'd talk to them. Basically, he'd say, "If you don't like this place, you can get the hell out of it." He was a good old guy. He was a lot of fun to be with. He always stuck up for the Corps. If there was a problem in Northfield or Montpelier or wherever it was, I guess the story was where he'd send the tanks or the Corps or somebody in to rescue the people that go in trouble. He didn't take any B.S. from the townies. I guess he's got his own legacy and story. I also read his book afterwards, "Battle Commander," I think. He was a colorful guy. In fact, when we were going through, looking for picture for the reunion, there's a picture of me and General Harmon onstage that I guess is [Unintelligible] the Army. I couldn't remember what the thing was. So I sent it into Nate Palmer, who was the secretary of the reunion committee. He says, "That was graduation and you." Okay. There was nothing written on the back of the photo. I just had a mental blank as to what the picture was. Other than that, Harmon was a colorful character. I can't remember any other stories. I'm sure there's several. JP: So, your major was? RM: I started off mechanical engineer and changed over to sophomore year to engineering management and that was my degree, engineering management. I don't think they have it here now or maybe they call it something different but for a long time, it dropped out of the curriculum. Basically it was the basic engineering courses, Chemistry, Physics, Math, and then, Economics and English added on to it. It was kind of a mix. JP: Business and engineering. RM: Yeah. Right. It was kind of the happy road between the two of them. It worked well because I liked the construction part of it. When I was active duty, that's what I did. JP: What did you do after graduation? RM: I got immediate commission and I reported ninety days after commissioning. I had a summer job for ten weeks and a week on either end of it. I worked for a neighbor's dad basically just to kill time because I knew I was going to the Service. Then, the day came, I reported in to Fort Belvoir, went to the Basic Officer's Course. The day we signed out, President Kennedy was assassinated. JP: Oh my. RM: So, I ultimately decided, "Get out of D.C. because you don't want to get stuck down here." I went home. I watched all the proceedings on television. I got to Europe a couple weeks after that, was the middle of December. The people over in France in the bars were still buying free drinks. You couldn't buy a drink, in honor of President Kennedy. I got to march in his parade. After graduation from college here, my roommate, Jim Andrews, his dad had a place in the Cape, Camp Edwards, which was an Air Force base. His dad had a house there. When Kennedy flew in to Hyannis, the airplane was parked at Edwards Air Force Base. When I went to Jim's cottage that day, there was a bunch of people there. They were introducing me. They were the crew that flew on Air Force One. So we're getting ready to leave. They say, "Hey. You want to see Air Force One?" I got an escorted tour of Air Force One. We drove up and the guard was saying, recognized the driver of the jeep. "Nah," he said, walked up. There was one guard, I think, one or two guards out there. Walked up. Got a tour of the plane for, went all the way to the back. JP: Wow. RM: I sat in the, picked up the telephone, called my folks and said, "Hey! Guess where I am?" JP: Did you really? RM: Got a package of cigarettes and a book of matches and I forget what else they gave you. Yeah, so I got the tour of Kennedy's airplane. It was a 707. A couple weeks later, I was down at Fort Belvoir. JP: Doing? RM: It was a Basic Officer's Course. JP: Where did you go from there? RM: I had orders to France as a bachelor. I was supposed to be in for two years. People are trying to woo you with all this, "Sign up for three years. You can go take your family to it." I wasn't married, so I didn't care. I liked France. It sounded good to me, so I was going. I did have a little French in high school which was, I figure, maybe some help. We went, landed, we took off from Dix, no, McGuire Air Force Base in Canadian airplane. When I walked out of the airplane, the tail was open. That's how they're putting in the luggage. I go flying across the Atlantic Ocean and pray that the tail won't open up. We landed in France, in Paris, and I was supposed to get off there. There was two other people in the airplane going to the same outfit I was. The Air Force saw that I was supposed to be assigned to Phalsbourg, France, which was up on the German border. They said, "No. You stay on the airplane." I was one of the last people off because I was sitting in the back. They said, "No." [Unintelligible] "Already taken care of. We put it back on the airplane. Just go back and sit down." I said, "What do I do when I get to Germany?" They said, "Well, go to the tower and they'll get you a ride and take you in to France." About a couple hours later, it was dark by this time. Landed at Rhine-Main and they got this poor E-1 airman out of bed some place. He'd look as though he'd been ridden hard. He was awake enough to drive us and he drove down, went into France. Crossed the border. They waved us on through because it was a military vehicle. They dropped me off at the orderly room where the company, it was already eight or nine o'clock at night, and everybody says, "Where were you? They've been looking all over for you." Because they thought I was coming in to Paris. They made a few telephone calls and told the battalion commander that I had arrived. They recalled all the vehicles. The next morning I got up, put on a set of fatigues and went to work. JP: Your job was? RM: I was a platoon leader in the construction battalion. I had my own little mini-construction company. I had five dump trucks, a crane, air compressor, trailers, forty people including carpenters, masons, electricians, plumbers, heavy equipment operators. I often thought if I could retire from the army, I wouldn't need to retire with pay. Just give me the construction platoon that I had. And all kinds of tools, you know. You need tools and it came in a box I had probably. JP: What did you build? RM: First thing I had to build was four pre-fab metal buildings for ammunition storage for the Air Force. That was at Phalsbourg, where I was stationed. After that, they got sent to Reims Air Force Base in France. They were doing an asphalt project there and I was told to go study it because I was going to do an asphalt project in Chateraux in the Loire Valley. So, I went down there a few weeks ahead of time and designed an asphalt mix and got all the pieces and parts I needed. I ordered the amount of gravel and the right quantities and sizes. Then they sent me an asphalt plant from like a twenty truck convoy. They assembled it, put it together, we started making asphalt, and we repaired the runways and the shattered roof of the C141 aircraft that was coming in to the inventory. Had to replace some concrete and over pave it. JP: Wow. RM: There was also a French aircraft repair company there. They were repairing Air Force 101s and 100 jets. Those guys used to take off all the time and buzz my equipment operators that were driving on the field. After I was there for eight, nine months, the battalion commander called an officer's call for New Year's Eve. Because we were stationed all over the place at separate places, we had to get, we collected TDY to go to the battalion commander's officer's call. So, I went to the Etain Air Force Base, where the battalion commander was. Platoon sergeant took my platoon and the rest of the equipment and went back to Phalsbourg. We married up, I think it was the Second or Third of January, when I got back. After that, summer in the Loire Valley was beautiful, wine country, gorgeous weather, all the chateaus. Then, I went back to Germany, back to France. That time, de Gaulle threw the American forces out. I went PCS to Germany with the unit but because I had two year obligation, I had to extend for a year to go with the unit. When I extended, I was able to go France. Otherwise, they would have sent me back and given me TDY or stuck me someplace for two or three months. We got to Phalsbourg, I mean, to [Unintelligible] and set up shop there. We were there for almost a whole year. A couple projects, we had to build ammunition storage facilities and the great, big, huge butler buildings for the pre-fab equipment that the Army had stationed over there. They'd fly the people over, put them in the new trucks and tanks and stuff if they ever had a problem with the Russians. Then, in, was it June or July of '66, I got orders to Vietnam as a captain. I was still a First Lieutenant so I got promoted. On the way back, they sent me to Fort Belvoir to a Facility Management course. When I got to Vietnam, the typical story was engineer lieutenants, you don't stay in the repo depot very long. You get hauled off to someplace else. I was in the replacement company for six or seven days. One day, a lieutenant colonel and an Army major, WAC, showed up in a fancy black sedan and said, "Come with us." And I went to Saigon, where I was in the facility of engineers, planned a construction order of materials, coordinate, and all of that stuff. Making sure the painters didn't go in and paint the wall before the carpenters went in, tore a hole, and put a doorway in. I was getting ready to come home and I had one last time as duty officer, which was on the 28th, that was the night of TET, '68. I was the duty officer on Headquarters Area Command, not very far from Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base. JP: Oh my. What was that like? RM: Busy. JP: Really? RM: Yeah. There was a sergeant there. He, about midnight, come in and woke me up, got me out of the chair. I was sitting in the back office and said, "Sir, I think you better come out there and see what's going on." He was so nervous because he only had three days left in country. He couldn't hear me, telephone shaking so bad, he had to set it on the table. So I spent the rest of the night, answering telephone calls, trying to coordinate this and that, writing the duty officer's log. The biggest thing, the relief called, was trying to get into the embassy, was getting shot at by the MPs that were in there. I finally get a hold of them. I said, "You guys are asking for ammunition." I said, "There's a truck outside with ammunition. Just don't keep shooting at it." I guess they got their ammunition all right. The rest of the staff showed up fairly early in the morning. By eleven o'clock, I'd finished writing all the stuff that I remembered on the report. They said, "Okay. You can go. So, I left. Went and got my jeep. Went across the street and got something to eat. Then, headed back to the compound because facility was on the other side of Saigon in the Cholon section. I was going over there and there was actually nobody in the street. The Vietnam, Saigon was never, never deserted. Even at midnight, there was thousands of people. Anyway, I'm in convoy with three APCs and I crossed each other at thirty-five miles an hour. Neither one of us slowed down or anything. I just went back to the compound, turned in my jeep, turned in my weapon, and then went back to BOQ and got a couple hours sleep because I hadn't gotten much that night. Then, went back to the office and started doing facilities work again, taking fuel for the generators and all the BOQs and water to the mess halls and fixing what we could. The thousand-member workforce that we had disappeared. It was something like three or four officers and, I don't know, ten to twelve NCOs that did the work for that week, did emergency repairs, not routine stuff. Then, about three weeks after that, I went home. JP: Wow. Heck of a note to go out on. RM: Yeah. It was nice to leave. From there, I went back to the Advanced Course at Fort Belvoir. When I graduated from that, there was supposed to be a very short turnaround for engineers, for any officer going back to Vietnam. To kill time, I taught Demolition Mine Warfare, down at the engineer school for a few months. And then, one day, I got a call to report to the headquarters, personnel section. They told me I was going to become the post-chemical officer. Because the day before, the chemical officer that was there was getting out of the service and they didn't have a replacement. The fact that I'd been to a chemical school in Germany three years, four years before that, I was the most qualified guy on post. I went, over my objection, but they said, "Forget that." I took the job and I went in there and just basically sat back and let the NCOs run the place. I ran cover for them. A year later, I was on orders to go back to Vietnam and all I had to do was pick up my 201 file and my personnel records, finance records. I got a call from my mother saying, "People at assignments branch are looking for you," because they thought I was home on leave. I call them and they said, "Guess what, Captain? You're not going to Vietnam!" Oh, ho, ho. Yeah. You date the President's daughter, you might get a chance to get out of it. Anyway, I went over. I told my boss, [Unintelligible] I said, "Hey. Guess what? Somebody's playing a joke on me. Yeah. I'm not going to Vietnam." He made a few phone calls. He says, "That's right. You're not going to Vietnam." I got to stay another whole year at Fort Bellvoir. JP: Wow. RM: When I eventually did go back to Vietnam, in Christmas of '70, Christmas of '70, New Year's Eve '71, I got sent to a place called Phan Thiet [??], the construction battalion. I was the company commander there for three months and then I was the, we built roads, bridges, that type stuff. Ran our own asphalt plant. Then, I became the operations officer for the unit there. I stayed there until December, early December '71, when they had already started letting people out of Vietnam. I got an early drop by a week and they let me come home early. JP: By a week. RM: By a week. From there, I was supposed to be assigned to, what was it, Army Materiel? No. I was supposed to be assigned to Fort Belvoir. I went into Fort Belvoir and this snotty little attendant, basically Army Readiness Region 1. He says, "When you get here, we'll take care of it." I says, "What am I going to be doing?" He says, "I don't know. Worry about that when you get here." I go over to assignment and say, "I don't want to go there. You got anything else?" They sent me to Army Materiel Command as a project officer. I was there for three years almost. Yeah. That's where I was when we got married. Three years and after I got married, I was going to buy a house. I couldn't find an apartment for my dog. So, we ended up buying a house. They told me I was going to be, "You have to call me to get out of this place." Six months later, they send me orders to [Unintelligible] region, up at Fort Devens. I said, "Hey. You told me." "Well. Sorry. Priority is the Army." I rented the house out and ten years later, when I retired, we went back to it. After I went to Devens for three years, I went to Fort Richardson, Alaska for three years. Then, Fort Leavenworth for three years. That's where I ended my career. JP: How many years were you in, total? RM: Twenty years, one month, and twenty-three days. JP: But who's counting? RM: Yeah, but who's counting? JP: That's amazing. RM: Yeah. The day I signed in the Advanced Course was the day Martin Luther King was assassinated. JP: Wow. RM: We didn't go to downtown D.C. for several weeks. JP: No. RM: That was basically it. After I retired, I got a job with the United Services Automobile Association as a facilities specialist working at their office in Reston, Virginia. About a year and a half to two years later, my boss was offered a retirement under accelerated retirement package, which he took. I got promoted into his job. Moved the office from Merrifield, Virginia to Reston, Virginia. Built a second building and ultimately, retired as the Director of Facilities and Services. JP: Wow. RM: In fact, I was in charge of mail room, mess hall, security, facilities. There was probably something else. That was the person that worked in the Aramark office under the Aramark contract as the bookkeeper. JP: And that is your wife, who's here? RM: Yes. For three years, we ate lunch together. JP: That's sweet. RM: U.S.A.A. moved the officer from Reston, Virginia. They closed it. They offered me a job in Norfolk, Virginia. I said, "No. I don't want that." The kids told me I could go if I want to but they were going to stay behind. They had a place that they could stay, the neighbor across the street. I said, "No. I'll take an early retirement, a retirement." The day I moved into the building, it snowed and the day I left, it snowed. I kicked around for a little bit of time, working on a job. In fact, I went at work. After I left U.S.A.A., I went back at work for Aramark as an hourly employee, washing dishes, serving food, preparing food, cash register. I did anything and everything they needed. I worked there for about three months. When they closed the building, we had a farewell party. I was third from last out of the building. I was one of the first people in. Fourteen years of time was first and last. Then, I kicked around for a few months, working for Home Depot and places like that. I got a call from a friend of mine that was in the facility management business. He said, "George Washington University is looking for a facilities person. You might want to do down and talk to them. I went down and talked to them, Monday or Tuesday. Was hired that week. Went to work the following week. They sent me out to Loudoun, Virginia where the campus was. PSINet had owned the building. Had gone bankrupt. GW had bought it and had leased it back to PSINet. PSINet wasn't clearing the building like they were supposed to. So, they sent me out. They said, "Throw them out." I threw them out. Locked the door. Changed the locks and they never came back. I was out there for eight years before they told me my job was going to be transferred from Virginia down to district. I told my boss, I said, "I'll come down here for meeting but I'm not coming down here every day to work." I said, "I'll just tell you right now. Sometime this year, I'm going to retire and I'll tell you two weeks before the day I walk out." That's exactly what I did. We knew we were coming down to Virginia. Both my girls went to UVA. They were both working at UVA and both living in the Charlottesville area. We decided, "Let's go down there where they are." We bought the house. I retired. We moved the stuff down from the house in Virginia. We've been in Charlottesville for three and a half years. JP: Wow. This is the house you bought for the dog? RM: Yes. [MRS. ROBERT MINNIS]: No. RM: Wait. No. [MM]: That was when we first married. The dog was a Labrador retriever, seventy five pounds. Most apartments only let twenty to thirty pounds so we had to buy a house. RM: And the dog went with us the whole time we were in the service and even moved down to Virginia with us when we retired. He ended up with hip dysplasia, cancer problems and we had to – [MM]: He was fifteen. The house we first bought when we were married, we rented it out for ten years. We came back when he retired from the Army and we occupied it for three years, but then we sold it when his company moved out to Reston, Virginia. RM: I got tired of commuting. [MM]: We had twenty four years in that house before we moved down to Charlottesville, Virginia area. UVA is the University of Virginia, which you're always saying all these spots that you were stationed in, but if you're not in the military, you wouldn't know necessarily [Unintelligible]. Not everybody would know. JP: This class, I'll tell you. I know places in Vietnam I didn't a week ago. RM: Phan Thiet, that's where I was stationed in 1971, just a little village town on the coast. Had gorgeous white beaches. You'd die for a white beach like that, white beach sand. It was supposedly the nuc mong capital of the world. Do you know what nuc mong is? JP: No. RM: They take fish and they boil the fish all in crocs and they let it rot. They drain off the fluid and that's like vitamins, fish oil, vitamin stuff. It stinks. There was a story about one guy, came back from Vietnam. He was Special Forces. He had a bottle of this stuff. The customs agent said, "Open it." He said, "No. You don't want me to do that." The guy insisted so he opened the thing up and they almost had to evacuate the terminal. I was there a whole year, building roads, bridges, ran a construction project, asphalt plant, rock quarry, fleets of dump trucks, and everything else. It was basically a little construction company. Whisky Mountain was the site that we stayed at. Gorgeous sunsets. [Unintelligible] you could watch the sun go down over the hills. It was beautiful. Anyway, that was it. JP: Wow. What advice would you give to a rook today on how to survive and thrive the way you have? RM: Oh boy. Hundreds of people have done it before you. You're not the only one that thought about leaving or getting out or whatever the case may be. Just stick with it. Rely on your classmates and hang in there. It all usually works out. JP: What would your life had been like if you hadn't gone to Norwich? RM: Don't know. JP: You don't know. RM: I haven't the foggiest idea what it would be. I don't even know what I would have done for a job. When I got into the Army, I liked it. They take pretty good care of you. I got to travel a lot of places around the world, England, Austria. Every trip to Vietnam was four airplane rides. It was a different route. I got to Hawaii one time for forty-five minute refueling stop. I hit the Philippines, Guam, Wake, Taiwan, Japan. If there was a landing field in the Pacific, I was probably on it for some period of time. The last trip, coming back, I went through Alaska in December in a short sleeve, khaki shirt. It was something like twenty below zero. JP: Oh my. RM: It was a quick trip from the airplane to the terminal. I greeted the polar bear that was there and went back and saw him three years later. They have a great big, huge, Alaskan Kodiak bear stuffed in the lobby of the airport lobby. It was one of the biggest ones on record that somebody killed. We went back to Alaska, the station up there for three years. Saw the airport. The bear was there. [MM]: The Aleutian Islands. RM: I made it to Attu, which is the end of the Aleutian Islands. [Unintelligible] a little bit of travelling. JP: A little bit. [MM]: Salmon fishing. Gold panning. RM: That was in Alaska. Drove almost every kind of military vehicle that was in the inventory up to the time I retired, including a lot of construction equipment. JP: Oh, wow. Cranes, everything. Wow. RM: Yep. I had a paver, ran one of those, rollers. I had a crane operator who was a Native American. He could do things to that crane that most people can't even do with their hands. He'd pick something up. He'd drop exactly, you'd tell him you want it right here. That's exactly where it went. It was all just smooth, fluid motion. The guy, it was unbelievable. JP: Wow. RM: Anyway, that's my story. JP: Is there anything else you'd like to add? Any – RM: Nothing that I can think of right now. [MM]: Come back in ten years. (Laughs.) JP: Thank you. RM: You're welcome. Glad I could. Hopefully, it will benefit somebody and they'll get some history out of it. While I was in the Corp, we never did cover that too much, my sophomore year, I went to the MPs and that's where General Harmon and I met. In the meantime, I was in drill team and I was on the rifle team. The rifle team travelled all over New England. They didn't have vans in those days so we got to drive our own cars, so we got paid mileage for it. We'd put three or four guys in a car. The drill team, where did we go? Other than the inauguration parade, Lexington, Concord, and several other places around here. There's also a plaque up in Jackman from the Lexington/Concord parade, commemorating thirty-five years of participation. I didn't realize they'd done it that often. [Unintelligible] I don't think I'll tell the story about the panty raid. JP: Do you have a story about the panty raid? RM: No. I didn't. After the – [MM]: I wouldn't give names. RM: After the dinner, I left and came back here. JP: After the – RM: After the party, yeah. JP: General Burchhar [??] RM: I don't remember what the general's name was. He was a lieutenant general. I know that. He had a few too many, from what I remember. Anyway, I come back here and I started hearing all these things and people started drifting in. The TAC officers were running around here, trying to figure out what's going on and catch people. I basically tried to keep them away from the people that were coming in. It was an interesting night. There was a lot of people that ended up with a few tours and a few demerits because of that. While I was here, I only walked one tour. JP: Really? RM: Only one. JP: One tour. RM: Yep. My squad leader, freshman year, I get almost to, it was in spring time, he said, "Minnis, I don't think you've had too many demerits and tours." I said, "No. I haven't, sir." He said, "Well, you get one now." I had to march one. JP: Because you didn't have one? RM: Well, I think twelve was the cutoff. He gave me a couple to make it thirteen for some stupid reason. I don't even remember what it is. Yeah. I walked one. Other than that, I can't think of anything else, unless you got something specific. JP: I heard a story about General Harmon and somebody and a honey wagon, a manure spreader. Did you hear about that story? RM: No. It may have been before my time. I don't recall that. No. Maybe just ask around. It sounds interesting. JP: Yes. Apparently, somebody took manure spreader where his car normally parked and – RM: Nobody owned up to it. JP: Nobody knew what to do, but he knew what to do. He walked through it and then stamped his feet clean and said, "Sir, gentlemen, I expect you to follow me." RM: That sounds like Ernie. He used to stand up, I don't know what, I think it was in the mess hall [Unintelligible]. There used to be a raised platform that the cadet officers sat on. He'd come in there periodically and tell you, you'd see about this much of him over the platform edge. He was kind of short. Well-respected, but anyway, that's all I got. JP: Oh. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. RM: Yeah. [MM]: [Unintelligible] to talk about? RM: The National Model Railroad Association, it took me almost fifteen years to get the certificate, from the time I started to the time I finished. Even when I was in the service, I used to build models and put them in boxes and store them in trunks and stuff. It wasn't until, when I was in Alaska, we met, there was a modular group up there. I got to know them and several people. In fact, there's an adjacent story to that. There was several people in the military that used to participate in it. We decided we'd form a club between the Air Force and the Army up there in Alaska. We built some modules. We were just getting ready to put scenic and track and stuff on them and everybody got orders. They all left. I was the last one to leave so I ended up with all the modules. I took them to Fort Leonard Wood and packed them away in a shed for three years. Then when I retired, I moved here and the president of the division in D.C., Potomac division, asked me one day. He says, "I hear you've got modules." I said, "Yeah. I do." I told him what I had. He said, "Would you be interested in showing them at the Children's Museum in D.C.?" I said, "Sure." We got together. There was six of us. We took the modules and put scenery and track on them. We went down to the Children's Museum in D.C. and displayed there before Christmas. Then, a little later on after the first of the year, I got a call from Fairfax Station Train Museum. It's the actual station that the Southern Railroad had and they've got pictures of that station in use in the Civil War. It was used as for wounded, both North and South. Clara Barton started the Red Cross in that vicinity. She was one of the people that worked the wounded there, helped them. This guy calls me up and says, "In December, we want to have a train show, as a fundraiser. Are you interested in participating?" I said, "Yes." I've already done twenty-three of them. [MM]: In the same location. RM: Same location. The Southern Railroad sold the station to a group of interested people for a buck, but the provision was that they had to move it. They disassembled it, moved it up, acquired a piece of land, had the high school, trade school in Fairfax County rebuild it, board for board, put it all back together again. Replaced the bad stuff and that type of thing. Every single December, first weekend of December since, I don't know, twenty-four years' worth this year, they have a train show. They set up and they show the display inside, a Lionel display, a Gauge One which is bigger than Lionel. Then, there's an S Scale rail. They have a caboose outside that the N Scale people set up in. The people with the G Gauge, which are the garden stuff, the stuff that runs outside set up underneath around [Unintelligible] A couple years, it snowed. They put snow plows on the engines and cleared the track. JP: Really? RM: Yeah. After I retired and moved down here, I gave up the membership. [MM]: Down here means to central Virginia. You're up in Vermont right now. RM: When I retired from D.C. and moved to Virginia, Charlottesville, I said, "I want" – because I basically started this group – "I want the right to come back every Christmas show for as long as I want to do it. I reserve three spaces in the set up." They said, "Okay." The first week in December, Saturday morning, I pack up and drive up, two and half, three hours and set up. Come back Sunday afternoon. In fact, one year, the public was there and the display – The power went out. This guy, Clem Clemmons, who was basically retired Air Force, said, "What are you running?" I said, "Six volt D.C." He says, "I got a battery in my Packard outside that's six volt D.C." He ran an extension cord out, wrapped some wires around the terminals and wires around the other end and we ran trains in the darkened room with only the red light and the caboose. JP: That must have been magical. RM: He even wrote an article in a national magazine about it. JP: Wow. RM: It's three o'clock. I think that's it for now. JP: Thank you. RM: You're welcome. JP: That was amazing. [End of interview.]

In the present essay, I will examine the traces of coexistence between the Muslim and Christian world in architecture and literature, using the examples of the mezquita, or 'mosque', and the most important novel of Spain, Don Quixote of la Mancha (1605;1615) by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. This study incorporates an interdisciplinary approach that utilizes historical, literary, and architectural methods to explain the dual function of the margin— its architectural function in the Mosque and its narrative function as used in specific chapters from Cervantes's novel. Furthermore, I will show how the architectural margin of the wall of the mosque was familiar to Cervantes's readers who lived in Spain and this familiarity allows Cervantes to exploit the metaphorical meaning of the literary margin as architectural margin. A metaphor establishes an equivalency between a pair of images; the best-known example of which belongs to Ezra Pound, the founding leader of Imagism (1912-1923). This is a school of poetry that endorsed clarity of expression and simplicity through the use of precise visual imagery. The best known metaphor is Pound's own, in which faces are compared with petals in the poem, "In a Station of the Metro": The apparition of these faces in the crowd: Petals on a wet, black bough. Through his architectural and literary metaphor, Cervantes covertly expresses his personal beliefs about multiculturalism that could not be directly expressed for fear of censorship by the Inquisition. ; Winner of the 2020 Friends of the Kreitzberg Library Award for Outstanding Research in the Senior Arts/Humanities category. ; In the Margins of Literary and Architectural Discourse: A Comparison of Arabic Commentary in Cervantes's Don Quixote and Moorish Architectural Inscription Pablo Picasso: Don Quixote, August 10, 1955. Internet: Public Domain Alexandra Parent SP 415: Seminar on Don Quixote Professor Stallings-Ward 28 February 2020 1 Introduction The history of the Iberian Peninsula is a rich one, filled with influences from the entire European and Asian continents over time. When we think about Spain, there is one defining factor that distinguishes her from the rest of Europe: the presence of racial, ethnic and religious influence from Africa, and, resulting therefrom, a unique moment in world history: the confluence of three major world religions in one geographical place. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam once flourished side by side in mutual tolerance and economic interdependence in the Andalusian region of southern Spain, known as 'Al-Andalus,' in the High Middle Ages. Tolerance of others who are different, as Maria Rosa Menocal points out, is the underpinning of this unique historical coincidence and the essential component for the development of science, philosophy, medicine, urbanization, and hence trade and commercial prosperity.1 The Jews and Christians of Muslim Andalusia flourished economically and culturally under the Umayyad, whose dynasty (661-750) was transplanted from Damascus to Cordoba by Abd al-Rahman (756- 1031) after a civil war between two rival Caliphates. These three religions borrowed language and architecture from one another leaving traces of their coexistence, not surprisingly, within the architecture and literature of Spain. In the present essay, I will examine the traces of coexistence between the Muslim and Christian world in architecture and literature, using the examples of the mezquita, or 'mosque', and the most important novel of Spain, Don Quixote of la Mancha (1605;1615) by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. This study incorporates an interdisciplinary approach that utilizes historical, literary, and architectural methods to explain the dual function of the margin— its architectural function in the Mosque and its narrative function as used in specific chapters from Cervantes's 1 Menocal, The Ornament of the World. 2 novel. Furthermore, I will show how the architectural margin of the wall of the mosque was familiar to Cervantes's readers who lived in Spain and this familiarity allows Cervantes to exploit the metaphorical meaning of the literary margin as architectural margin. A metaphor establishes an equivalency between a pair of images; the best-known example of which belongs to Ezra Pound, the founding leader of Imagism (1912-1923). This is a school of poetry that endorsed clarity of expression and simplicity through the use of precise visual imagery. The best- known metaphor is Pound's own, in which faces are compared with petals in the poem, "In a Station of the Metro": The apparition of these faces in the crowd: Petals on a wet, black bough.2 Through his architectural and literary metaphor, Cervantes covertly expresses his personal beliefs about multiculturalism that could not be directly expressed for fear of censorship by the Inquisition. My essay is divided in three sections. In the first section, I will present a historical overview of Muslim presence in the Iberian Peninsula. In the second section, I present a survey of Muslim Architecture in Andalusia based on the results of a photographic study of architecture I did while visiting Spain during study abroad. I survey the presence of Muslim architecture found throughout Andalusia, placing particular emphasis on the function of the margin in the design of the walls of the mosque reserved for the calligraphy that features citations of scripture from the Holy Koran. The margin, although small in size compared to the rest of the entire structure of the mosque, is as I will show, actually the most important part of the mosque. In the third section of my essay, I analyze the literary margin treated in the episode of the lost manuscript in Volume I: Chapters Eight and Nine of Cervantes's Don Quixote. I will look at 2 Judith Stallings-Ward, Gerardo Diego´s Creation Myth of Music: Fábula de Equis y Zeda. London: Routledge, 2020, 175. 3 the coexistence of the Christian and Arab writers in Cervantes's Don Quixote. The collaboration between Cervantes and Cide Hamete Benengeli allows Cervantes to establish a metaphor between the architectural margin of the mosque and the literary margin of the manuscript as the place for covertly expressing his esteem for multiculturalism and his condemnation of the expulsion of the Moors by national decree; a ploy he uses to escape censorship by the Inquisition. The play with spatial perspective (margin vs center) and the severance of the manuscript (with the lost section recovered in the market of Toledo) establishes the architectural and narrative metaphor that recalls the physical and cultural coexistence between Muslims and Christians valued by Cervantes. In addition, I examine how Cervantes extends this metaphor to also evoke the rupture of that coexistence through expulsion of the Moors, which Cervantes believed broke the backbone of the country. Part I: Historical Overview of Muslim Presence in the Iberian Peninsula The invasion of the Iberian Peninsula began with one young man named Abd Al- Rahman, the son of the Arab family ruling Damascus in the east—the Umayyads. However, during a civil war, his family was massacred, and his escape left him the sole survivor. He fled through North Africa into Cordoba where he began to establish himself as the Caliph, or ruler.3 After the Visigoth monarchy fell, Muslim control dominated the Iberian Peninsula. From 711 through 1492, Islamic society had a long and profound presence on shaping Spanish culture until the Christian kings unified the country. By 716, almost all of Iberia, with the exception of the far northwest and mountainous regions, was under Muslim control and the province was name 'Al- Andalus'. By naming the country in this manner, it directly opposes the 'Hispania' title that the 3 BBC Worldwide Learning, The Moorish South: Art in Muslim and Christian Spain from 711-1492. 4 Romans gave the peninsula, foreshadowing the enmity between the religions of Islam and Christianity.4 Abd Al-Rahman sought to recreate his cultural roots here in Iberia. The peninsula was dominated by the Umayyad dynasty, who had no affiliation to the eastern Muslim dynasties at the time, and were met with little to no resistance from the small groups of Christians still living in the peninsula. As demonstrated in Figure 1, the conquering forces came through Northern Africa and thus were also comprised of Berber forces from that region. By 741, there were approximately 12,000 Berber forces, 18,000 Arabs, and 7,000 Syrians entering through the Southern tip of the peninsula. This totaled anywhere from 4,000,000 to 8,000,000 living in the Iberian Peninsula at the time.5 6 Islam and Christianity under Islamic Rule By the mid eighth century, the population of Iberia had grown exponentially and became more diverse both racially and religiously. Although Muslim forces had conquered what remained of the Visigoth territories and established themselves as the dominant, ruling power, a 4 O'Callaghan, A History of Medieval Spain, 91. 5 Phillips and Phillips, A Concise History of Spain. 6 Alchetron.com. "Umayyad Conquest of Hispania - Alchetron, the Free Social Encyclopedia," August 18, 2017. https://alchetron.com/Umayyad-conquest-of-Hispania. Figure 1: Depiction of the route of Abd-Al Rahman and the subsequent conquests of the Muslim Empire. From Internet: public domain.6 5 majority of the population living in Iberia was still Christian. This undoubtedly posed issues for the Moorish rulers who practiced Islam. As a result, conversion became a necessity for Christians. It is important to distinguish between the upper and lower class when discussing the notion of conversion. Many Visigoth royalty, nobles, and influential families saw it in their best interest to convert and to do what they could to join the new rulers in an effort to pursue political advantages.7 Yet, the majority of Iberia was home to lower class Hispano-Roman Christians who converted out of survival. Despite this, many of the people in this situation retained their Christian faith while adopting Muslim customs like learning Arabic so as to appease the rulers. The name given to these people are mozárabes, or 'Mozarabs', meaning 'Muslim-like'.8 A Christian writer noted the following about Christians living under Islamic rule in 854: Our Christian young men, with their elegant airs and fluent speech, are showy in their dress and carriage, and are famed for the learning of the gentiles; intoxicated with Arab eloquence they greedily handle, eagerly devour, and zealously discuss the books of the Chaldeans (i.e. Muhammadans), and make them known by praising them with every flourish of rhetoric, knowing nothing of the beauty of the Church's literature, and looking down with contempt on the streams of the Church that flow forth from Paradise ; alas ! The Christians are so ignorant of their own law, the Latins pay so little attention to their own language, that in the whole Christian flock there is hardly one man in a thousand who can write a letter to inquire after a friend's health intelligibly, while you may find a countless rabble of kinds of them who can learnedly roll out the grandiloquent periods of the Chaldean tongue. They can even make poems, every line ending with the same letter, which displays high flights of beauty and more skill in handling metre than the gentiles themselves possess.9 It is evident from this passage that the Christians admired the Arabs for the type of civilization they created. The Mozarabs recognized that the Arabs had something to offer them in terms of literature, character, and even language. This demonstrates that on some level, there was an 7 Phillips and Phillips, A Concise History of Spain. 8 Phillips and Phillips. 9 Alvar, Indiculus luminosus; quoted from Arnold, The Preaching of Islam; A History of the Propagation of the Muslim Faith, 137-138. 6 acceptance of Muslim culture and practices which set the foundation for the incorporation of Islamic architectural styles and writing styles to be continued after the Christians' reconquering of Iberia. Christian Kingdoms and "La Reconquista" When the Muslim forces conquered Iberia, they were not able to infiltrate the regions in the north. These regions were not seen as an apparent threat because they were isolated, poor, and not heavily populated, so the Moors did not make a vigilant effort to convert or control these Christians.10 However, the Christian states organized themselves into kingdoms and solidified their control in northern Spain by the mid-twelfth century before moving into Southern Spain during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. The progression of the Christian kingdoms' conquests can be seen in Figure 2. 11 At the height of the reconquest, there were seven individual Christian kingdoms within the peninsula: Asturias, Galicia, Aragon, Navarre, Leon, Castile, and Valencia. Each of these kingdoms had their own struggles trying to gain territory, power, and recognition. The Kingdom 10 Phillips and Phillips, A Concise History of Spain, 55. 11 "Reconquista+General.Jpg (1600×914)." Accessed February 19, 2020. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/- ofiGywz891k/TzynBPnsc7I/AAAAAAAAAok/ECNzH3rSp3E/s1600/Reconquista+General.jpg. Figure 2: Timeline of the Christian King's Reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula. Internet: public domain.11 7 of Navarre was largely under the control of the French to the north and did not have much to do with the conquering of other Spanish Christian kingdoms, let alone taking a stance on combating the Arab south. However, not only were the Christian kings working to overthrow the Islamic caliphate and reconquer Iberia from the Muslims, they were all vying for control amongst themselves. In the tenth century, Alfonso III expanded into the regions of Galicia and Leon slowly gaining more territory and strengthening his Christian kingdom to combat the Moors. The kingdoms of Castile and Leon unified in 1085 and then under the kingship of Alfonso VI, they conquered Toledo.12 Toledo is situated where the Moorish Al-Andalus and the Christian kingdoms of Castile and Leon border each other, so the conquering of Toledo was a push in the right direction for the Christian kings' ultimate goal of expelling the Moors from Spain. In the northeast, Alfonso I of Aragon began consolidating his power and conquered Zaragoza by 1134, and joined with Barcelona in 1137 to form the Kingdom of Aragon. By this point, the Muslim empire was facing many issues in trying to run their territories and were slowly losing their sphere of power in the south. King Fernando III of Castile was able to penetrate Al-Andalus and conquer the Andalusian cities of Cordoba and Seville in the mid-thirteenth century. So, when the two kingdoms of Aragon and Castile prevailed over their Christian counterparts, they were left with only the Emirate of Granada as their last steppingstone to banish Muslim rule from the peninsula. King Fernando II of Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castile married in 1469 and this consolidated the royal authority of Spain.13 In January of 1492, the city of Granada fell to the Spanish forces and this ended the 780 years of Muslim control in the Iberian Peninsula. This was the final act of La Reconquista and the beginning of the age of Los Reyes Católicos or 'The Catholic Kings.' King Ferdinand and Queen 12 Phillips and Phillips, 306. 13 Phillips and Phillips, 116. 8 Isabela ruled into the first few years of the sixteenth century, which is marked as the beginning of the Spanish Inquisition—a judicial institution that was used to combat heresy in Spain. Islam and Christianity under Christian Rule Islam first began to submit to Christian rule during the period when the Christian kingdoms were all building up their states and conquering each other in the eleventh century. When Toledo was captured in 1085, allowing the Muslims to stay was crucial to the economic stability and the intellectual advancement of Christian society.14 With the expulsion of the Moors came the expulsion of their religion and began the institution of Christianity, more specifically Catholicism. The immediate issue that the church saw after the reconquest of Spanish cities was the need to introduce their ecclesiastical structure, so they began to assign bishops to these major cities in addition to creating two new ecclesiastical provinces.15 This rapid organization and dispersion of the Catholic religion in previously Islamic territories was not good news for those Muslims still living in Spain after the reconquest. The Christians could not simply expel the Muslims because in some places they made up the majority of the population and were an integral part of the economy for the country.16 Muslims who continued to live under Christian ruler adopted the name mudéjares or 'mudejars' in English. This name is derived from the Arabic word mudajan meaning 'permitted to remain' with a colloquial implication of 'tamed or domesticated.'17 Ironically, the same way the minorities were treated under Islamic rule, to include Christians, was now how the Muslims were treated under Christian rule. The Mudejars would practice their religion, law, and customs in addition to being permitted to continue their 14 Watt, A History of Islamic Spain, 150. 15 O'Callaghan, A History of Medieval Spain, 488. 16 Watt, A History of Islamic Spain, 151. 17 Watt, 151. 9 craft so long as they paid a tax. It was not uncommon for these minority groups to distinguish themselves by dressing differently and even inhabiting different quarters of town. During the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, a period known as the Mudejar age, it is evident that there is a culture common to both Christians and Muslims, and that coexistence, to the point of assimilation, was possible. However, it is important to note that the Christians, being the dominant power, were selective in what they chose to assimilate. The most evident piece demonstrating assimilation is the artistic productions, both architecturally and literarily. It was obvious that incorporating the Muslims into society was necessary and beneficial, but towards the end of the fifteenth century, economic disparages were becoming obvious and the Mudejars were the wealthier of the two groups. This jealousy and animosity led to a growing prejudice of Mudejars and once Ferdinand and Isabella unified the peninsula, they turned this prejudice into policy. The previous flirtation of religious tolerance was coming to an end, but due to the policy written for the surrender of Granada, many people of Islamic faith were briefly safe in 1492, so these religiously intolerant policies attacked other groups, namely the Jewish factions of the country. This period of brutal intolerance is known as the Inquisition, and it drastically influenced Spanish society for the years to follow, to include Miguel de Cervantes's Don Quixote of La Mancha. Part II: Survey of Muslim Architecture in Andalusia Moorish architecture is something that when one sees it, they know it. It is a mixture of oriental and occidental to create a recognizable and unique form of architecture. There are certain staple architectural features that help make this style so well-known and are also the features that other cultures adopt simply because of their beauty. Some of these features include 10 stone parapets with Islamic crenellations, horseshoe windows and doors, towers sometimes evoking a minaret, domes, arches, slender pillars, and many of these features were typically constructed with alternating colors of yellow and red brick and stone.18 The following figures demonstrate these architectural features. 18 Kalmar, "Moorish Style: Orientalism, the Jews, and Synagogue Architecture," 73. Figure 4 (above): The series of arches and horshoe shaped doors. Taken by Alexandra Parent in the Royal Alcazar in Seville, Spain. January 31, 2018. Figure 5 (below): The classic Islamic crennelations and attention to detail that characterizes all of Islamic architecture. This is also exemplatory of the domes that were utilized in Moorish architecture. Taken by Alexandra Parent at the Royal Alcazar in Seville, Spain. January 31, 2018. Figure 3: The slender pillars and open courtyards. Taken by Alexandra Parent at the Alhambra in Granada, Spain. February 23, 2018. Figure 6: The Torre del Oro or Tower of Gold located in Seville, Spain. Exemplifies the use of towers and minarets in Islamic architecture. Taken by Alexandra Parent in Seville, Spain. April 12, 2018. 11 19 These features are apparent throughout all the everyday buildings within the cities of Al- Andalus, but they also came together to make great, exceptional buildings. One in particular is the Great Mosque in Cordoba. This was built when the religion of Islam was only a century old, so it is renowned as one of the first mosques ever built. This mosque is truly grandeur in architectural style in addition to sheer size. In Islamic faith, it is forbidden to depict Allah, or any religious figure, so the traditional methods of using a painting to inspire religious awe was not possible, thus allowing for architecture to take its place. As seen in Figure 7, the rows of archways are seemingly never ending and absolutely uniform. 20 The architectural margin of the mosque (Fig 8 and Fig 10.D), which Cervantes metaphorizes with the annotation of Dulcinea written on the margin in Don Quixote, refers to the most important part of the mosque: the inscriptions. In the Islamic religion, as aforementioned, worshipping any idols or to depict Allah, Muhammad, or any other important religious figures 20 "The Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba (Spain)." Accessed February 19, 2020. https://www.turismodecordoba.org/the-mosque-cathedral-of-cordoba-spain. Figure 7: The Great Mosque located in Cordoba, Spain. Known for the uniformity and neverending archways and pillars. From Internet: public domain.20 12 through paintings are prohibited. So, the role of the inscriptions becomes the most important and revered part of the mosque much like the depiction of Jesus on the cross is worshipped by Christians. This is because the inscriptions are the holy words of the Koran. The phrase most 21commonly inscribed in these architectural margins are 'only Allah is victorious.' The metaphor Cervantes makes between the architectural and literary margin is developed to a second degree with the handwriting in the margin of the manuscript being Arabic calligraphy. This can be compared to the inscriptions in the architectural margin of the mosques, which are also written in Arabic calligraphy. This type of writing is very distinct from Western modes of writing because the purpose of Arabic calligraphy is "no como un medio utilitario de 21 Fernando Aznar, La Alhambra y el Generalife de Granada. Monumentos, 12. Figure 10: Architecture of the Mosque21 (from left to right and top to bottom): A) ataurique B) interlacing decoration C) calligraphy in the margin of the wall with scripture "Only Allah is Victorious". Also shown in Fig 11. D) horseshoe arc E) muqarnas F) half horseshoe arcs G) arc with muqarnas H) column with crowned capital Figure 8 (above): The horsehoe shaped windows and use of alternating colors and very detailed crennelations. The Arabic calligraphy can be seen above the windows. Taken by Alexandra Parent at the Alhambra in Granada, Spain. February 23, 2018. Figure 9 (above): Fig 8 on a closer scale to better see the calligraphy 13 comunicación entre los hombres sino como un medio sagrado de comunicación entre Dios y los hombres," meaning, it is not like a utilitarian means of communication between humans, but rather a sacred means of communication between God and men.22 This type of calligraphy that Arabs place in the margins of their mosques obviously have religious value and is called caligrafía cúfica or 'Kufic calligraphy' as is shown in Figure 11. 23 The text written in Arabic calligraphy in the margin of the wall of the mosque is epigrafía. It is present in all mosques and throughout the royal palace known as La Alhambra in Granada. As Fernando Aznar explains, "El texto tiene gran importancia en la decoración. Frases que ensalzan a Alá, o que hace referencia a las bellezas del lugar donde se encuentra, ditando a veces a los constructores de cada zona, se reparten por todos los muros de la residencia real."24This quote says that text has great importance in the decoration of the buildings, and that the phrases that praise Allah, or that refers to the beauties of the place where Allah is located, are all throughout the royal palace. It amplifies the important role that language has in religious symbols. 22 "La Caligrafía Árabe." 23 "Arabic Inscription." Alamy. Accessed February 24, 2020. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-arabic-inscription- carved-in-a-palace-wall-of-the-alhambra-in-granada-17181753.html. 24 Fernando Aznar, La Alhambra y el Generalife de Granada. Monumentos, 12. Figure 11: An example of Kufic calligraphy. The style of the Arabic writing in this image is classically used in Islamic mosques to state the word of Allah from the Holy Koran. This is the architectural margin. From Internet: public domain.23 14 Moorish Architectural Influence Under Christian Rule As the Christians slowly began organizing themselves into kingdoms and conquering Moorish cities in Al-Andalus, two incredibly different cultures met each other. As previously stated, an assimilation of sorts was taking place by the Christians who were adopting Islamic practices and other elements of their culture. Architecture was one of these elements that Christian rulers not only preserved, but in some cases built from bottom up utilizing these inherently Moorish styles. Using the example of the Mosque of Cordoba, it is important to note that in the middle of this Islamic prayer hall, there is something unknown to Islam; a Catholic Cathedral (Fig. 12, 13, and 14). This addition was made in the sixteenth century after the Moors were abolished from Iberia. The rulers who erected this cathedral demolished the central columns in order to make room for the Christian edifices, however, Charles V recognized the gravity of this action and how it drastically changed the ambiance and historical significance of this architectural feat. This cultural vandalism by the Christians is symbolic of the enforcement and imposition of their religion onto a different group of people. This theme is also apparent in the literary works of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries to include Don Quixote of La Mancha by Miguel de Cervantes. Figure 12: Located in the middle of the Great Mosque of Cordoba. Christian, gothic architecture meeting with Islamic architectural styles. Taken by Alexandra Parent. January 31, 2018. 15 An example of Mudejar work is the Cathedral of Seville, built after the demolition of a mosque, in order to increase the power of the Christian rulers. The architectural style of the building is very European and gothic with high vaulted ceilings and stained glass.25 As a statement piece for Christianity in former Islamic Spain, it is not expected for one to find traces of Moorish architectural influence, but there is. The Cathedral was built by Christian architects, so there was no lack of qualified Christian craftsmen, however there are qualities inherently Moorish that make its way into this grand architectural achievement. As depicted in Figure 15, the high altar in the Cathedral is adorned in so much detail that it mimics the Moorish tendency to not leave any blank space. The incessant ornamental decoration style that was a part of Islamic Spain bled into and permeated traditional Christian and European styles of architecture making its way into the very soul of Christian craftsmanship. Although the Christian Spanish rulers 25 BBC Worldwide Learning, The Moorish South: Art in Muslim and Christian Spain from 711-1492. Figure 13 (right): Christian altar located in the middle of the Great Mosque of Cordoba in Spain. Taken by Alexandra Parent. January 31, 2018. Figure 14 (left): Example of Christianity inserting itself into Muslim architecture. Taken by Alexandra Parent. January 31, 2018. 16 erected this cathedral as a statement to assert their religious dominance, the Moorish aesthetic had already made its way into the minds of the architects of that era. In addition to this, the minaret attached to the Cathedral of Seville, La Giralda (Figure 16), is evidence of this as well. The construction of this minaret concluded in 1568 and is the twin tower to the city of Marrakech. Having begun construction in 1184, La Giralda is host to the visible mixing of Moorish and Christian culture. Through the stonework, inscriptions, and different styles used, La Giralda is evidence of this assimilation of cultural and architectural practices. 26 Perhaps the most notable architectural feat in regard to Moorish influence on Christianity is seen in the Real Alcázar, or Royal Alcazar. At first glance, it is a very distinct Moorish-looking building in terms of architecture; it contains the classic Moorish archways, courtyards, crenellations and pillars (Fig 17 and 18), so it would be reasonable to conclude that it was 26 "Cathedral of Seville. Aerial View." Accessed February 24, 2020. https://seebybike.com/blog/must-see-cathedral-and- alcazar-of-seville/cathedral-of-seville-aerial-view/. Figure 15 (right): The altar located inside the Cathedral of Seville. Known for it's incredulous detail and extravagant style that is suspected to be a result of lingering Moorish influences. Taken by Alexandra Parent. January 31, 2018. Figure 16 (left): An aerial view of the Cathedral of Seville. It includes many influences of Morrish architecture to include the large tower known as La Giralda, the minarets all over the building, and the many domes that make up the cathedral. From Internet: public domain.26 17 constructed under Islamic rule. However, Christian king Peter of Castile, also known as Peter the Cruel, commissioned the Alcazar as his royal palace in the fourteenth century. He made the Alcazar identical to the architectural stylings of the Spanish Middle Ages. So, the question arises as to why a Christian ruler would deliberately choose Islamic decoration? The answer is that it comes down to power. By appropriating the Islamic art and traditional expressions, the Christian ruler projects a sort of authority over the minority subjects.27 The Moorish expressions of wealth and power are understood differently than traditional Europeans, so by creating something that the Muslim population would recognize as powerful, Peter the Cruel wielded a sort of power over the Mudejars. 27 Fernández, "Second Flowering: Art of the Mudejars." Figure 17 (left): The courtyard of the Royal Alcazar. Despite being built by a Christian king, it has many, if not completely full of, influences from Islamic architecture. Note, the pillars, the archways, the courtyard, the crennelations. Taken by Alexandra Parent. January 31, 2018. Figure 18 (right): The Royal Alcazar in Seville, Spain. This wall has both Christian and Islamic influences. Note the differences between the lower floor and the second floor of the archways. The bottom is much more functional and plainer, like traditional Christian architecture whereas the top portions are much more detailed and colorful such as depicted by Islamic architecture. Taken by Alexandra Parent. January 31, 2018. 18 Part III: The Literary Margin Treated in the Episode of the Lost Manuscript in Volume I: Chapters Eight and Nine of Cervantes's Don Quixote When reading Don Quixote, the reader is frequently taken off the main narrative path involving the adventures of the main characters, the knight and his squire Sancho Panza, and led down secondary narratives involving encounters with characters who interrupt the main narration with tales of their own stories of love, captivity, and triumph. The complexity of the narrative shows the novel to be an amalgam of many different short novels, much like the way of the river Amazon, which is fed by many smaller rivers, at the heart of which is Cervantes's parody of books of chivalry. Nevertheless, the one unchanging constant is the way the novel opens a window onto the life and times of the man who wrote it. Cervantes's novel reflects his lived experience rooted in multicultural society whose heterogeneity was the source of Spain's economic and agricultural well-being. Cervantes saw the well-being of his country destroyed by the Hapsburg dynasty's religious intolerance and persecution of minorities who did not convert from their Jewish or Muslim faith. Cervantes himself was of Jewish ancestry. His father was a surgeon, a vocation known to be practiced by Jews. Cryptic references to his Jewish ancestry appear in the portada, or cover page of this novel. For example, the phrase from the book of Job—after darkness light is hoped for—and references to their inability to worship on the Sabbath appear in the first chapter of the novel; a day when the Jewish population must be in duelos and quebrantos, or 'pain and suffering'. While a student, Cervantes was arrested and ordered to have his right hand cut off for allegedly shooting a man who had insulted his sisters. Cervantes escaped punishment by fleeing to Italy from where he joined the Holy League (an alliance among the Vatican, France, and Spain) in the Battle of Lepanto, a major battle against the Turks in the waters of the 19 Mediterranean, during which Cervantes lost the use of his left hand. After his distinguished military service in this major victory against the Turks, Cervantes was taken captive and held prisoner for five years in Algeria. His profound understanding of the Islamic world of the Maghreb, as the northern region of Africa is known, is reflected throughout Don Quixote. Upon return to Spain, he obtained work as a tax collector tasked with gathering funds throughout Andalusia for the construction of the Spanish Armada. His detailed knowledge of the geography and customs of Southern Spain is reflected throughout the novel as well. Cervantes's experiences from his military expedition against the Turks, his years in captivity in northern Africa, his travels through Andalusia, and his Jewish ancestry can be added as another factor that forged the broad multicultural perspectivism formed in his novel. As a student, Cervantes was taught by Lope de Hoyos, a known follower of the Dutch humanist philosopher Erasmus of Rotterdam. Erasmus criticized the empty ritual of the Catholic Church as well as its intolerance for Christians, especially followers of Martin Luther, who sought an unmediated religious relationship with God; one that did not require mediation by a Catholic priest. The teachings of Erasmus, an intellect who denounced the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church and its persecution of minorities and different versions of Christianity, are embraced by Cervantes and find expression in a covert manner in Don Quixote (II: 22-23).28 The episode of the lost manuscript (Volume I:8-9) reflects the perspective of multiculturalism and diversity Cervantes gained from the life experiences outlined above. Chapter eight is first and foremost about Don Quixotes's iconic battle with the windmills, the most well-known episode of the novel. Don Quixote's illusion leads him to believe that the windmills were originally giants that have been transformed into windmills by his enemy, the 28 Judith Stallings-Ward, "Tiny (Erasmian) Dagger or Large Poniard? Metonymy vs. Metaphor in the Cave of Montesinos Episode in Don Quixote." 20 wizard Freston, to cheat Don Quixote from a victory in battle against them. The deception of the knight conveys Cervantes's use of humorous parody to denounce the books of chivalry whose fantasy version of reality has brainwashed Don Quixote. A subsequent adventure in this chapter reveals Don Quixote has another lapse of reason. He believes that a Basque woman travelling to Seville, preceded by two Benedictine friars who are not in her party, and surrounded by her own men on horseback, is a princess being kidnapped. Upon observing once again his master's mind in the grip of delusion, Don Quixote's squire Sancho Panza replies, "This will be worse than the windmills."29 This foreshadows the battle that Don Quixote will ultimately have with the Basque. At the end of Chapter eight, we are left with both men having their swords unsheathed and raised at each other, but then the narration of the story abruptly stops. The narrator, a literary form of Cervantes inserted into the story by the real historical Cervantes, begins to speak directly to the reader as if in an informal conversation with them to convey that the end of the scene and the rest of the history are missing.30 This narrative style continues into Part II, chapter nine when the narrator begins a search for the missing manuscript. In this chapter we are brought to Toledo and the narrator brings the reader through the Alcaná market. The narrator Cervantes tells the story of his journey to find the manuscript in the market and how he comes across a young boy trying to sell him some notebooks, old torn papers, and other small commodities. Cervantes is inclined to pick up a certain book that the boy has and realizes the script on the front is in Arabic. Since he could not read Arabic, he finds a Morisco aljamiado, so called for their ability to speak both Arabic and Spanish, who can help translate the manuscript. It was not difficult to find this person and soon Cervantes flipped to the middle of the book and asked the Morisco to translate. Cervantes points out the availability of translators of 29 Cervantes, Don Quixote, 62. 30 Cervantes, 65. 21 all classic languages in the market, thus underscoring the advantage of multicultural spaces such as the markets of Spain. As the translator--the Morisco aljamiado--began to read the page, he laughed at something written in the margin: it stated, "'This Dulcinea of Toboso, referred to so often in this history, they say had the best hand for salting pork of any woman in La Mancha.'"31 The narrator immediately knew that this was the missing manuscript he was looking for, so he had the Morisco read even more. It is then that the reader learns the novel was originally written in Arabic by the Arab historian Cide Hamete Benengeli. Narrator Cervantes commissions the Morisco to translate the entire novel, paying him in "two arrobas of raisins, and two fanegas of wheat," so that the story of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza can be continued.32 This process of translation of the original manuscript from Arabic to Spanish is now the source of the narrator Cervantes's history of Don Quixote, and it is a collaboration between the literary Christian "Cervantes" and the original Arabic author Cide Hamete Benengeli, delivered through the translator. The reader is now being told the story through someone else's eyes and mind. The novel descends into a rabbit hole of authorship in which, ironically, the new lens is a Morisco translator. This metaphor demonstrates that true Spanish history is written as a compilation between Christianity and Islam, not one or the other, thus demonstrating historical Cervantes's disdain and disapproval of the expulsion of the Moors. Rather, Cervantes displays the importance and necessity of diversity and multiculturalism. The true author, historical Cervantes, also establishes a metaphor between the literary margin, in which the literary Cervantes discovered the novel was indeed Don Quixote, and the architectural margins of the mosque. Cervantes does this in a very clever and implicit manner, 31 Cervantes, 67. 32 Cervantes, 68. 22 otherwise he would be severely censored. Through this implied metaphor of architectural and literary margins, Cervantes is able to write a novel that has commentary to covertly express his condemnation of the Moors and announce his glorification of multiculturalism. The focus of attention placed on the margin of the manuscript wherein Arabic commentary is written calls to mind the architectural margin of the mezquita, or 'mosque', in which the Arabic calligraphy is written. The comparison between the textual margin of Cervantes's manuscript and architectural margin of the walls of the mosque would be easy for the readers of Cervantes's day to recognize given the prevalence of Muslim architecture throughout Spain, as my survey in the first part of this essay shows. Furthermore, the handwriting in Arabic by the Arab historian easily calls to mind the calligraphy used for citations from the Koran. The Arabic commentary—associated with the authoritative word of the Koran placed in the margin of the walls of the mosque—second guesses the religious purity of Dulcinea, the object of courtly worship by the Christian knight. When the translator points out the Arab historian's commentary in the margin of the manuscript, that 'the Lady Dulcinea has the best hand at salting pork,' he taints her purity by placing her in contact with a food source that is considered polluted for Muslims. The comment casts Dulcinea in tainted light. The Arab historian's questioning of religious purity occurs in tandem with the questioning of the authority or authorship of the history of Don Quixote. The literary Cervantes is a Christian writer, but he is not the true author of the original manuscript; the Arab historian Cide Hamete claims true authorship; and Dulcinea is not the pillar of religious purity she is perceived to be. The play with the double meaning of the margin (textual vs architectural) occurs with the play of spatial perspective between margin vs center. The reader sees through Cervantes's use of the metaphor as a multicultural perspective that questions the absolute status of Christian 23 authority and Christian purity. The play with meaning and perspective in Cervantes's treatment of the margin in chapters eight and nine may be taken to one final and third level of development. The margin, shown to be central in connection with the ruptured or severed manuscript, is a covert expression for Cervantes's esteem for the contributions to Spanish society by the Muslim population of his country and his condemnation for their expulsion by governmental degree from Spain. In the eyes of Cervantes, this broke of the backbone of Spain's culture and economy since the Arab population made up an incredibly large portion of the Iberian Peninsula. Cervantes accomplishes this by, not only changing chapters, but beginning a whole new section of the novel. Part I concludes with chapter eight and the pending battle between Don Quixote and the Basque, then Part II begins with the narrator Cervantes informing the reader of his journey to find the rest of the novel. Being wary of the censorship that plagued others during the Inquisition, Cervantes chose this metaphorical approach to convey his true sentiments about the situation of Spain at this moment in history. This rupture in Don Quixote's history is reflective of the moment in Spain's history where law has been decreed to banish something so inherent to the nation itself: the Moorish people. By placing these episodes side by side, Cervantes invites the reader to compare the delusion of the Hapsburg imperial vision and its expulsion of the Moors with the episode of the windmills. The blindness of Spain's government seems even more laughable than Don Quixote's own misguided attack on the windmills. Cervantes's play with the margin allows him to express his views on multiculturalism in an indirect manner that allowed him to escape censorship by the Inquisition. The Inquisition was not savvy enough to realize that this profound division between Part I and II is symbolic of the division of tolerant Spain into an intolerant Spain. After Cervantes 24 died, the Inquisition did censor and expurgate a passage that was considered too directly stated. In chapter thirteen, Don Quixote is once again declaring his servitude and attesting to the beauty of his beloved Dulcinea of Toboso. In his description to Vivaldo, he uses a Petrarchan metaphor, a very classical and renaissance style of poetry, to describe Dulcinea. Don Quixote states (Volume I:13): "Her tresses are gold, her forehead Elysian fields, her eyebrows the arches of heaven, her eyes suns, her cheeks roses, her lips coral, her teeth pearls, her necklace alabaster, her bosom marble, her hands ivory, her skin white as snow, and the parts that modesty hides from human eyes are such, or so I believed and understand, that the most discerning consideration can only praise them but not compare them."33 While eloquently put, Cervantes is nonetheless making references to the private areas of Dulcinea's body and thus was censored by the Catholic Church in 1624 after his death; they dared not censor him before since his novel made him so beloved by the people. Cervantes was too clever to have to follow the rules. His questioning of authority was apparent from the very opening words of the novel when he writes, "[s]omewhere in La Mancha, in a place whose name I do not care to remember…"34 Cervantes conveys how exact places and names are all arbitrary and are not relevant to the novel. This echoes Cervantes own questioning of authority and Spain's religious Inquisition going on that persecuted the Moors and other minorities alike. 33 Cervantes, Don Quixote, 91. 34 Cervantes, 19. 25 Conclusion The religious tolerance and interdependence between minorities of Al-Andalus, which are reflected through the architecture of Andalusia and also underscored in Cervantes's Don Quixote through the metaphorical treatment of the literary margin in the episode of the lost manuscript, seems evermore elusive today. In light of the divisiveness and racism rampant in our society that mars efforts toward multiculturalism and diversity, such as those undertaken at universities like Norwich, tolerance seems like the impossible dream that is the object of the quest of the chivalrous knight Don Quixote. 26 Bibliography Arnold, Thomas Walker. The Preaching of Islam; A History of the Propagation of the Muslim Faith. New York: C. Scribner's sons, 1913. http://archive.org/details/preachingofisla00arno. Aznar, Fernando. La Alhambra y el Generalife de Granada. Monumentos Declared of World Interest by Unescco. Mariarsa:1985. BBC Worldwide Learning. The Moorish South: Art in Muslim and Christian Spain from 711- 1492. Documentary Film. The Art of Spain: From the Moors to Modernism, 2009. https://fod.infobase.com/p_ViewVideo.aspx?xtid=39408. Cervantes, Miguel. Don Quixote. Translated by Edith Grossman. 5 edition. New York: Harper Collins, 2003. Fernández, Luis. La Historia de España en 100 preguntas. Madrid, Spain: Ediciones Nowtilus, 2019. https://ebookcentral.proquest.com/lib/norwich/reader.action?docID=5703133&ppg=1. Fernández, María Luisa. "Second Flowering: Art of the Mudejars." Saudi Aramco World, The Legacy of Al-Andalus, 44, no. 1 (February 1993): 36–41. Harsolia, Khadija Mohiuddin. "Captivity, Confinement and Resistance in Mudejar and Morisco Literature." University of California, Riverside, 2016. WorldCat.org. https://search.proquest.com/docview/1849025713?accountid=14521. Kalmar, Ivan Davidson. "Moorish Style: Orientalism, the Jews, and Synagogue Architecture." Jewish Social Studies 7, no. 3 (2001): 68–100. "La Caligrafía Árabe." Accessed February 21, 2020. http://www.arabespanol.org/cultura/caligrafia.htm. Maíz Chacón, Jorge. Breve historia de los reinos ibéricos. 1a. edición. Quintaesencia ; 6. Barcelona: Ariel, 2013. http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy1313/2013369841- b.html. Menocal, Maria Rosa. The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain. Reprint edition. Boston: Back Bay Books, 2003. O'Callaghan, Joseph. A History of Medieval Spain. 1st ed. Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press, 1975. https://ebookcentral.proquest.com/lib/norwich/detail.action?docID=3138541. 27 Phillips, William D., and Carla Rahn Phillips. A Concise History of Spain. Cambridge Concise Histories. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2010. https://library.norwich.edu/login?url=https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true &db=e000xna&AN=490553&scope=site. Raquejo, Tonia. "The 'Arab Cathedrals': Moorish Architecture as Seen by British Travellers." The Burlington Magazine 128, no. 1001 (1986): 555–63. Sheren, Ila Nicole. "Transcultured Architecture: Mudéjar's Epic Journey Reinterpreted." Contemporaneity: Historical Presence in Visual Culture 1 (June 1, 2011): 137–51. https://doi.org/10.5195/contemp.2011.5. Stallings-Ward, Judith. "Tiny (Erasmian) Dagger or Large Poniard? Metonymy vs. Metaphor in the Cave of Montesinos Episode in Don Quixote." Comparative Literature Studies. 43.4 (2006) special issue: Don Quixote and 400 Years of World Literature. 441-65. Stallings-Ward, Judith. Gerardo Diego´s Creation Myth of Music: Fábula de Equis y Zeda. London: Routledge, 2020. Urquízar-Herrera, Antonio. Admiration and Awe: Morisco Buildings and Identity Negotiations in Early Modern Spanish Historiography. 1 online resource (289 pages) vols. Oxford: OUP Oxford, 2017. http://public.ebookcentral.proquest.com/choice/publicfullrecord.aspx?p=4850548. Watt, W. Montgomery. A History of Islamic Spain. Islamic Surveys; 4. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1977.

Van Summerill, July 16, 2013 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Van Summerill. The interview was conducted on July 16, 2013, by Sarah Langsdon. Van discusses his memories of Ogden and 25th Street. ; 34p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Van Summerill Interviewed by Sarah Langsdon 16 July 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Van Summerill Interviewed by Sarah Langsdon 16 July 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Summerill, Van, an oral history by Sarah Langsdon, 16 July 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Van Summerill July 16, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Van Summerill. The interview was conducted on July 16, 2013, by Sarah Langsdon. Van discusses his memories of Ogden and 25th Street. SL: This is Sarah Langsdon and I'm here interviewing Van Summerill about his memories of the theaters in Ogden at his home in Ogden, Utah. It is July 16, 2013. Van, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about when and where you were born? VS: I was born in Ogden, Utah. I've lived here all my life except when I was in basic training for the National Guard and that was at Fort Ord, California and I don't call that living particularly, in the old barracks and such. I was born in the old Dee hospital and lived just a block away from it all my youth on Van Buren just off of 24th Street. So, close to downtown, and close to the Hospital Drug Store that we'd go and get root beer floats and things as kids. SL: Did you have any siblings? VS: Yes, one brother, who's four years younger than I and a sister who's seven years younger. SL: What do you remember about going to the Egyptian Theater as a child? VS: Oh I have very vivid memories. The only thing I don't recall is exactly when I started going. I imagine my parents would have let me go to the kids' shows by myself maybe when I was seven or eight. That would have been about 1949 or 1950. That did two things, it kept us entertained—I'm speaking of my brother 1 when he got old enough to go with me. My sister, I don't remember her ever going to the show with us, because she was much younger and the kids shows at The Egyptian started at 9:30 on Saturday mornings, they were called "Kiddie Shows." Admission was 20 cents and I remember lining up in front of the Egyptian, some days in a lot of fresh, overnight snow. When you were a little kid, it seemed like it took forever to stand in line and work your way up to the box office and finally get in. Of course, we had to buy a soft drink or candy or something before the show started. Then, wow, did we ever have the entertainment. There was always a feature film and serial chapter with a weekly cliff-hanger ending. That's where I was introduced to, "The Little Rascals," the "Our Gang Comedies," "Laurel and Hardy," "The Three Stooges," "Abbott and Costello," to name a few. They had all kinds of short subjects and cartoons and cartoons and cartoons. I remember the big curtain would then come down momentarily and then magically rise again, and the screen had disappeared. I didn't know at the time where it went. Out would come a tall distinguished man, Ted Kirkmeyer, who was the manager of the Egyptian and probably had more influence on my life than, in some ways, than my parents—even my own father. They had contests on the stage and they drew lucky ticket numbers and gave away things such as Hi-C orange juice in cans. The final giveaway was a bicycle each week. I was a shy kid and scared to death that my ticket number would be called and I'd have to go up on stage. It didn't dawn on me at the time that I was the only one that knew what my ticket number was and I could just—if 2 they called it, just ignore it. But, I was always terrified I was going to be called on stage. I always remember Mr. Kirkmeyer would say to the 1,200 youngsters packed in the Egyptian after the drawings, "Now, boys and girls, I have a pin in my hand, it's just a straight pin, and if it's quiet enough in here, if you kids are quiet enough that I can hear this pin drop, we'll have five more cartoons." Well, the place turned into a morgue. I mean, you could hear everybody breathing except the ones holding their breath so they wouldn't make any noise, and he'd drop this pin and then the drama would build. Finally, he would say, "I heard the pin, there's five more cartoons." Well, that was like hitting the jackpot, so on would come the cartoons nearly drowned out by 1,200 appreciative yells and squeals. The Saturday morning Kiddie Matinees were where I watched my favorite cartoon character, Mighty Mouse. Mighty Mouse cartoons were shown at the Egyptian because they were released by 20th Century Fox and the Egyptian was a Fox theater. They also ran RKO Radio Pictures, which meant Walt Disney's cartoons were screened all the time too. That was before Buena Vista Releasing Corporation was formed; before RKO went out of business. The cartoon mainstays were: Pluto, Goofy, Donald, Mickey and Minnie, Mighty Mouse, and Heckle and Jeckle. I remember them well. I was also introduced to some of the great old Vaudevillians; Leon Errol, for one. He made a series of 18 minute short subjects for RKO. Also, a man by the name of Edgar Kennedy, famous for the, "Slow Burn." He also appeared in many Laurel and Hardy movies. 3 I remember one Saturday they showed, "Mighty Joe Young," which was made by the people who created, "King Kong." The stop motion animation was even better than it was in, "King Kong." They made the gorilla smaller, he wasn't as big, but he was still larger than life. I was fascinated by that show. It was basically the same story as, "King Kong," they captured a gorilla and brought him back to America to perform at a night club. He misbehaves, they're after him to kill him because of the danger that he presented to the people. I was just fascinated with the night club movie set. It had a long bar and this thick glass window in back of it. There were lions roaming around back and forth behind the big window. This film sparked this young boy's imagination more than any other. I remember there was a soft drink machine in the lobby. You'd put in, I think 20 cents, and the cup would drop down and then you'd push a flavor button. Well, I made, what I guess you would call a "suicide" because I'd push orange and then I'd push coke and then I'd push root beer and then 7-Up and then back and forth and back and forth. I thought that made the best drink. But my very favorite movie treats were ice cream bon-bons. They were the most expensive of everything the Egyptian sold. I think they were 25 cents for five ice cream bon-bons in an elongated cardboard box. And the thing I remember most about them, it didn't bother me, but the chocolate initially kind of tasted like the cardboard So anyway, I grew up going to the kids' shows and then I started noticing that there were all these announcements coming of Cinema Scope. That would have been in 1953. I remember one day after the kids' show—I always waited out in front of the theater for Dad to come pick me up. He had less than a mile to 4 drive to come and get me, but I knew that the regular movie starting shortly on this particular day was in Cinema Scope, and I wanted to see what it was. So, I just sat in the auditorium and no one came by to make me leave. So, on comes this wide Cinema Scope picture and I thought, "Oh, so that's what this is all about." Pretty soon I was tapped on the shoulder and it was my dad, who had gone around the block, I don't know how many times, and finally had to park the car and come in to see what had happened to me. I remember the remodeling in 1951, it was completed in December that year and it was a very nice job. By 1951, television competition was beginning to devastate attendance numbers at theaters. Fox's solution was to spend millions of dollars on their theaters, update them and redecorate them. They generally did an excellent job on the Egyptian, in spite of painting over some of the original colors, particularly on the lobby ceiling. But I remember going to the Egyptian the first day after the grand opening. I had never paid attention to the old original doors, but I did notice that there were brand new doors. They were all glass in simple aluminum frames, which in retrospect cheapened and clashed with the Egyptian art. To this day, I remember stepping through those doors and smelling the new paint. Looking around, I could tell some areas where they had repainted. Some I wasn't sure, but I knew it was different. The carpet felt as if it was two inches thick, very comfortable and very plush. The stage treatment was awesome. There were two new curtains installed and the front drape was what is called a Venetian curtain that rises in graceful scallops. Immediately behind the Venetian was a blue-gray curtain that opened sideways from the center, which 5 was called a traveler, or title curtain. So the audience never saw a blank screen at the movies. The studio logo would appear on that blue-gray curtain and then it would start to open sideways. At the end of the picture, the projectionist would time it so that just as the fade out on, "The End." That curtain would close again and then the Venetian curtain, gracefully descended. It was a fantastic addition to the Egyptian. SL: Did you go every weekend throughout the entire year or was it mostly summers? VS: No, I think it was generally in the winter and I honestly can't tell you how often, but I know we didn't go every weekend, but went enough that I saw my fill of cartoons and it seemed like I'd come home every Saturday with a headache. But what I used to like to do while I was waiting for my dad to come pick me up was stand out next to the box office. At that time, I was just tall enough to see in the box office side window. I liked to watch the cashier punch the keys on the change machine and watch the coins roll down a narrow trough and into a small dish-shaped container from which the customer could easily retrieve their change. In those days, adult tickets in the evening were 65 cents. Students got in for 50 cents if you had a student discount card and kids were 20 cents. That would have been the same for the Orpheum across the street. The Paramount was cheaper to go to and it was down on Kiesel, almost directly in back of the Egyptian. I think their price for kids was 15 cents anytime. I don't remember exactly what the adult fare was, but it was generally a little cheaper than the Egyptian and the Orpheum because it was considered a second rate theater, as was the Ogden Theater. 6 SL: Van, what do you remember about the former manager of the Egyptian? What was his name? VS: Ted Kirkmeyer was the manager when I was a kid and going to the movies there. He was later promoted to city manager in Salt Lake for Fox. He left Ogden in 1957 and then it was Bill Souttar. But, I kept in touch with Ted right up until his death and then Nellie, his wife, right up until she passed away. They both lived well into their nineties and Nellie told the story, Ted was sitting there listening— he was a very quiet, almost a shy person, when I'd go visit them and so Nellie was doing the talking—but she said that one Saturday morning it snowed the whole time that kids show was going on. It ended and the regular afternoon matinees started at 1:00. It was well after that mid-afternoon that this very upset woman called the theater and asked to speak to the manager and so Ted came on the phone and said, "This is Mr. Kirkmeyer," The woman said, "I'm so upset, my boy spent all his bus money on candy and then had to walk home in the snow storm and he just barely got home." Nellie said that the incident bothered Ted so much all week that he made it a point when he was up on the stage to explain to the audience that next Saturday, which could be as many as 1,200 kids in those days, just what happened to the young man. He said, "Now, boys and girls, I never want you to be in that position and I don't ever want this to happen again to any of you, so if you find yourself in a position where you don't have bus money to get home, my name is Mr. Kirkmeyer, my office is out in the lobby. You come and see me and I'll make sure you have money to ride the bus." 7 Nellie said, "Before Ted could get down off the stage and back out into the lobby, there was a line of kids that formed across the lobby and down the aisle in the theater waiting to collect their money for the bus." She said, "Ted didn't say anything, he indeed passed out whatever it took to ride the bus then—ten cents or whatever it was—to every single one of those kids that was in that line." Ted would never start a show or open the box office until he had a vase with a long-stemmed rose bud in the box office. He was just a class act. In fact, he was awarded the exhibitor of the year, but I think it was in 1938 or 1937, somewhere in there before he came to Ogden to run the Egyptian—I think he was still in Colorado. He was named motion picture exhibitor of the year by Darryl F. Zanuck himself, president of 20th Century Fox. The award was given to Ted in Paris, France. I have a picture of Ted and Zanuck and it's funny because Ted just towers over this little Darryl Zanuck. Ted Kirkmeyer paid attention to details. He had an eye for the ladies as far as having attractive young ladies work in his theaters. I have the pictures to prove it. Theater managers could win cash prizes and even vacations with photographic proof of what they did special to promote movies in their theaters. So, from time to time they would have a photographer come in and document promotion activities. One time, Ted had his staff of young ladies in swimming suits and they were photographed demonstrating ways of fighting fires if one happened to break out in the theater. They are holding fire extinguishers and containers of this and that retardant. It ended up a cheesecake instruction poster to my mind. 8 In 1948, the Miss Ogden Pageant was held in the Egyptian at Ted's urging. Miss Ogden went on to become Miss Utah and represented the state in the Miss America pageant. Ted was a great showman and someone that instilled in me a love of theater buildings. You want to hear about Bill Souttar too? SL: Sure. VS: Ted Kirkmeyer was promoted by Fox Intermountain Theaters to district manager over all Fox theaters in Salt Lake City. Then, out of the Midwest, came Bill Souttar, who was in so many ways, the exact opposite of Ted in management style. He could be bombastic. He seemed to be at his worst when we were the busiest at the theaters. It brought out, I don't know, nerves or something in him, but the way he reacted sometimes to the public, I thought, was amusing. I worked as Mr. Souttar's assistant manager for eight months at the age of 19 and I could always tell when he and Madge, his wife, had a disagreement at home before he came to work. It kind of slopped over, he kind of took it out on the staff. I saw him fire ushers on the spot for chewing gum, for having their hands in their pockets, or for the most grievous sin of all, sneaking popcorn out of the machine and eating it. So, he could be tough to work for, but after I quit as assistant manager at the Egyptian, it wasn't long before I went back as a part-time doorman one or two shifts a week just because I wanted to be in that building and part of that industry. When I went for National Guard basic training in California, Bill Souttar wrote me several times, keeping me informed what was going on at the Egyptian. 9 Eventually, I found myself in a situation where I was a quasi-assistant manager a lot of times. Mr. Souttar went through several assistant managers, so there were occasions in between I would be asked to fill in. I remember one New Year's Eve in particular. The lobby was filling up with people coming for the late show which was to begin about 10:00 p.m. It was timed to start so that somewhere in the movie, just minutes before midnight, the projectionist would insert a countdown to the New Year film clip. Precisely at midnight, the words to, "Auld Lang Syne," would come on the screen for the audience to sing. But anyway, the doorman noticed these two guys coming into the lobby and they were "happy." They were really happy, they had they're arms around each other singing to the top of their lungs and weaving side-to-side on their way to the doorman's stand. This particular doorman was kind of a wimpy guy anyway and didn't want to confront these drunks, so he hurried over to the office door, "Mr. Souttar, Mr. Souttar, come out here quick." So, Bill came out and stopped these guys and said, "Boys you're going to have to go back and get your money refunded because we can't let you in. You're a little bit under the weather, shall we say, and we'll get you a refund." Well, they said, "No, no, we're okay," and started arguing to the point where Bill had to get forceful with them and physically started nudging them back to the box office. About that time, I turned and was looking inside the theater at everybody standing around the concession stand who, in turn, were looking at what was going on with Souttar and these two guys out by the box office. The first thing I knew, I see everybody in unison go, [gasp], and I turned around just in 10 time to see Mr. Souttar's glasses go flying one way and he went flying the other. Well, those guys, I don't know what he said to them, but one of them knocked Bill for a loop. But other than a small cut on his nose, he was okay. It broke his glasses though. The hardest part about that deal for me was trying not to laugh when he came back in the theater. Of course, the staff loved it because, like I said, he was a tough nut to work for and he sometimes tested your ability to love your fellow man, so to speak. So, we're in the lobby kind of, "Hehehehe," and then all of a sudden, this booming voice out of the office, "Van, come in here." I thought, "Oh no, now I really have to control myself." Anyway, I went in the office and Bill says, "You're going to have to count tonight's money because my glasses are broken and I can't see." By the way, Mr. Souttar opted not to press charges against the two drunks. SL: How did you start working at the Egyptian Theater? VS: When I was 19, I must looked like I was about 15. I was in college, but I was downtown for a dentist appointment. After seeing the dentist I thought, "I'll go to a matinee movie." So I bought a ticket to the Egyptian, as I walked in Mr. Souttar saw me. He said, "What are you doing out of school?" I said, "Oh, I had a dentist appointment and decided to come to the movie afterward. I'm out of high school anyway; I'm in college." He'd seen me around and we chatted from time to time. He said, "I've got a position open if you're interested." I asked, "What's that?" Bill said, "Assistant manager." I felt that I would be in seventh heaven having that job and immediately accepted the offer. 11 VS: I was 1962. Candy girls were making 65 cents an hour; the box office girls likely were making about 15 cents more an hour than I was. I figured I was working about 50 hours a week, for 60 dollars. So, I wasn't making a heck of a lot of money but was spending a lot of time in that theater. When you're in the movie business, you work when everybody else plays. I recall an incident that happened at the Egyptian about this time that played out like a movie script. I was in the lobby one day and I just half-noticed a man come up to the box office—nothing unusual about that—then he walked away. Shortly, I noticed two guys at the box office and one of them looked as if he flashed a badge to the cashier. As they walked away, I approached the cashier and asked, "What's going on there?" The cashier said, "That's was the FBI, and they're tailing the person who just was at the box office. I said, "Oh, that one that just walked away/" She nodded. I asked if the suspect was coming back. The cashier told me he bought a ticket to the next show. Within a few minutes, here comes four or five other agents, in the front door and they were stationed all over the theater. They had questioned the cashier, so they knew they had about a half an hour before the next show started, so they got these guys all situated, and I thought, "Woah, this could be exciting." So then, in comes the guy, and goes in the theater and we're just all on pins and needles. This really livened up the night, but if that weren't enough, all of a sudden, we heard sirens coming down Washington Boulevard, and all these fire trucks stopped in front of the Egyptian. I walked out front to see what was going on. Schubach Jewelry Store occupied the north commercial space in the Egyptian building, adjacent to the lobby and the 12 box office. (On the south side was Standard Optical then). Anyway, Schubach Jewelry had this big diamond above their window that was covered with light bulbs that blinked and glittered. One of the guys that was staking out the theater in a car across the street saw that sign catch on fire, so he called the fire department. While I'm standing out front, I notice one particular man. He was just opening his wallet to buy tickets, and a couple of firemen rush by him hauling a hose into the Egyptian. The second fireman has one of those big axes, so this guy is looking at them, then he's looking at his wallet and he's trying to decide whether he's going to buy a ticket under the circumstances. I don't remember whether he bought tickets of not. Anyway, the movie went on and we were all waiting to see what happens next, and the suspect walks out, down the street, obviously being tailed, and that was the end of that. We never found out what was going on. There are always funny stories in theaters, funny things that happen. Mr. Souttar told me this story, and I don't know whether it happened at the Egyptian. He came to Ogden from the Midwest, out of Fox Midwest Theaters to manage the Egyptian. He said one day the custodian came in with a set of false teeth he found in the heater and Souttar told him, "Well, put them in the lost and found box," which he did, and then a couple of days went by and finally a man came in and asked, "Did you find a pair of false teeth in the theater?" Mr. Souttar nodded, "Yes, we did, and I'll have someone get them for you. May I ask how you happened to leave your false teeth here?" He said, "Well, I was watching the 13 movie and my teeth start hurting, so I took them out and put them on the chair next to me." Now, can imagine, something that's going in your mouth, resting on a theater seat next to you? SL: What other movie theaters did you end up working in? VS: The training theater for the Union, (I didn't really have to train very long because I had near-lifetime experience with 16mm film) was The Movie, a little theater built in what had been the Ben Lomond Hotel dining room. It was off of 25th Street. It was a nice room. The Stephens, I think they were brothers, or father and son, had built one of Ogden's first drive-ins, the Mt. Ogden, in 1948, located where the South Ogden Costco is now and K-Mart before that. I don't think there was just one reason why it was decided to move the drive-in. One was that Sears moved in across the street and the parking lot lights were interfering with the picture at the Mt. Ogden. Anyway, the North Star Drive-In, on the old highway to Brigham replaced the Mt. Ogden in about 1960. Then, Stephens ventured into building that little theater in the hotel, but anyway, that was the Union Projectionists training theater. After I was trained in the Union and working the Wilshire in South Ogden and the Northstar Drive-In, I still filled in position there for a while. We were running, "Jeremiah Johnson," I remember and I looked at the picture on the screen and the CinemaScope lens was a little crooked. What happens if you turn that lens just a little bit? It forms a parallelogram, where the two sides are parallel to each other, same thing for top and bottom. But the picture was running slightly uphill. I thought, "I'm going to fix that," so I started messing with that lens and the lens fell out of the projector. Luckily, it fell in the window sill. I quickly 14 checked and it was okay, but I was so nervous and shaking I had difficulty putting it back in its slot. Luckily, there were only a handful of customers in the place. I did most of my projecting work at the Wilshire. It was on Harrison Boulevard in South Ogden and was supposed to be the cornerstone of a mall to be built by John Hinckley, who also owned Hinckley Dodge. They built the theater first, but the mall was never built. I worked Saturday nights, which is unusual for a part-time projectionist to work the busiest night; normally the head projectionist works that night. I enjoyed that shift because it was busy and there were usually a lot of people there. I also worked a little bit at the Orpheum downtown. I'm glad I was able to do that because, of course, it's gone and has been for a long time. I happened to work opening day of Jaws, which of course was the big picture of the year. The place was packed for the first show and the rest of the say, and so I always remember that. The North Star; I didn't much like working the drive-in. I remember coming home from a shift one night and it was getting light. I was as if the sun would come up any minute. In the middle of summer, when your days are long, you have two extra-long movies. They always run the first movie, then the second and then run the first one again. That as one of those nights, so the birds were chirping and I was just getting home. Aaron Farr, our Union's business agent and one of the old timers, told this story: Aaron was a projectionist at the Northstar one night. He kept hearing these strange sounds and couldn't figure out what the heck they were. He decided they were coming from outside the booth. He discovered there was a carload of young guys who were drinking beers and 15 trying to throw the empty beer bottles through the projection room portal. Had they succeeded, the projector could have been damaged. Surprisingly, the Browning Fine Art Auditorium was Union house even though they ran just 16mm rather than the standard 35mm. We used to show travel logs and all kinds of things. I even met the movie star Charleston Heston who augmented his lecture with film clips. I also met the grandson of comedian, W.C. Fields, who showed scenes from his grandfather's films. That projector in the Fine Arts center was a German machine which threaded from the opposite side. It was somewhat confusing. I always panicked when I had to work there just because of the fact that it was such a different machine. SL: Did you ever work at the Ogden? VS: Oh yes. Besides the Egyptian, the Ogden was Peery's other theater. They leased them both to Fox and so it was also under the jurisdiction of Bill Souttar. When you were assistant manager at the Egyptian, you were kind of the manager of the Ogden Theater, which operated mostly on weekends, especially in the summer. Just weekends because the drive-ins killed the downtown theaters in the summer. Fox booked more money on a Sunday running Spanish films than the Egyptian did running first rate, first run movies. Even back then, there were that many transient far workers who labored summers in the area. Sometimes those people would talk, we knew they must be talking about us, but we didn't know for sure what they were saying. Hopefully it was nice. The staff was instructed to always be courteous. One time, I looked in on the screen, it was a Spanish language film of course, but it took place in India. 16 It just struck me so funny; here are all these Indians with turbans on their heads and they're speaking Spanish. The Ogden was a poor stepsister to the Egyptian. The screen had long since ceased to fly in the loft, so it was on wheels. Promoters tried everything in there to make a profit and they'd book either boxing matches or wrestling matches. To tell you the truth, I don't know which. They'd push that screen to the back of the stage and set the mats and ropes in place. Then afterwards, bring the screen back into position. But in moving it back and forth, all the black masking across the bottom became frayed and torn. It was a mess. The old gentleman— Chris—who was a projectionist had come out of retirement to run these Spanish movies. That's all he did. He'd lock himself in that projection booth for the one o'clock show and stay in there all day and run movies. I looked in the auditorium, it was intermission one day. Out of ten or so lights that shined on the stage curtains, four had light bulbs that were working. I remember the curtain motor was out of adjustment, so the curtains stopped about two feet short of closing. You could see the frayed black masking on the bottom, and to top things off, Christ, was playing 45 rpm Spanish records on a 78 rpm record player, resulting in the singer sounding like a Hispanic Minnie Mouse. I remember thinking, "So this is show business, huh?" But I loved that old theater. The Ogden had quite the history. It opened in December of 1909 as a legitimate theater. It wasn't a vaudeville house. It was for traveling plays that came through town. There was a trunk up in one of the dressing rooms there. It was just like you see in the movies—these theatrical trunks with the stickers from all over the 17 country and perhaps the world posted on it. I had half a notion to just go in and take it. I never did. They tore the theater down and I was lamenting to Mr. Souttar one day about that trunk. He says, "Well, why didn't you ask? You could have taken it." Those old theaters have an odor to them, not necessarily a bad one, and a patina to them, unlike new ones and restored ones. I learned to love that smell. The Paramount smelled that way, the Ogden had carpet in front of the concession stand that had been there since probably the forties that had so much soda pop and God knows what else spilled on it, it was glazed over. I mean, you could see the pile and the pattern, but you couldn't move it. It wouldn't move, it was just that solid—like a rock. SL: Where was The Ogden located? VS: The Ogden was located across 25th Street from the Ben Lomond. Well, not quite directly. East of the Ben Lomond where a motel sits now was an old hotel, the Ogden Hotel. It was five or six stories high and it looked like it had a lot of indigent people living there because whenever I glanced that way, there were always older men sitting in chairs in the lobby. When I was in high school, I went to the Ogden every week. They were running American International Pictures, a studio specializing in Schlocky, cheap horror movies and they were always double features. In my film collection, I have an American International Picture called, "Invasion of the Saucerman." It's these little green men, although you don't know they're green because the picture is black and white. When they got agitated, needle-like tubes would come out from 18 under their fingernails and they'd shoot the victim full of alcohol and they'd be drunk—sometimes to the point that they'd die. I remember they even stabbed a cow. Anyway, that was the cheap and silly second feature to go with, "I Was a Teenage Werewolf," which starred Michael Landon. I saw more crap, but at the time, enjoyed it at the Ogden Theater every Saturday afternoon. The Ogden was what they called a move over theater for the Egyptian. For instance, if a certain movie was held over at the Egyptian and there was commitment to bring in a new picture to the Egyptian on a certain date, the old picture—if still profitable—would be moved to the Ogden. The Orpheum did the same with the Paramount. A lot of times you'd open the Friday night paper, the day films often changed, and it'd say, "Held over, moved over." I remember they did that with, "Gypsy," with Natalie Wood. It was playing at the Orpheum for weeks. It moved down to the Paramount and had a successful run there. I remember the year, "The Apartment," won several Academy Awards, as did, "Elmer Gantry." Those pictures hadn't played in theaters for a while; they'd come out earlier that year. The two pictures were so honored, the studio rushed them back out as a double feature. It was the longest double feature I've ever been to in my life, both shows were well over two hours each. But, they looked into the Paramount and mobs of customers showed up. The staff was dumbfounded. They were not prepared to handle that many people. There hadn't been that size crowd in there for years. They had to hurry ushers up to the balcony to dust seats off that hadn't been used for a decade or so. That was an exciting night. I loved seeing all those people in the Paramount. 19 SL: Did you ever meet Harm Peery, when you were working? VS: No, I didn't. I remember that he died; I think I was in junior high maybe. I've got a copy of his obituary in my files, but I can't remember exactly when he died. SL: What would you say your favorite theater was that you worked? VS: Well, no question, for many reasons, the Egyptian, of course, has always been my favorite. As far as working, I so enjoyed the Wilshire. When I first started there it was a single theater, same size as the Egyptian, about 850 seats. Eventually, two two smaller 350 seat theaters were added off the lobby, so they were like spokes off the lobby. There were three separate projection booths all accessed in the lobby, so I got to do a lot of people watching and walking around constantly looking in on each booth. That was when the film platter system came into prominence where the films were all spliced together and laid flat on a great big platter. Sometimes those things didn't work the way they were supposed to. I recall one time, obviously you could only be in one of the booths at any time, in each booth a third of the time, technically, there's no other way about it. The Wilshire had run Barbara Streisand's version of, "A Star is Born," for months. For some reason, that picture was bigger in Utah than anywhere else. I was making my rounds and I walked in the booth where that film was running, and a loose splice, had gone down through the projector and was on its way back to go up on the platter when it split in half. It split the film in half, so when I walked in, instead of a film 35 millimeters wide, there was a little strip about the size of the 16 millimeter winding on the platter and the other half was piling up on the floor 20 about two feet deep. So, with the platter system, all I could do was stop it, discard the split segment, then splice the two halves together, missing about ten minutes of the movie. The Wilshire had just hired a new manager. I don't know why they hired this kid. He was likeable enough, but for whatever reason, he was a lousy manager. He didn't order a replacement reel for several days, if not a week or more. So, people, every show would come out and say, "There's part of this movie missing." The incident that finally got him fired was this: There was a protocol that management had to follow taking the days deposit in the zipper money bag to the bank. You always were accompanied by another staff person. Well, this manager never followed that. At that time there was a temporary bank set up in a mobile home at the edge of the Wilshire property. Somebody obviously had been staking the place out. The manager—alone—was walking over to the bank when a car starts up across the parking lot, and the wheels screech and this car is heading right for him. As the car zoomed up to him, the manager up and threw the bag of money into the open car window. That was the last seen of the money and the last day the young man was employed at the Wilshire. SL: Van, do you have any memories about 25th Street or downtown Ogden, other than the theaters? Any stores you remember going to? VS: Well, the story went like this, and I don't know whether it was true or not. I tend to believe it was true, that Ogden, in the late fifties, was, I don't know what you'd call it, whether it was a test city for fashion, for teenager's fashions, or what, but 21 we had some great clothing stores here. Individual, local stores. I loved the old Penney's building, which sat where that unsightly new Wells Fargo building is at Washington Blvd and 24th Street. That old Penney's building was originally a ZCMI most of its early life, then it was Wright's Department Store and finally Penney's. It was an old, old building and I remember the elevator was operated by a Penney's employee. When first in college, Irene White, a coed of mine, was one of the elevator girls there. I remember looking at the tiny little seat that she had to sit on that ever so slightly protruded from the wall. It was just kind of like a little shelf that must not have been very comfortable. I remember the pneumatic tubes, through which they'd send the cash for change and things, through those pipes all through that place. Then, of course, the code for the telephone. Each station had so many bell rings, "Bing, bing, bing," or whatever. So I remember that. The men's stores, Buehler-Bingham, occupied street-level space of what was then the Eccles Building. There was Block's, Levin's and Fred M. Nye's. I don't know why they tore the Nye's building down, kitty-corner across the street from the Egyptian. That was the nicest store. The downtown mall killed that and the local clothing stores. 25th Street; my dad had stories about 25th Street. Lear Summerill worked for the gas company for 43 years. He started in the Mountain Fuel Supply Company office and retired as District Manager. They would not let the gas men go down 25th Street alone. They'd have to go in pairs. All the stories about 22 underground tunnels everywhere; I have seen no proof whatsoever. Individual basements, were sometimes connected side-by-side with doorways. I have heard there is or was a tunnel that ran under Washington Boulevard between the old First Security Bank building and the Eccles Building, but know of no 25th Street tunnels. I remember one New Year's Eve, when we were kids, two neighbors, and I were playing on the phone and got the crazy idea to call a 25th Street bar. We dialed up the Porters and Waiters Club. My neighbor was on the phone and this woman answered. My neighbor asked, "Could ya'll check to see if my husband's in there?" She said, "Well, honey, what's your husband's name?" "Charles." "Just a minute…Is there a Charles in here?" Luckily, no one named Charles came to the phone. We thought that was the funniest thing that ever was. Now, having learned about the Porters and Waiters Club, and the important role it played in the world of Jazz and all the great musicians and singers who stayed and performed there, I only wish I could have witnessed some of it firsthand. During the 1940's, my parents would park on lower 25th Street to watch the characters who would go up and down that infamous street. My memories are mainly of Washington and "dragging that boulevard" and the drive in restaurants, we would make a turn-around to do it all over again. There was A&W and Mason's, to name a couple. There were other who's names escape me, but I remember most had car-hops. Where Warren's Drive-In is, at Wall Avenue and Riverdale Road, that was Rusty's. KLO was a top 20 station then and a pretty popular station. They set up, 23 right on that corner a broadcast booth. It had big windows all the way around and the big DJ on the weekends was named, "Big Pete." He used to broadcast from that booth out there at Warren's. I always thought he was kind of silly. KLO studios were up in the Ben Lomond Hotel on the seventh floor, I think it was. They'd been there since the forties and a friend of mine knew all these radio personalities there, so we were up there on a Saturday night and I remember going in a room that was the record library with hundreds of 78 rpm from the forties. I know that KLO in the forties had studios both in Salt Lake and Ogden. I was told that when KLO moved out of the hotel, no attempt was made to save that library. There were probably some valuable old records there. SL: How did you get involved in the restoration of the Egyptian Theater? VS: I wrote a "call to arms" letter published in the Standard-Examiner in March of 1985 that resulted in the formation of the Friends of the Egyptian, Inc., which would later become known as the Egyptian Theatre Foundation. This is my 40th year as a member of the Theatre Historical Society of America. Attending their national yearly conventions, I have visited between 800 and 900 theaters across the country and Canada. I had seen many times what would happen to the Egyptian if no attempt was made to save the Ogden's movie palace. It would be destroyed. In 1973, my first year I was a member of the Theatre Historical Society, I was asked to write an article about Peery's Egyptian for publication in their quarterly, "Marquee." And so I did. I had been researching the Egyptian since my high school days. 24 It is amazing how many theaters across the land end up parking lots, here in Ogden too. I knew we were about to get another parking lot. As a long time Theatre Historical Society member, over time, I discovered there usually are predictable signs to the probably fate of these theaters. An ugly fate was becoming a real possibility for the Egyptian. So, I was compelled to write the letter to the editor. The organizing meeting was held in special collections at Weber State in March of 1985. So, it took twelve years to save, raise the necessary funds and restore the Egyptian Theater. The Theatre Historical Society folks approached me about having the convention in Utah. Past conventions had been in Toronto, even London, not to mention, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, New York, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Seattle, and now they're coming to Utah. The only way we could line up enough theaters was to tour the northern Utah theaters and then bus through eastern Idaho and western Montana, and end up in Missoula. That's the most busing the society had ever done. I worried about that, but, you know, the scenery was so spectacular the members loved it. Our convention was originally scheduled for 1995, but was postponed twice in order for the Egyptian to be completed. The Utah convention finally took place in 1997. We made it so the Egyptian was the last theater that we visited in Utah before heading north. Our volunteer staff got a standing ovation when all was said and done. SL: What do you remember about some of the other theaters being torn down, since the Egyptian is the only one that's still standing? 25 VS: I remember three of them being torn down. I have some pictures of the Ogden Theater as a pile of rubble. Workers knocked a hole through the side of the Paramount. I took a couple of friends down there one really cold, gloomy February day. I took several minutes of movies in there. That the Orpheum collapsed was no surprise to me. Actually, it was the Orpheum apartments that collapsed which were in front of the Orpheum. The person who owned and was remodeling the Ben Lomond Hotel insisted he had to have an entrance and parking where the apartments and theater were located. It was controversial at the time, debris shoots jutting out from south-side hotel windows. That debris had nowhere to go but on the roof of the five-story high Orpheum Apartments. You pile enough demolition debris on the roof, of course the building is going to collapse. I got a phone call, somebody called me and said, "You've got to get downtown, the Orpheum apartments have collapsed. Upon arriving, the first thing I did was look up at those windows. All those chutes had disappeared inside. I had real mixed feelings about the Orpheum. Everything historic had long been lost and forgotten. There was no record of what that building originally looked like inside. On the other hand, if they saved the Orpheum, I thought, the bigger nightmare would be tearing down that hotel. I really would have liked to have seen the Paramount stay, but I've often asked myself if the Paramount and the Egyptian were both standing, which one would you pick to save? That would have been a tough decision. Ogden couldn't support two historic theaters. SL: How has Ogden changed since you were young? 26 VS: Well, there's no more drinking fountains on the downtown sidewalks as there used to be. It's changed, it has changed so much. When I was in high school, it was a vibrant downtown. It took me a long time to figure out what happened to this town. A major factor was the coming of the freeway. It is my understanding that Eisenhower's main reason for building the freeways was to facilitate moving troops and military equipment around during the Cold War. But what happened when you put the freeway in? Salt Lake City all of a sudden is a half hour closer to Ogden. It killed the railroads and this was a railroad town. All of the businesses that are connected to the railroad, the stock yard and everything else. SL: Well, thank you, Van. I appreciate you taking the time out. VS: Well, you're welcome. 27

Edward and Floris Anderson ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; The following is an oral history interview with Edward Kemp Anderson. Mr. Anderson was born on December 20, 1925 and raised in Lewiston, Utah. This interview discusses his early life before, during and shortly after World War II. On December 21, 1943 Edward received his draft notice the day after his 18th birthday. Edward married his wife Floris on December 30, 1943 just before departing for military service. He continued to serve in the war until 1946, one year after the war ended. The interview was conducted on May 27, 2012 by his son, Michael Edward Anderson in the Anderson home in Washington, Utah. Also present during the interview is Edward�s wife, Floris Thomas Anderson. ; 78p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound discs: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; i Oral History Program Edward Kemp Anderson Interviewed by Michael Edward Anderson 27 May 2012 ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Edward Kemp Anderson Interviewed by Michael Edward Anderson 27 May 2012 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection includes interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories date back to the early settlement of North Ogden, and cover various topics including the History of Fort Buenaventura, city government affairs, controversial issues, Latinos in Ogden, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Edward Kemp Anderson, an oral history by Michael Edward Anderson, 27 May 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Edward and Floris Anderson Edward and Floris Anderson 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Edward Kemp Anderson. Mr. Anderson was born on December 20, 1925 and raised in Lewiston, Utah. This interview discusses his early life before, during and shortly after World War II. On December 21, 1943 Edward received his draft notice the day after his 18th birthday. Edward married his wife Floris on December 30, 1943 just before departing for military service. He continued to serve in the war until 1946, one year after the war ended. The interview was conducted on May 27, 2012 by his son, Michael Edward Anderson in the Anderson home in Washington, Utah. Also present during the interview is Edward's wife, Floris Thomas Anderson. MEA: I was just thinking that the World War II experience is part of our family history and I think that it needs to be written down and shared with all of us. Not necessarily blood and guts kind of stuff, I'm not going to ask you those kinds of things just simple history. I always think it's neat to hear about when you were gone that mom paid for a house, you know while you were gone. EKA: Bought a house while I was gone for eight-hundred dollars. FTA: Two years and—I don't remember how much the payments were. MEA: So when I go into Lewiston then I tell the kids, "You know, they lived right there, that little house near Theurer's Market. Mom bought and paid for that." It's neat for them to think, "We have roots in Lewiston." FTA: Great grandpa was in the front of that in the shoe shop, he mended shoes there. 2 MEA: I always tell them about Uncle Alma. We used to go over to the flower shop and that there was a greenhouse there and we used to run around and play in that. Now, they don't see that of course, it's just a house there in Lewiston so there's a lot of history. None of us has that. These are just simple questions to help us get going and see what you think. The first thing I was wondering was, what were you doing before you joined the military? You weren't very old. EKA: I was just working on the farm. Worked on the farm and hauled coal for Elburn Kent. That's about it. I worked at the sugar factory too, didn't I? FTA: Oh yeah, you worked at the sugar factory. EKA: Campaigned the last month or two, but was paid good money. MEA: What was good money back then? EKA: Oh gosh, a buck and a quarter a day. FTA: He would have been going to high school if he hadn't quit school to go to work. The teacher wouldn't let him make up for it, so he just threw his books out the window and took off. EKA: Beet season is when you could make a lot of money topping beets. They'd give us a two week beet vacation, is what they called it, which you have your Spring break now, but it was to go to work to help the farmers get their crop in. Back in our days, two weeks wasn't enough. I worked about a month and went back to school and asked all my teachers for makeup work. They'd all give me the makeup work but one. He said, "You'll just have to flunk." I asked, "What do you 3 mean?" He said, "You don't make up work in mine. You missed that two weeks of school, you can't do anything about it— it's gone." There was another guy in there that was trying to get me to quit school all year. He was sitting clear in the back and I was up at the desk and I said, "Hey Don, you still want to quit school?" He said, "I sure do." I said, "Let's get out of here." We went over to the window that was open and threw our books out the window and went, and that was the last day of school for me. MEA: Wow. How old were you? EKA: I was seventeen. I only had a year to go to graduate. MEA: Did you ever go back and finish it? EKA: No. MEA: No? Didn't have to? EKA: Back in our days, college was something that only the rich and famous went to, there were very few college degrees and you didn't need the education back then. Now, if you haven't got that education, you're out of luck, but back in those days, why, if I could drive a dump truck I could get a job any place I wanted. When I got out of the service I figured I'd be able to go right to work, and out of the service, they didn't even have dump trucks like I used to drive. Big Utes and all that kind of stuff, didn't know nothing about that. MEA: How old were you when the war started? EKA: Let's see, I'd be sixteen—fifteen I guess. 4 FTA: Sixteen. MEA: So it was going while you were still in school? EKA: Oh yeah. MEA: Did you get drafted? EKA: Yep, got drafted. FTA: All that stuff is in that book you wanted. MEA: We should get that out. FTA: We could get it out when we get through with this. MEA: Did you join when you were seventeen? EKA: No. I turned eighteen on the 20th of December, and I got my notice on the 21st of December. MEA: Wow. So you knew it was coming up? EKA: It was kind of a bad deal there. The people that were on the draft board were farmers up there in Lewiston. What they did is they deferred all the boys on the farm. Anytime they had somebody like me, they would grab them to try and fill the quota so they could keep their boys at home. So we didn't get much of a chance as they did on the farm. MEA: So you got drafted pretty quick? EKA: Oh yeah. 5 MEA: Where were you living? I know you were living in Lewiston, but you weren't attending school. Were you guys dating? What were you doing? EKA: Oh we were running around since we were sixteen, but we— FTA: Not really dating. EKA: There were four girls and there were four of us. We weren't really dating but we would always go every place together. FTA: We would ride bikes and play the "Kick-the-Can" games. Things kids do at that age. EKA: It's different than when we were kids though. There wasn't any television. FTA: There wasn't anything. EKA: The only thing we had was the radio. FTA: You made your own fun. EKA: A multi-line telephone. It's changed so much that back in those days, all we had was each other and those kids we are talking about. That's the only fun we had, we didn't have any toys or anything else to play with. Had each other to play with and that's it. MEA: Pretty much married kids within the town. You dated and married in town. EKA: I got back out of the service and tried to make a living up in Lewiston. It wasn't there, so I moved to Ogden. I got a job and did like you, I drove a whole week. I 6 came back after one week and I wouldn't drive that distance for nobody. Of course, she was very good. She agreed with everything. So, I moved to Ogden. There weren't any places to rent so I was living in a chicken coup. Finally, I got a place to rent and we drove down. I just wouldn't drive that distance. FTA: That's when I was pregnant with Cathy. EKA: I'd come over Sardine Canyon, the old canyon. It was quite treacherous. The roads were slick and everything and I'd been driving for a week. I left Logan and I remember leaving Logan, but the next thing I remember was the lights in Brigham. We used to have to drive through Brigham, you didn't cut it off. I don't ever remember going over that canyon and right then I said, "That's my last trip." Not going to drive all those miles. Too many hours and not enough sleep. Too dangerous. Me and two other guys moved down to Ogden until we could find a place and bring our wives. MEA: Do you remember how you felt about the war in Europe, prior to Pearl Harbor? Actually, I guess Pearl Harbor was probably a big thing. EKA: You know when you're just a kid you don't really think about that stuff much. FTA: You don't know politics like they do now. You just do what you're told. EKA: We didn't have information. You can get worldwide information now instantly, and we didn't have all that. We didn't hear about all those things. Sure, you heard about Pearl Harbor, but that's about it. I mean, Japs attacked Pearl Harbor. Now 7 they'll tell you blow by blow, but we didn't have that back then. News was not any more than what they had to tell you. MEA: Just got newspaper once in a while? EKA: I had newspaper and radio. FTA: My folks never took a newspaper. We had a radio. MEA: What was the feeling back then? Sometimes you hear about Vietnam and how everybody was trying to avoid the draft. It seems like back then they were a little more patriotic about things. EKA: I believe it was more patriotic back then than it has been. But then, World War II, we had to fight it. They attacked at us, we had to fight it. Vietnam—and I can't even think of some of the others—Iraq and all this stuff, we didn't have to do that. We momentarily did it, and World War II is the only war we've won. All these others we've lost. Every one of them we lost. There's never been surrender since World War II. In World War II, Japan and Germany both surrendered. We won those wars, but these others they didn't. MEA: Just kind of declared we've had enough and that was the end of it. EKA: Yeah. MEA: Did you have a choice of what military service to join? EKA: Yes, I could've gone to any of them, Army, Navy or Marines. There wasn't any Air Force then; it was Army Air Force. I don't know why I went in the Army. I 8 always liked the water, and when I went down there they said, "You're physically conditioned and you can take your choice. Anything you want." I walked right up to the Navy desk, turned, and went over and signed up for the Army. MEA: Really? EKA: I'm alive so I guess I made the right choice. MEA: You made the right choice. Did you plan on the Navy all along then? EKA: We didn't know anything until they said, "You're eligible," so I didn't have a big plan. I liked the water and I thought I'd make a lot better Navy man than I would anything else, then I went and signed up for the Army. MEA: Where'd you go to join? Not there in Cache Valley, did you? EKA: Logan. MEA: Right in Logan? They just had a recruiter's office or something? EKA: There's a recruiters office in Logan. In fact, we left from Logan. I got on the train in Logan and went in the service. Of course, we just went to Ft. Douglas for a start, then from there to Texas. MEA: Was Texas a big camp? EKA: Camp Fannin, Texas. MEA: What did you think it would be like there? FTA: It was nothing but sand. 9 EKA: Only place I've ever been in my life where I could walk in the water up to my knees and have the sand blowing in my face at the same time. It wasn't a real good place. They didn't use up good ground for Army bases, they were just out on the sand. MEA: How long was boot camp? EKA: Six months, then overseas. I thought I was safe for a while because at that time they had a deal that said they can't send you overseas until your nineteen. They couldn't send you overseas as a replacement until your 19, but they can send you over if you're already assigned. So, I was overseas for three or four months before I turned nineteen. MEA: I can't imagine being that young and right in the middle of that stuff at eighteen years old. EKA: Just snot-nosed kids, that's all we were. MEA: Where did they send you first? EKA: We landed in Marsai, France. We hit the front line in the Vosges Mountains of France. They're mountains like High Creek— cold. We spent the winter in the Vosges Mountains. It was pretty chilly. EKA: Yeah, her and mom sent me a nice Christmas. A nice bathrobe and slippers and I was in a foxhole. FTA: The one thing you got that you really liked was that Bells candy. She made sure you had that. 10 EKA: Yeah she made homemade candy and it was sure good. She made it for the Bluebird in Logan. Then she'd send it over to me. MEA: Did you get any special training in camp to be prepared? EKA: Well, yes, I took a lot of demolitions training and went to an A&P (Ammunitions Pioneer) platoon after I finished basic training. It was a little different in the fact that you did patrol work all the time and diffused mines and stuff like that. We knew how to use explosives. One time, we ran into a dynamite cellar and the lieutenant wanted me to go in there and take that dynamite out. He said, "You have the dynamite, take the dynamite out." I said, "No problem." I kicked the door down and it should have blown up. I looked in there and the nitro was dripping out of those dynamite sticks. I just backed out of there right quick. He said, "Well that's a direct order." I said, "Then fire me. I won't go in there and touch that dynamite. I'll blow it up, but I won't touch it." Another officer came by that knew what was going on and chewed that officer out and let me off the hook. Once that nitroglycerin comes out of your stick and a drop of it gets on the floor, it explodes. MEA: Wow. EKA: I handled explosives and stuff, but also every time you'd lose people on the line they'd replace them with us until they could get replacements. We spent a lot of time on the front lines. If they'd get hit real heavy, they might lose fifty or sixty people. They'd send us up and we would take their place until they'd get replacements up there. You've got to have so many people up there or they'll walk over you. 11 MEA: Who were you serving under then? EKA: General Patch in the 7th Army. Patton had the 7th, then they took that away from him and gave him the 3rd Army and gave Patch the 7th. MEA: Were you in France all the time? EKA: France and Germany. Mostly Germany because we fought out of France that winter. We busted out of France and got into Germany. When we were in France, it was actually easier because you fought around the towns in France. You tried to preserve France. But when we got to Germany, we fought right in the towns up there and were blowing the towns up. We didn't care if we blew the German towns up or not, but, we tried to conserve as much as we could in France. We lost a lot of people because you didn't want to blow this building down, or this church house, or that cathedral up on the hill. They'd want you to preserve them. All the time that's where the snipers were. So, we tried to take them without blowing them up and it'd get a lot of people killed. MEA: Can you tell me about your most memorable experience? EKA: It's a funny thing. Most of the stuff I don't even remember. I didn't remember right after it. If you read my bronze star, for example, I can remember everything about that. I can remember getting these people who were wounded. I have no idea how I got them out of the town. I have no idea how we got back to the line. It's all a blank. I don't know I guess there are certain things we just blank out on and we don't remember them. A lot of the things I can think of some of the stuff. After this 12 longer period when I think about something I think, "How did that ever happen?" or "Am I dreaming?" There's a lot of stuff that I don't know. MEA: Maybe it's kind of a blessing. EKA: Oh, I think it is. I think it is. It happened several times to me, but that was the biggest thing. We had twenty-eight people that we rescued out of that town. I can remember the Germans were moving out and there was a big convoy. We were just hiding from Germans and trying to find these wounded people and we found them, and I can't remember anything else. MEA: Was that in France or in Germany? EKA: That was in Germany. Well, I'm not sure. It was still winter. It could have been France. We could have still been up in the Vosges Mountains. MEA: Did you just get word that there were some people down and you had to get them out? EKA: We lost Charter Company. We lost C-company, the whole company. They wanted a volunteer group to go see if they could find them and I volunteered. Not to be a hero, but because I was freezing to death. I was in that foxhole and they said they were looking for volunteers, "Take me." We got out of the foxhole and we walked all night long. I don't know how many miles. Twenty miles or so I'd imagine. We pulled into that town and we had lost the whole company. There were 28 people left in the whole company. MEA: How many are in a company? 13 EKA: Oh gosh, I don't know. I don't remember. That's just a small amount, anyway. MEA: Was that part of that article I read? It was a newspaper article I read that mom showed me in the book of remembrance. It talked about a Lewiston boy. Is that the time you volunteered? EKA: That was the first time she found out I was in combat. MEA: Really? FTA: We weren't smart enough I guess. EKA: Salt Lake Tribune. FTA: We wrote letters back and forth all the time, but— EKA: The war was just about over when they came out, so there wasn't much left. There is so much that I don't remember. I remember just before the war ended I got the shakes real bad and hid it from the Lieutenant for a long time. We'd go out on patrol and I was fine, but I'd come back and sit down and just start shaking. He caught me one day and he said he was sending me back to rest camp. I said, "No you're not, the war is going to end any day and I want to be with the guys. I'm not going to get killed after what I've been through." He said, "I'm not worried about you getting killed. I'm worried about killing the guys who could kill me. Get on the truck and get out of here." I went back to rest camp and the war did end while I was back in rest camp. I wanted to be with the company when the war ended, but I wasn't. I was in rest camp. I had only been back there 14 a couple of days when the war ended. I wanted to be up there on the front lines when the war ended, but I was back in Marsai, France. MEA: Was it a hospital kind of place? EKA: Well, it was just a rest area. Just vacation to go back there and have nice hotels and stuff. Good places for you to stay with three meals a day and just rest, that's all. MEA: What was it like to hear the war ended? Must have been quite a celebration. EKA: Those French people. They got the news before we did. We were eating supper and all of a sudden those French gals working in there got screaming and running around and we found out it was over. It was an experience you could say. There hadn't been any street lights on in Marsai, France for years, and they turned the lights on. People were out there in droves just looking at the lights. French people. I'm too soft-hearted, Mike. Not much I can talk about. Cathy wanted me to do something or talk about temple and I can't talk about the temple. There are so many miracles. When you're working in the temple, you see them happen every day, but you just can't talk about it. MEA: Some things are just too sacred. FTA: They are. You try to tell somebody and you can't do it. MEA: Sometimes I think the Lord blesses us with experiences that he expects us to keep to ourselves too. EKA: Well, that's probably true too. 15 MEA: Whenever there's a time you have an opportunity to share it and you feel impressed that it's what the Lord wants you to do, that's when you do it. I can't imagine being in an area where the lights were always out because they'd been fearful of the enemy and then to see them. FTA: They had blackouts. You couldn't even have lights on in the house when you guys were blacked out. EKA: I got to see a lot of Germany. After the war was over, the division came home and I didn't have enough points to come home. So, they transferred me to the third division, 15th infantry. I drove a truck all over Germany for almost a year before I got enough points to come home. I had enough points to get discharged, but I didn't have enough points to get on the ship. You figure how many people they'd send overseas. Millions of soldiers over there taking seniority rides to bring them back. They didn't fly anybody. We rode boats back. Ships are all you had back in those days. They had a few aircraft, but nothing they could move a whole bunch of people with. The officers would get to fly back, but we just had to wait until there was room on the boats and the ships so we could come back. I had to spend almost a year— nine to ten months—driving a truck over there. They did that for me, they changed my MOS number to a truck driver. I said, "If I've got to stay over here I don't want to walk around with a rifle on my shoulder, I want to do something else. Give me a military driver's license, I'll drive." I never drove a five speed transmission and 10-wheeler. I figured out of all the other vehicles in the service, I want to get one of them I can drive. Of course, I got a 10-wheeler. 16 Spent all night long in the motor pool that night and drove that truck around the motor pool finding where all the gears were. MEA: You ever remember any of the men in your units? Ever keep in contact with them? EKA: No, I hear about more recently in the Marines, they have get-togethers and all that kind of stuff. We never did get close to each other. You get too close then it's too hard to lose them. So, I just never made too many friends. I had a couple of friends though. Ira Sally, he was a professional wrestler. He was my buddy I went with him all the time. Just never did get close to them. Reece, gosh, their whole company knew each other and knew them by name and everything. I never did do that. We just stayed by ourselves. Didn't want to make good friends because you make a good friend and then you'd lose them. It was just easier not to make them in the first place. What you want me to talk about in comparison to what there is today it just— MEA: It's so much different when you look at what happens when a soldier is out on the battlefields now compared to what it was like when you were there. I mean, now they have all these modern things and can fight a war with enemies that they don't even see from a distance. That wasn't the case for you guys. EKA: That's true. MEA: You think about back in Book of Mormon times it was even worse than that because it was hand to hand with swords and spears. I think the loss of life because of what wasn't available to you then is certainly different than now. 17 EKA: Even what you see on television. Thousands of men on each side back in biblical days. They'd come together and kill thousands and there would be thousands of people laying all over. It wasn't that bad. MEA: I was just wondering if you ever received any medals and citations. You talk about the bronze star, what was that? EKA: That was for going beyond and above the line of duty, but it just depends on where you are and what time it is. Everybody does spectacular things when they have to. Some of us got cited for it and some of us didn't. I could have got a Purple Heart, but I was always against that Purple Heart. If you get killed you get a Purple Heart. If you cut your finger, you get a Purple Heart. I never did think much of the Purple Heart for that reason because there were some recipients that really earned it, but then there were some of them that just got it as a gift. We were out in our three quarter ton truck carrying some ammo and a bunch specialized stuff and we hit a land mine. It blew one front wheel right off the vehicle and blew us all out of the vehicle. We were all bruised up and we could hardly move. The guy that was driving, it's cold there of course and he had put a regular winter glass, house glass and a piece of plywood across there for a door on the truck. That glass broke and cut his face. One thing about a Purple Heart, you have to draw blood to have a Purple Heart. That guy that was driving the truck inside that got a little scratch on his face got a Purple Heart. The rest of us just almost got killed back there but we didn't draw blood so we didn't get a Purple Heart. 18 MEA: You just drove over a mine? EKA: Yeah. MEA: Well, we kind of talked about what everyday life was like there that's for sure. I always think it's interesting when you were talking about mom sending that gift over and not knowing where you are. It's kind of interesting that they didn't allow you to say, "This is where I am." They didn't allow that? EKA: Well I could have told her. I couldn't have told her the exact location, but I could have told her what I was doing and everything. FTA: They censored your letter. EKA: I just didn't want her and mom and dad to know that I was getting shot at. FTA: They black it out. They didn't let it come through. MEA: So you actually got letters? EKA: I'd send letters. Well, I'd say I sent her letters all the time, but she probably got twenty or thirty letters in one bunch. I'd get the same from her, a whole stack of letters. I hadn't had any letters for a month and then I'd get a whole month's supply of letters. FTA: You'd try to write every day, but what is there every day? MEA: People would write to you but it'd be months before you actually received the letter? How did you know what was going on at home? 19 EKA: Didn't. We didn't know after we got over there. FTA: Probably just as well because then you wouldn't worry about all that. Worry about yourself there. MEA: I'd get homesick wondering what was going on at home. EKA: You do, but I think the whole thing is the Lord just takes care of you. As far as being scared is concerned, when I got the letter that said, "Greetings," I was scared until I got home, but nothing that I couldn't handle. Like I said, I think the Lord just takes care of you and makes it to where you can do what you have to do, that's all. EKA: Some guys got sick on the boat over. They didn't think they were going to make it. Thought they were going to die from sea sickness. We had two guys in our outfit that they took off the boat on a stretcher. I mean, they were so weak they hadn't eaten. We were on the water for fifteen days and they hadn't done anything but throw up for fifteen days. I never got sick. I was hungry all the time. All of them got sick. That's fine because then I could go down to mess hall and get anything I wanted. MEA: Did you always have enough to eat? EKA: No. On the boat we did. They only fed you two meals a day, but they were substantial meals. MEA: I remember one time I was asking you about Christmas and you told me that you were able to get a good turkey dinner. 20 EKA: President Roosevelt said that every man would get a turkey dinner on Christmas and we did. Oh man, I hadn't had a meal for months. Just cold sea rations and K rations. Ate this meal and we were all just sick, but it sure tasted good going down. They had jeeps and they'd bring food up in jeeps as close as they could get and then hand carry it the rest of the way to the front line. We got our hot meal. MEA: What was Christmas like? Just another day? EKA: Just another day. You see some of these picture shows where the Germans and the Americans both back off, but I never did see it. MEA: Didn't happen for you, huh? EKA: No, just one day the same as another. MEA: Did you have any reminders of home with you? Did you carry anything? Picture from mom? EKA: No, I don't believe I did. FTA: Yeah you did, I think. EKA: I don't know. Did I? I probably did. FTA: He threw them all away when he landed at Ft. Douglas. He threw everything away. EKA: It was coming back, not going over. See, you weren't allowed to carry anything that they could identify you by. If you got picked up you weren't supposed to have 21 anything in your pockets or anything like that. Not a picture or an address or anything like that. All you had to do was say your name, rank and serial number when you got picked up. So we didn't really carry anything. FTA: Had your dog tags and that's it, wasn't it? EKA: Oh yeah, I carried them. That's the same thing as giving your name and serial number is all. So they could identify you when you get your head blown off. MEA: When we were just little boys that you bought us some Springfield 30-06 military rifles. You used to tell me that in the winter those were pretty reliable, but those automatics weren't so good in the winter. What did you carry? Did you switch out? EKA: I switched for a couple months there. I happened to find one. They didn't issue them. The snipers use that Springfield like I got you guys. MEA: With the peep sight? EKA: No, it didn't have fancy scopes on them. I could knock the scope off because I couldn't use that and use a peep sight just exactly like the ones you have. MEA: When I couldn't shoot? EKA: I don't know, dog gone thing. That sight fell apart and everything else. You had the worst luck when it comes to guns. FTA: Guns? Not only guns, everything he got. 22 MEA: I just know dad's a dead eye shot with that peep sight. I couldn't hit anything and he shot a porcupine off a tree and said, "There ain't nothing wrong with that gun." So, you're a pretty good shot. EKA: Well, it was the same peep sight on the M-1, on the automatic too. MEA: Oh really? EKA: That's the same sight that all your military weapons had. So it wasn't like changing sights, it was the same thing. MEA: So you used an M-1 and then you used the Springfield? EKA: Yeah. They'd freeze up and you could hardly open them. The bolt, you could grab that and even if it's frozen up you could grab that and open it. It only had 5 shots and the M-1 had 8. At the same time, I'd rather have five that I know will shoot than 8 that I didn't know if they would or not. I think you've seen in some of your war shows— guys pounding on their M-1—trying to get them to open so they could get them cocked and shoot. MEA: Not too reliable. EKA: They probably were, probably what you get in your own mind. At times I didn't know, but I'm sure it was very few. All they have to do is not open once and your show is over. I went to a Springfield for a month or two there. In fact, I mostly didn't carry an M-1, I carried a Carbine. MEA: Oh really? 23 EKA: Yeah, I carried the Carbine because we usually had other stuff to carry besides just the rifle. We carried Carbines so we could carry ammo. When we'd go on patrol we'd like to go on patrol with the Carbine a Grease Gun, or a little automatic. Full automatic Grease guns is what they'd call them. That's just what they looked like is a little Grease gun with an iron stalk and everything. A lot of times when you go on patrol you were just trying not to let the Germans rest and keep them scared. You'd go up there and the artillery observers would spot a congregation of them. They'd take a patrol in there, sneak up on them, throw a couple of hand grenades and empty out a couple of those guns. Then they'd turn and run and we'd stay and fight. We'd just turn and run back for the line. So when they lay down and tried to get a little rest, in the back of their mind they're thinking, "Are those guys going to come and bother us again?" We'd just keep them nervous and worried all the time. I carried a full automatic for a while and called in a raid platoon. All we did was go out and raid camps like that. That was good duty too. You talk about food, we'd have to go out every night in front of the line companies and in the day time we went behind the lines and got hot meals. That was pretty good. As long as we didn't mess up and give ourselves away, you figured, those guys we were raiding weren't shooting back. You're looking for someone to shoot at so you go throw grenades and shoot a couple of clips of the automatic and take off. Those guys are still docked, they're not trying to shoot back. By the time they wise up, we're gone. As long as we didn't get caught going through the lines getting back through there. That was pretty good because we'd get good hot meals. 24 MEA: I know you've seen the movies with Bob Hope when he does the USO shows. Did you ever see any of them? EKA: I've seen one of them. MEA: Did you? Who did you see? EKA: Bob Hope. In fact, he was late to the show because he tried to run a road block and they shot at him. Shot the gas tank out. Stupid. He put on a good show. It was their dirty show, but not real dirty. Well, today they would be clean shows, but back then they were dirty shows. He put on a real good show. I don't remember the girl that he had with him, but he had girls and he told some jokes. Some of the jokes were pretty raunchy and some of the girls would leave you a lot of thoughts to think about what they were thinking. The everyday movies are worse now than the Bob Hope shows back in those days. For instance, Bob Hope got an awful big fine on the radio before they had television. He said, "The new women's swimsuit is going to consist of two thimbles and a cork." They cut him off, but it was too late. He got it out before he got cut off. Oh man, was he ever reprimanded and got a big stiff fine for saying that thing. MEA: Things were different then. EKA: Nobody would think anything about that now. Back then that was a terrible thing to say. MEA: I just remember watching the variety shows with you back in the good old days when they had them, and always watching Bob Hope T.V. 25 EKA: I only got to see one of his shows, but I did get to see one. He put on a show in Stuttgart, Germany when we were there. MEA: Did you ever play any pranks on your buddies? EKA: Not to speak of, but they were pulled that's for sure. MEA: Did you ever get to come home? EKA: Once. After I finished basic training, I got to come home one time and that was it. MEA: Once you went overseas that was it? EKA: I went overseas and stayed there until I got discharged. MEA: How long were you there? You said you had to drive trucks for nine months. EKA: I was overseas about a year and a half. MEA: What were you doing all that time, Mom? Just worrying? FTA: Working. That's when I worked for Dr. Kragen. My first family. EKA: I never realized how much of the stuff I forgot all about until you asked me questions. Most of it left me. Well, that was a few years ago. FTA: Well, that was over sixty years ago. MEA: What was the year when you went? EKA: Forty-four. FTA: We were married on the 30th of December of 1943. 26 MEA: So you'd been married a year? EKA: Before I went in? Just a couple of months. MEA: Really? Married a couple months and then away you went? That's not time to have a relationship. FTA: No. I don't know if we'd have done it differently. We'd done it because he was leaving and they had a special section at the temple for military. That's why ours is on the 30th. EKA: The temple was closed, but they opened it up for one day for the military guys. MEA: A bunch of you just showed up and went through your endowments and you got married after? FTA: At Logan Temple. You had to climb up all those stairs. Back then you couldn't get anything like a wedding dress or anything. This other couple had a veil made out of that knit stuff and every step she took to go up there she'd rip, rip, rip. She'd step on it. They were the first to get married and when the guy told them to kiss, they gave a big smack. Grandma Anderson said, "Don't you do that." She didn't want to get embarrassed. It was quite a deal that day. A special day. A day to remember. MEA: Were you in a wedding dress and everything? EKA: No, she didn't have one. She borrowed the clothes that she got married in. FTA: Aunt Ivy gave me a blouse and a skirt. 27 EKA: A blouse and a white skirt. FTA: The rest was just the temple issued. MEA: Do you remember the sealer? EKA: I don't. FTA: It's probably on our marriage license. MEA: Where'd you go on your honeymoon? FTA: Salt Lake on the Galloping Goose MEA: What's the Galloping Goose? EKA: A train that used to go to Lewiston—the Utah Idaho Central. MEA: Is that where you got on? EKA: No we got on in Logan and stayed at the temple square hotel. FTA: We stayed there also when he came home. Didn't we? EKA: No, we stayed at…I can't remember the name of it now. FTA: New House. EKA: New House Hotel. Mom and dad got us a room there. We did stay at the temple square hotel. In fact, when we stayed there it was a brand new hotel. It hadn't been opened very long. FTA: We didn't even know where to go to eat or anything. 28 MEA: I was going to ask you, what did you do for your honeymoon? Go out to eat? Go to a movie? FTA: We went about two feet and then to the hotel because we were scared we'd get lost. EKA: Country hicks. We were afraid we'd get lost if we went any place. There was a drug store on the corner there that had pretty good food; we'd eat there most of the time. We didn't do much of anything. FTA: Well, I've never been any place in my life. MEA: So, Salt Lake was quite an adventure? FTA: I'd been to Salt Lake once when my grandma took me. EKA: We rode on that Galloping Goose and when we got to Salt Lake, we got off the train and were afraid we'd get lost so we hailed a cab down. I said, "Can you take us to the temple square hotel?" He said, "Yeah, it's right there." The old Vanberger station, there was just an alley between that and the temple square hotel. We got off the train about twenty feet from the train was the hotel. MEA: They knew you were from out of town. FTA: There was this box on the wall, we didn't know what it was and we didn't dare mess with it. Finally, found out it was the radio, wasn't it? 29 EKA: Well, it wasn't the radio it was just a speaker. What they had was a central place where they could play music, and you just had to push the button on the box. I didn't know whether it was for room service or what it was. FTA: What was it that we were just laughing about? Oh, somebody next door was celebrating the New Year and light was showing through. We were laughing our heads off. Remember? Trying to listen to what was going on in the other room. EKA: We went to one station while we were there. I can't remember where we went, but we went to a live show. MEA: How long were you in Salt Lake? EKA: I think we stayed there two nights. FTA: Then, we went back home and stayed with his parents until he left. EKA: Yeah, we stayed with mom and dad until I left. MEA: How long? EKA: A couple months. When I got home, I owned a home. She had bought a home. MEA: For eight-hundred dollars. FTA: His uncle gave us a stove. I bought a kitchen set and a bedroom set. Mother and dad gave us a couch. Back in those days, we didn't even have a fridge. We had an ice box. EKA: I don't think we had a telephone, did we? 30 FTA: No. EKA: I didn't think so. Now, you've got these things here that… MEA: I know. When you got home did you stay and work in Lewiston, or is that when you left? EKA: I stayed in Lewiston for a couple of years, but just couldn't make enough money. FTA: We tried the floral business. EKA: We bought into the floral business with Uncle Al and Aunt Ida. There just wasn't enough money there. Both of us got out of that and I worked as an auto mechanic up there at the Jim Bridge for a while. FTA: That and the sugar factory. EKA: I took the sugar factory and I drove a dump truck down the road from Richmond to Trenton on those back roads. I helped build those back roads. I was working at the sugar factory and driving dump truck. I got scared and quit the dump truck. I wasn't getting hardly any sleep at all. I'd go down there, take out that dump truck and go dump my load. I'd come back in we'd be talking and they'd say, "Boy, did you see that big herd of cows on the side of the road?" I didn't see them. One time I came back there and they said, "Those kids are going to get killed playing on the side of the road there." I never saw those kids. Right then I decided, "I can't be doing this. I've got to quit." I'd work graveyard at the sugar factory from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. and had to be at the dump truck from 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 31 p.m. The guys would cover for me for that last five to ten minutes while I'd go get on the other job. I was only home about five hours a day. It just wasn't enough. MEA: What was it like coming home? When the war was ended and you came home, was there welcome in the community? Or you just came home? EKA: No, just came home. They showed all that stuff about World War II and the big parade back at New York, but that wasn't anybody that had been in combat. They were the state side "Joes" that never went overseas in the first place. They had a whole bunch of big celebrations, but we were fighting people and we didn't have any celebrations at all. We went quiet and we came back quiet. FTA: I don't know if they had anything in Ogden. EKA: Seemed to me like you said they did because you said that Craig had taken you there. I think it was in Ogden they took you and they had a parade or something. They did right after the war ended though. They had some celebrations, but when I went, I went all quiet and when I came back, I came back all quiet. Only trouble I had was I couldn't take any prisoners to Uncle Ed on the farm. They had a German prisoner of war camp in Preston and they'd use these prisoners up on the farm. Uncle Ed was having a rough time and I was helping him all I could. I said, "Let's go get some prisoners." He said, "They won't work." I said "Oh yes they will, I guarantee you they'll work." So he said, "Alright, let's go." Had to be armed, so I went and got my shot gun and we went to Preston. We got ten of them all ready to go and they found out I was just out of the service from Germany and they wouldn't let me have them. They were afraid I'd kill them. 32 FTA: Yeah, they'd top beets right next door to the Doctors where I worked we'd watch them out there topping beets? MEA: It's interesting that they'd bring them all the way there to Lewiston from Preston. EKA: Yeah that was a prisoner of war camp in Preston. MEA: They must spread them all around the country. EKA: Yeah they were. FTA: Not in one place. EKA: I don't know why they were still there because that was a year after the war was over. They hadn't sent them home or something. I don't remember what the deal was, but I know when I first got out of the service they had a prisoner of war camp in Preston. Crazy world. FTA: You're getting a history lesson. MEA: I didn't know that at all. MEA: We're going to look at this book of remembrance and dads going to share some of the things he remembers about the stuff that mom saved. EKA: That's Ira Sally, the professional wrestler that used to know. MEA: He used to tell us a little bit about him. Is this over in France? EKA: In Germany. MEA: In Germany where it's all bombed out? 33 EKA: I didn't even know you had all those pictures of me. FTA: It's not something you have out every day. EKA: You can see that we're real smart taking pictures, aren't we? All those shadows; can't see anything anyway. This is in Germany. MEA: You really bombed them out it looks like. EKA: I have a hard time seeing much about it. This is showing you everything pretty much bombed out. Their fortresses are houses over there. They're all cement rock and cement houses with walls a foot and half thick. Nowadays it wouldn't mean very much, but back when a flight of B-17's went over Stuttgart, they would spend 3 minutes over Stuttgart and level it. The whole town was leveled in 3 minutes. Now, they shoot one shell over there and level it. Back then that was a lot of bombs they used over there. That picture right there, for example, that's the Carbine I carried. That's a German pistol I had at the time. A guy offered me more money for that pistol than what it was worth. MEA: This is an article that I don't know if I've seen. It says, "Lewiston Man was Cited With the 100th Division of the 7th Army in Germany 1st Battalion Headquarters Company. The 398th infantry has been awarded the Meritorious Service Unit Plaque. EKA: Meritorious Service Wreath, I forgot that. That's the one that's on the sleeve. I don't know whether you took that off or not too. She stripped my jacket and all my ribbons and everything on it. She took all that stuff off and I didn't know how 34 to put it back on. It was put on there in the right places by the right people and she took it all off and washed it. Its wool and it shrunk. It was half big enough for me after she got through with it. I'd like to have had that. FTA: That was a terrible thing to do. I was trying to be so nice. EKA: I don't even know what awards I received. I forgot about that Meritorious Service Wreath. MEA: It says, "By direction of the President… the Meritorious Service Unit Plaque is awarded to the First Battalion Headquarters Company, 398th Infantry for superior performance of duty and achievement of a high standard discipline. The 100th (Century) Division, of which the 398th Infantry is a part, fought through the Vosges Mountains in France, cracking the proposed German Winter line there, seiged the famous Maginot Line city of Bitche for three months and finally captured it for the first time in the city's two-hundred years history. Breached the Siegfried Line and drew the Germans on the Southern end of the Western front back across the Rhine River at Ludwigshafen and deep into Southern Germany. Most recently, before the wars end in Europe, the 100th had captured the key Nazi rail and communications center of Heilbronn, after a bitter nine day battle. The fanatical German stand at the city 100,000 was called the most determined defense the Nazis put up of their homes soil. Later, the 100th cooperated with the first French Army. EKA: There's the whole thing right there. MEA: You didn't remember that? 35 EKA: Bitche, France was why we had such a hard time taking that. There's a big cave up above the town there and they'd take 88 artillery guns. They had two 88's up there and they'd shoot direct fire at you. It's a shell about that big around and any time we moved, they'd shoot at us like that and we couldn't knock them out. Finally, we did. I guess that must have been an enormous cave because Sally Berlin, we'd listen to her when we'd get a chance. We went up above on top of the mountains and led charges down on rope and blew the cave up and Sally Berlin came on that night and said we got the name of the "Bloody Butchers of Bitche" because they said we killed over two-hundred people in that cave. They had a fort in that town, an old Robin Hood type fort and they supplied the Maginot Line. It was talking about that in there. They had underground all the way to these pillboxes they could send people or guns or ammunition and anything they wanted from that fort. They'd come up from under the ground. Everything was underground. Bitche was Maginot Line, but the Siegfried Line was the same thing. They had a central place, we'd go there and hit those pillboxes and take them. Figure everything was taken and go on through to the next row of pillboxes. We'd be getting shot at from the ones we just cleared and we couldn't figure out how. That's how, because we'd get too hot for them and they'd leave the pillboxes. We'd get there and throw hand grenades in there which would kill anything in the pillboxes, but they wouldn't be in there. After we'd get by they'd go back up in the pillboxes and start shooting at us again. "Bloody Butchers of Bitche." MEA: That was quite a big deal then to get that handed. 36 EKA: Yeah, that was a rough stand there we had. We lost a lot of people in that. The "Bloody Butchers of Bitche." MEA: She was a German radio announcer? EKA: Yeah, that was just amazing. We landed at Marsai, France and took all our patches and everything off before we left the states. Everything was top secret. We landed in Marsai and Sally Berlin came on the radio and welcomed the 100th Division. They knew all about us. They knew how many of us there was and they knew where we were going to go, where we were going to hit the front lines. They knew everything. We just laughed about it because everything turned out that way. Your people tell you that they'd make the password up to five days in advance. She said, "Get your pencils and papers out. Here's your password for the next thirty days." And she was right. MEA: So they knew everything. EKA: Knew everything about us. That deal called us the "Bloody Butchers of Bitche," it wasn't 30 minutes after we blew that cave up that she'd come on the radio and tell us what was done and how many people were in that cave. MEA: Enemy behind your lines or something. EKA: She did us a lot of good really. We just loved to listen to her programs. She played music on it all the time and do you think your loved ones are waiting for you back there and all that kind of stuff. We just got a kick out of it and we loved the music she played, so it was just very interesting. When we landed in Marsai, 37 France, she came right on the radio told us we'd landed and that we were going to meet German crack troops in the Vosges Mountains in France and that's exactly where we went. How she knew, I don't know. There had to be somebody on our side of the line who was feeding her information. A spy of some kind. She knew a lot more than we did. We didn't know where we were going, but she sure did. MEA: This other thing says, "Edward K. Anderson 3-9-9-2-6-8-8-5 Private 1st Class 398th Infantry Regiment for Meritorious Achievement in action during the period of 6 November 1944 to the 23rd of April 1945 in France and Germany as an ammunition bearer in an ammunition and pioneer platoon. Private Anderson performed his duties commendably throughout this period of combat operations. He displayed outstanding courage and was initiative on 5th December near Lincoln, France where 6 members of his platoon, he helped to evacuate six casualties under intense enemy fire for several hours aided his comrades in riding off a desperate hostile counterattack. The repelling of which substantially contributed to the capture of Wingen. He entered military service from Lewiston, Utah." MEA: So, your dog tag number, you remember it still? EKA: 3-9-9-2-6-8-8-5. MEA: Here's another group of you in the mountains. It says, "Just outside Bitche, just before we made our attack on the 15th of March. There's a pillbox behind us that were in for borage of artillery. Just came in and the German planes striked and 38 so the battered pillbox looks pretty good." So it's a picture of a pillbox, group of you around it. I wouldn't have known what a pillbox was if you hadn't told me. There's a pretty handsome guy with his shirt off. It says, "My darling, the paper's not very good, so I am sending the magazine with all the pictures." These look like pictures of France and some of the sites. Cathedrals. FTA: Why don't you see that sketch of your dad? MEA: I saw that. Who did that? FTA: Who did that for you? Do you remember? MEA: There's a name on it but I can't read it. MEA: It says Sally. FTA: I wondered if he was an artist. MEA: Who was Sally? EKA: Don't remember that either. EKA: He was a professional wrestler. His wife got after him until he had to give it up. Then he went into show business. Got him a little band called, "Yodeling Ike and the Texas Rangers." He said, "There wasn't any one of us that'd been to Texas." "Yodeling Ike and the Texas Rangers." He could yodel that's for sure. MEA: "So it's your first day in the Army and you want a raise in pay? Certainly its worth more now after I learned the work would be easier." You've got a bunch of postcards. 39 MEA: Here's another article on the 100th. "Once again the Wheel of Fortune brings the 100th division rest inside the fold of VI Corps guiding sentry division for the third time with the headquarters under which it received its baptism of fire. In war, Major General Withers a duress 100th division, served twice under the Veteran Corps direction. First, upon entering the line in November 1941, in the Vosges Mountains and last in the struggle for Heilbronn in March and April of this year, separated and ordered under other control in each of these campaigns, the division recently became an occupational unit of the headquarters. The woods were dense and the hills steep in Vosges." EKA: Sergeant Ingel Britson was the platoon sergeant. Lieutenant Jamson was a Lieutenant. He was the one that sent me to the rest camp that said he's not worried about me getting shot he's worried about me shooting the guys going to shoot him. MEA: It talks about the atomic bomb. Were you back home by then? EKA: No, when they dropped the atomic bomb, the 100th division hadn't come home then. We were preparing to go to Japan, but decided to stay there when they dropped the atomic bomb and ended the war. The 100th division came home and I didn't have enough points to come home. MEA: So after all you been through there getting you prepared to go, another one? EKA: If they hadn't used the atomic bomb we probably would have made it over there, but they figured a lot of people were going to get killed when we get to Japan. We didn't have to get Japan, they surrendered before we had. 40 MEA: This says, "August 6th, President Truman today announced that an atomic bomb has been used against Japan for the first time with power equal to 20,000 tons of TNT. In a statement issued at the White House, Mr. Truman revealed that sixteen hours ago, sometime Sunday, and American airplane dropped one of the new bombs on Hiroshima, an important Japanese Army base. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons. He said it had more than 2,000 times the blast power of British grand slam which is the largest bomb ever in the history of warfare." EKA: A lot of history in that book right there. MEA: I'll say. You have a German swastika. Japan surrenders. BJ Day. MacArthur. Douglas MacArthur must have been there. You have a long thing called, "Loving a Soldier." A poem? Here's your citation for the Bronze Star. This is the same one that I read. FTA: I can't believe there's so much history in that book. MEA: You got a recommendation for the Sustained Superior Performance Award. "Twenty-five Aircraft Sheet Metal Recruiters WG-10 and intermediate levels." That was at Hill Field. Well, we got quite a bit. Anything you want to add? EKA: There's stuff I forgot all about, then you see stuff in there that I don't remember happened. FTA: You got those two German friends that were writing to you telling you to come home and never answered back. Weganer, something? 41 EKA: Vernor. A lot of things I should have done and didn't. FTA: Like what? EKA: Answer those kid's letters. 42 Appendix Pill Box 1945. Just Outside of Bitche just before we made our attack on the 15th of March. It is a pill box behind us that we were in. A borage of artillery just came in, and the German planes just striked, so the battered pillbox looked pretty good to us. Ludwigsburg, Germany Bitche, France St. Lewis, France Bitche, France My Darling, the paper is not very good so I am sending the magazine with all the pictures. 43 44 Ludwigsburg, Germany Bitche, France St. Lewis, France 45 Bitche, France Bitche, France Bitche, France Ludwigsburg, Germany Bitche, France 46 47 Lt. Jamson our platoon Lt. and Sgt. Ingel Britson our platoon Sgt. Ira A. Salley, Carver Street Waterville Maine. Ludwigsburg, Germany Stuttgart, Germany This picture is not just a blur, it is just the view of Stuttgart. My Darling, this is a picture of us when we were pretty regal and as you can see it wouldn't hurt us to get close to a razor and also get about 2 inches cut off my hair. 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78